To agree with the Headmistress to send home pupils who do not conform to regulation school uniform.

(301 Posts)
annemary12 Sat 07-Sep-13 21:13:23

I am totally fed up with school pupils who look a mess and are not dressed in correct or regulation school uniform. I never understand why many schools allow 6th form pupils free will in their choice of clothes.

I think that if pupils are unable to abide by school uniform regulations what hope of they got when they leave school and are going to interviews.

I believe that all school pupils including 6th form pupils should wear a regulation school blazer and school tie so they can show which school they go to.

Headmistress like Leslie ellis are standing up for standards that have been in decline since the 1970"s and need to be fully supported in their desire to hold standards to at least the very shoddy standards that pupils display today. I for one am delighted that a head was prepared to take ridicule and derision in standing up for standards.

After reading the constant criticism of leslie ellis i thought it was time that someone stood up for a upstanding member of the teaching profession.

CoffeeTea103 Sat 07-Sep-13 21:20:58

I agree with this. It's shocking to see how kids go to school these days. If they can't conform to these rules, what will they do in the workplace. And it doesn't help with the parents supporting them with saying how does it affect their school work. It does !

Bowlersarm Sat 07-Sep-13 21:22:27

I agree too.

There will be plenty along who don't though.

AgentZigzag Sat 07-Sep-13 21:25:28

At the risk of being drawn in grin I wouldn't say her choice, out of the 1000's of solutions she had the pick of, to send so many children home indicates she's an upstanding member of the teaching profession.

Sounds out of her depth to me.

Overly dramatic and attention seeking.

She should be running the school, not creating havoc with something that could have been done smoothly with the minimum of fuss.

I don't mind school uniforms and think the DC should look smart, but not at the expense of everything else.

And I don't like the standards they had in the 1970's, especially the one's which saw me getting slapped and hit with implements by the teacher in front of the class.

Lancelottie Sat 07-Sep-13 21:27:40

Well, you might have a teeny and boring point when it comes to those who won't abide by school uniform, but why are you getting your teeth into those who can't?

Those who can't would include:
Anyone the wrong shape for the school's daft choice of skirt/trousers
Anyone who can't afford it
Anyone sensitive to the fabric

Why pick on them?

<wilfully misunderstands thread>

SirChenjin Sat 07-Sep-13 21:28:13

I completely agree.

Our school has clamped down on uniform recently, but only to a point. It frustrates me hugely that I spend a fortune on the requisite black leather shoes for example, while other pupils pitch up wearing canvas pumps or leggings instead of trousers. As far as I'm concerned, the school uniform rules are flouted too often - good for that Head for sending the pupils home.

freemanbatch Sat 07-Sep-13 21:28:21

I agree with uniform and think all children should look neat and tidy when they go to school but I don't agree with girls having to dress like boys to get an education.

Ties and blazers are professional attire for men but they should not be required from girls. A smart blouse and female suit jacket with school logo should be available so girls are equally taught how to dress appropriately for a career.

LegoDragon Sat 07-Sep-13 21:28:41

I thought in that case, it was a problem over supply issues so a lot of the students physically couldn't have the uniform? In that case, she was wrong as you can't punish chikdren for something they can't get.

Otherwise: I agree, they should face something. But stopping them learning won't help, surely? Detention and missed lunch and so on might be better, at least they have a chance to learn something- even if they don't want to.

I disagree about sixth formers though. As they are near adults, soon going to work and university interviews, it would be beneficial for them to wear smart casual clothes or suits- work clothes. As well as making them feel more adult like, it means they get an understanding of appropriate clothing for work or interviews. I've had a shocking number of interviews with people coming in wearing work innapropriate clothing though, so I'm biased!

HeySoulSister Sat 07-Sep-13 21:29:41

How can you be 'totally fed up'? They have been back a week, if that. Maybe you need to work on lowering your stress levels, your blood pressure must be sky high!

Lancelottie Sat 07-Sep-13 21:29:57

Why stop at a tie? Why not a sash, a burka, a pair of garters, a really silly hat?

AgentZigzag Sat 07-Sep-13 21:30:28

Loads of schools change their uniform all the time, I've never heard the like of the drama this head has generated.

She must have thought up this strategy for the planned change over all by herself, because I just can't imagine anyone else advising her it was a great idea and nothing could possibly go wrong.

And her thinking thinking it's going according to her plan and isn't even slightly pear shaped would be even more worrying.

Lancelottie Sat 07-Sep-13 21:31:01

Why the hell should they miss lunch for being unable to wear something that wasn't available to them?

Really great way to earn your students' respect.

primroseyellow Sat 07-Sep-13 21:32:18

'I think that if pupils are unable to abide by school uniform regulations what hope of they got when they leave school and are going to interviews.'
LOL at your inability to write correct English which is rather more important than correct uniform!
Do you even recognise your error?

AgentZigzag Sat 07-Sep-13 21:33:00

'Totally fed up' here means 'judgy as fuck' grin

I'm the same though when I see trainers with the uniform.

Lancelottie Sat 07-Sep-13 21:33:21

I sat on my hands rather over that one, Primrose...

lagertops Sat 07-Sep-13 21:33:41

My opinion is that school attire, if you must enforce it, should be general, i.e no tie or blazers, but white shirts and black trousers and skirts. I can't think of any work-place that enforces women to wear ties, so that's pretty redundant.
I think skirts should be a reasonable length, shoes should be sensible and hard-wearing.
Some of the stuff my peers were wearing not too long ago were ridiculous- bum skimming skirts, hoodies with tacky logos not associated with the school, and out of place white trainers. I think those who want to dye their hair funky colours, accessorise or have piercings shouldn't get into trouble if dressed smartly otherwise and aren't trouble-makers.

What is your opinion on University dress codes, as many don't have one? Assuming the student is intelligent and does want a good career at the end of it, do you still feel 'what hope of they got when they leave school and are going to interviews' just because they are wearing jeans? I think that someone with a lack of common sense and decides to not dress smartly to a job interview probably didn't have much chance of getting the job anyway.

twistyfeet Sat 07-Sep-13 21:35:58

how does the incorrect uniform stop them learning? confused
we had a temporary head send me a letter about dd not wearing shoes once. dd is in a wheelchair and has feet so badly deformed its impossible. Daft bint.

claraschu Sat 07-Sep-13 21:36:33

Interesting how people in Germany, Holland, ad the US seem to manage to get jobs even though they go to school in jeans, t-shirts and sneakers.

Why are British people SO obsessed with uniforms?

Icedink Sat 07-Sep-13 21:37:45

I thought that the pupils didn't have uniform because they were out of stock? You make some good points and I agree that schoolchildren should stick to rules on uniform but imo this headmistress is power crazy and way ott punishing children for things beyond their control.

Lancelottie Sat 07-Sep-13 21:39:00

Our schools, while not perfect, have it about right:
'No underwear to be on show at any time except when changing'.

Covers belt-shaped skirts, low-slung trousers, see-through blouses with black bras...

DuelingFanjo Sat 07-Sep-13 21:40:40

I think some of the uniform rules are a bit suspect.

lisad123everybodydancenow Sat 07-Sep-13 21:40:58

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LegoDragon Sat 07-Sep-13 21:42:52

clara I come from the US and my dd1 went to school in the UK until we moved recently to a country without uniform. I don't see the point in uniform, but I think if there IS a uniform, it should be enforced ifyswim? Better none, though.

deakymom Sat 07-Sep-13 21:43:33

personally i find school uniform excessively expensive we just had a bit of a financial shortfall and the upshot is i cant afford over thirty quid for a pair of school shoes for my son (this week)so he has gone in black trainers i cant afford the school logo t-shirt so he will go in plain same as the jumper he is clean and tidy but im not paying an extra thirty pounds for logos on his uniform! when i went to first school no one had school uniform on the area was a poor one and no one could afford it so the rule was no jeans girls wear dresses boys wear trousers look as neat as you can the rest is up to you we had PE in vest and knickers (no pumps no one had them) and outdoor PE was never done we were educated as best as they could manage but uniform had to be removed as an issue because it is just too expensive

so i guess what im saying is education should be this issue not clothing if had my way i wouldn't bother with the uniform just a general dress code and blazers bother me as they wont allow children to wear coats over them even in the pouring rain and the freezing cold

kim147 Sat 07-Sep-13 21:43:57

Obsessed is the word. Other countries seem to get by and focus on the actual education.

How do Holland, France and Germany do it?

kim147 Sat 07-Sep-13 21:44:25

And why logos on everything?

LaGuardia Sat 07-Sep-13 21:44:41

I get pissed off with the parents who send their DC into school with turquoise socks and black skirts when the uniform is white socks and navy skirts. They are just trying to make a point. Pathetic. Home school if you don't want to conform.

Lampshadeofdoom Sat 07-Sep-13 21:44:57

Ours have had to introduce a new skirt style to stop girls wearing it short and very tight.

I suppose it depends if uniform is being worn incorrectly because they can't afford logo items.

I don't thing pupils should be punished for having right style and colour of trousers just because they aren't logo ones

beatback Sat 07-Sep-13 21:46:08

Hold standards to at least the Shoddy standards of today. That does not seem right.

littlemisswise Sat 07-Sep-13 21:47:03

No, Leslie Ellis is bloody stupid IMO. The school couldn't supply the uniform yet she still went into overkill mode and sent children home, or put them into isolation when they and their parents had absolutely no control over the situation. Some of the children had only started that day, what a great impression she gave to them and their parents!

DS2 goes to sixth form in jeans and a t-shirt, just as DS1 did. DS1 got high A level grades so it didn't affect his learning. I would, personally, like a dress code because it would save a faff in the mornings.

I don't, however, understand why a school needs to have a star or other emblem on a skirt or pair of trousers. What is wrong with a school tie, jumper or blazer? Why when times are so hard for so many families are they making it so expensive to send our kids to school? Not only that, are they making lots of leg lengths (DS2 is a 34" inside leg), different trouser styles for girls, because as women we know one style does not fit all? It's just completely over the top in my opinion!

scaevola Sat 07-Sep-13 21:49:04

i googled - there isn't much about this, so I'm a little surprised that anyone has found "constant criticism".

The problem is a big bang change. If I had DC who had finished growing and who had uniform in good order, I would not be happy about being ordered to change it for just year 11. There really should be 3-6 terms of running the two uniforms alongside each other.

But logo'ed trousers and skirts!?! Sounds vile, as well as being seriously atypical.

littlemisswise Sat 07-Sep-13 21:52:15

There was a thread about LE, scaevola.

Djjuran Sat 07-Sep-13 21:53:24

I think it's important so that children know what rules are. There are so many who don't seem to have any at home (I know from my own children's tales) that some homes just don't have any discipline. These are the ones that will go out to the workplace and not have a clue how to behave - so good on Leslie Ellis for caring.

redexpat Sat 07-Sep-13 21:53:47

Isn't there a thread about her on AIBU saying that the uniform didn't come into the shop in time, so it was send them in wearing wrong uniform, or not at all. In which case she IBU.

I agree in principal, but really schools are making it more and more difficult to stick to the uniform. Logos on trousers? Is that really going to raise standards? I think not.

littlemisswise Sat 07-Sep-13 21:55:07

DS1 used to wear the "wrong" colour socks when he was at school. It was specified that they wore dark plain socks, so he did. Dark red, dark purple, dark blue etc. The HT would argue she meant black, well she should have bloody said black then!
It didn't affect his learning, he got the 2nd highest GCSE results in his year!

kim147 Sat 07-Sep-13 21:55:41

I think it's ridiculous when people are struggling for money that schools insist on uniform with loads of logos which costs a lot of money. Kids grow and also damage their uniform which ends up costing parents loads.

marriedinwhiteisback Sat 07-Sep-13 21:55:53

You see I totally support a strict uniform but in the context of breaking rules it falls behind: bullying, theft, assault, pyromania, disruption, drug taking, smoking, drinking on the premises and in the uniform. I will respect all members of the teaching profession when their rinciples become aligned with right and wrong and proper efforts are made to ensure the dc who want to learn can learn. It's why we removed our dd from a state comp at the end of year 8. PRIORITIES do you hear - sort out te PRIORITIES. Dd is a goody two shoes btw but how I would have loved a letter or complaint about the length of her skirt - oh how I would have loved it.

Listentomum Sat 07-Sep-13 21:56:19

So long as they put as much effort into education and welfare then I agree. I went to a school that cared lots about uniform and not much about teaching or welfare, therefore I would say uniform is less important than the other stuff.

redexpat Sat 07-Sep-13 21:56:30

Here is the other thread.

scaevola Sat 07-Sep-13 21:57:21

Thanks - didn't show on google. And if you don't want to read an MN thread, you just hide it? Not start what is proving to be a TAAT.

ukatlast Sat 07-Sep-13 21:58:59

I went to school in the late 1970s and there was no uniform in the 6th Form. The reason is simple - you could leave school at 15/16 and there was no need to put people off staying on by enforcing an unnecessary uniform.

We also called the teachers by their first names in the 6th Form as well...shock horror. Also if you had no lessons timetabled, you could stay at home..shock horror. I think OP's attitude is ridiculous oldfashioned claptrap.
Bear in mind that office dress codes have relaxed a massive amount in the last 15 years...my husband is often the only one wearing a tie in business meetings and that is wonderful in my opinion.

WorrySighWorrySigh Sat 07-Sep-13 21:59:41

Totally unreasonable. School uniform in a state school is a stupid waste of everybody's time and resources.

There is no evidence that school uniform has any real impact on learning. Heads like imposing school uniform as a way of exerting power and control.

Pride in the organisation comes first. If the organisation is worthy of pride then students will be happy to wear the uniform. If the organisation is not worthy of students' respect then no amount of bullying behaviour by the head will result in students paying more than lip service to the uniform.

I see this clearly with my DS. He belongs to the Army Cadets, he takes enormous pride in that organisation. As a result he puts huge effort into being smartly turned out. He is not proud of his school (bottom 20 in England so who would be?). His school uniform would make a scarecrow blush.

Darkesteyes Sat 07-Sep-13 22:02:47

OP this might make your head implode but if girls are being told not to wear make up at school for instance just as an example then im assuming women wont be expected to wear make up to job interviews......oh wait

Lancelottie Sat 07-Sep-13 22:02:55

I half-agree with that, Worry. DS will smarten up immensely for choir events (bow ties, no less!) and take pride in being part of a unit.

But he's also immensely proud of his (shabby, sweatshirted) school, and of their scary, well-respected headteacher.

Darkesteyes Sat 07-Sep-13 22:05:46

littlemisswiseSat 07-Sep-13 21:47:03

No, Leslie Ellis is bloody stupid IMO. The school couldn't supply the uniform yet she still went into overkill mode and sent children home, or put them into isolation when they and their parents had absolutely no control over the situation. Some of the children had only started that day, what a great impression she gave to them and their parents!


She blamed the kids for something that was the schools fault. Which makes her an abusive gaslighter.

lagertops Sat 07-Sep-13 22:07:29

WorrySighWorrySigh good post.

pointythings Sat 07-Sep-13 22:08:39

YABU because the cockup was the school's - they failed to manage the logistics. Pupils were not able to obtain the uniform, therefore the head should have apologised, instituted a grace period and lived with it.

I am opposed to school uniform - I grew up in Holland, and amazingly enough there was no enormous breakdown of law and order in schools because of the lack of uniform. Odd, that hmm. But since I chose to live in the UK and send my DDs to school here, I have adapted. I'm just glad that the schools I send my DDs to are sensible about uniform and don't rip off parents for the sake of a few logos.

littlemisswise Sat 07-Sep-13 22:12:47

When both my DSes were at school they wore their uniforms properly. They tucked their shirts in, did their top buttons up, tie knots right up to their collars, the right shoes which were polished.They were good lads. DS1 had the sock issue but you couldn't tell until he sat down. The HT still moaned about it.

DH is Forces. He has size 14 feet, they can't supply him the correct shoes so they let him wear Doc Martens, and he is allowed to wear M&S black socks.

To me there has to be some common sense, but all to often when these stories are rolled out (usually in the DM) it seems to be lacking.

WorrySighWorrySigh Sat 07-Sep-13 22:13:55

Lancelottie, is your DS proud to wear his school sweatshirt to his school?

My DS is not at all proud to attend his unutterably crap school. Therefore DS is not at all proud to wear his blazer. Funnily enough there is no rush to put the school badge on his new blazer.

On the other hand DS will happily spend hour bulling his parade boots for cadets and is nagging for a new pair of work boots as his old pair no longer reach his exacting standards.

pointythings Sat 07-Sep-13 22:19:32

The whole pride thing is a red herring. My DD is proud of her academic achievements, and she acknowledges the part her teachers have played in that. Her logo blazer has bugger all to do with it.

RedHorse3 Sat 07-Sep-13 22:20:48

Op, are you my Ds's Headteacher?! wink

I would like to say that I am not opposed to school uniform in the slightest, however surely a tie & blazer/ jumper sold at a reasonable price is enough? By all means, colours ( eg black trousers. skirt whatever) are fine. I should be able to purchase these where I choose to though.

Does this fall below your 40 yr old standards btw?

MrRected Sat 07-Sep-13 22:22:38

Couldn't agree more op.

Darkesteyes Sat 07-Sep-13 22:25:55

DH says these restrictive way of buying uniforms are like cartels

Darkesteyes Sat 07-Sep-13 22:27:04

This thread has been started for damage control

marriedinwhiteisback Sat 07-Sep-13 22:31:39

I'm now confused by both threads. Leslie Elliott. Is this head male or female - can somone please confirm the gender and the spelling.

beatback Sat 07-Sep-13 22:36:11

annemarie. I agree to a point but i have known schools spend more time on uniform infringments, than on education matters. A school needs to be measured and calculated in its response to uniform infringments. Sending pupils home from school is not in the pupils intrests, the school should first educate, the punishment should come in a time that does not affect the pupils education.

The school when imposing punishment should enforce that punishment in a reasonable and proportionate way that does not damage their education. In this case perhaps asking the pupils who made the uniform infringments to come in on a saturday morning or an after school detention picking up litter would have been more preferable.

However in this particular case i feel as this may have been the fault of the school. The head who may have asked for new uniform requirements without making sure the items were readily available or that a reasonable amount of time was available for parents to purchase the new uniform requirements.

BoffinMum Sat 07-Sep-13 22:37:25

School uniforms are militaristic and unnecessary.

marriedinwhiteisback Sat 07-Sep-13 22:38:03

Apologies - the last name is Ellis. But if the first name is Leslie and the the head's a woman I'm gobsmacked that the ingrate so much as dares mewl over logos when her own parents didn't realise that leslie was the male spelling. The ingrained lack of education and familial ignorance surely explains it. The female spellig is Lesley. Well done Ellis - your own nme is misspelled yet you seek to dictate to others. Oh the inadequacy - ROFL.

Picturesinthefirelight Sat 07-Sep-13 22:38:11

Don't know the story but dd is incredibly incredibly proud of her new school.

She has however give in this week without the proper track suit bottoms as the wrong size came & the new haven't arrived yet. It wouldn't occur to us she might get sent home.

Her old private school had supply probs when they changed uniform. They wrote to everyone to reassure them it was ok to come in any smart skirt, trousers.

NoComet Sat 07-Sep-13 22:39:05

YABU
school uniform and sixform dress codes are a total waste of time.

According to a very wise and clever retired Headmistress "Teenages rebel, the only purpose of uniform is to give them something harmless to rebel against"

Sending pupils home on mass because the suppliers have fucked up or the pupils and parents have decided to stop believing in the charade is a step too far.

Being sick of the whole stupid nonsense is a minor, but non the less telling reason why DD1 wants to go to Collage for A level. She is sick if being patronised and talked down to.

jacks365 Sat 07-Sep-13 22:46:09

My dd's school changed their uniform but years 10 & 11 had the choice of whether to get the new uniform or not and years 8 & 9 were given a years grace to wear either uniform. Year 7 were fine with the new one because the school made the decision early and so the new supplies were in in plenty of time and quantities. Thats how you successfully change a school uniform not the way this one was done. The uniform at my daughters was relaxed not tightened, ties for girls went and the blouse changed to a rever collar and skirt went from straight to pleated. Blazer was kept but they still look smart and parents were not really put out.

Whats gone on at this school is a shambles and the head should be ashamed of herself.

LifeHuh Sat 07-Sep-13 22:48:23

YABU.
Perhaps you'd like the school uniform tales of those of us who were at school in the 70s? Rumours of a massive decline in standards have been a bit exaggerated IMO.

And many people are well able to understand the idea of wearing different clothes for different occasions,not wearing smart business clothes in the 6th form isn't going to result in a generation of children unable to dress for interviews.Especially as those going on to college/uni will then be able to wear what they like...
By all means have a sensible simple uniform and try to enforce it,but sending children home - depriving them of a day of education (which of course a parent would risk a fine for doing...) - massive overeaction to my mind (especially in the specific case in the news at the moment).There are more important issues,and better ways of dealing with teens.

WorrySighWorrySigh Sat 07-Sep-13 22:48:29

It is the total impracticality of school uniform which makes my blood boil.

For what climatic condition is the most appropriate garment a polyester blazer?

As workwear it is totally useless. Wrong fabrics, poor quality and ill fitting. For the first two weeks the students look like greeters in a building society. After that they look like they were dressed from donations to War on Want.

annemary12 Sat 07-Sep-13 22:50:04

Thank you. I thought i would be the only one who has a belief in traditional school uniform. I have noticed that in Northen Ireland the 6th formers wear full School uniform. They look so much smarter than many 6th formers at schools in England and Wales, that have no uniform requirements for 6th form pupils.

I know of a few 16/17 yr old pupils who enjoy wearing their uniform and are very pleased their schools at least have a suit and tie for boys and a suit for girls. They would hate the thought of wearing anything,they like uniformity. They realise they can wait for university for freedom in their choice of clothing.

littlemisswise Sat 07-Sep-13 22:51:26

YY WorrySigh, A nice polyester blazer that they must keep on in lessons, even when it is boiling hot outside. What are the teachers wearing? Summer dresses and short sleeved shirts! And they wonder why DC don't want to wear it!

applebread Sat 07-Sep-13 22:54:56

Op are you Leslie Ellis?

I am all for smart uniform but logos on skirts and trousers are ridiculous.

Fortunately the dc go to a school with logos only on the jumper and pe t shirt and everything else you can get from the supermarket. They have fantastic teachers which makes much more impact on their lives than the colour of their socks.

pointythings Sat 07-Sep-13 22:58:13

OP conveniently ignores

1) all the posters who agree with school uniform but feel LE was completely U in the way she acted and

2) all the posters who disagree with school uniform.

You are Leslie Ellis and I claim my £5.

pointythings Sat 07-Sep-13 22:59:19

littlemiss at my DD's school they allow blazers to be removed as soon as the weather gets warm, and the pupils can always ask. Common sense is not yet dead, despite the nature of the OP's post.

littlemisswise Sat 07-Sep-13 23:01:56

It was at my DSes old school Pointy. I can count on my fingers how many times they were allowed to remove their blazers in hot weather. I emailed once when their was a 'heat wave' and we were being warned by the met office, the HT still didn't think it was warm enough for them not to wear blazers!

usualsuspect Sat 07-Sep-13 23:06:02

I hate school uniform and think ties are out dated and ridiculous

And it's also ridiculous for 6th formers to have to wear uniform.

marriedinwhiteisback Sat 07-Sep-13 23:07:11

I hope every member of staff taught in a light jacket with their top button fastened and a tie during that period littlemiss. Reasonable rules after all should be acceptable for all; not selected groups.

EverythingInMjiniature Sat 07-Sep-13 23:11:07

This was THE BEST when I was at school:

'Go home and change'

Ok.

My home was only accessible by the next bus which left at 4.05 pm. Many a happy afternoon spent in McDonald's with the schools blessing smile

jacks365 Sat 07-Sep-13 23:13:45

Worrysigh my daughter missed her blazer when she went into the sixth form as it had really useful pockets she missed it that much that she bought one she could wear day to day. Her school was another that was quick to give permission to remove blazers.

usualsuspect Sat 07-Sep-13 23:23:01

My DS couldn't wait to bin his bloody awful school uniform when he went to college.

TiggyD Sat 07-Sep-13 23:31:53

Reasonable idea cocked up by power crazed idiot.

The children at the school will know she's a dick who's lost control.

WorrySighWorrySigh Sat 07-Sep-13 23:33:31

I thought i would be the only one who has a belief in traditional school uniform.

What exactly is it that you believe in OP?

- What special properties do you think that a school uniform has?

- What evidence (that is evidence not unsubstantiated cod psychology) do you have that school uniform makes one jot of difference to educational outcomes?

jammiedonut Sun 08-Sep-13 05:11:52

I preferred a uniform as a child, and had a very healthy respect for my school so took a lot of pride in wearing it. We were very poor and sadly school uniform was the nicest thing I owned. If we hadn't had one I dread to think of the bullying potential had I turned up in the ill fitting hand me downs I had to wear at home.
There are good reasons to have a uniform, not necessarily because they impact on education, but because they remove a lot of the social and cultural differences between children. Everyone has a sense of identity and belonging that has nothing to do with how much your parents earn.

Morgause Sun 08-Sep-13 05:28:57

YABU

Parents who live here cannot send their over 11s to a non-uniform school, there are none within a 20 mile radius. I'm glad that both my DCs were able to attend the only local non uniform school before the parents and governors forced through uniform against the will of the head teacher.

They both managed to get 5 A levels and very good degrees despite never being told what to wear. Their father and I got lesser degrees, despite having every garment dictated up to the age of 18. We both spent an unreasonable amount of time trying to subvert the dictats which I see still happens today.

Uniform can make students look very scruffy - if it still fits then they wear it, even if it's falling apart, because replacements are so expensive.

As a teacher I always encouraged individuality, compulsory uniform saps that.

englishteacher78 Sun 08-Sep-13 06:47:51

It is true that it gives them something minor to rebel againstgrin
Our school had to change blazer supplier as the last one went bust and we've just changed the tie too. However, it's phased in - only needs to be changed when the student requires a new one.
Our Parents' association organises a very good second hand uniform shops.
Sixth formers have a dress code and any contraventions are warned first - they wouldn't be sent home; just asked to wear something more appropriate from the costume store! It's never had to be opened for that. grin

Smoorikins Sun 08-Sep-13 07:00:27

Where I live, there are no school uniforms for kids.

Personally, I love it. Its great to see kids able to express themselves instead of being forced into looking exactly alike.

Our schools get good results, and don't seem to struggle to wear appropriate clothing for the world of work.... Just because they don't wesr a uniform doesn't make them incapable of dressing smartly when they need to.

Oh, and yes, I'm in the UK.

nooka Sun 08-Sep-13 07:15:40

Wouldn't it be better not to feel you have to rebel against wearing nasty uniforms and the petty power plays that come with them? I don't think it is a wise saying at all, in fact I think it is a very stupid saying. As parents we are often told to pick our battles, and yet schools are commended for creating them?

I live in a town where none of the local schools have uniforms. My colleagues who mostly attended the schools have no more of a problem dressing for work than me, despite the years I spent stuffed into badly fitting polyester, when they were wearing jeans and a t-shirt.

Smoorikins Sun 08-Sep-13 07:22:46

Op, I'd like to ask you (and anyone else that cares to answer it), a genuine question.

What is more important - the education or the uniform?

If you agree that education is more important, then YABU. If you think that the uniform is more important, then YANBU.

Our local school has rules regarding dress. If they are broken, the pupil is warned not to wear it or similar again. Only if they do are they given some form of punishment. They are not sent home. It has a wide catchment area, poor bus links and there is no guarantee that there would be anyone at home anyway.

Which leads to another question. What do you propose the pupil does if they have no way of getting home and / or changing? Is it ok for them to hang around the streets all day?

englishteacher78 Sun 08-Sep-13 07:30:03

And of course, this was a supply issue not a refusal to wear the issue so definitely shouldn't have meant punishment.

Crowler Sun 08-Sep-13 07:32:45

Way to create a false dichotomy.

You can care about the education, and at the same time care about other things i.e. uniform. Not mutually exclusive.

Keeping an orderly school environment fosters an environment of learning. You could also say, why insist on keeping a school tidy? How does forcing a child to tidy up after themselves have any bearing on their education?

BoffinMum Sun 08-Sep-13 07:34:16

What would one of these nylon-blazer-and-logo-nazis do if a bunch if normal parents simply said no, enough, the kids are coming into school wearing clean jeans and t-shirts and you can stuff your uniform? If they refused to buy these poorly made bits of polyester crap sewn by young children in other countries in sweat shops?

I spend about £250-£400 a year on this bollocks which means my kids have to have fewer 'real' clothes and I bitterly resent having to fork out. And I don't want my kids looking like minor clerks and being trained for some sort of typing pool clone past that doesn't exist any more.

I hate uniforms. It represents all that is self-serving and wrong about parts of the British education system.

BoffinMum Sun 08-Sep-13 07:36:40

And I think if a head sent my child home for uniform infractions when they were clearly not of our making, I would be pulling my child out the school straight away as I would assume the head was incompetent.

nooka Sun 08-Sep-13 07:43:29

What's uniform got to do with an orderly school environment? Or learning? Universities seem to manage to be about learning with no clothing related rules. Work places seem fairly orderly whether they have uniforms or not.

My children have been at uniformed schools and non uniformed schools (both at primary) apart from the heterogeneity of clothing there really wasn't very much difference at all.

englishteacher78 Sun 08-Sep-13 07:45:47

If you feel so strongly about uniform why not campaign against it.
My students used to do some persuasive writing work on school uniform. They read well written opinions on both sides of the argument before doing their own work. We have a very distinctive uniform I was surprised to discover the majority were in favour of uniform.
Uniform used to be a great 'leveller' but it does seem to have got too expensive to fulfil that aim now.
There are pros and cons on both sides of the debate and on balance I'm in favour of uniform codes - as long as common sense comes into it. Which in this case, it didn't.

RedHorse3 Sun 08-Sep-13 08:01:30

Op, come back and answer your questions!

Smoorikins Sun 08-Sep-13 08:14:30

Crowler, my questions were specifically in relation to the specific instance where education has been withdrawn due to the schools failure to ensure people could get them.

I didn't make that clear, however.

Smoorikins Sun 08-Sep-13 08:18:13

Having said that, I still think education is more important ) schools can perform well with no uniform.

marriedinwhiteisback Sun 08-Sep-13 08:32:39

Apologies, it's Lesley Ellis, the name is correctly spelled. I stand by my earlier comments about priorities.

I like uniform and have no issues with it. However, I have significant issues about how it is prioritised in schools when there are far more serious issues that go unaddressed and which dilute the learning and enjoyment of the majority. I'm thinking about things which are criminal acts such as: assault, pyromania and drug taking; a little further down drinking and smoking; disruption, bullying insolence. All of which require far more serious sanctions than a uniform infraction. At the end of the day who does it harm if a child has a short skirt or pink hair or indeed if she arrives with a pretty necklace or a pair or earrings smaller than those worn by the admin office and through whom a chihuaha could be trained to jump.

When schools sort out their priorities and sort out who the trouble makers really are then I shall respect the teaching profession a little more. They never quite go for the little so and so the children are afraid of and who causes real trouble do they. Ultimately it's a matter of principle and ought to be led by a sensible principal.

IMO in any school where there is theft, assault, bullying, disruption, all those issues need to be dealt with first - the difficult issues, the one's which actually affect engagement with education, the ones that matter - the uniform and the sort of measures imposed by Lesley Ellis come a long long way down the pecking order. I trust Lesley Ellis can stand up and say, hand on heart, that none of those things exist in her school and no teacher has ever delivered a less judged to be less than good by Ofsted. If Lesley Ellis cannot do that then I suggest she reflects long and hard, along with any head in a similar situation, before she takes quite such draconian action over school uniform.

On the matter of safeguarding, I trust every parent was informed their child was being sent home and that the school made sure an adult was present to look after the child when they arrived home and that the child could gain access to their home. One also hopes that the school ensured the children had enough bus far for the extra journey entailed by this punitive and ludicrous exercise. If one child came to any harm as a result of this head's action that would have been a far greater tragedy than turning up for school with a logo that looks less than one centimetre square. On the matter of safeguarding alone I think Lesley Ellis many need to be hauled over by the LEA and that an investigation to ensure proper safeguarding procedures were in place in relation to this if nothing else.

CarpeVinum Sun 08-Sep-13 08:37:28

Home school if you don't want to conform

Noooooooooo ! Please don't !!

Home ed has a big enough PR problem as it is without adding vast swathes of people who pick mainly for its "non conformist" status.

Probably a better idea to choose HE becuase out of all the ed. options available to you it is either the best, or the least awful..... but not becuase it allows the adults to shine the "I'm so cool me" lables they have stuck on themselves.

needasilverlining Sun 08-Sep-13 08:43:53

DS1 is only 6 and loves his school so wears the uniform with great pride. Enforcement is pretty pants but it's a deprived area so the school are quite hands off about it. Seems about right to me and attainment levels are fine even though some of the pupils are a bit scruffy, because they are secure and cared for and well taught.

Lesley Ellis apparently thinks you can do without all that as long as you have logos. Which makes her someone I wouldn't want in charge of my child's education.

daytoday Sun 08-Sep-13 08:48:05

I can't bear uniforms. Would you all like your workplace to introduce a uniform regardless of if it is necessary, I think the amount of time spent arguing with kids about wearing the right uniform is absolutely pointless.

Dobbiesmum Sun 08-Sep-13 08:51:07

Has the OP given an opinion on the children who went to school in the 'wrong' uniform because of the mess the school made with the supply? Or have they conveniently missed that bit out?
Our HT is quite good on this, he's a bit of a uniform traditionalist, no blazers off without permission etc but if anyone can't get hold of logo'd stuff for any reason at all he keeps a small stock in to lend to the student until their parent can pick it up. All he asks ids that it comes back clean within 2 weeks. Last year apparently he had a stock of black socks in to counteract the fashion for luminous odd socks...

Morgause Sun 08-Sep-13 08:55:52

* I think the amount of time spent arguing with kids about wearing the right uniform is absolutely pointless.*

This is so true. As a teacher I have far better things to do with my time than check what children are wearing.

NoComet Sun 08-Sep-13 09:01:37

Does DH do less work on dress down Fridays, than on Monday to Thursday in a shirt and tie. Does he do less work on his working from home days, wearing a T shirt and shorts?

Is HW done in your PJs less correct than HW done in a nice summer dress.

It's a load of bollocks!

My DD attends a SN school and her uniform is Black with a White shirt.

There are some stupid rules about shoes, though, kicker boots are fine, but no Doc Martins, which would be the most practical and would last for years ( these fit in with her Goth style).

She is travelling a long way to school to build up independence and knowledge of planning and using pulic transport ( she may never pass a driving test).
It doesn't help that the school doesn't have lockers, for winter boots to be stored in, unlike many workplaces.

As said adult women don't wear ties, except for some Airlines, make up is allowed in work, insisted upon in some roles.

School uniform is fine, as long there is common sense.

needasilverlining Sun 08-Sep-13 09:14:38

Good point - my most productive day of the week is the one spent working at home, on the sofa, in the scruffiest clothes I own. I feel better at work when I'm smart, but it doesn't make my work better.

WorrySighWorrySigh Sun 08-Sep-13 09:29:14

Uniform is a cheap trick used by weak Heads. 'Look how I have made everyone dress smartly' preens the Head.

The uniform is used to punish students for trivial reasons. It is also used to 'make an example of' any student the Head feels may need to be taken down a peg or two.

My DCs school has warned that it will be cracking down on uniform. This is a school which is in and out of special measures and last year managed to plummet to the very foot of the league tables for reasons of managerial incompetence. Yet the Head presumes to tell me how to dress my children. I feel that the Head could be spending his time more wisely than issuing sartorial instructions.

In my opinion Lesley Ellis should be spending her time on managing her school not worrying about what clothes the students are wearing.

gallicgirl Sun 08-Sep-13 09:36:39

Just checked the ofsted report for the school my friend's son attends where they don't wear uniform and call teachers by their first name.
Although there are some concerns over teaching, behaviour and safety of pupils is good and they are praised for pupil morale and parent involvement.
The lack of uniform isn't even mentioned because it's such a non-issue.

grumpyoldbat Sun 08-Sep-13 09:44:19

YABVU, I completely for the general principal of having a uniform.

However I think punishing a child for the uniform suppliers failure is cruel, idiotic and detrimental to that child's confidence and ultimately their education.

School uniform should not be prohbitively expensive. One of the positives of uniform used to be that it made it harder for the children from poorer homes to be singled out and bullied. I think compulsory logos should be limited to jumpers and ties. The rest should be something like x coloured skirt/trousers y coloured blouse/shirt with perhaps additional rules such as length of skirt, no denim, no open toed shoes etc. Parents should be allowed to shop around for the most economical option for them.

Very expensive uniform only available from one shop is just asking for supply problems, its setting children from poorer households for extra punishment because their parents can't afford it so try and get away with buying eg a plain black skirt. It's setting children up to look scruffy because they could only afford one so they don't have a change to wear while it's washed (only washed once a week at the weekend no matter what), or scruffy because it's bought ridiculously too big to last as long as possible and worn until it falls apart. State education is supposed to be equal access for all and pricing a section of the community out of school flies in the face of this. Before anyone says it their may not be an alternative school to go to.

The OP made a comment about work parallels. I feel it's not the same at all. The majority of uniformed work places I've had contact with supply the uniform for their staff. Therefore cost and supply problems don't punish the staff member. Dress codes elsewhere have been general enough to allow for shopping about for the most affordable way to comply. Any way you're working there and being paid to do so.

daftdame Sun 08-Sep-13 09:50:23

Does that school spend the extra money they receive for FSM children to buy their uniform for them? This would make the system a bit fairer.

Or are they too busy creaming off the commission somebody said they got from the uniform suppliers?

chrome100 Sun 08-Sep-13 10:04:57

I think uniforms are a good idea. I wish that I had a logoed polo shirt and skirt for work as I hate choosing what to wear every day.

Ineedmorepatience Sun 08-Sep-13 10:07:43

My local secondary is our only choice for Dd3, the HT there is bonkers about uniform. Blazer buttons have to be fastened and blazerd are kept on at all times. Clip on ties prevent the children I repeat children from being able to loosen them in hot weather or hot classrooms.

If the uniform code is broken the children are either put into isolation or excluded if they are repeat offenders.

I want my child to go to school to learn in a happy environment where she can be comfortable and relaxed.

My child has autism and sensory issues!! Sending her into this awful dictatorship fills me with dread sad

She currently wears a uniform of pull on school trousers and an oversized sweatshirt. She looks smart ish and fits in with the other children.

OP yabu!

DameDeepRedBetty Sun 08-Sep-13 10:09:32

School uniform seems to be a very Anglophone thing, it's used in a lot of fee-paying schools around the world (many of which are modelled on British Public Schools), but only appears in state schools in the UK and some former British colonies.

When UK uniform-wearing schools have a non-uniform day for charity, as most seem to, the angst about what to wear is dreadful, it's such a one-shot deal. And the outfits can be incredibly inappropriate! But the French children at the Lycee that we exchange with each year don't have any of these problems. They work in jeans and trainers, with longer or shorter sleeves depending on the time of year, and save 'dressing up' for parties.

DameDeepRedBetty Sun 08-Sep-13 10:14:26

grumpyoldbat makes a fair point about workplace uniforms. The only places where the staff have to pay for their clothing that I can think of are some clothes shops, where the assistants are expected to wear something from the current range. A discount is normally given though.

frogspoon Sun 08-Sep-13 10:15:55

Most secondaries I have taught in expect smart formal workwear from sixth form students, some insist on a suit and others expect jacket and tie for boys, tailored skirt/dress/ trousers etc for girls.

I think this is better than uniform because it is preparing them for the world of work.

soverylucky Sun 08-Sep-13 10:22:40

I think it would perhaps be better to focus on children being smart rather than the actual uniform. At my primary school (years and years ago) there was no uniform but you were expected to wear a pinafore, and shirt and school shoes. The colour didn't matter but we were all smart. The boys wore school trousers or shorts but could be grey or black. The same with the jumper - any colour as long as it was a school type jumper.

I find that school uniforms for girls in particular are rubbish - the tie thing is stupid as they will never wear one again. What makes the girls look scruffy is the skirt hitched up, the excessive teenage experimental make-up and the crazy hair do's. Currently the trend here seems to be for huge messy buns on the head and thick eyebrow pencil. Schools are supposed to prepare you for adult life so I think the idea of turning up for work neat and tidy are the most important things - not the style of skirt or colour.

ivykaty44 Sun 08-Sep-13 10:24:39

where is the proof that a school child will get better results if they abide by the school uniform rules than a child who doesn't.

I sat on friday and watched my dds school empty and some of the girls have trousers that are narrow and others have trousers that are straight - how does this impact on their results?

ivykaty44 Sun 08-Sep-13 10:26:39

chrome100 [http://www.logoworkwear.co.uk/logoworkwear/index.asp here you go]]

ivykaty44 Sun 08-Sep-13 10:26:56
Lancelottie Sun 08-Sep-13 10:29:02

The thing is, though (to those who feel that blazers are a foretaste of smart office wear), a lot of school life is very unlike being in an office.

DS's typical day last term would consist of chemistry experiments, art-room chaos involving acrylic paint and hot plastic moulding, a spot of soldering, and maybe a lunchtime spent in the drama studio or digging an eco-pond.

Would you honestly choose to do any of that in a suit under normal circumstances, let alone playing footie at lunchtime?

MinesAPintOfTea Sun 08-Sep-13 10:33:02

Not RTFT, but I've got the link for the news story. Having read that I think its ridiculous: sending a year 11 boy who was too tall for the uniform shop home because his smart black trousers weren't logoed, not giving a period of grace on the old uniform etc.

If you must do something, lines at break time but don't exclude children from education because they don't have the correct overpriced smart clothing (when they have come dressed appropriately: smart trousers/shirt).

Its even funnier because of the poloshirt/sweatshirt top. Hardly business dress.

ringaringarosy Sun 08-Sep-13 10:34:47

I hate uniforms,theyshould jsut get rid of them,it doesnt matter what people wear or what colour their hair is!let them get on with it and just educate them ffs.the school system in this country is so old fashioned and not in a good way.

sashh Sun 08-Sep-13 10:37:06

I have no idea who Leslie Ellis is and google did not enlighten me.

School uniform for VI form is ridiculous, how much does a blazer to fit a 6ft man cost? And what a waste as it can't be worn for work or uni. In fact I don't think VI forms should have a dress code.

I work in FE so no uniform and I've never seen a pelmet/belt like tight skirt, in fact I rarely see a skirt. Mostly it is jeans or denim shorts with opaque tights underneath.

I've only seen the underwear of one student, and she was a mature student who hadn't realised anything was on show.

but only appears in state schools in the UK and some former British colonies.

Not sure Japan has ever been a colony, or China. Brazil has uniform, but I think it is a top worn with jeans.

Uniforms used to only be worn at fee paying schools. Then grammar schools (many of which used to be independent) it was only when comprehensives came in that school uniforms became universal, and then only for secondary.

Personally I think if the school want strict uniform rules then they should supply the uniform as would be done in industry/the work place.

There would be no problems of people not being able to afford the logo or only being able to afford one shirt for a week. And why has no school made culottes compulsory instead of skirts, there is no way they can have the waistband turned up.

ringaringarosy Sun 08-Sep-13 10:37:09

school life is nothing like real life,unless you go on to teach.

queenofdrama Sun 08-Sep-13 10:41:22

Every child who attends school must abide by the rules. It's not a fashion parade nor is it a place to dress like a slob. It's quite simple really.

daftdame Sun 08-Sep-13 10:47:10

queenofdrama Uniform is not always within the child's control though, it is the parent who buys it.

Some uniforms are incredibly difficult for children with some SENs, as Ineedmorepatience, mentioned above. An ill thought out uniform policy can single these children out unnecessarily.

grumpyoldbat Sun 08-Sep-13 10:47:11

I don't think anyone is arguing that they should be allowed to dress like slobs queen, I'm certainly not.

WorrySighWorrySigh Sun 08-Sep-13 10:56:51

But why punish a student for not having the right uniform at all? My DCs are not responsible for buying their uniform, I am. Punishing a student in place of the parent is cowardly.

Why do students need to labour for years in ill fitting uniform to prepare them for the world of work? They seem to be able to learn far harder things in a far shorter period of time.

School uniform is a sham. Cheap fabric, badly made garments. What does that teach our children except to dress cheaply and badly?

Yabu. If one size fits all then why the hell do people struggle do much to find uniform that fits their child. To only have one choice of trouser with a logo is ridiculous. What hope of half the kids have of fitting it. What in earth is wrong with what most primary schools allow. Logo jumper/cardigan and the rest can be bought from any supermarket or uniform shop or department store. Do those on tight budgets can still get hold of shirts and skirts etc.

And what does sending them home achieve? Aside from disrupting everyone. The uniform wasn't even available ffs.

I don't object to uniform but as other posters have pointed out, it doesn't fit some kids, parents can't afford it, kids can be sensitive to the material. Seriously, if anyone ever tells my dd she can't take her blazer off I will go nuts. Getting to hot causes her eczema to flare up and it's important she can regulate it as best she can by adding or removing jumpers etc.

As long as skirts aren't too short, trousers aren't to tight etc and the kids look smart what difference does the logo make.

BoffinMum Sun 08-Sep-13 10:59:17

Lanceottie, my DS1 came home with white acrylic paint on his £60 blazer once. Frothing does not even begin to describe what I spent the evening doing.

Christ's Hospital dress the kids in all purpose Tudor uniforms given out for free. Now that I approve of.

Every child who attends school must abide by the rules. It's not a fashion parade nor is it a place to dress like a slob. It's quite simple really.

But surely ill fitting badly made uniform just looks scruffy. ?

LuisSuarezTeeth Sun 08-Sep-13 11:16:00

DS's school did this last year. Took the supply contract away from the local outfitter and insisted on logos on trousers and skirts.

The quality was shit, the trousers fell to bits after 2 weeks. I mended them 5 times in one term. Not only that, you can ONLY buy from the school shop 1pm to 3pm on Tuesday and Thursday.

Kids were sent home repeatedly, there was no phasing in and it created one hell of a lot of bad feeling.

I like uniform because it avoids the reinforcement of rich and poor for the kids, but there is no sense in this logo shite. It's overly controlling ime, which is how OP comes across too.

Oh, and the sizing is weird too. The trousers seem to have been designed for eight foot tall bean canes with no arse.

Chivetalking Sun 08-Sep-13 11:17:22

Sixth formers should be required to wear school blazers and ties? Are you serious OP?

They are young adults and should be treated as such.

As for uniform per se I can see the advantages but I also see them forrin school kids doing just fine without it which leads me to wonder if we're being sold a pup especially when schools have a nice little earner in commissions from exclusive suppliers.

LuisSuarezTeeth Sun 08-Sep-13 11:19:21

What next? Regulation haircuts?

LuisSuarezTeeth Sun 08-Sep-13 11:22:44

There is something a little weird about children being dressed like adults in an office. Shirt, tie and jacket? Surely they can be smart without being dressed like a fully fledged grown up chained to a desk?

It puzzles me how teachers would think that they would get the best out if their pupils if they werent comfortable. Surely that's the whole point of trying things on and shopping around. No one can honestly tell me that having to have tight belts or bunched up waist bands etc is conducive to being comfortable. Would drive kids to distraction.

TheBigJessie Sun 08-Sep-13 11:45:54

Frankly, I don't get most excuses for uniform policies.

If it was really about preparing children for the world of work, there wouldn't be a school in the land where the girls wore ties. Oh, and all the girls would have compulsory make-up-for-work classes! They wouldn't be being told to remove it upon arrival at school.

Call me cynical, but I heavily suspect my make-up-free face would have been approved of at a school, but as adults, my husband and I suspect it factors against me at interviews.

Lancelottie Sun 08-Sep-13 12:17:22

Boffin, I let DS carry on wearing his (£28) school logoed jumper even after it had been decorated with acrylic paint and had burn holes in it. It still met regulations, if not normal standards of dress and decency!

Anyhow, I hate waste and there was no way we could hand it down. But an all-in-one camouflage suit would frankly have been a better bet for his school day.

pudcat Sun 08-Sep-13 12:18:15

Why can logos not be sold separately as sew on badges? Then parents could buy the right colour uniform at supermarkets etc and save money. Maybe MPs should lobbied in this time of recession.

fackinell Sun 08-Sep-13 12:26:47

Totally agree!! Round our way I often have the 'is that a skirt or a scarf' dilemma, hair like an explosion in a paint factory, mandatory odd socks and converse/vans and pin cushion faces. My old guidance teacher will be doing backflips in her grave at some of the monstrosities in my old school.

Eeeeeowwwfftz Sun 08-Sep-13 12:56:41

Threads like this depress me. Not because of uniform per se (I can take it or leave it except in extreme cases) but because of the frequently-expressed view that the (main? only?) function of school is turn children into little office drones who can sleepwalk straight into a dull but adequate career as soon as they leave school.

Teenagers "get" clothes and the statements they make with particular clothing choices. They may need some guidance on what sort of statement might or might not be appropriate in certain situations but they don't need to practice that by wearing an ugly blazer every day for seven years. Nothing looks scruffier than a teenager trying to look smart by wearing a rubbish cheap suit under duress. And you'll probably find that the only situation in which a blazer is expected dress outside of school is if you are invited to join a gentleman's drinking club.

Here's a game for a wet afternoon: do a google image search on Richard Branson or James Dyson and count the number of ties.

ivykaty44 Sun 08-Sep-13 13:12:33

So if each logo was sold for £7 and you can get a supermarket polo shirt for £3 and the school logo polo shirt costs £8 which would be cheaper?

Picturesinthefirelight Sun 08-Sep-13 13:18:55

I would imagine a logo badge would only be about £3-4. And where can you get a school polo shirt for £8. Ours are between £11-£14 depending on size.

LuisSuarezTeeth Sun 08-Sep-13 13:28:47

Selling a logo badge is pointless. The schools sell logoed trousers and skirts to regulate the style. It's nothing to do with identity or pride.

Dobbiesmum Sun 08-Sep-13 13:42:06

Boffinmum thank you, that's the school I've been trying to think of!
Personally I would be less annoyed with forking out for the overpriced uniform if the teachers were made to wear it too.
It's actually a very smart well thought out uniform with soecific allowances for anyone unable to wear pants with zips for example but it's damn expensive, even though there are no restrictions on shirt and blouses, everything else needs to be regulation and the cost mounts up especially if you have more than one lot of uniform to buy.

ohtowinthelottery Sun 08-Sep-13 14:25:26

I don't agree that wearing uniform or not is what leads to young people turning up for job interviews in inappropriate clothing. My DS wore uniform from age 4. He wore shirt and tie at Primary and Polo Shirt and sweatshirt at Secondary.

He has no illusions about what is appropriate business wear - he was required to wear 'business wear' when he did work experience in Yr 10 and a suit/smart business attire when he attended an Enterprise event with other schools and local businesses. He has taken Music Grade exams and knows he is required to dress in black trousers and white shirt. It has nothing to do with the fact his schools have had a uniform requirement - he is just educated in what is appropriate to wear and when.
He is now in 6th form and wears jeans/chinos and t-shirts. If he was going to a business type event, his College would instruct him to wear "appropriate business wear". The rest of the time he can wear what he pleases. No way would DS turn up for a job interview in what he wears for 6th form.

annemary12 Sun 08-Sep-13 14:37:33

Pupils when at school are at their place of work and therefore should wear some form of smart attire even in the 6th form.

Why do some posters want pupils to be able to show off what ideas they have about fashion. Although there is no proven fact about whether school uniform improves academic performance. If the school monitors and has a sensible uniform policy the pupils wont look like a disgrace. If they was no benefit to be gained by school uniform why do public school and private school pupils use the old school tie .

LuisSuarezTeeth Sun 08-Sep-13 14:46:45

Pupils when at school are at their place of work

No, they are at their place of LEARNING.

0utnumbered Sun 08-Sep-13 15:07:46

My kids aren't at school yet but it wasn't all that long ago I left school.

Does anyone think of the kids when designing these uniforms?! blazers and ties are so bloody uncomfortable! Boys trousers are really really unflattering on young girls who have hips and other curves and not allowing makeup is pathetic, I don't go out without makeup now let alone as a hormonal, image conscious teen!

I thought that one of the points of uniform was to avoid bullying and discrimination too, so why ask for flipping school logos on everything and have a uniform where the blazer alone costs £30? Nothing wrong with plain white polo shirts, black smart skirt or trousers (allowing those designed to suit a female shape too!) with low heeled black shoes, to include plain black pumps, maybe a jumper with the school logo would be cheaper than a blazer, or even better get a logo that can be sewn on to a plain black jumper or cardigan! job done, more of teachers attention can be focussed on assisting the children to learn!

pointythings Sun 08-Sep-13 15:32:09

OP, Old school tie = Old boys' and girls' network - all about giving jobs to your mates, not to the most competent people. Is that really what you want to promote?

And I notice you haven't said a thing in response to the many posters who have raised the point that in this particular case, students were not able to obtain the correct uniform because the supplier messed up - so presumably you think in this instance it is still OK for the HT to have reacted in the way she did? I would respectfully suggest that there was no common sense or reason involved in this particular case and that it is not a good example of why uniform should be enforced.

As for the 'preparing them for the world of work' and 'school is their place of work' arguments - yawn. The world over, in countries where children do better than in UK schools but don't wear uniform, these children seem to manage to get themselves appropriately dressed for work. Are British children really so much thicker than their international counterparts? I don't think so, do you?

marriedinwhiteisback Sun 08-Sep-13 15:35:04

In that case OP teachers too are at their place of work and should always be appropriately dressed like the students then. No flip flops, no tattoos, no bare shoulders, no tee shirts. No? Respect has to be earned in my opinion.

What would you prefer the focus to be on OP? Bullying or uniform? Disruption or uniform? Do you have teenagers OP?

I support uniform; ds had to wear a business suit in 6th form; didn't stop any of the boys at his public school from personalising within the rules. Pink Friday, odd cufflink day, black lace ups as pointed as they could get away with, wearing their reading bands because they weren't jewellery.

Go on OP - how old are your children?

annemary12 Sun 08-Sep-13 15:44:02

My DD is 14 and at a Girls Grammar school,the girls wear blazers and ties up to the sixth form and wear business suit in the sixth form the few boys in the sixth form have to wear ties with thier suits. My DS is 17 at a boys Grammar and he has to wear a smart suit in black with the schools sixth form tie.

shrum Sun 08-Sep-13 15:54:25

My DD attends the school in question. I think the news reports are inaccurate. Children wearing non logoed trousers or skirts (of which my DD is one) have been given a card to cover them until half term as long as they are wearing appropriate items, ie no jeggings. She doesn't know anyone who was sent home. I'm not defending LE in any way, the trouser style does not fit DD so it is causing us a bit of a nightmare, currently have two pairs on order which the school are going to have to cover the alteration costs!

MinesAPintOfTea Sun 08-Sep-13 15:57:33

And if they change the uniform at short notice and you try but fail to buy the new uniform what would you do?

marriedinwhiteisback Sun 08-Sep-13 15:59:53

You're very lucky your dc are at selective grammar schools OP - presumably their lessons don't get too disrupted by trouble makers and the standard of teaching is high.

I have no issue with uniform but I have an issue when schools make it more important than dealing with behaviours that are actually illegal. I also have a problem with staff who attend work looking unprofessional whilst insisting on styleless conformity among the pupils. Our dd attended a top 100 comp with a rigorous uniform - we moved her to the independent sector because more important issues were not being dealt with yet there was a weekly letter about length of skirts and hair colour.

With the exception of tights and underwear I don't think one item of dd's uniform can be bought on the high street. The blaxer was £130. Not an issue as a percentage of the overall expenditure but for many families in the UK it is and it is wrong that uniform takes a higher place in many schools than quality of teaching environment and ensuring conduct is acceptable and conducive to learning.

Our dd is top average - a selective state school with few problems around behaviour was not an option where intake covered the intellectual and social spectrums. Do you not understand that it is a question of priorities?

annemary12 Sun 08-Sep-13 16:22:20

My DD and friends have pride in their school and actually enjoy wearing their uniforms. DD and friends like showing their school of in a positive light.

DD and friends have commented how much a dump one school is in particular, that School has loose uniform requirements. They call the sixth formers "SCALLYS" because of the strange and scruffy clothes they wear.

It is not the 1970s or 80s when it was a pupils mission to protest about school uniform. Organising walk outs after watching GRANGE HILL, many pupils much prefer to be smart and show a belonging to their school.

I accept that maybe the head tried to change the uniform requirements without making sure the uniform was readily available. However as Shrum as explained what was reported may not have happened.

daftdame Sun 08-Sep-13 16:24:57

I hope you don't encourage the name calling OP...

annemary12 Sun 08-Sep-13 16:28:58

NO i dont Daftdame. The name calling is not about their Academic abilty but about how they dress.

daftdame Sun 08-Sep-13 16:32:15

Good, I am pleased you don't encourage it. Not very pleasant even if it is about their dress rather than academic ability, quite frankly.

grumpyoldbat Sun 08-Sep-13 16:33:42

Still not acceptable to join in name calling.

Ahlaam Sun 08-Sep-13 16:34:56

Couldn't agree more OP!

It is becoming rather tedious seeing parents incapable of saying to their teenagers that rules must be adhered to. No one likes going into work at 9:00am wearing certain smart attire but that is what work dictates and as adult we learn to abide by those rules.

I will not froth at the mouth about this...must walk away.

daftdame Sun 08-Sep-13 16:36:58

No, frothing is not a good sign Ahlaam.

Talkinpeace Sun 08-Sep-13 16:42:17

Uniform has a very simple purpose : to subsume the identity of the individual into that of the herd.
That is why military forces and churches have them.
Most early schools in the UK were linked to military/church families.
Later, state schools brought in free choice of clothes to rebel against the public schools.
Then, as inequality started to rise in the UK, uniforms were brought in to state schools "to stop bullying"
and the grammar schools went overboard trying to out public school the public schools on uniform.
What then developed was a poisonous non causative link between higher results and uniforms
(selective schools had uniforms and did better so it must be the uniform, not the selection)
BUT
the genie is out of the bottle
and UK kids leisure clothes are not suitable for school nowadays (hence the silly "suits" at 6th form)

TheBigJessie Sun 08-Sep-13 17:02:38

OP, I think your daughter's behaviour is utterly deplorable, and it presumably reflects very badly on the ethos of her school. I'd far rather have scruffy looking 17 year olds than ones who thought it was appropriate to belittle others for their dress.

Pray tell her to spend a little more time on her own A-levels, and a little less time on practising being a cross between Katie Hopkins and one of the nastier style journalists.

Morgause Sun 08-Sep-13 17:09:19

DD and friends have commented how much a dump one school is in particular, that School has loose uniform requirements. They call the sixth formers "SCALLYS" because of the strange and scruffy clothes they wear.

What appalling behaviour. I'm so glad I have no DCs at school with those little bitches.

TheBigJessie Sun 08-Sep-13 17:12:08

Ahlaam :^It is becoming rather tedious seeing parents incapable of saying to their teenagers that rules must be adhered to. No one likes going into work at 9:00am wearing certain smart attire but that is what work dictates and as adult we learn to abide by those rules.^

Funny you should say that. The OP seems incapable of telling her child that name-calling and pathetic tribalism between the pupils of different schools is unacceptable!

marriedinwhiteisback Sun 08-Sep-13 17:15:25

You don't turn a dump into a good school by having a logoed uniform OP. You do it by fostering mutual respect, dealing with dysfunctional behaviour, providing diffrentiated learning, and by having high expectations.

I think your views are formed because you live in a grammar school area and your dC passed the entrance exam. Most of the dc they are educated with will come from non chaotic backgrounds and will have been taught right from wrong. Where that teaching is missing in a stable loving home, it needs to be encouraged and enforced in schools and other public sector environments. A uniform which is expensive and heavily policed is not a panacea for society's ills. Support, excellence and a sound moral code are too often missing especially with non or quasi selective intakes. DD's state comp had a lovely uniform and afb reputation. The present was not so good and she wasn't proud of the uniform; she was scared to go to school. Her current indy uniform is gross beyond measure but she's so much happier and goes to school with a spring in her step rather than dread. We were lucky we could afford to take her out but for mmany it isn't so simple and it isn't so easy.

Darkesteyes Sun 08-Sep-13 17:23:53

TheBigJessie i said the same thing about make up on one of these threads but i didnt put it as well as you.

marriedinwhite i dont always agree with all your posts but on this i TOTALLY agree.

Their priorties are seriously out of whack and their ideas need to be seriously bucked up.

WorrySighWorrySigh Sun 08-Sep-13 17:44:19

"You don't turn a dump into a good school by having a logoed uniform OP."

Totally agree marriedinwhite. My DCs' school changed to a blazer and tie uniform and then plummeted to the bottom of the league tables.

OP and her DD sound very smug pleased about the school they have access to. The uniform just advertises what lucky clever people they are.

We have access to just the one completely crap school. Why on earth would my DCs want to advertise that they go their?

WorrySighWorrySigh Sun 08-Sep-13 17:44:54

there

LynetteScavo Sun 08-Sep-13 17:52:43

YABU, simply because most sixth-formers go on to university for three years, and spend their life in jeans before putting a suit on for a job interview. Which the majority of them seem to be able to manage.

My DSs school has uniform until y11, and they are strict about it (if you are going to have a uniform, you may as well ask everyone to wear it properly) but it's jeans and t-shirts in Y12 &13, and their A-level results are very good.

thebody Sun 08-Sep-13 17:53:34

op if my dds behaved like yours I would be utterly ashamed and devastated. how vile and smug you both sound.

I think the HT is a daft cow who obviously has major issues with bullying and control.. she's a bully.

school uniform is a total load of old outdated bollocs that costs a fortune, doesn't improve standards, is decisive and silly, wastes much valuable teacher time and causes disruption and discord in schools.

European schools do far better than we do in their own clothes.

pointythings Sun 08-Sep-13 17:55:58

OP I hope you told your DD off for her name calling - that's an appalling attitude. I wonder where it came from? hmm

You still haven't addressed the issue in this particular case, which was supplier failure and the pupils being unable to obtain the uniform. Funnily enough I am now wondering why that is?

LynetteScavo Sun 08-Sep-13 17:57:00

Personally I think 6th formers in "office wear" tend to look dire.

If they think they will be able to turn up to an actually office wearing the same type of clothes they wore to 6th form they will have a shock.

Highlander Sun 08-Sep-13 18:02:19

14/15 yr olds in school will behave very differently to the adults that emerge as at the end of their school career.

A rebellious, pink-haired teenager does not an irresponsible adult make.

Talkinpeace Sun 08-Sep-13 18:03:11

Lynette
simply because most sixth-formers go on to university for three years
what ever gave you that idea?
Education is now compulsory to 17 for all pupils
and even then, less than 1/3 ever went to University (the other 10% were mature and part time students)

"office wear" is little preparation for being a plumber or a carpenter or an offshore North Sea diver
"office wear" is about breaking their souls that little bit more

annemary12 Sun 08-Sep-13 18:05:54

Neither me or my DD are "VILE" for simply wanting to look smart.

When you were kids did you not call other kids from rival schools!

I do not encourage my very "NAICE" and respectful DD to call them "SCALLYS" but kids use these words in jest not in nastiness.

Please refrain from calling me or my DD "VILE".

LifeHuh Sun 08-Sep-13 18:09:02

The school that stood out around here until recently for general scruffyness was one of the girls' grammars.

I actively dislike the whole wearing business attire in the sixth form idea.Why? What is the point of it,exactly?
I have a professional job,I have never had to wear a suit to work,for which I am very grateful,as I find suit jackets seriously uncomfortable.Dh is in IT - he doesn't wear a suit.DMum was a teacher...need I go on? Lots of adults don't have such prescriptive standards in their workplace,so why is it necessary at school?

DD (significantly smaller than average) had enough trouble finding anything remotely smart and fitting the business casual code in her sixth form - not a lot of call for business casual in Age 12-13. Not many suits for girls either.

I won't use the term vile I will just say that you don't sound pleasant. And judgemental. I hope you Appreciate being in a financial position to be able to dress smart, but the ridiculously expensive uniform. Many arent, and to pass judgement on children unable conform to your ideals is just bloody mean.

They are people under those clothes.

Buy

Morgause Sun 08-Sep-13 18:17:16

I do not encourage my very "NAICE" and respectful DD to call them "SCALLYS" but kids use these words in jest not in nastiness

Yeh sure they do. wink

They do sound vile, OP. I remember their type when I was at school. If anyone complained about the bitchiness they were "only joking".

marriedinwhiteisback Sun 08-Sep-13 18:19:23

No, OP. I went to grammar school and didn't. My DS has just left one of the highest performing indy/public schools in the UK and doesn't. (And BTW he went to an interview at Oxford in jeans and received an unconditional offer which he declined in preference for a less elite uni with a course more to his taste but which gave him a stiff offer). My dd now goes to a very naice indy and doesn't. My DH went to the local comp and still feels sad for some of the kids who went there.

Just to irk you further, dd had highlights last week, has had her eyebrows threaded and has had a make up lesson at john Lewis for which I paid and wears make-up for schoolbut won't be called on it because it's so natural looking.

I can be a bit smug sometimes OP and have woound up a few peope on here over the years usually due to not understanding other people's lives, but I'm not nasty and I don't name call and if my DC did they'd be grounded.

pointythings Sun 08-Sep-13 18:26:59

Balls, OP. Kids use these words knowing exactly what their impact will be and then hide behind the 'oh, it's only in jest' line. Which is vile. And if you are condoning it, I suggest you check the fit of the shoe.

I most certainly did not call kids from other schools names, my parents would have come down like a ton of bricks if I had. And so should you. Be ashamed of yourself.

TheBigJessie Sun 08-Sep-13 18:27:46

When you were kids did you not call other kids from rival schools!

Indeed I did not!

grumpyoldbat Sun 08-Sep-13 18:33:03

I've heard that before. It's OK to call people names because it's just a joke. The victim of name calling just doesn't have a sense of humour. hmm. Op let me give you a useful piece of advice, being on the receiving end of name calling is horrible, in fact it feels vile. Empathy is another valuable lesson for teenagers to learn.

I wonder what you and your daughter would call myself and my colleagues if you saw our work clothes. I dread to think and that's us following what are actually quite strict rules. Luckily we don't have to fork out £100s for it.

It needs to be noted that a uniform can be smart without being really expensive.

thebody Sun 08-Sep-13 18:34:59

to call other people scalleys and laugh at others dress sense is vile actually and nasty.

that's what I taught my kids anyway.

we judge people on how they are not how they look, what school they go to or how much money they have.

horrible values.

grumpyoldbat Sun 08-Sep-13 18:35:19

Op I never called children from other schools names. If I had my parents and teachers would have meted out hefty punishment.

marriedinwhiteisback Sun 08-Sep-13 18:44:18

Actually as well as being grounded they would receive the tongue lashing from hell. There was a girl at the comp whose antics at 12 would have made most people's hair curl and I think she should have been excluded because no-one at the school had the skill to deal with her. DD - two years away from it and still hearing the odd snippet through Facebook now says "it's so sad, I'm sure x was the way she was because she's got so many half siblings and they live all over the place and she's had four "dads". I couldn't believe this girl's behaviour and I still think mainstream school is possibly the wrong place for her. My dd couldn't cope at the time but I'm very very proud that she has love in her heart.

marriedinwhiteisback Sun 08-Sep-13 19:01:48

Actually as well as being grounded they would receive the tongue lashing from hell. There was a girl at the comp whose antics at 12 would have made most people's hair curl and I think she should have been excluded because no-one at the school had the skill to deal with her. DD - two years away from it and still hearing the odd snippet through Facniebook now says "it's so sad, I'm sure x was the way she was because she's got so many half siblings and they live all over the place and she's had four "dads". I couldn't believe this girl's behaviour and I still think mainstream school is possibly the wrong place for her. My dd couldn't cope at the time but I'm very very proud that she has love in her heart.

TheBigJessie Sun 08-Sep-13 19:04:18

married I think it's great your daughter is willing to consider the girl's background at 14. I think I was probably in year 12 before I was willing to think anything other than "s/he's a..." about the behaviour of children I'd encountered years earlier! grin

pointythings Sun 08-Sep-13 19:12:52

married I hope the OP reads your last post and sees the difference in attitude. I hope you're proud of your DD and the way you've raised her. cake

annemary12 Sun 08-Sep-13 19:14:00

My DD was smacked in the face just for wearing her school blazer. Two girls from THAT school were waiting for DD when she got off the bus and just ran up to her and hit her.

We knew the school, the ages "16"and names of the culprits. When we rang the school to report that my DD had been attacked, the schools response was "DD SHOULD NOT WEAR HER BLAZER" because it might inflame our girls. Luckly DD was not hurt, but what should you call these type of people.

DD and friends when leaving the school bus have to take a torrent of foul mouthed abuse all from the pupils of this school. My DD and friends have only resorted to calling back after months of abuse. No i do not condone calling people names. I know all about being "POOR" having grown up on council estates and having parents that would spend money on booze and fags rather than proper school uniform for me.

annemary12 Sun 08-Sep-13 19:16:57

My DD and her friends have only resorted to calling back after months of abuse.

daftdame Sun 08-Sep-13 19:18:46

Sounds like the schools need to broker some sort of peace agreement.

Your poor DD. Although name calling won't help in the long run. It is understandable from a teenager, especially in this situation though.

The problems sound as if they run much deeper than uniforms though. Saying that, the uniforms might be adding to a certain sort of tribalism, making children from each school easily identifiable.

marriedinwhiteisback Sun 08-Sep-13 19:21:08

Eh OP when my ds was 11/12 and in the junior school he had to catch the public bus home ( I work full time). His blazer was scarlet. I arranged with school that he left his blazer at school and he wore an anonymous black anorak on the way home. Common sense. Although they were a loving school and a few weeks later detoured the school bus for the boys in our neck of the woods.

annemary12 Sun 08-Sep-13 19:33:52

The head of our "school" has tried to speak to the head of "that" school.That school dont want to get involved, they say its not in school time or on school premises so are not responsible.

Could the reason "that" school dont need to get involved is because some of the culprits are not wearing "SCHOOL UNIFORM" and so cannot be I.D, how lucky and convenient for them.

marriedinwhiteisback Sun 08-Sep-13 19:36:27

OP. Please! When. You're. In. A. Hole. Stop. Digging.

I've no doubt you are a nice lady at heart who has gone above and beyond the call of duty for her DC but this approach isn't helping you and isn't helping the disenfranchised.

Thanks for supportive comments. I've had to learn many things the hard way and have tried to make sure the DC are more rounded than me and DH. Him in one direction and me in another. Being a parent is very very hard, even when everything is right. DS's latest is that we've disadvantaged him by letting him be privileged [ouch emoticon]!

thebody Sun 08-Sep-13 19:41:51

mmmn yes but of a drip feed here op. wonder why?

to be honest all the girls involved sound very nasty ANC a but childish.

where we live there are 3 huge schools, 2 high school mixed comps and one huge boarding/ day school and dd has friends in all of them. there is no trouble among the pupils who mix freely. they are all nice kids.

if your dd has been assaulted you should involve the police.

grumpyoldbat Sun 08-Sep-13 19:44:07

Op the behaviour you describe is disgusting but one of the things I try and teach my children is that 2 wrongs do not make a right and that if someone is abusive to you should strive to not lower yourself to their standards.

Some schools have uniforms that are so restrictive in which brands you buy that they easily cost £600 per year. I simply cannot afford that, I have to save and budget strictly to buy uniform as it is. It is NOT ad you suggest because I spend my money on booze and fags, I neither drink nor smoke and your suggestion is offensive. The only way I'd be able to afford a £600 uniform is to start skipping meals again. You probably think it's selfish of me but I don't want to do it again because the impact it had on my health was enough to put my job on the line due to my drop in efficiency. Losing my job would make us worse off and even less able to afford things. Despite what you chose to believe there are 1000s of families out there who work hard, spend sensibly and yet cannot afford to spend several hundred on a uniform. It doesn't mean they don't care about discipline or their child's education.

Morgause Sun 08-Sep-13 19:44:15

So it wasn't in jest as you said earlier?

Hmm. hmm

LuisSuarezTeeth Sun 08-Sep-13 19:47:27

Well, sounds like you're having a hard time OP. sorry about your dd.

Respect to you Married and your dd.

Come on. Drop the attitude and talk OP. You sound worried.

FredFredGeorge Sun 08-Sep-13 19:52:30

Aren't the only people wearing suits to work these days Estate Agents and other similar sales roles. Mostly ill fitting cheap supermarket polyester suits, so crap polyester uniform for the kids would seem pretty good prep. for that.

The majority of people in jobs don't wear suits though, so don't know about them, seems a bit more pointless.

Spidermama Sun 08-Sep-13 20:10:23

God school uniform, and those obsessed with it, make me fume. It's ugly, badly made of nasty synthetic material (DS's school specifies 'no cotton trousers' angry) de-humanising, deliberately humiliating and fails to prepare children for anything other than MacDonalds, air hostessing or the army.

People who bang on about something so petty and superficial as school uniform. Also, you've already won. Relax. You've achieved your petty little aim. Thanks to you I will be spending hours laundering horrible nylon shirts and bottle green jumpers for more than a decade to come. Don't start dictating what colour socks should be you weird perverts.

Honestly to me it feels punitive. Deadening. Like prison uniforms, designed to humiliate and further crush out any flare or personality left in the pupils.

And unless they're planning a career in MacDonalds or the army forcing them all to wear the same clothes prepares them for nothing apart from resentment.

MinesAPintOfTea Sun 08-Sep-13 20:22:09

annemary or maybe its that if the children can't positively be identified as part of "that school" they are not under the control of them. This is not a uniform issue, this is a divided community issue.

Why haven't you gone to the police about your DD being assaulted in a public space?

pointythings Sun 08-Sep-13 20:42:32

OP, I am sorry to hear that you and your family are having to put up with this kind of violent behaviour, but can you not see that a uniform in THAT school wouldn't resolve a thing?

spidermama my DDs' schools don't specify socks, so the DDs tend to go to school with wildly colourful socks, always worn as odd socks. grin Strangely enough this does not seem to have affected their academic achievements, nor has it destroyed law and order in their schools.

annemary12 Sun 08-Sep-13 20:54:35

Mines. My DH is a "Superintendent" and he has told me not to involve the "POLICE" because it will make DS /DD targets. ALso DD when attacked gave as good as she got despite being "14" yr9.

She was also not hurt and DH said it was not in DS/DD intrests to prosecute because as well as becoming a "target" she gave as good as she got. The incident took place in july and i believe the girls responsible have joined the 6th form at that school on a vocational course.

my DH would go "BALLISTIC" if he knew i had posted this. DH says the schools have to deal with this not the "POLICE".

marriedinwhiteisback Sun 08-Sep-13 21:10:42

Says as much about the state of the police as the state of schools OP. Right and wrong eh?

grumpyoldbat Sun 08-Sep-13 21:17:14

Nice to know the police don't want assaults reported. I was always under the impression that the school were only responsible while the pupils were on school grounds although some heads would discipline them. In fact it's what the police told my SIL when DN was assaulted.

If I ever have the misfortune to be assaulted I'll be sure to keep my mouth shut and let them away with it.

I'm sorry your dd is having a hard time, but the bullies are bullied because they r well.. Bullies. What they are wearing and what school they attend has no bearing on that fact. They would still have parents who didn't give a shit (if that's the reason) wherever they went.

It has FA to do with their uniform. Perhaps the school can come down harder but when schools aren't able to enforce parents get rid of nuts, quite what you expect them to do about upbringings I don't know,

Teach your dd to be the better person keep her head up high and take pride in raising her right. And be thankful she stands a better chance in this world than those poor kids who's parents don't care enough to do anything about their behaviour. Believe me they won't be laughing when it's pice cells and criminal records.

Nuts? Nits

nooka Mon 09-Sep-13 00:36:14

I see that the OP has now provided yet another reason why wearing school uniform is a bad thing. Without the uniform it would be a great deal less obvious who went to which school and the organised intra-school fights would become a lot less likely. At that level it is essentially tribalism, made worse by the divisive nature of selective schooling. No doubt the children at the comp think that the ones at grammar are stuck up snobs, being well aware what they are called in return.

OP I feel sorry for yo that you feel you can't report your dd's assault to the police (perhaps because from the sound of it she might well have been charged herself) and that you live in fear of your dh. I don't know what your dh is a "superintendent" of, but a fight outside of school grounds is absolutely under the police's authority, as a breach of the peace if nothing else.

annemary12 Mon 09-Sep-13 13:21:34

nooka. With DH being a Police Superintendent,there were two reasons why he did not want it reported.

1. Because DH is a Superintendent it could have made both DS/DD bigger targets with the pupils from the other school. It would be awful if every time DS/DD got of the school bus they heard "GRUNTING NOISES" and other disgusting remarks.

2. Because DD is a black belt in Judo and is excellent at Thai boxing,when the first girl hit DD she threw her to the ground and held the girl down. With DH being a senior police officer he was worried that if he was to "CAUTION" the other girl for the assault, he would have been forced to caution DD.

DH says unless a pupil is physical injured it is not in the school or pupils intrests to call the police. The pupil/pupils could end up with cautions for just pushing or minor incidents.

"THAT" school has had a reputation for 25 years, i should know i was"EDUCATED" there. I was determined that none of my DCs would ever have the bad luck of having to go "THAT" school.

daftdame Mon 09-Sep-13 13:38:10

annemary How do you think uniform would actually help improve matters at this 'other' school?

grumpyoldbat Mon 09-Sep-13 13:58:05

I think uniform is a red herring here. I really can't see it having a positive impact on discipline.

In fact if a very expensive uniform was introduced it could make things worse. By this I mean a uniform that the parents at this school couldn't or wouldn't buy that then led to the children being punished. This in turn could make them feel alienated and behave worse, even the good pupils in the school may not see the point of behaving if they're going to be punished for something outwith their control. I'm sure there are good pupils at this school btw but I think it's likely that the bad ones are a lot more noticable.

TheBigJessie Mon 09-Sep-13 14:07:22

Given that your family has experienced exactly why school rivalry should never be fostered, why were you apparently claiming that it was an ordinary thing that everyone did earlier? You have seen at first-hand exactly why it's not harmless!

It is appalling that your daughter was attacked because of her school. The other school doesn't need uniform though. The pupils' parents should read their children the riot act, and police should intervene when the pupils commit crimes.

expatdetroiter Mon 09-Sep-13 16:12:14

I wish my High School in Detroit had school uniform when i went there. One of the reasons i came to the uk 17 years ago was to escape from "DETROIT" which was becoming un liveable even in the Middle class areas.

One of the greatest things about the UK.s Education system is "SCHOOL UNIFORMS" . In AMERICA the Private and good Religious schools use school uniform and even some schools in the Public Schools system(STATE SYSTEM) have now made school uniform compulsory. those that have uniform have seen massive improvments in behaviour and academic standards. I am greatful that DD15 DS 17 have both been Educated at Kent Grammar Schools with strict uniform requirements.

My brother would give anything for his DCs in Detroit to wear School uniform. He would if he could afford to, send his DCs Private so that they did not have to be educated in the awful Detroit public school system with its free for all dress and "Metal" detectors for "GUNS".

MinesAPintOfTea Mon 09-Sep-13 16:28:55

OP that you have no faith in the police system is not the fault of the existence or not of school uniforms. Maybe your DH should sort out the police in your area so they take random assaults more seriously.

expat I don't think the problem in Detroit is lack of uniforms, I think its having guns which schoolchildren can access. Even in fairly rough inner city schools in the UK you can be fairly sure that the pupils doesn't have guns because we have gun control laws, not because the children are in uniforms.

Some children will throw objects or pull knives (rare, but it happens) in schools, but guns are vanishingly rare because so few people can own them.

SusanneLinder Mon 09-Sep-13 16:33:53

God help all those Uni students who must be failing in their education from wearing JEANS and TEESHIRTS.... grin

Lancelottie Mon 09-Sep-13 16:35:56

...and using 'RANDOM' quotes, clearly a feature of several of those who support 'SCHOOL uniforms'.

Darkesteyes Mon 09-Sep-13 16:38:13

OP Why did you claim the remarks were in "jest" when its clear they wernt.

needasilverlining Mon 09-Sep-13 18:05:17

Indeed, Lancelottie. Quite a 'uniform' STYLE, no?

motherinferior Mon 09-Sep-13 18:13:45

I loathe school uniform. I am extremely relieved that my daughter's secondary - after her non-uniform primary - is at least a fairly scruffy and conglomerate mix of garments that will just about pass muster.

I do not wish my children to take pride in being branded. I do want them to do well, academically, and have every expectation that their school will equip them to do this. I don't want them to look 'smart'. I want them to look like the energetic, imaginative young women that they are. DD1 spends her weekends in Very Short Shorts over opaque tights, and looks quite splendid.

I would upload a pic of me at Oxford, in really quite bizarre home-made clothes, but it would test your pelvic floors too far.

Tinlegs Mon 09-Sep-13 18:22:55

Love the idea that people have to wear a school uniform to "prepare" them for the world of work. My pupils (very mixed, tiny comp in Scotland) has former pupils who are lawyers, doctors and work on fish farms or boats. Should we segregate them on arrival? Give the clever ones a tie and the potential "workers" a boiler suit, just so they can get used to the "world of work"?

My school has a sensible attitude. It never fails to amaze me that schools wanting to drive up results do so by sending pupils HOME or putting them in ilsolation for not wearing unform rather than actually teaching them something - a solution proven to drive up results.

pointythings Mon 09-Sep-13 18:24:38

<dons extra strength absorbent pants>

Come on, motherinferior I need a good laugh grin.

Oh, sorry - I meant 'I need a GOOD LAUGH'. Because the capitals make it all so much more credible, don't they?

There is no evidence that uniforms improve standards - either in terms of behaviour or in terms of academic achievement. The research is impossible, because implementing uniform changes nearly always goes hand in hand with other measures for schools in trouble - new leadership teams, enhanced inspections, new teaching staff, support from other schools. The only way to ascertain the facts one way or another would be to conduct a randomised controlled trial, and that would be ethically very dubious because you would have to deliberately leave a group of children in a poor school.

As for comparisons with Detroit - you might as well compare apples and lobsters.

motherinferior Mon 09-Sep-13 18:31:44

Or you could just make the same other improvements but get half the kids wearing uniform and half not, I suppose.

Blazers for 18 year olds is just risible. And those horrible cheap shiny suits the poor buggers end up wearing too.

motherinferior Mon 09-Sep-13 18:33:33

I know of a few 16/17 yr old pupils who enjoy wearing their uniform and are very pleased their schools at least have a suit and tie for boys and a suit for girls. They would hate the thought of wearing anything,they like uniformity.

How very worrying. Surely the only use for uniform whatsoever is to find a sort of placebo for directing youthful rebellion so at least they stay off the fags and cider?

pointythings Mon 09-Sep-13 19:12:44

I know of a few 16/17 yr old pupils who enjoy wearing their uniform and are very pleased their schools at least have a suit and tie for boys and a suit for girls. They would hate the thought of wearing anything,they like uniformity.

Yes, I met one of those at an open evening at DD1's current school - a 17yo 6th former prattling on about how great uniform was because she didn't need to think about what to wear the next day. I'm afraid I told her quite firmly that when I was 17, I didn't have such problems making simple decisions. Heaven help us if that is the future of our country... Long may my DDs carry on wearing odd socks and having a mind of their own.

Lancelottie Mon 09-Sep-13 19:48:19

Bizarrely, one of mine comes home, shucks off his school sweatshirt and puts on an ancient blazer he bought in a charity shop. It looks rather good with an orange t-shirt and battered jeans.

annemary12 Mon 09-Sep-13 19:50:38

Thank you Expat. For the others i do believe that if the school has stricter dress standards, the behaviour of pupils across the board would improve.

Pointy things. Earlier on i made a point that it is not the 1970s or 80s regarding organising walkout"s over school uniform. i was "SUSPENDED" for refusing to wear a SKIRT when i was 16, this was 1987 things were so different then. I was the ring leader of the no "SKIRT" protest and because my parents were only intrested in Booze and Fags i was not reprimanded or punished.

I thought i was great sticking 2 fingers up at them doing has i pleased WAGGING every lesson on a Monday/ Friday coming in drunk after drinking my parents cans of Special Brew. Standing up with the rest of the 5th years going on Strike in maths throwing Eggs at the Deputy Head and eventually being thrown out before taking my O Levels.
For a good 5 years after i thought i was the "Bees" knees for my Behaviour at school. But like an ex Smoker or Drinker they change from being the Poacher to the Gamekeeper.

annemary12 Mon 09-Sep-13 20:00:04

God i hated them "SNOBBY" BAST** from the Grammar School i wanted to smash every single girl from there in the face.

I was the Girl/s who hit my DD and i am ashamed of what i was.

I believe that if i had a Stricter Family and better discipline from "that" school i could have done well at school. Oh yes they can change the name become an Academy and all kind of fancy things but it will always be"that" school.

pointythings Mon 09-Sep-13 20:11:20

OP, standing up for the right to wear trousers would have been a perfectly legitimate thing to do if you had done it very differently.

I don't think you've changed that much, really - you used to be judgemental of one side, now you're judgemental of the other. Same old, same old. And you are very naive to think that uniform would sort out the problems caused by chaotic home lives, parents drinking, doing drugs and not supporting their children's learning.

Your last line actually makes sense - yes, it will always be 'that' school if the only change made is cosmetic. Fancy names are meaningless - you need strong leadership, good buildings, excellent teachers and strong involvement from local services including police, social services and health services.

My older DD's school was on the edge of special measures when she was born and I vowed never to send her there - now it's a good school, despite having a difficult catchment with a lot of deprivation. The head who turned it round is still there. Yes, she changed the uniform to blazers last year, but she handled it perfectly, with flexibility and common sense and it was not done until the school was already firmly on a positive course. That's how you sort a school out.

WorrySighWorrySigh Mon 09-Sep-13 20:30:18

I do wonder if there has been a memo go out "Head Teacher - how to make your mark":

1. Introduce a new school uniform - ensure uniformity not just in the clothes the students wear but also the sizes - 'I'm sorry Mrs Smith but 6'7" Kevin is going to have to wear a small as we have used up our quota of XXXXL'

2. Introduce a two week timetable - this will guarantee that Disorganised Deirdre spends her entire school career taking PE kit to Pottery and cookery ingredients to History. Nobody except the Head knows whether they are on week A or B.

3. Introduce vertical tutor groups - ensures that all students learn bad habits efficiently from year 7.

annemary12 Mon 09-Sep-13 20:31:36

Pointy things. It was not trousers it was ripped Jeans and to have the right to Smoke in the classrooms. it was about destroying the teachers from the first moment of the day to the end of the day every day. Granted most of them were very "poor" and thankfully that type dont teach today. My Group/Gang had absolutely no respect for them after the 1984 "Teachers Strike" most of them resembeling a character from Grange Hill called "SCRUFFY MCGUFFY".

My DD/DS schools have very high standards of dress for the teachers and support staff. At DSs school all male teachers when in the classroom have to wear a suit and tie like the pupils. At DDs school all the Female staff must wear a trouser suit or skirt and suit and the male staff must wear jacket and tie . It is just as important in fact more important that the teachers and school staff are as smart if not smarter than the pupils.

pointythings Mon 09-Sep-13 20:50:19

Fair enough, OP - obviously that was not a sensible protest then. I'm also glad to see that your school enforces uniform standards for staff too, at least there's no hypocrisy there.

The fact remains that uniforms are a symptom, not a cause of school improvement. If my older DD's school decides to mandate business dress in 6th form when she gets there, I will be sending her to one of the top 6th form colleges in Cambridge, where I work - they have no uniform and achieve stellar results.

pointythings Mon 09-Sep-13 20:52:04

Oh, and my mother used to be a teacher in Holland. She used to teach wearing jeans and a tie-dye top and wild earrings. She had no discipline issues whatsoever because she was tough, and she got first-rate results. Respect for teachers comes from their behaviour, not from what they're wearing - or from what pupils are wearing, come to that. Most of Europe seems to understand that.

marriedinwhiteisback Mon 09-Sep-13 20:52:55

The only uniform my DS cares about is the out of school Made in Chelsea one. DD doesn't generally care but even she has had highlights on the naturally blonde long hair. Yep out of school uni - DS has the shoes, the hair, the right tshirt, the right jeans, the right jacket. DD's all skinnies, ankle boots and long graphic print knitted long tunic/dress thing. They look lpvely but non conformist they aint. Plucks up courage to tell them.

marriedinwhiteisback Mon 09-Sep-13 20:58:36

Oh the two week time table. Yes we don't miss that from the top 100 comp. Made reinforcing homework a total joke that did. And dd spent two years with 100cwt of books on her back lest she forget one for the next class and be bollocked by a teacher pretending to be a fishwife. Whoever thought that one up should be nowhere near a school.

pointythings Mon 09-Sep-13 21:03:01

Two week timetables? confused I didn't even know such things existed, for which I am truly thankful...

marriedinwhiteisback Mon 09-Sep-13 21:25:38

Taking the "p" *pointy*? I'm hopeless at working out this stuff

annemary12 Mon 09-Sep-13 21:32:56

Marriedin white. Baring in mind there are 164 Grammar Schools in the country . Do you mean in the top 264 State schools since 95 % of Grammar Schools will be higher up than a top 100 comp.

pointythings Mon 09-Sep-13 21:48:38

married, no, not taking the p***, genuinely shocked that such a thing as a 2-week timetable could exist. I live a very sheltered life educationally. You have my absolute and unqualified sympathy.

marriedinwhiteisback Mon 09-Sep-13 21:48:41

Yes. An exceptionally academic comp - just with a ratjer vulgar intake producing children I wouldn't like mine to emulate. My old grammar isn't up there btw.

WorrySighWorrySigh Mon 09-Sep-13 22:20:59

I remembered this link from a previous thread about school uniform:

http://www.suttontrust.com/news/news/smaller-classes-uniforms-and-primary-homework-among/

Essentially the research found that there was no evidence that school uniform improved academic performance.

I think we have been brainwashed in Britain to see strict school uniform as a cipher for a good school. It has become a distraction for some Heads. They waste time and effort on enforcing impractical uniform rules rather than focusing on managing the school.

WorrySighWorrySigh Mon 09-Sep-13 22:21:32
WorrySighWorrySigh Mon 09-Sep-13 22:24:14

the two week timetable seems to be quite the thing where I am. DCs' (unutterably crap) school has had it for a couple of years now. I really struggle to see what the point of it is.

nooka Tue 10-Sep-13 04:31:32

It's funny really, one of the few rules at my children's school is that hey are not allowed to wear anything that could be construed as showing gang membership. In some areas of the UK the school uniform is used in exactly the same way, to mark out different sides in a conflict situation.

We had a couple of schools that got into a bad place where I used to live, and organised to meet up en mass for a big fight. When they arrived the place was swarming with police who sorted things out very fast indeed.

both schools had 'smart' uniforms (and were as I recall in special measures)

marriedinwhiteisback Tue 10-Sep-13 07:48:59

Actually 10-20% were horrid OP - most girls were lovely. The school however did nothing to deal with the behaviour of a small minority although there was a strict uniform both heavily policed and very expensive. So, it boiled down to priorities: assault and disruption were OK; a rolled up skirt wasn't.

I'm sorry you had a rough time OP but it wasn't just that schools fault? I'm glad you are in a better place and your dc have a good, loving home and hope for their futures. But knowing what awful lives some of those DC have, doesn't it make you want to get involved with initiatives to make it better. My DH always had a grudge because his parents wouldn't pay for him to learn an instrument - that's something he did something about at the DC's primary. I find it hard to reconcile how much you seem to detest those whom you know are fighting against chaos and deprivation when you know what they go home to face and the bravado they adopt. It makes me feel very sad OP.

IloveJudgeJudy Tue 10-Sep-13 08:48:34

I can understand the school wanting pupils to abide by the school uniform code. What I cannot understand is why the skirts and trousers have to have a logo. That's ridiculous and adds so much cost to things you can get anywhere for as much/little money as you want to spend. Black shoes, not trainers, white shirts, ties, blazer, black/grey skirt/trousers and blazer and you're sorted. As soon as you add logos to stuff it massively ups the cost.

At the DC's school, they've just changed the uniform (last year, actually). Those who have the old uniform are allowed to wear it for as long as it still fits, but if they buy anything new, then they have to buy stuff in the new colours.

expatdetroiter Tue 10-Sep-13 09:28:25

To me its no coincendence that the best behaved schools where i live are the Grammar schools.That is because they have the highest Academic standards and dress standards. You always know which schools have been let out because the standard of behaviour is vastly different between"High schools" and "Grammar Schools".

BoffinMum Tue 10-Sep-13 09:38:22

Expat, it has more to do with the social selection of their intake, statistically speaking, but I am sure a lot of people think it's because of putting a lot of polyester on kids and making them say 'Sir' all the time.

BoffinMum Tue 10-Sep-13 09:41:06

FWIW my school had a rigidly implemented, specially woven Harris Tweed uniform that would probably cost a four figure sum these days, yet in many ways we could be quite feral when the mood took us.

expatdetroiter Tue 10-Sep-13 09:47:36

You also know what time it is The high schools let them out at barely 3 o clock the Grammar Schools Closer to 4 o clock. The behaviour on the buses at 3 o clock is appalling with their Swearing rudeness and general lack of respect for their school or themselves.

I was taught by family that you become like your surrondings and the expectations of the people around you, "Uniforms" are one way to show that you are prepared to accept standards and "ACHIEVE FOR THE BLAZER" your best. Sadly i see some of the High School pupils causing mayhem. Yes i have seen bad behaviour from the Grammar School Pupils, but when you tell him they will be reported the behaviour improves . The High School pupils just carry on "WHAT YOU GONNA DO" C**.

Wallison Tue 10-Sep-13 10:04:46

Uniforms just show that you are prepared to wear a uniform.

Lancelottie Tue 10-Sep-13 10:57:23

JudgeJudy -- DS's school phased in new uniform on the same grounds.

DS, who preferred the old one, stubbornly wore his (bright yellow) yr 7 polo shirts intermittently right up to yr 11 instead of the new white ones, on the grounds that they still fitted.

TheUglyFuckling Tue 10-Sep-13 11:18:30

Schools should either have uniform and strictly enforce it. Or don't have it at all.

Otherwise you end up with a huge shitty grey area where no one really knows where they stand, and pupils will abuse the unifrom which can lead to all sorts of hassle. And some teachers are strict about it and some aren't. And some pupils fuck about trying to 'challenge' the system in order to gain some kudos. It's a mess.

hellymelly Tue 10-Sep-13 11:28:59

I hate uniform, particularly in primary school. I think it is a complete waste of money and generally makes young people look hideous . Attractive uniforms in natural fibres are as rare as hens teeth. A few public schools have decent uniforms and that in itself is a reason I am against them. The proles are left with teflon coated polyester and maroon acrylic jumpers.

hellymelly Tue 10-Sep-13 11:30:16

Boffinmum-I had a Harris tweed uniform too- I loved it, still have it upstairs!

daftdame Tue 10-Sep-13 11:32:11

The Ugly Fuckling Do you agree with the example given, the type of 'enforcement' of Leslie Ellis has practised?

How would you deal with extenuating circumstances?

daftdame Tue 10-Sep-13 11:35:07

Also, as I said on another thread,

There will always be some parents who do not support the school even though the school are being reasonable...

The school might even have to give these pupils some leeway if their parents are sending mixed messages and not showing how to behave appropriately. Isolation instead of sending home for example. Otherwise how will they learn? If you give a disproportionate punishment it would only reinforce their parent's standpoint i.e. the school is being unreasonable.

ZutAlorsDidier Tue 10-Sep-13 11:38:36

At school, I was passionately grateful for the existence of school uniform. however I, and the situation I was in, were dysfunctional. (By adult standards - I, and the situation I was in, are not unusual for teenagers) I needed it - lord knows I needed it - but it was not a great situation. I am grateful every day for not being a teenager. Teenagers are at constant risk of real violence. It is horrific. why did I have children [sob]

WorrySighWorrySigh Tue 10-Sep-13 13:16:04

'achieve for the blazer' is in my opinion utter drivel

What sane person is going to want to achieve for a garment which represents in my DCs case a school which occupies a slot in the bottom 20 schools in England?

Any sort of punishment against a student for not owning a garment is spineless bullying by the head.

motherinferior Tue 10-Sep-13 14:01:20

I really, really hope my lovely daughters' achievement aspirations extend beyond some repulsive polyester garment.

Mindless school loyalty is really quite disturbing in any case. My children are proud of their schools but that is because the school has justified it, not imposed it.

Quenelle Tue 10-Sep-13 14:06:37

I'm sitting at my terribly respectable desk job wearing black jeans, biker boots and a long tshirt. By the time my four year old son goes to work ties will be obsolete in most workplaces, but he still has to wear a shirt and tie when he starts Reception next week. It's just unnecessary.

Why did Lesley Ellis devise a school uniform so specific that it is hostage to the shortages created by limited supply? So the school can charge whatever it likes for it I suppose... And to punish the children because of her own mistakes was unforgivable. I would be looking for another school pronto if that happened to DS.

The only fair, enforceable uniform is this colour shirt, this colour jumper and this colour skirt or trousers. If a school absolutely has to ram the exclusive point home with logos on everything they should provide sew-on badges.

Oh, and my sister's abiding memory of the 'standards of the 70s' was being made to stand on a chair in front of the class, then wetting herself because the teacher refused her requests to go to the toilet. I think my sister's old teacher would have got on well with Lesley Ellis.

grumpyoldbat Tue 10-Sep-13 14:14:19

I agree with worry. A school should have some sort of uniform but it should be affordable for all. Punishment should be proportional and children should never be punished for any inadequacies their parents may have.

Discipline shouldn't focus on which brand of (otherwise reasonable) trousers the parents have bought at the expense of dealing with the really important things like stopping bullying, ensuring school work is done etc. It's a diversion and children aren't going to respect any of the rules if so much focus is placed on rules that are impossible for the children to meet and quite frankly ridiculous.

Success and improvement will be achieved by showing the children what they can achieve, enforcing reasonable and workable rules, praising effort and achievement while offering targeted support in areas where there are difficulties.

Children from difficult home lives are in even more need of support. They should not be punished for it. Life will be difficult enough without school effectively punishing you for it. OP, you said your parents didn't care. Ask yourself this, if your school had introduced a uniform that was so expensive that your parents couldn't or wouldn't buy it, if the school had then punished you and humiliated you in front of your class mates would you have suddenly buckled down, worked hard, obeyed all other rules and treated everyone with respect or would you have felt even more resentful for being punished for something outwith your control, seen even less point in trying hard ( because your parents don't care and you'll be punished for that anyway, would you have found it even harder to visualise a way to improve your life.

morethanpotatoprints Tue 10-Sep-13 14:14:38

"what hope of they got"?

perhaps they can write properly, even if they don't have the correct uniform.
So its ok to send kids home with incorrect uniform, but they can't have time off for holiday.
Either education is important or not.
6th formers are college students, not at school anymore and their education is Post Compulsory, hence the relaxation in uniform.
I don't think many would opt for 6th form and go to the local college if they were going to be treated like children grin

annemary12 Tue 10-Sep-13 14:20:34

The reason i hated the Girls from the Grammar School was because i so desperately wanted to "Wear that Uniform". Because i did not pass my 11+ i became angry and menace though frustation. Having to wear the "Short" Skirt a scruffy jumper with the mismosh of colours school tie. The Secondary Modern School with its dreadful uniform caused the problems.

My mum and dad were only intrested in drinking "SPECIAL BREW" and Smoking fags. Then one day in 1987 mum decides she as had enough of Dad and that she wanted a life of her own. Unbeknown to me, Mother was very bright being the only girl from her Primary school to pass the County Scholarship, to the Girls Grammar. But you know the story of unable to go, because parents could not afford uniform. So she decides to start studying and eventually ends up with a Degree in English and in 1992 takes up teaching at the age of 49 retiring in 2008 to study for her Masters in English Literature. the Comprehensive school still use her part time for the 6th form.

My sister who is 6 years younger than me benefited from my mother"s
"EPIPHANY" and from mother being very strict passed her 11+ to the same Grammar that mum was not able to attend. My mother was in tears of joy seeing her DD2 in her Grammar School uniform. My sister went on to work for "Price Coppers Waterhouse" as an analyst.

The most amazing thing is i am now the "CHAIR" of the parents Association of my Sisters/Daughters Grammar School. When DC are with Grandma they always say how strict and demanding about their standards in Education and Manners she is. My Mum is mortified how she was when i was growing up and how she messed up my Education and upbringing. I threaten her i will tell the DC about the "SPECIAL BREW" years.

annemary12 Tue 10-Sep-13 14:20:44

The reason i hated the Girls from the Grammar School was because i so desperately wanted to "Wear that Uniform". Because i did not pass my 11+ i became angry and menace though frustation. Having to wear the "Short" Skirt a scruffy jumper with the mismosh of colours school tie. The Secondary Modern School with its dreadful uniform caused the problems.

My mum and dad were only intrested in drinking "SPECIAL BREW" and Smoking fags. Then one day in 1987 mum decides she as had enough of Dad and that she wanted a life of her own. Unbeknown to me, Mother was very bright being the only girl from her Primary school to pass the County Scholarship, to the Girls Grammar. But you know the story of unable to go, because parents could not afford uniform. So she decides to start studying and eventually ends up with a Degree in English and in 1992 takes up teaching at the age of 49 retiring in 2008 to study for her Masters in English Literature. the Comprehensive school still use her part time for the 6th form.

My sister who is 6 years younger than me benefited from my mother"s
"EPIPHANY" and from mother being very strict passed her 11+ to the same Grammar that mum was not able to attend. My mother was in tears of joy seeing her DD2 in her Grammar School uniform. My sister went on to work for "Price Coppers Waterhouse" as an analyst.

The most amazing thing is i am now the "CHAIR" of the parents Association of my Sisters/Daughters Grammar School. When DC are with Grandma they always say how strict and demanding about their standards in Education and Manners she is. My Mum is mortified how she was when i was growing up and how she messed up my Education and upbringing. I threaten her i will tell the DC about the "SPECIAL BREW" years.

annemary12 Tue 10-Sep-13 14:29:41

Morethan. You can see that it was a typing mistake. That should have said "WHAT HOPE HAVE THEY GOT".

grumpyoldbat Tue 10-Sep-13 14:45:43

anne you've kind of helped prove my point. Your mum missed out on her early education because of the price of the uniform. Do you really think this is what shoul be encouraged? A child's right to education being determined by their parents abilty to buy the uniform. Increase the cost of the uniform in more and more schools and the number of children losing out grows. What happens when all of the schools in your area devise a uniform costing hundreds.

I'm really sorry your childhood was so difficult but you seem to be wrongly focusing on the uniform being the issue. It may be difficult to see from where you are but the uniform is not the issue.

My school I forced the uniform rules but the uniform wasn't expensive and wasn't restricted to one supplier. Colour, skirt length, hair style (no unnatural colours) were specified, no denim allowed etc. There were different punishments depending on the type and frequency of the infraction. However patents could shop around, they could use hand me downs and charity shop finds to enable them to afford it. I realise I'm not someone to aspire to but former pupils from my school include senior naval and army officers, senior police officers, consultant surgeons, GPs, successful business owners and many other successful careers

needasilverlining Tue 10-Sep-13 14:49:01

OP for the love of god would you stop using random capitals and speech marks. It makes no sense whatsoever and it's like being shouted at all the time.

Sorry, but I think it's also making your posts much easier to dismiss. They don't look v measured iyswim.

annemary12 Tue 10-Sep-13 15:57:05

Why are some people being rude and dismissive of me and my opinions?

Why are some people calling me names?

I am not "SHOUTING" at anybody.

I thought that if you have nothing nice to say about someone you should not say anything?

I always look for the positive in people and what they can achieve.

Regarding me being dismissive of "that" school i have tried to get ties going with the school asking them to join with us in a school production. They dont want to know, the head of "our" school has offered
yr12/y13 A level maths pupils to help the numeracy standards of their struggling yr7/8 pupils, they dont want to know. We have offered them help and friendship on many occasions and every time they are not intrested.

motherinferior Tue 10-Sep-13 16:08:05

No, you're actually not being remotely nice about 'that' school.

SlowlorisIncognito Tue 10-Sep-13 16:25:05

annemary using CAPSLOCK is considered shouting on the internet.

In my local area it was the boys grammar that had a reputation for having a drugs problem, as they were the ones who could afford to buy it. They wore blazers and ties, and we wore sweatshirts and polo shirts.

MinesAPintOfTea Tue 10-Sep-13 16:32:12

You asked if you were being unreasonable. You have been told you are.

And maybe the school thinks their trained teachers (yes even at "that school") are better than schoolchildren who have never struggled with basic concepts of maths at teaching children with numeracy problems. And that they don't want an act of charity.

grumpyoldbat Tue 10-Sep-13 16:37:26

I have not called you names, and nothing I've said has been with the intention of being rude towards you or anyone else.

I've just been expressing my strongly held opinion that having a uniform that is so expensive that parents can't or won't buy it then punishing children for it wouldn't fix the issues you describe but in fact may make things worse.

I'm not dismissing your concerns I just happen to disagree on how to address them.

needasilverlining Tue 10-Sep-13 16:46:29

I didn't call you names either, just pointed out that your position doesn't seem very logical but the way you write (random meaningless speech marks and capitals) makes your posts look ranty and illogical which really isn't helping.

annemary12 Tue 10-Sep-13 16:49:39

Thankyou grumpy/mines. Ok i accept the fact that our pupils have never struggled with Ks2/3 maths. It does not mean they cant be of any assistance in conjunction with teachers though. Why have they not taken up our offer of a joint school production. Why will they not play us at sport?

motherinferior Tue 10-Sep-13 16:53:00

Perhaps they don't want to? Why should they do this just because you've so kindly offered? My daughter's school has its own school productions planned out. Ditto sports matches.

needasilverlining Tue 10-Sep-13 16:55:24

Tbh, even if the offer was made with the best of intentions, I'd feel deeply patronised as a head to be offered pupils to help my teachers. I think I'd decide I didn't want my students being someone's charity outreach project.

motherinferior Tue 10-Sep-13 17:03:47

God yes, so would I.

annemary12 Tue 10-Sep-13 19:12:23

I know of grammar schools in other areas that have great relationships with the non selective schools in their areas.

Why are they not prepared to have a mutually beneficial relationship with us.

Why will they not let us put on extenstion classes for their brightest pupils and give them valuable knowledge in applying for university.

Why do they accuse us of hoovering up their brightest 6th form pupils.
If they had proper 6th form teaching that enabled their brightest pupils to access higher education they would retain more students.

Why do they always say we dont understand the social economic problems they encounter and we have no idea how to motivate disenfranchised pupils with limited advantages.

These are the reasons i say "that" school they dont want to change or improve for their pupils. They want it to stay the way it is now for ever.

MinesAPintOfTea Tue 10-Sep-13 19:15:06

Yes but you've admitted there's decades of entrenched rivalry between the schools, maybe the head is worried about that. Maybe they feel patronised and don't like being looked down at.

Or maybe they have improved since your time and its just a tiny minority of trouble-makers now. As you're involved in the grammar not the comp would you know?

needasilverlining Tue 10-Sep-13 19:17:08

Jesus. I was about to post an explanation but I honestly don't think I have the strength and you won't listen anyway.

Why don't you just buy them some nice blazers from your generous grammar school funding? Apparently that will solve all those pesky socio-economic problems.

annemary12 Tue 10-Sep-13 19:33:46

Needa silver lining. I will always listen to other peoples views and opinions.
I know its more about expectations and positive experiences than shiny school blazers. Social economic problems do not mean that those pupils cannot achieve. We have a few pupils in difficult economic situations.
Granted not as many as "that" school but the 17 pupils that qualify for pupil premium will be expected to access higher education when the leave us.

annemary12 Tue 10-Sep-13 19:35:07

When they leave us

MinesAPintOfTea Tue 10-Sep-13 19:53:08

So you have 17 pupils on PP, is that 2% of the while school? Plus if their parents were organised enough to get them through the 11+ then they probably are near the top of organised parents.

You do take the cream and the brightest, that's how grammars do so well but that means you don't end up with nearly so many children affected by social problems.

And if your school aggregates them, would someone from "the grammar" not risk alienating more children than it inspires?

needasilverlining Tue 10-Sep-13 20:10:35

If you really listen, then listen to this:

Why does 'that' school say those things? Maybe because they're true. Maybe someone with the intelligence and drive to become head of a challenging school knows more about what suits their school than someone whose educational qualification is 'having a child at grammar school'.

Maybe they pick up that you think of them as 'that school' and don't want the Lady Muck attitude near their kids.

Maybe they know that prolonged exposure to privileged kids (and believe me, even nice children can be horrifically snobby if you hadn't noticed or allowed yourself to believe it) would be counter-productive.

Maybe they've got a point about creaming off bright pupils (no maybe here, BTW; why do you think the results are so good? It's not all down to teaching. Or smart uniform).

Or, you know, maybe all those teachers and heads actually don't give a shit about the kids and don't know as much as you do and want them to have shit lives. I know which I think is more likely.

My son's school achieves wonders with the overwhelmingly deprived demographic that is the majority of its intake. It does so in a very different way to the naice tiny middle class school down the road. If the perfectly pleasant MC mummies started suggesting that they put on (read: organise and run) joint events with us and send their clever kids to help our poor teachers, I'd want to tell them to fuck off because they would be being massively patronising and also WOULDN'T KNOW WHAT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT.

marriedinwhiteisback Tue 10-Sep-13 20:15:55

OP I'm still in touch with a couple of the mums at dd's school because they are lovely ladies and dd made friends with their lovely daughters. They were on pupil premium. In both cases because they were left in the lurch but in spite of periods in B&B moved heaven and earth for their children. They didn't have money but they had love and enthusiasm and intellect in spades.

If you are a governor and if you want to recover the more I read the more I think you need help and I mean that. Kindly and with concern.

12thDoctorsCompanion Tue 10-Sep-13 20:26:49

Too many posts here so if someones already said this, apologies!

basic white shirt/skirt/trousers are cheap in most supermarkets, so no excuses that parents cant afford them.

most schools have a 'seconds' shop so you can buy blazers/bags etc at a lower price.

brand new blazers with logo are ridiculously priced though.

no other countries dont have uniforms but in this country its all about bling and designer and uniform stops all the fashion competition where some people cant afford the latest bling.

and uniform safer when there are trips out as less likely to lose a person! and smarter if worn correctly.

Therealamandaclarke Tue 10-Sep-13 20:29:38

I like uniform for school because it's bait of a leveller and it can look tidy.
But I am quite shocked at the cost of many uniforms.
Being so specific about dress codes for a state school, having to buy a particular skirt or blazer (why do girls have to wear a fucking tie and blazer? Do all the decision makers on this issue have an unhealthy "st trinians" obsession?) is asking for trouble IMHO.
I think smartness and "levelling" can be achieved with rules about colour and length of skirt/ trousers and shirt/ jacket. School identity can be demonstrated with their crest on an embroidered badge or similar. Or a school scarf. Make it affordable and less insane and ppl would (IMHO) be more likely to comply.
But that wouldn't suit the zealots.
I sometimes think schools are on a mission to encourage disaffe tion with authority rather than respect for it.

Wallison Tue 10-Sep-13 20:34:16

Just because someone's parents are rich doesn't mean they're going to be good teachers. Or indeed that they're clever.

Oh yes, and everything that needasilverlining said. You seem to think that getting schoolboys to act like Lady Bountiful will solve all of the very real problems that pupils from deprived socio-economic backgrounds will face, despite knowing nothing about them. You come across, in short, as deluded.

pointythings Tue 10-Sep-13 20:45:36

Schoolboys acting like Lady Bountiful would make for great panto though... And would be about all it's good for.

Grammar schools do cream off the brightest and so leave comprehensives with a larger proportion of the disaffected per class to deal with - that's just how it is.

detroitexpat your posts just describe more of the worst school tribalism and judgemental attitude that make for a divided society. I just love the way you tar all non private school pupils with the same brush - not.

Therealamandaclarke Tue 10-Sep-13 20:50:35

OP do you genuinely believe that a smarter uniform would have alleviated the bitterness and rage you felt in relation to "failing" your 11+ or your parents' issues?
Have I missed something here?

LifeHuh Tue 10-Sep-13 21:27:55

Bah. Not sure I'd want nice grammar school girls coming into my ds's non selective to help with maths. And sharing a school play? Well, maybe you mean well, but it reads like Lady Bountiful helping the huddled masses. My Ds is a normal, kind polite child as are his friends. He is not at a grammar school because he is not academic. I realise your posts refer to the particular school you dislike but the whole grammar= smart + lovely High school= low achieving and rough tone is beginning to get on my nerves ...
By the way, if you are in Kent do name, or at least give us a clue- I'm desperate to know where thee schools are...

Therealamandaclarke Tue 10-Sep-13 21:59:54

Being academic or bright is no longer enough to get into grammar schools anyway. Hot housing is needed.
Ime

raisah Wed 11-Sep-13 03:19:29

The girls at the sixth form down the road dress like extras from spearmint rhino even with their uniform on. It's all padded bras, one size small jumpers, lacy tights and bottom skimming regulation skirts with the obligatory false eyelashes & fake tan. They all look the same and they all look awful.

WorrySighWorrySigh Wed 11-Sep-13 07:30:08

Interestingly, my DD (a sixth former herself), estimates that the skimpy dressing is a privilege of the wealthy. The students from poorer backgrounds seem to dress far more sensibly.

School uniform doesnt teach students to dress for work. It teaches them to dress thoughlessly. It teaches them to tick boxes in terms of dressing - shirt: check; tie: check; blazer: check. It doesnt seem to matter that these garments are the wrong size and inadequately laundered.

No wonder Britain is the scruffy man of Europe!

ZutAlorsDidier Wed 11-Sep-13 09:19:01

I think it is a mistake to draw too close analogies with adults in some cases, including (sadly) school uniform. Secondary school is, for most, a period during which children become young adults. We do not treat children like adults. Children who are nearly adults need to learn to behave like adults - there is a suitable time for them to do things like learn to drive, learn to budget, learn to cook and meal plan, etc - all things we do for our children when they are too young because it would be dangerous or neglectful to let them alone to do all this for themselves. It is a continuum, it is a tricky thing to know what is the right level of trust, autonomy, independence, and when.

I think school uniform is an attempt to manage the unfortunate truth that teenagers are likely to dress terribly and likely to exercise various forms of social cruelty around clothes. I know we expect adults not to do either but teenagers are not adults. And in so many other ways, we acknowledge this and manage it. If a poster wrote "my 12 year old dc wants to go to an all night party where there will be booze and shagging" a vast majority of posters would say "don't let him / her - too young". It would be the odd lone voice who would say "you could not stop a 21 year old from going out where they wanted, why do you impose your authority on a 12-year old?" - if even a lone voice said that. that is because everyone knows 12 year olds have to be treated differently from 21 year olds, and it is a stupid analogy. I think something similar applies with school uniform

daftdame Wed 11-Sep-13 09:31:18

ZutAlors I understand what you are saying. Teenagers can be very cruel regarding clothes their peers wear. However I think some of these 'zero tolerance' policies are equally cruel.

If uniform is a policy to tackle the issue of teenagers not understanding how to dress appropriately, punishing them for an infraction, when they don't understand why, is futile. It would be like punishing a baby for demanding attention. Some of the punishments, some schools give, such as sending home, IMO are disproportionate. If the parents don't or can't support the (too exacting) uniform policy either then the school is just going to reinforce the view that they, the school, are harsh, unfair and unreasonable.

Interesting thread, thought I'd add my tuppenceworth. I like school uniform, but my DD has ended up at a non-uniform school. Only rules: no spaghetti straps, no bare midriffs, no high heels. So according to the OP results will suffer right, because of lack of discipline.

I wont give the precise figures as I dont want to out myself, but for example, over 50% of the year who just took GCSEs got all A*s.

Uniform per se has no impact on results, as someone showed upthread. It may, as part of a focus on discipline and leadership, be part of a series of actions which also help raise results. But we should not judge children by this.

marriedinwhiteisback Wed 11-Sep-13 20:45:38

Royal blue, plaid skirt (pleated) all trimmed in daffodil yellow. Thank you Lord for business suits in 6th form smile. Fab school, honestly. Uniform's a bit crap though - they like it when they're little but dd said tonight "I'll be really glad to get rid of this freaking pile of SH one T next year. Ahem 16k a year and language like that!!

C'mon OP - chill a bit. See the other side of the argument.

jonesclaire Wed 11-Sep-13 22:47:46

First of all i have named changed for this, i am a regular poster but i want to stand up for the op who is a close friend of mine. She has been locked out of her account and cannot respond.

I would like to make a few valid points about the op.

1. The op has come across as a very judgemental and snobby person who is a bit neurotic. These two perceptions about op could not be further from the truth. She is a very caring person and she does care for the pupils of the non selective school that my Ds goes to.

2. Op had a very difficult upbringing and does feel regret about her education. She does believe that her mum let her badly down with discipline. Op is the best chair of the parents association my DDs school as ever had, a more passionate person about her role you could not meet.

3. Having a bright Ds at the school the op calls "that" school i can assure you that the points she makes are very valid. When my Ds failed is 11+ we decided to give the non selective school a chance rather than going independent. This was after a brilliant speech from the head, he gave the impression that Ds would get the education that was correct for him. I also won a grammar school place on appeal for Ds, yet i was prepared to give the non selective school a chance. The sad truth is despite achieving a grading of good at its last inspection, it is not able to academically push my Ds. i have given the school to the end of autumn term to improve or i will pull my son out. My son is yr 8 so i have given the school 1 year and it is time for them to show me,they can
educate Ds.

you may not like what i have said and think the op is still "VILE". I just wanted to at least put some of the reasons for the ops views. They may be extreme but are not meant to be vindictive.

Wallison Wed 11-Sep-13 22:51:57

hmm

So, you had the option of going independent, and then you won a place at the grammar school, but turned that down?

This thread is weird. hmm

ravenAK Wed 11-Sep-13 23:28:49

Mine are argyle. Very warm & fluffy <wiggles toes>.

Wallison Wed 11-Sep-13 23:31:26

I think I've slipped into a parallel universe.

nooka Thu 12-Sep-13 01:17:04

Sounds as if 'that' school can't be as terrible as the OP makes out anyway, otherwise the OP's friend would surely have jumped at the chance of going elsewhere to avoid being a 'SCALLY' as the OP's dd so charmingly put it.

ZutAlors neither of my secondary school age children dress 'terribly' and nether do the vast majority of their school mates. I on the other hand looked terrible in my school uniform because it was badly made and fitted. When I had the chance to wear my own clothes I didn't have much of an idea as to what suited me and probably did wear some weird and wonderful combos, but that's because I had to wear the uniform the rest of the time. When you have the freedom to wear what you like all the time I have found much less of a big deal.

needasilverlining Thu 12-Sep-13 08:18:24

I don't believe anyone said the OP was a bad person, just that she obviously had massive issues around the subject that made her a tad illogical. And her solutions were very weird and simplistic.

I assume she was banned for sock puppetry, so she's only herself to blame for that.

Stretching the very brightest pupils is the one thing my ds's school isn't amazing at, maybe the result of having so many pupils starting from not even speaking English?

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