AIBU to want to punch the mother I saw yesterday getting baby's ear's pierced?

(478 Posts)
ElleBelly Wed 21-Aug-13 11:59:35

Was in Claire's Accessories yesterday with my 4yo daughter, and there was a Mum getting baby's ear's pierced. Bab must have been about six months, and was screaming her head off, made me feel sick. Cannot for the life of me understand why people put their children through that at that age. It's so cruel. And mother was laughing with friends about it! Have got DS second lot of imms this week and dreading it, pathetic,over emitional,hormone befuddled woman I am, and just think its so wrong to put a baby through that pain uneccessarily.
Sorry for the rant but I so wanted to give her a slap.

usualsuspect Wed 21-Aug-13 12:03:14

Aaaaaarrrrrgggggghhhhh

impatienttobemummy Wed 21-Aug-13 12:03:45

Slap away! My sis in law plans to do this asap 6mth old girl I think she's an idiot

hettienne Wed 21-Aug-13 12:04:54

I don't understand why Claire's don't have a policy against piercing screaming/crying/distressed children.

HappyJoyful Wed 21-Aug-13 12:05:22

Brief search on here will tell you subject done to death week after week..
month after month.

I suspect you will get a few people ARGHHHHING & YAWNING!

Live and let live - cultural differences - personal preferences

YANBU. Wasn't there a petition started about Clare's doing this last time this topic was raised on MN?

racmun Wed 21-Aug-13 12:06:22

Disgusting. I personally hate earrings on girls but then I wasn't allowed mine done until I was 18.......

Surely there should be a minimum age introduced of say 12 at the youngest.

ElleBelly Wed 21-Aug-13 12:09:26

Thought it would have been done to death but am new to Mumsnet and couldn't be bothered to trawl through entire history before posting, plus it upset me and needed to vent.

Jinsei Wed 21-Aug-13 12:09:28

It's the norm in some cultures. I personally don't like it, but I don't think it's that big a deal if others choose to do it.

ChimeForChange Wed 21-Aug-13 12:09:57

YABU for wanting to punch, violence solves nothing :-)

YANBU for being disgusted. There is absolutely no practical reason for piercing babies ears. It is purely cosmetic and someone would want to 'improve' the look of their baby is beyond me.

ChimeForChange Wed 21-Aug-13 12:10:42

*why

HeySoulSister Wed 21-Aug-13 12:11:55

your op is horrible....makes you as bad imo

also,why was baby crying......had the ears been pierced at that point?

Greythorne Wed 21-Aug-13 12:14:42

I think earrings are a minor issue. I would allow my DDs to have their ears pierced if they wanted them done. On a baby? The issue of keeping the piercing clean would worry me.

But punching someone? Nah.

Tattoos on people of any age on the other hand are absolutely foul

Feminine Wed 21-Aug-13 12:17:12

Parents should be able to get it done at the Doctor.

if they really want

The "punching" bit is a bit silly though.

ElleBelly Wed 21-Aug-13 12:19:28

Yes had just been pierced... and OP a little tongue in cheek, not a violent person was just pissed off about her blasé attitude as much as anything else!

hettienne Wed 21-Aug-13 12:19:35

I don't really think wanting to punch someone hurting a baby is as bad as actually hurting a baby.

Tee2072 Wed 21-Aug-13 12:22:16

Yes, violence is the perfect response to something that is none of your fucking business.

Fakebook Wed 21-Aug-13 12:22:22

If you felt so angry by it, why didn't you say anything? Was it because its none of your business? Because it isn't.

Amrapaali Wed 21-Aug-13 12:22:30

Claire's don't pierce ears of babies that are screaming or in distress. I had my DD's ears pierced when she was 1. The first time was a no go as she was too panicky and the Claire's assistant flat out refused.

The second time took all of 30 seconds, and DD was upset at the sudden shock more than anything else...

hettienne Wed 21-Aug-13 12:23:47

Your baby was upset at the sudden shock of you punching a hole through her flesh? Who'd have thought it.

Saffyz Wed 21-Aug-13 12:24:13

YANBU. If the child wants their ears pierced when they're old enough to decide, they can do it then.

HeySoulSister Wed 21-Aug-13 12:24:31

I would think the shock and noise of it distressed the baby more than any pain......its the pain afterwards which i hate the thought of. especially if it becomes infected. horrible.

StephenFrySaidSo Wed 21-Aug-13 12:29:12

"Claire's don't pierce ears of babies that are screaming or in distress."

yes they do.

I don't care whether it's cultural reasons or for appearence, it's an unnecessary procedure that the baby can't consent to and no reputable practitioner should be doing it.
Absurd to say 'it's none of your business' - the OP saw a parent inflicting pain and mutilation on their child. I would say that's everybody's business wouldn't you? God knows why piercing infants isn't illegal. It should be.

ElleBelly Wed 21-Aug-13 12:30:01

No I didn't say anything, because I'm not going to have a row in a shop in front of my daughter and with a baby with me. Well aware that its none of my fucking business, lots of things are none of my fucking business but doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on them or be angered by it.

Amrapaali Wed 21-Aug-13 12:31:23

Really Stephen? shock

When I had my daughter's ears done, they very specifically said, right at the outset, "We will not proceed if your baby is too upset". Mind, this was a good 6/7 years ago. Don't know if Claire's has changed...

brightonbythesea Wed 21-Aug-13 12:31:39

YABU. I wouldnt do it, I think it is horrible on babies but people can make whatever choices they want about their children within legal limits. Her baby, her choice.

Tee2072 Wed 21-Aug-13 12:34:34

It's not illegal. It's not abuse. And it's none of your fucking business.

If it was illegal or abuse and you didn't speak up? Then you'd be a cunt.

You're not a cunt because it's none of your fucking business.

mynameisslimshady Wed 21-Aug-13 12:35:39

grin Tee nicely summed up.

Fakebook Wed 21-Aug-13 12:36:20

^ What Tee said grin

hardboiledpossum Wed 21-Aug-13 12:36:58

It should be illegal under 10 though. It also looks grim.

goldenlula Wed 21-Aug-13 12:38:21

It isn't something I would do, I don't like seeing it on small babies but each to their own. My mum had mine done before I was 2. I don't remember having it done, my mum has said she would now have waited but at the time my nan was very ill and wanted to pay, so she agreed. Dd is 2, she won't be having he ears pierced for some time yet,but if she asks we will talk about it. Oh and apparently I did cry when having mine done, but because they dared to clip my hair back, once y took the clips out I happily had them done!

Of course it's abuse - it's painful, distressing and leaves an open wound on a baby who is completely unable to consent.

I don't like seeing babies who are distressed, but as I come from a cuiture where most babies have pierced ears, I don't see the total harm in it ifyswim. Although I wouldn't do it, it's not abuse, the baby is more likely to be crying because of the shock/sensation rather than actual pain, and as long as the parents keep the holes clean and make sure the baby grows up knowing about keeping the holes clean and open (or not, if she wants) then I don't see why it matters much. It's not abuse.

The laughing about it is wrong, but it could be a nervous laugh, or a reassuring type laugh or anything, someone might have said that all of them do that, and she laughed in reply, it could be anything tbh.

sherbetpips Wed 21-Aug-13 12:40:25

Op I am presuming that when you said you wanted to 'give her a slap' (not sure if punching was ever mentioned?) you were using as a familiar phrase, there was no actual violence intended.

Agree on the minimum age thing, never understood the need to decorate something that is already so beautiful but then again when I see little girls covered in pink frills and bows I think the same - as many have said - each to her own nowt to do with the rest of us.

miemohrs Wed 21-Aug-13 12:41:02

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Amrapaali Wed 21-Aug-13 12:42:15

I don't think so, hardboiled. I think around roughly 4 years, a child can usually anticipate pain. That makes it doubly worse. The actual hurt and the mental build-up to the piercing.

And why 10? Do babies feel pain more? Or is it because at 10 they can "decide"?

StephenFrySaidSo Wed 21-Aug-13 12:44:14

"Really Stephen?"

I see it regularly on my way to/from work as I walk past claire's. tiny one's being held tight on one person's knee and another person holding their head while the baby is thrashing about trying to get away, screeching the place down, faces bright red. some of them try and hold a dummy in the child's mouth. I've seen a bottle being held in too and the baby just screeching around the bottle tip. it's awful.

HeySoulSister Wed 21-Aug-13 12:44:56

sherbert 'punched' was in the title??

hettienne Wed 21-Aug-13 12:45:11

No, it's not illegal - but then neither is hitting you children, or shouting abuse at them, or lopping their foreskin off. Doesn't mean most people aren't horrified that supposedly loving parents would subject their helpless little children to pain and suffering.

SilverOldie Wed 21-Aug-13 12:45:16

I think it's revolting to pierce a baby's ears when they have no say in the matter. Why would you want to put your baby through the pain?

By the way, it's easy to see which of the posters on here have had their own baby's ears pierced.

sherbetpips Wed 21-Aug-13 12:46:13

Its a bit like docking puppy dogs tails because they look better to the owner - bet the dog doesn't think so. Although we did stop doing that, good old RSPCA.

sherbetpips Wed 21-Aug-13 12:47:07

ha ha sorry soul sister didnt even read that!

HeySoulSister Wed 21-Aug-13 12:47:15

i assumed the poster said age 10 because its the age of criminal responsibility? in the uk it is anyway

age 11+ is secondary age and also an age whereby courts listen to a childs view in family courts (though a mature 10 year old would be listened to in most cases,i was thinking of Gillick competency)

Pawprint Wed 21-Aug-13 12:48:10

I remember getting mine done when I was 15. It really hurt when they did the piercing. I had assumed they would use some local anaesthetic, but no sad

I don't like to see babies or children with pierced ears because of the risk of infection or inhaling the earring.

PGRated Wed 21-Aug-13 12:49:20

It should be considered abuse. It should be the child's choice when they are old enough.

KellyElly Wed 21-Aug-13 12:49:34

My DD is three and constantly on at me to have her ears pierced and it's a firm NO. Three reasons - she'd probably end up with only one done because of the pain, she wouldn't be able to take care of them herself and also because personally I don't think it looks nice on young children.

ElleBelly Wed 21-Aug-13 12:49:58

No, there was no actual violence intended, as I wouldn't even want a row in front of my kids of course i wouldnt descend into violence,this was said a little flippantly I suppose.i just think that something that is PAINFUL and is purely for decoration ought not to be carried out on a baby. Once a child is old enough to understand that it will hurt and choose it for themselves, then no problem.

ive seen it being done too in the claires near me. babies and small children being held down because they are screaming and struggling to get away... and parent is laughing like its the funniest thing ever angry

it shouldnt be allowed! there should be an age limit like with tattoos

Well YABU to want to punch the mother because you'd be committing an offence, probably assault.

But YANBU to dislike the process of ear piercing on small babies.

There is a certain irony in this discussion. Punching mother = assault, putting hole in babies ears = absolutely fine and none of your fucking business

hettienne Wed 21-Aug-13 12:54:14

Wanting to punch someone isn't actually a criminal offence.

gamerchick Wed 21-Aug-13 12:55:58

Of course it's abuse... what kind of idiot actively puts holes through their young baby? Appalling. It's unnecessary and looks bloody stupid.

Mind I won't even put holes through myself.. just no need.

That's true hettie but I was taking it in the sense of the actual punching IYKWIM?

nameuschangeus Wed 21-Aug-13 12:58:09

Interesting how people on here get all het up about circumcision (for example) but don't mind piercing ears.

Circumcision is also often a cultural choice, as some are saying on here about ear piercing.

Both or horrible ways of mutilating a child IMO. And however much you cry 'none of your business' or 'judges pants' we're all allowed an opinion.

KellyElly Wed 21-Aug-13 12:58:50

Surely OP was just using 'wanting to punch' as turn of phrase rather than literally?

My 11 yo DD had hers done (at Claires) because she's finished Junior where they can't wear any jewellry.
In Secondary she'll have to take them out for PE

She made the choice. I explained everything to her.
I got her the 18ct gold ones to reduce risk of reaction.
There was a clause in the consent form about them not proceeding if the child was distressed.

I've seen very young toddlers in having their ears done. sad but I'll decide for MY child,

brightonbythesea Wed 21-Aug-13 12:59:51

piercing a baby's ears is also not a criminal offence. Not nice, I agree, but also completely up to the parent. No parent should be judged for their choices as long as those choices are legal.

ICBINEG Wed 21-Aug-13 13:00:35

yanbu.

The same age restrictions that apply to tattoos should apply to ear piercing (and any other non-medically required procedure eg. non-medically required circumcision).

brightonbythesea Wed 21-Aug-13 13:00:56

also circumcision?! why is this relevant??!

ElleBelly Wed 21-Aug-13 13:01:43

Bloody hell I'll certainly choose my words more carefully next time...as I've said, I'm not condoning violence and don't agree with it etc etc. I was just putting across how upset I was...and as I've said, I'm well aware it's none of my fucking business, but my opinion, which I'm allowed to have, is that it's fucking cruel.

thebody Wed 21-Aug-13 13:02:39

but was the baby bf or ff.

was she parked in a disabled space as well the complete bitch.

was there a fight at her wedding?

stop drip feeding op!!

ICBINEG Wed 21-Aug-13 13:02:46

I'll decide for MY child

they aren't YOURS. Their ears aren't YOURS.Their bodies don't bleong to YOU. They belong to themselves....

brightonbythesea Wed 21-Aug-13 13:03:05

youre allowed an opinion and she is allowed to pierce her baby's ears. Free country amd all that ..

lovestogarden Wed 21-Aug-13 13:05:56

I was about to say that - it's not illegal and there isn't an age barrier is there?

I don't like it in small kids (god knows how they don't catch and pull the earring - especially babies with hoopy ones) and it does hurt getting them done!

My grandma did a DIY job with a darning needle, bit of ice and cork when she was about 20 (this was in the 1930s and her parents didn't let her have them don, although it was all the rage). She said that she could still remember the pain and having to go to her dad to get the needle out as it got stuck. I was quite old when I got mine done (same time as my mum who was in the 50s). Funnily enough, it was my brother (in a pop band) who got his done before anyone else in the family.

Pobblewhohasnotoes Wed 21-Aug-13 13:06:22

I really dislike seeing earrings on any child, especially on babies when they're having that decision made for them. It looks cheap and tacky.

You're right, it isn't any of your business, but of course you're allowed an opinion over it.

lovestogarden Wed 21-Aug-13 13:07:27

urrrrrrr, mum was in her 50s when she had it done (egged on by her bad influence mate!).

ElleBelly Wed 21-Aug-13 13:07:53

I know she's allowed to pierce her child's ears. Still think its wrong. And I'm a newbie, I don't know what you mean by "drip feeding".

What I meant by "I'll decide for MY child" was -
the decision was made by my DD (as I explained) to have her ears done.
At aged 11 yo she wanted it done , she'd waited and made her mind up.

The MY child bit referred to the fact I don't give a shiney shite what other people decide for their children.

OK by you?

ICBINEG Wed 21-Aug-13 13:10:20

hmm there isn't that much overlap between things that are ethically wrong and things that are illegal....that's why we have a moral framework as well as a legal one as a society.

It isn't illegal to let your ageing parent live out their life alone, struggling more and more to cope with everyday life until they fall one day and no one finds them till weeks later.

That doesn't mean that people wouldn't question your morals in doing that....

ICBINEG Wed 21-Aug-13 13:12:20

70 not really. I disagree that children of other people are not the concern of society as a whole.

If something is morally wrong, it is wrong. Even if it is done to a child not related to you.

Otherwise why do we care about children being sex trafficked abroad? It isn't illegal in those countries?

ICBINEG Wed 21-Aug-13 13:13:05

70 I don't have a problem with your DD and her ears btw. I have a problem with the assumption that what other people do to their children is none of my business.

brightonbythesea Wed 21-Aug-13 13:14:28

That is different from ear piercing. Morally, as nice an idea as it is, we do not all follow the same framework. It would be nice, bit we don't. There will be people who pierce their childrens ears, leave their elderly parents, smack their children and circumcise their sons. These things are okay for them, not for the people on this forum, but that is the way of our diverse world.

mignonette Wed 21-Aug-13 13:15:21

When I was a child living in Central America my sister and I both had our ears pierced by a nun using a cork, needle and ice. It was culturally usual to pierce the ears of babies. We were considered rather long in the tooth to have it done. I remember how traumatised I was by it and explains why I hate nuns

Not something I would ever do. Think OP's comment about 'punching' is more to do with the feelings of rage it invoked in her as opposed to any real 'intent' though. Am I right OP grin....

ICBINEG Wed 21-Aug-13 13:15:52

bright so you don't believe there are moral absolutes?

If a culture allows the rape of children under 5 then we should live and let live?

MariaLuna Wed 21-Aug-13 13:18:24

So you want to be violent to someone who you perceive to be doing something violent to someone else?

hmm

Jolleigh Wed 21-Aug-13 13:19:42

Lots of very judgy people who evidently have never made a controversial parenting decision commenting.

To each their own. My mum had my ears pierced at 6 months. The only advantage I've had really is that the holes never heal over regardless of how long I don't wear earrings now. I don't intend to do it to my newborn when s/he arrives next year. But that's my choice and it doesn't mean I resent the one my mum made for me.

Just like it's the individual parent's decision whether to circumcise their sons based on culture/religion/aesthetics/anything they want. Circumcision is mostly unnecessary these days but you don't see me butting my nose into other people's lives over it.

And those of you commenting negatively about tattoos - is there really any need to bring your personal preference on tattoos into a discussion on piercing babies' ears? I didn't get my tattoos for what other people may think. Mine are both discreet and unique as they're self designed. If you don't like tattoos, influence your own family with your opinions rather than trying to alienate people to don't know based on how they choose to look.

angelos02 Wed 21-Aug-13 13:21:07

"Its a cultural thing". I couldn't give a tom tit. So is circumcision. Doesn't make it acceptable.

ICBINEG Wed 21-Aug-13 13:21:38

joll are you after a medal for 'not giving a shit what happens to any child not biologically related to me'?

Funny sort of medal to want...

MortifiedAdams Wed 21-Aug-13 13:25:28

I dont know why anyone would peirce jewellry into their baby's ears.

Oh, wait, yes I do - because they are too.into appearances to give a shit that it is painful and pointless.

As long as their little pwincess looks pwitty as a picture.

Fuckwits.

ICBINEG Wed 21-Aug-13 13:29:26

I think a pretty clear and simple moral absolute would be:

It is ethically wrong to make a non-medically justified permanent modification to any body other than your own.

You can tell it's wrong because you couldn't get away with it with an adult. If my mum had my ears pierced without my permission now that I am an adult I would be suing her for assault.

Jolleigh Wed 21-Aug-13 13:29:48

ICBINEG - more saying that there appear to be people on here assuming that everybody has the same set of values as they do. To many people, culture is an extremely important part of life. There are many countries that have laws and traditions I don't agree with. I tackle that by choosing not to live there. Providing the parents are within the confines of the law, which allows for religious and cultural freedom, it's up to them what set of values they live to.

Hulababy Wed 21-Aug-13 13:31:13

I don't think it should be allowed on any child who cannot make the decision for themselves and ideally be able to look after them for themselves.

So toddlers and babies - def not!

Dd had hers done this summer. She's 11 and going into secondary. She says it didn't hurt at all and she has looked after them entirely herself. So far all going well. She's wanted them done a while and was happy to wait until summer between primary and secondary which I felt was the best time at earliest.

ICBINEG Wed 21-Aug-13 13:31:22

joll hmm so you would support the refusal of a blood transfusion to a child on religious grounds? That kind of thing?

I completely reject the idea that parents are free to do as they choose with their children.

ICBINEG Wed 21-Aug-13 13:32:26

also it is fecking obvious to all that we have different values...you can't have the same values I hold dear (the right to bodily autonomy) and think it is okay to pierce babies ears....

Viviennemary Wed 21-Aug-13 13:32:50

Maybe it's time for a campaign to get this made illegal. It's horrific.

ICBINEG Wed 21-Aug-13 13:33:35

YY sign me up!

soverylucky Wed 21-Aug-13 13:34:02

I can think of other cultural preferences that involve inflicting pain on others that we don't accept. Piercing a babies ears for vanity is pretty sick imo. How can you make a baby more beautiful that it is - you can't. Will never understand why people do this to their kids.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Wed 21-Aug-13 13:35:05

I do think it's wrong to do this to a baby who can't express an opinion on the matter, and it is a bit dangerous (getting caught on clothes, yanked out or being a choking hazard) but the thing that really gets me that you're sticking holes in your baby's skin to try and make them more attractive. I just don't get that mentality at all. It's weird and gross and just unnecessary.

celticclan Wed 21-Aug-13 13:38:04

What are the cultural reasons for piercing a babies ears?

CissyMeldrum Wed 21-Aug-13 13:38:29

After nine months you finally meet your beautiful baby and think "lets improve on perfection by sticking bits of tat in their ears".....Why ?
I'll sign that petition.

LostMarbles99 Wed 21-Aug-13 13:39:18

I hate it, looks so tacky.

IMO it's mutilation as the baby has holes pierced into its body without the ability to give consent.

Jolleigh Wed 21-Aug-13 13:39:53

ICBINEG - I don't have to agree with it. I do have to accept that in order to maintain religious and cultural freedom in this country, people need to be allowed to make some decisions that I unfortunately don't agree with.

hettienne Wed 21-Aug-13 13:41:47

I find it weird that so many posters are objecting to the OP feeling angry about seeing a baby being hurt (wanting to punch the mother).

I feel pretty angry when the bloke next door kicks his dog. I wish someone would go and kick him and see how he likes it. Does that make me just as bad as him?

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Wed 21-Aug-13 13:42:24

At what point do we decide that religious freedoms override the health, safety and wellbeing of the child though?

yy to Vivienne. I believe that it's actually legal to have any party of your baby/child pierced with the exception of their genitals and in the case of girls, nipples. So lips, eyebrows, belly buttons are all fair game sad

BlingBang Wed 21-Aug-13 13:42:26

We don't get it as it's not our culture. If the majority of you lot just happened to be born in say India or Spain or perhaps came from that background but lived in the UK then I guarantee that most of you probably would pierce your babies ears. You would think differently it.

brightonbythesea Wed 21-Aug-13 13:42:41

What a very judgemental thread. I clearly don't condone the rape of children, and have never said anything of the sort. I thought I liked mumsnet but actually, it's crap.In the past few days I have realised that all it is, is judgemental people like you ICB who think they can stroll around deciding what other people should do, and if for a second they don't like what other people are doing, they run home and write a thread about it so all the other judgey mummies can get on board and agree with them. If it's not ear piercing or other peoples' cultural practices, it's how other people should definitely never touch formula, never sleep train, never call their child flower/chav names and never have a night away from your children. Perhaps all you judgemental mumsnet parents should write a 'how to be a perfect, middle class parent' manual, and then we can all benefit from your perceived wisdom. Bullshit, I'm out of this crappy forum.

lovestogarden Wed 21-Aug-13 13:43:41

A campaign? They'll be queuing up to take their cases to the European court of human rights, and yet another bloody waste of time and money that will be.

Just don't get me started on the European court of human rights... oh, I already did... boo hoo, so you son can't wear a skirt to school, and he wants to just because the school rules says he can't - or rather, doesn't say that he can (and he wants to study law when he leaves school, so the publicity can't hurt?)? Was he born into slavery, abuse and prostitution? Is he being discriminated against because of his gender, sexuality or any disability? Is his quality of life being eroded and made unbearable? No? Well bugger off and come back when your rights as a human are actually being infringed.

OK, ok they also do a Lot of Good Stuff too...

Rant over.

hettienne Wed 21-Aug-13 13:44:18

I think the law should be pretty clear on this - don't injure or hurt other people without their consent unless it's medically necessary and they are unable to consent.

If I dragged my 90 year old granny with dementia down to Claire's to get her ears pierced, because I thought it would look pretty, and she was crying and confused and trying to get away then I think most people would have something to say about that.

celticclan Wed 21-Aug-13 13:44:27

But what are the cultural reasons for doing this?

Not so long ago it was part of our culture to have the cane in school and both my parents were brought up with a belt hanging next to the dining table that would be used for trivial reasons. It was part of our culture. It isn't now.

Are there religious reasons for ear-piercing? I don't think there are. Please could someone explain what the cultural reasons are.

Pobblewhohasnotoes Wed 21-Aug-13 13:45:15

On a pregnancy app I looked at when I was pregnant (it was a mainly American audience), some people on it said they got their babies ears pierced so that random strangers could tell they were a girl. Because obviously correcting people you don't know or care about would just be too difficult...

kilmuir Wed 21-Aug-13 13:45:24

so anything goes if we throw in the cultural line? yes you can have female circumcision as its a cultural thing???
disgusting behaviour, shame on Claires for taking part in it.
Anyway looks very chavvy

froggies Wed 21-Aug-13 13:46:20

Dd1 has been asking because 'xxx has hers done'. She is 8 this week. I have said when she is 10 (and then only if a proffessional piercer will do it). So she asked Exp, who has said yes.

I have discussed with her pain, aftercare, not being able to take then out for PE so missing PE (school started back yesterday), not being able to go swimming (lessons start next week), until they have healed.

I am not anti-piercing, I have several and I went with DS to get his ear done at the body piercers for his 14th birthday. I am hoping that her love for swimming will be greater than her want to be the same as her friend, I cannot stop Exp from taking her to get it done and he won't listen to a word I say, but I really don't think that she is old enough to make that decision for herself just yet. To get a baby pierced is wrong in my opinion.

thebirdsandbees Wed 21-Aug-13 13:46:27

YANBU. Why the eff is it not illegal to purposely harm & scar your baby & cause considerable distress & weeks of pain. Fuckwits! It's so blinking scummy!

usualsuspect Wed 21-Aug-13 13:46:55

There we go, the real reason MNETTERS don't like it.

'It looks chavvy'

I think you'll find a lot of tattooists and piercers feel very strongly about piercing guns too. They cannot be autoclaved and therefore are only at best disinfected. The person pierced by the gun before your baby could have had HEP B or any other blood borne virus.

thebirdsandbees Wed 21-Aug-13 13:47:51

And shame on Claire's!

RabbitIssue Wed 21-Aug-13 13:49:26

I'd sign the petition. If you pierced your dogs ears you'd probably get prosecuted (rightly) by police/RSPCA, but it's ok on a child you can't consent?? hmm

Amrapaali - Why did you pierce your 1 year old's ears? Serious question, I'd like to understand the logic.

lovestogarden Wed 21-Aug-13 13:49:35

Culture norm can cover a multitude of sins/practices.

Foot binding only died out in China in the early 20th century, and there was a case of Satism (is that the right term for the act of a Sati?) in the 1980s in India, while the police had to intervene in the late 1990s (yes, 1990s to stop a widow from self sacrifice).

pajamapants1 Wed 21-Aug-13 13:50:49

Christ what happened to the nice little stick on one's! I think my mum let me wear those until I was about 10 and then took me to get them done properly. Thank god I have 2 ds!

BlingBang Wed 21-Aug-13 13:52:12

I don't like it and wouldn't do it but to judge people who see it as the norm in their culture is quite harsh when you would probably do as they are doing if you were of that culture. Doesn't mean you can't raise the issue or talk about it or try and get the law changed. But the harsh judgements and insults are a bit narrow minded and little England.

TylerHopkins Wed 21-Aug-13 13:53:35

"Its a cultural thing". I couldn't give a tom tit. So is circumcision. Doesn't make it acceptable

Just about sums it up for me.

RabbitIssue Wed 21-Aug-13 13:55:15

Bling - so you don't judge people who perform female circumcision then? As it's cultural? hmm

TheOriginalSteamingNit Wed 21-Aug-13 13:56:35

It's not that it looks 'chavvy', it's that it looks, on a little baby or toddler, like something which indicates that that child's parents have prioritised doing something which they think looks nice but know hurts and serves no purpose other than to look nice (if we even could agree that it did) over their baby's happiness and well-being.

Was any 6 month old ever happier for having its ears pierced? There's no benefit to it at that age; it's done because the parent wants it done, even though they must know full well that it does hurt.

So it looks to me like their parents have some values I don't much care for.

lovestogarden Wed 21-Aug-13 13:58:08

I wouldn't do it if raising a child in Spain or wherever it's seen as the 'norm'.

It's also a bit insulting to assume that it's 'cultural'. My grandmas parents were Spanish living in the NE, and they really didn't want her to have it done (only gypsies had it done then according to them).

And I'm not 'Little England'. It's 'Little Scotland', if you please.

loopyluna Wed 21-Aug-13 14:00:07

My DD is the only girl in her class who hasn't got pierced ears. She's 7!

I live in France though and I wonder how many of the boys in her class haven't been circumsized. From friends and neighbours, it seems to be common practice for "medical reasons"...?

Definitely a case of cultural preference. I wouldn't have liked seeing a small baby being put through this but I do find MN to be particularly snobby and judgy on this subject.

usualsuspect Wed 21-Aug-13 14:00:38

Wouldn't want anyone to think you were a Chav would you?

TheOriginalSteamingNit Wed 21-Aug-13 14:02:38

Usual, to be fair, I think only one person has said 'it looks chavvy', and you're picking up on that rather than anything else that's been said.

It hurts babies and it's of no value to them - therefore I think less of those who do it to their babies.

Jolleigh Wed 21-Aug-13 14:02:43

Ear piercing is on the same level as female circumcision now? Jesus, we best take it to the human rights court and get it outlawed. Then we can drive the practice underground because those who have a cultural motive will still want it doing. Hygiene standards won't be regulated and more babies get serious infections from it.

Ah wait, that solves bugger all, doesn't it?

TheOriginalSteamingNit Wed 21-Aug-13 14:05:33

Jolleigh of course it isn't on the same level as female circumcision... that doesn't mean it isn't an irresponsible thing to do to a baby, or that the idea of a higher age limit set on it shouldn't at least be considered.

I think most people who take a 6 month along to get its ears pierced would probably wait a bit if the rules were different, rather than taking it underground - unless you are arguing that those who would pierce a baby's ears are so heedless of that baby's safety that they would take it somewhere unreputable to be pierced? wink

soverylucky Wed 21-Aug-13 14:06:11

one person says it is chavvy so that means the rest of us also think that...er yeah right.
No the vast majority of us who are against it are because of the unnecessary pain it causes. And what about a baby or tot getting it caught on their clothing or turning their head when asleep and getting a pin in their neck?

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Wed 21-Aug-13 14:08:43

Just because x isn't as wrong as y, doesn't mean it's not still wrong. Stealing a packet of chewing gum is inarguably more wrong than mugging a frail old man for his war medals, but it's still wrong to steak the gum.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Wed 21-Aug-13 14:09:45

*less wrong, even.

SamG76 Wed 21-Aug-13 14:11:56

Well said, loopyluna - snobby and judgy sums it up.

Do the parents of kids in your daughter's class appear to be neglecting their kids in any other ways. If not, as I suspect, it's something they think is in the kids' best interests.

ElleBelly Wed 21-Aug-13 14:13:40

Don't give a shite how it LOOKS and wouldn't ever use the word chav. Fir what its worth i am covered in tattoos and have several piercings. That I got as an adult.Being able to consent to the procedure, understand the risks, and cope with the discomfort. My objection to it is down to the fact that it is painful, unnecessary, and totally pointless on a baby that age, plus as a nurse I've known countless small babies/toddlers in A&E with earring backs stuck in ears which are then even more painful to remove, infections, several instances of backs/studs having to be removed from ear canals/noses, or being swallowed.
In terms of it being a cultural norm, as others have said, that doesn't mean it's right, prime example being FGM!

TheOriginalSteamingNit Wed 21-Aug-13 14:14:07

Sam: How do you mean, though, 'best interests'? Which of the baby's interests are served by ear piercing?

Jolleigh Wed 21-Aug-13 14:14:15

TheOriginal - I get where you're coming from completely RE instating an age limit. I just think there are much much more serious issues that those who determine the law should be using their time tackling.

Yes, many of us don't like it and I'd certainly be uncomfortable watching it. But I respect the fact that the parent has their own motives and they've weighed up any possible risks against those motives.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Wed 21-Aug-13 14:16:22

But that's kind of the problem, right - they've weighed up their motives against the risks to the baby. And the motives can't be really anything to do with the child's welfare, either - a baby isn't upset by being thought a boy, or not looking cute enough, is it?

MummyBeerest Wed 21-Aug-13 14:17:26

My Dr's office offers ear piercing for a fee. I don't intend on getting DD's ears pierced, if only for the practical reasons-infection risk, her constant pulling on her ears if she has an ear infection or teething, not wanting to have to clean ONE MORE THING, potentially losing fancy earrings because kids lose things, no one ever buys me earrings-etc. Etc.

But I'd wonder why one just wouldn't go to the Dr instead of some teenaged apprentice ay Claire's. Hell ofa lot less ssketchy IMO.

Jolleigh Wed 21-Aug-13 14:23:10

I don't see the benefit to the baby whatsoever (see my original response) but everybody has their own ideas about what constitutes bad parenting. Many parents would rather pierce a little girl's ears very young because they're extremely unlikely to remember it, whereas if they waited until the child asked, the child is much more likely to remember. I'd personally rather sit safe in the knowledge that my daughter asked for the piercings, but I certainly won't sit and try to change the opinions of those who hold the psychological effects of later piercing in high regard.

nat138 Wed 21-Aug-13 14:26:30

Really tho! you call ear piercing mutilation!!!! like really!!! I lack words.
Well people should learn to respect other people's values/beliefs/views as long as these do not lead to death.

I have no issue whatsoever with babies ears being pierced, just do it at the doctors instead of an accessories shop, eye threading shops or tattoo parlours.

SamG76 Wed 21-Aug-13 14:33:24

TOSN - I don't know what the baby's interests are, but the parents probably do, which is why although I wouldn't pierce my DD's ears, it doesn't bother me especially if someone else does it to their kids. If there were any evidence that the kids were in any way neglected, or that the parents didn't have their interests at heart, that would be a different matter.

jellybeans Wed 21-Aug-13 14:33:46

YANBU. I think it looks awful to be honest but rightly or wrongly it is the parents choice. My girls were about 10 & 12 when they had theirs done and it was a good age. I would have let them from about age 7/8 probably but not much younger. I waited till it was their choice.

BlingBang Wed 21-Aug-13 14:37:00

Lovestogarden - how do you know you would not do it if yor were born and brought up in another country where it was regarded as the norm? That alone sounds very little England or in your case Scotland.

zatyaballerina Wed 21-Aug-13 14:44:09

It's unnecessary distress for the baby, I think ear piercing is fine once they're old enough to ask for it and take care of the cleaning themselves but babies and toddlers are too young. There's also a danger of them ripping them out by pulling at them or another kid pulling at them in the playground. I always wonder with parents who do this to their girls, how do they prevent that? Wrap them up like little dolls and refuse to let them run around amongst the other toddlers in case they rip their ear lobe???confused

DropYourSword Wed 21-Aug-13 14:44:14

I have had a LOT of body piercings over the years (50+) and every single one of them has hurt. As an adult I knew and accepted that would be the case because I wanted the end result but I don't think it's fair to force piercings onto babies. People are very surprised at my stance but I genuinely believe there should be a minimum age for body piercings and an absolute ban on piercing guns.

RabbitIssue Wed 21-Aug-13 14:55:19

Nat - so you're ok with anything that doesn't lead to 'death' hmm

Ok, mind if I chop my dc's arms off then? I think they look prettier that way.

And no one is equating FGM to ear piercing, we're simply saying that everyone who says 'it's cultural' as if that were an argument, is a bit thick, because you could argue that about fgm and no one would, would they??

HappyMummyOfOne Wed 21-Aug-13 14:58:23

Earings in babies and primary school children look tacky and cheap and is a reflection of the parents.

Piercings should all be 16 years plus. That way the consent is given by the person who will have holes in their body for the rest of their life. Another adult should not be able to choose to do that to a minor.

Jolleigh Wed 21-Aug-13 15:01:49

Ok Rabbit...everyone who doesn't agree with you is thick.

This just got a bit too playground for me ladies.

Enjoy being judgmental. Hope you're all perfect parents who never make decisions that others disagree with.

RabbitIssue Wed 21-Aug-13 15:03:26

Jolleigh - I've asked for someone to explain to me why anyone would do it and no one has. That can only lead me to believe that anyone choosing to do it is a bit thick. What else would you call them?

Harming your child for no reason - erm either thick or cruel then? Is that a better word?

SirChenjin Wed 21-Aug-13 15:04:30

From Unicef -

"The views of the child means that the voice of children must be heard and respected in all matters concerning their rights. Countries must promote children's active, free and meaningful participation in decision-making that affects them".

So, piercing a screaming child fits in with this how exactly?

JedwardScissorhands Wed 21-Aug-13 15:05:45

I wouldn't do it, I'm not especially bothered if other parents do as it isn't my business, although I would support legislation making it illegal to pierce children.

fedupofpoo Wed 21-Aug-13 15:06:50

Meh,had DD done when she was 4 months,cried 2 min then as happy as usual.never had a problem in 5 years,no infections or anything.can't see it as a big deal.on the other hand,had mine done at 10 years old,had lots of problems,infections etc and had to have it done again.most women wear earings,so better have it done earlier then later imo,it heals quicker

RabbitIssue Wed 21-Aug-13 15:13:12

FedUp - can you explain why you had it done though? You say better earlier than later but you know it's not compulsory right? Can you explain why you felt your 4 month old needed earrings? This is a genuine question, I just don't get it.

StephenFrySaidSo Wed 21-Aug-13 15:16:26

it's not inevitable that a person will choose to have their ears pierced upon reaching an age where they can decide you know. getting it done as a baby to save them remembering the pain is ridiculous because there is no obligation for that person ever to have their ears pierced. in other words you are inflicting needless pain on a baby.

Alisvolatpropiis Wed 21-Aug-13 15:19:29

Yabu.

Keep your hands to yourself.

roundtable Wed 21-Aug-13 15:22:17

I saw a newborn getting his ear pierced sat in a chair in the middle of the chemists.

Apart from the hygiene issue and that the gun was as big as the baby's head, the crying that came from the baby made me feel physically sick.

I judged, it should be banned. There is no benefit to the pain except for the aesthetic aspect. Just because it's not illegal, didn't mean it's right.

I find it extraordinary how certain posters jump on certain threads judging the judgers and claiming they judge nothing. Having a moral compass means making judgements. How can everything be ok? Where is the line drawn?

loopyluna Wed 21-Aug-13 15:26:47

*Well said, loopyluna - snobby and judgy sums it up.

Do the parents of kids in your daughter's class appear to be neglecting their kids in any other ways. If not, as I suspect, it's something they think is in the kids' best interests.*

Nope. No issues at all. It's a private school in an affluent suburb of Paris. It's just not considered as a bad thing this side of the channel. (The French have a totally different concept of chavvy!)

SirChenjin Wed 21-Aug-13 15:29:31

"Keep your hands to yourself"

Absolutely - and let the baby choose for him/herself when it reaches an age where it can make a decision what it does to his/her body.

BlingBang Wed 21-Aug-13 15:35:39

happymumofone - they look tacky to you, obviously not to millions of parents round the world. would you really judge all those people alike?

m0therofdragons Wed 21-Aug-13 15:36:27

Hate babies with earrings but what's go my blood boiling is the comment that a GP offers ear piercing for free in the doctor's surgery. Brilliant, glad I'm paying NI for that service! (sarcastic tone for anyone who missed it)

forehead Wed 21-Aug-13 15:48:00

Cultural reasons- yada yada
Mutilation- yada yada
Child's rights- yada yada
Chavvy- yada yada

Heard it all before

Surely there are more pressing things to worry about than whether some random woman decides to get her baby's ears pierced fgs
OP, yadddddddddbu

cheerfulweatherforthewedding Wed 21-Aug-13 15:49:28

I saw this a couple of years ago (in claire's). They had two assistants, each with staple gun, and they pierced both ears simultaneously.

Apparently it gets the procedure over and done with more quickly and prevents the likelihood of great distress of having the second ear done once the child has realised how painful it is.

StephenFrySaidSo Wed 21-Aug-13 15:49:59

"MummyBeerest Wed 21-Aug-13 14:17:26

My Dr's office offers ear piercing for a fee."

*motherofdragons you can calm down now grin

usualsuspect Wed 21-Aug-13 15:51:54

It's like bloody grounding day on here.

Yeah I know ,I will hide the thread,and the next one and the next one..

usualsuspect Wed 21-Aug-13 15:52:29

Groundhog*

MunchkinJess Wed 21-Aug-13 15:56:41

In South America its our culture to get babies ears pierced before they are 6 months...still undecided if we are going to do this ...

celticclan Wed 21-Aug-13 15:58:45

Nobody has explained what the cultural reasons are.

Is there anyone here that has pierced their child's ear for cultural reasons?

roundtable Wed 21-Aug-13 15:59:29

I suppose most threads on mn are about current affairs and for as long as people see it being done and object to it, they'll be threads on it.

calopene Wed 21-Aug-13 16:02:29

OP - you sound awful ! Why is violence the answer to violence ?

roundtable Wed 21-Aug-13 16:02:49

I think culture can get intertwined with tradition possibly.

Some people find it very hard to break tradition even if there's no apparent reason for it. It's just how it is for them.

celticclan Wed 21-Aug-13 16:04:55

Well if that is the case it's time for people to start questioning outdated practices. Doing something because its always been done that way is no reason to continue.

BlingBang Wed 21-Aug-13 16:07:33

it's probably tradition. we have cultural norms in the uk that look strange and often cruel to other cultures.

celticclan Wed 21-Aug-13 16:10:27

I can't think of any BlingBlang.

celticclan Wed 21-Aug-13 16:13:01

Not that is relevant anyway.

MrsOakenshield Wed 21-Aug-13 16:17:57

usual - why are you here then?

It's got fuck all to do with culture - it's traditional with some people, that's all. And like many traditions, needs to be knocked on the head. Who the fuck is anyone to decide on behalf of a tiny baby (a person, not a possession) that they want their ears pierced? It might surprise some people on here that quite a number of girls and women don't want their ears pierced. These babies don't get the choice.

I find it extraordinary that the RSPCA managed to get tail docking made illegal, but it is still fine to mutilate a child for no actual medical reason. And even more extraordinary the number of people who actually need this explaining to them.

I thought the poster who mentioned taking a woman in her 80s with dementia to get them done, regardless of her being distressed, made an excellent point. That would be disgusting beyond belief, but it's fine to do that to a baby?

Sheesh.

MrsOakenshield Wed 21-Aug-13 16:18:35

yes, I'm still waiting to hear what these cultural reasons are.

BlingBang Wed 21-Aug-13 16:19:09

well many other cultures are shocked at how our old folk go into homes rather than be cared for ay home for eg.

loopyluna Wed 21-Aug-13 16:20:54

*it's probably tradition. we have cultural norms in the uk that look strange and often cruel to other cultures.

I can't think of any BlingBlang.*

How about toddler reins? Where I live, people are absolutely outraged and disgusted to see a toddler being held on a lead. They prefer to teach their DC from a very early age, how to behave safely in public.
There are certainly no more toddlers getting lost or being hit by cars here than the UK.

However ear piercing is just seen as being well presented which is very important here, along with neat hair and clean clothes.

Thepowerof3 Wed 21-Aug-13 16:24:50

Toddler reins are not a cultural norm! I have never seen anyone using them so hardly 'the norm'

celticclan Wed 21-Aug-13 16:24:59

I was just skimming through a forum called Spanglish baby and they had debated the issue. It would appear that people choose to pierce their babies ears because they had their ears pierced as babies they don't want their babies to be mistaken for a boy. Neither of these are good reasons in my opinion.

One poster attributed piercing babies ears as part of the over sexualisation of girls. She said it is not uncommon for 6 year old girls in her home country of Costa Rica to wear track suits with the "Playboy" logo emblazoned across the backside and girls are introduced to the beauty industry from an early age.

celticclan Wed 21-Aug-13 16:27:21

BlingBang in this country most of us do not have homes big enough to accommodate elderly relatives. Dh grew up living with his elderly grandmother and my best friend did too. Unfortunately house prices do not allow for multi generations to be living under one roof.

loopyluna Wed 21-Aug-13 16:31:56

Thepowerof3 -really? Every time we're in the UK, one of my kids expresses horror at seeing some poor child being dragged along on reins of some kind. I've also heard numerous French people talk about seeing British people with children on leads in holiday resorts!

Goes to show how judgements can be so easily made!

(Disclaimer -my children were never so well behaved in public as their French counterparts and I was often tempted to use reins. Just sharing an observation of something perceived as cruel by non Brits.)

celticclan Wed 21-Aug-13 16:33:13

You can't compare toddler reins to ear piercing.

Ear piercing hurts and can cause infections. I had numerous infections after having my ears pierced and my niece ended up in hospital.

Toddler reins prevent toddlers from running into the road in front of a lorry and do cause any harm to the child.

The two are not comparable.

Jolleigh Wed 21-Aug-13 16:33:55

So you know MrsOakenshield - tail docking is only outlawed for breeds of dog that are no longer considered to be working dogs. There are however a lot more hoops to jump through in order to dock a dog's tail. Those hoops only need to qualify for a single dog out of a litter for it then to become legal to dock the full litter. The RSPCA only made it more difficult, certainly not illegal.

(I did extensive research on this after adopting a dog with a docked tail).

celticclan Wed 21-Aug-13 16:34:10

Do not cause harm.

mignonette Wed 21-Aug-13 16:35:10

My Mexican friends are appalled at how the British place babies in nurseries, send their children away from home to be educated and place their elderly in scuzzy care homes. We are seen as socially primitive.

Not defending ear piercing (especially as i had it done against my will whilst growing up in Central America) but plenty of moral arrogance and cultural 'superiority' on display here. Nor am I anti doing any of the things I mentioned above but our glasshouse is a sodding large one.

LaRosaBella Wed 21-Aug-13 16:35:23

Your babies ears aren't yours they are that babies ears, you shouldn't be able to choose to alter them for your own pleasure when there is no medical reason. Your baby should make the decision if they want piercings when they are old enough. I think its very egotistical to take that decision away from your child.

celticclan Wed 21-Aug-13 16:36:28

I didn't use reins because I found them to be a hindrance. However, I'm surprised at your children expressing horror at seeing children being kept safe.

SamG76 Wed 21-Aug-13 16:40:55

Thanks, Mignonette for excellent example. I know people who don't eat as a family at table, but in front of the telly. It's socially primitive, probably contributes to obesity, and seems ridiculous to me and probably to most South Europeans...

As for living in nuclear families, I don't think everyone who does this elsewhere lives in a big house - they just make sacrifices that we would consider ridiculous in order to look after their parents.

mignonette Wed 21-Aug-13 16:43:31

Exactly Sam. I visit my friends regularly and see the sacrifices they and their families make to ensure people are looked after. Yes, they pierce their children's ears. No, I do not agree with it. But comparing it to FGM is like comparing feeding a child junk food w/ starving him to death. The comparison is a breathlessly hysterical one.

loopyluna Wed 21-Aug-13 16:44:10

The two are not comparable.

By our norms!

The French would argue that ear piercing is (in the majority of cases), an instant of pain, completely harmless in the long term.
They would say that being held on a lead, is morally and psychologically damaging to a toddlers self esteem and even a deprivation of liberty". Really.

Having neither used reins, nor had DD's ears pierced, I don't care one way or another, but I really find the whole "culture" argument very one-sided and narrow-minded!

celticclan Wed 21-Aug-13 16:51:11

But why are we comparing pierced ears to toddler reins and care homes anyway?

Lots of other cultures do things differently and better than the UK. I have noticed that lots of other countries seem to be a closer knit than the UK and families often support each more. Still can't understand why it justifies piercing a babies ears though.

It isn't just a cultural thing anyway. People in my family have pierced their babies ears and they didn't do it for "cultural" reasons.

MrsOakenshield Wed 21-Aug-13 16:53:27

but these are considered part of British culture. Because they're not. They're not even traditional or the norm - nurseries and care homes are simply one of a number of options available. I have never seen, in a debate about reins, anyone refer to it as part of our culture. But culture is always given as a reason why many people pierce their babies ears on these debates. And it's bullshit. It's a tradition.

LaRosaBella Wed 21-Aug-13 16:53:39

I don't know anyone who's used reins?

MrsOakenshield Wed 21-Aug-13 16:53:53

*these are not considered

MrsOakenshield Wed 21-Aug-13 16:56:36

thanks for the info about tail docking Jolleigh, I didn't know that.

m0therofdragons Wed 21-Aug-13 16:56:49

phew, thanks for pointing that out re fee.

still think that if I stuck 2 drawing pins in a child it would be seen as abuse and dont see piercing any different. Just because other cultures do it doesnt mean it is right.

fedupofpoo Wed 21-Aug-13 16:57:10

rabbit as i said most if not all women will have their ears pierced at some point.i think is better done earlier,babies heal very quickly and when they get to 3/4 they are going to start wanting earrings,son better they had it already rather then doing it then and them remembering etc.pain only lasts a couple of minutes,its not like is a surgery or anything,its not necessary to have it done at 4months but its better imo.

Andro Wed 21-Aug-13 16:57:32

Interesting that people here are saying that OP is being unreasonable. MN has so much about safeguarding and reporting abusive parenting yet poking sharp metal through a baby's flesh is okay as long as it's for earrings? I doubt the answers would be teh same if teh mother was poking her baby with sharp metal in any other (none medical) situation...

Andro Wed 21-Aug-13 16:58:22

Ugh, I don't seem to be able to type 'the' properly blush

m0therofdragons Wed 21-Aug-13 16:59:52

oh I know lots of people who use reins - not usually for 1st child but I do with dtds and everyone I know with multiples does but also many with 2 or more dc - perhaps it's due to the fact that 4 years ago a family I know nearly lost there dc (2) when she was hit by a car. She survived but is brain damaged. It was in all the local media so maybe we are extra cautious?

StephenFrySaidSo Wed 21-Aug-13 17:01:07
m0therofdragons Wed 21-Aug-13 17:02:23

Andro - completely agree.
dd1 is 5 and mentioned it for the first time - I said no she's too young, she said "does it hurt?" I said "a little bit yes" she has decided she doesn't like pain and won't ever have them done. Obviously she might change her mind but it's her body and her choice.

smileymam Wed 21-Aug-13 17:02:54

I took my daughter for her jabs at the doctors and there was a mother there saying "oh i hate bringing my daughter for jabs, my mother has to go in with her it upsets me too much" then went on to say "shes having her ears pierced tomorrow" baby was under six months old!! Couldnt believe it!

MrsOakenshield Wed 21-Aug-13 17:03:07

fed - that is simply not true that most if not all women get their ears pierced. I can think of 4 close friends straight away who don't (and I don't have that many close friends, so that's a reasonable proportion). A decision they made for themselves, not one that was made for them.

LaRosaBella Wed 21-Aug-13 17:03:33

Anyway how is piercing ears and nurseries comparable?
One is the choice to alter without permission a physical appearance of another human, forever. The other is a choice a family may have to make if they need to work and have no family to help with childcare.

celticclan Wed 21-Aug-13 17:04:16

It's not better. My niece was in hospital as a baby with problems relating to having her ears pierced. She could have been spared that.

You say children want to have ears pierced at 3/4 well just say no. The majority of young children do not have pierced ears so peer pressure is not an issue.

Dh's niece is 14 and has recently chosen to have her ears pierced, it hurt a little but she is 14 she is old enough to take it. She had to have it done at the beginning of the school holidays as earrings (even studs) are not allowed at school.

fedupofpoo Wed 21-Aug-13 17:08:24

that is my opinion,i dont expect everyone to agree with it.rabbit was asking my reasons for piercing DD ears when she was a baby and i explained,and of.i only have 1 friend that hasn't got her ears pierced and thats only because of a health problem

mignonette Wed 21-Aug-13 17:08:54

Because some cultures would argue that day care for babies causes more long term damage than a gold stud. Playing Devils Advocate here as i am a working Mother.

And it doesn't alter appearance forever. My ear holes closed up when I was sixteen from not wearing earrings and there is no scarring or evidence that they were ever there.

LaRosaBella Wed 21-Aug-13 17:09:04

Fedup- but there not your ears?! I never got mine done and I have no urge to, I don't like earrings enough to go through getting them pierced. I also have a 5 month old and I will never make decisions for her that changes her appearance forever. When's she is older if she wants her ears pierced, then that is her choice.

LaRosaBella Wed 21-Aug-13 17:13:43

It may do, i wouldnt know but its a choice some mothers may have to make or face losing their homes or starving? Where as ear piercing is purely for aesthetic reasons.

You may not having scarring but not everyone's ears do close cleanly. Also the risk of a baby pulling out, or them getting caught on something and ripped out, aswell as being painful could cause much worse damage.

celticclan Wed 21-Aug-13 17:13:58

mignonette, two wrongs don't make a right. Not that I'm saying nursery is wrong but you get the point.

My holes have closed over but you can reopen them by pushing an earring through. I think I went over 20 years without wearing earrings.

If you took a piercing gun to any other part of a baby or child's body, that would be abuse. Plain and simple.

What make the ear lobe so fucking special?

Jolleigh Wed 21-Aug-13 17:14:55

StephenFrySaysSo - you linked to a site that confirms that docking isn't illegal. Think you're getting confused because docked dogs can't be used in shows as an example if the breed - they can only be shown for working ability.

mignonette Wed 21-Aug-13 17:16:29

I never said two wrongs don't make a right.

However if you are an Anthropology buff there are thousands of different cultures all with traditions/rites of passage/cultural beliefs that we would find hair raising.

My holes are sealed- totally grin. No webs of skin.

StephenFrySaidSo Wed 21-Aug-13 17:16:45

that site clearly states that docking is illegal.

StephenFrySaidSo Wed 21-Aug-13 17:18:19

"The Animal Welfare Act 2006 makes the docking of dogs' tails a criminal offence, except for working dogs such as those used by the police force, the military, rescue services, pest control, and those used in connection with lawful animal shooting. Three options were presented to Parliament in March 2006 with Parliament opting for the second:
An outright ban on docking dogs' tails (opposed by a majority of 278 to 267)
A ban on docking dogs' tails with an exception for working dogs (supported by a majority of 476 to 63)
Retention of the status quo.

Those convicted of unlawful docking are liable to a fine of up to £20,000, up to 51 weeks of imprisonment or both.

In Northern Ireland legislation known as Welfare of Animals Act (Northern Ireland) 2011made Tail Docking Illegal except for certain working dogs. .[10]

In Scotland docking of any breed is illegal. The Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006 contains provisions prohibiting the mutilation of domesticated animals."

celticclan Wed 21-Aug-13 17:19:04

I thought mine were too mignonette. Just try, its fun. Dh was disgusted watching me do it. It was a really weird sensation and a little painful. That makes me sound a bit weird...

glossyflower Wed 21-Aug-13 17:19:23

I haven't read all 200 odd posts but I read the first page.
My there's some strong opinions isn't there?!
The day after having my DD I overheard another new mother saying she couldn't wait to get out to have her newly born DD ears pierced.
I was disgusted but each to their own I guess.
I had my ears pierced at 7 years old. My mum never forced me, I had asked to have them done and she agreed I could.
I think I was at an age old enough to know what it entailed and made that choice for myself.
If my DD wants hers done when she's old enough I will let her. But no way would I change or adapt her body for cosmetic reasons otherwise. It just seems cruel.

mignonette Wed 21-Aug-13 17:20:17

Celt.. If I get bored later I will try grin...

AmandaHoldenmigroin Wed 21-Aug-13 17:23:36

YABU for wanting to punch another mum.

fedupofpoo Wed 21-Aug-13 17:26:20

Larosabella,I make decisions for my children every day.should I let them decide everything for themselves?what to eat,when to go to bed ,what to wear etc.a little hole isn't changing her appareance forever,its barely visible.a little stud doesn't have much chance to be ripped off or whatever.little pain for few seconds and its done,nothing to be worked up about.to each their own

Jolleigh Wed 21-Aug-13 17:27:20

StephenFrySaysSo - it actually states that it is illegal for dogs that are not considered to be working breeds. It even gives you specific examples of breeds that the law allows to be docked. Very similar to what I stated originally really.

Pretty sure that the vets and breeders my info came from know their stuff. It appears you're either failing to read my posts properly or the Wikipedia page.

Jolleigh Wed 21-Aug-13 17:30:35

And StephenFrySaysSo should you look further than your trusty Wikipedia, you'll see that a breeder only needs to prove that a single dog will be used for working purposes, then the breeder is legally allowed to dock the tails off the whole litter.

ladymariner Wed 21-Aug-13 17:32:03

Pmsl at posters saying that reins on a toddler are cruel etc.....my ds loved going for walks with his grandad, we always put his reins on him before they went off simply because ds, even when tiny, was quick as an eel and my df obviously wasn't! What a ridiculous thing to say......

StephenFrySaidSo Wed 21-Aug-13 17:34:01

my post was in response to this comment you made "The RSPCA only made it more difficult, certainly not illegal."

this comment is incorrect. tail docking is illegal. you can choose to misinterpret the law if you like but it is illegal. certain breeds make the owner exempt from prosecution providing they meet specific criteria but it is illegal.

Jolleigh Wed 21-Aug-13 17:34:07

And by 'proof' I should probably clarify...a letter from a farmer saying he'll be buying one of the dogs to hunt with is considered plenty. My vet was very specific about that one.

JedwardScissorhands Wed 21-Aug-13 17:35:55

Actually, my little insignificant holes in my ears cause me a fair bit of trouble. Had them done willingly as an older child. Each to their own, but that argument doesn't hold, fedupofpoo.

Jolleigh Wed 21-Aug-13 17:37:27

My comment, surrounded by everything else I said, is perfectly correct. The breed doesn't make them 'exempt from prosecution'...the paperwork surrounding the docking in combination with the breed makes it legal to dock certain breeds. It is legal when done in a certain way. Bugger all to do with being exempt from prosecution.

StephenFrySaidSo Wed 21-Aug-13 17:38:54

you said it was "certainly not illegal" which is incorrect as it is actually illegal.

LaRosaBella Wed 21-Aug-13 17:40:30

I don't think you can compare bedtime and the food you feed your child, those are parental decisions you have to make. A child needs to eat and a child needs to sleep, what a child doesn't need is to have its ears pierced when they haven't made that choice themselves, it's called body autonomy and I believe in it.

Jolleigh Wed 21-Aug-13 17:45:48

And yet everyone else seems to have taken that statement in conjunction with the one earlier up the paragraph that outlined it's only illegal for dogs that are no longer considered to be working dogs. hmm Seems you're just a pedant.

StephenFrySaidSo Wed 21-Aug-13 17:49:22

everyone else? one other poster has commented on it- the lack of comment from others is not any sort of proof that any of them agree with it or have accepted it as correct.

quoteunquote Wed 21-Aug-13 17:52:25

My twenty odd year old son doesn't want his ears pierced, neither does his twelve year brother, nor his nine year old sister, or the toddler niece,

I would like to know exactly what age is it considered assault to hold someone down who is screaming with resistance and make holes in their body?

and am I limited to ears? Can I force my children to have holes in any other part of their body?

Do I march them all down to Claire's Accessories and see where the cut off point is, not sure how I will pin down the twenty year old, maybe gaffer tape, but I really would like to know the age you are allowed to abject to assault at,

or are you always allowed to alter the body of anyone you gave birth to?

I'm sure if it is legal to make holes and lop bits off children all of this will have been discussed, so where is the guidelines?

toffeelolly Wed 21-Aug-13 17:58:13

Op, really non of your business what this mother was doing, and as for wanting to give her a slap, do not think you should have said that.

Thepowerof3 Wed 21-Aug-13 17:59:17

Yes really LoopyLuna, why would I lie?? I have never seen anyone using reins. Are French children the epitome of good behaviour then? I saw plenty of naughty ones on holiday this year!

Jolleigh Wed 21-Aug-13 17:59:20

StephenFrySaysSo - you're arguing RE general consensus on my grammar now? Should we pick your grammar apart too?

I apologise for not DIRECTLY LINKING that particular part of my paragraph to the part that clarifies what I mean. In future I shall remember that this is MN and there are plenty of people like yourself here who choose to ignore the facts being discussed and hone in on a simple mistake in grammar instead.

Thepowerof3 Wed 21-Aug-13 18:04:33

I'm unsure how we got from ear piercing to massive generalisations about British culture, our children can't behave like the French, we don't eat together at the table like Mexicans. What a barrow load of shite

m0therofdragons Wed 21-Aug-13 18:09:38

At what point does child abuse become other people's business or do we just sit back and ignore it as it's only "mild" or because the end result will assist a child in being fashionable? (playing devils advocate but things are only acceptable if we allow them to be)

StephenFrySaidSo Wed 21-Aug-13 18:10:22

so you made a mistake saying "certainly not illegal"? is that what you mean? you mean to say 'certainly not legal'?

pull apart my grammar if you like. it doesn't change the fact that tail docking is illegal.

we could go round in circles on this but i'd rather not so i'm going to end my involvement in the tail docking discussion here as it's not what the thread is about. I apologise for the derail- I had only intended to dispute misinformation that was posted.

SilverOldie Wed 21-Aug-13 18:19:40

Nothing I've read since I last posted has changed my mind. It's barbaric to inflict pain on a baby for anything other than a medical situation. It's not for the baby's benefit, so why the hell do it?

I was pushed by a friend to have mine done when I was 38. The first one hurt, a lot, I yelled and the person doing it asked if I wanted the second one done. Well since I didn't want to look stupid, I said do it, that hurt too.

Saying it's cultural is bullshit, so is mutilating female babies' genitals, as others have said. Who could possibly agree with it?

BlingBang Wed 21-Aug-13 18:43:56

Celticclan some brought up reigns, care of old folk and babies in nurseries etc as you asked what we consider culturally acceptable and normal but other cultures might not or even think cruel and abusive.

No one is actually criticising these things just trying to make folk consider how things can be considered in a different way from different vantage points. People are being really smug and superior here they might only have this stance as they are viewing it through UK eyes. If you were born or lived in another country/culture it's very possible you might have happily trotted off to get your babies ears pierced.

ImNotABarbieGirl Wed 21-Aug-13 18:59:40

I'm sorry but some things are ok to judge.

If I see a parent swearing abuse at there child- I judge
If I see a parent wollop their child- I judge
When I see fb updates from parents about how "wasted" they got AGAIN last night- I judge
When I see parents restraining their children whilst a shop assistant punchrs holes in their flesh- yes, I judge.

Floatsyourboat Wed 21-Aug-13 19:30:00

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-30731/How-pierced-ears-leave-infants-agony.html

How is piercing a child's ear not illegal? It's not ok to smack your child when they are being naughty but its ok to pierce the child's ear in the name of beauty? World gone mad! At least leave it until they are old enough to make the decision for themselves!

chillinwithmyyonis Wed 21-Aug-13 21:23:50

Piercings should all be 16 years plus

Hahaha <rubs hands together> I'd like to see what your prospective teens think of that happymumofone, at less than 16 we chose to have eyebrow, bellybutton and multiple ear piercings, everyone was doing it... not to mention the godawful pooh bear or snoopy tatoos.

MN is batshit crazy.

acsec Wed 21-Aug-13 21:34:27

Claire's give no training to their staff to do ear piercing. When I left uni I was offered a job at Claire's, I didn't take it as I was told I would have to pierce ears, and briefly told how to use the piercing gun. I said I wouldn't be able to do babies ears, I was told I would do whoever was paying. I refused the job.

cumfy Wed 21-Aug-13 22:20:36

Sounds like assault to me.

Pretty horrified the piercer would do this.

littlemog Wed 21-Aug-13 23:17:12

Piercings should be an over 16 thing imo. When the person who is being pierced can give informed consent. Piercing babies is absolutely disgraceful and the 'my baby, my choice' idiots really make me angry. I think it is abuse.

To be honest I think that pierced ears on anyone look pretty naff (I am not a fan of earrings in general) but on tiny babies and young children they look unspeakably cheap and tacky.

littlemog Wed 21-Aug-13 23:20:04

And why are people taking the OP's comments as literal when she was just trying to express her annoyance and upset at what she saw?

SpanishLady Wed 21-Aug-13 23:21:33

This is very interesting. I am from Spain and had my ears pierced when two days old as a consequence never known the pain of it and holes never closed. I'm having twin girls in October and briefly thought about this recently - my conclusion was that while I don't see a problem with young girls having it done I don't think I'm interested in my girls following in my footsteps and will wait until they are interested and see it as a milestone birthday thing. I'm sure it does look distressing so have sympathy for Op.

littlemog Wed 21-Aug-13 23:23:07

Actually thinking about it, I used to teach in a really rough challenging area and many of the primary aged children and the pre-schoolers were pierced (not just the little girls either). I now teach in a very naice area where this sort of thing is much less prevalent. I wonder if there is a socio-economic connection here?

ICBINEG Wed 21-Aug-13 23:23:41

Can anyone think of a good reason for the age limit not to be the same as for tattoos?

I mean some cultures do tattooing from birth too... but we don't allow that..we have an age limit of 16.

So why not for piercings too? no one would have to fight with their 12 yo DC's about it then...

littlemog Wed 21-Aug-13 23:24:38

As well as any cultural factors (as outlined by SpanishLady) that is.

littlemog Wed 21-Aug-13 23:25:42

ICBINEG I agree completely. There is absolutely no reason for this not to be the case.

Andro Wed 21-Aug-13 23:34:38

I think it ought to be illegal for parents to consent to this on behalf of their child, 16 as a minimum age sounds about right.

There should be mandatory training/licensing so that only those who are qualified can perform piercings.

Piercing studios should be subject to random inspections to ensure safety standards are adhered to.

usualsuspect Wed 21-Aug-13 23:42:37

16? Don't be so ridiculous.

ICBINEG Wed 21-Aug-13 23:45:26

why is it ridiculous? Or rather why is it more ridiculous for piercing than for tattoos?

Saffyz Wed 21-Aug-13 23:47:13

I agree there should be a minimum legal age for piercings.

Alisvolatpropiis Wed 21-Aug-13 23:48:15

Tattoos is 18 not 16.

ICBINEG Wed 21-Aug-13 23:50:54

I heard it was 16 with parental consent or something...(may have been drunk at the time)

spottyblanket Thu 22-Aug-13 00:45:23

Piercing needs to be a matter of personal choice - of the person being pierced.

Babies have no choice, which is why it is fundamentally wrong.

littlemog Thu 22-Aug-13 00:45:53

usualsuspect why is 16 'ridiculous'? Hardly reasoned debate.

mummysbigsmiles Thu 22-Aug-13 01:14:41

Why would you want to inflict pain on a tiny baby??? �� I totally agree it angers the fuck out of me!!!! If my daughter wants holes in her body when shes older then fine but that should be your baby's choice when he or she is old enough! Its not necessary so why do it?!?!?! My daughter has eye drops for conjunctivitis just now and i actually cried the other day because she was screaming when we were holding her down out of absolute fear.... Imagine the absolute fear THEN followed by , what would seem to a baby , excruciating pain?!?!

Dont agree at all!!

Dominodonkey Thu 22-Aug-13 01:21:13

OP YANBU

Anyone who has their baby's ear pierced is superficial at best, sadistic at worst.
How could you willingly inflict pain on your child for no good reason at all?

The only excuses (I refuse to call them reasons) have been 'it's cultural' (so what, so was footbinding..) and 'so they don't have to experience the pain later' (a bizarre excuse suggesting that ear piercing is as inevitable as tooth growth).

Dominodonkey Thu 22-Aug-13 01:24:14

And the number of people who have said 'it's up to the parent's MYOB- it's legal' is actually quite terrifying. So it's none of anyone's business if people want to inflict pain on a child for no reason, is it? It's not actually illegal to (for example) give all your children chocolate but leave one out because you don't like him - doesn't make it ok and something not to judge.

MissPiggiesLeftTrotter Thu 22-Aug-13 01:26:32

If someone wants to have their child's ears pierced then that is their business. I don't agree with it and it makes my stomach churn. However, don't come complaining to me if my child accidentally gets their scarf caught on them in the playground or some other accident with your child's earrings. I think schools should ban them until 6th form.

littlemog Thu 22-Aug-13 01:28:42

The school I teach at does just that.

BlingBang Thu 22-Aug-13 02:03:02

dominodonkey - so are you saying that all these millions of parents all over the world where it is the norm are superficial or sadistic? Wouldn't do it myself to young babies or children, mostly probably because I was born in the UK and it's seen as off here. You would possibly to it yourself if you lived somewhere where it was accepted and quite normal or had been raised in that culture.

Dominodonkey Thu 22-Aug-13 03:15:46

blingbang perhaps I should have offered a third option of sheep-like'. It's not a cultural practise which is enshrined in a holy book as far as I am aware - what prevents people thinking for themselves?

Mimishimi Thu 22-Aug-13 03:33:12

YABU. It's none of your business and in our culture, we pierce early.

MissPiggiesLeftTrotter Thu 22-Aug-13 03:50:11

Perhaps someone could come on here and say why they do it in their culture and then perhaps we may not be so judgeypants. Is it to differentiate a girl from a boy as a baby? Is it a sign of wealth (gold earrings). Personally I think it is madness, but I would never pull someone up on it as it is a very touchy subject. I do think though that ear piercing salons here in the UK should not be allowed to pierce children's ears under a certain age e.g. 7 or above when the child can say if they want it or not. Personally I remember having my ears pierced when I was about 8. I can still remember the shock when the earring was shot thru my ear, the burning pain afterwards and twisting the earring in the crusty scabs. Ewwwwwwww, I need to lie down.

EmmaBemma Thu 22-Aug-13 05:24:43

"Can anyone think of a good reason for the age limit not to be the same as for tattoos?"

Tattoos are permanent, piercings aren't (usually)

PeriodMath Thu 22-Aug-13 05:34:38

Since when was "it's part of our culture" a defence for assaulting female babies?

Don't tell me piercing a hole in someone's ear when they haven't given consent isn't assault.

If you pierced my ear against my will, held me down screaming to do it, I'd be able to have you arrested.

theodorakisses Thu 22-Aug-13 06:14:24

These threads make me laugh. Nice try op, hope you get all the congratulatory pats on the back you are looking for. Get a life and learn to spell and punctuate and once you are literate you can use the search facility and then you will know, as if you didn't already, this a a tedious, smug and done to death festival of smug tedium.

Ketoile Thu 22-Aug-13 06:14:36

Is there a lexic of abreviations somewhere on mumsnet? What DD means? Sorry new here..

Ketoile Thu 22-Aug-13 06:19:59

Mutilation is a bit of a strong word for an ear pierced isnt it?
Im not found of it and find ridiculous the way baby look with jewels at an early age but it is part of some culture as well as circonsision and not a big deal

ElleBelly Thu 22-Aug-13 06:41:33

Wow, piss taking about spelling and punctuation. Little bit smug yourself to be honest? Yawn. I'm quite capable of it thank you, typos easily made when typing on phone one handed. I wasn't after pats on back and have been interested to see what other's views are, although kind of surprised how unpleasant some people can be to each other. I didn't realise it would be such a problem to post on something that's been covered before, that rules out quite a lot surely!

theodorakisses Thu 22-Aug-13 06:58:17

Threads like this are nothing but goading and you know perfectly well that anyone who doesn't agree will be attacked. Child abuse, assault? Jesus, get a life.

theodorakisses Thu 22-Aug-13 07:10:21

And saying you want to punch someone who hasn't actually done anything to hurt you is pretty bloody unpleasant.

ElleBelly Thu 22-Aug-13 07:18:47

Well she was hurting her child actually,(or paying someone else to) which yes did make me angry. As I've already said, "wanting to punch" was a little tongue in cheek, I didn't realise people were so sensitive.

mynameismskane Thu 22-Aug-13 07:25:31

I personally wouldn't do it, but I have grown up in a culture that does and had mine done when I was very young. Some people/cultures approach this differently and I doubt the mum was 'laughing' at her baby. The baby won't remember it and will be fine.

mynameismskane Thu 22-Aug-13 07:28:55

But OTT to say its 'terrifying' for a baby. I know loads of babies who have it done - I had it done - and they get over the pain very quickly. Like I said, I haven't done my daughter's ears, but don't have an issue with it really. I think it's better to wait, but in some ways, having it done when younger gets the pain out of the way and you don't remember it whereas if you are older, you definitely do remember it!

autumnsmum Thu 22-Aug-13 07:29:59

As someone who has many tattoos the parental consent thing is a myth it is eighteen and all the shops I have used insist on seeing identification which is photocopied

glossyflower Thu 22-Aug-13 07:35:40

I highly doubt the OP really wanted to punch the mother for upsetting her baby intentionally.
If some of you are picking that up and running away with it rather than the actual concern OP has then you are being very pedantic.

theodorakisses Thu 22-Aug-13 07:42:32

Idiotic goading makes me pedantic.

hackmum Thu 22-Aug-13 08:12:22

Maybe you should go to anger management sessions, theodora? All this rage can't be doing you any good.

usualsuspect Thu 22-Aug-13 08:16:55

Teenagers would do their own piercings if you made it illegal until they were 16.

Altinkum Thu 22-Aug-13 08:19:09

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

theodorakisses Thu 22-Aug-13 08:27:53

Reported.

theodorakisses Thu 22-Aug-13 08:29:21

Anger? No just amusement and a desire to allow people to have opinions without being bullied.

usualsuspect Thu 22-Aug-13 08:32:46

OP got the bunfight then...

Altinkum Thu 22-Aug-13 08:33:34

Yawn.

I see you're annoyed by my post to report it, we'll maybe think about what posting, it's people behind a screen, not just words on the screen!!!

Altinkum Thu 22-Aug-13 08:34:52

Bullied? Your the one who came on making assumptions and beig incredibly rude to the OP.

Always the victim I see never the preparator!

theodorakisses Thu 22-Aug-13 08:36:15

I agree and that's exactly why I hate goady trouble making threads like this which are designed to bully anyone who doesn't think baby ear piercing is a crime worthy of criminal charges. This, parking, feeding and sugar brings out the vilest bullies.

theodorakisses Thu 22-Aug-13 08:38:52

I don't for one minute think I have been bullied, but then I haven't said I think it isn't the biggest crime or had my culture slated like others. Calling someone a cunt isn't bullying, just a bit sad.

Altinkum Thu 22-Aug-13 08:41:05

Yes I agree but why come on and slate her writing style, it makes you look ignorant.

If you has read the thread you would have known she's new, didn't know it's been done to death, was posting on her phone, and didn't realise people in here take everything out if hand.

I fine it massively rude to pull someone's writing style up, I've been told on here that I needed to start each

Altinkum Thu 22-Aug-13 08:43:03

Post saying I'm dyslexic....

It's just rude, rude rude!!!

theodorakisses Thu 22-Aug-13 08:45:26

Ok fair enough but I stand by being rude to an op that is on a goady bullying subject. Whilst I feel like retaliating in the name calling. (Although how would I top cunt) if me using her spelling to have a go at a horrible thread that is there to upset people has hurt or upset you then I am completely willing to admit it was unfair and a low blow. I will continue, however, to refuse to back away from bullying threads.

doormat Thu 22-Aug-13 08:46:54

OP

None of ya business

ElleBelly Thu 22-Aug-13 08:53:15

I'm not bullying anyone, and I haven't been rude to individuals, and it is pathetic to have a pop at people's spelling or grammar. Anyway, lots of topics are controversial, does that mean that people shouldn't raise them in case they're seen as bullying people who have a different view? Wouldn't be much to talk about in that case.

MorrisZapp Thu 22-Aug-13 08:54:36

Ear piercing of small children is just horrible. I'm amazed it's legal.

theodorakisses Thu 22-Aug-13 08:55:04

No for sure you wanted a friendly and measured discussion and were genuinely interested to hear from people on the other side of the argument. I believe you dear.

ElleBelly Thu 22-Aug-13 08:57:19

And how are new members supposed to know what is considered a "goady" subject by others?

I got a tattoo with parental consent at 15. My mum took me so I wouldn't do it behind her back as there were loads of people tattooing from their homes.

Babies ear piercing's? Doesn't fuss me. Each to their own. I don't see it as abuse and before any assumes my child has their ears done, they don't.

I was 8 when I had mine done for my birthday.

Hippymama Thu 22-Aug-13 08:58:43

I find it quite amusing that theodorakisses has made a typo of her own in the post where she is berating the op's spelling and grammar. People in glass houses and all that....

Anyway, back to the original subject. Op, yanbu. Ear piercing is awful and unnecessary on babies.

theodorakisses Thu 22-Aug-13 09:00:45

Yes, I am so stupid. I already replied about it so get lost.

pianodoodle Thu 22-Aug-13 09:02:07

Only read first page of OP.

If I saw this, I'd know it was none of my business, and I'd know they were within their rights to do it.

I wouldn't say anything for those reasons but I'd still be appalled and probably leave so I didn't have to watch or hear baby crying afterwards.

Making a decision to hurt your baby for cosmetic reasons is repulsive to me.

glossyflower Thu 22-Aug-13 09:03:44

sp sorry to be slightly off topic here but are you in the UK where it's illegal to have tattoos under the age of 18?
Parental consent to the tattoo or not I'm surprised your mother took you along to have it rather than saying yes you can have one but when you are 18 as that's the law.
Not being critical I just can't understand it smile
The difference being in regards to OP was that you made your own choice to have a tattoo and piercing a whereas a baby can't.

Dominodonkey Thu 22-Aug-13 09:07:34

"The baby gets over the pain"

I don't doubt it but still noone on this thread has given
a proper reason for causing the pain in the first place.

Hippymama Thu 22-Aug-13 09:14:54

Now now, theodorakisses. That's not very nice... I was just pointing out that it's a bit rich to criticise someone's spelling and grammar when you are also making typos in your posts. If you're going to use something like that as your 'argument' in a discussion, then it is a good idea to make sure you are also blameless in that respect.

glossy My mum took me as she would have rather have been there than me go to the people doing tattoos in their own home in our area like some others had done. Theirs obviously looked terrible and a few got infected. Mine didn't and is fine nearly 8 years on.

I nagged and nagged and she allowed it as did the tattoo parlour. I'm glad my mum allowed me and took me as I could have ended up with a right mess or worse. 15 year olds know best you see grin

I have 2 younger sisters and mums waiting for them to say they want their ears doing.

But each to their own. I have a boy so no ear piercing issues here. I am yet to see a baby carrying on like people describe. I have seen babies/toddlers having ears done and haven't seen the reaction people have described yet.

Wuxiapian Thu 22-Aug-13 09:34:16

Ear piercing on babies/young children, to me, is abuse - the child has no say.

There should be a lower age limit of 12.

Lavidaenrosa Thu 22-Aug-13 09:43:08

Mind your own business. Mine were done when I was 1 day old. Cultural thing, done by a nurse in the hospital where I was born. I'm glad my parents did it early because I don't remember the pain.

Altinkum Thu 22-Aug-13 09:47:39

Theo, I actually never called you a cunt,' please read my post correctly.

Amrapaali Thu 22-Aug-13 09:51:42

domino you are looking for a reason that does not exist. It is tradition. Pure and simple. Generations of my family have had their ears pierced on their 1st birthday along with a religious ritual. It IS in our religious books, that go back nearly 1500 years.

Most traditions start in religion.

And posters concerned about the pain, who think it is barbaric- i really don't understand this. Most babies do not like being trussed up in scratchy, so called pretty clothes, yet we do this all the time at parties, communions, weddings...is a baby's discomfort on a sliding scale? A short, sharp pain that lasts for a few seconds is worse than an hour of irritation in itchy polyester?

ringaringarosy Thu 22-Aug-13 09:51:56

i think its wrong to do it until they are old enough to actually want it,and actually understand it stings a bit.nit sure what age that is exactly but my dd is 3 and i dont feel she is old enough to understand that yet,she has asked a couple of times but i just told her shes too small and it hurts,but she can get themdone when shes older if she wants to.

ringaringarosy Thu 22-Aug-13 09:53:01

amrapaalie i dont think you can compare putting a baby in a cute outfit to piercing a childs skin

confused

Amrapaali Thu 22-Aug-13 09:58:01

The comparison may be facile ring but I stand by my point. And comparing pierced ears to FGM, well...!!

StephenFrySaidSo Thu 22-Aug-13 10:06:57

Umm- we dont all put our dcs in scratchy clothing. Some people actually think about what they are buying and how it will feel on their baby. Id say people who get upset about ear piercing are actually more likely to think about it actually.

pinkyredrose Thu 22-Aug-13 11:16:41

SP you were tattooed illegally. No decent tattoo artist would risk their license tattooing a minor.

It's 18 by law no exceptions.

Well it happened and no harm done. Rather that way then the way some people went.

FreudiansSlipper Thu 22-Aug-13 11:33:18

abuse abuse wtf some need to read up on what abuse is and stop getting so hysterical

its really is not such a big deal a little hole in the ear lobe, nasty if it gets infected but other than that some think it looks nice others do not and of course others shout out chav hmm yes lets call a child a chav how nice

pianodoodle Thu 22-Aug-13 11:35:55

Doing it for religious reasons doesn't make it any different a procedure than doing it because you think it looks nice.

Amrapaali Thu 22-Aug-13 11:50:36

freudian you should know by now, chav is MN's most used word. Followed closely by the words, Daily Mail.

piano that may be your opinion, thinking religious and aesthetic reasons are one and the same. But what is astounding is the fact you pronounce this opinion of yours as indisputable fact.

What smug people abound on Mumsnet...

FreudiansSlipper Thu 22-Aug-13 11:57:27

do not forget the never ending mentioning of how they shop at john lewis and waitrose

i had mine done at 3, girls in my family have all had their ears pierced young and some their nose too, not as young though

pianodoodle Thu 22-Aug-13 11:59:59

*
piano that may be your opinion, thinking religious and aesthetic reasons are one and the same. But what is astounding is the fact you pronounce this opinion of yours as indisputable fact*

pianodoodle Thu 22-Aug-13 12:01:28

piano that may be your opinion, thinking religious and aesthetic reasons are one and the same. But what is astounding is the fact you pronounce this opinion of yours as indisputable fact

Posted too soon.

No, that isn't my opinion if you read back. I don't think the reasons are one and the same. They are different reasons, but the pain of the procedure is the same.

Amrapaali Thu 22-Aug-13 12:08:20

Aah, yes. Thanks for clearing that piano

But I still don't understand- the pain is the same, so you recommend the procedure is unnecessary? For religious OR aesthetic reasons?

BitBewildered Thu 22-Aug-13 12:12:56

My ears were pierced when I was 3mo. The holes aren't level or placed equally on the lobes, so I can't wear studs or some small hoops or drops. I won't be having DD's ears done for that reason, leaving aside any opinion I have regarding children with piercings.

BlingBang Thu 22-Aug-13 12:14:38

I used to look at it as just cheap, nasty and tacky and the parents were a bit thick as I was looking at it through snooty UK eyes. Listened to folk who explained it was normal and somewhat expected In their country and culture so while I still don't like the practise, might discuss and not agree with it - I don't judge all parents who do it as being unthinking, cruel abusers. I have friends who have done it to their babies/ little children and they are intelligent and loving, they just see it in another way due to their upbringing.

PeriodMath Thu 22-Aug-13 12:14:56

Those saying they get over the pain very quickly and don't remember it - wtf?

I'm sure there are lots of abusive things one could do to a baby that they wouldn't remember in later life - does that make it ok?

Can somebody please explain why it is acceptable to hurt a baby like this but not an adult? I'm serious. Please tell me why it would be a crime to hold down a screaming adult and puncture their ears against their will but not a child?

Is it because if you don't hear the word "no" you can just presume consent? hmm

pianodoodle Thu 22-Aug-13 12:17:29

I think it's unnecessary for any reason because it hurts.

I'm not religious though so my feeling on it is just personal preference.

Obviously people need to go through certain unpleasant procedures for medical reasons and that's different altogether.

I had mine done when I was quite young but old enough to have asked and known what I wanted etc...

SamG76 Thu 22-Aug-13 12:28:17

BlingBlang - it's nice to hear that someone has actually reconsidered their views after listening to other people. A genuinely liberal attitude is most welcome on MN, and a pleasant contrast to the idea that everything we don't like should be banned.

BlingBang Thu 22-Aug-13 12:29:57

Why do most parents grow their girls hair long? It takes longer to care for, can cause discomfort when brushing untangling (do your little ones ever struggle or grumble when getting their hair washed/brushed/put into a style), it can be more dangerous than short hair as it can be caught up in things, is harder to treat if they have nits. Why do so many make their little girls lives more faffy and uncomfortable when their is no need and it starts usually at the whim of the parents.

Crazy comparison but why do you make little girls hair care harder and more time consuming than mat do for boys - it's unnecessary after all, and all about culture, vanity and society norms.

FreudiansSlipper Thu 22-Aug-13 12:33:49

good point Bling

IceBeing Thu 22-Aug-13 13:16:14

It isn't actually the pain involved that really bothers me about piercing babies ears...it is the assumption that the babies body is the parents to do with as they please.

Your child isn't a toy or a fashion accessory, it is an actual sentient human being.

Sure, as parents we have to make decisions on medical procedures etc. which we do as best we can.

But ear piercing does not fit into that category any more than tattooing would.

I actually can't understand anyone who thinks they have the right to modify their child's body for non-medical reasons without the child's informed consent.

I would really like to hear an argument from someone who thinks they do have that right though...and then I would like to hear why they don't think that I have the right to modify their body without their permission.

glossyflower Thu 22-Aug-13 13:20:07

ice thats a good point but (just playing devils advocate) what about the babies with misshapen heads and so have to wear uncomfortable helmets? In a lot of cases (not all) it doesn't affect the child medically just cosmetically.

But I agree. Ear piercing should be left until the child is old enough to make the choice for themselves.

Alisvolatpropiis Thu 22-Aug-13 13:25:39

I had my ears pierced before I was quite 2. I don't remember having it done obviously. Of all the piercings I have had since, they are the only ones that have never caused me a problem strangely.

I think times have changed though, it is more uncommon and considered less acceptable than it was in 1990.

I don't think it is abusive though.

theodorakisses Thu 22-Aug-13 13:28:54

What about ear correction? Why subject your child to bullying and embarrassment when a 20 minute procedure can correct it? I didn't get it done when I was young and my life was hell. Mine did, all before 3 because they sadly inherited it from me.

glossyflower Thu 22-Aug-13 13:34:49

theodora what do you mean by ear correction? An otoplasty? I had otoplasty and it wasn't a 20 min procedure it was a 3 day stay in hospital with surgery under a general anaesthetic.
(I was 13 at the time and it was my decision to have it done)

IceBeing Thu 22-Aug-13 13:39:36

theo actually I also think it is pretty morally destitute to tackle the problem of bullying by trying to make everyone look the same.

Bullying doesn't happen because you look different, it happens because some people are bullies. They need to change.

I was bullied as a a kid...had nothing to do with appearance....

IceBeing Thu 22-Aug-13 13:44:33

I admit the line isn't clear. This is where I would put it.

Cosmetic surgery that helps a child functionally
Cosmetic surgery that corrects a major deviation from standard physiology that is non functionally relevant

----- correcting large birth marks etc.--------

surgery to meet the parents own personal aesthetic taste (eg. ear piercing)
tattooing 'mommies little fashion accessory' across forehead.

theodorakisses Thu 22-Aug-13 13:56:43

Sorry but I just don't agree. I looked horrible and wish I had had it done younger, I was on the waiting list for 11 years.

BlingBang Thu 22-Aug-13 13:57:13

What about the hair thing. Why do those with little girls make them have the added time, discomfort and added danger of long hair when they don't have to. Do your little ones ever struggle and even cry when you are detailing/ brushing hair etc? Why do you make your little girls have all that added time and discomfort over boys who usually have short hair.

theodorakisses Thu 22-Aug-13 13:57:44

And ours took 20 minutes and were home within a few hours.

BlingBang Thu 22-Aug-13 14:00:46

A few seconds ear pearcing to a small baby is probably less stress, hassle, discomfort, time and possibly even tears to those who like to tease and style their little girls hair.

theodorakisses Thu 22-Aug-13 14:00:56

And about the long hair, I agree. In our case the decision was taken from us anyway because said hair was removed with nail scissors by it's wearer. I know so many people who don't let their girls and, just as often actually, boys, have their "cute long hair" cut short even though they hate the maintenance. I have also encountered loads of people on here who won't let their boys have their long hair cut because they (the mum) like it.

IceBeing Thu 22-Aug-13 14:05:26

theo how can you possible agree with the parent over-ruling the child on hair being wrong, but think that it is okay to make permanent modifications?

Any time the parent is giving their aesthetic taste more weight than the childs is wrong...surely it is more wrong if the child can't even undo the damage once they escape from parental control?

IceBeing Thu 22-Aug-13 14:06:21

It is all part an parcel of the horrible 'my child, my rules' attitude.

Children aren't toys!

theodorakisses Thu 22-Aug-13 14:08:56

Because it is so obviously different. Ear piercing is one thing but correcting something abnormal is different. You may not agree with me but I am hardly a headband putteroner, ear piercing, gelled up hair on a 1 day old etc person. By the same token, I find the people who force their kids to have long hair or gelled mohicans pretty repellant but I don't get very het up, I may walk past and think it's a bit shit. But abuse? No.
I was made to wear Clothkits, that was pretty shit.

IceBeing Thu 22-Aug-13 14:11:14

theo did you misread my question? I was asking why you would have more of a problem with parents forcing their kids into impractical / painful hair dos than piercing their ears?

IceBeing Thu 22-Aug-13 14:11:40

Ah I see how that happened...it was because I wasn't clear...

BlingBang Thu 22-Aug-13 14:12:27

I think we are just exploring the bigger picture of what could be considered cruel and unnecessary depending on how you view things. Do you think it might be possible that unnecessary hair care could actually be more stress and discomfort over all and in the long run that a seconds discomfort that piercing causes a baby?

I only have boys with sensible no faffing short hair and wouldn't pierce anyway so I am over smug and obviously the best, least cruel parent.

glossyflower Thu 22-Aug-13 14:13:03

theodora maybe we had different procedures then I don't know. And 11 years on the waiting list?! Blimey. That could be a regional issue, I waited just under a year fully expecting it would be a couple of years.
I agree, it was horrible I'm pleased I got mine done.

autumnsmum Thu 22-Aug-13 14:22:54

About my child my rules surely children need rules and guidance for their safety

IceBeing Thu 22-Aug-13 14:23:56

indeed...but since when does having their ears pierced increase a childs safety?

theodorakisses Thu 22-Aug-13 14:25:30

and I don't really get het up about either ear piercing or crappy hairstyles. I don't think it's abuse. I actually do think that parents can have control over what happens to their children. I bet there are more kids who would use their so called "informed consent" to get their ears pierced against their parents wishes that there are people who have babies ears pierced. Eek, maybe even a mn person's child would use their informed consent to get ears pierced, drink friut shoots and wear "common" clothes.

Ghanagirl Thu 22-Aug-13 14:26:13

We all make choices for our children, it's not illegal and although it's painful for a very short time so is having immunisations. I know imms are for medical reasons but it's still a choice. I think a lot of the attitude towards piercing is snobbery and prejudice, ie in the UK it was seen as a working class therefore less desirable thing to do and where it's the cultural norm India Africa etc, well what do these people know all women over there are oppressed or objectified, it's an arrogant attitude made worse by the idea that "punching" the mother is acceptable that wouldnt traumatise the baby!

Airwalk79 Thu 22-Aug-13 14:26:46

I too would have been sickened. Just why?? Would anyone think that's a good look even if you take out the pain thing, it looks awful.

girliefriend Thu 22-Aug-13 14:29:27

I haven't read all 14 pages but op I agree yanbu.

I would feel the same if i saw it being done and thank God I never had, the thought of it makes me feel sick. How you can deliberately inflict unnecessary pain on your beautiful baby - who trusts you implicitly - is totally beyond my comprehension.

I do appreciate that in some cultures it is totally normal (Spain and South America come to mind) but that doesn't make it right. FGM is the cultural norm in many countries but that doesn't make it any less barbaric.

FreudiansSlipper Thu 22-Aug-13 14:32:24

my child my rules is never a term that i use do not feel the need to set out rules

i just do not get het up about other peoples choices unless it is abusive and ear piercing is not

i decided to not cut my sons hair short. most boys have shorter hair i have made that decision for him i did not ask his consent i prefer it and now he likes it. his school wants boys to have shorter hair but have given up on that as many parents ignore this rule

people do not give it that much thought, they may have it done as they like the look, maybe tradition. its a little hole in the ear lobe that is all it is not abuse it is not done to cause harm or to control a child in any way

BlingBang Thu 22-Aug-13 14:33:45

So will you inflict unnecessary, time consuming, possibly more dangerous hairstyles on any girls you might have? Why not just cut all hair for kids short if we are talking about their comfort etc.

Ghanagirl Thu 22-Aug-13 14:33:49

It's nothing like FGM, get a grip, it's cultural normal in lots of countries, being White and middle-class doesn't give you the right to tell others how to raise their children!

FreudiansSlipper Thu 22-Aug-13 14:33:58

and as for comparing it FGM how stupid go and read look up about what that is and why it is done

Airwalk79 Thu 22-Aug-13 14:34:43

I too would have been sickened. Just why?? Would anyone think that's a good look even if you take out the pain thing, it looks awful.

Ghanagirl Thu 22-Aug-13 14:35:33

FreudiansSlipper, well said!

BlingBang Thu 22-Aug-13 14:35:37

Air walk - you have probably been conditioned to think it looks awful (jst your opinion) just as others are conditioned to think it looks good.

littlemog Thu 22-Aug-13 14:38:14

It looks absolutely terrible. Nasty. I always feel sorry for the children and wonder about the motives of the parents.

Ghanagirl Thu 22-Aug-13 14:44:02

Littlemog you probably look down on those who are from different social or ethnic group from you so I would feel sorry for YOUR children

Amrapaali Thu 22-Aug-13 15:41:22

Ghanagirl, you are fighting a losing battle. Just walk away from this thread. It is just not worth it.

There have been many idiots posters upthread who are coming out all bleeding heart and just don't want to see the issue in a sensible, sensitive light.

PeriodMath Thu 22-Aug-13 16:26:26

Do you mean posters who don't agree with you?

Tubemole1 Thu 22-Aug-13 16:48:12

I agree there should be a minimum age, suggest eight?

There are some very extreme views on here. To defend and attack. My view is the child should be old enough to keep own ears clean and be able to look after the earrings themselves. Also should be old enough to know how much it hurts to have done.

I had mine done aged eight in a jewellers near where I used to live. I didn't keep wearing earrings because a lot of them made my earlobes itchy,even gold ones, so now they are virtually closed up. I'm in my mid-30s now.

BlueShirtBlueTie Thu 22-Aug-13 16:56:48

I'm not a fan of babies getting ears pierced and I certainly wouldn't do it, however I disagree with people who say things like that it should be illegal under 10/under 12. I was 6 when I got my ears pierced which I think was a good age. If I'd have had to wait until I was 10 or 12 I doubt I would have got them done.

Amrapaali Thu 22-Aug-13 17:09:22

No periodmath just posters who say its vile, nasty or cruel, without taking into consideration, long standing traditions outside the UK.

And the only talk of tradition has descended into FGM and circumcision. While it DOES seem to be the next logical step, people should also understand ear piercing cannot be just neatly classified as good/bad.

RabbitIssue Thu 22-Aug-13 17:17:21

I don't think anyone is comparing ear piercing with FGM, they are saying that if you say ;it's cultural' then that's a crap 'reason' as it could be the answer to FGM or footbinding for example. These are/were both 'cultural' but no one defends them.

So by saying 'oh my god!!! ear piercing isn't the same as FGM!!!' you are simply demolishing a straw man.

RabbitIssue Thu 22-Aug-13 17:20:20

Amrapaali - should we bring back footbinding then? That had a long tradition outside the UK. So does bull fighting, cock fighting, bear baiting etc (latter two in the UK too) so shall we reintroduce those?

Tradition does not equal right.

And why can't it be neatly described as good or bad? It's not difficult, negative - pain, shock, no consent, poss scarring, poss infection etc etc
positive - ermm...

MrsOakenshield Thu 22-Aug-13 17:26:49

but Amrapaali, none of the defenders of ear piercing (the Ear Defenders??) have, to my mind, addressed the fact that, if a human being of older age - yourself, for example, or maybe your granny - was held down, screaming in many cases, to have a hole punched into their anatomy that they they have not given their consent for, which is not for any medical reason. That would be assault, and the perpetrator and anyone involved in faciliating this, would be slung in prison.

But it's fine for a parent to request, and an untrained Claire's empoloyee to do, this to a baby? Whatever your reasoning, surely, if you go down this route, you have to address the fact that you have violated, or at the very least ignored, your baby's body autonomy. An autonomy that an adult would take for granted - I take it you wouldn't best pleased if your mum had your ear pierced without your consent, as an adult?

I couldn't give a shiny shite about religion, 'culture', tradition, class, whatever. It's wrong without consent. And I find it mind-boggling that people need this explaining.

FreudiansSlipper Thu 22-Aug-13 17:27:37

but what are the reasons for foot binding, fgm they are to control women it is done knowing it causes pain for many many years, it is or was done so that these controlled women were marrying material for men

ear piercing is not about control, it is not about causing pain and taking away freedom or feelings

Dominodonkey Thu 22-Aug-13 17:27:38

yy rabbit

but apparently anyone who doesn't think sticking holes in children is absolutely fine is an idiotic bleeding heart....

doublemuvver Thu 22-Aug-13 17:33:58

my dd had her ears pierced last week.she's 5 1/2 and she had it done in dh's country where she is currently on holiday. Ideally she'd have waited a few more years but in dh culture it is the norm. Plus it was nice that DD's grandmother was able to take her seeing as she only sees her once a year. DD is thrilled and it didn't hurt. All good in my book

RabbitIssue Thu 22-Aug-13 17:49:09

Is it not a control issue then? When you are controlling what happens to another's body, altering it for no medical need? Or pain, it is painful. Or feelings? The child has no say in whether they want piercings or not, their feelings are overridden.

theodorakisses Thu 22-Aug-13 17:54:49

I do agree about Claire's people. I am currently offshore with mainly Indian and Arabic employees who have mainly had their girl's ears pierced but always has been done by a doctor not a teenage girl. In India the least qualified person is a pharmacist.

FreudiansSlipper Thu 22-Aug-13 18:08:29

so every decision you make regarding your child is about control

of course not, fgm/foot binding is terribly painful its restricts women that is why it was and still often done

ear piercing at times may cause an infection which can be painful and is not nice, the piercing can be painful (a quick pain) but it is not designed to restrict women or to cause them

BlingBang Thu 22-Aug-13 18:09:33

So who has little girls with long hair and why did you make them grow it long when it would be better for them to have short hair?

Rooners Thu 22-Aug-13 18:14:49

Coming to this late, I'd just like to say that what is described in the OP is, imho, abusive.

As you were.

EeTraceyluv Thu 22-Aug-13 18:16:02

God I wish could I get my dd to have short hair. She loves it long - and yes it is a tedious pan in the arse to have to brush it and detangle it. I would love her to agree to have it cut.

BlingBang Thu 22-Aug-13 18:23:16

So why do parents insist on imposing on girls (some boys) as soon as their hair starts to grow? Babies and toddlers probably couldn't care less and I would imagine hate the extra faff. sure some cry and even struggle going through their hair routine.

Amrapaali Thu 22-Aug-13 18:23:17

Don't we all control our DCs in some way or the other? Physically, mentally, you may not even think of it as control. If, hypothetically, your DD were to wear a full face of make up at say, 10 yeArs, would you not put your foot down? Is that not control?

And I don't understand this issue of consent. I honestly don't. If a child grows up in a smoking enviorment, do the smokers in the house ask for consent?

I am not advocating anyone to strap down their children to get their ears pierced. As I said upthread, with my daughter, I had to go away and come back another day, because the first time she was too distressed. Parents should just use their judgement and discretion. Shouting abuse is a bit idiotic.

littlemog Thu 22-Aug-13 18:48:42