To expect my local coffee shop to let me in with a pram?

(237 Posts)
Shockingundercrackers Fri 30-Aug-13 12:01:43

Will try to keep this brief. My local coffee shop owner has just refused me entry with a pram (not a massive silver cross call the midwife one, just a bugaboo style thing). He said he was busy (he wasn't, and although its a small place there were only two other customers inside) and that buggies had to be parked outside. I can see the logic of this, but a pram with a 5 week old sleeping baby in it isn't really a buggy is it? Or is it?

I should have remonstrated with the grumpy fecker of course, but it had taken me so long to get said infant out of the house and I was so hungry and tired I thought I might embarrass myself and start blubbing. I beat a hasty retreat.

I've been fuming ever since of course. AIBU?

thebody Fri 30-Aug-13 12:03:08

fire regs?? him being sued if someone tripped over your pram?

Onesleeptillwembley Fri 30-Aug-13 12:04:05

Your pram would probably be bigger than a buggy. Surely you can see that. It's coming up to lunchtime. He will be busy. Get over yourself. YABU.

CookieLady Fri 30-Aug-13 12:07:08

Sorry YABU. I know it's difficult but not all restaurants or coffee shops have space for buggies or prams.

wonderingifiam2013 Fri 30-Aug-13 12:07:25

Sod him and find another coffee shop another day

As for today - treat yourself to a big fat cake and devour it at home over your own coffee smile

everlong Fri 30-Aug-13 12:07:49

I can see your point.

But I can also see his. I go to a cafe locally that is very popular, it's small and not well thought out where the table and chairs are concerned.

Lots of mums go with their prams. Sometimes there can be 4 buggies in their taking up loads of room. Nobody can move, the waitresses struggle with the food. It's crazy.

I always think prams should stay outside tbh.

HandMini Fri 30-Aug-13 12:07:57

Well, I don't know the exact layout of the cafe, but but I don't think he is being U to ask you to leave buggy/pram/whatever outside.

I've seen so many cafes with buggies crammed in, cutting off seats for paying customers, often because precious mummies don't want to budge their babies or sit too far away from them. Not fair for the cafe owner at all.

You have a few options - find another cafe; carry a sling under your pram and put baby in it; get a takeaway coffee and sit in the park; ask if there is any way you can sit in if, eg, you park your pram at the back or in their garden....I think if you offer a solution rather than just stand in the doorway waiting for tables to be moved, cafe owners are happier to help.

WaitMonkey Fri 30-Aug-13 12:08:08

YABU.

usualsuspect Fri 30-Aug-13 12:09:28

If he had limited space and your buggy would block access to tables etc I can see his point.

But it's hard to comment without knowing the lay out of the csfe.

SaucyJack Fri 30-Aug-13 12:11:15

He obviously doesn't want custom from the Yummy Mummy brigade. His prerogative. Take your money elsewhere.

kelda Fri 30-Aug-13 12:20:38

YABU. I had a bike lock for my buggy/pram so I could leave it outside.

Or simpler still, I used a sling.

Floggingmolly Fri 30-Aug-13 12:20:59

A pram with a five week old sleeping baby in it isn't really a buggy , is it?. It will take up the same space no matter what is in it, I'd imagine? confused

BrokenSunglasses Fri 30-Aug-13 12:23:15

YABU.

It's his business and if he doesn't want buggies in there, that's up to him.

Personally, I'd like to see more buggy bans in coffee shops. Any more than one in most places, and it does make things more unpleasant for other customers.

Lethologica Fri 30-Aug-13 12:23:47

Sorry but its another YABU from me.
As long as he was polite then I think he request was fair for a small coffee shop.

hazeyjane Fri 30-Aug-13 12:24:43

Some places are just too small to accomodate buggies/prams etc.

There are a couple of coffee shops that I can't use with ds, because his buggy gets in the way. Fortunately we live in a town with tons of cafes, so we go to those instead (especially Waitrose cafe who are lovely and move the chairs around to accomodate ds's buggy!) Do you have any other coffe shops in town?

It's just the way it is.

Lethologica Fri 30-Aug-13 12:24:47

Top
...his request... Not ...he request..

HoldMeCloserTonyDanza Fri 30-Aug-13 12:25:12

If he wants to turn down your money, good luck to him, that's his lookout.

Go elsewhere and have a lovely big piece of cake smile

NatashaBee Fri 30-Aug-13 12:25:19

I would invest in a sling. There are lots of restaurants/ cafes where you can't get a pram in without inconveniencing people.

SoupDragon Fri 30-Aug-13 12:29:20

I think YABU. I would also invest in a sling and a bike lock.

kali110 Fri 30-Aug-13 12:29:36

Can understand his point. Used to work in coffee shop and prams were a nightmare. People would put them anywhere, in front of fire exits in middle of aises etc nighare trying to get round wiyh food

FrigginRexManningDay Fri 30-Aug-13 12:30:51

I had a bugaboo and they are bulky enough. It would probably be safer to carry hot drinks without having to watch out for wheels and handles too.

YABU.

MrsDeVere Fri 30-Aug-13 12:31:30

It feels horrible to be turned away with a baby. I can understand you being upset.

But most places are just not big enough to accommodate buggies and prams.

My OH uses a mobility scooter and I always have to do a recci before we go into any cafe or shop.

Now that is horrible. If he can't get in, we can't get in. Unless there is a table right near the front and somewhere to park his scooter (its a little one, not one of those massive 4x4 ones).

We had to leave our prams outside when my older DCs were little. I think we have all got out of the habit now because you can take them on buses etc.

Its tricky when they are asleep but thats when you most want to stop and have a coffee.

<gets off fence and buggers off before I get splinters>

JessePinkmansBitch Fri 30-Aug-13 12:32:59

I suppose I can see it from both sides really. Although if he can't fit a pram in his cafe then how can a wheelchair fit in? Wheelchairs are roughly the same width as the average pram aren't they?

VivaLeBeaver Fri 30-Aug-13 12:35:03

When dd was little our local Next wouldn't let prams or wheelchairs in.

expatinscotland Fri 30-Aug-13 12:35:27

YABU

arethereanyleftatall Fri 30-Aug-13 12:41:59

Yabu . His cafe, his rules

AdmiralData Fri 30-Aug-13 12:44:52

YANBU - I wont explain my opinion as it will turn into a rant that makes me look entitled >smile

EvieanneVolvic Fri 30-Aug-13 12:45:33

Admiral you're no fun grin

Shockingundercrackers Fri 30-Aug-13 12:47:10

Pretty unanimous then. For those that recommended a sling.. How do you drink a hot coffee without risking scalding the baby? Not worth it for me personally (am clumsy and not fond of lukewarm coffee which I can get for nowt at home).

Thanks for your replies, it's genuinely interesting to hear what people think. I had my first child in Amsterdam where all bars/cafes are tiny (much tinier than here) and it was considered to be no problem there. In fact, the cafe owners gave me presents for the baby in two of the places I used to go to.

Coffee was much better as well confused

justanuthermanicmumsday Fri 30-Aug-13 12:48:00

If its a small cafe up unreasonable if it ps spacious then he's an idiot. Either way take your business to someone who wants it forget him.

At least you're not in Edinburgh they don't let mums on with prams buggies I call they discrimination against people who choose to have kids. apparently you have to fold it. Yes try that with a new born in one hand or even a baby of years old impossible. Suffice to say I never use the buses.

usualsuspect Fri 30-Aug-13 12:50:33

In the olden days,folding your pram on buses was the norm. We managed.

<old glimmer>

kelda Fri 30-Aug-13 12:50:39

I would have the baby in one side of the sling and eat/drink with my hand on the other side.

I seemed to manage holding a baby, drinking coffee and mumsnetting well enough!

You won't win this one. Mothers with prams are quickly becoming the scourge of society.

Fakebook Fri 30-Aug-13 12:54:36

How do you drink a hot coffee without risking scalding the baby?

Ask for a take away cup with a lid?

A 5 week old baby doesn't move much, and unless you have a habit of dribbling your coffee everywhere, she'll be fine.

Put top of sling over baby's head, place protective left hand over head and drink with right hand. Have newspaper spread out over table to read between sips.

I really miss slings.

flipchart Fri 30-Aug-13 12:59:01

YABU and I think you are being rather ridiculous and precious to be fuming!!

And you can't manage to have a baby on your lap and have a hot drink. Good grief.

What's the problem?

sameoldIggi Fri 30-Aug-13 13:00:16

Justanuthermanicmumsday - thank god they have seen sense it Edinburgh, the pram-ban is no more

kelda Fri 30-Aug-13 13:01:53

elinorbellowed - so do I. Carrying the baby in a sling gave me such a sense of freedom. None of this hassle of fighting for space on the bus/in a restaurant.

SoupDragon Fri 30-Aug-13 13:02:01

[shrug] Move back to Amsterdam then wink

It's easy to drink and not risk the baby - just swivel your head to one side. No risk necessary.

SilverApples Fri 30-Aug-13 13:04:34

So now you have a choice to make OP. How are you going to deal with stuff like this over the next few years?
Will you protest and froth and complain about things not being fair because they are not tailored to your needs every time?
Or are you able to stand back, look at a situation dispassionately and think about what is fair to you and others? That sometimes you need to be a problem-solver yourself and thing around an issue.
YABU, space, mobility of other customers, dirt on the wheels tracking everywhere. Look for a chain cafe that copes with these better.
Practice drinking cold drinks with the baby in a sling until you are confident.

SilverApples Fri 30-Aug-13 13:06:01

When I was in Amsterdam, the sheer amount of dogshit on the streets would have been more of an issue if I'd been pushing a buggy or steering a toddler. I hope that's changed.

sameoldIggi Fri 30-Aug-13 13:06:03

Everything is harder with new baby. Have a look around for which other cages are more accommodating. He isn't meaning to upset you, just don't think about him again.
Remember being "allowed" in a cafe with ds1 but they out the pram away from my table, to be out of the road. They set it, with sleeping lo inside, in front of their steaming coffee machine! I would have preferred to just be told we weren't welcome, I think.

Greydog Fri 30-Aug-13 13:08:46

YABU

hazeyjane Fri 30-Aug-13 13:09:57

I'm afraid after witnessing a woman spill a coffee (in a take away cup) all over her baby that she was breastfeeding, I wouldn't risk coffee with baby in a sling either.

JessePinkmansBitch - I don't know what the law is wrt wheelchairs and private businesses, but I can think of a few cafes and buildings that aren't wheelchair accessible.

The ones we can't fit in, strictly speaking could accomodate us (ds is in a sn buggy) but tbh it is such a faff because they are tiny and we feel in the way, that we don't bother.

sameoldIggi Fri 30-Aug-13 13:22:28

Cafes, not cages!

Jan49 Fri 30-Aug-13 13:37:51

How do you drink a hot coffee without risking scalding the baby?

When my ds was little, if we went in a café, I didn't have a hot drink even though I'd usually drink gallons of tea. I always had a cold drink. You can have hot drinks at home. I didn't use a sling but I didn't think it was safe to have a hot drink with a small child at a table who could knock it over. I usually went in self-service cafes so I'd be carrying my drink too. It just seemed an unnecessary risk when you can have a hot drink at home.

I don't think you can really expect a café to have space for a pram or pushchair that isn't folded.

Forgetfulmog Fri 30-Aug-13 13:46:20

How do you drink a hot drink with a baby in a sling? Carefully!

Seriously though, my dd used to cluster feed for England as a newborn. I learnt to manoeuvre food (hot or cold), hot drinks & MN pretty quickly!

Obviously there are horror stories about babies being scalded with hot drinks, but hey there are always risks when you're a parent, you just need to try to be careful.

newgirl Fri 30-Aug-13 13:48:39

Aw I have sympathy for op - I remember those early weeks needing a coffee etc

There are lots of places where you can take pram - surely still sitting outside weather too? Find the places with lots space and then you can relax and enjoy yourself x

kmc1111 Fri 30-Aug-13 13:56:12

YABU. Prams are a nightmare in small cafe's, the smallest models can still easily take up more room than a table, and if they had that room to spare there would be a table there. Even in really spacious cafe's they can be a real hazard if you get a few customers at the one table surrounded by prams, or if they're placed so they block walkways, the counter etc. They make it hard for staff to safely carry food and in a small place they can completely block a table or two off meaning less customers. Does your pram have a detachable Just get a bike lock and a sling and leave the pram outside. Or if you don't want to leave the pram outside and it folds down to a size that could fit under a small table, do that.

In a small space wait staff carrying hot drinks or soup tripping over the pram or having to contort themselves to get around it, losing their balance in the process, would present a bigger danger to baby than you pouring your cup of coffee on it's head. Just get whatever your drinking put in a takeaway cup with lid, or order iced coffee or tea.

flipchart Fri 30-Aug-13 14:01:21

Do parents not do what us parents did 15 years ago?

Go past a coffee shop, stick your head in and think, Oh heck, it's a bit cramped in here ( quickly works out that people won't be able to get past you with the pram, buggy, what ever) and decide to go somewhere else bigger and more comfortable.

I've even gone back to the small place when I've not had children with me.
Never occurred to me to be fuming for ages after.

Some parents of today think everything should be geared up to suit them.
Not everything is a one size fits all you know!

SilverApples Fri 30-Aug-13 14:09:36

That's because you iz oooold flipchart. grin
My PFB is 22 now, yes I remember the shock of finding out not everyone was prepared to orbit her splendor.

Mutley77 Fri 30-Aug-13 14:14:58

I understand why you are fuming. You have a 5 week old and are hungry plus there is no obvious reason not to be allowed in the cafe (eg it being overcrowded).

I'm with you, I find having a baby in a pram much easier. And safer. Having a boiling hot drink over a baby's head is not safe, anything could happen eg someone knocks your arm, and baby could be scarred for life.

If my baby isn't in the mood to be held she will be grumpy and difficult to manage in sling, crying and arching back. If she is asleep in pram she is generally contented for long enough that I can have a drink and something to eat. Make sure you find somewhere to accommodate your with the pram as it will be more relaxing for the rest of your mat leave!

SilverApples Fri 30-Aug-13 14:17:21

'Make sure you find somewhere to accommodate your with the pram as it will be more relaxing for the rest of your mat leave!'

Good advice.
Are there other places in your locality that are better at dealing with parents and small children?

EssexGurl Fri 30-Aug-13 14:18:56

I had this when DS was little. Reluctantly let in but told would have to go if it got busy. Funnily enough in the last 6 years I think I have only been in once. On that occasion told they wouldn't serve us just coffee and cake as it was lunchtime and they only did full meals. NO ONE in the place and would only have been 15 min as waiting for DSs prescription to be filled. It is a nice independent business that I would much rather patronise. But now Costa across the road get my business - and they help with DDs buggy if needed. All the school mums go there - better service.

Forgetfulmog Fri 30-Aug-13 14:19:41

Can I just add that having a baby in a pram does not make it immune to scalding from hot drinks! A person could just as easily (accidentally) spill a hot drink into the pram as knock your hot drink.

Anyway do parents these days not hold their babies in cafes at all for fear of hot drink spillage hmm?

SilverApples Fri 30-Aug-13 14:21:21

Is the other cafe empty EssexGurl? Or does it have all the custom that would rather have a toddler-free drink?

flipchart Fri 30-Aug-13 14:25:23

That's because you iz oooold flipchart.
Yep, and not self obsessed and expecting the world to accommodate me just because I have a baby.

I bloody hate prams in coffee shops when the entitled mum thinks it's ok to block aisles and we have to squeeze past to get to a counter, while they don't even look up from the cappuccino's
<<Ribble Valley mum's I'm glaring at you lot!!>>

SilverApples Fri 30-Aug-13 14:28:29

I enjoy the mental image I have when someone says 'my baby' in a particular context, or with a special voice. It involves a MP heavenly choir and targeted sunbeams.
Only in my head mind, whilst I'm gathering my patient and helpful response.

Forgetfulmog Fri 30-Aug-13 14:30:24

Silver - there needs to be a "like" button on MN grin

MrsOakenshield Fri 30-Aug-13 14:39:52

Normally I would think, if the cafe is too small it just won't work with buggies - but if the OP says she has been places that are smaller, that can accommodate buggies, it does make me think - well, why can't they? Of course, they don't have to, it's their business, but I do think knowing that other countries can do this should make us think again, rather than assuming we have it right here, and also, that just because our mums had to do things in a certain way, we should still do it like that 20/30/40 years later.

kalidasa Fri 30-Aug-13 14:42:17

I think it's his prerogative (and his loss) but that people are nasty about mothers and prams in this country. I really feel for you, I hated that stage when even getting to a cafe is such a massive ordeal and if you're used to working and having an adult identity you already feel weirdly invisible and second class.

I also find the mumsnet sling propaganda irritating. Not all women can use them (e.g. if you have back or pelvic problems, perhaps after SPD) and some women who can use them just don't like them. I was really keen on the idea but in the event my baby liked it but I absolutely loathed the thing, I felt trapped and too hot. I wouldn't have a hot drink wearing one either, and there are few times in life when you are more in need of a coffee than with a tiny baby in tow.

Top tip: a really good coffee cup holder to go on the handle of your pram, that way you can get a coffee to take away from small places.

Shockingundercrackers Fri 30-Aug-13 15:03:21

I'm not an "entitled mum". Or a total twat. I move out of the way of customers / waiting staff and wouldn't dream of trying to take a pram into a busy cafe either. I was annoyed because his place was empty and because I'd been there loads of times before and sent literally hundreds of pounds. Obviously I won't go in there again, but it's a pain in the arse. Its the only coffee shop near me and the other option would be to pay £4.40 to wrestle the wee man onto a bus to go into town. Not really worth it, even for my coffee habit.

What I don't get is why so many people get fuck you bitch about it... I just wanted a damn coffee in peace, i wasn't holding an NCT meeting or anything.

Imagine trying to have a coffee somewhere on your own, like a normal person.... Outrageous! Outside with a paper cup and think yourself lucky love. Jeese, I'll be wearing eyeliner and asking for equal pay next. shock

But I do get that public opinion is overwhelmingly against me so fair enough. I'll get my sorry arse back in the kitchen where it belongs.

expatinscotland Fri 30-Aug-13 15:03:48

If I had a café I'd go one step further and hang a sign on the door, 'No unfolded buggies or prams.' They're a hazard in places serving hot drinks.

expatinscotland Fri 30-Aug-13 15:05:52

Geez! I can't take my kids into a pub or restaurant pub in this country after 8PM. Fecking laws! The world is against me.

SilverApples Fri 30-Aug-13 15:06:42

' I'll get my sorry arse back in the kitchen where it belongs.'

Well, if it's all or nothing...you could consider a thermos.

MrsOakenshield Fri 30-Aug-13 15:10:00

there is no law about having a pram in a cafe, expat, that's a daft comparison, the OP isn't asking for the law to be changed.

Unfolded buggies are not automatically a hazard. Surprisingly, many people who use them are quite capable of doing so considerately.

Would you ban children, too? - the amount of them I see running around in places serving hot drinks, and that is a hazard. Of course, not all children, or even most children do so, but don't let that stand in your way. (Never seen a buggy running amok, though; weird, that.)

BettyandDon Fri 30-Aug-13 15:10:29

He's a miserable bugger IMO smile

If the cafes around here were the same they would not get a lot of business. Our lovely Italian place even has a toy section.

I've never been a fan of taking a baby in a sling to a coffee shop. Far too much of a risk of a burn on a little head for me. Just go elsewhere.

DuckToWater Fri 30-Aug-13 15:10:56

I just stuck to places with lots of space around the tables and when DDs were big enough, got a tiny Maclaren that could be folded up and put out of the way.

BackforGood Fri 30-Aug-13 15:14:01

Maybe I was doing something wrong, but with a 5 week old and an older child, I never had the time or money to be sitting in cafes sipping coffee, so can't really see how this is an issue at all.

Now my dc are all old enough to be left, so I have a lot more time on my hands, and dh and I are a lot further up the career ladder, and aren't paying childcare, so we have more 'spendable cash', I will occasionally meet a friend for a coffee, and I think it's a real treat.

Just thought I'd say wink

expatinscotland Fri 30-Aug-13 15:14:03

Not at all, MrsO. If you don't like it, you find a workround. That's life.

I'd ban unfolded prams and buggies if I had a café, yeah. They're a nuisance and take up space and put off customers. If I see a café with buggies and prams, I find another one. I'm past that stage and don't care to be around babies and toddlers whilst I enjoy a coffee.

I'm all for childfree areas of airplanes, too. As a person who has to travel with young children on long haul flights, I'd rather we were sat in one area with all the other children so as not to disturb others.

BettyandDon Fri 30-Aug-13 15:15:28

Personally I would like to see the return of the 'coffee morning', aka coffee from a kettle with a biscuit out a tin round your neighbours.

It is a lonely business being a mum especially when local cafes are not welcoming YANBU!

slightlysoupstained Fri 30-Aug-13 15:18:28

" I think it's his prerogative (and his loss) but that people are nasty about mothers and prams in this country."

This. I dislike the way it seems to be considered outrageously precious for women to take up space, how dare they?

I wasn't really able to cope with sling in early days due to SPD. Great once I was steady enough on my feet to manage. Back to not using it now after DS got too big for comfort.

One thing I am confused by though - I thought a buggy covered prams and pushchairs - does it?

DuckToWater Fri 30-Aug-13 15:19:03

Coffee mornings are still very much alive and well. I just preferred to go to a coffee shop.

JenaiMorris Fri 30-Aug-13 15:19:25

I hated slings.

Find a bigger caff, op. Or a Slug & Lettuce type place - save the bijoux cafés for baby-free time and relish there being no other small children there to impinge.

flipchart Fri 30-Aug-13 15:20:33

You mightn't be an entitled mum or total twat, but plenty are!

There are a few rural villages near where I live and I cringe at the rudeness of some mums with prams and buggy's to be honest.

I work with children who have learning disabilities and during the school holidays after having a walk with them we have taken them for a cake and pop in the village coffee shop. Mums with buggys have two of them making it hard work to get past and tutted because one of the girls couldn't get past and she (the mum) had to get up and move it.

I just said 'Thank you, I'm sorry she struggles when there are obstacles blocking her path' and got glared at.

What I wanted to say was ' Oi. Move, you can see people are struggling. I know you don't give a fuck but I do!!!'
However as I work for LCC and had my lanyard on thought best not!

MrsOakenshield Fri 30-Aug-13 15:36:09

One thing I am confused by though - I thought a buggy covered prams and pushchairs - does it?

I take it to cover everything that isn't a pram with a carrycot. So not a Silver Cross stylee perambulator or a Cameleon.

MrsDeVere Fri 30-Aug-13 15:38:47

I know I shouldn't
but I can't help it
the comment about getting on a bus made me literally LOL.

You have only been able to get buggies on buses for a few years.

Before that me and that old bag usual had to fold and carry.

In all fairness, it was pretty hard.

But you did it or walked. I walked mostly, specially after having DS1. I am not going to try and convince anyone it is easy to fold a double buggy and hold on to two under twos. grin

thebody Fri 30-Aug-13 15:45:07

yes MrsD and amazingly we managed without special parking spaces too.

God we were good.

queenofthemountains Fri 30-Aug-13 15:45:52

When my daughter was having surgery at 3 months, a baby was brought in with 3rd degree burns from a cup of coffee, you should never drink a hot drink over a child.
It was the most horrendous thing I have ever seen a tiny baby covered in burns, plus you literally have to stay in hospital for weeks with them, this babies Aunty had to stay as the mum had other kids.
The second lot of surgery had a 2 yr old totally burnt from a really hot bath his mum had run and he jumped in!
Please, please never drink a hot drink over a baby, I will never forget that poor baby.

ArtexMonkey Fri 30-Aug-13 15:49:42

"What I don't get is why so many people get fuck you bitch about it"

Cos this is mumsnet, where there is a daily competition to see who can be the most unentitled, unpfb parenting badass. wink Want to sit down on the bus when pg? Fuck you bitch, you're pregnant not disabled. Want to park in a baby and toddler space with a baby and toddler? Fuck you bitch, babies don't melt in the rain. Etc.

On mn, LIFE IS PAIN, get used to it love grin

MrsOakenshield Fri 30-Aug-13 15:50:28

I know I shouldn't
but I can't help it

and I've said it before

it would be so nice if people could stop being so mean-spirited about changes that have happened for the better for parents. Please?

ArtexMonkey Fri 30-Aug-13 15:54:03

Yy mrs O. Some mners are destined to be those old cats bum mouth ladies on buses who tut and moan about how 'you couldn't bring prams on buses in my day'. To which the only response is 'yes and pensioners didn't get free fares either' of course.

SilverApples Fri 30-Aug-13 15:55:17

AretexMonkey grin

And people are always fuming or outraged, aware of every last possible right and getting the loppers out for every male that transgresses in any way, and are constantly about to have an apoplectic fit over very minor issues.
Compromise? negotiation? cutting people a bit of slack?
This is not the MN Way. This is Heresy.
I'm a paid up member of the Old Bag brigade, I like a lot of the changes that have happened, but I'd back the Old Bags for survival in a Zombie Apocalypse.

FrigginRexManningDay Fri 30-Aug-13 16:00:05

Ah here,give over with this get your ass back to the kitchen stuff. Why not get a maxi cosi for your pram so you can leave the chassis outside and bring your baby in. Christ on a bike no need for the martyrdom.

In my day I walked five miles up hill to the shop with a hand me down pram,20 kids and me with my gammy leg. Barefoot. In the snow.

runes Fri 30-Aug-13 16:02:00

Yanbu. I went into my local small independent coffee shop yesterday with my 8 month old and 2.8 yr old straped into a double buggy, yes a double buggy shock The attitude on here would suggest that I should have been arrested on the spot, but guess what, the staff were lovely, the other customers chatted to my toddler and baby, and I had a lovely lunch. The man's an arse, tell everyone you know and never darken his miserable door again

ThursdayLast Fri 30-Aug-13 16:03:29

I can comment from a waitress POV.

I know that you said the cafe was quiet, but sometimes there is a lot more going on under the surface...big booking about to come in...massive delivery due etc etc. I know this has made me look stressed and stressy in the past, and unable to properly explain it.

I'm now a mum with a baby who frequents cafes so I'm my own worst enemy these days, but prams can take up a lot of space. I would never dream of asking anyone to leave because of it, but then I've only ever been an employee, not the owner. You just have to trust that the mums will notice the obstruction they're causing...sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

Small children in coffee shops are a nerve wrecking nightmare. Some people are so mental they expect me to pass their hot drinks over the heads of children. I DON'T THINK SO!

Also, I can assure you all that there are entitled twats in every walk of life.

MrsDeVere Fri 30-Aug-13 16:04:10

Please do point out where I have been mean spirited MrsOak
I am assuming that fine bit of passive aggression was directed at me?

MrsDeVere Fri 30-Aug-13 16:05:37

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Shockingundercrackers Fri 30-Aug-13 16:09:43

I think it's just a bit weird that all mums with prams (I'm a bit old and prone to call anything with wheels that you cart a baby round in "a pram" I'm afraid) get tarred with the same brush. I'm sure a proportion of them are hideous people. Were before they pushed new hideous people out of their fanjos and still are afterwards. But most pram pushers are just perfectly nice people who just happened to have bred. Personally, I'm not expecting special treatment, I just don't want to be a social pariah.

Mrsdevere I'm a bit depressed about the mobility scooter problem. Jeese, that puts things into context. Why are people so bloody grumpy? If I had a caff I'd make room for your DH and I think anyone with any manners would do the same.

ArtexMonkey Fri 30-Aug-13 16:12:00

Ah come on mrs d, there's loads of posts on here about pfbs (even though op has said it's not her first) and mothers wanting the world to revolve round them etc, and that's how these threads ALWAYS go down, the mums of the older dcs come on and shit all over what they inevitably perceive as pfb pretensions, having seemingly forgotten how knackering it is having a very small baby.

MrsDeVere Fri 30-Aug-13 16:12:36

Thank you shocking

I am sure you will find somewhere a bit more baby friendly. That cafe obviously wants to deter mums with prams. Its their loss.

Want2bSupermum Fri 30-Aug-13 16:13:04

Someone else has already said it. The cafe owner is probably concerned about a hot drink being spilt over the child. I am shocked at the number of wait staff who hold hot food and drinks over my children's heads.

OP - If you have a bugaboo get the attachment for the car seat. You can easily carry in the car seat and leave the frame outside. I do this with my stroller all the time. The highchairs here in the US can be turned upside down and the car seat fits in it that way. I always put the baby next to the wall, away from any paths of the wait staff.

usualsuspect Fri 30-Aug-13 16:13:51

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everlong Fri 30-Aug-13 16:14:26

That coffee I shop I told you about let's dogs in. Big smelly wet dogs in.

Mine. wink prams and dogs.

So I can't complain.

MrsDeVere Fri 30-Aug-13 16:15:28

Yes Artex and there is also a LOT of ageism if you admit you are over 30.

I made some mild comments and observations and out come the nasty comments about old people.

Just as we all had pfbs everyone on here (if they are lucky) will be 'old' one day.

The fact is, we did have to carry our children on buses and tbh the trouble caused by buggy spaces and P&C parking seems to wipe out most of the benefits.

And if someone has got to the point where they feel its impossible to travel on a bus unless they can push their pram on to it, do you really think that is a good thing?

everlong Fri 30-Aug-13 16:16:07

Oh blimey didn't see it get all weird.

wine for everyone?

Nearly back to school? Have I mentioned that my ds' have been off 8 and 9 weeks? I must have.

MissDD1971 Fri 30-Aug-13 16:18:38

I'm coming from the era where my mum had those stripey fold up (like deckchair material) pushchairs - so very foldable.

Could you not fold up buggy and put baby in high chair? Most cafes provide this.

and yes, leave it outside either where you can keep an eye on it's being stolen or whatever.

also, I know slings are considered by some to be unsafe but what about those baby back pack things or wouldn't that work?

mumofthemonsters808 Fri 30-Aug-13 16:19:33

I feel for you OP because I can remember entering a shop with a stroller. The shop was empty and I already had in my hand what I wanted, when the woman shouted that buggies were not allowed. I asked her if I could just pay for the item and she bellowed not until I had taken my trolley out. I put the item down and left. 11 years on whenever I see the shop I laugh, but at the time I was so angry.

sammisatt Fri 30-Aug-13 16:20:52

Sorry to hijack but I couldn't access tescos extra this morning with my double buggy and twin babies due to the boxes on the floor.I was told to leave the pram with the babies in it just inside the exit. Was I being unreasonable to think this was unreasonable?? How the hell are they equipped to accommodate wheelchair users? I am not of course comparing myself to a wheelchair user, I just have so much more empathy with the nightmare of accessing certain public places now I have a twin buggy.

Sorry for the hijack!

MissDD1971 Fri 30-Aug-13 16:21:52

I think maybe cafe owner you never know perhaps he gets busier after a certain time.

Also if small cafe (eg not huge Costa etc) then fire safety etc or spillage may be a concern.

Artex, you go, girl! Fucking brilliant posts. They know who they are...as do we wink

Shockingundercrackers Fri 30-Aug-13 16:22:40

I should at this point reveal that I've had serious reservations about this particular cafe owner before. He's a right miserable get. In fact, in fairness I'd not really bother with his tiresome cafe were it not for the fact that after five weeks of zero sleep I couldn't be arsed to make lunch for myself.

Well I went home and ate my own cane so that showed him.

Do think this an interesting thread though, glad I posted. If nothing else it's soothed some of my ruffled old bird feathers.

expatinscotland Fri 30-Aug-13 16:23:01

Oh, dear, yes, had to fold up the buggy and manage with toddler and baby on buses. Still here. Don't see any of it - non-folding buggies on buses or parent and child spaces as good things at all. That's not just a cat's bum but a mangy cat arse. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

MissDD1971 Fri 30-Aug-13 16:24:09

mumofthemonsters808 - that is quite bad.

however it is HER business! not that I'd darken her door again LOL. but to turn you away even if you're buying a takeaway what a mean cow.

sammisatt - my brother's FIL is in a wheelchair and ITA with you re wheelchairs/double buggies. also a good friend of mine had a double buggy a few years back and said it was nightmare getting it most places. I sympathise.

DontmindifIdo Fri 30-Aug-13 16:24:57

See OP, I think YABU to be fuming, but you would be U if you went to that coffee shop again.

while you can leave your pram/buggy out side, fold up the buggy, take a sling, if you have been walking with your 5 wo in the pram and he's asleep, you then either have to wake your baby (defeating the object of a nice coffee in peace) to take them out or leave them in the pram outside, and no, I wouldn't leave a bugaboo outside a coffeeshop, they are bloody expensive and you will probably be cluttering up the path outside (few places have space to have a pram that size and say a wheelchair going on the pavement).

I just don't see that you should be going out of your way to give someone else some money. Go elsewhere.

There was a coffee shop near us who had a similar policy. The local yummy mummies voted with their feet and went elsewhere. The owner unfortunately learnt the hard way that during the working day, the people about in our town are mums, unemployed people, a few retired people (who don't spend a lot of money) and those working from home types who go to a coffee shop, order one coffee and nurse it all day while using the free wifi. They went under. The coffee shop has reopened with new owners, they are now super family friendly, and are heaving with buggies that cost a grand each, pushed by mums with expensive highlights leaving large tips. (I felt a right scruff in there the other day, but my god the cakes are good!)

MissDD1971 Fri 30-Aug-13 16:26:55

OP - I know this sounds silly but maybe post on local mums forums about this, even do a piece for local newspaper?

name and shame and get more kid/baby friendly cafes to open up. I'd rather have a cute baby in a buggy than a grumpy old cafe owner scowling at me LOL! smile

ArtexMonkey Fri 30-Aug-13 16:26:58

"Just as we all had pfbs everyone on here (if they are lucky) will be 'old' one day."

Yes, hence me saying in my post "destined to be old". As in, in the future. Not "you are old now at this minute". I wasn't being ageist, ta v much, I won't see 35 again myself. But people love to knee jerk don't they? Eh well.

MrsDeVere Fri 30-Aug-13 16:29:51

My comment was more directed at MrsO

ah well.

JenaiMorris Fri 30-Aug-13 16:30:13

I was on the ferry the other day and it was FULL of small children. I hated it.

Not even the bar was free of wailing toddlers and 5yos waving fairy wands.

It occurred to me that I wouldn't have been remotely bothered as a younger woman but now I'm older I really can't be arsed. It's the one thing I've become less tolerant about as I age <gimmer>

MrsDeVere Fri 30-Aug-13 16:30:56

As I wasn't being mean spirited at all.

Her post was kneejerk.

As was my 'fuck off'

JenaiMorris Fri 30-Aug-13 16:32:39

I'm mean spirited grin

SilverApples Fri 30-Aug-13 16:33:40

I'm really old. I can't wait to be an outrageous pensioner.
I have a to do-list. grin

usualsuspect Fri 30-Aug-13 16:35:49

I'm a right miserable fucker.I work in a cafe too.

So get loads of opportunities to cats bum face.

flipchart Fri 30-Aug-13 16:35:51

OP - I know this sounds silly but maybe post on local mums forums about this, even do a piece for local newspaper?

name and shame and get more kid/baby friendly cafes to open up. I'd rather have a cute baby in a buggy than a grumpy old cafe owner scowling at me LOL

Why does everything have to be kiddy friendly?

I like going to places where there are no kids, babies or toddlers.
When my kids were small I went to places that were kid orientated like a Brewster or Charlie Chalk or whatever was around.

I avoid those places now and go to places where kids are not likely to go.
Nothing wrong with that, horses for courses.

If and when I have grandchildren I will take them to Brewster type places and still go to the kid unfriendly places with my friends.

Don't see why people have to be shamed.

ArtexMonkey Fri 30-Aug-13 16:36:09

Oh,ok, mrsdevere, I've obviously misunderstood, it's just that I can't see that mrs o has said anything that could be construed as nasty or ageist or warranting a fuck off in any way. Whereas it was me that mentioned old catsbum ladies (of the FUTURE, people, the future) and now everyone seems to have a hair up their arse.

ArtexMonkey Fri 30-Aug-13 16:37:21

Oh shit x posts, I should just stop posting, I know you weren't being mean spirited mrs d, but maybe her comment wasn't directed at you?

JenaiMorris Fri 30-Aug-13 16:39:39

I don't mind them (children or parents with prams) if they're well behaved, but often they're not. I'm a former waitress and can attest to the fact that many parents and children are a royal pita.

TooExtraImmatureCheddar Fri 30-Aug-13 16:40:26

Have only read part of the thread, so apologies if anyone has pointed this out already. Justanothermanicmumsday, you only have to fold your pram/buggy on an Edinburgh bus if there is a wheelchair user trying to use the space. Or if you get on and someone else is already there with a pram - think in that case both of you have to fold pram so others can get past. I have used the big Quinny buggy and the little McLaren on an Edinburgh bus and seen multiple others with an unfolded buggy using the space. Maybe I should add that if a wheelchair user appeared I would have folded my pram/buggy immediately!

expatinscotland Fri 30-Aug-13 16:42:41

I look forward to adult-only activities. There are even cruises for adults over a certain age only. My folks love them!

MrsDeVere Fri 30-Aug-13 16:44:09

I think it probably was as she was doing a little take off of my post smile

It would be difficult for me to forget what it was like having a little baby as despite my great old age I have a three year old to remind me. grin

There are always people on here ready to start going on about nasty old women who have forgotten what its like...

if anyone dares suggest it was ok to do without certain things in the olden days. Its very unpleasant.

timidviper Fri 30-Aug-13 16:44:26

flipchart absolutely agree. Not everywhere should be child friendly, let's have a range of places

SilverApples Fri 30-Aug-13 16:45:40

Don'tmindifIdo put a logical argument. The owner gets to decide, and if they turn away parents with buggies, their business may or may not survive.
Which is also the owner's decision.
If they choose to have a cafe that is clutter-free, with clean floors, that's still legal.

MissDD1971 Fri 30-Aug-13 16:46:14

flipchart I can see your point.

I suppose there will always be 2 camps one who wants no kids anywhere at all and those who want the right to take them where they like.

I work in one of most child-saturated places in London (Wimbledon) - not saying the cafes need to be or are kid friendly but like it can be hard to gauge what is and isn't.

I'm not a mum, don't plan to be one - not yet but I know some friends of mine and recall when I was young being made to feel like an alien outsider if you had kids with you, however young.

we got it in the neck from publicans when it was pouring lashing rain in the countryside and turned away (in 70's/80's). it is really necessary for this type of behaviour these days?!

and trust me I see lots of little angels (sorry brats, can't do the strikethrough) and parents who are a PITA too when eating/having coffee out.

MissDD1971 Fri 30-Aug-13 16:47:15

timidviper - how do you see if there is a range of places child or not child friendly?

should these places display signs?!

emblosion Fri 30-Aug-13 16:47:38

Artex <snort> at "LIFE IS PAIN"

OP I don't think you are really BU - although obviously owners perogative if they don't allow prams/buggies. Don't waste time being cross about it, just don't go back.

It's different once babies can sit in high chair, but when they are v small all you can do is hold them, not ideal when trying to eat/drink.

ArtexMonkey Fri 30-Aug-13 16:50:13

And what I find unpleasant is when unsuspecting noobs still doing the 3x a night breastfeed zombie shuffle get told they're ludicrous and precious and entitled and don't know they're born compared to the olden days if they or their tiny baby impact on any passing randomer in any way. There is a balance to be struck I think.

SilverApples Fri 30-Aug-13 16:51:08

How about the camp that doesn't mind children and babies if they are with considerate and thoughtful parents who are prepared to be proactive about problems and issues?
Aware of the impact on other customers?
That sort of thing?
Our local independent cafe is lovely, and child-friendly. Most of the PITA parents seem to go to cafe Nero, the teens go to Starbucks.

ilovesooty Fri 30-Aug-13 16:51:51

Agree with expat

And I think that the number of child friendly initiatives over the years have arguably been disadvantageous to parents. They've certainly resulted in less tolerance of children, not more.

People often actively avoid child friendly establishments and adult only environments are decreasing in number.

BackforGood Fri 30-Aug-13 16:55:36

Totally agree with Flipchart (+Usual,Silver,Jenai, Expat earlier on, and others).
It is right that business owners have a right to choose what they offer. As customers, we then have the choice to decide which businesses we frequent. Once your little dc are no longer little (or if they are, but you've arranged to pay a babysitter for them) it's nice to be able to do things in peace, without small dc around sometimes. Choice is the key here.

Shockingundercrackers Fri 30-Aug-13 16:57:31

I'm struggling to keep up... Got a very refluxy newborn in a sling and a three year old making worryingly scrapey noises in the bathroom. No time for anything with small people is there?

Which sort of brings me back to my original point. I'd had a perfectly hideous day yesterday (new baby and me both in tears pretty much all till tea time) and all I wanted to do this morning was feel normal.

Or as normal as you can get when you're a 40 cough something mother of two small children. I wanted some coffee and the chance to read up on the parliamentary shenanigans of the night before. I thought I'd get a paper, a fancy feta cheese wrap thing and a little sit down somewhere not festooned in gobbed-on muslin cloths. I couldn't have got as far as a kid friendly cafe, and in any case, I wouldn't have wanted to. Hell, as we all know after all, is other people's children.

I was denied.

The denier was a bit of an arse.

I wont go there again.

I feel better for sharing.

ArtexMonkey Fri 30-Aug-13 17:03:14

Never mind Shocking grin

I have a lovely neighbour (she is an old lady but not a catsbum one) who would always shout "aren't you lucky love? Happiest days of your life" at me when she saw me struggling up and down our hill with my toddler and newborn, and you know what,it would always make me smile and think 'right on sister' no matter what sort of a day/night I'd had.

Shockingundercrackers Fri 30-Aug-13 17:09:17

Artex I'd lol at that were I not such an old fart... I did laugh though. Out loud.

She's quite right you know. Tis all downhill from here.

I really do feel better now. Dangerously better. Wine o'clock anyone?

TooExtraImmatureCheddar Fri 30-Aug-13 17:10:18

If you are the only cafe in the area, with any others requiring a £4.40 bus journey, and you are nearly empty when a woman plus pram appears, and you subsequently turn that woman away, then I think you have your business model wrong. As someone upthread said, the vast majority of custom during the day for most cafes is mothers with kids.

I used to be a waitress in a coffee shop and our biggest bugbear was the owner who had visions of a San Francisco-style music & coffee shop. To this end he wouldn't let us turn the music down even when customers begged us to, and said they were leaving because they couldn't hear each other speak, at 10am, over the music. It was not a student area, it was well off the beaten track and attracted mainly early breakfast/lunch office workers, plus some lost tourists. Funnily enough, that branch folded. Moral of the story: know your clientele and adapt!

flipchart Fri 30-Aug-13 17:15:41

how do you see if there is a range of places child or not child friendly?

Local knowledge.

Also kid friendly tends to be in bright colours and have information like child menus advertised (and they have a load of mums with buggy's blocking the aisle!!)

SilverApples Fri 30-Aug-13 17:21:39

Some of my favourite cafes are upstairs, or have an upstairs.
That works well. smile

usualsuspect Fri 30-Aug-13 17:26:31

I usually stick up for the mum's on the 'cafe' threads on MN.

But as I've been labelled a miserable old sod.

I won't bother again.

usualsuspect Fri 30-Aug-13 17:28:48

I've had some right barneys on here,defending noisy kids blah blah.

I still think the cafe owner in this instance wasn't wrong though.

Bowlersarm Fri 30-Aug-13 17:32:58

OP could you just leave the pram outside and carry your baby into the cafe?

Just lift baby out, and have him/her in your lap (not a sling), or propped over your shoulder, while you are sitting at table enjoying lovely coffee. And cake. I think that's what I used to do. Although that was in the olden days.

Yes please to wine o'clock.

MrsGeologist Fri 30-Aug-13 17:35:15

It's his cafe and his rules OP, but I agree that he was a right miserable git. It's not unreasonable to not want to leave your newborn outside on their own.

My mum struggled with a two year old and a newborn. Cafes didn't have facilities for us, buses were a right PITA, and shopping was a nightmare. She hated it and wouldn't wish that on me. She thinks things being more child friendly and easier for parents is absolutely fantastic (I've never seen someone so happy to be able to park I. A P&C space at a supermarket)
She struggled, but the fact that things are easier for me doesn't make me entitled or precious.

If the cafe wasn't busy, and you wouldn't have unreasonably got in anyone's way by being there then he was just being a miserable twat.

ivykaty44 Fri 30-Aug-13 17:36:54

Could you not fold up buggy and put baby in high chair?

Can you put a 5 week old baby in a highchair?

BoffinMum Fri 30-Aug-13 17:37:11

It sounds like one of those moments when you want to say 'Oh, yes, normally that would be fine but I have been up all night with him and he has finally dropped off and I am desperate for one of your coffees, would 20 minutes be alright?' whilst radiating charm and niceness.

But what actually happens is that you walk off crying, or the cafe owner is a bit grumpy and refuses anyway, or the day just goes tits up from that point onwards anyway.

Move to the southern Mediterranean and they'll probably carry the pram in for you and make you feel like a childbearing goddess instead of a knackered hormonal blob. Some places occasionally are like that here, but not many. sad

ArtexMonkey Fri 30-Aug-13 17:44:07

Oh get down off the cross usual, we need to move it, there's a lady coming by with a Phil and Teds.

chebella Fri 30-Aug-13 17:48:09

boffin that is funny - I was just thinking how different it is here in Italy - plenty of firmly offered "advice" but it's really touching (sometimes literally!)how much babies are welcomed and by proxy parents. Huge status in being a mamma here and on 'those' days OP it's nice to get out and eat cake/feel like you are worthwhile. Miserable cafe owner - don't go back!

MrsGeologist Fri 30-Aug-13 17:53:46

grin artex

usualsuspect Fri 30-Aug-13 17:58:58

I.m blocking her way, with my fat old arse.

usualsuspect Fri 30-Aug-13 17:59:56

oh sorry is that my zimmer frame in the way.

ArtexMonkey Fri 30-Aug-13 18:07:06

Come on now, don't make me phone Dignitas.

usualsuspect Fri 30-Aug-13 18:09:13

I had to google Dignitas.

ha ha bloody ha

usualsuspect Fri 30-Aug-13 18:10:00

<shuffles off to gransnet>

SleepyFish Fri 30-Aug-13 18:17:10

I think regardless of whether the coffee shop owner was right or wrong it is utterly shit when this happens.
I had an identical experience once when ds was a few weeks old. He was a very difficult baby, had awful reflux and screamed whenever he was tired which was all the time as he never bloody slept.
The only thing that made him sleep was long bumpy walks so after finally getting him to sleep after walking miles on no sleep I was desperate for a sit down coffee, went into an empty coffee shop to be told no prams, like I was going to wake him.
I actually cried, the next nearest coffee shop was another 20 minute walk by which time he would be awake again.

FrigginRexManningDay Fri 30-Aug-13 18:22:50

I have the perfect solution. Us old hags bags can carry our saggy old tits in wheelbarrows and get all afronted when folk don't make way for us. There will be rows of barrows outside cafes.

DiaryOfAWimpyMum Fri 30-Aug-13 18:24:25

It depends on the size of the coffee shop I guess, Ive never had a problem with a pram, I was on a bus in Edinburgh with a pram a few weeks back, they have 2 free spaces for them. If those spaces are taken you wait for the next bus.

Turniptwirl Fri 30-Aug-13 18:28:13

Yabu, too many parents have no common sense or consideration for others when they have a buggy

MiaowTheCat Fri 30-Aug-13 18:37:24

Shit happens.

Coffee shop at our local garden centre has a pushchair/buggy/baby cage on wheels or whatever else you want to call it ban. It's a mild irritation since it's the nearest place to us but it's their business decision that they want to do that (and there are a bunch of self entitled witches out there who ruin things for everyone anyway). I just won't shop in the garden centre it's part of since they made the business decision they didn't want my custom in their coffee shop part... certainly not going rampaging to the local newspaper or netmums to try to wreck their business - they've added their numbers up and obviously think that blocking pushchairs and the subsequent increase they can make in table space adds up for them. I just go elsewhere.

As for buses - mine are at the age they need a double and I normally use a side by side - I keep a tandem around for buses and I'll gladly get off if a wheelchair needs to get on, or if the spaces are full I'll wait for the next bus. I don't view being a parent as a licence to be a twat.

Mamatomanymunchkins Fri 30-Aug-13 18:45:11

I would find another coffee shop ~ wouldn't want to sit somewhere so unwelcoming ~ go somewhere else that will welcome you and your baby. Also, I wouldn't take a sleeping baby out of a pram /leave pram unattended outside.

I can appreciate small shops can't have prams taking up all the space thou. Just have to accept some places will be out of bounds with a pram unfortunately sad and find yourself somewhere new smile

ivykaty44 Fri 30-Aug-13 18:52:41

Thing is it is utterly shit when it happens to us/me

When it happens to someone else it is understandable but when we are selfs are refused entry with a pram it is a pain in the arse.

You don't really want to leave the pram outside and try and hold a baby with one arm and drink a coffee and eat cake with the other. It is nice to actually operate as a mum with two arms once in a while.

Turniptwirl is right though so many pushchair users are inept as operating and parking these objects, I was trying to get out of the double doors at boots the other day in covent garden - a lady had parked her buggy right slap bang in the middle of the doors and as the buggy had bags on each side there was no way any one could get past the buggy... I have also not been able to get into local cafe on more than one occasion as there was a buggy blocking the way entirely at the first table, then the customer made a big fuss of moving the buggy each time a new customer wanted to enter and sit down at another table.

We are in a recession still and people will be happy to post advise on trip advisor OP I hope you do leave a report on trip advisor of how you were treated so others know this isn't a buggy friendly coffee shop and then can avoid this situation - make it clear and don't give scores for food or drink just the fact you didn't want to wake a 5 week baby and take them out the pram or leave outside. Businesses are silly to turn away paying customers when it is quite. It would have been far better for him to welcome you in and he could have mentioned when the cafe is busy he gets people to leave prams outside - then you would have known for another time why there was a difference if the place was busy.

I do think it is down tot he cafe owner to make customers feel comfortable with their rules as it is their trade that will suffer otherwise and the onus shoudl be on the owner to make sure the customer is comfortable, making signs- at busy times we regret prams are difficult to squeeze in our small cafe please ask and we will try and help. Or that type of thing

Jollyb Fri 30-Aug-13 19:20:58

When DD1 was a newborn I lived somewhere that was very baby friendly - most cafes welcomed/tolerated babies and their buggies. One didn't and got a complete pasting on the local forum.

I've recently had DD2 and now living in another town. Cafes far less set up for buggies and I've come to accept that my choices are more restricted. I usually end up in Neros as it is huge and easy.

JenaiMorris Fri 30-Aug-13 19:23:13

Friggin, will there be special parking spaces for our tit barrows?

BoffinMum Fri 30-Aug-13 19:23:49

I do agree that the designer pram trend is a pain for the general public. If people went out and about with more modest strollers it would be a lot less oppressive when they appear en masse.

Xmasbaby11 Fri 30-Aug-13 19:26:08

YABU because they can't create space if it isn't there ... it is probably fire regs. But I would have been upset too and what a shame to lose your custom. A Bugaboo is small - probably smaller than most buggies, I'd say. I think this is the problem with local smallish coffee shops, although I would rather go to these than the chains.

JenaiMorris Fri 30-Aug-13 19:29:28

My pram was HUGE. I loved it <wistful>

SeaSickSal Fri 30-Aug-13 20:02:29

There are/were 3 coffee shops local to where I live. One is genuinely to small for prams. The man who owns it has a toddler and does his best but after 1 or 2 prams are in at lunchtime he has to turn others away. The other one has lots of room and welcomes anybody. The third had plenty of room but actively discouraged push chairs with tutting and sometimes out right refusal.

The third one closed recently, I think that must have been part of the reason. If you're in a suburban area open in the daytime Mums and pensioners will be your core business.

Misspixietrix Fri 30-Aug-13 20:11:57

grin Artex! Quite right! FWIW I Don't think YABU. As others have said just take your custom to Costa elsewhere in Future ~

DontmindifIdo Fri 30-Aug-13 20:19:04

Boffin - I've said for a long time, there's money to be made in a stroller that's lightweight, rear facing, suitable for newborn and not requiring a degree in engineering to fold, and folds in one piece (and yes, I know the bugaboo bee is basically that, but it's soooo much much expensive than the McClarens that people mean when they say 'stroller', if you could make one around the same price as a McClaren it would be v popular).

BeauNatt Fri 30-Aug-13 20:37:04

Where do all these "helpful" posters live where they'd happily suggest leaving the pram outside? You do know how much these things are worth these days right? I feel uncomfortable leaving mine anywhere I can't see it.

And the person who suggested putting a 5 week old in a highchair, I guess you've never been anywhere near a newborn? What on earth?!

OP - fwiw there have been some really unnecessary replies here. I remember how shit the world seems with a 5 week old when all you want is a semblance of a normal day like you described. I hope you find somewhere local that is pram-suitable. Any nice big friendly pubs nearby?

MrsOakenshield Fri 30-Aug-13 20:38:51

firstly, apologies for posting in haste and running earlier, I decided that I really did have to do some work this afternoon after all.

My post, whilst mimicing MrsDV's, was badly phrased - I know your post wasn't mean spirited MrsDV, but it does make me sigh a bit that you just know that on threads like this people will come out of the woodwork to say, 'well, we didn't have this so why should you' kind of thing (I know that's not exactly what you said). And I just feel it would be more generous-spirited to say, 'wow, isn't it great the changes that have happened to make parents' lives a bit easier', be it changing facilities/P&C parking spaces/room on buses where you can park your pram (if not needed by a wheelchair, of course). This is what my mum always says when's she's out and about with me and DD, she thinks it's great, and I wish I didn't have to feel she was in a minority thinking that.

Anything that means a mum suffering PND or is lonely or anxious or shy can get out and about is surely a good thing, isn't it?

And I'm certainly not ageist, I'm probably older than many of the mums on here with older DC.

Any, apologies again for returning so late to the party.

georgettemagritte Fri 30-Aug-13 20:39:24

I don't think you are being unreasonable OP. Don't get the "it's his prerogative" stuff on this thread. He wouldn't legally be allowed to refuse entry to a person with guide dog or a wheelchair or mobility carriage - presumably they would be just as annoying and inconvenient to everyone else in the cafe. Would he tell a businessman with a large suitcase to park it outside? Or tell an elderly person to leave their stick or wheeled shopping basket? Why is a pram considered fair game? What about a disabled mother with a pram, does she get to bring it in or not?

Why isn't it discriminatory of him to ban prams? There are lots of things business owners are not allowed to do as "their prerogative", no matter how much they might like to. Don't really get why people think it's okay for small business owners to act like mini autocrats because it's "their business". It's not legally okay for the business owner to refuse service to particular categories of people just because he doesn't like them, or refuse to let someone breastfeed, or any number of other things.

MrsDeVere Fri 30-Aug-13 20:49:13

Thanks for coming back mrsO
I was not in a good mood earlier <you don't say!>

As it happens I don't think all this stuff is such a good idea. It seems to cause so much trouble. Bus spaces for example. There is only ever going to be enough room for one or two buggies. The amount of resentment those spaces cause from other parents as well as non parents makes them seem a waste of time.
Particularly when we have young healthy parents thinking that they cannot use a bus without them.

Its not that I want anyone to suffer. Buggy spaces, massive buggies and P&C spaces just don't seem that brilliant to me.

We had massive prams years ago but they were for one thing and our sling buggies were for other things. We didn't get tutted at and accused of being entitled like so many mums do today (unfairly IMO). We often got a hand onto the bus.
Unless the bastard bus driver shut the doors in our faces and drove away <smashes rose tinted glasses into smithereens>

Feeding and changing spaces, child seats in trollies etc they are good things IMO.

georgettemagritte Fri 30-Aug-13 20:50:08

(And NB there are lots of people who can't just use a sling - I have back problems which mean I can't wear one at all - what are people supposed to do then?)

MrsDeVere Fri 30-Aug-13 20:51:27

A pram is not a wheelchair.

georgettemagritte Fri 30-Aug-13 20:58:14

So tell me why it's okay to discriminate against a mother with a pram but not against someone with a wheelchair?

expatinscotland Fri 30-Aug-13 21:00:51

'So tell me why it's okay to discriminate against a mother with a pram but not against someone with a wheelchair?'

Because you can chose not to use a pram, or to get a folding buggy and fold it up. A person in a wheelchair can't chose to just fold up their wheelchair, not use it and walk about as they wish. Is it that hard to understand?

Bowlersarm Fri 30-Aug-13 21:01:33

Because it's not a disability to have a baby?

HugoDarling Fri 30-Aug-13 21:02:54

So tell me why it's okay to discriminate against a mother with a pram but not against someone with a wheelchair?

FFS. Seriously?!

MrsOakenshield Fri 30-Aug-13 21:18:04

because a person in a wheelchair has no choice but to use his or her chair.

MrsDV - I don't know. The bus spaces of course were campaigned for by disability groups, and so it's a handy aside that they can be used by buggies. In fact, in the 3 years of using London Transport with a buggy (a Bee, chosen because it's so narrow, and also you can push the handle right in so it doesn't stick out into the aisle), I've never had to move for a wheelchair (in fact, the only time I've seen a wheelchair user on public transport was during the paralympics), and only a couple of times have there been more buggies than space - though of course it's not such a problem in London as there's more buses, so if you have to wait or get off it's not such a big deal, I can imagine if you only have a bus ever half hour it's an utter drag.

P&C parking - well, the supermarkets shouldn't have put them so close to the shop, if they were at the back you'd get far fewer people using them who 'shouldn't'. But given that cars have got wider but spaces haven't, they are extremely useful. I've often parked in a non-P&C space and come back to find 2 mahoosive vehicles on either side of my weeny 3-door car, rendering it nigh-on impossible to get DD, or indeed myself fat arse back in the car, especially if DD was in her car seat. Not the end of the world, of course, but these things can sometimes tip you over the edge!

MrsDeVere Fri 30-Aug-13 21:42:29

But I do think they have contributed to attitudes like george's

I don't recall ever hearing anyone compare themselves to a disabled person because they had a baby before these things became embedded in our culture.

I don't think they are bad things but I do think they have led to some pretty weird attitudes.

People honestly think Blue badge spaces and P&C spaces are on a par.

It is weird.

Mutley77 Fri 30-Aug-13 22:00:47

forgetful I think you are being deliberately obtuse. Of course there is more risk to a baby of spillage if it is strapped to your front while you are drinking a hot drink than if baby is away from the hot drink in a pram. Yes there is still a risk to any child in a cafe but much lower if the coffee isn't over their head.

. And why are folded up prams seen as preferable? More of a trip hazard surely?

Mutley77 Fri 30-Aug-13 22:00:56

forgetful I think you are being deliberately obtuse. Of course there is more risk to a baby of spillage if it is strapped to your front while you are drinking a hot drink than if baby is away from the hot drink in a pram. Yes there is still a risk to any child in a cafe but much lower if the coffee isn't over their head.

. And why are folded up prams seen as preferable? More of a trip hazard surely?

Mimishimi Fri 30-Aug-13 22:08:48

Bugaboo's are not exactly tiny. They are closer to a Silver Cross than to a small foldable pushchair. For that reason, I think YABU. However, did he have seating outside? If not, it was quite unwelcoming but if he did, it makes sense. I used to work in a cafe and although I can't remember anyone ever bringing their pram inside, I'm fairly sure the owner (surly French grump) would have had the same sort of policy. However he did have outside seating and it was fine if they sat there.

MrsDeVere Fri 30-Aug-13 22:09:36

Have prams and buggies got harder to fold and stand up because its not something that has been seen as a priority?

I had some buggies that you could fold with one hand and once folded they would stand up on their own. I suppose it was something parents asked for or they wouldn't have been designed like that.

Those new prams have the basket on the side of the pram instead of underneath. I saw one and though 'brilliant idea' but they do make the prams seem that much bigger. So the advantage to the owner is not necessarily an advantage to anyone else IYSWIM.

MrsOakenshield Fri 30-Aug-13 22:22:22

depends which Bugaboo the OP has - a Bee is very narrow, a Cameleon bigger with a carrycot and a Donkey is really a double buggy. I don't really think any are as big as a Silver Cross (if you mean the big perambulator type).

When I was buggy shopping many were advertised as being collapsible with one hand, so I think that is still important. I know that a lot of the time I wouldn't have been able to collapse it due to the amount of shopping I might have had in the basket and hanging from the handles - so, if it had ever come to it, I would have got off the bus rather than collapse the buggy.

sameoldIggi Fri 30-Aug-13 22:32:11

More people want ones that face the parent. I think something in the design of that means hard to fold in one piece.

georgettemagritte Fri 30-Aug-13 22:39:23

I haven't compared someone with a baby to a disabled person, MrsDeVere: I asked why one form of discrimination is considered okay and the other not: a very different thing. A shopkeeper can't practise discrimination against certain categories of people because we accept that those offering business or services should not get to decide who they do or don't offer those services to based on their own prejudices. So (rightly IMO) B&B owners cannot refuse their services to gay couples; cafe owners can't prevent those with wheelchairs from coming in; landlords can no longer put up "no blacks no Irish" signs, and so on. Those kinds if discrimination are rightly now illegal. So why then should someone offering services be able to refuse them to other categories of people just because he feels like it? Is that not also discrimination? If the cafe owner decided he didn't like people carrying laptops or large red bags or wheeling a suitcase would he be at liberty to demand those be left outside too? If you had a few large shopping bags and he said you couldn't have coffee unless you left them outside would you think that was okay on the ground that that was his prerogative?

georgettemagritte Fri 30-Aug-13 22:43:05

If someone offers a business service shouldn't they offer it to all, not just who they feel they want to serve?

MrsOakenshield Fri 30-Aug-13 22:48:12

I think he would, george. Because things such as large bags and indeed babies are people's choices. Whereas to be disabled, or gay, or Irish, is intrinsic - you don't get to choose. It would probably be a bad business choice of the cafe owner, but not illegal.

There is a fundamental difference between having a baby that you have chosen to have and that you have chosen to take about with you in a certain way, and being black or Irish. Neither, of course, are 'wrong'. For what it's worth I think the cafe owner in this case was BU and a bit shortsighted, but that's up to him.

I found it interesting how this contrasted with the OP's experience in Holland. Interestingly, a cafe near me (which is located in total nappy valley territory) was very well known for being anti-baby and child - the last time I drove past it I noticed it has closed down. It seems likely these 2 facts are connected.

MrsDeVere Fri 30-Aug-13 22:53:44

Of course he could say 'no bags' . Lots of shops round here do that. You have to leave your bag or shopping trolley at the door.

If a cafe owner wants to ban laptops he can do that to. He might lose business but its up to him. Mobiles, laptops, rucksacks etc are often banned in cafes.
I worked in a club where you were not allowed to wear hats or trainers. It was right bang in the middle of the 80s. All those rude boys were NOT happy. They still had to check their hats and change their shoes though.

Telling someone there is no room for buggies is not discrimination. Telling someone that women with babies are not allowed may be.

Comparing the OP to someone being turned away because they are in a wheelchair is daft. Its totally different.

georgettemagritte Fri 30-Aug-13 22:57:09

But that's interesting in itself though, isn't it - that people feel they are entitled to be openly discriminatory against certain people as long as it seems that the reason for the discrimination is within someone's control. But is that any better? Can that person go back and make a different choice so that they don't get discriminated against?
There are lots of grey areas, aren't there; and lots of areas where people used to think it perfectly all right to discriminate and we don't now think it's all right any more. Being of a particular religion is a choice, but we don't think it's okay to refuse services to someone because of it. Or because they wear their hair a certain way, or have a tattoo, or speak with a particular accent, and so on.

georgettemagritte Fri 30-Aug-13 23:07:14

But MrsDeVere, do you think that's fine? A buggy may not be the same as a wheelchair, but a pram with a 5 week old baby is not the same as wearing a baseball cap in a nightclub either. The principle is: do you think a business owner should be able to refuse his services to someone through no fault of their own, because he doesn't like something about them? A dog or a shopping cart can be left outside, but not a small baby in a pram.

MrsDeVere Fri 30-Aug-13 23:08:09

Its not discrimination to ask someone not to bring a large object into a shop unless the request would bar someone from making use of a service.

That does not include prams, laptops, large bags or shopping trollies.

Just as banning dogs is not discrimination against dog lovers but it would be discrimination against people with assistance dogs.

MrsDeVere Fri 30-Aug-13 23:08:34

You can take a baby out of a pram.

atrcts Fri 30-Aug-13 23:08:59

I don't think that was unreasonable of you. Like someone else said, most places have to be reasonably wheelchair accessible, and a 5 week old sleeping baby is really understandable to want to leave undisturbed. God knows you're likely to be having enough trouble putting a newborn off to sleep at night, so to play that game in the day seems unreasonable.

I use a sling a lot and drinking hot drinks overhead can be a bit dodgy. I've ha a few food spills over time and luckily it's cold enough not to worry, but it's still less than ideal. Plus you'd wake the baby by putting them in a sling and then taking then back out again.

However, they're probably afraid that if they let one in, they have to let all in. And maybe some people will start to take the pee a bit.

I personally would explain the deal to you, then find you the best corner for "just this once" - making it clear its only because your sleeping baby is so new and that you're being allowed as a favour.

MrsDeVere Fri 30-Aug-13 23:09:13

The objection is to the pram, not the baby.

usualsuspect Fri 30-Aug-13 23:09:23

He wasn't banning the baby,just the pram.

slightlysoupstained Fri 30-Aug-13 23:17:24

See, this is the thing. OP has spent lots of money there. This is not a cafe with hundreds of people passing through every day, this is a cafe in a fairly out of town area with limited clientele.

Any decent owner would have bleeding recognised her and thought of doing what atrcts suggests. Blooming 'eck, I mean DP gets asked for "the usual" after four days of visits in the middle of Sydney FGS. Isn't recognising and cultivating locals just good business?

Obviously his choice etc, but it does seem a bit daft.

ukatlast Fri 30-Aug-13 23:18:02

YANBU I still boycott places with 'no buggies allowed' as I feel it discriminates against young mothers like you just trying to get out once in a while.

ukatlast Fri 30-Aug-13 23:19:09

....because like she says she has to protect said baby from hot drink spillages.

MrsDeVere Fri 30-Aug-13 23:19:54

It is daft and it doesn't always make business sense.
It is not anything approaching the same as banning wheelchairs though.

BeauNatt Fri 30-Aug-13 23:26:52

On your own, how on earth are you meant to fold a pram while holding a five week old? Where do you put the baby while you're eating? This thread is descending into further impractical suggestions.

BackforGood Fri 30-Aug-13 23:50:15

With your other hand Beau. I mean, obviously it is easier with 2, but that's what posters were saying up thread, it's what parents have always done.
I'm not saying it's not a lot easier for young parents nowadays, and I think that's brilliant, but it doesn't mean what's always been done is suddenly impossible.

BeauNatt Fri 30-Aug-13 23:58:37

It would be impossible to fold the pram I have (especially with the newborn lie-flat seat) one handed while holding a 5 week old. Most of the prams I see round here likewise (including the OPs I imagine though I don't have that one).

IfIonlyhadsomesleep Sat 31-Aug-13 00:06:53

It may or may not be good business sense to ban buggies. It is not discrimination.

BusterKeaton Sat 31-Aug-13 00:12:33

The Equality Act ban on age discrimination does not apply to children. It is perfectly legal, for instance, for the Royal Opera House to ban children under a certain age or for shops to say no more than 3 school children at once, etc.

DontmindifIdo Sat 31-Aug-13 07:43:03

I think a lot if the suggestions are great (although the suggestions of buying another easier to fold buggy seems rather decedent just for going in Cafes - ds is 3.5, dd 12 weeks, I have yet to go on a bus with a buggy, if somewhere isn't walkable I'll drive, so "ease of use on public transport" isn't something I've ever needed to factor in for buggy purchase, a lot of people don't and a lot never need a second buggy, I've no idea just how quickly I can fold up mine, I've never had to do it in a rush, and never while also holding a baby)

But the point remains, unless you were desperately in need of food, why bother thinking up ways you can put yourself out in order to give a cafe business? If a cafe owner doesn't really want you in there (which is what he's saying, asking her to leave a pram outside a virtually empty cafe, it's not like it would be in the other customers way) then just go somewhere more welcoming, or keep your money for something nice.

No business has a right to your custom, they should be working hard to win you spending your money with them, not the other way round.

CheungFun Sat 31-Aug-13 07:59:30

I found out local M&S cafe was great when DS was a small baby, the staff were nice, there was plenty if space to wheel him in in the pram and move a chair or too and they even has bottle warmers!

It took me a while, but you end up going to different places to eat/shop purely on the basis of 'is there a big clean toilet with nappy changing facilities' and 'is there room to park the pram'.

ThisIsYourSong Sat 31-Aug-13 08:19:01

Aw that's sad for you OP. Our small (London) local cafe went out of their way to make room for us on a busy Saturday on our first trip out with our young twins and I'm sure our pram was bigger than yours! Unfortunately people don't always act the way you'd hope when you are isolated, exhausted, fragile and have a young baby. It's a hard lesson to learn but most people are lovely; some aren't, for whatever reason.

SilverApples Sat 31-Aug-13 08:42:37

'I had some buggies that you could fold with one hand and once folded they would stand up on their own. I suppose it was something parents asked for or they wouldn't have been designed like that.'

There you go, MrsDV, the original folding buggy, invented by a grandfather to help hos daughter.
I had a 1990s one that was invaluable when I was travelling on public transport and long distance trains with DD. Didn't have a car, you could fold the buggy and hook it over your arm.
Not suitable for under 6m, but I had a sling and another small 0-6m buggy that also folded. Can't remember the make because that sort of thing was less important then it seems.

www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/objects/CngWUrn0QmuY1R4XpU-zWA

SilverApples Sat 31-Aug-13 08:47:23

'On your own, how on earth are you meant to fold a pram while holding a five week old? Where do you put the baby while you're eating? '

You hold the baby on your shoulder with one and and use your foot and the other hand to fold the buggy. I did it hundreds of times, and I'm not a magician. confused

JakeBullet Sat 31-Aug-13 08:52:20

Fold pram and hold baby.,,if its too difficult then there are usually legions of elderly ladies in coffee shops who would jump at the chance of a cuddle with the baby while you fold the pram up.

It's a nightmare accessing places with a bulky pram or even a not so bulky pram. Spare a thought for wheelchair users who don't have the carrot of increasing mobility to look forward to. It's the one time I got an idea of how awful and inaccessible life is if you are reliant on a wheelchair. sad

teacherwith2kids Sat 31-Aug-13 08:57:25

Those of us who routinely used public transport, who used cars but had car seats that fitted in the car and didn't come out to clip onto pushchair bases (due to selecting car seat on basis of top safety record rather than anything else, plus moving countries so needing to meet 2 sets of regulations with different car seats), or lived in houses where wheeling a pushchair into the front door wasn't possible did the 'baby out, pushchair folded' routine many times each day ... though i can see that if you start with an assumption that you and your pram will be welcome anywhere without folding it, whatever the inconvenience to others, this might be something that will be more difficult because you won't have taken it into account when buying said pram.

Odd, how expectations change soooo much over only a few years, really. Things that I, and everyone I knew, just 'did' are now seen to be 'impossible'.

BoffinMum Sat 31-Aug-13 09:02:36

Ultimately whatever the legal rights and wrongs of this, the cafe owner was behaving in a pretty shit way to a new mother with a young baby. Yes, she could have been a more confident new mother, or a more practically minded new mother, but here's the thing - why the fuck should she have to be so soon after becoming a parent? It's hard, coping in the early days, and working out how to get by. Not everyone gets it right all the time. This is where compassion and kindness would have gone a long way. Someone who is so dismissive of a customer, rather than seeking to work out how to make them feel welcome and valued, sounds like the type of proprietor who won't be in business for long. Plus it's easy for people in general to have a pop at young mums as they know the young mum will generally come off the worst (I see it all the time and I have been on the receiving end of it). I do hate middle England sometimes. I would recommend slamming him articulately on TripAdvisor and patronising somewhere that likes you, making friends with the staff there instead.

BoffinMum Sat 31-Aug-13 09:05:00

By the way a mini MN campaign for smaller, lighter, cheaper strollers might be in the national interest. wink

QisforQuestion Sat 31-Aug-13 09:30:22

After a sleepless night with a teething baby, I am not really able to formulate any clever contributions. However I think yanbu. Mothers with newborns are definitely in a category of people that should be treated with courtesy, support and friendliness. They have to deal with a range of challenges night and day, hormones are all over the shop and they are indeed looking after the most vulnerable of beings, their babies. They may be vulnerable themselves due to sleep deprivation, baby being unwell, super clingy or even pnd so I really think being welcoming and helpful towards new all mums shows basic humanity.

Sod everyone who thinks mums with prams are entitled.
Georgette I totally agree with your arguments.

QisforQuestion Sat 31-Aug-13 09:31:11

Boffin, well said!

QisforQuestion Sat 31-Aug-13 09:56:55

Teacherwith2kids, i am so tired of the "oh in my time we had it so much harder and we coped, aren't I great?" lamentations. Times change, context changes, attitudes to inclusivenesd and discrimination evolve, and yes, products (i.e. prams) change. But well done for folding your pram all those years. grin

teacherwith2kids Sat 31-Aug-13 10:15:20

Q, I am just surprised how QUICKLY these things evolve, that is all (my oldest is 12, and my youngest 10, so 'my time' is really very recent in the general scheme of things).

The pushchair that I had, though, is still on the market, so it is perhaps attitudes that change rather than products? Or maybe that attitudes vary within and across different groups (ie like-minded mums tend to congregate together) so 'norms' will vary very widely even at the same point in time? There are others here who do - at the moment - what I did 'in my time' and see it as 'normal'.

QisforQuestion Sat 31-Aug-13 11:06:13

Teacher, I can see your point. My own pram is so easily collapsible, it's a dream grin but when I am out and about the shopping basket at the bottom is loaded with shit nappy bag, water bottle, jackets, wet wipes and the odd bit of shopping; there is no way I would/could collapse it just to have a quick coffee. Also, a five week old baby is likely to be asleep, not a great time to drag them out of the pram, sort of defeats the purpose of a much needed coffee break. How about mums who have had a c-section and aren't quite as mobile yet but want to get out of the house so not to loose their mind been there done that.

I just don't understand the mum and baby/toddler bashing that seems to enter some conversations. I have always given way to mums with prams or slings, given up my seat to pregnant ladies, always asked if they needed help on public transport way before I had kids myself. It just seems to be a kind and normal thing to do. Yes, being pregnant or having small kids is perhaps nothing out of the ordinary, you don't get a badge I know, but it's still a bloody tough thing to do sometimes. So someone being kind and welcoming to a mum with a newborn can make a world of difference.

rant over

teacherwith2kids Sat 31-Aug-13 11:23:22

Btw,

I'm not saying that the coffee shop owner couldn't have behaved better, just that collapsing a pushchair is possible. Perhaps if all the people who came into his coffee shop had been courteous and conscious of the needs of all his customers in the past, he would be much more understanding of OP's particular circumstances? He may have had a long series of unfortunate incidents that have led to him making a blanket ban....

Lazyjaney Sat 31-Aug-13 11:25:45

Ultimately whatever the legal rights and wrongs of this, the cafe owner was behaving in a pretty shit way to a new mother with a young baby

A new baby is not an entry ticket to an exalted state of being.

Our local one is tiny too, all the Mummies go there after dropping kids off at local school, its an obstacle course with various prams, buggies and whatnot, and itbalso means people just can't sit down - so everyone else avoids it like the plague, I suspect their takings are much lower than if they made everyone leave their gubbins outside.

Go to another coffee shop.

slightlysoupstained Sat 31-Aug-13 11:29:51

Lazyjaney Why is simple human kindness = being treated as an exalted being?

FFS, kindness should be default behaviour in a civilised society, not some extra special option only for special people.

DontmindifIdo Sat 31-Aug-13 11:34:01

Lazyjaney - why do you presume the mothers will still go and leave their buggies outside, rather than just going somewhere else altogether?

candycoatedwaterdrops Sat 31-Aug-13 11:53:48

I don't think that expecting to be able to take a pram into a coffee shop is entitled but it most certainly is not discrimination. hmm

candycoatedwaterdrops Sat 31-Aug-13 11:54:42

So, a shop owner should let a pram in the shop even if breaches fire regs just be kind?!

nennypops Sat 31-Aug-13 11:59:32

If it's a small shop, it's perfectly reasonable for the owner to ask you to leave the pram outside.

slightlysoupstained Sat 31-Aug-13 12:17:18

candycoated That's a ridiculous strawman.

The owner could perfectly well have been kind and explained problems. Being able to say no without making the other person feel like shit is a) prerequisite for being decent human being and B) prerequisite for being good at that "customer service" thing.

Bowlersarm Sat 31-Aug-13 12:31:03

grin @ ridiculous strawman

I still don't know why OP couldn't have parked buggy outside, and carried baby inside.

ThisIsYourSong Sat 31-Aug-13 12:38:43

Who would seriously wake a sleeping 5 week old? I certainly wouldn't.

Plus it opens the cafe owner up to the risk of the even more alarming (whispers) breastfeeding shock

BeauNatt Sat 31-Aug-13 12:56:13

And still people are saying leave the pram outside! Where do you live where that would be an option? Seriously? These things are very valuable and get nicked all the time. Just what you need when out on your own with a 5 week old hmm

FrigginRexManningDay Sat 31-Aug-13 13:01:26

Buy a bike lock. If you get a maxi cosi and adapters all you need to leave outside is a chassis.

They still do those buggys where the car seat clicks onto it for fairly cheap. You wouldn't need the pram with you if you were feeding,breast or bottle.

Pobblewhohasnotoes Sat 31-Aug-13 13:25:06

Actually I think it can be hard enough getting out with a 5 week old. I think if it was me I would have disappeared home again in a hormonal mess.

OP I have a bugaboo too (it's a Bee) and its not any bigger than lots of strollers out there. Go find a different cafe, one where you are welcome. Maybe try a sling? I used to have to lock my Bee outside the GP surgery and even then I worried that it would be nicked.

QisforQuestion Sat 31-Aug-13 13:25:40

Haha thisisyoursong, quite right, all sorts of minefields to navigate for unsuspecting mums and babies.

Fwiw, and ime as a grumpy old bat pedestrian, cafe goer, car driver, dog walker etc. most people act in an entitled way not just mums with prams. People rarely watch out thereby pushing other people off the pavement, swearing insults at other car drivers, letting kids run riot at the restaurant or cinema letting their dog jump on tiny toddlers, not giving way to elderly people etc. etc.

Maybe we should all try and look a bit beyond our own transient needs and capabilities because most of us will at one point or other in our lives feel vulnerable or less mobile and then someone else's generosity rather than righteousness will make all the difference.

Sorry to sound like a preaching twat, but still!

BoffinMum Sat 31-Aug-13 14:56:37

This is the flip side of the feminist movement, the expectation that every pregnant woman and new mother will be able to take it all in her stride without batting an eyelid, otherwise she is somehow inadequate, or 'not trying hard enough' or 'not organised enough'. The argument that pregnancy and the postpartum period do not constitute an 'exalted state'. It's linked to leaving women alone without partners behind curtains on a shared ward moaning in distress in early labour (like I saw at Addenbrookes), leaving women who have had sections un-nursed and covered in blood, leaving women wide eyed without sleep to cope a long way away from their extended families, and tutting if women are finding it a struggle to cope on top of all the hormonal changes and so on. Show a bit of compassion, you rotten lot. It may be normal but it is certainly not easy, and if you have found it easy, then you were bloody lucky.

Mouseface Sat 31-Aug-13 14:59:22

DS uses a 'Snazzi' wheelchair which weighs 25kg but it's rather slim, tall but slim.

I can't fold or lift it (I'm disabled too) so taking him to a cafe like that would be a no go for us, plus I wouldn't want to leave it outside, even locked up because it was 'made' for him and on prescription IYSWIM? It's not ours to replace.

Now you know how this cafe works, use a sling, or find a way to have a nice, hot coffee safely, and add in a cake, take a friend so they can hold baby for you or find somewhere else.

It sounds as though you just wanted to sit down whilst baby was finally asleep, have some food and a hot drink, five minutes peace...... we've all been there.

candycoatedwaterdrops Sat 31-Aug-13 15:15:05

No one said the man was rude to the OP, just that he refused entry which he has every right to do. Yes, it's annoying but not discriminatory!

SilverApples Sat 31-Aug-13 15:17:50

Wow Boffin, is that the flipside of feminism? I thought inadequate care on labour and maternity wards was the result of lack of funds, understaffing and excessive paperwork.
But it's really that nurses and their bosses think women should STFU and be tough?

BoffinMum Sat 31-Aug-13 15:21:28

In the cases I saw the mws couldn't be arsed. They lacked compassion (with one exception). They were offhand with the women and told them off for being needy. I was shock

BoffinMum Sat 31-Aug-13 15:23:26

I appreciate they may have got that way because of overwork, btw, but I think it is linked to an expectation women can and should always 'man up'. The sort of attitude that expects pg women to stand on trains and so on.

QisforQuestion Sat 31-Aug-13 17:31:35

Boffin, I so very much agree with your posts on this thread! Thank you for describing it so well [flower].

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