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to listen to Jamie Oliver on Radio 4 and want to throw things...........

(1000 Posts)
catinabox Mon 02-Sep-13 10:06:40

He's not really doing himself any favours is he?

hiddenhome Mon 02-Sep-13 10:08:19

What did he say?

LumpySpace Mon 02-Sep-13 10:11:44

What go on?

Crowler Mon 02-Sep-13 10:12:07

More on Jamie Oliver. Boy, he really rankles the MN'ers doesn't he?

What indeed did he say?

catinabox Mon 02-Sep-13 10:18:37

Going on about people in poverty wearing designer clothes and having electronic gadgets.....

and he has JUST said something along the lines of ' it hasn't been easy for me the last few years, i know people think i'm rich'

He hasn't got a blimming clue about poverty..he shouldn't pretend he has...

Crowler Mon 02-Sep-13 10:21:21

He ought to hire someone poor & downtrodden to deliver his message without impunity.

Crowler Mon 02-Sep-13 10:21:51

With impunity.

toomanycourgettes Mon 02-Sep-13 10:22:17

I'm listening and agreeing with 98% of what he is saying. We need to stop making excuses for some people's laziness and attitudes. And before anyone kicks off, yes, we need to make sure wealthy people and big corporations pay their share.

Nancy66 Mon 02-Sep-13 10:25:43

I think he is absolutely right about the people who seem to have convinced themselves that it's cheaper to eat takeaways than it is to make something healthy at home.

LRDMaguliYaPomochTebeSRaboti Mon 02-Sep-13 10:25:46

He doesn't help himself.

He is rich.

He may have all sorts of difficulties too, but money isn't one of them. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

Crowler Mon 02-Sep-13 10:26:18

I'm listening and agreeing with 98% of what he is saying. We need to stop making excuses for some people's laziness and attitudes. And before anyone kicks off, yes, we need to make sure wealthy people and big corporations pay their share.

Yes. There's a lot of people down on corporate tax avoidance, bank bailouts, etc (I agree) without recognizing this Britain is in a mess not only for this reason but also for a host of cultural issues.

sparklingsea Mon 02-Sep-13 10:26:51

I am listening to him now, he isn't just talking about people in poverty wearing designer cloths and having electronic gadgets, I think he is talking a lot of sense and sick of the bashing he gets.

Lottapianos Mon 02-Sep-13 10:27:52

I can see both sides with all the anger he has caused over the last week or so. I understand that chips etc are a cheap, filling, warming way of getting food into your children. I understand that 'massive TVs' are actually quite standard now and hardly count as luxury goods anymore.

On the other hand.....

'We need to stop making excuses for some people's laziness and attitudes'

Completely agree with this.

Someone has to start telling the truth about the state of many children's diets in this country. I work with young children and I regularly see children who are either seriously overweight, or desperately unhealthy looking. Virtually every child I see in a buggy is eating crisps or high-fat snacks of some sort. This is a huge issue, seriously frightening, and some has to start telling some hard truths about it. I know JO can be very annoying and doesn't always do himself a lot of favours with how he phrases things, but I do admire him for sticking his head above the parapet on this issue.

WantedGSOH Mon 02-Sep-13 10:29:11

I'm afraid I think there's huge chippiness about success on mumsnet which I don't understand.

I understabd that Jamie Oliver thinks:

Schools should feed children better & more healthily.
Schools should educate children about food.
It's possible to eat well with less money, and should be a priority.
It's possible to cook from fresh without it taking hours.
Some British teenagers have a sense of entitlement, & that they need to understand that success follows hard work.
If people want to spend lots of money on food that's up to them.

Those things seem pretty straightforward & good to me.

I'm confused about why people are so angry with Jamie. He has made money - so what? He's also enabled others to earn money, pay tax etc.

catinabox Mon 02-Sep-13 10:31:12

tommy i agree with what he says about work ethic etc.

But i really struggle with his attitude towards the choices people in poverty are making.

catinabox Mon 02-Sep-13 10:36:10

I'm not angry with Jamie Oliver making money. He has done some great stuff, i just think that starting on the...

'they are wearing designer clothes/having plasma screen t.v's' but don't know how to cook is a really ropey argument to wheel out. It is also ill informed.

Food poverty is much more complex than those simple choices and the organisations he associates with (big supermarkets) (well one anyway!) are part of the problem.

LRDMaguliYaPomochTebeSRaboti Mon 02-Sep-13 10:42:15

wanted - I'm not chippy about him making money.

There are a fair few posters on MN I can think of who're clearly pretty rich too, but manage to make you feel inspired, and also make it clear they know that they are well off (pagwatch springs to mind). JO gets me down because he comes across as if he doesn't actually realize how much richer he is than most people. The webchat thread where it transpired that his idea of a meal 'budget' was an amount most people thought was generous was pretty telling.

If he were an ordinary bloke on the street, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, and I'm sure he thinks he's just stating his mind. But he has a platform, like it or not, so I think he should take more responsibility.

Yakky Mon 02-Sep-13 10:56:42

I listened to him too and I'm sort of 50/50.
It's great telling people how cooking from scratch is cheaper and healthier, but if the DCs refuse to eat your healthy meals, then it just gets thrown away.
I am making a Shep Pie today from scratch. I know that my lot will pull faces, push it round the plate then leave the majority of it.
So I will end up wasting money when I could have made burger and chips and watched them scoff the lot.

limitedperiodonly Mon 02-Sep-13 11:00:05

We need to stop making excuses for some people's laziness and attitudes

Don't fret pet. There's no shortage of people eager to condemn the idle and feckless.

WantedGSOH Mon 02-Sep-13 11:09:14

Limited... Those people may feel that they are entitled to condemn the idle & feckless because it is only possible to be idle & feckless at somebody else's expense - unless you have pots of cash of course! <dreams>

I understand that JO is making his point simply & of course I totally get that supermarkets are pretty cynical & ruthless about manipulating the markets to make as much money as possible, I'm married to a farmer so have a healthy dislike for certain supermarkets!

However I do think his points are sensible & I don't think the fact that he has himself been successful makes them less so.

encyclogirl Mon 02-Sep-13 11:11:34

What happened to the webchat? Is it still here? I'd like to have a read of it.

I'm a bit torn on the this issue. Of course there is value in learning to cook from scratch for anyone struggling with a food budget, but why does it always have to come with a side order of Plasma screens and iphones?

LRDMaguliYaPomochTebeSRaboti Mon 02-Sep-13 11:11:58

Are these the idle and feckless who work for minimum wage? Those are usually the idle and feckless people target, the ones who take all our benefits and spend them on crap like bringing up children and paying their rent.

WantedGSOH Mon 02-Sep-13 11:18:40

confused

Idle & feckless people are idle & feckless people...

People who work hard are people who work hard...

VenusRising Mon 02-Sep-13 11:21:53

I agree with Jamie, but I also think that it's difficult to feed children fresh, healthy food when everyone's rushed for time.

We cook a lot of fish as it's so quick, and have never had a take away!
However, I chose to work pt so I can spend some time looking after meal plans, shopping and cooking healthily. That's my choice and my salary is half because of it. It works at the moment, but I miss the money!

This weekend I cooked three days dinners, and we'll have steamed vegetables with omelettes and then salmon on the other two nights, my DH does those, as I'm out at uni doing a professional development course.

It does take a bit of planning, and that is difficult if you're not sleeping well, and have a long commute, are a lone parent working ft, have kids with multiple food allergies / sensitivities etc.

limitedperiodonly Mon 02-Sep-13 11:22:43

However I do think his points are sensible & I don't think the fact that he has himself been successful makes them less so.

I have no problem with Jamie Oliver's wealth. My problem is with his political and social views and the wearying regularity with which he trots them out for an eager audience whenever he has something to flog.

LRDMaguliYaPomochTebeSRaboti Mon 02-Sep-13 11:24:20

wanted - sorry, my point was meant to be, an awful lot of people who are going to feel targeted by this sort of stuff aren't people who don't work at all, but people who do, and still struggle for money. It's always the way when you start deciding there are 'deserving poor' and 'underserving poor', IMO.

sooperdooper Mon 02-Sep-13 11:25:27

I think a lot of what he's saying makes sense, peo

lottieandmia Mon 02-Sep-13 11:26:36

Oh I heard this too. His way of expressing himself is clumsy and he doesn't endear himself to anyone!

lottieandmia Mon 02-Sep-13 11:27:03

He needs a PR advisor

Nancy66 Mon 02-Sep-13 11:30:11

I think he endears himself to a lot of people.

it's also a complete myth that healthy food is time-consuming to prepare.

Tin of sardines on toast - how long does that take?

limitedperiodonly Mon 02-Sep-13 11:31:02

He doesn't lottie. His message goes down a treat with the people who buy his stuff and he knows it.

Faithless12 Mon 02-Sep-13 11:32:44

I'd hardly count sardines on toast as a 'healthy' meal and it's not one I'd eat nor would I give it to DS (fish bones?)

LifeofPo Mon 02-Sep-13 11:32:44

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

expatinscotland Mon 02-Sep-13 11:33:56

He's a rent a gob. Needs to shut up and good rather than flapping his chops at every turn.

Nancy66 Mon 02-Sep-13 11:35:44

Sardines are very healthy. It was just an example. There are dozens of meals that are quick, easy and healthy.

lottieandmia Mon 02-Sep-13 11:39:28

grin expat

Dawndonnaagain Mon 02-Sep-13 11:39:39

Sardines on toast are a quick healthy lunchtime/teatime meal, even tinned ones.
Personally, I think we need to go back to proper home economic lessons in school. My children have just moved into sixth form. Their home economics lessons went on until year three. They learnt to make scones. Four different ways. They learnt to make pizza base/pizzas. That was it. We regularly have baking days at home, and the amount of kids I have over that have never cooked anything from scratch is phenomenal. The saddest was last year, two kids over, one open mouthed in the kitchen as I cooked a fish pie, she had only had one from the microwave at home. The other watching out of the window where I'd sent ds to grab some potatoes from the garden. Didn't have a clue that potatoes came from the ground.

Lottapianos Mon 02-Sep-13 11:40:39

'There are dozens of meals that are quick, easy and healthy'

This is very true, although you do need some basic cooking skills in order to make them, which a lot of people don't have. It is shocking that there are adults in this country who have never learned to cook anything from scratch. I totally agree that basic cooking skills and an understanding of nutrition should be taught in schools, although saying that I'm aware that schools have ever more demands piled on top of them!

lottieandmia Mon 02-Sep-13 11:41:26

He admitted that people on low incomes could not afford his products - it all seems rather crass to me.

Nancy66 Mon 02-Sep-13 11:45:13

Lotta - yes, I agree with that.

I have a family member who works with young, single mothers and she says that most of them would not have a clue how to cook a baked potato.

Tingalingle Mon 02-Sep-13 11:46:24

Yakky, just a thought (I have two easy-feeders and a picky one): could you make a small shepherd's pie, but make burgers and potato wedges out of some of the mince and spuds -- exactly the same ingredients differently shaped?

I am the first to admit this doesn't work if you are spinning out the mince with lentils, carrots and random veg from the fridge drawer...

twistyfeet Mon 02-Sep-13 11:46:32

they cant afford his books either

Nancy66 Mon 02-Sep-13 11:48:00

They can watch the telly show though.

Mutley77 Mon 02-Sep-13 11:48:54

I use convenience food at least a coupe of times per week and also buy the kids the odd McD's (maybe once a month) - although I probably will stop that now I have heard the latest about what's in the burgers so can't plead ignorance!!

I feel generally quite lucky in terms of finances etc and at the moment I am at home full-time. But I have a newborn, no paid or other help (just re-located six months ago), and not much sleep. Therefore if my kids are happy and reasonably well nourished I have to leave it at that really - there are other things that are more important IMO - eg my sanity (kids won't be as well off if mummy is totally losing the plot rather than only slightly losing it!). I think money does have something to do with it as well as the cost of the food, you need to factor in the cost of the time - if you can pay someone else to help (not necessarily with the cooking) or afford to work less hours - it makes a big difference.

If my budget was unlimited, my baby was a bit older and more self-sufficient, and I had a cleaner etc I would love to buy and cook fresh lovely different meals all the time but I can't manage it.

I do make sure the kids have their five a day. Breakfast is always healthy cereal or toast (ocassionally) and fruit. I also do a reasonably healthy packed lunch for them - but do include a biscuit or popcorn. I try and make snacks healthy but they do have biscuits, icecreams etc as well.

Faithless12 Mon 02-Sep-13 11:49:04

I'm not disagreeing that there are loads of quick easy and healthy meals but I wouldn't count sardines on toast as one especially not for my family.
It's not got all the food groups for one. I suppose it depends on what you count as quick. For me 30 mins is quick enough and there are loads that you can do in 30 mins so long as you organise yourself

ExcuseTypos Mon 02-Sep-13 11:50:04

I agree with what you're saying, Lotta regarding people not having cooking skills. However almost everyone in the country has access to the Internet and/or a library.

I agree that not everyone is capable of learning how to cook on thier own, but A LOT are.

As nancy says sardines on toast/ with pasta and some veg is a healthy cheap meal. There are many other 'basic' cheap, healthy meals. I think JO is trying to say (badly) that people need to stop making excuses, that many people can decide to feed yourself and family healthier and cheaper. He's also said his book is not for people on a very very tight budget.

And I'll say again, not everyone is capable or able to learn to cook, but many are.

ExcuseTypos Mon 02-Sep-13 11:53:46

Mutely, yes things are a lot easier when you don't have a new baby, but I just want to point out that you don't need a cleaner in order to cook healthy meals for your family, you really don't. smile

Crowler Mon 02-Sep-13 11:54:14

His products are too expensive for most.

His recipes & ideas are accessible to many.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Mon 02-Sep-13 11:54:59

He was dreadful on Woman's Hour. I think that, um, I think that, um.... I was misquoted, but I spent loadsamoney on stuff for a school and they all had iPhones... And I like women, 'I've got loads of em'.

LifeofPo Mon 02-Sep-13 11:55:51

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lottapianos Mon 02-Sep-13 11:57:23

'I agree with what you're saying, Lotta regarding people not having cooking skills. However almost everyone in the country has access to the Internet and/or a library. '

You're right ExcuseTypos. We do need to cut through the excuses and learned helplessness. And if it's not a parent's responsibility to do everything they can to make sure that their child grows up healthy, then whose is it?

TheOriginalSteamingNit Mon 02-Sep-13 11:59:34

If it's the parents' responsibility, why does Jamie think he has the right or the factual knowledge to start mouthing off about it?

And if he's a business man and answerable only to the question of whether something is profitable, fine: he shouldn't pretend there's some sort of altruistic motive behind it, then!

ExcuseTypos Mon 02-Sep-13 11:59:41

That's a bit mean TheOrigional. No, he's not the most eloquent speaker but you're picking phrases out of context. He actually said he employed 7000 women and if he had the choice of only ever employ on men or women, he would choose women every time.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Mon 02-Sep-13 12:01:12

Yes, and he actually said he liked women and he had some, too. He said both those things.

Lottapianos Mon 02-Sep-13 12:01:41

'If it's the parents' responsibility, why does Jamie think he has the right or the factual knowledge to start mouthing off about it? '

Because lots of parents are not stepping up! And he does know a hell of a lot more about this subject than most

I think it's possible to be a business person and to aim to maximise your profits but also to care about other people and want to behave ethically.

friday16 Mon 02-Sep-13 12:01:45

"I'd hardly count sardines on toast as a 'healthy' meal"

People's reluctance to cook and eat cheap, healthy oily fish is a constant source of wonder to me. Last week I did a meal for four for about two quid because Waitrose (!) were selling herring which, to their financial detriment, they had gutted in advance but were selling at the ungutted price. I bought four to cook there and then and another four to freeze. When I wandered past at the end of my shop I noticed they had sold precisely none more.

Supermarket fish counters routinely have piles of mackerel, sardines and similar which are dirt cheap but which again, very few people are willing to deal with. Nine times out of ten a supermarket fish counter will gut and fillet them for you, but even if they won't, it's hardly a taxing job. You then get all the "but my kids won't eat it" crap, which is only true because people then cook them something else.

And tinned sardines are the cupboard staple of the Gods: mix with sliced peppers and cold pasta for a salad, add a can of tinned tomatoes and top with bread crumbs to make a bake, etc, etc, etc.

lottieandmia Mon 02-Sep-13 12:03:21

'So what if folk can't afford his products, he is a business man, some of you are being deliberately dense about the issues he raised.'

Er, no. The point is that it's quite ironic that he markets products that he acknowledges are not aimed at the very people he criticises because of how they choose to feed their children. As someone up thread says, the issue of what people feed their children and what they eat themselves is a complex one.

If he wants to make crass comments which show very little insight about different people from different socioeconomic backgrounds then he can expect to get a grilling about it.

KoalaFace Mon 02-Sep-13 12:03:29

Huge TVs and gadgets are made easier to get hold of with awful stores like Bright House. There's very little aimed at struggling families to make it easier to buy fruit, veg and fresh meat.

Frozen pizzas, chips and the like can be shockingly cheap. It takes practice and thought and preparation time to make healthy food that is as cheap as those unhealthy options. If that is what Jamie Oliver is trying to promote then very good. But the TV thing is irrelevant.

catinabox Mon 02-Sep-13 12:03:44

It just pisses me off that on one hand 'the poor' are exploited and on the other are blamed and beaten with a big stick.

Anyone who wants to criticise someone’s choices ought to go and move to a sprawling suburban housing development, with no transport, over inflated fuel costs on a key metre, a few hostile neighbours, a crappy over priced 'one stop shop' selling a bag of manky potatoes for £2.50, mass unemployment, a local chippy and try and live off £80.00 per week?

And we are going to complain about someone having a big telly and item of clothes that they feel nice in? So should we expect 'the poor' to walk miles and miles to the shops in their sack cloths and carry back heavy bags of fresh produce purchased affordably from the (not very) local market?

What is the point in blaming people and finger pointing.

I'm bloody grateful every day that i can afford to whack the oven on and cook a lasagne from scratch and chuck in a batch of cakes or two while i'm at it...................... To be in a position to do that and criticise people for their choices when they have so many less is really sadly quite ignorant.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Mon 02-Sep-13 12:05:10

He knows fuck-all about actual poverty, and it's offensive of him to speak as though he does. He knows a lot about nice food, I'm sure, and how to source it etc etc, but he does not know about the issues he's whipping up a Daily Mail frenzy about.

And Lottie, I agree entirely with everything in your post.

Lottapianos Mon 02-Sep-13 12:06:40

'You then get all the "but my kids won't eat it" crap, which is only true because people then cook them something else. '

<applauds>

There's also a surprising number of adults who are seriously resistant to trying any new foods. One of the Children's Centres where I work ran a drop-in session during the summer, where children could get involved in making healthy veg dips. All the food was provided for free and parents and children made the dips together. All lovely jubbly until it came to actually eating the dips! All parents refused and of course all the children did too hmm

lottieandmia Mon 02-Sep-13 12:07:22

I agree catinabox.

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 12:11:27

What Catinabox said.

It's all very well him criticising but he has no idea about the daily reality of poverty.

limitedperiodonly Mon 02-Sep-13 12:11:37

So should we expect 'the poor' to walk miles and miles to the shops in their sack cloths and carry back heavy bags of fresh produce purchased affordably from the (not very) local market?

I think you've just hit on an idea for Jamie's next programme.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Mon 02-Sep-13 12:11:56

I can recognize what you're talking about with the dips Lotta, but the answer isn't to lambast those parents for the TV or the phone they've got, surely? To be honest, I wouldn't much care for a healthy veg dip myself, but because I'm not poor, that's somehow acceptable....

And I can think of lots what I think of as 'reverse Little Red Hen' scenarios with my kids: ie., everyone enjoys the baking or the cooking, but no-one ends up wanting to eat what's made!

I think then either you look into making things that will go down better (and it doesn't have to be cheesy chips!), or you ask people what they'd like to make, or you try again.... you don't just make sweeping JO statements about how there's no poverty etc.

Nancy66 Mon 02-Sep-13 12:17:13

But are there really people who live on estates that are so isolated that they don't have a supermarket within a 30 minute walk? that there's not a bus they can catch to a shopping centre or market?

As you say the 7-11 type shops they have access to will be massively over-charging.

Is a supermarket delivery done online not an option?

expatinscotland Mon 02-Sep-13 12:17:18

He's a chef who is out to sell books and line his purse however he can. He's not doing anything for altruistic reasons. LOL. Why take him seriously? He's a slack-jawed, motorised garden tool spraffing off his fat gob. Shut up and cook, Jamie.

expatinscotland Mon 02-Sep-13 12:19:01

'But are there really people who live on estates that are so isolated that they don't have a supermarket within a 30 minute walk? '

Yes. I lived in one. And they didn't deliver to that postcode. Surprise, surprise!

Now we live in a rural location where the nearest supermarket is a 2.5 mile walk, the bus costs £4 return and no, they don't offer delivery.

That's more common than you'd think, too.

friday16 Mon 02-Sep-13 12:19:05

"Anyone who wants to criticise someone’s choices ought to go and move to a sprawling suburban housing development, "

I live about four hundred yards from a large council estate that is routinely listed as one of the most deprived in Britain. At least in other parts of the city there's a drug economy; this doesn't even have that. Massive levels of unemployment and (particularly) incapacity benefit, in a post-industrial, ageing white community. Between me and the estate there is a large Sainsbury's, which is pretty decent, decent enough to do a middle class weekly shop if you can't be bothered to go over to Waitrose. Nonetheless, you can watch people filling their trolleys with complete and utter shit, and expensive shit at that. The "oh, food desert" argument simply doesn't apply: they're in a large, modern, fully stocked Sainsburys, and still buying overpriced crap.

But I used to work in another area of the city which is getting on for as deprived, but is probably 80% BME, mostly Bangladeshi and Pakistani. The shops over there were a delight, and people were buying (and presumably cooking) healthy, interesting meals. I used to buy big bags of urad and handfuls of mysteriously vegetables I didn't quite recognise. Even the Asda in the area was worth visiting, and trolleys were full to the brim with healthy ingredients.

So I think the claim that it's about poverty and food deserts may have some mileage, but the legacy of Thatcher as education secretary in the 1970s de-emphasising "Domestic Science" so that we now have two generations who have not been taught to cook has had a pretty catastrophic effect. There's a very depressing thread over on MSE at the moment from a mother who has, it would appear, never cooked and has no idea where to start.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Mon 02-Sep-13 12:19:11

When you're skint, you're much more likely to shop day-to-day, aren't you? The poorer we've been, the less likely to be able to do 'big shops', I know.

AppleYumYum Mon 02-Sep-13 12:19:31

I really admire him, he isn't perfect and he isn't polished, he tries hard and has done more than many others to try to change the state of things, give him a break.

No one likes hearing that they are feeding their kids crap, but parents need to realise that it is a long term game here. It might seem fine today, it was cheap and they were tired or in a hurry... but the child becomes obese, they are teased, it is hard to shift the weight, they have no cooking skills or taste for healthy things, they end up unwell as adults, stress on the NHS system, if they have children they feed them the same stuff as it is all they know and the cycle continues.

I got the impression he had been caught off-guard by the way the show progressed, or that Jane Garvey had thrown in some extra bits he wasn't expecting.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Mon 02-Sep-13 12:23:13

I do agree that Food Tech in schools is awful - now there's a campaign I could get behind.

Put some tomato puree and a chopped onion on a bread roll, add sprinkle of cheese - hey presto, Quick 'n' Easy Pizza! Pour tinned fruit on sliced pre-bought cake, pour carton of custard on fruit - hey presto, Quick 'n' Easy Trifle!

Teach them how you know when chicken is cooked enough not to kill you, and how to make an acceptable pasta sauce. Not all this 'design your own healthy scone' bollocks.

bigkidsdidit Mon 02-Sep-13 12:26:00

I agree with most of what e says.

I am always surprised that on mumsnet, a site with a mostly educated, fairly well off readership, the majority of posters on lunchbox threads say they give their small children crisps and chocolate every day. And claim it is all part of a 'balanced diet'. Actually that is NOT a balanced diet and we have lost sight of what we should be eating in this country, I think, and how cheap it can be.

We eat (toddler and all) sardines on toast often here. Mixed with cream cheese and cucumber on the side. They're delicious!

Lottapianos Mon 02-Sep-13 12:26:03

'Teach them how you know when chicken is cooked enough not to kill you, and how to make an acceptable pasta sauce'

Cooked enough not to kill you is just how I like my chicken! grin You're right though - teach them 10 or 12 meals that you can make in 30 minutes for not much money using fresh ingredients and with no outrageously fancy cooking techniques.

twistyfeet Mon 02-Sep-13 12:26:50

Buses are expensive Nancy

friday16 Mon 02-Sep-13 12:33:56

"Yes. I lived in one. And they didn't deliver to that postcode. Surprise, surprise!"

But that's not true universally. I've just looked up a random postcode in the most deprived ward in this city, amongst the most deprived wards in the country. All the major supermarkets deliver, including Ocado.

Nancy66 Mon 02-Sep-13 12:33:58

Expat - that's fair enough, thanks.

Twisty - yes, buses can be expensive but when you take into account the local shop that's charging you £2 for a loaf of bread or £1 for a pint of milk it probably evens out

Crowler Mon 02-Sep-13 12:34:38

There is no way that lack of access to good groceries or shops can account for the way that huge numbers of kids are eating in this country.

I live in walking distance to North End Rd which has a fairly famous daily fruit and vegetable market, as well as scores of diverse African/middle eastern/asian shops that have fresh everything - and the Iceland, set in the middle of all of this, is always heaving. It's a typical Iceland customer base, and they are buying frozen rice, frozen potatoes, vegetables, pies - everything frozen. Queues so hideous I rarely get through one, I almost always defect.

People who can't shop through isolation are not really the reason that this country is in the midst of an epidemic.

He's just saying uncomfortable truths. The health and nutrition of your children should've your top priority. For a lot of families it isn't, despite the excuses. Parents make a conscious choice to feed their kids crap.

So flame me.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Mon 02-Sep-13 12:36:49

What are the people in deprived areas whingeing about then, if Ocado deliver! confused

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 12:39:33

A lot of people in poverty can't afford to do an online food shop because of ridiculous 'ghost' payments that send them overdrawn and the fact that you have to spend over a certain amount in the first place.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Mon 02-Sep-13 12:42:09

Again: when you're skint, you very rarely make the economies of scale possible by doing weekly/monthly shops. You shop day to day. This is why there are savings plans for Christmas shopping (farepak?) - because you can't just go in December and do it all at once, any more than you can go and do a big shop in a supermarket every Saturday and spend £80-100: even if that would save you money in the longer term!

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 12:43:20

It's cheaper to eat crap than home cooked food made with fresh ingredients. FACT.

For a family of 4 you need to be able to spend at least 35 quid a week on food to avoid mwave meal hell, and about 45 quid a week to get fresh ingredients for cooking.

If JO and his supermarket sponsors actually want to help (rather than just mouthing off) they should sell fresh ingredients cheaper. FACT.

MrsDeVere Mon 02-Sep-13 12:43:28

I listened to him.
He is more chippy than the chippiest of chippy mumnetters.

He doesn't like to be challenged at all.

He may well have some good points but he puts them across in an arrogant and ill informed way.

No excuse. He has the power and money to sort out his PR. He just doesn't think he needs to because he is RIGHT.

All that guff about women hmm

PeanutButterMmm Mon 02-Sep-13 12:45:13

I don't always buy the i don't have the time arguement when it comes to cooking because so many people have plenty of time for other things such as MN, Facebook, the internet in general.

Some people enjoy cooking and it's a pleasure, some don't like it and find it a chore and some are inbetween. However, surely every parent has a responsibilty to prepare and feed their children the best food they can afford, even if it means you go without some luxury items or downgrade in something elsewhere. Is that not what Jamie is saying?

Friday16 was right i saying trollies are filled to the brim full of shite in supermarkets (apparently stacks of crisps, chocolate bars and fizzy drinks are essential items) and if you took them out of the trolly and put in proper ingriedients to make meals with the bill would be the same if not cheeaper. The junk is okay sometimes but not if people are forfeiting decent healthy food in order to buy it. Healthy food is cheaper to buy then junk.

Most people have the internet nowadays, on the internet is thousands of recipes of all kinds, youtube and the like do videos on how to cook certain dishes, delia started a FREE cookery course online, the library has free books on cooking, some childrens centres run courses on cooking/healthy eating etc. It's everywhere and it's about helping yourselves with the resources out there instead of using the same old lines of "i can't afford to eat healthy food" and have no time when actually if you can afford to eat expensive^unhealthy^food then you could afford to eat healthy food also. I agree schools should be doing decent cooking lessons also to help things.

LifeofPo Mon 02-Sep-13 12:45:19

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrsDeVere Mon 02-Sep-13 12:45:33

original I remember thread on here expressing utter amazement that anyone would be silly enough o use those saving schemes.

Why oh why when you could just put some money aside and then go to the fabulous local produce market instead hmm

Some people just don't have a scooby. JO is one of them.

lottieandmia Mon 02-Sep-13 12:46:24

I thought the same MrsDeVere. And yes it's so true that if you're broke you have to shop day to day.

catinabox Mon 02-Sep-13 12:46:49

But are there really people who live on estates that are so isolated that they don't have a supermarket within a 30 minute walk? that there's not a bus they can catch to a shopping centre or market?

Yes there are. And if there was a supermarket within a 30 minute walk how practical would it be for a parent with young children to make this trip and carry a load of heavy stuff home? Yes possible but bloody demoralising in the rain when people are driving past in their nice warm cars. I wouldn't want to face that regularly.

Briliant post friday you are right, it is complex. There are studies on food deserts and the findings are very much that they contribute to poor health, and food poverty. The government actually stated this in a study undertaken about tesco growth. (Please god don't anyone make me find this!)

But what you say about sainsburys etc in your local area, that is a fair comment but if you live a long way from the supermarket, dont have transport buying fresh produce is not going to be cost effective if you are doing a fortnightly shop when the money comes in. Also sainsburys are REALLY expensive!

I do a round trip of 25 miles to go to the ethnic supermarkets every now and again as i love the variety and the cost is tiny in comparison. I batch cook stuff and stick it in the freezer and stock up on spices and stuff. It's a nice afternoon out too. BUT I am middle class and have money and a car and food is fun for me and not a big issue of resourses.

I think that is also a massive factor. How we feel about food. If you are hungry and scared you can't provide enough of it, there is little choice, the relationship with it is very different.

MrsDeVere Mon 02-Sep-13 12:46:55

lifof I agree it was a daft point. But the way JO answers things just makes me hmm. I was on his side with that one but by the time he stopped whinging (he had to be told to stop) I just thought 'oh shut up'

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 12:46:58

(apparently stacks of crisps, chocolate bars and fizzy drinks are essential items) and if you took them out of the trolly and put in proper ingriedients to make meals with the bill would be the same if not cheeaper.

This simply isn't true. Price per calorie on the things you list is very very much lower than for 'proper ingredients'

lentils are twice as expensive as chocolate biscuits per calorie.

Crowler Mon 02-Sep-13 12:47:11

Ocado has a 40 pound minimum spend, 25 on Co-Op. You may or may not be charged for delivery, depending on which slot you pick.
What ghost payments are you speaking of?

HungryGeorge Mon 02-Sep-13 12:47:16

catinabox Mon 02-Sep-13 10:18:37

Going on about people in poverty wearing designer clothes and having electronic gadgets.....

and he has JUST said something along the lines of ' it hasn't been easy for me the last few years, i know people think i'm rich'

He hasn't got a blimming clue about poverty..he shouldn't pretend he has...

so his 'apology' on the webchat last week was bollocks then if he's still spouting the same shite. Not listened to him though.. will go read the thread now grin

PeanutButterMmm Mon 02-Sep-13 12:50:29

IceBeing you can't write something is a "fact" when it's not. "Crap" as you put it is a very expensive way to eat. When you build up a store cupboard of certain ingredients over time (i don't mean in one shop and i don't mean Jamies products) you can make homecooked proper meals very cheaply.

Penniepitstop Mon 02-Sep-13 12:51:32

Jamie Oliver employs 5000 people, that's a lot of responsibility. Yes, he probably is loaded but then again you need a lot of money coming in each month to pay 5000 salaries, i wouldn't want that stress. I agree with everything he says and good for him for having the guts to say it.

lottieandmia Mon 02-Sep-13 12:51:52

'However, surely every parent has a responsibilty to prepare and feed their children the best food they can afford, even if it means you go without some luxury items or downgrade in something elsewhere. Is that not what Jamie is saying?'

He may think this. In an ideal world it would be great if this was the case in every family. But it's a complex issue and he is not well placed to spout off about things like this when he sells expensive fish fingers marketed at people who have the money to afford more choice about what they eat. And then to cast judgment on families who live a life he has no clue about. Most people in his position would realise that it's not appropriate to blab every thought in his head to the nation.

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 12:52:00

Ghost payments are when they take a payment at the point of ordering and then take the actual payment when it is delivered (as the amounts may differ due to special offers etc).

The ghost payment is credited back to the account but it can take days to register and if you are on a tight budget that can be enough to send you into overdraft and incur charges.

LRDMaguliYaPomochTebeSRaboti Mon 02-Sep-13 12:53:15

FWIW, cat, I don't think where I live is particularly isolated at all, but when I think about it, no, there isn't a free bus to any of the big supermarkets from here, and the nearest shop in town is a 3.30 bus ride away (and isn't so good for deals as it's a Tesco Metro not a big one). If you walked it'd be well over 30 minutes, probably more like an hour there and back. Other than that there's a couple of little corner shops, a M&S food at the petrol station and a Waitrose mini at the other petrol station (both charge more in these than at the regular shop).

There's council housing just over the road from me.

The bus takes me into town in 10-15 minutes so I'd never thought of it as being isolated at all, and I've got a city postcode. But when I think about it, it'd actually be quite tricky to get quickly and cheaply to the sort of supermarket where you could stock up at a decent price.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 12:53:36

peanut it is a FACT that you can eat crap cheaper.

As only one example - this week you could buy 3kg worth of ready meals in Iceland for under £5. You cannot make that cheaper.

This thread was devoted to the exercise of working this kind of thing out and the answer is that you can eat enough for a family of 4 for about 26 quid a week eating ready made crap.

If you can beat that with a home cooking recipe collection then go to it! But many many people on the thread tried and failed.

PeanutButterMmm Mon 02-Sep-13 12:53:53

A bag of lentils will last over a number of meals, a pack of chocolate biscuits A) Isn't part of a meal and B) Would not last 5 minutes.

Say you pay £1 for a pack of biscuits and £1.50 for a bag of lentils. "But the lentils are more expensive" you might say - well the lentils will go far and last a lot longer, the biscuits won't.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 12:54:27

peanut you wrote that it is cheaper to home cook as if it was a FACT. You are the one writing things as facts that are totally incorrect.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 12:55:14

peanut do stop love, you are embarrassing yourself.

I said PER CALORIE. Doesn't matter about the size of the pack.

It costs you more to get calories from lentils than from chocolate biscuits FACT.

FantasticDay Mon 02-Sep-13 12:55:52

Crowler, there is nothing wrong nutritionally speaking with frozen veg. In fact frozen peas maintain more vitamins than fresh.

Crowler Mon 02-Sep-13 12:56:13

It cannot be that hard to build up a store cupboard of beans (which kids love), tinned tomatoes, coconut cream, popcorn (for snacks) etc. It's just considered a silly, "lentil-weaving" middle class thing to do which is pretty sad.

Crowler Mon 02-Sep-13 12:56:41

I have no problem with frozen vegetables.

LRDMaguliYaPomochTebeSRaboti Mon 02-Sep-13 12:58:05

Btw, also where I live: chippy. 2 minutes walk away. Very cheap chips.

This is probably not a coincidence.

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 12:58:11

Yes it can be that hard. If you have nothing left what are you supposed to buy these store cupboard items with? Scotch mist?

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 13:00:53

I agree with what Jamie Oliver is trying to say. He's actually brave enough to say it. Well done Jamie Oliver!

There are people that would prefer to pay for fags and energy drinks over healthy ingredients to make a meal. It's true!

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 13:01:04

1.5kg of chocolate biscuits: £2:20 7425 kcals
1.5kg of lentils: £3:27 1575 kcals

lentils are 7 times as expensive as chocolate biscuits per calorie.

Crap is cheaper FACT.

Crowler Mon 02-Sep-13 13:02:50

If you swap read-made things for their cheaper, less processed variety i.e. instead of baked beans --> a big bag of lentils. Then you have a bag of lentils that goes further than baked beans. Instead of a jar pasta sauce, a pack of 4 tins of tomatoes. And so on.

catinabox Mon 02-Sep-13 13:03:04

It cannot be that hard to build up a store cupboard of beans (which kids love), tinned tomatoes, coconut cream, popcorn (for snacks) etc. It's just considered a silly, "lentil-weaving" middle class thing to do which is pretty sad

Good point. The thing is though that when you are living on a really low income you are not going to stock up on anything because every penny you need, you need now.....if you get tinned tomatoes you need to eat them with something, heat them etc...it's more money on the leccy and gas...all that stuff in the cupboard that you can knock up a meal with just isn't there when you are in grinding poverty. Youve either eaten it already or not brought it in the first place.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 13:04:09

I am not arguing that some people couldn't make better choices about expenditure. If you smoke and then have to feed your kids shit then I would wonder about your priorities.

BUT

There are a significant number of people who can't afford fags or alcohol and who still have to feed their kids crap because it is cheaper than home cooking.

IF you have less than 35 quid to spend on food a week then you are stuffed.

Crowler Mon 02-Sep-13 13:04:21

IceBeing we're talking about different levels of poverty here. If you're struggling to maintain a certain level of calories per day, Jamie Oliver probably can't help you.

If you're struggling to feed a family of 4 healthy food within your budget because of work etc, that's different.

Crowler Mon 02-Sep-13 13:04:33

Our posts crossed.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 13:04:49

crowler you are wrong. Cheap ready meals are cheaper than buying lentils etc.

PeanutButterMmm Mon 02-Sep-13 13:05:15

I never mentioned the size of the pack. I meant if the chocolate biscuits were 50p cheaper then the lentals for the same weight surely anyone could see the lentals are going to stretch over a number of meals, add bulk to a meal and overal are going to be better value for your money? The chocolate biscuits would last one sitting in a family home and the only thing they would bulk up is someones waistline!

I think education is the key here, i mean if we have parents thinking chocolate biscuits are better value to feed their familes on because they cannot work out that proper healthy ingredients go further in tne long run so work out better value then we really are in trouble.

catinabox Mon 02-Sep-13 13:05:26

*1.5kg of chocolate biscuits: £2:20 7425 kcals
1.5kg of lentils: £3:27 1575 kcals

lentils are 7 times as expensive as chocolate biscuits per calorie*

...and we all choose to 'fill up' when you are hungry and cold.....Anyway, cooking lentils costs lots in fuel, you need spices and other things to make them taste like something that hasn't come out of someones hoover bag...

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 13:06:05

oh xpost.
yes indeed.

people who think home cooking is cheap are not the people who can't feed their kids anything but processed crap.

People think of 'normal' mwave meals, or take out or McD's when they think of crap, but there is a whole lower level down there...

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 13:06:19

But Crowler, you can't just eat lentils, you have to have something to go with them.

Baked beans is a better option because they are cheaper and you can just eat them without having to add a tonne of ingredients.

And you can get a jar of pasta sauce for 44p.

pinkhalf Mon 02-Sep-13 13:09:24

I din't get the abuse of JO. Feeding yourself and your kids a bad diet has consequences, he's at least not pretending that its good or okay for you to do this. It isn't. Kids that are overweight or poorly nutrioned will struggle.

Yes it is lazy not to bother. No it is not hard to cook. This is your body and your children. Set an example, ffs. I remember seeing one of his programmes years ago with mothers shoving burgers through the school gates so their kids could avoid a healthy school meal. He must be tired of saying this over and over.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Mon 02-Sep-13 13:10:00

And what is nicer with a cup of tea than a handful of raw lentils?

catinabox Mon 02-Sep-13 13:10:05

People think of 'normal' mwave meals, or take out or McD's when they think of crap, but there is a whole lower level down there...

I don't think many people understand that ice tbh.

I know what you mean about the crap vs cooked argument. Crap is cheaper.

OhDearNigel Mon 02-Sep-13 13:10:25

Can i ask the parents of older kids, would you send your children to free cookery lessons ? Just the seed of an idea im kicking around in my brain.

Crowler Mon 02-Sep-13 13:11:02

Youthatcat - you need extremely little. Bouillon, garlic, pepper is fine. A drizzle of olive oil. This is not a problem for people not living in extreme poverty.

I agree extreme poverty is a different issue - and not the reason that UK kids are in their current predicament because the numbers don't add up.

PeanutButterMmm Mon 02-Sep-13 13:11:02

1.5kg of chocolate biscuits: £2:20 7425 kcals
1.5kg of lentils: £3:27 1575 kcals

lentils are 7 times as expensive as chocolate biscuits per calorie.

Crap is cheaper FACT.

Jesus, really. You haven't worked out that the lentils will last weeks/months and will bulk up several meals but the biscuits will last a week if that. The lentils aren't a meal in themselves, they are a store cupboard staple to go in meals to make it go further. You would buy lentils and still have them weeks/months later so wouldn't have to buy them for a while between purchases but the biscuits you would buy them each shop. Unless someone eats an awful lot of lentils they aren't something you need to buy every shop because they last ages.

Crowler Mon 02-Sep-13 13:11:50

And what is nicer with a cup of tea than a handful of raw lentils?

that's just silly.

I noticed in Morrisons yesterday that you can feed a family of 4 for £6, they have a deal on of a Large tray Lasagne, Side dish and a Bakewell tart for dessert. The meal could stretch to 6 people by just reducing the portion sizes a little.

I cook most of my meals from scratch, I could not produce this meal for £6 and I know how to economise, ready meals are cheap, they use cheap inferior ingredients produced on a mass scale, flavour it up with salts and sugars and shove in as much carb as they can.

When you are on a tight budget making sure that your family is not hungry is more important that making the meal balanced.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 13:12:13

peanut you are completely confused. calories are the important thing when you are trying to fill up tummies as a priority. You can get 7 times as many calories into your kids in the form of chocolate biscuits than you can from lentils for the SAME price.

So if you have very little money there is only one choice.

1.5kg of chocolate biscuits came in at 7000 odd calories. That is the approx daily calorie budget for a family of 4. so you could keep people energy balanced for a day on £2:20 worth of 'food'.

The equivalent spend on lentils will only get you 1050 kcals and will 'keep them going' until around 10am. So not longer at all...much much less time in fact.

Do you see what I mean?

aladdinsane Mon 02-Sep-13 13:12:17

I don't think he gives a toss about the health of the nation
He gets air time and promotion of his books with all this
Gordon Ramsey got the swearing, sort out failing restaurant niche and Jamie Oliver had to find his niche

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 13:12:31

Don't agree with what ice says. Lentils turn into huge meals with little more than water and an onion and some tinned tomatoes. You can't get that with a packet of chocolate biscuits. With a 500 g of lentils you could easily make at least four meals, each one serving a family of four.

OhDearNigel Mon 02-Sep-13 13:13:16

Jamie's market isnt people that actually have to budget though, is it ? It's thrift chic for people that watch Kirsty's Handmade Home and think they are being very budget conscious because the waitrose organic chicken they are roasting for dinner was in the reduced counter.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 13:13:38

peanut if you only eat a few a day then they aren't doing you any actual good are they?

Seriously you are making no sense.

If you spread a bag of lentils over a month you get the same calories from them that you get if you eat them in one day.

It isn't magic?

OhDearNigel Mon 02-Sep-13 13:13:57

Not lentils again !

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 13:15:16

mini what the actual fuck.

If you use them as part of a meal you have to fund the rest of the meal?

So once you factor in the meat the veg the tomatoes the chickpeas the spices you have a meal that is vastly more expensive.

The chocolate biscuits can feed you for a day. The lentils can feed you for breakfast nearly. No amount of mixing with even more expensive ingredients can change that.

Crowler Mon 02-Sep-13 13:15:35

IceBeing you and peanut are talking apples and oranges. As has been said.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 13:15:56

If you only have 25- 30 quid to spend on food a week, you can't afford lentils.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Mon 02-Sep-13 13:16:19

Well, it's not silly, because lentils and chocolate biscuits don't fulfil the same purpose, do they? And if you need something to eat now then obviously it's going to be the chocolate biscuits.

However, I do think this also ties into the problems with Food Tech in schools, which, as I say, is a campaign I could really get my teeth into!

Crowler Mon 02-Sep-13 13:16:21

Lentils do seem to be a lightening rod, don't they?

ZeroTolerance Mon 02-Sep-13 13:16:32

What a lot of whinging and excuse-making.

Truth is, nobody likes being criticised for their choices.

And Mumsnetters cannot abide being told what to do - especially by people with money.

JO makes a lot of sense, though I don't know why he bothers, the grief he gets.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 13:16:35

I am talking what you can actually afford to buy if you are seriously hard up.

That other people can afford lentils is not particularly relevant.

twistyfeet Mon 02-Sep-13 13:17:31

so what do people suggest? How many of you are volunteering to set up cookery classes? Putting your money where your mouth is? JO is spouting off but I dont see a cooking class in the deprived area where I live. I see exhaused people in poverty in Iceland trying to make pennies stretch. I see the greengrocers closing because a fucking Tesco's metro with stuff more expensive than the Tesco superstore 4 miles away openend. It killed the High Street. Oh, and it doesnt have loose fruit n veg like the greengrocer did. It sells packs. Packs of apples for £2.50 for 5. The Butchers is faltering now.
It used to be that elderly and poor people could go in and buy a cheap cut for one meal from the butcher who would tell them how to cook it. We campaigned against that Tesco. ow we have no choice and it is more expensive for meat.fruit and veg. Ready made stuff is cheaper and there's BOGOF's on cheap crap. This does not help.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 13:18:11

It doesn't have to be lentils...it could be anything.

The cheapest sources of calories are processed foods.

IF you have little money to spend on food you HAVE to eat processed.

That is the only point I am making.

The majority of people have enough money to eat non-processed food but a minority don't.

That is all.

Crowler Mon 02-Sep-13 13:18:48

Well, it's not silly, because lentils and chocolate biscuits don't fulfil the same purpose, do they? And if you need something to eat now then obviously it's going to be the chocolate biscuits.

Where have I proposed lentils as a snack? Jeez.

This is from IceBeing's comment about meeting a calorie baseline, which is not the demographic we're talking about because that's extreme poverty.

Lentils are actually delicious and somehow they've gotten a bad rap. I love McDonalds, too - I have appalling junk food habits and I love lentils so they can't be that bad.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 13:19:32

lentils: delicious but expensive.

Crowler Mon 02-Sep-13 13:20:09

IceBerg I don't think anyone here is criticizing that extremely vulnerable minority. That's why people are getting frustrated over the lentils v cookies.

I agree 100% that lentils cost more per calorie than cookies.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 13:20:31

seriously how can people be so dumb as to think you get more food out of the packet if you spread it over more meals?

If I have 1 biscuit a day I can make the pack last a whole frigging month!

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 13:21:01

Bouillon and olive oil? Yes very accessible to the poor.

And it hardly makes for a nutritious meal either.

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 13:21:36

I cook most of my meals from scratch, I could not produce this meal for £6 and I know how to economise, ready meals are cheap, they use cheap inferior ingredients produced on a mass scale, flavour it up with salts and sugars and shove in as much carb as they can.

I think you're cooking the wrong meals then.
I can make a main meal for a family of four for let's say £2.00 and that would be organic ingredients. Admittedly it would be vegetarian though.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Mon 02-Sep-13 13:21:57

I like lentils very much, they are lovely. However comparing them to chocolate biscuits and saying people should just buy them instead is a bit silly.

Nancy66 Mon 02-Sep-13 13:22:01

I think all the balsamic, olive oil, chilli flake, pesto talk confuses the issue.

the people we're talking about are just not going to eat in that way. But a tin of plum tomatoes on a slice of wholemeal toast with a bit of Worcestershire sauce on top is lovely, healthy and - what - 60p?

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 13:22:03

I know crow I am cool with that. I just don't like what other posters have been saying - ie spouting the old 'home cooking is cheaper' nonsense.

It isn't cheaper. That doesn't mean that most people can't afford to do it and benefit. It just isn't cheaper.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 13:22:56

theO well it would be silly if anyone was doing it...

if you can't afford lentils you buy chocolate biscuits. If you can then I would suggest you do.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 13:23:57

mini - lets have a recipe then....

TheOriginalSteamingNit Mon 02-Sep-13 13:24:03

Sure - so publish a nice cheap book with recipes like that, and don't insult the people you think should be eating it, JO!

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 13:24:24

*mini what the actual fuck.

If you use them as part of a meal you have to fund the rest of the meal?

So once you factor in the meat the veg the tomatoes the chickpeas the spices you have a meal that is vastly more expensive.

The chocolate biscuits can feed you for a day. The lentils can feed you for breakfast nearly. No amount of mixing with even more expensive ingredients can change that.*

As I said before, a lentil soup that would feed four and stretch to six just buy adding slightly more lentils and water can be made for about a £1.00 and bread for about a £1.00 if not less, and organic. You don't NEED to eat meat if your budget doesn't allow it. It's all choices.

MacaYoniandCheese Mon 02-Sep-13 13:25:16

He's absolutely right to highlight the fact that some families are lazy and neglectful and prioritize gadgets over proper meal-planning and buying real food. There's no point in pussyfooting around it, is there? And so what if he's wealthy? Why does one have to actually be impoverished to comment on this subject? No, his recipes are not 'bare bones', survival recipes but there are plenty of websites/library books out there that address this need if you have the will. He's done A LOT in terms of raising awareness about the state of our children's nutrition.

PeanutButterMmm Mon 02-Sep-13 13:25:17

I don't know how the comparison of lentils and chocolate biscuits came about tbh - i mean of course chocolate biscuits taste yummy and the lentils are, well, just lentils. But the point is when someone is on a tight budget walking around the supermarket, putting less crap in would free up your money to purchase things to bulk up your cupboard which will bulk up your meals for weeks to come. It works out cheaper in the long run.

If you took a trolly with a normal shop plus chocolate, crisps and other crap and it came to say £30.

Then if you took a trolly with a normal shop, took out the crap and replaced it with cupboard staples like lentils/tins of stuff/herbs etc and that came to £35.

The second trolly was more expensive but next time you do your shop you will still have some of the staples in the cupboard so won't need to buy them again for a while. So this time your shop may come to £25.

The first trolly will most likely have to buy the crap in their trolly again on their next shop because it doesn't last 5 minutes.

So when you can't be bothered to cook or haven't much in, you can cook a pot of pasta, add some chopped tomatoes, a tin of something else, some dries basil and you have a meal from the cupboard to see you through.

Or you could just take out the chocolate biscuits and count that as a meal for your kids if you like.

Mini I can make a main meal for 6 people for only a couple of quid, what I can't make is a lasagne (with meat) Side dish and a very large dessert for the price that the supermarkets are selling them at.

KoalaFace Mon 02-Sep-13 13:28:36

Tesco sell frozen pizzas for 60p and bags of frozen chips for £1.40. A family of 4 could eat for £2. I know there are ways to feed a family something healthier for similar but they require planning and preparation. It seems impossible to some people.

Does Jamie want to show people how? If so that's good. But pretending that poor people are choosing unhealthy food so they can have designer clothes and big TVs is beyond ridiculous.

LtEveDallas Mon 02-Sep-13 13:29:12

See, I'm disappointed all over again sad. After he answered my question on the webchat, and very kindly offered to send my neice a copy of his book I was ready to believe that he would be able to see the error of his ways. That he would listen to the things thant MNers had told him, that he would see that it wasn't as cut and dried as he first assumed.

If he is still saying this crap then what was the point?

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 13:30:22

peanut you still aren't getting it.

IF you only spend 35 quid on a weekly shop then you will use up everything you buy in that week. IF you want to buy for the store cupboard then that is ON TOP of that.

You can save chocolate biscuits for next week too...

The point is the trolley load of crap at 25 quid contains enough food for a family of 4 for a week. The trolley load of lentils and friends at 25 quid doesn't contain enough food for a week....let alone having anything left over.

GrendelsMum Mon 02-Sep-13 13:32:50

I wonder whether some of the issue is that some other countries in Europe and Asia have a long tradition of cheap 'peasant cooking', which we don't have in the same way in England? And so English people tend to see a meal as needing to be a dish based around a lot of meat and some vegetables, ideally followed by a pudding, which does work out to be expensive, whereas in some other countries, a much simpler dish (e.g. lentils) would be seen as a satisfactory meal.

Crowler Mon 02-Sep-13 13:34:09

Tesco sell frozen pizzas for 60p and bags of frozen chips for £1.40. A family of 4 could eat for £2. I know there are ways to feed a family something healthier for similar but they require planning and preparation. It seems impossible to some people.

I'd probably start with a baked potato and some kind of beans or tinned fish on top or cheese. I'd add some frozen vegetables if I could.

I'd also buy a giant vat of full-fat yogurt to add some taste & fat to the potato.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 13:34:09

mini lentil soup has nowhere near as many calories. You can spread it over as many people or days as you like...it still won't have enough calories to stop you from losing weight and being hungry.

The chocolate biscuits and frozen pizzas DO have enough calories to stop you feeling hungry and losing weight.

How is this so hard to understand?

The massive iceland ready meals have about 2500 kcals in them and cost £2.50. The question is not can you make a thin lentil broth for less than that, the question is can you supply 2500 kcals of home cooked food for less than that. So can you?

I mean I make a mean cold water based desert (okay it is actually just water) that is very nearly free and can be stretched to last for a whole week!

LRDMaguliYaPomochTebeSRaboti Mon 02-Sep-13 13:36:44

I read that, because of the way England became industrialized, we have less of a tradition of peasant cooking.

But I'm not sure how much I buy that? Obviously it is partly about knowing how to cook cheap food and what to cook, but a lot of peasant cooking would be just as unhealthy for most people today, as junk food. A lot of it was designed to provide cheap, filling calories for people who worked physically incredibly hard, much harder than most people do now.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 13:37:50

mostly porridge I think...ummmyum <not>

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 13:39:20

crow bag of potatoes from tesco is £2:50. You blew the budget and we haven't looked at fish or veg yet.

PeanutButterMmm Mon 02-Sep-13 13:39:37

I don't think chocolate biscuits and lentils are something to compare tbh because neither are meals, one is a add in as in you may add a handful to a pot of something to bulk it up (hence why it lasts a month) and the other is a treat.

Ice, i wouldn't expect to get a days calorie allowance from one ingredient so i get what you are trying to say but i think we have different ways of getting calories into our bodies each day. I would worry if a parent is giving their child chocolate biscuits all day to fill them up, i mean that would give anyone a rush of sugar then a slump when that sugar high fades.

We need to educate people on what they are putting into their bodies, i mean i like a chocolate biscuit but i wouldn't thing oh it is cheaper to buy that and eat them all day then it is to fill a cupboard and make healthy meals. Some ingredients are more expensive when you buy them but if that ingredient is going to last longer and go further in the long run it works out cheaper.

Some ingredients are more expensive when you buy them but if that ingredient is going to last longer and go further in the long run it works out cheaper

It might work out cheaper in the long run but when you have a budget that is calculated down to the last penny, paying a little extra on something that will go further and work out cheaper in the long run, is not possible, there is no room to spend a little extra.

PeanutButterMmm Mon 02-Sep-13 13:43:25

I agree supermarket potatoes are bloody expensive! I never pay more than a pound for a bag of potatoes, complete with dirt on. Supermarkets make a shed load on potatoes!

I make soup for less than a fiver using all fresh veg which makes 10 good size bowls. I could water it down a lot more too but i like it really thick!

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 13:45:57

Lentil and tomato soup from a very basic stock cupboard:

2 tbsp olive oil (Vegetable oil would do though)
1 large onion, finely chopped.
1 garlic clove (Not necessary if on very tight budget)
150g/5 oz red lentils, washed
1 pint of veg stock
1 X 400 g tin chopped tomatoes
Seasoning with salt and pepper

Heat oil gently, add chopped onion and garlic and fry until soft. Add everything else, bring to boil. Simmer gently for 20 mins with lid on. Blend with stick blender. Serve with fresh bread for a basic meal.

I do this once a week and make homemade bread in breadmaker and there is no way this costs me more than £2.00 for family of four. You can make it go further by adding slightly more lentils and more water when making up veg stock.

BoffinMum Mon 02-Sep-13 13:47:35

I heard him and I thought he was quite reasonable today, and it is true, that there are groups in society who simply reject the education/healthy eating/healthcare opportunities that are on offer.

What people don't say is that it was always like that, worse even, with certain kids running dirty and barefoot and being seriously malnourished. In education reports from the 1930s to the 1960s we see descriptions of pinched faces, gloomy and filthy surroundings, habitual beatings and crammed mass schooling for these groups in society. Instead we now see people overweight and watching too much TV, but it is rare for kids to be without shoes and food entirely. Poverty looks different. But is has always been there.

There were people in the first half of the 19th century who tried to educate housewives in the way of 'home management' with the aim of developing a better type of 'national child' for the Empire. Success was limited, I think, until secondary schooling was extended after 1944, and thousands of girls were sent to secondary modern schools where they were taught to cook and clean and look after small children, instead of doing academic subjects in many cases. We also introduced the NHS and spent a lot of time and money inspecting children's health at school, offering school dental services, nit nurses, free vitamins and milk, free school meals (initially), and all sorts of other support services. Many of these services were once completely universal but have now been eroded more or less to nothing.

I firmly believe that unless we provide a kind of supercharged NHS linked up with schools, and simultaneously train girls and boys in how to run homes properly, budget and feed a family, as a routine part of schooling, then those at the lowest levels of society will always be failed as children. And that should be a problem for us all.

I note Finland provide things like free baby clothing and equipment boxes and school dinners to all, regardless of need. It can be done. I believe their infant mortality rates may be better than ours, which is a good indicator of success.

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 13:47:48

A very basic meal. hmm

JO's programme tonight has recipes all for less that £1.80 a portion! Wow!

Of course everyone can afford that... for one meal.

He knows nothing.

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 13:48:25

Ice have you actually eaten lentil soup made from scratch? It's actually really filling! Especially with a huge hunk of fresh homemade bread and a couple of slices of cheese. Yum! You can also make fresh scone very, very cheaply to dip in which is delicious.

BoffinMum Mon 02-Sep-13 13:50:01

I don't often spend £1.80 a meal per person and I have a full time job. There are six people at the table usually so it would be £10.80 per meal!!

friday16 Mon 02-Sep-13 13:50:04

"I am talking what you can actually afford to buy if you are seriously hard up"

But the people who are claiming that they don't have time to cook, or that they can't cook, aren't exclusively in extreme poverty. The same argument's advanced by people who are working, in receipt of a range on in-work benefits and (as has been pointed on in another AIBU thread about FSM) actually above the threshold for FSM. People in that position are not rich, obviously, but are certainly not in a position where they have to eke out an existence relying on the extra calories in chocolate biscuits.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 13:50:14

ahh yes I am sure anything tastes great if you add nice bread and cheese.

Thank god they are free!

GrendelsMum Mon 02-Sep-13 13:50:30

Oh yes, I take that actual peasant diets can end up very unbalanced in micronutrients, with very nasty effects.

I'm wondering about the peasant cooking because my grandparents aren't English, and my gran did a lot of the cooking in our house growing up - and yes, it does feature lentils and tinned sardines very heavily. I've been quite struck by some of the discussions about relative calorie counts and nutritional value of what I'd see as fairly staple meals.

BoffinMum Mon 02-Sep-13 13:51:22

Incidentally for lunch today we had a sweetcorn cob each (in season), two pieces of wet ham and a bit of bread and butter.

If anyone can inspire me to use the 3,000,000 monster courgettes on the mini allotment I would be very grateful.

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 13:51:32

The massive iceland ready meals have about 2500 kcals in them and cost £2.50. The question is not can you make a thin lentil broth for less than that, the question is can you supply 2500 kcals of home cooked food for less than that. So can you?

In this day and age of obesity I think lower calorie options are better but are very filling? The soup I have put on here comes out nice and thick by the way and is in no way watery.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Mon 02-Sep-13 13:51:36

Yeah, that's pretty much what I have on a fast day....

As long as you have the budget for the breadmaker, or the money to pay to put the breadmaker on or the money to put the oven on long enough to cook the loaf, money to buy the flour and the yeast.

PeanutButterMmm Mon 02-Sep-13 13:53:03

IF you only spend 35 quid on a weekly shop then you will use up everything you buy in that week. IF you want to buy for the store cupboard then that is ON TOP of that.

You can save chocolate biscuits for next week too...

The point is the trolley load of crap at 25 quid contains enough food for a family of 4 for a week. The trolley load of lentils and friends at 25 quid doesn't contain enough food for a week....let alone having anything left over.

You have misunderstood my post.

BOTH trollies contain a normal weeks shop (£30/35 was just an example figure) but one trolly had chocolate, crisps etc ON TOP of that and the other had no crap but cupboard staples ON TOP as well.

The trolly which had the crap in would be the same at the next shop because crap last 5 minutes but the other trolly would be cheaper because they wouldn't have to buy the cupboard staples at the next shop because they last weeks/months (even years.)

So in other words if some people bought less crap in their trolly like chocolate, biscuits, crisps etc they would free up some pennies to stock their cupboard so they could make healthy meals and have better diets. A chocolate biscuit diet isn't the answer here!

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 13:53:16

ice I can make organic bread for less then £1.00.
By your aggressive answers I'm assuming you are feeding you and your family ready meals then...

Boffin, Gluttony chutney for the courgettes, if you don't want them send them my way.

KoalaFace Mon 02-Sep-13 13:53:58

Exactly youthecat! The pizza and chips I mentioned was £2 to feed 4 people! £1.80 a portion isn't so cheap to a lot of people.

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 13:55:11

Binky you can often get breadmakers for free from Freecycle. Buying your own flour and yeast is a lot cheaper than buying the rubbish not very filling bread from the supermarket with god knows what in it.

Jamie won’t ever get any awards for his P.R oratory skills but he’s essentially right.

Any parent who thinks you can’t make quick healthy meals is either lazy or ignorant. Cooking pasta with veg and adding tinned fish as has been suggested here takes – I don’t know – less than ten minutes. Chicken and kidney bean salad using leftover meat from the roast the day before? Five minutes max. My parents worked f/t yet managed to cook us all food from scratch most days of the week. Takeaways were a treat back then, as well as pizza from the supermarket.

There's parents who routinely spend eye-opening amounts on gadgets and other non-essentials whilst feeding their kids crap, most of us know people like this.

I agree that our relationship with food (and money, for that matter) is complex and emotive but why is it we’re so reluctant to have a conversation about personal responsibility? I applaud Jamie for making an effort to engage with such tricky issues – at least he’s doing something and my God is it needed. I read at the weekend that 10% of all five year olds starting school this week are clinically obese – how did that happen? sad

By the way, the book isn't for people in poverty.

How do they pay to put the breadmaker on?

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 13:57:09

Totally agree with Peanut if people stopped insisting on buying the crap they could slowly but surely stock up their stock cupboard for healthy cooking. Don't spend that £1.00 of the biscuits, get something like some veg cubes instead for future meals!

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 13:57:22

*Veg stock cubes

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 13:57:47

Binky I think a cycle is about 5 p...

What when you're on a card meter?

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 13:58:58

I also have a recipe for bean burgers, again under a £1.00 for four burgers and very healthy too.

Crowler Mon 02-Sep-13 13:59:48

But the people who are claiming that they don't have time to cook, or that they can't cook, aren't exclusively in extreme poverty. The same argument's advanced by people who are working, in receipt of a range on in-work benefits and (as has been pointed on in another AIBU thread about FSM) actually above the threshold for FSM. People in that position are not rich, obviously, but are certainly not in a position where they have to eke out an existence relying on the extra calories in chocolate biscuits.

Thanks. Friday has said this a bit more clearly than I have.

Potatoes. These are always for sale at my corner shop for next to nothing. And, Ocado has a bag of 2.5 kilos on at 2GBP at the moment. That's a few days of potatoes.

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 13:59:52

Binky how about turning off your TV for half an hour to swap it to make up? Would that help?

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 14:00:15

I apologise Binky if you're TV free though...

Meglet Mon 02-Sep-13 14:03:00

I have an ancient MN veggie lasagne recipe which I make a couple of times a year, we eat some and I portion + freeze the rest. It probably comes up the same size as the giant lasagnes you get in supermarkets. But the ingredients aren't cheap, passata (around £1),packet of lasagne sheets, a big pile of peppers, courgettes and mushrooms, couple of tins of lentils, plus a hefy serving of milk + cheese for the sauce. Next time I make it I'll tot up how much it costs, the electric to cook it won't be cheap either.

A few years ago I borrowed one of those electricity consumption monitors from the library. Nearly keeled over when I turned the oven on and it went through the roof.

catinabox Mon 02-Sep-13 14:03:16

boffinmum Someone put a recipe for courgette slices on here the other day.

put courgette slices in the search, they are ace.

I have made batches and batches of them thanks to dm's courgette crop. They are frozen for DC packed lunches.

Also amazing deep fried in salty batter.

You could also donate some to your local food bank / soup kitchen.

catinabox Mon 02-Sep-13 14:03:49

Though people who are using food bank might not have facilities to cook courgettes...

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 14:04:00

It's all just so easy to do with a toddler hanging off your leg! hmm

PeanutButterMmm Mon 02-Sep-13 14:06:24

When I was growing up my mum was on a meter, struggling, had a very low income etc. We had proper meals because the difference was she knew how to cook and prioritise the budget so food and bills came first. We had some junk too of course and we never had a la carte but we didn't live off of crap food and mum didn't make every excuse she could like people do.

PeanutButterMmm Mon 02-Sep-13 14:08:43

She also didn't drive and had to travel to supermarkets by bus with small kids.

Badvoc Mon 02-Sep-13 14:09:58

Oh it's all so tiresome.
These days (I am quite old, btw) kids aren't taught to cook at school or by parents and GPS.
Then people - rich trained chefs like Jamie Oliver - moan about how people can't make a meal from dust and hairspray and blame it on laziness.
Well, for some no doubt it is. Some days (like today...I have a hospital appt at 4pm) my dc will have pizza. It's really not the end of the world - although I am sure someone will be along in a moment to tell me what a bad mother I am...
Until the govt stop giving companies the legal right to make cheap, unhealthy food and target it at children then not much will change.
Things like fruit juice and fruit are taxed as luxury items....why?
5 a day? Simply not possible on a low income or if you live in poverty.

Crowler Mon 02-Sep-13 14:10:07

So people with toddlers can't cook? I have two kids. I have cooked with toddlers.

Catinabox, do you understand that this thread relates primarily to those who, on their existing food budget, could afford to make good food for their kids but choose not to?

GrendelsMum Mon 02-Sep-13 14:11:00

My friend tells me that fresh veg tends not to go down very well at our local food bank, but that tinned veg is appreciated.

twistyfeet Mon 02-Sep-13 14:12:47

Can you put the beanburger recipe on please. I luuurve beanburgers. And if you can make it wheat free that would be fab smile
Coeliacs is a real budget killer, especially when you cant do spuds either, or lentils. Chickpeas are ok weirdly enough.

toomanycourgettes Mon 02-Sep-13 14:15:01

Does anyone remember a lovely mumsnetter called Miaow (sp?) who lived with her family in the Scottish Highlands? I haven't seen her around for ages, but she started what ended up being a massive thread following their monthly shop. She posted her shopping list, costings and menus and it was a revelation. Lots of home cooking, delicious sounding recipes and all on a tiny budget. so it can be done.

MrsDeVere Mon 02-Sep-13 14:20:59

Being frugal as a hobby
or for the purposes of writing a blog
is very different from being poor.

I have actually seen posts from people on threads saying how they 'enjoyed the challenge' of being poor for a week when they had lost their CC or some other minor inconvenience.

People are clueless.

PeanutButterMmm Mon 02-Sep-13 14:21:09

The problem with veg is supermarkets have made it so it looks pretty, all the same size and shape, wash the life out of it and Consumers pay a premiem for it.

So now they have killed of most of the green groucers and made consumer think if it is not all the same shape and size it must be "bad" but when you do find a proper green groucers or farmers market you find cheaper veg which has more flavour.

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 14:22:02

The thing is, I expect JO's £1.80 per portion budget is based on food he can get cheap in a market. Or food that he can afford to buy in bulk (making it cheaper).

Not everyone has that luxury.

I used to live somewhere with a market. The planners sold the land to Tescos.

jammiedonut Mon 02-Sep-13 14:22:10

Fwiw I budget £30 a week on food shopping, and I cook the majority of my meals from scratch. Most ingredients are bought from Iceland (or if I can get a lift, aldi). This includes meat. I might buy the odd packet of 18p super noodles, but serve them with veg and meat. We don't drink or eat sweets because we can't afford to on that budget. I spend a lot of time working out where to shop and what to buy.
I don't consider myself to be in the extremes of poverty because I can afford to buy food and supply the fuel to cook it. JO is not criticising this section of society, but people who are in my position. I could just as easily fill my basket with crap and spend the same amount, but chocolate biscuits do very little for you nutritionally, just fill a gap. it takes more time to cook and prepare a meal, but this is a worthy use of my time.
Why are people so intent on criticising anyone who suggests that more time and effort should be concentrated on the food we eat? It's not bashing the most vulnerable sections of society, but more those who have the means but simply can't be bothered.

expatinscotland Mon 02-Sep-13 14:24:52

We're on a card meter. I'm running a bread machine, the slow cooker and a yoghurt maker now, so it's hard to determine how much the bread machine will use (it's on rapid bake), but it's not 5p.

I need to turn on the oven tonight to batch bake as a friend who has ducks gave us tons of eggs, so I'm going to bake and freeze but again, that takes power.

GobbySadcase Mon 02-Sep-13 14:26:14

He needs to stop being rent a gob spouting simplistic, pigshit ignorant nonsense, and go back to doing what he is good at - being a chef, writing cook books and presenting both on tv.

Book/series about 'budget' cooking (£1.83 a portion ISN'T budget by the way) is fine. The sneering judgment isn't.

Badvoc Mon 02-Sep-13 14:42:42

That's it isn't it?
My mum is coeliac.
I am allergic to cheese and shellfish.
Ds2 is milk intolerant.
It's a real challenge to cook for all of us and moreover something all of us can eat and enjoy.
So...for example, I do meatballs with tomato sauce, pasta for ds1 and dh. Courgette ribbons for me and mum, and veg sticks and garlic bread for ds2 smile
It can be done. But it's not easy. And it's not cheap.

KoalaFace Mon 02-Sep-13 14:42:50

Ideas on how to make healthy food to rival the cheapest food from supermarkets would be amazing and really useful. I'm talking about 50p a portion though. Not £1.80.

We had a particularly tough month money wise in July. Trying to buy fruit and veg was a nightmare. Felt terrible for DS when he was asking for blueberries and I had to say no.

I was so shocked that it was so much cheaper to buy frozen pizzas, fish fingers, chips, etc than to buy ingredients and cook from scratch. Before that I thought I was saving money by making things from scratch. I was so wrong.

One meal I found to be filling and cheap was
400g tinned tomatoes 45p
500g penne pasta 29p
900g frozen peas 89p
All from Tesco.

Used the tinned tomatoes to make a sauce with the peas and then add to pasta. Fed the three of us for £1.63 with peas and pasta left over. But not exactly the healthiest or tastiest. Cooking a meal for 50p a portion is really, really tough.

Badvoc Mon 02-Sep-13 14:43:48

Yes, koala, I find it far far more expensive to bake than buy cakes and flapjacks etc.

Badvoc Mon 02-Sep-13 14:45:27

(I did make an apple and blackberry crumble on Sunday but it was with apples given to me and blackberries from my sisters garden so that was pretty cheap)

Bubbles1066 Mon 02-Sep-13 14:46:49

I've got a smart metre, the oven costs 55p an hour on it's own, add another 20p for each hob ring. If you are using 2 rings and the oven you are looking at 95p an hour, it would be much more with a card metre. Add to that boiling the kettle etc and cooking can be pricey. My TV costs 2p an hour in comparison. Cooking is not cheap so recipes need to be quick as well as having low cost ingredients for those on smaller budgets.

Nancy66 Mon 02-Sep-13 14:49:24

That's interesting Bubbles. So a roast dinner could cost about £3 to cook as well as the cost of ingredients.

cumfy Mon 02-Sep-13 14:51:39

1.5kg of lentils: £3:27 1575 kcals

1. Lentils are about £1.20/kg
2. Lentils have 3270 kcal/kg, so 1.5kg is 4900 kcal not 1575
3. So lentils are about 2725 kcal/£ compared to 3375 kcal/£ for the biscuits.

4. The primary nutritional value of lentils is protein not calories.

5. Lentils are 226g/£ of protein vs about 35g/£ for biscuits.

6. So lentils are about 6-7 times cheaper than biscuits for protein: 55g (rda), lentils are 25p (200g), biscuits £1.60 (~1kg).

PeanutButterMmm Mon 02-Sep-13 14:51:49

But someone needs to speak up about it instead of it being a taboo subject.

He is not targeting those who are spending every penny on essentials and struggling to eat. He is talking about those who could feed their families better but choose to spend it on things that are luxuries instead.

Yes people can spend their money on what they wish but when it means children are being fed poor diets with possible health problems as a consequence something needs to be said. All the excuses is shocking and shows something needs to change.

twistyfeet Mon 02-Sep-13 14:54:35

'I've got a smart metre, the oven costs 55p an hour on it's own'

Bloody hell. That is not cheap is it. I've been cutting everything. I feel like crying at that piece of information.

usualsuspect Mon 02-Sep-13 14:58:17

There's nothing wrong with fish fingers.

And my favourite quote from another JO thread on here.

Being poor is bad enough without having to eat lentils too.

usualsuspect Mon 02-Sep-13 14:59:57

And ain't nobody going to want to eat pasta in tomato sauce or veg soup every day.

LtEveDallas Mon 02-Sep-13 15:01:40

This is a C&P from my question directed to Jamie Oliver during the webchat. I was trying to show him that it's not all about the 'feckless and idle'. I've come to realise that DNeice's £54.00 is actually a lot more than other families have. I think she eats very well and very healthy - ie lots of veg soups using almost OOD veg with pasta added to bulk it up, but there are days when she can't cook, can't peel veg, can't lift the pan onto the stove etc. On those days there is nothing easier than chucking a 99p Iceland Ready Meal in the microwave...but if Jamie saw that would he would sneer at her food, sneer at her TV (my old one), sneer at her phone (my old one, a Blackberry that I hated - and she doesn't have a landline) and maybe go on Radio 4 slagging her off sad

My neice is a single parent to a teenager. She also has recently been diagnosed with reactive arthritis and cannot work, she can barely walk and there are days she physically cannot get out of bed. She has not yet been assessed by ATOS so gets no 'extra' provisions

She has a total of £54.00 per week to feed, clothe and look after her and her child. She is also about to lose 14.00 per week of that in the 'bedroom tax' unless she can find someone willing to house swap with her

She is limited to a local Co-Op small supermarket to buy her provisions from. The nearest Tesco would cost her £4.00 on the bus to town and from there another £2.00 on the bus to the supermarket. She is limited to how much she can carry (I've just bought her a shopping trolley). If she can get on the 'net she tends to do an Iceland shop as it is the only place that will deliver, free, to where she lives. Otherwise she shops on the day, every day

to give you an idea of how she suffers, until I bought her the shopping trolley her 'sunday lunch' shop took her 3 journeys - 1 for the cheap and nasty pumped full of water value chicken, 1 for the veg and 1 for the potatoes, because she couldn't carry it all at once

The obvious answer to a lot of the above is that my Great Neice should be taking more responsibility and helping her mum. Well yes, she should, I won't argue with that, but right now she doesn't and my neice doesn't have the strength to push her. I hope I can make a difference there, and soon.

friday16 Mon 02-Sep-13 15:09:25

"How do they pay to put the breadmaker on?"

I measured mine with a clamp ammeter last year. I think I came to the conclusion it cost 8p to run for a standard bake. YMMV, as the Americans might say.

£54, bloody hell, I knew it was low but that low. I was on benefits 18years ago, income support, IIRC I received about £55, from that each week I paid, £5 gas, £5 electricity, £1 TV stamp, I then paid £2 return bus fare to go shopping. I spent approximately £30 each week on me and my daughter for food leaving a little over for emergencies or if I needed extra bread and milk, or needed to use the bus, I also had to save a little each week so I could afford to buy something for her birthday and Christmas. Everything I cooked was from scratch, except the kievs and noodles treat.

catinabox Mon 02-Sep-13 15:12:45

Lteve how did Jamie Oliver respond?

MrsDeVere Mon 02-Sep-13 15:13:02

I don't think he is being brave speaking up about 'it'

I think 'it' is a fecking distraction.

I am willing to bet their are far more parents going without to feed their kids than there are buying tvs so they can give their kids crap to eat.

Its not only poor children who are overweight. It is not just the underclasses who eat poorly, drink too much alcohol and ingest too much fat and salt.

The annoying, irritating and maddening thing about JO is that he is talking crap, the sort of thing you hear in the pub, but he is doing it from a very high platform.

I don't think people are annoyed because their choices are being challenged by him. They are annoyed because he is not being accurate, he is making assumptions and he is doing it to SELL STUFF.

If he didn't have a book to sell he wouldn't have said it, he would't be all over the tv and radio and we wouldn't have yet another over privileged rich boy telling The Poor they are Doing it Wrong.

ExcuseTypos Mon 02-Sep-13 15:13:03

LtEve did you hear JO on radio 4 today?

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 15:18:26

That's the thing though, Binky. It hasn't really increased that much in 18 years but the cost of fuel and food has. And bus fares for that matter.

What you could buy with £30 18 years ago would be a decent amount of fresh food.

JO needs to start pressurising the government and supermarkets to bring down the cost of fresh, local produce.

Faithless12 Mon 02-Sep-13 15:18:44

friday16- I don't have an issue with cooking oily fish, or any fish. How you got I won't cook or feed fish to my DS from me saying I don't count sardines on toast a healthy meal.

Also my DS eats whatever is put in front of him, he told me he didn't like his dinner yesterday (first time ever) but he sat and ate it as I wasn't going to make something else.

usualsuspect Mon 02-Sep-13 15:21:45

Yep,spot on MrsDV.

He's not telling the wealthy to stop eating crap.

Just the ' poor'

He's an idiot without a clue ,with a book to sell.

usualsuspect Mon 02-Sep-13 15:23:06

Sardines on toast is a perfectly healthy meal.

You that's the point I was trying to make, 18years ago I could feed us very very well, now it would be a struggle, £5 gas and electricity would not see us through the week, and £30 in food would not buy the same now as it did then. I was paying 25p for a pound of potatoes in those days, now its at least a quid.

Over 18years the money hasn't increased to keep up with the increase in living costs.

Retroformica Mon 02-Sep-13 15:24:35

ICE. Not all calories are equal. 10 calories of crap food hold few vitamins and minerals. Its 10 calories if processed wheat, sugar and fat. While 10 calories of filling delicious lentil soup hold lots vitamins and minerals to meet our bodies needs. Lentil soup can be a complete meal in itself.

My recipe is one onion, 3 celery sticks, some stock, cup of red lentils. Coriander and curry powder can also be added as an extra if you like.

ubik Mon 02-Sep-13 15:27:35

Middle class people eat crap too. There's nothing great about stuffing your face with Camembert, French loaves. Red wine, posh ice cream, pasta slathered inJamie's olive oil.
Costing the NHS a flipping fortune with gout, type 2 diabetes etc

Jamie diesn't seem bothered about reforming unhealthy mc people - because they are his customers.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Mon 02-Sep-13 15:27:51

Applauds MrsDeV, as so often...

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 15:30:34

The thing is, if I was rich, I am pretty sure I would eat a whole lot better than I do.

I muddle through though grin

goodasitgets Mon 02-Sep-13 15:31:39

I get the using gas/electric to cook, I do. But I live near a pretty deprived area, in the middle of which is a shop. Every day I go in to grab reduced stuff, and there is consistently fresh stuff there that the staff have said they can't give away
I'm talking 25p for 4 chicken breasts, hummus for 5p, grapes 10p, innocent smoothies 20p. There's never any ready meals/puddings/treats reduced because they sell that stuff
I'm always bemused that nobody seemingly wants this cheap, usually healthy fresh food

usualsuspect Mon 02-Sep-13 15:32:24

See I can't really see the difference between a ready meal from Iceland and one with JO face on from Sainburuys.

I laughed when I saw his smug face on a box of fish fingers.

Good where is this shop? 25p for 4 chicken breasts, my freezer needs stocking up.

Retroformica Mon 02-Sep-13 15:34:38

Also a huge percentage of kids/adults are overweight and really shouldn't be eating high calorie biscuits/crisps/sweet treats anyway for health reasons

usualsuspect Mon 02-Sep-13 15:35:35

The reduced fresh meat in my co op, middle of a council estate, gets snapped up very quickly.

As does the reduced veg.

ON a lighter note, I had a dream once that I snogged the face off JO, I have no idea why, I think I must have been going through a very traumatic time in my life, if I wasn't before I certainly was when I woke up.

Retroformica Mon 02-Sep-13 15:37:00

The coop has great reductions in my city. I buy the reduced meats and freeze. The broccoli etc is usually reduced to 25p

LtEveDallas Mon 02-Sep-13 15:37:29

catinabox, he was very polite, and confirmed that the average cost of meals in his book was £1.32 for meals and lunches, not breakfasts. He has also sent my neice a copy of his book, which was very decent of him. I had specifically asked him if my neice would be able to feed herself and her DD using only meals in his book.

The reason I am disappointed all over again is that he actually said he could see the challenges my niece faced and wished her well etc - but if he has then gone on R4 and repeated the guff that was printed in the newpapers last week (designer clothes, electronic gadgets, plasma TVs etc), then he obviously didn't listen to what people were saying. I really did think that the webchat would give him pause to think about what he was saying.

I repeat what I said before too - I think the marketing of his book is wrong. He should have aimed it at the 'squeezed middle', people that are feeling the pinch right now and needing to save 'a bit' on their shopping, not the actual poor, that still can't fecking afford it. If he had, would he be slagging off their flat screens? I doubt it.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Mon 02-Sep-13 15:37:40

Cheeky arse even plugged his own fishfingers on WH today...

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 15:40:13

That's an excellent point, LTEve. It really should be aimed at those more well off who are feeling the pinch.

usualsuspect Mon 02-Sep-13 15:42:12

It is obviously aimed at them, but he doesn't want to alienate his target market by calling them all fat lazy sods with big TV's.

So he jumps on the poor bashing band wagon to get some publicity.

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 15:42:25

Here's the recipe for the bean burgers for 9p each:
agirlcalledjack.com/2013/04/06/carrot-cumin-kidney-bean-burger-9p/
The blog might be useful for all the people making excuses on here for eating cr*p food because 'they have no choice'
agirlcalledjack.com/

She has fed her and her kid for £10 a week healthy made from scratch food because she's had too and then again to demonstrate for purposes of her blog.
PLEASE TAKE A LOOK.
HEALTHY EATING AT PROPER BUDGET PRICES CAN BE DONE FOR PENCE PER PORTION.

usualsuspect Mon 02-Sep-13 15:46:02

What excuses do ' not poor' people have for eating crap food then?

ExcuseTypos Mon 02-Sep-13 15:46:55

Again you're misrepresenting what he actually said TheOrigional.
He was asked about his FishFingers, he said he hadn't gone on the programme to talk about them, but if he was asked to, he would. He didn't go on and just blatantly start advertising his products.

He also said that his dc ate FishFingers and there is nothing wrong with them.

LTEve, I didn't think you'd listened to the programme because again he didn't start 'slagging off' people like your neice.

He did admit he shouldn't have spoken about the women with the big TV. He said he know realised that the only way to get a TV was to have one on credit and these companies only sold large ones. So I think the web chat/bad press he got last week has taught him something.

friday16 Mon 02-Sep-13 15:47:31

And of course, if JO really wanted to put the cat amongst the pigeons he might ponder why two fairly good correlates of deprivation are (a) poor diet and (b) smoking, and ask if people spent on food what they spend on cigarettes both of those problems might improve. It's these days accepted as an axiom of public health policy that smoking is inevitable amongst people on low incomes, which does seem to rather beg the question of why.

ExcuseTypos Mon 02-Sep-13 15:49:47

know now

I meant to say earlier that ‘any parent who thinks you can’t make quick healthy meals on a limited budget is either lazy or ignorant’.

And I agree with him about the work ethic of our teenagers/people in their 20’s, though obviously it’s not all of them. Mummies phoning up on behalf of their kids in their 20’s saying they can’t come in because they’re so tired from working a 48 hour week. It’d be funny if it wasn’t so pathetic.

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 15:52:42

friday I thought about the cigarette issue earlier....hmm
It seems like cigarettes are more 'essential' then serving up healthy food for the family. hmm

usualsuspect Mon 02-Sep-13 15:53:55

People have been saying that about teenagers/young people since forever.

I expect the cavemen complained about their lazy arsed teenagers.

goodasitgets Mon 02-Sep-13 15:55:42

usual - how weird! Mine is a co op too. Maybe it's just location differences?
Waitrose has amazing reductions but everyone has cottoned on now. I still have 9p sausages in the freezer grin

AmandaHoldenmigroin Mon 02-Sep-13 15:55:47

I like Jamie Oliver and don't take what he says too seriously. he has been overexposed and that does lead to resentment. on the plus side, it does give him bags more cash. So I guess that as the trade off you make if you are in his position.

catinabox Mon 02-Sep-13 15:56:41

That's good Lteve but a huge shame that he mentioned these points this morning because he ought to have learned something.

I honestly don't believe that many people in this country understand the depth and extent of poverty in this country.

Some people eat crap because they are making poor lifestyle choices, other people are poor. Poverty isn't just about economics, long term poverty has all sorts of consequences.

Girl called Jack is great. minamalistmum she is different to someone who is experiencing long term poverty. Yes, i agree that it demonstrates that it CAN be done but at the same time, it's a huge leap to expect someone with a background of long term poverty to do this.

LtEveDallas Mon 02-Sep-13 15:57:26

LTEve, I didn't think you'd listened to the programme because again he didn't start 'slagging off' people like your neice

No you are right excusetypos, I didn't listen to it (I don't listen/watch anything on the BBC), I was going on what previous posters said on this thread, people that did listen. That's why I was so upset with him.

If you are now saying that he didn't mention designer clothes and electronic gadgets in the context that 'they' were buying those rather than feeding their children, then I apologise, because that is what has disturbed me. I'd be very happy if that is the case.

Faithless12 Mon 02-Sep-13 15:57:52

MinimalistMommi - Her burgers don't cost 9p, they cost much more if you include the coriander. Also she is counting per burger what else do you put with that? I've yet to find her meal plan for her £10 week.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 15:58:41

mini that soup you listed would cost about £1.50 from tescos.

But it only has about 300 calories in it. If you split that between 4 then it is less than 5% of your daily intake.

It has 8 times less calories than the ready meal I listed, and hence represents extremely poor value for money in comparison.

My guess is that your family are filling up on bread and cheese at this meal....which aren't free...and in fact are probably more expensive than the soup.

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 15:58:51

So are only the middle classes allowed to be addicted to nicotine? hmm

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 15:59:32

lentils were £1.09 from tescos. biscuits were also tescos.

I am sure you can buy both lentils and biscuits cheaper if you try. It won't change the basic point that lentils are more expensive than biscuits.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 15:59:44

sorry £1.09 for 500g

Faithless12 Mon 02-Sep-13 15:59:53

I take the not finding the £10 meal plan back, however it's not for a week it's for 5 days...

Pasta with tinned mushy peas and cheese, that's fibre, fat and salt, not the healthiest meal.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 16:02:02

what 10 pound plan is this? 5 days for how many people?

Faithless12 Mon 02-Sep-13 16:04:36

agirlcalledjack.com/2013/03/07/living-below-the-line-5-day-meal-plan-for-2/

For those that want to read it. 1) We can't have soya and I wouldn't even if we could. 2) Some of the ingredients for the meals aren't included in the list.

ExcuseTypos Mon 02-Sep-13 16:05:08

LtEve, he didn't mention designer clothes and he did apologise over his ignorance about large Tvs

He did mention that he didn't understand why children not being fed healthy food, had iPhones.

I don't think he was slagging anyone off. He was answering the questions posed by the interviewer.

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 16:07:00

I'm taking it that this £10 meal plan also uses a lot of store cupboard ingredients?

Owllady Mon 02-Sep-13 16:10:36

seriously, are all poor people wearing designer gear? because the town near where I live I don't see many people wearing designer gear (obviously I don't have any idea the size of their tv's)

and that's the issue I have with these JO statements. They are blanket statements based on stereotypes, they are not based on an average poor person

I think there is a different issue between saying 'lets show everyone how to cook cheaper nutritious meals and saying 'those poor people who can't cook with their big tvs' and tbh i thought he apologised for that statement on mn last week confused which on a personal level makes him a bit two faced confused

twistyfeet Mon 02-Sep-13 16:10:42

Anyone know how the beanburger would stick together without flour?

Owllady Mon 02-Sep-13 16:11:12

so he didn't mention designer clothes then? confused

cushtie335 Mon 02-Sep-13 16:11:24

He seems like a really nice man with a good heart who cannot understand why people don't perceive food and family cooking the same way he does.

He clearly feels very passionately about what he believes in and cannot fathom how everyone else doesn't feel the same as he does.

And although he's passionate, he's not terribly articulate or "clever" which lands him in hot water when he presents as condescending and patronising to the very people he's trying to "convert".

Owllady Mon 02-Sep-13 16:11:57

an egg?

twistyfeet Mon 02-Sep-13 16:12:31

although 'A girl called Jack' clearly isnt using TEsco value kidney beans. You could boil those fuckers for 24 hours and they'd still be rock hard marbles!

ExcuseTypos Mon 02-Sep-13 16:15:00

No it doesn't include any store cupboard items Youcat.

It's for 2 people for 5 days. So for a family of 4 that would cost £20 for 5 days, which would work out at £120 for a month I think
That's pretty good, if you're really are on a very low budget.

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 16:16:15

faith she has a pot of coriander growing on her windowsill. Growing herbs can usually be bought for about £1.00 and can be kept alive for weeks.

They're beautiful in a homemade bread bun, which is people don't have a bread machine, bread can easily be made by hand. Made from scratch bread is alot cheaper than bakeries/supermarket.

ExcuseTypos Mon 02-Sep-13 16:17:30

No, he didn't mention designer clothes today iirc Owllady.

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 16:17:46

twisty I just place piles of the mixture onto a greased tray and I bake rather than fry for about 20 mins at 200 degrees. I then use a fish slice to careful pick them up and place inside split roll. I like to make it with basil rather than coriander.

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 16:19:35

What if you haven't got a spare £1 a week to buy pots of herbs?

What if your flat is manky with mildew and mould? Not really conducive to growing your own herbs really is it?

Homemade bread is great, if you have an oven and can afford to use it.

MOTU Mon 02-Sep-13 16:20:10

*"I listened to him too and I'm sort of 50/50.
It's great telling people how cooking from scratch is cheaper and healthier, but if the DCs refuse to eat your healthy meals, then it just gets thrown away.
I am making a Shep Pie today from scratch. I know that my lot will pull faces, push it round the plate then leave the majority of it.
So I will end up wasting money when I could have made burger and chips and watched them scoff the lot." *

This is because your children have the luxury of knowing there will always be food, and have probably been well fed breakfast and dinner. Children get hungry, if homemade meals are all that's available they will eat them. I have proved this when looking after "fussy" children over and over again. My daughter is the opposite of normal, rejects processed food, wants homemade, but you know? Sometimes that's all that's available (like when we're out all day) and even if she ends up skipping lunch, she'll eat what she's given by dinner time! People are really harsh about anyone daring to make judgements about a life they haven't personally lived-doesn't mean they don't have the measure of it-I know I personally put food buying at the top of our priority list before budgeting for anything else and that's all he is suggesting people with limited means do.

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 16:21:44

I've just popped a pot of lentil and tomato soup on the stove and it literally took five minutes to prepare. grin
Tomorrow night it will be what I consider a more expensive meal, a made from scratch cheesy pasta bake with fresh veg on the side. Eating healthy doesn't have to be difficult. But it is more effort then pealing of some plastic and sticking it in the microwave. But I guess it comes down to everyday choices of what's important.

ArtisanLentilWeaver Mon 02-Sep-13 16:22:05

I suspect JO's people would be reading this - if so, why does Jamie not make an easy to follow budget meal programme aimed for tea time? Even children's tv or something?

I like what he tried in the USA and it may have helped many. Yes, he has become wealthy through his work and yes, he is passionate but I think people ought to give him a chance if the costs and instructions are realistic.

That said, he also must realise how many people are now reliant on food banks and who do not have extra cash for fancy equipment or even electricity/ gas for cooking. Would he care to live like that for a month and balance out a budget for good food?

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 16:23:10

you then you leave the herbs out or choose to pop the pack of biscuits down and pick up the pot of herbs instead.

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 16:27:00

I haven't mentioned biscuits. hmm

Crowler Mon 02-Sep-13 16:27:13

What if you haven't got a spare £1 a week to buy pots of herbs?

What if your flat is manky with mildew and mould? Not really conducive to growing your own herbs really is it?

I think you're not interested in listening to anyone on this thread.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 16:28:06

mini you are doing it again. If you exchange the biscuits (good whack of calories) for herbs (essentially no calories) you are consigning you to hunger.

friday16 Mon 02-Sep-13 16:28:36

"So are only the middle classes allowed to be addicted to nicotine? "

If they can afford it and aren't, therefore, feeding their children crap. Same as Porsches and holidays in Spain.

The problem I have with a lot of the discussion about JO is that it's a sort of "ah, what about blind people with no hands who live on top of the London Eye: they find cooking really hard, don't they?" production of edge cases as though they disprove the central point. Poor diet is not the preserve of those living in absolute poverty. Playing poverty top trumps, in the manner of Monty Python's Yorkshiremen, doesn't address the point that plenty of people are still managing to eat a bad diet on a hundred quid a week of supermarket bills.

twistyfeet Mon 02-Sep-13 16:28:47

I'm making them now minimalist, with my last carrot and anion. Ive not been able to get to the shops for weeks cos of the school holidays so we are down to tins!

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 16:29:00

mini your much vaunted lentil soup is about 80 kcal per portion.

That isn't going to keep the hunger at bay long!

Crowler Mon 02-Sep-13 16:30:07

I posted that too soon- because you don't buy a pot a week, they grow.
The roadblocks you throw up seem overwhelmingly cultural rather than logistical or financial.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 16:30:23

mini your lentil soup has less calories than a cuppa soup!

ubik Mon 02-Sep-13 16:32:58

Real budget cooking is not a runner for Jamie because his target demographic is people with enough money to shop in sainsbury's/buy his book.

Supermarkets are not interested in people spending less in their shops, they are not interested in advertising in the breaks between Jamie fannying about with budget lentils/kidney beans and tinned mushy peas from the Spar.

He is a marketing creation aimed at making money from gullible consumers. It's much safer to criticise people on low incomes because they are not his market. He is not about to tell better off people to stop slathering olive oil on their mountains of pasta

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 16:32:59

mini or one digestive biscuit

Owllady Mon 02-Sep-13 16:33:08

I apologise for my earlier post then if he didn't mention designer clothes

My lot love home made cottage pie but it takes 2 hours to make and cook (unless you do it the mince and pots and under the grill way but it's not as nice) and it costs quite a lot to make imo

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 16:33:12

My poor belly! grin

Yes, I am listening.

But, for some people, affording and cooking decent food that the whole family will eat (so not getting thrown away), is not that simple.

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 16:33:17

ice I think you haven't learn to think long term about food (well into next week) and need some help about building up ingredients so you can actually put together a meal hmm

It's not all about calories, if something is filling and healthy then that's whats important surely?!

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 16:34:36

The recipes made by agirlcalledjack are more expensive than buying ready made crap also. Certainly the 10 pound meal plan is.

friday16 Mon 02-Sep-13 16:35:00

"That said, he also must realise how many people are now reliant on food banks"

How many, indeed? If you read http://www.trusselltrust.org/real-stories then all the cases they cite are of temporary crisis. Which is terrible, and the Trussell Trust do excellent work. But all the cases they cite are about temporary disruption of benefit, not people in receipt of stable benefit or tax credits. For example, the case of the woman who had no food because all the benefits were in her husband's name and he'd left: you could double or triple benefit rates, and she would be in the same problem. A guy with PTSD who didn't want to claim benefits. An alcoholic rough sleeper. A shocking case of a care leaver falling through the cracks. Terrible cases, each, and deserving of our help and sympathy. But not examples of people in receipt of regular in- or out-of-work benefits being able to feed themselves without the help of a foodbank.

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 16:35:09

twisty do you have any ketchup? My DD likes a little ketchup on top of hers....yum!! I'm making them this week. My eight year old DD will eat them but my five year old won't. I'm persevering though!

Faithless12 Mon 02-Sep-13 16:35:20

Honestly I buy the more expensive packets of fresh herbs because our budget isn't that tight and we don't have the space for pots or even a herb garden even though I'd love one. It's not just about being time or money poor but sometimes space poor.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 16:35:21

mini you haven't thought about actually having to eat within a very tight budget. Sure we would all eat fresh fruit and veg lovingly prepared if we could afford it

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 16:36:07

You fussy eaters definitely make it challenging, my five year old is fussy but she is getting lots better.

friday16 Mon 02-Sep-13 16:36:12

"But, for some people, affording and cooking decent food that the whole family will eat (so not getting thrown away), is not that simple."

Moral: pandering to fussy eaters may be easier in the short term, but you'll regret it later.

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 16:36:39

These aren't my circumstances btw. I am trying out some empathy though.

I am lucky to have well stocked cupboards. Not everyone has. Not everyone can afford to. A pound a week might be nothing to you but it will be to someone on the bones of their arse.

People have been saying that about teenagers/young people since forever.

I realise that but given all the NEET's around now as well as the thousands of immigrants, I'd say it's an important issue.

Nancy66 Mon 02-Sep-13 16:36:52

You can buy frozen herbs and spices.

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 16:37:21

I must have just pandered to my severely autistic and food phobic ds then? hmm

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 16:37:38

Affording and cooking decent food is not possible for all income brackets.

LtEveDallas Mon 02-Sep-13 16:37:46

Thank you ExcuseTypos. I am very happy in that case that he apologised for the TV remark, and that he didn't mention designer clothes. Although why replace 'Plasma TV' with 'iPhone' if he did actually listen and take on board what MNers had said? Would he judge my Niece for her sparkly Blackberry? - it was top of the range when she got it, from me, for free. Maybe those children he has seen with iPhones are in the same boat.

Oh, I don't know. I just know that he has made me feel uncomfortable. I used to really like him, thought his programmes were ace - and I have most of his books. Now, I'm simply disappointed and feel annoyed with myself for championing him all these years.

I look forward to giving his book to my neice though, and hope she can make good use of it.

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 16:37:54

faith my basil is stuck on my kitchen windowsill, I've had it for the whole summer now. It means I can keep an eye on it so I don't kill it...blush

ExcuseTypos Mon 02-Sep-13 16:37:57

Ice so you are saying you can feed 2 people, 3 meals a day, for 5 days for less than £10, using ready meals?

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 16:38:54

Nancy, where will you keep these frozen herbs if you have a very small freezer compartment?

JO's new series relies on people already having well stocked cupboards and a good amount of kitchen equipment, as well as expensive white goods.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 16:39:02

Of course!

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 16:39:02

I am lucky to have well stocked cupboards. Not everyone has. Not everyone can afford to. A pound a week might be nothing to you but it will be to someone on the bones of their arse.

you but what else are they buying in the week? Now that would be interesting.

PeanutButterMmm Mon 02-Sep-13 16:39:30

Icebeing i think you are very confused about calories and without meaning to sound patronising need to read more into the difference between "good" and "bad" calories and their effects. Some calories in foods such as biscuits for instance give you a short lived boost in blood sugar levels then crashes just as quick making you hungry again very quickly. Other foods such as proteins for instance maybe less in calories but higher in vitimins and other goodness and release energy more slowly meaning you will be fuller for longer.

Your arguement about more calories being better no matter what food it is is not correct because there are many different factors to take into account also. Chocolate biscuits maybe higher in calories but they will fill you up for a very short time if that is your purpose of eating them (to just fill your tummy) and i would suggest looking at other food groups which would fill you up for longer.

Owllady Mon 02-Sep-13 16:40:16

I don't know, i had a child who would eat textures, gagged on food and was an absolute nightmare, it turned out she had special needs (quite serious ones) so i don't think it's that simple. She will eat anything now though but we got help early on from a specialist dietitian who would make jamie olivers toes curl quite frankly as she said let her eat pies and chocolate iof it's the only thing she will eat shock grin but letting her just eat meant we had a child who was no longer malnourished and didn't have the perfect diet but was on the way to eating rather than gagging and eventually she began to try everything and now is a complete glutton tbh, but we were lucky we had intervention earlier.

My youngest is dead fussy though, I have to some degree let him get on with it, but now he is 6 he is eating a lot better (though I still think he is odd about food)

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 16:40:31

We calculated you can feed a family of 4 for 25 quid a week on ready made crap (mostly horrid fish fingers, oven fry and a lot of value bread and jam, but also pies and ready made pizza etc.)

and that is from tesco. You can go cheaper if you get deals from iceland.

Owllady Mon 02-Sep-13 16:41:00

who wouldn't eat textures, i really should preview

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 16:41:30

I don't have a separate freezer, just an icebox our cottage is approx 500 sq ft for our family of four. I manage to have frozen chopped onion, space for freezing children made from scratch filled rolls for packed lunches etc and frozen sweetcorn and peas.

Stop the excuses. IT CAN BE DONE.

ExcuseTypos Mon 02-Sep-13 16:42:10

LtEve, yes I hope your niece finds the book helpful too.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 16:42:35

peanut patronising much? Dear lord. You can't wrap your head around the fundamental message that some people HAVE to focus on just calories because they will go hungry otherwise and don't have the luxury of eating a nutritous diet.

This is the whole jeffing point. Some people cannot afford to eat a balanced diet. FACT.

Of course if you can afford vegetables you don't eat jam on toast all week. but what if you can't?????

Nancy66 Mon 02-Sep-13 16:43:43

You - I think some of the excuses you are coming up with are a bit daft.

There will ALWAYS be a reason to not do something.

So far we've had:

30 mins too far too walk to shop
can't cook with toddlers
no room in freezer for herbs
can't carry heavy bags
can't go out in rain

There are lots of reasons to not send your kids to school

uniform too expensive
have to get up really early
have to walk too far
kids hate it

....eventually it comes down to making the right choices

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 16:44:07

You freeze children! grin

Yes, it can be done - but not by everyone.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 16:44:58

mini yeah and your nutritious soup that fills up your family for the same price as a 1.5 kilo ready meal, actually turns out to be an 80 kcal snack.

I don't think it helps when people say oh yeah you can cook nice stuff for less when YOU CANT.

You can cook nice stuff cheaply...for around 35-40 quid a week. Noone disputes that.

But you cannot beat the ready made crap for price.

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 16:46:34

Of course 30 minutes isn't too far to walk to the shops but try walking back again with a week's worth of shopping. Then try doing it every week, in all weathers.

I have a medium sized freezer. I have no room for herbs in there at the moment as it is full.

Why is it daft if it is someone else's reality?

misskatamari Mon 02-Sep-13 16:46:56

I just hate him as he told me to make pizza dough without a bowl. It wasn't a fun afternoon!

twistyfeet Mon 02-Sep-13 16:47:36

Well, they turned out pretty good and stuck together even without the flour. ds2 (18, 6 foot tall and weighs 8 stone 7) ate all four, pronounced them a decent 'snack' and asked whats for dinner.

Only 3 weeks till he buggers off to university and cant bankrupt himself with his hollow legs grin

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 16:48:29

To home cook for a family of 4 for a week you need:

£35 quid to spend on food alone
access to an oven and hob, pots pans, kettle etc.
a fridge and a freezer
enough money for the electricity/gas used by above.
kids without severe SEN.
knowledge of basic cooking skills.

Most people have everything on that list.

Some people don't.

I would imagine the £35 is the clincher in a lot of cases. Hence people being to poor to eat well.

ExcuseTypos Mon 02-Sep-13 16:48:42

ICE, the GirlcalledJack meal plan comes to £20 for a family of 4 for five days. So a week would be £28 for 4 people.

That's healthy, homemade food and includes lunches and breakfasts.

So comparing it to your £25 'crap' Iceland food and saying it's much more expensive isn't really correct is it?

PoppyAmex Mon 02-Sep-13 16:53:21

Forrin person alert

I don't understand how countries in which the standard of living is significantly lower than the UK's manage to feed their children nutritionally sound meals and it seems like an impossible mission here.

I really don't want to come across as unsympathetic and I know there are people who would struggle to get to a supermarket, or have disabilities etc. but these AREN'T THE MAJORITY.

The sheer amount of excuses is mind boggling - are you actually convinced that the vast majority of British citizens have insurmountable obstacles to obtaining and learning how to cook a basic meal?

How the hell do you think people in my country (and many others) working full-time in a shit economy, paying the same price for food as you but earning less and without your privileges/your safety net/etc. manage and you don't?

twistyfeet Mon 02-Sep-13 16:55:02

Nancy, some excuses are valid. Food allergies are real, for example. I have coeliacs and not being able to buy cheap bread and pasta is a bastard on the £40 a week budget I have for the 5 of us (2 of whom are over 18 so no CTC or CB but as students they are skint enough so give me £10 a week towards food/electrcity/phone etc when they are home for 3 months). The other one is on the ketogenic diet so its all butter and double cream.
We have to go on the bus and some weeks its a pig so we end up at the expensive local shop and the boys live off cheapo pizza. Adult children eat like horses and shop pizza (they will eat one each) will get 2000 calories into them quickly. ds2 will put away 4000 calories a day easily. He weighs 8 stone 7.
It will be easier when they clear off again in a few weeks (but they keep coming back! Weekly!) as I'm happy with raw cabbage, carrots, mayo and fruit. DH loves pasta and cheese. We keep hens so eggs are free. DH makes jam from ext doors tree that hangs over our fence that does the whole year so its not like we dont try. But cheap and easy calories fill up teenagers.
And no, we dont have a plasma TV

JO's new series relies on people already having well stocked cupboards and a good amount of kitchen equipment, as well as expensive white goods.

Really? You've had a preview of the show, I take it? In the book he talks about what he has in his cupboards and fridge as a guide. It's not meant to be prescriptive.

If people are too ignorant or lazy to have cheap STAPLES all the time then that's a great shame.

Excuses, excuses, excuses.

Darkesteyes Mon 02-Sep-13 16:55:57

I was on the webchat last week. Hes basically replaced the big screen tellies with Iphones.

To the poster who said "His heart is in the right place. I very much doubt you would be saying that if the word poor had been substitited with the word black.

Actor David Threlfall (Frank Gallagher in Shameless which Jamie obviously thinks is a documentary) said that poor bashing is social racism and i agree with him.

ExcuseTypos Mon 02-Sep-13 16:56:01

A very good question Poppy

nancy you forgot one excuse from earlier in the thread. Someone said they wouldn't even try to cook from scratch unless they could afford a cleanerconfused

Callani Mon 02-Sep-13 16:57:01

I think Jamie's heart is mostly in the right place but what REALLY annoys me is that he starts every argument against people who don't eat properly by
a) Suggesting that all poor people eat takeaways each night
b) Claiming that you can cook food from scratch for cheaper than frozen ready meals.

Now a) I'm totally on side with him that if you DO eat takeaways every night, and you do feed your children crisps for breakfast and you do put cola in your baby's bottle then you need to sort out your priorities BUT let's not pretend that all poor people are thickos that do this because that is not true, it's not helpful and it's going to alienate the very people you claim you want to help.

And b) you cannot make food from scratch for cheaper than you can buy frozen ready meals. Believe me, I tried to prove that you could on another thread here and I could not feed a family of four with home made meals for under £35 a week, no matter how many corners I cut. Now £35 is not bad, but when you can buy £2 frozen lasagnes and cottage pies, your weekly shop drops to £23 easily - a whole third cheaper.

Food poverty in the UK is a very complex issue and one that I think that Jamie is right to highlight but the debate does not benefit from pretending that everyone who eats badly is choosing to do so for no reason.

Nancy66 Mon 02-Sep-13 16:57:25

You - so you go several times a week and when the weather is really shocking you don't go.

I have packets of herbs that are the size and thickness of an envelope - pretty sure they'd slide into most freezers now matter how packed they are.

I appreciate you're playing devil's advocate but a lot of 'I can't because...' excuses are easily solved.

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 16:57:59

So it is 'ignorant and lazy' not to be able to afford to have staples in your cupboard?

Lovely hmm

twistyfeet Mon 02-Sep-13 16:59:28

several times a week? With a £4 bus fare each time. Are you joking? How many families could do that?
Hands up.

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 16:59:35

So what do you eat if you can't get there? What if you are ill? What if you are trying to juggle kids/part time work and everything else?

Darkesteyes Mon 02-Sep-13 16:59:36

Poppy you need to read what i said about Italy on that webchat I think im more qualified to comment on that than most having a mother who is Italian and STILL working full time in bad health at the age of 77 due to a paralysing fear of poverty It is probably going to kill her so FFS can we please stop fucking romanticising poverty in the Med.

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 17:01:37

I'm really not putting up imaginary obstacles here. These are real circumstances for some people.

A bit of compassion and empathy goes a long way.

And now I shall go and cook my tea... from scratch.

Darkesteyes Mon 02-Sep-13 17:02:32

And what if you miss the phone call when your employer has asked you to come in on your zero hours contract while you are traipsing back and forth.

If they're not on the breadline, then yes You, they're ignorant or lazy.

friday16 Mon 02-Sep-13 17:03:36

"Believe me, I tried to prove that you could on another thread here and I could not feed a family of four with home made meals for under £35 a week,"

That's a family of four in receipt of, say, HB, tax credits, two loads of child benefit? Or HB, JSA/IA and two loads of child benefit? None of these are kings' ransoms, but I've not seen it explained just how many people are at a point where they can't afford £9 per head, and why. Which is necessary to understand just how big the problem is, and what should be done to address it.

MOTU Mon 02-Sep-13 17:03:59

*"Add message | Report | Message poster catinabox Mon 02-Sep-13 12:46:49
But are there really people who live on estates that are so isolated that they don't have a supermarket within a 30 minute walk? that there's not a bus they can catch to a shopping centre or market?

Yes there are. And if there was a supermarket within a 30 minute walk how practical would it be for a parent with young children to make this trip and carry a load of heavy stuff home? Yes possible but bloody demoralising in the rain when people are driving past in their nice warm cars. I wouldn't want to face that regularly."*

I do face this regularly. We are on a low/medium income I guess but are paying off debt so live to a very tight budget-I would say very similar to non working benefits claimant based on friends incomes. Yes sometimes it's annoying/stressful and sometimes when I'm tired/ill/busy then we might eat very simple meals all week like egg Nd tomatoes on toast or pasta and plain tomato sauce but its how we survive without eating crap or getting further into debt. I walk with a buggy to three different shops to maximise offers - I think of it as my cardio!

twistyfeet Mon 02-Sep-13 17:04:49

Personally I have no issue with my family's diet. A mix (for the teenagers) of shop pizza/oven chips and home cooked. The are healthy, run, do weights and are, if anything, underweight despite the 4000 calories a day. They dont eat fast food, drink fizzy drinks and drink too much booze. They both know how to cook.
I do have a teeny judge at obese toddlers and coke in bottles but really cant be arsed most of the time given I dont know home circumstances. I wish JO would use his influence to do something about school meals and make them all free and bring back cooking in schools.
And I wouldnt buy his books. Carb heavy and expensive.

PoppyAmex Mon 02-Sep-13 17:05:21

Darkesteyes my qualification is as good if not better than yours. I'm a native Mediterranean born and bred and guess what, my WHOLE family is too.

I'm not romanticising anything and you just proved my point; life is fucking tough in other countries, with less safety nets and less help than the UK and people come in from work and feed their children.

I'm sick of hearing ineffectual excuses. On another thread someone defending stocking up on Iceland and in the same breath said most people couldn't batch cook because they didn't have freezer space - as if frozen chips take less space than a vat of home made bolognese.

Paraphrasing someone upthread, excuses, excuses, excuses

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 17:08:09

excuse erm yes I think 25 quid is cheaper than 28. I also think that Jacks diet is very low on calories and wouldn't work for any people who aren't slightly built women.

twistyfeet Mon 02-Sep-13 17:10:09

you are right IceBeing. Jack's diet wouldnt feed a teenage boy.

LRDMaguliYaPomochTebeSRaboti Mon 02-Sep-13 17:10:18

Sorry, this may be another 'excuse', but it just occurred to me because it's the case for us (through choice, I'm not whining about it) - poppy, you need the freezer to maintain a constant low temperature to make frozen meat safe. It'd be ideal if your frozen chips stayed constant cold too, but frankly it's less likely to be a problem. My freezer is one of those that's the top shelf bit of a fridge, and yes, there's enough room for meat as there's enough room for a bag of chips - but I would never freeze meat in it as I'd be worried about the health implications.

I have no idea how much of an issue this would be or even if I'm being daft - it's just what I thought of reading your post.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 17:11:03

"And I wouldnt buy his books. Carb heavy and expensive."

I don't think you are supposed to eat the book grin

anyway I am done with this thread. People on here are in denial about the actual amount some people have to get by on. Lucky them and lucky me that I don't have to worry and am going home to well stocked cupboards and a fruit bowl full of fruit.

IceBeing Mon 02-Sep-13 17:12:02

you could do jacks diet for fun for a week and probably lose a few pounds...but it isn't sustainable for long.

PoppyAmex Mon 02-Sep-13 17:12:11

LDR fair enough, so you think this is an issue for a significant part of the population - their freezer is good enough for ready made meals and chips but not frozen vegetables/herbs/batch cooked soup?

OK then.

usualsuspect Mon 02-Sep-13 17:12:44

I agree, her diet hasn't got enough calories in to fill you up for very long.

LRDMaguliYaPomochTebeSRaboti Mon 02-Sep-13 17:14:51

poppy - no, I'm saying, I've no idea who it might be an issue for or even if I'm being silly to think it is an issue.

Sorry, probably shouldn't have raised it on this thread.

I wouldn't put ready meals in there either, not if they had raw meat. I just would worry about it.

usualsuspect Mon 02-Sep-13 17:15:09

If I was skint, I wouldn't waste a quid on a pot of herbs.

I would spend that quid on something more filling.

Darkesteyes Mon 02-Sep-13 17:15:36

Whats with the race to the bottom Poppy. You are still romanticising the poverty over there "life is tough with less safety nets and they manage" Ive seen the damage that poverty does to the mind.
MY father is currently worrying that my mothers left leg is about to turn gangrenous due to standing in very cold temperatures for over 40 years because of the FEAR of poverty.

LRDMaguliYaPomochTebeSRaboti Mon 02-Sep-13 17:16:46

I thought we decided quids were to be spent buying what I imagine would be a very tiny quantity of cannabis, following Jamie's suggestions.

But yes. A quid (ok, I lie, 1.20) gets you a portion of chippy chips. I can somehow imagine which one I might fancy.

Darkesteyes Mon 02-Sep-13 17:20:00

Disabled Peoples Protest were demonstrating outside the BBC earlier. Just seen updates on Twitter According to a person live tweeting it they are really fucked off with Jamie Oliver.

twistyfeet Mon 02-Sep-13 17:22:51

I read they had Occupied BBC HQ DarkestEyes

emuloc Mon 02-Sep-13 17:27:12

I agree also that he should use his influence to improve school meals and make them free for every child who wishes to partake of them.

I have not read all of the posts here but I do think JO speaks a lot of sense. I do not see why he is lambasted tbh.

Darkesteyes Mon 02-Sep-13 17:27:43

Hmmm Wonder how the BBC will try to avoid covering it on the news.

mignonette Mon 02-Sep-13 17:27:44

He's not trying to help.

He's trying to sell his books and his TV programmes. Every one of his 'charity' efforts have been accompanied by a wealth creating publicity drive benefiting.....Jamie Oliver. it is extraordinarily naive to see JO as some kind of altruist. He is an arrogant, sheltered boy-man who uses a few isolated irresponsible parents to tarnish whole sections of society.

If you want true chef altruism research the initiatives in Spain that went unpublicised by the mainstream media before the New Statesman mentioned them.

The only living creatures to gain nourishment from Kaffir lime leaves are Mealy Bugs and Aphids. Yet they are used as an ingredient in his new 'cooking for the poor' book. And even he cannot be so dumb as to think they grow in the local park. A bloody joke.

Read Jack Monroe (and The Evening Standard comparison of their recipes) if you want to read a credible author on budget cooking and a low food budget.

mignonette Mon 02-Sep-13 17:31:11

Iceland sell frozen peas w/ a higher nutritional content than 'fresh' which as usually been hanging around for quite some tine on store.

Not everything in Iceland is processed.

Darkesteyes Mon 02-Sep-13 17:31:15

Hi mignonette YY If Jamie TRULY wants to emulate whats happening in the Med it would mean giving his free time without publicity just like their famous chefs are doing.
But he would rather take advantage of the celebrity culture over here to poor bash instead.

Callani Mon 02-Sep-13 17:31:26

friday
"That's a family of four in receipt of, say, HB, tax credits, two loads of child benefit? Or HB, JSA/IA and two loads of child benefit?"

To be honest there are a whole range of reasons that a family can't afford £35 a week and yes, I'm sure there are a lot of people who have their priorities wrong and can afford a packet of cigarettes a day but not to eat healthily.

But that's not always the case and sometimes people struggle because:
a) they've recently had an unexpected expense (boiler breaking down, car insurance premium, etc)
b) they'd previously committed to monthly expenses and now have been made redundant or had their hours cut
c) they're self employed and haven't been able to get as much work that month
d) they have to pay extortionate prices for season tickets for their commute to work and it always means that they have to cut back for the week/month they buy them

I'm not saying that people don't make the wrong choices, and I think that Jamie is doing a good thing by trying to tackle this issue but he is conflating everyone who struggles to afford their weekly shop with lazy stereotypes of benefit scroungers and this isn't true and it isn't helpful.

Meglet Mon 02-Sep-13 17:33:14

Batch cooking does take up more space than a bag of chips.

Compare a bag of chips squished into freezer space compared to a square shaped pile of, let's say, 8 containers of home cooked pie which are a bugger to fit in.

Nb: I buy about one bag of oven chips a year.

Jack Monroes carrot + kidney bean burgers aren't bad actually, although I added an egg to bind as I wasn't at all convinced it wouldn't go tits up and be waster. They work better as falafels for pitta bread though, they freeze well. And don't take up much space wink.

Darkesteyes Mon 02-Sep-13 17:33:15

Not to mention the bedroom tax and the fact that those on very low incomes are also now paying council tax too.

lottieandmia Mon 02-Sep-13 17:35:58

'The annoying, irritating and maddening thing about JO is that he is talking crap, the sort of thing you hear in the pub, but he is doing it from a very high platform.'

Yes, this sums up my problem with him entirely.

I also agree that the sort of budgets some people have to live on do mean that they buy mainly cheap, frozen food from somewhere like Iceland and they don't have much choice but to do so. How affordable it is to cook from scratch is all relative to us all.

catinabox Mon 02-Sep-13 17:37:02

I don't understand how countries in which the standard of living is significantly lower than the UK's manage to feed their children nutritionally sound meals and it seems like an impossible mission here

poppy the problem is that food has become one of the biggest commodities of capitalism in the west.

in other parts of the world food is not viewed as an opportunity for rampant profiteering.

We now live in a culture where most family meals are being cooked/chosen by someone who has been raised in an environment of heavy advertising, convenience and pre prepared food are the norm.

Supermarkets do not sell produce they hard sell branded food made and marketed by corporations. Locally available affordable produce is harder to come by because supermarkets have caught an audience which would have previously used local trade.

The cultural context is very very powerful. I think people are absolutely right in saying that nutrition ought to be a priority and affordable ways to feed a family are possible. BUT to expect individuals in society who have the LEAST choice and the LEAST power to be able to independently and individually buck the trend that capitalist society has forced upon us not least through the medium of our giant t.v's grin is ignorant.

We also live in increasingly transient disconnected communities so where our mothers and grandmothers may have passed down recipes and food related traditions we now have the 'friday night takeaway', Maccy D's and so on.

friday16 Mon 02-Sep-13 17:38:47

" they've recently had an unexpected expense (boiler breaking down, car insurance premium, etc)"

In what way is a car insurance premium "unexpected"? And in any event, I wish the hand-wringing was consistent: when last heard of, the victims in this story were unable to shop in supermarkets because they couldn't afford the bus fare, and now they're paying car insurance? So why can't they go and do a cheaper weekly shop, then?

"they have to pay extortionate prices for season tickets for their commute to work"

Then they'll be receiving substantial in-work benefits, including tax credits, which make me sceptical about the claim that they can't afford a quid for a pot of herbs or to put the oven on for an hour, or the rest of the hand wringing.

limitedperiodonly Mon 02-Sep-13 17:39:43

But if the book is not for those on the breadline, but for those for whom frugality is more a hobby than a necessity, why does he mention people on low incomes at all?

friday16 Mon 02-Sep-13 17:40:48

"Supermarkets do not sell produce they hard sell branded food made and marketed by corporations."

Did I miss a meeting at which we all reset our political watches to 1976? I rather thought that assuming that poverty meant people lost moral agency and became helpless pawns of capitalism went out with Supertramp albums.

Callani Mon 02-Sep-13 17:40:54

Also, I swear by batch buying, cooking and freezing because it saves me a whole tonne of money and I can get a month's worth of relatively posh dinners for about £80 that way but the problem is not everyone has the upfront cash to do this and it takes a whole lot of time and effort (and freezer space!) to do.

mignonette Mon 02-Sep-13 17:43:02

Hi Darkest....Out of interest i have been talking to all the people I know who are from Southern Europe (only about forty people) plus some shop assistants in local deli'es etc.

Every single one of them validated what you have had to say. Every one of them say how ridiculous, outdated and overly romantic a view it is to see them all as dining well on cheap fresh local food.

They all say they worry for the future of their culture especially with regard to the young.

I go to the Slow Food festivals each year and am a member(next one I want to attend is the EuroGusto on November). There has been mas concern about the rise of fast food, reduction in availability of fresh and the rising costs of production, distribution and access to. I am sure that there will be presentation of research concerning this at the next 'Salon'.

People who claim to 'know' about S Europe but deny the inaccuracy of the JO depiction of Italy/Spain, are blinkered. They do not know at all.

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 17:43:16

The cultural context is very very powerful. I think people are absolutely right in saying that nutrition ought to be a priority and affordable ways to feed a family are possible. BUT to expect individuals in society who have the LEAST choice and the LEAST power to be able to independently and individually buck the trend

For goodness sake, it's hardly bucking the trend, they will have learnt from healthy eating sessions in school what is healthy and what is not healthy. They choose what to buy, what to put in their body, IT'S NOT THAT HARD! Seriously, all these excuses are pathetic and sad sad

stooshe Mon 02-Sep-13 17:44:59

We British (first generation here)don't have a common culture of non material aspiration (which would include cooking ) do we? Hence the sniping about Jamie Oliver's success, whinging about the kids' not appreciating freshly prepared meals (as if they should have a choice),etc, etc. It's embarrassing and it's blame shifting of the highest degree. Why would somebody have a child if they wouldn't want to feed it with something prepared by them. Why have a child and not have any intention of learning to cook. Why would a sane person put high interest payments to Brighthouse for a plasma t.v over using the money to buy fruit and veg for their children? This can't be the feminism (the right to be a twat) that our ancestors fought for. I feel the collective rolling of corpses in graves. Soft as shit, we are.

stooshe Mon 02-Sep-13 17:46:41

* I missed out at least three question marks in my rant. I hope it hasn't diluted its effect (snigger).

catinabox Mon 02-Sep-13 17:47:07

goodpost migonette

And i think if you make comparisons there is cheap, carb laden fatty street food available in countries all over the world. Just as there is in the uk

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 17:49:07

JO was talking about people of this generation being work shy but it seems god forbid that any effort at all should go into preparing a nutritious evening meal. Kitchen shy more like it. It verges on the ridiculous.

Callani Mon 02-Sep-13 17:53:12

Friday
"I wish the hand-wringing was consistent: when last heard of, the victims in this story were unable to shop in supermarkets because they couldn't afford the bus fare, and now they're paying car insurance? So why can't they go and do a cheaper weekly shop, then?"

Personally I take issue with the fact you accuse me of hand wringing - I've repeated many times that all I want is a bit of balance to the story rather than just assuming everyone who struggles to make ends meet are lazy shirkers. The "victims" of my story never mentioned having to get the bus, so maybe I'm not being consistent with everybody else but I'm certain consistent with the point I'm making.

And yes, car insurance premiums can be unexpectedly expensive - can you honestly tell me yours haven't gone up a whole whopping lot more than you were expecting? I have, more than once, and in those times I relied on savings - pretty difficult if you don't have any.

Also, if your season train ticket costs more than your month's wage then it doesn't matter how many in work benefits you receive - that month is going to be tough.

usualsuspect Mon 02-Sep-13 17:54:07

Yeah get back in the kitchen where you belong.

twistyfeet Mon 02-Sep-13 17:56:44

I dont think its just this generation. My mum was born in 1935 and was overjoyed when fray bentos pies and Angel delight etc became available so she didnt have to spend the 60's and 70's in the kitchen. She worked full time with 3 children and didnt want to cook. I dont think I recall seeing a fresh vegetable! And puddings were out of a tin.
None of us were fat either.

ubik Mon 02-Sep-13 17:59:12

"They" "the poor"

Do you realise how patronising some of you sound?

FWIW the people i know who eat badly are on a comfortable income, are fat because they and spend alot of money on eating out and prepared luxury food items.They will be faithfully purchasing producing JO-inspired foccacia while downing rioja.

Why would a sane person put high interest payments to Brighthouse for a plasma t.v over using the money to buy fruit and veg for their children?

Because it's a bad deal but when you spend your life saying no to your children, sometimes it's great to say yes to something which can entertain the whole family together.

I'm sick of this whole 50's nuclear family idyll being used as a stick to bash people.

My mother became very poor when her father died (in the 50's) and her mother worked at 2 jobs, daytime and evening. Mum grew up alone watching TV shows, eating 50's prepared food and snacks. She lived in fear of the money running out for the TV as it was her only evening company.TV can be a good investment when you don't have much money.

mignonette Mon 02-Sep-13 17:59:21

Yes Cat and it is on the increase in S Europe. I had a Mner sneering at an example I used regarding the rise of convenience food including sugary cereals replacing traditional breakfasts in France. Something along the lines of 'that'll bring down civilisation' (i.e it was a trivial example). What this MNer fails to grasp is that this was the start of a process which has led to mass growth in supermarkets full of packaged crap, the decline in the availability of good artisanal bread (especially in Paris during the early 2000's) although Slow Food is trying to address this and the successful branding of fast food as desirable and convenient to modern life.

This process is being repeated all over Europe. JO shows his complete ignorance over the research into these cultural, economic and demographic changes. He goes on a little jaunt in his camper van, meets the locals his research advance team tell him to meet, makes a pretty little show and a ton of money.

Now I have no problem w/ him making loads of money. But don't try and dress it up as social campaigning or altruism. Because it is not.

friday16 Mon 02-Sep-13 18:00:35

"Also, if your season train ticket costs more than your month's wage then it doesn't matter how many in work benefits you receive - that month is going to be tough."

If your monthly season ticket costs more than a month's wages, you're going to be bankrupt very quickly, no matter how much you earn. I'm sceptical if anyone in deep poverty is purchasing annual season tickets at all, and surely would either have saved during the year or taken a season ticket loan from their employer. Who are these people who are simultaneously unable to feed their families more than junk, and yet are commuting on annual seasons? A six-zone annual season is 1700 quid.

"car insurance premiums can be unexpectedly expensive - can you honestly tell me yours haven't gone up a whole whopping lot more than you were expecting? "

Yes. Mine's dropped each of the last three years as it happens, for both our cars (a combination of us getting older and the cars getting older). I don't deny they've increased in many cases, but I'm not remotely convinced that people who are running cars are convincing examples of "can't afford a quid for a pot of herbs or 50p to run the over for an hour" poverty.

catinabox Mon 02-Sep-13 18:03:45

they will have learnt from healthy eating sessions in school what is healthy and what is not healthy

If they go to school...and listen.....i've worked with 15 year olds that don't know that milk comes from cows....true.

And if the school teaches them correctly. Brown sugar instead of White because its better for you, all fat is bad, don't make from scratch its easier to buy a jar of sauce or a pizza base.

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 18:08:20

But I would have thought the majority of 15 year olds will know that milk comes from a cow?

My DD was in reception class last year and the healthy eating campaign even begins in year R for goodness sake. She was coming home and telling me what is healthy and what isn't healthy. Surely a kids going through school can miss all the times healthy eating is flagged up? I just don't believe that. Healthy eating ideals are plastered everywhere in society these days. You can't turn around without seeing poster telling you to eat you five a day.

limitedperiodonly Mon 02-Sep-13 18:09:27

I've got a smart metre, the oven costs 55p an hour on it's own, add another 20p for each hob ring. If you are using 2 rings and the oven you are looking at 95p an hour, it would be much more with a card metre. Add to that boiling the kettle etc and cooking can be pricey. My TV costs 2p an hour in comparison. Cooking is not cheap so recipes need to be quick as well as having low cost ingredients for those on smaller budgets.

Bubbles1066 Thank you for your breakdown of fuel costs way upthread.

Yesterday I bought about two and a quarter pounds of ox cheek for just under £7 in Sainsbury's. It was 64p for 100g. Imperial and metric all over the place there grin

I'm a keen cook and fancied doing some batch cooking of fancy-dan ragu and also some form of beef stew with other ingredients I have.

I bet all that makes me a prime target for Jamie Oliver and his marketing monster.

The butcher and I were discussing the merits of a cheap cut of meat versus the time it takes to make it nice to eat.

Three to four hours in the oven in this case. Then I'm going to stick it in the freezer, which you didn't cost out (and why should you?), and then defrost it and reheat it on the hob for about an hour topped up with a bit of boiling water from the kettle.

We didn't know, or maybe he did, and I didn't. I don't have to think about the cost, but perhaps he does and that's why he brought it up.

Or maybe I'm being patronising to the bloke who works in Sainsbury's. But as that seems in the spirit of Jamie Oliver and some posters on this thread I'm going to risk it.

Badvoc Mon 02-Sep-13 18:10:01

So I am pandering to my mum by giving her gluten free stuff?
Allergies are not fussy eating.
Ffs.
Twisty...you make a very interesting point. My mum also loved the introduction of convenience foods in the 1970s...she worked and had 3 kids to feed on a limited budget.
We had stews, roasts etc but we also had pizza, chips, pancakes and sausages as a quick meal.
It does seem to be a generation raised on a diet of tv gastro porn that bothers about whether a bit of beef has been hung for 20 days or whatever (Nigel slater I am looking at you) and we don't all have access to a farmers market or great corner shop that sells everything!
As long as my dc are fit and Healthy and not overweight I really don't feel bad about them having pizza, ice cream etc.
I am sure lots of naive middle class families eat pizza and have ice cream...

MorrisZapp Mon 02-Sep-13 18:12:10

If they don't go to school and don't listen then what can be done?

I don't know of any supermarket that doesn't sell fresh produce, and store cupboard ingredients. Eggs are pretty much instant fresh food.

I thought JO was great on Woman's Hour, and I'm sick of the excuses on this thread for crap diet etc.

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 18:14:53

Morris if they never go to school ever then the parents would be pretty heavily fined I think hmm and what a child won't listen, ever, every single hour they're in school for their entire school career hmm

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 18:16:32

Agree about eggs being instant fresh food. If I'm in a rush my children will have scrambled egg with homemade bread and fruit and yogurt for pudding.

friday16 Mon 02-Sep-13 18:17:23

"Allergies are not fussy eating."

I was responding to someone claiming that their child couldn't eat shepherds pie, but could eat burger and chips. It's hard to see that that's due to allergy.

PeanutButterMmm Mon 02-Sep-13 18:18:26

Ice, no the point is some families can afford to eat a more healthy diet but they are choosing to feed their children on crap either out of lack of education on how to cook healthy food or laziness or they are addicted to junk and know no different. This is very different from families who cannot afford a pot noodle, no one is talking about those families, they are talking about those who can afford other crap but not healthy ingredients.

Someone in the thread explained how the lentils were cheaper than the chocolate biscuits explaining in detail how.

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 18:19:11

My child wouldn't have eaten shepherd's pie. All those different foods touching and mixed in would have been a total sensory overload for his tastebuds.

He could eat a plain burger and some wedges though. But it took a fair few years to get to that stage tbh.

friday16 Mon 02-Sep-13 18:19:17

"Eggs are pretty much instant fresh food."

You insensitive bastard. What about egg-intolerant benefit claimants who can't afford a saucepan living in houses without cookers who are allergic to the letter G? Eh? Eh? Eh?

twistyfeet Mon 02-Sep-13 18:19:53

I'm having home made beanburgers with homemade coleslaw <smug>
ds2 is having shop pizza cos he is a hungry gannet.

limitedperiodonly Mon 02-Sep-13 18:19:53

JO was talking about people of this generation being work shy but it seems god forbid that any effort at all should go into preparing a nutritious evening meal. Kitchen shy more like it. It verges on the ridiculous.

This is my main problem with Jamie Oliver: he's inconsistent.

By all means champion the right of employers to take advantage of cheap labour from EU member states over workshy British workers.

But then to complain about the EU Working Time Directive, which, luckily he doesn't have to follow?

To paraphrase the £150 million chef, something doesn't add up.

ubik Mon 02-Sep-13 18:20:03

I have a friend you used to provide respite care for families who needed a break from their surrounding (crappy housing,poor health, drug dealing neighbours threatening to kill you or your children if you don't deal drugs for them, that sort of thing...)

She asked them the colour green came up in conversation (I think it was about football shirts) and one replied: "that colour, that's cheese and onion,".. friend was like, "whaaaat?" "cheese and onion" said the kid - his knowledge of colours was categorised according to the colour of crisp packets grin

Later the children where horrified to discover eggs come of out chickens bums... friend had to pretend they had got the eggs 'ready-made' from Tesco otherwise children refused to eat them grin

Anyway

There are far bigger problems out there to solve than what people on very low incomes eat.

expatinscotland Mon 02-Sep-13 18:20:14

Yes, see, it's always 'those people', 'them', 'they'. Social racism, indeed.

Darkesteyes Mon 02-Sep-13 18:21:54

YY limited Jamie is gaslighting massively.

twistyfeet Mon 02-Sep-13 18:22:54

How come JO doesnt have a go at Eric Pickles and the ever more portly Cameron?

Darkesteyes Mon 02-Sep-13 18:23:05

YY expat David Threlfall called it social rascism in an interview he did I thought it a very apt description I still do.

MorrisZapp Mon 02-Sep-13 18:23:06

How should we refer to poorer people, in this particular debate?

friday16 Mon 02-Sep-13 18:23:10

"My child wouldn't have eaten shepherd's pie."

They'd have starved themselves to death instead?

It's remarkable that all these claimed justifications for fussy food always mean that the only solution is junk. Isn't that remarkable? You never hear of people being allergic to broccoli, do you?

Darkesteyes Mon 02-Sep-13 18:23:28

Or Ken Clarke.

limitedperiodonly Mon 02-Sep-13 18:24:18

And can I just say that sardines on toast would not be my death row meal?

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 18:25:29

My ds is severely autistic and has/had food issues.

He is much better with what he will eat now but still could not eat a shepherd's pie.

I did, however, manage to convince him that roast parsnips were really chips. A huge achievement.

expatinscotland Mon 02-Sep-13 18:25:47

'How should we refer to poorer people, in this particular debate?'

We can start by dropping the entire idea that there is even a 'debate' about 'poorer people' when it comes to unhealthy eating and unhealthy habits. They are a problem across the board in this country.

But it doesn't suit JO's agenda, which is to sell books.

He's the Katie Hopkins of food.

MorrisZapp Mon 02-Sep-13 18:26:03

JO has no axe to grind with overweight adults AFAIK? Adults can eat what they choose. It's what people feed their kids he's interested in.

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 18:26:12

And tbh you are lacking in an empathy whatsoever.

expatinscotland Mon 02-Sep-13 18:27:50

The only axe JO seeks to grind is the one which will spin out coins for himself.

He's hardly Bill Fucking Gates.

usualsuspect Mon 02-Sep-13 18:27:58

No overweight rich kids then?

friday16 Mon 02-Sep-13 18:29:21

"I did, however, manage to convince him that roast parsnips were really chips."

Again: convince him that healthy food is junk and he eats it. So where did the inbuilt preference for junk come from?

amothersplaceisinthewrong Mon 02-Sep-13 18:29:34

Jamie Oliver makes my blood boil. He is a jumped up semi-literate, semi-articulate cook who seems to think he has the right to address the nation and be listened to.

MorrisZapp Mon 02-Sep-13 18:30:08

Expat, all the research suggests that people on lower incomes are more likely to be unhealthy, overweight, smoke, have diabetes etc etc. There are parts of Glasgow where male life expectancy is lower than in some developing countries.

Of course these issues cut across all classes, but to deny any link to income is simply wrong.

Oblomov Mon 02-Sep-13 18:30:55

I agree with quite a lot of what JO says.
I do have a problem with those that have huge TV's, designer goods and clothes, but can't seem to cook for their children.
Some of his suggested items, lemon grass xxx, or poncey oil this and that, are beyond many people's budget. But have you never heard of adapting? I have cooked a few of his receipes. And I have never bought any of his poncey items. I probably could afford, it, but can't be bothered.

I struggle to understand those people that have fussy eaters. You atleast have to persevere, surely? Yakky with her shepherds pie, made me quite uncomfortable. And sad, surely you can get most children to eat shepherd pie? I have never cooked my kids a seperate meal, and never will. I encourage my 2 to atleast try, all foods.

Some of the complaints about what JO is saying are just totally unfounded.

ubik Mon 02-Sep-13 18:31:30

We can start by dropping the entire idea that there is even a 'debate' about 'poorer people' when it comes to unhealthy eating and unhealthy habits.

Hear, hear Expat

Let;s get Jamie to comment on profiteering by energy compnies, banks, PFI companies. Let;s ask why social mobility has decreased and why the social divide is now so great we think that the biggest problem in low income families lives is some cheese and chips in front of the TV.

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 18:31:34

I have no idea. I can't ask him as he is completely non-verbal.

He did used to eat all kinds of veg until he was 3 and then just stopped. Completely refused.

And yes, he would starve himself. Unless a meal was presented in a certain way at a certain time, he would not eat.

He also used to eat his own poo.

friday16 Mon 02-Sep-13 18:32:01

"No overweight rich kids then?"

Far fewer. I recently went to a musical event which was a combination of an orchestra from the suburbs and a choir from a deprived part of the city. The contrast was stark.

mignonette Mon 02-Sep-13 18:32:03

JO looks pretty unhealthy to me. I'd love to see his LDL/HDL levels! And equating fat w/ unhealthy as so many do in this country ignores the fact that even very thin people can have unhealthy levels of internal fat surrounding their organs.

Yes there are people in the UK who may well choose to not learn how to feed their families including the comfortably off and well off. But there are many more who do try and JO is adding to the not inconsiderable difficulties they face with his sweeping, uneducated and bigoted statements. Bad enough having little money and then a dick like him comes along to bitter the pot.

MorrisZapp Mon 02-Sep-13 18:32:11

Of course there are rich overweight kids. Jamies food is meant to be about nutrition and enjoyment anyway, its not a weight loss diet.

expatinscotland Mon 02-Sep-13 18:33:30

'Of course these issues cut across all classes, but to deny any link to income is simply wrong.'

I never did. It is a problem across the board, however. JO seeks to capitalise on this by running his mouth to line his purse by it. He is not seeking to remedy it, but to use current government and media-stirred negative sentiment towards those most disadvantaged in order to flog his book and TV series. Duh.

MorrisZapp Mon 02-Sep-13 18:34:31

Jamie is a chef. That's his job. Why would he speak (or deserve to be listened to) on the current economic issues of the day? Of course there are bigger problems in the world than a kid eating cheese and chips. But those problems are hardly his remit are they.

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 18:35:13

I think Jamie Oliver has got the guts to say what a lot of people think but feel they can't say because it isn't politically correct.

catinabox Mon 02-Sep-13 18:35:32

ubik spot on post.

JO shows his complete ignorance over the research into these cultural, economic and demographic changes

agreed, and he has demonstrated this nicely with his comments.

I'm fed up with bashing benefits claimants, people in poverty etc. JO has jumped on this bandwagon and hidden it in guise of altruism because he knows that he'll get a response from the public.

He probably believes he is right but he doesn't see the bigger picture. It's encouraging when people show a bit of intelligence and can see the broader issues in their wider context.

minimalist I would love you to come and spend a day at work with me.....

twistyfeet Mon 02-Sep-13 18:36:20

'I have never cooked my kids a seperate meal, '

I had to as ds1 is autistic and dd2 cant chew food. Its a total pain in the arse. Now I get to add in coeliacs but thank fuck the boys are now adults and can cook their own food. I felt like putting up a sign 'Cafe Twisty' and ask for money. Some days I felt like crying over food.
From now on DH can eat coeliacs food. If he wants gluten he can cook it himself. dd2 will always need weirdo food though.

MorrisZapp Mon 02-Sep-13 18:36:24

Bit rude to 'duh' me, Expat. I don't agree at all about JOs attitudes or motivations but I can't see any middle ground here.

expatinscotland Mon 02-Sep-13 18:37:24

'Why would he speak (or deserve to be listened to) on the current economic issues of the day?'

That's exactly what he's doing to flog this book.

I do agree, he's a chef. He should STFU and shove some more prosciutto down it or something.

catinabox Mon 02-Sep-13 18:38:24

Let;s get Jamie to comment on profiteering by energy compnies, banks, PFI companies. Let;s ask why social mobility has decreased and why the social divide is now so great we think that the biggest problem in low income families lives is some cheese and chips in front of the TV.

Bang on.

Darkesteyes Mon 02-Sep-13 18:38:33

I agree expat What he is doing is disgusting.

catinabox Mon 02-Sep-13 18:39:24

......and to add that as long as we keep doing this, the REAL issues are going to be in the shadows.

That's what pisses me off i think.

expatinscotland Mon 02-Sep-13 18:39:32

Then it's a good thing I didn't write, 'Duh, Morris Zapp'.

Darkesteyes Mon 02-Sep-13 18:39:53

catinabox what do you do for work.

Darkesteyes Mon 02-Sep-13 18:42:10

catinaboxMon 02-Sep-13 18:39:24

......and to add that as long as we keep doing this, the REAL issues are going to be in the shadows.

And thats the way a lot of people want it to remain.

theoriginalandbestrookie Mon 02-Sep-13 18:42:18

I believe jamie has lost the plot somewhat. He appears to have passionate social convictions and when I watched the Fifteen series no one could doubt that his heart, and more importantly his actions, were in the right place.

But to bring this up just at the time his £15.00 (or £7.99 at tescos) book on living frugally has come out. He's having a laugh. If he really meant what he said he would distribute truckloads of his book for free to the most deprived areas, plus the means to make the meals such as a distribution of slow cookers.

Who does he think is going to buy the book? The feckless poor that he has slagged off ? I don't think it will be particularly appealing to those who can afford a little bit more in their food budget. I won't buy it as he appears to be patronising all of us.

limitedperiodonly Mon 02-Sep-13 18:42:51

Jamie Oliver is a troll

expatinscotland Mon 02-Sep-13 18:43:10

'I think Jamie Oliver has got the guts to say what a lot of people think but feel they can't say because it isn't politically correct.'

And I think his PR team are worth whatever he's paying them when I see so many have fallen for the ignorant claptrap he spouts to gain exactly what he sought by spraffing them in the first place: more sales of his books and better ratings.

As someone else put it: the only one to truly benefit from what JO does is his bank manager.

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 18:44:08

What is your work cat?

Darkesteyes Mon 02-Sep-13 18:46:44

From what ive seen in the press and from some posters on MN and in RL people are certainly not afraid of being patronising and discriminating. "A lot of people think but feel they CANT SAY" Yeah right!

Nancy66 Mon 02-Sep-13 18:46:49

JO did say during is MN webchat that he's giving free copies of the book to libraries

MorrisZapp Mon 02-Sep-13 18:46:53

Your 'duh' was at the end of your answer to my quote. I found it rude.

But anyway. I'm glad JO doesn't stfu, I think he's interesting and mostly a force for good. I've never cooked his recipes and probably never will, but my foodier friends like lots of his stuff.

His books sell by the truckload. God knows why, but they do. My mum loves him, my teenaged neice loves him. He wants the nation to eat better food. I'm glad there are people willing to put themselves in the firing line like he does.

MorrisZapp Mon 02-Sep-13 18:48:48

Who does he think is going to buy his book? Um, shitloads of people would be my guess. He's a massively popular cookery book author.

MinimalistMommi Mon 02-Sep-13 18:49:24

Totally agree Morris

Darkesteyes Mon 02-Sep-13 18:50:46

Write up for tonights show.

In these frugal times, cooking on a budget can be tricky. So it’s lucky that Jamie Oliver is on hand to show us how it’s done. In a brand new series, the celebrity chef is on a mission to create tasty dishes for £1.80 a portion, without compromising on quality. From handy money-saving tips to advice on wasting less food, the naked chef teaches and inspires families to whip up healthy meals on a shoestring budget. Want to shave some pennies off your weekly food bill? Watch and learn


Note the wording "shoestring budget" Yet on the MN webchat he said that its not for ppl on a low budget and there are plenty of MN threads/ideas for that.

Gaslighting 101

MorrisZapp Mon 02-Sep-13 19:00:01

Gaslighting? Really?

I find that laughable.

limitedperiodonly Mon 02-Sep-13 19:07:48

Tonight, Matthew, I will be doing a little French-inspired chicken in mustard sauce dish with potatoes and carrots.

It'll probably come out at about £1.15-18 a portion. Eat that, Jamie.

<still can't beat Jack Monroe>

friday16 Mon 02-Sep-13 19:09:31

"In a brand new series, the celebrity chef is on a mission to create tasty dishes for £1.80 a portion, "

So it's aiming at people who spend around £80 a week for a family of four in total food bills. Which is, in terms of Channel 4's demographic, about right: Channel 4 isn't aiming below that point, because its advertisers wouldn't want to get involved.

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 19:11:16

Yes but £80 a week is not a shoestring budget.

TiggyD Mon 02-Sep-13 19:12:15

I STILL BELIEVE IN YOU JAMIE!

friday16 Mon 02-Sep-13 19:13:39

"Yes but £80 a week is not a shoestring budget."

It is if you are currently spending more than that. It would be very interesting to know what proportion of the population spend significantly more.

twistyfeet Mon 02-Sep-13 19:14:14

Surely £80 id above average for a family of 4?

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 19:16:41

Half of that amount for a family of 4 would be a shoestring budget.

Seriously, this just compounds the fact that this isn't about helping anyone who is really struggling. It is to help the middle classes who will buy his book.

I see no altruism.

limitedperiodonly Mon 02-Sep-13 19:16:47

it's aiming at people who spend around £80 a week for a family of four in total food bills. Which is, in terms of Channel 4's demographic, about right: Channel 4 isn't aiming below that point, because its advertisers wouldn't want to get involved

I agree. So why do you think he felt the need to mention people outside this demographic?

Nancy66 Mon 02-Sep-13 19:19:56

In 2012 the average weekly spend on food was £77 - according to Which?

silverten Mon 02-Sep-13 19:21:19

These two threads (this and the cooking from scratch one) have been a complete education for me. I have a new appreciation for just how stupendously lucky I am.

But what I can't get my head around is why on earth my weekly Lidl shop is so massive. I can cook, we mostly eat home cooked stuff, I batch cook quite a bit and we throw very little away. No booze, no toiletries, minimal cleaning products, not much meat or processed foods and I still spend about 80 quid a week. There are only three of us - and DD is three!

What the hell am I doing wrong???

PoppyAmex Mon 02-Sep-13 19:21:51

"Out of interest i have been talking to all the people I know who are from Southern Europe (only about forty people) plus some shop assistants in local deli'es etc.

People who claim to 'know' about S Europe but deny the inaccuracy of the JO depiction of Italy/Spain, are blinkered. They do not know at all."

mignon we have had this discussion before.

Considering your experience relates to "about forty people" and mine is from birth to 30 years living in Southern Europe along with my entire family and friends, I think we can safely say my "sample" is more reliable than yours.

Meglet said upthread that it's hard to store batch cooking, might I suggest zipper bags or soup bags instead of bulky containers? Takes less space than a ready meal and it also defrosts quicker, which is a bonus if you're in a hurry.

LRD I get what you were saying - I won't argue with you because I almost always find myself nodding along to your posts smile

ubik Mon 02-Sep-13 19:22:45

Yes life expectancy is very low in parts of Glasgow, many men will not see retirement.

But the reasons are complex, social and environmental factors work together to produce this. But this is about poverty not about cooking lentils or making a chicken go 3 days.

friday16 Mon 02-Sep-13 19:22:50

"Surely £80 id above average for a family of 4?"

Mean? Median? £100 a week is £5200 a year. In a household containing two people working at average wage plus tax credits that doesn't seem implausible. The median expenditure per household is about £56, but that includes adults living on their own and couples without children.

If I had the sort of work people at the bottom end of the salary scale often have: strenuous, repetitive, boring, and badly paid, I sure as hell would spend my life craving fatty, salty and sweet food, because it scratches an itch when you are feeling empty inside and utterly exhausted.

People eat shit because they're knackered and spiritually empty.

J.O. has no idea about the daily grinding bleakness of some people's lives and of the monotony of their work.

MorrisZapp Mon 02-Sep-13 19:27:31

I was told to stop linking poverty with bad diet. So I answered that. Think we're going in circles.

BTW - I'm feeling knackered and stressed at the moment. I can't stay away from the fridge and have been eating plastic bread all afternoon.

As soon as the children go back to school my diet will improve exponentially (I've put on 10lbs over the summer eating crap out of tiredness and irritation).

That's why I empathise with the shite-eating proles.

MorrisZapp Mon 02-Sep-13 19:30:18

Fair enough titty, most people use food as reward. But wanting a fatty feast at the end of a shift is a desire, not an income based necessity.

People of all incomes use food and drink to 'self medicate', whatever their problems. But that's not the same as being too poor to have any choice.

grubb Mon 02-Sep-13 19:31:15

Slightly aghast at the person a few pages ago who called JO semi-literate. He is dyslexic. And he is right - there are a lot of people who think feeding their children on ready meals and pies all the time is fine.

I have just been to Legoland and was very sad about the number of kids in the pool aged between 5-10 who had cellulite on their bellies. Tbh it wouldn't do them any harm if they had to starve for a few days in order to adapt to eating something healthy (the alternative being nothing).

There also seems to be a view on here that none of the poor can help themselves. Please cut the pity, as there are plenty of people I see in the social sector I work in that choose to live as they do - as far as they are concerned the minimum wage isn't worth getting off the sofa for. They have lost the will to live, and being overweight and living on microwaved slop doesn't help.

ubik Mon 02-Sep-13 19:32:33

Poverty is about more than food.

And yes Titty I have just done 4xnightshifts and have managed 2 hot meaks in Everything else has been toast and chocolate at 4am.

ubik Mon 02-Sep-13 19:34:42

And Jamie surprises a food waster in her home and shows her what to do with all the meat in her freezer that she normally ends up chucking away.

Blimey Jamie, you are really tackling food poverty in this series...

MorrisZapp Mon 02-Sep-13 19:35:16

Of course poverty is about more than food. But which part of the debate on poverty would you expect a chef to be addressing?

ubik Mon 02-Sep-13 19:47:53

I don't expect a chef to address any part of poverty, particularly when he is flogging a book and a TV series on the back of it.

Nothing wrong with JO making a tv programme showing people how to cook - linking it to some sort of moral crusade against the feckless poor and their plasma screen TVs is dishonest and crass.

limitedperiodonly Mon 02-Sep-13 19:52:01

Nothing wrong with JO making a tv programme showing people how to cook - linking it to some sort of moral crusade against the feckless poor and their plasma screen TVs is dishonest and crass

Beautiful ubik

mignonette Mon 02-Sep-13 19:56:22

My experience is based upon wide ranging research, compassion and RL experience of working w/ those being demonised. No I cannot physically canvas the opinion of every person in S Europe that is true. Nor can you Poppy. I can base my statements upon wide ranging research though by people who do know. I do not count you in those because again, you speak from your own POV.

Unfortunately those living in regions/countries hard hit by recession and the demographic, cultural and economic changes mentioned in so much research and commentary do not always grasp what is really going on. Whether it is because they are closed minded, uninterested, smug, disinterested I cannot say.

We see this in the UK constantly so why should it be any different for other places? Poppy in the previous thread you showed yourself to be very uni-cultural, aware only of what is going on in your little bubble. Yes 'we' have had this conversation before, you are quite right.

But unless I am mistaken, you are not the only person posting on this board and there are other MNers here who may or may not have read the other thread. It is interesting that your subjective viewpoint on European experiences is reflected in your comments yet again.

Therealamandaclarke Mon 02-Sep-13 20:00:33

This is the most befuddling thread I've seen in some time.
I genuinely read (almost) every post and think- yep.

On a personal note, I love the idea of cutting my food budget. I think groceries are bastard expensive.
But I was lucky to have been taught to cook at school. If I close the recipe books and look at the contents of my freezer, or cupboards recalling "old favourites" like fish pie or spaghetti puttanesca etc I can save money at every meal.
But I still have about 40 cook books grin

mignonette Mon 02-Sep-13 20:01:40

Yes Jamie should stick to what he does which is cooking. No more of the fake altruism as a bolt on to his business plan. True altruists (Like Camilla Batmanghelidjh) do not use cheap, semi educated (in terms of research), incorrect and ugly memes to promote their charity and good works. They do not seek to promulgate and generate scorn.

Take a leaf out of her book, JO.

Therealamandaclarke Mon 02-Sep-13 20:05:11

Ok. Maybe not every post. But I think there are some good points on each side.

silverten Mon 02-Sep-13 20:07:48

See I can't seem to cut my budget much, amandaclarke. And I'm not cooking fancy things- since weaning DD I've been harking back to the simple stuff my mum used to do when I was a kid (she was brought up with rationing, got stung with 15% interest rates and really knew how to cook for cheap).

So I'm doing the stuff that Jamie is supposedly going on about, but not getting much change out of a ton a week.

Which leads me to think that he is not as right as he thinks he is about home economics...

Faithless12 Mon 02-Sep-13 20:10:27

friday16 - You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about fussy eaters. I'm a fussy eater, I don't like things touching on my plate never have but I can eat things that have touched/are touching but if I'm cooking nothing touches. I remember my grandmother putting the Bolognese on top of my pasta when I was roughly 4 and I couldn't eat, I just couldn't. It's not simply being a fussy eater I could only eat the pasta that hadn't touched the sauce, you need to understand that it's not simply I didn't want to I physically couldn't.

Plus a list of things we are avoiding for DS because at the minute he is having allergic reactions to nearly everything it seems. It's not a fad the GP, nutritionist, HV and soon hopefully the paediatric allergist are all involved in his diet:
Eggs
Wholewheat bread
Milk (all dairy)
Soya
Seafood
Tomatoes

At the minute it seems we are adding to that list daily. I don't have any issue with cooking from scratch I enjoy it and even if I didn't I have to, to ensure DS gets fed safely and well. We are also lucky enough that we can afford to eat well even with all the expensive alternatives.

Therealamandaclarke Mon 02-Sep-13 20:14:43

No I agree silverten same here.

What is interesting is that some of the most expensive, ingredient - heavy recipes I have are from JO's books.

Therealamandaclarke Mon 02-Sep-13 20:16:24

Fresh food is pricey. Fact.

friday16 Mon 02-Sep-13 20:19:10

" I don't like things touching on my plate never have but I can eat things that have touched/are touching but if I'm cooking nothing touches. "

That's not an allergy. It's a mental health issue.

mignonette Mon 02-Sep-13 20:20:10

To be honest Silver The price of items like washing powder/liquid, toilet rolls, sugar and dry goods, wheat products, condiments, herbs and spices etc has shot up so much that the shopping budget is shot before one even gets to the fresh stuff.

The price of fruit and veg is shocking. I can buy them from the market and I grow a lot too but it wasn't that long ago that £1 would buy you at least 7-8 apples of a decent size. Now the market dishes contain 4-5 much smaller ones. I nearly fainted w/ shock at what we spent on fresh fruit and vegetables this last Sunday. I do buy those £1 living salad leaves trays in compost and replant them as there are hundreds of little plants in them. Saves £££££ on lettuce. Spring onions and garlic sets or seeds can be planted in quite little tubs next to a back door or on a balcony.

Aldi sell bags of cod/salmon fillets for £3 but they are pretty small thin ones. Fine for a big fish pie dotted w/ butter, a little milk, a half bag of peas and covered in mashed potato. But this is still not cheap and if you have teenage boys (especially) they storm the kitchen at 2200 hours and eat the rest up! Aldi cereals start at £1 for basic cornflakes and are remarkable value. The French Torchon ham at £1,49 a pack lasts us well too. Tesco's butter is the best value I have found this week- 98p for 250g. I regularly accompany my community patients shopping to help them learn how to budget so notice the best prices. We need a permanent MN thread at the top of the Talk page for posting offers/bargains and shopping hints. Please MN

If you can find roadside eggs they are the best value. I can find 30 for £2 to £2,50 although I leave more money as I think they are priced too low.

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 20:22:22

Friday, could you possibly be any more unpleasant?

twistyfeet Mon 02-Sep-13 20:22:58

'That's not an allergy. It's a mental health issue.'

So? Its just as real.

Therealamandaclarke Mon 02-Sep-13 20:24:45

mignonette you are an inspiration. Thank you for those pointers.

catinabox Mon 02-Sep-13 20:25:49

dark i work for an organisation tackling child poverty. I wont say to much as dont want to out myself in case anyone i know uses MN!

I had 3 large deprived estates and worked with families with children 11-13 who don't attend school for whatever reason. Did things like teaching kids maths while hanging out in parks etc! Spent loads of time with these children and families and got to know families well.

Have also studied discriminatory discourse at post grad...people in poverty are a group that are discriminated against, not different to people with disabilities, ethnic minorities, women, lgbt etc

the issues are massively complex and ill informed finger pointing really winds me up.

JO is being discriminatory.

PeanutButterMmm Mon 02-Sep-13 20:30:55

I think Tesco is an expensive supermarket for the value of the product. Looking at this thread Tesco is mentioned a bit and i am just wondering do people who cannot afford alot shop there because it is all they have or do they choose that supermarket? Asda is far far cheaper as is Aldi and if you can find them farmers markets and green grocers are far cheaper than supermarkets for fruit and veg.

Just wondering why people bother with Tesco as it's not cheap (like Asda/Aldi) nor is it luxury (like Waitrose/M&S)?

friday16 Mon 02-Sep-13 20:30:59

"So? Its just as real."

I wonder what the diagnosis and proposed treatment is. It's been diagnosed, right?

silverten Mon 02-Sep-13 20:33:22

The conclusion I have come to is the same- it's the fresh stuff that really stings the budget. I rarely buy washing or cleaning stuff, don't get toiletries from Lidl, buy herbs and spices from the market because they are massively cheaper and just don't do most processed stuff because I don't like it.

The stuff I get is basically

loaf bread
ground coffee (occasionally)
fruit and veg (choice heavily influenced by the cheap three or four at the end of the aisle)
some tinned tomatoes and/or beans depending on what I need that week
oil (occasionally)
pasta (occasionally)
tinned soup (occasionally)
yoghurt
small pack ham for sarnies
butter
milk
cheese
eggs
toilet roll (occasionally)
nappies (occasionally)
washing powder/washing up liquid (occasionally)

Sure I could cut some quality in places, I guess- Lidl probably does an alternative to butter that is cheaper, for example, I could buy battery eggs instead of free range, but they only do one kind of carrots so there is no leverage there.

I have a fab local market with three or four veg stalls- this weekend I paid 3.50 for three aubergines (I was desperate!)- can't remember exactly what Lidl was charging the last time I looked but I bet it was less than a quid each- so I am not convinced by the 'buy stuff from your local market they are amazeballs' point of view.

(I would like to hear about how you repot that salad stuff, if you wouldn't mind- I have just discovered it and am thinking that at a quid a tray if I can spin it out for a couple of weeks it'll be cheaper than a normal lettuce..)

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 20:35:34

Some of the ignorance here knows no bounds.

mignonette Mon 02-Sep-13 20:42:27

I wish I could buy just a few celery ribs because one of the cheapest ways to flavour pasta (and get veg into kids) is to fine dice three celery ribs, three medium carrots and three small onions then slowly fry it in oil until it is very soft and translucent in the case of the onion.

If you only have small children to feed or need only two small portions then you can freeze most of this Soffrito. To feed two kids or one adult and one child freeze half in an old butter tub etc and use the rest straight away.

All you need to do is add a fine diced garlic bulb (if you like it), some salt, a can of of plum tomatoes, a little pinch of sugar, (cheapest tomatoes) and any of these- a dash of Worcestershire sauce; a splash of red wine if you have any leftover (alcohol cooks off) or a teaspoon of Marmite. These add Umami (depth of flavour meaning no meat needed). Cook down slowly allowing the sauce to thicken but add some water to keep the sauce liquid enough to coat the pasta/rice/noodles/Ebly. Taste and season before serving. If you have herbs like Thyme or Basil, add some but it doesn't need them if you don't have a JO store cupboard!

I have taught this to all my patients who can cook. It freezes, bulks up and down well and tastes even better reheated the next day.

Adaptions- I sometimes suggest adding sliced grilled sausage or bacon; some chopped ham or a handful of fried Quorn mince. You can chuck in whatever vegetable is cheapest- fried courgettes, a handful of drained spinach, a tin of any kind of bean (Borlotti are lovely), fresh tomatoes, fried diced Butternut Squash (cheap and easy to grow from seed), peas or green beans. it doesn't matter. If you have any chile powder then chuck that in with kidney beans and you have vegetarian chile. Pitta breads can be cheaper than Baguette/crusty bread and more pleasant a carb to mop up sauce w/ so toast them and use as a filler (Tesco's 60p for 6). If you see bread stuff reduced, buy it and freeze if you have a freezer.

ExcuseTypos Mon 02-Sep-13 20:45:08

mig your idea for a MN 'official' thread for the posting of bargains/offers is fantastic. I've seen it done for Christmas bargains, it makes perfect sense to have something like a weekly one for food bargains.

Could you report your post to HQ and suggest it?

mignonette Mon 02-Sep-13 20:52:43

Silver I haven't paid full price for bread in months. I go to Waitrose and buy decent bread heavily reduced. I have eight loaves frozen all priced between 29-62p, all decent brands. I also go there twenty minutes before closing with my patients and buy up the 'fresh' bread such as baguettes for 19p each and Pave rolls for 5p. You have to be canny when you are watching the ££££ is what I tell my patients. I do it too because why spend what you do not have to?

If you get through a loaf a day, buying it reduced makes no difference to freshness TBH. And frozen is fine for sandwiches. toasted etc. I also encourage turning older bread into breadcrumbs which can be used in so many different ways and frozen too. I freeze fresh herbs by placing them in ice cube trays then filling w/ water. They stay really fresh that way.

Nigella Lawsons's 'How To Eat' book has more time/money/food saving tips in it than anything ever written by JO. There are often copies of this in Charity shops and it is also second hand on Amazon. I was pleasantly surprised by the practicality of this book considering Nigella's 'demographic' and nor does she s**t on her audience. She is what she is. Her advice on bulk making and freezing fresh baby and kids food is excellent. Nor is it horrifically expensive either.

mignonette Mon 02-Sep-13 20:54:13

Excuse Good idea I will do that.

MNHQ Could we have a 'permanent' top-of-the-talk-board money saving/cooking hints/food bargains thread?

Please?

It may just be my supermarket but has anyone else noticed in theirs that there's always a lot of frozen veg in stock, compared to the crap in other frozen sections?

OliviaMMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 02-Sep-13 21:00:59

Thanks for the idea - can't make any promises as am not a 9 to 5 er but will put to the powers that be.

Faithless12 Mon 02-Sep-13 21:01:43

friday16 biscuit are you always this offensive? No I don't have an allergy never said I did my DS does however and it does make cooking more difficult and expensive.

silverten Mon 02-Sep-13 21:03:28

Oh I agree mignonette bread can be had more cheaply (and I have a breadmaker!! Double JO points there I think) but I only need one loaf to last a week or so, so it isn't really worth my time making a specific trip to another supermarket at exactly the right point in the day to get the cheap stuff (even if it wasn't crammed full of boxes of stew and soup..) and anyway this is just fiddling with 50p or so, isn't it?

Certainly cooking from scratch is useful to be able to do and you can definitely get nicer food from cooking your own, but it really seems pretty clear from stuff people have said on here and on the other thread that it isn't the cheapest way of feeding yourself if you're really strapped for cash.

Excellent idea for the tips thread, btw.

Nancy66 Mon 02-Sep-13 21:06:21

All supermarkets have at least two mark downs a day - some have three.

If you ring your supermarket they will tell you at what times these are.

You can get some phenomenal discounts 20 mins before the store closes.

mignonette Mon 02-Sep-13 21:06:50

Thanks Olivia. We've had such great ideas but they have been spread over so many different threads. Time to consolidate them perhaps in a more eye catching way?

Badvoc Mon 02-Sep-13 21:07:48

Must just be me then.
Sometimes I simply can't be arsed to cook from scratch. I am tired, or haven't had time or am feeling lazy.
I am mc, sahm.
No benefits, no plasma tv, nothing MN can get its pants in a twist about.
There are children being gassed in Syria. That's a problem. A child having a pizza for dinner really isn't.
My cousin is a chef. You know what he eats? Beans. Lots of baked beans - on toast, with eggs, even cold on occasion. They work such long unsocialbe hours. The idea they eat well is ridiculous and their insistence we all spend hours in the kitchen using stupidly expensive ingredients to make something half the family won't eat irritates the crap out of me.
So...no. I don't do that.
I can cook. I can bake. I just find some days I would rather not.

mignonette Mon 02-Sep-13 21:10:30

Yes, the fact is that trying to shop and cook on a budget requires a lot more time invested in the act of 'hunting and gathering' and the act of 'gathering intelligence' as to where the offers are. Shopping in one store/place is not the most cost effective method either.

i do think those 50p's add up though. They do for my patients (and for me). Obviously having to buy a lot of bread, they add up faster for me than they would for somebody only eating a loaf a week.

I am a believer in looking after the pennies though and have always been from poor student days to comparatively well off. I hate food waste.

Faithless12 Mon 02-Sep-13 21:11:22

friday16- Also to answer the treatment is not to have food touching. Strange huh? When you have a child who is not gaining weight as I do (who strangely will eat anything) I have been told specifically to let him eat whatever he wants. Strangely my best friend at school had the same issue we both "got over" it together and her mum who was/is one of the strictest parents I have ever known when it comes to food just plated up our food so it wasn't touching. She didn't have chips in her house, had he best herb garden and her store cupboard would put JO to shame. We ate well with her but she understood that we couldn't have food touching it was never an issue.

Also Friday, I notice you didn't actually respond to the allergy part of my post. Why is that I wonder?

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 21:13:40

Didn't respond to my post either. hmm

mignonette Mon 02-Sep-13 21:14:13

You are right there Bad. Chefs love crap comfort foods. My DD went to NYC when she first started working as a patissiere. She got invited to some late night chef-off-duty joints. They were full of chefs troughing on the greasiest, carb loaded plates of food. They are an inherently unhealthy lot at the best of times. Not all of them, but many. And as i have pointed out before- really thin people can still have internal organs barded w/ fat.

Badvoc Mon 02-Sep-13 21:18:07

Mignonette...I have worked in many restaurants over the years and the chefs eat such crap! And I am sure JO et al are no different.
Friday...your posts are so ignorant and rude. It would be lovely for everyone if sn/sen, allergies or specific illnesses that affect appetite or ability to eat didn't exist, but many of the posters on here have to deal with these problems every day.
It makes life very very hard.
So be a dear and fuck off.
Cheers x

Faithless12 Mon 02-Sep-13 21:22:53

Bah typos aplenty in my last post. The worst thing you can do is make food an issue, so many people suffer from eating disorders I would rather re-plate a dish of food than mock my DS.

Iamsparklyknickers Mon 02-Sep-13 21:26:30

Obesity, smoking, drinking, lethargy - all linked to depression and you know why it's rampant among low-income households? Because it's fucking miserable being poor and living in a society that feels it has the right to lecture you on where you're going wrong and dismisses your worries as 'excuses'. Fuck off with your boot-straps mentality and thank your lucky stars that your hard work has paid off - it doesn't for a large chunk of society no matter how much blood and sweat they have poured into trying to make things better for themselves.

These people are not going to be ruddy-cheeked and smiling as they chow down on their 15th bowl of lentil fucking soup wondering what to spend their saved £1.50 on - they're going to bed more miserable than the day before with absolutely no reason to think they have any resources left to try and pull themselves out of the shitty situation they're in.

Why would someone in the above mindset give a shit about making their lifestyle healthier? To live to 90 in misery and worry? They're concentrating on getting their kids to adulthood and crossing their fingers they'll get better breaks than they did, not whether pulses or potatoes provide more vitamins.

Mr Oliver (who could stand to lose a couple of pounds himself) could put that judgmental energy to good use and donate his time to working with schools, nurseries and the NHS to teach people about cooking and nutrition. Hell I'd even find a little respect for him if he went after the pocket money market and focused his tv programmes at children. The lazy, pedestal gloating, pandering to the misconceptions of society that sells a few books and pays to keep him in olive oil is just sickening imho.

He's a fucking cook. If he wants to preach to society I'd suggest he goes and trains to be a social worker and comes back to us in a few years.

mignonette Mon 02-Sep-13 21:28:51

Bravo Iam bravo. Yes, he is a cook. A line cook as Anthony Bourdain once said. Never even made Sous let alone head.

expat I think all of us here have at least a basic grasp of commerce and know a little about J.O - we know he's making tons of money and building his brand, OK? Doesn't make what he's saying wrong. He's got a history of wanting to help people change their lives. Does he care more about wanting to pay for his next holiday home or something? Probably. If him speaking out educates some families about their food choices who are currently condemning their kids to a lifetime of bad physical health then that's fine by me.

sheridand Mon 02-Sep-13 21:29:05

My local market in Fenland is cheap. A bunch of peppers is 90p. A cabbage is 25p. A cauli is 50p. Thing is, it's only there 4 hours on a friday and Tuesday WHEN I'M WORKING! I can do it in the summer holidays and my shopping bill reduces massively, because the local market also includs a meat stall. But when i'm working, where's my choice?

It WAs there. Before the supermarkets. A mere two or threee years ago, we had butchers, grocers, and fishmongers. Then we were Tesco'd. All gone. Apart from the few hours a week market. There is your culprit, and oh! Jamie is hand in hand with them.

mignonette Mon 02-Sep-13 21:30:59

South But you can help without the nasty, blaming, inaccurate headline seeking sensationalism. Thousands do, every day.. I give you Camilla Batmanghelidjh.

Nancy66 Mon 02-Sep-13 21:32:31

Iamsparkly - but if the concern is making sure your children have a better life than you, isn't ensuring they are healthy a huge part of that?

Iamsparklyknickers Mon 02-Sep-13 21:36:35

Yup, I would agree with you completely Nancy, but then at the moment I'm not poor.

Long term is a luxury. Healthy short term means not hungry, clothed, and warm. If that means a ready-meal, tesco trousers and enough money left over to top up the meter to heat the water for a bath, then so be it.

That value bag of lentils will have to wait till I have the luxury of not having the next couple of days to stretch £5 out over.

Iam Why are you assuming that everyone who's poor has that mentality?

Iamsparklyknickers Mon 02-Sep-13 21:39:36

mignonette I swear I remember seeing his tv debut on This Morning or something similar and his gimmick was to make a whole meal using only his pestal and mortar. I presume he knew someone through his band (he's the drummer isn't he?) that got him a tv gig.

Sums up his career really - bashes his way through everything.

Nancy66 Mon 02-Sep-13 21:39:43

I do think some of the meals JO is pushing are unrealistic.

But I guess a baked spud with beans or tinned tomatoes on toast (healthy/easy/cheap) doesn't make for good telly.

Badvoc Mon 02-Sep-13 21:41:24

I don't care about how much money he makes!
Lets be honest, he was in the right place at the right time. A tv production company were looking for a young cook and he fit the bill with his mockney accent and catchphrases.
Well done to him.
But I do care that he thinks its ok to mock and blame low income families for feeding their kids cheap food.
Blame successive govts for stopping the teaching of cooking to kids in schools, blame vat on healthy food, blame producers of corn starch, blame if you must, but don't blame people who are trying to feed their kids as cheaply as possible and most of whom are under huge pressures most of us can't imagine.
Or blame people like me...who just can't be arsed sometimes.

Darkesteyes Mon 02-Sep-13 21:42:34

cat it sounds like you are doing an amazing job.
mignonette i was saying what youve said about Nigella to DH last week and he agreed with me I like Nigella. She doesnt treat her audience with disdain.

last month Camila B. from Kids Company who you mentioned and i also admire gave an interview about what was going on at the time of those massive riots 2 years ago. She was talking about how the young people involved had lost all hope and how the news didnt cover the fact that there was also very BASIC FOODS being looted from the shops during the riots. She could feel something was going to happen and wrote to David Cameron 10 days BEFORE the riots.
Even more disturbingly she mentioned that there are some young people who are so angry at the way they are being treated in this country that they are actually turning to Jihadism and she says riots like these WILL happen again.

Jamie Olivers unfair comments about young people wont help matters IMO.

Iamsparklyknickers Mon 02-Sep-13 21:43:55

I don't think everyone does, but I do think there's a large proportion who go through fairly long periods of feeling that way - it's something I've experienced and talked about a fair bit.

Yes it didn't last forever and for most people it doesn't, but I clearly remember feeling like that was my lot and that there was no way out. It can feel incredibly hopeless, judgement from others was not a factor in finding my motivation to get on with it and ride it out essentially.

Badvoc Mon 02-Sep-13 21:44:54

I was so annoyed by one of his books I actually posted a (negative) review on amazon!
The 30 min meal one.
The first pages detailed a long list of equipment needed to make the recipes in the book.
But fear not! Jamie assures us that all the equipment can be bought for just over £300.
Well, that's alright then.
<fumes>

Nancy66 Mon 02-Sep-13 21:46:00

Badvoc - in that case, don't guy one of Gwyneth's books whatever you do. You'll spontaneously combust.

Iamsparklyknickers Mon 02-Sep-13 21:47:24

No idea why I felt the need to add the 'essentially' there confused

Sorry, I've been listening to a lot of politicians this last week and am very easily influenced!

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 21:48:21

I have the 30 minute meal one. Dd bought it for me for Christmas.

So disappointing though and 30 minutes? Yeah right, if you have a lacky to do your prep and everything to hand and set up (not possible in my small kitchen). And the recipes I tried were very expensive and not that nice.

Badvoc Mon 02-Sep-13 21:48:25

Nancy...fear not. That will NEVER happen smile

mignonette Mon 02-Sep-13 21:50:24

Iamsparkly He was a junior line cook at The River Cafe (known for its astronomical prices charged for Cucina Povera) in Hammersmith. He was spotted by one of the many TV employees dining there and given the gig because of his cheeky chappy persona (Yeah right).

His whole background is most certainly Not in achievable affordable cooking. In fact show me any classically trained cook/chef (JO trained at Westminster, 'Alma Mater' of Gordon) with any real trained knowledge of practical, cost effective cooking. Spending your days roasting veal bones for stock and taking three days to make demi glace does not teach you how to cook for real life.

Badvoc Mon 02-Sep-13 21:52:05

Youcat...I felt the same.
I love Nigel slaters early books. 15 min meals is ace.
And delia. Good basics.
And I don't mind nigellas early books (how to eat is a good one)
But JO?
Nah.

mignonette Mon 02-Sep-13 21:52:54

Darkest Well said-

Camilla speaks truths w/ no money making agenda other than raising money for her Kids Company. She is amazing.

Nancy66 Mon 02-Sep-13 21:54:27

mignonette - but Camila B comes from a very privileged background and is public school educated. You could apply the same argument to her couldn't you?

Badvoc Mon 02-Sep-13 21:56:46

IMHO, kids need to be taught the basics and then they can build on that.
So at least one of each...
Bread
Cake
Soup
Pie
Pasta dish
Egg dish
Veggie dish
Fish dish
Roast dinner
If you teach all the above a child can feed itself and build on that skill base.
Also, they need to know about cholesterol, good fats, bad fats, vitamins and minerals, adequate hydration etc.
Why dont we do that?

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 22:00:23

I learned a bit at school (proper meals). Learned a bit at home (how to make gravy and baking). The rest I have taught myself.

My favourite cook book (I have quite a few) is my Good housekeeping one. It is packed with decent recipes that aren't too fussy.

I also like a mooch about on the bbc's Goodfood website. It has everything.

Meglet Mon 02-Sep-13 22:02:16

I borrowed the new Gwyneth book from the library, some of it looks pretty good

Badvoc Mon 02-Sep-13 22:06:16

Meglet....noooooooo! smile

mignonette Mon 02-Sep-13 22:14:00

No Nancy because she doesn't spout discriminatory reactionary bile at people. I have no issue w/ making money, no issue w/ class or background.

What I deeply object to is the ugliness of what he says and the absolute lack of research underpinning it. He is merely after personal publicity to sell books, sell his show and make more money. He is not driven by altruism in the way Camilla is. Compare their words.

silverten Mon 02-Sep-13 22:16:55

I was pondering this the other day. Pastry is all very well but I reckon it'd be good to do some sessions on the really simple stuff- give kids a choice of somethings like scrambled eggs, sardines on toast, Welsh rarebit...or a soup session (pick your veg combination from a choice of veg) With the proviso that they picked something they hadn't tried before.

Cheap ish ingredients, kids get to see and try new foods, learn how to cook some moderately wholesome snacky stuff. The point being that you can get a bit of an idea of how to put some simple things together to get something tasty, easy and quick.

mignonette Mon 02-Sep-13 22:17:47

Meglet That book is pure comedy. Charity shop copy mine is. Like i was going to put £££ in her pocket for that. But it is comedy gold. Especially her trying to apportion good/bad to maltose, fructose, glucose etc etc.

Nancy66 Mon 02-Sep-13 22:18:59

As far as I'm aware JO made one throwaway comment about big TVs which he apologised for.

Camilla B has said a few dodgy things in her time too - didn't she accuse black women of treating men badly?

Easy to be altruistic when your parents are millionaires

mignonette Mon 02-Sep-13 22:20:08

Oh and GP writes about Jo coming to her house to teach her his' Duck Ragu. Because educating the underclasses Hollywood 'Royalty' is his calling.

mignonette Mon 02-Sep-13 22:26:24

No it isn't easy to be altruistic at all. The pathway to good intentions and all that. I'd say it is harder to be altruistic when you are from a wealthy background because of the cynics. But she has nothing to sell apart from Kids Company- her life's work. JO is basically flogging products including himself off the back of 'social causes'. Far more cynical.

JO compounded his original ungliness of the soul by spouting off some more about 'IPhone users'. Which makes his 'apology' clear for what it is- a load of bull.

Give me Camilla over JO any day.

Anyway, enough already. I'm either preaching to the converted or to the remaining-unconverted. Most of us have fairly fixed opinions upon this including me at the moment although LTEveDallas once made me change my opinion about a 'cause' on another thread via her gentle argument. grin

Darkesteyes Mon 02-Sep-13 22:28:21

Hes made a hell of a lot more than one comment Nancy.

www.psychologies.co.uk/work/are-the-youth-of-today-too-lazy-to-work.html

Nancy66 Mon 02-Sep-13 22:29:52

I think what he said was that he couldn't get his head around a parent that bought their child an iPhone but claimed they couldn't afford to by them fruit and veg.

I'll take JO over CB any day. Something about her makes my skin crawl.

Darkesteyes Mon 02-Sep-13 22:30:54

And if you read the webchat he says that for ppl on a low budget there are MN threads on cooking.

But earlier his publicity for his new show and book was saying ANYONE could do it on any budget.

Rewriting history hence my earlier comment about gaslighting.

Crowler Mon 02-Sep-13 22:31:45

Jamie Oliver has nothing on Gwyneth Paltrow. She's properly unbearable.

Darkesteyes Mon 02-Sep-13 22:31:57

mignonetteMon 02-Sep-13 22:14:00

No Nancy because she doesn't spout discriminatory reactionary bile at people. I have no issue w/ making money, no issue w/ class or background.

What I deeply object to is the ugliness of what he says and the absolute lack of research underpinning it. He is merely after personal publicity to sell books, sell his show and make more money. He is not driven by altruism in the way Camilla is. Compare their words.


THIS THIS THIS.

mignonette Mon 02-Sep-13 22:38:41

Camilla Long calls GP 'The Talking Fishbone' grin

YouTheCat Mon 02-Sep-13 22:39:12

Does anyone else really want Gwynnie's kids to totally rebel against all their dietary constraints and shove their faces full of KFC?

Or is it just me? grin

By the way, the book isn't about poverty and living on the breadline - he says it himself in the interview today with Jane Garvey.

Darkesteyes Mon 02-Sep-13 22:46:25

Exactly South Which is different to whats being said in the trailer for the programme.
Which is said in HIS VOICE.. He is not being consistent.

Darkesteyes Mon 02-Sep-13 22:51:37
mignonette Mon 02-Sep-13 22:55:20

You -GP's kids were papped walking down the street w/ their Father stuffing their face on Crisps and other 'healthy' foods. Just a few days after the book launch grin.

BTW GP admits to smoking cigs once a week. It is her guilty pleasure.

mignonette Mon 02-Sep-13 23:00:19

JO- In poor families there is no left over bread to make 'simple and tasty meals w/.

And I can see from that accompanying photo, who has been eating all the pies.....whether they be hand raised pies or Greggs. I will not be lectured to on healthy eating by a man who does not control his own weight. Not all people who are overweight are that way because of too much food. But if I was as judgemental as JO says he is not, I'd be telling him to get down to the gym and to eat better. eat less wouldn't I?

Darkest I haven't seen the trailer yet but will take your word for it. IN the Radio Times interview, which I read in full, at no point in that either does he say it's a book for people on the breadline.

Just finished listening to Woman's Hour. He's right about everything and I like how he's so candid about the lack of work ethic in the youngsters he employs.

Darkesteyes Mon 02-Sep-13 23:39:57

last month Camila B. from Kids Company who you mentioned and i also admire gave an interview about what was going on at the time of those massive riots 2 years ago. She was talking about how the young people involved had lost all hope and how the news didnt cover the fact that there was also very BASIC FOODS being looted from the shops during the riots. She could feel something was going to happen and wrote to David Cameron 10 days BEFORE the riots.
Even more disturbingly she mentioned that there are some young people who are so angry at the way they are being treated in this country that they are actually turning to Jihadism and she says riots like these WILL happen again.

Jamie Olivers unfair comments about young people wont help matters IMO

Thought it warranted reposting. Camilas comments show we have a lot more to worry about than what some celebrity chef thinks of their work ethic.

Darkesteyes Mon 02-Sep-13 23:47:10

In light of your comment i thought i would c and p limiteds brilliant comment from the webchat thread.

imitedperiodonlyFri 30-Aug-13 08:58:29

I have no problem with his riches. Some consistency over how he comes by them would be nice.

For instance, he’s in favour of the right of EU citizens to seek work in any member state because it gives him a steady supply of what he calls our hard-working Eastern European friends, who are so much more diligent than British workers.

However, he’s not in favour of the European Working Time Directive, presumably because that costs him money.

He’s not entirely clear on where he stands on workfare and zero hours contracts, though he set up 15 using unpaid jobseekers, which sounds an awful lot like workfare to me. So it would be fair to assume he favours a light Government touch WRT business.

But he wants a very heavy-handed Government approach when it comes to school meals and the wider education of people about food. Some might say that expecting the whole country to subsidise other people’s children’s food and telling people what to eat is very Nanny State indeed.

How come it’s good to feed a child a State-subsidised meal at school but not to protect or extend the employment rights of that child’s parents, so that they might be able to afford to feed their family without State or charitable help? When does a young person stop being worthy of our sympathy – is it when they start working for him and their mummies get concerned about their hours?

Jamie Oliver may well care passionately about some issues. But there are complex reasons behind poverty of all kinds - income or ambition - and if they don’t fit his prejudices, he lashes out.

It's a very unattractive trait in someone whose entire image is based on his engaging personality. And when he trashes the weak it's actually bullying.

And I strongly believe that what drives his a la carte approach is because he makes money championing one cause, and also makes money by ignoring others.

Darkesteyes Mon 02-Sep-13 23:48:05

Especially this.

So it would be fair to assume he favours a light Government touch WRT business.

But he wants a very heavy-handed Government approach when it comes to school meals and the wider education of people about food. Some might say that expecting the whole country to subsidise other people’s children’s food and telling people what to eat is very Nanny State indeed.

How come it’s good to feed a child a State-subsidised meal at school but not to protect or extend the employment rights of that child’s parents, so that they might be able to afford to feed their family without State or charitable help? When does a young person stop being worthy of our sympathy – is it when they start working for him and their mummies get concerned about their hours?

OhDearNigel Tue 03-Sep-13 00:01:06

here is a typical bedsit where i live. It's a deprived town and this is what a lot of people live in. Most of my clients do.

Now maybe someone can tell me where they would start making bread, cookimg lots of food and freezing a selection of cooking herbs and other reduced food in this flat. Which you may well be sharing with a couple of kidd

OhDearNigel Tue 03-Sep-13 00:11:13

OhDear we don't live in a one bed, but have similar facilities. Also currently spend £20 a week on food, and £3 on snacks to keep them going. I'm sure I could cook cheaper if I could afford to cook for a long time or had space for loads of bits and bobs. As it is, to make sure my children feel full up, we buy frozen (or canned) food alternating with 'healthy' (for the cost, shit) food. The healthy days are a lot less filling as cooked meals generally take longer than, for example, a short time to heat up or whatever, so is more expensive in that way too. We do it to make sure they don't just have unhealthy food, but to afford this, it's usually very little. I would prefer my children to not have homemade food but feel full(er). To do this, I need cheap food which doesn't take much to prepare- because we don't have the facilities or money for bills.

Healthy food is hard, expensive and needs a good kitchen. A lot of people won't be able to make continuously healthy food.

grumpyoldbat Tue 03-Sep-13 01:07:11

It never ceases to amaze me how many people seem to be devoid of empathy.

I realise I'm considered to be a member of the feckless, lazy, poor group that some people love to hate but I do have enough sense to know that one size does not fit all.

I tend to prioritise rent over food because I cannot face the prospect of being homeless again. I prioritise my commute over my food though not my dd's food.

Did you know that in temporary accommodation the only cooking 'facilities' the authorities are obliged to provide is a microwave. Then when you do get some where to live you often have to start from scratch with everything. I know of people who buy ready meals daily not because they like them, not because they don't have cooking skills but because they don't have a fridge freezer and they only have a microwave to cook with but they crave hot food.

When we lost everything and were lucky enough to be given a chance to start again all we had in the kitchen were cupboards and units. Our budget was and still is very tight so it took us a long time (and borrowing money from family blush) to build up a store cupboard again and to have something to cook it on.

I am actually a decent cook even though I had to teach myself. I also love cooking. I still lack equipment so I take longer to make things than recipes suggest eg I don't have a mixer so do all my mixing by hand.

Now things are a lot better I'll make double portions and freeze half as it's cheaper per portion. However I realise not everyonehas a freezer and of those who do not all can keep the electricity on constantly to ensure an even temperature.

slapandpickle Tue 03-Sep-13 01:35:59

/wave ohdearnigel grin

That road is fking horrible

And that's the best deal on housing most people round here are likely to get, a kettle a microwave and if they are v v lucky a hotplate. I actually saw an ad a while back for a room in a house at 65 quid pw (LHA rate) for someone in work only... Rent to be topped up with 10 hours housework a week for the rest of the paying guests angry

And then you have a choice of a 3.20 bus ticket to the big supermarkets... Or spar and their non stop special offer pot noodle and sausage rolls.

slapandpickle Tue 03-Sep-13 01:39:11

It also angers me that the kitchen 'premium' on rent is so high, my flat is only a bit bigger than the one you linked but it's nearly 100 quid a month more because it has a full kitchen. And if I was unemployed I couldn't afford the kitchen cost.

zatyaballerina Tue 03-Sep-13 01:46:08

I'm a bit of a food nazi, it's expensive. I walk through the aisles half tempted to buy the cheap crap on offer.

It irritates me to hear nonsense about big tv's and phones, it doesn't take a genius to work out that poor people tend to live in shit areas where it's not safe to go out at night or let their children roam the streets at any time and their limited funds don't stretch to funding an active social life and interesting activities, therefore it makes sense to invest in home entertainment. A large screen tv costs as much as a few nights out yet provides years of entertainment for people who don't have much else. As for 'designer clothes', I've never seen a poor person wear Pradahmm Thanks to certain cheap clothing producers, most people can afford to put clothes on their back and thank fuck for that.

It's nasty to begrudge people for having a television and wearing clothes (the latter just bizarre actually), I don't want to see poor people wearing sacks or worse, naked and selling all their meagre goods so they can afford a few weeks of 'acceptable' food buying. Poor people are entitled to seek comfort, entertainment and dignity as much as anyone else.

The dehumanisation of the poor in the British media is frightening, although obviously necessary for a government that wants to dismantle the welfare state. If people hate the poor, they won't care for the consequences of extra taxes on the gas/electricity bills, reductions or even elimination in disability/jobseekers payments and other social safety nets.

Jamie Oliver doesn't have to worry about bills, he has no clue about the type of stress that poverty induces because he's never experienced it. It's easy to judge when your opinion is based on theory rather than experience. In theory we are all experts, the reality of someone elses shoes is much more complicated.

MorrisZapp Tue 03-Sep-13 07:31:28

He didn't say designer clothes. He said branded clothes. So not Prada etc but presumably branded sportswear, logo tshirts etc.

Oblomov Tue 03-Sep-13 07:33:54

Sometimes I batch cook loads and we eat all sorts of lovely meals. Sometimes I am inspired, and buy salads, pork schnitzels with minted new potatoes etc.
But often, I just can't get inspired about food. No matter how many tv programmes I watch, or how many times I go onto the GoodFood website/ any other website .......

I stand in the middle of the supermarket, with my shopping list that includes basics:
Bread
milk
grapes
bananas
golden delicious
satsumas
youghurt tubes ( for summer club packed lunch boxes)
crisps

And realises, that I am at a loss as to what to buy.

And sometimes I plan, to cook, lasagne, or sausage casserole. So thats' on the shopping list. And sometimes dh and I are so bored of food, we can't even think of anything we want to eat. And I have no meals planned, and I am going there desperate for inspiration.

First I head to the reduced section, praying that I will see something I fancy, some reduced.... meat, cod, something, that i can then add, some new potatoes, and brocolli and carrots to.
And wander up and down the meat aisles, doing the same.

And finally. I grab some things and make 2 meals out of it.

Sounds terrible, when I write it down.
But that really is how I shop. A lot of the time.

So I can't see that anything Jo has to say is going to help me out here.

Badvoc Tue 03-Sep-13 07:39:38

So...
According to JO the poor should be eating his recipes by candlelight, no tv in sight, no gadgets for the children, no mobile phones (which if you haven't got a landline are fairly necessary, especially if you are job hunting).
Is that about right?
Because for a lot of families that's the choice...expensive food vs lighting, heating and clothes for their kids.
He is a twat if the highest order.

MinimalistMommi Tue 03-Sep-13 08:15:52

Obesity, smoking, drinking, lethargy - all linked to depression and you know why it's rampant among low-income households? Because it's fucking miserable being poor and living in a society that feels it has the right to lecture you on where you're going wrong and dismisses your worries as 'excuses'. Fuck off with your boot-straps mentality and thank your lucky stars that your hard work has paid off - it doesn't for a large chunk of society no matter how much blood and sweat they have poured into trying to make things better for themselves.

These people are not going to be ruddy-cheeked and smiling as they chow down on their 15th bowl of lentil fucking soup wondering what to spend their saved £1.50 on - they're going to bed more miserable than the day before with absolutely no reason to think they have any resources left to try and pull themselves out of the shitty situation they're in.

Why would someone in the above mindset give a shit about making their lifestyle healthier? To live to 90 in misery and worry? They're concentrating on getting their kids to adulthood and crossing their fingers they'll get better breaks than they did, not whether pulses or potatoes provide more vitamins.

Mr Oliver (who could stand to lose a couple of pounds himself) could put that judgmental energy to good use and donate his time to working with schools, nurseries and the NHS to teach people about cooking and nutrition. Hell I'd even find a little respect for him if he went after the pocket money market and focused his tv programmes at children. The lazy, pedestal gloating, pandering to the misconceptions of society that sells a few books and pays to keep him in olive oil is just sickening imho.

He's a fucking cook. If he wants to preach to society I'd suggest he goes and trains to be a social worker and comes back to us in a few years.

If it wasn't spent on the 'fags and booze' then they wouldn't be chowing down on their 15th bowl of lentil soup. grin You're painting the people on a very low income all with the same brush, down, out and depressed. And the children 'will get better breaks then they did' if they're fed some sort of healthy diet. For a start, they'll be able to concentrate in school...

MinimalistMommi Tue 03-Sep-13 08:16:57

Sorry forgot to say that was for IamSparkly

mignonette Tue 03-Sep-13 08:48:15

Most of my patients on low income or benefits neither drink nor smoke. Some do. Most struggle to feed themselves, heat their homes and pay rent/mortgage. Many struggle because they fall just above the threshold for help.

To portray all poorer people as eating badly because they spend it on 'fags and booze' is disingenuous. Just look at the subsidised alcohol in the Houses of Commons and the unhealthy tub thumpers contained within (our acting prime Minister for one who looks like he ate the pies that JO couldn't manage) and you'll see that. We subsidise that lifestyle too.

I cannot believe the stupidity of the big TV argument, an argument that my nine year old nephew could see through "But what if they bought their TV before they lost their job, or when they had money or it was given to them or is years old?" My goodness, support JO all you like but surely you can see what a stupid inaccurate meme this has become? TV is a one off expense that'll last years whereas the grinding problem of feeding a family goes on day after day.

And also not everybody is as food obsessed as a celeb chef/supermarket-bitch. After all they do have an agenda to push food porn onto us don't they? There are so many ways to be a bad parent and not feeding your children wonderful fresh food every day is not the worst of them. My parents fed me wonderfully, I lived all over the World. But they were awful, neglectful abusive and cruel. That damaged me more than plates of frozen chips would ever have done. And of all the people I have worked w/, most have issues from their childhood of some form or another. And none of them have ever been preoccupied w/ 'Mummy and Daddy fed me processed stuff'.

BoffinMum Tue 03-Sep-13 08:49:44

I went to a security briefing event through my work recently. I can't talk about the details but I was amazed to hear that there are clever technical means of tracking criminals engaging in looting, muggings and so on based on the fact that they actually only possess one outfit.

One outfit.

It may be branded but it's the only one they have.

Nancy66 Tue 03-Sep-13 08:52:20

Mignonette - surely you can see that having 8 year olds who weigh 13 stone is not a good thing?

Having a whole generation of children with a life expectancy shorter than that of their own parents/grandparents is not a good thing?

You're trivialising an important issue.

MorrisZapp Tue 03-Sep-13 08:53:27

See, I don't get why lentil soup is 'lentil fucking soup'. I love lentil soup and make it most weeks in the winter. I like bread, baked potatoes etc too. These are nice, tasty foods. I don't usually like typical 'junk food' meals though I have them now and then.

Decent, cheap food isn't punishment. It's perfectly good. I've eaten like this since I was a student. It's what I prefer.

I don't see why fags and shit food are some kind of tasty reward.

mignonette Tue 03-Sep-13 08:56:02

That's interesting BoffinMum. My sons' proudest moment was finding a black Prada T shirt in the local Hospice charity shop for £3. These charity shops are full of decent sportswear and although people may save to buy new at full price, many do not. And there are such things as birthdays and Christmas and the use of credit to buy these items. Appearances can be deceiving and closed minded people are deceived.

I forgot to add that I am sure those people who are 'feckless enough to dare to have an I Phone whilst earning less than 20K or whatever threshold is deemed too low by Mr Oliver will make sure they do not waste any money on any soon to be released JO App.

MinimalistMommi Tue 03-Sep-13 08:58:28

mig I think if a child is fed high fat, processed food day in day out it can be a form of neglect/abuse if they become obese or seriously obese. Their are some parents who are threatened to have their children taken away for this very reason if it gets to serious levels.

MinimalistMommi Tue 03-Sep-13 09:00:41

Morris I agree. Rubbish, greasy food is seen as a treat in society it seems. What is wrong with a jacket potato, baked beans and a scattering of cheese? Tasty, wholesome and barely any work to put on the table.

mignonette Tue 03-Sep-13 09:02:49

Nancy NO I do not want to see overweight children. But the point I am making is that you do not have to be so insulting in order to achieve anything. JO is merely using 'shock and awe' tactics to garner publicity for his show. His team saw a good business opportunity-'yes let's write a cookbook for the poorer' (although it turned out not to be by his own awkward admission) and he bit.

Health Promotion theory has shown that shock tactics and 'victim blaming' does not work. Any entry level health promotions officer will tell you that (disclaimer-I have an MA in health Prom/MH prom).

This is NOT the way to tackle it. JO lacks the ability to ride the horse he mounted. He is not in it for the long haul. He is making money for his business. And he is using nasty generalisations to do it. Oh and he is about as sincere as a dodgy used car salesman in his 'apology' seeing as he merely switched TV's for I Phones.

MinimalistMommi Tue 03-Sep-13 09:03:20

mig but why choose an iPhone if someone can't afford to eat properly? I'm fortunate that we can afford to eat a healthy diet, I don't have an iPhone though, just a £10 pay as you go phone which never has any credit on it but I have it incase the school needs to contact me when I'm out and about.

Nancy66 Tue 03-Sep-13 09:06:36

what is wrong with saying that a parent who buys a child an iPhone can probably afford to buy them fruit and veg as well?

Baffling that so many people are so quick to make excuses for others

DelayedActionMouseMaker Tue 03-Sep-13 09:06:40

I've not read the whole thread,but I had a look at his new book last night and the first recipe I came across had chicken, chorizo AND prawns in it. Which of course are not at all too expensive if you are on the poverty line. hmm

Therealamandaclarke Tue 03-Sep-13 09:06:54

zatya what you say is both true and moving.

Crowler Tue 03-Sep-13 09:07:40

See, I don't get why lentil soup is 'lentil fucking soup'.

Lentils are middle class. So is cilantro. It's a form of class warfare.

mignonette Tue 03-Sep-13 09:08:09

Yes it is a form of abuse. Yes it needs to be tackled. But using TV cooks is not the way. It diverts attention from the real problems.

Why is the government not addressing the growing problem of 'hidden' corn syrup in foods? Why not tackle the insidious influence of supermarkets and their central distribution chains? Why not ban the hedge fund speculation upon basic food commodities? Since when did it become morally okay to gamble upon crops? Why not tackle the disgusting profits made by supermarkets when farmers are barely paid a living price for their produce? Why not look at how we price foods? What should be cheap and what should not? Why not address the lack of domestic science in schools? Why not look at increasing physical education in school and incorporating more physical activity into learning?

Nancy66 Tue 03-Sep-13 09:09:25

I think using TV cooks is a very good way.

MinimalistMommi Tue 03-Sep-13 09:10:06

Delayed after watching his show last night it wasn't about people on the poverty line, as much as I love Jamie Oliver her shouldn't have kept using the tag line 'for people on any budget' because it obviously wasn't the case.

MinimalistMommi Tue 03-Sep-13 09:10:40

her he

MinimalistMommi Tue 03-Sep-13 09:11:33

crowler lentils are not MIDDLE CLASS for goodness sake. They're lentils.

LtEveDallas Tue 03-Sep-13 09:12:41

mig but why choose an iPhone if someone can't afford to eat properly?

Maybe they had it on contract before the bottom dropped out of their world.

Maybe Vodafone wouldn't let them cancel their contract.

Maybe it came as a freebie with a Laptop (that their child needed for school)

Maybe a 'better off' relative gifted it to them (as I did with my Neice's Blackberry)

Maybe they got it off a Buy and Sell site (the one where I am currently has a 3rd Gen iPhone for sale for £30)

Thats completely off the top of my head - if I thought about it I'm sure I could come up with more - I'm surprised that an intelligent poster can't do the same. I doubt very much that the person JO is slagging off (now that he has moved on from slagging of TV lady) got up one morning and thought "I can only afford to either feed my family or buy an iPhone - I think I'll buy the iPhone because my family just aren't that important to me"

MorrisZapp Tue 03-Sep-13 09:13:34

Exactly, Growler. I grew up in the 70s and 80s, my parents were utterly broke. Properly broke, not just playing at being frugal. I never once had shit junk food. We had wall to wall lentils, veg etc.

We wore jumble sale clothes and ate home made bread (wasnt very good). We had no money for days out etc so were encouraged to make our own entertainment, which we did.

My mum hated being poor, but I never saw her turn to shit food, fags or much booze. Her pleasures were very different.

Crowler Tue 03-Sep-13 09:15:19

crowler lentils are not MIDDLE CLASS for goodness sake. They're lentils.

I was kidding.

Therealamandaclarke Tue 03-Sep-13 09:15:29

The thing is, IMHO, it is true that some people prioritise their nails/ clothes/ trinkets etc over their children's food. That is true. Lots of ppl I know who are in receipt of some kind of benefit spend much more on "bling" (fwoabw) for themselves than I would and eat crap food pretty much all the time. Some ppl are shallow and feckless and probably should prioritise decent food for their Hudson over hair extension and fake tan for themselves.

But. Food is expensive. And plenty of people are just poor and really can't afford to eat well. Fact.
And this demonisation of ppl who are poor is horrible. Iris unkind and inaccurate and unhelpful to make sweeping statements that suggest ppl should have no pleasure outside of what some middle class chef (albeit with an essex accent) thinks they are deserving of. It's not just JO. Lots of ppl are judgey like this and it's very saddening IMHO.

higgle Tue 03-Sep-13 09:15:32

Well I watched part of the show last night and I had to change channels after 5 minutes. Firstly he was making out that he had just discovered frozen vegetables and talking about them as if they were something wonderful and strange and assuming we didn't know they were cheap. Then he started on a fish pie with 3 sorts of fish and used a food processor to mush up peas to put in the mash - WTF!!! what a ot of extra work and washing up for funny green mash - I'd rather have my peas on the side.

mignonette Tue 03-Sep-13 09:15:53

MIni An Iphone may well have been bought as a present. A one off gift. Food is a relentless expense. But yes there are families that buy this stuff and choose to eat unhealthily therefore forcing their children to do so too.

However JO is in the business of generalising and stereotyping. It gets him headlines. If he really cared, he'd just get on with it without the headlines. That is why people are resistant to his 'philanthropy'. They see through it for what it is. No need for the TV show and the publicity. He could have just made another lovely show gamboling through another country, meeting lovely people and cooking w/ them. Then he could have used the large fee/income from publicity to fund private initiatives and research into this issue. That would be convincing. But he didn't. Because like most celebrities I imagine he has become accustomed to the limelight, the external validation, the Yes-People....He has to have all that. But he has gone too far now.

And a little bird told me that people are going into book shops and hiding his books behind other authors, behind displays and under the shelving.......

MinimalistMommi Tue 03-Sep-13 09:17:28

My mum had lots of children, again, we never had junk food, ever. It was frozen veg, pasta, lentils, baked beans, home baked bread by hand (every single day) My mum used to us crates of apples, because that was the only fruit we could afford at the time.

grumpyoldbat Tue 03-Sep-13 09:20:43

One of the things that really pisses me off is the sweeping generalisation that anyone on a tight food budget is on a tight budget because they smoke and drink all the money away. I was condescendingly told on another thread I should just quit smoking and stop buying booze. I don't smoke or drink.

It's like people deliberately misunderstand statistics so they can have another stick with which to beat those they regard as scum. Higher rates of smoking does not equal everyone smokes.

I also get sick of having to justify my existence, every action, every belonging. Sick of being flamed for things I'm not even guilty of.

My food plan for when I go back to Uni includes dried pasta, fish fingers and frozen veg. Please don't flame me too much I'll not be giving up cooking completely. It's just that Mon to Friday I'll be in uni 9-5 then 3 nights a week I'll work 6-10 plus longer shifts Saturday and Sunday. Being lazy and stupid I know I'm going to want some nights where I don't have to chop, stir, knead dough etc. I also know that being out the house 7-7 2 days a week, 7-11 3 days a week and 1-11 sat and Sun is going to reduce the time available for batch cooking bearing in mind I need to spend time with my DDs, clean, do the laundry and study.

sillyoldfool Tue 03-Sep-13 09:20:49

I have an iPhone, on a contract that only costs me £12 a month, it was 'free' when I took out the contract. Means I can phone/text/email/use the Internet. ALOT cheaper than having a landline/laptop etc.
We also have a fancy looking tv, it's not big but it's a Sony flat screen thing, my parents bought it for us years ago.
These things are meaningless if you're trying to judge how our money is spent each month.

MinimalistMommi Tue 03-Sep-13 09:21:11

mig but if an iPhone was bought as gift, I'm assuming the contract or credit has to be paid for or is that a gift as well. hmm

mignonette Tue 03-Sep-13 09:28:05

Yes it can be a gift. Like my children's were. If I lost my job I'd have to somehow afford to keep paying them. Look at the demographics on credit use by the less well off and you will see that an awful lot of 'luxury goods' are bought on credit by people who juggle because they do not want their children to be different to their friends. You can also have a mobile phone w/ an internet bundle on PAYG too.

Also try existing in this world without the internet. Even school work these days is heavily dependent upon it as are university/college syllabuses w/ lecture content ad further reading all online.

As i have already said, yes there are feckless people that prioritise material goods over a decent diet. But insulting the majority who do not as Jo has done with his ignorant generalising has not helped, will never help.

Nancy66 Tue 03-Sep-13 09:30:31

Children do not need iPhones.

grumpyoldbat Tue 03-Sep-13 09:32:17

I don't have an I phone, the phone I do have is £10 per month, I never go over my call limit so don't get charged more. It's mostly so I am contactable eg school and work because they like to alter shifts at the last minute, not turning up for a shift would lose me a lot more than £10.

We have a computer, we saved for it, it's second hand. It's used for studying and job hunting. Is that Ok? Do I need to apologise.

Our TV is 16inch is that OK?

I have no branded clothes. DH has a jumper and 2 t shirts which were all presents, dd1 has a branded t shirt that I bought from a charity shop, dd2 has a branded t shirt that's a hand me down from dd1 who herself received it as a present from her Gran. Is that Ok.

FreudiansSlipper Tue 03-Sep-13 09:32:36

i too can not understand why he is getting such a negative response

while i agree if you are buying meals such as meat pie and lasagna you can buy them cheaper than cook them from scratch there are plenty of healthy cheap meals that are far better for you. a basic tomato sause that you can add veg, cubes of cheese, bacon, mince served with pasta or rice is cheaper and far better for you and can be cooked and frozen

we are making excuses for laziness. i do not always want to bother cooking at times i do get something to stick in the microwave but after i feel pretty crap when i know it would have taken 10 minutes to cook a healthy meal

beans on wholemeal toast, beans and cheese on toast, egg and beans on toast are all far better for you than a cheap meat pie

MinimalistMommi Tue 03-Sep-13 09:36:52

mig and grumpy but there were people up thread that were saying apparently people on the breadline couldn't afford a £1.00 pot of herbs to last weeks....but it seems iPhones can be budgeted for hmm

MinimalistMommi Tue 03-Sep-13 09:37:40

Well said freud

Nancy66 Tue 03-Sep-13 09:40:12

People were linking to pictures of bedsits on Rightmove earlier....!

DelayedActionMouseMaker Tue 03-Sep-13 09:41:02

Realised it wasn't just about people on the poverty line, but in no way is it for people on any budget but a big one. We have a decent family income, but a dish with the ingredients I mentioned would be for a special occasion for us!

YouTheCat Tue 03-Sep-13 09:43:52

By that reckoning then, is Grumpy just not trying hard enough?

She doesn't sound lazy or feckless to me. Sounds more like she doesn't get 5 minutes to sit down let alone meal plan and go bargain hunting.

FreudiansSlipper Tue 03-Sep-13 09:46:51

i think grumpy and the hours she is doing is not the norm (not sure if you are single or not, if not partner should help out)

at uni 9-5 5 days a week gosh what degree are you doing?

sillyoldfool Tue 03-Sep-13 09:51:09

My iPhone was the cheapest deal I could get at the time. I had a sim only deal before with a v cheap phone and it cost me more.
We eat well, I meal plan to the nth degree and we're rich compared to where we were a few years ago, but I'm just trying to make the point that an iPhone doesn't mean money being thrown away.

YouTheCat Tue 03-Sep-13 09:51:38

But there will be plenty of other people out there juggling work/study/kids.

Badvoc Tue 03-Sep-13 09:51:44

It's social racism.
And I will never watch TV programme of his again or buy one of his books and I hope I am not the only one.
He is a semi literate twat who has really put his big fat foot in it this time.
His PR people won't be able to manage this cock up.

mignonette Tue 03-Sep-13 09:53:04

Min as far as I know, herbs weren't on the Christmas list grin... However I do teach patients how to grow herbs. There are plenty of people who have neither iphones or herbs you know.Many have cheap ten pound basic mobiles instead.

Fact is JO makes stupid generalisations which cause hurt and shame to people. There are extremes of behaviour at both ends of the financial scale. But JO takes those extremes, turns them into headlines to sell a book to a named demographic. He then has to backtrack and admit it is not suitable for for poor people. A monumental PR screw up.

Kaffir Lime Leaves, anchovies, EVOO, Balsamic, beef brisket, are expensive luxury foods, not 'store cupboard basics. Neither does he seem to grasp that slow cooking in a gas oven is not free!

Anyway this debate is getting boring because of the concrete thinking that I am seeing in response to the point I am making.

No, not every bloody iphone is bought sensibly I am sure. I am not saying that all poor people cook like Nigella using park sourced 'herbs' (thanks for that gem JO, you certainly were starting to flounder when you made that suggestion) and cheap fresh ingredients sourced from their local markets.

Yes, there are selfish feckless people who neglect their children through diets. But JO has demonised decent people through his lazy, cruel stereotyping of the poor. He is Daily Mail personified and didn't he once admit to 'liking' the UKIP POV?

YouTheCat Tue 03-Sep-13 09:55:26

I'd say having some kind of mobile (doesn't have to be an iphone) especially if you don't have a landline, is pretty much essential versus owning a pot of herbs.

usualsuspect Tue 03-Sep-13 09:57:52

I think his PR people will handle it ok,just read this thread.

Plenty of people on here think the same as him.

The 'feckless poor' bashers have found another leader to blindly follow.

They will buy his books and display them on the self next to the aga.

twistyfeet Tue 03-Sep-13 09:57:56

lentils are fucking disgusting IMO and when I eat them I get acid reflux for days and need to take gaviscon. Now gaviscon is expensive so I'd have to factor that into my budget menu. The there is the explosive diarrrhea....how much are bog rolls?
wink
Cant eat tomatoes either. Or cheap junk. Stupid stomach.

But lentils. bleurgh.

FreudiansSlipper Tue 03-Sep-13 09:58:26

i am juggling work,studying and being on my own with a child

i do not study those hours but once ds goes back on thursday it will again but a constant juggle with time

and this last year at times money has been very short

usualsuspect Tue 03-Sep-13 09:58:28

Shelf*

sillyoldfool Tue 03-Sep-13 10:01:08

Exactly youthecat school communicate with parents exclusively via email and text, job applications are mostly online etc, I could do all those things on my phone if I needed to. As it is we have a landline and a computer which we can afford, if we couldn't keeping my phone going would make the most sense.

FreudiansSlipper Tue 03-Sep-13 10:02:08

it is not about feckless poor bashing

why can we not address the problem of children not eating healthy good meals

we have a problem with obesity in this country. children are not being given good meals at home yet many cry they do not have the money to buy good food or make healthy meals. simple truth is they can make cheap healthy meals it takes effort

usualsuspect Tue 03-Sep-13 10:03:51

No no no, poor people should use a tin can and string.

Or maybe a carrier pigeon.

PeanutButterMmm Tue 03-Sep-13 10:05:55

I agree jamie is shooting himself in the foot the way he is going about things but the issue still rings true.

We do need to start looking at the fact there are parents out there who are feeding their kids utter shit food everyday whilst prioritising other unnecessary things and something needs to be done to address this issue otherwise we will have more obesity in children along with other health problems which will go into adulthood.

I agree selling a pricey book and a tv show is not the way to go about this issue, we need education about food and nutrition in schools along with proper cookery lessons as well as lessons on how to budget. Supermarkets are a big part of the problem also and need looking at as well as all these fast food places with deals popping up giving everyone a bad relationship with food.

The issue is there and jamie, although gone the wrong way about it, has voiced this issue and if everyone continues to moan about jamie whilst making every excuse they can think of to deny the issue then it will always remain in the shadows and get progressively worse.