DD totally fucked up her GCSEs. AIBU to tell her 'I told you so'?(196 Posts)
Of course I won't but I am very, very cross about it. She got 2 Ds, 2 Es and 3 Fs FFS. All through secondary we have had problems with her being disruptive at school, getting detentions, calls about her not doing her homework or engaging with the lessons, getting into spats with other girls about stuff which did not involve her (sticking up for friends).
She was forecast for 3Cs, 2Ds and 3Es which was bad enough but we hoped she would get the extra C through the exams to get into the college course that she was so excited about doing and which we have supported her in doing even though I have my doubts (performing arts) but I wanted her to do something she enjoyed.
We have lectured her, given her 'pep talks', taken away privileges, shouted, screamed at her and now we have the end result - totally crap grades so she will not be able to do the college course she wanted to do and will have to spend the next year retaking as many as possible at a cost to us. I even frogmarched her to maths club one day as she was so behind but she refused to go again and I could'nt do that every bloody week. Ditto homework club/science club.
She has never been diagnosed with any SENs, her teachers have always stated that she is very bright and would do fine if she would just shut up and listen. She seems to have disengaged with reality and decided that she was going to become a singer/rapper so school was not important. She spends hours writing rap lyrics and listening to that bloody Iggy Azalea (most annoying songs ever). She has even insisted that she will be moving to LA as soon as she is 18 and do whatever it takes to become a 'sooperstarrr' and I fully support her in that 'dream' and hope she can achieve it (not by moving to LA and living in the bins waiting to be discovered though ) but she needs to at least get some qualifications first!
I could bloody shake her very hard. She thinks she knows everything. Aaaarrrrgggh. Any suggestions on what to do with her?
How did she react to the results? Does she say what she plans to do for the next year or so? Sounds like it's been hard for both of you.
No suggestions I wish I did. I could have written that post although amazingly my daughter managed to scrape 3 c's , in subjects she was predicated at least b's in, she failed English maths and science..I was tempted to say I told you so, but was not worth the drama. She is bloody lucky that the college course she applied for have agreed to take her even though she does not have the grades they needed, I just hope she has learnt her lesson and will actually try and work now. What's your daughters plan now for the next to years before she moves to LA
Sorry just saw she is resitting.
if she has dreams of making it big in LA, and the thought of repeating a year without her peers hasnt made her knuckle down, i think you are hoping for something that isnt going to happen unfortunately
No suggestions, sorry.
But it must be
very annoying difficult to live with a teenager who has such unrealistic dreams, encouraged by the media, etc. But I suspect its fairly common. I suppose all you can do is let her learn the game of "consequences" and make her own way. I guess that's hard to do though ... Also, is her poor behaviour restricted to school?
What does your daughter think about her poor grades?
When I read the title, I was ready to say YABVVU. But reading the details if your post.. blimey Tiaras, you must have some patience!
Def go down the resit route. But don't pay for all of it - she needs to contribute too. Good luck.
The next year will be the "tell", assuming that she is retaking at college, she will have to do the all the work herself as the support that the school offers just won't be there.
GCSEs are not the b all and end all. I understand that from a parents point of view it feels like the end of the world but the chances are it will give her the shock needed to buck her ideas up.
First and foremost: talk to the college. See if there is any leeway over the grades. Perhaps she can start the course whilst doing resits, at least for English and Maths.
Explain how disappointed you are and ask her how she feels. It may be that she doesn't get on with academic work but that doesn't mean the end of her life.
The fact that college has turned her down will say more to her than you ever could. It is the first blast of chill reality.
The modern way is more forgiving than in our day. It is not such a disaster to retake, have years out etc. FE colleges do an amazing job In motivating kids to have another go. As your DD is basically bright, as soon as she cares enough to try, she will be fine.
But I would challenge you on why she is retaking at a cost to you. Sounds as if you are rewarding her by sending her to a nice little private retakes college where she can continue in her entitled behaviour, and quite possibly develop even worse habits around drink and drugs among other welathy refusniks. I would encourage you, if its not too late, to look at the full time GCSE course offered by your local FE. College. It will be free, for a start, unless she is over 19. More to the point, she will be in classes with kids who have proper gown up issues in their lives. My disabled DD has retaken her GCSEs at fe college last year, in a class of 11 kids doing Maths, English,double science and media. Some kids were young carers, others had overcome difficult childhoods. Nobody was an entitled young madam.
Fucking x factor has a lot to answer for
Can you talk to the college? are they willing to take her on to the course with the lower grades and let her resit whilst on the course?
College life may suit her more though - although she WILL have to take responsibility for her own work as the tutors will not chase her up, they will just mark her down if she doesn't do the work.
I was a nightmare at school - i left without sitting a single GCSE (or o level - showing my age!) I just wasn't mature enough - I went back when i was in my 20s, i have a PhD now!
My DD much the same - left with worse grades than your dd, has a perfectly good job, which, most importantly, she ENJOYs and at 23 is doing ok.
Maybe this is the first time consequences will actually hit home. Tell her to start saving for LA because you won't be paying. Perhaps you should spare a thought for some of the young people on her classes who, if not for your dd's behaviour, mght have got an A instead of a B, or a B instead of a C, etc. Who have gone home in tears because of the days events and because they wanted to learn.
The whole thing is very sad for all concerned.
She'll last all of 5 minutes in a performing arts course I'm afraid which is all about dedication, discipline, deadlines & working as part of a creative team.
make her speak to the college. i would make her take responsibility for getting herself out of the mess she is in, if you are ready to swoop in and fix it when she messes up she will just carry on
Does the college offer a btec level 2 in performing arts that they will take her on? She could resist the english / maths at same time, depending on grade?
Perhaps get her to take a look at the notapushym website. Particularly the threads about the difficulties if being allowed to enter or work in the US unless you have dual nationality.
I really wouldnt try to get her onto the course by negotiating a deal despite her grades. This is a golden opportunity for her to learn that actions have consequences, and it isn't even your fault. Don't waste it! If she doesn't learn this lesson, she will blow the performing arts course, and/or be totslly blown out of the water in LA by organised, together, dedicatede kids who want the same things she does- so it's not as if you will save any time....
I would be telling her to get a job tbh. Maybe a stint in the 'real world' would do her good.
the overiding frustration is that you cant MAKE them do anything at all.
strongly suggest that you leave her to it, because your best efforts will make no difference at all. i had to do this with dd1 and it killed me.
do not make her go back to school to do retakes, really. find an FE college- if necessary see what level 2 course she can do alongside a retake of english and maths. and leave her to it. also make sure she gets a crap part time job to fund her dreams.
and step away
beastofburden great post. I have to say my BIL went to a private retakes college (after being expelled ) and I always wonder why his parents paid for him to mix with a fairly over privileged and under motivated group... Even his dad called it the school for naughty boys!
Tell her she can't go and live in LA because she won't get a visa to work there (true).
My dh teaches in a performing arts college. One if the students there has just been on The Voice. He's also just done really well in his exams.
The ones who make it ate the ones who are focused and work hard.
Yes yes to not funding retakes.
Your local FE college will offer a full time GCSE course.
And step WELL back...
How about you say you will only support retakes if she gets a job to contribute/pay for it.
Loafing about doing fuck all isn't a possibility in the real world - which is what I frequently tell my 15 year old
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Weary tiger- "over privileged and under motivated" - exactly right. a more toxic combination you cannot imagine, at this stage.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Sorry- to be clear, am not saying the OPs DD is over privileged and under motivated- I am saying that if she goes to private retakes college, she will be mixing with a lot of kids who are, and that will become the new normal.
And to be brutally blunt
If she was truly talented (and capable of doing the btec perfect arts) the college would take her no matter what her grades.
She was shocked at the grades but just said she will retake them while getting a job so she can save up to hire a recording studio . I have impressed on her that with those grades getting even a part time job will be very difficult!
The local college do not offer GCSEs, nor do the two 6th forms in our area . She will have to go to the local Adult Community Learning Centre for evening courses but they only offer Maths, English and Science so she could only potentially come away with 3 anyway and she would still need 4 for the Performing Arts course or 7 for A levels (if she finally comes to her senses).
I am just totally pissed off that she seems to think it's fine that she can just waste another year redoing them when she could have had them done and dusted. Also worried about her getting sucked into a low paying job and still doing it when she's 30 while waiting to become 'famous'.
She needs a short, sharp shock, not sure what though!
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
I think you need to let her just do this for a bit. Nothing you say will make her get it.
The thing is, and I don't have a teenager yet so feel free to ignore me, I can still remember the lecturing/shouting/dictating that my parents gave me when I was a capable and bright 15 year old that wasn't interested in school. It made me feel shit and never once made me want to try harder.
She doesn't know better than you, but right now she absolutely believes that she does, and any further lectures from you just show her you have no clue and that fundamentally you don't understand her.
I think you need to let her find out for herself that she doesn't know it all, and you need to be there to help her pick up the pieces when she does.
Teen/Twins. you DD sounds very similar to mine and what you have to do if possible is get your DDs favorite Teacher to show some kind of faith or belief in DD, My DD was very disruptive from yr7 all the way up to the last few weeks of yr11 when it dawned on her that if she did not at least put a bit of effort in she was going to end up with 5Es despite having an IQ of 138, so DDs favorite teacher(ENGLISH) proposed to DD that if she could turn English/Maths from an E to D she would push for DD to repeat yr 11 again DD manged Cs in English/History, It might be a little different because DD has a STATEMENT for ADHD and other needs but you need to ask the school to perhaps readmit your DD to yr 11 again or offer a vocational way forward for her.
She passed the audition for the performing arts course with flying colours and it was very over subscribed unsurprisingly for these days. We are meeting them on next Friday to see what they say but she has nowhere near the required grades so won't get in as they told me on the phone when I rang them in a panic on Friday! She could take the lower level one year course but says she won't.
She will not be going to a private college. I meant paying for extra tutoring. She cannot afford to flunk them again.
YWNBU - in fact, you have shown great restraint in not having done so yet.
I agree with beastofburden & LEM (& others) - back right off. Tell her to sort herself out - ring the PA college & beg, find a local college to do resists or get herself a job.
Tell her if she is in education you will continue to provide her with a room, food, etcetcetc but if she is not in fulltime education and actually doing it, passing things, putting in the effort then she needs to pay you £x pw. If you don't, she will just have another year fucking around annoying you.
Live in LA & become a SoooooooooperStar. She needs a good dose of reality - get her to apply for a visa
I was thinking the same as Pictures there.
My dd and her friends who are about to start the performing arts course at college are doing a summer drama programme in preparation: starting with press-ups at 10 in the morning and working through with physical theatre and dance moves until 9 o'clock at night. Dd is full of bruises from other performers walking all over her (as part of the staircase). That is the attitude the other students on her course would have- and they would not take kindly to somebody who didn't pull their weight.
If your dd says she wants to do what it takes to be a performer (never mind a superstar) then she ought to be out there doing just that, because she can bet that is what the competition will be doing. They won't have left it this late: anyone her age who is thinking of being a singer will have formed their own band by now and be doing gigs.
To me she sounds more like somebody who is overwhelmed by the real world and hides in her dreams. Understandable but not very productive.
Agree with LEM about speaking to their college. We did have a momentary panic about dd not achieving her GCSE's (illness) and the college said they would let her do them there instead, if necessary taking an extra year, and it would have been free. It sounds as if she could do with being in a more grown-up environment. And beastofburden may well be right that a local FE college would provide such an environment.
sorry, cross-posted about the colleges
not an option then
maybe her short sharp shock would be to drop her in da hood in LA- see how long she survives! (has worked in FE colleges where there are only 2 real aspirations- one is to invent computer games, the other is to be famous).
strongly suggest she does some kind of level 2 programme full time. and gets crappo job (my dd1 ended up cleaning at a school- she is just about to start at Uni to do Film and TV production).
Perhaps you should spare a thought for some of the young people on her classes who, if not for your dd's behaviour, mght have got an A instead of a B, or a B instead of a C, etc. Who have gone home in tears because of the days events and because they wanted to learn
Yes, pray for them o.p. and so should your DD.
If it makes you feel any better, I have spent my life wishing i hadn't failed at school. (i got exactly the same grades as your DD) Mainly because I think i missed out on some learning that I have had to later catch up on.
But, i have also gained valuable life experience and have since been involved in writing papers given at conferences and attended a Russell Group university.
I didn't have the x factor though.
I'd be tempted to point out to her that the artists which end their careers with the money to fund their lifestyles, are the ones that have the education to be able to run their careers as a business. The rest of them tend to end up with much, much less than they ever hoped for
while their managers laugh all the way to the bank.
But she probably wouldn't listen to me either. Good luck.
If she took the lower level course, what would happen about her GCSE's.
She really is up on her high horse isn't she. Jesus wept I'd be on the gin by now!
..but yes, performing arts sounds like a great plan. she could branch into other things, running workshops, working with young people
who also hate school
Why does she have to move to LA to become famous? If she was really good she could be signed here surely?
And if music is her thing could you bribe her with a promise of completing her GCSEs and you offering her 3 singing lessons / help pay to hire studio or something she'd be excited about... Is she any good? Is this a crazy pipe dream?
I dunno - I'm just dreading this ....
Let her get a job. She will learn how to behave and fit in, and it will do her a lot of good. She can save up for a frigging moon rocket if she likes, better than if she blows in it in Primark and Nandos every week.
I am prepared to bet that two years in a crappy job will sort her out and she will form more realistic plans. A friend of DS screwed up his sixth form and worked part time in a dead end job for what seemed like forever, but is back on track now. He is around 3 years behind his peer group, but actually once he is 30 it will be no big deal.
Lets be honest, you are not that pleased about the performing arts dream anyway, are you? So two years spent growing out of the whole stupid idea, followed by some NVQs and a more realistic career might be a blessing in disguise.
There is no big hurry. She is taking longer than her peer group but this is a good thing,as her fundamental dream is not a great idea anyway.
Yes. My dd is only 11 and about to go to a vocational performing arts school.
Because she was told she needs to work on certain things she has spent almost her entire summer doing summer schools. She has been stretching & doing flexibility exercises daily, sometimes 3 times daily last week she spent 4 hours a day doing a summer course focusing on technique & performance skills. She has been experimenting with choreography & working on vocal excercices
She is 11.
I totally agree with Beast. let her sort herself out now, be perky and positive on her behalf rather than all doom and gloom, and let her find out for herself that life is a lot of hard work.
'You're going to move to LA? that's lovely, darling!' Etc etc. Eventually she'll discover she can't move there and she'll shut up about it.
Rummikub's suggestion is sensible ie Level 2 BTEC at FE college and resit English and maths. The reason many colleges don't offer full time GCSE resit courses is because they often don't work and students like your DC very quickly lose interest and motivation second time around and get results not much better than first time. If DC did well on level 2 BTEC and got Cs in English and maths she would probably be able to progress to the level 3 BTEC she wants to do the following year.
How old is your daughter Pictures?
Though, to be fair, if she does the one year lower level course it probably gets you onto the two year higher level course the year after, as long as you get a merit or distinction, without the GCSEs. That's often how FE works. So it could be a way forward.. If you want one....
Aw, poor you and poor her. Very frustrating all round. Does she feel shite about it now that the crunch has come and she did not do so well? Is she keen to retake and do better? She's going to have to work very, very hard to pull herself up from Fs and tbh if she is feeling quite negative and switched off, I think I might be encouraging her to consider a change of direction. Could she do a diploma or vocational qualifications see here for more info alongside English and maths GCSE and maybe a level 2 music BTEC, for example? I considered doing plumbing at college aged 16 but chickened out and did A levels when my GCSEs were ok. I'm sure I would be earning more and have more say over my working day if I'd gone with my gut and learned to plumb and I quite regret it in a way.
One of my sons has tendencies this way (brightish, disruptive, unfocused, lazy!) and I am hoping against hope that he will find some motivation and discipline this year (going into year 10 in a new school) so I really do sympathise. My other son is pretty lazy too... I can just imagine the biting of tongues and repression of fury I will have to muster if one or other of them badly underachieves because (t)he(y) just won't/can't/don't put the necessary effort in. But I do also think that some bright people just don't thrive at school and find their niche in other areas or go back to study later on. If a year of retakes = pure hellish misery with little chance of success because of continued lack of application I would definitely look at all other options. Seeing them happy and motivated and working towards something really is the important thing, I reckon.
beastofburden speaks good sense
a year or two in a boring badly paid job will do her more good than another year of lazing around at college- and it's not like her life will be over
where I grew up all the young lads had to do a year of national service;
it didn't spoil their chances forever; they were still young when the year was over
a year of national service in Primark might do her a world of good
Feel for you OP.
AS levels were when DS started to go wrong. I wish I'd been harsher at that point and made him seek work.
We are now at the point of him failing his 2nd year in uni for 2nd time. I've just said no more money being thrown after bad and 3 attempts at 2nd year is beyond me.
He now thinks he can make it in the art world
wow- millions of x posts while I was composing my reply. Will go and read them now.
I think all you can do is take a deep breath, put a brave face on and be supportive.
She knows that Iggy Azalea work 3 cleaning jobs, for 2 years, from the age of 14 to save for her plane ticket, right? And she has worked very, very hard to get where she is - and has worked as a model as well (tall willowy and gorgeous.....)
I attended drama school and yes tis very very hard work in performing arts, they just make it look easy!
Ok she fucked up but at least she has dreams; however unrealistic. Does she play an instrument or have any other talents apart from writing lyrics?
Alicia Keys and Pharrel Williams play the piano for example. She sounds very hard work but she at least has a big dream; she just needs to think of how to achieve it in a realistic fashion. I would impress upon her that there an awful lot of waiters/waitresses/wanabee actors etc in La and that it is ALWAYS wise to have a plan B. The model Lilly Cole went to Cambridge for example, Lilly Allen now runs a vintage clothes swap store. Really try to get her to build up her skills but by all means encourage the performing arts!
If she tries and fails at least she has tried but she will need to learn what hard work is pronto if she wants any success in life...You can't just get in a recording studio and start churning out hits.
What Vivacia said.
But feel free to vent here when she's not looking.
Stand back and let her apply to do whatever these "dreams" require. Reality will soon kick in.... as she realises that she can't even get a job flipping burgers
And how I hate the phrase "being supportive". A good kick up the arse and a dose of reality are what modern child needs, not endless "support..."
Dd is 11
Incidentally dh messed up his gcses but due to his ability in music was allowed to take a level music alongside gcse retakes. However the main reason he messed up gcses was that he was do focused on his music getting up at 6am to practice etc.
He gained the minimum a levels to get into music conservatoire and now works as a specialist teacher having studied at post grad level & becoming a specialist in his field.
So it is possible - but requires absolute dedication.
Ha ha! You're right lljkk about venting here.
Amother I certainly don't agree with those advocating organising everything for her, but I think being judgemental and pointing out that this is a disaster is counter-productive. I mean be supportive as in not trying to run her life for her, let her know everything and let her make her own mistakes. What other choice do you have?
Advice to let dd try and fail at her dream is attractive but it doesn't address the fact that she is not currently trying. She has not made the effort to get the grades she would need to access the performing arts course, she is not (as far as the OP suggests) doing anything about getting singing lessons, she has not started a band to get performance practice.
Her only plan seems to be dumped in the middle of LA, without any preparations and somehow to be discovered there. And how is that going to work? It's not, is the answer; it's a totally unrealistic and potentially dangerous plan. The only good thing about it is that it isn't going to happen.
To let the dd try at her dream can't happen without the cooperation of the dd: she has to get off her backside and get the grades to access the tuition she needs, and she has to do whatever it takes to get the relevant extra-curricular experience. You can't give somebody a career as a performer on a plate: they have to do it for themselves.
And you wish to say precisely whay by repeating my comment catinabox?
OP have you looked at what those who have achieved performing arts BTECs at levels 2 and/or 3 are doing five years later. How does it compare to Brit or Rada or the Royal ballet School?
If your dd wants to sing, what singing awards/exams has she achieved?
She needs to retake her GCSEs and if she doesn't want to do that she needs to get a job. At least for a year.
Is it worth exploring with her how much she wants the course if she didn't put in the work to achieve the entry qualifications.?
Wish there was a like button for corys post.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
I feel your pain. DD didn't get the grades she expected and was totally gutted. She admits she didn't work as hard as she should have.
I backed off and told her she had to sort things out herself-l had done my bit. That was a very difficult thing to do but DD1 and DS both said l could do no more and it would perhaps just take a wee bit longer to find her way.
I have been surprised over the last month and she has got herself into a college course which has the potential to lead to the course that she wanted to do. She starts on Tuesday. She admits she is nervous but she knows she mucked up and is prepared to do better.
Good luck OP.
She's only got one option and thats to retake her GCSEs at college. Shhe's not going to get on her chosen performing arts course and she's going to find getting a job with poor grades nigh on impossible also.
You might find that once she is talking to the college she will decide to do the one year course that she can do. It's different when the lecturers are telling her than when you are so she may simply believe right now that they will take her. My dd didn't get as good as we'd hoped so had to drop the ideas of doing A lvls and is doing the lvl3 btec instead but it took the college talking to her to see that it was right for her. My dd does have sen and the college has already showed themselves as far better than the school and she doesn't even start for another week.
When you speak to the college, discuss the 1 year btec levl 2 option with them it is a good choice and students do progress onto btec level 3 from this. Make sure they will offer some sort of English and maths at level 2. Are her grade d's in English and maths? If so, your dd should be able to pull them up to a c grade. Some 16 -18 year olds thrive at college. If there are learning mentors at the college, ensure your dc goes to see them straight away. They can help her with assignments, study skills and time management.
Sometimes btec qualifications suit individuals better than GCSEs. It's worth exploring.
Encourage your dd to look into music, drama, performing arts groups she can do outside of college.
I really hope the college don't give her any leeway, she isn't ready for the course and would be taking a place away from someone else who presumably would be ready to work hard and take responsibility for themselves.
I think she needs to fail and to process what failure means. She's talking about getting a job - what job? Doing what? Youth unemployment has never been higher and she has no qualifications - employers aren't going to be falling over themselves to employ her.
I know it's so, so easy for a stranger on the web to say this, but honestly I think you have to both ride it out and be prepared to write this year off. Let her struggle. Let her be unemployed. Let her be bored (and FFS don't be giving ht any money). Let her say goodbye to her mates as they move on with their lives. This time next year you will have a different girl on your hands.
... telling her "I told you so". She has let you and herself down. Why did you even phone the college for her when she got her results? You should have made her do it.
As for saving up for a recording studio... how much will she have left per week after paying you housekeeping?
Could she have adhd, the symptoms display differently in girls to boys. That could be the reason that she couldn't listen and concentrate?
jacks365 I am hoping you are right. I don't know anything apparently. Hopefully the college will put her straight. She has struggled at school with the social aspect. Falling in and out with friendships groups and has focused on anything other than schoolwork.
She is a good singer but needs work and a lot of confidence and I could slap myself for indulging her by letting her audition for X-factor earlier this year and Britains Got Talent but of course if I had'nt let her she would have blamed me for missing her chance . She has also been to LA and Las Vegas on an all expenses paid high end trip paid for by GPs when she was 14 which immediately turned her head and then she become obsessed by living there!
She has attended two different performing arts academies over the last 3 years but will not commit herself to it and has not bothered going on occasion so I stopped paying for them. She states that she will do it on her own .
It's lucky I don't drink or I dread to think what the state of my liver would be after the last 5 years and I have another 3 lots of teenage years to go! Two lots in one go with the twins - shit maybe I should start on the gin .
well, the American nonsense is easily knocked on the head, tell her to look up how she gets a visa. She doesn't, of course, and even if she buys a plane ticket she'll be bounced straight back.
Hopefully a good college adviser will be able to convince her of what she needs to do.
I wasn't thinking of paid groups, more theatre groups. If you are in a city then there should be a few options of free youth theatre groups.
It is very hard and difficult to make a success in performing arts. It will require hard work, dedication, motivation and resilience. Talent alone won't get her there. I used to work at a performing arts college and the disappointed students outweighed the successes. Always have a back up plan and place a time limit on how long you try to make it was my advice.
Does she actually know anyone who is currently in or entering on a performing arts career? A teen slightly older than herself who is doing what she would like, but who is doing it for real with all the hard work and commitment it takes? That is the kind of person she ought to be associating with by the sounds of it, if only to show her that she should maybe be looking elsewhere.
And just out of curiosity, how did she get on at X-Factor and Britain's Got Talent? I assume she didn't get far- so what did that tell her?
Sounds as if she has problems committing to things and tends to walk away if they become at all difficult - friends, study, performance... If she gets feedback she doesn't like she tries to get round it by new friends, new performance arts academies, new ways to make it in la.... Is she scared of failure, underneath all this?
Let the feedback come from others. Hopefully college will have the credibility with her to make her accept the level 1 course. Or make her see why she needs GCSEs.
I wouldn't pay for tutors unless she begs you to, when she starts to want the results to do the course. If you offer while she still doesn't care, she won't engage and you will lose your money.
Maybe, if she can't find work, she can volunteer, in some arts context. Just observing how hard they work would help her.
Cory she is of the mindset that she will not give up. Lots of successful people have endured rejection, failure is a step closer to success and all that. I suppose I have instilled in her from a young age that you can do anything if you believe you can. That has got a bit skewed and she failed to understand that she actually has to get an education to fall back on as well! I would not mind her having this dream as long as she actually was working hard in rl as well which she's not.
I personally blame Cher Lloyd as this all started with her on X-Factor. Before that DD always said she wanted to be a lawyer .
I have just discussed volunteer work with her Beast (great minds and all that). We have discussed her offering to work without pay for a few weekends to shops in town as it may at least lead to a weekend job. Try to think how we can extend that to the local theatre. Thanks.
She gets a part time job to fund her resitting of the exams and any extracurricular activities she wants to pursue. Maybe the idea of moving out of home at 18 won't look quite so attractive then though!
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
The mindset is fine, but what is she actually doing about it? Sitting in your bedroom saying to yourself "I won't give up" doesn't actually constitute not giving up, does it?
It isn't just that she is refusing to get an education to fall back on: by the sounds of it, she is not doing anything to realise her performance dream either.
Is she singing in a band? Is she working on promoting it (getting useful business experience)? Is she getting regular gigs? Is she taking singing lessons? Is she dancing or doing any other kind of movement work? Is she learning an instrument to a high standards, practising several hours a day?
I have every respect for teens with a genuine performance dream- but that includes doing something about it. If you don't do something about it, then in my book that means you are not serious about your dream.
I would sit down and gently point this out. Assure her that her dream is a respectable one but gently try to make it clear to her what other young people with similar dreams are actually doing.
Cher Lloyd studied performing arts st svhool & attended stagecoach classes before auditioning I think she'd done some gigging as well.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Oh op I am going to sound like a right bitch here and hopefully it's because of the way you're writing your posts but... You blame Cher Lloyd. You've paid for numerous courses/activities. You agreed to her auditioning for x factor and BGT. Have you ever tried just saying 'no'? Because from here it sounds like you've enabled the entitled wannabe behaviours while also quietly hoping she'll understand she needs decent exams as well.
I hope I'm wrong and that its just bits of your posts which are jumping out and making me think that. And if I'm right, well it's not too late. Lay some ground rules re what you will and will not finance and step back and let her learn some life lessons.
Cher Lloyd had also worked at holiday camps, so she had performing experience.
So (in view of the point made by jojo) a whole conversation needs to be held including:
*this is what the law says re your staying in education/training- it isn't about us being awkward, it is a legal requirement
*these are the options for education: you can retake your GCSE's through tutoring (if the family is willing to fund this), you can start on the lower level BTech and then take it from there, or you can go in for an apprenticeship
*as for your dream, that is fine, but if you are serious about it, then you need to start actively working on it, because that is what stars do
*the visa requirements mean you will not be able to go to LA or elsewhere in the US unless you already have a job signed up, so any steps towards realising your dream will have to be taken in this country
*but first of all you need to make an appointment to speak to your college because you are almost an adult and it is for you to take charge
And then step back, the next move is hers: she has to decide what she is going to do, she has to see about organising it, make it clear that you are always happy to advise but that you will not be running round doing it for her.
Performing arts courses do seem to be the most awful waste of time.
V interesting about nt being allowed to leave school. I am see that being v useful to you. She has an alibi for accepting the one year course, as she has to do something and it will keep her hand in.
You may find the GCSE thing doesn't happen for a while, unless she needs it to progress to the next level of the course. By the time she is adult enough to want to do them, she will be old enough to commute to a college that offers them, I guess.
Does she do any kind of extra-curricular performing arts classes? Singing, music, dance ie proper training? Frankly, she wouldn't last an hour with that sort of attitude. I blame the X Factor.
You say you support her dream. But you as a parent need to research what it really takes to make it in the performing arts as a professional.
At the moment, she hasn't a chance, and it would be a good thing to expose her to proper training and learn how to support her realistically. And ban any watching of television talent shows. The people that appear to just "come off the streets" to win them don't. They have generally been training in some kind of formal music or dance training since early teens.
I suppose I have instilled in her from a young age that you can do anything if you believe you can
Er, no, not in the performing arts. YABU in feeding this by letting her audition etc. But if you don't have a performing arts background I suppose you weren't to know.
As a stage mother, be a good one, not an enabler of dreams which are no more than that. I was brought up in a family of professional theatre people -- I'm not, because I know what extraordinary talent, training, hard work, and luck is needed. Not just "best little singer at her school" sort of talent.
So good luck. You'll both need it!
Or.. Given that the poor OP is completely ignored, even when she is right.. Could someone else act as a mentor to her and tell her what she needs to know?
I only know about classical music training, but in that world she is middle aged and would need to have a pretty damn good CV already to be credible as a future performer. I am guessing the music she wants to do is a more flexible world, but not completely flexible, from what others are saying.
I used to work in performing arts with pros. It's very hard work, they are physically very fit, very disciplined. They put a lot of outside training in, the hours are long, the pay is crap if you aren't lead.
Why would your dds retakes be at an addutional cost when lots of FE colleges run them?
The extra year doing retakes could be a blessing in disguise as maybe she needs the extra.year to mature and would thrive in a college environment.
I feel a bit sorry for the little girl if adults have colluded in her disillusion.
Sounds like she wants to go into mainstream pop...is there a local music scene she's part of, even if it's just going to shows? Because talking to musicians that are actively playing could make it hit home. It's bloody hard work, and takes years to get any kind of reward. One very good friend of mine plays four or five shows a week in addition to working a regular job, and is still only really well known at a local level.
I can advise on venues she could visit and bands/artists she could speak to if you like, I'm still pretty up on local music in the UK thanks to my friend. Just PM me if you think it might help.
Dd does musical theatre in her spare time. She's just done gases...got 10 decent ones.
She wants to do "something" involving singing (not pop, in the theatre)
I have always been very realistic with her...yes she has a voice, but so do thousands of others. The chances of her making a living from singing are remote. She has had to work very hard to get her grades at goes, and is now embarking on A levels, where she will have to work even harder.
And she hates X factor etc....
Your dd sounds as if she wants everything handed to her on a plate.
WaitressRose Mon 26-Aug-13 00:52:12
"Performing arts courses do seem to be the most awful waste of time."
Performing arts courses are not the same as lurking in your bedroom dreaming dreams of stardom. They are actually very hard work and can be excellent at instilling discipline, planning skills and people skills which are then transferable into other jobs.
It's the same with music. I teach a totally unrelated (but difficult) subject at university and the music students who do my modules are nearly always the best ones because they have learnt to do hard and boring preparation for many hours a day without complaining. I'd expect the same from a performing arts student who had done the course and stuck to it. (the ones who go to pieces are usually the relatively clever ones who have sailed through 3 academic A-levels by just reading the books on the reading list and never done half an hour in excess- you can't get away with that attitude in performing arts)
The problem with the OP's dd is that she thinks she can somehow bypass this ordinary process of many years of planning and strategic thinking and hard slog.
Agree with other posters that the way the X-factor/Britain's Got Talent programmes are edited is not very helpful: if she googles some of the successful contestants she will get a far better idea.
Take Susan Boyle, for instance: the story sold by television is that she was a sudden rags to riches discovery who just happened to have this amazing voice.
In actual fact (or at least according to Wikipedia):
her father was a singer, so she will have had some mentoring from early childhood
she took lessons from a vocal coach
she attended Edinburgh Acting School
she sang with her local church choir at home but also in concerts and on pilgrimages
she had entered and won several local singing competitions
Yes, she was a lady with a learning disability, but what she was not was a lady with a learning disability and no training. The hurdle she had to overcome was that she didn't look the part, not that she didn't know enough about it.
Even the boys in One Direction had a lot more experience/training than the X-actor show suggested.
I think teens need to stay in education, or work based training, until they are 17 now. Your dd may not get on the course she wanted - assuming level 3? But she should be offered a level 2 course instead. I think it is also compulsory for students to re-take their English and Maths Gcses at 6th form colleges etc if they haven't achieved a C. I work with students at risk of being NEET (hate that acronym) and in my area this is how it is going to work this year.
"I think it is also compulsory for students to re-take their English and Maths Gcses at 6th form colleges etc if they haven't achieved a C."
That is how it works in our area, Harlot
Thinking you can avoid hard slog used to be an occupational hazard for the young though. It was almost universal in my (long ago) youth and a point of honour to do, or at least to be seen to do, as little work as possible. People who had done well by working hard were rather frowned upon. Intelligent slacker was the aim of the game and realising that this was an impossible goal because you weren't nearly as clever as you thought was part of growing up. Part of me is always rather horrified and shocked when I meet very dedicated and hard working youngsters who know this fact at 11 because they've been doing SATs since age 7 in this more ascetic age. In some ways I think doing it the traditional slacker way with a major fuck up along the way as your dd has done is not necessarily unhealthy. [nostalgic]
It's all about realistic expectations isn't it; not too disimilar from another thread Cory.
Our own dd would like to act. She has attended a theatre school since she was six; she is heavily involved with drama at school (although not doing GCSE drama); she has had major roles in many productions over the years. Also she has singing lessons and took her RSCM silver award; she also plays piano (grade 6).
We will fund RADA and she knows this but she also knows it will not be until she has obtained the qualifications that will allow her to earn a living and has worked for two years. She's not sure what that living will be but if she wants RADA enough she knows what she has to do.
We know many people who have done RADA in search of an acting career. We know one who earnt a living from it and that is nowadays largely from writing rather than acting.
Ultimately I can see our dd working as something like a speech therapist utilising her language/acting talents. I'm not going to stop her dream and will support it as far as is reasonable but she will have to be realistic and be prepared to earn an alternative living. Dreams don't pay the bills and she will need marketable skills to fall back on.
Our dd has been disciplined over her music, techniques and learning lines. I reckon she has less than a 1% chance if she follows her dream. I would love to see her succeed but there has to be some realism in there.
It's not unhealthy in most ordinary careers, Acrylic, but traditional slacking has never been an option for performers. They have always started young and worked hard.
It's fine for an academic to peak in their mid-thirties but a singer needs to get going a lot earlier.
Just popping on again to agree with Cory that music students can be extremely good employees in later life, because they have learnt that being good at something involves working hard at the fundamentals for many hours a day.
When I say theatre school I mean extra-curricula (never sure if there should be an r) not full-time. She goes to mainstream school and always has.
Very similar story and attitude in this household, marriedinwhite. Yes, we will support acting training, but there has to be a Plan B. And before we support anything, we want to see signs of commitment.
To be fair, the people I know who have gone through stage school and not been able to make a living on the stage have often been able to use transferable skills to earn a living elsewhere, even if it's something totally different like working for the local council. A bit like doing a degree in history or English literature: most of our graduates do actually end up in employment if not in the kind of employment they dreamed of.
I know I've told this story before, but my db started out as a musician, was unable to continue but has been very successful as an academic in an unrelated discipline; I have no doubt that he is using his music training, though in an indirect fashion.
Have to agree that she probably wouldn't last two minutes in performing arts.
My daughter is 10, but already dances EVERY day for a minimum of 2 hours a day. She also has weekly vocal coaching. She has danced from a very young age (2) and we have forgone holidays for her to attend summer schools/ workshops etc. even in the holidays she has had 3 ballet classes and two body conditioning classes a week as well as having attended several workshops and a couple of summer courses.
The dance school she attends offer full time courses from 16+ and we have watched many youngsters think it is an easy option and leave after a couple of months. It takes a lot of work to get to the top and the ones who do well on the big shows like BGT and X factor have almost always had a lot of training. Look at the pp who detailed SuBo. Think Attraction this year, George Sampson, flawless, these are not hashed together in the holding room routines. Far from it. They are honed, perfected and then presented to the world.
I agree - the training and discipline are invaluable. My mother was a ballerina and when she gave up dancing altogether spent 25 years building up and running a successful business with my step father.
Tough having a quirky one isn't it though.
Aw, I feel for you both, OP!
And, as a secondary teacher, I am familiar with the scenario!
Despite all the swagger, she must be a bit disappointed with herself. These are complex emotions for young teenagers to process or show. If she is like 99% of others I have seen in this situation, she will be feeling very insecure but desperate for someone to blame for not fulfilling her dreams in the future. ('It's not fair, I could have been a big pop star if...')
BEWARE! This is a role you don't want!
My advice is to start from the end. On the surface, be 'supportive'. But do not do anything proactive for her. IMO, your job is to help her along her own way now. But let her come to the conclusions of what she can or can't do herself.
This is really important to an immature little adult. You saying 'but you won't get a visa for LA! Yuo need to do this instead!' translates as 'You can't do this! You have to do what I want you to do!'
Any teen worth their internet access will then respond with 'I'll show you! Stop ruining my perfect future!'
Instead, start at the end together. Right, so let's see what you need to be a big star in LA! (wrestle the sarcasm out of your voice, btw!)
How much is a flight?
How do you get a visa?
Where are you going to stay?
How do you get an agent?
Let her research this - you help her if you can. Act as if it is actually going to happen. Then she has to 'work backwards'. So a flight is £700? Right, write out your plan of how to save this. So you need a job to get a visa? Ok - what kind of job? Etc.
She will eventually arrive at the same conclusion as you! She needs some qualifications or proof of discipline/achievement. She needs money. She needs a job. She needs a specific goal.
Then it is up to her to sort them all out, with you cheering along from the sidelines!
A maths teacher and I (English) had to conspire this way with a kid who was adamant he didn't need his GCSEs because he was going to be a drug dealer.
He is now a mechanic, with a GCSE in both subjects. <eyes grey hairs>
Yes indeed, married. My ds has always seemed more quirky, but is thankfully still young, so more time to work on him and try to instill some sense of reality. Am clinging to the hope that once he realises that his mates are growing up, he will start considering the same option for himself
Going back to the OP, another thing someone ought to point out to her dd is that the big tantrums and strops on X-factor are to a great extent stage managed: in real life, getting on in performing arts is very much about teamwork and people skills- and organisation.
Excellent advice from Eggsiseggs there.
I don't know, cory. She could be the next Jarvis Cocker, perhaps. This GCSE minor disaster could be just the dose of disaffection she needs to add some humour, humility and social commentary to her rap lyrics and move away from the meaningless, empty, mass produced pap that is x factor. And then she shall have my worship! And become an establishment figure with her own radio 6 show in her very late 40s. You're not in Sheffield are you, TTT&T?
And I would also suggest in the same vein as Eggsiseggs that she checks up the performers she admires, looks at the kind of background they have, what they have done to arrive there, what can she do from where she is now.
Don't do the work for it, don't present it in a negative way (I'm going to prove to you that you can't do this), but make it positive (see if you can find out how this sector works).
Looking back, this is probably how I did deal with dd when she was very young and kept blaming me for not letting her audition for film roles.
-Yes, I can see that it's tough for you, but let's first think about what you can do to give yourself a better chance. Why don't you go and find out what other people have done?
And of course the first thing she found out from google was that people like Daniel Radcliffe and Emma Watson had been training at stage school for many years before they auditioned for HP and that even Rupert Grint had been attending his local youth theatre; that it's not a case of standing in a line-up and somebody suddenly walks on and instantly spots your star quality.
Sorry, thread has moved on massively! Slow distracted slacker here.My last post was in response to cory @9.43. Agree that Eggsiseggs has v wise advise and big smile and respect to her for transforming the drug dealer wannabe into a respectable mechanic.
Acrylic, I think Jarvis Cocker would be a fine role model- didn't he found the Pulp aged 15? That is precisely the sort of thing we're talking about: if she wants to perform, she shouldn't be sitting in her bedroom, she should be out there doing it.
Prints off eggsiseggs post for future reference.
Yes he did. And the dd is spending hours writing rap lyrics aged 15/16 so all is not lost! If she keeps going and believing the dream whilst all around her tut at failed exams she can burst onto the music scene in 16 years or so.
eggsiseggs, I take off my hat to you and sweep you a low bow. What a great story and much wise advice.
Writing rap lyrics is good, but it's only a small part of being a rapper. You need to be out there testing what works on an audience, getting used to working with a band, getting used to the whole performance experience and maintaining a certain level of physical fitness. You don't suddenly burst on any scene until you have been doing those things over a long period of time.
I don't blame the OP at all for having always encouraged the child to believe that you can do whatever you dream. We all love our kids, and we want them to reach high and not be negative and depressed.
I do wish however that there was another narrative that we could all use instead. It's just not true that if you want something enough, it will come true. OP says herself, she intended it to mean that commitment and vision will help you handle the hard work, but the child has only heard the bit about dreams coming true and not the bit about hard work. Even her determination (failure makes me stronger) doesn't translate into hard work.
I thought this was mainly a USA thing, and I used to think that there was some code, that people said these things but everyone knew underneath it wasn't really true. I don't think OPs daughter is being unusual- this whole culture of talent spotting on telly does seem to be very damaging to the fact that the teen years are actually an apprenticeship for adult life.
Still, what does work in her favour is she is young, and we have a more flexible world than we used to. One of the students retaking GCSEs with my disabled DD this year was 30. He didn't have any disability, he had just made poor choices when younger. Not the end of the world, he is moving ahead now.
Good post, beastofburden. I do occasionally come across students who have suffered from the "American dream" to the point of losing touch with reality, and sometimes the awakening is very hard indeed.
Not entirely a new thing of course. I also have another family member, highly gifted who has cherished another dream, but never actually taken the trouble to think the costs through and planned to make it happen. After close on 50 years I am beginning to lose patience with hearing that "of course I should have done x instead".
Well, either you wanted to do x and then you should have taken the trouble to find out how to achieve it and what you had to sacrifice, or else you did not want to pay the cost (n terms of sacrificing all other interests) of doing x and then I think it is time to take ownership of that decision.
Not saying the OP's dd has to arrive there yet, she is young and we need to cut her some slack. And as beast says, it is a more flexible world.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
That's exactly what I did myself. I had formal classical training at a music college until I was about 15 (think three grade 8s by the age of 12) and then they sat me down and said, well, you would make a good orchestral player but no solo career for you. Fnacy that? And I thought, hell, no, I'll go to Uni and do modern languages in that case....
But every day, that early training is useful.
So your friends sort of served apprenticeships then secondcoming, ie, showed some significant commitment. There's always some luck involved however you do it I think but people to a large extent make their own or facilitate luck.
Although Jarvis Cocker's father is Mac Cocker, a famous DJ and music journalist in Australia. One of the founders of Double Jay (now Triple Jay). So some connection there, even though Cocker snt and jnr are alienated.
Some excellent advice here. My mother was an actress and anger, ditto 2 of my sisters. All properly earn their livings that way. I was brought up to think that if I'm not half an hour early to warm up, I'm late.
That's a transferable skill and attitude for any other life activity.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
I would give her two options...
Do retakes and get a part-time job to support herself as you will no longer be shelling out pocket money.
Get a job.
After all, she needs to save up for that flight to LA. I think you need to let her find her own (hard) way.
How about taking a different approach? She won't get a working visa to the US, but she could go as an au pair on a 12 month visa. Part of the requirement is that she attends education or training (usually a local community college) while she is working, so she could attend performing arts classes. She gets room and board and a living allowance. It might allow her to see what living in the country is really like and also allow her some time to grow up.
What job is she going to get though because with no expereince and poor grades, what has she got to offer an employer? She's also younger than 18 which rules out any form of bar work (a common casual job) so what sort of job is she going to get considering that there are far better candidates chasing the few jobs that are around for young people. She has to go back and do her GCSEs again, its her only option.
Eggsiseggs, would you mind posting the plan for becoming a drug dealer that you worked out for your wayward student? I am a bit short of cash this month
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
What is your dd doing at the moment OP. as in this very moment
Y dd is sitting with her net book going through songs choreographing working out what works and what doesn't. This is after she's done half an hour of stretching
If she was into rap I guess the equivalent would be writing lyrics, testing rhythms seeing what works in performance, playing about with GarageBand - then finding an audience and testing it out.
My god, this could be my BIL but replace LA with Canada and pop star with tattoo artist No interest in graphic art or tattooing as a job bar getting two small tattoos.
I sometimes wonder if he sets totally unrealistic goals and expectations because he's safe in the knowledge that they can't be achieved and then he can blame everyone around him and/or shoot the messenger.
When he told me about Canada I asked him about the visa thing, he said he didn't need one because he was British (umm...yes you do if you're working) and then I heard he was telling people that I was "crushing his dreams"
I am almost disappointed by the cynicism and, in my opinion, unforgiving attitude towards a 16 year old on this thread. But I suppose I'm a little naive.
She is a kid. Not everyone matures at the same rate, not everyone is earnestly working towards their career from childhood. At 16, she has ample time to spend a year or two or three experimenting with what makes her tick and forming a rough plan. And it's balls to suggest that because she hasn't been in a band for a few years already/ spent summers stretching since she was 11 that she cannot be a successful performer. I
I think I'd encourage her with the dream of being a rapper, but to look for other things as well that fit in with that that could earn her some money- as someone mentioned running workshops etc.
Good luck with that, you must have the patience of a saint. Pay for her resits but make her do jobs round the house to earn the money to pay for them.
However, are you sure she will work hard at her resits or just mess about and get bad grades again? I know that GCSEs are important and I would want resits if it was my child but if she doesn't want to do it then can you let her have a year to look for a job or an apprenticeship and realise it is not all a bowl of cherries and then do her resits?
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
You want this unqualified, unmotivated, disruptive child to run a workshop?
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
No, I've already said support her but don't encourage any more of these unsubstantiated dreams.
She was interested in getting in to college to study performing arts. Where was her commitment to getting on to that?
But the point Is she doesn't seem to be doing anything. And she can't expect to muck around forever with the OP paying for her to do nothing.
If she's that unbothered then resits will be pointless.
In that case the only thing left will be for her to get a job.
Maybe she would be motivated if she were doing something she was interested in? Or do we write her off now?
She could have easily got in to the course she wanted, but chose not to do the work. Now she's choosing not to take the lower level course as an alternative path to what she claims she wants to do. She may be still a young person, but even young people need a dose of reality now and then.
Vivacia- no, I want her to explore and mature and work out what she enjoys and could be fulfilled by doing first.
I merely suggest that teaching music/ performance workshops may well be one such thing, down the road, when she has a mixture of experience and certificate/ diplomas (not neccesarily academic, maybe something like The Guildhall teaching diploma) under her belt.
Pictures, I'm super pleased for you that you have such a dedicated little worker bee for an eleven year old daughter. But not everyone is like that. Not everyone takes the linear, straightforward path. You are quite right that nobody can suspend growing up and be static forever, being supported by parents- but this really is not the situation. This girl has passions, has something she wants to do- that's good. She can widen her net and find other things that stimulate her interests.
TheSecondComing- highfive You make me feel less mad on this thread!
We've all had failures and needed a (metaphorical) kick up the backside at times, it's how we respond to the failures that makes the difference. I think it's really harsh to write off DD, she obviously has interests and drives (demonstrated by the lyric writing. )
Instead of paying for studio time she may be better investing in a good USB microphone, then she can play around writing/recording music at home, getting them on you-tube and building a reputation. I think Pop/rap is different from musical theatre, you don't need the classical singing/dance training, in fact I think it can be a disadvantage polishing out the raw edge and appearing too "perfect" .
Maybe you could promise to buy one for her, if she passes her re-sits?
Wishing you and her all the best, one failure at 16 is NOT the end.
I'm not so sure she does "have passions" Indestructible. As Xiaoxiong suggests, do some people choose unobtainable dreams as a protection against failure? I.e. they were bound to fail, so it's not their fault.
I am almost disappointed by the cynicism and, in my opinion, unforgiving attitude towards a 16 year old on this thread. But I suppose I'm a little naive
The comments that might seem to you to be 'unforgiving' are -- on my part anyway -- coming from long experience of training in the performing arts. I'm being as realistic as I can from a lifetime's experience of 2 generations of professional performers.
We can't know, without seeing her, how talented the OP's daughter is. But the behaviour described is not going to get her a career.
There really are no "picked off the street" star performers. Really - none. There is training, years if it, in a variety of skills. And there is discipline and clear-sighted thinking from the person concerned and tho around the person.
It is not a cynical attitude, Indestructible. As presented by Eggs, it is a very positive attitude: yes, it's a great dream, let's see what you could do about it.
If you had a son who showed talent at football and wanted to forego all other career plans to become a professional footballer, would it be cynical and cruel to point out that his first point of call should be to get into a youth team and play with other good players rather than just kick a ball around in the back garden and dream of stardom? Wouldn't that be a nicer thing for him to do anyway, assuming that he actually loved the game? Surely, even for a very immature teenager, if you love something being out there and actually doing it is better than doing nothing?
TheSecondComing Mon 26-Aug-13 11:05:08
"Not really cory. They could just do it (the musicians) could write songs and play music. They had talent. My ex (who is 41 now) has a grade d in cookery as his only qualification. He has made a good living working in and around music. And has done since he was 16. A lot of it is about contacts- who is working with who, who you know... "
That rather seems to prove the point: your ex was being pro-active and finding himself work from age 16.
The problem with the OP's dd is not that her dreams are wrong but that she does not love the work enough to stick with it: she has tried two performing academies according to the OP and just stopped attending when she didn't feel like it. She had a chance to go to performing arts course if she worked hard in class and she didn't care enough to do that.
"Maybe she would be motivated if she were doing something she was interested in?"
I think you've nailed it here. She needs to find something, anything, that she enjoys doing on a day to day level rather than for the sake of dreams of distant stardom. It doesn't sound at the moment as if performing arts is it. But there might be something else. Maybe an apprenticeship would be a good thing.
UptheChimney- my background is in the performing arts myself So I do also have a handle on the field.
Vivacia- that's kind of missing my point- we can't know if this girl is driven by the music rather than the possible fame, I know. But the fact she has energy and gets excited about the rapping thing- to me that shows there is lots of energy and enthusiasm there. It's a matter of harnessing it, and at 16 she has loads of time.
Cory- I wasn't referring to the positive supportive attitude, rather the rather surprising amount of cutting opinions that she needs to grow up/ get a low paid job/ has no commitment etc.
Agree with your second paragraph at 12:23 completely Indestructible.
Indestructible, your ideas about saving up for better equipment and putting stuff on YouTube sounds a good one. The problem for this girl atm seems to be that she is very isolated and seems to live in her own little bubble: she needs to start interacting with others about her music.
Loads of time for what? Exactly how long would you give her to sit around and do nothing in pursuit of this dream?
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Midnite, I have never said "sit around and do nothing". What I have said is to explore and experiment and find out what she enjoys, take steps towards becoming skilled in those areas, and consider what could become a career/ job, that feeds into her real long-term goals. Which might be music but equally might turn out to be something else. Because she's 16. She doesn't have to have all the answers at 16.
The problem for this girl atm seems to be that she is very isolated and seems to live in her own little bubble: she needs to start interacting with others about her music.
Exactly. It's the equivalent of me hitting a tennis ball against the garage wall in preparation for my dream of winning Wimbledon. So long as you don't do what you do publicly, no-one can tell you you're not going to make it. I think the key thing in the arts is emotional resilience. You have to cope with a lot of rejection before someone (maybe) "gets" you. You have to love what you're doing and be prepared to do it despite the fact that maybe no-one will ever "get" you. Maybe she doesn't have to go to a performing arts school, but she does need to get out there, and be prepared to take advice, some of which will not be what she wants to hear. You have to network. You have to do stuff you'd rather not, just like any other job.
Using it as a lever sounds like a good idea. Some kind of trade-off: you do x and we will help with y. But the prerequisite for the trade-off should be that the girl herself takes responsibility for making any arrangements.
I think you misunderstand TheSecondComing. Noone is saying that stage school or ballet school were a prerequisite, those were just examples of the type of commitment.
The point is that if you have dreams about a performing career (or any other career) you go out there and find out what possible different paths there might be, what other people in the field have done, and then you plan accordingly.
For somebody who dreams of acting that may mean stage school (increasingly common these days), or it may mean a university with a very good drama course, or it may mean youth theatres and working on the fringe. All those are possible ways in. But it's not going to be sitting at home in your own room with your dreams.
For someone dreaming of a career as a singer, it may or may not mean formal singing training, but it is certainly going to include taking active steps to perform in front of an audience, usually in some kind of band.
I think you need to back right off and trust that she will do the right thing.
Sounds like she's had a rubbish time at school and, let's face it, trying to force her hasn't worked.
Tell her she is 16 now and you are handing over the reigns. She is responsible for whatever she does and you will point her in the direction of information /support but you won't sort it for her.
Let her talk to the college. Give her a lift but let her go in alone and tell her you trust her to make her own decisions because everything is easier when it is our choice and it is her life, not yours.
Listen to what she has to say (really listen) and ask her if you can do anything practical (not financial - let her make her own money if she wants to access a recording studio etc but offer suggestions for finding work) to help.
It's a hard route to take but you have to let her find her own way.
Of course she will make mistakes but you can help a lot by changing the dynamics and being a supportive advisor rather than someone who treats her like a child and doesn't trust her.
Obviously she has to respect you in return - it's a two way street but that tends to come naturally if you really do step back and support rather than take over.
Work with her, not against her. Rebelling is boring if your parent doesn't stop you doing it!
Re-reading the OP, would it be worth having your daughter assessed by one of the psycho-analytic career counselling services. Morrisby ? Is one I think. My son's school puts all the boys through this and it looks at aptitude and personality as well as career paths and intellectual strengths and weaknesses. It affirmed what we knew but I wonder if there are "issues" faced by your dd that have not been picked up. Could an underlying problem like dyslexia, ADD, ODD, be at the root of her bad behaviour which she has used to cover up what she feels are short-comings. The more I re-read your OP the more I think something else is going on here. Did the school ever assess her as a result of her behaviour?
It's a good plan He11y, but the OP needs to have thought through how she will handle it if her dd simply does nothing. Letting her sit at home aged 16 is no longer a legal option (it would also mean the stopping of child benefit). If the dd doesn't sort out some kind of education/apprenticeship by September, it will be the OP who has to deal with the legal implications.
So the bottom line will have to be that the dd has to organise something.
But otherwise I totally agree.
On the au-pair suggestion - we used to have au-pairs. We wouldn't have taken an under 18 and selected girls who: had experience of childcare (babysitting or younger siblings), could prepare simple meals, and who had followed a sport or another interest such as a musical interest seriously to indicate enthusiasm and commitment. We had, unfailingly girls who had finished the equivalent of 6th form and who were waiting to start teacher training, art foundation, the police force, etc in their own country - one just wanted to improve her English before gong to uni I recall. All provided excellent references from their schools, their sports coaches and those they had done odd jobs/ptime jobs for. The OP's dd is a long way off being in that situation from what I can see.
I feel for you OP and hope this will be a catalyst for both of you.
I think she has to be clear about that, Cory, so she knows it is the law that is making that decision and not them.
But what she chooses to do within the law is up to her.
I also wonder if there is an undiagnosed learning difficulty, marriedinwhitesback. In fact, the OP's posts are screaming that at me!
agree au pair work would probably be difficult at her age; agencies always seem to ask for 18+
the volunteering the OP mentioned sounds more useful
I was thinking the same, married and He11y. I have dealt with people with ADHD in the past, and that sense of being out of touch with reality is something I recognise. It can actually be a great strength; they carry on regardless because they simply don't understand the odds. But they need guidance because they can be equally unrealistic in their choice of ways and means.
Another thought is that NT teens do also react with unrealistic strops when they don't see their way forward, and that something small and practical to do can make all the difference.
Dd did come across as equally unreasonable a few years ago when she was tied to a wheelchair and missing copious amounts of school. I imagine she knew in her heart of hearts that this was not the time to be signing up for film auditions or looking around for an agent but somehow it became an expression for her frustrations. Now that she is black and blue and being walked all over by sturdy RADA applicants, her dreams are a lot smaller but she is also a lot happier.
The main problem for the OP just now, imo, is that there isn't a lot of time. The law demands that her dd should be in (more or less) full time education for the next academic year, but the colleges start next week, and it is going to be very difficult to get a place halfway through the term. College interviews are held this week, not throughout the year. So realistically, the OP has a day or two to get her dd on board to the point where she at least agrees to speak to the college.
OP, I'd let her go out to work. After a few years, she'll realise how much everything costs, what education she needs to progress to a higher paid job, and eat humble pie and go back and do these courses, maybe go to university as well.
Reality will catch up with her soon enough. I'd say as little as possible, though it must be horrendously difficult.
Storytime: my friend, who got similar marks to your daughter, went a bit wild, left highschool, got a crap job in a shop, saved up and travelled overseas for ages, earning as she went (teaching English, working in ski resorts). She had a blast. Then she sobered up, did science at the community college and has just been accepted into the second year of medical school at the grand old age of 28. So, long-term, it worked out for her, but she just wasn't able to knuckle down when she was a teenager. Nothing could have made her, and it's a shame her mother reacted as badly as she did (kicked her out, so that my friend was living in a car in another friend's backyard one winter) because now my friend and her mum don't speak at all.
maltesefalcon, did you not read jojo's post? The law has changed, allowing her to leave education at 16 is no longer an option:
"In 2008, a new law was passed that makes important changes for all young people in England. The new law is called the Education and Skills Act 2008. It says that by 2013, all young people in England have to stay on in education or training at least part-time until they are 17 years old. By 2015, all young people will have to stay on in education or training at least part-time, until they are 18 years old.
This means that young people are required to participate in education or training through either:
*full-time education or training, including school, college and home education;
work-based learning, such as an Apprenticeship, or
part-time education or training or volunteering more than 20 hours a week.*"
If she got a job she would have to show that it contained a training element, like an apprenticeship.
With any luck she will decide that the lower level course and some retakes are the best option given the new law on leaving school. The good news is she already has that place.
Not saying I necessarily approve of this law, but speaking as someone who has had to spend endless hours sweet-talking EWO's I would not encourage the OP and her dd to ignore it either.
The lower level course sounds like the best option to me tbh. It might just be the opportunity she needs to meet some new people and regain her drive.
Ha ha Holla, it was quite an eye-opener!
Think the Maths teacher and I realised we had a better time at university than is strictly professional, though
I have come to the conclusion that maturity in teens is realising that you are responsible for your own outcomes in life. That is a scary and exciting realisation all at once, and this is what we should help our kids with.
It took me quite a while to realise that my lower-than-expected A Level grade wasn't all the 'shit teacher's fault': she was shit, but I didn't do anything to compensate for this in that subject (extra study, tell anyone, look for an alternative). So no matter how talented I am, I am always going to be beaten by the one who has talent and puts in the extra effort. (Voila MATURITY)
In fact, you can be surpassed by someone less talented than you who works harder or is more proactive.
Despite doing generally well, I never 'shone' until I was in my early twenties and half-way through a degree because I never really believed I could control my outcomes through my own efforts and decisions (Was much-loved, if a little mollycoddled, as a teenager!!!).
Have faith, OP. I can't help seeing an insecure girl here who is being defiant because she is confused and disappointed. Give her control, and present her with related options, not ultimatums, is my advice.
And drink some . Lots and lots of through that gritted teeth smile...
My nice went to art college and she said she thought those who did the foundation year were better off.
Her first year was shared with some who had done the foundation year so were at the same level as her but they had a years experience under their belt.
She said they already knew all the jargon/teachers/classes/layout etc and had had a year to decide where their interests lay, so could just get on with it in the second year.
She kind of envied them for that.
Ah, you see, the philosophy of 'work hard and you can be whatever you want' applies to a great many careers but not the following:
Unfortunately, the constant bullshit of 'I'm not putting you through because I just don't think you want it badly enough' that we see on telly talent shows just reinforces the lie.
I've worked in the industry for 20 years. So many successful performers are where they are purely because of 1) luck, and 2) looking the right way.
As a former lecturer of FE, I can tell you that even if your DD graciously accepts a place on the Level 2 course, you may not still get the golden GCSEs in Maths and English, as the college in question may only offer Essential Skills qualifications. Some universities do not accept these, and will only accept GCSE Maths and English. All this will be irrelevant to your DD of course, because by then she will have happened by sheer good fortune to have had a chance meeting with Will.i.am at South Mimms Service Station (see point 1 above) and he will have asked her to write a rap for his latest album.
Tell your dd to watch the 1949 benefit programme on ch4 od. It features a 19 year old rapper wannabe!
God know, that programme's premis and execution is horrible.
It's shite in many ways but I smiled at seeing the teen rapper on it, remembering this thread. He released a single!
I am cringing at the errors in my last post
Maybe education just isn't for her. My (very bright) brother was like this, failed all but two of his and didn't get onto his college course. I forced him into a potwash job at the restaurant I was waitressing at while home from uni, they kept him on and eventually put him through chefing qualifications on the job. Now at 26 he's running his own kitchen (still with no GCSEs). It might just be that you need to find a different path.
I know I shouldn't laugh but OP you describe it so well. I am unsure what to suggest for your dd but you my dear should have your own column. Not many people can write like this but readers love it. It is way more soothing to the fragile ego than tales of a high achiever.
My cousin was like this. Still is really. He has become semi famous but the riches aren't exactly flowing. He and his girlfriend, another would-be starlet, live with her mother and their dd in a one-bed flat. Heavily invested in social media. You get the picture.
I know the law has changed so that you have to be in some form of education or training until 17 but surely she can still get an apprenticeship? That way she'd be working and earning money too and still might give her a dose of reality.
DS1 messed up school and GCSE's. I didn't do the 'i told you so'. He did some dead end jobs for three years before announcing he regretted mucking about at school and wanted to go to college. He ended up getting a BTEC in I.T and excellent job in a bank. He's now 24.
She sounds like me when I was a teen lol. I messed up my GCSEs but I'm now a fully qualified teaching assistant for primary and secondary schools and i also did a re-sit for english and maths and now have an A* English and an A in maths. I'm 26 so it has come a little late i suppose but bearing in mind ive had 3 children whilst getting these qualifications. I think I've done pretty well .
tbh I think you need to take a step back . Only the reality of having no choices and advice of independent people will have any impact. Let the college say no and suggest options for next year. She wants the glory of performing but doesn't really sound that committed to getting the skills and practical experience to back it up. Had she flunked the academics but got other things to her credit that may open alternative courses. Without any serious substance or qualifications the outlook is fairly bleak. I suspect she would also become quite dispirited if she didn't make it easily and quick.
Or give help that is less directed at career and more about your DD. She sounds scared to try (friends, school, getting into music) and that is sad. It must be so difficult to get that perfect recipe of discipline and confidence-boosting. No concrete ideas from me, I'm afraid. The teenage years are a decade away for my two.
It is a myth that 'it just happens' to superstars... and that education doesn't matter.
they have to put in a lot of effort and determination and persistance to get where they are.
Look at the ones who make it:
Brian May (Queen) PhD in nuclear physics or summat
All of the UB40 band were graduates of Royal College of Music
Robin Thicke - entertainment royalty, well educated
Kanye West - mum a professor
Mick Jagger - grammar school
David Bowie - grammar school
etc etc etc.
Clever, talented people and that is just the beginning.
The only one I can think of now who isn't, is Pharrell. He made it on his own. But not by being idle by working really hard.
Pharrell started N.E.R.D. at school with two friends and they slogged and slogged until they got somewhere.
I think the college rejecting her is a GOOD thing.
Take it from an old guy (Well 30 years old) who went back to uni that age doesn't matter, life is not over because of a few bad GCSE's.
The major problem here is that your DD has unrealistic expectations and is probably a bit lazy to boot.
If I were you I wouldn't keep your daughter in money terms and wouldn't try and find courses for her. If you do all the work then she has no investment in the issue and you will end up in a few years with the exact same problem is: poor grades.
I would basically say "do what you want", charge a little board for her room and food. Let her try and get a job and work in a dead-end position for a few years. That's of course of she can find a job!
I would also let her try and find her dream of stardom. Of course it's unlikely she will make it and the rejection will show her how harsh show business is away from the xfactor glitz and glamour!
In a weird way this could turn out to be a positive for your DD. Many young students (And I see many of them) are mollycoddled and come out of uni with no work experience and no idea how tough life can be outside the comfort of campus life.
And when your daughter, sick of her lack of decent employment and constant rejection one day says "I want to go back to college". That's the day you support her and offer her all the help in the world!
Pharrell started N.E.R.D. at school with two friends and they slogged and slogged until they got somewhere. - thanks for the info, Cleavage! (great name)
Why thank you. Not many people get it.
Apprenticeship is not a bad idea; she needs to get looking though, as otherwise the LEA will come after her. The plan to let her do what she wants won't really work DalePie; it is no longer legal as she has to be in education or training/apprenticeship until age 17.
Am hoping that the silence from the OP means that she and her dd are busily working out Plan B.
I bet the EWOs won't take much notice of a 17 year old out of school, tbh.
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