AIBU to go and ask travellers to behave?

(147 Posts)

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3MenAndMe Sat 31-Aug-13 07:53:20

This may be longish..........
So they've descended onto our playfield,neighbouring with my house yesterday,I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw loads of caravans 7.30 in the morning and I didn't hear a thing(the main gate is next to my house,window open and was waking few times to my 10 week old)..

The police and thr council was there at 10am and said that they are at the process of removing them,however they are still here.Personally, I have nothing against them,their lives must be really hard....
BUT......
- I can't take my LO for a walk in the pram(it feels really intimidating
-I can't walk my dogs without a lead anymore(they have couple of small dogs who chased mine yesterday,I have the feeling they are not vaccinated etc.)
-My older boys usedto play there with their mates,riding bikes and I just feel it is not safe anymore

BUT THE WORST is the noise (music in the car till 5am),constant souting,lack of respect towards residents,shitting everywhere and coming to my house at 9 pm asking for flipping lighter (or just checking who is in the house).

Sorry for the rant,I'm a bit sleep deprived and it makes my PND worse...

Amy106 Sat 31-Aug-13 07:57:31

It sounds awful and I can understand why you are upset. I won't go over there though. Let the police and the council sort them out.

PrincessKildare Sat 31-Aug-13 08:00:23

I know from experience how unpleasant and disruptive this can be. However you should def not approach them on your own. Please just report unacceptable noise to the police and pray the move on soon. X

sooperdooper Sat 31-Aug-13 08:01:55

I agree with the others, report issues to the police but don't go over yourself

CheungFun Sat 31-Aug-13 08:05:11

Personally I think I'd phone the police and ask them to have a word rather than go myself as I'm a bit wary of travellers (personal experience when pregnant). I've knocked on the doors of noisy neighbours and asked them to keep noise down over the years though and been polite about it and they've all learnt to be a bit quieter!

AndThatsWhatIThinkOfYou Sat 31-Aug-13 08:10:15

I feel for you, be prepared for the shit tip left behind. Also what you might think is dog shit, is probably human shit! Don't go around on your own please I hope they move on soon

catinabox Sat 31-Aug-13 08:18:56

Human Shit? Outside? Really?!

YANBU to ask people to be quiet etc but i thing it might be futile. I would imagine if the travellers are in a residential area they will be moved on fairly soon, there will be lots of people complaining if there has been lots of noise and disturbance..

I think travellers generally have a tough time but if people are behaving anti socially and disturbing residents, its not really fair.

3MenAndMe Sat 31-Aug-13 08:24:46

I did call the police at 4am,woman said they will be there within an hour,but then had a call from local cops and was told they are dealing with them...yeah,right just like in the morning and nothing happend...
you are right,*And*,it is the human shit,with loads of flies,just in my dogs favourite spot.
I know it will take time to move them,at least 7 days,I can't imagine the mess,it looks gross already,after just one day....

3MenAndMe Sat 31-Aug-13 08:32:31

catinabox yes,human excrements,in London park,not just tiny poop but regular toilet al fresco,sorri for tmi

hermioneweasley Sat 31-Aug-13 08:32:38

Sounds awful. So sorry for you. I can't believe the police can't move them on quicker.

ShiftyFades Sat 31-Aug-13 08:34:53

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catinabox Sat 31-Aug-13 08:37:04

3menandme i did ask! A call to environmental health could be a plan? Yuk.

That's not nice. I know people have to poo somewhere but there must be a way to clean up after yourself rather than leaving it..yuk.

I remember coming across the biggest human turd ever in a hedge at Glastonbury festival once. Still traumatised!

Poor you. I guess your dog walking route is going to have to change for a week. Hope it's sorted soon. Keep phoning.

Genuine question - do travellers not have toilets? These threads always talk about the shit everywhere, and I remember one episode of My Big Fat.. where they said they didn't have a toilet in their caravan, as it was "dirty". But I presumed they'd have a portaloo or something as part of their entourage.

3MenAndMe Sat 31-Aug-13 08:45:41

Shifty my DH is very helpful but out today,no others unforunately + I have 2 pre-teens who want to play outside and are in and out all day,playing with neighbours kids,
.... no perspective of a decent nap till late afternoon,buuuusad

"Genuine question - do travellers not have toilets?"

Most Travellers, if not all, take the toilet out of their van, as they think it is unhygenic to have a toilet next to where they cook.

Normally they tow portable toilets, with them. If not then the LA should supply one, as it is a Environmental/H&S issue and they wouldn't have the resources to arrest everyone of them and take the children into care.

So it is cheaper to give them amenities.

3MenAndMe Sat 31-Aug-13 08:46:12

Sorry for typos but NAK

Thank you, Birds. I do actually feel sorry for travellers. The minority give the majority a bad name, and it must be awful to be hated everywhere they go.

Crowler Sat 31-Aug-13 08:51:44

Ugh. I feel for you.

Also, in Scotland, each local authority has to provide a site for travellers, with water and power. Is this not the same in England?

3MenAndMe Sat 31-Aug-13 08:53:43

I think this is why they usually park near the bushes so they can relieve themselves...
There is no port-a-loo in sight,who will want to tow shitbox with them,it's easier to leave the mess behind.....>sad

Eve Sat 31-Aug-13 08:58:21

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AndThatsWhatIThinkOfYou Sat 31-Aug-13 09:01:49

just waiting for all the do gooders to start flaming you! when I posted about my experience with travellers the amount of people who basically said we should let them get on with it because it's their culture was shocking

"who will want to tow shitbox with them,it's easier to leave the mess behind"

Many of them do, it's no different to the many who take a port-a-loo camping.

Your use of language shows your contempt, tbh.

There can be problems with some groups, it isn't fair to brand everyone who resides in a mobile caravan, as they come from different cultures and backgrounds.

I have more a problem that every piece of land, lake etc is now owed by someone, the whole set up of modern society in essence, is both an excellent example of indirect and direct discrimination.

JobsComfortBlanket Sat 31-Aug-13 09:07:42

Our local travellers (the ones who arrive regular as clockwork every Spring bank holiday and should be moving on any day now, god willing) shit on the ground until the local council rock up with two portaloos, some litter bins and this year - a first! - a portable 'shower block' with a bowser and an awning.

They'll be moving on back to their houses for the winter soon.

LittleEsme Sat 31-Aug-13 09:11:44

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Yanbu it all sounds grim. Amazed with the no flaming yet though wink

mrsjay Sat 31-Aug-13 09:17:31

some travellers wont use the site here well we have 2 within a few miles of each other some dont feel safe old feuds etc it is not all happy apparently , anyway just keep complaining to the police and council on monday call enviromental (sp) about the poo I don't care if they dont use their caravan toilets that is bloody disgusting,

mrsjay Sat 31-Aug-13 09:18:11

enviromental(sp again) health*

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Sat 31-Aug-13 09:18:50

Agent: as I understand it there is not the same requirement in England to have traveller sites. I've never known any problems with travellers in scotland though there is a site quite close to where I live - I wonder if it is worse in England as they have nowhere to go?

mrsjay Sat 31-Aug-13 09:21:43

Oh it is a shame they don't have site requirements in England, we never have any bother with travellers they just fight amongst themselves

trice Sat 31-Aug-13 09:22:34

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SubliminalMassaging Sat 31-Aug-13 09:23:14

just waiting for all the do gooders to start flaming you! when I posted about my experience with travellers the amount of people who basically said we should let them get on with it because it's their culture was shocking

It seems to me you can excuse/justify just about anything in the UK these days so long as you can say it's part of an ethinic minority's 'culture.'

LookingForwardToVino Sat 31-Aug-13 09:23:35

Ewww

They sound awful and in your shoes I would be very angry about the intimidation and shit (actual shit shock )

But please don't go over to them, they could make your life hell (much more than they already are doing)

Just keep calling the police and encouraging neighbours to do the same.

mrsjay Sat 31-Aug-13 09:25:25

I was shot down on another thread about human shite apparently where else were they meant to go shock

rainbowfeet Sat 31-Aug-13 09:25:31

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SubliminalMassaging Sat 31-Aug-13 09:25:48

Personally, I have nothing against them,their lives must be really hard....

Let's see if you still feel that way by the time they've moved on.....

mrsjay Sat 31-Aug-13 09:27:43

I watched a programme last night about english irish travellers and Irish Irish travellers (not sure if the OP travellers are Irish) anyway the Irsh Irish travellers are disgusted at how some who live in England behave

GemmaTeller Sat 31-Aug-13 09:28:20

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LookingForwardToVino Sat 31-Aug-13 09:30:33

I might be being a bit thick but....

Why don't they get arrested for that?

I'm pretty sure if I hopped in my Dad's 4x4 and started towing boulders out of the park I would be!

mrsjay Sat 31-Aug-13 09:32:14

if they settle they need to be evicted if they dont move on right away not sure why they don't get arrested though

JobsComfortBlanket Sat 31-Aug-13 09:35:14

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WeAllHaveWings Sat 31-Aug-13 09:35:28

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NonnoMum Sat 31-Aug-13 09:35:54

As far as I know, councils DO provide sites in England.

But that didn't stop some travellers rocking up on a school field this summer in our county...

SubliminalMassaging Sat 31-Aug-13 09:36:56

I saw that too MrsJay but I was also pretty disgusted with elements of how they behaved. The way that family revelled in a glorified their reputation for violence and fighting was revolting - right down to the little kids posturing and acting threatening for the cameras, conditioned from a really early age. I can have no respect whatsoever for that.

And then they had the cheek to complain that they were discriminated against by being banned from every pub in the town!

SubliminalMassaging Sat 31-Aug-13 09:37:57

sorry I say that again. confused

The way that family revealed in, and glorified their reputation for violence.

Damnautocorrect Sat 31-Aug-13 09:41:18

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neunundneunzigluftballons Sat 31-Aug-13 09:41:21

Ah great another one so soon after the last one. Anyone commiting anti social behaviour should be dealt with by the law and the laws should be strong enough to deal with these types of behaviour. Overt racism as per too many to mention posts in this thread is vile behaviour too. Both communities have their issues.

FrigginRexManningDay Sat 31-Aug-13 09:41:36

Travellers trashed the green area at the back of our row of houses a couple of years ago. It was destroyed. Can they not impound their cars and caravans until they pay for the damage and cost of the clean up after them?

SilverApples Sat 31-Aug-13 09:41:36

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NiceTabard Sat 31-Aug-13 09:42:18

We have had travellers set up on public / common land around here a couple of times.

The process seems to be that the police / whoever it is gets a court order to remove them, and that gets delivered or whatever, and then if they don't move on they get evicted. It seems to take a couple of weeks or so.

If you feel intimidated then I think you should steer clear TBH.

mrsjay Sat 31-Aug-13 09:42:30

I have to say I dont agree with the violence but that is their culture men are men and women are women the old man did say his dd wouldnt tolerate being grabbed though , I guess people can live how they want but the disregard for other people really isn't on is it,

mrsjay Sat 31-Aug-13 09:43:15

we have non traveller families round here who are banned from every pub in town, and shops and generally make life horrible for the people around them

NiceTabard Sat 31-Aug-13 09:45:15

Oh we have about 4 traveller sites within striking distance but they are sort of semi-permanent /permanent I think, I doubt there would be room for a group turning up and TBH unless they were invited / known to them I doubt they would be welcome.

FrigginRexManningDay Sat 31-Aug-13 09:46:03

The laws are strong enough to deal with illegal dumping,anti social behaviour and vandalism.

KateSMumsnet (MNHQ) Sat 31-Aug-13 09:55:58

Morning everyone,

We'd just like to remind you all of our talk guidelines, and that sweeping generalisations, about any ethnic group, will be deleted.

Happy Saturday!

SubliminalMassaging Sat 31-Aug-13 09:57:42

I wondered how long it would take for the deletions to start. Lightning quick today aren't we? wink

SubliminalMassaging Sat 31-Aug-13 09:58:19

I think there must be a laxon goes off in MNHQ when the word traveller is typed into a thread.

SubliminalMassaging Sat 31-Aug-13 09:58:28

klaxon

mrsjay Sat 31-Aug-13 09:59:11

oh dearie me oh well I dont think we were being nasty or finger pointing or generalising just sharing experiences nothing more, <shrug>

TylerHopkins Sat 31-Aug-13 10:08:07

There's a piece of land near me which I drive past every day coming home from work. Recently travellers moved on and I immediately thought 'here we go, the place will be trashed in no time'. However driving home one night I could see they'd piled up their bin bags in a pile ready for collection. A couple of days later the bags had gone. This happened again a few days later and then a day or so after that the travellers had gone and there was no rubbish in sight. I was quite shock, after years of bad experiences with them had I finally witnessed a decent group?

Saying that, I didn't live close enough to them, they might have been behaving like the OP's travellers. And I certainly didn't go and inspect the land for excrement!!!

One thing that I did question was if the local council had removed their rubbish for them, would they have been charged? I hope so as it's unfair that everyone else pays for this through council tax.

SubliminalMassaging Sat 31-Aug-13 10:13:23

But considering they all have cars vans and trailers etc, and they don't pay council tax if they are not on a permanent site, how hard would it have been to take it to the tip themselves, like settled people would be expected to do? Better to bag it up than not bag it up of course, but they are hardly pushing the boat out are they?

SubliminalMassaging Sat 31-Aug-13 10:14:46

I always have to laugh like a drain at the pixillating out of so many men's faces in MBFGW.

mrsjay Sat 31-Aug-13 10:15:45

would you not let the council leave the rubbish to blow about or would you want them to lift it, whether it was pad for or not is neither here nor there,

SubliminalMassaging Sat 31-Aug-13 10:18:47

No of course the council should take it if it's been left, but it would be nice if the Travellers themselves could show some responsbility by clearing up after themselves properly, and not just assuming someone will do it for them.

3Men how are they getting access to water and electricity, do you know?

There was a site locally where the travellers had paid for their own rubbish removal, but they had left everything piled up when they left waiting to be collected. Locals then trashed the site hoping the travellers would get the blame, but the local paper had been out & taken photos of the area before it had been trashed (& were apparently bemused to be asked to come back to take photos of the mess).

And the extended family who had been there also paid for the site to be re cleaned

SilverApples Sat 31-Aug-13 10:19:32

I agree mrsjay, far better to have the council and us pay to remove neatly bagged rubbish than be left with a total disaster area. The cleanup costs would be much higher.

'The laws are strong enough to deal with illegal dumping,anti social behaviour and vandalism.'

grin You don't say which planet you are from, Frigging.

SubliminalMassaging Sat 31-Aug-13 10:30:58

Funnily enough, when searching for something completely unrelated yesterday I stumbled across this article about a family who owned a plot of land for many years, and moved onto it when they lost their home due to business failure. They both ended up in jail.

Second article here

If only they were gypsies the law would have been differently applied altogether.

FrigginRexManningDay Sat 31-Aug-13 10:49:34

Lol,not to out myself but my brother works in the court system and people are regularly fined for illegal dumping,vandalism and anti social behaviour. He told me of a case where a woman was fined for leaving a box of cans beside a recycling bin instead of in the bin (the bin was full),for illegal dumping.

SubliminalMassaging Sat 31-Aug-13 10:55:01

I'd love to know how many fines for illegal dumping have been imposed on travelers in the last couple of years.

AndThatsWhatIThinkOfYou Sat 31-Aug-13 10:59:55

hhmm me too, problem is they are hard to catch with moving about all time.

3MenAndMe Sat 31-Aug-13 11:01:25

As some of you posted culture and tradition is one thing,personal choice how to live but it should not affect lives of other.
The negative thing is their behaviour not who they are so their is no point of mentioning ''r'' word..........

SilverApples Sat 31-Aug-13 11:10:27

Would you prefer the word itinerants to describe people who move around habitually, in caravans and who create illegal sites for days and weeks, leaving a despoiled landscape behind them that the residents have to deal with?
And who display ASB during their time in the locality?
Does that have any cultural or traditional implications or does it cover everyone from new age hippies to Travellers to Gypsies to Roma?

SilverApples Sat 31-Aug-13 11:11:38

Holiday makers, caravanners, migrant labour, impoverished students who can't afford the rent?

littlemog Sat 31-Aug-13 11:18:21

OP do NOT approach them yourself. Seriously, the repercussions could be nasty for you and your family. Report it to the police (as everyone else will do) and hope that they will act.

Good luck.

3MenAndMe Sat 31-Aug-13 11:26:08

I may and probably do sound like newbie but girls............

MASSSSSIVE THANK YOU for all support and suggestions.Ihonestly thought I will collapse today under tiredness and desperation...

3MenAndMe Sat 31-Aug-13 11:34:41

There is no water/electricity as it is only park/playfield used for football/cricket..
The other thing that worries me is that they seem to have large gas canisters...maybe it's silly but what if they explode??they are on the direct sunlight....close to my house....

SilverApples Sat 31-Aug-13 11:35:49

Don't worry about the gas, they've been using it for years to cook and light with. They know what they are doing.

mrsjay Sat 31-Aug-13 11:37:56

we caravan for holidays the gas is fine it wont explode ,

ShellyBoobs Sat 31-Aug-13 11:46:54

Be very careful about approaching them, OP.

Travellers descended upon the town closest to us, last month.

Local news report

The damage and mess left behind was unbelievable - I saw it myself when visiting a friend who lives there.

The sports field surface is absolutely ruined - collections are underway to pay for repairs.

The cost of cleaning up the mess is in the the thousands and will have to be paid for by council tax payers.

Worst of all, the field concerned is the local hospital's designated landing area for the air ambulance so that had to be diverted elsewhere.

Still, if it's part of someone's traditions and culture.

sad

Thymeout Sat 31-Aug-13 12:15:15

Yes - I saw the Channel 4 prog, too.

What got me is that the Irish Irish Traveller criticising the English Irish Travellers for the 'grabbing' custom was blaming the girls for being grabbed, not the boys for grabbing them.

FrigginRexManningDay Sat 31-Aug-13 12:23:26

I have no idea whether they were travellers or not but the laws are there,its that the laws are not enforced.

Its traditionally a very mysogenistic culture so the girls would be blamed for being grabbed.

Dobbiesmum Sat 31-Aug-13 12:24:46

Now I have had a run in with a traveller family and it went fine, granted we were at a festival, in a tent on a farmers field, I was out here>>> pregnant at the time, it was around 3am and a large family rocked up music blaring, engines going, that sort of thing.
Poor sods were confronted by a large stomach screaming at them to shut up and respect the family camping rules... And they did..
The next morning one of the women came over and apologised for the noise, they had come onto the wrong field as it was so dark. They stayed where they were and were actually really nice, just a bit noisy.

dufflefluffle Sat 31-Aug-13 12:32:49

their lives must be really hard.... hmm

Why???

Some travellers moved onto a farmers land near us. They didn't seem in any hurry to leave so he put a sign up saying muck spreading would commence on <such and such> date. They moved on.

Don't approach them OP, but do keep on at the council.

lljkk Sat 31-Aug-13 12:47:39

They have much lower life expectancy than the settled population, much higher infant mortality, insecure employment, low education, marginalised by society. I think a lot of that is hard.

SilverApples Sat 31-Aug-13 12:48:57

That's the thing about having freedom of choice when living in a free society.
You get to choose how you live and whether or not you access the services available.

I've only had close contact with travellers once. For a very short period of time. They had been flooded out of their site and were being housed in the four star hotel where the boys have swimming lessons. (Sorry that's a bit Daily Mail but it's to demonstrate how there was a big change from the usual quiet lessons) I have never spoken to the boys about travellers, they have never seen tv shows or anything about them. They have no concept of travellers at all.

On the way home:

'Mummy why were those children so badly behaved? One kicked me and they were swearing and one tried to jump on my head'
'Why was there a baby with chickenpox next to the pool?'
'Why was there a dirty nappy open next to the pool'
'Why were the children ignoring everything they were told'.

Anyway I tried to explain the idea of travellers without being racist or rude, but they were aghast at what they had seen (it was CHAOS - the kids were running around as a gang in a small space and the baby had very severe chickenpox and the nappy was gross, & the person on the desk from the hotel was practically passing out from stress & fielding complaints and trying to get them to behave).

Ds2 settled with commenting that he thought he was sometimes badly behaved but those kids had been really badly behaved.

DS3 asked whether they went to school and I had to admit I had no idea, although I said I thought some did, but depended on how often they moved. Does anyone know? This group live on a settled site.

Nancy66 Sat 31-Aug-13 14:20:15

The children usually have some schooling but tend to leave at around 12 or so

Thanks Nancy. I actually really struggled with the conversation with the kids because I know so little about travellers & I wanted to explain without being racist. (The two of them have a severely autistic brother, so they're not freaked out particularly by unusual behaviour in public - & it has to be above a certain level for them to even notice but I was just stumped as to how to justify/not justify it or what to say really)

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Sat 31-Aug-13 14:29:07

Wow, all the Claire in the Community types must be off lentil weaving.

Normally they turn up to say they personally know many travellers who pay tax, nic, and do a lot of charity work.......gringringrin

ProfYaffle Sat 31-Aug-13 14:39:35

"There's a piece of land near me which I drive past every day coming home from work. Recently travellers moved on and I immediately thought 'here we go, the place will be trashed in no time'. However driving home one night I could see they'd piled up their bin bags in a pile ready for collection. A couple of days later the bags had gone. This happened again a few days later and then a day or so after that the travellers had gone and there was no rubbish in sight. I was quite shock, after years of bad experiences with them had I finally witnessed a decent group? "

This is largely my experience too. We have a lot of common land around here and the travellers turn up regularly, stay a few weeks and move on. They leave neat piles of bin bags at the edge of the road and the council come and pick them up. No idea what happens toilet wise I'm pleased to say!

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Sat 31-Aug-13 14:46:49

Yep, we've got the same sort of deal going where I live.

It's called refuse collection, and we pay a lot of council tax for it.

sashh Sat 31-Aug-13 15:05:13

Also, in Scotland, each local authority has to provide a site for travellers, with water and power. Is this not the same in England?

One of the many things Thatcher's government abolished.

ProfYaffle
That's sounds like Gypsies (Romani), they dig a ditch and fill it before they leave. They are proud not to leave a mess.

mrsjay Sat 31-Aug-13 15:05:40

I know 4 traveller women not irish travellers and the one of them had a secondary education but she left at 15 , the others finished primary 7 which i think is really sad although one woman went to college in her 40s

Silverfoxballs Sat 31-Aug-13 15:14:45

Only ever had one direct traveller related thing when some parked on the local schools campus. Three schools are on this and about 1,500 dc could not go to school for two days.

So they did not enamour themselves with the locals here. My friend is an environmental health officer and she sad the cost of clear ups can be thousands and it is shit tipped in hedges that is the worst problem.

My maternal side of the family is supposed to have traveller ancestry, no idea if this is true though.

Mollywashup Sat 31-Aug-13 16:05:11

i wish they would move near MPs see how long they would put up with it instead of ordinary people

SubliminalMassaging Sat 31-Aug-13 17:14:55

They have much lower life expectancy than the settled population, much higher infant mortality, insecure employment, low education, marginalised by society. I think a lot of that is hard.

And all of those things can easily be changed but the change has to come from within.

lljkk Sat 31-Aug-13 17:31:01

For them those changes mean losing their culture & identity. It wouldn't matter to me but I understand most people are irrational about keeping cultural identity.

How in the world do the parents get away with children leaving school at 12?? I bet if I let DC bunk off from 12yo that the authorities would make my life Hell.

SubliminalMassaging Sat 31-Aug-13 17:40:37

What good is anyone's culture or identity if it doesn't fit in with the way society in general is run? There are plenty of communities who have different cultural expectations to the mainstream populace but they have to adapt and compromise to an extent or they will not survive in the modern world.

The authorities bend over backwards to make sure these people can access healthcare and education but they need to be met halfway or nothing can change. As far as I can see the Travellers are all take and no give.

BloodyReallyMadmMolar Sun 01-Sep-13 11:08:47

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SilverApples Sun 01-Sep-13 11:37:11

Your last sentence is appallingly racist and I have reported it.

"What good is anyone's culture or identity if it doesn't fit in with the way society in general is run? There are plenty of communities who have different cultural expectations to the mainstream populace but they have to adapt and compromise to an extent or they will not survive in the modern world."

That is how holocausts happen, Native Americans (my family background), Aborigines, spring to mind.

Who gets to say how society is run, in reality and we should question why people have to adapt and whether they should, when it comes to some issues. As i said at the beginning of the thread, who decided that all the land, rivers and lakes should be owned by someone and how?

Who gets to keep their identity above others and who decides this?

"The authorities bend over backwards to make sure these people can access healthcare and education"

No, they merely provide, via the tax system and the money made from the stripping of natural resources, around the world and slave level wages etc what is any citizens right.

duchessandscruffy Sun 01-Sep-13 14:26:01

So birds, when a group of travellers turned up at your local recreation ground and played blaring music and intimidated anyone who might have wanted to use the park and then left an unholy mess behind, including human excrement, did you just shrug your shoulders and think, 'oh well, that's just how they live so it's totally acceptable'?

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Sun 01-Sep-13 14:47:44

"No, they merely provide, via the tax system and the money made from the stripping of natural resources, around the world and slave level wages etc what is any citizens right."

What utter, utter bollocks, Birds..... grin

I sort of agree with you birds but I think the problem in this sort of case is that a group has moved in, will make a considerable nuisance of themselves without any consideration of those around them then leave, leaving behind more mess & destruction.

If you were talking about the local authority that is trying to year down the hobbit house (think that's what it's called - I'll try to link) I'd agree with you.

"What utter, utter bollocks, Birds."

So how did every section of land come to be owned?

How did the very rich amass their wealth?

Why are people in countries whose natural resources we treasure and rely on become so poor?

The country that we have today with it's laws didn't happen accident, there has been a purpose behind every by law and it hasn't been to benefit any minority groups, such as travellers. Even the outlawing of hunting with dogs and poaching, then the release of myxomatosis, was an attack on some people's way of life.

BloodyReallyMadmMolar Sun 01-Sep-13 17:26:43

Travellers cause problems,average site clean up operations cost the local councils £30+k ,thats our money not the travellers!!
Thats painful and hurtful experience talking too

TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy Sun 01-Sep-13 17:48:36

Birds - great posts

duchess - your question presumes that those are features of at least one particular traveler culture or a generic traveler culture [which doesn't exist] rather than people being assholes. It ignores that assholes can be found in any group, that there are several cultural groups who are commonly labelled travellers with each have a different culture (and the "new age travellers" who appropriate a pick and mix of habits), some of which don't even have travelling as a part of it (like the Roma people, whose history of travelling is part of their history of oppression rather than a part of their culture which is why most in the UK are now settled but are still have a separate cultural identity and history).

Sub - the 'good' of a culture, even a minority one, is a sense of identity, belonging, a part of history and something larger. Hence why Brits abroad maintain their cultures even when it doesn't fit in with everyone else around them. History has shown that assimilation, particularly by force, has never brought about the peace and goodwill the people who call for it seem to think it will. Read anything written by someone who has gone through it, discuss it, it causes nothing but broken people. We still live in a world where cultural genocide is common, where people's children are taken off of them and their cultural items taken away (except when used for the entertainment of those in power) and the heritage of it scars generations. Stripping people of their culture won't fix the underlying problem - see the people after boarding school, see the painful experiences now of people and their descendants left adrift afterwards. We need equal application of the law as well as understanding, celebrating, representation of, and facilitating the differences. No culture should be designated as superior, no culture out of bounds for the law. The OP needs to be able to call to help with the anti-social behaviour and have it work, the travellers involved with that behaviour need dealt with and those not involved with that behaviour need more appropriate facilities.

And many settled people arrange for the council to pick up bulky rubbish for a fee, I have some out right now awaiting it. And yes I do know people under the traveller label that do charity, pay tax, and so on - I have a friend who now has a great job, pays lots of tax, does charity work and is going onto her second master's degree, still gets treated like crap, always gets pulled aside for a lot of questioning by border agencies when she travels and even at top of her class she was denied onto a PHD courses as well as teaching because people "from her background" weren't suitable. She couldn't take off her culture even if she wanted to, other people never seem to be able to forget it either.

hermioneweasley Sun 01-Sep-13 18:15:17

I think this is different t native people's (native Americans, aborigines etc) being displaced and over taken by colonials. Britain has been settled going back to the bronze age - travellers weren't the indigenous people who were driven out by new comers within written history.

I agree with others asking why those who are messy and damage where they stay are not prosecuted for damage. I accept that not all traveller communities do this, but those that do should be charged the costs.

neunundneunzigluftballons Sun 01-Sep-13 18:24:19

Travellers are indigenous people this may have escaped your notice but up until 2 generations ago Ireland, the travellers original homeland, was owned by the UK and they have been travelling between the countries for a long, long time. That and the majority of English 'Irish Travellers' were actually born in the UK and so are British citizens.

ShiftyFades Sun 01-Sep-13 18:30:39

grin I had a post deleted grin
Not sure why though, was relaying some very recent experiences of travellers. Certainly didn't think anything was offensive.... Can't even remember what I wrote tbh.... But I can remember the damage to the local field near my home and the nappies thrown into the car park at my work last year. Those experiences are hard to forget <boak>

winewinewine

Coffeenowplease Sun 01-Sep-13 18:39:49

Apparently if its a cultural thing you can behave like a wanker and no one can say anything.

I has similar comments when I mentioned how disgustingly women are treated in certain countries. Yeah thats right. Oppression of women being cultural makes it ok.

I just want to know why they arent charged for the damage like any other person would be. Simple enough question.

TellMeWhatYouWant Sun 01-Sep-13 19:31:43

Nothing 'cultured' about shitting in a recreation ground and expecting someone else to clear it up.

BlingBang Sun 01-Sep-13 19:39:03

Don't have much experience of this though did have some travellers this week in a patch nearby and they moved on quick, I hardly noticed TBH.

Wonder if it's because both sides are so entrenched and distrust each other so much. People seem to expect this behaviour from them and are against them from the start, isn't really conducive to both sides acting respectfully to each other.

Coconutty Sun 01-Sep-13 19:42:21

Oh Good, a Travellers are the scum of the earth thread!

Perfect way to spend Sunday night.

TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy Sun 01-Sep-13 19:43:46

There are also Scottish traveller communities who were pushed off of their lands centuries ago during English colonization, and Romani people have been here since at least pre-1500s after fleeing enslavement in Eastern Europe (the slur G*sy originates in Old English specifically for them) and there are frequent accounts of their being pushed off of their lands. And regardless, cultural genocide is harmful, imperialistic, and of the mind that ones culture is somehow innately superior which will never bring goodwill.

Coffee - No one has said anything of people being getting away with anything due to culture here, in fact it has been brought up that equal under the law for such behaviour is important for goodwill. But branding several communities under one brush of anti-social and oppressive is ridiculous.

Many people within traveller communities do face large fines and charges for what they do, it's harder to collect money from those who have very little take, but they have a higher rate of being jailed for their actions. The idea that people from traveller communities get away with everything has little basis.

Coffeenowplease Sun 01-Sep-13 19:59:47

Pretty sure someone did actually.

duchessandscruffy Sun 01-Sep-13 14:26:01
So birds, when a group of travellers turned up at your local recreation ground and played blaring music and intimidated anyone who might have wanted to use the park and then left an unholy mess behind, including human excrement, did you just shrug your shoulders and think, 'oh well, that's just how they live so it's totally acceptable'?

I was responding to that. Im not saying anyone here thinks xy and z is ok because its your culture but it does seem to be the attitude of a lot of people when discussing this type of thing.

SilverApples Sun 01-Sep-13 20:14:48

I agree with TheSpork, there have been several high profile cases involving the traveller communities that have ended in jail sentences; James Gray and his family were jailed and fined for cruelty to horses, last year's prosecutions of travellers keeping slaves and running slave gangs. Prosecutions for affray and stabbings have also occurred.

candycoatedwaterdrops Sun 01-Sep-13 21:26:56

While I do not condone the behaviour of some travellers, I think people forget that there are settled people who behave as abysmally.

SilverApples Sun 01-Sep-13 21:55:07

Agreed candy, I was pointing out that the general belief that traveller communities are above the law is not true. It's just a question of proof and witnesses, which can be hard to get in many criminal cases in the settled communities too.

LittleEsme Sun 01-Sep-13 22:02:06

I'm a little bemused as to why my thread was zapped?

I didnt make any sweeping generalisations as such. I categorically stated that a "few dirty bastards trashed the free portaloos
provided by the local council and instead chose to leave their turds strategically placed on top of the large boulders surrounding the site".

I categorically didn't make a sweeping generalisation by accusing them ALL of dumping. But certainly a 'few' of them were involved on account of the sheer volume of turds left on the stones innit.

SilverApples Sun 01-Sep-13 22:06:49

You mean a post Esme?
I had one zapped as well, and I have been trying to relate only first-hand experiences and stay away from generalisations. But obviously I failed in that particular post, and I can't remember what I said.
It happens.

trice Sun 01-Sep-13 22:29:09

About 10 feet from our back fence a family pulled up with a caravan and set up camp. It was next to a busy footpath/bridal way which is used by dog walkers, joggers and cyclists.

The amount of abuse shouted at the family and the swearing was amazing. Groups of teens on bikes appeared with the sole object of getting into a confrontation with the "traveller" family. Perfectly normal looking joggers yelled at them to fuck off and die as they jogged past. Old ladies tutted and rang the council. The level of hatred and vitriol was amazing. The police visited them daily until they moved. It looked like a hell of a way to live.

SubliminalMassaging Mon 02-Sep-13 08:27:34

Many people within traveller communities do face large fines and charges for what they do

it's harder to collect money from those who have very little take Hahahahaaaa

but they have a higher rate of being jailed for their actions. The idea that people from traveller communities get away with everything has little basis.

Can you offer any evidence for this? Where did you get this piece of information? I agree that Travellers have a much higher rate of being jailed in general terms than members of the settled population, but are you saying that Travellers are more likely to be jailed for non-payment of taxes, debts or fines than settled people? Because you'll get another hollow laugh from me on that score.

Or are you talking about being 'jailed for their actions' encompassing all forms of crime? Again I'd have to question whether they are more likely to be jailed 'for their actions' than your average settled person or whether they are just more likely to get involved in actions that lead to jail. There is a distinct difference.

comingalongnicely Mon 02-Sep-13 08:33:03

OK, let's agree that somewhere out there are traveller families that don't lay waste to all they touch & cause an unholy nuisance to other people.

They're nice & we don't have a problem with them.

The rest should be pursued with the full weight of the law, moved on to a locked, temporary site & made to come back & tidy as community service. When they've done that, they're then free to roam the land, free as birds once more....

It's social responsibility - you don't trash other peoples areas and then fuck off.....

Crowler Mon 02-Sep-13 11:40:16

Someone made an interesting point a while back about how all land now had owners, and that it's inherently unfair.

I'm a fairly law-and-order type of person but I am sympathetic to this view. There should be a way for people to travel around a bit without constantly falling afoul of zoning regulations.

That being said, it's bonkers that an entire community can plonk itself down in an empty site and this could be considered some kind of cultural tradition. That's effectively a locality carrying the infrastructure costs for another small group that may or may not heap abuse upon its settled residents.

quoteunquote Mon 02-Sep-13 12:04:46

Get the local council to have some portaloos put there to make sure there is somewhere for them to go to the loo, as a building contractor, my hire firm supply them at £25 a week, I expect the council will get a similar price, far less then a clean up,

I can't take my LO for a walk in the pram(it feels really intimidating

They won't be there long, just go in the other direction, for now.
-
I can't walk my dogs without a lead anymore(they have couple of small dogs who chased mine yesterday,I have the feeling they are not vaccinated etc.)

the vaccination bit will be fine if your dog is vaccinated, walk else where until they are gone.
-
My older boys usedto play there with their mates,riding bikes and I just feel it is not safe anymore

they will be gone soon,

Start going to all your council meetings, make sure they install security bollards, so the park can never be accessed by vehicles again.

It a shame on society we turn a blind eye to the children not being in education,

I have nothing against travellers, it would be foolish for me to as I know a lot as friends, employ a lot, new age, and use to live a different lifestyle myself.

I have had problems with some targeting my building sites, but like any group of people some are horrid and some are lovely.

3MenAndMe Mon 02-Sep-13 13:48:42

Just a bit of un update...
After 3 very stressful days and sleepless nights the person from the council finally arrived today just to say that they are dealing with that...Great, the same was said on Friday.....
She gave me her contact details and said"there was no trouble, was it?" Well, no apart from:
*racial abuse and threats "move you f****g n****a or I will slice you up and put in the back of my van" when my neighbour asked them to to be careful as they almost knocked his kid when racing through the park
*their children terrorising kids on the playground with stcks and stones
*indicent exposure and pissing in the middle of the playfield, where children and parents are playing
* their dogs trying to bite people passing
*constant noise shoutin, barking, beeping, cars in and out of the park, fighting at 3am, vomiting next to me house
* and piles of rubbish

yellowballoons Mon 02-Sep-13 13:58:39

Crowler. I used to think that.
But I think the point is that travellers like to erm travel.
So I am not sure how many permanent sites they would actually want or like.

On another point, this thread is so littered with deletions that it is virtually unreadable, and doesnt make much sense.

SubliminalMassaging Mon 02-Sep-13 15:28:11

So, it's not going well then? Yep, these minority bad apples in every community really are a PITA aren't they? What a shame your first experience close up and personal with this specific ethnic minority has been tainted by the presence of a rather inconvenient large number of 'bad apples.' Hey ho, better luck next time eh?

ILetHimKeep20Quid Mon 02-Sep-13 16:16:51

How exactly have so many people had such bad experiences of what we're assured is the minority?

Chanatan Mon 02-Sep-13 17:17:21

How exactly have so many people had such bad experiences of what we're assured is the minority?
ever thought its because stories of hard working well behaved travellers dont sell newspapers or make good frothing on an internet forum.

SubliminalMassaging Mon 02-Sep-13 17:48:12

Why would they Chanatan?

Think about it. Why on earth would they? No-one writes in the newspapers about me just going about my normal, unassuming, law abiding, tax paying life.

AndThatsWhatIThinkOfYou Mon 02-Sep-13 23:56:49

subliminal - wish there was a 'like' button for your comments I agree.

The people who are so quick to defend them obviously have never had them set up camp near there house.

LessMissAbs Tue 03-Sep-13 00:22:00

To be fair, if this is where I think it is, I've had abuse shouted at me by the local children using that recreation ground, and didn't get any abuse shouted at me tonight when I went past. It was nice and quiet actually.

Surely they are there for the events happening this week and with the weather getting colder, will be going back to their own homes soon enough.

musicismylife Tue 03-Sep-13 01:36:41

Subliminal, are you for real 'It's a shame your first experience with this specific ethnic minority' hmm

You sound vile and patronising.

I could give you 'first experiences' with the indigenous population if you would like that? hmm

SubliminalMassaging Tue 03-Sep-13 05:51:23

I don't give a shiney shite how you think I sound. All this ' few bad apples' nonsense make me furious. What kind of proportion or percentage of a group of people as a whole do you think those 'bad apples' are supposed to represent? 1%? 5%? 10%?

In a population as small as the Irish Travellers just how have so many people had the same recurring experiences? Have we all been meeting the same ten percent?

TheFallenNinja Tue 03-Sep-13 06:45:57

It's amazing how much bullshit gets defended in the name of cultural differences.

Mimishimi Tue 03-Sep-13 06:53:37

Hmmmm...

AngryBeaver Tue 03-Sep-13 09:00:16

Dh is Irish. His town is regularly descended upon by travellers.
They cause no end of trouble, they intimidate, are violent, steal, leave a complete mess when they leave.

I know lots of stories but I'll give you just one of dh's.

As a teen he was working in a local shop.
A group of travellers came in. Lots of kids, the father/uncle and grandfather.

The kids started pulling things down from the shelves and stealing all the sweets, when he came out from behind the counter to stop them, the dad/uncles stole all the fags from behind the counter.

As he tried to reason with them, the grandfather swept out from the back room and summoned them all to leave.

When dh ran to the back room, all the takings were gone from the safe.

The towns people have experienced this for years and dread each visit.
Batten down the hatches time.

BlingBang Tue 03-Sep-13 10:22:03

Wonder though how much of this behaviour is a reaction to how they are perceived and treated by the general public. You only need to read a Mn thread on it and Mn is usually very tolerant and defensive on any kind or bad mouthing a minority. Can you imagine the level of vitriol and hate these folk from the majority population on a daily basis. Can understand why they might have a fuck you attitude as they are generally under attack from all sides.

And I did unusually lock my garage at night when they were staying near us recently so I'm not immune to the reputation they have.

SubliminalMassaging Tue 03-Sep-13 11:45:21

And I wonder why they are perceived so poorly and why they are 'under attack' from all sides if they do nothing (on the whole) to deserve it? Are we all so small minded and so easily impressionable that we form our opinions based on absolutely nothing at all except a trumped up reputation? Or do you think some of us have had repeated negative experiences that form the basis of our opinions?

BlingBang Tue 03-Sep-13 11:49:51

yes i think the majority can be small minded and will follow the general consensus. just seems to be a viscious circle with folk entrenched each side.

SubliminalMassaging Tue 03-Sep-13 14:01:21

Well perhaps now would be a great time to remind ourselves of the words of Martin Luther King.

'"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the colour of their skin but by the content of their character."

If I find anything to dislike in anyone it is NOT their ethnicity I object to but the content of their character. If it's good enough for Martin Luther King it's good enough for me.

mrsfuzzy Tue 03-Sep-13 14:06:38

there are plenty of nimbys in this thread but let's be honest who really wants them in their neighbourhood, and by the way at the risk of offending someone, why are they on the t.v with their weddings? i only know this as i've seen the ads, more to the point do people watch these programmes think they're great but complain about the illegal camps in real life? just curious

mrsfuzzy Tue 03-Sep-13 14:11:49

like anywhere is society there is a scummy element in their behaviur but the majority of people are ok, and i guess that is the case in the traveller community, sadly though the minority spoil it and give the majority a bad name.

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