To think that someone who's finally had a 'much wanted' baby shouldn't go on about how hard it all is!!

(153 Posts)

MNHQ have commented on this thread.

MrsBramStoker Mon 26-Aug-13 23:29:14

Ok, before I get completely and utterly flamed (am expecting it!), a close friend of mine had a a series of miscarriages,but in end wasn't trying too long for a dc (we have friends who've been trying to conceive for say, 10 years) but all the family were very sad for them, and very involved n their grief, etc.

5 months ago they had a ds, a lovely little thing. He's a vey good baby, very easy going, a very good sleeper, etc. But all I hear is 'oh god it's so hard, what a challenge, we've finally gone over the hard part, etc etc' And there seems to be major tension in their marriage, etc. my dh went out for a drink with the husband and he said its been really rough on them, really effected their relationship, etc.

TO make matters worse, and another reason why I think I'm not being fully objective, and probably feel vey annoyed about this, is that a much loved and darling mutual friend, had a beautiful baby girl at the time of this girls miscarriage and said baby girl was practically ignored ie. didn't come to visit for about 8 months, because they were going through their pain of misscarriage. (They live in same town!) Turns out said beautiful girl 's mother had a really horrific time in hospital, before and and labour, but apparently it was nothing to this pain of what they were going through. Maybe fertility issues give you total tunnel vision please enlighten me, I mean that in a sympathetically way. All other friends, family members, called to hospital etc, but said misscarriage couple didn't even acknowledge it. I know there's a lot of resentment between said mother of misscarriage and mother of beautiful baby. Esp as a few issues with this baby still, development wise, etc.

Sorry for annoying post but have had a glass of wine and should have given names to characters in story!

I know posters will saying something like 'are people with fertility problems not entitled to talk about the difficulties of parenthood!' Of course they are, but we've all been there! My first dd had a potentially serious illness when born, turned it ok in end thank god, we also have Dtwins, not easy either, so if I'm honest, bit cheesed off with the moaning and 'woe is me' crap from those who finally have the much wanted healthy child in the end!! Who's right? Am I being a total bitch?

(Puttin on helmet, ready for a right pelting, pardon me in advance for wine and irrational ranting!)

OhshitwhatnowagIn Mon 26-Aug-13 23:30:45



CatAmongThePigeons Mon 26-Aug-13 23:31:46

hmm oookay...

YABU - but at least you know it. Becoming a parent for the first time can be a real shock that I don't think any wanting can really prepare you for.

Yabu. Very.

118sbigmoustache Mon 26-Aug-13 23:32:54

YABU. Someone who tried for years for a baby is just as entitled to moan about it as someone who got pregnant first try.

gordyslovesheep Mon 26-Aug-13 23:33:10

yab UTTERLY U - you have no idea what it's like to spend the whole pregnancy so terrified your baby wont make it that you are in no way emotionally or practically prepared to bring a live baby home

I found my first baby hard - because I never imagined or allowed my self to dream she would ever be REAL

GroupieGirl Mon 26-Aug-13 23:33:26


WorraLiberty Mon 26-Aug-13 23:34:07

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LauraChant Mon 26-Aug-13 23:34:52

Yabu and you know it. The baby might seem easy to you. People always said my two seemed lovely because they slept all day but my God, the nights.

thebody Mon 26-Aug-13 23:35:26

I think its best to accept that pain and stress is what the sufferer says it is and not what anyone else thinks it is.

it is annoying when you get one person who seems to moan more than others who have it harder but that's how some people are.

MidniteScribbler Mon 26-Aug-13 23:35:29

Wow. And you claim to be a friend to this person?

trixymalixy Mon 26-Aug-13 23:35:31

YABU, but you know you are.

It is bloody hard being a parent. In some ways I think if you want it so much and have built it up in your mind then the reality of it might seem a lot harder.

picklechops Mon 26-Aug-13 23:35:33

My first ever biscuit

You have no idea what they are going through, she could have horrific pnd.

Stop judging, start being a friend

Fairylea Mon 26-Aug-13 23:35:53

Yabu. And (as someone who has fertility issues) not everyone has a baby to have a "baby" ... don't get me wrong, I love both my dc to pieces but fuck - the baby stage is HARD. I enjoy the toddler and beyond stages, and survive the baby year!

Everyone is allowed to moan how hard having a baby is. Even a much wanted baby. It doesn't mean they want him any less.

GeneHuntsMistress Mon 26-Aug-13 23:35:55

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notapizzaeater Mon 26-Aug-13 23:36:14


We had ds after many IVF procedures (over 10 years) but quite frankly when he was 6 weeks old I suggested to my dh we went back to the clinic to give him to a couple in the waiting room as they wanted one and quite frankly I wanted my "old" life back ! Obv now I cringe at this but I genuinely did not realise how much it takes out of you ...

FootOfOurStairs Mon 26-Aug-13 23:36:28


We struggled to conceive after a hideous ectopic and I vowed to never moan of were ever successful.I'm pretty sure I should have mpaned a lot more and let people know I was struggling, and asked for help. Parenting isn't easier if you've struggled to get there - odd logic really.

MsVestibule Mon 26-Aug-13 23:36:55

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thecatfromjapan Mon 26-Aug-13 23:37:06

It's not about a helmet, or about being "flamed": that's a childish way of simply disavowing what you know you are saying to yourself. You are being mean-spirited thinking these things. You do know, don't you, that women get torn up inside when they discover "much wanted, much loved" doesn't necessarily mean "easy ever after"? The guilt can tip women over into PNA/PND.

Be kind.

Tight-fistededness when it comes to love for others and charity is not attractive. I swear it gives you premature wrinkles. It always comes out, however much you think you are hiding those mean thoughts behind a smile.

IfIonlyhadsomesleep Mon 26-Aug-13 23:37:14

Is it only unacceptable to moan if your baby is only a bit wanted and only longed for for a short time? Or unacceptable to moan at all? Just wanted to know whether I am allowed to be a bit less than saintly occasionally since we had all our three after extensive fertility treatment and a couple of miscarriages?
Yabu. Not because you are frustrated with your friends moaning. But because you aren't treating her as the normal first time mother that she now is.

maddening Mon 26-Aug-13 23:38:33

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Nanny0gg Mon 26-Aug-13 23:40:12

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maddening Mon 26-Aug-13 23:40:13

ps each of her babies that were lost at each mc were much wanted

thecatfromjapan Mon 26-Aug-13 23:40:19

By the way, your children sound young. You have soooo much more time for things to go badly wrong. Then I guess you will find out how much grace under pressure you are capable of. I can promise you now that you really have no yardstick as yet.

lisianthus Mon 26-Aug-13 23:40:37

YABVVU. You refer to them as having "fertility issues". They had several babies die! If your baby died, wouldn't you perhaps have a few "issues" as you put it with seeing other people with healthy children for a while? I would have thought you might have had a bit more empathy seeing as your child had health problems.

LifeofPo Mon 26-Aug-13 23:40:55

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

chesterberry Mon 26-Aug-13 23:41:41

Isn't it normal for new parents to find it hard?. My daughter is coming up for three weeks and, as much as I adore her and am loving being a mum, it is so intense devoting myself to meeting her every need 24/7 and sometimes I am finding it hard. When talking to close friends and family I have been open and honest about the aspects about it I am finding difficult. I don't think I would be less likely to seek out support or share my feelings with somebody if I had had fertility problems or a long wait to have a child.

Also, everyone's situation is different. Maybe they really are finding it more difficult than other parents, or at least more difficult than they thought it would be. Even if they have an easy-going baby if they are having problems with their marriage and getting on with each other that can make anything seem more challenging. If they have had a number of miscarriages before this baby they may also still be grieving, having a healthy baby may even have made that grief feel worse as they ache for the children they could have had.

There's a good chance there are lots of things going on you don't know about which are making things more difficult for them, it sounds they are trying to reach out to friends for support and it's a shame you're not available to give it to them.

Auntfini Mon 26-Aug-13 23:42:21


maybe3x Mon 26-Aug-13 23:43:10

What Gordy said and everyone else too. YABVVU. FWIW after 3 mc I couldn't deal with visiting a friends new baby either, they understood and it wasn't an issue.

Tortington Mon 26-Aug-13 23:43:12

yay sisterhood, alive and well i see

MrsBramStoker Mon 26-Aug-13 23:43:38

All I can say, when reading back this post is how shitty I sound, and the I've a lot it learn.

Am sorry for lack of understanding.

Im honestly thinking too much of her treatment with other friends new baby.

Tbh, I feel bad and uncomfortable for both sides.
Feel ashamed now of op.

spg1983 Mon 26-Aug-13 23:44:12

I had a major case of baby blues because I felt that I wasn't entitled to admit to how hard I was finding having a baby. 12 years ago I was told I'd never have children and it has taken that long to finally have my 6 month old dd. I adore her and appreciate my little miracle every day but it was attitudes like the OP's that made me feel awful. I felt torn between being eternally grateful I'd finally had a baby and feeling guilty for not being 110% energetic, ecstatic and perfect every minute of the day, after all, I've had all this time to gear up for it and should be "supermum" but I'm just average, I think. Please don't put this kind of idea into your friend's head - it's bad enough when it's in your own mind let alone when other people start hinting at it too.

gordyslovesheep Mon 26-Aug-13 23:44:28

bless OP- you live and learn - go give your friend a hug tomorrow and think no more about it x

SunshineBossaNova Mon 26-Aug-13 23:44:35


VisualCharades Mon 26-Aug-13 23:44:52

"Said miscarriage couple" sweet Jesus how callous

IfIonlyhadsomesleep Mon 26-Aug-13 23:45:34

Oh, and please don't belittle how long she was trying for. A series of miscarriages suggests at least a year and when you're ttc with every expectation of failure, believe me, it doesn't need to be ten years to feel like a lifetime. In real life, I play it down because we came out the other side with our three beautiful children but at the time, I remember being really angry because we had to miss a month of treatment because of Christmas. That month felt like an eternity.

gordyslovesheep Mon 26-Aug-13 23:45:41

oh and yes I had a major case of baby blues because I felt that I wasn't entitled to admit to how hard I was finding having a baby THIS with knobs on xxxx

SunshineBossaNova Mon 26-Aug-13 23:46:50

X posted with you OP - I'd take Gordy's advice smile x

ShadowSummer Mon 26-Aug-13 23:47:32


I think you know fine well that a child being much wanted doesn't automatically mean that adjusting to being a parent is super easy.

IfIonlyhadsomesleep Mon 26-Aug-13 23:47:38

No prob,op. Thats the point of mumsnet. Sleep well.

Conina Mon 26-Aug-13 23:49:07

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Jinsei Mon 26-Aug-13 23:49:12

YABVU but I guess you know that now!

WannabeFayeMouse Mon 26-Aug-13 23:50:05

sometimes you have to write a thing out to make sense of it in your mind. Good on you OP for admitting you were in the wrong. Hope the thread can just stop now.

Erm, actually, OP, YAN necessarily BU. From what you have posted about this couple's treatment of another friend it sounds that they are possibly a pair of self-obsessed whangers. Suffering, grief and loss don't always stop people from being selfish, lazy, spiteful or stupid if they were any of those things already. It sounds to me as though you possibly know this couple to be whiny and selfish anyway and that's what's affecting your perception of them, not just the specific circumstances of them having a new baby and finding it hard.

PaulSmenis Mon 26-Aug-13 23:57:29

Doesn't everyone find that a baby is hard work? YABVU and do you really expect a couple who have just gone through a miscarriage to visit someone who has just had a baby? Cut them some slack.

My friend has just found out she is pregnant after trying for a long time. I wouldn't begrudge her having a good old moan after the baby arrives.

frogspoon Tue 27-Aug-13 00:01:13

YABU, but you already knew that.

They went through a very difficult time with their series of miscarriages. It isn't surprising that they would find it hard to cope seeing a baby girl when they lost a child that would be a similar age.

Having been through all of that at finally having a baby may have reinforced their grief for their miscarried children, making it more of a struggle to cope with. She may also had pnd.

TheBleedinObvious Tue 27-Aug-13 00:02:12

Maybe now that you feel bad about being so mean spirited, you could go and visit your friend and give her some support.

Sometimes I suspect parents who have a ''much wanted baby' may have a much longer way to fall as they have 'idolised' their future family so much. The reality may be a shock. Also throw the fear and grief into the mix and it is not surprising they find adjusting to their new life very difficult.

thebody Tue 27-Aug-13 00:05:01

the op has re posted.

TeaJunky Tue 27-Aug-13 00:08:59


My Inlaws ALWAYS comment on how dd2 is 'such a a good baby'. Yes, she is when twelve of you stand around her, cooing at her, waiting your turn to pick her up and generally doting on her.

Not so much when she's alone at home with me and I have dinner to cook/a pile of ironing to get through
/ whatever. And whenever I say she's not that good, they make me feel ..well, a bit like I did when I read this post hmm

YABVU. Children are hard full stop, good sleeper or not. I love my children and can moan sometimes.

Maybe if people were less judgy and accepted parents were humans, it would be fine. Can't we moan about work- because we are lucky to have a job, so should just hold it all in?

DaleyBump Tue 27-Aug-13 00:16:12

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PeriodMath Tue 27-Aug-13 00:21:35

I always wonder if people who've had fertility issues and have been through the wringer in order to have children feel they can't complain in case people think they're ungrateful.

You've sort of answered that for me hmm

I think nobody can ever know how hard having a baby is until it happens. It doesn't matter how long or how hard you had to try to get one.

MaMattoo Tue 27-Aug-13 00:32:00

Becoming a parent is always a shock, no matter what went in before- prepared/unprepared/ wanted/oops/ easy conception/l&d..all by the by.
Yabu but not flaming not needed..!!smile

MusicalEndorphins Tue 27-Aug-13 00:36:23

As far as this person complaining, it is par for the course with new parents. Plus some people just complain more more than others.

missingmumxox Tue 27-Aug-13 00:49:12

OMG! of course they can complain!!! losing much too be loved Babies does not mean you can't moan!! it is part of normal parenting which they are...go have another word with yourself!

Complaining about how hard it is to bring up a baby is a right of parenthood, and given that the couple are just as much parents as everyone else, they should be allowed to participate in this 'new-parent-ritual' as much as they are entitled to whinge about the amount of stuff a child needs for their first time at school, and the cost of childcare, and teething, and pooey nappies leaking and pretty much anything else that goes with having a child.

TheFillyjonk Tue 27-Aug-13 00:58:39

Just out of interest, OP - are you actually the parent of the "beautiful baby"?

NapaCab Tue 27-Aug-13 01:13:27

'The miscarriage couple'?
'mother of the miscarriage'?


Just for that alone YABVU and I don't care how much wine you've had.

It's nasty unfeeling people like you who gave me such a hard time when I had an MC.

Just leave this 'miscarriage couple' alone. I'm sure they are doing fine without your judgmental input and desperate sad need for gossip. I really hope they aren't deluded enough to think they are your friends. You owe it to them to cut contact if you really have such unpleasant views about them behind their backs.

Motheatenwardrobeofdross Tue 27-Aug-13 01:29:00

I think you are BU because I know lots of people who have had fertility issues including myself and it is heartbreaking and soul destroying.
We tried for children for 7 years. It nearly destroyed our marriage and my mental health. My first son was born with a fractured skull and during my second pregnancy I was told to abort my son at 27 weeks (not in the UK) because he had parts of his brain missing. I didn't do it, had a living hell of a pregnancy and my son was then found to be perfect at birth. In between all that I have had a couple of very early miscarriages. I am not woe is me about it because none of my friends know about any of this, or they may know a bit about some of it.

I've had some very bad times in my life including the near break up of my marriage and losing my mum suddenly when I was a kid. However, the fertility issues were the worst thing I have ever dealt with. Instead of being judgemental, try having some compassion.

DanicaJones Tue 27-Aug-13 01:31:26

YABU. Having mcs doesn't somehow switch off normal emotions about parenting. Why would it?

josiejay Tue 27-Aug-13 01:44:45

YABU. This is your FRIEND you are talking about. Your friend who has been through a really tough time followed by one of the most life changing experiences people go through. You should be supporting her.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 27-Aug-13 01:56:53

Parenting can be hard, no matter what obstacles you had to overcome to conceive.

emblosion Tue 27-Aug-13 03:00:46

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FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 27-Aug-13 03:34:52

FGS she posted ages ago that she is sorry for the post and feels bad

Platinumstart Tue 27-Aug-13 04:11:45

I'm going to try not to flame and instead explain why you are BVVVU.

After I lost my stillborn DS I didn't go to a wedding because I knew I would t have been able to bear seeing the best man and his week old baby (he was a friend). I knew it would literally break my heart. That was 4 mths after the event.

I thought it was the better thing to do rather than being possibly obviously emotional on someone else's day. The idea that may have been interpreted as in some way selfish has me raging

I can also tell you that my subsequent pregnancy and DC was fraught. Having had two relatively straight forward pregnancies/babies prior to the loss of my son nothing can prepare you for the terror that this little baby might be snatched away at any time.

I hardly dared breath throughout my pregnancy - and I hated myself for it. I knew how wonderful pregnancy could be. I'd experienced it. But I could no longer relate. It made me anxious, sick and miserable. All over a baby wanted more than you can possibly imagine.

And you know what was worst? When my darling DC arrived safe and well and those feelings didn't vanish as I imagined that they would. That I continued to be this anxious, stressed almost neurotic woman who I didn't recognise. I couldn't leave my DC for a second. She literally did not leave my side for a year.

And this pain was compounded that people, and I know they did, expected me to be fucking grateful.

LovesBeingOnHoliday Tue 27-Aug-13 04:20:04

No need to feel ashamed op. most people are caught up in what they see and feel. It can make couples very tunnel visioned and it is all consuming, but that doesn't mean you are prepared for what you have wished for.

Mimishimi Tue 27-Aug-13 04:21:22

YABU and it's probably even a bit more difficult for them because they would have had all these idealised notions during the fertility troubles of how perfect their lives would be if only they could have DC. I do agree that ignoring friends who have babies because you can't is not right though.

Azultrailer Tue 27-Aug-13 06:38:51

You've reposted that you're ashamed of your OP (which is one hell of a turnaround hmm)
So you should be. Really really disgusting attitude. With friends like you, who needs enemies?

Spottypurse Tue 27-Aug-13 06:43:03

You should be very glad you have no idea what the mother of the miscarriage or the miscarriage couple (which I think are horrible phrases) have gone through.

You sound like you really don't like them. And you sound like they are somehow less entitled to their pain than your friend who has had the beautiful girl is entitled to hers. Why do you feel like that do you think?

MrsLouisTheroux Tue 27-Aug-13 06:49:02

Don't be ashamed OP.
You feel how you feel and I'm glad that you said it all on here rather than in RL.

Jaynebxl Tue 27-Aug-13 06:50:41

If I had had a string of miscarriages I wouldn't go anywhere near a friend with a new baby, no matter how beautiful they were, because it would be too painful. And I would hope that friend would understand. When I fell pregnant with our second some friends had just had their final attempt at IVF fail. They never acknowledged my pregnancy or her birth and frankly I don't blame them. I didn't expect them to and didn't talk about the baby around them because I didn't want to rub salt in their wounds. So I think YABVU to complain about the friends not gushing over the baby.

ClairesTravellingCircus Tue 27-Aug-13 06:52:06

I'm with solid gold brass on this one. I think her analysis of the situation is spot on.

ZillionChocolate Tue 27-Aug-13 06:58:24

Glad you see YWBU.

Yeah, what Solid Gold Brass said.

I guess that all the other posters on here have never had any thoughts about other people that aren't filled with sweetness and tweety songbirds hmm.

Glad to see you realised you were in fact BVU.

MrsHoarder Tue 27-Aug-13 07:31:56

Upthe it its possible to have unreasonable, uncharitable thoughts, recognise them as such in private and try to ensure no-one ever knows about them. Its the long rant that's got peoples backs up.

op was BU about them finding it hard. Mother hood can be a right old slog at the best of times, whether you were trying for 10 years or had 'surprise baby' that you never expected at all. And everything in between. It'd make things a lot easier if we stuck together a bit more, considering that whatever our circumstances, a lot of the issues and difficulties remain the same...hardship isn't discriminatory!

But it does sound like she's being harsh on the friend who's had a rough birth and is having a crap time herself? Has everyone else missed that bit or am I a bitch also? hmm

pigletmania Tue 27-Aug-13 07:59:38

Yabvu children are hard, your whole life changes but would not swap them for thr world . No you dont have a clue what the couple are going thriugh, its horrid to compare grief!

Fakebook Tue 27-Aug-13 08:08:48

That was a quick turnaround response to a shitty opening comment OP. if you feel that remorseful then get the thread deleted.. You don't even have the first idea how a "much wanted baby" can affect a marriage and your life. It's not always all roses and pretty birds singing after a baby comes along.

You sound like a horrible person, and for the first time on here I'm restraining myself from using some choice words to throw at you....

CarolineKnappShappey Tue 27-Aug-13 08:10:58

I think that jumping on the OP's head is a bit unnecessary. She has been thoughtless and honest. And if you are on the outside of fertility issues you don't really get it.

However, she has taken her kicking. If we keep calling her nasty names maybe that will discourage others from coming on here with similar issues and getting a different perspective which would be a shame.

One of the best things about here is that you actually get educated about all kinds of things.

I would urge the OP to take on board the points about the miscarriages, and admit the moaning couple are annoying, but we all are sometimes, and support all your friends.

Engelsemama Tue 27-Aug-13 08:20:35

My DH's depression was brought on by our ttc struggle and mc (among other things). He's still struggling now (DS is nearly 2). People think he should "cheer up" because we were eventually successful in ttc. They don't see what he has to be depressed about. Now we're thinking about ttc DC2 and both worried about the effect on his mental health and our relationship, which really suffered from our struggle to ttc and his depression.

And like many here, I avoided any frirnds who were pg or had a new baby. It was just too painful.

jammiedonut Tue 27-Aug-13 08:22:25

Was all geared up to give you a flaming...just seen your second post. Really glad you've realised how shitty you sounded. I know it can seem odd but can you imagine the heartache you feel when you even think these thoughts when you've been through so much to finally have your child and realise its not all cuddles and smiles.
Please don't go too hard in regards to other friends' baby. My bf found she was pregnant shortly after my mc, it was devastating to see her going through pregnancy and I found it difficult to hold her child without being in tears thinking of the baby I'd lost. Cut her some slack.

ArkadyRose Tue 27-Aug-13 08:25:15

So the mother of the newborn feels put out that someone who LOST several babies and therefore must have been in a lot of grief and pain couldn't be around her pfb? She needs to get the fuck over herself. So she had a tough pregnancy and labour - that doesn't mean the world has to revolve around her baby, and she's being even more of a bitch than you were to make this post in the first place, OP! I've had 4 mc, my youngest sister has had 6mc (including twins), and our mother had 10mc and 4 stillbirths before she had me. The one thing we all had in common whilst going through all that and still ttc was that we just couldn't be around babies; it was too painful, and we avoided them for the sake of our own mental health. The Royal baby was born on what would have been my EDD had I not mc at 12 weeks in Jan, and unless you've had a mc yourself you can have no idea how agonising it was that whole week of baby, baby, BABY everywhere I turned. If I'd had an unthinking friend and relative trying to make everything about THEIR pfb at that time, I'd have gone absolutely mental.

And NONE of that means they don't have the same right as the parent of a newborn to complain about how hard they're finding it to adjust to a small demanding baby. Babies turn your life upside down in a way you can't fully comprehend until it happens to you, and there's no way to prepare yourself for that - or for the effects of PND, which affects women who've had multiple mc even more than other mothers - statistically women with fertility problems are at higher risk of PND.

You have no idea what they are going through yet still put your judgy pants on. You've now admitted YABVVU - maybe you can explain to the other mother how she's BVU too and get her to back off and leave this couple to adjust to and love their very-much-wanted pfb. Maybe she should come on MN too so we can flame HER judgy pants off too! grin

middleclassdystopia Tue 27-Aug-13 08:26:03

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Well I think it's fine to find even much wanted babies hard work, but this couple don't sound as if they have been very supportive of your friends going through a tough time. Maybe that's colouring your view of them and making them seem self interested to you?

Btw if your friends child continues to have developmental problems remember to recommend the SN board here.

Bellini28 Tue 27-Aug-13 08:31:22

I have to say that the responses despite OP back tracking and realising her mistakes are too much. For goodness sake has nobody had unfair, spiteful, irrational thoughts before?

OP it is all relative; unwanted, planned, success after 4/5/6 rounds of IVF..... A baby is a baby and for many of us it is flipping hard and people are allowed to say so. Additionally the bit with your other friend is none of your business so don't get involved, leave it between them.

Let it go now because it is reading like an ambush.... Not nice reading and unnecessary as OP has apologised.

pigletmania Tue 27-Aug-13 08:34:00

Sorry op just read your last posts, i am glad you realise hiw badly you cane accross

Azultrailer Tue 27-Aug-13 08:38:14

*So the mother of the newborn feels put out that someone who LOST several babies and therefore must have been in a lot of grief and pain couldn't be around her pfb? She needs to get the fuck over herself. So she had a tough pregnancy and labour - that doesn't mean the world has to revolve around her baby, and she's being even more of a bitch than you were to make this post in the first place, OP! I've had 4 mc, my youngest sister has had 6mc (including twins), and our mother had 10mc and 4 stillbirths before she had me. The one thing we all had in common whilst going through all that and still ttc was that we just couldn't be around babies; it was too painful, and we avoided them for the sake of our own mental health. The Royal baby was born on what would have been my EDD had I not mc at 12 weeks in Jan, and unless you've had a mc yourself you can have no idea how agonising it was that whole week of baby, baby, BABY everywhere I turned. If I'd had an unthinking friend and relative trying to make everything about THEIR pfb at that time, I'd have gone absolutely mental.

And NONE of that means they don't have the same right as the parent of a newborn to complain about how hard they're finding it to adjust to a small demanding baby. Babies turn your life upside down in a way you can't fully comprehend until it happens to you, and there's no way to prepare yourself for that - or for the effects of PND, which affects women who've had multiple mc even more than other mothers - statistically women with fertility problems are at higher risk of PND.

You have no idea what they are going through yet still put your judgy pants on. You've now admitted YABVVU - maybe you can explain to the other mother how she's BVU too and get her to back off and leave this couple to adjust to and love their very-much-wanted pfb. Maybe she should come on MN too so we can flame HER judgy pants off too!*

This. This.

And as for the back track, what a load of crap. You don't spout the bile the OP has and then suddenly see the error in thinking - far far more likely she didn't really think she was that unreasonable and wouldn't really get much of a flaming.

Groovee Tue 27-Aug-13 08:39:35

My dh's SIL seemed to struggle with parenthood after infertility and IVF. I remember being pregnant with ds and had 2 year old dd with me and I bumped into her with her son and she looked completely deflated. She told me then that she had thought it would all fall into place but it wasn't and she didn't know how I made it all look so easy.

I think when you want something so badly it can make you feel a bit flat when it's not all a bed of roses.

Yet dd was unplanned and I found it all very easy and just got on with it. But dd was a very easy baby. When she turned 2, the horns grew and she became a challenge. However ds who was very much planned was a horrific baby yet a fab toddler.

yellowballoons Tue 27-Aug-13 08:40:21

Hide the thread op.Quick!
Because many posters dont read many posts on a thread before posting.
So this thread will go on and on with the YABVUs.

Fakebook Tue 27-Aug-13 08:41:41

For goodness sake has nobody had unfair, spiteful, irrational thoughts before?

I'd have more sympathy for her if she hadn't stated in the first post that she was putting on her hard hat for a flaming. She knew full well what she was writing, and even had the chance to not post it when writing out the last line. Then the quick turnaround; she knew exactly what she'd written was wrong.

Bunbaker Tue 27-Aug-13 08:43:34

It took me 17 years to conceive DD and I found parenthood extremely difficult. We then had the double whammy of nearly losing DD when she was a few weeks old and she ended up in ICU.

YABVVVVVU and stop being so judgey.

Azultrailer Tue 27-Aug-13 08:43:39

Yellowballoons it's also possible that people HAVE read the whole thread and still think the OP is unreasonable. And vile with it.

MissMalonex2 Tue 27-Aug-13 08:44:23

Glad you now see YABVU - but reading through the lines, if you and your much loved and darling friend (who had the beautiful baby DD at the same time as this poor couple lost their baby) have been bitching about the other mother, I think you need to go and undo that harm and help the darling friend see the light too. With friends like these...confused

Bunbaker Tue 27-Aug-13 08:46:05

I am guilty of not reading the entire thread because the first post irritated me so much. I see that the OP has apologised, and I accept that apology.

Bowlersarm Tue 27-Aug-13 08:46:36

YANBU to realise you are wrong!

Actually I disagree with Fakebook. I don't think this thread should be deleted. It gives insight for people who have maybe thought along similar lines about their friends/acquaintances

SunshineMMum Tue 27-Aug-13 08:47:10

YABU Do you not think she may be experiencing delayed grief or even post natal depression?

yellowballoons Tue 27-Aug-13 08:48:15

Oh. Didnt realise that if a poster has said sorry, and a poster has told she has been unreasonable 20 or more times, that still posters will post YABU.
Wow. Even more reason for someone to hide a post quickly, and just let people vent and have a say, regardless of whether the op will ever look at the thread again.

I see you have been back to YWBU about the complaining about a much wanted baby. To be fair, everyone has their limit when it comes to whining even if it is justified whining, I can't imagine that I was a pleasant person to be around when I've been in the throes of exhausted self centered self pity. I'm shocked that I Have friends left to listen to me whine tbh. You're not a rotten person for having less patience the more you hear it, that's human nature IMHO.

However, the thing that made my stomach sink when I read your OP was referring to these people as "the miscarriage couple" and "mother of miscarriage" whilst your other friend was "mother of beautiful baby". I've never had a miscarriage, but I can only imagine how hurtful it would be to someone who has to be referred to in such a way.

I know it can be difficult trying to support a friend through a hard time, especially when they appear to be very "me me me". It doesn't seem to me that you even like this couple enough to try, just from the language you use about them. I'm not sure this friendship has any mileage in it.

DrinkFeckArseGirls Tue 27-Aug-13 08:54:42

Moreover to what has already been said, I think it's perfectly reasonable that the couple in question did not respond to calls TO THE HOSPITAL after the miscarriage. I can only imagine but I would've felt very hounded in their place no matter how well intentioned the calls were. Surely there was time after they left the hospital to acknowledge the bereavement.

DropYourSword Tue 27-Aug-13 09:00:04

BramStoker ... Did the mother of the little girl understand that your mutual friend would have found it too difficult to visit. Just that this past is from your opinion and you haven't mentioned her view on it. I would have thought (and hoped) she would have understood.

Initially I thought you meant that EVERYONE ignored this new baby but reread and realized she had a lot of support from family and other friends.

Sometimes it's best not to 'fight other people's battles' or get offended on other people's behalf. What you think they feel, and what they actually feel may be two seperate things.

I think it wasn't the best decision ever to post this here, but agree with posters above that posts like this can be really helpful in educating people and opening people's eyes to things, and I also think it was very big of you to come back, apologize and admit that your OP was unreasonable!

JulieMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 27-Aug-13 18:53:57

Just a quick reminder of our talk guidelines as some posters appear to have forgotten.

Comment on the post, not the poster.


dandydorset Tue 27-Aug-13 19:40:52

op dosent deserve the bashing she's getting way OTT

TVTonight Tue 27-Aug-13 19:54:16

I know this has moved on, but from your OP it doesn't seem that "Miscarriage Couple" (wincing on your behalf) actually appreciate the baby they do have very much. YANBU to find that distasteful in any circumstances.

Pickle131 Tue 27-Aug-13 20:24:27

Any trauma - miscarriage or birth trauma - can mean the person absolutely can't be around pregnant ladies, babies, baby talk, children, baby shops, groups of women who might start talking about babies, breastfeeding women, relatives / friends bringing news of other people's pregnancies or babies... The list goes on. I've experienced this, thankfully I had sympathetic, sensitive friends and a good therapist. Anyone who wasn't sensitive I literally avoided including a pregnant friend.
I hope your other mutual friend can appreciate this too and be very gracious and forgiving of the lady who had the babies die and now is struggling with the life changes of a live baby.
I think what you're feeling is an understatedable initial human reaction, almost as though you'd told her it'd be hard and she didn't listen. But now you need to rise above it and treat her as though you really love her.

Belchica Tue 27-Aug-13 23:13:38

You lost me when you said that everyone was 'involved in their grief etc' ETC???? You sound so dismissive of what they have gone through. You really can have no idea.

And only a child's mother has the right to claim it as an 'easy' child. Am I right I'm thinking you aren't a parent?

Do all the friends in this saga a big favour by just butting out and saying nothing.

sameoldIggi Wed 28-Aug-13 00:01:22

I'm glad you feel ashamed of the OP, OP ( note, criticising post not poster).
Unfortunately, I can't un-see your original post. Too many offensive things to list.
I remember hearing a tragic story of a woman who had her baby after years of fertility treatment, suffered pps and committed suicide. How dare she find life hard with a much-wanted baby, eh?

Kinect Wed 28-Aug-13 00:28:37

YABU just because you described a baby as, 'vey good baby'.

All babies are good.

No babies are bad

Mimishimi Wed 28-Aug-13 01:43:39

I have to say that if a close friend avoided me or our new baby because she was having fertility problems, it would really hurt. I'd definitely not show much enthusiasm if she did fall pregnant and expect me to be excited for her. So yes, the OP's friend should understand but that doesn't make it any less hurtful and I think she would be within her rights to avoid the person drawing OP's ire and not be expected to help out.

thatisall Wed 28-Aug-13 01:48:58

I think I know what you're getting at and you're brave for saying it even if you are BU lol.
I have secondary infertility ( since my dd was 12 months old) so that's my 'excuse' for being a bit miffed (even though I know its unfair and i shouldn't be) when new parents moan about the hardships of parenthood. I'd do anything for one of those sleepless nights right now believe me. I remind myself that my pain doesn't mean that others don't find it difficult and I wouldn't dream of being rude to anyone about it. I also have a close friend who's ds died at just a few months old and I know she struggles with this too.
Equally i have a friend who suffered the horror of a still birth and actively hates all pregnant women and new mothers who even suggest they are having a tough time, despite the fact that she is now expecting again and 'having a tough time' IYKWIM
All I can say is that grief effects everyone differently and maybe that's why she is struggling with your other friend with beautiful baby.
Obviously YABU because no amount of pain or fight to get a baby negates the struggle of the first year, but i think you're commenting on the irony of it all more than anything else no?

I had a decade of crap. Illness, fertility issues, miscarriages, an ectopic pregnancy, more fertility issues, surgery and illness and then IVF. In the middle of it all I had DC1, who is lovely and I found it relatively easy to adjust to becoming a parent. I smiled through everything, put on a brave face and got on with everything that was thrown at me.
However, when I got pregnant with DC2 by IVF, I wobbled. By the time he was born, I felt broken. I simply couldn't cope with trying to function let alone put a brave face on things and make other people feel comfy. I think I was simply overloaded and very vulnerable to depression.
I think if someone tells you that they are struggling and that their relationship is suffering, the kind and generous thing to do is to listen and take their concerns seriously. If you dismiss their worries, they may not confide in anyone next time - and that is a very sad, lonely place to be.

missingmumxox Wed 28-Aug-13 02:35:34

Well said mrs cakes

PeriodMath Wed 28-Aug-13 02:53:29

Actually, avoiding a friend and her new baby for 8 months (!) because of your own fertility concerns is not really acceptable. I speak as someone who had both a mc and a very serious ectopic pg before conceiving.

I would never have been so wrapped up in my own woes that I couldn't extend a kindness and an interest (even a feigned one) in other people's new babies.

They do sound pretty self-absorbed to me.

toomanyfionas Wed 28-Aug-13 02:58:08

I think you just needed to have a rant about their neediness which has obviously been hard on you and the mutual friend at times.

celestialbows Wed 28-Aug-13 06:42:35

I have had several pregnancies which ended in miscarriage.
I finally had fertility treatment which resulted in my two beautiful children and every day I feel as though I'm hurtling ever closer to a nervous breakdown.
It's the hardest most harrowing time of my life. The pregnancies were horrible and the physical and mental health problems which came along too have just been too much for dh and me.

We have no family support and I know that when I complain people are thinking 'but she was desperate for kids, now she's got them all she does is moan!'

TVTonight Wed 28-Aug-13 08:56:40

celestialblows I'm sorry that you are feeling bad. It does sound as if you (both perhaps) need to speak to your GP to deal with this properly. From what you have said, it seems to go beyond a friendly ear type of situation.

Lcbirdy Wed 28-Aug-13 09:44:45

YAB horrific.

We had fertility issues. Close friends had babies who we loved, and still do. Didn't stop me crying all the way home in grief. Real, actual grief and loss.

We now have a much wanted and loved dd who is sometimes bloody difficult. In the beginning (due to very traumatic birth, no skin-to-skin etc) I struggled enormously with bf, guilt, emotional responses and didn't say anything toy friends (just to dh) in case any of th responded in the way you have. Eventually, I did share. Turns out, they are ACTUALLY FRIENDS.

catinabox Wed 28-Aug-13 10:02:56

Wow. This post has made me cry.

I don't know what to say. Just feel really really sad.

I feel really angry too.

catinabox Wed 28-Aug-13 10:16:23

Have read back and glad that OP has seen that she was really unfair to her friends.

Good ol' mumsnet telling people about themselves when they need it!

(have been there!)

Take care OP and enjoy all the newborns in your life, i hope you get loads of lovely cuddles!

brightonbythesea Wed 28-Aug-13 10:21:11

YABU. really U. Babies are hard whatever the circumstances of their conception. I think for people who have had a long slog to get their baby, it must be even harder in a way as they have had a long time and a lot of anticipation, building up how wonderful their life is going to be with a new arrival. Although their lives will of course be enriched, it can be a real crash down to earth when the colicy, crying, difficult feeder, bad sleeper arrives. This has been the case for a friend of mine who underwent IVF, and only now her DD is 10 months is she starting to enjoy her.

mrssprout Wed 28-Aug-13 11:18:37

I usually avoid AIBU but I had to jump in. Luckily I "followed the rules" & read the thread first so saw the second post by the op.
It can be quite surprising how much of a shock a new baby can be. I couldn't have a biological baby at all but did become mum to a newborn via f*ster care. I wanted that baby so much & very quickly loved him with every fibre of my being but when I was pacing the floor every evening with a screaming baby in my arms I would sometimes think to myself....what have I done ? I felt that I could never voice anything negative to anyone as this baby was so wanted I was suppose to be blissfully happy every moment. It can be a difficult position.

middleclassdystopia Wed 28-Aug-13 11:47:56

I am angry that HQ deleted my post. I appreciate the OP apologised and yes of course we all have irrational even spiteful thoughts at times.

BUT to post them on a public forum which includes women coping with miscarriage and PND was at best thoughtless and at worst plain unempathetic.

I am not calling names or using offensive language. I have seen much worse which hasn't been deleted.

middleclassdystopia Wed 28-Aug-13 11:52:26

Do you know i've just re read the OP and I am still shocked at how awful it sounds. I am sad for my friends who have been through the pain of fertility problems or miscarriage, that anyone would publically declare such stuff.

You have not been flamed unfairly but maybe you have learnt from this. I hope so.

catinabox Wed 28-Aug-13 12:33:41

middleclass don't read it. I found myself crying actually.

Having had fertility issues, friends who conceived before us then miscarried 3 times after we conceived and coping with all these complicated emotions, i found it too much that someone might think i wouldn't be entitled to struggle and feel frustrated as a parent (as these are exactly the kinds of guilty feelings i have had myself - i shouldn't complain or be frustrated etc)

I have always respected my friends decision to need space and never ever had any expectations of them in terms of involvement with our DC. I am always quite touched and humbled by their gestures. It must be incredibly hard for them.

I can not understand OP's perspective only that i guess she hasn't been there herself. She recognises how U she has been so that is good.

I hope mumnet decide to take this down because it is upsetting actually.

Thepowerof3 Wed 28-Aug-13 14:37:45

I find it very worrying that anyone should feel they don't have 'the right' to find babyhood hard, that is one of the very reasons women try and hide PND thinking that they have everything so can't feel down

NeoMaxiZoomDweebie Wed 28-Aug-13 14:41:01

May I lighten the thread by admiring Frogspoon as a use name? How splendid! "Frog" and "Spoon" are two of my favourite words in the world! smile It rolls off the tongue beautifully...Frogspoon.....Frogspoon....nice.

CarolineKnappShappey Wed 28-Aug-13 15:24:34

But MCDystopia isn't it better that the OP actually comes on here with these opinions and gets chastised for them, then apologises.

The thread has not been deleted for a very good reason

everlong Wed 28-Aug-13 15:28:53

You're mad OP.

OhDearNigel Wed 28-Aug-13 15:39:01

I think it must be harder when you've been trying for a long time. You must build parenthood up into a rosy looking state, imagining that once you finally hold that much longed for baby your life will suddenly be perfect.

However, when the baby comes it doesnt know the horrible journey you've had to get there and gets colic/wont sleep/doesnt gain weight/cries all the time just like every other baby.

wannaBe Wed 28-Aug-13 16:15:37

Tbh I think there are two different elements here.

Firstly, I read somewhere once that PND following infertility is actually higher presumably because of the expectation of a cuddly baby who is going to make all the pain and hurt of infertility go away, and then when the reality of parenthood hits home it comes as a hell of a shock to the system... So yes, perfectly understandable that someone who has struggled to conceive could still struggle as a parent...

We had friends who tried for seven years to have a baby and had several miscarriages. When they eventually were able to conceive and had the baby she decided she didn’t actually like parenthood to the extent she went back to work when the baby was three months old and she vowed never to have any more. I found it really sad that her expectations of parenting just weren’t as she thought iyswim.

However, while I do sympathise with anyone who goes through infertility (been there) I don’t actually agree that infertility gives someone the right to treat others exactly how they want, and that that treatment of others then extends to after they are actually able to conceive but is just transferred into now having a hard time being a parent.

I also don’t think that going through a hard time necessarily means they are lovely people who happen to be going through a hard time, there are some perfectly nasty people who happen to have a hard time, but who would treat others badly even if they weren’t, and the op’s friend does sound a bit like one of those types of people.

So she refused to have anything to do with her friend’s baby (who had a difficult birth and baby now has developmental issues) because of her own situation. And maybe I will be flamed for this, but IMO it depends on at what stage the op had a mc – someone who had a stillbirth is, for instance in a much different place, and I would feel were far more justified in not wanting to spend time with a newborn to someone who had a early mc for instance. And now she has a baby and is still expecting all the attention? I don’t blame the parent of the other baby at all for not feeling that charitable towards her tbh, and yes, I tried to conceive a second baby for six years, had a suspected mc during that time (although was not confirmed) and I don’t feel that gave me the right to treat everyone around me like crap and expect understanding for doing so.

SarahAndFuck Wed 28-Aug-13 18:04:12

OP I am wincing for you.

I know you've read back and regret your tone in your OP so maybe, if you haven't already hidden this thread and name changed, you could ask MNHQ to delete the whole thread.

If you want my take on things, I think you might be closer to the second friend, the one who had a difficult birth but a beautiful baby girl at the end of it.

That's the only reason I can think of for you being so harsh towards the couple who suffered multiple losses. I'm not sure that one glass of wine is a good enough reason to refer to a close friend as "miscarriage couple" or "mother of miscarriage".

Those were her children OP. I'm not sure what stage of the pregnancy she lost the babies at but I imagine that to her it doesn't matter. They weren't miscarriages to her, they were her babies. She is not the "mother of miscarriage". I hope that's your biggest regret about your first post.

I lost my first son at 22 weeks. To the medical world that is still a miscarriage but I had to be induced and had a seven hour labour to deliver him. He has a name and a grave and two parents who love him and grieve for him even now, seven and a half years later. He will always be our child.

And you might say it's different to your friend, if her losses were earlier. And maybe in some ways it is. But she lost her baby just the same as I lost mine.

And grief destroys you. I'd lost people before, all my grandparents. I was in the room with one of my grandmothers when she died. And it was heartbreaking but it was also normal. Losing your child isn't normal. I could feel the grief on my face for months afterwards, it was like wearing a mask and I could physically feel it.

We went on to lose another baby eleven months later, this time to prematurity rather than stillbirth (which is how I say I lost my son even if it's not the official description). And again, it's not normal, not natural.

And while this was happening, three other people in my family gave birth. And it was hard for us. We were pleased for them, always glad their babies were okay. But it hurt every time in ways I can't even begin to describe and I don't think I could have coped with seeing those babies immediately. Sometimes months is what it takes for a grieving parent to feel strong enough. And it can put a great strain on a marriage.

And when we did have our own much longed for baby, we were thrilled and delighted and happy and everything you would expect of new parents who had been through loss and finally had a baby.

And we also found it hard, and complained we were tired or found some bits harder than others.

Because we are human. We're not robots or saints. It doesn't mean we've forgotten what we went through or are ungrateful.

We had just had two and a half years of pregnancy, loss, grief, hope, pregnancy, another loss, serious illness, more grief, big events in our marriage, more hope, another pregnancy, a difficult birth, a dream come true and a crash landing into the reality of a newborn and first time parenthood.

And even when you have a baby, it doesn't make everything about your losses better. The new baby is not a replacement, not a band aid, not second best. And it never should be seen as such. And I'm not saying you are suggesting that, I'm just trying to explain that your friends are living with loss and they always will be. Nothing will make it go away or make it better. They'll learn to live with it but it will always be there.

And that's hard when you have a new baby and it's hard when you don't. They've been changed forever, they are not the people they used to be. They might be hiding it well but it's true. They will always have children missing from their family, that they loved and still love even though they never saw them or held them.

If the friend with the baby girl has issues with the couple who lost their babies then perhaps you should leave her to work those issues out with them, without judging or taking sides.

And if you can't do that then it might be better to end the friendship with the friend who has suffered the losses. Kinder to her in the long run. I'd be devastated to have one of my friends call me the "mother of stillbirth" or the "neonatal death couple" and wonder how I dared to complain about feeling tired or a bit out of my depth. If that was how they felt about me all the time I would rather they walked away.

GogoGobo Wed 28-Aug-13 18:14:26

I had IVF to have my DS after a long and arduous journey including losing twins, failed cycles etc. I was deeply ashamed when I had "tough" days with DS as a tiny baby and felt the reason it had been hard for me to conceive was because nature somehow thought i wouldn't be a good mum. DS is a toddler now and these thoughts are still there in the background. Reading your post reminded me why I kept all this to myself, fear of being judged. YABU and unkind.

sameoldIggi Wed 28-Aug-13 18:19:06

Sarahandfuck thank you for posting that, you have a way of explaining things better than most of us.

SeaSickSal Wed 28-Aug-13 18:32:02

I'm gobsmacked that the OP and the mother of the girl actually had no understanding that she was upset by the miscarriage and couldn't deal with making the fuss of a baby.

I'm even more gobsmacked that now they have the benefit of hindsight and know she would go on to have a healthy child they're treating the OP as if she should have had foresight this would happen.

Really, these two are friends anybody could do without.

Florabeebaby Wed 28-Aug-13 20:33:22

No comment on OP...too horrible to say anything but...

SarahAndFuck, your story brought tears to my eyes, I almost lost my DD due to prematurity. I can only imagine the struggle you have had and get a feeling that you are one strong woman.

Bluesockseight Wed 28-Aug-13 21:45:19

Sarahandfuck, very eloquent. Happiness to you. x

Loopytiles Wed 28-Aug-13 22:47:57

thanks sarah

Think Pnd is actually more likely after fertility problems or pregnancy loss.

For me, it was like had high anxiety and low reserves, not enough left to cope with sleep deprivation, newborns and the normal challenging stuff (my DC were "good" like the one in the OP).

As others have said, sometimes felt like we had no right to find parenthood or the impact on our relationship, health and life hard, because we were so lucky to have healthy DC.

Have had similar comments from friends and family, "oh, but after all that happened you're just so lucky", "don't wish it away", "aren't you glad it was all ok after just a year or two, so and so have been ttc for ten years" and so on.

AintNobodyGotTimeFurThat Wed 28-Aug-13 22:59:32

I am not going to flame you as it's obviously an opinion you feel strongly about and it's not my place to tell you how wrong you are or right you are.

However I think some things you have to consider are:

1) When you have lost a baby you are not thinking straight. I am afraid grief does take over you and I am sure if they weren't deeply hurt they would've gone to see their friend but their pain was obviously so much they just couldn't cope. Especially if friends child was ill or friend was ill - they were probably frightened that the friend might lose their baby too, how could they just sit there and see that happen?
2) Nobody knows what it is like to have a baby until you actually have one. Just because you find it hard doesn't mean that you don't want the baby. Now if the couple said, 'I hate having this baby, give it up for adoption now' I would have some sympathy in where you are coming from but they are just stating how hard it is. Does someone not wanting their child make it OK to complain about their behaviour, but someone who has been trying for ages has not?

I personally don't ever remember complaining about how hard it has been having DD who is 5 months old now but I tell you she is one of the most easiest going babies I have ever met and as my Mum reminds me any future children couldn't possibly live up to that. She doesn't even cry at night when wakes up for a feed - she actually smiles and gargles and only cries if you don't feed her within 10-15 minutes. She's also not a crying baby anyway, so if she does cry you know there is something wrong (been teething last few weeks and it's driving her nuts and yes, had a few spells of crying) but I know I am truly blessed to have her.

She was well wanted but if she had been the screamy, crying type of baby I would have still loved her but am sure I would've said how exhausted she was making me. This wouldn't be minimising how much I love her, it just would be stating how hard it was when she was waking every hour/crying all night etc.

I have had to pump 4/5 times during the day and breastfeed and do top ups from a week old though which hasn't been easy, but wouldn't change it for the world because I know she is getting what I can give her (not that there is anything wrong if you can't or don't feel comfortable doing so, it's just something I really wanted to be able to do).

All in all I think being a new Mum/Dad isn't the easiest thing in the world. Every baby is different, but there are challenges along the way.

These people I doubt were being nasty with your other friend nor do I imagine they were being ungrateful about having their baby now they have them; they are just finding the sleepless nights/feedings/insert difficult infant stage thing here.

But I also believe you weren't being deliberately vindictive or nasty, you were just saying how you felt and that's absolutely fine. People on Mumsnet like to go on attack mode sometimes.

TVTonight Wed 28-Aug-13 23:05:15

As others have said, sometimes felt like we had no right to find parenthood or the impact on our relationship, health and life hard, because we were so lucky to have healthy DC

I definitely feel this after six years of recurrent miscarriage/IVF then three babies in two years. I simply cannot permit myself to express or even feel anything that could be perceived as whining.
The flip side if that of course is that I am very sensitive to other parents being blasé about their kids. And my threshold for "Parents Who Are Ungrateful of Their Children" is about as high as a gnats arse.

MrsBramStoker Wed 28-Aug-13 23:50:45

It's been a few days since I wrote the OP and have been reading the responses. Please allow me the opportunity to respond to some of the comments and issues that other posters have brought up.

Firstly, and most importantly, am sorry, sincerely, I am for any distress and anger I caused to anyone who has experienced the same grief that my friend went through. I have learned that I don't really have the same understanding as I haven’t gone through it myself, but of course I am very sympathetic, to anyone who has gone through this. (and I think actually miscarriage is definitely a very misunderstood thing in society and in media, but that conversation is for another day) I was honestly heartbroken for my friend when she experienced miscarriage twice. I felt awful for her. And I know it's nothing to do with what stage it happens at, that once you get that blue line on the pregnancy test, you plan and hope and that baby becomes a major part of your life and your future.

Secondly, a lot of posters seem to think I'm a complete evil bitch. On re-reading it does sound very harsh and splap-dash. Some seem to think my apology was too swift and therefore, insincere. However, on re-reading it, it is completely ranty and very ‘raw’. But isn’t that the while point sometimes of using mumsnet as you can say things you wouldn’t dream of almost thinking, let alone, saying out load to anyone in ‘real life’. So despite what you may thnk, I sam and continue to be very supportive of my friends in ‘real life’.

On that note – my referral to ‘miscarriage couple’ etc was just a way of denoting, although now, very offensive, who I was talking about in the story. I know I used mumsnet as a way of ranting here and not giving the full picture but just one aspect to the story.
I’m going to fill you in on some honest details and background here.

Some people wondered if I am a mother myself. I am a mother of 3 children. My PFB was diagnosed with a potentially serious condition on the heal-prick test (I hear some people thinking I’m playing the sympathy card here!! But am not). Thank god it all turned out ok, but it was a hard thing to be hit with at the time. Am not for one minute suggesting it is comparable to losing a child or miscarriage but it give me a tiny insight into the dioffulty of having to face other people with their new babies, as at the time, I felt I was surrounded by lots of other family and friends who had (as I perceived at the time) ‘healthy’ babies and I remember distinctly feeling a bit hurt, full of anger and a bit deflated and a bit ‘why me’ but I also remember consciously thinking that their beautiful baby was nothing to do with what was going on for me – why should the two issues be related?? I tried to rise about it and was just as welcoming and full of joy for them. But it was difficult but this was my way of ‘rising about it all’ (but I probably buried a lot of the feelings at the time, and it came back to haunt me, but again, that’s another conversation!)

We then went on to have twins – very premature, etc and problems with a language delays, etc but thankfully, they’re doing great now and I feel very blessed and lucky. And take nothing for granted.
But related to OP, the girl who had the difficult labour, let’s call her A and the girl who had two miscarriages and a new baby – lets called her B (in case I unwittingly use any more offensive terms) have a history of tension between them. I suppose you could call then ‘frenemeis’, a bit competitive. If one qualified in her career, the other one had to match it, etc. Many years about, the girl A had a miscarriage when she tried to conceive her first child. We all went away for a weekend – I planned it to cheer her up – 4 of us went away for the weekend, including me, girl A and B and another first friend. Understandably, girl A was feeling very vulnerable and very teary, but girl B spent one particular night saying ‘oh I can’t wait until me and X get married (her future husband, they were engaged at the time), and have kids, etc, it will be so exciting’) I remember thinking - ‘did I hear that??’ seriously, it was a bit weirdo,. Like she was taunting girl A but of course girl A didn’t say anything as she’s very stoic and didn’t want to cause a drama. But I remember comforting her in the bathroom, and both of us were thinking WTF? etc. She was totally unsympathetic to her at the time.

I just realised, I’m totally re-hashing old stuff that I know needs to be left in the past, but just drawing a picture of these two girls relationship.

Anyway, cut to years later, when girl a also had twins (not long after the miscarriage) and I felt girl B was, if I’m honest, not really warmly happy but if I’m honest, a bit jealous?? Does that sound awful? And when girl B had suffered two consecutive miscarriages – it was awful, it really was for her, I was so so upset for her (I know lost of posters can’t believe that but I am supportive and sympathetic in ‘real life!’) and then when girl B had the problems with labour with her third child- in hospital for a month before had with pre-eclampsia, and the baby had an infection after birth, and may cause some hearing loss, etc. But there was no phone call, no support from girl b. All she said to me was – not in a callous way – but in a very self-absorbed way in my opinion – ‘gosh, it doesn’t sound like I’ll go that hospital to have our baby as girl A (name) didn’t have a great experience.’ I remember thinking – it was bit of a misplaced comment.

Girl A still very worried about child’s development and IMO suffering a bit from post-traumatic stress disorder.

And of course, it was difficult, and mumnet have educated it in this regard, that it most be awful to visit new babies after having suffered a loss yourself.

I suppose my point is that whatever people are going through, it’s not objective. It’s all relative and it’s not incomparable. Some people go through some tough stuff that we may not be aware of form the outside looking in.
I do wish all you posters health, and happiness. And sorry for your grief and losses.

I thought of this quote the other day – I really like it – by a poet called Albert Lindsay Gordon:

“Life is mostly froth and bubble, but two things stand like stone:
Kindness in another’s trouble, courage in our own.”

Better sign off now – PFB born starting big school in the morning. X

MrsBramStoker Wed 28-Aug-13 23:51:48

And a final note, have texted and contacted my friend a good bit over the last week, and I think she may be finding it harder after TTC and maybe is a bit depressed.

Good night

SarahAndFuck Thu 29-Aug-13 00:06:23

Goodnight OP, good luck to PFB for big school tomorrow smile

Thank you Iggi, Flora, Blue and Loopy smile

MrsBramStoker Thu 29-Aug-13 00:13:49

Thanks Sarah. And thanks for sharing your story above. Was beautifully written.

Best of luck to yousmile

MrsBramStoker Thu 29-Aug-13 00:14:39

And am so sorry for your loss flowers

fabergeegg Thu 29-Aug-13 00:19:39

If you go through life being cross and offended by people who are simply struggling, you'll end up embittered and a bit of a bitch. I understand why, at an emotional level, it's irritating that people who longed for a child are now 'spoilt' because they're open about finding it hard. You may not realise this, but they may find it harder than most because of what they've been through already. Or maybe they're just complaining the normal amount, because all new parents do vast amounts of complaining, cast your mind back. Re the mutual friend with a baby - I definitely not would have been able to visit the mutual friend if I'd been going through what she was. You're well out of line on that one as you can have no idea what it's like to be deeply hit with all those 'if onlys' and be trying to weigh up the enormous grief of holding another woman's child - it could flatten her for a week, quite honestly - against the fact that your mutual friend has no such problem and is probably fending visitors off.

If you've reached the point where you have compassion fatigue, then why don't you admit that it's not about the friendship, it's just about the way you feel about this girl now at this point in time. You find her irritating. It's really low to observe that this girl hasn't been trying that long for a baby - not as long as others you known - stop comparing like that! It's horrid! If you were wincing in pain and somebody said 'shut up, there are people in that kind of pain and much worse who are never going to get better,' you'd probably think they were mean spirited. That's what I mean. That's how you sound.

You don't come over well. I think you should pull the thread if you can, do some work on your attitude and either change it or decide it's time for the friendship to cool because this silent judging in the most unreasonable way is simply not fair.

Spottypurse Thu 29-Aug-13 05:14:54

You like girlA better than girl B. and you're being less sympathetic to her.

But just because girl As hurt is more open and real because, to your mind, it relates to a real life baby doesn't make girl Bs hurt any less intense. Just because YOU can't see the baby she's hurting over doesn't mean she's hurting less. And to be fair, girl A is worrying about a child - girl B doesn't even have her children to worry about, iykwim? I'm sure she would rather have those babies here with a risk of a hearing loss, than not have them here at all, which is what she has.

You might be best to reconsider your friendship with girl B. You come across as really not liking her very much.

OP - it sounds as if you have been through quite a lot yourself & got on with it, this can ( especially when raw) make you impatient of others who don't bounce back. At least it did me in the early years when ds1 (severely disabled) was young. I learned quite quickly to keep quiet.

It also sounds as if B is a bit self obsessed - esp with the thoughtless comments regarding A. Some people do find it difficult to see further than their own lives & when horrible things happen to them they still don't notice horrible things happening to others & continue to struggle.

I suppose B sounds as if they are somewhat lacking perspective & can be crass at times. I personally find people lacking perspective hard to be around because I know so many people who have been through some truly awful situations - I mean heart stoppingly dreadful.

However, some people struggle - for whatever reason & I think you can just recognise that and be supportive from a distance/never bitchy etc - otherwise it all gets a bit toxic, nasty & competitive about who's having the worst time which is all a bit silly.

I think if i were you i would distance myself from B, - she's clearly irritating the hell our of you & it's not your job to make her feel better iykwim. Or to get her to notice other people having difficult times. if she can't, she can't. But do try to see it as her struggling - although recognise you're the wrong person to support her. Maybe wish her well in your mind & distance yourself.

A sounds as if she may be in for a rough ride if she still has developmental concerns about her child. You sound as if you find it enjoyable & easy to be around her. When ds1 had developmental concerns I ended up quite isolated (in part driven by me as I found other babies of the same age hard to be around - like a constant slap in the face). Those friends who were supportive then were a godsend & you do sound as if you could help A in a similar way.

MrsBramStoker Sat 31-Aug-13 21:17:39

Thanks for your insights saintly and spotty

dysfunctionallynormal Sun 01-Sep-13 03:38:30

I totally disagree with all the replies i've read here. I don't think you're being unreasonable AT ALL! Yes,babies can be hard work but surely there must be good times that they can talk about too?!!! It's like once some ppl join the 'parents' club they feel they should then start talking like broken records! I'l give you a similar example, i knew a woman who chose to have a second child despite knowing the nightmare of first pregnancy would be repeated. After dd2 was born all i ever heard was whinge whinge whinge..."hubby won't do night feeds/sick of having to watch every penny/childcare is too expensive so i have to give up work" and on it goes. I mean,do these people not THINK and PREPARE for these things BEFORE they have children?!!! I don't think anyone expects parenting to be easy and fun all the time but it is also not hard and miserable ALL the time. There's plenty to enjoy-esp whrn you've tried so hard for one.

Frankly,i think some people just take pride in complaining! Lol! Nutters!

revolvenotevolve Sun 01-Sep-13 07:54:51

OP you've had a really hard time on here. I agree with Solid Gold Brass.

Pawprint Sun 01-Sep-13 08:42:25

After recurrent miscarriages, I thought I'd love every minute of motherhood. But I didn't. PND and sleepless nights - not great.

I don't think I would have moaned all the time, but I am only human and found it hard. I did try and focus on the good bits (when I was awake enough).

I still feel annoyed by something my mum said about a friend of mine who had recurrent miscarriages too. Apparently, this lady had committed a sin by having the audacity to return to work and hire a nanny. In my stupid mum's opinion, this woman had 'made a fuss' about wanting to have a baby and now wasn't appreciating it.

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