To think it is polite for people with buggies to fold them when a bus is busy

(269 Posts)
SilverStreak7 Mon 09-Sep-13 09:19:14

I suppose this will have mixed replies .

I am not talking of prams with sleeping babies in or even the buggies with sleeping toddlers in but those parents whom have a buggy with say a 4 year old in who is awake and who will not fold down said buggy when a single decker is getting very packed .

The other day I was on a bus and two buggies were on there , one had one of those boards at the back where an older child can stand (I do not know what they are called as never had one) , Now, the child was asleep but that is not the issue ,, The Mother watched an elderly lady slowly go by as this board was sticking out , then another pram tried to leave the bus and only at the last minute (after much struggling by the leaving Mother) did she push up the board ! Ive also seen people refuse to fold them up as a wheelchair wishes to get on .

SilverStreak7 Mon 09-Sep-13 09:21:07

Sorry ,, a person in wheelchair wishes to get on

bearleftmonkeyright Mon 09-Sep-13 09:22:07

It can often be more faff and inconvenience to others to fold it up. It is difficult to fold a buggy on a busy bus and supervise a toddler. I think yabu.

Hegsy Mon 09-Sep-13 09:22:40

YANBU, you have no idea how glad I am that we are fortunate enough to have a car for when wse have a baby. No way could I cope with hormones and bus ettiquette. but I really thought wheelchairs had priority over buggies and that the driver HAD to make buggies fold up for wheelchairs?

I could be wrong but I would feel so guilty preventing a disabled person accessing a vital service.

YANBU those boards clip on and off really easily. I have left sleeping babies/toddlers in a buggy on the bus but no need to when they are awake. My nearly 4yr old wouldn't be seen awake in one now anyway - reserved for when he falls asleep in the car.

SilverStreak7 Mon 09-Sep-13 09:25:38

Yes , I think wheelchairs do have precedence .. In the event the driver did turn the engine off until the buggy had been folded and the little one stood very nicely with his Mother for rest of the journey,

waikikamookau Mon 09-Sep-13 09:25:53

I was told I had to, by the bus driver.

WorraLiberty Mon 09-Sep-13 09:27:14

YANBU but...

Ive also seen people refuse to fold them up as a wheelchair wishes to get on

These people ^^ get thrown off the bus by the driver.

AnneUulmelmahay Mon 09-Sep-13 09:27:16

<sits on hands>

SilverStreak7 Mon 09-Sep-13 09:27:28

Yes 3birthdaybunnies ,, a sleeping young one is best left asleep but as you say , no need when awake . I do appreciate I only had to use buses a few times when my children were younger but I did fold buggy up and sit my child on my lap in those instances I did use a bus

SilverStreak7 Mon 09-Sep-13 09:28:30

Hahaha please do not sit on hands , I realise not everyone will agree so please say your opinion smile

So what about when you have a sleeping baby in a pram and a person in a wheelchair want to get on? Folding the pram wouldn't be an option so weould I have to get off the bus with my baby to make way for the wheelchair? Doesn't seem very fair.

waikikamookau Mon 09-Sep-13 09:30:17

I don't see why a sleeping toddler in a buggy can't be woken to fold the buggy to let anyone on the bus

SilverStreak7 Mon 09-Sep-13 09:32:39

I don;t know Lyra. As I said a sleeping baby is somewhat different (in my opinion) and I don;t think anyone with a pram with a sleeping baby in should be made to get off ,, , It is a difficult one granted .

EmpireBiscuit Mon 09-Sep-13 09:33:19

What happens if the pushchair is of a non-folding travel system variety? Do they have to get off?

Hegsy Mon 09-Sep-13 09:33:27

In that event Lyra I would imagine someone on the bus would be willing to help you fold up the pram whilst you hold your sleeping baby. Is it fair that the wheelchair user would have to wait indefinitely for a bus without someone in the wheelchair bit? What if 6 buses go past all with a sleeping baby in a pram? Even with a ten minute bus service that would be an hour a wheelchair user would have to wait.......

AnneUulmelmahay Mon 09-Sep-13 09:33:45

No no not you, silver, you are lovely

The non folder, the ooh the inconvenience-r, now, a diff kettle of fish.

bearleftmonkeyright Mon 09-Sep-13 09:34:19

I was thinking about that sort of situation Lyra, when my older two were little bus drivers would make me fold up my buggy, I had a baby and a two year old even when the bus was not that busy. Mothers do pay to use the bus as well. I do think I am considerate. I would not want to inconvenience anyone but we all want to get where we want to be.

I have passed sleeping child to another passenger in order to fold up buggy but I wouldn't do it unless I needed to - ds isn't the calmest child when woken prematurely from a nap so no need to instigate that on a virtually empty bus for 10mins. Lyra I guess the thing is that you could push your child home, or pass the child to another passenger/ driver while you fold the pushchair. A person in a wheelchair can't just stand up and fold up their wheelchair and pop it on the bus.

WorraLiberty Mon 09-Sep-13 09:36:18

So what about when you have a sleeping baby in a pram and a person in a wheelchair want to get on? Folding the pram wouldn't be an option so weould I have to get off the bus with my baby to make way for the wheelchair? Doesn't seem very fair.

Of course it's an option confused

You ask a passenger to help you. As a rule, they're normally only too willing.

It's much more of an option than the wheelchair user folding their wheelchair, isn't it?

NellysKnickers Mon 09-Sep-13 09:39:16

It's a difficult one. Some bus drivers are wankers, twice ds2 has bumped his head because I'm folding the buggy and the driver couldn't wait an extra 30 seconds so pulled away. However, its always best to fold it up if you can, although it is a bloody nightmare with two kids, change bag and shopping.

HeyUGuys Mon 09-Sep-13 09:40:22

I use the buses every day, i have ds3 12 weeks with me. At the moment ge is in a carrycot pram, so to fold it i'd have to take the cot off ( 2 hands ) and fold the frame. I couldnt do this while holding ds safely.
Some people dont think about where lo goes while you fold the pushchair, as bus is moving an buggy is tipping backwards as lo is no longer in it.
When ds3 is old enough to stand i will be folding pushchair before we get on the bus, he can stand up while i do it, not only is it fair then for mums with younger babies but also easier for me as i dont have to wait for buses with no pushchairs on.

Writerwannabe83 Mon 09-Sep-13 09:41:18

YANBU - Buggies can be very annoying on buses.

When I was younger and took the bus only 2 pushchairs were allowed on at a time. I'm guessing this was safety and convenience reasons, it isn't ideal if in an emergency people need to get off the bus and the aisles were blocked. There was usually a notice up in the buggy/wheelchair area politely asking mothers to fold down their buggies if a wheelchair needed access to the bay. A few moms probably rolled their eyes when they were required to do it, but nobody was going to side with them over the rights of a wheelchair user who had no option but to use the spaces in the bay. I have known bus drivers not let women with pushchairs onto the bus if there were already two on board.

On the flip side, I do feel bad for the mothers because they are in a difficult position. If their child was awake but there was room for them in the parking bay then fine, but if the child was awake and things were tight and people were squashed then yes, I do think it is reasonable to expect them to fold their buggies away - so long as there are seats available on the actual bus for the children to sit on, or seats for the mother to sit own with the child on her lap - saying that though, you'd expect another passenger to give up their seat in this situation to accommodate the mother/child.

Dobbiesmum Mon 09-Sep-13 09:42:26

You're not making way for a wheelchair, you're making way for a person who couldn't get to where they were going unless the space allocated to them on the bus is free.
Just ask someone to help you.

RedHelenB Mon 09-Sep-13 09:43:00

It's a relatively new thing, having space for buggies not to be folded but I didn't drive when my two eldest were a baby & 2 yr old & I managed by using a baby carrier & stroller that folded up. Wheelchairs absolutely take priority over a sleeping baby, often if you move them they drop back to sleep anyway.

kd73 Mon 09-Sep-13 09:43:18

Last time I got on a bus a few weeks ago, folded the pushchair so ds could have a seat and found nowhere to store folded buggy. Luckily the bus wasn't busy and I rested it in the area for buggies and wheelchairs but it took up three times the space!!!!!!!!!

RoonilWazlibWuvsHermyown Mon 09-Sep-13 09:44:00

empire, if you read the guidelines of a bus company, some of them have details about the types of prams they accept. For example, my local buses say that any pram must be foldable to allow for wheelchair users and if you get on without a folding pram, you have to be prepared to leave the bus. So if you get on with a travel system that can't fold, you would have to leave the bus if a wheelchair user wanted to board.

And prams/pushchairs in general, if you can sit there on the bus and not fold, preventing someone with a wheelchair getting on the bus in the one spot that they are able to use and feel okay about it, you are a dick.

kd73 Mon 09-Sep-13 09:45:21

I have also been refused access on a bus as too many buggies for mine as well as everyone else's!!!!

GobblersKnob Mon 09-Sep-13 09:45:49

When I had my ds (only 9 years ago) the only buses on my route had STEPS to get onto them, (obviously not wheelchair friendly which was crap and I am glad they are now changed) but I had no choice but to fold my buggy, just to get onto the bus, plus I used to bus to do the vast majority of my food shopping, so quite often I had a sleeping small person a buggy and serveral bag of shopping, hard work, but perfectly do-able.

Personally I think life would be so much simpler if you HAD to fold your buggy to board the bus, otherwise find an alternative means of transport.

Those bus spaces you wheel your buggy into, were only put there for wheelchairs, sadly wheelchair users cannot opt for the 'inconvenience' of having to fold their wheelchair and carry it onto the bus.

gnushoes Mon 09-Sep-13 09:46:51

Wheelchairs have priority over buggies. Those spaces are for wheelchair users, and can be used for buggies if no wheelchair is there. I learned this properly from a very long and increasingly acrimonious thread here about a year ago...

Dobbiesmum Mon 09-Sep-13 09:49:35

It would be helpful though if buses had somewhere to store buggies, the last time I folded up I almost took out the eye of the poor bloke behind me with the handle and I only have a little stroller! blush

HeyUGuys Mon 09-Sep-13 09:52:06

Also ive seen people with pushchairs refused to be allowed on as there are too many already on, then watched as a mother with a pushchair gets off at the next stop! I think thats awful, letting the other woman wait 20 mins or so when you only had to walk 2 mins down the road.

I would take a sleeping baby out for a wheelchair user, but i've found people wont often help unless asked too. I've had a driver get out and help me get my folder pushchair off the bus once before, i was amazed as this had never happened before, or since!

passmetheprozac Mon 09-Sep-13 09:52:26

I use the buss frequently and the signs on the bus state that buggies and prams may use the wheelchair space, however if someone using a wheelchair needs to get on the bus, buggies and prams will have to be folded.

SHarri13 Mon 09-Sep-13 09:52:51

Our buses have wheelchair spaces that have notices that say prams/ pushchairs can use then should they be free. I was once using one and a wheelchair user came on, I was going to get off but said person used the wheelchair area and insisted I stayed on in the space left. Everyone was happy, we had a good chat on the way home in fact. But my point being, I would, without question get off the bus should a person more in need of the spa e came on just as I would give up my seat should someone more in need board the bus. My pram at the time was not an easy fold on so folding wasn't really an option. Maybe my synced would be a little different if it wasn't a 7-8 bus hourly route?

Always fold or move for wheelchairs.

SilverStreak7 Mon 09-Sep-13 09:56:29

Yes, that is selfish HeyUGuys I agree.

SilverStreak7 Mon 09-Sep-13 09:57:05

Thanks for the replies ,, was just curious as to others opinions on this .

candycoatedwaterdrops Mon 09-Sep-13 09:57:38

Lyra It would be more unfair to allow a pram use the wheelchair space when - with a little help - the pram could be folded/moved out the way and the wheelchair user could use the space they are entitled to.

MrsOakenshield Mon 09-Sep-13 09:58:30

for a wheelchair, either you fold or get off if folding isn't practical (sleeping baby, lots of shopping etc). But this is an instance of someone struggling to get past, so folding to create space wouldn't really be the answer, but she should have folded up the buggy board and pushed in the handle(if possible) to ensure the buggy doesn't stick out in to the aisle too much.

MrsOakenshield Mon 09-Sep-13 10:00:25

heyUguys - it's possible the first mother hadn't seen the second? Our buses can get so rammed you wouldn't neccesarily be able to see what's going on at the front doors from the wheelchair/buggy space.

WandaDoff Mon 09-Sep-13 10:00:32

Dear God, being able to take unfolded prams & pushchairs on the bus at all is a luxury.

As anybody who had children & had to use public transport before the millenium will probably already know hmm

It was only after the disability discrimination act in 2005 insisted on public transport being accessible that things changed.

I know I sound like a gimmer, but back in my day It's so much easier to use public transport now.

If you have a runaway toddler & there are no wheelchair users involved then it'd be stupid to fold up the buggy. Someone would've had to offer to wrestle DS to the ground whilst I folded up his buggy, but luckily I never had to in the time that I did need to use buses.

I don't get why people who don't use wheelchairs or buggies give a shit though. As long as you've made sure it's not sticking out in the aisle then you have as much right to be on the bus as everyone else. The funny thing is, all the huffers and puffers would've much more pissed off if I'd have let DS free on the bus. You just can't win...which is why it's best to just do what suits you if there's room (as long as you're not parking it in the middle of the aisle obviously).

No option here but to fold a buggy. No fold no ride. The area you are all talking about is for wheelchairs only. I used a sling. Much easier all round.

^ Before anyone misreads that, if there's a wheelchair then you have to fold, no question. But expecting people to when they don't need to is unreasonable.

ScornedWoman Mon 09-Sep-13 10:04:37

Surely, if you know you're likely to be using buses, you choose a suitably practical, ie foldable, pushchair - or sling?

Weegiemum Mon 09-Sep-13 10:05:30

I was going to rant but I won't much

I think if you are planning on using public transport lots, you should be responsible and buy a buggy which doesn't take up half the bus. You should always graciously give way to wheelchairs, even if it means getting off.

And not everyone knows, but a Major buggy is technically classed as a wheelchair, so an older child with a disability in a Major should also be given precedence over a buggy or pram.

Nowhere at all to.put folded stroller (plus shopping bags) on our super-new and shiny busses.

Never had a problem with people helping wheelchair users, everyone automatically moves and some offer help. Our town is very big on disability access though.

The problem we have is women with shopping trolleys, sit on the front seat and have the trolley taking up aisle space and refusing to share the seat. Seriously sick of this happening. I once asked if I could squeeze past one woman (I was pregnant at the time) and she told me I had enough space to stand where I was! A man on the opposite side then gave me his seat and said very loudly "ignorant cow" lol.

Oh and she was in her late 40's, early 50's at a guess, before anybody accuses me of being disrespectful to the elderly been on far too many of these threads

Weegie, you are at the other end of the M8 to me, do they have he same rules as Lothian busses?

Runningchick123 Mon 09-Sep-13 10:08:56

As wannadoff has pointed out; accessible spaces were only introduced as part of the discrimination act so it stands to reason that a wheelchair user should always have priority use of that space.
The argument that some pushchairs are too difficult to fold up doesn't wash with me as if you ae going t be a regular public transport user then you should consider a suitable type of pushchair which can be easily folded with one hand - baby taken off in car seat / small carrycot etc. no point buying a coach pram etc if you have to get a bus everyday.
But maybe I just think like this because mine were babies prior to the mass introduction of accessible buses so I had to consider getting a folded buggy and possibly sleeping child up the steps of a bus.

elliejjtiny Mon 09-Sep-13 10:12:35

I think people with buggies should fold or get off when a wheelchair user needs to get on the bus, but don't think they should have to fold if the bus gets busy. I think anyone who is able should get off the bus one or two stops earlier if the bus is too full to let anyone else on though. I think if the bus fares were cheaper then people would be more considerate. I know when I've paid £5 for me and my 7 year old to travel 1.5 miles (younger children are free) and usually waited over an hour to get on a bus that has space for the buggy and DS2's wheelchair I'm less inclined to be helpful to other passengers.

SilverStreak7 Mon 09-Sep-13 10:15:01

Weegiemum . .I completely agree., , think you've hit the nail on the head so to speak .

Lambsie Mon 09-Sep-13 10:25:22

A 4 year old in a buggy may well be disabled. A lot of sn buggies look like ordinary buggies. They shouldn't have to fold.

WorraLiberty Mon 09-Sep-13 10:36:49

A 4 year old in a buggy may well be disabled. A lot of sn buggies look like ordinary buggies. They shouldn't have to fold.

Yes but then you'd tell the driver that you're unable to fold, wouldn't you?

I've used the bus a lot with small children over the years. When my oldest was tiny and we needed to take the buggy too, I used a sling, because they didn't have the spaces then.

I've never taken (or owned) a pushchair or double buggy that couldn't be folded up, on a bus. I had a travel system for my 3rd- because it meant I could fold it up if needed on the bus, keeping the baby in the car seat part- much easier than holding them with toddlers on reins too.

My dh is a wheelchair user. Nearly every time we've used the bus, there is someone who finds it impossible to fold up their buggy and hold their child at the same time- and the driver has had to tell people to move- sometimes the parents haven't, they've acted as if it's a massive inconvenience to allow him room. Dh gets annoyed by people's lack of sense (he hates buses anyway). I always fold up the buggy when we use the bus- we take up all the room as it is and it shows them up for being difficult, it's not that hard to hold a baby and fold up a buggy how do they cope with other stuff?

On one very crowded bus I used to catch in rush hour with the kids, the bus driver used to tell people to move out the bay to allow space for the buggy. I used to appreciate that- the space taken up by an unfolded buggy isn't much more than a folded one you're struggling to hold up and a toddler or two- there aren't decent luggage spaces on buses anymore, so standing up holding everything still will take up space. I could stand up and hold one child on my hip, if the buggy was unfolded. I couldn't hold two and the buggy.

I took a rolled up carpet on a bus once, with a buggy, with my baby in the sling, in the days before the spaces. grin It was that or walk with miles with it along an A road without a pavement and the driver just laughed at me. waits for medal for being stupid wonderful and capable

MortifiedAdams Mon 09-Sep-13 10:51:13

I wondered about this on the bus the other day. I have a nearly two year old in a MAclaren stroller. There is nowhere to put a folded buggy, and I am unable to hold both a (large and heavy) folded buggy and a toddler. It also would take up little to no less space.

I would, however, get off the bus and walk the last few stops of someone with a greater need than me boarded and there was no space for them.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 09-Sep-13 10:54:59

Lyra..yes it is fair to expect you to fold or get off. And legally obligatory too. HtH

Pigsmummy Mon 09-Sep-13 10:57:14

If there is shopping/stuff in basket part of my buggy I can't fold it, lots of other prams are the same. I won't be unloading all the shopping etc and try to deal with a child whilst folding/unfolding buggy, I haven't got enough arms. I would move it out of the way as much as possible though.

pigs If a wheelchair was waiting to get on and you couldn't fold the pram then the right thing to do is get off the bus.

WorraLiberty Mon 09-Sep-13 10:59:49

Pigsmummy you would be getting off the bus in that case.

If the driver asks you to fold, you do it or leave.

I think the order of priority goes:

1. Sleeping baby.
2. Wheelchair user.
3. Old person with Zimmer frame / person with crutches.
4. Sleeping older child.
5. Everyone else.

The only applies if it is a reasonable-sized pushchair and not one of those pointless enormous Hummer-type prams, which have no place on any bus whatsoever.

WorraLiberty Mon 09-Sep-13 11:01:28

WTF?

A sleeping baby takes priority over a wheelchair user, in the space that's actually for wheelchair users?

Yeah right...

noobieteacher Mon 09-Sep-13 11:02:17

There isn't a right or wrong, it depends on the circumstances. But equally important is that members of the public help to resolve the situation.

I once freed up a major traffic jam where a car refused to move for a bus. The driver had turned off the engine. I got off the bus and nagged the stupid woman in the car until she got fed up with me and moved. Everyone on the bus cheered. But I was amazed that nobody else had tried this, everyone just sat there moaning and complaining, a bit like on this thread. If yoy don't like it, say something that will make a difference.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 09-Sep-13 11:03:22

Themaltesefalcon..maybe in your head but in law the sleeping baby is not no 1

I have always folded my daughter's pushchair when necessary, which isn't easy, as she is a bolter. Usually this has been for old people with Zimmer frames or those tartan trolley things. I don't think you should wait for people to ask you to because many people are simply too embarrassed to cause inconvenience to a woman with a child.

I have sometimes seen both in England and in New Zealand the phenomenon of mothers (or childminders, possibly) being asked to collapse a monster-pram but preferring to storm off the bus in a huff rather than comply (or perhaps the contraptions are not foldable; I wouldn't know), generally mouthing off as they do so. Pointless unpleasantness, in my opinion.

MiaowTheCat Mon 09-Sep-13 11:06:50

I have a double, and two not yet walking kids. If I have to get a bus I make sure I leave a LOT of extra time for the journey in case I can't fit in the available buggy slots or if I need to get off if a wheelchair needs the space. Its not rocket science to try not to be an inconsiderate twat.

Obviously with two non walkers to wrangle folding isn't really an option so I just have to factor that time cushion into journeys.

Old enough to remember having to fold my younger brothers buggy and carry him plus pushchair up the steps of the bus when we went into town though so I tend to appreciate what we've got now!

JerseySpud Mon 09-Sep-13 11:08:33

And this is why i would rather drive somewhere than take a bus.

Maybe the wheelchair user in my family is just so lovely and deferential to the sleeping babies in my family that my priorities are skew-whiff.

I have never seen a wheelchair user vs sleeping baby standoff, so am guessing. The buses in my native country (where I lived when my daughter was very small) tended to have enough room for both, admittedly.

KellyElly Mon 09-Sep-13 11:11:11

This thread will be 16 pages by the end of the day grin

Morgause Mon 09-Sep-13 11:12:42

Our city buses have 4 spaces for buggies or one space for a wheelchair and 2 for buggies, which is usually enough.

In the dark ages I just had a stroller which folded easily or a big pram which meant I had to walk everywhere. I think the new "systems" make life so much easier for parents. Sometimes it's impossible for them to fold them on buses if they are laden with shopping and it seems unreasonable to ask them to manage shopping, baby and toddler and fold a pram. There would be nowhere to put a folded pram anyway, as another contributor pointed out.

The buses are every eight minutes so and I don't think any reasonable person would mind a short wait rather than have a mum and kids thrown off. I've never seen that happen, though, usually there is enough space for everyone who needs it. Even those blasted wheeled tartan shopping carriers.

I saw a nasty row once, before the new buses, where the driver of a very crowded bus told a woman she and her pram, sleeping newborn and 2 other children had to get off for a wheelchair user. She was willing to do so and asked for a refund of the bus fare which was refused. She asked for something to show the driver of the next bus that the fare had been paid and the driver refused that as well. So she said she wasn't getting off then.

A few people joined in on both sides, I could only spectate from the back. The chap in the wheelchair said it was ok another bus would be along soon but the driver was determined the woman (in tears by now because she had no cash) would have to get off. He threatened to call the police and was vile to her. She was sobbing and so were the kids.

Meanwhile another bus arrived, the chap in the wheelchair got on it and off it went. But still the driver wanted the woman and her kids off. A really big chap, a few rows in front of me made his way to the front and explained, loudly, to the driver that he needed to get back in his cab and drive.

It made the papers and the driver was sacked but I've never forgotten how utterly horrible he was.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 09-Sep-13 11:13:23

Exactly. .it's up to the wheelchair user if they let the baby have priority.

Problems usually arise because its not a.one off with one baby but most buses have babies on so wheelchair users may never get on if babies had priority

bearleftmonkeyright Mon 09-Sep-13 11:18:08

Morgause, I was wondering about a refund. What an awful situation for both parties.

RevoltedMum Mon 09-Sep-13 11:23:55

themaltesefalco

I think the order of priority goes:

1. Sleeping baby.
2. Wheelchair user

Please check out this

You are most welcome to lobby parliament on behalf of sleeping babies, in the mean time follow the law!

I am not subject to that law as I do not live in the UK. Thanks for playing, RevoltedMu.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 09-Sep-13 11:27:33

hmm

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 09-Sep-13 11:27:52

"Playing"

RevoltedMum Mon 09-Sep-13 11:29:04

Playing? as in hairy hands?

This is a UK site you are posting on.

Sorry, but you are fighting a straw woman. I have never not made way for a wheelchair user on a bus. Let's be clear about that.

And you do realise that, if I were still living in the UK, as a private citizen I do not have to comply with that law? It applies, if I'm not mistaken, to service providers and employers. Yes, I'd have to do what the driver said, because he'd have to follow that law, but not me, capisce? Correct me if I am wrong; I am only familiar (all too familiar, as a lawyer) with the NZ equivalent.

"Thanks for playing" is evidently a phrase you are unfamiliar with. It is not my job to explain it to you.

Also: mumsnet.com is on the world wide web. Sorry, you can't keep us foreigners out.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 09-Sep-13 11:38:23

Do you want some vinegar for the chip on your shoulder themaltese?

Overreaction much?

Still. .you fight for your right to not be legally bound to fold for a wheelchair user even if you would anyway. Go you

Weegiemum Mon 09-Sep-13 11:39:00

I've experienced this with a major buggy as my dd2 needed one for 3 years when she couldn't weight bear due to a hip condition. Sniffy entitled people with monster prams expecting me to fold a buggy while holding a 5 year old under my arm to top her screaming in pain.

I am best buddies with many FirstGlasgow bus drivers now who always stood up for me (and dd) and am sometimes amazed I've not been mown down by a mob of angry monster pram-pushers!

Almost as bad were the (always little, always old) ladies who would look at dd in her massive disabled buggy and ask "aren't you a bit big for a buggy." Well, duh! She was in her school uniform reading a book. She developed a wonderfully withering look and eye roll.

Maltese I'm wondering what your reason is for prioritising a sleeping baby over, say, my dd?

twistyfeet Mon 09-Sep-13 11:41:33

surely anyone with sense would prioritise a wheelchair user over a sleeping baby. Babies are not made out of spun silk you know. They dont explode on being moved or woken!

GettingAnnoyed2013 Mon 09-Sep-13 11:42:33

Dd has been in a wheelchair since 3 yrs old. Bus arrived with 2 prams on, one toddler and the other a sleeping baby. The two ladies were so busy chatting they didn't hear the bus driver asking them to close the prams. When they did hear they both started arguing and getting angry. Bus driver was going red in the face and other passengers were getting involved.

In the end I asked a lovely lady also waiting at the bus stop to hold my hand and changing bag. Picked up dd out of her wheelchair and sat her next to a young lad sat in the first seats. I asked him to just put his arm around her as she was unable to balance without support. He did better than that and scooped her up into his lap and gave her his iPod to play with. I closed dd's wheelchair and driver helped bring it on to the bus (bus was a hospital bus so he realised I probably had an appointment to get to) driver was very apologetic but the lovely lady got onto the bus gave the two ladies a stern telling off which ended up with bus applauding and shouting. The lad held dd all the way to the hospital. The chatting mms satin silence the whole journey and anyone getting off the bus would mutter that they should be ashamed of themselves.

I know dd had a right to that space and the driver should have told them to get off but I hate arguments and fighting. We spend most of our lives fighting for dd's life that if people feel they are entitled to that space more than a wheelchair user then let them have it....I have bigger fish to fry smile

Have passed my driving now and have a car with wheelchair access so dd can drive straight in .... Now spend my time trying to avoid disabled bay arguments!!!

EllesAngel Mon 09-Sep-13 11:43:58

Legally and morally wheelchair users come first. The rest can fight it out afaic.

Someone mentioned other passengers not helping unless asked. That's not surprising really having seen some of the threads on here that go along the lines of "OMG!! OMG!! someone just touched my baby's cheek with their finger. How dare they. He's now contaminated. What can I do to prevent some stranger contaminating my child again."...or words to that effect hmm

However, most people will be happy to help if asked.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 09-Sep-13 11:44:05

That is so shocking GettingAnnoyed. I hope they were ashamed later (but I doubt it)

No, I was just trying to point out to RevoltedMu that "in the mean time [sic] follow the law!" is not a good argument for at least two distinct reasons.

Again, away with your straw women. I do care a lot for personal reasons about the rights of wheelchair users, as it happens.

I also believe (young) sleeping babies should not be woken.

That obviously makes me some kind of arsehole in Mumsnetland. Oh well. I'll live.

CatAmongThePigeons Mon 09-Sep-13 11:44:59

Wheelchair usera get priority over prams as prams can be folded, even the shitty tank I have that comes in two pieces, then you have the bags and small child to contend with.

When I've had to get off the bus (when DS2 was little and I couldn't fold the pram) the driver let the next driver know I was waiting to let me on the bus. Which was nice.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 09-Sep-13 11:46:09

Well you said it themaltesefalcon wink

RevoltedMum Mon 09-Sep-13 11:49:08

Hands themaltesefalcon a toy and a pram to throw in her game!

Prefer tomato sauce to vinegar, actually, Fanjo.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 09-Sep-13 11:51:48

No no it must be brown sauce (only Edinburgh and Glasgow people will get that one probably)

twistyfeet Mon 09-Sep-13 11:52:53

To be honest I'm sick to the back teeth of prams in the wheelchair space. dd is 9 and quadriplegic. Her wheelchair doesnt fold and has an oxygen cylinder on it as well as her feed pump and yet time and again mums with a teeny baby will not fold and vacate the wheelchair space. Often we get verbal abuse using the R-word and S-word which dd understands well enough.
I'd blanket ban all unfolded prams now because once they started using them, they became entitled and now think they fucking own them and will not move. Disabled people campaigned for those spaces for fucking decades.
I am no longer polite about it. It's the ONE space we can use on the bus. A pram can be folded and the mum and baby sit in any of the other 30 or 40 spaces.

Well, after a story like GettingAnnoyed2013's, I can understand better why people feel so strongly. That's just appalling.

Leaving thread because my toddler is waking up and yes, she DOES explode upon waking.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 09-Sep-13 11:54:40

Twisty..you should be legally allowed to punch them IMO.

twistyfeet Mon 09-Sep-13 11:56:09

in future Fanjo, I intend to collect her full continence pads and use them as grenades wink

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 09-Sep-13 11:56:54

Oh you must. With photos grin

ghostspirit Mon 09-Sep-13 11:57:27

my child is 3 she still has a buggy. i mostly take her out of the buggy now and fold it. if she does happen to be in it. and someone needs the space more than me then i take her out and fold it.

the thing i hate the most is when people leave their buggy in the space with no child in it.

and i would defo 100% fold it for a wheelchair user.

Morgause Mon 09-Sep-13 12:05:51

A partial solution seems to be for everywhere to have buses like ours. 2 spaces just for buggies/prams, wheelchairs couldn't use them and a wheelchair space which can hold 2 buggies when not required for a wheelchair. Then everyone has a chance of a space.

Christ, twistyfeet, that's gobsmackingly horrible (typing while breastfeeding, not ignoring exploding toddler).

I was wrong.

Revised list:
1. wheelchair user
2. sleeping baby
3. elderly / otherwise mobility-impaired person.
4. sleeping toddler.
5. everyone else.

Again, the buses in my home country are so roomy that there' unlikely to be a situation in which it has to be the needs of a wheelchair user vs. those of a sleeping baby. Apologies if have caused needless annoyance.

Morgause Mon 09-Sep-13 12:06:38

When I say wheelchair couldn't use them I mean physically cannot use them in case that wasn't clear.

RoonilWazlibWuvsHermyown Mon 09-Sep-13 12:10:41

Is there anything we can do about this to stop this kind of stuff happening? I can't believe people think its okay to treat people like this sad

ghostspirit Mon 09-Sep-13 12:21:00

hermyown. probably nothing unless there are seperate wheel chair buses. seperate buggy buses. although the bus driver should tell the person fold up your pram they often dont want to become involved. maybe bring back the bus conductor

GettingAnnoyed2013 Mon 09-Sep-13 12:24:20

Educating people is a start but I am not prepared to educate people in front of my daughter. The number of times we have been verbally abused is shocking and something dd should not have to deal with. Always remember for every selfish entitled person there is an amazing person usually around the corner. The lad on the bus that day was only about 17/18 and is still in our lives a year later smile

Bus companies can ban unfolded buggies. It has been done,

People are forgetting these spaces are for wheelchairs, not buggies. The only people "entitled" to use them are wheelchair users. By all means if they aren't being used a buggy can go in the space, on the proviso, that they move when a wheelchair user come on. Zero tolerance on the buggy user, move of get off.

I might be harsh, but people will take a mile if given an inch.

GaryBuseysTeeth Mon 09-Sep-13 12:33:19

Yanbu

What irritates me is people who know they use public transport loads but still insist on buying non-foldable buggy.

I've only been on the bus twice with a buggy (we walk/drive most places) but it was a Maclaren that I'd be happy to fold.

Why did they get rid of that parcel/buggy space under stairs on (London) double deckets?

sashh Mon 09-Sep-13 12:34:43

Folding the pram wouldn't be an option so weould I have to get off the bus with my baby to make way for the wheelchair? Doesn't seem very fair.

Yes having a child who requires to sleep is so much less convenient than a permanent disability. I mean how many years of your life do you 'have' to get off?

Spend an hour in my shoes and you will be begging to walk your baby in a buggy.

RevoltedMum Mon 09-Sep-13 12:35:03

I may sound old here, in my thirties. I remember as a child due to getting a free seat, us children having to sit on a parents knee, and everyone folded pushchairs and managed, they even had to go up steps.

Disabled people worked so hard to get the space on a bus for a wheelchair and a ramp, to have equality and access the bus. Tractor pram users have piggy backed on the wheelchairs and then have the cheek to abuse the disabled.

WafflyVersatile Mon 09-Sep-13 12:39:24

I'm not sure why a baby sleeping should mean you shouldn't get off the bus to make way for a wheelchair user?

Babies sleeping in buggies get off buses all the time. confused

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 09-Sep-13 12:41:30

Themaltese..you are clearly not an arsehole smile

ghostspirit Mon 09-Sep-13 12:42:15

revoltedmum i remember this to. i think mums should be greatful that they can leave their buggy down most of the time. like others have said its not the end of the world if a baby is woken from a sleep and if a baby s that tired he/she will sleep in your arms. i dont understand why people buy monster buggys knowing they will be using public transport

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 09-Sep-13 12:42:17

Thank goodness there are so many decent people on this thread and the non folders are in minority. It used to be more the other way.

EllesAngel Mon 09-Sep-13 12:46:06

Give it time Fanjo

<cynical emoticon>

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 09-Sep-13 12:46:51

<ends thread now> grin

sashh Mon 09-Sep-13 12:49:25

And you do realise that, if I were still living in the UK, as a private citizen I do not have to comply with that law? It applies, if I'm not mistaken, to service providers and employers. Yes, I'd have to do what the driver said, because he'd have to follow that law, but not me, capisce? Correct me if I am wrong; I am only familiar (all too familiar, as a lawyer) with the NZ equivalent.

No but you would be taking part in a hate crime. You would be victimising a person with a protected characteristic, that has to be taken into account by the court (sorry this is criminal not civil law) so you would get a criminal record, you would probably be barred from working with vulnerable people too.

EllesAngel Mon 09-Sep-13 12:52:50

Fanjo grin

BraveLilBear Mon 09-Sep-13 13:04:31

This is the main reason I've not felt able to travel anywhere further than a short walk away (city centre needs bus at the moment as still not healed from birth) since DS was born 7 weeks ago.

It's just too stressful- esp with a breastfed baby who has unpredictable feeding habits. It's bad enough being on a bus with a screamy hungry baby but to have to runthe gamut of eetiquette makes it terrifying.

I would always happily get off for wheelchair users as can't fold carry cot (using car seat is problematic because I wouldn't be able to juggle all of that plus waterproof stuff etc) but being stuck at a bus stop contemplating breastfeeding with all the chavvy smokers is very stressful.

It's no wonder I've felt so reclusive thus far!

ghostspirit Mon 09-Sep-13 13:14:12

i used to breast feed my baby on the bus. i have always had a small buggy since birth they lay right back suitable from birth

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 09-Sep-13 13:14:41

Well..that is multiplied a hundredfold for wheelchair users who can't fold even if they wanted to and can't travel if buggy users refuse to fold.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 09-Sep-13 13:15:13

My post was addressed to bravelilbear

manicinsomniac Mon 09-Sep-13 13:22:56

YANBU

Be lucky you don't live in Brazil though. THe busses I was on there recently had signs stating that the front, folding seats were priority seats for (rough translation):
'pushchairs and wheelchairs
pregnant people
people with babies or young children
overweight people
people with disabilities'

In England I suspect those signs would cause a nightmare as the 60% or so of bus users that this would include fought over the seats. Luckily in Brazil, people shrug and get on with the process of getting as many people as humanly possible onto a bus regardless of health and safety, personal space or anything else.

They do help each other though. I've seen 4 adults leap off a bus to lift a wheelchair user on as most busses only have steps.

UptheChimney Mon 09-Sep-13 13:49:42

but I really thought wheelchairs had priority over buggies and that the driver HAD to make buggies fold up for wheelchairs?

YANBU

I've seen a wheelchair user refused entry to a bus because the selfish twats of parents laughed at the driver's request to fold up the buggies. So the main in the wheelchair was left at a bus stop in the pouring rain.

But I suppose, like several posters on this thread, it was just too difficult and inconvenient for these selfish people to allow this man on the bus. Twats.

UptheChimney Mon 09-Sep-13 14:15:47

*I think the order of priority goes:

1. Sleeping baby.
2. Wheelchair user.
3. Old person with Zimmer frame / person with crutches.
4. Sleeping older child.
5. Everyone else*

Please, please, please tell me this post is a wind up, and that this poster is not actually responsible for raising members of the next generation of citizens?

<Head hits desk>

twistyfeet Mon 09-Sep-13 14:18:41

where I live selfish arses often refuse to fold for wheelchairs and the drivers do fuck all. The do fuck all as grown men and women call my daughter a (and I'm going to say the words so apologies to those who have been abused) spastic and a retard. These are grown men and women, abusing a 4 - 9 year old (we've had this for years), towering over a little girl in a wheelchair. They should be fucking ashamed of themselves stood there refusing to fold, refusing to let us on the bus because they are too fucking selfish as they stand next to a sign that says 'please fold for wheelchairs' 'this is a wheelchair priority space'.
dd now knows what those words mean. She now knows whats grown men and women think of little girls in wheelchirs. Little girls who cannot walk or talk. This is why I no longer shut up on these threads but I cant shoot my mouth off in front of dd because it upsets her too much. If these threads make just one person fold or one person stand up and make someone else fold then it will help people like dd.
Just as bad are the arses who claim their contraptions 'dont fold', yeah right. Or stand there looking into space pretending you are invisible. But its frightening, not knowing if there will be verbal abuse. DD is frightened now, poor little mite sad
Which is why I post.
As you were.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 09-Sep-13 14:19:15

UpTheChimney..she later apologised and rewrote the list

UptheChimney Mon 09-Sep-13 14:34:50

Yes I saw that, but I've only just been able to lift my jaw from my desk.

And there were rather too many posts asserting her entitlement to space over that of a wheelchair user to make me feel that one post reordering the list was heartfelt.

twistyfeet I suspect I used to live in your city. I still feel ashamed I didn't march down from the back of the bus and insist that the driver stop the bus and get the nasty parents off the bus. But as they were laughing at the main in the wheelchair, and abusing the driver, I was a bit concerned about anyone's safety. But I'll never forget the image of the man sitting the, getting drenched. I hope next time ill be braver.

As a colleague of mine says, we're all only TABs: temporarily able bodied.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 09-Sep-13 14:39:08

true..it was a shocker

WorraLiberty Mon 09-Sep-13 14:44:36

Yes but even the revised list is fucked up imo as it still puts someone who is merely asleep, before someone with impaired mobility hmm

Revised list:
1. wheelchair user
2. sleeping baby
3. elderly / otherwise mobility-impaired person.
4. sleeping toddler.
5. everyone else.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 09-Sep-13 14:51:52

true.

sad

Ah, go and stew in your own self-righteousness.

And there were rather too many posts asserting her entitlement to space over that of a wheelchair user

If you're talking about me, you're simply lying.

Where did I say "IIIIIII deserve to sit there, that space is miiiiine?"

I don't even have a young baby, so you can't argue that I said my child should take precedence.

Learn to read or have the goodness not to address me or my posts, please.

MrsOakenshield Mon 09-Sep-13 14:53:03

actually, why would you give this space to an elderly or mobility-impaired person - I should think they would be entitled to a seat, rather than standing in a space?

I'm pretty sure that in London if you've paid you can get a transfer ticket if you have to get off for a reason such as giving your space to a wheelchair user, is that right? If that's the case there is absolutely no reason for anyone not to make way (if they feel they can't fold up the pram, which I accept is not always the easiest thing to do in many situations) for a wheelchair (though equally, in my many years of using London Buses, nearly 4 with a child, I've never actually seen a wheelchair user either on a bus or wanting to board one. Did see several on the tube during the paralympics, including a situation where buggies were taking precedence in using a lift which seemed pretty bloody poor).

BraveLilBear Mon 09-Sep-13 15:02:36

Fanjo - my point being that anyone who needs to use public transport with wheels would feel similarly stressed, although wheelchair users have such vlear priority one would hope it's easier for them as they are entitled.

For everyone else it's pot luck, or should be seen that way. That's how it should be- without question.

WorraLiberty Mon 09-Sep-13 15:03:21

actually, why would you give this space to an elderly or mobility-impaired person - I should think they would be entitled to a seat, rather than standing in a space?

If they had a zimmer frame for example, they'd need the seat next to the wheelchair/buggy section so they could hold the frame in the section while seated.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 09-Sep-13 15:04:35

Fair enough BLB

Peachy Mon 09-Sep-13 15:04:38

I never get people who won't fold.

I used to catch the bus every day with a double buggy; I still do now on occasion, with 4 kids (3 of which are disabled- one phobic of buses and people and has mobility issues himself).

You know what? I'd NEVER refuse to fold, no matter how hard it was for me.

Just like although I should get a blue badge I don't, so I suck it up and NEVER use the disabled parking spaces.

It's a matter of honour. I am far from uber mum- nervous, clumsy and permanently sleep deprived yes. Low on vision and socially clumsy. Trust me, if there's anything I can do, ANYONE else can manage it too.

One day I might need that space, and I hope I will have taught my boys well enough that their generation will have left it for me to use. it's self interest, just long term.

Wheelchair user
Person with mobility issues /behavioural or sensory deficit that causes them problems standing or coping
Elderly person or pregnant woman (my Dad would never sit when someone needed a seat more, he's 70 and fitter than I am)

and then....

I would always offer the chair I had to someone with any child, sleeping or not, if I had no child with me, and Dh and the NT boy follow a strict 'if someone is older than me they get precedence' code.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 09-Sep-13 15:05:12

Basically..wheelchair users take priority...for the rest..just use common decency and common sense I think.

WorraLiberty Mon 09-Sep-13 15:05:53

Sorry, forgot to add this to my last post...

I'm pretty sure that in London if you've paid you can get a transfer ticket if you have to get off for a reason such as giving your space to a wheelchair user, is that right?

No it's not right because you don't have to get off the bus. You can fold your buggy etc.

If you have a buggy that's non foldable, then that's the risk you take when entering a bus with it and using the wheelchair section.

It's much more sensible to use an easy fold stroller on buses imo.

Peachy Mon 09-Sep-13 15:07:37

And I disagree it's how it should be without question

Manners maketh man (and woman) and all that

Wheelchair user does NOT cover all disability or need. I'd die of shame before I allowed a pregnant woman to stand whilst I sat, or someone with another need if they explained it- my 10 year old ds sits on my lap on buses but looks NT (ish), yet falls if a bus wobbles. Therefore a lot of other people will be of similar need and if I can help I will. Dh or I will sit with ds3, and asd ds4, and the other will stand and offer our seat if needed.

Dawndonnaagain Mon 09-Sep-13 15:18:24

DD posted this last year.
I'm fifteen. I use a wheelchair. Today I wanted to go to the city with my friends. Mum had an operation yesterday so can't drive me. My twin sister thought she could get me on the bus. I have come home. It's dry,but a bit windy and I started to get a bit too cold. The first two buses had buggies on and both of them were 'well, she's a kid just going to hang about in the city whilst we need to shop for our babies'. The third one didn't have a ramp. Yes, I could have waited for another but I get hypothermia. It's half eleven now and I'm only just warming up. My twin is typing this for me.

Do you know, Mum has been rattling on about this crap on Mumsnet for days, to be honest, I wish most of you would piss off and shut up. Mum feels she needs to defend me and somedays she does, today, she wouldn't have put up with the bus stuff, but I'm fifteen, and whilst I'm incredibly articulate, I find it difficult to have to state my case in front of thirty odd adult strangers on a bus. Why should I? Well, for all those reasons stated by the so called pompous gits on here, I get hypothermia, there is only one space, it's none of your business to question my motives for getting the bus. It's actually none of your business to open negotiations as to who should or should not stay on the bus.

Unlike Mum, I shan't be coming back to check on this. I am made aware on a daily basis that there are many, many rude and selfish adults out there, I don't need it in my home too, because that's what the internet does, it brings this sort of bullying into my home.

twistyfeet Mon 09-Sep-13 15:19:39

MrsOakenshield I use London buses all the time in a wheelchair. I shall wave at you. I dont use the tube because most of it isnt accessible. That is probably why you havent seen wheelchair users down there.

hazeyjane Mon 09-Sep-13 15:20:36

A 4 year old in a buggy may well be disabled. A lot of sn buggies look like ordinary buggies. They shouldn't have to fold.

Yes but then you'd tell the driver that you're unable to fold, wouldn't you?

Unfortunately not all drivers (or passengers ) listen to you. I had to get off the bus and miss an appointment with ds once, because a pram wouldn't fold . Ds was in a buggy and asleep, he has sn, but at the time was ina standard buggy. It was a 40 minute journey, so i knew that if I had woken him he would have screamed for the entire time. The annoying thing was the woman with the pram had the baby on her lap, and still wouldn't fold! Because ds was older, the driver said we would have to fold.

A regular scenario for me when DS was small and in a disabled buggy that people for some reason fail to accept as such and like to think big buggy, when buggy crew wouldn't fold was to ask the driver to wait until I was on and seated. Then I used to take DS out of his buggy lay him on the cold dirty floor, where he was at risk of further infection etc attached to his oxygen tank as he couldn't sit. Go back for the rest of his equipment and bag, go back then fold the disabled buggy with detached hood, footrest and apron as it couldn't be folded with these on, yes it took some time to organise and was a nightmare in winter but when you've got to get to the hospital on time what else could I do. I then used to sit back and allow the uproar of the mixed emotions and rights of the bus, then have to do it all again to get off. All I can say for those who drive of course is thankfully they revised the criteria for under 2s needing equipment, the first few years were a real struggle..........not that it's got much better but that's a different story. The problem is commen sense can't be read, you either have it or you don't, same with morals. Strangely it affects all walks of life, young, old, rich, poor.......

StHelenInPerson Mon 09-Sep-13 16:03:38

If the bus gets very busy then maybe i would fold my buggy,I would give up my seat for an elderly person or anyone who clearly needed it more than me.
other able bodies people should give up their seat too and not solely the responsibility of the person with a toddler and buggy.

Tbf I have folded my buggy before so my toddler can sit on a seat but then had no where to put my buggy.hmmso then iv took up the same floor space and an extra seat for dc,sitting on my knee may be an option too.

I wouldn't ever wake my toddler either just to fold a buggy unless for a wheelchair user for all you know they have had a long day and need that sleep.

UptheChimney Mon 09-Sep-13 16:30:45

dawndonna i remember your daughter's post. I hope that hasn't happened again to her?

hazeyjane Mon 09-Sep-13 16:31:41

Also the buggy we have now, which is a sn one, doesn't fold, and the buses around here are a nightmare, some with no buggy or wheelchair spaces and some with such limited space that there is no access unless you can fold.

Dobbiesmum Mon 09-Sep-13 17:00:43

Due to some spectacularly bad planning on my part I ended up with a sleeping toddler and a loaded up buggy on a busy bus a few weeks ago. There was another mum on next to me with a double buggy -the type with one in front of another-. When we got to a stop with a lady pushing a young girl in a wheelchair the mum next to me immediately said "I can't fold the buggy up'. Well neither could I really, we could have walked to our destination by the time I'd got sorted so we (me and the DC's) got off. The driver validated the tickets so we could get on the next bus. It was simple enough to do and another bus turned up within minutes.
Don't see why it's a big deal myself..

Dawndonnaagain Mon 09-Sep-13 17:07:38

UptheChimney
Unfortunately, a couple of times. Having said that, on her birthday her friends got together, got her on a bus without her chair and stuck her on another friends longboard (a longer skateboard for the aged among us) and pushed and pulled her round the city and to the pizza place, they all had a whale of a time and dd said it made her feel great because she felt people were looking because she was doing it for fun rather than necessity.

Yonididnaedaethat Mon 09-Sep-13 17:15:44

I was once refused on a bus with my buggy as there was a group of special need adults sitting in the space I needed to go, the driver and the carer that was with them asked them nicely to move.....the group all said no! I had to get off and wait on the next bus, at the time my DS wasn't walking, I had shopping that would have tipped the buggy the minute the buggy was empty, and I was also pregnant. Honestly could've cried waiting the 30 mins until the next bus came along. I'm just glad now my DH works closer to home so I have the car during the day.

Surely it's more simple than all this weird unspoken etiquette BS!

* wheelchairs have priority by law

* If there are no wheelchairs needing to get on then do what you like, as long as you're not sticking out in the aisle like the woman the op is talking about*

End of, surely?

I'm so glad I never realized people got their knickers in such a twist over this when I was living in a hostel with DS & catching the bus everyday as we were miles from the shops. I'd have most likely given up there & then hmm

Turniptwirl Mon 09-Sep-13 17:39:27

Wheelchair trumps buggy, of course. Even if you have to fold the buggy or get off and wait for the next bus.

I've seen bus drivers refuse to take soneone with a buggy as there were already 2 on board. Other times I've seen much drama as people have to fold buggies as no space.

I do agree with whoever said old ladies with trolleys are as bad tho! They can be lifted into the luggage space (I'm happy to help with this!) but noooooo they must sit at their owners side and get in the way, appsrentlt

UptheChimney Mon 09-Sep-13 17:49:46

Unfortunately, a couple of times

dawndonna I'm really sorry to read that. But great to hear of her happy day in town. The people with disabilities I've known have all had extraordinary personalities to counteract the way people have treated them.

I remember the thread your daughter posted on. There were several mummies vociferously arguing that their need to transport their children on the bus with "travel systems" which couldn't be got out of the way for a wheelchair user was more important than someone using a wheelchair.

FGS, in my day old fogey alert we had lightweight "city strollers" for the bus and train, which opened & shut as easily as an umbrella, and good old prams for walking.

RoonilWazlibWuvsHermyown Mon 09-Sep-13 17:56:30

It seems even bus companies are confused as to whether it is law or just good manners. After a bit of googling:

"Arriva

When not required by a wheelchair or scooter customer, the wheelchair space on accessible buses can be used by up to two buggies, prams or pushchairs. Use of the wheelchair space by any customer is subject at all times to enough space being available and the discretion of the driver.

During travel, buggies, prams, pushchairs, wheelchairs and scooters must be securely positioned so that they are stable and do not cause an obstruction or hazard to other customers. Drivers will advise of any circumstances where it is not possible to allow customers to travel safely; this includes their own health, that of the customer, other passengers, members of the public, or the security of the vehicle and its equipment.

The driver can require that pushchairs and all types of buggies are folded at busy times, or to request occupants of the designated area to move elsewhere on the vehicle if a customer wishes to board with a wheelchair or scooter. You should co-operate in allowing proper use of this space by vacating it if necessary in favour of a wheelchair or scooter user.

Stagecoach

Subject to space being available and the discretion of the driver, we will carry small prams and unfolded buggies on low floor buses within the designated area but only when it is not required by a passenger in a wheelchair or approved mobility scooter who has absolute priority by law. Prams and buggies must not block the aisle of the vehicle at any time.

You are, however, required by law to ensure that the designated wheelchair space is made available if a customer wishes to board with a wheelchair, a disabled buggy or approved mobility scooter.

You are required to co-operate in allowing proper use of the designated wheelchair space by vacating this space if it is required by a customer in a wheelchair, a disabled buggy or approved mobility scooter including repositioning small prams, folding any buggies and storing them in the luggage space. Failure to comply with this requirement will comprise a breach of Section 3 above and may lead to further action as set out in that Section.

EYMS

Can I take a pushchair or pram on board the bus?
When not occupied by wheelchairs, the space provided may be used for a pushchair. At busy times you may be asked to fold the pushchair. Priority should always be given to wheelchairs. For safety reasons pushchairs, shopping trolleys etc. must never block or partly block any gangway. Only pushchairs and baby buggies which can be folded are permitted on our buses. Non-folding pushchairs and prams cannot be carried.

First Group

Wheelchair users have priority use of the wheelchair space. If this is occupied with a buggy, standing passengers or otherwise full, and there is space elsewhere on the vehicle, the driver will ask that it is made free for a wheelchair user. Please note that the driver has no power to compel passengers to move in this way and is reliant upon the goodwill of the passengers concerned.

Unfortunately, if a fellow passenger refuses to move you will need to wait for the next bus."

But they do all make it clear that a wheelchair has priority in a wheelchair space.

(I chose these bus companies as they are ones I've heard of or used).

elliejjtiny Mon 09-Sep-13 18:59:08

Most of the bus drivers where I live (first) won't even ask people to fold their buggies. They just say "already got 2 buggies on the bus, sorry" and drive off. I've complained several times but they just say it's the driver's discretion.

firesidechat Mon 09-Sep-13 19:57:23

When I was a young mum, a very long time ago, you had to fold your pushchair when you got on a bus. There was no discussion about it and everyone did it as a matter of course. I didn't drive then and used a bus frequently with a baby and a toddler. Somehow we all managed. How times have changed.

elliejjtiny Mon 09-Sep-13 20:27:23

Just wondering if buses travel faster now than they did in the days when everyone had to fold their buggies?

I folded my buggy this afternoon on the bus and sat DS3 (2.5) beside me and DS4 (3 months) on my lap. DS3 was sitting nicely, not fidgeting at all but I had to hang on to him quite firmly to stop him falling off the seat, especially going round the roundabouts. I feel he is much safer in the buggy where he can be strapped in.

Spikeytree Mon 09-Sep-13 20:28:33

My mum used to fold the buggy at the bus stop before the bus arrived, then carry me and the pram up the steps onto the bus when it arrived. With four other kids. And no hip joint in one side. Dad couldn't help because he was in a wheelchair and therefore couldn't access public transport at all, so he had to stay at home.

If you can't fold your buggy, you need to take the hit. Not expect people with disabilities to give up their hard fought for access to public transport to enable your incompetence.

bababababoom Mon 09-Sep-13 20:32:07

YAB completely U to expect people to fold buggies when there is no reason to. But yes, the person you mention should have unclipped the buggy board. And people should fold it or get off the bus if someone with a wheelchair needs the space.

I'm not happy to hand my baby to a stranger while I fold the pushchair, but on occasion I've had to. People don't offer to help. It usually involves unpacking everything that's under the pushchair, taking the damn thing apart, while baby screams because she doesn't know what's going on. And 2 other children under 6 needing to be looked after on a busy bus where there may not be a seat. It's not even safe juggling a baby and 2 others if we're all standing.

But - you're right about people with big kids in buggies - why would a 4 year old need a buggy anyway unless they have special needs? Mine have walked everywhere from the age of about 2. What does annoy me is when these people are taking up the buggy space and don't free it up, but watch someone with a newborn and complicated travel system struggle to fold the pram.

candycoatedwaterdrops Tue 10-Sep-13 07:48:57

bababababoom The OP wasn't saying people should fold buggies if there's no need to, only if the bus is busy and I agree.

Wishfulmakeupping Tue 10-Sep-13 07:54:54

It would be impossible for me to fold up my dd pram, but if a wheelchair user needed that space I'd get off the bus I'd expect my fare back though think that's fair enough.
I've not been able to get on the bus before though twice when people have been sat in the pram space seats and I've asked the driver loudly is there not any space for pram. Both times the driver didn't ask people to love to empty seats so I've waited for next one luckily ours are every 10 mins

Wishfulmakeupping Tue 10-Sep-13 07:58:07

Move not love

PuddingAndHotMilk Tue 10-Sep-13 08:10:20

Apologies I've not read the whole thread (inly about half of it) so this point may have been made up thread. I agree wheelchair users have priority but with a newborn in a bassinet, the footprint of the bassinet isn't reduced once the base is folded.
Clearly if the space was needed for a wheelchair I'd get off, but folding wouldn't help in this scenario. Very different from toddler in mclaren buggy IMHO.

kungfupannda Tue 10-Sep-13 08:23:57

I've never understood why people don't do everything they can to make life easy on themselves when it comes to babies/toddlers and public transport. When I lived in London I travelled by bus a lot. My friend and I always did exactly the same thing every time we were getting a bus.

Get to bus-stop.
Stick baby in sling.
Fold buggy.
Get on bus.

It took all the stress out of it. You weren't craning your neck as the bus arrived to see if there was going to be a space or not. You didn't have to squeeze down the aisle and have an argument with someone else with an unfolded buggy. You didn't have to get off when a wheelchair user required use of the space that is intended for them. And you never felt that you were on the bus under sufferance. It just became part of our routine.

I appreciate that not everyone can use slings - back problems etc - but the vast majority of people are capable of finding some sort of solution. There is a huge range of buggies out there - some of which are specifically designed to fold easily and be light to carry. Obviously some people are given a buggy and can't afford to replace it - but a huge number of people on buses with non-folding buggies will have gone out and chosen that particular buggy for whatever reason.

The bottom line is that the space is for wheelchair users. Buggy users are only allowed in it on the basis that they vacate it, by folding or leaving the bus, if it is required for its actual purpose. Given that you could therefore be asked to fold/get off at any time, why not make sure you can do so without a whole lot of stress and panic when it happens?

Mumom0 Tue 10-Sep-13 09:07:56

In the olden days when the busses had steps, I used to hand the baby to the driver while I got the buggy and shopping on to the bus. This was good as he couldnt drive off till i was finished. Then around the time if the introduction of accessible busses they stopped holding baby's (elf safety) and suggested a passenger hold them . There is always someone willing, usually the most terrifying looking stinky people, I preferred to keep hold of the baby and struggle.

The new busses are fab, parents with small children have done well out if the disability discrimination legislation, and why not? There is always an assumption that new parents are never going anywhere important and can be messed around, wait for the next one etc.

Folding buggies when shopping is not always so easy. and we have got used to the fact that we probably won't have to with the new busses, so it can be a bit of a surprise., the toddler/ baby is basically ballast. Take them out and the whole thing tips over, shopping all over the floor , added to that many mothers are just knackred , bordering on tears and just don't have the energy.

Therealamandaclarke Tue 10-Sep-13 09:28:28

I sometimes use the bus with my two DCs. DS loves it. And of course, we are encouraged to use public transport.
I put baby DD in a sling and toddler DS walks. Sometimes we buy a small bag of groceries while we're out.
If I HAD to use the bus to get about or do my shopping I would be derranged by the stress of it. I take my hat off to ppl who organise all of that. I used a small buggy once (the walk was too long for the sling) and luckily, no one needed the space, another buggy user boarded and there was room for us all - hurrah! I had the bottom of hebuggy and handles laden with fruit and veg and nappies (I live a glamorous life). It would have been extraordinarily difficult to empty the buggy and fold it while holding a wriggly baby and supervising a toddler. If the bus were crowded it wouldn't have been possible. When there's no room to move it's barely possible to safely get on and off the thing.
If a wheelchair user had boarded I would have done my best. And if someone needs a seat more than I do then they're welcome to it.
But you know what? Sometimes the bus if full. It just is full. And you have to wait for the next one.
Otherwise, every time a bus is full and more ppl are waiting we will need a grading system to determine the "deserving" ppl who can get on and the less so who would be thrown off.

Cheeriosfortotoro Tue 10-Sep-13 10:18:09

i was on a bus the other day with 1yr old dd in pushchair and got off as a guy in a wheelchair needed to get on. bus driver told him there was no space i was a bitshock at bus driver and gave up my space as he needed it more than me. its just something i do without thinking, even if its raining. i guess drivers cant ask you to give up your seat? i dont have a long journey though.

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 10-Sep-13 10:25:36

Mumom..it doesnt matter if they are knackered. They just need to fold or get off if a wheelchair user gets on..as its a wheelchair space not a buggy space.

It can suck but have done it myself lots..it's just how things are and how the law is too.

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 10-Sep-13 10:26:27

And therealamanda..the bus shouldn't be just full to a wheelchair user just because buggies are in space.

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 10-Sep-13 10:30:59

And my DD is not in a wheelchair.

It's fine to use the space if its not needed for wheelchair. It's fine of course if wheelchair user decides to let you have it if your child is asleep.

But it isn't fine to expect it and say tough..sometimes the bus is just full.

Therealamandaclarke Tue 10-Sep-13 10:33:48

No, but sometimes buses are fit to bursting with ppl standing. They're filling the whole floor space, even without buggies.
So although that space is to be prioritised for a person in a wheelchair (quite rightly) it is sometimes just chock full of bods.
Then the bus is full.
Similarly (although without the legal issues I guess) the "priority" seats near the front are to be given up to ppl who are "less able" to stand.
But if a couple of wobbly -on- their feet ppl were waiting T the bus stop, I don't imagine the driver should evacuate those seats in an otherwise super crowded bus.

Therealamandaclarke Tue 10-Sep-13 10:35:26

Ting off would definitely be easier than folding e buggy in some situations. I imagine that's what i'd do.
Just wondering what happens if the space is full of ppl standing up.
Has anyone seen that?

twistyfeet Tue 10-Sep-13 10:44:40

'It would be impossible for me to fold up my dd pram'

Having had this excuse thrown at me several times I'm interesting in knowing the answer without having to deal with the R word. Do they make non-folding buggies now? 20 years ago I had a Maclaren double buggy you could fold with one hand while holding a baby under one arm. The shopping went on the ground. Its possible engineers were braineir back then of course and could make folding buggies. So dont they fold anymore? I've noticed many buggies are huge. Some are even the same size as dd's wheelchair for a teeny baby. I'm shock cos a giant thing on wheels is a burden and takes up room in your house when it cant be folded an.d is a frigging nuisance.

Just out of curiosity, where does a mum pushing a buggy who has her own disability come into your list?

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 10-Sep-13 11:17:51

if its full of bodies then they would also need to get off or move back.

Therealamandaclarke Tue 10-Sep-13 11:40:37

Well they'd need to get off, as moving back would not be possible.
Because the bus is full.
I just wonder if anyone's seen that happen. And how it's managed.
Who has to get off?the ppl standing in the space or others who might be more "able"
I would hope and expect that these things "sort themselves out" with ppl recognising it would be best to disembark as they don't have many stops left or are in a better position to walk or whatever.
Some ppl are very considerate. But some much less so, as we've all doubtless seen.
I just wonder if there's a "system"
Must be potentially awkward.

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 10-Sep-13 11:41:21

well..the driver shouldn't have allowed so many people on that the wheelchair space was full of standing people, tbh.

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 10-Sep-13 11:42:02

"Just out of curiosity, where does a mum pushing a buggy who has her own disability come into your list"

well..where do you think, if she has a disability?

Therealamandaclarke Tue 10-Sep-13 11:43:15

And then how do you get past the crowd on the bus to get baby, shopping, toddler and folded pram off?

This is why ppl avoid public transport (well, one of thereasons)

Therealamandaclarke Tue 10-Sep-13 11:45:14

I don't know. Wouldit depend on her disability?

<exits minefield>

Therealamandaclarke Tue 10-Sep-13 11:47:21

Well obviously fanjo but it happens a lot.
So I wondered if anyone has ever seen it managed or explain how it might work.
Doesn't have to be you.

NK493efc93X1277dd3d6d4 Tue 10-Sep-13 11:48:09

When my eldest was young this was the only option and so you folded buggy at the bus stop, picked up baby buggy & shopping before you got on. Baby's under 6 months were in prams and so the mother walked everywhere. When my younger were born I always regarded being able to wheel pushchair on as a luxury!

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 10-Sep-13 11:50:00

well..it can be me, I assume?

i would suggest in that case, the people who are considerate and decent, and able would get off, I would hope.

Therealamandaclarke Tue 10-Sep-13 11:52:01

Yes nk walking with the pram is my preferred option.
Less easy with toddler in tow. Thank goodness for buggy boards.

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 10-Sep-13 11:54:27

it's not a minefield though, its a matter of having common decency and also respecting the law, and making common sense decisions. Shouldn't be a minefield.

AdmiralData Tue 10-Sep-13 11:56:20

worraliberty "You ask a passenger to help you. As a rule, they're normally only too willing"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Where do you live? Passengers on buses where I live will watch you struggle quite happily >:}

eretrew Tue 10-Sep-13 12:04:18

YANBU and I'm amazed and the number of women who claim they can't/ don't know how to fold buggies although I suspected its learned helplessness.

candycoatedwaterdrops Tue 10-Sep-13 12:22:33

Admiral Have you ever asked outright and been ignored?

jacks365 Tue 10-Sep-13 12:22:46

I gave no consideration to how easy a pushchair is to fold despite using public transport a lot. I've even used a large coach built pram on buses but the key point is that I always get off for wheelchairs without a second thought. I have sometimes folded to let another pram on but our buses do not have luggage areas to put a folded pushchair into so getting off and walking is my preference. The main town is only 5 miles and I can walk that but a wheelchair user. I have though seen some really inconsiderate parents, I folded my travel system once, left dd in car seat as she was asleep to let a double on while the other bay was taken up with a little folding buggy. 2 mins later child was out of buggy but they still didn't fold

jacks365 Tue 10-Sep-13 12:25:32

Wheelchair user can't

RoonilWazlibWuvsHermyown Tue 10-Sep-13 12:26:45

If your pram doesn't fold, you shouldn't use it on a bus. Its that simple.

Morgause Tue 10-Sep-13 13:32:43

Buses have a limit as to how many passengers they can carry and a notice specifies how many standing passengers. If a bus has the maximum number on board the driver drives past bus stops until someone gets off.

A driver isn't going to stop a bus and throw off paying passengers to let anyone on, not even a wheelchair user, if it's already full. I doubt the driver would even notice who was waiting, to be fair.

I have to correct the information I gave about our local buses. There are 4 buggy spaces (drop down seat) and 1 wheelchair space - room for 2 buggies if not occupied. I think that's pretty good.

CeliaLytton Tue 10-Sep-13 13:37:16

I can't believe anyone is saying that if a baby is asleep there is no option but to get off the bus! What about, I don't know, WAKING THE BABY? FFS.

Off now before my head explodes.

0utnumbered Tue 10-Sep-13 14:31:55

Everyone will probably have a go at me but I dread having to fold my pushchair - if I have the money I deliberately buy a day saver so I have the option to get off the bus and wait for another if a wheelchair user needs to get on. I have a double pushchair with a 2 year old and a 3 month old, my 2 year old is small for his age and struggles to sit on the seat without falling off when the bus is moving and I don't even know how I would manage to hold my baby and fold a pushchair with my changing bag and shopping at the same time!

The rule about wheelchair users having priority in my opinion is unfair - if you CAN fold your buggy then you do it out of courtesy but making it a rule is dodgy - there are disabilities that aren't visible or don't need a wheelchair that would make folding a pushchair and holding a child very very difficult, such as arthritis or like what I have, a nervous condition that causes my hands and wrists to go numb sometimes. Also, young disabled children often use pushchairs rather than wheelchairs so this is also something to take into account. I think it should just be first come first serve, no room for debate there!

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 10-Sep-13 14:40:54

Well, just as well the law disagrees with you then.

RoonilWazlibWuvsHermyown Tue 10-Sep-13 14:40:57

If it was first come, first serve, wheelchair users would have no chance of getting on the bus. There are so many more buggies that unless the person with a wheelchair was boarding the bus at the end of the line and was at the front of a queue, they would never be able to come first to get the one spot that they can use on the bus so would never get to travel.

Nooo celia they explode if you do that, well known fact

jacks365 Tue 10-Sep-13 14:50:10

My legs work fine but I have arthritis in my shoulder so walking instead is easier for me than folding. I fold as a last resort I.e. if the weather is that bad and a reduced timetable means next bus is a long wait.

Dawndonnaagain Tue 10-Sep-13 14:51:40

*outnumbered, please go back and read my dds post. Then think again.

Runningchick123 Tue 10-Sep-13 15:00:19

Outnumbered - there is nothing unfair about wheelchairs having priority use of the space, those spaces were created FOR wheelchair users und the disability act. There isn't such thing as a parent with pushchair act so you don't have priority to use the space, but should be thankful that you can use it if not required by a wheelchair user. FFS what did people do before we had accessible buses to accommodate WHEELCHAIRS; even back then people had arthritis etc and managed to get on buses with buggies folded up.

"The rule about wheelchair users having priority in my opinion is unfair - if you CAN fold your buggy then you do it out of courtesy but making it a rule is dodgy - there are disabilities that aren't visible or don't need a wheelchair that would make folding a pushchair and holding a child very very difficult, such as arthritis or like what I have, a nervous condition that causes my hands and wrists to go numb sometimes"

As someone with a similar invisible disability I get where you are coming from, but realistically we have more options than the wheelchair user where public transport is concerned. That's why the rule exists, we can use alternative carrying options (eg slings), we can ask other people for help folding pushchairs. It's not easy by any stretch, I know that all too well. But a wheelchair user has no other options at all.

"The rule about wheelchair users having priority in my opinion is unfair - if you CAN fold your buggy then you do it out of courtesy but making it a rule is dodgy - there are disabilities that aren't visible or don't need a wheelchair that would make folding a pushchair and holding a child very very difficult, such as arthritis or like what I have, a nervous condition that causes my hands and wrists to go numb sometimes"

As someone with a similar invisible disability I get where you are coming from, but realistically we have more options than the wheelchair user where public transport is concerned. That's why the rule exists, we can use alternative carrying options (eg slings), we can ask other people for help folding pushchairs. It's not easy by any stretch, I know that all too well. But a wheelchair user has no other options at all.

"The rule about wheelchair users having priority in my opinion is unfair - if you CAN fold your buggy then you do it out of courtesy but making it a rule is dodgy - there are disabilities that aren't visible or don't need a wheelchair that would make folding a pushchair and holding a child very very difficult, such as arthritis or like what I have, a nervous condition that causes my hands and wrists to go numb sometimes"

As someone with a similar invisible disability I get where you are coming from, but realistically we have more options than the wheelchair user where public transport is concerned. That's why the rule exists, we can use alternative carrying options (eg slings), we can ask other people for help folding pushchairs. It's not easy by any stretch, I know that all too well. But a wheelchair user has no other options at all.

"The rule about wheelchair users having priority in my opinion is unfair - if you CAN fold your buggy then you do it out of courtesy but making it a rule is dodgy - there are disabilities that aren't visible or don't need a wheelchair that would make folding a pushchair and holding a child very very difficult, such as arthritis or like what I have, a nervous condition that causes my hands and wrists to go numb sometimes"

As someone with a similar invisible disability I get where you are coming from, but realistically we have more options than the wheelchair user where public transport is concerned. That's why the rule exists, we can use alternative carrying options (eg slings), we can ask other people for help folding pushchairs. It's not easy by any stretch, I know that all too well. But a wheelchair user has no other options at all.

CeliaLytton Tue 10-Sep-13 15:06:59

I have never once been on public transport and not had someone offer to help, or to hold DCs while I fold buggy. Also, if you have a medical condition meaning you can't fold a buggy then you are as entitled to the space as a wheelchair user, just show your blue badge to the driver when you board. Simple.

Peachy Tue 10-Sep-13 15:10:56

People said if bus is full...

that might work where service is good, having lived rurally and had to walk 7 miles home along an A road with no footpath in December, with a buggy and trailer thing, I'd say much easier to either use sling or buy a lie back easy fold buggy early on.

In this case bus was full and just didn't stop (last bus was at six!), but same scenario for wheeelchair user if full, and they'd often struggle with a taxi as well ((where I was just broke)

Oh dear god.. sorry.. damn computer blush

jacks365 Tue 10-Sep-13 15:15:38

Celia having a medical condition that means you can struggle to fold does not always entitle you to a blue badge also the wheelchair bay is for wheelchairs not blue badge holders. Blue badge holders can usually sit elsewhere a wheelchair can't.

jacks365 Tue 10-Sep-13 15:16:45

Murderofgoths its the day for it blame mn. Someone on another thread posted about 10 times.

twistyfeet Tue 10-Sep-13 15:32:32

'The rule about wheelchair users having priority in my opinion is unfair - if you CAN fold your buggy then you do it out of courtesy but making it a rule is dodgy - there are disabilities that aren't visible or don't need a wheelchair that would make folding a pushchair and holding a child very very difficult, such as arthritis or like what I have, a nervous condition that causes my hands and wrists to go numb sometimes. Also, young disabled children often use pushchairs rather than wheelchairs so this is also something to take into account. I think it should just be first come first serve, no room for debate there!'

Unfair? You chose to have children. no-one chooses a disability ffs. That has to be the most stupid thing I've read today. Precious parents outnumber wheelchair users so we'd be waiting all fucking day while the 'oh I cant fold, I'm much to precious' brigade occupied the WHEELCHAIR space.
It is not unfair, it is a wheelchair space campaigend for by disabled people for decades. You want your own special buses, spend decades campaigning for them. But you wont. You want our spaces. And in a few short years when we are still in fucking wheelchairs dealing with more parents like yourselves bleating about how unfair it all is, you will have forgotten all this.

But people are assuming here that a wheelchair user has no mobility at all. This is not neccessarily true, if they just can't walk far, they could be more capable of folding their chair than someone with an alternate non-wheelchair-needing disability is if folding a pram and juggling a baby?

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 10-Sep-13 15:33:16

you are talking about wheelchair users having to fold their chairs for people with prams?

Are you actually being serious?

Fanjo, I did specifically say that some, not all, wheelchair users could be more capable of folding their chairs than some, not all, disabled-but-not-in-a-wheelchair mums.

Do you disagree with that exact statement?

I did not say, first come first served, me and my pfb were here first so get someone to fold your chair and carry you on.

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 10-Sep-13 15:43:23

Yes i disagree with that statement, and think it is ridiculous.

jacks365 Tue 10-Sep-13 15:47:57

Beyond I am one of those non wheelchair using people with a disability, I suffer from arthritis so badly in one shoulder that at times I can not use my arm at all. I also suffered a minor stroke last year but wheelchair users take priority because there is nothing wrong with my legs.

Ok then.

So you know where I'm coming from, I know people who have the exact condition as me, to the exact extent as me, who choose to use a wheelchair. I choose to struggle with a pushchair and be in pain.
So if there were two of me, one had a pram and baby and the other a wheelchair, no questions, the place should always go to the person in the chair?

I understand and of course agree that someone who is immobile should get the priority every single time. I just think there is room for a bit of thought in the less obvious cases.

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 10-Sep-13 15:52:09

well if there were two of you, and you are disabled, then it would be ideal if there were two spaces. Daft expecting person with chair to try and fold though.

Jacks, people can be in wheelchairs without there being anything wrong with their legs. If it were legs vs arm problems, of course legs would "win" for a wheelchair space

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 10-Sep-13 15:55:33

its not about their ability, its about their being room for their wheelchair to fit on the bus anyway. Don't see lots of people on bus in folding wheelchairs tbh.

jacks365 Tue 10-Sep-13 15:55:58

Beyond you can ask for help and sit in a regular seat much easier than someone in a wheelchair can. I choose in most instances to walk instead thats my choice. As I stated earlier those are wheelchair bays not bays for disabled people, they have different seats that they get priority for.

Of course, even if each case were decided individually, there would be no way to know anyway, unless everyone had badges declaring their exact disability and how it affected them! I guess it just bugs me that people assume everyone in a wheelchair is completely immobile and everyone who isnt is absolutely fine.

jacks365 Tue 10-Sep-13 15:59:52

Beyond I do not know anyone in a wheelchair who chooses to be in one and put up with all the fuss and inconvenience when it isn't needed.

I didnt say it isnt needed, I said they are not completely immobile, its not the same thing.

catgirl1976 Tue 10-Sep-13 16:05:36

I'd fold my buggy to make space for anyone in a wheelchair and I would move my buggy if it was obstructing the aisle.

I wouldn't fold it for much else though, it is a total PITA, especially on a moving bus with a boisterous toddler

catgirl1976 Tue 10-Sep-13 16:05:36

I'd fold my buggy to make space for anyone in a wheelchair and I would move my buggy if it was obstructing the aisle.

I wouldn't fold it for much else though, it is a total PITA, especially on a moving bus with a boisterous toddler

catgirl1976 Tue 10-Sep-13 16:05:37

I'd fold my buggy to make space for anyone in a wheelchair and I would move my buggy if it was obstructing the aisle.

I wouldn't fold it for much else though, it is a total PITA, especially on a moving bus with a boisterous toddler

catgirl1976 Tue 10-Sep-13 16:05:37

I'd fold my buggy to make space for anyone in a wheelchair and I would move my buggy if it was obstructing the aisle.

I wouldn't fold it for much else though, it is a total PITA, especially on a moving bus with a boisterous toddler

FreyaSnow Tue 10-Sep-13 16:07:11

I couldn't possibly fold my pushchair, wake my baby or get off the bus for a wheelchair user because my baby is the infant messiah.

Back to the Op though, as the wheelchair thing is hypothetical in my case anyway (as I said in my first post), I wouldnt fold a pram just because the bus is full, any more than I assume you would expect someone in a wheelchair to fold if the bus was full?

Before I was ill, I would have though.

jacks365 Tue 10-Sep-13 16:10:49

Where do you suggest they put the wheelchair beyond? Because our local buses the only place it would go even if folded is the wheelchair bay so you still couldn't get a pram in it.

jacks365 Tue 10-Sep-13 16:15:30

I avoid rush hour with the pram for that very reason when ever possible. I always leave earlier or later. I had to once and got stuck on the bus because a load of school kids wouldn't get out of the way, folding would not have helped.

There's quite a bit of room on our buses, can fit four skinny buggies, two big prams or two wheelchairs. I would assume the folded wheelchairs would go wherever the folded prams are supposed to go? Apart from that, I don't know. If there is literally nowhere to put a folded pram though, where is the disabled-non-wheelchair-needing mum supposed to put hers?

CharlieCoCo Tue 10-Sep-13 16:29:32

i think some people also forget u might have more than one child and u might (most likely) also have bags, things under, over buggy so u cant fold, have the bags a child and sleeping baby/toddler on you.
i am also thinking of the number of people i have seen in London who have taken their sleeping child out of a buggy, had the bag, folded up the buggy, to make more room for a 3rd buggy or more standers. i actually haven't.
i hate going on buses with the buggy and try to avoid it but sometimes u can't (just like u), i always feel like people think i shouldnt be on it, when i have as much right as anyone else. ob i dont get on if a wheelchair is on, i rarely get on if another buggy is on or people are standing in the buggy area. im considerate, but i hate the attitude of people who think people with buggies are second rate citizens (and im a nanny not a parent so its not like i necessarily control the buggy/destination) and if i have a sleeping toddler, school bag, handbag/ toddler bag and whatever else under the buggy, im not going to be folding! i dont take priority over a wheelchair user though (though i dont think its right wed have to get off and pay for another bus, there should be a way where u can get a ticket to use on another bus, what if u had no more money on oyster card when u did in fact have enough to get home. thats what i dont think is fair!

twistyfeet Tue 10-Sep-13 16:35:14

how about the 'its not fair' people campaign for places for folded buggies, onward tickets, drivers who help you fold?
Like we had to campaign for wheelchair spaces. But no, its so much easier to use the wheelchair space. After all, your issue disappears after a few short years.
Parents have a powerful voice, use it. But they didnt, even for the decades when all buses were steps only and you had to fold. It was disabled people who campaigned for step free access and wheelchair spaces.

CharlieCoCo Tue 10-Sep-13 19:54:45

thing is people are allowed to stand in that area when it is vacant so y cant buggies go there-which they are allowed to and have a right to when it is vacant.

RoonilWazlibWuvsHermyown Tue 10-Sep-13 19:58:37

Because its a wheelchair space. For wheelchair users. Who have priority over buggies.

CuriosityCola Tue 10-Sep-13 20:01:58

The buses in Edinburgh give you a ticket if you have to get off. I thought it was the same everywhere.

I used to take ds in the carrier or leave him strapped in the buggy. He would never sit still and I decided people would rather hate me for taking up too much space, than have a baby climbing all over them and screaming smile

candycoatedwaterdrops Tue 10-Sep-13 20:14:45

"It's not fair." How old are some of you?!
Life with a buggy and lots of bags is a temporary challenge and not nearly as 'unfair' as navigating life with a disability in a very disability-unfriendly society.

Therealamandaclarke Tue 10-Sep-13 20:57:11

I think a buggy user should fold or disembark to make room for a wheelchair user. But not just because the bus is busy.
If they folded and went elsewhere, the non- wheelchair/ buggy area would become busier. Exacerbating the crowding. They might as well stay where they are.

UptheChimney Tue 10-Sep-13 21:26:12

The rule about wheelchair users having priority in my opinion is unfair

Now my head really is exploding! And you are raising the next generation? thank goodness you're in a minority, and let's hope none of you & yours becomes disabled.

UptheChimney Tue 10-Sep-13 21:30:53

But people are assuming here that a wheelchair user has no mobility at all. This is not neccessarily true, if they just can't walk far, they could be more capable of folding their chair than someone with an alternate non-wheelchair-needing disability is if folding a pram and juggling a baby?

Oh FFS!

< head explodes >

Here, Beyond biscuit

candycoatedwaterdrops Tue 10-Sep-13 22:01:05

UptheChimney Beyond is a disabled parent. I understood what she was trying to say, although she put it clumsily.

pamish Tue 10-Sep-13 22:18:45

Where have all these enormous buggies come from? My kids had lightweight buggies that folded down to about the size of an umbrella. Now these SUV -sized things get bigger every year. I swear the one that ran over my feet on a bus last week had a tray for coffee cups.

If you know you're getting on a bus, dont take a huge buggy. Have an alternative foldable one. Simple.

ProudAS Tue 10-Sep-13 22:25:26

I have a colleague who uses a wheelchair but can fold it and transfer to a regular seat quite easily (and often does). Vacating the wheelchair area might not be so easy for a parent with a child in a buggy and severe arthritis however.

What annoys me a bit (maybe I'm being unreasonable ) is small children who are travelling for free occupying seats whilst fare paying passengers are standing.

I have NEVER got on a bus with an unfolded buggy/ pushchair in my life - in fact it is one of the criteria that I have always had when buying a pushchair - can I fold it one handed? If I can't, I don't buy it! Hardly rocket science is it? If you are going to be using public transport, make sure that you can do so, without any difficulty.

As for a sleeping baby/ toddler having priority over a wheelchair bound adult, I'd far rather take a sleeping baby out of a pram than a sleeping toddler, and neither should have priority over the wheelchair user.

AlwaysWashing Tue 10-Sep-13 22:35:45

Well I read that as "folding budgies" so am very disappointed by this thread grin

FreeWee Tue 10-Sep-13 22:44:44

My friend is in an electric wheelchair, definitely not foldable even if she did make like Lazarus and get up and walk.

We were refused access onto several London buses because of buggies till I read the notice in the area saying wheelchair users get priority. I had to tell the next bus driver that while he huffed and puffed about letting her on while there was a buggy there. The parents were fine about it as we manoeuvred my friend and the buggy so they could share the space albeit a bit squished but my friend loves babies so was happy to gaze at it all journey

This was London where I'd expect everyone to know the rules about priorities.

Therealamandaclarke Tue 10-Sep-13 22:54:03

freewee that's vy poor from that driver.
So horrible for your friend.
I can't imagine someone not moving for a wheelchair user (although I know some ppl are saying it happens)
But I thought the issue was whether ppl should fold pushchairs if it's busy.
And I still say no.....

Trigglesx Tue 10-Sep-13 23:22:12

I cannot believe this is such a struggle for people to understand. Seriously. confused Wheelchairs first, everything else second. No exceptions, not even if the baby is sleeping.

When DS1 was an infant, I made sure the pushchair was light and portable and easy to fold, as we used the bus regularly. Both DH & I actually practiced folding it and opening it up numerous times in our living room to make sure we could do it quickly and easily (and with one hand). The few times I struggled with folding it (hey, we all have days, right?), there was always someone offering to help - usually elderly gentlemen offering to help with the pushchair and elderly women offering to hold DS1.

Now, of course, DS1 is 7yo and in a wheelchair. He used to be in a Maclaren Major (SN pushchair), but my god the aggravation going out in that thing - if I had 10p for every muttered comment about him being too old to be in a pushchair, I'd be rich! And others saying point blank to me or even to him "Isn't he (or "Aren't you..") a lazy boy, making your mummy push you in a pushchair at your age!!" And my personal favourite - a "lady" saying this to her friend quite loudly "SHE'S got some nerve - parking her kid there - he should be walking at his age - wait until a cripple comes on and watch what happens!" hmm Just absolutely charming! And of course, all things said directly in front of DS1 and loud enough for him to hear - although he senses that people are not being nice to him, he doesn't necessarily "get" the remarks. Yet.

At least with him in his wheelchair now, we just deal with the directly stupid people like the guy at the register at Primark that said very loudly to us while we were simply attempting to pay for some items "So what is wrong with HIM (jerking his head at DS1 in his wheelchair) anyway?" shock I mentioned that to the manager, as I'm reasonably certain it's not on their "how to make small talk with the customer" handbook, eh?

I'm afraid I've reached the point where I also think it should be all pushchairs folded on entering the bus - unless it's a SN pushchair or the parent pushing the pushchair has disabilities that would affect them folding pushchair and holding baby.

SilverStreak7 Wed 11-Sep-13 09:23:39

PROUDAS .. I agree there re Children taking seats , ,, , only when bus is busy mind but I always taught my children when on a bus if an elderly person or pregnant lady or disabled person
gets on always offer them the seat .. Sadly, many parents don;t bother to tell their children to stand and let those mentioned sit ..

SilverStreak7 Wed 11-Sep-13 09:26:43

Yes, I hadn't taken into account SN pushchairs in my original post . Of course, in my opinion, they should have the same precedence as wheelchairs .

hazeyjane Wed 11-Sep-13 09:31:47

-can i just throw children with sn in ordinary pushchairs - before ds was issued his sn pushchair (you do not get a referral to wheelchair services until 3 in this area), it was a real struggle to get him out and hold him, in order to fold. but inevitably we were expected to because if someone came on with a younger baby in a pram/buggy the driver said that it should be me folding because ds was older - despite being floppy and unable to walk.

I ended up buying a 'disabled child' sticker to hang on the chair.

ghostspirit Wed 11-Sep-13 09:43:31

i always fold my buggy if someone needs the space more than me. could be a smaller baby, someone with a double buggy wheel chair user. but buggys should defo have to be folded if a wheel chair user needs the space. bus drivers round here don't help people fold their buggys and whilst your holding a baby and bags at the same time as folding a pram with a bus thats moving is very hard. if your lucky that the driver waits till you are ready you then having people tutting huffing and puffing because your holding the bus up.

Here in london children under 16 travel free. and up to age 19 if in education. i don't think that should mean they cant have a seat. but i think anyone weather child or adult should give up their seat if someone needs it more than them. me and my kids give up seats on the bus when needed. when have the choice i let my kids sit down and i stand. 3 of y children also share a 2 seater.

Trigglesx Wed 11-Sep-13 10:39:33

hazeyjane So right! But it's sad that it even has to be clarified. You'd think this was all common sense.

Therealamandaclarke Wed 11-Sep-13 11:09:13

Agree with ghostpirit

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Wed 11-Sep-13 13:28:47

It always baffles me, the number of people who buy buggies they can't fold and take them on public transport

I mean, when you spend £150++++ on a bit of kit don't you think about how you are going to use it? And learn how to? Or is that too much to ask? How do you get it in a car boot? Or on an aeroplane? Or a train? Or is it just on buses that it becomes impossible to fold?

Therealamandaclarke Wed 11-Sep-13 15:09:55

I think it's quite difficult to fold a buggy on a moving vehicle whilst holding a baby, supervising a toddler and preventing your shopping from spilling over the floor.
When folding a buggy to go into the boot of a car one normally doesn't have to perform these additional tasks in a crowded bus.

Dawndonnaagain Wed 11-Sep-13 15:12:31

It is quite difficult therealamandaclarke so imagine how difficult it is to get on a bus, with your shopping when you're a wheelchair user.

Therealamandaclarke Wed 11-Sep-13 15:17:18

I should imagine it's extraordinarily difficult dawndonnaagain
Which is why (as I've said, more than once on this thread) I would always make space for a wheelchair user.

Dawndonnaagain Wed 11-Sep-13 15:18:11

Thank You therealamandaclarke the more people that say it, the more come round to their way of thinking.

Binkybix Wed 11-Sep-13 16:20:04

I'm one of these pathetic new mums who struggle with folding, and I specifically got one that's easy to fold. I just get very flustered blush

But that's my problem - I'd just get off for a wheelchair user. I'd prob not fold on a busy bus, but avoid rush hour like the plague. I need to get some more confidence to fold.

I can't believe there are people who wouldn't make way for a wheelchair user - using a buggy should make someone more empathetic, because you understand more how restrictive it is (for example on the tube). And generally a wheelchair is for life.

MrsOakenshield Wed 11-Sep-13 16:31:38

TondelayoSchwarzkopf - the thing is - it may well be easy to fold, when it isn't full of a sleeping baby, a load of shopping and crammed into a small space on a crowded bus. So I don't see why anyone should have to fold their buggy. They can, however, get off. Which is what I would do, rather than struggle with folding the buggy. Also, not everyone thinks they are going to be using public transport when buying their buggy, or they may have been given it. And believe me, no-one with a small child in a buggy chooses to travel in the rush hour but sometimes it's unavoidable.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Wed 11-Sep-13 16:34:57

I would also have got off, if folding was a faff.

There are posters on London Buses specifically reminding people that wheelchairs take precedence.

Wheelchair campaign

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Wed 11-Sep-13 20:25:26

I never said it wasn't difficult. I said I didn't understand why (AB) people couldn't or wouldnt do it and presented this as a reason to not give priority to wheelchair users.

I am fully aware of how difficult it is to travel on public transport with a buggy - I have never owned a car and travelled daily with a buggy on buses and tubes in rush hour for 3 years. It takes a little resourcefulness, practcie and patience but it can be done. For example shopping in a rucksack rather than carrier bags, carrying a sling, etc.

My mother didn't have a car in the rural area we grew up in and managed to carry / supervise 3 kids and fold an old school Silver Cross pram on the weekly bus trip to Tesco. grin they put it in the boot in them thar days. (The prams not the kids)

AdmiralData Thu 12-Sep-13 20:39:00

Candy - Yes, I was refused. The bus driver pulled off whilst my baby was still in my arm (he was 4 months old) and the buggy folded up in the other before I had a chance to sit down. Think anyone gave a fuck? Nopes.

Livingtothefull Thu 12-Sep-13 21:05:40

I travel by bus regularly with my disabled DS and frequently encounter problems caused by the selfishness and bloody mindedness of a minority of people, of the kind described here: drivers refusing to let us board because a buggy is in the wheelchair space and just driving off, people refusing to vacate the space or move buggies and luggage, verbal abuse 'why do you have to go on the bus at this busy time of day?' (er, because that's when his hospital appointment is, to prepare him for yet more surgery).

Every time I get on the bus I am apprehensive and fearful in case I have another battle on my hands. It is not pleasant living with stress like this; it would be nice to just travel without having to worry about this stuff, like 'normal' people do.

I DO believe that things are improving as people become more aware of the issues at stake and the level of ignorance falls. Threads like this one are useful IMO as they help raise awareness; as this thread demonstrates, it is just a minority of people who fail to understand that priority needs to be given to the disabled, to enable them to access public transport at all. Unfortunately this small minority is still large enough in number to make things hellish for the disabled and other vulnerable people.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Thu 12-Sep-13 21:11:45

flowers to you and our DS living

People are horrible sometimes.

Livingtothefull Thu 12-Sep-13 21:17:46

Thank you Tondelay

Yes a few (not many but enough to cause grief) people are horrible....can't rely purely on people's goodwill for my DS rights to be respected. In too many cases, the goodwill just isn't there.

This is why I don't ever get the bus. I have 7mo twins and frankly the idea of folding a buggy (even a small Macalren jobbie) with them on a London bus breaks me out in a cold sweat. I live on tons of bus routes but I just walk miles to avoid it. I know I'm lucky to be fit enough (although the first 10 weeks after my c-section, I really wasn't) but I haven't had more than 3 hours unbroken sleep this year and i am still breastfeeding 20 times a day (2x 10 feeds!) so I really can't be doing with any sort of confrontation, even just being asked to move/fold and then having to deal with the embarrassment/hassle of getting off.

On the up side, I m skinnier than I've been in a decade!

twistyfeet Sat 14-Sep-13 15:45:28

I had the great experience today of watching bus after bus pull up and leave without me with unfolded buggies in the wheelchair space I needed. Not one bus driver (First) would ask the parent to fold. Buses every 20 mins so I waited an hour and a half. It was cold.
I am fucking sick of this. Ban unfolded buggies.

Trigglesx Sat 14-Sep-13 15:49:56

It IS ridiculous. I really think that wheelchair users need to "reclaim" the wheelchair space and pushchairs need to be folded on entry to the bus, unless there are extenuating circumstances (such as disabled toddler in pushchair, SNs pushchair, or disabled parent pushing the pushchair).

twistyfeet Sat 14-Sep-13 16:10:17

If Lothian Buses can make parents fold for wheelchair users then so can other bus companies. This way both the wheelchair user and the parent can get home on the same bus. The bus I finally caught, the woman folded her empty pushchair. If she hadnt I might still be sat there as my bus stop was half way between town and where I live. Saturdays are busy obviously so I could have been waiting all sodding day if it hadnt been for that one lady. 90 minutes is fucking ridiculous to wait for a wheelchair space when they are all occupied by buggies. I got so cold in the wind I am now in a lot of pain.
So looking forward to going back out later. Not.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sun 15-Sep-13 12:00:43

In my part of London, I have never seen a driver drive past a wheelchair user. They make the buggy move, in most cases, or ask the parent to fold it.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sun 15-Sep-13 12:01:05

... but of course, buses are very frequent

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