To ask for advice, cannot believe what my friend has just done.(87 Posts)
I am asking here because it is anonymous and I know the advice will be honest and frank!
My friend J has just moved house way from an abusive exH and in a new town. The house she has gone into was occupied by a tenant who has built up massive debts. My friend knows this as she is answering doors to bailiffs almost daily and having to show her tenancy agreement to prove that she isn't the debtor. My friend gets over anxious about things and has been opening post to keep on top of it and contacting companies to point out that the other tenant has moved.
My friend doesn't always think things through, she is agoraphobic with an anxiety and panic disorder plus severe depression for which she is having weekly psychotherapy. This move was supposed to be positive and on the whole it has been.
However, she came to see me in the past 24 hours with her current partner. While he was off seeing relative she told me that she had opened another letter which had all the previous tenant's bank details on so.......had been online and used them to buy an expensive mobile phone.
I have advised her that:
* this is illegal (she is fully aware of this)
* that if this comes to light she would be in serious trouble (she seems too confident that it won't come to light).
*that what she has done is wrong (she honestly doesn't seem to care ).
It doesn't help that one of her new neighbours apparently grows and sells cannabis and has offered to sell to her when she has tried so hard to come off it. He apparently has "a nice set up in the loft" and "plants growing well in the garden" plus "loads of solid" . The order for the phone took place after she had been smoking some apparently "good quality solid" and I think it has clouded her judgement at that point. I wish she hadn't told me though.
My friend always says that "green" makes her paranoid but that the "solid" just keeps her mellow and relaxed. I don't smoke so I have no idea about cannabis.
Now I am so honest it is untrue, I have never knowingly stolen anything (apart from a time when I discovered a pair of earrings in my shopping which were not on the receipt...even then I went back and paid for them).
All this just sits uncomfortably with me but I don't know what else I can say or do. I don't feel I can report this....not given all my friend's mental health issues but I want her to decline the phone when it arrives and return it.
Or does not reporting it make me awful?
I cant do it though, she is fragile at the best and I have seen her in the depths of despair and suicidal over the past few weeks. I don't think she is thinking straight so any psychiatric nurses/doctors/experienced folk welcome with advice.
I feel my only options are to report (cant do it) or ignore and hope for the best. ....or keep advising her to return the phone immediately hich is my preferred option.
My friend feels that as the previous tenant is ignoring all mail and still apparently using the address to set up car insurances etc that nothing can be proved.
Feel really upset that she has done this but cant tell anyone...only people here and ask advice.
She is committing theft and fraud. People go to jail for a lot less.
I'd really struggle to not report this. Once she gets the phone and realises how easy it was, she will move onto other things. Do you really think she bought the phone and then threw away the bank details? Me neither.
You're not doing her any favours by enabling her behaviour. Depression is no excuse for being a criminal.
What a mess.
How long have you been friends with her and what is it that bonds you as friends because after reading the above it's difficult to see why.
She is clearly going through a tough time and has issues but if she doesn't receive help from professionals then I truly fear for her future.
Her mindset about not caring that it was theft isn't good either. I think at this point I would question the friendship and perhaps slowly detach.
If I wasn't prepared to report, I'd have to cut all ties. I could not be friends with someone like this. Harsh, I know, but I wouldn't be able to look them in the eye.
She shouldn't open the previous tenant's post, I believe it's illegal. Just write 'not at this address, return to sender' and put them back in the post. I have to do this too, as despite living where I do for the past 4 years I still get post for the previous tenants.
She needs to ring and cancel the phone.
Could you report the drug-growing neighbour, anonymously if need be?
Well call me cold-hearted but I'd probably not report it but cut contact with her.
I know you said that she's smoking cannabis to calm herself and that's why she has ordered a phone fraudulently, but being "too confident that it won't come to light" doesn't really go with having an anxiety and panic disorder.
Maybe she'll get an attack of anxiety and send it back of her own accord?
The trouble is, if she gets away with this, then it is a slippery slope.
I would report the neighbour for starters.
Your friend is a drug smoking, theiving criminal.
Her actions are dispicable.
Yes I feel I have to slowly detach too. Tbh hat ties me is that we had children in the same class and a shared sense of humour. I did support her emotionally quite a lot when she went into a refuge and I think she has leant on me quite a bit. I don't mind this as supporting someone in need is a good thing. I have also done a lot of work on my own issues in the past two years and recognise myself as a "rescuer" if that makes sense. Of course I cannot "rescue" her from her life (which has honestly been horrific) and I mustn't enable her either.
She has moved 30 miles away from here and I suspect our friendship will phase out beyond a quick "how are you" call now and then.
You sound complete opposites and have obviously grown apart.
Do not feel responsible for her. She is responsible for her own actions just watch she doesn't drag you down with her.
She has now moved 30 miles away from here so I suspect we will drift apart a bit. I will slowly detach apart from an occasional phone call.
No she wont drag me down with her, I have too many strong ideals for that.
I am sad though because she is not the person I thought she was. I have know her four years and thought I knew her.
She sounds self destructive and I really don't think there's a lot you can do about that. I agree with others who say that she will probably continue to steal and will, quite rightly, get into huge trouble.
I would distance yourself.
There is not a hope in hell that this will not be detected.
I'd distance myself.
I wouldn't report but i would end the friendship.
It's sad when you have a friend and the friendship changes. I have been in a simlar situation and over the past year have become detatched from three long term friends. Maybe we'll drift back into each other's lives in the future but for now we have nothing in common and it's hard work to even converse.
She is a rotten picker- of men, of other choices around her life- this is just one act in a long chain of self destructive behaviour. I think she will take more drugs and quite likely steal more too, now she has this opportunity.
It's not a very big crime so in itself I am not sure it merits reporting, though like you I would never do it. But the police might not prosecute for something like that. And in her situation, normal standards of morality, while they ought to apply, seem very distant.
So perhaps we have to ask- Would being caught now help her access more intervention? Or would it make things worse? Do you have the expertise to know the answer to this, or do you have to pass this on to others to make the decision? By others, I don't mean MN because unless we are lucky, there won't be a poster with professional knowledge here today.
Your options are- you could tell her mum or sister, assuming she has a supportive family.
You could tell her social worker, about both the theft and the drug use, or social services generally if you don't know who her social worker is.
Or you can ring crime stoppers about either the drug use or the theft.
I would go for social services myself.
I think reporting her is a step too far (yeah yeah wah wah about the phone, but the former tenant is clearly a crook too and the mobile phone companies can eat the loss) but distancing yourself is a good move.
Hmm...no SW at the moment but I could express concern about her DD being exposed to all this. My friend does worry about her DD and Young Carers have just taken her on as when my friend is very low then her child does a lot of care.
Maybe I can go to young carers which is run by Social Services. I really don't have the expertise to know what else but I could speak to her psychotherapist....possibly. I spoke to her a few weeks ago as my friend was suicidal and I was concerned for her DD.
Actually you are ALL right here, I need to detach as perhaps I have become over involved with it all. My friend doesn't have a supportive Mum or anyone else sadly...she is very much on her own and I feel for her about this as I know how supportive my family have always been for me.
I am fortunate.
Anyway....she is now living 30 miles away.
I can't be friends with someone who doesn't have the same values as me. If you feel reporting it is a step too far, just distance yourself from her completely. Anyone who thinks this behaviour "ok" is not a decent friend and will no doubt let you down badly in future. If she's capable of this she's capable of a whole load of other criminal behaviour.
Just out of interest, wouldn't she be easy to trace if she ordered the phone from her own PC? The account holder would notice the missing money, alert the bank & surely the bank would follow up on recent transactions & find the phone order complete with her name & address as buyer.
Also as an aside, whenever I order online I have to enter the security code on the back of the card (which wouldn't be shown on statements) & there's sometimes another passworded layer of security. Has she paid outright using the number on the card & expiry date, or set up a DD with the account number & sort code.
Sounds very very easily traceable to me.
I would report to SS via young carers and make sure they keep her DC on their radar. Sadly with her profile there has to be a significant risk she will hook up with another abusive man, who may also be abusive to her DC. Her drug use and theft are going to introduce some unreliable characters to the family....
Surely when the former tenant sees a large bill, he'll query it & the phone company will report that the phone has been delivered to the house & it'll all be reported to the police soon enough anyway, without you having to do it?
I'd steer well clear
Se could potentially be in a lot of trouble if found out so I guess you need to decide if you want to support her through it all when and if it happens.
Your friend is a drug smoking, theiving criminal.
Her actions are dispicable.
Be aware, that if this comes to light some other way, and she mentions to the police that she told you about it, they will still track you down for a statement.
You are now party to theft. Nice one "friend"! Personally I would report it. And the cannabis farm, too. Next, I would try to get a better class of friend. She is a nightmare.
Honestly if you still care about her I'd report her, because if she get's away with it this time she'll just continue on with it. She'll be caught anyway in the end but by then she may well be looking at serious jail time, whereas if she's caught now it won't completely fuck up her life.
On the other hand I'd think it completely understandable if you just wanted to cut her off and be done with the drama. She sounds like the kind of person who's always going to find herself in trouble and she clearly doesn't care about breaking the law, so she may well be a lost cause whatever you do.
BTW, even if she returned the phone/cancelled the order, she's still broken the law. Morally, the right thing to do would be to return, but from a legal standpoint the damage is already done.
please tell me she is not in custody of a child
SolidGoldBrass. "The mobile phone companies can take a loss"
What a great attitude. Because it is not a crime against a person no one suffers. Except, of course, the end customer with higher prices and higher insurance costs, and the shareholder.
Theft is not acceptable at all. Simple as.
She's a skank. Why would you want a 'friend' like that? Get rid.
We have been through a lot together but yes, our values are completely different. I have not had the mental health issues she has had in her time or the abuse she suffered as a child.
The cannabis farm person has a very disabled relative whom he cares for (very physically disabled) and who gets more pain relief from the cannabis than from Morphine....does that sound as though it could be correct?
Otherwise I would have no qualms about reporting the address....but the disabled relative lives there.
Anyway, I have worked off a lot of the annoyance and anger in the garden and the lawn is now immaculate. Going to ring Young Carers I think....will do it after I have had time to think about what to say.
Yes my friend has a child who is lovely and very well cared for (believe it or not), her child is also one of the most sensible children I have ever met.......too sensible maybe because of what she has witnessed in her young life.
Just read she has a child staying there. You need to put the child's welfare before any loyalty to your friend and phone social services. She is not fit to be a parent
Just to add in response to your last post I have bipolar and was severely abused as a child. However I don't smoke pot or steal phones. Sounds like you are making excuses for her
I'd talk to her and get her to cancel the phone and explain that you will have no choice but to report it if she doesn't.
Brilliant post Katy! I second that
I don't want to make excuses for her, that is an insult to all of us who have been through crappy childhoods and or had mental health issues...I take the point of it not excusing things.
Yes if I re-read my OP I seem to be doing just that but I was so shocked and trying to understand/make some sense of it.
Thank you Arnie Unfortunately it might not be as simple as that for the OP but I hope she does manage to do it.
Just keep your beak out and steer clear from now on.
She'll have to sort herself out if/when the shit hits the fan.
There's no need for you to report anything. It will only make you feel guilty. You've given her good advice. She's an adult and will make her own decisions.
Smoking a joint on an evening doesn't make her a shit parent. Same as having a couple glasses of wine doesn't make a shit parent.
Leave the neighbours out of it. The have their own reasons for using the stuff.
Yes - people do get relief from various medical conditions using cannabis and I think it should be legalised for this use (I don't want to get into a debate about any of that). So, I don't blame him for growing enough for his ill relative BUT that's not what/all he's doing You don't need a nice set up in the loft and loads of plants in the garden to supply one ill relative and you wouldn't be supplying or telling your neighbours about it if that was what you were doing.
I wouldn't report him though - he's small fry.
If her DD is well looked after, I would just disengage from the friendship.
Do you really think she has done this ir is just trying to boast about it? Banks don't send letters containing all details necessary to make online purchases, eg with full card numbers + security codes or login/passwords. If she has, it would be very easily detectable, as others have pointed out.
She will get caught, the phone would be delivered to her address and have to be signed for first, I would say that she has most probably taken out a DD to pay for it as there is way too much security when paying via debit/credit card. So her actions are totally traceable.
TBH honest I would not communicate with her again at all.
Feel for you op, hard situation to be stuck in. Sad that now shes dragged you into it.
If you think shes unwell and not acting herself any health professional you could speak to?
Phone companies can make a loss? Great example to give if you have kids! You can steal from them it doesn't matter, not sure they or the police will see it like that
She is almost inevitably going to get busted over the phone. Her best bet might be to refuse delivery of it when it turns up & hope it gets RTS & disappears into the mess of previous tenant's financial chaos.
She's got to stop opening mail not addressed to her. We bought a house previously in multiple occupancy & had years of debt collection letters. You just RTS, the agencies eventually ring you & you explain that no, you aren't Mr Michael Mouse or Mr Randy Therampant & have no idea of their current whereabouts. They're used to it.
I'd talk to her and get her to cancel the phone and explain that you will have no choice but to report it if she doesn't.
And, as someone whose card has been fraudulently used by others to buy stuff - it's a lot of hassle for the card holder to sort out, even if she doesn't care about phone companies - but the bank will investigate and the chances of her not getting caught are very low.
Given the amount of ripping off customers, exploiting their staff and tax avoidance most mobile phone companies go in for, yes I think the fuckers can eat the loss in this case. I'm not advocating everyone to go out and steal a phone, but I'm more morally happy with the phone company taking a loss than with an individual being encouraged to grass up a vulnerable (if chaotic) friend.
Jake it sounds plausible but if Neighbour has a Farm I.highly doubt its for the Disabled Relatives Personal use Only. Some pay you between 2 to 3 grand to let them use your loft for growing. I know shes your friend but I would be seriously considering reporting it. The Phone. Theft obtained by Deception off the top of my head is the first thing I can think of regarding the stolen identity. It might be the short sharp shock she needs to reign in. Plus if shes 30miles away from you now she will probably just think its a neighbour. ~
^ second what Katy said actually..that sounds reasonable if you think she will listen to you ~
She does listen to me and will take on board what I have said...even if she has given me a lot of bravado in replies. I hope I have planted the seed for her to think about things and to get a grip.
The bank details didn't include the card details etc, just account and sort code. That appears to have been enough for her to do this.
She is banking upon the previous tenant's affairs being in such a mess that it won't be noticed. Bailiffs are still calling almost daily so definitely a mess.
I have slept on it and am going to ring her today to point out that she is traceable and that if she is caught then her lovely fresh start will turn into a nightmare.
I DO want to keep me beak out (as someone advised on this thread) but I feel she has brought me into this and despite everything I am fond of her.
The stuff she has done in the past few days has disappointed me but doesn't take away from her kind personality. She isn't thinking straight and I might talk to her psychotherapist. I wont do that without talking to her first because I am honest with her and have been so far.
As for the neighbour......well he is growing the stuff in his garden, in the loft and producing God knows how much. There are children in that house too although how much they know of the growing I don't know.
Anonymous tip off about the weed and hopefully the sight of police vans outside her neighbours house might frighten her into cancelling the phone.
OP - the problem lies in that you are now aware, which makes you as culpable as she in the eyes of the law.
I would say to her that she has placed your family at risk and that you cannot allow so you have no choice. She either cancels the phone now (with you as a witness) or you will be reporting her for identity theft.
Also, she has kids you say, and she left an abusive ex. Is the ex the children's father? If so ask her how she would feel about her children being left with the abusive ex if she is caught and imprisoned? Maybe concern and guilt could get through to her?
Good ideas Lady, yes I need to be specific about what this could mean in consequences.
Thing is that when I moved in here I was in a similar position regarding bailiffs etc as the previous tenant at MY address was in a financial mess. Not ever in a million years would it have occurred to me to do anything like this. I just packaged up all the mail, marked it RTS and reposted it.
I am so disappointed in her.
I think you should report the neighbour to be honest, he's selling it, and doesn't need to grow that much for one relative.
All your friend needs to do is send the letters back return to sender.
I am not sure of the neighbour's actual house number tbh. If all the houses in that bit are odd then I can work it out but it could just go in numerical order. Might need to wait until I go back there so I can see.
I am leaning towards reporting the neighbour and just telling my friend that I will report her regarding the phone if she doesn't just immediately return it. Going to message her this morning.....will tell her that it is to keep her safe.
Oh my. What a mess. Your friend is making some very poor choices isn't she?
Does she have DC? If so i think you have a responsibility to do something. Can you talk to her, tell her you are worried about the choices she is making?
If she doesn't have children, well, i'd be wondering whether to walk away and withdraw from this friendship. It worries me that someone could so quickly make a decision to defraud the previous tenant of her property and smoke cannabis when she has an anxiety disorder. Yes, she might have some issues but I don't think she really wants to make her situation better at the moment. She sounds very chaotic to me.
Have you got DC?
Going to message her this morning.....will tell her that it is to keep her safe
Sorry xpost. You sound like a very good friend o.p. I am wondering whether she'll thank you for it though.
Message her... I honestly think that sometimes it's better to speak to people.
I too think you sound like a really good friend but I would probably start to distance myself from this person.
I am a mental health nurse and the way you have described her lack of concern about committing a crime even the fact that she did it in the first place does not fit with someone who has an anxiety disorder.
I think anonymously reporting the neighbour growing the weed may be a short term fix but ultimately it sounds as if you and your friend have very different values and maybe it's time to see a bit less of her.
I am not sure of the neighbour's actual house number tbh. If all the houses in that bit are odd then I can work it out but it could just go in numerical order. Might need to wait until I go back there so I can see
Can't the police tell using IR lights because of the lights needed to grow it? Or have I been watching too much tv?
Oh my god, what a mess.
I'd cut contact, but I probably wouldn't report it. Maybe I would. I'd be tempted.
Cut contact with this woman, she is a mess.
Yes, started to message her and you are right..it doesn't feel right. Going to give her a ring.
Her anxiety disorder is when she is out in public, she is severely agoraphobic and can really only get out when she is accompanied.
She has one child who is the same age as mine (I only have one too).
I know it doesn't come across here but she is generally a very nice person with lots of problems. I don't think she is thinking things clearly and I am in despair that one of her new neighbours is a supplier of a choice of cannabis. It is honestly the last thing she needs, she smoked it from age 9 as she was given it by her step father and his friends while they did unspeakable things to her . Her Mum is not supportive and didn't believe her when she finally plucked up the courage to disclose the abuse in her early teens...she has on-going physical and mental health problems as a result of what was done to her. Because I know this I am more inclined to try and support her to do the right thing (return the phone) than to involve the police.
Hell if I had been through all that I might smoke cannabis to relax too...who knows.
Fact is though that she has a choice now....she made a conscious decision to order this phone and needs to do the right thing now and return it.
She doesn''t sound at all equipped to put boundaries around herself and other people OP. If she has been abused as a child this is not surprising.
I hope she listens to you OP, you sound like a really good friend.
Do you thing this new partner might be someone who is bad for her? It sounds like she is on a bit of a downward spiral at the moment.
Big cannabis growing set ups give off a lot of heat and smell. If you sent the police to the right bit of the street they could probably identify the house. People often dangerously bypass their electricity meter (hydroponics are power hungry), so I wouldn't feel safe living next door to one.
I think you should report to SS that you have concerns for her DD. The drug use/theft/return of ex are all very worrying behaviour.
Police then was your hands of the deadbeat
Oops, misread about current partner. If he's letting her do all that, he can't be too great.
Police then was your hands of the deadbeat
Oh my gosh!! I can't believe how harsh that is ^^ NeedaWee
No, not keen on this new partner as he is an abusive and controlling arse. However she now lives 35 miles away from him ....I am so pleased.
I suspect that she and I might drift apart in the future anyway now she is so far away.
New partner can now only get there at weekends as he is in work all week.
Most phones or similar purchases have a statutory cooling-off period, don't they? Perhaps if you could impress upon her just how traceable this transaction will be, she'll cancel it now and might just get away with it. The fear of getting caught will almost certainly be the only thing that'll motivate her to do the right thing.
The bank details didn't include the card details etc, just account and sort code.
Are you sure your friend is telling the truth about getting the phone? These details are ok for setting up a direct debit, but a one off purchase don't you usually need the security code on back of debit card.
Pudcat makes an extremely good point.
It is possible that the bank has sent a new card, the old one may have expired. In which case the bank will have supplied everything the new tenant needs. The laat tenants here didn't change any addresses for years and we got all manner of official bank stuff through for them.
We didn't open it but you can tell from the envelope usually.
Yes, my new card (on an account I thought had been closed, so I wasn't expecting it) was nicked from the post and no one seemed to question stuff going to an entirely different address until I started getting bills for massive amounts I hadn't spent. It was all sorted in the end, but it was partly the bank's fault. Mostly the thief's, but the bank could have done more to prevent it in the first place.
Yeah...don't know about needing card details...she just mentioned bank details. The previous tenant is still using the address it seems but unless a new card has arrived (I hope to God not) then I don't see how she has got through a security check either. Odd that.
I wonder if she has set up a new contract with a phone company using the bank details to set up a direct debit.
The one saving grace is that the previous tenant has CCJ's up to the eyeballs by the sounds of things and I have a feeling that the initial order will go through and then fail when it comes to the credit check.....I can but hope.
Anyway have tried to phone her but no reply. Will ring again later.
She can return the phone within the "cooling off period" allowed for in tbe Distance Selling Regulations act, and might get away with that.
Can you present the phone theft and cannabis as making her life MORE stressful?
If she can't cancel the phone, then she needs to refuse to sign for it, tell the postie that the addressee isn't known at that address (I am assuming it would be in the last tenants name). If this doesn't work, she should immediately phone the supplier & make up some excuse to get it sent back.
If anyone queries it, she can say that she is new tenant, previous ran up huge amounts of debt & she thinks perhaps it was one last ditch attempt by them to get something for nothing (or similar)/they gave wrong address/whatever would get her off the hook.
That way, she (kind of) redeems herself. But I would distance myself too, because if she can do this, she can do anything & she could involve you without you knowing (i.e asking you to look after stuff, but even now, you are involved, aren't you, so she is already trying to drag you down)
Think carefully about social services involvement , it can end up massively ott whilst completely missing the point, you could end up feeling you are the only one to support her through a load of child protection meetings.
If you think the child is ok it's probably best to leave well alone.
I also wouldn't bother reporting the cannabis factory & phone, tbh the police prob wouldn't do anything about either crimes. I have reported drug related stuff and fraud, the first few times I waited thinking something might happen, perhaps a raid, now I realise they know about loads of activity but don't have resources to deal with it all.
Probably nothing will happen about any of this, she will at some point hit a crisis (again) and will get some help. You could be there for her at that point if she asks?
Okay...phew.....the contract was declined so no phone being delivered. Am relieved.
Had a long chat with her and told her that she has had a lovely fresh start and that this was potentially traceable and could cause her more problems.
She DID acknowledge this and says she wont open any more mail or try anything else.
Also told her to be very cautious regarding the cannabis, reminded her how hard she has worked towards coming off it. Felt like her Mum ....but then she doesn't really have one of those.
So crisis is over for now thankfully.
Exhausted now.....was so worried.
Thank crap for that!! I hope she took on board what you said, JB.
Report her to the police.
If the previous tenant is in as much trouble as that - with baliffs at the door - then they are obviously in dire financial straits.
Her ordering that phone may well make them homeless, mean they can't get to work and are sacked or mean they can't eat for the next month. The consequences for this person could be as extreme as suicide.
Report her to the police. Then hopefully this person will be able to at least recover some of their money.
What she's done is disgraceful.
Ooops! Sorry, didn't see that last post.
I would still report the cannabis farm. The scale sounds like its not a personal use set up. Being able to easily buy dope is not going to help your friend as its already had a bad effect on her judgement.
You did really well to talk to her about it - it cannot have been easy. I hope she saw sense. It is sad when people make these terrible calls, but I don't think it makes them evil or worth dropping as a friend - and you can usually get further by being sympathetic and lovely (as you have been) and explaining the consequences clearly than by taking the moral high ground. She sounds like she desperately needs a voice of reason in her life right now.
Of course, if she continues to make more bad judgement calls over the ensuing months, you may have to rethink!!
Well done Jake. Think I would report the cannabis farm to the police anyway.
You must know what number your friend lives at so you just need to say next door to the police.
Thank you, I hope to God this was an aberration.
Although it doesn't come across from my posts here my friend is very kind hearted. She was a real support to me two years ago when my life was very difficult and really helped me. I cant thank her enough for endless cups of tea and a shoulder to cry on. As such I want to be supportive to her and be the voice of reason she needs.
She is just very mixed up as a person and I know her well enough to feel comfortable in saying the things I did. I did it in a supportive way by just reminding her of what she had to lose.
I am just keeping everything crossed that this was an aberration.
I did talk to my Mum who is very sensible, she advised me not to get involve with reporting the cannabis farm etc. I am in two minds because I really think this is the last neighbour my friend needs. The again if she doesn't get it from him then it will come from elsewhere!
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