to think that women shouldn't need 'safe havens'

(56 Posts)
skylerwhite Wed 07-Aug-13 13:52:45

The Lord Mayor of Melbourne is proposing safe havens for women. This smacks of women ghettos to me. What a stupid, stupid, ill-thought out and offensive policy.

NeoMaxiZoomDweebie Wed 07-Aug-13 18:08:15

YANBU it's highly offensive. Why can;'t the whole fucking CITY be safe?

runningonwillpower Wed 07-Aug-13 18:10:44

I'm curious to know the converse of the policy.

Stray out of the 'safe haven' and you're fair game?

NeoMaxiZoomDweebie Wed 07-Aug-13 18:12:20

Exactly Running

SofiaVagueara Wed 07-Aug-13 18:16:06

Everywhere should be safe for women to go. But in reality they are not.

I have to say if something happens like you lose your purse and need to be picked up or need a safe place to meet people it could be useful to know there is somewhere that you will be totally secure.

LRDYaDumayuShtoTiKrasiviy Wed 07-Aug-13 18:18:27

Well, if you mean the city should be safe, of course you are right.

But since it isn't, I think this is sadly perhaps a sensible measure.

I know I would feel reassured.

Tee2072 Wed 07-Aug-13 18:18:39

What a stupid idea.

LRDYaDumayuShtoTiKrasiviy Wed 07-Aug-13 18:19:33

(I do think it is properly shit it is needed, don't get me wrong. Cos it's a bit like saying 'but why did you go outside', isn't it?)

GetStuffezd Wed 07-Aug-13 18:23:16

Fucking hell. Why should women have to cower away in "safe havens?" Why can't we just go about our normal lives in the knowledge that those who harm us will face the full force of the law?

You can just see some vile defence lawyer questioning some attack victim in court, can't you? "You chose NOT to travel via safe haven, Madam - why exactly was this?"

flatpackhamster Wed 07-Aug-13 18:23:30

NeoMaxiZoomDweebie
YANBU it's highly offensive. Why can;'t the whole fucking CITY be safe?

Name me a city - any city, in the whole of history - that was 'safe'.

There's your answer.

runningonwillpower Wed 07-Aug-13 18:23:32

But LRDY, women are half the adult population. Their needs/safety are not 'special'.

LRDYaDumayuShtoTiKrasiviy Wed 07-Aug-13 18:28:27

You're not surprising me, running. sad

Sorry, I'm just in one of those defeatist moods.

But it's true - and I think, for goodness' sake 'when was any city safe?' is not a valid question. That isn't how we cured diseases that ravaged the population. We should do the same here: yes, spaces aren't safe for women, but they should be.

I do see that, and I agree.

Saffyz Wed 07-Aug-13 18:28:51

YANBU. Women are entitled to go wherever they like and to be safe.

skylerwhite Wed 07-Aug-13 18:30:49

I don't think the answer to violence against women is corralling them all into open-air pens. It's so outrageous. Women are equal citizens in Australia - they should be able to go anywhere. And certainly should not be encouraged to remain within certain zones of the city. What's next - a curfew? Such misogyny.

LRDYaDumayuShtoTiKrasiviy Wed 07-Aug-13 18:31:32

And in answer to flatpack, I would say Nippur. Or Memphis. Or Athens. Or course, those cities were only ever safe for certain very lucky men.

So why shouldn't we aspire to more?

flatpackhamster Wed 07-Aug-13 18:36:11

LRDYaDumayuShtoTiKrasiviy

And in answer to flatpack, I would say Nippur. Or Memphis. Or Athens. Or course, those cities were only ever safe for certain very lucky men.

So why shouldn't we aspire to more?

Could I have a spaceship then? After all, we're aspiring.

The whole premise is ridiculous. What's even more ridiculous is the idea that you can make cities 'safe'.

LRDYaDumayuShtoTiKrasiviy Wed 07-Aug-13 18:41:53

Well, as you can doubtless tell, I'm half agreeing with you.

But I am doing that and feeling very sad.

I think we can agree it is horribly sad, isn't it?

I mean, I am pretty upset that it's so normal that we can't expect cities to be safe for women. I think that's horrible. And it's not just women - black men, and gay men, and all sorts of other groups face the same thing. It's actually a minority of people who feel safe in any public area. Now that's really sad, surely?

McNewPants2013 Wed 07-Aug-13 18:45:13

Nobody is forcing a women to use the safe havens, but there are routes that are being watched and if women feel safer using those routes I really don't see the issue.

LRDYaDumayuShtoTiKrasiviy Wed 07-Aug-13 18:46:53

Well, isn't there an issue if there are areas where women aren't safe?

I do think it is good - practically - if there are areas where women will know they are safe. But there should be more than that.

McNewPants2013 Wed 07-Aug-13 18:49:22

I know more could be done, but its a start.

flatpackhamster Wed 07-Aug-13 18:49:40

LRDYaDumayuShtoTiKrasiviy

I think we can agree it is horribly sad, isn't it?

Sad that anyone would attempt to make this a gender issue, yes. Aren't men statistically far more likely to be the recipients of violence? The old 'Friday night fight' cases are almost all men. A quick browse through the A&E stats for a weekend would corroborate that.

I mean, I am pretty upset that it's so normal that we can't expect cities to be safe for women. I think that's horrible. And it's not just women - black men, and gay men, and all sorts of other groups face the same thing. It's actually a minority of people who feel safe in any public area. Now that's really sad, surely?

I think that if you want somewhere to be safe for people, you have to filter the people that are allowed in that space. If you try to build a society that says 'people should be like this' you'll fail and fail horribly. If you try to build a world which recognises the limitations of humans and builds to mitigate their excesses, you might have more success.

skylerwhite Wed 07-Aug-13 18:53:38

This seems to have stemmed from a horrible rape and murder of an Irishwoman in Melbourne last year. She was abducted from an area in which there was loads of CCTV. CCTV didn't stop her killer or keep her safe.

LRDYaDumayuShtoTiKrasiviy Wed 07-Aug-13 18:56:03

flat - but it is a gender issue. You've explained it yourself. You do get that men are a gender, right? confused

Violence is almost always gendered.

It is the single biggest factor in seeing how violence works.

We really need to target it on this basis -and, shortly after that, we need to look at race, and economic status, and all sorts of other features.

It is terribly sad that you think the answer is to filter society - what do you do with the rest of society?! What do you do when you have the women, and the black men and women, and so on? All those people you talk about as if it's ok for them to be victims - how do they escape being beaten up?

This is a real question. Honestly: where do you imagine they would go? Because you say you'llnfind somewhere 'safe' - but where? Is it a ghetto? If it is ... now how is that going to work?

I think instead of thinking how well safe spaces will work for the minority, we need to start thinking, does the majority need a huge rocket under its arse?

skylerwhite Wed 07-Aug-13 18:57:06

I think that if you want somewhere to be safe for people, you have to filter the people that are allowed in that space. If you try to build a society that says 'people should be like this' you'll fail and fail horribly. If you try to build a world which recognises the limitations of humans and builds to mitigate their excesses, you might have more success.

What do you mean? Not let men into these spaces? Women-only spaces? Or somehow make allowances for the fact that it is overwhelmingly men who commit violence - against other men and against women. How exactly do you do that?

LRDYaDumayuShtoTiKrasiviy Wed 07-Aug-13 18:57:58

Btw - I would say, one of the hugely important reasons for thinking of men as a gender is to look at what can happen to black men. A lad I grew up with, who is amazing and hard working, has fallen foul of this. He just happens to be male and black.

flatpackhamster Wed 07-Aug-13 19:00:13

LRDYaDumayuShtoTiKrasiviy

flat - but it is a gender issue. You've explained it yourself. You do get that men are a gender, right? confused

Violence is almost always gendered.

In that a gender is involved???

It is the single biggest factor in seeing how violence works.

For marxists, yes.

We really need to target it on this basis -and, shortly after that, we need to look at race, and economic status, and all sorts of other features.

For marxists, yes.

It is terribly sad that you think the answer is to filter society - what do you do with the rest of society?!

I didn't say it was 'the answer'. I said it was the only way to achieve a non-violent place.

What do you do when you have the women, and the black men and women, and so on? All those people you talk about as if it's ok for them to be victims - how do they escape being beaten up?

Yes, because it's only evil white males what do the hitting.

This is a real question. Honestly: where do you imagine they would go? Because you say you'llnfind somewhere 'safe' - but where? Is it a ghetto? If it is ... now how is that going to work?

That's my point. Your fantasy of a safe place is unachievable, so you might as well forget it and start working on my spaceship.

I think instead of thinking how well safe spaces will work for the minority, we need to start thinking, does the majority need a huge rocket under its arse?

I think you need to stop reflecting everything through the distorted prism of far-left feminism.

skylerwhite Wed 07-Aug-13 19:02:40

It's all the fault of those pesky marxists and far-left feminists, clearly. hmm

LRDYaDumayuShtoTiKrasiviy Wed 07-Aug-13 19:02:54

flat - sorry, I don't quite follow you? confused

What did you mean exactly?

LRDYaDumayuShtoTiKrasiviy Wed 07-Aug-13 19:04:05

I've got to apologize - I'm sorry, I don't know anything about Marxism. If that's your person belief I totally respect it, but I'm afraid I can't really follow it.

skylerwhite Wed 07-Aug-13 19:05:18

I think flatpack is using marxist as a term of abuse, LRD.

skylerwhite Wed 07-Aug-13 19:07:21

Flatpack Friday night fights, as you put it, are intensely gendered.

LRDYaDumayuShtoTiKrasiviy Wed 07-Aug-13 19:09:20

Ah, ok. confused

Well, sorry, I am not a specialist in Marxism, even as a term of abuse, so flat you might need to find someone else who is into that.

Personally I just tend to look at this from a feminist perspective. It is probably very under-theorized if you are very academic, so please don't feel you have to explain the Marxism stuff to me!

I just meant, I didn't quite get why women needed safe havens overall. I agree with skyler that it is a sad indication of how our society works, that this exists. As a rather sadly defeated feminist, I can (unfortunately) see that in practical terms, a safe space may be useful. But I wish to goodness we didn't need it.:-(

skylerwhite Wed 07-Aug-13 19:10:37

Why are you feeling so sadly-defeated, LRD?

LRDYaDumayuShtoTiKrasiviy Wed 07-Aug-13 19:13:09

Oh, I'm fine skyler, just didn't want to be rude on your thread, and I realized I'd managed to see so.

I agree that this seems like a step backwards.

Do CCTVs actually deter crime, or does it just mean that they are likely to find the perpetrator?

skylerwhite Wed 07-Aug-13 19:19:10

LRD: Be rude wherever you want to be rude! I'm not the thread police smile flowers

skylerwhite Wed 07-Aug-13 19:20:10

breathe in the case which seems to have prompted this step, the CCTV helped to identify the perpetrator. Not sure if they actually deter crime in the first place.

LRDYaDumayuShtoTiKrasiviy Wed 07-Aug-13 19:22:56

You're not?! shock

But yes ... I do stand by what I said.

TattyDevine Wed 07-Aug-13 19:27:42

Look, I don't know how I feel about this. I am from this City, I grew up there and actually compared to London, though smaller, in some ways it is a far scarier place.

I was there for 3 weeks last August without children or husband and there are some serious social problems there involving drugs, poverty and general perversion.

Of course this will happen in any big city to an extent but considering Melbourne's population it is worrying.

There is a bigger issue of course but when I think about my mother finishing work and walking from the concert hall to Flinders St Station to get the train home I feel happier knowing they are looking out for her.

I don't know. I totally agree women shouldn't need a safe haven or special treatment in theory, if in practice that didn't put them in danger.

TattyDevine Wed 07-Aug-13 19:29:10

I am lets say past my prime and I got hassled to all hell walking through the city centre and certain inner city areas even in broad daylight. In some ways, it is a very uncouth society and we should be proud that the UK is as civilised as it is, even if there is scope for improvement.

Saffyz Wed 07-Aug-13 19:46:07

How about rounding up all the men who see women as second-class citizens and keeping them in a "dangerous haven"?

LRDYaDumayuShtoTiKrasiviy Wed 07-Aug-13 19:52:59

tatty - I absolutely see what you are saying.

But it seems not me that really none of us are disagreeing?

You want your mum to be safe.

I want my lovely SIL to be safe,

But god knows ideally we all want everyone to be safe.

My feeling is, if this move is the fist of many - great! I think we need this and we need many more, and eventually we need everywhere to be safe for women. Of course we do.

Meantime, frankly, I think anything that is safe for women is good. If it's treated as a ghetto for women, we can get up in arms about it, too.

TattyDevine Wed 07-Aug-13 19:53:40

If that were possible Saffyz (the ones who are not already in prison) that'd be ideal. At least CCTV will make it more likely they end up in the "safe haven" that is prison.

TattyDevine Wed 07-Aug-13 19:54:37

Totally LRD

skylerwhite Wed 07-Aug-13 19:58:23

Well, none of us are disagreeing apart from the marxist-feminist-phobic posters...

I can see that practically it's a good thing if women are safer, but I think it sends a really dangerous message to women - that there are only certain areas they can safely go into, and that they are somehow to blame if they stray outside these areas and are attacked.

TattyDevine Wed 07-Aug-13 20:06:26

Yes, it would be a great shame if that were the culture it created Skylerwhite

NeoMaxiZoomDweebie Wed 07-Aug-13 20:24:27

If they want to install more CCTV then DO IT ACROSS THE CITY not in sections! Then they can victim blame I suppose though..."Oh well we do provide safe zones...she just wasn't IN one when she got raped/beaten up/murdered.....

I'm not sure that I feel much safer knowing that they have CCTV to catch the person who attacks me. I just don't want to be attacked int the first place.

TattyDevine Wed 07-Aug-13 21:40:58

Totally agree breatheslowly. However CCTV isn't just after the fact. There are armed police officers swarming around these built up areas like flies (all police are armed in Melbourne, different debate as to whether this is good or not, not necessarily saying it is or isn't). And these CCTV cameras are manned live - so you might be in the process of being attacked and a minute later 4 armed police turn up and arrest the assailant...not too shabby, in the absence of people behaving nicely.

TattyDevine Wed 07-Aug-13 21:44:17

I know a lot can happen in 30 seconds or a minute, but its better than being dragged into a bush in the middle of nowhere and being forced to testify with little evidence 18 months later. Honestly, I don't know, I think you'd almost have to be a victim before you really knew how to feel about all this, and I haven't been, and I have no idea who has or hasn't been, but I think while there are predators (male or female) in the world there is no ideal world. If something terrible comes from this initiative it should be tackled. If it simply means a reduction in crime in an area, great. If it means victim blaming, that will be tackled. If it means more safe areas, so be it. I don't know...the whole thing is kind of disappointing really. The need, as opposed to the proposed "solution". I think we are united on that...

TattyDevine Wed 07-Aug-13 21:51:00

Apart from thinking it shouldn't need to exist, does anyone actually disapprove/disagree with the the Night initiative? http://www.reclaimthenight.org/

TattyDevine Wed 07-Aug-13 21:51:44

Total link fail

reclaim the night

TattyDevine Wed 07-Aug-13 21:52:56

Its basically all about women being able to go out at night wearing what they want, where they want, at whatever hour they want, like men do, without being either victims of crime or victim blamed if they are victims of crime. It started in the UK.

zatyaballerina Wed 07-Aug-13 22:03:14

They could easily make the city safer by locking up violent men for longer and punishing even low level harassment severely so that aggressive men don't get the chance to escalate their behaviour. Sexually aggressive men shouldn't be allowed out on the streets, at some point they will rape or try to, stick an electronic monitor on them and let them stay at home. Their parents should house, feed and have to supervise them in public as punishment for not raising them properly, that alone would scare more bad parents into teaching their boys right from wrong.

Rapists are made, not born.

TattyDevine Wed 07-Aug-13 23:06:26

Hahaha Zaty, well done you for raising 1000+ well behaved boys. You should write a book!

Trust me violent men are locked up in Melbourne, often for longer than in the UK, due to the lesser burden on the penal system. (Ironic seeing Australia started out as a penal colony)

As I said earlier, it is much easier to lock up violent men if you have evidence (as provided by CCTV footage and identification) than if it does not exist in the first place.

ayahushca Fri 09-Aug-13 11:47:50

I think it's pretty ludicrous tbh, and would be funny if it wasn't so ghastly. It sounds like they're proposing a female version of Mecca fgs.

I think it's alarmist, divisive, and bad for both sexes. Cities are generally getting safer for women (and men), there's still improvement to do but there will always be a few horrrible incidents and murders in any society, it's not a sign of a system failing, it's a tragic fact of life. They should work on making the whole city safe for women. But this sends out a terrible message: "All is lost women! Renounce the streets! Into the Femdome and seal the locks!" Is there going to be an entry zone where you need to scan your genitals to pass or something, and those with dicks get turned back? Checkpoint cockblock?

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