Would you leave your baby unattended in their buggy

(1000 Posts)
noblegiraffe Tue 20-Aug-13 13:17:02

...while you use the loo?

On another thread I mentioned not being able to get a buggy into a small cubicle and the suggestion was to leave baby outside.

Would I be overly precious in thinking 'No, I wouldn't do that'?

pianodoodle Tue 20-Aug-13 13:18:24

I wouldn't do it either.

MrsHoarder Tue 20-Aug-13 13:18:53

I wouldn't fully shut the door so I could see ds. I wait for the end cubicle to do this.

BrokenSunglasses Tue 20-Aug-13 13:18:55

I wouldn't (and didn't) do it either.

MissMuesli Tue 20-Aug-13 13:19:01

I go into disabled loo live rurally, haven't cuaghtenup with "family friendly facilities" yet, awaits the backlash

BuskersCat Tue 20-Aug-13 13:19:26

I choose an end cubicle, and leave the door open if I cant fit Dd in with me.

waltzingmathilda Tue 20-Aug-13 13:20:00

Yes. how many child snatchers can you immediately think of?

SillyTilly123 Tue 20-Aug-13 13:20:04

No i wouldn't. Luckily the toilets in town have one big corner cubicle which can fit a buggy in so i would just wait for that one to become free, or go in the baby changing room (theres a loo in there) if baby needed changing or sometimes even if she didnt

KD0706 Tue 20-Aug-13 13:20:33

I either use the disabled loo or I go into an end cubicle and leave the door open.

I wouldn't leave either of mine (3.5 and 18 months) alone while I went to the loo

FrigginRexManningDay Tue 20-Aug-13 13:20:55

I wouldn't in my local shopping centre cause it would be robbed. I use the toilet in McDonalds which has an extra large cubicle.

Pigsmummy Tue 20-Aug-13 13:21:28

Normally use the disabled loo if have buggy or would leave the cubicle door open if there isn't one.

noblegiraffe Tue 20-Aug-13 13:21:53

Walzing - Thompson and Venables sprung immediately to mind. I'm sure there are others.

FrigginRexManningDay Tue 20-Aug-13 13:22:16

The buggy would be robbed,not the baby.

littleducks Tue 20-Aug-13 13:23:34

Yes and pee quickly! I might position the buggy so I could see wheels under door.

But tbh the situation rarely occurred the babies happy usually needed changing far more frequently than I needed the toilet so I would often be in a disabled/family toilet to use the changing mat and so just went then.

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 13:24:18

No. Never ever ever.
Not for a moment.

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 13:24:52

I would leave the door open if need be.

ImNotABarbieGirl Tue 20-Aug-13 13:24:52

Its never been an issue luckily. When dd was still in the pram id just use the family toilet. I don't think I Would but havnt been in that sitation so who knows?? I wouldn't judge someone for doing it and Would probably offer to stand with the baby outside if I saw it happening.

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 13:25:50

noblegiraffe exactly what I thought.
Oh God.

I would in my local supermarket (not at the motorway services), but that doesn't mean that YOU should. On the other hand, I'd use the disabled cubicle if it was available.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 20-Aug-13 13:29:57

Nope

KatoPotato Tue 20-Aug-13 13:30:55

noble remember you have to leave them outside and talk to them as you're taking a shit! 'Nayveeeeeee bluuuuueeee'

Dorris83 Tue 20-Aug-13 13:31:32

No I wouldn't - I'd use the disabled loo or just suffer rather than leave him. I guard against the worst happening, even if it is very very unlikely. He's just too precious

HandMini Tue 20-Aug-13 13:32:04

I'd want to see at least part of the buggy - so door slightly open (I don't care if someone sees me on the bog!).

I wouldn't let the buggy be out of my sight.

sweetestcup Tue 20-Aug-13 13:32:09

Waits for thread to descent into paedophile/child snatching hysteria now.....

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Tue 20-Aug-13 13:32:35

You just need one of these bad boys

Or take the baby out of the pushchair and put in sling/hold, while you go. Or leave door open a bit.

HandMini Tue 20-Aug-13 13:32:54

Tho I just remembered this morning I parked baby outside my front door in buggy, then ran back in to switch the kitchen light off. Wrong?

K8Middleton Tue 20-Aug-13 13:32:55

Yes. And I have left her outside nursery at pick up time to collect Ds.

But I'm not a faffer in the loo. In and out in 30 seconds and I can see wheels or hear baby. Or the old dears clucking at her.

KellyElly Tue 20-Aug-13 13:33:51

No. I wouldn't leave a baby or small child unattended period. Why would you even take the risk.

FitzgeraldProtagonist Tue 20-Aug-13 13:34:12

Meh, just leave door open. Or they chat to me through door so loud nowadays I know they are there "Mummmeee is that your willy??"

When next one arrives, will leave door open again and wave merrily to passers by!

K8Middleton Tue 20-Aug-13 13:34:13

Thomson and Venables? Jeez. Hysterical much?

SolomanDaisy Tue 20-Aug-13 13:34:38

I've done it once, in a hospital when a naice woman and her mother asked if I'd like them to keep an eye on him. He was v young. Since then I have worked out where the baby change and toilet facilities are in places I go regularly, used an end cubicle with the door open, had him in a sling and put a disposable mat on the floor for him. Now I would leave the buggy outside and take him in with me if I needed to.

I would and did mine were younger, really who is going to steal a baby in a toilet, mind you im also the bad mum who sent her boy into a mens toilet alone at 6, as he did not want to go into the girs so what do I know .

HarryandJess Tue 20-Aug-13 13:35:44

Not if I can help it. Have felt very uncomfortable when I have had to and left the door slighly ajar. I like places that have a grown up toilet in the nappy changing area (and space for buggy). Unfortunately they only seem to be in large shopping centres (where they also cater for breastfeeding etc). If the baby changing station is in a toilet that is also for disabled use I will use that at the same time

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Tue 20-Aug-13 13:35:56

I handed my 19m DS to a woman at the pool the other week, to hold while I went for a wee. He looks like a little cherub and people love giving him a squeeze. <neglectful>

HandMini Tue 20-Aug-13 13:36:59

Oh and I do ask other mothers to keep an eye on baby in pram while I take DD1 to the loo, eg, at toddler groups. I guess my assessment of the risk of someone snatching DD2 in that situation is that's its so low as to be negligible.

I would take the baby out of the pram and balance him on my knee while I weed. Not so much because I would think someone would take him mine would have screamed bloody murder if a stranger had touched them, like a proximity alarm but because they'd get bored or frightened.

Once I had more than one I'd leave the walking one with the pram and call through for regular updates/continue the conversation through the door.

It also helps that we've had complicated brakes on our prams, so it would be impossible for them to roll away or be taken away by someone else.

GetYourSocksOff Tue 20-Aug-13 13:37:33

Oh I've just posted on that thread about that.

No, I wouldn't. It worries me that people might read that thread and decide that it's what they should be doing.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Tue 20-Aug-13 13:39:20

Why would it worry you. What is the likelihood that someone is going to steal your baby be either getting the pram out of the toilets, or faffing with the buckles and getting them out of the pram, in the less than a minute it takes you to have a wee? Seriously? Some very odd perceptions of risk about these days. Just leave the door open an inch.

RawCoconutMacaroon Tue 20-Aug-13 13:40:30

I would never do this. Disabled loo (as that usually doubles as baby change facilities), or "parent and child cubicle" if there was one.
In extremis, the end cubicle with door open would do.

Although its not so much "stranger danger", I'd be more concerned that my DC would manage to unclip the harness or otherwise partially slip out of the harness and hang himself. A relative who works with the police has been called to a couple of such tragedies (young child left to sleep in buggy), so I never let them sleep in a buggy either, unless in my view, it only takes seconds for a strangulation tragedy to happen.

Thompson and Venables are one instance we can name in what, twenty years? That in itself suggests to me it's very rare. Most abducted children are taken by family members.

BlingBang Tue 20-Aug-13 13:41:01

Would usually use the bigger cubicles if available but probably have left baby in a pram now and then if I felt comfortable. People used to do it all the time, outside shops etc.

MiaowTheCat Tue 20-Aug-13 13:41:36

End cubicle, buggy parked right up facing the door, door open, piss fast. Quite often the story of my life with a double buggy.

Most places locally share the baby change with the disabled loo so in those cases I do just use that.

Actually - while we're on this... the one that's the biggest offender of forgetting parents with pushchairs need to pee and get in the toilet cubicles... our local kiddicare.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Tue 20-Aug-13 13:41:37

Is a child going to hang themselves in the time it takes to get trousers down, have a wee, wipe and get trousers back up? Really?

WestieMamma Tue 20-Aug-13 13:41:44

I've just walked back from the shop through the local nursery grounds (open access to anyone). All the prams were lined up outside against the wall while the littlies had their afternoon naps. Staff were inside having their lunch. But I'm in Sweden where this is normal.

froken Tue 20-Aug-13 13:42:08

If ds was asleep I'd leave him outside but if he was awake I wouldn't because he might feel worried if he can't see mummy.

I leave ds outside shops/cafes to sleep.

DeWe Tue 20-Aug-13 13:42:11

I did it with all three of mine. I would put the buggy so I could see the wheel clearly, and watch if it moves. None of mine would have been got out of the buggy by a stranger without wriggling, even at quite a young age, so I reckoned that the chance of someone taking them out of the buggy without it moving was so low as to be negligable.

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 20-Aug-13 13:42:19

No. Therefore all mothers with children should always use disabled toilet meaning it is constantly full.

This is what you are aiming for with your thread about a thread, yes?

BlingBang Tue 20-Aug-13 13:43:03

Did have a woman undo the clips and let my toddler out of his buggy at a market once though when I was speaking to the stall holder. Was surprised to see him dash past me.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Tue 20-Aug-13 13:43:10

Honestly <awful parent alert> I would be more concerned that someone would nick my bag or purse from the pushchair, than I would that they would steal my child though he would start screaming POP! POP! as soon as someone went near the buckles anyway

JedwardScissorhands Tue 20-Aug-13 13:46:23

I wouldn't leave them. I use the disabled toilet. Failing that I leave the buggy and sit the baby on my knee.

I think there is a lot of MN hysteria about not 'abusing' disabled facilities which simply does not reflect RL attitudes. Also that life should be as difficult as possible if you have children, so as to prove that the world doesn't revolve around your children.

JedwardScissorhands Tue 20-Aug-13 13:47:52

What was her reason for undoing the straps blingblang?! That's crazy!

GetYourSocksOff Tue 20-Aug-13 13:49:43

Bugger, it just ate my reply and things have moved on. Anyway...

Hopalongon Because I don't want to wee with the door open. And because if I was going to nick a baby, I wouldn't mess around with buckles. Not that I've given it a great deal of thought hmm And because this shit happens. Not often, because we are far more aware of potential, tiny risks. But if it did, I would never get over it. And because it's not just that, like someone else said, I don't want them to be scared if I can help it.

It's not a big deal, and if you've spotted someone you trust or you're at a toddler group, that's making a sensible risk assessment. But as a general rule, no, I wouldn't want people to feel they HAD to leave their baby if they wanted to go to the toilet. Which doesn't always take 30 seconds.

maja00 Tue 20-Aug-13 13:49:57

Yes, don't really see the risk confused

sparechange Tue 20-Aug-13 13:50:54

Just out of interest, what do the 'no' camp think of this practice - babies left outside cafes to sleep while parents have coffee inside:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21537988

RawCoconutMacaroon Tue 20-Aug-13 13:51:28

Hopalong, read what I actually said - the hanged children had been left to sleep in buggies. But it only takes about 8 seconds of strangulation pressure on a child's neck for them to lose consciousness. People are fairly alert to the danger of window cords, not so much to other strangulation risks. The above may be rare, but less rare than being snatched and murdered by a stranger... Why run the risk of either though?

FannyFifer Tue 20-Aug-13 13:53:21

I feel like mumsnet is some sort of parallel universe sometimes.

If I need a wee & child in buggy, I go into the ladies, park buggy beside cubicle I'm going into, do a wee & come back out. No big deal.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Tue 20-Aug-13 13:55:42

You know what's really common? Children being killed in car accidents. But we make hundreds of unnecessary journeys every year. How many children were snatched from outside toilets in the last year?

sparklingstars Tue 20-Aug-13 13:56:31

No. I'd wait until I got home or use the disabled toilet, though I'd most likely just wait.

Meglet Tue 20-Aug-13 13:56:35

No. I used the disabled loo, especially when I was pregnant as I could hardly get into a normal cubicle.

How could anyone go to the toilet with the door open, with strangers walking past confused.

usualsuspect Tue 20-Aug-13 13:57:24

I always left mine outside the cubicles in their buggies when I went for a wee.

I thought everyone did.

TooExtraImmatureCheddar Tue 20-Aug-13 13:58:46

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

BlingBang Tue 20-Aug-13 13:59:19

Jedward, don't know it was a different country and I imagine she wanted to speak to him or hold him as he really stood out. She just walked on while I was busy trying to catch him.

usualsuspect Tue 20-Aug-13 14:00:21

Mind you I'm constantly amazed at the things I think are normal that are frowned upon on MN.

::memories resurface of sudden and explosive diarrhoea when pushing baby DS2 in pram and 3yo DS1 trotting along behind, poo flooding my knickers and trickling down my leg, and being monumentally thankful that the ladies' cubicle at the park was also the disabled cubicle, with space for the pram and the toddler and me, since it took ten minutes to subside and then another ten to clean up enough to walk the ten minutes home::

Not all loo stops are thirty seconds.

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 14:02:29

MN really is great.
It's one place where you can be sure of ridicule for having any kind of protective feelings or cautiousness about your baby.

From other mothers.

usualsuspect Tue 20-Aug-13 14:02:36

In ye olden days my mum left us outside shops. I won't mention the time she left my sister outside a shop and went home without her.

chattychattyboomba Tue 20-Aug-13 14:02:59

I have actually used the loo with the buggy outside the cubicle with the door open for all the world to see, i didn't give a monkey's bum- because the idiot toilet attendant refused to unlock the accessible loos for me (not disabled)... Really riles me up- but I thought well- when you gotta go you gotta go!

GetYourSocksOff Tue 20-Aug-13 14:03:15

Hopalongon You see that's true. But at least I can see them....

I'm interested now. Because I've never seen somebody leave their baby outside in RL, maybe I've just not been looking, but it's never been an issue. Either the nappy change has been in disabled so I go too, or there's a family room, or more often than not I'm with somebody, or I hold it, or.... It's just not something I've ever done. And once they're a bit older they just come in with you so it's not an issue for long.

But I wouldn't feel comfortable in a lot of places, I'd rather find an alternative to leaving them outside. I guess it's a personal thing.

noblegiraffe Tue 20-Aug-13 14:03:41

Fanjo, no, I wasn't aiming for any more with this thread than to find out whether other mums leave their babies. It's not a thread about a thread (which I carefully considered) because I said nothing about disabled facilities, which was the subject of the other thread. It was merely something which came up on that thread tangentially. To make the other thread about this subject would be to derail it.

No sinister motive, just genuine curiosity.

LtGreggs Tue 20-Aug-13 14:04:22

I often did this. Am astounded that so many people say they would definitely not.

I've also asked other people to keep an eye on buggy while I go. And have often offered to keep an eye on other people's buggy / trolley / kids for similar reasons. I thought that was a normal part of everyday give & take.

(NB - this is in London & central Scotland. Not some rural idyll!)

Agree with emily.

I also enjoy the competitive neglect threads. [:D]

usualsuspect Tue 20-Aug-13 14:07:24

Neglect now is it?

Do you feel sorry for my children?

I leave outside as there will be usually a lot of other people in there and my baby would scream although dd2 would probably hold up her arms for a hug and I would, if necessary, as the toilets were quite empty, take baby in and leave pushchair out. I wouldn't use a disabled toilet unless it had a baby changing facility in it and I needed to change the baby, then I'd go at the same time as it would take a few seconds at most, but otherwise no.

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 20-Aug-13 14:08:06

This thread proves one thing.

So many people would "just pop into the disabled toilet".

If everyone with kids did this it would always be full.

Would be a nightmare trying to change my DD.

It isn't just one person "popping in for a minute".

It would be thousands of people.

The reason it isn't always full is that many people hold back.

GetYourSocksOff Tue 20-Aug-13 14:10:26

Has anyone said that? People have said they'd use the baby changing facilities and go quickly at the same time.

insanityscratching Tue 20-Aug-13 14:11:07

Usual I left pfb outside the shop and went home without him when he was ten days old blush It only clicked I had forgotten something when I flicked on the kettle and saw the baby milk in the cupboard next to the teabags.

MrsHoarder Tue 20-Aug-13 14:11:23

I do have protective instincts for my ds, they over ride my instinct to lock the door when peeing. They don't override my understanding if other people having greater needs.

I always choose the most discrete cubical though, so you might not notice the buggy half-out of the door.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Tue 20-Aug-13 14:11:50

Be cautious and protective, but try and temper it with a logical assessment of risk. I am far more likely to get mown down by a drunk driver or someone falling asleep at the wheel, as I push my pram down the street. But I keep doing that. People just don't look at risk logically when it comes to children. If there was no other option (ie you were not allowed to use the disabled access toilets) I'm sure many more people would view the risk differently. But because there is an 'alternative' (even though it's one they shouldn't do), people suddenly think that not only is it less risky (even if the risk was teeny tiny almost negligible to begin with) but it's also easier to use those toilets rather than put the pram outside a normal one and there you go, it's suddenly a case of 'my baby will get snatched if I leave it for a few seconds'.

LadyBryan Tue 20-Aug-13 14:15:29

Oh I'm not worried about the baby being snatched. More some fecker will make off with my bags/shopping/pushchair if empty

miffybun73 Tue 20-Aug-13 14:19:23

I definitely wouldn't do it.

mouseymummy Tue 20-Aug-13 14:19:27

I often go into town with just dd2 in her pushchair and usually, ill use either the disabled toilets that double up as a changing facility or I'll go into the cubicle, wheel dd in and then pee. I wouldn't leave her outside. It's just something that has never crossed my mind tbh. It's just what I do.

I know plenty of people who wouldn't think twice about leaving their dcs outside the cubicle though.

I can't say as I've ever questioned their motives behind it either. We have very different views. Ie I think nothing of giving dd2 a cheese sandwich from sainsburys if we are in town at lunch time, however, one of my friends would go buy spoons and a jar for her dc. That to me, is mental but she's got 4 kids and they've all been raised in the same way.

PicnicPie Tue 20-Aug-13 14:21:31

A lot of what you call "disabled" facilities actually have a pic of wheelchair and a baby indicating that the facility is for anybody requiring a bigger cubicle, for example if you use a wheelchair or use a push chair.

<wonders what the issue is?>

GetYourSocksOff Tue 20-Aug-13 14:21:38

Hmm... I can honestly say I've never used the disabled access toilets just because I wanted a wee. I've just always managed to find a way around it, in my 4 years of having a buggy attached, rather than leaving my child unattended.

I agree that the risk is very small, also agree I'd be more worried about my handbag! It's just that with any risk to your babies, you avoid it if possible. So leaving the house: benefit to baby clearly far outweighs risk. Leaving baby unattended in public place: no benefit (having always found ways round it, again which have not been non-community spirited) but small risk. So I just haven't done it.

Can't say that I find it particularly neglectful! Just interested to hear what others do and don't think it should be considered the only option, regardless of your gut feeling.

Thurlow Tue 20-Aug-13 14:25:24

I'd prefer to go in the accessible loo if I can. If it's a big public loo, those ones with ten or so cubicles, I'll wait until an end one is free so I can park the buggy in front to block/cover me.

However, if needs must I'll ask someone in the queue to mind the pushchair while I pee. Say if it's a small toilet with only 2-3 cubicles, in which case I'd just have to pee in front of everyone! And 18mo would run off or lick the floor or something if I got her out of the pushchair. I'll also leave her strapped in the pushchair in the swimming pool changing rooms and ask another mum to keep an eye if I need to pee before swimming.

The other day I was so desperate in the supermarket and the accessible loo was busy (with a wheelchair outside so I guessed the person inside might take a while) that I asked a passing mum with a baby to mind the toddler and pushchair. I peed spectacularly quickly grin but it still seemed a sensible decision to me.

GetYourSocksOff Tue 20-Aug-13 14:25:42

Bearing in mind, if the 'disabled' toilet doubles as changing facilities/feeding room, I understand it's not ideal to some but I see no reason then not to have a wee while I'm in there changing DCs.

Oriunda Tue 20-Aug-13 14:26:06

I leave the door open and block it with the buggy so I can have a hand on it if necessary, DS can see me and the buggy blocks the view of me on the loo!

chattychattyboomba Tue 20-Aug-13 14:26:55

Exactly picnicpie.

TooExtraImmatureCheddar Tue 20-Aug-13 14:30:00

Fanjo, but that only applies to

a) locations where there are no baby-changing facilities with toilet inside and
b) days when you are alone with baby in buggy and not at eg baby group

I don't often need to take DD in buggy into toilets because I'm either making short trips where I don't need to go to the loo, or I'm with someone, or there is a baby-changing room with toilet or, in fact, the baby-changing facility is in the disabled toilet.

ivykaty44 Tue 20-Aug-13 14:31:04

I can remember taking dd1 to the loo and leaving the door open on the public loo and pulling the pram in through the door so I had the pram handle in reach but the pram was sticking out through the door.

This meant that anyone coming in knew the cubicle was being used and couldn't I used the end cubicle so there was no need for anyone to wander past.

teacherwith2kids Tue 20-Aug-13 14:31:26

Yes, but very rarely.

Was sling user for tiny babies, and both mine walked very early so it wasn't at all a big deal to whip the child out of the pushchair and stand them next to me while I used the toilet.

There were probably only 4 or 5 months for each child when they might have been in a pushchair and unable to stand on their own two feet (Nap? Mine? No, sleep was for wimps...) and the number of times I needed to use the toilet when out and about in those few months wasn't many. End cublicle, pushchair visible. Likelihood of choking within those 30 seconds, given that they never choked on their puschair straps at any other point in the far greater number of hours they spent in them ...not great either.

Also, the number of child-snatchers in my area is, as far as I can determine, negligibly low. The number who would snatch the child and get past the queue of people waiting for the toilet without being stopped, even lower...and the number who would have wanted my basic Maclaren pushchair with no bells or whistles lower still (have never had a handbag or changing bag, always carried a rucksack, so nothing valuable on the pushchair).

Perception of risk is a stange thing. Taking your child for any journey in the car, or even crossing the road, is far, far more dangerous.

Jan49 Tue 20-Aug-13 14:35:13

I would just take the child out of the pushchair and take the child in the cubicle with me. I don't think I've lived anywhere where the Great Pushchair Snatchers live. But I only had 1 child. It probably gets difficult when you take 2 in the cubicle.

littlemisswise Tue 20-Aug-13 14:38:12

The picture of a baby is to indicate that the changing table is in there, not that it is accessible to a pushchair!

GobbySadcase Tue 20-Aug-13 14:39:56

I wish they'd introduce far more RADAR toilets and not have baby change in disabled loos. Would prevent abuse of facilities by those who think giving birth puts them in the same situation as disability.

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 14:40:26

usual I took the "competetive neglect" thread comment to mean neglect of the benign type. So not a dig at you or suggestion that your DCs are neglected.

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 14:42:12

And I love them too maltese grin

littlemisswise Tue 20-Aug-13 14:45:22

So do I Gobby!

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 14:46:45

I have used "disabled" loos when they're mixed with the baby change. This is not abuse. I change my baby and have a wee.
Why in god's name would I leave the cubicle after changing my baby then go to a non disabled loo to piss?
T'would make sense at all.

Never have I vacated the loo to find anyone (other than another parent of small child) waiting.
If someone else's need was greater than mine I'd gladly wait or use another cubicle and leave the door open.

Talk of "abusing" toilets is nonsense and ridiculous.

In quiet shopping centres I've left the buggy (with DD2 in) and 3yo DD1 outside the cubicle. I can see the wheels and DD1's feet and ask DD1 periodically if she's ok.

I don't think I'd leave the buggy by itself though. I know there's a 99.99999999% chance that it'd be fine, but I'd still rather not risk it.

LynetteScavo Tue 20-Aug-13 14:50:40

I wouldn't, and never did.

But then I was totally convinced my children were so utterly gorgeous someone would definitely kidnap them. I never let go off the buggy handle unless I really had to.

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 14:51:16

teacherwithtwokids slings were great for that when mine were tiny.
I was quite proud of my ability to complete necessary ablutions with a baby harnessed to me. blush

GobbySadcase Tue 20-Aug-13 14:51:25

It is abuse of disabled facilities. Started by businesses installing baby change in there instead of in standard loos or dedicated spaces.

SHarri13 Tue 20-Aug-13 14:52:39

Yes, all the time. I have three children, we're out and about a lot. Not able to use disabled as I'm not disabled. I position the buggy outside the door, leave my 3.5 year old or 5 year old with their baby brother, I'm less than a foot away. I continue to talk to them. I really can't see the danger and I'm pretty cautious with my kids.

chattychattyboomba Tue 20-Aug-13 14:52:46

This isn't a debate about accessible loos. Let's not derail it.

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 14:55:34

Sorry chatty

yes and I would never use the disabled toilets because I had a baby, its just wrong, either leave your baby outside the toilet or put it on your lap , honestly there are not hungry hordes wafting to take your child.

PicnicPie Tue 20-Aug-13 14:56:59

littlemisswise but when you're inside how do they know if you're using the cubicle for yourself or to change your baby?? People don't know. And people don't care. As long as one is being considerate of others.

I will continue to use a wheelchair/ pushchair accessible toilet when I am alone with my child and they are in a push chair. It is unacceptable t leave them outside or with a stranger I think the majority of the population would agree??

And how do you know that the picture doesn't indicate that it isn't push chair accessible? The one in kiddicare (where there is a separate baby changing area) has both pics. To me this means its pushchair and wheelchair accessible. I used it this morning. And I regularly use the one in John Lewis - again where there is a separate baby changing area.

I have had wheel chair users help me in and out of the cubicle. It all goes back to mp being considerate to others needs, IMHO.

teacherwith2kids Tue 20-Aug-13 14:58:16

Lynnette, had to laugh at your comment.

I don't much like babies. Children, I love. I would have died to protect my own babies from a genuine risk. But the idea that anyone might think my babies gorgeous or adorable....no.....

SHarri13 Tue 20-Aug-13 14:59:12

I'm interested to hear people's reason for not leaving a pushchair 2 foot away from them?

Seriously the amount of 'no, never' has conetley gobs makes me!

I wouldn't, it's not a risk worth taking.
I either take my child out the pushchair and bring them in with me or use the nearest disabled/easy access toilet, obviously checking there is no one ineed of using it.

teacherwith2kids Tue 20-Aug-13 15:02:54

"It is unacceptable t leave them outside or with a stranger I think the majority of the population would agree??"

IME, where I was living when I had children of this age, it was absolutely the norm to leave a pushchair outside the cubicle if one went to the toilet - either with the child in if too young to walk, or while the toddler came in with the parent.

Disabled toilet had RADAR key so not an option.

fromparistoberlin Tue 20-Aug-13 15:09:10

i never did it, just go to end cubicle and leave door open

who the fuck invented that door/loo carrier thing, funny!

Thurlow Tue 20-Aug-13 15:12:50

Far to sweeping to say it's "unacceptable" to leave the kids with a stranger. Parents are perfectly capable of making their own 'risk assessment'. Asking another parent to mind a pushchair for a few minutes is hardly unacceptable, I've done it myself, both asking and minding. Some places you physically couldn't get the pushchair into even if you tried, so even if you took the DC in with you you'd still be leaving a pushchair on the street.

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 15:18:17

OMG

So on MN mentioning the names of two boys who abducted and murdered a toddler can be described as "hysterical" and on the same thread, using mixed facility lavatories can be described as abuse.

Of course it's extraordinarily rare for a baby to be snatched.
But is is quite reasonable (primal maternal preoccupation at play here) for a mother to not want her baby to be out of sight and reach.

WetGrass Tue 20-Aug-13 15:21:08

It's called 'judgement'.

If there is a queue of women watching you park your pram and go into the cubicle - I find it quite implausible that someone would snatch your DC.

If it is a clingy toddler and someone who looks unpredictable loitering - I'd take them in.

Jollyb Tue 20-Aug-13 15:24:37

Yes

BadSpeakingSkills Tue 20-Aug-13 15:25:10

No never, always used disabled / family loo.

stickingattwo Tue 20-Aug-13 15:25:21

yes- would and have when there's been no alternative.Left door ajar slightly. maybe i live in a nicer town than some of the other posters but not for one second do i think anyone would try to nick my baby while i was on the loo!

everlong Tue 20-Aug-13 15:29:14

Crikey.

I'm pretty neurotic where taking chances are concerned with dc and even I would have a quick wee with the door closed to.

Samu2 Tue 20-Aug-13 15:31:14

Yeah, I have done it. With the door open a little.

It's about risk assessment and it is not a very big one.

I just don't worry a great deal about abduction as stranger abduction is so very rare. I can't live my life in constant fear of it. It wouldn't even cross my mind to not do this to be honest.

candycoatedwaterdrops Tue 20-Aug-13 15:39:26

Emilythorne

"Never have I vacated the loo to find anyone (other than another parent of small child) waiting."

Do parents not have disabilities then?

And yes, I am bringing up the issue of disabled/accessible toilets because a.) this is a fred about a fred and b.) people have openly said they will use the disabled toilets.

Lambsie Tue 20-Aug-13 15:41:29

When ds was little I used end cubicle. Now that he is in sn buggy I use the disabled toilet ( is getting too old to be sat around in ladies).

LittleBearPad Tue 20-Aug-13 15:52:05

Disabled/baby change loo or I leave the door a jar on the cubicle and chat. DD hates hand dryers so I couldn't leave her completely. This is the other reason I prefer disabled/baby change loos as then I can use hand towels or wave hands frantically to dry them.

One of the local family loos here (Athens) has a small loo and nowhere for a changing mat despite being an enormous room. It's very frustrating as changing tables are rare anyway.

LittleBearPad Tue 20-Aug-13 15:53:44

Sorry to all those who say don't use the disabled loos - they are usually the ones with changing stations in them and are multipurpose.

hazeyjane Tue 20-Aug-13 15:55:20

No I wouldn't leave buggy with children in outside, because mine have all been very clingy screamers!

Instead I -

wodge buggy in door and leave it open
or
take children into cubicle with me

(isn't this a thread about a thread?)

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 20-Aug-13 15:55:47

Its perfectly acceptable to use a disabled toilet if that toilet is formally doubled up as a baby change area.

KingRollo Tue 20-Aug-13 15:56:07

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

skaen Tue 20-Aug-13 16:05:16

No, I'd leave the door open with the pushchair wedged in it/ bring the child in with me and sat in my lap. I've never used the disabled toilets - I'm not disabled so I don't need to. If the baby has needed changing we go to boots or somewhere else with a dedicated baby room.

Thurlow Tue 20-Aug-13 16:05:38

Sorry to all those who say don't use the disabled loos - they are usually the ones with changing stations in them and are multipurpose.

Some are, some aren't. Most nowadays seem to be marked as the accessible loo and have signs for disabled use and baby changing. But if it's just a disabled loo then it's not entirely fair to use it.

KingRollo, I did that with DD the other day when I ran back into the house to find something - nice, quiet residential street. It probably only took me a minute but when I came back out there were a loads of builders from the house opposite watching the pushchair and I swear they all had cat's bum faces blush

teacherwith2kids Tue 20-Aug-13 16:12:31

Littlebear, IF a disabled toilet is formally marked as a nappy change room, then it is acceptable to use it FOR NAPPY CHANGING.

Many aren't, and it doesn't make them a family toilet - if you don't need to change a child's nappy, whether or not you have a child with you you shouldn't use that toilet.

It isn't a good solution anyway, and we should be campaigning for proper family toilets separate from disabled ones, and proper baby areas for changing and feeding (John Lewis is often excellent for this). But it remains ONLY acceptable to use them IF you are changing a nappy and IF that dual use is formally marked.

Permanentlyexhausted Tue 20-Aug-13 16:12:55

I can't remember ever having this problem in the dim and distant past when mine were in pushchairs, I've no idea what I did.

However, if you're worried about someone snatching your baby from their pushchair outside the toilet cubicle, wait until your sons start wanting to use the men's toilets on their own.

Famzilla Tue 20-Aug-13 16:13:13

If I can't fit the pram in with me or there isn't one in the baby changing bit, I just ask someone (usually a group of old ladies or another mum) to mind the pram for me and I pee with speed.

Never thought of using the disabled loos before, don't they require a special key?

Lavidaenrosa Tue 20-Aug-13 16:25:08

Never. Better safe than sorry, I do not close the door if there isn't a disabled toilet available.

EntWife Tue 20-Aug-13 16:25:30

I must be the worst mum in the world appatently. dd2 is 15months and was sound asleep in her buggy this morning. dd1 is 3 and was desperate for the loo. the multipurpose baby change/family loo/disabled loo was engaged (lady breastfeeding in there. while other thread!) so I quite happily left Dd2 asleep in the buggy and took dd1 into the ladies for a wee. we were gone maybe 5 minutes. probably less.
I couldn't take the buggy into the ladies loo as it has a series of fire doors at odd angles which make it impossible.

I made a risk assessment. deemed the risk to be infantessimle and so left her.

Lavidaenrosa Tue 20-Aug-13 16:28:39

Permanently I'm scared of it. A 14 year old boy was raped in the male toilets not so long ago (don't remember where).

Pawprint Tue 20-Aug-13 16:31:57

I did an absolutely appalling thing when ds was a baby. I wanted the loo and was holding him. A woman standing in the queue offered to hold him whilst I went in. She could have been anybody but she looked nice so I let her. Obviously he was fine, but I can't believe I did it.

To answer your question, I don't think it's unreasonable to leave a baby (esp one sleeping) outside the cubicle in a pushchair. I think that's fine.

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 16:36:18

candycoated
Of course a parent might have a disabi
It's. But an accessible loo is designed for someone who has difficulty using a regualr sized cubicle or who needs the adaptations of a disabled loo. I haven't seen a non able bodied person waiting to use the loo on my exit, from memory.
But so what if I had? Can a person with a disability never wait for a loo?
Ever?
I'm not running about pushing in front of frail old ladies or wheelchair users, or kicking the walking sticks out from ppl to get to the loo before them. I wait my turn and use the most appropriate facility.

If the loo has combined facilities I consider perfectly acceptable to use them.
Maybe you could apply for a toilet monitor's job.

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 16:38:23

And I don't think anyone is a bad parent for leaving their child outside a cubicle whilst they use the loo.
But I would prefer not to do it myself.

LittleBearPad Tue 20-Aug-13 16:38:38

No I think teacherwith2kids has already applied for that role.

silverangel Tue 20-Aug-13 16:40:26

Nope, no way.

I use the disabled loo in my local shopping centre. I have twins and can't see any other way to do it.

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 20-Aug-13 16:41:17

Someone asked earlier if the people who object are disabled.

I object in the main ..unless the baby changing facilities are in there..obviously. .people are being disingenuous to say people are saying they cant use them then...and I am not disabled but my DD is.

She is nearly 7 but 9 year old size and in nappies. No way can we fit in a cubicle to change her nappy

She is not good at waiting. She will scream and lie on floor.

So we are glad if disabled toilet is empty

The salient point here is that if everyone with kids used them routinely there would be huge queues.

Nothing to do with "being PC" it's a matter of need

Why can't people see it's not a matter of "just them popping in for 2 mins with noone else around".

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 20-Aug-13 16:42:32

Nothing more to say on subject and no interest in a bun fight

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 16:42:40

Lavidaenrosa it was manchester I be.ieve.
Awful.

Smartiepants79 Tue 20-Aug-13 16:45:54

Bloody hell can't believe how many people wouldn't leave a child strapped into a buggy with the brakes on for the 60 seconds it takes to go to the loo.
I don't do it if there is a choice but have done so in the past and will continue to do so in emergencys.
She just makes big eyes at people.
I can hear her chatting and people cooing at her.
The chances of anything happening to her are slim to none.

blueberryupsidedown Tue 20-Aug-13 16:49:52

Yes I have. More than once. I have them outside shops, outside cafes (when they were speeping, just out side the door and I could see them), in the double pram. Outside loos at the supermarket.

candycoatedwaterdrops Tue 20-Aug-13 16:50:42

Emilythorne How bloody patronising are you?! I pointed out that you have no idea if someone has a disability or not and you made a snide remark. You're still making silly comments about being able to tell if someone is able bodied or not. There are plenty of reasons why someone may need a disabled toilet that doesn't mean they are in a wheelchair. Perhaps have a look at "this is my child" campaign?

blueberryupsidedown Tue 20-Aug-13 16:51:32

I meant left them...

PicnicPie Tue 20-Aug-13 16:52:50

Loved your post emilythorne made me chuckle, especially the bit about kicking the walking sticks. grin

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 20-Aug-13 16:53:38

Yes.my child looks able bodiedish til she makes a noise

Dawndonnaagain Tue 20-Aug-13 16:55:26

Whilst many of you lot are using the disabled lavatory, my extremely intelligent, very articulate 16 year old has wet herself. Imagine what that does for her self confidence and comfort next time you use a disabled lavatory.

Idespair Tue 20-Aug-13 16:55:37

When mine were small, I'd often piss with the door half open so could always see them. If you out the buggy in the doorway, it will block the view of your fanjo anyway! Most normal people would just look the other way seeing a buggy half in a bog.

lljkk Tue 20-Aug-13 16:59:04

would do, have done, have a radar key, too but not always on me.

foreverondiet Tue 20-Aug-13 16:59:51

I have had to in shopping centre toilets.... I talk to him throughout. Try and get end cubicle and leave open but not always possible. Think chance of being abducted v low as everyone in queue would see it...

Libertine73 Tue 20-Aug-13 17:00:01

yes, I've had the fastest pisses in history with the door half open too grin

5madthings Tue 20-Aug-13 18:36:15

It was me that suggested leaving then just outside the cubicle whilst you have a wee, I have always done this. Or there is the door half open method as others have suggested.

Five children, fourteen years of doing this and no-one has snatched one of them yet.

Obviously its a judgement call but in most places I use toilets its been fine, is supermarkets, stores like m&s and john Lewis etc.

But then I got a store assistant to hold ds3 as a newborn as I had him in a sling but wanted to try a top on. I pulled the curtain too so I could see the assists t holding him and she wass happy to hold him. Still didn't stop another person telling me how irresponsible it was as she could have stolen him... Yes the staff member on duty, with CCTV etc in changing rooms who I could SEE as I was changing could have stolen him...

But then my eight year old uses the mens toilets and plays out in our cul de sac and can go to the local shop two mins away...and he is sleeping in a tent in my sisters back garden (with two older brothers 14 and 11) this week when we visit, so I a, clearly an irresponsible parent...

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 18:38:19

candycoated my comment was no more patronising than yours really.
Of course I know that a parent could have a disability.
I also know the same might be true of a child.

I'm not using a disabled parking space, driving someone of a space for a significant length of time. I use the public lavatory that is designated for"disabled" and baby change. I hange my baby and use the loo.
And up are suggesting that's abuse of services.
Well it fucking isn't.

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 18:39:18

hange = change
up = you.

candycoatedwaterdrops Tue 20-Aug-13 18:52:11

I didn't suggest it was abuse of services! Go on, find where I said it. Oh wait, you can't!

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 19:00:55

I didn't say that you said it was an abuse.
I said you suggested it.
So, sorry if I misunderstood. I thought you were of the opinion that ppl shouldn't use the accessible loo unless they have a disability. I thought that because after I said I hadn't seen a disabled person waiting for the loo you asked how I would know.

appletarts Tue 20-Aug-13 19:06:19

Take baby out of buggy and sit baby on your knee for bouncing fun and coochy coo while you pee, works very well actually, then back in buggy for handwash. simple.

MiaowTheCat Tue 20-Aug-13 19:14:53

Take baby out of buggy and sit baby on your knee for bouncing fun and coochy coo while you pee, works very well actually, then back in buggy for handwash. simple.

Two kids under 18 months, neither walking yet... not so simple.

noblegiraffe Tue 20-Aug-13 19:16:40

What if it's not a wee!

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 19:20:33

grin noblegiraffe

A. Go before leaving home?
B. never go out without a trusted friend?
C. door ajar or loo with facilities.

I choose a. grin

shufflehopstep Tue 20-Aug-13 19:20:58

I'm with the others who say use a disabled loo if you can.

Jackanory1978 Tue 20-Aug-13 19:23:29

Never ever ever. I'd hold him while I went.

Dawndonnaagain Tue 20-Aug-13 19:25:33

Thank you Shufflehopstep Whilst you are using the disabled loo, my 16 year old has wet herself. She is crying because she is embarrassed and she is in pain because uric acid and ammonia burn her psoriasis patches, but hey, you go ahead, love.
hmm

MrsDeVere Tue 20-Aug-13 19:25:46

I have done it for years. It is very unlikely your child will be stolen in the few seconds you are in the toilet. Unless you have a serious hearing problem you will know someone is messing about with the buggy if they go anywhere near it.

Has any child ever been snatched in these circumstances?

You should not use a disabled toilet unless you are disabled. Its not rocket science.

racmun Tue 20-Aug-13 19:27:49

I use the disabled loo. Have gone and asked staff members to open it up before and they have always been obliging.

Don't really see what the issue is with doing it tbh.

I wouldn't leave ds outside - I just don't feel comfortable

MrsDeVere Tue 20-Aug-13 19:28:50

Its a bit odd (IMO) that it often comes up on these endless threads that no one has ever seen a disabled person waiting for the toilet
but the merest idea of a child being stolen is all the evidence people need for not leaving their child outside.

I have never heard of a child being snatched outside of a toilet therefore I will continue to go to the loo whilst my child is inches from me.

Rather than use a facility reserved for those with a disability.

Unless I am unlucky enough to develop a disability of course.

NoComet Tue 20-Aug-13 19:30:15

Yes, I have done, three wheeler so uou can jam the wheel visably against the door, awkward harness too if anyone was daft enough to 'steel' DD.

Once oast babyhood neither would have been cooperative.

DD1 would simply have wandered off, DD1 escaped all adults not wise to her tricks and DD2 would have screamed.

Dawndonnaagain Tue 20-Aug-13 19:30:33

Don't really see what the issue is with doing it tbh.
Sorry, can you read?

Dawndonnaagain Tue 20-Aug-13 19:33:07
MrsDeVere Tue 20-Aug-13 19:33:34

You don't see the issue with using something that you are not entitled to use just because you want to?
Nice attitude.

MrsDeVere Tue 20-Aug-13 19:35:06

That campaign is well meant but lets face it, so many people only really support stuff like that if it doesn't get in the way of their life.

Cute kids....awwww.

Disabled toilet, blue badge space, DLA, kid with SN sitting next to theirs....it all goes out the fucking window doesn't it?

usualsuspect Tue 20-Aug-13 19:42:22

I'm with MrsDV , I would never use a disabled toilet because it made my life easier.

They are provided to make people with disabilities lives easier.

So bloody well keep out of them unless you are entitled to use them.

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 19:44:40

mrsdevere it's really not odd at all.

A person (with or without a disability) waiting a few moments to use the lavatory / a child being kidnapped.
Not comparable whatsoever. Why would anyone be interested in whether they were as likely as each other.

Anyway back to this thread: I wouldn't want to leave my small child or baby unattended so would either leave the door open with pram in front of door or I would use the combined accessible / baby change loo when changing my baby.

teacherwith2kids Tue 20-Aug-13 19:45:09

As I have probably made clear enough here and on the other thread, I'm with MrsDV.

jacks365 Tue 20-Aug-13 19:51:22

Generally where I go baby changing is separate to the disabled toilet so I don't use the disabled. If I am out alone with dd4 then I tend to not go far, supermarket would be the only toilets I think I've used ( no toilet in baby change room) its rare that there is anyone else in the toilets and I don't worry about leaving her in pram outside cubicle. If I'm out in the city centre I'm not on my own so we take turns for the toilet, I wouldn't leave her outside the cubicle in a very large toilet block.

Dawndonnaagain Tue 20-Aug-13 19:52:45

One would guess Emily because those of us with disabled children are still able to use our faculties and apply reason and logic, ergo likelihood of kidnapping weighed up, dismissed.
I have no problem with shared facilities, but I do object to people putting my daughter into a difficult and painful situation, unnecessarily.

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 19:58:06

What have I done that puts your daughter in a difficult position?
Of course I wouldn't want to do that.
When I use the baby change facilities, if I need to I take a piss.
The baby change facilities are often in the same cubicle as he disabled loo.
I see extensive queues for public loos of the small cubicle variety.
I have never seen a queue for the disabled loo. Occasionally someone is outside as I come out. One person. (it's always been an adult with at least one baby in a puschair).

GangstersLoveToDance Tue 20-Aug-13 20:00:04

Would I leave a baby in their buggy outside a cubicle when in a motorway service station? Where there are 35 toilets and about 50 people in there, constant busy foot traffic etc - highly doubtful.

Would I leave a baby in their buggy outside the cubicle in my local Tesco, where there are two cubicles only and only one other person in there? Would and have.

There's no need for hysterics over it. You do what every sane and normal parent does with numerous situations on a day to day basis - make a risk assessment on that individual situation.

Dawndonnaagain Tue 20-Aug-13 20:03:36

Anybody using a disabled lavatory without need puts my daughter in a difficult position, and every other disabled person entitled to use that facility.
I didn't say you in particular, Emily
As for nobody being there, it's probably because they've found it's being used and their fifty four year old, overweight mother is running for the next available loo.
Seriously, if it's a shared facility, fair enough, then we can expect that now and then it's going to be in use. We would prefer not to use that one, because when she needs to go, she needs to go, now, so we go to one that isn't shared, and some silly, selfish arse is in there incase baba gets nicked, or because there was a queue for the main lavatories. That puts my daughter in a difficult and painful position.

MrsKoala Tue 20-Aug-13 20:09:32

Yes, i just leave the cubicle door open. If i need a poo i just close it as my poos are quicker than wees.

gordyslovesheep Tue 20-Aug-13 20:17:29

I am not disabled so I don't use disabled loos

I did they whole end cubicle door open thing - no one was snatched by giant peedowls swooping down to carry them off or anything - all 3 of mine survived my negletful weeing

oh and, naturally, what Mrs DV said

ShowMeTheCoffee Tue 20-Aug-13 20:17:32

Have done so many a time.

* would take my wallet into the cubicle with me though wink.

i'd leave the door open

MrsDeVere Tue 20-Aug-13 20:22:30

emily it IS odd because as far as I am aware NO child has ever been snatched from their peeing mother.

If they had I am quite sure it would be all over the news.

Therefore it is odd that people use it as justification for being so fucking selfish.

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 20:35:36

I still don't understand why you think it's so "fucking selfish" to use the facilities in the way I have described.
Baby change is often in the same cubicle as accessible loo.
I change baby's nappy. I pee.
That's not "fucking selfish"
It's common fucking sense.

And the op started this thread so as not to derail the previous thread about using "disabled" facilities. The question was "would you leave your baby unattended?" I am perfectly justified in saying that i'd prefer not to without being accused of being hysterical or insane.
So what? I want to be in sight and reach of my baby so sometimes I'll leave the door open, sometimes I'll pee while I'm using the SHARED facilities.
I don't make derisive comments about other people's choices so it's a bit irritating to be in receipt of them. Or to have it inferred that anyone who uses a shared change/ disabled loo has disablist leanings.

Emily there are people all over this thread saying they'd "just" use the disabled loo. Not "if it's shared use", but "because I'll only be two minutes". rtft?

everlong Tue 20-Aug-13 20:39:16

<snorts at peeing mother>

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 20:42:02

I have rift thanks.
I'm answering posts with my name on.

GobbySadcase Tue 20-Aug-13 20:43:51

* cheers Mrs DeVere *
I'm being unfair dontcha know, sharing your sentiments?
As long as there is a big public campaign then people can say what they like against disabled people because.... Ooh look cute kids - warm fuzzies, aaaah.

That 16 year old in the wheelchair who has soiled herself can get lost, so they've got a CAMPAIGN.

MrsDeVere Tue 20-Aug-13 20:45:13

So what is the alternative to not leaving your child outside?

Taking the baby inside is always discounted with a horrified 'how on earth can I, with only two arms, hold a whole baby, while I pee?'

And using a disabled toilet is given as THE alternative many times over on these threads.

And it is selfish to use a disabled toilet because you don't want to leave your child strapped into it's buggy a few inches from you for a minute.

Disability groups have long bemoaned the use of disabled toilets as the only changing facilities. Great to have them FOR disabled parents to use, not so great to double up.

If there is one unit for baby changing and your baby needs a change, use it. But this thread is not about that is it?

MrsDeVere Tue 20-Aug-13 20:46:22

poo
bum
willy

<for everlong's amusement>
grin

everlong Tue 20-Aug-13 20:47:37

grin

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 20:49:43

The alternative is to leave the door open or use the shared facility when I change my baby.
Simple.

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 20:52:14

And no. I don't want to leave my baby outside a public lavatory and I don't give a shit whether anyone considers that precious, ureasonable or entitled.

candycoatedwaterdrops Tue 20-Aug-13 20:55:54

It's fine to not want to leave your baby outside, you could hold your baby or pee with the door ajar.

MrsDeVere Tue 20-Aug-13 20:59:05

Absolutely fine not to want to leave your baby outside.
Not fine to use that to justify using a disabled toilet.

Which is what lots of people do.

Spikeytree Tue 20-Aug-13 21:06:38

It gets right on my nerves this sort of thing. People with disabilities campaign relentlessly for things like accessible public transport and toilets, often putting themselves through pain and embarrassment, and then just because someone has a pram they automatically assume they are a higher priority for the facilities.

If a person with disabilities cannot access these facilities they cannot go out. It isn't just inconvenient to them, it stops them functioning in society as they should be able to. These facilities aren't designed to make the life of people with a pram easier, they are designed to make the life of the person with the disability possible.

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 21:07:04

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Spikeytree Tue 20-Aug-13 21:12:02

I would assume Emily, she could just go into a cubicle, unless she has mobility issues (other than a buggy) that make this impossible, in which case of course she can use the facilities for people with disabilities, as she has a disability.

MrsKoala Tue 20-Aug-13 21:12:51

why not just leave the door open then?

McNewPants2013 Tue 20-Aug-13 21:16:15

It gets on my goat when DS has to wait, and he has quite a few times.

Disabled toilet are for the use of the disabled, and when doubled up as a baby changing facility then people are using extra time going to the toilet on top of the time it takes to change a nappy.

My son is 7 and he can use normal facility, if they are not full. When he needs to go he needs to go. ( he has autism) or he will wet himself.

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 21:16:53

The cubicles are in use.
The disabled loo is the only one available.

And yes. It happens

MrsKoala Tue 20-Aug-13 21:17:47

I must say Emily - after i had DS i was double incontinent (bad rectal tearing) and i did use the disabled loos rather than shit myself on more than one occasion. I even used the mens once. blush

MortifiedAdams Tue 20-Aug-13 21:19:10

I just choose the baby changing cubicles which have loo, changing table etc in. Or I dont pee «bladder of steel»

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 21:21:27

Of course you bloody did mrsk you'd have been mad not to.
Now please tell me that pelvic floor exercises do work and it will get better grin

candycoatedwaterdrops Tue 20-Aug-13 21:23:03

None of people on this thread who've said they 'pop in' to the disabled toilets have said they were so desperate they'd have an accident if they didn't go. confused

MrsDeVere Tue 20-Aug-13 21:24:28

If you have severe continence issues you are perfectly entitled to use the disabled toilets.

So that is a straw man argument.

These threads are so sodding predictable.

There is no special list that disabled people are put on.
If you have a disability/illness/condition you get to use the toilets.
If you have a baby, you don't.

Spikeytree Tue 20-Aug-13 21:27:02

I must be lucky then, I've never been in a situation where the only facilities available are the ones for people with disabilities. In fact quite the opposite. If a person has a genuine medical condition then I am sure the use of the facilities is appropriate. Having a buggy is not, afaik, a recognised disability.

Years ago, when I was a lass and people with disabilities were not allowed to go to the toilet outside of the home, people with prams (usually massive things) were quite able to go to the toilet without an epidemic of child snatching sweeping the country.

appletarts Tue 20-Aug-13 21:30:36

Just putting it out there...what about people who shag in disabled loos? Unimaginable horror but people do it!

MrsKoala Tue 20-Aug-13 21:31:43

Sorry MrsD i didn't mean to set it up as an argument. I agree with you. I use a cubicle and leave the door open as said earlier. I was just saying the only reason i have had to use them - when i was genuinely disabled by birth trauma (blue badge or not)

Spikeytree Tue 20-Aug-13 21:33:42

I don't know why I bother posting when MrsDeVere puts it so much more eloquently than I can!

Wallison Tue 20-Aug-13 21:38:10

I agree with MrsDeVere too. My ds is older now but when he was a baby I would never have dreamt of using a disabled toilet on the off-chance that a crazed child-snatcher was looking for some golden opportunity while I took 30 seconds to have a piss. I left him outside if I couldn't fit the buggy in the cubicle and absolutely nothing happened to him. He didn't even hang himself.

AlwaysWashing Tue 20-Aug-13 21:47:14

A risk is a risk and if I can avoid one I will. My children are precious and I don't give a rats ass if anyone thinks I'm terribly pfb about either if them.
I would never leave either of them while I went to the loo and I'm afraid wouldn't feel guilty about having a 3 minute wee & hand wash in the disabled loo - sorry.

I have a friend, a really good friend, who ridicules me regularly about my pfb tendencies but then she's happy to leave her 2 asleep in the car while she goes round the supermarket for the weekly groceries.

LegoAcupuncture Tue 20-Aug-13 21:48:29

Totally with Usual and MrsDV on tis one.

I have three DC, the oldest is 10, the youngest is 4. I've never used a disabled toilet when out with a pram. I've parked myself in the end cubicle with the door slightly ajar so I an see the baby. What's the worse that can happen? Someone might peek and see my fat arse?

I use a disabled toilet now as one of my DC is disabled, but I would only use that toilet if they needed the toilet. Occasionally we can use the normal toilets, depends on the circumstances.

A few weeks ago I was out with him and we used the disabled toilets. On exiting I was accosted by an old lady who had a huge go at me as she had saw us go in(using a radar key) and clearly neither of us were disabled. She told me to stay where I was as she as going to get the security guard. Silly old cow. She got a few choice words and off I went. Made me feel rotten for the rest of the day though.

Wallison Tue 20-Aug-13 21:54:14

AlwaysWashing, I'm not bothered about people thinking I'm pfb either. What I am bothered about though, is using a facility that has been designed to enable other people to be able to go about their daily business and that I have no right to be anywhere near. What if your 'three minute wee and hand wash' meant that someone for whom the facility was expressly built wasn't able to access it when they needed to? Wouldn't you feel absolutely awful?

pamish Tue 20-Aug-13 21:55:04

Let's hope that public toilet designers are reading this thread. The problem is one of bad, unimaginative design, not how we are forced to improvise solutions to very common problems.

Wallison Tue 20-Aug-13 22:01:55

I don't think it is, actually. Most toilets are fine. Ok, some are a bit dirty and you can't lock the door, but they do the job they need to do. They just aren't designed to accommodate buggies, but since they don't actually have to accommodate buggies because you can leave buggies outside the cubicle then that is fine.

Dawndonnaagain Tue 20-Aug-13 22:02:15

I would never leave either of them while I went to the loo and I'm afraid wouldn't feel guilty about having a 3 minute wee & hand wash in the disabled loo - sorry.
But you're not sorry are you, you've already said you don't give a rats arse if you cause my daughter pain, embarrassment, discomfort. Apart from which, surely sorry means a change of behaviour?

GobbySadcase Tue 20-Aug-13 22:04:02

Wallison of course not, as long as her pweshus baybeeeez are ok.

pigletmania Tue 20-Aug-13 22:04:25

I would use the disabled toilet, or take the Chidren in the cubicle if they are able to stand, Noway would I eave my most precious things in the weld alone!

5madthings Tue 20-Aug-13 22:08:13

Heaven forbid a baby be left in a buggy inches away for 60seconds whilst you have a wee.

If you don't want to leave your baby outside the cubicle then use a sling, ask someone to watch them, prop the door open an inch. Do whatever you fucking want but don't use the disabled toilet that you are not entitled to use!

Seriously, I have five children, have had three under five and yet haven't used the disabled toilets, because I do not have a disability.

Spikeytree Tue 20-Aug-13 22:14:39

All those unable to leave their 'precious' babies (aren't they all precious?), why not start a campaign to get your own facilities? Just like people with disabilities did. You could tell your story to the papers, just like people with disabilities did. You could set up access groups in your local areas, just like people with disabilities did. Or you could just abuse the facilities that make life possible for people with disabilities.

LegoAcupuncture Tue 20-Aug-13 22:17:14

The big shopping centre by me has pram accessible toilets in both the women's and men's toilets. There are two cubicles in each. Shame not more places follow suit.

Wallison Tue 20-Aug-13 22:19:04

GobbySadcase, I haven't really been on one of these type of threads before (from reading some of the responses this is something that has been hashed out a lot) and I am absolutely astonished at some of the responses on here. A toilet expressly built for people with disabilities is not just some lovely big free space for people who don't have disabilities to do as they like in; it's an essential provision without which people with disabilities would not be able to leave the house ie live their lives at all. You just can't go mucking about with stuff like that on the off-chance that Thompson and Venables will come along and STEAL YOUR BABY while you are admittedly separated from them by a door that is ajar but only at a distance of inches away from them.

olidusUrsus Tue 20-Aug-13 22:27:49

Seconding the posts of MrsDeVere and Dawndonnaagain.

Please do not use the disabled toilets unless you are disabled.

Of course if you are doubly incontinent after giving birth you are entitled to use the disabled loos, not every disabled person is handed a blue badge upon diagnosis/accident/injury, nor is every disability permanent.

It's not okay just because there is no one waiting when you leave the disabled cubicle, either.

MrsDeVere Tue 20-Aug-13 22:28:56

MrsKoala my post was not directed at you.

It is something that is bought up as an argument on these threads . You did not use it as an argument, you mentioned it and seemed to feel guilty about it.

You shouldn't.

There seems to be this idea about that The Disabled are on some sort of register and are therefore approved to use the toilets.
Very few people are 'registered disabled' now days. My OH and my DS are not and tbh I don't know anyone who is (although some people still are).

In our borough its just a data collecting exercise. It doesn't entitle the individual to anything.

Using a disabled toilet is not like using a blue badge parking space. Yes, you do have to have a disability/condition to use both but you don't have to have official permission to use the loos.

You simply need to need them. As someone who suffered a traumatic birth injury you would of course need to use one.

As would someone with a temporary condition, illness or someone who is on chemo etc.

IMO anyone who gave you a hard time would be in the wrong.

But I am utterly fed up with precious mummas thinking that giving birth means they have the right to co-opt facilities that have been hard won by people with actual disabilities/conditions/illnesses.

TBH half the time I reckon people are more bothered about their expensive buggies and the shopping they have left on them. What is more likely to be nicked? A handbag or a baby?

MrsDeVere Tue 20-Aug-13 22:30:39

WHY are people so convinced their babies are going to be stolen anyway?

When did this obsession start?

If it happened at lot or even a couple of times I would understand it. But it hasn't, has it? confused

olidusUrsus Tue 20-Aug-13 22:33:58

I like to blame media induced sensationalisation & hysteria, MrsD.

GangstersLoveToDance Tue 20-Aug-13 22:34:18

My df often uses a disabled toilet with the dc.

He has gone in there when out on his own with the dc, to change a nappy. Because it's larger (nigh on impossible in many gents toilets) - but also because it's probably cleaner to lie them on the floor there than in the mens next to the urinals. There is NEVER a baby change facility in the gents, and often the baby change is in the women's and not the disabled. Technically he shouldn't be in the disabled loos.

Is this 'allowed' according to those that have opposed any dc use in disabled toilets. Or...

GobbySadcase Tue 20-Aug-13 22:34:33

I know, Wallison. Good init?
Having three disabled kids, who are liable to have an uncontrollable meltdown if anyone dares to use a hand dryer in proximity to them, makes days out really fun.

Especially if you're standing there waiting for a mummy with buggy to come out of the loo. For no other reason than they didn't want to leave the buggy outside.

Don't get me started on the dickheads that jump in front of the two wheelchairs as we go to put them in the lift and then stare at us aggressively. Especially when they could have taken the escalator, we have no choice but to wait...

Seriously. The actions of a few entitled bastards really do make some days out miserable. Perhaps I should keep my defectives at home and stop bothering people?

Having a baby is not the same as having a disability. Or a child with a disability.

There are some complete arseholes out there.

gordyslovesheep Tue 20-Aug-13 22:35:27

erm no he is using the baby changing facility see - which is for changing babies - he has a baby ...he is changing it <is this really that confusing?>

LittleBearPad Tue 20-Aug-13 22:35:33

So the upshot is that if disabled loos are also baby changes (which is often the case) it's ok to change a baby in them but not have a wee yourself. (Sorry I do do this if my crap pelvic floor muscles are letting me down).

Buggies can be left outside and doors left open if wanted. I also do this and can't be arsed to wait for the end cubicle (see pelvic floor above)

DCs can be taken into cubicles on laps or standing as appropriate if need be. (Do this and then shriek at dd not to touch anything especially the bin full of loo paper - love Greek plumbing)

Is this right?

GangstersLoveToDance Tue 20-Aug-13 22:40:41

Er...no gordy...I am referring to just a disabled toilet.

They do not all have baby change facilities...sometimes the only baby change is in the lady's.

GobbySadcase Tue 20-Aug-13 22:40:45

Oh, and as before. Baby change units should NOT be in disabled loos. There should also be widespread RADAR keys in operation to prevent abuse of the facilities.

I'm constantly encountering this. People want to use the disabled loo, the disabled parking space (locally its to use the cashpoint) and to use the wheelchair bay on the bs (even calling it the buggy space ffs).

They want to take all these 'perks', hell they want to take my carers allowance as I shouldn't be paid to look after my own children, but do they want to take the disability? No, they don't. The Daily Mail has already made Merlin restrict the exit pass scheme so you pay full entrance fee but only get 10 rides....

Does anyone have the first bloody clue what ^ that lot is like to live with? Fucking horrendous!

This Is My Child doesn't so much as scratch the surface. It's a fart in a colander, really.

Spikeytree Tue 20-Aug-13 22:42:36

Agree totally about more use of RADAR keys to prevent abuse, Gobby.

It is shite what you have to put up with.

noblegiraffe Tue 20-Aug-13 22:44:52

From the minute your baby is born, MrsDeVere, you are told not to leave your baby unattended. At the hospital we had to push them around in their little tubs, take them with us to breakfast etc, on pain of being told off by a midwife.
When I signed up baby with the doctor, again, signs everywhere saying DO NOT LEAVE YOUR BABY UNATTENDED.
I took baby to the supermarket today. The trolley had a sign on it with a mum turning her back on her baby with a big cross through it.

Not really a surprise that mums are reluctant to leave their baby out of sight in a public place then, really.

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 22:48:32

I think so littlebear

teacherwith2kids Tue 20-Aug-13 22:52:12

Hmm - unless toilets are of a totally different design where you luve, our public toilets had doors with great big gaps at the top and bottom. In many, frankly, you can stick a foot out and put it under a pushchair wheel while using the toilet. Or you can leave the door slightly ajar, with the pushchair across it. Or even the door fully open and the buggy facing into it to cover you.

Or you can use a sling, hold your baby, or once they can stand you just bring them in with you and stand them up next to you.

For a 30 second use of the toilet, it is not exactly leaving a baby unattended - no more so than simply turning round to get an item oiff a high or low shelf in the supermarket, or spending a couple of minutes turned slightly away from your buggy while talking to a friend.

GangstersLoveToDance Tue 20-Aug-13 22:52:42

If the baby change is in the disabled toilets, then obviously I use it to change the baby. If I need a wee, then yes, I will take up the extra 20 seconds needed to do that too - rather than go out, queue in the ladies and then enter the whole 'what do I do with the baby' debacle.

People seriously have a problem with this? A quick wee? When you're in there anyway, using the facilities as intended?

I think that's crazy. I do it. I'm not going to patronise anyone by adding 'sorry' to that statement because i'm not. Anyone who seriously opposes that is bvu IMO

5madthings Tue 20-Aug-13 22:53:34

You were fine to leave baby in its 'fish tank' bed at my hospital, the babies have tags,they have just started electronic tagging I think but you have to be buzzed on and off the ward.

I have used numerous drs surgeries and none if them have had those signs.

The trolley sign is about not leaving your baby unattended in the trolley in case it tips over/they fall out. Not because someone may steal your baby.

If you don't want to leave your baby unattended, tho its hardly alone as you are inches away asnd can have the door a little bit open if you want. Then fine don't but do not use disabled toilets, find some other way to go about your business that doesn't inconvenience those with disabilities.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 20-Aug-13 22:54:08

I've been screamed at or just told off many times by people for using a disabled loo weirdly it only happens when I'm with one of my kids,

I don't think any body has a right to demand to know my disability or the kids so I tend to tell them to fuck off or if feeling charitable I say "not all disabilities are visible"

I have a BB as do 5 of my kids. Its perfectly ok for me to use the loo just as it is for one of my disabled children, its also ok for me to use it if it is also a baby changing area and I'm changing a baby.

I also wouldn't even look twice at someone else coming out of the loo because I would be horrified to do the same to someone else because its embarrassing and I'm not clever enough to identify every disability in every disabled person from a quick glance.

I wouldn't know if that mother coming out of the loo chasing a small child was disabled or not.

teacherwith2kids Tue 20-Aug-13 22:55:34

And did I live in the only part of the country where there simply weren't any disabled toilets except those locked with a RADAR key, so the option that so many of you seem to think that you HAVE to use to keep your baby safe wasn't available? And guess what, we managed.... the incidence of baby snatching from the toilets was still, um, zero (baby snatching in hospital ISN'T non-zero, for reasons to do with the mental condition (temporary or permanent) of some of those in hospital, and the babies in hospital immediately following birth are very tiny and very fragile, so leaving them unattended is indeed unwise.)

TerrysNo2 Tue 20-Aug-13 22:58:21

Think I have done this but wedged the door open with the buggy so I had one eye on DS/DD

LittleBearPad Tue 20-Aug-13 22:58:50

So all baby changes were independent of disabled loos teacher. Honestly curious

Wallison Tue 20-Aug-13 23:00:21

GobbySadCase, I think there are some people who just can't stand to see what they perceive as others getting preferential treatment. Despite the fact that it's not preferential but necessary adjustments and provisions in order for them to do things (like go food shopping) that everyone else takes for granted. And also despite the fact that what it amounts to isn't anything particularly exciting anyway. I mean, really, you're getting all jealous about a frigging toilet? Or a parking space?

noblegiraffe Tue 20-Aug-13 23:00:27

That's good for you, 5mad, but I assure you it's not the case at my hospital and my doctors surgery.

Obviously the trolley sign isn't about baby stealing hmm but this is about why mums are cautious about leaving babies unattended.

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 23:00:46

Well that wouldn't be unattended then would it? teacherwith2kids

If you can actually see and touch the buggy.

So it wouldn't be a problem.

This is not a thread where posters have been invited to bitch about "pweshus" mummies. It just asked if ppl were willing to leave their child unattended.
Now anyone who isn't comfortable with that is accused of hysterical mollycoddling and any number of hateful actions against pplwith disabilities.

McNewPants2013 Tue 20-Aug-13 23:01:29

you are told not to leave your baby unattended

So you are with your baby 24 hours a day. If you are cooking, cleaning or having a nap.

I would say there are plenty of times a day a baby is left unattended.

teacherwith2kids Tue 20-Aug-13 23:02:32

Ganstas, I think the position of disabled toilets also designated for nappy changing is anomalous (one of the many reasons why the combination isn't ideal and we should campaign for proper family loos)

If you are taking a child in to change their nappy, then you are using them as intended (though with awareness still needed in terms of timing etc of the needs of other users, who may well be higher priority than you). If you add 20 seconds for your own wee, that's kind of between you and your own conscience.

If your child doesn't need a nappy change, even if you are with them, and you need the toilet, then you can't use a disabled / nappy change combo.

AlwaysWashing Tue 20-Aug-13 23:03:52

The fact that I would not feel guilty about having quick we in a disabled loo rather than leave my children outside a public toilet - which happens once in a blue moon - does not mean I wish to inflict pain or embarrassment on anyone's daughter.

Sorry means just that.

Permanentlyexhausted Tue 20-Aug-13 23:04:16

I've never noticed a baby change facility combined with a disabled loo.

HarumScarum Tue 20-Aug-13 23:04:52

I have no idea what the likelihood of my child being snatched was when she was small enough to be in a buggy. But I never left her outside because she's a bit clingy and would have been genuinely howlingly vomitingly upset. And then I'd have had to deal with the vom and howling for hours later. But as I have two arms and am able bodied I left the buggy outside and took the child in with me. Not really that hard and never needed a disabled loo to achieve... She just sat on my knee or the floor. It was fine.

5madthings Tue 20-Aug-13 23:06:22

My eldest son is fourteen, when he was a baby there weren't many baby changes, boots and mother are had them. Disabled toilets did not have the changing table in there, this is a relatively new thing, crap idea by planners.

Many toilets did not have a baby change, they obviously realized they were needed and for some reason put them into the disabled toilets.

I always went to boots or john lewis is m&s when my elder two were little as they had basby change facilities, or I changed them in the pushchair if no change was available. The disabled toilets were not an option, by the time I had ds3/ds4 there were more and they were in disabled toilets. I don't use them unless totally unavoidable is nappy explosion and it's the only change station. I am able to find and use an alternative, so I do.

Needing to see my baby whilst I pee is not a good enough reason to use a disabled toilet.

teacherwith2kids Tue 20-Aug-13 23:07:08

Emily, the point is that the thread was started because someone said that they would leave a baby outside a toilet in which they were going to the toilet themselves.

That was construed as 'unattended'

I was pointing out that it is not, indeed, truly unattended, and you have confirmed that. So the hysteria was in fact that which turned 'I leave my baby for 30 seconds outside a toilet cubicle, from which i can hear the baby and see the buggy, when i go to the toilet' into 'I leave my baby unattended'

Littlebear, where baby change was provided - not universal - it was usually a mat next to the sinks in the ladies. I carried a portable changing mat wherever I went.

GobbySadcase Tue 20-Aug-13 23:07:25

As much as you have the right to hold that view, Always, others have the right to consider it repellent and selfish.

Y'know... Those of us who routinely have to tolerate selfish bastards making our lives unnecessarily difficult and/or cause a loss of dignity in their actions.

somersethouse Tue 20-Aug-13 23:07:37

Good grief - yes of course I would, with the door open a tiny bit.

LittleBearPad Tue 20-Aug-13 23:09:05

I've never noticed a baby change facility combined with a disabled loo.

Seriously permanentlyexhausted - it's really not uncommon, particularly in restaurants or pubs. Smaller shopping centres too.

GangstersLoveToDance Tue 20-Aug-13 23:09:28

So what about my previous example teachers?

My df using disabled toilets for the dc with no baby change facility in them - but just because the disabled toilet floor is preferable to the gents toilet floor for changing them on? (plus more space etc)

'Allowed' and acceptable or not?

acer12 Tue 20-Aug-13 23:09:33

Wow who invented the toilet police?!?!?
Unless I need an official permit to use a disabled toilet I'm going to use it. Nope I wouldn't leave my child unattended. Ever. Not because I think some sex offender is gonna run off with her, just because I don't want to. hmm

I'm not one of these brave mummy's that think my child will never ever come to harm and that bad people don't exist . I would never let dd be that tiny % that do.

teacherwith2kids Tue 20-Aug-13 23:09:42

Always, you may not INTEND that to be the result - but regardless of your intention, that is exactly what you cause.

MrsDeVere Tue 20-Aug-13 23:10:04

noble I have had five babies and I absolutely dispute that you are told from the minute they are born never to leave them unattended.

What rot.

My youngest is only three so its not like I am out of date with the latest advice either.

Besides, you are not leaving them unattended. You are having a wee a few inches away.
Not going for a wander round Sainsburys whilst they hang out in the car park.

GobbySadcase Tue 20-Aug-13 23:10:11

Sorry. Having intrusive memories of the Science Museum in London where we had people push in so many times for the lifts when they could have used the stairs that DS2 shit himself.

They were actually running and shoving us out of the way with their hands...

LittleBearPad Tue 20-Aug-13 23:11:06

So the flip down changing stations didn't exist? And if there wasn't space you changed them on the floor?

teacherwith2kids Tue 20-Aug-13 23:11:47

Gangster, is there genuinely nowhere else to place a changing mat - in the pushchair, somewhere else nearby (close enough for him to be able to nip back for some hand washing, though wipes are fine too)?

5madthings Tue 20-Aug-13 23:12:00

teacherI pointed out to noble that she could leave her baby strapped in the pushchair outside the cubicle whilst she went to the toilet, or she could ask someone in the bathroom to watch her baby (I have don't this for lots of people who have asked me i suspect they think as a mum with young children its unlikely I would pinch a another one ). So I assume that is why this thread was started. I provided a reasonable solution, one that doesn't involve using a disabled toilet and inconveniencing people.

MrsDeVere Tue 20-Aug-13 23:12:17

teacher ah yes, the foot hooked round the buggy trick. I remember it well smile

TBF to mothers, I think they are also likely to be tutted at by judgy twats if they dare to take their hands off their buggies for a second.

But people talk crap all the time when you have a baby. So its best to ignore the hysterics telling you your baby will be stolen by peedos and/or romanians if you take your eyes off them for a second.

stottie Tue 20-Aug-13 23:12:36

Never.

noblegiraffe Tue 20-Aug-13 23:12:38

MrsDeVere, you might not have been, but I certainly was. I'm not making up the hospital or the doctor's surgery thing. Or the trolley thing. So you can dispute it if you like, but I'm not lying.

GangstersLoveToDance Tue 20-Aug-13 23:13:21

There are several disabled toilets in my town that have no baby change facilities in them. The baby change is in the ladies in these areas. So not 'hypothetical', a genuine situation. Df has and does use the disabled toilet floor.

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 23:14:00

I have to hide this thread now.
I feel so sad at the sweeping generalisations made.
The changing facilities usually are in an accessible loo. Just because I don't leave that loo and then queue for another cubicle after changing my baby does not mean I am causing pain to disabled ppl.

And plenty of public loos have full solid doors so a baby can't be seen.I'm sorry that some ppl have a really rough time of it but I'm not going to stop caring about my PFB or PSB for fear of being accused of being precious and thoughtless or jealous of a toilet.

WestieMamma Tue 20-Aug-13 23:14:04

The worst place I've come across is our local IKEA. The disabled toilet, which has baby change facilities in it, is spitting distance from the cafe. The regular toilets, which also have baby change facilities and some cubicles big enough for prams, are down a corridor about 30 seconds away. I have never been able to use the disabled toilet without queuing behind parents who can't be arsed to walk the extra distance. They have a choice, I don't angry

jacks365 Tue 20-Aug-13 23:14:10

Teacher I think I must live in the same location as you, I can't think of any public toilets where the changing table is in the disabled toilets. A certain chain of pubs has but can't think of another. One set of toilets has a changing room with about 4 changing units in it, separate breast feeding room, special small toilets for young children in the main toilets but no cubicle or room big enough to take a pram into.

MrsDeVere Tue 20-Aug-13 23:14:16

The toilet police acer?
Really?

It is a toilet for disabled people. Are you disabled?

No police needed or even much intelligence to work out what to do.

teacherwith2kids Tue 20-Aug-13 23:14:56

Acer, what do you do with your child while you go to the toilet at home? Do you take them with you? Or are they unattended? Do you sleep with them? Never take your eyes off them when chatting to a friend?

This 'I never leave my child unattended' is just...silly.

5madthings Tue 20-Aug-13 23:15:09

littlebear when my ds1 and ds2 was little that was exactly the case, a few shops had a baby change, most did not. I took (and still do) a little fold up changing mat with me.

These fold down changing tables are relatively new, we survived without them! Imagine that, just like we survived without p&b parking spaces

My youngest is two BTW and so my experience is not out of date.

GangstersLoveToDance Tue 20-Aug-13 23:15:39

No teachers, none that I can think of.

I can't see why df 'should' have to search for somewhere else to change his baby tbh. Maybe he should do it in the carpark? A corner of the shopping centre? The foyer of the Tesco café?

Just so long as he doesn't step foot in that disabled toilet.

Dawndonnaagain Tue 20-Aug-13 23:16:42

The sooner official permits come ,the better, hopefully they will state that the holder. Is a selfish person completely lacking in conscience. Have any of you stopped to consider how difficult the day to day life of a person with a disability is, steps for people who need a chair or crutches, just getting out, some days, trying to use public transport and on top of all of that, some selfish arse makes using the loo difficult too.

soverylucky Tue 20-Aug-13 23:16:51

another one of those threads where I think about what my mother did when things like baby changing facilities didn't exist.

Don't use the disabled loos unless you have too.

I put dd in a sling when I went to the loo when she was tiny. When she was bigger I sat her on my knee. When she was a toddler she stood in the cubicle with me. Now she is at school she goes in on her own but chats to me the whole time. Sometimes when we went out and she was in her pram someone would watch her for me.

noblegiraffe Tue 20-Aug-13 23:16:55

5mad, you provided what you think is a reasonable solution, but it seems there are many on this thread who disagree. Most seem to at least leave the door open, I'm trying to think if that would be logistically possible with the toilet I have in mind (floor to ceiling doors btw). I have a feeling that the doors opened outwards, making it trickier.

MrsDeVere Tue 20-Aug-13 23:17:49

So from the minute your baby was born you were told by who? The midwive who delivered him/her?

Before or after they delivered the afterbirth?

And who said it next? The doctor who discharged you?

Its strange isn't it? I mean five babies the minute they were born the MWs said 'congratulations' or 'put that G&A down'. Not once did they say 'now make sure you never leave that baby unattended MrsDeVere'

Because that would have been weird.

teacherwith2kids Tue 20-Aug-13 23:18:20

Well, I have changed my kids in stranger places, Gangsters. One of the great advantages babies in nappies have, after all, is that you don't need to find a toilet to change them in .. it's the post potty training stage when you know every single public toilet in town intimately... (we used to call it toilet tourism)

auntmargaret Tue 20-Aug-13 23:18:46

Oh Jesus. Leave the buggy. Take the child. Nobody gets hurt.

GobbySadcase Tue 20-Aug-13 23:19:09

Unintended consequences still mean those consequences happen. It doesn't stop them. so you might not mean to cause pain, distress, humiliation but it will happen, and knowing that you'll still continue?

You're sorry we get a hard time? Really? What do you think causes those 'hard times'? In the examples I've given selfish, ignorant shits who don't give a toss who has to suffer as long as they're alright.

5madthings Tue 20-Aug-13 23:19:15

Well if you don't find it a reasonable solution you are welcome to come up with your own solution so long as it doesn't involve using a disabled toilet. Simples.

GangstersLoveToDance Tue 20-Aug-13 23:20:09

If there is no alternative at all teachers, then so have I.

But IMO, in this situation, a disabled toilet is a reasonable place to do it.

MrsDeVere Tue 20-Aug-13 23:20:13

I cannot see why the floor of a disabled toilet is any better to change a baby than on your lap in a corner or in the car or most anywhere else really.

Why do people thing disabled toilet floors have magical powers. They don't repel germs.

They are dirty toilet floors. You might as well change the baby on the floor of by the basins.

rockybalboa Tue 20-Aug-13 23:21:04

Yes. But like has already been said, probably end cubicle with door open if disabled/buggy friendly loo not available

teacherwith2kids Tue 20-Aug-13 23:21:14

Exactly, 5mad. Find a solution without using the toilet you are not allowed to use because you are NOT disabled .... go on. Imagine it is locked. What would you do then? Then do that.

5madthings Tue 20-Aug-13 23:22:06

sovery yep they didn't have many baby changes when my eldest was a baby, we survived! He was changed in the buggy, on grass verges and on park benches, just with the little fold up mat I had. No need to use the disabled toilet.

Use a sling or hold baby or ask someone to watch them, plenty of choices that don't inconvenience others.

curlew Tue 20-Aug-13 23:22:07

Wit outside loo for a nice looking person who isn't in a hurry. Say"would you mind watching my baby while I pop to the loo?" Go to the loo. Come out. Thank random stranger. Go on your way. Sorted.

teacherwith2kids Tue 20-Aug-13 23:22:24

Agree Mrs. I would say that pretty much anywhere is a better place to change a child than ANY toilet floor...

GobbySadcase Tue 20-Aug-13 23:22:46

Oh, and no changing table in the gents?
I remember being at Trago Mills in Newton Abbott. DS1 was a baby, I was pg with DS2 and had severe SPD so on crutches. Before knowing about disabilities btw so standard baby/parent situation.

DH had to do the nappy change, either that or me do it on the floor which I didn't think would go down well. There was no change table in gents, just the ladies. So DH went in there.

LittleBearPad Tue 20-Aug-13 23:22:55

I assumed that's what you did and I've done the same when there's no baby change but when there is I use it whether its in the disabled loos or not.

noblegiraffe Tue 20-Aug-13 23:23:42

MrsDeVere, we were told in our antenatal class. You know, before the delivery.

5mad, I'm afraid that if I were in the exact same situation again, I may well do the exact same thing again. But this thread wasn't about that.

acer12 Tue 20-Aug-13 23:23:44

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

MrsKoala Tue 20-Aug-13 23:24:20

The problem with official permits Dawn, and those pass thingies, is that if you are temporarily disabled you can't access a loo. I have had a lot of knee surgery so sometimes have worn leg braces, had crutches etc and (as said earlier) birth trauma double incontinence. I would not have been considered 'disabled' but still often have needed the use of a disabled loo. It's just a shame we cant all rely on judgement.

MoominsYonisAreScary Tue 20-Aug-13 23:25:14

I just leave them outside the cubicle, I doubt anyone would be able to steal them without me hearing in the 30 seconds it takes to pee.

If you don't want to do this take the baby out the pushchair and into the toilet with you

GangstersLoveToDance Tue 20-Aug-13 23:25:18

Mmm...for a quick wet nappy, yes.

For a screaming and wriggly 5 month old with a huge shitty nappy that's leaking...disabled toilet floor is preferable.

For many reasons...space and privacy being among them.

5madthings Tue 20-Aug-13 23:25:27

Whereas I wouldn't use it as I don't want to inconvenience someone who might need it and who has a much greater need.

Permanentlyexhausted Tue 20-Aug-13 23:25:36

I shall be popping into town tomorrow with the kiddies so I shall take extra care to see if I can find any disabled toilets which are also designated as baby changing facilities. Perhaps I've never noticed them simply because they are disabled toilets and therefore I don't use them. On the other hand I can't think of many ladies toilets that don't have baby changing facilities so perhaps it's never occurred to me to look at the disabled toilets.

Or perhaps the baby changing facilities in disabled toilets are meant for, like, disabled people with babies?

insanityscratching Tue 20-Aug-13 23:25:43

The only time I have used a disabled toilet is when I have taken my disabled son or daughter to the toilet. When I've had a baby in a buggy I have asked someone waiting if they'd mind keeping an eye on them. I've never had anyone refuse and no one has ever attempted to steal them or the pram AFAIK. Such entitled behaviour makes my blood boil tbh

WandaDoff Tue 20-Aug-13 23:25:47

Back in 1997 when DS1 was a baby, most disabled toilets needed a radar key to open them so they weren't really an option.

The toilets at the end of the row in the Ladies were generally the ones that parents with pushchairs used & you'd use the loo with the door open, so that baby could see you & you could see your shopping, which was far more likely to get stolen than the baby if you left the pushchair outside. Not a particularly pleasant experience, but it was that or wait.

You also had to fold the pushchair & carry that, the shopping & the baby, if you needed to get the bus home afterwards.

GobbySadcase Tue 20-Aug-13 23:26:48

Mrs K in those circs you could and should use the disabled.
Acre, try having an 8 year old who you have to watch the ENTIRE time he's conscious as he's probably going to do dangerous stuff that could kill him.

Y'know - same one that shit himself cos people shoved us out of the way to get to the lift...

Emilythornesbff Tue 20-Aug-13 23:28:02

gobby the examples you give are of people shoving your children aside to get into a lift.
I don't think it's fair to suggest that using a shared facility toilet is akin to that.
I can see that would be extremely distressing for you and your children.
But no one here is advocating anything of the sort. Not even close.

WandaDoff Tue 20-Aug-13 23:28:31

Oh by the way, I do take my 4 yr old into the disabled toilets, but that is because she is disabled & entitled to use them.

BlehPukeVomit Tue 20-Aug-13 23:28:48

I left mine outside the loo... It's quicker and even if they cried it would only be for a couple of minutes. The chances of them being abducted must be close to zero in the UK.

I also used to use the disabled loo but i have learnt from my time on Mumsnet that able people should not use the disabled loo and I wouldn't use them now. I am a reformed character grin

I wouldn't have done it in South Africa though. hmm I was more security concious when I lived there.

MoominsYonisAreScary Tue 20-Aug-13 23:28:51

I also think its weird that they told you never to leave the baby unattended, unless it was followed by on a table, on the bed, anywhere else they might fall off

GobbySadcase Tue 20-Aug-13 23:29:02

We've had to wait outside several times... It's the exact same entitled behaviour.

noblegiraffe Tue 20-Aug-13 23:29:14

5mad, if you don't think that imminent shitting oneself isn't a great need, then there's really no convincing you.

GangstersLoveToDance Tue 20-Aug-13 23:30:39

That, to me, is bu Gobby.

I'm not that bothered myself, but I know of quite a few women who would actually be fairly upset to be coming out of a cubicle and confronted with a bloke in the ladies toilets, even if he did have a baby with him.

My nan for instance would probably have a fainting spell. My elderly auntie too. My 13 year old sister would probably go beet red and be mortified...

Isn't that just another situation where you could be accused of putting your own selfish needs before that of another group in society? Slightly hypocritical really.

soverylucky Tue 20-Aug-13 23:30:45

Thinking about it - I hardly ever used baby changing facilities because they were minging - I just used to use the pram.

acer12 Tue 20-Aug-13 23:30:52

Teacher- nope when I go toilet at home she is in chair / rocker in my safe home where no one could go through my bag/pram , try shove my baby's dummy back in ( which happens quite a lot!)

If I did go in a cubicle and shut door and ask random stranger ... And all that... If she started crying while I was mid flow I would prob piss myself trying to get up . It's just not worth the soggy knickers .

CoteDAzur Tue 20-Aug-13 23:32:17

No way. Never left either DC outside a toilet and certainly would have never put them on the floor in the toilet cubicle shock

If I needed to go, we went together into the disabled toilet and changed nappy while we were there. Never saw anyone waiting outside when I left and never saw or heard judginess about this except on MN. Never saw people making long queues in the toilet while leaving disabled toilet empty, either.

I guess is is a UK thing. Where I am, it is understood that handicapped toilets are not exclusive to handicapped people, but rather toilets that handicapped people have priority for, with changing tables in them for small children.

GobbySadcase Tue 20-Aug-13 23:33:13

Not particularly. We checked it was empty first.
More an example of piss poor facilities for parents. That doesn't mean you abuse facilities for disabled people instead, though.

soverylucky Tue 20-Aug-13 23:33:13

handicapped - WTAF???????

GobbySadcase Tue 20-Aug-13 23:34:32

Don't think Cote is in UK. In many places its tankard terminology. Doesn't make it nice, but hey ho.

GobbySadcase Tue 20-Aug-13 23:34:57

tankard standard

BlehPukeVomit Tue 20-Aug-13 23:35:09

I never used baby changing rooms as they always often used to stink. This was a while back though confused and I hope they have changed for the better. I used to use a mat and either the kids stroller or a quiet out-of-view floor.

GangstersLoveToDance Tue 20-Aug-13 23:36:22

As would df before entering a disabled toilet Gobby.

5madthings Tue 20-Aug-13 23:43:32

noble we have said/it has been covered that if someone has an urgent need or temporary disability then that is OK. Its not OK to use it simply because you don't want to leave baby/get someone else to watch them etc.

We are talking about he real toilet use, not emergency situations. Fgs.

If you really were about to shit yourself, and there was a big queue for the other toilets etc then that is an urgent need. That has been covered.

And I have been in that situation, luckily there was no queue so I just used a normal toilet and left baby in pushchair, if necessary I have asked someone to watch them in the buggy. For some rather irritating reason I get the runs every time I have my period, its massively annoying but with five kids life cannot stop sadly.

CoteDAzur Tue 20-Aug-13 23:45:03

It's called toilette handicap&#279; in French. It's almost 1 AM here and my language skills are going downhill blush

jellybeans Tue 20-Aug-13 23:45:28

No i would take DC in.

Ilovemyself Tue 20-Aug-13 23:46:58

If I needed the loo I would use the disabled loo. It's the only place I can fit our triple buggy and on the 1 occasion a disabled person has been waiting outside I was extremely apologetic and they not annoyed in any way.

It's hardly the same as using the disabled loo because you can't be arsed to go to the regular loo.

And are people for real when they say ask a stranger to look after the buggy and children. You do not know who that person is - they could steal from you and god forbid they did take the buggy with children in imaging the uproar - parent left child with a strangera

GangstersLoveToDance Tue 20-Aug-13 23:47:05

What about someone with a mental health issue - anxiety?

What if leaving a baby/babies in a pushchair on the other side of the door would be incredibly mentally distressing to someone?

Are they allowed to use it then?

noblegiraffe Tue 20-Aug-13 23:52:39

5mad, I said I would do the same thing again in the same situation (urgent need) you said you wouldn't. But then said in situations where you are unwell it's ok. Crossed wires, perhaps.

5madthings Wed 21-Aug-13 00:02:29

On this tjrea dthe question is would you leave your baby unattempted even tho they are not really unattemded you have not mentioned the needing to go so desperately that you are going to shit yourself.'ergo we are talking (in the main) about general toilet use.

On the other thread you outlined the urgemnt need which would class as a reason to use a disabled toilet. Hence the confusioni think?

And no I wouldtn unless there was absolutely no choice ie a big queue, I would try asking to go to the front of the queue and if I had to I would she the disabled toilet, but it really would be a last resort. It simply doesn't occur to me to use the disabled toilet as I have no need as I can access regular toilets. Its that simple to me.

Yet lots of people are saying they would use them as par for the course,,as tho having a baby entitles them to do so.

cloudpuff Wed 21-Aug-13 00:33:02

It's a good idea to campaign for more family friendly toilets to be built, and remove the changing facilities from disabled toilets, but sadly, from some of the entitled selfish attitudes I've read on here the last few days, people would still think its their right to abuse the disabled facilities because there is a queue for the changing area

Special circumstances like illness as a one off fine, but Im shocked at the amount who are admitting to using them regularly. I don't have a disability, and don't have anyone close to me who does so you can say I don't know what im talking about, those of you who face these attitudes on a daily basis have my respect and admiration. I can't imagine how hard it must be.

Ilovemyself Wed 21-Aug-13 06:23:22

I love the way people are being called entitled for using the disabled loo. But what are you supposed to do if you need the toilet an the facilities provided do not allow you to take your buggy in.

Sorry, but I am not leaving my children or the contents of my shopping bags unattended. In the time I have been doing it I have caused not one person any issue causing them problems. The only time I have seen someone waiting they were more amused at the fact I was sorry I had held them up.

I use the disabled like I would use the ladies toilet. Very seldomly, only when I really have to and in a way that has as little impact on other users as possible.

How many people fighting to the correct use of disabled toilets on here actually need to use them? I bet most are just like the others fighting someone else's battles. They fight for what they think us right and not what those affected need.

And for those of you that are actually affected I would politely ask how often this is a problem for you. You are the people I will listen to

Never in rl have i heard such outcry over using a disabled loo!

ilovecolinfirth Wed 21-Aug-13 06:43:18

Just hold baby whilst going to the toilet or use disabled. I wouldn't leave a buggy outside the cubicle.

TheBleedinObvious Wed 21-Aug-13 06:48:22

No

I go to the end cubicle, put the buggy in front of it to create a barrier of sorts and leave the door open. I do the same for change rooms at shops (I do ask the attendant first if there is a larger one to use and if this is ok).

Am not comfortable leaving a baby/toddler alone at all.

TheBleedinObvious Wed 21-Aug-13 06:52:02

I also talk loudish to dc so people don't think the baby+buggy have been abandoned and come and investigate blush

In my area the baby change is in the disbled toilets so if you can use them for that reason there isn't really any difference. They are intended for the disabled & for families and aslong as you are not holding up a disabled person then i don't see the problem.
Eyes are more likely to rolled at mothers who leave their children unattended.

It's a small risk but quite simply it isn't a risk worth taking for the sake of a pee.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 21-Aug-13 07:06:21

Ilovemyself...it was a problem for us just last weekend.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 21-Aug-13 07:07:40

Thank goodness there are people like cloudpuff around thanks

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 21-Aug-13 07:12:22

What happened at weekend:

DH couldn't get in to change DD as disabled toilet was full of parents and there was queue.

She had huge screaming meltdown.

Meanwhile I had to sit and listen to woman at next table criticising DD and DH because 'she isn't even small and she is screaming, how awful'

So reading people blithely talking about using the disabled toilet is depressing to say the least

MrsDeVere Wed 21-Aug-13 07:46:55

noble
Again, been to ante natal classes a fair few times myself. NEVER been told that I must never, ever let my baby out of my sight.
Because that would be stupid.

I cannot believe that you run your life around something said in an ante natal class.

If you came out of a disabled toilet and found someone desperately waiting what would you say?

'the lady told me I was allowed'

hmm

Utter rubbish. Its just more justification like the 'what if someone was so mentally ill they couldn't leave their child' type argument.

Its just desperately trying to make yourself right.

If someone is worried about leaving their baby I have no problem. Its fine to be like that. Its understandable, specially with your first.
But to think those feelings overide the needs of someone with an actual disability is selfish and entitled.

As has been discussed, there are ways round this.

Its just people are determined to behave as if they are helpless in the face of the monumental challenge of taking a pee whilst in charge of a child.

What do people do at home?

I mean, if you leave your child unattended someone could break in and snatch them. I am pretty sure more children have been removed from their own homes than from public toilets.

Lambsie Wed 21-Aug-13 07:51:24

I think it is ok for anyone to use the disabled toilet if they are really desperate to go bit this should be a rare occurence. The disabled toilet is the only place I can change my disabled son and he is now getting to the age where it is the only place I can go if I am on my own with him. If you have a buggy you can use the end toilet like I used to.

Stampstamp Wed 21-Aug-13 07:59:20

I leave my DD outside the cubicle in a buggy and wee quickly!

Ilovemyself Wed 21-Aug-13 08:03:42

Fanjo. It does depend on the disabled loo vs disabled loo / baby changing facilities.

If it is the former, those queuing should have let you in first. If it was the latter then I think having to queue is fair, although if you could see someone had a child in distress you would hope that others would allow you in ahead of any queue.

I base my comments on never having seen a queue for the disabled loo, and never having had an issue. Even in my islets city centre.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 21-Aug-13 08:06:29

You think it's fair that disabled people have to queue and don't have priority if it's also baby changing facilities?

Seriously?

Jings (channels scottishmummy)

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 21-Aug-13 08:07:40

And because you haven't seen a queue there never is one?

I can't argue with attitudes like this.

If you have read our stories and still hold them, well, it's up to you

Ilovemyself Wed 21-Aug-13 08:08:40

MrsDeVere. I agree with you to a point. But you can hardly liken leaving your child alone in a public space with leaving your child in a different room at home.

And it's different being 30 secs for a pee or however long it takes for the other ( I work with someone who is never less than 15 minutes). I guess I also have the advantage of not needing a cubicle to pee, so that issue has never been there for me.

End cubicle, pushchair right outside door (although door very firmly shut grin) so I can see the wheels. Bizarrely I take my bag in with me!

Ilovemyself Wed 21-Aug-13 08:10:20

Fanjo. What attitude. I have NEVER had an issue and as I have said, I would always make way for someone whose needs are greater than mine no matter what the circumstance.

Ilovemyself Wed 21-Aug-13 08:13:09

Sorry Fanjo. What I meant to say is I have never seen a queue. As I have said, if there was and it was a disabled only loo of course I would give them priority.

MrsDeVere Wed 21-Aug-13 08:14:32

If you look at it logically you can Ilove

If you look at actual figures on child abduction if makes perfect sense doesn't it?

I have been looking and I have not come up with a single case of a baby being abducted from a toilet.

I might have happened but I cant find it. If it had happened recently in this country we would all know about it.

melika Wed 21-Aug-13 08:19:34

How does anyone know if you are disabled or not? I have used them rightly or wrongly. I have one kidney and need to go quickly. No one can tell this and is not classed as a disablement.

In answer to OP, I probably have left DC outside cubicle with the buggys wheels firmly in front of door so I can see the wheels and it is the quickest piss ever!

curlew Wed 21-Aug-13 08:32:38

"From the minute your baby is born, MrsDeVere, you are told not to leave your baby unattended. At the hospital we had to push them around in their little tubs, take them with us to breakfast etc, on pain of being told off by a midwife.
When I signed up baby with the doctor, again, signs everywhere saying DO NOT LEAVE YOUR BABY UNATTENDED.
I took baby to the supermarket today. The trolley had a sign on it with a mum turning her back on her baby with a big cross through it.

Not really a surprise that mums are reluctant to leave their baby out of sight in a public place then, really."

But that's nothing to do with baby snatching. It's to absolve the organisation concerned of responsibility if the baby falls out of the trolley or whatever. Health and safety legislation.

Emilythornesbff Wed 21-Aug-13 08:38:16

So because child abduction (or harm from a stranger) is rare, it's not worth bothering about.

I think ilovemyself is right.
I would always let someone whose needs are greater than mine go ahead of me. I don't believe that means I shouldn't use an accessible loo if that is the safest option for my DCs. Especially if that's where the changing facilities are.
Disability or needing to use accessible facilities is not a black and white issue. If I go out with my friend who does have a "blue badge" my need for a loo in an "emergency" is likely to be far greater than hers. If a disabled loo was the only thing available then I would use it. but I am not disabled so obviously Would be attracting much criticism as my pelvic floor is(as yet) not visible.

Being reasonable needn't be complicated. it's just about seeing who's around you, who is waiting, whether someone looks stressed. Help them out, that's what I do.
It's unfair to make unfounded accusations of disabilism or hurting children towards someone just because they use an accessible lavatory occasionally.
I don't pop into the disabled loo just because I cba to wait for a cubicle.
It's all about context.

<berates self for not hiding thread>

noblegiraffe Wed 21-Aug-13 08:45:07

I cannot believe that you run your life around something said in an ante natal class.

I don't. Idiotic to suggest that I do. Not wanting to leave my baby out of sight in a public place is apparently quite common, antenatal classes or no.

littlemisswise Wed 21-Aug-13 08:48:06

Pumpkin does it say on the door of the disabled toilets in your area that they are meant for families too because they have the baby change facilities in there?

WRT the situation Fanjo is describing, of course her DH and DD should have taken priority.

Ilovemyself Wed 21-Aug-13 08:48:31

Abdication is probably the least of my concerns, although it is still there. And just because it doesn't happen doesn't mean it won't.

The theft of belongings though is quite real so leaving anything unattended is not wise.

LittleBearPad Wed 21-Aug-13 08:51:21

Fanjo. It.does depend on the disabled loo vs disabled loo / baby changing facilities.

If it is the former, those queuing should have let you in first. If it was the latter then I think having to queue is fair, although if you could see someone had a child in distress you would hope that others would allow you in ahead of any queue.

I don think so, sorry. Baby change facilities are co-located with disabled facilities yes but I don't think they have equal priority. If I arrived at the loo door at the same time as someone else I would always check if it was ok for me to go in first and wouldn't assume my/DD's need was greater than theirs.

BlehPukeVomit Wed 21-Aug-13 08:52:36

Child abduction of a child in a pram who's Mum (or Dad) is a couple of feet away on the having a wee is SO RARE that it isn't worth bothering about. That is correct.

Have any posters found a single example of it happening in the UK?

Choking would be more of a realistic thing to worry about. BTW I didn't leave my little kids in the car nor would I have left them unattended elsewhere but in the confines of a public loo while I was peeing - the risk is minuscule. You do lots of other things every day that have more risk attached to them - driving for example.

TBH I would be more concerned about 'older' children using public bathrooms alone.

candycoatedwaterdrops Wed 21-Aug-13 08:59:27

Again, we're back to square one - how do you know someone's needs are greater than yours? They might not want to advertise it, it's embarrassing for some us and we just don't want to announce it to the world either.

It would be much easier if Fanjo could have slipped into the toilet with her little girl last week. Her story just proves to me that we need to further promote the social model of disability. It's never ever the person with the impairment that is the 'problem', it's how society views people with disabilities.

curlew Wed 21-Aug-13 09:14:28

Take buggy into main bit of loo. Look round for kind looking person who doesn't appear to be in a hurry. Say "Would you mind just watching the baby while I pop to the loo?" . Pop to loo. Thank random stranger. Problem solved.

Anything else anyone would like my help with? grin

MrsMook Wed 21-Aug-13 09:16:56

I'll do whatever is most practical in the set up on offer. I've done the door open, buggy blocking routine. My local supermarket is the disabled/ baby changer as the arrangement of the pair of doors means that I can't get the pram/ trolley into the ladies. Even if I had a desire to leave the buggy/ trolley unattended, there is no space to leave it there. If a disabled person was queuing after me, I'd offer them priority (assuming my shattered pelvic floor can hold on).

Using a smallish standard cubicle on Guide camp with a 3m old in a sling and 2yr old standing around was a little squishy.

Emilythornesbff Wed 21-Aug-13 09:18:08

We're not back to square one though. Square one was when the op asked if ppl would leave their child unattended.
Then the thread was hijacked.
I missed fanjo's description of her situation so can't respond to that.
But each situation is unique. Just like each person.

If a loo is occupied it could be by someone who has a severe disability, or a parent changing a baby's nappy, or a cm needing the loo and not wanting to leave her small charges unattended.......

The result is the same. Sometimes ppl have to wait.
It is generally possible, I think, to make a reasonable assessment of need of ppl waiting for a loo.

LittleBearPad Wed 21-Aug-13 09:20:14

I'd probably be very british and say 'oh you go first' and see if they took me up on the offer. I wouldn't need a reason.

If they said thanks and went in I'd assume their need is greater than mine. If not then I'd say thanks and go in myself. I would not require a medical history smile

LittleBearPad Wed 21-Aug-13 09:21:06

World peace Curlew grin

Ilovemyself Wed 21-Aug-13 09:26:04

Curlew. That's fine if you are happy with leaving your child with a sstranger but I am not. Abduction isn't the only concern

EspressoMonkey Wed 21-Aug-13 09:36:40

My friend parked her buggy outside the end loo and had a wee with the door open a jar. She was PG with her second DC. Mid wee her buggy silently wheeled off. She paniced and darted out of the loo, knicks at ther ankles, support tights at ther ankles to chase after the child kidnapper who had stolen her toddler.

Of course it wasn't a real child snatcher but someone elses's pre schooler who wheeled her buggy away round to the sink room whilst his DM was in the loo. Friend had soaking wet knicks and support tights and had to go home. She never did leave her buggy unattended again.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Wed 21-Aug-13 09:37:26

If the baby change facilities are in the disabled access toilet, and you need to change your baby, fine (although I really think they shouldn't be in their). If you need a wee but your baby does not need changing, use the normal cubicle. Prop the door open an inch so you can still see the baby, or close it, or leave it open, whatever.

This does not need to be a complicated issue. People are only getting their knickers in a twist about the idea of leaving their child outside the cubicle because they wrongly believe they have a right to use facilities that are for disabled people. I'm not talking about one off cases of the runs or other urgent need (in which case I would ask the people at the front of the queue if I could go first, and treat disabled access toilet as last resort).

The best analogy I can think of is perhaps if you were waiting for the only toilet, and a gaggle of teenage girls were in there trying on clothes (because they didn't want to queue for the changing rooms, or they couldn't fit all their bags in the changing rooms) and because of that you didn't get to the toilet in time. That would probably piss you off because it is entirely avoidable. If you had to wait because other people were using the toilets that were intended for their intended purpose, then it would still be upsetting but at least it wouldn't have been because some entitled idiot was misusing the facility.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Wed 21-Aug-13 09:37:45

*there

MrsHoarder Wed 21-Aug-13 09:39:20

I wouldn't be comfortable with it either Ilove. But nor do I think the disabled toilet is there for that reason. So I shrug, block the door best I can with the buggy facing me (DS barges into the bathroom at home now anyway), bring my bag into the cubicle fully and just hope no-one decides to look around the door. No-one has yet (and I have perfected fast toilet trips).

My right to privacy is less important to me than DS's safety. That's me making a sacrifice, not me forcing a sacrifice on people who already have a harder life than I do.

candycoatedwaterdrops Wed 21-Aug-13 09:49:36

"Then the thread was hijacked."

The thread was not hijacked. It was a thread about a thread anyway and posters starting saying they'd use the disabled toilet.

Disabled people campaigned to be able to use the toilet in public, if people feel so strongly that their babies are at risk, then they should do the same.

teacherwith2kids Wed 21-Aug-13 10:05:49

Having a small grinding teeth moment about those people who want to wheel their pushchair into the disabled toilet BECAUSE THEY ARE WORRIED THAT THE BAGS HANGING FROM THE PUSHCHAIR WILL BE TAKEN.

If you didn't have the pushchair, you would be carrying the bags, and you would take them into the toilet with you. So do the same - having a baby doesn't make you incapable of carrying a bag or two. And if you're worried about the fact that you need to take a child capable of standing out of the pushchair and into the toilet with you (as i have said previously, there is a really very small number of months when you genuinely need to leave your child in the pushchair - once they can stand, they come in with you) and so will run out of hands, buy a backpack-style bag.

Ilovemyself Wed 21-Aug-13 10:10:29

Isn't the world full of such unreasonable people!

As I said, I have never had an issue for queues for the disabled loos. And as I have also said, as a general rule of courtesy I would say after you to a person that arrived at the same time as me.

Is all about common sense. But as normal the argument is being shown as noone but disabled people use the facilities or everyone uses them as a free for all.

Come on - let's use a bit of common sense. No to situations are the same and shouldn't be treated as such.

Ilovemyself Wed 21-Aug-13 10:14:18

Ok teacherwith2kids. I will take 2 17 month olds and a 5 month old out of the buggy, even if they are sleeping.

And the numerous bags. And the items in the carrier in the base.

Instead of being sensible and simply nipping in and out of the disabled loo where there is no queue.

Emilythornesbff Wed 21-Aug-13 10:21:36

I think it has been hijacked. A bit.
Most ppl said that that they would eiher leave door open, or use shared facilities. Some said they wouldn't worry about child being out of sight or reach for such a short time. Fair enough, each to their own.

But that wasn't enough was it?
It became an arena to bitch about ppl being overly precious about their DCs (v common on aibu) or sweeping accusations were made about barging in front of disabled children and making them soil themselves or to be in pain and distress.
There has been much comment that dismisses the idea that a disabled loo or shared facility might be used to prevent a baby from being left unattended without causing trauma to a more deserving person.

littlebear I too would offer the person behind me (if this were ever to occur) to go ahead before me. I can imagine that being a reasonable approach.
Of course someone might come along while I'm in there but I take less than 60 seconds to use the loo so they'd have to be pretty fast to appear from a previously empty corridor or lobby. And then, given that I would've at least half way through by the time they arrived they would need to wait for an absolute maximum of 30 seconds. Probably more like 10.

MoominsYonisAreScary Wed 21-Aug-13 10:22:13

I think its about time they stopped putting baby changing in disabled loos, they did it in all the toilets on the caravan site we were on a few months ago. I only used it for really bad poo explosions and it was disgusting. Nappies all over the place and the smell!

Why on earth someone with a disability who can't choose which toilet they use should have to put up with that I don't know

WestieMamma Wed 21-Aug-13 10:25:30

And for those of you that are actually affected I would politely ask how often this is a problem for you. You are the people I will listen to

Most of the time. I rarely get to use the disabled toilet without having to wait for someone with a pram.

The thing is, having a disability puts me in a minority group. Having a child puts you in a majority group. The chances of you encountering a disabled person waiting are slim. The chances of a disabled person encountering an able person with a pram are high.

I have a very limited time on my feet. When that time is used up, there's nothing left and I'm completely immobile. If I have to wait, it's difficult and it means I have to go home earlier and most likely not be able to do what I need to do that day. I can't spend an hour wandering round the shops. I get to go in 1 or 2 only. Waiting for any period of time may well be the straw that breaks the camels back. Waiting for another disabled person has the same result, but it cannot be avoided. Waiting for an able person who is just choosing the easiest option is incredibly frustrating.

Emilythornesbff Wed 21-Aug-13 10:25:41

Of course they shouldn't have to put up with a filthy loo and nappies being left "all over the place"
Who is saying anyone should?
Noone. Just exactly nobody.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 21-Aug-13 10:25:54

Some posters are not showing themselves in a good light without anyone needing to bitch about them tbh

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 21-Aug-13 10:26:54

By being the very definition of entitled.

jacks365 Wed 21-Aug-13 10:32:30

Fanjo I'm so sorry to hear what happened with your daughter flowers.

Putting baby change facilities in disabled toilets was a bad move and it appears to have given out the wrong message.

teacherwith2kids Wed 21-Aug-13 10:34:20

Ilovemyself,

I suppose I just come at it from a different mindset. As I have said time and again, where I live and have lived, the disabled toilet option was simply not available - all were locked with RADAR keys. So I never developed the idea that I COULD use disabled toilets, or that I might be justified in doing so. I simply developed processes and ways of handling things that meant that I managed to use the available 'normal' public toilets successfully.

I can see that if you have always used the disabled facilities with your children, then you would feel that it is impossible not to use them - because you have developed processes and procedures that work on the assumption that those facilities are available to you.

Yes, to use 'normal' public toilets with small children, you have to rethink and replan a little. And if you had to, because other facilities were physically barred to you, you would do that rethinking and replanning. Because the bar to using disabled toilets is, where you live, a 'moral' one (you are not allowed to use those toilets if you are not disabled, they are not provided for you) then you have to decide to do the rethinking and replanning, rather than being forced to IYSWIM.

teacherwith2kids Wed 21-Aug-13 10:38:32

Jacks, I think that is a very true statement. What I did was absolutely 'normal' for all my friends and peers, because none of us (except the ones who were disabled or had disabled children) had the option of using the disabled toilets and had never developed any expectation that they might be able to.

The 'I can use it to change a nappy' is just part of a gentle slde to 'I can use it with any small child in an emergency because I've used it up till now' to 'It's so much easier, I'll use it as a matter of routine' to 'Aren't they all dual use now?'.... which is the nub of the problem.

MoominsYonisAreScary Wed 21-Aug-13 10:39:11

They shouldn't have to put up with changing facilities being in the disabled toilets full stop, regardless of how clean they are.

littlemisswise Wed 21-Aug-13 10:41:54

Isn't the world full of such unreasonable people!

Isn't it just? It seems to be full of over entitled parents who can not understand why 'just nipping in' a disabled toilet is wrong!

Dawndonnaagain Wed 21-Aug-13 10:43:35

Ok teacherwith2kids. I will take 2 17 month olds and a 5 month old out of the buggy, even if they are sleeping.

And the numerous bags. And the items in the carrier in the base.
Good, because I managed with newborn twins and a 19 month old.
In fact I didn't start using the disabled lavatories until dd was old enough to know when she needed to go, she was about eight by then. And do you know what, sometimes we had to wait. Sometimes she got dirty looks because she can get out of her chair to go, in fact she can walk (very) short distances, and sometimes people had a go at us for using them when she could use the others, those with no grab rail etc.
I still get dirty looks on occasion, but the one I recall the most was when dd was using some disabled loos last year and a young mum came out, looked at dd, waiting patiently in her chair, looked at the baby she'd just pushed out of the disabled loo and said to baby: Well, you won't end up like that will you, sausage, we look after you!
DD did ask her if it was safe to use her whole vocabularly in one sentence!

Emilythornesbff Wed 21-Aug-13 10:47:26

fanjo just ready our post about last weekend. Sounds very upsetting and stressful. And unkind comments are horrible.
I don't get the bit about the disabled loo being " full of parents" so I am guessing (correct me if I'm wrong) that a woman with a child/ren emerged from the loo while you were waiting.
In a shared facilities loo this is not unreasonable.
Then there was a queue. Was this the only loo? Or we're you of he opinion tat they were all undeserving opportunists?
your DD was clearly distressed.
If I was in a queue for a loo I would have strongly encouraged you and she to move ahead of me.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 21-Aug-13 10:50:21

It was not the only toilet. But the only one we can change DD in.

Emilythornesbff Wed 21-Aug-13 10:53:09

Sorry. I see that it was the only one you could use.
I was trying to get a picture of what others were up to.
Because from what you're saying a line of parents we're waiting to use the shared facilities and no one let you go ahead.
That seems unreasonable and unkind.

Emilythornesbff Wed 21-Aug-13 10:54:28

I still think that every situation is different and must be judged on its own merits.

WestieMamma Wed 21-Aug-13 10:57:00

I still get dirty looks on occasion, but the one I recall the most was when dd was using some disabled loos last year and a young mum came out, looked at dd, waiting patiently in her chair, looked at the baby she'd just pushed out of the disabled loo and said to baby: Well, you won't end up like that will you, sausage, we look after you!

So do I. The one I remember most was actually a dad who knocked on the door, shouted through the door at me to hurry up, and then had a go at me when I came out for taking so long when he needed to change his daughter's nappy.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 21-Aug-13 10:58:12

Sadly people just assume DD is just a heinous brat who is 9 and still.has tantrums (she is 6 but looks 9)

It actually wasnt a huge deal.as we are used to it..sadly.

But people should be sure they are really understanding the need of others before judging a situation on what they think are its merits.

Having an NT baby is just not like being disabled.

Dawndonnaagain Wed 21-Aug-13 10:59:23

Funny, isn't it WestieMamma, it's invariably the young able bodied parent.
<sighs>

jacks365 Wed 21-Aug-13 11:04:10

The problem is emily that they are not really "shared" facilities they are disabled toilets that had a changing table put in because its the only place that had the room.
It would never occur to me to use disabled toilets just because I have a pram but my eldest is 19 and when she was a baby it simply wasn't an option due to radar keys. My dd stayed outside the cubicle as for changing I'm very good at doing changes on my knee. I do wonder whether age of children has a bearing how many of those saying its fine to use disabled have older children?

littlemisswise Wed 21-Aug-13 11:10:18

What are "shared facilities"? They might have a baby changing table in which means you change a baby's nappy in there. It doesn't mean they are family toilets that you all traipse in to use once the baby is toilet trained!

cloudpuff Wed 21-Aug-13 11:12:00

When its suggested that a child in distress, in the middle of a meltdown and her father, should wait in line behind mums wanting to change their babies then I don't think it's the bitching that makes them look bad. Yes you can argue that you may have let the Dh through to the front had you been there, but nobody did, which is disgusting IMO. I'm sorry for that fanjo.

To the people arguing that they have never seen a queue etc doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and I'm sad that a lot of people think its ok based on the fact that they haven't seen the distress this can cause for themselves.

I wonder how many of the people displaying these attitudes will be the first to complain when a non parent parks in a parent and child space.

We all think our children precious but its not a disability or hardship to have a child, yes it's hard to manage everything but you know, if baby changing and disabled toilets didn't exist you would still be able to go shopping our whatever and would to find a way round it, no access to a toilet means many disabled people can't go anywhere, that's may sound extreme but its not that long ago that this was the case.

K8Middleton Wed 21-Aug-13 11:19:37

Why those of you with special powers to see if a disabled person is waiting to use the loo you are occupying cannot use them to watch over and fend off those baby-knappers I don't know.

<solves thread>

cloudpuff Wed 21-Aug-13 11:31:37

I the age of the dc is a small part jack, but the bigger problem is attitude, my dd is 8 and it never occurred to be that the disabled facilities are an option, I am 33 and the same thing never occurred to my mum, she took valuables and three kids in the cubicle with her, I asked my siblings who bith have two small kids under 4 and they both said they wouldn't do it, they use the regular toilets.

What do people do when at events where there are only porta toilets, the disabled versions of those are a lot smaller, we go to lots of country show and I'm curios as to what the people who need the room purely for pram space do in these cases?

Ah now real shared facilities are a real treat. The best I saw had two toilets, two chairs, a changing table and a sink, in a room big enough for a big pram, and a large door to get through.

Bliss.

Lambsie Wed 21-Aug-13 11:35:58

My fil would never 'jump' a queue even if it meant he might wet himself. He shouldn't be put in this position. I often have to wait to change my disabled son so there certainly are people waiting outside disabled toilets.

DropYourSword Wed 21-Aug-13 12:07:10

WOW. Just wow - I had no idea this was an issue!

Playing devils advocate here - can we ignore the disabled toilet argument for a minute - but some people here are very determined that there is no risk in leaving the baby outside the cubicle / with a stranger because there's no precedence of baby snatching. I wonder what their reposnes might be if someone did do this and their baby was taken! I think there would be a helluva lot of judgements against that mother for leaving her baby unattended. As, for example, they have done for a very unfortunate mum a few years ago who left her children unattended in an apartment with friends regularly going back to check on them. The McCanns had to cop a LOT of flack for their actions. Just a thought.

And also - what do DADs do - I would have thought it would be much more uncomfortable for them to wheel a buggy into the mens and poop with an open door etc?

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 21-Aug-13 12:11:15

The poor dads sad

jacks365 Wed 21-Aug-13 12:11:43

Drop your sword there is no comparison between leaving a child outside a cubicle with the door open and leaving children in an apartment that is out of sight. Some of us do not class a child outside a cubicle as unattended. Wonder what the nspcc view of it would be.

noblegiraffe Wed 21-Aug-13 12:13:58

I just read that a month ago a 2 year old was taken from a supermarket trolley (abductor was shot dead). Maybe those signs on trolleys aren't so daft.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 21-Aug-13 12:22:39

The signs are to avoid kids falling out
Not warning you to be paranoid a nasty man will snatch them

DropYourSword Wed 21-Aug-13 12:24:59

Hi jacks365 just to clarify I'm not making a comparison between the two in that way. What I was meaning was that many people think there isn't a risk because we aren't aware it has happened before. But if a child did then get taken whilst outside a cubicle I imagine the mother would be in for a barrage of abuse.

I agree with Drop

DM let go of the trolley when DB was in the seat. It tipped over and he still has the scar <rugged>

jacks365 Wed 21-Aug-13 12:28:03

I would expect the mother to get sympathy not a barrage of abuse.

noblegiraffe Wed 21-Aug-13 12:28:21

hmm I know. But if you read this thread you'd think that baby snatching never happened. And it's not the only risk of leaving your baby unattended.

K8Middleton Wed 21-Aug-13 12:33:10

I think you need a few more facts with that statement nobelgiraffe. Firstly, who was the abductor? Most children that are snatched are taken by a family member. Secondly, where did that occur because we don't shoot unarmed people in this country.

A child in a buggy just outside the loo door for 30 seconds is not unattended.

I really think some of you more hysterical people exaggerate. Do you never leave your child alone in their bedroom to sleep? Do you not leave your child at the end of the aisle in the trolly at the supermarket when it's busy? Do you never leave your child in the buggy at a table in a cafe and nip to get some sugar? Do you never park your child on the bus in the buggy space? Because I see these things routinely (not the sleeping one but you get the drift).

Emilythornesbff Wed 21-Aug-13 12:36:01

Most children are taken by a family member.
So abduction by a stranger doesn't happen.
It's ok folks. Nothing to worry about. What a relief!

DropYourSword Wed 21-Aug-13 12:36:20

jacks I would hope she got sympathy, but I wouldn't bet my life on it!

acer12 Wed 21-Aug-13 12:42:40

It all ways makes me wonder about women that's like to scream and shout that children are perfectly safe. No one going to ever harm/abduct them. I wonder if the children's parents of the children that have been addicted/harmed felt like that.
Yes admittedly it is a small % but I'm not that cocky that I just smugly assume it will never happen to mine.

It' seems like the in trendy thing to mock parents who are concerned about there kids. I don't care if the %
is oooooooo1% I'm not gonna risk my my child. Why on earth would you?????
I would truly love to live in these areas where crime dosnt exist. I think it's called in the landofstickyourheadinthesand or let's be trendyandblamethemediaforeverythingmaaaaaan street.

BlingBang Wed 21-Aug-13 12:42:48

People that wouldn't have sympathy in that case would be arseholes and therefor don't count.

noblegiraffe Wed 21-Aug-13 12:43:24
AlwaysWashing Wed 21-Aug-13 12:47:18

Emilythornesbff
You make the most sense, I'm with you!
I can count on one hand the number of times I have used a disabled loo since DC were born but have and will again rather than leave them and providing I was not causing distress (pain or embarrassment) to anyone else. I'm pretty sure the loos used were probably dual purpose as they'd have been shopping centres or restaurants.

BlingBang Wed 21-Aug-13 12:48:03

It says the mother turned her back, nothing could probably stop a craved loon from grabbing a child whether the mother was holding it or whatever. That child wasn't unattended.

MrsHoarder Wed 21-Aug-13 12:49:00

Acer what is stopping you from peeing with the door open? That's not putting your child out of sight at all.

Ilovemyself Wed 21-Aug-13 12:50:18

Fanjo. As I have said, every situation is different. And as I said, if I have never caused an issue what is the problem.

If you are not causing anyone an issue what is the problem? I would always make way for someone who needed to toilet.

If there was an issue I would not use the facilities mentioned but if there is not I will use them. Just because there are aeseholes out there that are rude, abusive, and that don't give a damn doesn't mean we are all like that.

I feel bad for your experience at the weekend but I don't not believe I would ever put you in the same position and I would certainly never treat you as some have verbally.

DropYourSword Wed 21-Aug-13 12:51:48

That child got snatched when it was attended. So I can therefore understand mums concerns about leaving baby unattended, even just for 30 seconds in public ie closed toilet door.

Ilovemyself Wed 21-Aug-13 12:52:15

Emilythornebff. We agree for once lol.

And always washing. I agree.

I am fine with not using them if there is a problem, but if there is not then why the fuss

acer12 Wed 21-Aug-13 12:52:56

I did in neros on Monday ! grin I'm not fussed doin that. But if there was a que, baby was crying, I was bursting that was the only cubicle and it was empty for just incase some one else needed it , of course I'm going to use it.

K8Middleton Wed 21-Aug-13 13:16:49

Emily how does saying most abductions are by a family member mean "so abductions by a stranger don't happen?"

Do you not understand what the word "most" means? And where has anyone suggested stranger abductions don't happen? I have read most of the thread.

Dawndonnaagain Wed 21-Aug-13 13:21:53

What some of you seem unable to apppreciate is that your just in case is a disabled persons absolute necessity.

usualsuspect Wed 21-Aug-13 13:22:32

If a sign on a toilet door says 'Disabled' then I wouldn't use it.

I'm not disabled,therefore I'm not entitled to use it.

It's not hard to understand is it?

K8Middleton Wed 21-Aug-13 13:26:26

nobel that child was not unattended. Nor was it an attempted abduction but I'm not sure that makes a difference really. So at best... a 1:7 billion instance.

So we still have zero known instances of child abduction while parent has a wee and several known instances of disabled people going through avoidable stress and humiliation due to other people placing their own temporary, minor needs above others who have to live with a disabling condition every single day that mean managing a double buggy and armfuls of shopping can only happen in their dreams.

teacherwith2kids Wed 21-Aug-13 13:26:42

Those of you who feel the risk of the baby being abducted in a public toilet (many of the ones you have mentioned have been in large shops etc), from a pushchair 6 inches from you and in full hearing - and often in sight of the wheels - in the 30 seconds needed to go to the toilet is so unacceptably large that you will choose instead to use a facility that you are not entitled to use....

Do you drive?

Do you cross the road?

People's perception of risk is SO odd.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Wed 21-Aug-13 13:29:12

It really is teacher

DropYourSword Wed 21-Aug-13 13:31:08

There are loads of really interesting scientific studies that show us we base decisions on really flawed logic. It's actually human nature!

Cleanandclothed Wed 21-Aug-13 13:34:54

Have only read OP (came over after reading the other thread). Yes I would. Most toilets have a door into the toilet and handwashing area and then further cubicles. Assuming I could fit the pushchair through the first door I would enter, and then either use a cubicle, possibly without locking the door but shutting slightly (would try to be able to see buggy if not baby if at all possible) or, if lots of people were going in and out, I would choose someone, make plenty of eye contact, clock what they are wearing, and ask them to watch my baby, and then use the cubicle.

If there wasn't the first door, or I couldn't fit the buggy through, I would be a bit more discerning about who I asked (lady with children being my first choice) or go somewhere else.

ProudAS Wed 21-Aug-13 13:38:21

Why is using disabled loo with buggy any different to parking buggy in wheelchair space on bus?

I would hope that someone who needed the facility due to disability would have priority but if they don't then it may as well be put to use to make a parent's life easier.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Wed 21-Aug-13 13:39:50

Because you can see instantly if someone needs the wheelchair space and you can then move the buggy. If you are in the toilet, how do you know someone hasn't come along and needs to use it while you are in there?

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Wed 21-Aug-13 13:41:02

Oh, and there are a disturbing number of people who would refuse to move their buggy out of the wheelchair space on a bus, because 'fuck your inability to get anywhere without this one space, I was here first with my special snowflake'.

littlemisswise Wed 21-Aug-13 13:42:55

How can "you always make way for someone who needed the toilet" if you are already in the disabled toilet that they need to use because they have a disabilty or medical condition?

People using these facilities when they don't have a medical condition or disability are causing those with disabilities and medical conditions problems and issues!

ProudAS Wed 21-Aug-13 13:45:10

If you're going to be in and out of the toilet quickly you won't keep a disabled person waiting long.

If you're on a bus you've got to faff around removing child from buggy whilst folding it, stopping older sibling from playing with shopping etc so while it may be immediately obvious that a wheelchair user needs the space it takes a little time to make it available for them.

Doctorbrownbear Wed 21-Aug-13 13:45:52

I wouldn't unless I could take her in with me, I usually go when I change her nappy as they tend to be in the disabled loos.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Wed 21-Aug-13 13:51:34

There is a difference between waiting to get on a bus and waiting to use the toilet.

K8Middleton Wed 21-Aug-13 13:53:35

Surely being able to see through disabled toilet doors or sense people with disabilities is an ability not a disability?

ProudAS Wed 21-Aug-13 13:57:55

So what if the baby changing unit happens to be in the disabled loo? Should parents use their esp to tell when a disabled person is coming and vacate immediately with poo covered bare bummed baby?

WestieMamma Wed 21-Aug-13 13:58:13

I think it's pretty sad that the people on this thread with disabilities/family member with disabilities are pretty unanimous in their experiences that able parents using the disabled toilet causes them problems, but nobody is listening sad