To think that it is NOT acceptable for people to call other scum just because they support another football team.

(96 Posts)
Ilovemyself Sun 01-Sep-13 17:28:21

It pisses me off big time. It is allegedly acceptable to do this because it is only football.

I know people that would not normally call anyone scum, but when it comes to match time it is all over their facebook status.

I also think people should realise its just a bloody game - not a matter of life and death.

Rant over.

Morgause Sun 01-Sep-13 17:29:45

YANBU

It's a game, people need to get a grip.

Let me guess...The North London Derby.

Football is more than life and death, it is a way of life but every team needs fans or there would be no league to play!!

cushtie335 Sun 01-Sep-13 17:31:50

I hate football and all the stupid behaviour it encompasses.

natwebb79 Sun 01-Sep-13 17:31:58

Depends if it's said in football canter jest. My pal supports a different team and refers to my team as the scummers. It's just a joke. If it's said with malice then that's another matter.

CockyFox Sun 01-Sep-13 17:33:15

It's only acceptable if the above mentioned scum are Villa fans.

Seriously though, although it can get a bit scary with a minority of fans, for most it is light hearted banter.

Ilovemyself Sun 01-Sep-13 17:34:10

Nope not the north London Derby. It's every fucking weekend. Some family refer to pretty much any other team as scum, and the things they wish would happen to them is revolting.

Even if it is "in jest" it is pretty poor taste.

SilverApples Sun 01-Sep-13 17:35:31

I hate the gang aggression between football supporters, and the situation has improved enormously since I was a teenager in the 70s. The sheer violence of language and acts.
The cost in policing and A&E over the years, and the climate of fear in the general public. Hate it.
I'd have all games at a league level with no crowd and televised only.

morethanpotatoprints Sun 01-Sep-13 17:37:07

Its the same in Rugby league with a few extra choice words included.
It makes me laugh how passionate the fans are, especially my dh and dc. grin
Everybody who doesn't support their team are scum. grin
I don't think it's unreasonable at all, funny, yes.

mrspremise Sun 01-Sep-13 17:37:43

Agree with you completely, OP, I work in a school and to hear this kind of talk from children as young as six makes you wonder what the point is sometimes if this is the sort of messages they are getting about reasonable behaviour outside the classroom hmm

PiggyPlumPie Sun 01-Sep-13 17:39:07

My 70yo DM got quite badly verbally abused by a rival fan just last week. She was waiting for my DSis at the train station when this thug turned on her.

As he walked away he was stopped by the police and as he still thought he'd done no wrong he was arrested and charged.

In this case I think it is acceptable to call this person scum - I mean who abuses a 70 yo woman just because they are not wearing the same shirt as you?

SilverApples Sun 01-Sep-13 17:40:12

We've had some parents banned from Saturday football for juniors, they are given the choice of dropping off their children and leaving. Because they are incapable of supporting their children appropriately without yelling and aggressive language.
Zero tolerance by the coaches makes for a better atmosphere.

ILetHimKeep20Quid Sun 01-Sep-13 17:44:35

Yanbu

I travelled down to London for the England Scotland game with my nephew who is 14

Our seat in the Scotland support was right next to the home fans. One particular charmer spent the whole second half making cut throat gestures to my own nephew.

kim147 Sun 01-Sep-13 17:45:34

I don't think you get this in Rugby Union or cricket. Fans from both sides happily mix in the stadium and in the bars before that.

It is only a game.

cantdoalgebra Sun 01-Sep-13 17:46:34

Abusers and bullys often try to excuse their behaviour by saying that they were "only joking".

Teeb Sun 01-Sep-13 17:51:17

I'm sure there was a relevant statistic that said domestic violence rates sky rocket during the six nations rugby tournament. Just to put a spin on the 'rugby fans are such great people, not like those awful football fans' myth.

I just don't get the mentality.
I've been a Spurs fan for 25+ years. I love the banter but I would never abuse someone because they support another team. It would be so boring if we all liked the same things.

I've walked out of the Tottenham supporters pub after a couple of oafs started ridiculing a couple of young German fans who had come to see their team play away.
As I walked out, an oaf grabbed me by the arm and said 'It's alright Darling, you don't have to leave. You're one of us'

I replied 'And I don't want to be associated with a Knuckle dragger like you. You shame MY club.'

I took the Germans to the pub over the road where all teams gather and we had a laugh and a few pints before the match.

BadLad Sun 01-Sep-13 17:52:46

I don't think you get this in ... cricket.

Well then you need to read more about India and Pakistan matches.

Here is a report about a particularly nasty incident at a cricket match - a bit dated, but about the worst I can think of.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1424010.stm

kim147 Sun 01-Sep-13 18:00:32

DV definitely rises during certain football matches - I think Celtic vs Rangers games sees a massive rise.

kim147 Sun 01-Sep-13 18:02:20

badlad I was thinking more about matches in the UK.

SilverApples Sun 01-Sep-13 18:04:30

Lords is in London, Kim.

kim147 Sun 01-Sep-13 18:07:20

One report from 12 years ago does give the impression that there is not much violence / hatred at cricket matches.

BadLad Sun 01-Sep-13 18:08:41

Well, the match I linked to took place at Lords'.

But anyway, there are far fewer competitive cricket matches in the UK, far fewer fans, especially at the county level, and it is a much smaller industry that football. So cricket is going to attract fewer yobs.

Compare that to countries like India and Pakistan, where cricket it extremely popular and success brings national pride more than any other sport, then they will take it more seriously and behave worse when they lose.

Some of the Barmy Army's (England Cricket team travelling supporters) chants at Australians are also either unacceptable or just banter, depending on your perspective. See the "If your grandad was deported, clap your hands", and, to the tune of Yellow Submarine "You all live in a penal colony".

BadLad Sun 01-Sep-13 18:08:43

Well, the match I linked to took place at Lords'.

But anyway, there are far fewer competitive cricket matches in the UK, far fewer fans, especially at the county level, and it is a much smaller industry that football. So cricket is going to attract fewer yobs.

Compare that to countries like India and Pakistan, where cricket it extremely popular and success brings national pride more than any other sport, then they will take it more seriously and behave worse when they lose.

Some of the Barmy Army's (England Cricket team travelling supporters) chants at Australians are also either unacceptable or just banter, depending on your perspective. See the "If your grandad was deported, clap your hands", and, to the tune of Yellow Submarine "You all live in a penal colony".

kim147 Sun 01-Sep-13 18:13:40

I've been to some international rugby matches (and a few international cricket matches) and the atmosphere has been great. A small police presence, fans mixing and no shouting at the other fans.

I wanted to take DS to a local football match - I've been advised by friends to take him to the family section as there's no swearing there.

I work in a school and I'm amazed to hear some of the attitudes pupils have to other teams. I work with children of Pakistani heritage and you should hear the hatred some of them have towards India when the cricket was one.

SilverApples Sun 01-Sep-13 18:17:16

'I work with children of Pakistani heritage and you should hear the hatred some of them have towards India when the cricket was one.'

Yes, but there have been wars and armed disputes between the countries since Pakistan was founded, that doesn't help. Likewise children of Pakistani and Bengali heritage.

BadLad Sun 01-Sep-13 18:20:49

A quick google for cricket crowd trouble and rugby crowd trouble show that the problem is much more than one incident twelve years ago.

kim147 Sun 01-Sep-13 18:24:41

You win. I really can't be bothered to Google. But I'd be much happier taking DS to a cricket or rugby match.

BadLad Sun 01-Sep-13 18:26:38

You win

GET IN!

We won
We beat the scum, 1-0
We beat the scum 1-0
We beat the scum 1-0

sooy grin

Ilovegeorgeclooney Sun 01-Sep-13 18:28:29

Scummer is the 'affectionate' nickname Pompey fans have for supporters of Southampton. It has been going on for generations and they call us skates ( due to a scurrilous rumour I believe). I think a lot worse is said at football.

kim147 Sun 01-Sep-13 18:30:06

I think Leeds fans call Man United "scum".

Or is that unique to Leeds?

BadLad Sun 01-Sep-13 18:31:06

All serious fans call Man United scum

SilverApples Sun 01-Sep-13 18:34:55

BadLad, it's also about the impact on the public, and their perception of it.
I've never avoided a street, or a train because it was full of cricket fans or rugby enthusiasts. But I have with football fans. Frequently.
I've never come across hordes of fans from any other sport moving on a huge crowd, shoving and spitting and offering lewd suggestions to anyone female over the age of 10.
I used to live near Wembley in the 80s.

complexnumber Sun 01-Sep-13 18:37:01

I'm sure there was a relevant statistic that said domestic violence rates sky rocket during the six nations rugby tournament.

I would be really interested if you could locate that statistic, Teeb.

It doesn't ring true with my experiences

BadLad Sun 01-Sep-13 18:37:12

I would never argue that it doesn't happen at all at football games, although I think the problem is much less now than it was in the 80s.

I was arguing with this

I don't think you get this in Rugby Union or cricket. Fans from both sides happily mix in the stadium and in the bars before that.

SilverApples Sun 01-Sep-13 18:37:35

In fact, best journey ever with DD at 16 was a train full of gym-toned, well washed and very polite young men on their way to the Pride march in Brighton. Not a grope, or a single act of intimidation amongst them. grin

Ilovemyself Sun 01-Sep-13 18:37:57

See what I mean. Football fans have to take things down to the lowest level - even on here.

Rudeness, abuse, homophobia. It's all acceptable as its part of an in joke between fans.

The thread wasn't about domestic violence. It wasn't about is football worse than rugby or cricket ( although I personally doubt cricket or rugby are anywhere near as bad, football fans always have something on standby)

It was about is verbal abuse like the word scum acceptable. But I guess it is.

SilverApples Sun 01-Sep-13 18:39:12

You mean this report on domestic violence?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-18379093

TeaAndABiscuit Sun 01-Sep-13 18:41:33

The history of the term 'scum' re: Pompey V Southampton comes from a historical union reference acronym:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/hampshire/hi/people_and_places/history/newsid_8493000/8493003.stm

Oh and play up Pompey smile

BadLad Sun 01-Sep-13 18:42:07

complexnumber, here

wales.gov.uk/newsroom/housingandcommunity/2013/130131campaign-tackles-domestic-violence-six-nations/?lang=en

Lest I be accused of being as biased as the injury time timekeeper at Old Trafford, it is a report about DV during major sporting tournaments, but it does mention the six nations specifically.

And according to this one, Wales playing England in 2012 resulted in the number of domestic abuse cases rising by 70 percent compared to the previous weekend.

www.kenskates.co.uk/am-warns-of-domestic-abuse-spike-over-final-six-nations-weekend/

I have no doubt that similar stats can be found for when Germany turf England out of a world cup.

TeaAndABiscuit Sun 01-Sep-13 18:42:13
SilverApples Sun 01-Sep-13 18:45:03

So, team sports = violence?
I've always disliked them. They seem to bring out the worst in many people.
No, OP swearing and abusing people because of a game is never acceptable to me.

complexnumber Sun 01-Sep-13 18:51:02

Thanks for the link BadLad, I suppose I was thinking in terms of violence at the matches. Though your first post clearly states you are talking about domestic violence.

Not pleasant at all, and a bit of an eye-opener.

Yonionekanobe Sun 01-Sep-13 18:51:17

I happened to be on a train last weekend full of Rugby League fans and was really shocked by the nastiness of one particular group. I have travelled a lot for football and worldwide for cricket but never felt so intimidated by a group of sports fans before. It was grim.

BadLad Sun 01-Sep-13 18:51:18

Much worse in South America.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2357453/Brazilian-referee-beheaded-Angry-fans-head-stake-stabbing-player.html

After a referee fatally stabbed a player, the fans cut his head off.

In an amateur match, for Christ's sake.

Ilovemyself Sun 01-Sep-13 19:03:38

Come on Badlad. It's ok to be abusive in the UK at football because its much worse in South America.

I'll just accept the fun abuse ( which never turns to bullying or violence because its just about a stupid game) is ok from now on.

KissMeHardy Sun 01-Sep-13 19:06:43

Oh, just shrug and get on with your life OP. There's worse things happen at sea.

BadLad Sun 01-Sep-13 19:10:59

Nobody said abuse at football matches was OK. But the problem is overstated and is wrongly said to happen only at footbal matches - as has happened on this thread - and it does cause an unfair amount of headlines when it happens in the UK when the problem is much worse in some other countries - South America and Turkey, for example.

kim147 Sun 01-Sep-13 19:12:50

I'm still amazed at the police presence at football matches. Our local team is in Division 2 and there are loads of police on duty in the local area.

Arnie123 Sun 01-Sep-13 19:15:57

I think that is the main reason a lot of people attend football matches. I met the Soul Crew once (Cardiff City hooligans mob) and they really got off on the punch ups and abuse. When we came out of the match one of them even threw a petrol bomb at rival fans.

If you don't think Rugby fans are as bad as football fans towards innocent on lookers etc, then you have had limited experience of both sets out on the town, afterwards.

It depends on what you mean by trading insults, if it is kept between supporters then that is up to them.

Liverpool have issued a warning against sexist and racist insults and action will be taken, banned from matches etc.

But, generally traded insults shouldn't be interfered with, it is part of the rivalry. Bystanders on transport, obviously shouldn't be dragged into it.

Ilovemyself Sun 01-Sep-13 19:19:52

Badlad. The abuse at football matches was what I was on about though. I have friends that support football, I have friends the like cricket and I have friends that support rugby. And Motorsport is a big part of my and my friends life.

Apart from the GP ( where your union flag waving sun readers are out in force) I have never heard of such things in Motorsport.

In rugby and cricket I do not see the "fun" abuse on Facebook or in conversation that I hear from football fans.

And the anti German comments in football continue to this day. I have even heard someone say they will never like Germans because of the war.

I thought we had moved on a bit from that shit.

It certainly isn't the main reason why many go to football matches, it is a small group of idiots that kick off violence.

Exchanged verbal insults, or posts on FB unless directed at you, or your home town/city(which we in Liverpool used to get a lot) should be ignored.

Thankfully anything to do with Hilsborough ( and orher high profile cases) is now removed, so the need to wade in isn't as great.

X post, I think you are getting to involved in other people's posting.

FB is a social media site to post your thoughts and feelings on, unless you are stirring up hate crime, there should be an element of freedom.

TroublesomeEx Sun 01-Sep-13 19:26:15

This is why I hate football.

I'd just leave them to it and ignore them.

Some people are stupid.

cantspel Sun 01-Sep-13 19:42:57

Of course there are football fans who hurl insults and intimidate but unlike any other group we all get tarred by the same brush and blame football as a whole.

As with any group of people there is good and bad and you cant blame the game just the people who are doing it.

aderynlas Sun 01-Sep-13 20:27:58

Agree with you cantspel, and lots of the idiots who post rubbish on facebook have never actually been to a game.

neunundneunzigluftballons Sun 01-Sep-13 20:32:03

Tbh OP it depends on the team if it is mine then it is wrong otherwise fair game.

Ilovegeorgeclooney Sun 01-Sep-13 20:34:27

A lot of people who moan about football fans have never been to a professional football game. It is wonderful, yes very tribal but the banter is also very funny.

Play Up Pompey!

Redbindy Sun 01-Sep-13 20:43:04

OP you are absolutely right. Except for Southampton supporters because they are scummers.

Ilovemyself Sun 01-Sep-13 20:44:37

Dmax+1 at the moment shows it all!

Regardless of wether people have been to a professional match ( and yes I have) what makes abuse funny?

Most of the people I know go to every home game and most away matches.

If it was sexist abuse would it still be acceptable? Or racist? Or homophobic? After all fits just a joke and all a bit tribal. (Or is that pack mentality?)

Ilovegeorgeclooney Sun 01-Sep-13 20:45:50

Now I love a scummer bashing thread! PUP!

TylerHopkins Sun 01-Sep-13 20:47:32

It's only a game grin

Love that line, used to wind up my football mad brother no end.

Ilovegeorgeclooney Sun 01-Sep-13 20:49:11

Well by the same argument the OP would probably have to also ban all comedies/comedians. Most humour has it's roots in attacking somebody else even if it is politicians.

TeaAndABiscuit Sun 01-Sep-13 20:51:04

PUPPPU!

Redbindy Sun 01-Sep-13 20:52:05

Fratton End scummer bashers. PUP, come on you blues.

Ilovegeorgeclooney Sun 01-Sep-13 20:55:52

Now this is a thread, PUP!

Redbindy Sun 01-Sep-13 21:00:56

No scummers joining in? red and white sh*te.

Another prissy Mumsnet anti-football thread.

0/10 for originality.

catham Sun 01-Sep-13 21:14:04

arsenal fans usually come out with that sort of crap

it's only a flipping game

Ilovemyself Sun 01-Sep-13 21:16:53

themaltesefalcon. It's NOT anti football. It is anti the dickheads that can't enjoy a game without abusing others.

0/10 for a reason why abuse is EVER acceptable!

Ilovemyself Sun 01-Sep-13 21:21:50

geotgeclooney. When it come to humour I am an anything goes kind of person so you are so wrong there.

When it comes to racist, sexist or homophobic abuse it is a different matter

aderynlas Sun 01-Sep-13 21:24:47

All this scummer insults, you haven't been insulted till someone says, baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, very loudly at you. We have this all the time I tell you. shock

Football abuse can be highly entertaining and it is indeed prissy to suggest otherwise. Cricket abuse, too... and rugby union abuse. I like the unconscious snobbery of the poster who thought it was only football, the dirty working class game, that had this alleged problem.

OP, I suppose your branding fans as "dickheads" whilst claiming to be "anti-abuse" is some exercise in irony that has passed me by.

You just come across as trying a bit too hard. I'd suggest you leave the football to those who understand the culture and dedicate your spare time to acquiring a rudimentary knowledge of grammar.

When it comes to racist, sexist or homophobic abuse it is a different matter

Well... why do you give a shite about "scum," then? It is none of those things, unless you consider scumminess to be a characterisitc peculiar to women, blacks and gays.

characteristic, even.

kim147 Sun 01-Sep-13 21:32:39

It is only a game and I can't understand the animosity some people have towards others - with real consequences.

Mind you, I can't understand the passion people have for it either. Or the millions people get paid for it.

TeaAndABiscuit Sun 01-Sep-13 21:32:50

Bindy and Clooney, do you like the third kit just launched?
I got myself one for running..loving the salmon pink!
www.footballshirtculture.com/13/14-kits/portsmouth-2013-14-sondico-third-football-kit.html

That's a great kit, TeaAndABiscuit.

TeaAndABiscuit Sun 01-Sep-13 21:45:10

Cheers falcon smile

revealall Sun 01-Sep-13 21:48:30

Football abuse can be highly entertaining and it is indeed prissy to suggest otherwise. Cricket abuse, too... and rugby union abuse. I like the unconscious snobbery of the poster who thought it was only football, the dirty working class game, that had this alleged problem.

So why aren't opposing football fans seated together like in rugby or cricket then? 84,000 fans in mixed seating at the Twickenham final and no trouble. Football can only dream...

kim147 Sun 01-Sep-13 21:59:57

You go to most sports between 2 teams and you can sit where you want to without worrying about abuse being shouted at rival team supporters.

Would you say that is true for football? If not, why not?

TeaAndABiscuit Sun 01-Sep-13 22:19:46

Banter is fine, abuse isn't. Football has improved but has some way to go in some areas. There are more women attending matches and the quality of women's football has grown exponentially over the last 15 years, more initiatives to tackle the uglier sides and society has moved on. It's not perfect by a long shot though. It is trying to address these problems.
There is a tribalism in football that you don't get so much in other sports (possibly due to most towns having a team) which can be both everything good and bad about the sport.
I think it probably could learn from rugby in terms of the way players are disciplined and the respect given to the ref.
I can understand people not liking football but I do find there is a snobbishness against football fans. The tribalism is part of what makes the game and as long as it's not offence chanting, is part of the experience.

TeaAndABiscuit Sun 01-Sep-13 22:20:55

offensive

Ilovemyself Sun 01-Sep-13 22:22:55

I love the way that people assume. I am snobby eh? Brung up on a council estate and I recognise where I came from.

And themaltesefalcon I suggest you read what I actually said. I am branding those that can't enjoy a game without abuse as dickheads. Not the average family that would like to go and enjoy the game without the abuse. And if you have to stoop to grammar issues shows you up for the sort of person you are - a loser in this argument. I have been on the same wavelength as you on many threads. I thought you actually had some intelligence.

I will leave the football to those of limited intelligence and who seem to
I get their kicks out of abusing others then.

Ilovemyself Sun 01-Sep-13 22:30:03

teaandabiscuit. A well made comment.

One of the issues I see though is that the women are as abusive as the men.

The long and the short of it is that in any other area of life any abuse would be classed as wrong. Yet it appears to be acceptable on the terraces.

If I made a sexist comment on here I would be quite rightly be shown how wrong I was. What makes it different to a chant on the terraces.

TeaAndABiscuit Sun 01-Sep-13 22:44:35

Intolerance is never acceptable.
I do think the press love to jump on negative football fan stories which doesn't put the game in the greatest of lights.
And I just read this which made me want to cry:
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hillsborough-police-paid-money-found-among-the-dead-into-forces-coffers-8793702.html

MajorBumsore Sun 01-Sep-13 23:24:24

I have been a Saints supporter for my whole life. I am offended that at least three Portsmouth supporters have come onto this thread using 'scummer' as an insult towards me. They may see this as light hearted banter, as someone who has been on the receiving end of it on many occasions, I can assure you that it is anything but. I have been spat at and treated with vitriol, but ha ha eh? It's just banter.

TeaAndABiscuit Sun 01-Sep-13 23:38:47

Sorry if you were offended by that word. I can only see two that used it. I've been called a skate which I just think is funny but context is everything. Do you ever say that?. Spitting is disgusting and whoever did that to you should be ashamed of themselves. I guess this is the behaviour the OP was referring to.

I've grown up with Scummers and Skates too, I have heard it many times used in a light hearted banter sort of way between work colleagues (I worked in Gosport, so in-between), which was fine and fairly even-handed. However it runs an awful lot deeper than that for many people, real hatred, and that I don't like, I was a season ticket holder at Portsmouth for many years but never went to a derby match (they were never in the same division in those days) and I did get sick of the Southampton bashing chants. I de-listed a FB friend over her Pompey hating rants (I have other Saints fans on there and we just josh each other)

I always feel slightly uncomfortable going shopping in Southampton in case someone twigs I'm from the other side, stupid I know. Especially as they've got a bigger John Lewis than us.

TeaAndABiscuit Sun 01-Sep-13 23:57:13

Incidentally big Southampton hero Matt Le Tissier played a testimonial game at Fratton Park for one of our players a few seasons back. He played in a top with 'Scummer' on the back which he took great delight in revealing to the crowd and the whole thing was good natured fun.
Again, context is everything.

Oh and no, I don't like the third kit.....

aderynlas Sun 01-Sep-13 23:58:17

Looking forward to another visit to southampton. We will be reminded that we are sheep shaggers during the match. Not bothered by this but the spitting must have been horrible for you major.

When the Pompey goalkeeper Aaron Flahavan died tragically about 10 years ago I went to Fratton Park to view the tributes and was touched to see how many there were from Southampton fans. Sometimes rivalries can be set aside. And yes, I remember the Matt le Tissier Scummer tee-shirt too.

BadLad Mon 02-Sep-13 03:11:26

In rugby and cricket I do not see the "fun" abuse on Facebook or in conversation that I hear from football fans.

I don't use Facebook, but next time there is a test match between England and Australia, have a look at the comments board on the BBC after it finishes, and you will likely lose the will to live.

So why aren't opposing football fans seated together like in rugby or cricket then? 84,000 fans in mixed seating at the Twickenham final and no trouble. Football can only dream...

Football fans don't want it thay - they like being surrounded by fans of their own team. Sometimes fans of the other team do get into the home team fans' area, but I have never seen any problem. Fans of both teams make their way to the station afterwards without needing to be separated.

I appreciate that there used to be a big problem with football hooliganism, but the game has come absolutely light years since then. In the late 80s black players had bananas thrown at them. Nowadays anyone throwing racist abuse would themselves be vilified.

It reallly is a tiny minority of fans who occasionally spoil it for everyone. Some posters on this thread talking about football fans sound like the Daily Mail talking about welfare scroungers.

BadLad Mon 02-Sep-13 03:11:42

thay?

that way

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