Wibu to send him a card in prison?(81 Posts)
Obviously there's a massive back story but ill just attempt to give enough info to inform your opinion.
Ex has just been remanded in custody to await trial. He's in for smashing the window on my new single mum house and 4 other charges relating to incidents that night.
Dd is 19 mo and has been having soaridic contact (2hrs a week at a centre) since we split. I am absolutely certain that she enjoys seeing him as she always points the way when we get off the bus and has started to cry when it's time to go.
It has been suggested that I 'help' dd make a card for him and send it to him with a photo.
IF, IF, IF I were to do this my terms would be that someone else 'help' her with the card AND write on the envelope (because its bloody well not from me!) and I will see to it that a photo goes in and it gets posted.
This is basically what happened for Father's Day except I sent her to contact with it.
So please either flame me for not wanting to do it (because he will think its from me?) or give me something to defend my decision with.
Soaradic is clearly not a word. Sporadic. And 2hrs is what it's is supposed to be actually he has attended just over half (and been late for the rest )
Who suggested it, why and how long is he likely to be in prison.
Personally I would dream of doing it. Can't think of an acceptable reason at the moment though.
Duh! Sorry, yes it's for his birthday.
YABU to even think about making him a card - for whatever reason.
Whoever suggested this to you, don't bother explaining your reasons why you won't be doing this, or even engaging in any conversation with them. They're clearly beyond all rational discussion.
Honestly - I wouldn't do it. I wonder if he would help your daughter make one for mothers day etc. I highly doubt it. Maybe he should have thought about that before he put a brick through your window
Bollocks. I wouldn't dream.
That's kind the problem, I can't quite quantify why I'm so uncomfortable about it beyond I feel like he will think its from me since she's not old enough to request to do it
My mums argument is if she could ask and knew it was his birthday she would want to do it and in years to come I should be able to say I facilitated that (the 4hr round trip to the contact centre not being enough to prove it have facilitated co tact with him)
That helps! Yes, for his birthday I think that's fine.
He's in prison for smashing the window on your new house. Where was his DD at the time?
And no, would I hell be involved at all in sending him a card. Which cheeky fucker suggested this to you?
It's not up to you or your toddler to maintain contact! In the circumstances you describe I dont understand why you would even be thinking about it.
Has it been suggested by some kind of Family services OP? Personally I would do it if the child were older....but she is so young that it will only benefit your ex...not your DD.
When she's 4 or 5 and he has proved himself sensible then he might get a card yes?
In your position, I'd not send one. He can have the position of father when he shows he's capable of being one.
I don't think he deserves it. And a 19 month old is not going to appreciate any "significance" it has. Whomever suggested this to you is clearly trying to look out for your violent exDP.
Once he's a free man, let him make the effort with his daughter. You focus on her - not him!
Hope you are left in peace in your new home, OP - sorry you have had to experience a clearly very disturbing incident.
would your mum help her make a card? If so, I think take her up on the offer.
Dont bother. When dd is old enough to want to make him a card, she can do it.
Don't do it for the very simple reason that it will be used by the defence to say you are making contact and he isn't etc. It will make it look like all is forgiven or you want to rekindle.
What a relief!
Yes if she was older and she had asked I would facilitate her doing it ( although I can't promise I would be pointing out to her when his birthday was) but at this age surely he would just interpret that as being from me
No, I really wouldn't bother.
I wonder what the backstory is?
From the window smashing incident, I'll guess he's a violent aggressive bully and you've finally seen the light.
I'll also take a punt and say that your mums apologist/condoning attitude probably has something to do with why you've put up with him for so long?
So he smashed the window of his daughter's house too, yes?
Did he know for definite her bed wasn't beneath it/he might have sent broken glass into her toys/cot/playpen?
No I wouldn't send him a card 'from' your daughter; unfortunately it sounds as if he has her best interests nowhere near his heart, so bugger that.
And tell your mum to keep her nose out!
Fuck that, what a ridiculous idea.
Babies can't make cards anyway because they're babies.
It would be different if the child was old enough to ask to make one and needed some help.
Stay well out of it and tell your Mum to do the same.
why the hell would YOUR mum suggest this!? WTAF? No do not do this. Sending out mixed messages to someone who would think nothing of committing the crime he has is utterly ridiculous
New single mum house = the house I moved to when I left him.
Brilliant point about the defence using it against me, thank you.
I wonder if they could still do this if it was probably my mums writing on the envelope?
If you really want the back story search my username for my previous posts (although they only go up to right after the split and my previous name was known to him and obvious to anyone who knows me)
I'm so glad to hear I'm not just blinded by my feelings
Honestly, if it was me I would be packing bags and not looking back. I know sometimes that is easier said than done but I have done it and looking back (now married to a wonderful man who loves my son as his own) I and my son were better off for it. I don't give a shit that my ex never got to know his bio-son, he wasn't my priority.
No-& I wouldn't want him near my daughter, either tbh.
No, I really wouldn't! The argument from your mum us skewed. I'm sure your dd would have asked him not to smash her window if she was able to.
If it was me I'd do as little as possible to facilitate contact.
Let the fucker rot in hell, if he wanted a birthday card from his DD he shouldnt have been so abusive to her mother.
Footface makes a good point. Your DD might not be so keen to send him a card if she had been aware of the abuse and the attack on your home. Tell your mother to mind her own sodding business and that if she sends one from DD anyway then that will be the last time she sees you or your DD.
Nope, would not do it. Screw him. If your dd grows up and SHE wants to that is different.
I feel the same way about any card to an ex from a child, if the child does it on their own fine. Otherwise, it is from the adult who organized it.
mmm op let him work his way up to you and dd by changing and being a good dad.
not for you to reach down to him.
I wouldn't bother. Let him prove how important DD is on her birthday and every other day come to that. Let him get out of jail and start putting food on the table for her. All you have to do is facilitate contact and keep things civil.
bogeyface that would be horribly cruel, using DD to control OP's mother like that. Cruel to DD I mean, as much as the grandmother. Babies shouldn't be pawns to use to make us feel powerful and let us act like bullies.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
No way. It wouldn't benefit your daughter so forget it.
Sorry for all the hassle you've had with him.
He will have a lot of time on his hands to sit and brood on things. The last thing you want is for him to have a card that he can begin building a fantasy around. It sounds very dangerous to me. When he realises that you don't want to get back with him he will think you sent it to be funny or to play games with him.
If your dd came to you in 20yrs with abusive ex in prison over an attack on her house, would you be telling her to send him a birthday card from her daughter? Thought not. Your priority is her, if it helps her then do it, otherwise don't. I would try to have as little contact as you can get away with.
I don't think cutting contact with someone who goes behind your back (hypothetically) in a matter this serious would be cruel at all, it would be in the best interest of both mother and child!
Your mum should be thinking about YOUR happiness and wellbeing not some aggressive idiot
Your mum is living in cloud cuckoo land - its gone beyond being able to play happy families.
If SHE wants to do it, that's one thing, and in fact it's good that she is not doing this behind your back. But why on earth is your own mother not on YOUR side in all this, urging you never to have anything else to do with him again? I could understand if it was HIS mum.
bogeyface that would be horribly cruel, using DD to control OP's mother like that. Cruel to DD I mean, as much as the grandmother. Babies shouldn't be pawns to use to make us feel powerful and let us act like bullies.
You misunderstand me. I am not suggesting she use her DD as a weapon against her mother, but gives her mother one warning that she is not to try and facilitate a relationship with an abusive man on behalf of the OPs DD without the OPs consent. I just have a feeling that if the OP doesnt send this card then her mother might. I would not tolerate having someone like that in my or my childs life. I would cut her out, most definitely.
She is at best someone who hasnt thought through the potential consequences (such as affecting the upcoming court case and any restraining orders) and at worst an abuse apologist.
And lizzy makes a good point about the fact that he could spend hours brooding over this card and misinterpreting it and making things 100 times worse than they already are.
Would you want to be in the OPs house when he turns up thinking she has forgiven him and then finds out that nothing has changed? Really?!
If his family were close to your dd and they had asked your permission to do it with her, then I'd say you should let them. But I don't think it's fair that you're getting this sort of pressure from your own Mum.
I also think that despite the bloke being a complete cunt, you should continue to do your best to facilitate your dds relationship with him in the future. But when she's two years old and he's in prison for smashing the windows of her home, you have absolutely no reason to even consider sorting out a nice card and picture for him.
Is it worth pointing out to your mum that violence towards your/your home is also abusive to your DD?
And fuck him. He doesn't deserve a goddamn thing.
I don't think anyone should be sending the abusive twunt anything.
Your mum needs a wakeup call.
In your circumstances you are the victim. So there should be someone you can speak to about whether or not contact should be maintained on behalf of his dd. As the offence was committed against you as the child's mother, especially if dd was in the house at the time you may find ex is subject to child protection processes. In which case it's best to speak to victim liaison/probation officer or whoever your contact with the case is and explain that you are not happy for dd to be in contact with her father at the present time and explain why. They will be able to point you in the right direction to put your mind at rest.
I was told that there were rules about what you can send from children into a prison, it may be that you couldn't send it anyway, especially the photo.
I wouldn't make any contact with him right now if I was you, my ex is currently being investigated by the police and I have been advised not to make any contact on behalf of the children because it can always be turned around as being contact from me.
I honestly can't believe your mother would want him in you or your dd's life. You'd think she'd be dancing a jig that he's in prison.
Don't send the card and don't allow your mum to send one either.
He's on rename guys. Awaiting trial.
Out of interest why was bail refused?
Babies can't send cards. If you do this, it is you sending the card.
When she is old enough she can send a card, or ask to write her name in a card.
You are doing what is required in terms of facilitating the maintaining of contact between your DD and her father, and presuambly you will continue to do that.
The making of cards on behalf of a baby is something people do within relationships so that they, the adult parents, can go 'aaah' and enjoy the baby together. It is about the relationship between the adults as parents.
Your Mum is falling for some sentimental fantasy or something. Have nothing to do with it.
Especially as it would clearly give a signal that you are in 'sentimental, aaah' type contact with this man. While the defence are still making a case.
This is nothing to do with your mum - tell her to back off.
Screw I was wondering why he was on remand.
That is unusual for smashing a window. I think there is fare more to this than the OP is saying (not critcising her at all, she doesnt have to share if she doesnt want to), but if her mother knows the full facts then that makes it even worse.
It's quite unusual to refuse bail.
Its usually people who are potentially a danger to others that are kept on remand isnt it?
Makes me think that if there is something far bigger than a broken window (and the OP alluded to the fact that it is) then the mother is being even more unhelpful. I would move heaven and earth to protect my child and grandchild from that, not push my child to engage further!
However......perhaps the mother is a bit "head in the sand" and would rather think that it has all been blown up out of proportion than accept what her DD went through.
He is remanded for failure to appear at the original trial date and because 2 of the 5 total charges are fairly serious, crown court serious.
I definitely won't be doing it, some great reasons above and I will refuse my mum permission to do it on her behalf.
What about information regarding her ongoing medical condition? Should I just make a copy of the letters I get and keep then until he gets out and resumes contact, give them to his solicitor, post them to parents house for him to get whenever, give to mutual friends to post to him or just not bother?
Hmm....I think you need legal advice about the letters, but my instinct is telling me to inform his solicitor of anything very serious (such as a change of her condition, the need for surgery etc), but if her care isnt changing and her condition hasnt changed then dont bother. Sort of a "no news is good news" attitude.
You mother sounds as though she has self-esteem issues if she thinks you should be staying in contact with this scrote.
It sounds as though you may have self-esteem issues too for having to even ask whether to send a card or not. Any right-minded person would not have to ask.
If I was you I would stop listening to my mother and start listening to those on a Women's Aid freedom course. You certainly need to gain your freedom.
As for letters re her medical condition - just forget. He can't do anuthing while he's imprisoned and I doubt you want a tosser who damaged her home involved in her treatment.
You need to be very careful here. He could use her medical conbdition in mitigation should he be found guilty and sentenced or even to strengthen his request for bail.
Do you really want that?
So taking her to have actual contact with him isn't enough, you now have to spend time making a card on your DD's behalf? I don't think so. Tell your mum how disappointed you are in her inability to see the full picture here and put her daughter and granddaughter first.
Thanks, mine too.
Between you all you have really helped me quantify why I feel uncomfortable with it when all I could do was squirm inside
It's is an affectionate things makinga card with dc for a dp and if the split was less brutal then maybe.
Also the wrong impression for him and defence lawyers.
Ill seek legal advice re medical reports and make sure they go through appropriate channels.
It's not just the wrong impression for him/his lawyers, it's not the right thing to teach your daughter. He can smash up her home, but it's ok, he's her dad?
Good luck with the rest of your lives x
Us Vipers have our uses, thats why the twats hate us so much
Sleep well xx
No don't do it. A 19 month old can't make a card etc, so he will think its your idea and it will open a whole can of worms
He's off to the Crown Court and your mum still wants to facilitate contact between him and your DD?! That's crazy talk.
Agree with everything Bogeyface has said.
I'd be the first to say I don't know much about these issues. As a gut reaction, I would probably do it, but make clear why I'm doing it - i.e., because a child deserves to have two parents pulling together even if they are not relationally together. Unless you need to have nothing to do with him for your own security - completely up to you - I think it would be helpful for your daughter if you're able to support each other as parents. As you've pointed out, this is something you've already been graciously and sacrificially doing, so not much new there.
But I don't understand the dynamics of domestic violence - perhaps you need to have nothing further to do with him at all, in which case please forgive this blundering post.
No, don't do it, he will see it as forgiveness and tolerance.
He's a shit father, partner, and he's violent.
As said upthread, he'll use it in court too. Just do the legal paperwork that's required to get him out of your life and run for the hills.
He maybe dd's dad, but.... Before he deserves to be her father he has a long way to go.
Good luck, just love your dd, she'll be ok.
Good luck to you, you have been given good advice here.
Your mum is bonkers. When your DD is older, if she got in to an abusive relationship, would you be encouraging her to give the illusion that all is forgiven for the sake of any children of that relationship?
I think if you try to imagine, knowing everything he's done to you, if this were your DD, and her BF had done it to here.. would YOU be so willing to force her to pander/make contact with a man like this?
I'm guessing here that the only 'contact' you'd be condoning would involve a baseball bat.
Most victims of DV have a family background that creates it.
You leaving, standing up for DD, for yourself has stopped the cycle. As long as you carry on working towards healing.
Have you done the Freedom Programme? Keep doing it over and over until you see just how wrong that relationship was.
Keep posting on here, check out the emotional abuse thread, and I'd say Stately Homes too.
We're not going to let you down here, we'll back you in protecting yourself and your DD for as long as you need it.
Your mother is sabotaging your life here. A man like that could easily kill you both.
I say distance the pair of them.
Fabergeegg, sorry but this man is a dud, he'll never be a parent that 'pulls together'
Abuse is a highly specific and complex situation. RL rules simply don't apply.
OP needs to shut ALL contact down as far as she can.
If courts were quicker to ban contact in the cases of proven DV, perhaps more of these perps would actually be forced to look long and hard at themselves.
Imo, no violent man has any right of contact. If he wants it, he has to be a decent human being.
If a person hits an adult it doest follow that person will hit children.
Far too much using children as weapons, tools and so forth played out in these forums egged on by others who project their bad experiences and life choices onto others.
Card for Daddy in prison? I never quite bought into all this utterly silly bollox of 'making cards' when shops sell perfectly good ones - its his families job to pick up the slack here - his mother can send a card from his daughter you don't have to be involved at all
Run woman ran.
Straight to the point waffling
waltzingmathilda Wed 11-Sep-13 07:37:50
"If a person hits an adult it doest follow that person will hit children.
Far too much using children as weapons, tools and so forth played out in these forums egged on by others who project their bad experiences and life choices onto others"
No. But it does follow that a child who witnesses domestic violence, even if they are not the victim, will be at risk of emotional damage. The person who gets the black eye is not necessarily the only person who is hurt.
If the ex is given the impression that the OP is willing to start again and then finds out this is not the case, this seriously increases the risks that her dd will be suffering the indirect effects of dv.
I would be very wary of the mother's attitude in all this. It is not actually all that unusual for a mother to act as an apologist for the abuser of her dd. And it can be very, very damaging.
I would use a solicitor as much as possible and keep your mother at armslength.
I have always tried to enable her to maintain her relationships with her paternal grandparents and as long as he wants and she wants (obviously she's too young to really object but I am certain that she enjoys the fine that spend together) to maintain contact then I will facilitate it within safe parameters (thank goodness for the contact centre/ mediation team)
My main reason for this is selfish, when she grows up I WILL be able to prove to her that's its not my fault he hasn't maintained contact (because he's flaky and probably won't)
I will continue to make her available to her paternal grandparents as long as they want to see her.
However in our case her paternal grandparents are truely lovely people and not represented by their sons actions.
The people who are calling for me to discontinue contact are well within their rights to hold that opinion and if contact centres/ mediation was not an option I would have to.
Children are not weapons, but they are very vulnerable and as some very wise people have pointed out I have to treat this situation in the same way I would advise my dd to.
You can't even be sure your DD would want to give him a card.
If I grew up and found out my dad behaved like that to my mum I wouldn't send him a card!
I get where you mum is coming from to a certain extent. Maybe you could get her to make one, wipe your arse on it, then disguise it as art work.
Do the court ordered stuff and no more.
A card could be used against you. Your child is too young to do it herself.
Her father is not a good influence in her life. Exposure to such a toxic person is poison to her. Do what you can get away with on a minimum footing.
Be honest with your DD always. Age appropriate, naturally, but the truth nonetheless.
Ignore ALL those who try to undermine your instincts.
Waltzing, the physical violence is one thing, emotional violence is another.
While an emotionally violent person isn't necessarily physically violent, a physically violent person is ALWAYS emotionally abusive.
Bruises heal with time, soul destroying only heals with heavy duty psychological help.
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