To think there's something not quite right with my baby

(182 Posts)
ButteryJam Fri 23-Aug-13 16:15:58

HV, GP and DH all make me feel like I'm an over worrying hypochondriac mother hmm

My LO has been very very fussy right from the very start, very alert and a little bit colicky (but definitely not colic). Now she is 13 weeks and has the following:

- episodes of screaming in pain for up to two hours, and won't settle unless I give her calpol. This occurs in the morning too. But it's all very unpredictable
- excessive (sometimes up to 50) hiccups at least twice a day
- refuses feeding (even if feed time) when in the state of crying
- tends to only feed when either asleep or very sleepy
- naps are so short, sometimes just 10-20 min, and a very very sensitive sleeper (I have to keep the house phone off and literally tiptoe around her)
- has had a sniffly nose, watery eyes almost constantly
- coughing during feeds or after
- and just generally not very happy, though does have some very happy smiley moments too

I'm a first time mum, so please tell me, is this all completely normal? HV told me earlier on in the week to stop looking for what may be wrong but just accept I am very unlucky to have this type of a baby.

(Tongue and lip tie were removed around 10 weeks so its not that).

IneedAsockamnesty Fri 23-Aug-13 16:19:12

It does sound a little bit odd but are you giving her calpol every single day? And how many doses?

You could be contributing to the problem by regular frequent paracetamol doses

Cuddlydragon Fri 23-Aug-13 16:19:42

Have you considered that it might be silent reflux? There are some helpful threads on here in parenting by others with similar experiences.

OHforDUCKScake Fri 23-Aug-13 16:19:56

Sounds like every symptom of silent reflux.

Very uncomfortable. Poor baby.

Is she bf or ff?

JustPondering Fri 23-Aug-13 16:20:28

Sounds like reflux to me, my DS2 and 3 were the same. They also always wanted to be held upright. DS2 was sick a lot but DS3 wasn't sick very much at all, just in pain.

OHforDUCKScake Fri 23-Aug-13 16:20:34

Also, it could well be tongue and/or lip tie. They are notorious for reconnecting and often need doing more than once.

Coconutty Fri 23-Aug-13 16:21:15

Babies are all different, if your GP and HV and DH all think that she is okay, then maybe she is okay?

Hope someone else with more advice will be along in a mo, how are you feeling in yourself?

buss Fri 23-Aug-13 16:21:35

Is she breast or bottle fed?
my ds2 was very windy. I used to use disposable bottles as they didn't give him wind. I also carried him about in a sling a lot as that helped him to bring his wind up.

Cuddlydragon Fri 23-Aug-13 16:22:13

Sorry cut off before finishing. Some health professionals are not well educated about it. We had weeks of misery til a new Hv mentioned it to us and its now under control with no symptoms but we had to battle to get to the right consultant. Good luck.

ButteryJam Fri 23-Aug-13 16:22:56

She is BF. I have also cut dairy since two weeks but can't see a difference.

I only give calpol when I have completely exhausted every other avenue, and this usually ends up after at least an hour of crying/consoling hmm

ButteryJam Fri 23-Aug-13 16:24:15

Coconutty, I am fine, thanks. Though it is getting harder as I really thought she would settle by 3 months.

mrslyman Fri 23-Aug-13 16:24:26

I'm no expert but DS2 used to cough loads after feeds and he was diagnosed with silent reflux. www.silentinfantreflux.com/silent-infant-reflux/

This link outlines the symptoms, does this sound like your baby?

JacqueslePeacock Fri 23-Aug-13 16:24:31

Silent reflux? Could be allergy related... Have you thought about possible cows' milk protein intolerance? Is she breast or bottle fed?

JacqueslePeacock Fri 23-Aug-13 16:25:21

Oh cross posts, sorry! My baby was allergic to both dairy and soy (the proteins are similar and it's quite common). Could be worth a try. It transformed my unhappy DS in 48 hours.

dreamingofsun Fri 23-Aug-13 16:25:28

if both the HV and GP are agreeing that baby is OK then i would think they are correct. if it was only one of them i would suggest getting a second opinion to put your mind at rest.

has she got wind? are you winding her properly after feeding? Do babies have a proper feed time now - i used to just feed mine when they cried - and with the 3rd one when i had five mins free.

do you think the feeding is making the baby sleepy? this is pretty usual - i used to feed mine to get them to sleep.

i thought that babies didn't smile properly for a while.

is there somewhere you can meet other new mums? chat over whats happening, make friends, find you are not alone. you sound a bit isolated? ask your health visitor about coffee mornings?

JacqueslePeacock Fri 23-Aug-13 16:25:57

Also, are you sure you're cutting out all hidden dairy? It's in bloody everything.

LynetteScavo Fri 23-Aug-13 16:26:46

just accept I am very unlucky to have this type of a baby.

WTF?

Your baby deserves better than that. You sound like a great mum, you really wants to get to the bottom of what is bothering your DD.

Sorry, I personally don't know what to suggest, but it does sound like something's not right. Keep plugging away until you get an answer.

MagicHouse Fri 23-Aug-13 16:27:27

You are describing my dd when she was little, almost exactly. I had hv's etc telling me it was "normal". She had "silent reflux", which is basically acid reflux. (The silent bit means they are not sick with it - so it's often not diagnosed, or else described as "normal" colic) Symptoms include hiccups, coughing, refusing feeds (because they learn feeding is associated with pain), short naps (as the reflux pain wakes them).

My doctor diagnosed reflux when my dd was about 3 months. (By which time I was a complete wreck - I had loads of people by that point telling me it was normal/ leave her to cry.... as well as lots saying it didn't seem right. I was getting virtually no sleep.

She had infant gaviscon (needs to be prescribed). You can add to a bottle if bottle fed, or feed with a syringe after a breastfeed. The first night she had it, she slept for FIVE HOURS!!!!!!! Unheard of - by that stage she was sleeping in less than hour chunks at night, and about 30 mins max during the day! She also needed ranitidine in the end - you have to work hard to get the dosage right of all the reflux meds. She was never a great sleeper to be honest. She's 7 now though, and no problems.

I would go back to your doctor armed with some info about silent reflux and ask to try infant gaviscon.

meddie Fri 23-Aug-13 16:27:47

Gp's will just look at the overall picture. Is she gaining weight?

Do the episodes of screaming in pain come in waves. so during those two hours she settles briefly then screams then it seems to ease for short periods? then screams again?

That could be either colic or reflux. but with the coughing I would think more likely reflux.

Bonsoir Fri 23-Aug-13 16:28:14

You must insist on a referral to a consultant pediatrician. You can pay for this if you want to speed things up.

Forgossake Fri 23-Aug-13 16:28:14

I have 4 Dc's and this all sounds fairly common for a baby of this age. Some babies are easier than others but lots go through a stage like this and it really does pass.

Have you tried much for colic and reflux problems? There are some really good products available and some great tips online to help you through this stage. It can be relentless though. I do feel for you but you are really not alone. Have some flowers and go easy on yourself.

ButteryJam Fri 23-Aug-13 16:28:33

mrslyman, thanks for the link! She has some of those symptoms but not all. I feel embarrassed to take her to the GP again ...

Oh why oh why do they make you feel like you are paranoid or have PND!

stargirl1701 Fri 23-Aug-13 16:29:09

DD was exactly the same. It was silent reflux. Until we got the meds sorted, the paediatrician said we could have 2 full nights of Calpol - correct dose given every 4 hours for 12 hours. This did enable us to get some sleep.

You need to video an episode on your phone and show it to the GP. It may take perseverance though. I saw 6 different GPs in 8 days in order to get a paediatric referral.

Hang in there. Reflux is hell for everyone. Get the meds sorted. Try Gaviscon (it won't work) for a week, go back and ask for Ranitidine (it may work but bear in mind there are 3 dosing levels), then you can discuss omperazole.

Do you have a sling? A sleeping wedge? Have you tried co-sleeping?

muchadoaboutsomething Fri 23-Aug-13 16:29:48

I also think it sounds like silent reflux. It sounds just like my ds. Good luck with getting more answers and help.

ButteryJam Fri 23-Aug-13 16:31:52

She is gaining weight, and yes I have completely cut dairy.

She will only go quiet momentarily in the crying episodes if she is distracted (some times ill play a short video clip with a song etc)

Delayingtactic Fri 23-Aug-13 16:31:58

Request a different GP. I must I too read your OP and immediately thought silent reflux.

meddie Fri 23-Aug-13 16:32:27

Theres a few things you can try.
Feed her upright
Try and keep her upright for 20 to 30 mins after a feed (ie in a bouncy chair). put a pillow under the mattress in her bed (Not on top)
Wind her frequently during feeds
Try smaller more frequent feeds

I,m not sure whether they still sell thickeners over the counter anymore. Carobel and Thick and easy are two that spring to mind

Weissbier Fri 23-Aug-13 16:32:28

Difficult to know without seeing her but if your GP's given her a clean bill of health then I would probably agree with the HV. The screaming could be overtiredness, the hiccups -50 doesn't sound worrying to me, I have never counted those of my DDs...I would notice if it had been going on for an hour or something. Runny nose etc - most small children are covered in bodily fluids of one sort or another - could have a sniffle, if GP isn't worried then I wouldn't be either.

Is she bf? Could her formula be bothering her, or even something you're eating? Sometimes stuff like you not eating dairy can help with things like these? Have they done any allergy tests?

mrslyman Fri 23-Aug-13 16:32:31

I was really lucky in that when I took DS to the GP for his cough the GP realised it was silent reflux but I reading around an listening to friends I think a lot of parents are fobbed off and told they have fussy babies.

Can you see a different GP at your practises and go in suggesting silent reflux as they make take you more seriously.

DS was prescribed rinitadine which is the easiest thing for BF babies ad most other meds need to be mixed with formula.

Good luck

Weissbier Fri 23-Aug-13 16:33:29

Crossposted - forgot about silent reflux, good point

ButteryJam Fri 23-Aug-13 16:33:33

Stargirl, yes I am co-sleeping and have tried a sling, but she doesn't always like it. Holding her up in the air calms her too sometimes.

FixItUpChappie Fri 23-Aug-13 16:35:50

What an unhelpful thing for a HV to say hmm

Its your job to question when you are concerned OP - if she's fine, she's fine but you keep on asking whatever questions you want.

I found both of mine particularly fussy around 3-4 months. Do you have a baby carrier or sling? That can really help keep them upright after feeds if it is reflux issues.

Have you tried white noise during naps? A fan in the room or a little white noise machine has worked wonders with both of mine.

Do you have a humidifier? That can help if they are stuffy but be sure to keep the filter clean.

Do you think your catching her early hunger cues?....waiting too long can make a feed very difficult because they are so upset. Watch cues and the clock combined so you know when a feed should be coming up. They eat well when sleepy because they are so relaxed.

Just some random thoughts off the top of my head anyway.

ButteryJam Fri 23-Aug-13 16:36:14

Meddie, thanks for those suggestions, but she refuses to feed upright as she wants to be fed when sleepy (well in all honesty I quickly offer it when she stirs from sleep and she accepts). I can't wake her up because then it may be more crying and pain for her ...

hettienne Fri 23-Aug-13 16:36:59

I would see another GP and ask to try gaviscon, just to see if it helps.

It doesn't sound normal to me.

FixItUpChappie Fri 23-Aug-13 16:36:59

sorry cross posted with you OP

Cuddlydragon Fri 23-Aug-13 16:37:01

OP in terms of going back to your GP, don't be embarrassed. Can you try another in the practice and ask specifically about reflux, 3 GPs and 2 HV kept telling me I was an over anxious mum and that babies cried. In desperation I went to a well baby clinic at another practice and a HV with silent reflux kids herself took one look and sent us straight to our local children's hospital. We were admitted that day for a few days and silent reflux was diagnosed. Treatment hasn't been straightforward but it revolutionised our lives. Weight gain or lack thereof is not a diagnosis tool as some reflux babies feed for comfort and gain weight perfectly well. Also health professionals should treat your concerns as sufficient cause for investigations.

catsdogsandbabies Fri 23-Aug-13 16:37:03

Reflux reflux reflux. Push for referral. Don't take no for answer

ButteryJam Fri 23-Aug-13 16:37:05

Thanks everyone for your support and suggestions! smile

mrslyman Fri 23-Aug-13 16:38:11

DS didn't have all the symptoms either

cafecito Fri 23-Aug-13 16:38:20

My guess silent reflux, go back to a different GP in the practice. Please try not to give calpol

ButtercupsAreFlowers Fri 23-Aug-13 16:39:22

Sounds like silent reflux to me. Trust your instincts - GPs and HVs can be wrong. I'd insist on a referral to a paediatrician. My baby DD2 had horrible reflux that wasn't diagnosed soon enough, due to general faffing about by primary care professionals. It was only when we saw a gastroenterologist that the problem even began to be solved. Don't be fobbed off!

VenusRising Fri 23-Aug-13 16:39:32

Buttery jam, please stop giving your child carpool. You are drugging her up, and paracetamol can lead to her developing asthma.

You need to rethink what you are doing, you know, until you have a babe yourself you don't realise that all new borns wail and stay awake, no matter what the books say. I remember reading that newborns sleep 18 hours a day, and calculating that my DD was awake for 18 hours a day.

It's so tough if they wail and don't sleep, but that's babies for you! All babies wail and don't sleep, or just catch a few naps here and there- not enough for you to get some restorative sleep mind, so you must enlist help and get someone to mind her while you get six hours of sleep solid, at least.

Also investigate silent reflux, and keep her upright as much as possible, that means holding her, not just giving her calpol and putting her down.

flatmum Fri 23-Aug-13 16:40:06

my ds3 was very similar to this, he had tongue tie and silent reflux and it later turned out he is lactose intolerant and I had to stop bf him earlier. get her seem by a paed who will prob put her on gaviscon and ranatidine if it is silent reflux, which it sounds like to me. this helped quite a bit for us and also at about 6m you will probably notice a huge improvement once she is sitting up and starting to eat solids. hang in there, it will get better.

puddock Fri 23-Aug-13 16:40:45

Another one who thinks it sounds like silent reflux. My first baby had this and it took weeks and weeks and more than 1 patronising HCP saying there was nothing wrong and "babies cry you know" and "was I not coping" - or urging me to stop trying to BF - before a locum referral took us to a paed who actually knew what he was talking about, who watched him feeding for 30 seconds and said "he's obviously got reflux", prescribed ranitidine and - well, it all got sorted out. . I still feel angry (5 years on) about those weeks of my concerns being dismissed and my baby being in pain that could have been dealt with...

Don't be embarrassed to go back to the GP and ask for a referral to a paediatrician if s/he won't take you seriously.

Also I wanted to say that there may well be light at the end of the tunnel, it often (though unfortunately not always) improves quite a lot around 4-5 months with sitting up and pyloric sphincter development.

flatmum Fri 23-Aug-13 16:41:37

and lay off the calpol I'd say too ...

KristinaM Fri 23-Aug-13 16:41:46

I'm not a doctor but I don't think that frequent hiccups, watery eyes and nose and coughing aftre feeds are normal . I think you shoudl go back to your GP and if they are not helpful, ask for a referral.

Also I don't understand why, when a parent gives a specific cogent list of problems they child has, the first reaction of some people is to dismiss their concerns and imply that she must have PND.

meddie Fri 23-Aug-13 16:45:42

I think your just going to have to be assertive with your GP. Its classic reflux symptoms. Granted a lot of babies do grow out of it once they start solids. But its bloody miserable until then.
gaviscon or ranitidine should hep a great deal. Also feed thickeners if they are still available (Carobel is made from carob beans), you can still use these if breastfeeding but they are a bit of a faff as you have to mix it to a paste and spoon feed it prior to her BF.
If you do feel she needs pain relief, stick to a paracetamol based one and not an inbuprofen one (this can upset the tummy).

WilsonFrickett Fri 23-Aug-13 16:46:15

It's a bank holiday so you won't get an appointment for a few days, so I what I would do is keep a diary between now and your appointment.

Then before you go into the appointment you can say very clearly this happens every day after I feed her, etc etc.

I also (can't believe I'm typing this in 2013) would take your DP with you to the docs. I know, it's shit, but ime doctors are more receptive when it's a man saying things. (I would normally say fuck that shit, but it's more important you get the help you need right now.)

HV's don't know everything and some GPs are just not very clued up on babies. If you are in a baby group in your town can you ask around? There's one doc in my practice who is known to be very good and pead-focussed iyswim so it's always worth getting and appt with her.

ButteryJam Fri 23-Aug-13 16:46:58

VenusRising, I don't just give her calpol (I have in total only given it 3 times). If she is screaming in pain for more than an hour and sometimes up to two hours and not settling at all (me of course holding her through all this time and trying every single thing I can think of), then I felt I had no choice except to give it, especially when everyone else is saying there is nothing wrong. There's only so much pain you can see your LO go through.

Deliaskis Fri 23-Aug-13 16:48:11

Another vote for silent reflux.

DD had this and was very similar, look out too for kind of separated/curdled milk in spit/vomit (although not likely to be very sick if silent reflux, hence the silent), tongue 'poking', sometimes a bit of 'headbanging' when in pain.

Things that helped were eventually medication, sleeping a bit propped up, smaller feeds (and so more often).

Push push push at doctors, DD was in pain for most of her first 2-3 months until we got her onto medication and got the dose right.

D

pianodoodle Fri 23-Aug-13 16:48:32

My friend's baby was the same she found wearing her in a sling/carrier around the house helped a lot.

She was given something to put in with her formula some kind of drops - and it worked straight away. I bf too so not sure how you incorporate medicine into feeds - maybe a dropper?

Anyway I agree with everyone who says go back to the doctor!

Also I'd be really peeved at the HV saying you were "unlucky" what a load of old bollocks!

MisselthwaiteManor Fri 23-Aug-13 16:49:28

Yes, it sounds like reflux! I had this with my baby and I can't even count how many doctors said as log as she's gaining weight she's fine. When they're in pain and crying they're clearly not fine! It was such a battle to get any help. In the end I took her to the walk-in which is attached to the hospital and they sent us to the paed ward where she was diagnosed and given ranitidine which has changed her. Try and get a paed referral or do as I did and just go to the hospital, I found the paed doctor a million times more helpful than the GPs.

meddie Fri 23-Aug-13 16:49:41

Butteryjam. if your baby needs pain relief then give it to her. please dont feel guilty about that. Its been used extensively in children for many years and the odd dose is not a problem. much better that she is comfy and pain free than suffering.

pianodoodle Fri 23-Aug-13 16:50:44

I hate the way first time mum's can get patronised or dismissed as being hypochondriacs you're not stupid and you know your baby well enough to decide when all isn't right!

FixItUpChappie Fri 23-Aug-13 16:50:50

I know there is no scientific evidence that it works but I felt that gripe water did help DS1. Worth a try anyhow.

pianodoodle Fri 23-Aug-13 16:51:19

Mums even. Stupid phone edits in apostrophes for me.

MisselthwaiteManor Fri 23-Aug-13 16:51:35

I suggested reflux and ranitidine to my GP before going to the walk in and he read me a list of side affects froma
book, which include impotence. I wanted to hit him on the head with it. GPs can be great but some don't seem to
know what to do with babies.

SoulTrain Fri 23-Aug-13 16:54:20

A health visitor said to me practically the same thing when DS was 12 weeks and miserable allllll the time. She said "you need to make your peace with the fact you've had a miserable baby."

He had reflux.

You don't live on the south coast do you?!

ChippingInHopHopHop Fri 23-Aug-13 16:55:03

I'm sorry you and DD are going through this sad

Your HV, along with many others, needs to find herself another job.

If it were me, the first thing I would do would be to make an appointment with a cranial osteopath specialising in babies. They can work wonders for many different things.

If this doesn't work, I'd make a private Paed. apt. or go to a different GP. But they are GP's not Paed's and many of them aren't that great with babies.

HumphreyCobbler Fri 23-Aug-13 16:57:54

VenusRising - drugging her up? Honestly, I think that is uncalled for. It also sounds as if the OP spends her whole life holding her child up or otherwise trying to make her child feel better.

Do hope you get some effective help soon ButteryJam.

monkeymamma Fri 23-Aug-13 17:00:36

Hey OP, I just wanted to say you are doing a brilliant job and definitely keep going with GP and HV until you get some help. Trust your instincts but also please try not to worry, enjoy your baby and realise what a super job you're doing.

My Ds had a lot of similar symptoms at that age and I too had the feeling things weren't quite right. At 4mo he started getting other symptoms too and I couldn't get much help with them (referral to paed took 6weeks and I was miserable with worry). In the meantime a quite junior doc suggested cutting out dairy. In the end I cut out dairy, soya, beef and egg, and his symptoms disappeared. I had to be pretty pushy but finally got a referral to a dietician who helped us in re-introducing these foods into DS's diet (well, introducing iyswim, he'd had them via my milk but by the time we introduced these foods he was eating solids). He now eats all these foods no problems, save egg which we're in the process of introducing. He's 19mo now.

Just to say, and I have no idea at all whether your baby has similar probs or something quite different, but if you have cut dairy it will take longer than 2 weeks to clear your system. Also, you should definitely insist you and baby need to see a dietician because you shouldn't be cutting out any major food groups without dietetic support. Especially when bfeeding, you will get super run down!

Whatever happens you still have a gorgeous baby and you are a gorgeous mummy too, hopefully you can get some help which will make feeding and life generally a bit easier.

Also just to say it all gets easier when they're able to understand more and aren't so tiny (I'm loving the toddler stage, so much easier!)

X

CrazyOldCatLady Fri 23-Aug-13 17:02:18

It does sound very like silent reflux. I had two refluxers so I know how hard it is!

If I were you I'd go back to the GP and insist on a referral to a paed. You need a specialist to deal correctly with extreme reflux, I've never met a GP who had a clue about it.

If you want to try some things yourself, there are options. Infant Gaviscon is available over the counter. It thickens the stomach contents and makes them less likely to come back up. Cow and Gate Carobel is similar product (which we actually found far more effective). If you try one of those and it works, you've got your answer, and your treatment! (though on the other hand, if they don't work, that doesn't rule out reflux, it just means you might need something on prescription, or a special formula).

Whatever you do, don't accept that you just have a grumpy baby. If she's crying it's for a reason and she deserves help!

fishandmonkey Fri 23-Aug-13 17:02:24

sorry if this has been covered - have only been able to skim read the thread.
i know you said you gave up dairy. have you completely given up dairy? by that i mean anything with milk protein in (most bread for instance has whey powder in). my dd had similar symptoms and i thought i'd given up dairy but i was still having hidden dairy. after 2 weeks with absolutely no dairy, soya, goats milk, i had a new baby.
i was also told to just accept i had a fussy baby but trust your instincts. you are the mum. you know. good luck to you both.

LostInWales Fri 23-Aug-13 17:12:51

Not a lot to add apart from monkeymamma speaks a lot of sense and if you feel your child is in pain the give her the appropriate dose of calpol.

Hang in there you are going a great job, I wish I had MN 11 years ago because my DS2 was just like yours and the only help I had from my health visitor was the useful comment that if I would only take anti depressants he would improve hmm. I paid for a private paediatrician that specialised in the digestive system and within a month we were sorted with a mix of meds and no dairy/soya. He's a lovely, sporty and bright 11 year old now which I would never have believed possible when he cried for approximately 9 months without pausing for breath!

Just keep repeating to yourself the MN mantra 'this too shall pass', you are doing brilliantly.

hettienne Fri 23-Aug-13 17:19:08

Cranial osteopaths are, um... magic. I'd rather go with medicine personally!

LiegeAndLief Fri 23-Aug-13 17:24:25

Another vote for silent reflux from someone whose baby had it. Ds was on domperidone, ranitidine and gaviscon. Lots of coughing and snuffling and grunting in his sleep, nev slept well, was happiest upright in sling or lying on someone's chest. Fortunately he was diagnosed in SCBU so we never had to battle with the GP.

Oh, and he put on weight at a phenomenal weight despite all that! I think often hvs or gps just look at the growth chart and if that's ok they don't care.

IneedAsockamnesty Fri 23-Aug-13 17:24:28

It did sound like the calpol was a very regular thing in the op. not just 3 times in 13 weeks.

5amisnotmorning Fri 23-Aug-13 17:32:41

Trust your instincts.

We ended up going privately to a paediatrician at great ormond street who told us that DD had classic symptoms of food intolerances and to cut out dairy and soya.

He said that food intolerance presents as runny, greeny or yellow poo and often sleep is most interrupted in the early hours of the morning as that is when the bowel is most active.

It sounds like all the symptoms of reflux from my experience so please don't let them fob you off and ignore the porters who have clearly never had a child with reflux and quite honestly can just have no idea!

JassyRadlett Fri 23-Aug-13 17:38:07

Another saying this sounds like silent reflux. In DS it manifested in him screaming in pain exactly 7 minutes into every feed. Which meant that he was starving again within two hours, repeat horrible process.

But because he was gaining weight ok, GP and HVs didn't want to know. Don't rely on them being right just because they're saying the same thing.

Cutting dairy made no difference for DS, but def worth a try.

Good luck! You sound like you're doing an amazing job for your baby.

SHarri13 Fri 23-Aug-13 17:42:20

My youngest was the same and in his case we think it is/ was dairy. I also suspect soya too ( 50% of babies who are sensitive to dairy are the sane with soya). We had some success with cutting absolutely all dairy out inc hidden/ baked dairy.

I found getting a HCP to listen was a nightmare and by the time one did my husband had private health insurance through work so it was sorted very quickly.

I think a GP appointment with a different GP might be a good start if at all possible?

CruCru Fri 23-Aug-13 18:11:01

OP, I have the number for a private paediatrician in north London recommended a little while ago by friends. Please PM me if you would like it.

changeforthebetter Fri 23-Aug-13 18:15:29

Oh OP that sounds tough hmm

I firmly believe mothers know their babies a lot better than anyone else and deserve to be listened to and taken seriously. You carried her, gave birth to and feed her with your own body - you are the expert here (and if you FF you'd still be the expert)

No experience of reflux but hope you are able to get this sorted for you and DD's sake.

Fakebook Fri 23-Aug-13 18:16:09

Another vote for silent reflux here. DS had very similar symptoms and a couple of doses of infant gaviscon sorted him out. You're the baby's mother and your instincts are always right. Go to the doctor again and tell her/him what you think the problem is and to try gaviscon or something similar to just try. It won't do her any harm to try.

You have to sometimes be really forthright to get treated on the NHS.

Acepuppets Fri 23-Aug-13 18:20:41

I have no idea about the cause of the symptoms but I do know that sometimes a mother's instinct can pick things up before anyone else can. I would keep trying to find out the cause until the gut feeling is settled.

Best wishes

thebody Fri 23-Aug-13 18:23:34

agree silent reflux and can I add your HV is a disgrace.

could your dh or partner take your dd to the GP with you? demand a referral as its your complete right.

sad to say but some GPs tend to ignore or patronise mums but not dads. 😡

you sound a great mom. go for it.

flatmum Fri 23-Aug-13 18:38:21

grrr makes me so angry the HVs and GPs are so useless with this. as I said earlier my ds3 was like your dd and is now on a dairy free diet (age 3). the first 6 months were really hard until we got him diagnosed and on the ranatidine which helped a fair bit. he was my third! you are doing brilliantly you just need to keep on at them to refer you to a paed. my ds eventually started losing lots of weight and dropping off the bottom of the charts (could never finish a feed) and I still couldn't get them to do anything. they were talking about "maybe" referring him for "failure to thrive" until one weekend when he was about 5 and a half months it all came to a head. he was in so much pain and screamed for hours we took him to the out of hours clinic at the hospital. they took one look at him (skin and bones) and sent us through to children's a&e. There we were really lucky as the doctor on duty was still training and was going to specialise in paediatrics. she took one look at him and the symptoms and said "this baby has got silent reflex" and prescribed gaviscon. we saw the paed on the Monday who gave him ranatidine and it all got rapidly better from there. He also persuaded me to stop trying to bf and put him on dairy free formula.

I think it was all really caused by his underlying dairy intolerance. but it still annoys me now all those weeks of pain and upset when noone helped us. I feel bad that he was in pain all that time, but he is the happiest toddler now, I promise you.

monicalewinski Fri 23-Aug-13 18:42:59

Agree with just about everyone else - reflux, reflux, reflux! Both my boys had it and were exactly like your original post. Mine were prescribed ranitidine and also powder gaviscon which we put in their bottles (to make the feed heavier).

With my eldest all the doctors etc I saw said colic / just an unsettled baby, then one hv mentioned reflux which I'd never heard of; with my youngest I went to the doctor and told him what I thought it was (ready for another battle) and he agreed straight away.

Go back to the doctor, film your baby when at its worst and show it to the doctor. Good luck and keep going, it does get better honestly!

loklak Fri 23-Aug-13 19:02:04

It really sounds like silent reflux. My DS had one and my paediatrician told me the coughing thing and sniffly nose were symptoms.
Does she also sound like she's constantly clearing her throat?
Does she sleep better when she is upright (like in a sling for example?)
Does she often stick her tongue out?
Is she sometimes "chewing" her tongue?

I know what you feel like, it was such a relief when I finally got the right medecine...

ButteryJam Fri 23-Aug-13 19:04:40

Thanks so much everyone!

I just spoke to my GP, who after explaining everything said it sounded like colic! She then went onto say it will settle by 3 months, I then interjected and corrected her saying she is already 3 months. Anyhow she has agreed to do a referral but refused to prescribe gaviscon. I'm going to try another GP on Tuesday.

I do have some infant gaviscon sachets but I'm slightly reluctant to try them without being prescribed and a little worried she may get constipated. Shall I try them or wait till Tuesday?

Pobblewhohasnotoes Fri 23-Aug-13 19:04:58

Sounds like reflux to me too. My DS has reflux and is on ranitidine. Took ages to get it as some GP's will just fob you off with 'oh but they'll grow out of it' Yes, at a year old they might! DS is 18 months..

ButteryJam Fri 23-Aug-13 19:05:29

Infant gaviscon sachets are from a friend - probably got two.

ButteryJam Fri 23-Aug-13 19:08:42

loklak, she definitely sleeps better upright, in fact when she is unsettled she will scream and scream if I put her in any other position.

With the tongue, she had recently been sticking it out quite a bit, but that might be because she had her tongue tie released pretty recently.

JacqueslePeacock Fri 23-Aug-13 19:11:21

If you are cutting out dairy already, do give cutting out soy a try as well for a few days (not too hard really - although you have to read labels quite carefully). I had replaced all my cows' milk with soy milk, but the proteins are quite similar, so it was making poor DS worse and worse. After two days of cutting out both, he was like a new baby.

MisselthwaiteManor Fri 23-Aug-13 19:12:35

Gaviscon didn't help us, it's purpose is to thicken the milk in the stomach to help it stay down but it didn't take away the pain of the acid, it's not like adult gaviscon. If your baby isn't being sick with the reflux then I would just wait until you see the GP

MisselthwaiteManor Fri 23-Aug-13 19:14:45

Ranitidine is a life changer, don't leave the room until they prescribe it! After one day on it I was able to lay DD on her back and she was happy. We were sleeping sitting up holding her until that point.

LillyofWinchester Fri 23-Aug-13 19:17:03

Just to add, if you are trying to eliminate dairy you may need to wait another week or so to see a difference, also eliminate soya while you're at it as often the two are linked. And make sure you check the ingredients list as like another poster said, it's in everything.

Here's a link...

kellymom.com/health/baby-health/food-sensitivity/

Trust your instincts, I'm sorry you're not getting more support from your GP, I hope you get to the bottom of it soon.

marriedinwhiteisback Fri 23-Aug-13 19:20:10

Well done. You have followed your instincts and advice on this thread. HV and GP, in spite of referral don't sound great. Not sure I's give the gaviscon from a friend (dose/weight/how dd will cope when it runs out). Did you ask how long the referral will take?

You could always pop to a and e over the weekend and express your concerns explaining it's a bank holiday and you can't get back to year GP over the referral until Tuesday and you can't bear to see your dd in pain any longer. You never know they might even call down a paed who may well get you into the clinic sooner and porescribe in the meantime.

You sound like a lovely mummy. Just remember that the early days are a tiny part of motherhood ad your dd won't remember them. She's going to remember her favourite dinner, first day at school, trips to the park, becoming a brownie - all stuff you will play a big part in and be loved and remembered for.

Good luck xxx

thebody Fri 23-Aug-13 19:29:56

ah lovely Marriedinwhiteisback.

good luck op.

StrawberryMojito Fri 23-Aug-13 19:30:29

Ok, I'm going to go against the majority...

I could have written your post when my DS was you age, I took him to the doctor numerous times, convinced his crying (screaming), hiccuping, refusing to settle, awful sleep etc were symptomatic of something serious. Some checks were done but nothing diagnosed and guess what, he grew out of it.

He still actually is quite hiccup-prone but mainly when he's laughed too much. Whilst, I think his digestive system matured a bit and helped matters, I think he was just a difficult baby...some are, fact.

I found he became a much better sleeper when I was able to put him on his front (when he could roll freely) and he slept with us (not our choice) until he was 9 months old. He is can still be 'difficult' but is robustly healthy and equally wonderful. He is 22 months now.

I'm not a doctor so I'm not saying your baby definitely hasn't got any issues but maybe trust the GP, hv and your DH.

marriedinwhiteisback Fri 23-Aug-13 19:39:11

Maybe strawberry*. But you had year baby checked out. Hopefully the OP's baby will be checked out and specialist paeds will tell her there's no problem but as long as there might be a problem the OP needs to get it checked out for her dd's sake.

marriedinwhiteisback Fri 23-Aug-13 19:42:42

And FWIW my did was a difficult, miserable, fractious baby who didn't sleep. But and this is a big but: she never coughed, she never seemed in pain, she never screamed in a distressed way (mor a needy way), etc. She was a difficult baby (I had a child already to compare with) but I never ever thought she was physically suffering.

heather1 Fri 23-Aug-13 19:53:06

Buttery you sound like a lovely mum who loves her baby very much. It's hard when health professionals who are" experts" dispute what you know but you know your child better than anyone in the world and are their advocate.
Everyone, even my mum, said your ds is fine but I knew something wasn't right and he was diagnosed w reflux at his 8 month check. Definitely try another Gp. Often if you baby is thriving and gaining weight the doctors and hv aren't too worried but then they aren't responsible for a little person who is in discomfort.

StrawberryMojito Fri 23-Aug-13 20:00:09

Married, I offered my opinion because my DS did have the same symptoms as the OPs baby.

Of course she should get her baby checked out if she wants, I'm just a non-medically trained stranger on the Internet.

stopthinkingsomuch Fri 23-Aug-13 20:00:13

Mum of three here and silent relfluxers. We didn't need meds but had to follow certain things with each baby. Loose clothing, no dairy in my diet, raised bed/cot. No jigging when winding, car seats and certain pushchairs didn't help so had to be careful. The big one that helped was raising up the sleeping area. Hope you find some help for your bubba and congrats.

I'm sticking with the reflux theory. My Dt1, who is one of three children so I'm not a hysterical first time mother, has finally been diagnosed with reflux, soya, dairy and egg intolerance at 15 months. Yes, you read that right. 15 months. Atypical symptoms which included frequent feeding, very, very poor sleep, vomiting but latterly only associated with coughing, crying or mealtimes... He was on gaviscon at two weeks old, it didn't help, our attention was then focused on Dt2 who also had reflux and cows milk protein intolerance and very miserable (both bf babies). Suddenly, at 11 months, we realised Dt2 had settled, was sleeping etc, Dt1 was exactly the same.

I was fobbed off for months by bf support workers and hv telling me it was colic. I don't believe in colic, I really don't. Only when Dt2 got cows milk at 6 months did we realise as he was so much worse- yet he never had diarrhoea he got constipated. Both have always banged weight on no problem. Now I believe Dt1's hellish sleep is partly as we are still figuring out if he has other intolerances, and partly habit as he's 16.5 months now. He literally has never slept more than 2 hours solidly until this month. that is not normal?!

I think there's something else to it and am glad you have a paeds referral. I'm hoping others stories show they can be so different, and not fitting all the symptoms. We didn't realize for months having one refluxy, intolerant twin fgs!

Keep on trucking, it will improve.

hettienne Fri 23-Aug-13 20:02:14

Babies with reflux probably will grow out of it, but that doesn't mean it isn't painful and distressing for them in the mean time! With an older child or adult we wouldn't expect them to put up with something painful just because it isn't dangerous and it might only last a few months.

Oh, but my 16.5 month old is now on maximum doses of ranitidine, domperidone, dairy, soya and egg free diet, and he's a different child.

Don't know if this has been said but it runny nose can be a sign of dairy / wheat intolerance

Thepursuitofhappiness Fri 23-Aug-13 20:22:49

Sounds like reflux!

I expect gaviscon won't help, that's generally to keep milk down not for pain. You should ask for ranitidine to be prescribed for pain (Zantac). It is very weight sensitive so may need to play around with the dose (gp would prob try the minimum dose but there is a large range). Ranitidine can be prescribed by a gp while the paediatrician appointment comes through (which can take weeks....) so don't let them fob you off.

Your GP sounds crap.

Took me four GP appointments with different GPs to get them to take me seriously. (ds had silent reflux)

Thepursuitofhappiness Fri 23-Aug-13 20:25:21

Oh and if GP on Tuesday fobs you off I'd try a walk in centre, why should your baby wait a month for a paediatrician referral to be pain free. Good luck.

marriedinwhiteisback Fri 23-Aug-13 20:27:54

Wasn't meant as a criticism strawberry* apols if it came across like that. I know what a difficult baby's like - fortunately mine was our second.

Cuddlydragon Fri 23-Aug-13 20:36:03

In going to agree with the suggestion above. Take the baby to A & E over weekend. Better yet if you live close to a children's hospital. Your GP seems very unsympathetic ( at best). I cannot understand why people let babies suffer this. I really don't. Good luck OP.

One thing I did was write out all the symptoms and when the GP tried to fob me off, I'd ask them to explain.

trixymalixy Fri 23-Aug-13 20:59:40

It makes me so angry that so many GPs seem to just fob off new mums.

My DS had very similar symptoms and all the GP would diagnose was reflux. When the reflux meds were not working he said that as DS was gaining weight that all the screaming and problems feeding were "just a minor inconvenience and he'll grow out of it". Never mind the fact that I was on my knees with exhaustion because of the lack of sleep and on the edge of needing some ADs.

It turned out that DS had multiple food allergies to milk, egg, nuts, legumes and soya.

I had tried cutting out dairy and it helped a bit, but I hadn't considered other allergies.

My GP poo poohed the whole idea of DS reacting to what I was eating, he said it was impossible.

Anyway, I hope that reflux is the right diagnosis for you and you get prescribed something that helps. If it doesn't it may be worth keeping a food diary. If you are cutting out any food try and see a dietician to make sure you are getting enough nutrients.

raisah Fri 23-Aug-13 21:02:26

My son had these symptoms & was treated with infant gaviscon & ranitidine. Symptoms disappeared overnight once the meds kucked in. After her feed keep her sat up in her bouncy chair to stop the acid from coming up her food pipe. Massage her tummy to help her wind regularly.

BoSho Fri 23-Aug-13 22:00:55

Sorry, haven't read the whole thread, but I think my baby also has silent reflux with exactly the symptoms you describe and we gave her Nutrilon 'AR' on the recommendation of a pediatrician. It's like wallpaper paste to thicken the milk and you just give it on a spoon before each feed. It worked immediately for us - my baby smiles all the time now - and meant we didn't have to use medication like gaviscon. Poor baby. Hope you find something that works.

Fakebook Fri 23-Aug-13 22:01:46

Can I also add, that my DS couldn't stomach my milk when I drank orange juice. It made the reflux worse, so keep a look out for which foods you eat cause more distress.

BoSho Fri 23-Aug-13 22:04:23

Meant to say - you can buy Nutrilon 'AR' from the pharmacy - it's in the baby milk section.

BoSho Fri 23-Aug-13 22:05:24

Nutrilon = Aptamil in the UK (I live in Holland). I'll shut up now...

ProphetOfDoom Fri 23-Aug-13 22:23:31

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SpanishLady Fri 23-Aug-13 22:25:55

We can't recommend baby cranial osteopathy enough. We had a baby that didn't seem happy in himself and cried for hours every night - we are sure he had colic but seemed more then that but as a first time mum didn't know what or if I was just fussing. Then we noticed he never moved his head to his left - a friend recommended osteopathy and after one session he relaxed and slept. The osteopath said she could feel the tension in his tummy and also in his neck. We went a handful of times and she said it was enough and he felt much better and he was. We are due twins in October and will take them just to be checked over ( eg we aren't going to wait to see f they seem colicky or have reflux) - worth a try.?

SpanishLady Fri 23-Aug-13 22:29:06

By the way if you sense something is wrong then stick to your guns, I was told by 2 doctors and a Hv that my sun didn't have jaundice - ended up in A&E with shock and surprise jaundice..... Don't be fobbed off!

Bakingtins Fri 23-Aug-13 22:37:45

Don't be fobbed off. DS2 had silent reflux and as it turned out was dairy and soy intolerant. I must have worn a rut in the GPs carpet before someone finally listened to me. It didn't seem to make any difference that I had never darkened the door with DS1 and was in no way over anxious.
The support website Little Refluxers is very helpful, as is the ( stupidly titled but very good) book Colic Solved by gastro- paediatrician Dr Bryan Vartebedian.
Dairy and soya free breastfeeding and omeprazole made a big difference to us and we have all survived relatively unscathed, but I haven't forgotten how difficult it was. DS was off meds at 16m old, outgrew his allergies by 2 yrs and is unaffected and on a normal diet age 3.

MichaelaS Fri 23-Aug-13 23:37:43

Silent reflux, another vote here. My DS2 had it and was a nightmare baby, never happy and my instincts were that he was in pain. GP gave infant gaviscon which was useless. Then ranitidine which helped for a few hours then wore off. I kept going back, got referred to the hospital who said it was a dairy intolerance and I should give up, based on no history other than hearing I have asthma. Bollocks.

We paid for a private gastro consultation (about £200) who confirmed my thoughts - if it was an intolerance why would he be better in upright positions rather than supine, and why would the ranitidine have helped? He also noticed my DS2 was constipated, making his reflux worse as the top end could not empty downwards because the bottom end was full up.

One prescription of omelrazole later and we had a completely different baby. He was in it from about 6 months to 10 months ish, until his sphincter muscles at the top and bottom of his stomach grew stronger. Even now he still needs laxatives at 16 months although we are weaning him off.

In my opinion there are so few side effects to trying something like ranitidine or omelrazole that its worth a try if you can find a friendly GP or go private and get a proper history taken and have time for a longer discussion. You will know in 2 weeks if it helps or not, and if not you can rule out reflux as a cause. If it does work that confirms the suspected diagnosis.

Good luck, and it DOES get better. I felt I'd been robbed of my snuggly newborn phase and felt so angry and sad, but the time passed and he got better and now I have a very snuggly toddler instead.

Reflux.

Hiccups are a classic sign. I bet she had hiccups while you were pregnant with her too.

Sarahplane Fri 23-Aug-13 23:57:09

I think it sounds like my ds when he had reflux bur without the vomiting so could well be silent reflux. I eventually started listening to all the doctors who said it was just something we had to live with until we changed gps when ds was five months and the new gp was shocked ds wasn't being treated for his reflux. He was like a different baby once he was on the right medication. So much happier. Try seeing a different doctor and asking about silent reflux. Persevere because it's not fun for you or your dd. If an adult was suffering the same things they wouldn't be expected just to put up with it so why should a baby be expected to be constantly uncomfortable.

cumfy Sat 24-Aug-13 00:06:43

In my opinion there are so few side effects to trying something like ranitidine or omeprazole that its worth a try

I agree it sounds like reflux, but I would be extremely wary about giving PPIs, unless absolutely clinically necessary, and maybe your GP is too, hoping that the esophogal sphincters will strengthen in due course.

The basic problem with PPIs is that they suppress the acid production "chemistry" of the stomach -- sometimes permanently.

Many adult users cannot come off PPIs because the stomach reacts by producing excess acid (hypersecretion rebound).

Gaviscon is much less of a problem/risk as it is just forming a foam type barrier, not messing with the acid production process.

jumpingpillows Sat 24-Aug-13 02:44:12

silent reflux.

ranitadine

Latemates Sat 24-Aug-13 08:53:43

try visiting a chiropractor - My baby was the same but we took her to a chiropractor and it has changed everything. she's so much more content now. she had 2 appointments and then we were told he only needed to see her again if symptoms returned, he also showed us massage to do at home

hope things improve

ButteryJam Sat 24-Aug-13 10:29:19

Thank you so much everyone! smile I have read all the comments and will go back to another GP and try and chase up the appointment with the peadtrician.

Yes, I baby had these hiccups when pregnant too, up to about 50-75! Even when she was in hospital she had them in those frequency, and I raised the alarm to them and to GPs, HV, midwives etc and all said it was completely normal! I can't for the life of me understand how having that amount of hiccups can be normal!

I have tried osteopathy and still got a few more appointments left, but I'm not sure it is helping but I will continue, just so that can be ruled out.

In terms of chiropractor, is that the same as osteopath?

Someone mentioned that orange juice made it worse, and looking back, I very rarely have orange juice, and on the three occasions where I had to give calpol, the day before that I had orange juice. I think I'm going to completely avoid citrus fruits for now.

ButteryJam Sat 24-Aug-13 10:30:39

Latemates, may I DM you to ask which chiropractor you took your baby too?

ButteryJam Sat 24-Aug-13 10:32:40

cumfy, thanks, I have been worried about that too, and of course I'm not keen on giving medication. But at the same time, if after doing everything I can, she is still in pain, it'd be unfair of me to let her suffer, as I would never put my ownself through it.

PurpleRayne Sat 24-Aug-13 10:37:18

Lactose intolerance? Breast milk contains lactose (nothing to do with your own dairy intake) My daughter had to stop breast feeding her fourth baby due to this, never had an issue before.

Pobblewhohasnotoes Sat 24-Aug-13 10:57:18

ButteryJam, no one wants their baby to be on medication but if it's the choice between a miserable or happy baby I know which one I'd take! My DS has been on ranitidine since he was about five months old, with a brief stint on omeprazole. It really does work and he's happy. He used to projectile vomit his milk and scream. He also has a dairy allergy.

I'm a children's nurse too and we have lots and lots of children on anti reflux medication. The acid from reflux can erode the airway and can also cause respiratory problems due to aspiration, so don't write off medication. Go see the GP.

kelpeed Sat 24-Aug-13 11:22:33

OP

ear infection??

could also be urinrary tract infection. Does your baby cry a bit when weeing?

mine had urinrary infection diangosed at 3 weeks. multiple infections were diangosed for the next month.

He was diagnosed with utheral reflux . The top valve/muscle of the bladder doesnt close off completely when the child wees, so the bladder can't push all the week out of its ureter. hence bladder doesnt really empty fully and so increases chance of bacterial infection setting in the bladder. Ds was on antibiotics u til he grew out of it to everyone's gret releif at about 2 years old.

http://www.kidshealth.org.nz/urinary-reflux-vur-vesico-ureteric-reflux

TELL your Dr you want him/her to check for whether your baby has a uts. You want the Dr to culture the sample to see what bacteria could be present. Just doing a dip stick check is not sufficient for infants as the dip stick needs a fairly large bacterial count before it will provide a positive test. Relying on the dipsrick test alone could therefore just give a false negative.

Tell him/her to give you sterile urine sample jars. make sure you practice catching the wee before you open the jar as you need to get a clean catch of the wee sample midstream to minimise the chance of other bacteria contaminating the wee sample. half the time the wee will be finshied before you work out where to aim the jar. sometimes you will stuff up opening the jar and your finger will end up inside it- not good as this will give mixed growth when the pathology lab runs the culture.

give the wee sample to the dr as soon as you possibly can (ask when the pathology people come to collect the samples and try to time your wee catching with time). if thecukture comes out positive, then just take the anitbiotics for its course. obvsiouky if you get several UtSs then it's time to do ultrasounds and possible the positively awful diangnostic tests after that which I wont bore you with.

...it doesnt seem right when the Baby keeps crying for no apparent reason, and the Dr has no answers but makes out you are being neurotic for being worried. sad

If no infection try seeing oseto as suggested byothers and/or pediatrician and/or immunologist to check for allergies. A qualified clinical dietician (i mean a dietician with medical/scientifc credentials, not just a big siste/MIL lecturing you about what the diet they readin the latest mag) could also provide valuable advice on HOW identify problem foods, so you dont have to elminate everything on the basis of "i think he could be intolerant of XYZ so im not going to eat any off it on a just in case basis. this way lies food/diet madness. the dietician can help you work it out systematicallly.

kelpeed Sat 24-Aug-13 11:24:00
hettienne Sat 24-Aug-13 13:22:08

Lactose intolerance is very serious in babies, and would cause a lack of weight gain/failure to thrive.

cumfy Sat 24-Aug-13 16:00:01

List of foods to avoid.

Not sure what the evidence is, but seems to basically be foods, adults avoid to minimise their reflux.

Pineapplefreak Sat 24-Aug-13 16:45:22

I second silent reflux, DS has it and although he slept loads all the other symptoms sound the same. Baby gaviscon done the trick!!

KittenCaboodle Sat 24-Aug-13 16:58:31

Can you describe a feed? How often does she feed?

What happens if when she cries you put her to the breast and try to feed her?

It sounds awful and horribly stressful for you both sad

indyandlara Sat 24-Aug-13 17:01:13

Silent reflux I would guess. My daughter had this and was very similar at that age. She also barely slept at night. Hi back to gp with info about it with you. It was my bf supporter who diagnosed DD.

confused3331 Sat 24-Aug-13 17:09:56

OP i haven't read the whole thread but i do have 2 reflux kids. It really does sound like silent reflux to me. Esp hiccups. Please feel free to have a look at Living With Reflux on facebook. It's a great support group and will help you get support you need. Unfortunately, reflux is very misunderstood by health professionals and difficult to diagnose.

ButteryJam Sat 24-Aug-13 17:32:05

Kitten, when she is upset she will completely refuse the breast. In fact she will cry and scream when I attempt to put her side ways to go near the breast.

Her feeds are always either when she has fallen asleep or as soon as she has woke up. When asleep she will feed fine. When awake she bobs on and off alot, and fusses alot and sometimes coughs as well. Her feeds awake tend to be short (sometimes even just 5 min).

confused3331 Sat 24-Aug-13 17:36:03

Her feeds are always either when she has fallen asleep or as soon as she has woke up. When asleep she will feed fine. When awake she bobs on and off alot, and fusses alot and sometimes coughs as well. Her feeds awake tend to be short (sometimes even just 5 min).

really does sound like both of mine. It's like they learn that feeding causes discomfort so they stop, but they are sort of tricked into feeding when asleep.

btw. refluxey kids don't always fail to gain weight. Sometimes gp's wont do anything until they can see weight loss or failure to thrive, but really they need to address the pain before it becomes an issue not afterwards.

Pobblewhohasnotoes Sat 24-Aug-13 17:39:15

It's true, my DS always put on weight despite having reflux. The issue was the screaming and the vomiting.

confused3331 Sat 24-Aug-13 17:59:14

For the first few months mine put weight, health professinals say not to worry as they'll grow out of it. Most of them do by 18 months old, but mine haven't and because of useless HV's who told me to 'chill out' my son now has feeding aversions and is on 0.4th centile (was 50th when born). So if you continue to have problems, please keep pushing. If it is reflux maybe worth trying Gaviscon. If you suspect silent reflux, ask for Gaviscon to see if it makes a difference (it deosn't always). There are tests to determine whether it's silent reflux or not but they are invasive (PH probe down oesophagus). But instead many kids with suspected silent reflux are tried out on meds and if the meds seem to imrove things then it's highly likely that they have reflux.

KittenCaboodle Sat 24-Aug-13 20:07:46

The stuff your describing with the feeding sounds awful sad. It could be something medical like reflux, or an intolerance, and their is an awful lot to be said for your instincts about whether there is a problem that needs further investigating.

However, it could also be something more straightforward and easy to fix to do with feeding. For example, oversupply might cause these sorts of issues, as baby might be getting lots of the more watery milk produced first, this is lactose rich and can lead to lots of digestive issues. It can also make them unsettled, as not only is their tummy uncomfy, but also they don't feel as full because they never get to the richer fattier milk because their little tummy is full already, but it's not as calorific, so they get hungry, and the cycle continues. This would make sense in conjunction with a fast let down, or less than perfect attachment, leading to lots of fussing at the breast. There are other possibilities too, for example various possibilities linked to tongue tie or even tongue tie after division (which I think you mentioned?).

It could be lots of things. Can I suggest you ring one of the breastfeeding helplines and start by talking through the feeding thoroughly with them? They are great at listening and will really hear you out. If it does turn out to be something like reflux, then they will also support you with any breastfeeding aspects whilst you get the medical care you need from a doctor. The BfN are on 0300 100 0210 from 930am-930pm, and there are other helplines too, I just don't have the numbers handy!

One final thought, sometimes, later and in restrospect, parents say they can see that these early issues were related to their child's personality and it's part of what it is to be them. You'll find our own way through, but many parents say that movement and carrying their baby close can help, a a good sling can be a real help.

I hope things improve very soon.

ButteryJam Sat 24-Aug-13 20:52:23

Thank you everyone! A sling isn't always helping as she wants to be held arm around her upper torso and legs dangling down facing outwards.

I don't know why but it has got worse in the past few days. I'm really tempted to go to A&E but I don't want to be fobbed off and I'm also not in my home town hmm

barleysugar Sat 24-Aug-13 20:58:38

Hi there, it could be the sugar in the calpol that soothes her rather than the paracetamol. Sucrose solution can help with colicky wind, why not try making up a sugar syrup and giving her a little syringe of it instead of calpol.

I'm sure there's nothing wrong with your lovely baby, but I do understand how you are feeling.

marriedinwhiteisback Sat 24-Aug-13 21:08:15

Go at about 9/10am tomorrow. Sunday mornings should be quiet and the registrars shd have had some kip and be in a relatively good mood. Early rugby practice starts tomorrow morning so don't leave it too late. Not medicl for parent to chronic asthmatic as a baby who's now a rugby player so got used to the a&e routine. Get it sorted and at least a trip to ane will be reported to your HV so they might start taking you seriously although ime they were hopeless and I would never recommend any mother takes much notice of them.

ButteryJam Sun 25-Aug-13 09:19:52

married, I'm not in my home town today, is it still worth going?

marriedinwhiteisback Sun 25-Aug-13 10:14:05

Have you had a bad night?

I'm not an expert but I don't see what you have to lose - they will write to your GP/HV and get the thing moving for you. It may even be that in year home town year GP/HV are dealing with a consultant paed who has a particular ethos.

jumpingpillows Sun 25-Aug-13 10:37:35

I wish they would give you bloody ranitadine!

ButteryJam Mon 26-Aug-13 11:14:41

Thanks everyone! Took my LO to A&E yesterday, and after a 3 hour wait and much screaming from her, the sleepy doctor wasn't sure and suggested it may be colic. He said it was unlikely to be silent reflux as babies with reflux he said feed more for comfort, not less. He advised me to keep a diary and the good thing is he has referred us to a peadiatrician and we should be seen within a week. I'm not sure whether I should have a 'silent reflux consultation' with the sleep lady (http://www.thesleeplady.co.uk/silent-reflux-tips/) or just wait for what the consultant has to say?

ButteryJam Mon 26-Aug-13 11:15:48

And oh yes, he also advised us to give her infacol ...

marriedinwhiteisback Mon 26-Aug-13 11:20:34

You've a referral to a consultant paed in a week. Thatks brilliant. Come back and let us all knoW how it goes.

LostInWales Mon 26-Aug-13 11:24:41

Well done, paed referral is awesome work, well worth the wait in A&E.

ButteryJam Mon 26-Aug-13 11:41:23

Thanks married and lostinwales, I will keep you updated! smile

VomitingVeronica Mon 26-Aug-13 13:08:23

Another vote for silent reflux here. And F off to the doc who said they feed more for comfort when they have reflux, complete bollocks! My son bobbed on and off the boob inbetween screams until we moved to the bottle because i could chase his mouth around with it! my daughter now only feeds if we are walking and rocking - same as your child, it makes her sleepy so she actually takes some milk. My back is shot!

Ped referral will hopefully be quick, did they say how long? Personally I would try the Gaviscon now anyway. You have it to hand (you can buy the stuff off prescription anyway) and will only be told to try it next anyway so if you find you need something with more umph you will have to wait longer for the next appointment which could be weeks. I think it is kinder to the body than calpol, but go slow on introducing it. We started adding it to one bottle per day until they were all gavisconed starting with the first feed of the day because that was the one they both had most trouble with. Have some glycerine suppositories to hand just encase, it does bung them up and it can take a bit of time to get used to passing a thicker motion. Only use a bit the size of a pea though.

With both of mine were refluxers with cmpi and ended up on 20mg omeprazole, carobel and nutramigen aa and we definitely found the 3 month growth spurt to be the worst time, it eases I promise! My youngest is just over it so we are now counting down with dread to the 4 month spurt.

Good luck!

VomitingVeronica Mon 26-Aug-13 13:16:27

Ps when you see the ped it might be worth asking about your lo sleeping on her front. We didn't with my son even though the consultant had said it was ok but have with my daughter and it has made such a difference to her sleep. She is able to self settle and sleeps as long as she needs. We use an angel care monitor (not flawless but a bit of reassurance) and have a fan going to keep the air moving. If not the definitely get a cot wedge, it gives a much better angle than putting books under the end of the cot and because their bottoms are on the flat they don't slide down.

ButteryJam Mon 26-Aug-13 20:44:28

Thanks Veronica. My DD has been sleeping on her side since birth, as she doesn't settle on her back at all!

TattyDevine Mon 26-Aug-13 21:02:55

Its been said but barely a quarter way through your post and REFLUX!!!! screamed itself at me x

DragonMamma Mon 26-Aug-13 21:21:28

Another vote for reflux and/or some kind of intolerance.

My DC2 was a silent-ish refluxer (no projectile vomiting but it would just stream out of his mouth constantly), he also was lactose and cows milk protein intolerant.

He was a big baby because he used to comfort feed to help settle the acid, albeit temporarily. Luckily I got referred to a great, old school paed who understood that even if a baby is gaining wait, it doesn't mean there isn't something wrong with them especially when they were pretty much peeing watery poo out of their bum. I had to stop bf'ing because the lactose was still upsetting his.stomach and a combination of omaprazole, domperidone and nutramigen milk saw a massive difference in him.

He's slowly grown out of his allergies now he's 2.5 but he can't have a lot of dairy because it causes eczema but he can quite happily have cows milk on his cereal and a yogurt a day, with no ill effects.

You have my sympathies, it's a horrible place to be when nobody is listening but just push push push!

twilight81 Mon 26-Aug-13 21:23:14

Another one who before I even finished your post thought silent reflux... My ds had it really severely, later proved by various tests. The GPs and health visitors all fobbed me off, it was only my insistence that I knew something was wrong that got us the help he needed.

Flappingandflying Mon 26-Aug-13 22:50:37

Try a cranial osteopath. It really works. Looks like woo but sorted my two out although they just had colic and not reflux.

Your baby sounds as if he has reflux. When you go to the DR, take your partner with you. Regretfully there are many professionals who treat any woman who has a baby as a dimwit and can be patronising gits. Interestingly their attitude changes when faced with a man. Somehow his mere presence adds vercity to the situation. Deeply, deeply annoying but needs must when you need to get a baby sorted out and sometimes it just helps to feel you have someone backing your corner. I hope things have changed over te past 18 years but seemingly not and any problem seems to be dismissed as 'oh it's just babies/childbirth effects/not enough sleep etc etc. Of course their are people who take their children with the slightest thing, but it's a shame that it is too easy to be tarred as 'over worrying' or 'neurotic'. Be quite 'brisk' and capable sounding when you go as well. Unfortunately you are going to have to find your inner tiger and get roaring!

ButteryJam Mon 02-Sep-13 15:46:45

Hi,

Thanks everyone for your very supportive messages and help.

I thought I'd give an update:

I went to see a lovely paedetrician today who after listening to everything, went on to explain colic to me, and how it peaks around this time, and how it's a behavioural issue, and of course how hard it must be. I mentioned I thought it may be reflux and he prescribed lansoparazole to reduce the acid, but didnt seem entirely convinced (?). But I think I will try it and see how it goes.

I also mentioned to him that going dairy free didnt seem to much make difference except now that I am back on dairy she vomits 1-2 tsp after a feed, or an hour or so after a feed, and hardly used to do any before. He said if it was cow milk intolerance I would have seen an immediate difference! I'm just wondering whether I should still go dairy free? (It is a huge struggle for me no doubt, but I'm willing to do anything)

RumAndBoak Mon 02-Sep-13 16:03:10

So glad someone listened to you !
How long ago did you introduce dairy again? If it was a few days ago I would stay dairy free to see what difference the lansoprazole makes - any change can then be attributed to the medicine rather than wondering if its dairy or meds.
Good luck and fingers crossed!

ChilliJo Mon 02-Sep-13 16:12:07

How long did you remain dairy free and were you really, really careful (checking ingredients of everything)?

I say this as my DD (my 2nd DC) was just like your DD sounds and I knew she wasn't right and that she wasn't just a difficult baby after my easy first which was what EVERYONE was telling me angry .

When I tried cutting out dairy, I began to see a difference after a couple of days but it was closer to 5 days before she was cured. This was when she was 16 weeks old. On 2 subsequent occasions after that I accidentally ingested the tiniest amount of dairy and she was horribly uncomfortable and unsettled almost immediately. Thankfully I slowly introduced dairy back in to her diet from when she was 13 months old and she had no issues with it at all.

I really hope you get to the bottom of what's bothering her soon, I remember those days all too well thanks

HeyUGuys Mon 02-Sep-13 16:17:25

I'd say definatly silent reflux, you have discribed my 11wo ds perfectly, he has infant gaviscon.

IfNotNowThenWhen Mon 02-Sep-13 16:38:12

My reflux baby only started sleeping at 8 mon ths when he could roll onto his tummy.
He was diagnosed because, like you, I knew something was wrong, and I took him to the a and e. The Paediatrician there diagnosed reflux and gaviscon.
I also realised he was retaining wind, or was very difficult to wind properly, and the paed showed me a method which they use, where you run your hand firmly up the baby's right side (I think-check this!) which is where the large intestine is, and that would bring up the trapped wind.
That helped enourmously.

muchadoaboutsomething Mon 02-Sep-13 16:42:01

I just want to say I am glad someone listened but I do get fed up with Paeds not listening to parents saying their children have reflux. With prems they know because it shows in their sats. They can test blood sats and if they dip when a child feeds it's reflux. I do wonder whether this is true for slightly older children as it does make it very clear cut when a baby needs something

HeyUGuys Mon 02-Sep-13 17:42:41

Some drs dont believe silent reflux exists, my ds1 was diagnosed as he was in ICU so was drip feed, when the pulled up the milk they could see a problem. Ds2 was bf until 3 weeks when he totally stopped feeding an all the other symptoms OP has discribed. Dr sent me away saying it was colic, i went back the nxt day to a different dr, walked in and said my ds has silent reflux, i need infant gaviscon, domperidone etc. she didnt question me at all.

ButteryJam Mon 02-Sep-13 19:16:10

Thanks everyone!

Rumandboak, I introduced dairy 4 days ago.

ChilliJo, I was completely dairy free (everything - I used the kellymom guide) for 2 weeks and I didn't see a difference, in fact she got worse. When re-introduced, she definitely brings up more milk but doesn't seem more unsettled by it.

SHarri13 Mon 02-Sep-13 19:25:45

Dairy takes 3 weeks to clear from the body iirc x

SHarri13 Mon 02-Sep-13 19:27:18

kellymom.com/health/baby-health/food-sensitivity/

See 'What if a specific food appears to be a problem' section here, hope it helps.

SHarri13 Mon 02-Sep-13 19:29:45

Also this re reflux,

kellymom.com/health/baby-health/reflux/

I'll stop now grin sorry if you've already seen them.

appletarts Mon 02-Sep-13 19:31:00

Dairy does not take 3 weeks to clear from your breast milk. The impact should be withing 24 hours.

trixymalixy Mon 02-Sep-13 21:03:29

I saw a change in DS within 24 hours after eliminating dairy. Unfortunately I then replaced it with soya and was back to square one....

OHforDUCKScake Mon 02-Sep-13 21:48:11

Snap trixy when my baby was like yours OP, I stopped dairy and replaced it with soya and I had no change. I did it for 2-3 weeks, and then figured it wasnt dairy so went back to it.

Then I gave him a yoghurt at 5 months and he went into anaphylactic shock.

I instantly stopped weaning him (he was only 5 months anyway) and stopped dairy and soya, since I was told most dairy allergic babies are so with soya.

Within 2 days the reflux, pain and waking stopped.

As 2.3 year old now, he is still very allergic to dairy and soya.

Did you replace your dairy with soya?

Wishfulmakeupping Mon 02-Sep-13 22:15:51

Glad you did take little one back to dr and they've given you something for the reflux. I spoke to Hv 3 times and had 2 trips to dr before they finally gave me infant gaviscon for my dd it worked so well reflux must have really been hurting her before we got that she never seemed comfortable.

Wishfulmakeupping Mon 02-Sep-13 22:16:16

Meant to add hope treatment makes a difference.

ButteryJam Wed 18-Sep-13 17:38:37

Hi,

I came back to thank everyone who offered me support and advice on this thread, mumsnet really rocks! grin And hopefully the update may help someone else going through a similar thing too.

We started treatment for silent reflux just over two weeks ago despite the paedetrician not being too keen on it (suggesting its probably colic), but he did prescribe it. It took two weeks of being on medication for us to see a major difference, and my LO is so so much happier now, and this is how it is to have a baby! smile Gosh, the relief (!) and it is just so so nice to see my baby happy! smile smile I am so glad I didn't listen to HV and pushed for referral, I just wish I had done it earlier!

Thanks once again everyone and yes, do follow your instinct!

trixymalixy Wed 18-Sep-13 17:47:48

That's great to hear Buttery!!

Catsize Wed 18-Sep-13 17:52:30

Another vote for cranial osteopathy here. Make sure the person specialises in treating babies.

ButteryJam Wed 18-Sep-13 17:52:53

And I must add she now feeds whilst awake grin

ButteryJam Wed 18-Sep-13 17:54:34

CatSize, I've seen two cranial osteopaths that specialise in children, both of whom don't treat reflux, and after sessions I didn't see a difference with my DD. Maybe others have had a good experience, but for me, they have been a waste of money.

ButteryJam Wed 18-Sep-13 17:55:36

And to add to that, one of them let my DD cry for over 10-15 min saying she is just tired and hence screaming, and telling me to pull my socks and be a stronger mother. I left crying ...

Gatekeeper Wed 18-Sep-13 17:56:07

thanks for updating; lovely to read your last post smile

Catsize Wed 18-Sep-13 17:56:27

Oh, sorry to hear that buttery. Sending you a brew
My son had colic and cried, ate or slept. No nice awake bits. You are doing fine, and it really will pass. Promise. But I know it is horrible at the mo.

Gatekeeper Wed 18-Sep-13 17:57:18

last post at 17:38...not the bit about you crying x

Catsize Wed 18-Sep-13 17:57:21

Blimey! Just read your last post!! Grrrrrrr.

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