Prince William to leave the armed services(260 Posts)
I am a fan of the monarchy but this has just made me stop and think...
Hmmm – not going to a “full time royal” = part-time royal then. What's he doing with the rest of his time?
I'd be happy to give up my job to focus on royal work and charity duties if someone can tell me where to apply! Or am I just being mean and unreasonable that he can afford to?
He is a millionaire from his mother and grandmother's inheritance. He can do what he likes !
Maybe he is going to take extended paternity leave as so many on here advocate
I'm surprised he stuck at it for seven years. I can't fault him, most people in that position would do the same.
Career break to help raise George maybe? Perhaps he's going to be a sahd so Katherine can go back to work.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
I'm not a huge fan of the royals, but I know loads of people who have been in the armed forces through their 20s then left at around his age, so if it's good enough for the ordinary man it's perfectly reasonable that he might have had enough too.
He has huge inherited wealth at his disposal, so he can support himself.
LifeOfPo OP YDNBU! I'm not anti-royalist but some of the stuff they do / say is a bit eyebrow raising. Like when Kate said she wasn't going to have a Nanny. She's changed her mind now. Fair enough just don't try and play to the Media to be someone you are not. She would be one of many working
and I use that term loosely Mums who has to rely on Childcare/Nannies to fit around Work Commitments.
YABU for "I am a fan of the monarchy".
If I had a job flying helicopters in mountains, I'd love to stick at it.
But he does have the money so does not need to work. Lucky so and so.
Prince William is currently considering a number of options for public service, the palace added, with a further announcement to follow in due course
But he's not really going to be 'supporting himself' is he Treaclesoda? They're moving into a Royal palace, with staff and security presumably provided. I don't think they'll exactly be setting up direct debits for their utility bills.
Good point Misspixitrix!
He could help out at a foodbank, volunteer in a primary school, work with NEETS - and not just as a one off photo call but as a regular volunteer.
Good. It'll shut the "oh, he works really hard, just like normal people" and "Kate's just like any other Service wife" brigade up for a while.
Thankyou Yoni and precisely. Oh dear god can you imagine the Electric Bill? . Not in the least bit jealous <winces at the amount of rooms I would have to clean>
He should do some volunteering down the local charity shop.
It also says he's going to be working on this.
If it helps as many people as his father's charity, The Prince's Trust, that'll be a damned good thing.
I imagine he'd rather like to stay in the forces but it was only so something he could do while young, free and single. It's a case of fun's over, now you have to get on with your real job.
yoni you're right, he won't really be supporting himself, but on the other hand, I don't suppose he solely lives off his RAF salary at the moment either, so in that respect I don't see it as being all that different to how things are at the moment.
I'm not a fan, but I care so little about them that I can't get myself annoyed by them either, if that makes sense. I feel indifferent.
But you'd have a fleet of cleaners Misspixietrix!
Do they join the forces purely because they are then also allowed time off for "Royal Duties"?
He's done a bit in the past 7(?) years, & I doubt that it all fell on him time off/holiday allowance!
Well, if he's to be King, perhaps 30 is the age to start doing the job!
Well, the Queen is old, and Prince Philip is ill, so I suspect there will be a rebalancing of Royal duties. But that will surely be evolutionary, and it seems likely he'll take a growing role, and more would probably be incompatible with operational search and rescue deployment. I think we'll see a gradual change, which might be why there isn't a 'big bang' announcement just because of him leaving the Forces in readiness.
There are plenty people with the same sort of inherited wealth doing less work. But I like the idea of working images food bank.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
"There are plenty people with the same sort of inherited wealth doing less work."
But he's not living on his own inherited wealth, is he?
He has homes in Kensington Palace, at Sandringham, so he has the privileges of royal life for atm little "royal" work.
Maybe he's going to take a leaf out of his idle wife's book and do nothing.
""There are plenty people with the same sort of inherited wealth doing less work."
And if he was paying for everything himself, including upkeep of the houses he lives in and his security, then that would be absolutely fine. But when members of the Royal Family are not on the Civil List, that doesn't mean they don't get any public money. It just comes out of a differentl pot.
"Maybe he's going to take a leaf out of his idle wife's book and do nothing."
Wonder if they'll be the first to retire & hand over to the next generation?
BoozyBear - you forgot about Princess Anne and Prince Edward in your rant
@ Andrew being a twat - LOL!!
There wasn't really much point him having a 'proper' job - he was never there! Always off on some jaunt or other, attending the Olympics or Wimbledon or doing photo calls...
I often wondered whether other service personnel could get away with working as little as William did. Did he get unpaid leave?
Anyway - the idle rich eh?
Love the Jeremy kyle tinny comment!!!
How do we know? Glass of champs in front of escape to the country maybe??
I don't think he was even meeting the minimum flying hours with all the time he had off and he wasn't doing much for the Firm either.
He can work as a full time royal like Kate and do half a dozen public engagements over a week, every three months.
Should leave him plenty of time to help out at home with all the housework and childcare.
Mutley . Yoni never thought of that. Will they be making me sandwiches too. Just so I can go and have them in all the different rooms
no one has used for the last 35years just so they have a point of cleaning them
God knows how he was permitted to be a pilot in the first place as he has to wear glasses.
I think he is a bit of a curmudgeonly bugger.
It amazes me that people think him & Kate are the future of the monarchy tbh.
Seems the same old, same old to me!
Piss about part time in the military until you finally have to give something back for the privileged lifestyle.
Like foreign trips & saving wildlife in Africa
I was going to start this thread but I think my Republican tendencies might have come through in the OP and IWHBU..
I wonder if there was someone whose dream it was to be an RAF pilot who did not get in at the time - just so William could have his attempt at a job for a bit.
At least you could never accuse the wife of taking someone's job.
"At least you could never accuse the wife of taking someone's job."
To be fair - his job has been outsourced to a private firm by the government. American I believe, who are going to run the RAF search and rescue services...
I'm not sure that the British public, royalist or not, want the future King of England to be on the payroll of a private firm.
Obviously he has the option to return (I presume - or possibly his only option was to be made redundant by the Armed Forces) to another part of the RAF, but this was one of the few non-combatant areas of the RAF where he could "usefully" work. They won't let him fly in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria etc etc.
-that's me still laughing at onesleeps post.
Perhaps they should just get on with Royal life after school/uni, or do a job for 10 years or so with no royal duties?
All this "we're so ordinary & working like ordinary folk" is so sickening.
Happy to oblige, diddl.
A woman in her youth, with her health and a degree, what a waste of her life.
@ "At least you could never accuse the wife of taking someone's job."
1. He passed his pilots exams with flying colours.
2. Pilots are allowed to have corrected vision.
3. He didn't draw his military wage, there are lots of independantly wealthy forces personnel that don't.
4. He was only on a short service contract that was supposed to end after 3 years, he asked to extend.
5. He had no more 'leave' than every other service person, his Royal Duties were just that, Duties.
He did longer than me in the RAF!!
At least you could never accuse the wife of taking someone's job.
They can't win can they? Either they are lazy good for nothings or they have stolen a job from someone.
I'd rather they did a job. There was no reason for her not to, for years.
Leave them alone-there's not one of you would do otherwise in their position.They seem decent enough young people who are born into wealth and privilege they will do charity work and act as ambassadors for our country which is a hell of a lot more than can be said for some other non working couples.
Jealousy is a terrible thing. It could eat you alive.
Happy to leave them alone. The very minute they stop spending tax money.
I doubt very much many self respecting women are jealous of her.
I probably would live a life of idle luxury if I could-at my own expense, though!
Wannabe, I love that someone always pops up on this thread and claims the critics are just "jealous" but then at the same time I'm often told "you'd never want her life". I'd bloody love her life - and given she relentlessly pursued that life I'm guessing she wanted it too!
Actually I wouldn't. Having to constantly watch what I do and say. Wouldn't swap places for the world
Funny how people on benefits get a hard time for living off the state- even if they spend very day volunteering in a charity shape, while others.......
The cynical part of me thinks they only do charity stuff because it's expected of them as part of the deal of being in the privileged position of being a Royal.
If they had the wealth - but none of the Royal expectations, would they be as involved?
But maybe I'm being cynical?
Bitchy remarks from one woman about another woman are more often than not, a result of jealousy. In my experience.
"Wannabe, I love that someone always pops up on this thread and claims the critics are just "jealous" but then at the same time I'm often told "you'd never want her life". I'd bloody love her life - and given she relentlessly pursued that life I'm guessing she wanted it too!"
Stitching- you wouldn't be able to keep up with the relentless pressure of work.........24/7 they're on duty, you know-24/7
Do not like the monarchy, and sure as hell am not jealous. Neither am I surprised that Wills quit his job. Why wouldn't he?
I wish I knew where to find the info about how much revenue the Royal estate pays to the treasury each year, in comparison to how much it draws out. If I did I would link to it.
They are not on duty 24/7. Far from it.
Someone has to hand out a knighthood to the likes of Saville.
Wannabe there's been no bitchy remarks, just factual ones. And your experience, while obviously valid to you, may not be someone else's.
Oh, god. Having flashbacks from the threads last summer.. Not sure if I can be arsed to do a second round of it. I might just leave it to you, kim!
curlew - oh, I know, those constant holidays and all that ribbon cutting and talking. Relentless .
Toys, I think curlew was being facetious !
I'd love to but off to earn some money.
I always thought the Civil List was a swap, some King or Queen had been so badly advised and ripped off that the royal estates had got into irretrievable debt, so the government/parliament did a deal, the Crown Estate (which is HUGE) came under government control and the government paid an agreed income to the Royal Household. I've heard the income from the Crown Estate is considerably more than the Civil List, in which case I suspect us tax-payers have done rather well out of the deal.
Ah, you might well be right there, Stitching! Some people actually believe that, though.. Like REALLY.
The Royal Family 'costs' around £40 million per year. Last year the Crown Estates 'bought in' around £170 million.
Oh kim. Go cut a ribbon and shake a few hands, then hurry back! No need to look interested, remember!
…what's that? What? A real job? But why? Surely you can just take some money from the coffers?
So being a SAHM means you're the hardest working, most underappreciated and yet the most valuable section of society according to most threads on MN.
Unless you're Kate in which case you're an idle, lazy, good-for-nothing leech on society...
I think it's fine - really he can do more good encouraging people and raising money for good causes through his royal duties, and alongside Kate and little George. Search and rescue helicopter pilot must have been quite fun though, and good training for what lies ahead too I think.
Wonder if the Queen will make 64 years on the throne to be longest ever ruling monarch ? Will be interesting to see the changes when Charles becomes King, and Wills promoted to Prince of Wales - no offence Queenie
< Is there still a treason law ?! >
Apologies, my last post was figures from 2011/12.
I'd be interested to know what job Kate should have been doing before having her baby? She worked for a while for (I think) Jigsaw and her every step was dogged by Paparazzi.
I wouldn't want to go out to work every day knowing that a load of scummy photographers were waiting to trail me everywhere hoping a gust of wind causes a flash of my knickers or I fall flat on my face.
Sidge, she gave up work looooong before she got pg!
She was obviously out enough to have her picture taken. How long ago did she leave uni? A short term part time job in all that time? The York princesses manage to work. She wasn't royal and she did nothing. I actually find that level of idleness shameful. She's certainly no role model.
I've always had the impression that she didn't work as then she couldn't have been at William's beck & call.
Might be wrong, of course.
Stitching I understand she worked in the family business until her marriage, then has 'worked' well into late pregnancy with Royal duties (her new job!).
I'm no Hello reader though so coule be mistaken.
Lets be honest though, the York girls aren't of as much interest to the press as a potential future Queen. Surely the whole "topless photos" and prank phone calls to the hospital just go to show that some aspects of the press/media just will not leave her alone?
Isn't the civil list irrelevant in the case of Charles's family?
They were after her marriage. If she hadn't been so intent on clinging on she could quote easily have worked. The novelty would have worn off with the press. She was still out and about getting pictured, it wouldn't have made a difference if it was of her on her way to work, apart from giving her more self respect. She's had every opportunity - fantastic education, close family, reasonable looks, yet she's done nothing. I couldn't respect somebody for that. In a supposed 'modern monarchy' I'm amazed he's married someone like that. Even his upper class mother worked before marriage. She is just a leech.
If she'd have been working, the paparazzi interest wouldn't have stopped at the doors of her workplace. I don't see how she could possibly have done an ordinary job, when neither she nor the organisation would know if contacts were genuine clients or hacks looking for anything that could be splashed in a tabloid.
"I'm amazed he's married someone like that."
I'm not surprised that someone who could run when he crooked his finger appealed tbh.
Happy to leave them alone. The very minute they stop spending tax money.
No one would ever say that about people on benefits. None of our business etc.
I'm sure there are lots of jobs where she didn't need to be on the 'front line'. Come on, she had years.
Good point, diddl (we'll have to stop meeting like this).
How much did the security cost for the Wedding, jubilee, George's birth/christening etc? never mind the day to day costs?
I bet the £40m figure has limited costs in the list, would be interesting to see the list of costs.
The Royal Family 'costs' around £40 million per year. Last year the Crown Estates 'bought in' around £170 million.
Someone has to do the job, I don't mind the Royals taking it on, I do mind how much they cost the nation, and how much weight people like Charles have in Westminister, though.
The poor man lost his Mum as a boy, and if he wants to put his family first then good on him. I think they're a lovely couple and will never be left alone (by media or mumsnet!), so involvement and private family moments should be guarded closely.
"No one would ever say that about people on benefits"
Are you absolutely serious???????
People on benefits are Public Enemy Number One at the moment - are you seriously claiming that no one ever criticises their lifestyle or moans about "taxpayers money" Do you live under a rock?
Cute, this makes for interesting reading:
He won't be living off his savings or inheritance that's for sure.
Telegraph article for you CuteDesigns. HERE That is more up to date than the figures I posted above which I got from the Defence Intranet Public Spending Accounts
May have a bit more respect for him if he chose charities that really helped people ,particularly in our country, after all he is going to be our King one day. I don't think devoting his time to saving wild animals in other countries is the best use of his time.
Yes indeed-to help the animals in Africa-he's going to have to visit
a few times isn't he?
And they didn't even get a rescue dog!
May have a bit more respect for him if he chose charities that really helped people ,particularly in our country, after all he is going to be our King one day. I don't think devoting his time to saving wild animals in other countries is the best use of his time.
Especially while shooting the buggery out of half of Scotlands wildlife.
He is involved in charities here - the homeless charity, is it CentrePoint, for one. Kate is patron of a children's hospice charity in the east of England, etc.
I understand people not agreeing to the principle of a monarchy, though I disagree, but I cannot understand people launching venomous personal attacks on other people.
It doesn't seem that venomous here - for a notorious nest of vipers
Re. all the palaces and comparisons to people claiming benefits, I wonder what the Royal family's 'bedroom tax' bill would be?
Maybe Beatrice will start something up to save the Scottish wildlife.
I am surprised with no glasses on that William didn't confuse Beatrice with a stag at his wedding.
Prince William will owe the taxpayer £400,000 if he quits early as a helicopter pilot to take up Royal duties, the Sunday People has revealed .
But RAF chiefs have decided to write off the bill in the interests of the nation.
Search-and-rescue pilots like William have to agree to stay in service for six years if they are accepted for the £800,000 training course.
But the 30-year-old prince is set to leave when his current tour of duty at RAF Valley in Anglesey , North Wales, ends in September.
While sources have confirmed that a request for the outstanding £400,000 would be met, the RAF has decided not to make it.
A senior RAF source said: “The RAF view is that the education of the future King in military matters is hugely important to the nation.
“Prince William’s training has been money well-spent whatever the length of service.”
William, who is to become a dad when wife Kate, 30, gives birth in July, is believed to have decided after much personal anguish to move to full-time royal duties – although he may stay in RAF uniform for three years.
A Ministry of Defence source admitted it was rare for a pilot to leave early but demands for a payback depended on circumstances.
He said: “If it is somebody using the RAF training to go into a commercial flying career that is very different to somebody transferring to other public duties.”
That story was from quite a while ago
CuteDesigns....nice. Proud of that comment?
hester cute was referring to the hat!
Her hat was referred to as looking like antlers, she auctioned it off as it was infamous.
I love that when you express mild surprise at an able-bodied woman in her thirties never having had a job you are accused of being consumed by jealousy.
As for William, how much did it cost us to train him? Money well spent.
Butwilliseeyouagain it cost £800,000
Sorry, just saw someone answered my question! $400,000. If he had a mild passing interest in the RAF he should have rented Top Gun on DVD and saved us all a fortune.
X-posted! 800,000k, better and better.
"Save the animals! Not the ones I shoot for fun, obviously. But the other ones!" Would make a catchy bumper sticker.
I would have on my new shiny car, outside my heavily guarded but empty mansion...
'And people hate YOU for claiming a few thousand in benefits....'
I think you're all very mean-spirited. These are two people who didn't create the monarchy and didn't ask to be born into it. They're pleasant and hard-working (I really do think so!). I don't see why Kate wasn't allowed to work for her parents (my husband works jolly hard for his parents). Just because you can't see her going to work each day doesn't mean she wasn't. As for using her degree, how many jobs are available in art history? I read English. No jobs. If my dad had a company I'd be in it.
They probably wouldn't have done anything to get into the history books on their own. So bloody what? Kate loves her husband. She greets each day with a smile when I'd personally be tearing my hair out. She's a good daughter and mother. Plenty of women spend their twenties hoping their beloved will pop the question. She's Bridget Jones, for crying out loud! What were we expecting? Mother Theresa? When one considers other people in the public eye, I think we've got off very lightly - they're flying the flag for family values, at least, they're not addicted to anything that we know of and they seem to eat healthily and exercise. This is more than many of us are managing at the moment.
Why must we expend negative emotions on people who are only doing the best with what they've got? By all means, say the role is pointless and the funds should be redirected. But there's no need to criticise the people, especially when they are probably being pulled in several different directions at once. I suspect William would rather fly his helicopter than do whatever it is he's going to be doing.
I agree with Onesleeptillwembley. I was astounded William thought Kate was a good idea. She did nothing with her life after university so I think she's a terrible role model for young girls. Didn't one of Prince Charles' ex press officers spill the beans once and say he was very good at looking busy when in actual fact he has lots of time off? Can't remember who it was exactly. They do royal engagements in fits and bursts so it looks like they're busy with long periods of doing nothing in between. What a cushy job/life Kate landed herself.
A Flt Lt gets basic pay of £38k a year. He did not draw this wage (well he did, but it went straight into welfare funds) He was also on a short contract, designed specifically for him as he was only supposed to spend 3 years in the military, spending 1 year with each of the Services so he was better able to understand once he becomes the head of the military - his father did the same. British Military Personnel have respect for them for doing this.
He asked to stay on after what should have been the end of his RAF contract. In doing so he saved money that would have otherwise been wasted. Air Sea Rescue is about to be privatised and is going to cost the British Public a damn sight more that £800k - they won't be doing it for free. Prince William 'retiring' now is far less embarassing to the Government that "Prince William Made Redundant". Politics is behind this decision.
I have no issue with republicans slagging off the Royal Family. But if you are going to do so please ensure you have at least a little understanding of the situation.
" I suspect William would rather fly his helicopter than do whatever it is he's going to be doing."
More than likely.
Still, he could stand aside & have an RAF career...
I find it hard to feel sorry for them.
They'll never have to worry about anything for themselves or their children.
And in return, what do they have to do?
Gotta love sychophants!
fabergeegg how do you know she is a good daughter/mother?
Do you know her personally?
Or do you just swallow up all the nice controlled press releases and appearances?
No they didn't create the monarchy. But I don't see them doing anything to remedy it.
I mean in this day and age, with democracy and all that jazz how can you justify telling children 'We all deserve to be equal, you can be whatever you want to be....oh that. No you can't be that, you have to be born into that job'
And another thing...don't compare that woman to Bridget Jones! Jones is my hero! And I seriously doubt future queen of hearts has ever made blue (or any other kind of) soup.
LtEveDallas even if he is effectively made redundant, why not do something else? He must have seen this coming. I'm a little suspicious that he has a baby and almost immediately announces that he intends to spend the next year doing nothing.
That's interesting LtEveDallas.
Where did you get that info from?
I totally agree with you on all counts OP.
He could stick to a "proper job" for a good few more years yet. It is very disappointing
and a bit lazy
And come on, head of the military? So he'll be calling the strategic shots, will he? He won't just be wearing a chestful of medals while inspecting the troops in front of the assembled press?
"I was astounded William thought Kate was a good idea."
But she hung around, was always there & has never done anything contraversial!
And he's taking a year to decide what to do & be "eased into Royal duties"??
He's thirty years old FFS!
And Kate's had a number of years to be prepared, as well!!
Butwilliseeyouagain, The decision to privatise at least 2 of the ASR came last November. It has been fought ever since. Yes he could do something else, maybe he will. Maybe his father is going to abdicate his responsibilities and William is leading up to taking over.
Who knows. He has only just made the announcement that he is going to leave, give him a chance.
I've known for 4 years that my Service finishes next Aug, be buggered if I know what I'm going to do next. My DH retired at 41 in 2006 and hasn't gone back to work - so what?
I don't think she was a big love match for him. I think he tried to learn from his parents' mistakes so chose someone that was a friend, his age, someone not emotionally vulnerable etc. They met too young but she wanted to cling on and somehow managed it. It just would have been great to see her doing something with her life after university. It would also be great to see her getting stuck into something after she has her kids. She's so safe and is determined not to put a step wrong. I don't suppose bringing someone into the "firm" with a strong personality would have been a good idea though. I don't really care that much but I don't understand the adulation for them that a lot of people seem to have.
I'm assuming though LtEve that you and your husband are not living in unimaginable luxury on the taxpayer's dime.
There was even a Royal Historian on the news earlier saying public opinion of William could turn if they're not seen to be doing something and start being seen more in the role of celebrities. I agree.
The head of the military might not be important to you butwilliseeyou, but it is very important to those of us in the Military. Having someone there who actually understands, who is more than just a figurehead is very important.
But he IS just a figurehead LtEve, whether you like it or not. He will run the military to the extent that the queen runs the country, ie not at all.
...in your opinion, not mine, and I'm the one if actually effects, so...
And I'm more than happy to agree to disagree. But I think it's silly to call somebody the head of the military when they are not responsible for any major decisions whatsoever. That to me is the definition of figurehead. Obviously to you it isn't.
Don't be a dick.
Actually the head of the Army has the power of veto. I don't know about the other two services.
When Col Comdt of a Regiment I have seen first hand Prince Charles 'strongly disagree' with a decision. A decision that, strangely, was then reversed. It can be done, maybe not often, but it happens (and that decision would have had very significant repercussions for the Regt. The reversal was a good thing)
That's even better!
So we are actually awarding powers over our military to humans based on what bloodline they were born into now?
Prince William privately lobbied David Cameron not to privatise the Air Sea Rescue when they were working on the bid for the World Cup. He was worried about himself then, he wasn't bothered about the rapid and sudden early decommissioning of the Harriers.
There is a photo going round Fb asking people to like and share to say thanks to Prince Wiliam for serving. I won't be sharing, DH has spent more time away from home than William has spent serving. I would find it much easier to cope as a military wife with all the support Kate has too.
I wish them both well, but I don't sit here thinking they have a difficult life.
Ha! It is dickish of me but I have a thing about affects/effects.
Look, ultimately if PC had opposed the invasion of Iraq, for example, it would not have made any difference whatsoever. The invasion would still have gone ahead. Tony Blair would not have gone back to Dick Cheney and said 'Sorry it's all off, PC just won't sign on the dotted line.' In my opinion that makes him a figurehead.He doesn't make any decsions.
Well obviously. We are a democracy, we vote in our Government to make decisions like that. He is a figurehead to you, but to someone serving he is more than that.
The point was that the serving military would rather have someone who had actually served as the head of the military than someone who hadn't. Even the Queen was in the ATS.
William didnt have to join the services. He was never going to be allowed to actually 'serve' in the way his brother was. The fact that he did it and then the fact that he extended that service is respected.
Whoops sorry lteve, I thought that pilots had to have 20-20 vision. I will blame my dd for that misinformation.
It's me - the OP! Back after a hard day at work... Can someone tell me what happens if Prince Charles predeceases his mother? Does the throne pass to the eldest son still, in which case Andrew is in line followed by his daughters or has something changed in our constitution?
William would be next as he's of age and is the direct line. If William were to die as well it would go to Harry until George was of age.
No if Charles dies then William becomes next in line. For Andrew to become King, Charles, William, George and Harry would have to die.
Thank you for the quick responses. We have been talking about the departure from the services this afternoon at work. The split of opinion here on the thread pretty much reflected my colleagues' views.
Listening to Radio 4.
It was suggested he could just be Stay at Home Dad.
It's a valuable job.
What does it matter if William has or has not served?
He does not make any decisions regarding the services.
Look at how important it is in the US to have had a President who served - because they make the decisions.
William's just a figurehead.
I'll say one thing for the royals - they have the most incredible PR imaginable. They really do manage to pull the wool over the eyes of so many people it's staggering.
If the Republicans had the money to employ PR even half as good the monarchy would be history by now .
Though to be fair, Kim, look at what the last president that had served did with his power and forces. Scary.
stitching Maybe we should have a fundraiser?
They don't have to join the military, but I'm not sure what else they could do on order to be seen to be doing something tbh.
Just get a perfectly ordinary job like the rest of us do.
But no - it's the Royals so they have to join the military because it's expected.
Now he'll be expected to spend the rest of his life doing meeting and greeting, going round the world on PR visits and doing charity stuff.
It was said on Radio 4 that a part of the appeal was that William and Kate appeared normal - and the fact he was a pilot was good because it was a well respected job.
Then some sycophantic historian said he was being made redundant and would find it hard to get another job - yeah, right. Because no one's going to turn down a request from the Royal Family.
Still the less normal they appear - the less respect they might have and that's a good thing.
<Republican instincts might be showing>
Looking, join the Republic !
at him finding it hard to get another job - seriously???? I do love the sycophants .
If they all gave up claims on the throne and worked in B&Q they would earn my utmost respect and admiration
(Hell even if they pissed around all day enjoying their own money and not unearned positions of power and admiration I would be happy)
Already there Stitching
Helicopter Pilots have different standards to Pilots GetOrf, and actually, he may well have had 20/20 when he was enlisted, and it deteriorated later. As long as it can be corrected it's OK
He may not make decisions Kim, but he has experience. It means a lot to those of us that 'signed our lives away' . I promised to be loyal and fight for My Queen, her heirs and her successors. Knowing that I promised that to someone who actually knows what I am going through, knows what I have done and why I did it means far more.
When I look at government and the dicks that have been 'Armed Forces Minister'...Civvies that have no idea what it means to sit in an OP, or to be lying in a puddle on a muddy training area in the rain for 6 hours, or to eat boil in the bag rations (of one menu) constantly for 8 weeks, to have a shitty rifle that refuses to fire, or even to sit in a bar and reminisce about a guy we've lost. I'd rather have Charles, or William or preferably Harry on my side - whether he can do anything or not.
Curved ball here, Lt, would you want Andrew?
Personally I think you should be loyal to your country and fight for your country rather than that bunch of sycophants.
Loyalty to your country is more important than loyalty to the Royals.
I'm not as gen up on Andrew, because he had left the Services before I joined and I don't have any personal experience of him. But from what I remember he saw active service during the Falklands War, took and passed Marine Commando Selection (seriously hard and the course Edward failed), and served in various Naval posts for 12 years or so, so yes, I would accept him. I'm afraid I know very little about the Royal Navy though, so I'm not sure of his speciality or trade.
I have no time for the rest of them. I admire those Royals with military service.
Thing is though - you don't exactly have the choice not to accept them. You can't just say fuck it, you didn't fight so tough shit, I won't respect you. You've got no choice. They are the ones who are the figure heads of the Services.
They're the ones who are where they are - figureheads put on a pedestal for us all to admire. People who can do no wrong - and if they do wrong, then the PR spin machine will work hard in collabortion with the sycophantic BBC to put them back on that pedestal.
No hard questions. No justifying their role or position. We just have to accept. And then get them flung in our voice about how fucking good they are at doing charity stuff, being parents and just being so fucking fantastic that they get full page spreads in the papers.
This sycophancy makes me sick. If they were any other couple, we would not think how wonderful they are. But through accident of birth and through the Royal line, we are all supposed to worship them.
I'll just book my ticket for the tower now, shall I
I believe in the oath I swore Kim <shrugs>.
I... swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will, as in duty bound, honestly and faithfully defend Her Majesty, Her Heirs and Successors, in Person, Crown and Dignity against all enemies, and will observe and obey all orders of Her Majesty, Her Heirs and Successors, and of the generals and officers set over me. So help me God
It means a lot to me. I understand that other people wouldn't see it that way, but it was my choice and a choice I was glad to make. If you don't have to say one, why would it matter to you?
And as an athiest and a Republican, I'd have a real problem with that.
But I would defend my country, against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
Harry "I love shooting people! It's just like playstation!" ? LtEve? You are most welcome to him.
I think I'd have more of a problem with the God aspect of that oath than the royal part, tbh.
I agree Kim, the breathless sycophancy regularly has me throwing things at the tv - the media had a collective orgasm when <gasp> William drove his own child home from hospital . It's bloody ridiculous.
Good job you're not in the Army then Kim, so you don't have to
I understand what you are saying LtEve. DH really believes in the oath he swore too.
Despicable, I have a problem with both parts - have just joined the scout movement and have to make an oath to both god and queen. The god bit is about to be dropped but not the queen bit .
I was explaining to my 5 year old about the monarchy the other day and the fact that he would never be allowed to be king, even if he worked really hard, did amazing things, achieved loads, no matter what he did it wouldn't matter. He was pretty unimpressed. If he's 5 and he can see what a load of bollocks it is why can't everyone else?
I was in the Air Cadets but left because I couldn't stand all that marching.
But my Dad was in the services so I've seen my fair share of commissions from the Queen.
But I would want to be accepted into the Forces without worrying about my athiest / Republican views - or would it be like the US army and "Don't ask, don't tell".
That was my point earlier, Kim, we are expected to admire them
How the hell can you admire a 30 odd year old who has by choice never done any real work, just clung into someone else. I have no respect or, indeed, admiration for that sort of person, and never will have.
And it's just so sycophantic. All love and warmth for William and Kate. A media full of positive stories, exclusive pictures - you couldn't make it up.
People laugh when they see the North Korea media praising their leader on TV. Who are we to criticise when we do the same with these two?
(I'm sure they are nice people. Who knows? )
There is an Atheist version DespicableWee, and versions for other faiths. I'm CofE so that's the version I said in 1990
I bet you still have to say that crap about the Royals.
I am being somewhat facetious. But I just find the whole thing unutterably weird. Why would you pledge your life to defend somebody solely because the happen to be born to a particular family? Why do you feel somebody should have influence over military policy due to an accident of birth?
so they are about to move into Kensington Palace with that shall be fully staffed
though they were never going to have this and now he is not bothering to even pretend he is working
so much for living like a normal couple then
I'm not Prince William's biggest fan, but no-one can say he hasn't done any "real work". By saying that not only are you disrespecting and disregarding the work he has done as a Sea King Pilot, but it also implies that the other Air Sea Rescue workers don't do any 'real work' either.
William did a tour of duty in the Falkland Islands. That's not a little holiday, the Forces Personell who are in detatchement down there work damn hard!
That was more clever PR Freudian - they were no more likely to live like a normal couple than i am to fly to the moon. More clever PR.
Littlemiss I specifically meant his idle wife. Hence the clinging on comment.
Er, littlemiss, how on earth do you deduce that saying William has not done any real work is disrespectful to the other air sea rescue pilots???
It doesn't imply anything about them at all!
William's done loads of good work in the Forces. It's a bit of a shame he has to give it up as it was a respected position. I'm sure he could do more good work in the military without having to go "all Royal" at such a young age.
He's got a good degree, is intelligent and has military experience.
Stitching, because if you're saying one Air Sea Rescue pilot has never done any 'real work' then how are the other Air Sea Rescue pilots, who are doing exactly the same job, doing any 'real work'?
One more point and I must go and do something constructive!
My point about Prince Harry (and yes I was being a dick - again) is that he is by all accounts a fun, charming, not particularly bright kid who showed extremely poor judgement in saying he enjoyed war because it was like playing playstation. I don't see how he is deserving of blind devotion and adulation simply because he is not the son of an accounts clerk.
Now I really must go and start my day. My house looks like a warzone.
Even the BBC's greatest sycophant, Nicholas Witchell, thinks William needs to do something.
So it must be serious
i certainly respect Air Sea Rescue workers
i do not respect what the royal family stand for and i am not foolish enough to believe that he puts in anywhere near the same hours as others or treated like normal people
totally agree StitchingMoss they have a fantastic pr team behind them
He doesn't get blind devotion Butwilliseeyou. He is treated like any other Army Officer. If he was shit he'd know it, as would his peers and superiors. The boys wouldn't let him get away with it.
What he is, is a Round peg in a round hole. The Army was exactly the right fit for him. He smashed his pilots exams and his Troop Leaders. He is great on the ground as a dismounted Recce officer and would rather be in the dirt with his boys than at a desk.
If 'they' will let him, he could be a career soldier easily.
For Andrew to become King, Charles, William, George and Harry would have to die
And thank fuck for that.
But he can't - because he's a Royal and that's not going to happen.
If he had been an ordinary person, he could have achieved that. But you can't have it all if you're Royal.
The Royals want all the privilege and public adoration. That comes at a personal price - and Harry and William are paying for it with their careers.
I don't have any issue with William leaving the army- as long as he does something worthwhile to benefit the most vulnerable, here in the UK.
His wife on the other hand is an embarrassment to educated women everywhere and needs a good dose of reality.
TBH I'm not so sure Kim. The RF have a good line of succession right now thatks to the long reign of the Queen, so there is every chance they will let him. If Charles doesn't abdicate his duty then their is no real reason for the 'spare' to do anything other than what he loves.
I don't know. He is progressing well and the reports I have heard have all been sound, so anything is possible.
16 years is a 'good' career for an officer (and the average served). If he progresses he could serve up until he is age 55, although that is rare. Whether he will or not, who knows, it's probably not up to him, sadly. I'd like him to do at least 12, preferably 16. He could be a major pushing Lt Col by then. An actual decision maker - now that would be interesting.
I do hope they're not reading this! Although, to be fair, they're probably used to dealing with this sort of criticism by now...
If the monarchy was democratically abolished tomorrow, I wouldn't complain. The whole concept is outdated. However, as a family, they have been born with this huge responsibility. I think it's impressive that they seem to take it so seriously.
Prince Charles has a thing about DUTY and I think he's right. Which of us would swap places with them, really? It's not like they have a choice in the matter, and all that money doesn't come without hefty strings attached. Okay, so they don't worry about paying the bills at the end of the month (like me) but they have all sorts of other pressures I can barely begin to imagine. And everything they do is watched and commented on by the likes of us.
If I had their money, their cultural clout and huge power in the worldwide media, I'd like to think I could use it as responsibly as they are. Suggestions that they volunteer in soup kitchens are just stupid - how would that benefit anybody? They are right to think about how best they can help the greatest number of people.
Which of us would honestly swap places with them? Having thought it through, I would love to have their opportunities to change the world, but still think I am happier with my sons growing up in relative poverty in a rough area.
Diana had the right idea - working with AIDs victims and her landmine work. She knew she would be photographed and she sent out some very powerful images which did a lot of good.
William seems quite wet and spoiled. He has a lot of goodwill because of his mother. One day though, especially since his poor marriage choice, there will be a backlash. He could actually be the end of the monarchy.
Poor marriage choice?? Who did you want him to marry?
I don't read the Mail or Hello etc. so my perception is that he married a girl he fell in love with at university. What on earth is wrong with that?
And what on earth is wrong with her? She looks good (this is very important), she clearly loves him, she has a supportive family who can guide her through the minefield of being a total while still remaining relatively normal, she is bright, educated, has a social conscience... and if the heir to the throne had fallen in love with you, would you have had the courage and the honesty to deal with it the way she has done?
I agree he could be the end of the monarchy, I think the backlash will start when the Queen dies as I am sure she will not step aside
I would swap right now, green! And then help to abolish the monarchy before retiring young and rich. Mwahahahahahahaaa <evil laugh>
Ok, clearly time for bed now..
I mean he gets blind devotion in that you pledge to defend him with your life because he is born to the royal family.
I hope it's something that he wants to give up,that he is not being forced into that. I do wonder if it's a sign for plans of an imminent larger scale war with forced conscription that his family don't want him to get caught up in.
I wonder if Kate was instructed not to work given the shambles of Edward & Sophie's employment history.
We all know LtEve had Harry not been a Royal it is highly unlikely he would have got to Sandhurst. He hasn't got the required amount of UCAS points for a start.
"William seems quite wet and spoiled"
I think that also-which is why I have this idea of Kate "coming good" as she hung around & went running.
And all this-"oh poor me, I'm going to be King & it's such a burden-but it's my duty that I
am entitled to must fulfill or I'll let everyone down"
I don't think that W&K will be as astounding as everyone thinks.
Harry did have the qualifications for Sandhurst - he got 2 A levels and 11 GCSE's. The requirement is 7 GCSES and 2 A-levels.
It isn't Frankel it's 270 UCAS points, it used to be 180! Even if you join as a Soldier and want to transfer over to be an Officer later you still need those 270 UCAS points.
As a side issue, how thick and/or disengaged would you have to be to get a B and a D at A level at Eton?
Don't worry - I'm sure some Army MNer will be along to explain why Harry got into Sandhurst.
Apparently William will be having a "gap year" - maybe he could just be a parent and take George on days out, playgroups etc?
We all know LtEve had Harry not been a Royal it is highly unlikely he would have got to Sandhurst
Not true Littlemiss. He was borderline, as are numerous other potential officers. He did fantastically well at Pre-RCB/RCB and that secured his place.
Lots of POTs get to RMAS that way, and then have to prove themselves. He proved himself in spades, and whilst they considered he would not have been able to join a 'Techincal' Corps or Trade, he was eminently suited to a Combat Arm, which is what he joined.
He then did his training with AAC, and came top in many of his technical exams, so again proved his knockers wrong.
The Army would lose a lot of potentially excellent fighting men and women if they relied solely on examinations and qualifications. The very best Officer I know, the 'only' one that I would follow blindly into battle hasn't a formal qualification to his name, but his tactical knowledge, experience and ability is quite simply outstanding.
Conversely, the worst officer I ever knew had a bundle of completely useless examinations and a degree in something like "Ancient French" He was a technical officer, a liability and quite simply a danger to everyone! Thankfully he was found out before he could do any damge
It's like the Wicked Witch. Just say the right thing and along she comes
Sorry, LtEveDallas I just predicted you'd come along and say that. It happens on these threads whenever Harry's qualifications are mentioned
Oh, come in. Sandhurst wouldn't have looked at an ordinaryperson with a B and a D!
Anyone else remember the TV series about those going through Sandhurst? One of the officer trainees was an ex-electrician with minimum qualifications. He did really well. It's not just the well connected who are selected on personal qualities, rather than educational level (and it works the other way round too, with graduates who are rejected).
littlemiss, you're missing the point entirely - what nonsense. No one is claiming that air sea rescue pilots don't work bloody hard but none of the rest of them get to piss off whenever they fancy, use their helicopters to ferry their brother to a stag do or work a massively reduced number of hours just because they're a prince.
It's not a tricky argument to follow.
Thank you Edith, nice to hear some sense!
I just predicted you'd come along and say that Well why wouldn't I, I mean, its the truth, why wouldn't you want to hear the truth?
I get being a Republican, I get that you don't like the idea of the Royal Family, but when smoke and mirrors, lies and rumours have to be used to bolster your opinion, it denegrates that opinion.
I'm being polite and factual, it's easier that way.
none of the rest of them get to piss off whenever they fancy
He gets 38 working days leave a year, the same as the rest of the military. Although as he is a shift worker it may well be that he works a 4 days on, 4 days off, 4 nights on schedule which would mean he has 'more' leave on paper, but not when it is worked out pro-rata - I'm not entirely sure how the ASR work it out.
An 18yo straight out of school going into Sandhurst is incredibly rare, you know that LtEve. If my 18yo when to the Army Careers Office tomorrow with a B in Art and a D in Geography he would be told he does not meet the entry requirements. He wouldn't even get an interview. That is factual! There is a distinct difference between having the minimum entry requirements and not meeting them at all!
Stitching I agree with you about the fact he gets to piss off when he likes.
An 18yo straight out of school going into Sandhurst is incredibly rare
Rare as to be impossible littlemiss. He was 21.
"One of the officer trainees was an ex-electrician with minimum qualifications."
I think there might be a bit of a difference between a mature student with life experience being let in with less than the required qualifications, and an 18 year old, who despite being at Eton with all the opportunities that school provides still only managed a B and a D at A level...........!
and an 18 year old
Again, 21 year old.
Graduates make up 84% of the Sandhurst intake. Non-graduates the rest.
The ex sparky Edith refers to was 25.
Sorry 21 year old.
And of those non graduates, what is the minimum entry requirement?
35 ALIS points (34 for SCEs) from 7 GCSE/SCE subjects, with a minimum grade C/2 in English language, maths and either a science or a foreign language; plus 240 UCAS Tariff points from at least two A level passes grades A-E or SCE Higher grades A-D.
reading the oath of allegiance the LtEve posted bought back marvellous memories, just love the way civvies post on here when they haven't got a clue what they're on about!
So 160 UCAS points wouldn't do then?
Or is that something else "civilians" can't understand?
Maybe he has special stealth UCAS points that civvies can't see?
Prince Harry joined in 2006, when minimum requirement was 140 UCAS points.
Curlew the entry requirement to get to Sandhurst is 270 UCAS points. If you want to join as a soldier and transfer to be an officer you still need those 270 UCAS points according to the Colonel who ran the potential officer insight day DS1 recently went on.
It is naive to think the rules aren't bent and they goalposts aren't widened for them. They aren't like us. Harry did not have to prove his worth of a place at Sandhurst. He might be a good officer now, but he is lucky because he was given the chane. How many ordinary people aren't given the chance despite having the entry requirements? Hundreds! They could have been as good, if not better, but their Granny is not the right person!
The UCAS requirement, as posted by grovel, taken direct from the Army's website is 240 points.
Well the Colonel told DS1 270 Frankel.
I wonder if the Colonel misspoke - that's bad. It's 240 minimum for all Services for officers (and for certain roles, higher).
It was 140 in 2006, rising to 180 in 2008, and rose again to 240 (not sure when).
Maybe Edith. DS1 is asleep so I can't ask him, but he definitely said he needed 270 when he got A2 results. He got 410, including an AS, so was well over.
Curlew He clearly inherited the intellect of his Father who managed the stunning feat of grades B and C at A level despite his expensive education. He then managed to gain entrance to Cambridge w/ these results sticking two fingers up at students who were told to achieve AAA or no dice.
BTW Versailles generates more tourist income than our royal attractions. You do not need a functioning 'living' RF to make money from royal tourist attractions. Alton Towers generates more £££ too.
To be fair, when Charles got into Cambridge, being posh and/or knowing the right people was a legitimate entry requirement.........
I believe this year Legoland Windsor ranked much higher than Windsor castle in tourism revenue.
Replace the fuckers with lego, we'll be quids in!
I'm not going to comment on entry requirements etc. as I am just a dumb civvie and therefore understand nothing of it but...
Can I just say that oath you guys take make me really nervous? I mean it reads like you are her personal body guards?
No mention I could see of allegiance to the UK.
Can they just use the army to bitch slap us if they ever (Please Universe) are democratically removed
When did Anne serve in the forces then? She regularly sports her honorary rear admiral uniform. Or maybe seeing as she is famous for 'recycling' clothing she borrowed them from a serving relative?
How would she have credibility if she has not served? I have heard MNers talk of how proud their OH's are at having her as their CO. Would they follow her blindly into battle?
As to her 'work ethic' the 300-500 engagements she performs each year are usually doubled/tripled/quadrupled per day. So divide the total engagements by amounts of days spent upon and she actually only works to earn her civil list payments for about 1/3 of a year. Not that hardworking. But then the royals always did have the most tenuous grasp on the meaning of true hard work in the real world.
Yes that oath is the most bizarre thing. Dated and not reassuring. Might make some feel proud to take it but to be honest if you make an occasion solemn enough and full of pageantry, you could recite 'Have you seen the Muffin Man' and feel stirred by the occasion.
Same as Prince Edward, mignoette. He is seen in military uniform, the only serving he has done is a third of the training required for the Marines!
I like Princess Anne's DH, Tim Laurence. He actually helped my family and I so I have a bit of respect for him.
littlemiss I'm intrigued. We never see anything of Princess Anne's husband. How did he help your famy?
Aargh. Family, even.
Aargh. Family, even.
Tim Lawrence retired from the Navy in 2010. He was pretty visible (to Forces families) in his last post, when he was trying to kick the Defence Estate into shape (huge direct impact on all those in Forces accommodation). Before that he had a full and varied Naval career.
mignonette posted her calculations about Princess Anne on another thread: demonstrating that it was 199 days to conduct the actual engagements themselves (not allowing for travel or preparation time). This is more than say, teachers (195 days) and not far off the normal working year (225 days when you have deducted weekends and holiday allowance), and doesn't include other demands on her time such as IOC role.
Very bad form to reference another thread Edith. Anyway I stand by them. If anne wants to do all her prep work herself, dispense w/ the ladies in waiting, the PS's, the limousines and chauffeurs, the train carriages all to herself, the helicopters and private luxurious travel arrangements, then and only then will she be worthy of being deemed hard working. She is not hard working.
Teachers have to do all their prep themselves. They drive themselves to work. They have to deal with the crappy commute. They even have to hold their own bag, thank you flowers and briefing notes. They are subjected to rigorous peer, managerial and governmental review. Anne is not. We cannot remove her. We are stuck with them.
Edith you have been suckered. Poor you.
I also stated that I had generously over estimated the actual engagements per day Edith. If i actually based it upon the usual four or more per day she does then her yearly working days dramatically decline. Go figure.
My apologies - I have referenced, even linked, simultaneous threads where the same point is made numerous times in the past without adverse comment and so had no idea that when pertinent it was bad form.
Her travel may be comfier, but that does not reduce the time. And she may indeed use resources complied by others (hardly unique).
It is interesting to see how you are now disavowing your earlier assertion of how many days. For even if she did only 1 hour background reading and speech delivery preparation per engagement, the amount of working time would increase vastly.
I'm not disavowing. I am actually saying that if i used a less conservative figure because on many days she does 5/6 engagements and that would significantly bring down her working days per year. i was actually being 'generous' to her. She actually works less than 75 days per year if you apply the 5/day calculation.
Sorry but if you truly believe anne works as hard as normal working people of this country you are absolutely deluded. She'd never cope w/ my DH's work load/ She'd never cope w/ mine. We all do preparation. That is nothing special. She has it all laid out on a plate. Do you truly believe she does her own research/trawls the internet/reference librairies like the rest of us do? No it is all prepared in bullet point for her to read. it takes her far less time. And to be honest w/ the dilettante life of luxury they all lead, I bloody well expect them to be well briefed because they have plenty of time to be (even though they often are not or at least have trouble retaining real life information).
And helicopter travel does cut time. That is the point of it. Otherwise why have HEMS? So do private trains/services where you are the only one on/where you do not have to walk/bus/drive to the station then wait on the platform then walk/bus/tube at the other end. A private door to door chauffeur cuts time. If i had a private chaffeur w/ security escort I could do all my DV's in a fraction of the time.
I cannot believe you truly think her travel time is the same as an ordinary Joe's. Really?
Oh yes, hard working
Someone organises her day. Someone tells her what to do step by step. Someone takes her there. She does something a trained monkey could do (cheer up hospital wards, cut ribbons)
Lets not forget all that hard work at home everyone else does!
Someone fills her kitchen, someone cooks for her. Someone else cleans, pays her bills, looks after and raises her children, organises any social, charity events. Micro manages any occasion she may have to leave the house. Does her makeup, washes her hair...
I could go on. But I have just realised that my rant about Princess Anne ended up being about Kate, the queen etc.
Kate's job is to look good judging by the pictures in the papers this morning.
Onesleep we were having problems with our housing. The RAF families federation went to him as he was chief executive of defence estates. He had it sorted and we had our new house ready within 9 weeks. We had been fighting for well over a year by that point.
I POsted saying FYI LtEve I didn't get your post deleted for calling me a dick. In fact I found it quite funny. That post was then itself deleted. I don't know why. Can I call myself a dick? I'm a dick! I'm a dick! <waits>
But . LtEve has actually made me change my mind on another matter because of her reasoned debate. I won't change my mind on this one though .
This is an interesting debate. I'm not actually a republican, nor am I a royallist.
I find the whole miltary thing fascinating because I would never join the army. Interesting to get the other side of the story even though I wind people up a bit
How funny Butwilliseeyou . I can be a dick sometimes too. I'm glad you didn't take offence, I've enjoyed debating with you.
Mignonette, don't worry, I get it. I have no issue with Republicans, not at all. I don't like slagging people off (no matter who they are) for the sake of it, but I quite understand those people that wish we didn't have a Royal Family. My 'Royalist' tendencies are almost completely confined to those serving or who have served - I have no time for 'hangers-on'. The only time I get pissed off is over the smoke and mirrors stuff, but I reckon I can hold my own there
Oh you do hold your own LtEve. I do admire you from your posts which reflect your unassuming certainty about what you do and what you believe in. We may not share the same views but I do respect your fair and never rude defence of them and hope to be that way one day .
I've enjoyed debating with you too! Obviously this is one of things few people are going to chance their minds on. Oddly enough I am one of life's fence sitters usually although I like to choose a side in a debate for dramatic effect.
As said above one thing I am adamant on is that I would never join the army in a million years, so find it fascinating to debate with somebody who would actually give their life (literally if it came to that) for it. MN is great that way because you can hardly say to someone you meet at a party "You're in the army? But WHY?"
oh trust me, there have been threads on here that have made me go FUCKOFFFUCKOFFFUCKOFF, both in my head and on screen. Thankfully few and far between! Although the day I was called a baby killer that shouldn't be a mother or on MN was one that was hard to beat...
I kind of joined the Army by accident, it was something I wanted to do through my teens, but when I left school and got a job it went on the back boiler. I then had a horrible boss that sacked me, unfairly, to give his daughter a job. At that point I stamped my feet and said "right, that's it, I'm not going to work hard to make my boss richer" Public Service it was, and the Army came to the front again.
Although I have to admit, I was only signing for 5 years. But 23 years on.... Numbers were never my strong point.
Ouch LtEve that was bloody harsh. I've been told i am personally and morally responsible for the historical atrocities committed by the MH services because I work for them. I think yours trumps mine though for horridness.
People who serve in the Forces do deserve our respect because of the job they do and they have earnt that respect. I grew up with a Forces background and have family who serve so do understand a bit about it.
<Unlike people who expect respect because of accident of birth>
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