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To think size 12 is not "heavy"

(731 Posts)
CruCru Fri 30-Aug-13 18:51:24

I keep seeing comments on here from people who are size 10/12 who think they are heavy. I would never think this is even remotely heavy, just a healthy slim size.

Depends on height I guess. I'm 5ft 7 and a size 14. I don't look massive, just the odd lump/bump.

I'd look much bigger if I was 5ft! smile (but on the average woman, no way does 10/12 look 'heavy').

SoupDragon Fri 30-Aug-13 18:53:41

It's not healthy and slim if you're 5ft tall.

Mintyy Fri 30-Aug-13 18:54:03

Some people have an unhealthy obsession with their weight and size.

Famzilla Fri 30-Aug-13 18:54:21

Well that depends entirely on their body shape.

From my own perspective a size 12 would equal about 12-13stone.

CruCru Fri 30-Aug-13 18:54:23

I would also say that 5 ft7 and size 14 is not heavy.

LemonBreeland Fri 30-Aug-13 18:56:11

I am 5ft 3 and at size 12 can be overweight. So yes it can be heavy.

TheFillyjonk Fri 30-Aug-13 18:56:31

A size 12, and possibly a 12, would be heavy for me. I was a 12 as a teenager and I weighed at least a stone more than I should have. Of course, I am a short-arse.

IThinkOfHappyWhenIThinkOfYou Fri 30-Aug-13 18:58:00

Depends how tall you are, surely. I'm overweight and a size 8, so if I was a 12 then I'd be heavy heavier

TheFillyjonk Fri 30-Aug-13 18:58:03

That should read, a size 10 and possibly a 12

It depends on their height and build surely. I'm a size 8, 5 foot 4. I have a decent figure but with a little excess around my waist. (Id be a natural size 6 but I like my food too much,!) If I went up to a size 12 it would be very heavy on my frame, but not so for someone who was taller or with a bigger build I suppose.

hettienne Fri 30-Aug-13 19:00:18

Well I am a size 10 and have a BMI of 27/28 so pretty heavy! At size 12 I would probably be at the top of overweight.

NutellaStraightFromTheJar Fri 30-Aug-13 19:00:25

I think it depends on your height and body frame size. I'm 5 ft 6 and went through a phase of being at the larger end of a size 12. I was definitely a bit too heavy for my body type, and probably heading towards the unhealthy BMI range (although I think BMI accuracy can also be way off). That's not counting size during and immediately post-pregnancy though.

It probably also depends how much of your size is made up of muscle - mine was definitely made up of fat! A muscular size 12-14 probably looks less 'heavy' than a size 10-12 who just carries fat.

LovesBeingOnHoliday Fri 30-Aug-13 19:01:47

I don't understand how a size is heavy if you are short but not if you are tall, if it's the same size isn't it tge same confused

SparkyTGD Fri 30-Aug-13 19:01:54

It depends on height and build, I'm 5ft 6 and when I could fit into a size 12, I was slim.

5ft 7 and size 14 isn't necessarily 'heavy' but could be, depending on build. Someone could need a 14 because of large frame/wide hips but the item baggy in other areas & someone else could 'fill' the item completely IYKWIM so be much plumper.

flipchart Fri 30-Aug-13 19:03:32

It's all relative.

hettienne Fri 30-Aug-13 19:03:34

Loves - if you are 5ft and weigh 11 stone you are fat, if you are 6ft and weigh 11 stone you are thing.

ImFineThankYou Fri 30-Aug-13 19:03:51

It all depends on height.
I'm size 12 and my bmi is 24 so close to overweight but not there.
I do not weight 12-13st!!

I'm five two and a size 12.
No fat however, am quite muscly confused
I weigh 9 and a half stones.

SparkyTGD Fri 30-Aug-13 19:04:39

Loves if someone is 5ft 9 and fits in the same item of clothing eg a dress, as someone who is 5ft then the person who is taller will look and be much slimmer.

beals692 Fri 30-Aug-13 19:05:03

Now I'm worrying that I am overweight because I'm 5 ft 2 and a size 12.

According to the NHS's BMI calculator I am in the 'healthy weight' band' though..

sparkle12mar08 Fri 30-Aug-13 19:05:36

A current size 12 is probably on the very top side of healthy for most people, especially those of us under about 5' 4". I'm 5' 3" and a size 12 in most high street stores and my bmi is well into the overweight territory and I need to loose a stone and a half. Yet I have size 12 clothes from ten years ago that won't go over my thighs. Vanity sizing is rampant and that and on top of that the sleb magazines are completely distorting our perception of what healthy' should be, in completely opposing ways. We're conditioned to think that size 0 is desirable, but hey we can get get into a UK 12 so that's okay, right? Wrong, for most people. Sorry.

Surely "heavy" is just a PC way of saying "fat". IMO fat people wouldn't fit into a 12.

Picturesinthefirelight Fri 30-Aug-13 19:07:08

I'm 5 ft 4, have been a size 12 for years and have always classed myself as slim.

UseHerName Fri 30-Aug-13 19:07:29

i'm a 12 atm and 5 foot - the heaviest i've been excepting pregnancy... and i feel it. i mean i look good as i've a good shape - in fact, i don't think i've ever looked so well or done so much exercise, but i can can feel it

I agree, loves. We're not talking about weight, we're talking about a clothes size. A 5ft size 12 and a 6ft size 12 would be rather different weights.

MrsDeVere Fri 30-Aug-13 19:09:12

Is that how sizing works? confused

I thought if you were tall and 9st you would be a 8-10 but if you were short and weighed that amount you would be in a bigger size.

Am I being thick? <don't answer that>

CruCru Fri 30-Aug-13 19:09:29

I am waaaay over a size 12 (very pregnant but also overweight). However I know that I am too heavy.

Perhaps my perceptions are out. I remember being a 12 and people kept saying I was too thin. I am 1.65m and quite muscular.

UseHerName Fri 30-Aug-13 19:09:36

when i say feel it, like my arse is knocking stuff over and i can feel my new love handles hitting off stuff and bulging!

blush

I agree that it depends on height.

I am 5'6 and a size 10/12. I weigh 9st 10lbs, which I think is roughly a BMI of 22, so not overweight. I would like to be more toned (and am working on it) but I'm quite happy with my weight.

WhoNickedMyName Fri 30-Aug-13 19:10:35

I'd be fat as a size 12 because I'm short with a petite build. I start looking chubby at a size 10.

IfYouLoveSomebodyLetThemSleep Fri 30-Aug-13 19:10:43

I feel a bit heavy at size 12, but sadly it seems to be my natural size. I'm 5ft 3 so does make me look a bit dumpy!

I wouldn't look remotely slim if I was a size 12.
I'm 5'2, and don't carry weight well.

Bowlersarm Fri 30-Aug-13 19:11:59

I am a size 12 and i would say I was heavy. Just over 10 and a half stone. Maybe it's the shape of someone rather than their weight that determines clothes size.

I'm a 10/12 and 5'2. I weigh around 9'6 usually. I'm slim built (narrow shoulders, skinny wrists and ankles, slim legs), so don't look or feel especially 'heavy' but I'm a stone heavier than I was when I had dd2 16 years ago and my boobs make me feel much bigger than I actually am.

thenightsky Fri 30-Aug-13 19:12:40

I'm 5ft 9in and a 12. I feel on the heavy side and feel much better at a 10.

A lot depends on build, posture etc. I'm a sloucher which makes me look wider I think.

goodasitgets Fri 30-Aug-13 19:13:23

Well it depends.
Two people both size 12 and same weight. One eats lots of junk and doesn't exercise and is unfit. One eats healthily and exercises a lot
You can't tell anything from a dress size or weight except for the dress size or weight, it's a number

SaucyJack Fri 30-Aug-13 19:14:03

I'm five foot and a size twelve, and slim and healthy.......... and fifteen weeks pregnant with number three.

frick me, I wish I was a fat size 12... (finally about to get the time to go to the gym once youngest starts playgroup next week, maybe I'll end up an obese 14 instead of a post cs 18)

NoComet Fri 30-Aug-13 19:17:09

No adult woman over 5' can be a healthy size 6 surely?

My exactly average sized 12y is a size 6, my tiny aunt and her tiny DD are probably size 6-8, but they are my DD2's hight too. They are totally in proportion and both incredibly pretty. Even at 64 my aunt looked stunning in her mother of the bride outfit.

I'm only 5'4" and well over weight at size 16, but I have big hips and would look daft any skinnier than my size 12 wedding dress.

DD1(15) is 5'6-7", she's a curvy 12, she could be a 10 and look nice, but no slimmer, she has my hips too.

SHarri13 Fri 30-Aug-13 19:17:46

I'm with mrsDevere, confused. Surely all size 8 are the same in width etc so your height wouldn't matter? Unless you bought from a petite range.

rockybalboa Fri 30-Aug-13 19:18:12

Depends how tall you are. I'm a 12/14 but I'm only 5ft 3 so I'm a fatty.

beals692 Fri 30-Aug-13 19:18:36

Thinking back I've always worn size 12 clothes, no matter what my weight. I wore size 12 when I was 7-stone 18-year-old - I think the fashion was for baggy clothes. smile

Nowadays, on the rare occasions I go shopping, I have to take both a 10 and 12 into the cubicle because I never know whether it's going to be a genuine 12 or a vanity 12.

UseHerName Fri 30-Aug-13 19:19:08

ok, so i'm 5ft nothing and between 9 stone 3 and 9 stone 7 depending on the menstrual cycle and amount of wine consumed that weekend wink

lottieandmia Fri 30-Aug-13 19:20:14

Whatever anyone says, imo the entertainment industry does affect the way people feel about their weight and never more so than today. In the 90s, if you look at music videos and films, women were nowhere near as thin as is the case in music videos and films today.

Beals - me too. I suspect part of that is to do with my frame (ie my natural size minus any padding!) and part of it is to do with sizing getting bigger. I refuse to think I'm overweight at a 12 though, whatever some people on here seem to think!

hettienne Fri 30-Aug-13 19:21:54

Lyra - yes, but a 5ft size 12 might be 10 stone and overweight, a 5'9" size 12 might be 12 stone and a healthy weight.

BabyStone Fri 30-Aug-13 19:23:59

5foot here, my clothes range from an 8-12 and I weigh 8 1/2 stone. BMI is 22 i think. I wouldn't consider myself fat or 'heavy'. (small frame, chunky thighs)

Marilyn in jeans
KK in jeans

How perceptions of female bodies have changed over time is shown well in these two pictures, I think.

UseHerName Fri 30-Aug-13 19:25:38

that is definitely the case lottie

90's group All Saints were a great example of this - slim, but 90's slim, not today's slim

equally my mother, born late fifties, teenager in seventies had the likes of Farah Fawcett and Suzi Quatro as beauty-ideals

twistyfeet Fri 30-Aug-13 19:26:57

surely sizes are widths? I'm 5'10 and a 10/12 with a BMI of 19 and look gaunt (ive been unwell).
Buggered if I understand sizing. I've have wide shoulders though. And teeny peas for boobs sad

Talkinpeace Fri 30-Aug-13 19:27:14

UK Clothes sizes are utterly meaningless nowadays
I'm anything between a 1970's size 12 and a Sainsburys size 6

The only true test is a tape measure and a set of scales

check here
www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsHk9WC7fnQ

if your waist is more than half your height you are carrying excess fat around your vital organs

Crowler Fri 30-Aug-13 19:28:04

As has been said, it's all relative.

I live in a kind of mumsy section of West London and I don't feel hugely fat, although I'd love to lose 10 pounds. If I head one mile east to Chelsea I feel hideously fat.

I had an errand to deal with at the Chanel boutique in Brompton Cross yesterday and I felt obese.

Dalaimama Fri 30-Aug-13 19:29:11

I'm wearing a size 10 pair of jeans at the moment. I am 5' 9" and need to shift about a stone or more. The thing is - they are jeans from Next - vanity sizing at its finest - I can't get a size 12 oasis jeans past my knees. so I guess it depends on the shop!

GibberTheMonkey Fri 30-Aug-13 19:29:27

I'm not overweight at a 12/14
The 14 is to allow for wide hips. I'm somewhere between 5ft 10 and 5ft 11 though. I don't think anyone would call me fat or heavy.

it's very difficult to compare people what with varying factors of height, fitness and natural build

GibberTheMonkey Fri 30-Aug-13 19:30:46

Talkin that's someone's memorial service thanks

Talkinpeace Fri 30-Aug-13 19:31:19

AAAAGGHH wrong link from different thread !!
www.modelmydiet.com/

right link

Talkinpeace Fri 30-Aug-13 19:32:09

PS the "wrong link" was Graham Chapman's memorial service - one of the best videos to uplift the soul on a Friday evening that there is (seriously)

LifeofPo Fri 30-Aug-13 19:33:01

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GibberTheMonkey Fri 30-Aug-13 19:36:45

Talkin- well that's cast rather a gloom over the evening, hasn't it wink

Poppyhat Fri 30-Aug-13 19:36:47

If I at 5ft 2 and size 12 went shopping with my 6ft size 12 friend ,and both chose the same dress? The only difference would be the length of it on us.... A 12 is a 12 regardless of height or weight.
Of course we won't weigh the same,she is almost a foot taller than me.but we measure the same waist/chest/thigh.

mysteryfairy Fri 30-Aug-13 19:36:54

There is a test that says your waist circumference should be no more than half of your height for you to be healthy:
article here

I personally think I would look extremely hefty if mine was (5ft 10 and waist is 25 but could healthily be upto 35 using that measure!) but it illustrates that tall people can have proportionately bigger dimensions than shorter women and still be healthy.

SorrelForbes Fri 30-Aug-13 19:38:44

I'M 5'4" and have clothes in my wardrobe that range from a size 8 to a size 12. In most shops I'm a 10 or a 12. I don't weigh myself but my measurements are 38/28/40. If ordering on-line I never fit the size that relates to my measurements, it's always too big. Odd.

tanukiton Fri 30-Aug-13 19:38:53

5"9 bit of tummy lard when size 12. Size 10 is more toned and less cake. I do think the uk is getting fatter. I come back each year and see more and more obese people.

dufflefluffle Fri 30-Aug-13 19:40:35

I'm 5ft 7 and a size 12 and I could stand to lose a stone - and I am not body image obsessed

AmberDextrous Fri 30-Aug-13 19:41:08

I'm 5ft 6 & a half and about 10 stone I am a 10-12 dress size people always comment on me looking slim though i am not sure and am over critical of myself. i think a lot of is to do with posture & good clothes really. In my twenties I was an 8 and for the time & the skimpy outfits it was great fun smile

hettienne Fri 30-Aug-13 19:41:16

Poppy, but a short person of x waist might be fat, while a tall person of x waist would be skinny.

marriedinwhiteisback Fri 30-Aug-13 19:44:13

Or looked at another way. When I was a size 8 and thought I was fat I was actually anorexic. Now I'm a size 14 and a recovered anorexic I know I'm slightly too fat but I am more rational now and find it easier to accept myself as I am. 7st 8lb then, 11st, 7lb now. I know which is better for me. 5'6" btw.

UseHerName Fri 30-Aug-13 19:44:40

Crowler ahahahha until recently i taught at a university and every freshers week i feel like an old fat hag - i'm 26 fgs!

Bubbles1066 Fri 30-Aug-13 19:46:37

I weigh 8 and a half stone, am 5'4 and am a 10-12. I have very little fat but I would simply not fit into an 8. I have quite broad shoulders which means I need a 10-12 to fit over them, same with my hips. No fat, just bone. People always guess I'd be an 8 but there's no way! It totally depends on your build as well as height.

AnyoneButLulu Fri 30-Aug-13 19:48:27

Depends on the shop. I'm 5'3" with a BMI in the mid 20s and a true size 12/13 depending on where you measure (as per tailor's measurements). But if I fitted a modern M&S or Next size 12 snuggly then I'd be bordering on obese - even their size 10s are pretty baggy on me. I've got some insane rogue GAP "size 8" jeans which literally fall off me, and a size 12 suit from the late 80s which I can't even think about zipping up, I'm only keeping it in case I have an unexpected 6 week bout of dysentery.

As people get taller then their skeletons do naturally scale up a bit - a size 26 inch waist, which is very reasonable if you're 5 foot nothing, wouldn't be natural for a six footer. You don't increase in width in direct proportion to your height, but by a fraction of the increase, which is why the BMI factor is squared rather than cubed - ideally the exponent would be more like 2.5, ie somewhere in the middle, but that's too mathematically tricky to be realistically applied.

I'm 5 feet 2, 9 stone and currently a 12. On my frame, a 12 is definitely heavy.

My mother, 4 feet 11, kept getting asked when she was due when her weight hit 8 stone and a size 10. All depends on height and frame.

thebody Fri 30-Aug-13 20:04:04

i am 5' 2 and look huge at size 12.

charleyturtle Fri 30-Aug-13 20:04:17

I am about 5ft and a size 12, I look very fat, I feel very fat lets face it i'm fat. I was only ever this big when I was about 13 and was bullied horribly for it. Fair enough, when I look at photos of me back then I want to cry, I look hideous.

However I have a friend who is a size 12, she is slightly taller than me and built more broadly (if that makes sense) she has a much more healthy muscular look to her.

If you compared us you would never think we were the same size! So I guess my point is its subjective, my body shape suits a size 4/6 (8 at a push) where as my friends body shape looks great at a 12 and if she were a size 8 she would look far too thin and unhealthy. in my opinion anyway.

LucilleBluth Fri 30-Aug-13 20:06:25

Fuck me, I'm a size 12, 9 1/2 stone, 5ft 4'..... I mean sure I'm no supermodel but I'm not that big...... but according to 99% of people on this thread I am, how odd.

Being different heights doesn't make a difference to what size clothes would mean that you are overweight.

A woman's frame can put her in a bigger size, a woman who is 6 ft could be shaped like a pencil ( look at some African etc women), a woman from a different ethnic background with big hip bones, wouldn't ever be that small, unless they were dead.

I was medically underweight and looked gaunt, but I still took a size 8-10, even though I'm 5'3", my DD is naturally a size 6. I look well at a size 10-12, depending on the shop sizing. But I would have to be fat to fit into a Marks size 12.

It's how and where you carry body fat that matters.

Coconutty Fri 30-Aug-13 20:08:14

I'm 5'4 and a 12 and feel fat all the time.

Coconutty Fri 30-Aug-13 20:09:29

But I have very skinny legs and an apple tummy.

GrimmaTheNome Fri 30-Aug-13 20:10:42

I'm 5'1, about 9.5 stone at the moment, 10/12 depending on make and I'd say 'sturdy' rather than 'heavy'. Depends where you have what - how much is muscle, whether fat is on tummy or legs.

AnyoneButLulu Fri 30-Aug-13 20:12:08

I'm pretty close to your measurements Lucille and no I'm definitely not heavy by civilian standards - we're "true" size 12s. But if we were 5 foot nothing with the same measurements. And I reckon I'd need the best part of an extra stone to fit a vanity sized 12 (M&S or Next) which would make me fairly chunky.

Squitten Fri 30-Aug-13 20:13:12

I was very lucky to lose a lot of weight through BF DC2 and I dropped from a size 16 to a 12. I'm 5,10" and it was definitely nice and slim on me.

Fingers crossed DC3 isn't about to ruin it sad

catinboots Fri 30-Aug-13 20:14:39

My friend's husband referred to me as 'chunky and big-boned' on holiday.

I'm 5'5" and 10st 4lb with quite a small frame. Okay I'm no Kylie but I'm hardly Miranda.

I hated him silently for the rest if the holiday.

DeathByTray Fri 30-Aug-13 20:19:05

At one point, my sister and I were exactly the same weight and height but I always looked much slimmer.

I have a very slim top half with a flat chest and long neck (sound like a bloody giraffe). All my weight is on my hips and legs. If I dress to suit my shape, I give the illusion of being very slim.

DSis carries her weight around her middle, has a good size bust and rounder face but very skinny legs.

Comparing height/weight/clothes size is useless.

My friend's husband once asked me how on earth my skinny legs managed to hold up my boobs. Git. smile

The weird thing is that I am often a 12 in M&S (especially in tops and trousers - dresses and skirts can often be a ten) but I am also a 12 in Topshop. And in Whistles, depending on the style, I sometimes need an 8. Tbh I just buy what fits - I have from size XS to size 16 in my wardrobe, depending on the shop, style, phase of the moon etc.

GrandstandingBlueTit Fri 30-Aug-13 20:24:40

The thing is, if you are overweight, you are never, ever going to fathom how a size 12 might be considered a bit hefty on some people. You just aren't.

However, when you are that size 12 person and can grab wodges of thigh and tum, then you do understand.

But woe betide anyone who is a size 12 expecting any sympathy for not being happy with their body...! They're expected to be grateful, even though women are conditioned to be unhappy with their lot, no matter how nice and functional and unique their bodies are.

DeathByTray Fri 30-Aug-13 20:24:57

Remus grin

I did once walk behind a woman with a very large bust and the tiniest feet I have ever seen. They were toddler size feet !!

I marvelled at how she managed to stay upright.

marriedinwhiteisback Fri 30-Aug-13 20:25:01

Agree about build too. I am broad and teutonic and even at size 8 my shoulders, hips, feet, etc are still wide.

UseHerName Fri 30-Aug-13 20:25:23

alignment of the planets Remus

I'm 5'6 and a half and slimmed down to a 12 from a 14/16, losing 15 pounds. I look normal weight now but not slender - I had a goal of 10 stone but can see I could healthily go to 9.5 stone and lose the softly rounded tummy, get a tighter waist shape and get leaner.

So that's my new goal, and will probably make me a 10 on top and below in some shops but its more about seeing how my silhouette can get sleeker and my middle leaner and stronger than being a size. I can't change the size of my pelvic girdle or ribs or shoulders, nor the length of my legs.

Death - mine are a 3 and a half. I'm doomed.

DalmationDots Fri 30-Aug-13 20:31:02

I am a size 12. I am 5ft 7. I look normal weight, not super skinny but not fat. I am about 10.5 stone (trying to get it down but not because I think I am overweight, more because I think 0.5-1 stone lighter I would look and feel fab rather than feeling 'OK' about my weight)

Height is a big factor. For me, I can usually fit into size 10s but they don't look flattering at all.

And tbh in shops I differ so much from size 10-14 depending on the shop sizing.

ouryve Fri 30-Aug-13 20:32:28

I'm 5'4 and a 12-14 and borderline for BMI and waist measurement. I've never been less than a size 10, even when I was an underweight teenager. With a BMI of 18, I still had 35" hips. I got down to a BMI of 23, a couple of years ago - about a stone lighter than I am now - and was a size smaller. I couldn't even get jeans to fit me because my hips were down to 36" and even men's jeans were too hippy on me, since having the boys and galloping middle age have destroyed my waistline. My shape has changed so much from when I was a teen. People were telling me I looked gaunt at that weight.

I also have much bigger boobs than I had, even 11 years ago, when I was heavy, with a BMI of 29. Correcting for crap bra measuring, back then, I was a 34D (measured a 38B, wearing a 36C because it fitted me so much better!). I'm a 32FF, now!

NachoAddict Fri 30-Aug-13 20:35:17

I am 5' 2 and 8st 8 a size ten/twelve nd i feel fat. I carry any extra weight on my boobs and belly which is why I feel fat even though others say I am slim. I just cant see past the mummy tummy.

Pinupgirl Fri 30-Aug-13 20:39:07

There are really far too many women on here way too obsessed with their weight. I am 5'6,no idea what I weigh but am a size 16 in clothes. I am probably a couple of stone over weight but couldn't give a shit. I am trying to eat a bit healthier and I exercise a couple of times a week but I certainly don't beat myself up because Im a bit chubby. Self confidence is everything.

shockers Fri 30-Aug-13 20:39:36

I'm 5' 3, size 12/14 and feel pretty good (I do quite a bit to keep healthy), until I see a photo of myself... then there's no denying that I look overweight.

absentmindeddooooodles Fri 30-Aug-13 20:46:30

Depends on the shape and build. Ive been a size 12 at 10 stone. Im 5.9" . I didnt look "fat" I was healthy not over weight or underweight.

My sister is 5.1". She is a size 12 now. For her it is a little less healthy. She has quiye a small bone structure and fills out a 12 well weighing around 12 stone. She does not look fat, but is not happy with her weight and would be much happier in a 10. The issue is health. Not being thin or fat for vanity sake.

My mum on the other hand is still a 12 in teousers. Shes 5.6" and looks very slim. She has big hips ( bone structure) and there is not an ounce of fat on her. You could in no way call jer heavy or even slightly over weight.

Its all relative but I dont think a size 12 woman can ever be unhealthily fat or heavy. A little overweight maybe. But not massively.

OneWaySystemBlues Fri 30-Aug-13 20:49:43

I'm 5'4, weight 8st 2lbs and have a BMI of 19.5, which is at the lower end of normal. I am a size 10-12. The interesting thing is I have weighed the same for the last 20 years and a size 10 these days is the same size as a 12 used to be 20 years ago. I know this because I could NEVER have got into a 10 20 years ago, whereas now I'm finding that 12 is sometimes too big and a 10 is fine. And my size 12 jeans from 15 years or so ago are the same size as my newer size 10 jeans!

GrandstandingBlueTit Fri 30-Aug-13 20:50:08

It's easy to dismiss people as being 'way too obsessed with their weight', but actually, you have absolutely no idea whether that is the case or not.

Certainly not if purely going on the strength of this thread.

Tryharder Fri 30-Aug-13 20:52:12

Stopped reading when people who are 5'9" and size 10 say they are fat.

NO YOU'RE NOT AND YOU KNOW IT!

Poppyhat Fri 30-Aug-13 20:57:46

How can one persons 22inch(or whatever a 12 actually is) waist be slim and another's be fat. They still have a size 12 waist.
I agree that their weights can be very different .one may be underweight,the other over,by BMi charts. But they are still size 12.
Surely nobody thinks a size 12 is fat?

MrsKoala Fri 30-Aug-13 21:02:55

My one top tip to feeling great about the way you look is NEVER go to Milan. You will just end up feeling like a badly dressed giant.

I'm 5ft10in and a 12-14. Pretty alright really...or so i thought sad People actually stared at me in disbelief. DH (who is 6ft2in and 17 stone of solid muscle) pointed out that we were not given flyers for any of the cool clubs and bars and people were shock when we walked down the street. In restaurants people at other tables openly stared at us eating. Honestly, you feel like shit. None of the men appear to be over 5ft6in and 9stone. Similar experiences in Milan too, where men would come up to DH and shake his hand in bars and say things like 'how do you satisfy such a big woman' or 'what a WOMAN' and gesticulate with their hands to my enormity. They thought they were being complimentary but i just wanted to cry. My new rule is only holiday in America - but not California. wink

ILikeBirds Fri 30-Aug-13 21:03:28

I'm a size 10 at just under 11 stone with a bmi of 25, I think because of how I put on weight (fairly evenly all over) I'd need to put on at least a stone before I was a size 12 and I'd be firmly into the overweight bmi category.

So I find it perfectly believable that for some people a size 12 would be fat. It doesn't mean a size 12 is fat

Mintyy Fri 30-Aug-13 21:07:47

Tryharder
Of course there are people with eating disorders and body image issues on Mumsnet. There are hundreds of thousands of them in the general population, so naturally they are also on here. They'll all deny it, because that is what addicts do. Deny deny deny deny deny. Feel sorry for them, not angry.

ShootMeNowPlease Fri 30-Aug-13 21:07:58

MrsKoala, a tall friend of mine had that experience in Milan (she's 5'10" and a size 12)! She was there for a year to work - she's pretty strong-minded but she did say she wanted to cry when she'd been there six months, wanted to buy new clothes and in every shop she went into the assistants looked her up and down and said "oh no, we don't have anything big enough for you".

Mintyy Fri 30-Aug-13 21:10:15

MrsKoala
Have you ever been to Portugal? I swear that the average height there for a man is about 5'4 and for a woman about 5'.

AnyoneButLulu Fri 30-Aug-13 21:11:41

Officially the waist size for a size 12 is between 28 and 30 inches, depending on the shop, but I reckon some shops' waist size for a size 12 has to be at least 31 inches, which is the beginning of the female "at risk" band.

Poppyhat Fri 30-Aug-13 21:14:23

Maybe this shows how the BMI scale doesn't really work.
If a doctor told my size 12 DD she was fat because some calculation said so ,I would be thinking he had gone mad.

Mia4 Fri 30-Aug-13 21:16:03

On the flip side, you wouldn't say size 12 was too skinny either OP, but my almost 6ft friend is very skinny and is desperately trying to get to a 16- so it does depend on heightbody shape/structure.

If i was size 14 I'd look very overweight, if I was 8 I'd look way too skinny- that's my body shape. My friend is tiny, just under 5ft, she's a size 4 and is completely in proportion-anything more and she looks overweight, anything under she looks too thin.

Writerwannabe83 Fri 30-Aug-13 21:16:18

I'm a size 10, weighing just under 9 stone with a BMI of of 20.7...

However, a guy told me that I was borderline in terms of what he would call a 'biggish' girl shock !!!

Talkinpeace Fri 30-Aug-13 21:18:01

Weight is not a health issue UNLESS you
- are carrying excess fat around your vital organs (height weight ratio)
- are family wise predisposed to heart disease, stroke, diabetes, angina, alzheimers, COPD
in which case, the sooner you can get your weight back into the healthy range, the less of a burden you will be on your kids in old age
- have other health issues
- have increased cancer risk of any internal organ

Totally relative though isn't it? People on this thread shorter than me, heavier than me say they look gaunt...I'm an 8-10, 9.6/7stone, 5'9" and feel tubby.

Probably because all my weight is round my middle so I can wear size 8trousers because they're hipster style? Not topshop though - still have to squeeze into their size 10 skinnies and the muffin top is hideous

But, my mum is a size 12, she's 5'6" and she looks great

Talkinpeace Fri 30-Aug-13 21:19:29

poppyhat
ungraded BMI is only for over 18's, but if she is a size 12 she is heavier than I am and I'm not far off 50

MrsKoala Fri 30-Aug-13 21:20:11

Ha! yes Shoot and Mintyy - Portugal, Italy, Spain and China - all no go zones for giant freaks like me.

I've said this on here before, but i'll say it again, my friend is 5ft5, her sister is 5ft. The 3 of us went out and pics were taken and put on facebook (cheers!) and it doesn't look like medium sized friend is normal and me and sister are bigger/smaller. Instead it looks totally like the 'smaller' person is 'normal', friend is chunky, and I am some kind of soviet union experiment to win at shot putt. Fucking depressing because i am perfectly in proportion. So pics of me and DH look completely normal. When you start adding other people to it we just look mutated. (Poor DS is going to have the same, at 11mo he is taller/heavier than a 2 yo)

ouryve Fri 30-Aug-13 21:23:16

Self confidence is fine when you're in your 20s, Pinupgirl. When you're in your 40s, you're acutely aware that no one in the preceding generation of your family made it to 40 without being on a hefty load of drugs for heart related problems and painfully aware that your feet have collapsed and your knee joints are bent out of shape due to previously undiagnosed hypermobility, you pay a bit of attention to what you eat and what you weigh.

littlemisswise Fri 30-Aug-13 21:28:10

I'm 5'4, weigh 8st4 and am an 8-10. I was around 9st4 and a size 12 this time last year and I looked awful. I felt fat and looked fat. I feel much happier at the size I am now. I was this size when I was 16, this is the size I am meant to be. I have been lighter, around 7 and a half stone, but I looked awful then too.

mendandmakedo Fri 30-Aug-13 21:28:41

I am currently 9 stone 3.5 pounds height 5'2 and a size 10 -12. I have weighed 13 stone 4 as a 20 something and a size 16 -18. I am aware I am not overweight. But technically I am at larger end of healthy BMI. Although I should be happy with my weight now I still feel I could do with losing another 7 pounds. But I love food too much and struggle not putting weight on. I think if I did more exercise and was more toned this would help. I agree with others shape and build plays a part. As does fat and muscle ratio.

lljkk Fri 30-Aug-13 21:35:18

On me size 12 trousers would be heavy. Not even fat, but heavy for sure. I need size 14-16 tops, though, even at my thinnest.

Poppyhat Fri 30-Aug-13 21:36:04

Talkinpeace
My DD is 28
I don't understand your postconfused

sweetiepie1979 Fri 30-Aug-13 21:46:01

I'm 5'2 when I'm size 12 I'm fat

Pinupgirl Fri 30-Aug-13 21:56:52

I was much slimmer when I got a rare form of cancer.Skinny smokers are not healthier.than size 16 me.Life is far too short to worry about what disease will get you first.I like to enjoy myself too much to suffer deprivation of any of the good things.I understand other people dont have my confidence and spend.their.lives thinking they would be happier a stone lighter.I pity them.

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 30-Aug-13 22:00:22

I'm 5'6 and do look heavy once I get to the larger side of a size 10.

So yabu - different people carry weight differently.

Poppyhat Fri 30-Aug-13 22:01:55

Pinupgirl
You talk sensesmile

MamaTo3Boys Fri 30-Aug-13 22:07:10

I'm 5ft 4 and a size 12. The nurse at the doctors the other day told me I'm overweight hmm

I had to ask her to repeat herself as she was definately a little overweight herself

PinUpGirl - wise words. smile

Talkinpeace Fri 30-Aug-13 22:10:51

How do you define size 12 ?
Clothes sizes have no meaning at all.

Weight and waist / height ratio are what can be independently checked

12 today was 16 in 1970 : When Dudley Moore was lusting after a 10 ...

Nottalotta Fri 30-Aug-13 22:19:57

Not sure why people don't understand that a 12 CAN be fat on a short person. I am 5 ft 7. I'm currently a size 14 and a bit fat. Actually weigh 12st 6 which sounds hefty but am very active and muscular. Have gained a bit of podge. I look average at 11st 6 and really quite thin at 10st 6.

My mum is 5ft 2. She weighs less than me but looks much fatter. She is shorter and much less fit. My size 14's would not fit her.

FiftyShadesofGreyMatter Fri 30-Aug-13 22:20:07

30 odd years ago the average woman in Britain was a 14-16, IIRC.

Talkinpeace said "12 today was 16 in 1970", have the sizes been reclassified or something??

Talkinpeace Fri 30-Aug-13 22:23:16

fiftyshades
Absolutely. Vanity sizing has reached the scale of panflation : all clothes sizes were massively rejigged 12 years ago
www.economist.com/node/21552214

Nellelephant Fri 30-Aug-13 23:00:27

I really don't see the point in paying attention to clothes sizing. It varies between shops and the items of clothing themselves. In my wardrobe I have clothes ranging from a size 8 to a size 14 and they all fit me.

I'm 5ft 6in and weigh 9 and a half stone. And as for bras, well I have to hunt down 28in backs! My body makes no sense to retail sizing so there's no point in trying.

Crownjewel Fri 30-Aug-13 23:42:17

5'2", 9st bang on, size 12 - at 8st I was size 6 and felt ridiculously underweight - it's all about how you feel, not what number your labels say...

propertyNIGHTmareBEFOREXMAS Fri 30-Aug-13 23:49:18

Size 12 on me is big. I feel huge at that size. I am a narrowish frame and tall. It might suits other builds better.

MrsKoala Sat 31-Aug-13 04:21:00

Agree with the sizing frustration/inconsistencies. I am a 12 in Hobbs, a 12-14 in French Connection and Reiss (depending on style) and a 16 in Gap. I doubt a top shop item would even get near me. I am usually 12st 4lb and if i get under 12st you can count every rib and my collar and hip bones stick out dreadfully and if i go over 12st 8lb i look pudgy confused

tanukiton Sat 31-Aug-13 07:29:28

. I Think some people need to stop thinking about weight and concentrate on th wobble insteead. There is going to a lot of heart problems otherwise. BMI only works for me if I am carrying muscle not lard.

ShootMeNowPlease Sat 31-Aug-13 10:18:45

Size 12 on me would be huge - I'm 5'2" and have a very small frame: I look wobbly and tubby at the moment and I'm an 8 - but it's not inevitably "heavy": you need more information to decide whether it's too heavy on any individual or not.

Metalgoddess Sat 31-Aug-13 10:24:03

This is a terrible thread, not everyone can naturally be size 6/8/10 etc, it depends on frame, skeleton size, genetic factors and metabolic rates. I am 5'4" and weigh 9 and a half stones.
I am generally a size 12 but have clothes ranging from a 6 up to a 16. How on earth can being a healthy BMI be classed as heavy or fat or any other negative word meaning overweight. There is no wonder eating disorders are on the increase with the media portrayal of celebrities bodies and threads like this on the Internet. I fear for our childrens (mainly daughters) health and well being if all they are being shown is that you need to be a small size to be beautiful. I am not advocating obesity, that is just as damaging but having a healthy BMI and not focusing on clothes sizes.

Also bear in mind that if you are of a certain age, being underweight will show on your face. Tiny arse and hag face is not a good look wink

FrigginRexManningDay Sat 31-Aug-13 10:37:43

I am short,with a short torso and a big arse. Even in my teens when I didn't eat properly and my ribs and bones were visible I wore a size 10 for my bum. I wasn't healthy,from the front I looked awfully thin and frail. After I had dd I was a size 12,with a flat toned stomach. If my arse was in proportion I would have probably been a 10. Now I'm a 14-16 and want to be a 12 again.

TylerHopkins Sat 31-Aug-13 10:41:37

When I get to a size 12 I'll let you know.

LimitedEditionLady Sat 31-Aug-13 10:43:52

Im 5FT 7 and a size twelve bottoms weigh around 10st and my bmi is normal right in the middle of the bmi mijigger.Heavy?I dont care if people think i look "heavy' when i lost weight,i think about a stone, I looked ill and gaunt.

usuallyright Sat 31-Aug-13 10:53:13

OP, ignore.
There are people with very wrong, very body dysmorphic attitudes on mumsnet.

It was one of the very first things I noticed when I joined here. Unhealthy and fucked up.
A size 12/14 is perfectly fine and healthy on all but the tiniest minority of very petite people.

SlobAtHome Sat 31-Aug-13 11:25:12

I'm 5 foot 7 and a size 6-8, 12 would seem huge to me if it was on me. I wouldn't be happy with anything above a 10 tbvh. I think women start looking podgy after a size 10. 10 is a lovely size. Heavy is a strong word though.

12? Acceptable.

SlobAtHome Sat 31-Aug-13 11:27:17

Just checked and my BMI is in the normal category but the lower half of it.

I think I look healthy and toned.

DoctorRobert Sat 31-Aug-13 11:29:39

I'm 5' 3", small frame, and look pretty porky when I'm a size 12 tbh. It puts me at the very top end of normal BMI, edging into overweight.

I've recently lost 1.5 stone on the 5:2 diet and am now an 8-10 depending on the shop. This is a far healthier size for me.

AmberLeaf Sat 31-Aug-13 11:39:44

There are people with very wrong, very body dysmorphic attitudes on mumsnet

Absolutely.

"This is a terrible thread, not everyone can naturally be size 6/8/10 etc"

Or would want to be, i love my ass, hips and thighs, my idol growing up was Sofia Loren (i am in my 40's) and luckily i grew up surround by mainly black women, who didn't instill the hatred for their natural body frame (whatever their size) that seemed to be inflicted on my peers.

Soditall Sat 31-Aug-13 11:42:29

5 ft 6 and a size 12 I'd weigh less than 10 stone so I wouldn't call it heavy at all,but like others said he would depend on your height.

SlobAtHome Sat 31-Aug-13 11:46:25

It also depends on what the weight is made up of. I was 10 stone once but still slim and a size 8-10, it was more muscle weight than fat as I was trying (and succeeding) for a six pack at the time blush

Muscle is much much much heavy in volume than fat.

"This is a terrible thread, not everyone can naturally be size 6/8/10 etc"

And some of us just can't get our weight up much more than a 10. It's true.

Blueberryveryberry Sat 31-Aug-13 11:49:54

Depends how tall you are. My friend who is 6 ft tall is a size 12, she is slim. I am 5 ft 3 and I look ok at size 10, but look better at size 8 and a bit too slim at size 6.

SoupDragon Sat 31-Aug-13 11:53:45

There are people with very wrong, very body dysmorphic attitudes on mumsnet.

Including those who are unable to see what is unhealthily fat.

FrigginRexManningDay Sat 31-Aug-13 12:01:36

Birds unhealthy attitude to body weight isn't specific to any particular race colour or creed.

littleoaktree Sat 31-Aug-13 12:11:32

Agree with soupdragon.

IMO there are far far more people who are fat/overweight than suffer from anorexia etc.

I'm 5' 4", 8.6 stone and a size 8. When I was 9mths pg and 2 stone heavier I fitted fine in normal non maternity size 12s. If I hadn't been pregnant I would have been fat. A 10 would be fat/too heavy for me.

That's not to say that all size 12s are fat/too heavy but a significant number are and the majority would probably be healthier for losing a bit.

The problem is that we have lost our ability to see what is normal - it's the same with children - you should be able to see their ribs but with most children you can't. With adults you shouldn't have any podge etc and most people at a size 12 do have.

IMO the vast majority of body dysmorphia these days is an inability to see that most people you see around are fat/overweight.

AmberLeaf Sat 31-Aug-13 12:14:11

Friggin, no, but birds is correct in that fleshy bodies are not detested by black people in the way that they can be by many white people.

In fact, they are generally seen much more positively.

SlobAtHome Sat 31-Aug-13 12:18:27

"IMO the vast majority of body dysmorphia these days is an inability to see that most people you see around are fat/overweight."

This^

We have such EXTREME examples now that we think 'oh well I'm not like them' but that doesn't mean you're not overweight. People's problem with BMI show this attitude. The only thing that could genuinely affect a BMI is athletic muscle, because it's so heavy. Not even being 'big boned' can change BMI THAT much as bone is actually quite light anyway.

I am very big boned for a woman, I am very broad in shoulders and chest, but I'm still slim.

RegTheMonkey Sat 31-Aug-13 12:22:16

Sizing has changed so much. When I was in my 20s (in the late 1970s) I was a size 12 which measured 34-24-36.

FrigginRexManningDay Sat 31-Aug-13 12:26:23

Fleshy as in overweight AmberLeaf?

Being overweight is not better than being underweight,they are both unhealthy.

AintNobodyGotTimeFurThat Sat 31-Aug-13 12:26:54

I think most peoples versions of fat is ridiculous.

It's better to be slightly overweight than underweight.

At my heaviest I weighed an 18 at 5 1/2 which is majorly overweight.

I am a size 14 now, nearly a size 12 - I am around 10 and a half stone? This is the lightest I have been for a while.

I am still heavy but not AS heavy, iyswim. But I think it depends a lot on body build. I would be a size 12 easy, maybe even verging on 10 if it weren't for my thighs - they are very thick and fat.

Otherwise, I am happy with my body but the weight just doesn't shift on my thighs, for some reason.

DontmindifIdo Sat 31-Aug-13 12:34:07

From a short-arsed perspective, YABU - I'm 5' - I had DD 12 weeks ago and I'm a size 10, and I look fat. A 12 is definately too heavy for me. I'm aiming for a size 8, but even then, I won't have a flat stomach until I drop to closer to a 6. However, I have tall friends who'll look thin at a size 10 and a bit curvy but not fat at 12.

Agree with Littleoaktree on IMO the vast majority of body dysmorphia these days is an inability to see that most people you see around are fat/overweight.

AmberLeaf Sat 31-Aug-13 12:39:11

Fleshy as in overweight AmberLeaf?

No, fleshy, as in having a rounded bottom and curved thighs.

SlobAtHome Sat 31-Aug-13 12:48:28

Aintnobody but what you are doing is saying that you were extremely overweight and now you are (much!) better. That doesn't actually say anything (either way) about your size now or people perseptions. In fact I would say you are more proving a point. You compare yourself to your own heaviest size and not to a healthy weight.

FrigginRexManningDay Sat 31-Aug-13 12:53:53

Many white people detest round bums and thighs? Really? Where? I have never had any negativities or comments from a white person about my bum. I did from the idiot across the road who is not white but he is just an idiot and dick to most of the women around here.

AmberLeaf Sat 31-Aug-13 13:06:56

'Does my bum look big in this'

Peoples obsession with their behind is a well known issue, it is on the whole unfounded.

I have had many negative comments about my rotund bottom over the years, none of which came from black people [male or female]

I have also had positive comments about my body shape, which were in the main from black people.

There is a different outlook about body shape among black people, much less self hating, which is what I assume Birdsgottafly was refering to.

Depends on hight and build I think I've got slim arms as legs and little more round the middle that's I'd like but at the same time lost ALOT of weight in the last year. I am 5ft 9 and I weigh 12 stone 5 1/2 and am a size 14 my doctor thinks I'm healthy enough and sees no reason why I need to loose any more weight but I will carry on till I'm 11 stone as that's the weight I want to be. I have become a little obsessed as Although I was 17 stone before when I look in the mirror I don't see the difference and I don't see what others see everyone is different I think if I was a 10 I may look too thin and unhealthy looking

Pobblewhohasnotoes Sat 31-Aug-13 13:14:36

I'm 5ft 2 and was a size 12 post baby and wasn't happy with it. I felt heavy. Now I'm a 8-10 and happier. I think height has a lot to do with it. You can't just generalise about a size.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 31-Aug-13 13:15:13

Sorry as somebody has said already the only body dysmorphia going on is the inability to see when one is over weight.

In the last week or so there was an article in a trashy magazine about the "anorexia epidemic" in the UK. I laughed. There is no such thing. There is an obesity epidemic. To the extent that being larger is more normal than being slim.

Pobblewhohasnotoes Sat 31-Aug-13 13:21:16

And dont forget confusing curvy with being overweight....

There's this whole thing about embracing our curves. Which is fine, but there's a difference between curvy and fat.

RussiansOnTheSpree Sat 31-Aug-13 13:23:39

I'm 5'2" and a 6-8. I'm not thin. If I was a 12 I'd be huge.

SlobAtHome Sat 31-Aug-13 13:27:01

Exactly Pobble. I am a 6-8 and I have curves. My hips/thighs come out and if I were over weight would be huge. That is naturally my shape. I'm curvy but slim with it.

FrigginRexManningDay Sat 31-Aug-13 13:30:30

That's your experience. My sil is black and she gets positive comments about her body from everyone. She's an hourglass big bum and curvy thighs. I'd hazard a guess that she's a size 10-12. Her sister is more straight up and down and I'd guess a size 8-10 and is always moaning about her figure.

FrigginRexManningDay Sat 31-Aug-13 13:34:42

Pobble Sil is definitely curvy not overweight. You could crack an egg on her stomach she's so toned,she's very into fitness. I wish I had her motivation. I'm overweight,I know I am.

WorraLiberty Sat 31-Aug-13 13:36:21

This 20 year study makes sad but interesting reading

I think threads like this provoke two different kind of responses - those who respond regarding other people's attitudes to overweight/obese people...and those who respond from a health perspective.

Yes I think overweight people are generally considered more sexy by many black people. That's good for the people concerned. But they're often still risking their health.

Many people wouldn't dream of taking up smoking because they don't want to shorten their lives, and they want to see their kids and grand children grow up. Yet so many people are OK with being overweight, even though it's often a slippery slope into gaining more and more as we get older.

So if you're fat at a size 12 then you're fat at a size 12.

If you're not then you're not.

But admitting you are and doing something about it, does not mean you have some sort of eating disorder or that you're body dysmorphic (SP).

usuallyright Sat 31-Aug-13 13:38:25

Some shocking, worrying posts here.
A size 6 and 'not slim?'
Seriously?
There's a word for that.
Anorexia.
It's healthier to carry some extra weight than be underweight.
Size 6 is underweight by anyone's standards. Unless you're a child.
Hiding this godawful thread now.

AmberLeaf Sat 31-Aug-13 13:38:42

Yep, it is.

Half my family are black, as are many of my friends, so my observations are based on more than just my own experience.

There are cultural factors. skinny tends not to be the desired option.

Her sister is more straight up and down and I'd guess a size 8-10 and is always moaning about her figure

In what way?

usuallyright Sat 31-Aug-13 13:39:39

this conversation would never happen between men.
Shame on you all.
Shame.

WorraLiberty Sat 31-Aug-13 13:41:49

Oh for goodness sake usuallyright, if you don't want to take part in it then don't.

Pobblewhohasnotoes Sat 31-Aug-13 13:41:57

Size 6 is underweight by anyone's standards. Unless you're a child

Um, no it isn't. Some people are naturally a size six. There's a big difference between starving yourself to be a six and just being that way.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 31-Aug-13 13:42:31

Usual

I know plenty of men who are health conscious, weight aware and who talk about it together actually.

AmberLeaf Sat 31-Aug-13 13:42:44

Yes I think overweight people are generally considered more sexy by many black people. That's good for the people concerned. But they're often still risking their health

I'm not talking about overweight people.

I think there is a lot of use of the term 'curvy' when they are also overweight but curvy doesn't always mean overweight.

SlobAtHome Sat 31-Aug-13 13:43:20

Size 6 on a short person is not underweight usually, that's common sense sorry... If your whole body is small then why on earth would you have the same waist size as a person a foot taller than you?

Shame on you for lack of basic common sense hmm

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 31-Aug-13 13:45:05

usuallyright but not this time. Are you being serious? A very petite size 6 woman is not underweight anymore than a 6ft size 16 woman is overweight.

happybubblebrain Sat 31-Aug-13 13:45:25

I'm size 12 and just came back from a holiday where nearly everyone on the beach was a size 4 or 6 with fake boobs. I was about the fattest there. In this country I feel slim enough. I'd rather be able to eat proper meals and not worry about putting on weight than constantly watching every mouthful. I did that when I was younger and now I can't see the point at all. All that effort just to look slimmer and 'better'. Looking better doesn't benefit me in any way.

Ahlaam Sat 31-Aug-13 13:47:08

It really depends on the person's height. Being 5ft3' I know I would look big because of my body structure.

WorraLiberty Sat 31-Aug-13 13:47:40

There are cultural factors. skinny tends not to be the desired option.

Everyone, no matter what colour they are will have their own preference.

The most important thing imo is not whether someone is desired by the opposite sex, but whether they're healthy...and whether they can maintain a healthy weight as they get older/have children.

I know very few slim people whose weight ballooned after giving birth...but I know tons of overweight people who have battled terribly to lose the often very large weight gain after having a baby.

Pregnancy and middle/old age often fucks with metabolism so imo it's best to keep weight down in your younger years, if possible. So that gaining weight later, might not be such a problem.

usuallyright Sat 31-Aug-13 13:47:51

Fucking unbelievably ignorant, silly, ridiculous, unsubstantiated load of hairy bollocks.
Tons of research to back up the FACT that its healthier to be a bit overweight than underweight.
Every size 6 I know looks gaunt and cheek sunken.
Ask ANY man what they prefer, size 6 or size 12?
Over 90% would prefer curves and shape.

SlobAtHome Sat 31-Aug-13 13:48:03

Also usually I am a size 6-8 because I must burn food quickly. I eat a normal bowl of cereal, a chocolate bar for coffee break blush, some kind of hot sandwich (BLT) and chocolate treat type thing for lunch, a full plate of dinner, and at least a bag of crisps and some sweets in the evening. Isn't that normal?

If I haven't eaten by 11 I feel tired and headachey and if I haven't eaten by lunch I tremble violently and feel weak (by that point i would have tp shovel whatever food is closest into my face to pile calories in). That's just my body. Always has been.

Hardly anorexic?

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 31-Aug-13 13:50:35

usually

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Being a size 6 does not automatically make a woman underweight!

Has this thread touched a nerve or something because you're being a bit hysterical.

usuallyright Sat 31-Aug-13 13:51:17

is this thread sponsored by the daily mail or something? All the comments on this thread have been on comments underneath some 'look, Kelly Brook is a chubster' photo on the daily mail website. Mysogynistic, dysmorphic, dangerous, nonsense.

SlobAtHome Sat 31-Aug-13 13:51:58

Think what you want usually but I at 6-8 get A LOT more male attention than my size 12 sister... and have had some fair amount of comments on my figure from men. I have toned legs, a nice toned round arse, a flat stomach... you don't think men find that appealing? You're deluding yourself.

FrigginRexManningDay Sat 31-Aug-13 13:52:38

She moans about her small breasts and her skinny legs mostly.
I know a lot of people from all walks of life. I know a of a few families where they are all overweight but because they tell each other they look great they tend not to see it. My nephew who is quite blunt (possible ASD,awaiting DX) asked one family why they were so fat and they got all uppity about it.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 31-Aug-13 13:52:50

Yes love. We're all so healthy and in touch with how big we really are now - that's why our clothes are vanity sized and significantly larger than they were 20 years ago.

Yeah, it's dysmorphic to notice that and be aware of it biscuit

AmberLeaf Sat 31-Aug-13 13:53:03

I understand the health issues with weight, both for being overweight and underweight.

Im talking more about the way people see themselves [and to an extent body dysmorphia], which is I think what the OP was talking about?

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 31-Aug-13 13:53:48

The majority of men I've ever known never mind dated have preferred slimmer women actually usually. How offensive are you to suggest that slim women are not attractive!

FrigginRexManningDay Sat 31-Aug-13 13:54:22

Men are not attracted to one particular shape or size.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 31-Aug-13 13:54:32

Sorry Amber blush that was meant for usually not you! I agree with what you're saying.

WorraLiberty Sat 31-Aug-13 13:55:01

Every size 6 I know looks gaunt and cheek sunken. - Then you should see my friend's beautiful petite DD. She's very healthy and a natural size 6.

Ask ANY man what they prefer, size 6 or size 12? - Sorry but why do you care what men think? Do you maintain your weight with men in mind?

Over 90% would prefer curves and shape - So you've done a survey have you?

AmberLeaf Sat 31-Aug-13 13:56:06

I have toned legs, a nice toned round arse, a flat stomach... you don't think men find that appealing?

Some do, some don't.

She moans about her small breasts and her skinny legs mostly

I though it would be something like that, which backs up what Ive said about 'skinny' not being the desired option generally among black people.

Worra by desired, I didn't mean desired by men but desired by the individual.

FoundAChopinLizt Sat 31-Aug-13 13:56:19

UsuallyRight

Personally, the preferences of random men would not determine my body shape. I am aiming to be as fit as possible, so that I feel energetic and happy, and to lower my risks of diseases linked with overweight such as type 2 diabetes, osteoarthritis, cerebrovascular/cardiovascular disease, cancers, back pain...

I'm size 10 at 5'9 and weigh about 9'3, I would not run as well at size 12, as I would be carrying an extra stone at least.

usuallyright Sat 31-Aug-13 13:56:29

this thread is the reason Internet forums can be dangerous, in the wrong hands.
I'm slim. Not emaciated. No axe to grind.

forevergreek Sat 31-Aug-13 13:57:28

I'm size 6, but only 5'4. If I was taller I'm sure il be a larger size
I eat lots and burn lots. Yesterday:
Breakfast: Granola, blueberries, seeds. And almond milk and banana milkshake
Lunch: roast veg and tomatoe sauce gnocchi.
Snack: birthday cake
Dinner: chicken/ daulphenoise potatoes/ veg
Snack: sorbet and chocolate

I also walked around 6 miles throughout day and ran 4 miles before dinner.

I'm sorry but I would be huge at size 12. However my friend at 6'2 looks great at size 12

Size 12 for the average person is usually overweight

usuallyright Sat 31-Aug-13 13:57:55

no Worra, I haven't done a survey.
But plenty of other people have.
Google is your friend.
Go and have a look if you think I'm making it up.

AmberLeaf Sat 31-Aug-13 13:58:41

Alisvolatpropiis It's ok, the thread is moving fast! smile

WorraLiberty Sat 31-Aug-13 13:59:53

this thread is the reason Internet forums can be dangerous, in the wrong hands.

Yes usuallyright and if you're worried about that, I'd stop blindly insulting people who are a size 6.

You're the one who should be ashamed.

Or are you one of these people who ignorantly assume that anyone who is size 6, starves themselves?

usuallyright Sat 31-Aug-13 14:02:13

Stop all the untrue, made up rubbish and read some facts.
Start here:
www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/can-you-be-fit-and-obese-1851897.html

FrigginRexManningDay Sat 31-Aug-13 14:05:15

Eh maybe you don't understand Sil is skinny and curvy. The opposite of skinny is fat,not curvy.

usuallyright Sat 31-Aug-13 14:05:40

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/now-doctors-say-its-ugoodu-to-be-fat-399428.html

forevergreek Sat 31-Aug-13 14:05:42

All clothes are getting bigger also. A size 8 tshirt from gap from 10 year ago fits perfect. New ones are size 6 as size 8 now too big. This is the same tshirt.

My eldest is almost 4. If I buy 4 year old trousers to fit him in leg they just fall down! He is 50 % centile weight so surely bang in the middle of average? Why are they made so large? If I buy him French clothing brands in age 4 thy fit perfectly

usuallyright Sat 31-Aug-13 14:05:58
Bunbaker Sat 31-Aug-13 14:06:47

I think it depends on bodyshape as well. I am 5'7" and wear a size 12 jeans because I have wide hip bones. My waist is a 2013 size 10 and I have a skinny upper frame an no boobs so I look skinny. My BMI is 20, my waist to hip ratio is 0.69 and my waist is 42% of my height. Oh, and I weigh 9.5 stone.

So, saying a size 12 is fat is a rather pointless and destructive thing to say.

AmberLeaf Sat 31-Aug-13 14:06:54

These threads are always a mixture of sensible science backed reason and personal opinion/prejudice/dysmorphic attitude...and everything else inbetween.

You can tell it's the end of the summer holidays.

usuallyright Sat 31-Aug-13 14:09:03

amber, this thread has cropped up several times in the past year and is always 90% commentary from posters who think anything above size 8 is chubby and unhealthy.
Just a depressing observation of mine.

AmberLeaf Sat 31-Aug-13 14:10:17

Eh maybe you don't understand Sil is skinny and curvy

I thought you said she was straight up and down?

That isn't curvy.

FrigginRexManningDay Sat 31-Aug-13 14:10:54

Sils sister I said. Not sil.

AmberLeaf Sat 31-Aug-13 14:11:36

Yes usuallyright, Ive seen many threads like this and I agree.

Some sensible stuff of varying opinions, but lots of not so sensible too, oh and a whole lot of offence being taken.

FrigginRexManningDay Sat 31-Aug-13 14:11:47

As in my brothers wife's sister. Not his wife.

AmberLeaf Sat 31-Aug-13 14:12:55

Friggin, but I wasn't talking about your sil? confused

Weren't we talking about her skinny sister who was unhappy with her lack of curves?

FrigginRexManningDay Sat 31-Aug-13 14:14:15

Ah which means you read my post all wrong.
SIL is skinny and curvy,gets lots of positivity.
Sil sister is straight up and down.

WorraLiberty Sat 31-Aug-13 14:14:37

this thread has cropped up several times in the past year and is always 90% commentary from posters who think anything above size 8 is chubby and unhealthy.

That's absolute crap and I think you know it.

The general consensus on threads like this is usually that it depends on height and frame.

If you actually read this thread, you'll see it's no different.

What doesn't help is the hysteria and over exaggeration when people are trying to have a sensible discussion.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 31-Aug-13 14:15:13

I how one carries weight is dependant on height and build. That's why bmi calculators aren't that great in the main, they don't take into account build.

A friend of mine is exactly the same size as me but our builds are dramatically different, you wouldn't think we wore the same clothes size. She's an athletic build whereas I'm more hourglass, she looks slimmer than me.

I imagine it's the same for lots of people.

FrigginRexManningDay Sat 31-Aug-13 14:15:50

I talked about both,sil gets positive from lots of people male and female not just black people.

AmberLeaf Sat 31-Aug-13 14:16:20

If you are skinny, you are not curvy.

I reading them right, Im just disagreeing with that point/definition there.

To me skinny is no discernable bum or curves, I would prob describe your sil as lean and curvy. but not skinny.

Thumbwitch Sat 31-Aug-13 14:16:26

I'm an M&S size 12 (fuck knows how!) and I am overweight. I am 5'6" (just about) and have a BMI of 27.6, plus a really bad waist to hip ratio (0.95). I am not just heavy, I am fat around the middle - and yet somehow still fit into M&S size 12. hmm

AmberLeaf Sat 31-Aug-13 14:17:55

What doesn't help is the hysteria and over exaggeration when people are trying to have a sensible discussion

I think its fair to say, that that comes from both sides of this debate.

usuallyright Sat 31-Aug-13 14:20:38

Worra, you've been reading different threads to the ones I've read then!
The last time I opened one of these messed up threads implying size 12 is heavy/large/chubby/fat/overweight/choose your word
I vowed that I'd steer clear of body dysmorphia threads in future because they paint a deeply worrying, unhealthy (psychologically, if mental health is as important as your hips jutting out in a bikini) image of womankind.

WorraLiberty Sat 31-Aug-13 14:20:45

Yes it's definitely fair to say that Amber

It's just so bloody annoying.

ChubbyKitty Sat 31-Aug-13 14:22:23

I'm 5'3 and a size 12. I do a physically demanding job and only weigh 9/10 stone (depends on the day)

My size comes from boobs, bum, and massive child bearing hips. These things are from my mums side of the family. Not really my fault and I don't really see it as a problem.

I don't feel fat, I don't really look fat, unless all you have is the numbers (which granted, that's all you do have on a forum) and I feel healthier than I ever did before.

FrigginRexManningDay Sat 31-Aug-13 14:22:35

Skinny to me is someone who is not fat. Sil is not fat. My mum is curvy and fat. I'm curvy and fat.

SlobAtHome Sat 31-Aug-13 14:23:07

BMI - "they don't take into account build"

Yes they do. The have a 5 point range in the healthy weight section. Build cannot vary to that extent. Like I said earlier in the thread, I am broad, very broad for a woman in fact. I have a wide rib cage and HUGE larger shoulders.. It doesn't make that much difference to my overall weight. How much fat is on my stomach is what makes the biggest difference.

RussiansOnTheSpree Sat 31-Aug-13 14:23:35

Usually I'm not underweight. I'm short and slight. My feet are size 3. I'm just wee. And I am curvey - that's why I'm 6-8 not 6. My bottom half is 6 but I've got 28 DD tits. So I usually wear size 8 tops.

You are very rude.

SlobAtHome Sat 31-Aug-13 14:24:16

Bone doesn't weight that much. Why don't people take this into account when trying to argue about BMI accuracy?

WorraLiberty Sat 31-Aug-13 14:26:04

*The last time I opened one of these messed up threads implying size 12 is heavy/large/chubby/fat/overweight/choose your word
I vowed that I'd steer clear of body dysmorphia threads in future because they paint a deeply worrying, unhealthy (psychologically, if mental health is as important as your hips jutting out in a bikini) image of womankind.*

See this ^^ is a classic example of what I'm talking about.

Size 12 is very likely to mean that a 5ft person actually is (or at least can be) heavy/large/chubby/fat/overweight.

But some people are too blind/hysterical to accept that.

Despite being told it over and over again by shorter/smaller framed people.

To write them off as body dysmorphic is ignorant and rude.

If you calm down and actually read and understand what many shorter people are telling you, then you're more likely to learn from threads like this.

It seems some people wouldn't bat an eye if they were told I know someone who is a size 16 and she's not fat.

But if I said I know someone who is a size 6 and she's not skinny, the hysteria often starts and no-one learns anything.

usuallyright Sat 31-Aug-13 14:26:24

Please read my posts properly Russian.
I said most people, not all.
And obviously, as I said before, children and very petite people are the exception.
Why don't/can't people read posts properly?

AmberLeaf Sat 31-Aug-13 14:26:41

Skinny to me is someone who is not fat

Really? you see it that black and white with nothing inbetween?

See, I don't see 'skinny' as a positive term any more than fat is, neither are IMO ideal.

Worra yes, it is annoying, but its indicative of how deeply entrenched body image is on our psyche.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 31-Aug-13 14:28:42

slob

The ones I've seen on the Internet, which is what people tend to use as a quick point of reference, don't. I'm sure proper ones checked by a doctor are different. I should I have been more clear in what I was saying.

WorraLiberty Sat 31-Aug-13 14:30:07

I think the fatter we get as a society, the more slim people will be looked upon as skinny/unhealthy.

FoundAChopinLizt Sat 31-Aug-13 14:30:14

I think skinny is the equivalent of fatty, slim is a less pejorative.

FrigginRexManningDay Sat 31-Aug-13 14:30:47

Thats your opinion. To me there's fat,skinny/slim and thin.
Apologies Russian for using you as an example,I would describe you as skinny and curvy. I would describe myself as fat and curvy.

NuggetofPurestGreen Sat 31-Aug-13 14:40:05

Usually there's a difference between 'shape and curves' and being fat you know. And who cares what men think anyway?!

To answer the original OP I am a size 12 and in the 'healthy' BMI range (23) but I am still a bit fat. Not because I have body dysmorphia or I think I should look like the women in magazines but because I have a fat belly and look very flabby. My waist measures 35 inches which is well over the 'safe' size for women but I am not technically overweight because I am only 10 stone. But I have a skinny arse and legs which just makes my fat belly even fatter looking. So yes, a size 12 can be heavy even if you're not short (I'm 5 foot 5.5).

AmberLeaf Sat 31-Aug-13 14:43:14

Thats your opinion. To me there's fat,skinny/slim and thin

No it isn't just my opinion.

fat, slim and skinny/thin would be more accurate.

somersethouse Sat 31-Aug-13 14:48:00

sorry have not read the thread. To me size twelve is 'heavy', for sure.

usuallyright Sat 31-Aug-13 14:50:10

Somerset, you need to read the thread.

nugget how can you have a 35" waist and be a size 12? I thought a size 12 was around a 28-30" waist.

Thumbwitch Sat 31-Aug-13 14:55:00

Depends where you get the size 12 item from, Jemima.

NuggetofPurestGreen Sat 31-Aug-13 15:09:56

Jemima I guess it's because my belly is all flab so it just squashes into the size 12 if you get me - I do have terrible muffin top then though. Not in skirts though but they tend to sit above my waist which is smaller - ie kind of half way between my waist and my boobs. I couldn't wear a bigger size as it would be hanging off my bum and legs - even the size 12s are too baggy but I need them in 12 to close on the belly.

It's crap - I know I'm not particularly large but it's very hard to get clothes that look okay. Used to be about 9 stone 4 and made a big difference.

NuggetofPurestGreen Sat 31-Aug-13 15:11:25

Still had a 32 inch waist but could fit in a 10.

SlobAtHome Sat 31-Aug-13 15:16:23

Alisvolatpropiis

They all do in that they say a normal range is between 18.5 and 24(iirc)

This is a large range and allows for peoples differences in 'build'. Still the fact is that bone weighs little overall so if you are an underweight or overweight category it probably has little to do with bone or build.

Muscle is the only thing that could properly throw a BMI as it ways so much. You'd need to be an athlete for it to be a problem.

SlobAtHome Sat 31-Aug-13 15:18:01

**weighs blush not ways

SlobAtHome Sat 31-Aug-13 15:19:37

'Skinny' is as hurtful as being called fat. It implies underweight. Slim is the middle ground.

ILikeBirds Sat 31-Aug-13 15:21:06

The photo on my profile is me with a BMI of just over 25, I am not an athlete. I consider myself to be 'normal' rather than slim or skinny but not overweight.

Interesting. I now want to know where I'm going wrong with my 29" waist, I'm a size 10 in shops with more generous sizing (yes M&S and Next I am looking at you) but a size 12 in others hmm

NuggetofPurestGreen Sat 31-Aug-13 15:26:56

Slob but for me BMI says I'm fine (23) but I'm really not - have a 35" waist! - so the fact that I have a big belly throws my BMI if you know what mean. However some of the guidance does say if you have a small frame (which i do) you should have a bmi at the lower end of the scale so I suppose it does work for me in that regard as when k has a bmi of 21 I was fine.

Thumbwitch Sat 31-Aug-13 15:27:10

Do you have hips, Jemima? I don't, you see, which is probably why the size 12 still fits me. But if you have wider hips then it might affect the overall fit of the clothing.

NuggetofPurestGreen Sat 31-Aug-13 15:30:26

That sounds right though Jemima doesn't it? A size 12 should be 30" so makes sense that at 29" you would fit in 12s in shops that are using the right measurement? And a 10 in a generous sizing shop. I'm a 12 in next and m&s but they are big on me - need an 11 really! And I'm betting you don't have rolls of flab hanging over the top sad

SlobAtHome Sat 31-Aug-13 15:31:52

I'd be curious to see a relaxed (slobbed on couch) sitting down side photo Birds, taken by someone else. Those front self taken arms up photos don't give a good impression. You obviously have a bit of fat from that front photo alone but it's not a good way of showing genuine weight/size. I would be ok with your weight as it's shown (in that I wouldn't be really upset) but getting my arse to the gym sharpish if I'm being honest. I do like to be nice and toned though. Anyway with a BMI of 25 you are normal.

AmberLeaf Sat 31-Aug-13 15:34:45

/\ wow.

Birds, you look lovely, not unhealthy at all.

AmberLeaf Sat 31-Aug-13 15:35:27

...and that bra is really nice, where is it from?

usuallyright Sat 31-Aug-13 15:36:26

getting to the gym sharpish???
Purlease.
Birds, you have a smoking hot, gorgeous figure and anyone who can't see that is just very very odd indeed.

SlobAtHome Sat 31-Aug-13 15:36:46

OH my days that reads really mean shock

Birds you are not fat but you have a bit of fat is what I meant (normal)

You have a nice shape in general and do not look overweight. I only meant that I like to look toned and work on muscles, but that is just me and not something I expect of others.

God I'm really sorry if that sounded mean sad

LimitedEditionLady Sat 31-Aug-13 15:40:34

Pretty daft this thread,im not going to comment anymore than to say i used to think i had to be a size 8 to be judged as good looking and now ive learnt that being a size 8 or being a higher number on a clothes label is irrelevant.Are you healthy?Are you happy?Do YOU like how you look?Well if you can say yes,youve got it made.

ILikeBirds Sat 31-Aug-13 15:41:20

It's a Panache bra, Melody I think.

I know I could lose a little weight healthily but it's not high on my agenda. My body works for me. The photo was to illustrate two things really

1) You can be in the overweight BMI category without being overweight (imo) and without being an athlete.

2) I'm a size 10 most of the time, I'd have to put on a stone to be a 12 which is back to the original question - size 12 can be heavy. I would be 12 stone at size 12. At 5 foot 4 that is heavy.

FrigginRexManningDay Sat 31-Aug-13 15:42:51

I just did my measurements I'm 41-33-38 (boobs,waist,hips). That's I'm wearing a size 12. I don't doubt its a vanity size 12.

dolcelatte Sat 31-Aug-13 15:45:35

I think I have been on MN for too long, but it is always the threads about weight and money which attract the most comments most quickly! Is size 12 big, average or slim? Is £100k a lot, average or too little? I suspect most people are in the middle (or round the middle!) in both categories, and if it's really fine for them then it's probably fine!

theoriginalandbestrookie Sat 31-Aug-13 15:59:59

I think our perception of normal has been manipulated so much by the media that we can no longer make an unbiased assessment.

In real life people are getting fatter, whereas in the media women are getting ridiculously smaller and that's made even more pronounced by the use of photoshop on already slender models and actresses.

I can't quote it here, but there is a much larger gap in BMI between an average female and say a model than there was in the 60s/70s.

The net result is that a lot of us feel insecure about our bodies. I find it ridiculous from my 12-14 perspective, ok who am I kidding, more 14 than 12, that my gorgeous toned size 8-10 friend says she no longer wears bikinis because of her saggy flesh. Then of course if she is too fat and old for bikinis then what should I be wearing - a burkha ?

A lot of our size also depends on our bones. My mother weighs next to nothing, always has, but used to have to get skirts/trousers in size 14 because of her hip bones. I have inherited those hip bones, but a bigger frame. At my very lowest weight I fitted size 12 ( this is 20 years ago size 12) through smoking 40 and eating half a filled baguette per day.

Pinupgirl Sat 31-Aug-13 16:05:30

Bmi is a load of old bollocks. Fact. Stop obsessing about your weight and start getting a life is my advice to a lot of posters on this thread.

hardboiledpossum Sat 31-Aug-13 16:14:16

I'm only on page 6 but two people have said that a size 6 is underweight. I am a size 6, 5' 3 and have a healthy bmi of 19. I am medically in the healthy weight band for my height and weight.

WorraLiberty Sat 31-Aug-13 16:18:45

I think our perception of normal has been manipulated so much by the media that we can no longer make an unbiased assessment.

I think it's being skewed more by what we see around us.

The average women's dress size in the UK is size 16, yet the average height is 5ft 4".

If someone considers themself overweight at a size 12, the chances are a lot of people won't agree because they're comparing that person to so many larger people around them.

Equally, a lot of perfectly fit and healthy size 6/8/10 will be looked upon by some as 'skinny'...again due to the fact the nation is getting much fatter.

Pinupgirl Sat 31-Aug-13 16:20:27

Bmi is a made up load of shit!-but yes you can be petite and be a size 6 and look fine. My friend was a 6 but she is tiny-4,11-and she looked quite skinny. She has now put on a wee bit of weight and is a size 8 and looks amazing-still very slim but with a great bum and boobs now!

theoriginalandbestrookie Sat 31-Aug-13 16:25:29

I'm not so sure that BMI is a made up load of sh*t. It's not meant to be an indicator of physical attractiveness I thought it was more a measure of what is a healthy appropriate weight for each height.

I'm right at the top for my height with a BMI of 25 ( perhaps a smidgen more) and I wouldn't want to be any bigger. Sadly yes because of vanity reasons but also because diabetes runs in our family and I'd rather not have that when I'm older thank you very much.

theoriginalandbestrookie Sat 31-Aug-13 16:28:03

Worra - you're right of course, what we see around us is getting bigger, and try going to Florida, I felt like a sylph like model over there.

However I think it's that plus the diconnect between what we see on screen and magazines that results in even slim women being unhappy with what they see.

Oh and when I see size 6/8/10s I don't look down on them, I feel envious. I'd love to be super slim, it's never going to happen.

Thumbwitch Sat 31-Aug-13 16:28:46

BMI is a very blunt instrument - waist to hip ratio is a far better indicator of what is healthy.

WorraLiberty Sat 31-Aug-13 16:51:53

I agree rookie, I don't think it's any one thing...but a few factors that come into play.

Also regarding BMI, I think the best tool we have is our eyes and our honesty.

When my DS2 was measured in yr 6, he had a healthy BMI.

But we could see he had a fat belly. He was the least energetic of my 3 DC as he'd nearly always opt to read a book/play his violin/play Xbox...rather than running around.

We could have breathed a sigh of relief at the letter and watched his belly continue to grow...but we chose to get him out swimming/running around/bike riding etc.

Now he's 14yrs old and slim as a pin.

NuggetofPurestGreen Sat 31-Aug-13 16:51:59

Exactly Thumb. My bmi is fine my WHR is .92 shock. I definitely need to lose some weight at size 12.

SparkyTGD Sat 31-Aug-13 17:03:56

But Nugget surely if you have major muffin top with size 12 jeans then you're not size 12? confused

Thumbwitch Sat 31-Aug-13 17:08:48

Sparky - if you carry your weight above your waist, and the jeans are low to mid rise, then it's quite possible to still need a size 12 pair of jeans (or 13 in my case) and have a muffin top, and still be overweight and have a horrible waist to hip ratio, as both I and nugget do (mine's worse but that's definitely nothing to be proud of!)

SparkyTGD Sat 31-Aug-13 17:11:00

This site gives an idea of what size you are according to measurements.

Friggin your measurements make you a 14/16 according to that site.

tanfastic Sat 31-Aug-13 17:13:51

I'm a size 12, 5 foot 5 and have a bmi of 23.5. It's about right for me. I'd be terribly pissed off if anyone described me as heavy! angry

NuggetofPurestGreen Sat 31-Aug-13 17:20:54

I suppose I am not a size 12 waist Sparky but I couldn't wear a bigger size they would be hanging off the rest of my body. And the size 12 closes it just looks a bit rubbish. And size 12 tops skirts and dresses fit fine. I need tailored trousers!

Thumbwitch Sat 31-Aug-13 17:24:03

You sound as though you are a similar shape to me, Nugget. I couldn't wear bigger waisted trousers/jeans either, I need a belt as it is on my size 13s or they'd be falling down! No hips will do that for you.

5madthings Sat 31-Aug-13 17:25:31

How do you work put your hip to waist ratio and what is healthy for that?

I have wide 'childbearing hips' good job given the size of my babies. But my waist is 29inches, big boobs, 32e/f and an 5 2. I can fit in size 10/12 skinny jeans but could do with loosing 7-10lb and will once kids are back to school and I start running again. My bmi is 25, I can get it down to 24 but I am never going to be skinny/slim. Its not my build/frame, I have a very hourglass figure and am happy at 9stone up to 9 stone 5. For my height that is the top end of a healthy weight but I don't look right when I get under 9stone, my boobs stay big and I just look odd. Size 3/4 feet.

I swim/run and when I exercise can be reasonably toned, I would have to bust a gut to get properly slim and toned and tbh I would rather just be healthy but still eat chocolate etc. I can run 8-10km three times a week, go and swim 80 lengths in an hour and walk everywhere so I am reasonably healthy even at half a stone overweight.

It depends on build, where you carry weight etc.

My ds1 was healthy weight but had a podgey tummy also in yr 6 and we kept an eye on portion size, encouraged exercise etc and he shot up and slimmed down. He is just 14, I bought him 15-16 trousers for school this week and they are hanging off him so need adjusting. Ditto trousers for the other boys always need adjustable waists as they are slim.

My mil and others have said they are too skinny, but they are not. They are healthy for children, you can see collar and rib bones, no fat/flesh to pinch and the paed (we saw when ds3 was in hospital recently) said they are healthy and that children are meant to be slim.

Obviously as teens/adults body shape changes but I do think as a society people have a scewed perception of what is a healthy size, esp for children.

NuggetofPurestGreen Sat 31-Aug-13 17:26:57

I'm the same as you tanfastic and I'm certainly not heavy but I do have a giant belly and unhealthy waist hip ratio which is the problem.

Thumbwitch Sat 31-Aug-13 17:27:23

Just checked BMI and its 22.5.
I am 5'6 and a half, 10 stone,
34 bust
30 waist
36 hips.

Size 12 bottoms - size 10/12 tops.
I am carrying fat round my tummy - the most dangerous place.
Hence I'm doing High Intensity Interval Training and weights and cardio (aka Jillian Michaels DVDs) to get my waist down to under 30 - preferably 28, so I will be a real
12 in old measurements - this is the right size for my build.
I should measure 34-28-36 and before had a 36 inch waist because of abdominal fat. This made me 14/16 and unhealthy and pregnant looking.

SorrelForbes Sat 31-Aug-13 17:30:40

My hip to waist ratio is .7. But according to many posts on here I'm overweight? I don't feel overweight tbh. I can see some of my ribs and my hip bone. But, my hip measurement and my bra size (30GG) dictate to a large extent, what size clothes I need.

5madthings Sat 31-Aug-13 17:31:47

OK 29 inch waist, 39inch hips and that comes out as 0.74 which is OK? Interesting tool as I do need to lose 7-10lb at the moment.

NuggetofPurestGreen Sat 31-Aug-13 17:32:28

Yes Thumb I could actually do with a size 10 for my legs and hips but they wouldn't close on my waist. I have no hips. 38". My size 12 jeans are always down
round my bum - like a teenage boy! grin. Am trying to get back to a size 10 cos at least then am around the same size all over!

CooEeeEldridge Sat 31-Aug-13 17:33:53

YABU I'm 5'7" and being a size 12 definitely means I'm overweight and look 'heavy'. All dependant on frame and shape I guess.

NuggetofPurestGreen Sat 31-Aug-13 17:35:05

Who said you were overweight Sorrel? People might be saying that they feel overweight at a size 12 perhaps due to height etc but I don't think anyone is saying all size 12s are overweight. Obviously they aren't.

DiaryOfAWimpyMum Sat 31-Aug-13 17:35:08

I'm 5'8 and size 12 but my top half is a 14 so I feel a bit heavy

Thumbwitch Sat 31-Aug-13 17:37:18

Waist to hip ratio (WHR) is the best indicator of health in terms of weight-related diseases - abdominal fat and being appleshaped is a distinct disadvantage; being pear shaped and carrying more weight on your hips/thighs but still having a relatively small waist will be less dangerous overall to your health, although it might not be as "attractive" as you'd like (depending on how you feel/what pressures you're under).

I think to some extent that if you look ok, feel ok, and have a good WHR then it doesn't really matter what other people think about it - you should only consider losing weight if YOU think that you're overweight, although doing more exercise is always a good thing smile

5madthings Sat 31-Aug-13 17:37:36

Ooh there is a body fat calculator as well, interesting, I have 26% fat that sounds fucking loads but is an OK amount apparently.

SorrelForbes Sat 31-Aug-13 17:37:44

Probably being over sensitive blush. I am an extreme hourglass shape with a tall, willowy size 8 sister! Having said that, she'd like some of my chest!

SorrelForbes Sat 31-Aug-13 17:39:53

I do a lot of exercise too (run twice a week, average about four gym classes plus at least two hours of dancing) and I never change shape or lose weight. The only time I've ever been a true size 8/10 was when I lived on 600 calories a day for about four months when I was 21. Not going to happen again!

5madthings Sat 31-Aug-13 17:42:29

Well my 7lb is def around my tummy, I can pinch too much! My bmi is actually 25.5 at no and if I lose the 10lb I want to I will have a bmi of 23.7

I don't look slim but not big either, just normal I guess is a mum who has had kids, bit if a wobbly tummy but OK in clothes! Large norms, reasonable bum and thighs. I have friends who are bigger and smaller etc but we all seem to carry weight differently. I think my hourglass shapes means I can weigh more but still look OK, it really depends how you carry weight.

NuggetofPurestGreen Sat 31-Aug-13 17:43:17

Exactly Sorrel we all want what we don't have. Loads of people wants big boobs but I'd gladly swap mine for a nice pert pair! smile. Hourglass figure sounds lovely!

5madthings Sat 31-Aug-13 17:47:44

Hmm I may check my bra size as I am not sure I am wearing the right one, there are threads on that? 32 underrbust about a 40 round my bust?

sorrel you sound fine! I too could never be an 8-10 unless I bust a gut exercising and cut out eating everything I like, not going to happen!

jenjenjenjenjen Sat 31-Aug-13 17:52:28

I am 6ft tall and a size 18 and don't look as big as I sound lol ( but have a bum to rival the Kardashian sisters) it all depends on where you put the weight on and how tall you are :-D x

Thumbwitch Sat 31-Aug-13 17:56:45

5mad, apologies if this is a silly question but you are pinching your inch vertically, aren't you? I know the first time I heard about pinching an inch, I did it horizontally and was a bit "eek!", which considering I weighed about 8st at the time was a bit daft... and then someone told me it's a vertical pinch (couldn't get more than just skin that way). Such a massive difference now sad

cardibach Sat 31-Aug-13 17:57:55

Sparky that site tells me I'm a Next 22! I'm an 18 in Next and a 16 in some other places (e.g. White Company) so either I can't measure or the site doesn't work very well! Incidentally, in apparently vanity sixed M and S I can't get into either 16 or 18! I also have clothes from 20 years ago (kept till I fit them) their label sizes make them exactly the same as modern sizing.
I can see that I could be a 12 without being too thin, but I have not been less than a 14 for about 30 years and I wasn't fat then (5'10"). I understand what some of you are saying about people being unwilling to accept they are overweight, but I do think that on MN there is a greater problem with the slim feeling fat. Overall I agree with Pinupgirl.

FrigginRexManningDay Sat 31-Aug-13 17:58:49

My WHR is .85, work to do lol. I said the 12 was vanity sized. My size is not healthy.

SorrelForbes Sat 31-Aug-13 18:06:16

5madthings Try a 32FF.

5madthings Sat 31-Aug-13 18:07:42

I was pinching horizontally actually, def less when I pinch vertically but still too much, grr to muffin tops! I and never heard that you are meant to pinch vertically!

I am reassured that my waist to hip ratio is healthy and I know your waist is mean to be less than half your height which mine is.

Parmarella Sat 31-Aug-13 18:08:15

Wow look at all the ladies measuring themselves, weighing themselves, comparing themselves to other women, defining themselves through dress size.

Who gives a fuck about anyone else's measurements? Really?

OP, on the whole, women who wear size 12 are usually not heavy or overweight, yet I am sure there must be some fat women who manage to squeeze into a size 12 item occasionally. So what does this all mean?!

Probably nothing ;)

RussiansOnTheSpree Sat 31-Aug-13 18:08:57

5mad I think that'd be a 32G?

As far as pinching an inch I can pinch much much more. Always have been able to. But I think it's just skin not fat.

5madthings Sat 31-Aug-13 18:09:37

Thanks sorrel I just imputed those measurements on an online calculator and it said I should be a 36c... Ha ha ha that would be way to lose on the underband and my boobs would be spilling out!

5madthings Sat 31-Aug-13 18:11:18

Yep some of mine so skin, carrying five babies of 9-11lb means my tummy is never going to be flat and toned! Small price to pay tho bit oh how I wish I had appreciated my tummy before children!

usuallyright Sat 31-Aug-13 18:18:45

Parmarella, that's the most sensible post on this entire sorry thread. And I agree, who really gives a fuck about measurements and comparisons? Really, who?
Depressing.

RussiansOnTheSpree Sat 31-Aug-13 18:19:33

Well, apparently you do.

Talkinpeace Sat 31-Aug-13 18:20:25

Funny,
I do not think I look scrawny in my profile picture .....
And yet in the other picture I was a size 12.
I'll never ever allow myself to get that heavy again as it was damaging my knees.

5madthings Sat 31-Aug-13 18:22:15

You look fab talkin well done smile

hardboiledpossum Sat 31-Aug-13 18:22:16

I don't understand the pinch an inch. Surely only people with rock hard abs can't? I can certainly pinch an inch and i have a waist measurement if 24"

5madthings Sat 31-Aug-13 18:23:21

How tall are you btw? Tbh I would say you looked bigger than a 12 in the other picture, but this not a full body pic, and pics can be deceiving.

Talkinpeace Sat 31-Aug-13 18:23:39

hardboiled
the day my profile pic was taken I could pinch about three inches (stretch marks)!

5madthings Sat 31-Aug-13 18:24:20

Are you pinching horizontally or vertically? Am sure most people can pinch an inch, mine is a bit more than an inch, tho much less if I pinch vertically!

Thumbwitch Sat 31-Aug-13 18:24:21

pinching an inch = a) not that useful and b) you're definitely supposed to do it vertically smile as you can see from the pic.

usuallyright Sat 31-Aug-13 18:24:26

clearly I am the only mumsnetter who doesn't weigh herself, know all her measurements off by heart etc, lol?!!

5madthings Sat 31-Aug-13 18:28:23

I don't know my measurements by heart, I do weigh myself once a week or so and I know my was it as it has gone down as I have been exercising, I took all my measurements and re did them after a month to see the difference, you can tone up but not lsoe ,much weight but still lose inches. I got the tape measure out again today as have been ,meaning to check my bra size ams this thread prompted me to check hip size etc.

It think it is interesting how size and weight can vary so much, just shows how different we all are smile

SorrelForbes Sat 31-Aug-13 18:38:31

I never weigh myself (slight issues with that in the past).

5madthings Step away from the on-line calculators, most of them are bonkers!

Metalgoddess Sat 31-Aug-13 18:38:58

Usuallyright I agree with you totally on everything you have said.

BuskersCat Sat 31-Aug-13 18:40:12

I'm 5foot3, weigh 10 1/2 stone (makes me 2 stone overweight) and am a size 12. I'd say that I am heavy.

ouryve Sat 31-Aug-13 18:42:35

So if you're fat at a size 12 then you're fat at a size 12.

If you're not then you're not.

But admitting you are and doing something about it, does not mean you have some sort of eating disorder or that you're body dysmorphic (SP).

Worra - if there was a MN quote of the day, this should be it.

forevergreek Sat 31-Aug-13 18:43:02

At a slim size 6-8, I can still pinch an inch.

SorrelForbes Sat 31-Aug-13 18:43:34

The bra calculators that is!

ouryve Sat 31-Aug-13 18:46:03

And I saw a woman today who was probably a size 4, not even a 6. She was no bigger than my 9 year old, but not completely devoid of a little shape around her hips and boobs. Really tiny. What actually caught my eye was the gigantic platform wedges she was wearing to get her above 5'. They were bigger than her head.

karalime Sat 31-Aug-13 18:47:29

I have read this entire thread and it seems the only person with size/weight hysteria seems to be you usuallyright. The consensus seems to be that we're all different shapes and sizes but to you it's only size 12-14 that is 'healthy'. And since size 6 is a children's size, is a size 16 fat? I'm 5'4", an apple shape, 9st6 with skinny legs, no boobs or bum and a size 12 on me would be FAT. My mum is a bit taller a has bigger boobs so for her a size 12-14 is normal. To paraphrase earlier 'we can't all be size 6/8/10', we can't all be bloody Kim Kardashian so enough with the lanky bashing.

fossil971 Sat 31-Aug-13 18:47:51

A short person might be over BMI 25 at a size 12.

I am truthfully a bit too heavy for comfort. I'm BMI 27-ish , 5'3" and fit into some M&S size 12 trousers, although I normally buy a 14. I'm sure some other fit healthy athletic people might be a similar weight but not feel they need to lose anything - fine!

Due to vanity sizing a current size 12 is a lot bigger than it was 20 years ago.

(slimming bore moment: Buskers you are the same as me, you can't be 2 stone overweight. You could lose 2 stone and be slim rather than borderline, is that what you mean? I'm holding out for 9 stone).

Pinupgirl Sat 31-Aug-13 18:48:36

You were not a size 12 in that before picture talkin-no offence but I am a size 16 and I don't have as round a face as that.

I do think you look very slim in the other picture but if you are happy with that then good for you-perhaps accept that other people are just as happy being a bit heavier?

Nope I never weigh myself either-I go by how my clothes fit. At a 34 inch waist I am sure many on here would think I am horribly fat whereas I think of myself as very voluptuous.

SparkyTGD Sat 31-Aug-13 18:53:18

I think in general for the average height woman (eg 5ft 4/5) a 12 is not overweight but for anyone smaller it might be, and for anyone taller a 12 is (usually) slim.

UseHerName Sat 31-Aug-13 18:53:35

this thread was in the back of my mind today as i spent the entire day trying on jeans - utterly depressing, none fitted and i feel like a fat fucker [blue]

karalime Sat 31-Aug-13 18:57:15

I guess that's kinda the point Pinupgirl, 'size 12' is about as useful as '34 inch waist' as a measurement because it depends on your build and height. Personally I go by whether I have started to look like an egg with legs since all my flab goes on my middle.

LazyMonkeyButler Sat 31-Aug-13 19:03:57

I'm 5ft 10. A size 12 is my smallest dress size possible. My hips (i.e. the actual hip bones) prevent me from ever being a size 8.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 31-Aug-13 19:06:03

Lazy - my colleague is the same height and size as you,looks very slim indeed!

I'm always dubious when a magazine pronounces a 5'10/11 model is a size 6 (uk). I just wonder how it's possible!

Pinupgirl Sat 31-Aug-13 19:10:41

No the point is-why waste your life worrying about what dress size you are? I have been much thinner and heavier and quite honestly the label in the clothes didn't make a blind bit of difference to how happy or not I was.

As I said in previous posts confidence is key and I have it in abundance-I love my curves and will always dress to show them off. Others need to work on it but if you keep beating yourself up over your size then all you are doing is making yourself a miserable,boring twat.

5madthings Sat 31-Aug-13 19:14:35

I ddon't beat myself up over my size, but i want to be healthy aand am happier at a 10 rather than a 10/12 or a 12. The extra 7lb makes a big difference. My health is important to me, like it or not being overweight increases your risks of various illnesses etc. Plus I like being able to run around etc, when I am overweight (after babies) I really noticed the difference with how out if breath and hot and sweaty I got in the summer etc.

If you are happy and confident as you are that's great but I think its important to be aware of the impact weight has on health.

ouryve Sat 31-Aug-13 19:26:41

Sparky - I'm an arseless wondwe with a poor WHR, too. Even when i got down to 9st4, a few years ago, M&S size 10 jeans were a bit tight around my 30" waist and I couldn't fasten some - but they were extremely baggy around my backside and thighs. If I'd worn a top that disguised the waist pinching, you would have said they were far too big for me on the grounds of how they fitted around the 35" backside. I tried on about 15 pairs of jeans before I found a pair of gap Long and Lean. My waist now varies between 31-33", depending on how hormonal and bloaty I am. Typically trousers that fit my waist on a slim day are 4" too big for me in the hips - that's a big discrepancy. (And thank goodness for Next slim fit!)

WorraLiberty Sat 31-Aug-13 19:27:26

Confidence is important Pinupgirl but so is health.

Just because some people want to lose weight/don't want to be a certain dress size, doesn't mean they lack confidence.

Pinupgirl Sat 31-Aug-13 19:27:26

I am perfectly healthy thanks-blood pressure and cholestorol completely within normal range. I have already had cancer-do I worry about getting it or any other disease every day? Not bloody likely-life is for living and that includes enjoying all the good things which in my book includes eating nice food and drinking wine!

Pinupgirl Sat 31-Aug-13 19:28:40

If your goal in life is to reach a certain dress size then sorry but you do have issues with your self esteem that need to be looked at-life is NOT a dress size.

GibberTheMonkey Sat 31-Aug-13 19:29:32

Alis- I wonder the same
I'm 5ft 11 (shrinking to 5 10) and when I got married I was an 8. I used to get nicknames such as the grim reaper. I can't imagine being a size or two smaller and not crumpling into a heap.

WorraLiberty Sat 31-Aug-13 19:30:53

I think you're being a bit dismissive here Pinupgirl

Just because someone watches their weight, does not mean their 'goal in life' is to be a certain dress size.

Not everyone who watches their weight has issues

Just as not every overweight person has issues.

Pinupgirl Sat 31-Aug-13 19:34:11

Well it depends on what you mean by "watching their weight" imo worra-if you mean that they regularly deprive themselves of nice things-eg choc,crisp,cake,wine etc-then yes I do think that is an issue. Why would you want to spend your life depriving yourselves of such nice things?

If you mean that they will have these things but will have them in moderation then good for them-all things in moderation are good for you. Exceptions being sex,wine and gingrin

WorraLiberty Sat 31-Aug-13 19:38:10

I meant the last one Pinupgirl grin

I think there's a huge difference between merely watching your weight and dieting.

I desperately want someone to invent a decent zero calorie wine

Fuck curing the common cold...priorities and all that blush

5madthings Sat 31-Aug-13 19:41:25

I don't obseess over my dress size, it can vary from store to store anyway but I do watch my weight. Not obsessively but family history of becoming overweight and my mum having heart issues and also family history of diabetes so I want to avoid those if I can. My gran also hhad awful arthritis in old age, it crippled her, her weight didn't help. I have ha dissues where I have broken bones and they ache/get stiff in the cold so I try to keep healthy because of that as well.

I am not obsessed, I eat chocolate and biscuits ams cheesecake, I dotn like wine but will drink cider or rum and coke. I enjoy life and that includes being active, with five children and school runs etc I am active and I enjoy going for long walks and bike riding and tubing and wall climbimng or whatever activity we feel like wanting to do with the children. As I said I really noticed the difference when I was overweight after having had children, I am lucky in that I did t get huge when pregnant and I lost the weight fairly easily with a bit of effort. I am aware tho I have a sweet tooth and could put on weight if I didn't exercise, plus the exercise is good for my mental health. Having suffered post natal psychosis and spent time in a psych unit I value my sanity!

Pinupgirl Sat 31-Aug-13 19:41:51

AAhh see I loathe counting calories worra-that way lies madness and making you crave the calorific thing you are not allowed! I am trying my best to be a bit healthier by eating 3 decent meals a day,upping my veg intake,avoiding snacking and trying/failing to cut down on my wine habit! But if I fancy a bit of chocolate or a cream cake then I will have one!

5madthings Sat 31-Aug-13 19:43:13

I dont diet, I just eat a varied, balanced diet and that includes chocolate and cake etc, I have maltesers for once the kids at in bed tonight! I couldn't and woultn deprive myself of anything, its just counter productive IMO.

5madthings Sat 31-Aug-13 19:44:55

And I have never counted calories, its duckign depressing even reading them. You go for a half hour run and its only burnt enough calories for half a twix! Nah I just eat what I fancy and that includes chocolate, probably too much chocolate but I am active and seem to have a reasonably good metabolism.

Pinupgirl Sat 31-Aug-13 19:45:27

The only time I didn't put on weight was when I was pregnant 5mad-I was very neat but had very small babies too-go figure!

I am just very aware that I don't want to pass on any bad ideas around dieting/depriving yourself to my kids as I have a mum who spent my life telling me I would be beautiful if only I lost a stone-even when I was a stunner in a size 10 dress!! I will never tell my kids you will be better/lovelier/happier IF...

Bunbaker Sat 31-Aug-13 19:45:36

"At a 34 inch waist I am sure many on here would think I am horribly fat whereas I think of myself as very voluptuous."

There is a notice in our pharmacy that states that if you are a woman and your waist is more than 31.5 inches you carry a greater risk of developing diabetes.

"Just because someone watches their weight, does not mean their 'goal in life' is to be a certain dress size."

I agree. A great many people just want to be healthy.

WorraLiberty Sat 31-Aug-13 19:46:32

Same here Pinupgirl

I have never been on a diet and I don't deny myself anything.

If I notice I'm getting bigger than I'm happy with, I reign it in a little and run about more.

That's what I mean about watching your dress size, doesn't necessarily mean you're obsessed.

For me it just makes sense because I'm 44 and not as active as I was when the kids were little.

I used to be a size 8 a couple of years ago and now I'm 8/10 which I'm happy with.

Pinupgirl Sat 31-Aug-13 19:52:17

But I don't have diabetes and I already stated my blood pressure and cholesterol are perfectly healthy. I exercise and I have plenty of energy to run around after my young children. And I enjoy myself,go out and socialise a LOT,have friends,dress well-oh dear should I be sitting at home hating myself for being a horrible fatty?grin

RussiansOnTheSpree Sat 31-Aug-13 19:53:55

Pinupgirl Not everybody thinks that choc, cake, crisps and wine are nice things. You think it's an issue that some people have different tastes to you? Really???? And actually - there are plenty of things that are nice. Fags, for example. But we know they kill us so we don't smoke them. sad - do you have an issue with that?

It seems to me you want to label everyone who doesn't share, and I dulce, the same vices as you 'odd'. Which is a bit egocentric.

LadyFlumpalot Sat 31-Aug-13 19:54:24

When I'm not pregnant I'm a size 6 to 8 at 5"3 and weigh (I think) about 8 stone. I'm perfectly healthy, energetic and happy. I'm just very little. I'm definitely not gaunt or ill.

BsshBossh Sat 31-Aug-13 19:57:39

Pinupgirl I was happy and confident at size 20 but I was jeopardising my health.

RussiansOnTheSpree Sat 31-Aug-13 19:57:43

Indulge. Bloody iPad.

WorraLiberty Sat 31-Aug-13 19:59:09

I think it's worth remembering that weight becomes harder to maintain as we get older...particularly post menopause.

So those people who are not bothered about maintaining or losing weight right now, may be very bothered in the future.

I personally wouldn't take the risk of weighing too much, no matter how healthy I am...because I'd worry about storing up problems for the future.

So many overweight people say it doesn't happen overnight, it just creeps on over the years...until it actually does take a toll on their bodies and then it's even harder to shift.

My 49yr old neighbour is proof of that. He's just had two knee replacements due to his weight.

Talkinpeace Sat 31-Aug-13 20:00:09

I control my weight to control pain.
I damaged my knees very badly as a teenager.
For every half stone I put on I get a day in the month of crippling pain.
At my current weight I get no pain.
At the weight in the earlier picture (dd is now 15) I was in agony 6 days a month.

OK I'm mean, I was size 12 in the month before they resized, its what is now a 14/16

I stay light to be fit and look forward to a long life without medication.
I do not own a set of scales - never have

BUT
Having recently spent two weeks in France,
the people at Motorway services in France have a noticably lower average BMI than those in the UK
those who think that being fat is OK long term are in denial - same as their American counterparts

5madthings Sat 31-Aug-13 20:02:50

I only ever put on about a stone and a half when preg, maybe two stone with ds4 and had big babies, but as I am only 5 2 I really notice the difference. I a, quite Happy at 9 stone to 9 5 anything under that and I look odd because of my boobs. I dotn obsess, same as worra I eat what I like but if I notice I have put on a bit then I cut down and exercise more. I am only 34 and know it can be harder as you get older to maintain a health weight and I have seen my mum battle with her weight for years. Hence I keep an eye on myself as I dotn want to get in the position where my weight creeps up without me noticing.

I just have a healthy attitude to food and exercise and want my children too see that example.

Bunbaker Sat 31-Aug-13 20:05:56

"I think it's worth remembering that weight becomes harder to maintain as we get older...particularly post menopause.
So those people who are not bothered about maintaining or losing weight right now, may be very bothered in the future."

So true. I have always been very slim. I am now 54 and have developed a jelly belly. I don't wish it to develop into all over fat so I have decided to deal with it now.

5madthings Sat 31-Aug-13 20:06:29

Yes exactly worra I want to keep my weight in check now rather than have it gradually creep up and then be a problem when I am older.

As I said there is a family history of diabetes and heart issues and arthritis, weight gain would make all of those more likely. Its easy to keep ,my weight in check now ish! But would be much harder if I thought fuck it and then ended up with two/three stone to lose.

BsshBossh Sat 31-Aug-13 20:10:01

I've seen it in my mum's circle of friends - women who ever bothered about their weight in their 30s, 40s then as they progressed through their 50s the weight crept on, harder to shift, now most of them (in their 60s now) suffering type 2 diabetes, knee replacements, heart and breathing problems, obesity... Yes, all confident women throughout but now leading physically diminished lives - my mum included.

It spurred me on to keep on top of any weight gain as it's one if my goals in life to live a long and healthy life.

BsshBossh Sat 31-Aug-13 20:10:22

*never bothered

WorraLiberty Sat 31-Aug-13 20:16:02

That's the point I was making earlier BsshBossh

It's all very well saying people shouldn't obsess (of course they shouldn't) and that self esteem is a great thing (of course it is).

But it's not all about vanity or what 'men prefer'...or whether 'most black people find extra weight attractive'.

It boils down to health and future health for me.

AnyoneButLulu Sat 31-Aug-13 20:16:08

Sadly true Bssh, and then as they go through their 60s and into their 70s their risk of breast cancer and dementia is considerably increased.

ouryve Sat 31-Aug-13 20:18:43

yy to getting harder to maintain weight as you get older. i ate a pretty normal 3 meals a day plus snacks 25 years ago when I was just above 7 stone. I eat a pretty normal 3 meals a day plus snacks now I'm just above 10 stone. I'm also an inch shorter than I was then hmm

BsshBossh Sat 31-Aug-13 20:19:42

Exactly. As I touched on earlier, I was a happy, confident size 20, a happy confident size 16... I had a lot of energy too, even though I have even more at size 10 nowadays. But I'm in my early 40s. Size 20 in my 50s? I think my experience would be very different...

Talkinpeace Sat 31-Aug-13 20:22:19

AS part of trying to understand weight gain, I put my height and weight into a pretty reliable site ...
between the age of 20 and 80, the number of calories you need to stay the same weight drops by a third.
How many older people remember to eat 2/3 of what the younger members of their families do ?

GrandstandingBlueTit Sat 31-Aug-13 20:53:32

I agree with Russians - Pinupgirl, you have a very blinkered way of looking at this.

It's great that you're happy with your body and that you eat what you like to eat, so I don't understand why you feel you had to vociferously defend it so much, nor dismiss other people's preferences.

I like chocolate well enough, but, meh, I don't love it. And don't feel the need or desire to eat and/or resist it all the time.

Some people like to eat whatever they want, whenever they want, and not deprive themselves. And the end result is that they probably aren't all that slim. They usually carry a little bit of extra weight. That is just fine, if that is how they like to live their lives.

Other people prioritise other things. I don't like to deprive myself (grin at the very notion), but I like clothes and I like to look good in them. So I do tend to prioritise that over eating whatever I want, whenever I want. And I am perfectly confident, thanks. smile I am 5'10" and a size 10/12; if I'm brutally honest, that infers a great deal of confidence!

Neither of us are right or wrong or better or worse, so long as we're doing what we want for ourselves.

Pinupgirl Sat 31-Aug-13 21:07:08

I am not defending anything-as I said I am happy and confident at the size I am. I am not pining to be a size 10 and I find women who witter on about diets,calories and being a size 10 tedious in the extreme.

I also look good in my clothes-at<gasp> a size 16! As I said its all about the confidence and being slim doesn't mean you have it as proved by the number of posters on this thread who would be classed as slim but are still whinging on about their weight.<yawn>

GrandstandingBlueTit Sat 31-Aug-13 21:13:32

There is nothing more dull than anyone who drones on about anything, and diet-talk is dull as shite.

But you can't extrapolate anything from this thread alone. People have been invited to discuss the topic and so they are. It doesn't necessarily follow that they bang on about it to all and sundry outside of this thread. They might, of corse, in which case they need to cop onto themselves and find something more interesting to talk about.

Talkinpeace Sat 31-Aug-13 21:15:07

My normal topic of conversation is auditing so diets are light relief

RussiansOnTheSpree Sat 31-Aug-13 21:32:43

I think we may have a case of the honest Iagos here.

WorraLiberty Sat 31-Aug-13 21:44:55

I also look good in my clothes-at<gasp> a size 16! As I said its all about the confidence and being slim doesn't mean you have it as proved by the number of posters on this thread who would be classed as slim but are still whinging on about their weight.<yawn>

No-one is whinging about their weight on this thread confused

It's a thread about size/weight etc and so people are discussing it.

Just the same as you discussed your height, the fact you have no idea what you weigh and that you're a size 16.

That's just discussion...not whinging.

OvertiredandConfused Sat 31-Aug-13 22:01:50

I'm 5' 9", my BMI is in the middle of the healthy range and I'm usually a size 12 - occasionally a size 10 and sometimes a size 14. I used to be a size 20 so am delighted with this!

SlobAtHome Sat 31-Aug-13 22:07:35

"waist to hip ratio is a far better indicator of what is healthy." (than BMI)

Bull. Sorry, but that really IS down to build and natural shape. BMI ignores build as it is irrelevant to healthy weight.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 31-Aug-13 22:08:37

Pinupgirl

Nobody is whining about their weight here. And nobody has said being over a size 10 is unattractive. I see beautiful women all the time, it's their faces and the way they present themselves (and confidence) that is attractive not their size.

Talkinpeace Sat 31-Aug-13 22:15:27

Slobathome
BMI is not irrelevant or (as others have said) rubbish.
If your waist is more than half your height, there is a strong chance that you have excess fat around your vital organs - which is a health risk.
BMI in fine scale is indeed dependent on body shape : but if your BMI is over 26, you are overweight, no matter what your build.
With my build I'm overweight at BMI 23.

The British are (on average) overweight.
Chronic health problems linked to excess weight are costing huge amounts of taxpayers money in the NHS.
Eating less saves money.

BsshBossh Sat 31-Aug-13 22:19:51

Goodness pinup how on earth do you think the posters on this thread are whinging about weight?! It reads, overall, like an interesting discussion based on a variety of personal experiences and opinions.

I've made it my personal goal these past two years to get healthy and fit and drop from BMI 36 to 23 and have used Mumsnet almost exclusively to "witter on" about my weightloss journey. But my weight doesn't constitute the entirety of my life and life goals; so I never presume the same for other posters on this thread and on the weight loss boards.

PosyNarker Sat 31-Aug-13 22:37:41

Well of course you can be a bloody fat size 12.

I'm barely 5', weigh 10st 10lbs and am a large size 10 - 12. I am not thin. I buy a small in clothes in most shops for lycra tops, tights etc. but I am still not thin.

I work out a hell of a lot and have good muscle mass, which is why I'm tubby at this weight rather than looking obese, but no-one is going to walk past me and think I'm anything other than overweight.

Everyone's different. I have high muscle mass. My mother is 5' 3" but at the same weight she'll be 'fatter' because she doesn't work out. I'm still fat though...

Pinupgirl Sat 31-Aug-13 22:40:20

Yeah right Russian-I must be jealous of all slim women right? Eh no I am happy in my own skin and as I said after having a life threatening disease I dont worry about whats around the corner.Whats for you wont go by you.I find it laughable that some posters on this thread cant accept how happy and confident I am even though I am a wee bit fat.It seems to really irk them.

WorraLiberty Sat 31-Aug-13 22:44:58

Pinup I honestly don't think anyone here is going to give a shiny one about what you or anyone else weighs.

I think if anyone is getting irked, it might be because you've accused people of whinging when they're simply having an adult discussion about the topic in hand.

It's good that you're happy with your size and that you don't know or care what you weigh. It's also good that you're healthy right now.

But you're coming across as a teensy bit judgemental of those who do care imo.

RussiansOnTheSpree Sat 31-Aug-13 22:48:56

pinupgirl People who feel the need to bang on incessantly to all and sundry about how attractive they are and how confident they are usually have ISSUES in my experience.

FYI I'm not irked by your claims of gorgeousness and confidence. I find them mildly diverting. And more interesting than the Gaelic music programme my DH currently has on the telly.

Am I allowed to say I genuinely don't find cake chocolate or crisps all that?

I don't crave them and could happily never eat them again.
Cheese, wine, yeah. Yum.
But the idea that we all crave/battle sweet stuff has always puzzled me. Going without is no deprivation for me and lots of other people I know. Of varying sizes and fitness levels.

tb Sat 31-Aug-13 22:54:01

I'm just under 5"5', and last time I was a size 14, I measured 37-24-35 and weighed nearly 10st 7lbs. I was weight-training doing circuits 4 times a week.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 31-Aug-13 22:56:06

Why is it wrong to care about ones weight though?

I mean, all power to women who are comfortable at whatever weight they are. But many aren't and it's important to acknowledge that too and provide support in making the changes that will enable them to be happy.

I'm not happy at the weight I am currently. I still wear the same size clothes but look better weighing a bit less. This is a fact that can be seen in photographs (not that I'm providing any). I've had eating issues in the past, quite severe ones and it's taken a long time for me to be able to trust myself to address weight issues in a rational way. I think I am at the point where I can do so now. So I will. It's half a stone,that's all. But I've had to deliberately concentrated on just enjoying food for years to get here.

Pinupgirl Sat 31-Aug-13 22:57:46

Wow Russian I have really hit a nerve with you havent I?-are you ok? Fyi I never laid a claim to gorgeous-I wish! But I am very confident and I suppose some people are threatened by that.Their problem.

Talkinpeace Sat 31-Aug-13 23:01:44

pinupgirl
put up a profile photo to back up your words

Pinupgirl Sat 31-Aug-13 23:02:42

Allsvola-are you still getting help with your eating disorder?

RussiansOnTheSpree Sat 31-Aug-13 23:05:44

Not at all. I just don't like people who bang on incessantly about how great they are. It's invariably either dishonest or deluded. I'm not the one acting as though they feel threatened, after all.

Pinupgirl Sat 31-Aug-13 23:07:42

No thanks Talkin-I come on mn to escape rl! And I have no need to"back up my words" to a bunch of strangers. I think you need to take a step back-you appear to be taking this thread way too seriously.words on a screen and all that-

Pinupgirl Sat 31-Aug-13 23:12:02

I dont feel threatened by keyboard warriors.Ever.I think thats your projection Russian.Again.where did I.say I was great? I dont believe I used that word once on this thread? I said I was happy and confident in my own skin because I am-what is YOUR problem with that?

WorraLiberty Sat 31-Aug-13 23:12:04

Wow Russian I have really hit a nerve with you havent I?-are you ok? Fyi I never laid a claim to gorgeous-I wish! But I am very confident and I suppose some people are threatened by that.Their problem.

Why in the world would anyone be threatened by someone who says they're confident, overweight, happy and healthy?

That's like feeling threatened by a smoker who says they love smoking, they're confident and are happy and healthy.

The only thing running through my mind would be that I hope they're still healthy in a few more years and that they don't have medical issues due to their choices. Or that they don't choose to get pregnant and possibly put their baby and themselves at any avoidable risk.

But I don't see where 'threatened' would ever come into it?

Talkinpeace Sat 31-Aug-13 23:19:15

One of the reasons I am unwilling to risk being unwell due to being overweight is to reduce the chance of becoming a burden on my children and later grandchildren.
Too many friends are caring for chroncally ill parents while still dealing with children at home.
The majority of chronic illness can be avoided by adopting a healthy lifestyle.
We owe it to ourselves and our descendants to try.

Pinupgirl Sat 31-Aug-13 23:19:28

Worra-well some people on this thread clearly are threatened by my confidence as they feel the need to deride it,respond or snipe at me.But as I said-their issues. I have to retire to bed now but I think this has been a very interesting thread.

SlobAtHome Sat 31-Aug-13 23:21:19

Talkinpeace Yes I was saying that BMI IS a good calculator. I was arguing against someone who said it wasn't and said that waist to hip ratio is better. Like i said, waist to hip doesnt take into account hip build. BMI ignores build and is a good calc.

ouryve Sat 31-Aug-13 23:21:46

The British are (on average) overweight.

Quite, Talkinpeace

I've been quite clear about my proportions. I am very borderline on all the health indicators. I've been quite clear that I have a joint disorder which can't tolerate me carrying too much weight. Unfortunately, the drugs I take to help manage the pain pre-dispose to weight gain. I'm taller than most of the women in my family in the generation previous to mine, but like them, I predispose to the classic British dumpy.

I'm by no means the slimmest mother on the school run, but those who make me think "Wow! She has a fabulous figure and she's glowing with health, ah, those were the days" (and by that, I'm not including the really skinny ones because none of the really skinny ones in this particular cohort do look at all healthy) are few and far between.

Butwilliseeyouagain Sat 31-Aug-13 23:22:11

It certainly hasn't been my experience that men prefer 'curvy' women. When I was a size 12 I could have burst into flames and no-one would have noticed me. Then I went down to a size 10. Women told me I was too thin. Men were practically chasing me down the street.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 31-Aug-13 23:24:02

Pinup

That is really fucking rude. I don't have an eating disorder anymore thank you very much. I haven't said anything against your posts is there any need to be so fucking rude and offensive?

WorraLiberty Sat 31-Aug-13 23:24:53

Night Pinupgirl

RussiansOnTheSpree Sat 31-Aug-13 23:25:14

You have said several times how attractive you think you are. You have said how confident you are. Several times. You have mentioned that you used to be a size 10 'stunner'. You have called so,e of the posters in this thread miserable boring twats. You have suggested that anyone who doesn't like the foods you seem to be somewhat obsessed by is depriving themself and has issues. Many many people in this thread have commented negatively on your posts today. Not just me. You have claimed that anyone who thinks your postings are a bit off must be 'threatened' by you. And yet you seemingly don't understand why people aren't embracing your posts with acclaim.

For myself, having also had a life threatening illness (when I was much younger) I loathe it when people flash that as some kind of moral trump card to justify insulting other posters. You were never insulting me since I don't even know what I weigh so I certainly don't obsess about it, nor do I whine, nor do I count calories. But you were being n kind to others in this thread. For no reason other than they aren't like you. Which is no good reason at all.

ouryve Sat 31-Aug-13 23:27:22

Pinupgirl Sat 31-Aug-13 23:02:42

Allsvola-are you still getting help with your eating disorder?

_______________________

Why is this any of your business?

Wanting to be or stay a healthy weight is not a symptom of an eating disorder. Are you doubting this poster's assessment of the weight she needs to be to feel and be healthy?

ouryve Sat 31-Aug-13 23:28:40

And I've done the life threatening illness, too. I'm sure that many of us have.

WorraLiberty Sat 31-Aug-13 23:32:26

Obesity can cause life threatening illnesses too

Which is another reason many people want to look after their weight.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 31-Aug-13 23:34:13

Thank you ouryve.

Pinup

I mentioned my past issues because I am proud to have overcome them. Not for you to question it. Not as secure in yourself as you make out it seems.

RussiansOnTheSpree Sat 31-Aug-13 23:38:21

ouryve Exactly. It doesn't give us a free pass to denigrate other women's concerns. They may be valid, they may be invalid, but it's not for anyone else to say. Just because I've been given the last rites it doesn't mean I'm the arbiter of what's important and what's trivial for everyone else in the world for the rest of time.

VileWoman Sat 31-Aug-13 23:42:56

You'd have to be very short to be 'heavy' as a size 12. I'm 5'2" and have a healthy BMI and wear a size 12/14. I can see that body shape might make a difference, I'm fairly gifted in the boobs (30G) so my dress size is pushed up by my breasts. My Mum wears smaller tops than me but has a much lumpier waist area than I do (I have trouble getting trousers that fit round the waist, they are all too baggy).

PosyNarker Sun 01-Sep-13 00:06:04

Crikey, it's enlightening to see it all from the other side. I was always thin but curvy, fantastic metabolism etc. Then I had a serious, if not immediately life-threatening illness, requiring steroids. It took best part of three years to get this under control during which I got a big baw face and a belly. I was always chunky of leg, but concave stomach, hourglass figure, skinny face.

It's been 18 months. I work out. I'm strong, fit, healthy, still fat. My metabolism is shot to shit. I could lose I'm sure by doing 1000 cals per day and I probably will but it's a hard pill to swallow for someone who was previously 'gifted' with a brilliant metabolism.

I choose to focus on the fact my natural muscle building hasn't apparently been impacted, so I am strong and I am fast...but I am also fat.

WorraLiberty Sun 01-Sep-13 00:39:05

Vilewoman I'm 5ft 3" and would be very 'heavy' (or fat) if I were to go to a size 12.

I really do think it depends on height, frame and how/where we carry our weight.

foreverondiet Sun 01-Sep-13 01:09:44

Depends on height. Heavy for me at 5 foot 4. But maybe not heavy if taller.

ceeci Sun 01-Sep-13 01:22:44

It really depends on the build of the person and also some people can squeeze themselves into size 12's, it doesn't mean they are a 12 though!!

Vanity sizing is outrageous in some shops also and people may find that they have been gaining weight over the years but yet they magically fit into smaller size clothes than they used to!

Thumbwitch Sun 01-Sep-13 01:28:27

Actually waist circumference all by itself is a better predictor of certain weight-related diseases/conditions, such as type II diabetes and high blood pressure. WHR in combination with BMI makes a better predictor than BMI by itself, as BMI doesn't take into account fat distribution, where WHR does.

Bunbaker Sun 01-Sep-13 08:34:48

"The British are (on average) overweight."

Sadly that seems to be true. I have just come back from a holiday in Italy. The only overweight Italians I saw were much older people. I didn't see any young overweight Italians, but I did see young overweight British people.

FiftyShadesofGreyMatter Sun 01-Sep-13 09:17:43

Talkinpeace - that's interesting. So today's size 14 is really an 18! Brits these days are really kidding themselves, eh. I wasn't aware of this as haven't lived in the UK for 27 years.

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 09:41:22

Apologies if I touched a raw nerve with the question about your eating disorder alls but you were the one who brought it up so I assumed you were happy to discuss it. Perhaps if you wish to keep these things private then keep it off a talk forum?

Let me say once more for those whom for whatever reasons seem to have decided to try and pick my posts aparthmm-I don't give a shit what other women weigh-ypu can be size 8 or size 28-couldnt give a flying fuck.

. Its irrelevant to me. If they want to diet or be gym fanantics-good for them. But don't lecture me about my weight or how I choose to live my life because you are unhaopy with yours.

GrandstandingBlueTit Sun 01-Sep-13 09:44:38

Good Lord, Pinupgirl - wake up on the wrong side of bed, did you?! grin

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 01-Sep-13 09:54:14

Pinup

Try apologising without using the word "if" next time. I am fine discussing it in the past tense because that is what it is, in the past. You were unnecessarily rude.

Off you go to being your gorgeous and oh so confident self. Have a nice day.

Nannyme1 Sun 01-Sep-13 09:57:12

This thread has got me very depressed!
I'm 5'7 and all the people saying they are that height or taller and weight less than me saying they think they could lose 7-10lbs... Just confirms my beliefs that everyone has been trying to talk me out of for years!

Had do idea about the vanity sizing.. Now shops could be VERY different but had no idea jus how much things had changed.

Nannyme1 Sun 01-Sep-13 09:57:19

This thread has got me very depressed!
I'm 5'7 and all the people saying they are that height or taller and weight less than me saying they think they could lose 7-10lbs... Just confirms my beliefs that everyone has been trying to talk me out of for years!

Had do idea about the vanity sizing.. Now shops could be VERY different but had no idea jus how much things had changed.

Nannyme1 Sun 01-Sep-13 09:57:57

Sorry posted twice

usuallyright Sun 01-Sep-13 09:58:05

I'm sorry, but size 12 is not "very heavy" or fat if you're 5ft 3, absolutely no way. I don't care what kind of shape you are! Ridiculous.
The only possibility of a 5ft3 person being "very heavy" as a size 12, is if you have a very very skewed, unhealthy image of your body. It's very telling and unsurprising that there are people here, on this thread, who've had/have eating disorders, chillingly advising us that size 12 is fat.
It's quite scary that teenage girls could stumble upon this and believe it.
It's simply not true.
It's a symptom of body dysmorphia is what it is.

usuallyright Sun 01-Sep-13 10:02:07

for those unfortunate enough to have stumbled on this thread, in need of some positivity, click here:

www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/4014153/Size-14-women-happiest-with-life-and-looks.html

ArtemisatBrauron Sun 01-Sep-13 10:02:36

I was a large 10 sometimes a 12 in my first year at uni (living away from home, eating crap, drinking way too much wine

I was definitely too heavy for my height - 5'1.5. I looked bloated and unhealthy. I am a 6-8 now and still not "skinny" - I have 28E boobs and carry weight on my hips/upper thighs.

If I were a true 12 I would look dreadful.

working9while5 Sun 01-Sep-13 10:04:36

I think it's nuts there's 400+ posts on this. Does it matter? I mean, I know MN excels on the small stuff but is this even controversial? Really, people care? confused

Salbertina Sun 01-Sep-13 10:07:24

Height is obviously key- v short people may well be overweight and a 12, v tall people, slim.

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 10:25:11

Completely agree usual-it is so fucking depressing that people on here are so insecure with how they look that they have nothing better to do than to attack me because I am happy with myself. Honestly if they were truly happy why would they give a fuck what I have to say?

There is no zealot like former fatties it seems going by this thread.

alls-I apologised.If you don't have the grace to accept it that's your look out. I wish you continued good health and good weight.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 01-Sep-13 10:26:56

Thanks Pinup. That last comment of mine was ungracious.

usuallyright Sun 01-Sep-13 10:31:46

pinup, I bailed out as soon as I guessed/ realised that people with eating disorders were handing out advice to other people. Several celebrities now recovered from eating disorders, including at least one Spice Girl, were oce evangelical about being skinny. Many years later they confessed that they'd been fighting an eating disorder at the time. I remember my sister reading an interview one of them did many years ago, about how fit, healthy and happy they were and so much better at a smaller (size 6) size. They later admitted that they'd been ill and had bulimia. I know there are a few rare cases of naturally tiny older women wearing size zero, but most are like the Spice Girl, fighting a daily battle against an eating disorder.

SlobAtHome Sun 01-Sep-13 10:34:46

People coming on and saying others have body dysmorphia because they dare to say what is over weight is what is wrong with the country and why we are turning into a fat nation. The amount of excusing you see between people (men and women) day to day in RL life is shock. Nobody (me included) dares to say 'actually you are overweight and you look it'

The amount of times people tell me I am too skinny and need to eat more every week is crazy when I have a healthy BMI. BMI is a good measure, the arguments people use against it are pathetic (and tbh, not based on any fact as it's usually about build and bone - both of which can be proven to not make much difference). It's because we don't like to accept that over all we have many overweight people walking all around now.

The people telling me I need to eat more are always overweight people who try to tell me they are happy with their bodies but will later admit to wanting to look slimmer/ hating the way they look. It's so frustrating.

I genuinely am confident in my body because I know that I am a good weight, I eat well except the chocolate and sweets , I have worked on muscle and fat, I feel fit and energetic (you can't have much energy if you are underweight - fact), and I also have people, men and women commenting on how nice my body is. shame about the face

Last year I had put on some weight so I go back to the gym and got rid of it. Then people harp on about being jealous and how they can't do anything about their weight etc. Er, go to the gym and actually push yourself, don't walk half arsed on the treadmill!

Ok I got lost on my point and had a rant.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 01-Sep-13 10:37:32

usuallyright

Having had an eating disorder doesn't preclude people from being able to have an opinion on why Britain is a fat nation.

You have charming opinions across the board I've noticed.

SlobAtHome Sun 01-Sep-13 10:42:41

Having an eating disorder that you have genuinely recovered from may well give you a balanced view. It may do the opposite too. hard to say, but you have right to an opinion either way.

usuallyright Sun 01-Sep-13 10:44:03

Please.
If you're a teenage girl stumbling on this crap,
look away now.
It's an oddity on Internet fora, this body image bollocks.
Size 12 is only fat through the eyes of someone reed thin and frightened of body fat, even the teeniest tiniest inch of it.

itsonlysubterfuge Sun 01-Sep-13 10:50:38

I don't understand why people are saying it's fat on a short person, but not a tall person? If a size 12 was a 30" inch waist, how does that effect height? For someone who is 5' it takes a lot less weight for them to be a size 12 than it does someone who is 5'7".

A size 12 in my opinion is not healthy, it is overweight. Assuming of course you aren't bulging with muscles, and it is indeed fat that is adding to inches rather than muscle.

I think peoples ideas of a healthy weight are so messed up these days. You have two extremes I find, the people who say I'm a size 16 and that's normal and a healthy weight, I look great and I'm not a toothpick. Then you have the people who are a size 6 and think they are far too fat and should slim down a bit. Obviously everyone doesn't fall into these categories, but a large portion of people do.

I might also add that I am American and my ideas of number sizes are also slightly different, however I find that I wear the same size in America that I do in the UK, so I don't know why people say they are not the same, when in my expereince they are the same, generally speaking.

usuallyright Sun 01-Sep-13 10:53:10

pro-ana websites used to baffle me beyond belief, but having stumbled upon this thread, and several just like it over recent months, I completely understand where the pro-ana websites and mindsets spring up from.
I'm so fed up of this Aibu forum, full of this unhealthy nonsense. And I'm even more annoyed with myself for engaging with it.

GobblersKnob Sun 01-Sep-13 10:54:08

I am a 12/14 mostly a 12 atm, I am 5'10"

I think I am pretty heavy, I have literally rolls on my belly and almost a double chin ffs. I am not deluded my eyes and clothes tell me I am a bit on the porky side, I badly need to lose at least a stone and am addressing that.

Everyone is made SO differently, I have a friend who is several inches shorter than me, a size 12 and has not an smidge of fat on her, looks perfect for her size.

ILikeBirds Sun 01-Sep-13 11:00:38

"I might also add that I am American and my ideas of number sizes are also slightly different, however I find that I wear the same size in America that I do in the UK, so I don't know why people say they are not the same, when in my expereince they are the same, generally speaking."

Not my experience at all, in the US I would wear a size 6 or a 7 (if available), in the UK I'll wear a 10 mostly.

usuallyright Sun 01-Sep-13 11:05:01

Yeah, me too. I'm an 8 in the US, a 12 in the UK.

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 11:08:45

Bmi was made up by an insurance company. Many professional athletes would be classed as over weight using the bmi chart. Its a load of shit.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 01-Sep-13 11:12:52

I wear a much "smaller" size in the US than I do in the UK. They are most certainly not the same.

usuallyright Sun 01-Sep-13 11:14:15

I'm not sure what your point is?

usuallyright Sun 01-Sep-13 11:15:17

sizing is different in the US?
And?
I'm a US trainer size 7.5 and UK size 5 too!

marriedinwhiteisback Sun 01-Sep-13 11:15:34

When I was 21 and 9 stone I was between an M and S 10 and 12. Broad shoulders, big boned - no fat at stage. In my mid 20s at height of eating disorder when I was a bag of bones and M and S 10 hung off me and their 8-10 knickers were still too tight. At 53 I'm an M and S 14. I'm 2.5 stone heavier than at 21. I've had 3 babies - my shape has changed and my weight has changed; that's why the size has gone up NOT vnity sizing.

5'6", 11.5 stone, size 14, 53. I know where I am happier, healthier and at peace with myself. Pokes tummy but I'm confident in my own skin and that's what matters.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 01-Sep-13 11:17:14

I was agreeing with you usually confused

usuallyright Sun 01-Sep-13 11:20:00

sorry Alis, I've spent too long on this mind bogglingly stupid thread! I'm not surprised the OP hasn't returned.

ouryve Sun 01-Sep-13 11:20:16

usuallyright - this thread is not full of people saying that size 12 is fat. There are people saying that some people are fat at size 12 and some people are very slim indeed at size 12. There are people saying that we're not all built the same. Those people are in the majority. There's a couple of people who have mentioned that they feel fat or think that others are fat above a size 10, even if they're above average height. Those people are in the minority.

And there's a couple of people being quite hysterical, vociferous and aggressive at the suggestion that some people want or need to keep an eye on their weight, for health reasons.

If you don't like this thread, don't keep it burning by contributing to it.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 01-Sep-13 11:22:14

No worries usually smile. I've had a turn on this thread as well, it's an odd one.

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 11:23:50

pinupgirl Nobody here has lectured you about your weight. Nobody here cares about your weight (and I don't recall you mentioning it, either). Several people here have asked you to stop being so bloody rude about other people. Most people here haven't said they are unhappy with their lives. Most people here seem fine with their lives. Not you, obviously. You seem to have gigantic issues.

usuallyright Sun 01-Sep-13 11:24:41

Alis, as odd threads go, and Mumsnet in particular has loads of 'em, this one is right up there with the oddest of the odd.

fossil971 Sun 01-Sep-13 11:28:05

If BMI is a load of rubbish, "size 12" is far more rubbish.

I would say 90% of the time a size 12 would be a perfectly OK size for anyone.

But due to vanity sizing, it is possible for a short person to be slightly overweight and squeeze into SOME (M&S) size 12 clothes, I was just pointing that out. Really though if you are size 12 all over, weight is not likely to be your biggest problem.

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 11:28:49

Oh please Russian-you were constantly sniping at me last night and trying to put words in my mouth. I never once on this thread said I was bloody gorgeous-you exstrapolated that for your own reasons.

I have no issues-as I said I couldn't give a crap what others weigh. But I reiterate that I find women who witter on about weight,diets and their dress size boring as hell. My bag.

WorraLiberty Sun 01-Sep-13 11:30:56

Well said ouryve. This thread has gone back to being hysterical and ridiculous.

ouryve Sun 01-Sep-13 11:31:11

And there is a world of difference between completely denying your body any food because even an ounce of body fat is a sign that you've failed and that you must be disgusting (many people with anorexia have a huge ritual surrounding what they eat and when they eat it because it's often about exerting an extreme level of control) and being of the mindset that my waistband is getting tight/I've got an awful lot of wobble/I'm feeling sluggish and unhealthy so I'd best avoid the office biscuit tin/cut down my alcohol intake/do a bit more exercise for a while to keep it in check.

I would say it's rather dismissive of people with eating disorders or body dysmorphia to suggest that someone who is wanting or needing to keep their weight and muscle tone at an acceptable level has the same disordered mindset that they do. Not wanting a muffin top, or thighs that chafe, or to be out of breath just from walking to the bus stop is NOT the same as being convinced that you are hideous or weak or useless or a failure.

Bunbaker Sun 01-Sep-13 11:32:36

"If a size 12 was a 30" inch waist, how does that effect height?"

If you are 5' a 30" waist represents 50% your height. If you are 5'7" a 30" waist represents 44% of your height. Simply from a health perspective the smaller waist:height ratio is healthier.

Many of you seem to overlook bodyshape as a factor. Some of us have wide hips, some of us have big boobs. These two factors are the major decider on what size you are. For example, I have "childbearing hips" so am a trouser size 12. I am a 10 in all other measurements. I can't do anything about my hip bones yet am very slim.

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 11:33:30

Agreed worra-lets all agree that people come in all sorts of different shapes and sixes and as long as we are happy with our lot in life then that's all that matters.

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 11:33:41

I was not. I took issue with your rudeness and your overwhelming up-yourself-ness. As did several other posters. You have been vile to loads of people on this thread, calling some of them miserable twats. I personally seriously object to your using your own former health status to attack others. Like I said, having been given the last rites doesn't give anyone the right to denigrate the concerns of other people. You come across as entitled, up yourself, cruel and, overwhelmingly, rude. And when people call you on it you get even more arsey. As several people have pointed out this morning.

usuallyright Sun 01-Sep-13 11:35:08

ouryve, there've been a few people on here describing themselves as chubby, out of shape or wobbly at size 8. You might not consider that kind of comment disordered thinking or in the realms of an eating disorder, but I do.

Salbertina Sun 01-Sep-13 11:36:39

Personally i think women's clothes sizing is bonkers anyway! Dh just looks for his waist/leg length or chest/neck size and bingo! For us its do bloody variable, imprecise and guilt-inducing! and all propagated half the time by bulimic beauty editors/misogynistic designers anyway!

ouryve Sun 01-Sep-13 11:37:28

They're not in the majority, though, usually. And they're not the people who have been directly attacked.

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 11:38:40

It is not "up one's self" to have confidence Russian-its taking me to nearly the age of 40 to get to the stage where I am happy with the person I am-and that includes what I see in the mirror-and I wont have strangers on a forum denigrate that.

I apologised to the poster who thought I had been rude-did you miss that post in your hurry to snipe at me further?

I called no one a twat-read my posts carefully. I said that people in general who witter on about diets I find to be "miserable.boring twats". Imo of course.

Anyhoo this thread seems to be veering off in rather a strange direction so perhaps lets call it quits eh?

WorraLiberty Sun 01-Sep-13 11:39:03

Absolutely Pinupgirl

WorraLiberty Sun 01-Sep-13 11:40:11

Ooops X posted

I was agreeing with this...

Agreed worra-lets all agree that people come in all sorts of different shapes and sixes and as long as we are happy with our lot in life then that's all that matters.

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 11:42:06

Exactly the point I was trying to make usually before I was jumped on for being too up myselfhmm

Nowt wrong with wanting to try and be as healthy as you can and if that includes getting to a weight you feel happy at-all power to you.

Plenty wrong with people who quite obviously slim going on and on about how they have a bit of wobble to their stomach or how they must lose 7 pounds to be happy-that is fucked up as is thinking that anyone over a size 12 is obese-which I believe was the starting point for this thread?

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 11:42:46

Someone who doesn't exercise is likely to be out of shape whatever dress size they are. Being in shape is not a function of dress size. I have lost an inch off my chest since stopping doing weights at the gym (historic shoulder injury coming back to bit me on the bum). I'm less 'in shape' and yet slightly smaller. I'd prefer to be more in shape on my upper body but I can't risk my shoulder getting worse.

"If you are 5' a 30" waist represents 50% your height. If you are 5'7" a 30" waist represents 44% of your height. Simply from a health perspective the smaller waist:height ratio is healthier."

But what about hip size? My DD buys jeans to fit her hips, the waist is to small, some women have a bigger frame (as has been said again and again, but ignored). So the waist size is irrelevant. As is sizing to anyone who has muscular thighs.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Sun 01-Sep-13 11:45:16

Well that would ring a bit truer were it not for everything else you've said, Pinup!

At 5"4 and a size 8/10, I can grab flesh/fat anywhere you like to mention... at a size 12, I'd have at least another chin and a fistfuls of spare flesh. I would certainly look chubby, unless people think double chins are normal?

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 11:45:18

Several posters have said you have been rude. I haven't noticed you apologising to everyone. I find people in general who bang on and on about how confident they are (this demonstrating the complete opposite) to be overwheeningly hubristic twats. Yes let's call it quits.

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 11:46:34

Exactly, nit.

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 11:48:36

At size 8/10 and 5'4 you are not fat imo theoriginal-and women are supposed to have a bit of body fat.It serves an evolutionary purpose.

Bunbaker Sun 01-Sep-13 11:51:41

"But what about hip size? My DD buys jeans to fit her hips, the waist is to small, some women have a bigger frame (as has been said again and again, but ignored). So the waist size is irrelevant. As is sizing to anyone who has muscular thighs."

Waist size is important. If your DD has a small waist in relation to her hips she probably has a healthy waist to hip ratio.

I have that problem as well. My waist is 12" smaller than my hips. Further up the thread someone pointed out that waist to height ratios is important.

This link and this one explains it.

This link explains why the waist to hip ratio is important as well.

KatoPotato Sun 01-Sep-13 11:59:25

I'm a size 12. I've worked bloody hard to get here. I continue to work bloody hard. I no longer think I'm fat, but pics on profile to see if I actually am? <worried>

usuallyright Sun 01-Sep-13 12:00:24

You're supposed to have some body fat Nit.
It is NORMAL.

FunnyRunner Sun 01-Sep-13 12:02:05

Agree it's all to do with height and build. I'm 5'6" and at size 12 I was slim with nice curves. Even when slim overall I have a wide pelvis and good boobs. Even at size 14 I look relatively slim and in proportion because of the way I carry my weight. It helps that my arms, shoulders and face are very slim.

Bunbaker Sun 01-Sep-13 12:03:00

Is that you in the blue dress? You look fantastic.

usuallyright Sun 01-Sep-13 12:03:06

Kato, you are not fat. You have a lovely figure.

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 12:03:54

You look lovely kato-you are very pretty.

itsonlysubterfuge Sun 01-Sep-13 12:05:36

Maybe I'm shopping in different shops then other people who have bought things in the US. I wear a size 14/16 in the US and in the UK. Maybe it's only for thinner people, or maybe you lot buy nicer clothes than I do.

Also as far as the waist to height ratio, I was trying to say that bigger taller or shorter didn't effect the size of clothes you wore, it was size of the waist (or hips in some people's case) that determined the size of clothing you wear. So someone with a 30" waist would be a size 12 regardless of their height. I may be wrong, but that is my understanding.

itsonlysubterfuge Sun 01-Sep-13 12:07:43

that should saying being taller or shorter.

happybubblebrain Sun 01-Sep-13 12:08:05

KatoPotato - you look great, not at all fat.

To be less than a size 12 I have to starve myself. Not healthy and not worth it.

AnyoneButLulu Sun 01-Sep-13 12:10:10

Subterfuge, measurements naturally scale up with height, though they are not directly proportional. That's why BMI is based on height squared not just height or cubed. A 30 inch waist would be fine on a 6 foot woman but chubby on a 5 foot woman, and probably a health hazard based on the "half your height" rule. If my 5'11" SIL had my measurements she'd look like a famine victim, but on me (5'3") they look fine.

KatoPotato Sun 01-Sep-13 12:12:18

I think it's clear that there's no exact science here! I still have belly fat to lose but I'm not going to drive myself demented doing so!

Vanity sizing aside I'm finally happy, but that's because I'm fit and healthy now.

I think that we have lost all perspective on what healthy is, tbh.

Every study shows that if a level of activity and mostly a good diet is followed then being overweight doesn't impact on our overall health and lifespan.

Being overweight and obese are two different things, entirely, it is the difference of liking a social drink and being a raging alcoholic for 10 years.

I have Lupus, i attend my hospital for regular appointments, i took part in a trial which included disease screening and full bloods, my score for all major illnesses/disease was in the very low category, which surprised me as i was bordering on obese, at the time (i had just come off steroids and was recovering from blood clots through Pneumonia).

My consultants explained the effect of diet and lifestyle on the body. Weight only starts to matter when it reaches a certain level, which is more than having a stone to lose, if that person's general lifestyle was good.

I am Vegan at home and Vege when out (for practicality), reading through the cheap/healthy meal thread, i was amazed that pasta and cheap meat was considered healthy and veg was a "bulk-er" and not part of the real food ingredients.

I think we have lost all focus and relay on unsupported claims about health and weight via "Women's/health" articles/magazines.

If we held up Women from some African nations as an example to how we can all look, most of us would have to starve ourselves to death. If we held up other women who have well padded arses and thighs, then many would need fat injections. We come in different shapes and sizes.

WorraLiberty Sun 01-Sep-13 12:18:37

KatoPotato you look lovely in that pic

And it proves what so many of us have been trying to say

If you feel you still have belly fat to lose, that's your own personal perogative. Only you know what condition your body is in underneath your clothes.

It certainly doesn't make you body dysmorphic or any of the other ridiculous things people are saying, because you want to maintain your dress size.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Sun 01-Sep-13 12:21:38

Yes, I know I'm not fat now, and I know you're supposed to have some flesh!

I'm saying if I, at 5"4, would be chubby at a size 12, then of course it's possible that someone of 5 foot could be!

wharrgarbl Sun 01-Sep-13 12:25:25

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 12:31:58

I don't think being able to walk for two hours without turning a hair is anything amazing, tbh. Although it would be today for me because I have an infected foot. sad

Bunbaker Sun 01-Sep-13 12:33:14

I should think that most healthy people would be able to walk for two hours without turning a hair regardless of how much they weigh.

BlingBang Sun 01-Sep-13 12:33:32

I'm about 5 5" and a 12. I probably don't look that overweight in the UK to most folk but really could do with losing some weight and toning up the wobbly bits to be healthier. Of course a 12 on some people can make them look big. How can folk not see that a 12 on someone who a 5 2" and someone who is 5 10" is totally different?

BlingBang Sun 01-Sep-13 12:35:18

Was the fat friend though when I lived overseas. Then felt much skinnier when back in the UK. Folk in the UK are deluded.

ILikeBirds Sun 01-Sep-13 12:35:57

Yes, I find the thought that being able to walk for 2 hours without stopping is impressive is a little bit depressing tbh

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 12:38:13

Bling because they have serious issues. Which they are trying to project onto others. If I was a 12 I'd be practically round.

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 12:40:51

ILikeBirds More than a little! Hugely. We are, as a nation, becoming more and more sedentary. So many of us have practically enforced sedentary lifestyles. Exercise isn't just important for physical health, it's important for mental health.

SunshineMMum Sun 01-Sep-13 12:46:21

blush I have spent the whole week walking round feeling massive, as a size 14 at 5ft 1, after reading this thread. My aim is to get back to a size 12. Back to the gym, long walks and sensible diet next week. Thanks guys, feeling motivated! smile

BlingBang Sun 01-Sep-13 12:52:52

Good luck Sunshine! Just think how much better you will feel.

FunnyRunner Sun 01-Sep-13 12:54:44

Blingbang it's true what you say about being in a different country giving a different perspective. We were in Portugal over the summer and lots of the women are very slim - but equally a lot of the men are fat round their middles. I don't know if it's just the pressure of having a 'bikini' body.

But I do think genetics play a part too. Even when I was younger and slimmer I found it hard to buy bikinis abroad - my hips and breasts were just much bigger. I remember a friend working in Zara telling me that a lot of slim women with decent boobs find it hard to fit into Zara jackets etc because they are continental sizes and are cut very neatly round the chest. Certainly that was my experience - suit trousers were perfect but couldn't button the jackets round my norks.

FunnyRunner Sun 01-Sep-13 12:55:44

Sunshine come and join us on the C25K threads smile It's for total beginners and I'm enjoying it so far.

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 13:01:41

sunshine-by all means try and get a bit healthier if that is a concern for you. But never beat yourself up for a size label in your clothes-its not who you are. Love yourself,be confident and you will be a lot happier regardless of whether you are a 14,smaller or bigger.

BlingBang Sun 01-Sep-13 13:01:51

Funnyrunner - true, many European women are smaller than in the UK - the cut is probably different. Lived in Asia and it was hard to shop in the local clothes stores. Was often a XXL and the cut was for shorter women with small boobs. Got a shock in my first week though when went into a knicker shop and asked if they had "these" in my size to be met with, "Madame , we have nothing in your size". grin

Bunbaker Sun 01-Sep-13 13:04:25

Being somewhat underendowed in the boob department I shall get myself off to Zara to look for a jacket.

I bought a nice black jacket from BHS in the sale last month, but the darts in the bust just make me look even more flat chested sad.

It only cost £15 though so someone will find themselves a bargain in the charity shop.

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 13:07:30

The reasons that people in Asia and some parts of Europe are generally smaller are largely genetic. The same reason why a lot of afro-carribean women tend to the larger build-again genetics.

I have exactly the same build as my mother-broad shoulders,big boobs,very slim through the hips,slim arms and legs but carry weight on our stomach. My sister is very slim and has exactly the same build as my dads side of the family-tall,slim,no boobs,no bum.

I could diet until kingdom come and I wouldn't have the same build as my sister-ditto she could eat and eat and she wouldn't have the same build as me. Vive la difference I say.

SunshineMMum Sun 01-Sep-13 13:10:46

Thank you pin up girl, I have been everything from an unhealthy 6/8 to size 16 over the years. For the first time I am looking at eating for health and well being, rather than the daily obsession with the number on the scales.

wharrgarbl Sun 01-Sep-13 13:16:09

Well fancy that russians and bunburner - not from what I've seen.

wharrgarbl Sun 01-Sep-13 13:17:06

Yes, I find the thought that being able to walk for 2 hours without stopping is impressive is a little bit depressing tbh

Smug much? Come walking with me one day and see how you go, then. Oh and excellent selective reading there.

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 13:21:53

Sedentary lifestyles. Makes the ordinary seem extraordinary. sad

wharr I can easily imagine that you know a lot of people who can't walk for two hours. I know I do. But that doesn't make walking for two hours a Herculean or even noteworthy feat. It just shows how much attitudes in this country have changed for the worse in recent years.

wharrgarbl Sun 01-Sep-13 13:23:18

Didn't say it was Herculean - it was in there as one marker of my relative fitness for things. One.
And not in the UK, as it happens.

wharrgarbl Sun 01-Sep-13 13:23:59

Does anyone actually read for content, or just assume meaning from the keywords they apparently skim over?

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 13:33:16

Thinking that being able to walk for 2 miles is worthy of mentioning is an indicator that your view of what constitutes fit is a bit skewed. Pointing out that you seem mistaken about something is not an indicator that I haven't read your post. It's an indicator that I disagree with one of the opinions implied in that post.

If you didn't mean to imply that being able to walk for 2 hours was anything noteworthy then why mention it? You said your endurance was amazing. The evidence you offer to back up this claim doesn't stack up, that's all.

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 13:34:43

Did you actually mean 'normal' or 'nothing special' rather than amazing?

Why don't people write properly any more?

wharrgarbl Sun 01-Sep-13 13:37:40

FFS

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 13:40:09

Look, if you don't like people picking up on ridiculous hyperbole, then don't use ridiculous hyperbole. And don't criticise people for not reading your posts properly if you have employed ridiculous hyperbole.

working9while5 Sun 01-Sep-13 13:40:32

Birdsgottafly has it. People make it about health when really their concern I'd appearance. Like many others I've been everything from a 10 to a 16 and my heartrate, bp etc are all impeccable. When I was a size 12 my BMI was 21 on the nose and I'm not even that tall. It's all so irrelevant. Look at the bitchiness on this thread! Russian you might look round at a size 12 but it doesn't necessarily follow you would be unhealthy.

Why are women so stupidly obsessive about this? It's so narcissistic.

working9while5 Sun 01-Sep-13 13:41:14

is

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 13:44:14

But the question wasn't is a 12 healthy, it was is a 12 heavy. And it would be on my frame. Because I'm really small. It's entirely possible, I suppose, that I'd be healthy as a 12. But I'd be heavy and I wouldn't be an appropriate size for my frame.

wharrgarbl Sun 01-Sep-13 13:47:45

Look, if you don't like people picking up on ridiculous hyperbole, then don't use ridiculous hyperbole. And don't criticise people for not reading your posts properly if you have employed ridiculous hyperbole.

hmm

OliviaMMumsnet (MNHQ) Sun 01-Sep-13 13:50:50

Oh look. A helpful and healthy link to our talk guidelines
Thanks awfully.

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 13:51:05

Wharrgarbl if you are going to describe your endurance as pretty amazing, then don't use being able to walk for two hours as an example of that. Because being able to walk for two hours is not an example of amazing endurance. That's all. No need for a hmm from you.

Well, being able to move about for 2 hours ie walking, and being able to do a short, intense workout is normal but not extraordinary.

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 13:52:09

Fine. Apparently being able to walk for 2 whole hours is now officially amazing for mumsnet posters.

I can do that, am a size 12 and have still got a flabby tummy.
I could lose 5-7 lbs more and the belly fat and increase my overall fitness and that would be a good thing; not evidence that I am a weight bore, obsessive, vain or have an ED....

5madthings Sun 01-Sep-13 13:53:57

Yes I can walk for hours, I have to walk three hours a day for the school run. I do Davina and the Jillian workouts, plus I run and can run 10k in an hour. But I am not supremely fit, I would say I was averagely fit. I can do a reasonable amount of exercise. More than some but less than others. Its an amount that I feel keeps me healthy but nothing spectacular about it!

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 13:54:17

Trucks actually it's superhuman. According to mumsnet.

hellhasnofurylikeahungrywoman Sun 01-Sep-13 13:58:19

I'm 5ft 7 and am too big for a 10 yet a 12 is often too big. I am heavier than I have ever been, I carry most of my weight around my hips and thighs, I am miserable about it and today have joined Weightwatchers.

I do think I have a problem with body dysmorphia though as I cannot find one positive thing to say about how I look.

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 13:59:56

5mad I'm 4 minutes slower than you! (I will console myself with the fact that I run the second 10K in the same time so obviously I'm pacing myself!) grin I wouldn't say I was any more than averagely fit. A half marathon is definitely my limit. I have a friend who runs full marathons and he is definitely overweight. And yet very fit. Miles fitter than me. I know perfectly well that the relationship between fitness and size is complex and irrelevant for some areas of the size spectrum. But this thread wasn't originally about fitness - the question was is size 12 heavy, the overwhelmingly popular answer was sometimes yes, sometimes no, depends how tall you are - and some people have been determined to change the whole premise of the discussion to try and lob insults at people who either look or behave slightly different to the way they look or behave. Which seems nuts to me. sad

TheOriginalSteamingNit Sun 01-Sep-13 14:03:06

I can't walk for two hours without becoming very bored, though.

5madthings Sun 01-Sep-13 14:07:16

Oh yes I agree you can be overweight and still be fit, however in the long run being overweight is not healthy and it tends to catch up on you.

I haven't done a half marathon, I have ummed and ahhed about it but only took up running this year at the end of January. Did c25k and then then bupa 10k in may smile I was always a swimmer and swam long distance is 80lengths in an hour, again no amazing feet to just swim up and down for an hour.

A size 12 for me is heavy on ,my 5 w frame, I have big boobs and hips but am better at a size 10. At the moment I am a 10/12 in that my team fit but I jhave a muffin top, I need to lose 7-10lb. My bmi is 25 and my hip/waist ratio is all good but I would feel better and be healthier with a bit less chub! I am not obsessed at all, very realistic as I could never get down to say 8stone as many people my height are. I have also had five big babies so on the whole am perfectly happy with my size and weight. I dotn obsess, I dont count calories, or deprive myself but I do keep an eye on my weight.

5madthings Sun 01-Sep-13 14:10:15

See I like going for a good walk, we often do with the madthings, they need a good walk/run around or they drive me mental. Go somewhere nice tho, with views etc.

We are going to Whitby in a fortnight naught naughty taking the kids out of school for a holiday and am looking forward to walking holkham hole (sp) and along the coastline etc smile

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 14:11:48

Nit - that's what audiobooks are for! grin Although I normally run rather than walk. And right now I'm just looking at my poor hurty foot and thinking poor me (and having visions of lieutenant bush, obvs.......)

"Oh yes I agree you can be overweight and still be fit, however in the long run being overweight is not healthy and it tends to catch up on you."

Not according to medical science, there is a difference to being 7 pounds overweight, or bordering obese, though.

5madthings Sun 01-Sep-13 14:34:38

Yes there is a difference between 7lbs and being a stone/two stone overweight but people tend to put on weight as they age. So a stone overweight in your 30's might be OK but chances are you will put on more weight and become less active as you get older, therein lies the problem. My sil was a very slim size 8 when I met her, she has very slowly as she reached her forties put on weight. Say 7-10lb over a year, but she is now at least a size 16 and massively unfit at 42, she struggles with my school run walk. And now has a big battle to get to a healthy weight/level of fitness. If you keep an eye on your weight and stay a reasonably healthy weight (and my healthy weight still gives me a bmi of 23/24) then you are less likely to have health problems.

Weight can really affect your mobility, especially your joints etc. I have seen it with my own family. I want to keep healthy and active as long as possible, part of that is maintaining my weight.

Thumbwitch Sun 01-Sep-13 14:46:23

I agree with you, 5madthings.

I found that when I hit 35, things started to go a bit wrong for me - up until then I'd been able to pretty much eat what I liked, and had plenty of muscle to burn up what I ate - but hurting my back and developing ongoing sciatica put paid to my regular badminton, reduced my ability to walk for as long (down to a max of 1.5h before my leg started to drag) and slowly I started to put on weight, mostly around my middle. Then when my muscle:fat ratio reached a certain tipping point, I put on weight a lot faster. Now in my mid-40s, suffering from not only having had DS2 last year but also from middleaged spread, it's hellishly difficult to shift it!

I need to lose a good 2 stone in reality, 3 if I was being vain (which I'm so not) - but 2 for health reasons. And I need to work out some way to rebuild my muscles without setting off the sciatica again (have other back problems now too). Cycling would be favourite but it's very hilly here, our decent bike+baby carrier was stolen last year and hasn't been replaced yet, and DS2 is too small to sit in the carrier yet anyway.

Talkinpeace Sun 01-Sep-13 14:47:04

BMI WAs NOT made up by the man from Met Life.
Go back and watch the Jacques Peretti programme again.
BMI is not rubbish. It is statistically and scientifically valid.

Be overweight if you want to but why should I pay for your long term health care if its self inflicted.

As one of the skinnies on the thread (who is honest enough to post pictures and detailed information about my size) I do not have an eating disorder.
Overweight people do.

Parmarella Sun 01-Sep-13 14:47:18

Whargarble, did you say you were Scottish? A 2 hour hill walk in Scotland is proper exercise in my book!

2 hours flat walking, say along the river in the south where I live, is a piece of cake, however.

Don't know why people are jumping on your post TBH

Parmarella Sun 01-Sep-13 14:50:59

It seems to me that women get pissed off with women who are fatter than them, and who despite being fatter see no problem with their weight.

Every time someone overweight and/ or a size 12 or up claims to be fit and healthy and happy, they enrage those people who are slimmer and feel it us unfair that the fat ones can feel happy as they are.

I find this thread interesting but also a bit depressing

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 14:51:26

parmaella because she said her endurance was amazing. Hubris.

Eh?
Seriously, you think people being
bigger than oneself and happy is enraging?
WTF?

Parmarella Sun 01-Sep-13 14:53:17

Yep, takinpeace, all overweight people have an eating disorder.

Not.

That was exactly the sort of post I was talking about.

chibi Sun 01-Sep-13 14:54:38

re: why should i pay for your heath care if it's self inflicted

because that is what we do in a as society which has some sort of respect for the social contract

just like my taxes educate your kids, your mother's pay for policing in my aunt's neighbourhood, her taxes pay for etc etc etc

there are certainly many countries where the empathy free well to do can crow 'die fatty, it's all self inflicted!'

maybe consider finding one

i say this as a slim, healthy person who thinks that a worthiness test for accessing medical care is gross and antithetical to the principles of the NHS

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 14:55:16

parma If you read the thread you'll see that one poster was persistently unkind to other posters and when called on it claimed repeatedly that people were jealous of her confidence and her attractiveness. Despite being told more than once that no, it was her rudeness people didn't like. Another poster described her endurance as amazing and when a couple of people raised an eyebrow at the adjective she chose, went on the attack.

I haven't seen anybody of any professed size weight shape or level of fitness having a problem with anybody else's happiness. If people are happy that's great. Irrelevant to this thread, but nice anyway.

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 14:57:53

parma I agree that talkin's comment was OTT. But like I said - read the thread. A couple of other posters have been incredibly unkind, cruel and downright rude to some of the other posters in this thread. Perhaps Talkin got a bit fed up with it? I personally think it's all a bit comical but I can see how others might take it personally.

Parmarella Sun 01-Sep-13 14:58:12

As to thin people paying fat people's healtcare...

Well, eating, smoking and drinking cause all kinds of health problems, as does Sport ( yes, sport like my DH who has had 2 knee ops due to football, my friend who broke a leg skiing, my dad who fell of his horse and cracked his skull etc etc.)

You could really sum it up like this:

Living may cause death

People can be as thin, fat, smoky or sporty as they like, it does not concern me.

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 14:59:54

Smokers pay for everyone's healthcare. Which seems grossly unfair really. But on the other hand, let's salute them because they are potentially killing themselves for the greater good.

Parmarella Sun 01-Sep-13 15:11:18

Yes my FIL says he smokes as he is altruistic and wants to save the NHS money

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 15:17:08

Smokers and, to a lesser extent, drinkers. Important contributors to the national coffers. Hence neither activity is illegal.

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 15:22:35

Do you smoke Russian? surely you wouldn't be that big a hypocrite?wink

talkin-making inane comments about how you resent paying for fatties health care is not painting you in a particularly flattering light. Yet Im the one being called rude on this thread?

WorraLiberty Sun 01-Sep-13 15:25:53

I've just had a visit from my 81yr old Dad and it got me thinking about this thread.

Nearly all his and my Mum's overweight friends are dead. They died mainly in their late 50s/60s, along with many of the smokers.

One of his closest friends is overweight (and has been in the 40 years I've known him) and he's in a wheelchair most of the time due to joint and heart problems.

Yet they're from a generation where obesity was never a big problem.

So I can only imagine how future generations are going to suffer if/when it all catches up with them.

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 15:26:31

Wow who would have thought we could have taken the thread this far? Do you think we could make it to a 1000 posts with me proclaiming how much I love myself and Russian and talkin disputing this with their rebuttals-oh no you don't! cos you is a fattiegrin

Silverb1rch Sun 01-Sep-13 15:28:02

Haven't read all the thread but surely it just depends on how tall you are? I would look like a little fat pig if I were size 12! (Am 5ft 3 and carry weight pretty much on my lower half only)

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 15:29:47

But we are not talking about obesity worra-no one is arguing that being obese can be good for you. Merely pointing out that being a wee bit over weight is not the end of the world and no need to self flaggelate or wear sack cloth and ashes.

It highly amuses me that there are posters on here who genuinely think that their size equates to some sort of superiority over others.

twistyfeet Sun 01-Sep-13 15:33:33

How did this get a bit mean?

WorraLiberty Sun 01-Sep-13 15:34:24

I'm not talking about obesity either Pinupgirl...hence the reason I called them their 'overweight friends'.

None of them I would say were obese...probably due to the fact obesity was never a big problem during their lives.

But most of them were a 'wee bit overweight' at some point...then as they got older their weight crept up (as it does).

I would say they were mostly around size 16 but that's just a guess.

usuallyright Sun 01-Sep-13 15:38:30

Worraliberty, now I know you're having us all on and laughing at us!
Nearly all your mum and dads overweight friends died in their fifties and sixties?? You are seriously having a gigantic laugh, surely? Because thin people die too. All the time. Being underweight is more dangerous to long term health than being a little overweight.
But you did make me laugh out loud, so thanks for the giggles.

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 15:39:40

"living may cause death"-quote of the thread.

I suggest that it was smoking or drinking excessively or not taking any exercise that shortened your parents friends lives not being slightly over weight worra-older generations were not as aware of the health implications of such things.

It got a bit mean twisty because I am apparently to "up myself" as a happy,attractive size 16-far too uppity for a fattyhmm

usuallyright Sun 01-Sep-13 15:41:07

absolutely pinupgirl.

WorraLiberty Sun 01-Sep-13 15:42:53

That's a very disrespectful post usuallyright

If I were to answer you with what I think, not only would I get banned but I would be bringing myself down to your level....and I have more respect for myself than to do that.

It could have been to do with those things Pinupgirl, I have no idea.

But still the fact remains that they are dead.

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 15:46:15

But you posted with absolute certainty that they died because they were over weight worra? how can you know that for a fact but don't know if they were smokers/drinkers?

I am not looking to have an argument with you as I think your comments on this thread have been among the most sensible and measured.

usuallyright Sun 01-Sep-13 15:47:15

I think it's far more disrespectful for you to ate categorically that all those people died because they weren't thin.
I can't debate with you anymore because you haven't got a coherent argument anywhere. Your main argument, from what I can tell, is "fatties are horrid" The End.

PiddlingWeather Sun 01-Sep-13 15:48:24

OK I've read most of the thread and still haven't got a definitive answer

I'm 5'6, size 12, 36 C boobs, broad shoulders and long legs, eat healthily, don't smoke, rarely drink and exercise, though I'm not exactly toned or anything.

Am I fat?

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 15:48:39

Actually that's a bit unfair to worra usually-she hasn't been nasty on this thread.

WorraLiberty Sun 01-Sep-13 15:49:10

Then read my post again Pinup

I posted only the FACTS

Nowhere did I say I was certain they died due to being overweight

But the FACT is they don't have many overweight friends left

And as I said in the post, seeing my Dad today got me thinking about it.

usuallyright Sun 01-Sep-13 15:49:53

worraliberty, unless you have access to your parents friends death certificates, you can't and don't know that their weight killed them and it's disingenuous at best, tasteless and disrespectful at worst, to suggest otherwise.

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 15:50:57

No I don't think you sound fat piddling but other posters on here would probably believe you were not only fat but bordering on obese. Its their problem-not yours. You sound lovely to me.

I am a similar size and build by the sounds of it although with bigger norks-36e-and I am a 16 in clothes. I know I am a wee bit fat but it concerns me not in the slightest.

WorraLiberty Sun 01-Sep-13 15:51:27

I think it's far more disrespectful for you to ate categorically that all those people died because they weren't thin.

Read my post again ffs

<< Sigh >>

TheOriginalSteamingNit Sun 01-Sep-13 15:52:18

People who claim to have read everything that's been carefully said and argued but can only translate it as 'fatties are horrid', Usually, are the ones who haven't got a coherent argument and can't be debated with!

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 15:52:47

Calm down worra-this thread is getting way too serious.

usuallyright Sun 01-Sep-13 15:53:46

Pinup, she's using anecdotal examples and half baked opinion to underline what appears to be some kind of implicit prejudice against anyone larger than a size 8 and that may or may not be 'nasty' but it's sure as hell silly and crass.

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 15:56:29

I thought my argument was perfectly coherent nit?-be happy in who you are whether that is thin,inbetween or fat. Surely that is all that matters at the end of the day?

Imo diets make you miserable and in the long term they don't work. Eat well,exercise moderately and live happily. Weightwatchers,low carb,5/2-all fads designed to part you with your cash. Wise up.

usuallyright Sun 01-Sep-13 15:57:38

my last word in this silly silly depressing debacle of a debate:

Get thissadavailable in all good book shops
and libraries and is the closest you'll ever get to the absolute truth of the matter on this subject)
www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0099481936/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1378047331&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX110_SY165

timidviper Sun 01-Sep-13 16:04:23

worra My experience is absolutely the opposite of yours. In my parents' families, on both sides, it was the heftiest sibling who outlived the skinnier ones.

The trouble with both of our experiences is that the plural of anecdotes is not data so they are both interesting but, in the grand scheme of things, are meaningless.

higgle Sun 01-Sep-13 16:05:41

I'm 5'3" and a size 12 in top half clothes because I have wide shoulders and large rib cage. I'm at the very top of the "healthy weight" band. Now, I do remember being 11 1/2 stone a couple of years back and fitting into size 8 trousers from Peacocks - it does depend on what make of clothes you are looking at - Asda/George 12s are huge, Karen Millen are tiny.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Sun 01-Sep-13 16:07:01

Which would be a useful point to make, Pinup, if this were a thread about whether dieting is a good idea or not confused.

However, it is a thread about whether or not you can be 'heavy' at size 12, which I think it's tolerably clear that you can, if you are quite short.

Being overweight isn't a healthy option, any more than being underweight. Which is another point people have made.

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 16:07:40

No pinup. I don't smoke or drink. I'm not an idiot. Like I said -smoking and drinking would both be illegal if it wasn't for the tax take.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Sun 01-Sep-13 16:09:09

I however do both - ah shit, now I've totally negated the argument I made that fatties are horrid and they're all going to die of fat. Bugger sad.

higgle Sun 01-Sep-13 16:09:12

P.S. I work with older people and when you are 75+ you tend to do better if you are not super skinny ( though obviously not if you are obese) as any run of ill health when people are off their food or can't eat as usual is devastating if you have no reserves.

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 16:10:00

Pinup we all know you love yourself. You keep telling us. And the only person who has called you a fatty is you. I certainly haven't. Not once.

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 16:13:44

And whats wrong with loving yourself Russian?-surely we should all love ourselves? I really don't get your problem with that.

Yes I have said I know Im a bit fat-just as I know how confident and attractive I amgrin It seems to have got under other people's skin for some reason I cant fathom.

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 16:17:10

Nobody has said they have a problem with you loving yourself.

It gets a bit boring reading you telling us about it all the time though.

Talkinpeace Sun 01-Sep-13 16:17:51

higgle
so true : watching a friend die of pancreatic cancer - he was lean and healthy so had no reserves when his body stopped digesting fats
that extra half stone might have saved his life.
Which is why I like being slim but not skinny ....

I don't smoke but I do drink
BUT
I plan to make it to old age fit enough to be the one taking younger members of my family on outings, rather than the other way round.
Is that such a bad thing to aim for?

My grandmother was admitted to hospital age 92 and they were gobsmacked that she had all her own teeth and took no medication other than thyroid pills.
My target.

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 16:21:49

Eh you have repeatedly said that I cant be as confident as I make out Russian?-why are you now contradicting yourself? You inferred that my repeating my self confidence was a sign of a lack of it-I denied that because its bollocks. If I were going to lie on here then surely I would have said I was a size 8,6ft supermodel?grin

If the thread is boring you-don't read it or even better hide it. It is clearly irking you again.

PicardyThird Sun 01-Sep-13 16:27:02

Bemused by all these shorter people saying they would be fat if they were a 12. Am 5'1, a 10 all over and slim. Not skinny, but very definitely slim. I can only imagine that this has to do with people's perceptions of fatness.

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 16:27:47

I'm not the one with the issues. grin

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 16:29:42

There you go again with the "issues" Russian-why are you so determined that I have you? Anyway I thought we called it quits so why you still sniping?

hettienne Sun 01-Sep-13 16:31:10

I'm 5'1", a 10-12 and have a BMI of 27/28, so overweight. I don't think that's just a perception of fatness!

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 16:32:37

Bmi is a load of old bollocks-I shall keep repeating that.

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 16:32:59

I respond to you when you attack me by name. I haven't once initiated discussion with you. Why would I? You seem obsessed with me though. Not sure why. It's a bit creepy to be honest. But I'm coping.

hettienne Sun 01-Sep-13 16:33:49

And actually, at a BMI of 25 (about 9 stone 7) which is what my "natural" weight is, I am a comfortable size 10 but wouldn't describe myself as slim. Not fat, but definitely rounded.

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 16:34:53

No you repeatedly sniped at me,name checked me and clearly have an issue with me. You call me rude and yet you post your last comment?hmm I have clearly pissed you off-why you keep denying that fact I don't know.

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 16:36:00

It's hilarious.

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 16:36:14

I really think this post could get to 1000!-I could go on all day.

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 16:36:45

I have clearly touched a raw nerve somewhere<shrug>

PicardyThird Sun 01-Sep-13 16:36:48

My BMI is 21.6 at 5'1 and a size 10.

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 16:38:37

You sound like you are a lovely healthy size Picardy

hettienne Sun 01-Sep-13 16:41:50

Then maybe the short people who would be heavy at a size 12 are just heavier than you Picardy?

Talkinpeace Sun 01-Sep-13 16:44:47

hettienne
So, you are 5'2" and weigh 60kg
http://www.cockeyed.com/photos/bodies/heightweight.html
you are only a size ten in the vanity size shops

Everybody
clothes sizes ARE made up (unlike BMI)

measure your waist, now, with a tape measure.
measure your height, now, with a tape measure

if waist is more than 1/2 height, you are carrying excess fat around your vital organs that are trying to keep you healthy.

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 16:47:40

588 wow!

hettienne Sun 01-Sep-13 16:50:39

Sure, Talkin, a size 10 as currently sold in high street shops.

PicardyThird Sun 01-Sep-13 16:51:59

I'm a bit surprised there's so much weight variation at the same height and similar clothes sizes.

If I were a 12 I'd be bigger than I'd like to be but I wouldn't see myself as fat (I think - I don't know).

SorrelForbes Sun 01-Sep-13 17:00:30

PiddlingWeather Almost definitely not fat but almost certainly wearing the wrong bra size. It would be very unusual for a size 12 to actually need a 36 band. Come over to the bra threads grin

<bangs head on desk>

But it depends on your frame. Height. Shape. Where you carry excess weight etc etc.

Buy some 12 clothes. Invite a fit tall, broad shouldered long legged woman with a pear shaped bum to try them on.
And a petite short woman with a gymnast build who is carrying a spare tyre round her middle.

They might fit or they might not. The tall woman is fit and lean but her wide hips and shoulders mean she can't get the clothes on. The short woman fits them but only because her middle is wide and the top is a bit loose.

One is carrying too much weight for her frame and the other isn't.

One feels heavy at size 12 and the other is a 12/14.

It's not dress size, it's silhouette.

DeathByTray Sun 01-Sep-13 17:19:36

What Trucks said.

It also depends on whether you are toned or not. I have the same hip size as Beyonce. I do not look like Beyonce in a leotard. grin

Snatchoo Sun 01-Sep-13 17:28:35

I'm only 5ft 4.5, and although I'm not a size twelve now, I was as a teen!

When I got down to 9 stone 3lbs, I started to look really really thin, and was a size 8 waist. I have always had big boobs and biggish hips though so till had to wear a size 12! I'm not big-boned really, although I think I am heavy boned as even at closing on 12 stone I was still a size 12.

A friend of mine is much more athletic in body shape - straight up and down, gorgeous slim legs. Small boobs and wide shoulders though. She was always a stone lighter than me but in the same size clothes.

I still cannot really fathom how a grown woman of my height can weigh less than 9 stone though!

ceeci Sun 01-Sep-13 17:33:06

Picardythird, people could easily be fat if they were a 12, it would depend on how much muscle they had, a size 6 person could be 'skinny fat'....they would look slim while dressed but could be all flabby underneath their clothes, skinny people can be classed as normal weight but metabolically obese and can be very unhealthy.
If someone is flabby as a size 6/8/10/12 or whatever then of course they might feel fat and I don't think it's anything to do with a false perception of feeling fat, it would be because their bodies actually do have a lot of obvious fat on them and no muscle tone.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 01-Sep-13 17:38:27

Trucks

I agree. It's been said so many times on this thread but some are being wilfully obtuse.

MrsOakenshield Sun 01-Sep-13 17:38:43

I'm 5'2" and very small framed and am currently a size 12 - I should be an 8 really, I'm definitely carrying far too much fat around my middle. I still look fairly small, but I know I'm not the size I should be, in terms of health.

NuggetofPurestGreen Sun 01-Sep-13 17:54:24

Because Snatchoo they might have a smaller frame tmd different shape than you. I'm an inch taller than you and at 9 stone 3 I still had a 33 inch waist and was a large size 10. I could definitely go under 9 stone and still not be too skinny and be within healthy BMI. Similarly my sister is your height and looks perfectly fine at 8.5 stone. Any less and she starts looking gaunt but 8.5 to 9 stone and she's fine.

As had been said many times on the thread it all depends on your frame size and body shape.

ceeci Sun 01-Sep-13 17:56:31

I'm less than 9 stone and i'm 5ft 8 and I don't look too skinny. It's just my build.

Metalgoddess Sun 01-Sep-13 19:11:57

apart from pin up girl and usuallyright (maybe others I have missed) you are all a disgrace to women. How anyone can think a size 12 is heavy, chubby etc is beyond me and shows a very skewed perception of health and body types. This is a terrible thread and I urge mumsnet moderators to delete it before some poor impressionable teenage girl reads it and believes very wrongly that she is fat. We are all different and ALL body types should be accepted without derogatory comments. Utterly disgusting comments from some people.

BlingBang Sun 01-Sep-13 19:12:28

I'm 5ft 6 and went 9stone or just below after my first child. Looked awful, way too gaunt for me as I probably have a naturally more athletic build. Best at about 9.5 stone and size 10 or 11ish. Now a flabbier size 12 and about 10.5 stone and don't feel slim at all. Felt huge when I was 14 edging into a 16. It's way more complicated than just saying anyone a size 12 is slim or a healthy size.

And I'm a 38 bra size, what's with the bra size thing?

BlingBang Sun 01-Sep-13 19:14:14

Metalgoddess - are we reading the same thread - disagree entirely. Only folk making blanket statements lie a size 12 is slim sound deluded.

Metalgoddess Sun 01-Sep-13 19:17:05

We are reading the same thread, size 12 is slim generally and anyone thinking otherwise has problems and is deluded. Shame on you, disgusting. Are you all teaching your daughters to be under size 12 too?

BlingBang Sun 01-Sep-13 19:18:12

Also, I usually shop in the likes of Next, M&S, Wallis, Principles and usually a size 12. Went not whistles recently and their sizes are huge. The 12s seemed easily a 14 compared to the others. Wouldn't even try and get I to 12 jeans in top shop or warehouse.

BlingBang Sun 01-Sep-13 19:19:09

And you sound a bit dim.

Metalgoddess Sun 01-Sep-13 19:19:49

Why would that be BlingBang?

hettienne Sun 01-Sep-13 19:21:11

Size 12 isn't slim if you are short and overweight though Metalgoddess! It might be slim if you are average height, it might be underweight if you are very tall.

Oh God, how many times?
Nobody is saying all size 12 women are heavy/fat.
Endless people are pointing out that ^it is possible to be size 12 and to be carrying excess weight/be heavy'.

It's to do with your frame/ height/ build/ where you carry excess weight - a five foot small framed woman with a big spare tyre could easily be heavy and overweight for her frame and fit a 12.

Why oh why oh bloody why can't some people see the reasonableness of this?

Size 12 is a clothes size.
The body shape of the person inside the clothes can be unhealthy and yes, carrying unhealthy excess fat.
Clothes size is not a definition of health or slimness.
Gah.

MrsOakenshield Sun 01-Sep-13 19:23:18

I think the thread has shown, quite clearly, that it depends, and that on some women size 12 is a perfectly healthy size, and on others, like myself, it isn't. I don't see anything wrong with being aware of the health issues surrounding being overweight.

Talkinpeace Sun 01-Sep-13 19:25:15

ALL body types should be accepted without derogatory comments
unless by speaking up you are saving that person from further long term damage to their health (thin or fat)

size 12 is slim generally
that depends entirely on which brand of size 12 and from which decade
more often than not size 12 correlates to a heavier than healthy BMI

Are you all teaching your daughters to be under size 12 too
too right
DD is a size 8-10 and looks great. She has scrawny friends and chubby friends. She knows that the ideal size is fit and reasonably lean.

BlingBang Sun 01-Sep-13 19:26:42

Dim and rude as you obviously can't grasp the concept that shorter women (and others) can be carrying a lot of flab and still be a 12 and calling posters who discussing this shameful and disgusting is rather rude. Plus it depends where you shop - a 12 now is not what we knew 12 20 years ago to be.

Metalgoddess Sun 01-Sep-13 19:27:08

I give up, I'm not saying anymore on this thread, kiss my big, fat size 12 arse goodbye xxx

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 01-Sep-13 19:30:02

Metal are you being deliberately dim?

And no, I'll be teaching my future daughters and sons the finer points of having a healthy diet,exercising and knowing what size is right for them. HTH

WorraLiberty Sun 01-Sep-13 19:31:18

I give up, I'm not saying anymore on this thread, kiss my big, fat size 12 arse goodbye xxx

Thank god for that

Now this thread can go back to the normal, sensible posts without the amateur dramatics.

<flings self on floor, mascara running down face and drums heels>

Noooooooo! Won't someone think of the children?

IcedCoffeeQueen Sun 01-Sep-13 19:38:17

Im 5'6 and at a todays 12 im fat, I've spent most of my adult life at a 12 and finally managed to get down to a 10 I still have plenty fat to lose around my stomach, I weigh 8s 10 which is not particularly heavy but carry all my fat on my bum and lower tummy. I measure 27" around my narrowest waist under my ribs and 36" around my hips but the muffin top area between measures 35" and this is the fatty bit I need gone I can hold handfuls of it, I recently went down to 8 stone 3 and measured an inch in each area more than I do now 6 pounds heavier because im now working out and toning im slowly getting results.

I have pictures of me in underwear (my progress pics) at a 12 and im obviously very fat around the middle with the beginnings of a double chin. A friend of mine is a 12 and taller and looks great much leaner and solid looking.

Another friend is 5'2 and a size 6 she weights little over 7 stone I have known her all my life and she has always been petite and perfectly in proportion, I cant imagine any bigger on her tiny frame, she doesn't look at all gaunt we have always joked about her cherub cheeks, she has curves and boobs and is just meant to be small, I think weight is very individual we are not all made up the same

RussiansOnTheSpree Sun 01-Sep-13 19:38:26

metal I'm not teaching my DDs to be anything. DD1 is a size 6, she's 15. She's 5'1". She's small and compact, with muscular legs, not skinny ones. Her BF is about 5'7" and a size 10 and looks really skinny and willowy, because of her height.

BlingBang Sun 01-Sep-13 19:43:25

Icedcoffeequeen - wow aren't we all different. just measured my waist and hips because of this thread as had no idea what I was.

I'm 5 ft 6 too but weigh over 10 stone, have 34 waist and 40 hips and am also a size 12 who needs to lose weight and tone up.

BsshBossh Sun 01-Sep-13 19:46:09

Trucks I'll join you in flinging self dramatically to floor.

BlingBang Sun 01-Sep-13 19:46:14

Icedcoffequeen - you sound quite light for your height and quite slim everywhere other then your middle. You doing anything to concentrate on that area?

UseHerName Sun 01-Sep-13 19:47:42

woah! what's been going on here?! I thought this was a thread to discuss differences in the female body, not to degenerate each other!?

by the way I nipped into M&S today and picked myself up a pair of size ten jeans, which nipped Saturday's jean-shopping misery in the bud grin

IcedCoffeeQueen Sun 01-Sep-13 19:49:00

yep, ive just looked at my chart from when I started losing the recent weight, I was 10 stone 4 which is where id averaged for about 7 years, my upper waist was 30" my lower muffin top waist was 38" and my hips were 39" I wore a 12 mostly pushing a 14 sometimes but refused to buy that size and frequently left dressing rooms upset

Im pretty happy with my narrow waist and hip measurements just need to lose the fat in the middle!

IcedCoffeeQueen Sun 01-Sep-13 19:50:53

just seen your other post, im focusing on toning now and ignoring the scales, im doing 30 day shred (on day 26 tomorrow) and come down an inch in each area since starting im hoping the fatty middle bit will keep burning away

BlingBang Sun 01-Sep-13 19:57:45

Started the 30 day shred, Loved it. Didn't notice a difference in weight but only got to day 16 and really felt diffent and looser in clothing. She also does a tummy/ abs work out DVD - think it's also on youtube.

Six week six pack is a good Shred follow up and is HIIT with focus on core. Am on day 3 after completing Shred last week and its awesome.
First level on YouTube.

Talkinpeace Sun 01-Sep-13 20:05:07

Over the summer holidays my waist increases by two to three inches even if I gain no weight at all.
As soon as I go back to the gym in term time my muscles get back in tone and my tummy flattens out again.
I like being dense.

IcedCoffeeQueen Sun 01-Sep-13 20:07:22

Im enjoying the shred ive taken pics throughout day 1,15,21 and can see a difference I can see upper abs attempting to make themselves known and my lower tummy has little lines going down at either side, sadly these are only noticeable first thing in the morning by breakfast bloat has taken over, I can easily gain a couple of inches throughout the day in bloat which doesn't help! ive looked into 6 week 6 pack and will definitely be getting it, im going to do ripped in 30 next as ive bought it, what is HIIT?
Well done on completing shred trucks, I will finish on friday grin

AnyoneButLulu Sun 01-Sep-13 20:07:50

Most importantly Bling, have you had a bra intervention?!!! Because a size 38 sounds wrong for the rest of your measurements.

Well done iced!
I went low carb/primal and lost 6 inches of bloat from waist shredding but still have tum...6 week 6 pack is already making me super aware of holding my core instead of slouching about!

HIIT is high intensity interval training

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-intensity_interval_training

Much more efficient than being a cardio slave!

tanukiton Sun 01-Sep-13 20:13:32

My dancer friend weighs more than me but is rock solid lean muscle. I on the other hand am wobbling lard. if my weight was more, and muscle, I would be very, very happy. I wobble in a 12.
For me it is not about weight but tone. bMI is bollocks people, dress size is bollocks. you need to get on one of those electric fat measurers. You would be surprised.

BlingBang Sun 01-Sep-13 20:14:42

I've a broad back and small boobs for my size and height. Usually buy a 38B, sometimes a 36B. Don't need great support bras as they are the only thing that is still quite pert!

AnyoneButLulu Sun 01-Sep-13 20:17:35

But what's your actual underboob measurement Bling?

BlingBang Sun 01-Sep-13 20:20:17

Husband is doing Insanity - looks similar to the Shred.

ouryve Sun 01-Sep-13 20:21:51

PiddlingWeather Sun 01-Sep-13 15:48:24

OK I've read most of the thread and still haven't got a definitive answer

I'm 5'6, size 12, 36 C boobs, broad shoulders and long legs, eat healthily, don't smoke, rarely drink and exercise, though I'm not exactly toned or anything.

Am I fat?

____________________________________

Unlikely, but I suspect your bra doesn't fit properly. I bet you're no bigger than a 32 back and really a DD or E cup. DH is a 36C.

IcedCoffeeQueen Sun 01-Sep-13 20:22:07

Thanks, I find Jillian Michaels really motivating I cant wait to see what results I get from ripped, 6 inches of bloat wow! bloat is definitely my enemy I have IBS which probably makes it worse, my diet is the main thing that's still lacking if im honest, ive cut out junk, and snacking and made some switches like white to brown bread, coffee to water etc but my evening meals are the same as before, its not easy to eat super healthy with a fussy husband, fussy toddler and a ds with sensory issues who gags at anything resembling a vegetable! I will definitely need to work on my diet though

ah I have a davina dvd that is high intensity (davina intense) I try to do that 1-2 a week on top of Jillians

Talkinpeace Sun 01-Sep-13 20:25:16

ouryve
Clothes size is meaningless.
Height, weight, waist size, wrist size, body fat
only then can you tell whether you are carrying too much weight for YOU
and whether it is being carried in unhealthy places (tummy bad, boobs fine)

BlingBang Sun 01-Sep-13 20:25:40

Right, just tried measuring under my boobs. Looks like around 33. Don't have a proper measuring tape, got bits of string for my waist, hips and boobs now!

hettienne Sun 01-Sep-13 20:28:53

I bet you're really a 32E or something grin

I'm 30 under boobs, and leaning forward am 35 around my boobs = 30DD. And that's actually quite small boobs!

Talkinpeace Sun 01-Sep-13 20:34:04

I do not know my cup size, but DD did give me one of her bikinis as "you are more flat chested than I am" [hmmm]

SorrelForbes Sun 01-Sep-13 20:35:47

BlingBang You almost certainly need a 32 band bra but in a bigger cup.

If you scoop, as per the guide, do you get overspill?

BlingBang Sun 01-Sep-13 20:36:52

Just know that a 38 or 36 B looks ok and is comfortable. Will try a 32E next time for a laugh!

AnyoneButLulu Sun 01-Sep-13 20:37:55

Excellent! My very first bra intervention! grin Some actual good has finally come of this singularly unedifying thread.

Go and find a bra thread on S&B, Bling, and the nice ladies will get you out of that horrible ill-fitting M&S monstrosity and into a flattering 32D or similar.

SorrelForbes Sun 01-Sep-13 20:38:04

Well, I wouldn't just try an 32E as a random size grin! What's your leaning over measurement?

hettienne Sun 01-Sep-13 20:38:30

What is your measurement round your breasts (leaning forward so they dangle)?

If you are only 33 round your chest, then a you can definitely get a better fit than a band that is 3-5 inches too big.

AnyoneButLulu Sun 01-Sep-13 20:44:29

Oh, Sorrel's here already. No need to find an S&B thread then, she'll sort you out.

Is there a special alarm that rings in the BoobCave that summons you wherever there is a woman in a crap bra? Or is it a bra-shaped light in the sky?

BlingBang Sun 01-Sep-13 20:47:15

Right! Looks like I'm about 32 underboob and about 37 leaning over on the boobs. One boob is smaller than the other which is another thing, maybe whole cup size.

Butwilliseeyouagain Sun 01-Sep-13 20:47:41

I think a lot of people are deluded about what constitutes a healthy weight for one's height. I keep hearing 'Size 16 isn't fat, it's the average size!' and 'Marilyn Monroe was a size 16!' People's capacity to delude themselves is just about infinite. Marilyn Monroe was a size 10 at most in today's money. And I'm sorry but if the average woman is a size 16 and 5 foot 3 or whatever it is, then the average woman is fat. Not curvy, not a 'real woman', fat.

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 20:48:29

Who asked you to save people from their selves Talkin?-how fucking patronising.Bad news about your taxes though-you dont get a choice what they are spent on so you will have to continue paying into the nhs for all us size 12 plus ladies who are such a drain on it.

SorrelForbes Sun 01-Sep-13 20:51:25

Boob cave grin. No, I'm afraid I am just very very bossy keen to help.

BlingBang Try a 32D/DD (and remember to scoop)

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 20:51:30

Who asked you to save people from their selves Talkin?-how fucking patronising.Bad news about your taxes though-you dont get a choice what they are spent on so you will have to continue paying into the nhs for all us size 12 plus ladies who are such a drain on it.

IcedCoffeeQueen Sun 01-Sep-13 20:54:00

have to agree the bra experts are fab! I was wearing a 34-36 back even though my under bust is 30" i always added the 4-5 inches on as per shop advice, I couldn't get a good fitting 30 back though so went with a 32DD and the difference was outstanding and that's probably still too big!
I measure 29 under now and my bra is riding up and gaping so may have to assess again!

Calm down dear.

(That was at PinUpGirl)

BlingBang Sun 01-Sep-13 20:56:19

But my 36B looks and feels good (wanders off shaking head and muttering)!

Talkinpeace Sun 01-Sep-13 20:56:39

Note to self : before buying new bras (as current ones are shot) must take advice from the clever helpful posters !

SorrelForbes Sun 01-Sep-13 20:59:20

BlingBang Have a scoop, go on! The thing is that a 36B is the same cup volume as a 32D so you're not that far out cup wise. However, you'd get more support from a 32 back and the proportions would be better for your shape/size.

Pinupgirl Sun 01-Sep-13 21:00:39

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

digerd Sun 01-Sep-13 21:02:44

The sizes have become much more generous than in the 60s.
size 10 was bust 32" waist 22" hips 34". Size 12 was bust 34", waist 24", hips 36".

Now my waist is 29", bust 36" and hips 36" and am a size 8 and 5'2" Was an old size 10. < hmm waist increased by 7 ", but bust 4" and hips only 2"confused

BlingBang Sun 01-Sep-13 21:10:13

Right, trying to scoop but not sure I'm doing it right as there doesn't seem to by much spare fleshy bits. Will try a 32EE though next time as I'm curious.

digerd Sun 01-Sep-13 21:12:22

Dr said my BMI is 20, but I have lost a lot of muscle as I am older and the bit of flesh I have is wibbly-wobbly. Much preferred my youthful muscular and firm fleshed body at 7stone 9.sad < was 7stone 10 at drs, but still got my flabby midriff bulge - so this BMI thing is hmm as far as I'm concerned>
Have to fatten myself up he said. So just going to eat another piece of chocolate cake grin

PiddlingWeather Sun 01-Sep-13 21:17:04

Oh I'm intrigues by my bra wrongness now.

I have a big broad ribcage and shoulders the school rugby captain would be proud of, does that back a difference?

Lead to to the light!

*pokes at boobs in confused manner*

PiddlingWeather Sun 01-Sep-13 21:17:21

*make a difference, not back a difference

BlingBang Sun 01-Sep-13 21:24:28

This thread has given me a bit of a kick up the bum though. Bugger dress size but I've just measured my waist and hips for the first time in years and it's not gr