to not be able to stop thinking about this disgusting status?

(93 Posts)
vinisque Thu 01-Aug-13 18:57:21

A friend on Facebook (now deleted) wrote an unbelieveably offensive status yesterday evening. All my friends on Facebook are real friends who I believe are decent people so I was shocked and enraged at this.

"Fucking slag at co-op wouldn't serve me because I didn't have id... I hope she saves up all summer for a holiday with the girls and gets the shit raped out of her by the locals. Bitch."

It made me so angry I felt sick. I commented on the status saying "what a disgusting thing to wish on someone". Then I immediately deleted him. I'm annoyed at myself for deleting him because I can't see a reply or see if the status has been deleted. To be honest I feel like he's gotten away with it and I should have told him what a complete piece of shit he is. I can't stop thinking about it, what should I do?

RobotHamster Thu 01-Aug-13 19:01:34

Is he someone you're likely to see in real life? If I was due to see him soon I'd explain why I deleted him and why its such a disgusting thing to say.

sweetiepie1979 Thu 01-Aug-13 19:05:36

That's horrible, could his account have been hacked? I'd ask him outright and then break the friendship.

What a vile pig. You did the right thing.

Cutitup Thu 01-Aug-13 19:08:35

There seems to have been so many vile and violent social media messages directed at women recently.

It's so disgusting.

You did the right thing. Bravo.

Mia4 Thu 01-Aug-13 19:09:07

YANBU, though I'd probably have reported him to facebook first for an offensive post.

sorrelthemop Thu 01-Aug-13 19:14:55

The many vile and violent social media messages aimed at women recently are due to the widespread and easy access to pornography. But hey, people think porn is harmless and doesn't objectify women so what are we all moaning about? hmm

This is our liberal society......enjoy smile

vinisque Thu 01-Aug-13 19:19:20

I was in the process of reporting but I was on my phone and its crap, so I just posted the comment. His statuses are usually funny if somethings made him angry. Some wankers found it funny but I didn't. I feel like a need an apology or I need to make him cry or spit on his face and throw a drink on him.

runningonwillpower Thu 01-Aug-13 19:25:29

It's not just social media and misogyny.

Some people seem to believe they have an entitlement to over-reaction to the slightest perceived insult.

My inoffensive husband recently witnessed an act of mindless vandalism and was told 'why don't you fuck off and die of cancer'.

Ezio Thu 01-Aug-13 19:31:07

My friend works for the co op, she'd be spitting fire at that comment, its digusting to even think i.t, never mind say.

OrthodonticUrticaria Thu 01-Aug-13 19:40:35

I'm shocked just this week since Laura Bates was on air on the Jeremy Vine programme on Radio 2 about her Facebook Group "Everyday Sexism"
She aqcuitted herself beautifully on the show, but has since been th e target of vile threats just like this one. Not just off one crazy psycho, but from lots and lots of crazy psychos, threatening to rape her and degrade her in the most horrific ways with the most violent language I've seen.
Don't you have any mutual friends who could support your views on the status, if it is still there? (and can also let you know what else has been said?)
"Like" the Everyday Sexism page and post your former friend's comments there. You will get lots of support.

flatpackhamster Thu 01-Aug-13 19:54:49

sorrelthemop

The many vile and violent social media messages aimed at women recently are due to the widespread and easy access to pornography.

Doubtless you can back up that extraordinary claim with some serious evidence.

But hey, people think porn is harmless and doesn't objectify women so what are we all moaning about? hmm

This is our liberal society......enjoy smile

Given the alternative to a 'liberal' society, I'll take my chances with this one.

ageofgrandillusion Thu 01-Aug-13 19:54:55

Not convinced its porn sorrel. There will always be - and always has been - wankers like this about, thing is social media has given them the opportunity to vent their spleen to a much wider audience. Personally i think it is about the broader dumbing down and increasingly moronic nature of society.

WafflyVersatile Thu 01-Aug-13 19:58:23

Nothing especially dumbed down and moronic about this period of society either.

There was no golden age.

flatpackhamster Thu 01-Aug-13 20:00:36

WafflyVersatile

Nothing especially dumbed down and moronic about this period of society either.

There was no golden age.

THIS

MrsKoala Thu 01-Aug-13 20:07:04

That's so awful. How long have you known them? What an odd reaction.

Runningonwillpower - i agree, lovely exMil was in the post office and she didn't move along the line quick enough (there was about a metre between her and the person in front) and the man behind her said aggressively 'i'll separate you from your breath if you don't move up'. What a sinister thing to say over something so minor.

Sallyingforth Thu 01-Aug-13 20:28:04

There have always been disgusting, offensive people. They just didn't have any way of spreading offensive material except for very limited means like phone calls or letters.
Now there are social media that allow them to send their filth far and wide. I don't see that there is any solution to it apart from avoiding the media.

sorrelthemop Thu 01-Aug-13 20:33:05

'serious evidence' hmm

Just look around you. We're rapidly heading back towards the 70s in terms of attitudes towards women.

FridaKarlov Thu 01-Aug-13 20:37:08

I agree with Sallyingforth- in the past creeps would have had to have sent poison pen letters or make crank calls. It's just easier for them to be vile now, and to find like minded idiots who'll cheer them on.

WafflyVersatile Thu 01-Aug-13 20:45:35

It's not possible for me to compare by just 'looking around' me because in the 70s I was a small child. It's not a scientific approach and does not not give accurate results.

Things are changing for the better. Women have more rights and more freedoms but there is resistance to this. Not all men were sexist pigs in the 70s and now there are still plenty who are.

In the 70s you'd be laughed at by most men if you suggested a husband could rape his wife. Not so much now.

sorrelthemop Thu 01-Aug-13 21:20:26

I was around during the 70s and trust me we're heading back there regardless of our so called rights. Men's resistance to these rights is as strong as ever and they now have the internet by which to attack us.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Thu 01-Aug-13 21:22:37

Thanks for sharing that. Welcome to MN

kali110 Thu 01-Aug-13 21:59:00

Harsh to blame it on porn. Keep seeing people saying blokes who look at or watch porn are sexist, rapist or gf beaters. This doesnt apply to all blokes!my partner looks at it, none of it is illegal or nasty and he is the biggest softee. He hates rapists and blojes who hit women he thinks they are scum. Hes type of bloke who would step in and help a stranger. What about the women who watch porn, does all the negetive views apply to them also?
There are always going to be nasty blokes out there, some just born that away and nothing to do with porn.

WafflyVersatile Thu 01-Aug-13 22:00:36

Well no I won't trust you because your perception does not equal evidence.

ShellyBoobs Thu 01-Aug-13 22:05:42

Men's resistance...

What? All of them?

hmm

CorrineFoxworth Thu 01-Aug-13 23:00:41

The lowest will always find their own level. You try to avoid them. Can't always be done though.

I know not to read the comments on Youtube but I was innocently watching a tattooed man having an abscess drained for purely professional reasons wink but couldn't help seeing, "oh man, would've been much funnier if your tat was a chick and he sliced her punani" angry

flatpackhamster Thu 01-Aug-13 23:27:07

sorrelthemop

Just look around you. We're rapidly heading back towards the 70s in terms of attitudes towards women.

What rot. Who nowadays denies a woman's right to a job? How many claim a woman is only fit to run a household? Who states that a woman's isn't capable of holding any job she chooses? Who nowadays would claim a woman couldn't be PM?

They did in the 1970s.

kali110 Thu 01-Aug-13 23:29:51

Just another bandwagon to jump on. Last year it was page 3 and now its porn. I personally have no problem woth women getting their boibs out for money. Its their life, their choice.

ImperialBlether Thu 01-Aug-13 23:33:51

Umm flatpack, Margaret Thatcher was PM from May 1979, so that was in the 70s.

I don't remember people thinking women were only fit to run a household then, either.

Are you thinking of the 50s?

sorrelthemop Fri 02-Aug-13 00:24:20

No, these days we have it far easier. We get to go out to work to support our families and pay for the family home and we get to do most of the housework too hmm

There's currently a poster on one of the other boards whos husband is blaming her for the failure of their relationship because she's dared to put on a bit of pregnancy weight and poor hubby expects better than that hmm

Yes we've come so far haven't we? Don't make me laugh, we're no further forward.

AmandaHoldenmigroin Fri 02-Aug-13 02:37:57

Are you sure this person hasn't been spammed?

thebody Fri 02-Aug-13 06:08:19

yes if it's out of character for him then check he actually did write this.

it's very easy to write a status in someone else's page.

BadLad Fri 02-Aug-13 06:47:15

Who nowadays would claim a woman couldn't be PM?

They did in the 1970s

Sorrelmop, you refuted this with the fact that:

Umm flatpack, Margaret Thatcher was PM from May 1979, so that was in the 70s.

She herself said that there was no chance of a woman being PM in her lifetime in 1973.

Fallout1977 Fri 02-Aug-13 08:17:38

Totally agree with sorrelthemop. I've been saying the same for years!

Tabby1963 Fri 02-Aug-13 08:37:14

If it is out of character, are you sure he hasn't been fraped by one of his mates?

BadLad Fri 02-Aug-13 09:06:45

Oops, I mean, ImperialBlether

Ogg Fri 02-Aug-13 09:13:04

In any sort of repressive or controlling society it's inevitably women who are repressed and controlled. Be careful what you wish for.

vinisque Fri 02-Aug-13 11:27:42

It wasn't out of character, not that I would expect a status like this but sadly I can't say I'm that suprised. He's big on the "why do girls do this why do girls do that?" Shitty statuses. Where he pretty much slags women off in general, I should have deleted him ages ago. He is a bit of a twat.

Crinkle77 Fri 02-Aug-13 11:36:00

Agree with you flatpackhamster. I know loads of people who have watched porn at some point in their lives and have not turned in to vile pigs.

kali110 Fri 02-Aug-13 12:09:37

Op id deleted him. Sounds like a knob.he gives bad name for blokes. Probably thought he was big hard man and would impress his mates instead looks like a moron.

Minifingers Fri 02-Aug-13 12:13:13

Those of you who don't see porn as a problem in relation to rape and misogyny, go and have a look at a site like RedTube - free, widely accessed porn. There are multiple videos on this site the showing women being hit, spat on and choked during sex. In fact there is a whole 'category' of free videos on this site for people who enjoy watching the abuse of women. This is not some little obscure site where you have to give credit card details to access - this is a very popular free porn site which any teenage boy can access.

I looked once out of curiosity after someone mentioned the site on mumsnet and now I can't get the images out of my head. I'm glad I know that this vile stuff exists - it has made me think about protecting my sons and my daughter from it. I shake at the thought that my two little boys will grow up and look at rape porn, or that my dd might have a relationship with a man who enjoys it.....

Excessively violent, rape-fuelled fantasy has become mainstream in porn now - just remember that when you're waving your libertarian flag. And hope your children don't end up in a relationship with someone who has spent years wanking to images of women being hit and choked. sad

OctopusPete8 Fri 02-Aug-13 12:52:29

That's is a seriously unhinged status, sounds like they are out for shock value too.

flatpackhamster Fri 02-Aug-13 13:06:38

Minifingers

Those of you who don't see porn as a problem in relation to rape and misogyny, go and have a look at a site like RedTube - free, widely accessed porn. There are multiple videos on this site the showing women being hit, spat on and choked during sex. In fact there is a whole 'category' of free videos on this site for people who enjoy watching the abuse of women. This is not some little obscure site where you have to give credit card details to access - this is a very popular free porn site which any teenage boy can access.

Well, I'm sure you can show me good, reliable evidence indicating a direct link between rape and porn. There ought to be a clear statistical link between rising rates of rape in the UK and access to pornography. As porn has become more commonplace, rape must be increasing. I can't find any such stats but you must know of them?

I looked once out of curiosity after someone mentioned the site on mumsnet and now I can't get the images out of my head.

Interesting. I've seen Redtube and I can get it out of my head. Have you often had these problems with viewing adult content and not being able to forget it?

I'm glad I know that this vile stuff exists - it has made me think about protecting my sons and my daughter from it. I shake at the thought that my two little boys will grow up and look at rape porn, or that my dd might have a relationship with a man who enjoys it.....

I'm glad that you know it exists too, and that you are planning to do something about it. Content filtering is an obvious action and something any responsible parent would do.

Excessively violent, rape-fuelled fantasy has become mainstream in porn now - just remember that when you're waving your libertarian flag.

No it hasn't. It remains a niche interest, as a casual glance at the number of videos for each category would indicate to you.

And hope your children don't end up in a relationship with someone who has spent years wanking to images of women being hit and choked.

"Act now to ban X, lest your children become victims!"

The cry of the tyrant through the generations.

nkf Fri 02-Aug-13 13:08:38

What a disgusting human being he sounds. Well and truly dumped.

kali110 Fri 02-Aug-13 15:18:12

What about non offensive porn?porn used to spice up a couples livelife? That is also wrong. Def not saying that that redtube site isnt offensive and i dont even want to look but the women agreed and im sure some women get kicks out of it. Im just wondering why women who eat h it dont get mentioned, only men?
Im sick of hearing porn is reason loads of men rape. How about a load of men rape cz theyre sick and twisted and nothing to do with the porn industry. Not all men rape and absuse because of porn.i know a lot who think its wrong and who warch porn.

Minifingers Fri 02-Aug-13 15:18:56

Flat pack - you sound angry and defensive.

By your reasoning child porn would be ok, as long as children weren't used in the making of it (such as in Hentai) Because watching people having sex with children won't desensitise us as a society to this sort of exploitation or encourage people to want to act out their fantasies?

Minifingers Fri 02-Aug-13 15:21:36

And maybe you can watch women being brutalised and forget about it because you've become desensitised to it, as have many people who use porn.

Scrounger Fri 02-Aug-13 16:17:43

Minifingers, I don't see your trail of logic in accusing Flatpack of agreeing to child porn if no children were used in it.

Scrounger Fri 02-Aug-13 16:24:23

OP, well done. I cannot understand why people are like this, just so angry at everyone or at the slightest hold up. I find the abusive sexual violence in his, and a lot of peoples, language depressing.

PomBearArmy Fri 02-Aug-13 16:28:30

Trigger warning, don't read if you don't want to read violent sex details

My ex brought porn into our relationship but I was horrified by some of these sites. Another major and very popular site shows videos of rape. I saw one. A teenage girl, possibly underage, lying on a mattress while several men had sex with her, the title said it was 'real rape' and the comments were from morons saying stuff like 'my girl would love to get raped like that'. It was awful.

And how can you know that every woman in amateur porn chose to do it and is getting paid? In any amateur video you don't know what happened beforehand, you don't know if someone was threatened or coerced, or if you are watching rape - and just don't care to think about it because your impending orgasm is all-important. In the time I was watching porn sites with my BF I didn't see many women look remotely enthusiastic, several did what they were supposed to do, but they looked anxious and unwilling.

In fact the last video I ever watched was a middle aged woman lying on a table with lots of men having sex with her. In her interview beforehand she was brazening it out, but when it was happening she looked upset and afraid and totally overwhelmed. And going by the 'directors' comments, that made it even better.

Oh, and there was another gangbang video (my ex's favourite if you've noticed the theme) of a teenage girl who started crying in pain. A woman appeared, laughing and encouraging her to carry on, like she would be letting her down if she stopped and it was no big deal, and she had to continue to lie there wincing while men had very rough sex with her - like they wanted to see how much she could take and if they could make her cry again.

But people have happy orgasm associations with porn, so who cares how many women get raped?

Fallout1977 Fri 02-Aug-13 16:38:34

I know of a bloke who gets off on 'pretend' raping his wife (fully consensual on both sides) and although I actually suggested it I never tried it myself as I don't fancy it at all. But he was asking for ideas on how to spice it up and I had heard of some couples who did it, tbh I didn't think he would go for it especially not his wife either but they love it.
I will try most things once but deffo not that.

kali110 Fri 02-Aug-13 21:36:01

Not everybody in porn is being raped or havent agreed to it though!i have also heard of people both men and women being turned on by rape ( def not one for me!) but it cant all being put in same bracket. Thankfully iv never come accross any of these sites! We shouldnt get rid of all porn just because of this. If man or woman wants to watch it iv got no prob aslong as its not with animals or kids. I personally wouldnt like any type of rape or violent porn either

Not all women in porn are raped - but some are, and they just blend in with the 1000s of other videos. This girl looks reticent for some reason and it's boring? Just click on another thumbnail. Porn enables the abuse of women and children, and sometimes men.

flatpackhamster Sat 03-Aug-13 08:11:00

Minifingers

Flat pack - you sound angry and defensive.

By your reasoning child porn would be ok, as long as children weren't used in the making of it (such as in Hentai) Because watching people having sex with children won't desensitise us as a society to this sort of exploitation or encourage people to want to act out their fantasies?

And maybe you can watch women being brutalised and forget about it because you've become desensitised to it, as have many people who use porn.

Remarkable. I ask for some actual evidence of your stance, and you accuse me of being a rapey child molester. I don't think any more evidence is needed of the intellectual vacuity of your position.

Fallout1977 Sat 03-Aug-13 08:52:10

Pornographic material is not just a bit of harmless fun. By portraying women as dehumanised sex objects they fuel attitudes that underpin discrimination and violence against women.
Pornographic material sends the deeply harmful message that treating women like sex objects is normal and acceptable.

Just sayin...

flatpackhamster Sat 03-Aug-13 09:44:34

Fallout1977

Pornographic material is not just a bit of harmless fun. By portraying women as dehumanised sex objects they fuel attitudes that underpin discrimination and violence against women.
Pornographic material sends the deeply harmful message that treating women like sex objects is normal and acceptable.

Just sayin...

Repeating that ad nauseam doesn't make it true.

SoniaGluck Sat 03-Aug-13 11:35:07

I'm curious, flatpack. Are you actually saying that pornography depicting violence towards women does no harm?

If so, do you have evidence for that?

Or have I misunderstood your position on the subject?

kali110 Sat 03-Aug-13 14:20:19

No dont think any of us are saying violence against women is wrong but putting everything in one bracket is wrong. Not all women in porn are being absused or raped. Not all blokes who watch porn are beating their partners or think vioence against women is wrong.
That will be the next thing banned. We will be a right nanny state that

SoniaGluck Sat 03-Aug-13 14:38:46

You misunderstand me, kali110.

I was asking, specifically, if flatpackhamster was actually saying that pornography which depicts violence towards women is not harmful in affecting attitudes towards women.

I did not say that all pornography depicted rape or violent acts perpetrated against women.

Personally, I don't like or watch porn. Personally, again, I believe it to be harmful as it normalises the objectification of women. But these are my own beliefs. I do not have evidence to back up these views and I impose them on no one (beyond airing them here).

I was just interested to see if flatpack has evidence that pornography, specifically violent pornography, does no harm as this sentence:- "Repeating that ad nauseam doesn't make it true". seemed to imply that was the case.

flatpackhamster Sat 03-Aug-13 14:46:13

SoniaGluck

I'm curious, flatpack. Are you actually saying that pornography depicting violence towards women does no harm?

I'm saying there's no evidence either way and waving the ban-hammer around is illiberal and wrong. There are a group of people claiming (based upon no actual evidence or research) that violent porn harms women.

If so, do you have evidence for that?

Do I have evidence for no harm? How would that possibly work? How could I obtain proof that something didn't do something? This sounds to me rather like the Green party's stance on fracking - "It might be bad, so let's not do it."

Or have I misunderstood your position on the subject?

I think you're doing your best. Particularly since you, at no point, used the word 'violent' in your previous post.

There is no evidence that porn increases violence towards women or harm towards women. There may be individuals who've viewed porn and are violent, but that doesn't mean it's the porn.
If it were, we could look at countries where porn has been more mainstream for decades (such as Germany, Denmark, France and Italy) and we would see very clear evidence of casual violence towards women being part of the culture.

keatsybeatsy Sat 03-Aug-13 14:58:54

kali110 - this has turned into a debate about pornography (which is fair enough, we need to keep debating that), but in your first post you said some people were born 'nasty'. Really? Any idea how we can identify these evil babies? Maybe phrenology's due a comeback . . .

SoniaGluck Sat 03-Aug-13 15:22:23

Particularly since you, at no point, used the word 'violent' in your previous post. I did, actually: - Are you actually saying that pornography depicting violence towards women does no harm?

However, I accept that I was pushing it to expect evidence of no harm.

As I said in my response to kali I don't have evidence of my own, so I can't pursue it any further with any authority.

Having seen in the past 2 or 3 weeks plenty of evidence of violent, misogynistic language directed at certain women online, I do wonder a little at the possible desensitising effects that porn has on certain individuals.

Of course, these men could have been complete wankers before watching the porn but I believe ( and I accept that I believe it on no scientific evidence) that watching porn normalises unpleasant attitudes towards women. I don't think it's so very far from turning unpleasant attitudes in to unpleasant actions should the opportunity present itself.

flatpackhamster Sat 03-Aug-13 15:59:03

SoniaGluck Sat 03-Aug-13 15:22:23

Particularly since you, at no point, used the word 'violent' in your previous post. I did, actually: - Are you actually saying that pornography depicting violence towards women does no harm?

Sorry, I thought you were the poster I replied to so I was referring to the post above.

As I said in my response to kali I don't have evidence of my own, so I can't pursue it any further with any authority.

There isn't any peer-reviewed research either.

Having seen in the past 2 or 3 weeks plenty of evidence of violent, misogynistic language directed at certain women online, I do wonder a little at the possible desensitising effects that porn has on certain individuals.

But you don't know that those people have viewed porn. Further, it's my experience (since I've been on the intertubes since before they were called that) that idjits are always online, and they'll say stuff online that they wouldn't dare say to someone's face, and they don't care what they say or who they say it to. Male, female, gay, ginger, disabled - they'll pick on whatever they can to get a rise. And that's exactly what they got when they started yomping on about rape to women who were campaigning against porn. If you doubt me, go take a gander at somethingawful.com or 4chan.

Of course, these men could have been complete wankers before watching the porn but I believe ( and I accept that I believe it on no scientific evidence) that watching porn normalises unpleasant attitudes towards women. I don't think it's so very far from turning unpleasant attitudes in to unpleasant actions should the opportunity present itself.

Mmm, but you're building assumption upon assumption there. And if we're going to start banning stuff - which is what's being proposed - I would want there to be solid scientific evidence before we did it.

SoniaGluck Sat 03-Aug-13 16:26:20

But you don't know that those people have viewed porn. True, but if some of this disgusting stuff came out of their own heads that's arguably worse.

I take your point about my assumptions, I am making them. It seems reasonable enough (to me) to do so, since watching porn is quite a common thing for certain young men ( and the men threatening rape and worse online have been predominantly in their 20s, apparently). Moreover, they boast about doing so.

I also take your point about the threats being 'hot air' in most cases. I think that there is probably a disconnect when some of these guys tweet their vileness - they don't visualise a real live woman reading it. But, for others, it is backed by such hatred that I'm not so sure they wouldn't act on their threats if they could.

At this stage I don't think that there is a good enough argument for an out and out ban on porn. I don't like it but that isn't a good reason to ban it, unfortunately. smile

The last couple of weeks have been very sobering and dispiriting. I feel a bit ground down by it all, to be honest.

valiumredhead Sat 03-Aug-13 16:29:06

This is exactly why I don't use fb any more,I would rather not know what my so called friends are thinking every nano second. I want to be oblivious to that sorry of appalling crap.

Urgh OP, glad you deleted !

flatpackhamster Sat 03-Aug-13 16:42:35

SoniaGluck

True, but if some of this disgusting stuff came out of their own heads that's arguably worse.

I take your point about my assumptions, I am making them. It seems reasonable enough (to me) to do so, since watching porn is quite a common thing for certain young men ( and the men threatening rape and worse online have been predominantly in their 20s, apparently). Moreover, they boast about doing so.

The last stats I saw, 2/3 of men and 1/2 of women between 18 and 25 had viewed porn online (by choice rather than just stumbling across it). Can't remember what the stats said about regular consumers of it but I think the proportion is the same - that for every 3 men consuming porn, there are 2 women..

I also take your point about the threats being 'hot air' in most cases. I think that there is probably a disconnect when some of these guys tweet their vileness - they don't visualise a real live woman reading it. But, for others, it is backed by such hatred that I'm not so sure they wouldn't act on their threats if they could.

Did you see this story?

This guy apologised after someone threatened to send his twitter information to his mum. That's the kind of people we're dealing with here. Not raging hate zombies, but people living at home with their mum who think they're funny when they push boundaries. Take a look at the two sites I mentioned in my last post - there are tens of thousands of them on there. Often they're social misfits (nerds/geeks) which makes them angry at the world. But stick them in a room with real people, or more usefully indicate that there isn't such a clear separation between the world of the internet and the real one, and their bullying dissipates.

At this stage I don't think that there is a good enough argument for an out and out ban on porn. I don't like it but that isn't a good reason to ban it, unfortunately. smile

I have much the same attitude to an awful lot of stuff. There's plenty of things I loathe and despise (such as the Guardian) but I recognise that other people like it and it'd be illiberal of me to wield the banhammer even if I could.

The last couple of weeks have been very sobering and dispiriting. I feel a bit ground down by it all, to be honest.

Don't be. It's been going on for years, and until someone finds a way of dispensing a well-earned slap down a fibreoptic cable, it's not going to go away. But while it might seem ghastly it's a consequence of the freedom that the internet brings. The internet was built, essentially, on altruism. There are tens of thousands of forums where people ask advice on everything, and other people dispense advice for free.

For every person on the internet writing "RAEP RAEP HURRR" there are twenty doing good things. Want to know how to lay a tile floor? Want to know why your computer keeps coming up with those error messages? What about how many species of bee can be found in your area? Someone's writing about it, and will help you out, for free and because they want to. The internet is an extraordinary place in every sense.

SoniaGluck Sat 03-Aug-13 17:04:21

I don't dispute that lots of women choose to watch porn. I wonder what sort of porn they're watching, though. I mean there is porn and porn, IYSWIM.

Yes, I saw that story. I don't think that all the rape tweeters as totally gormless as he was, though. Some of them come across as quite a different type altogether. But it's a fair point that a lot of them are armchair misogynists, so to speak.

I love The Guardian ( but you knew that) smile. And, as for: until someone finds a way of dispensing a well-earned slap down a fibreoptic cable, I can only agree - I dare say, though, that you and I might disagree on who deserves the slap.

You're quite right about the value of the internet, of course, and normally, I wouldn't be saying such defeatist things. Just had an overload of idiocy recently.

I do appreciate your taking the time to discuss these matters, BTW. I don't think that you and I will ever agree on certain subjects but at least we can have a reasonable discussion.

PlateSpinningAtAllTimes Sat 03-Aug-13 17:13:16

Op what a vile 'friend' who you're better off without. On the plus side, you've started what's turned into a really interesting thread. Particularly enjoying the debate between flat packed and Sonia- articulate arguments from both of you and really making me think about my own stance <applauds>

IDontBowlOnShabbos Sat 03-Aug-13 17:34:37

Urggh I hate people like this. Recently had to delete someone for typing 'all women who wear flat shoes should have their feet chopped off.' Disgusting.

Interesting discussion re porn use and increased online abuse of women though, has really made me think.

I don't think that just because men in their twenties are more likely to watch porn they are then more likely to want to degrade women. Correlation doesn't equal causation and all that. There must be more variables.

Maybe these people have never been in a serious relationship with a member of the opposite sex (being mostly in their twenties), therefore don't really understand women they are sexually attracted to. Most hate seems to stem from fear of the unknown. That and the fact they are massive dicks! smile

SoniaGluck Sat 03-Aug-13 18:13:52

Thanks PlateSpinning It's good to air these things. I've actually been working out my own views and changing my mind a bit as I've been reading and responding.

I don't think that just because men in their twenties are more likely to watch porn they are then more likely to want to degrade women. Correlation doesn't equal causation and all that. There must be more variables.

I totally agree on the variables, IDontBowl. I mean, I have a 25 year old son and I'm pretty sure that he has watched porn. I hope nothing too extreme but he's an adult and it isn't something that he would talk to me about. I can be pretty much 100% certain that he has never sent a rape or murder threat to an unknown woman over the internet because he didn't like something she did or said.

I think you could be right about the fear of the unknown in some cases; although at least one of the guys arrested over the recent Twitter threats was apparently in a relationship.

That and the fact they are massive dicks! Can't argue with that, however. grin

kali110 Sat 03-Aug-13 18:55:05

Of course we cant identify who's going to grow up into a vile human being .i just meant that some people can have the best upbringing and still turn into a twisted human being even without variables such as porn. I do think there should be some checks on the websites that were mentioned though.

MikeOxard Sat 03-Aug-13 19:18:07

flatpackhamster - "Who nowadays denies a woman's right to a job? How many claim a woman is only fit to run a household? Who states that a woman's isn't capable of holding any job she chooses?"

2 years ago, roughly, I was turned down for a job I was qualified for and experienced in, in favour of a man with no relevant qualifications or experience. I was told it was because you needed to be a man to do this job. Sexism is still going on, you are very fortunate if it's not happening to you, but that doesn't mean that it isn't happening.

flatpackhamster Sat 03-Aug-13 21:37:51

SoniaGluck

I don't dispute that lots of women choose to watch porn. I wonder what sort of porn they're watching, though. I mean there is porn and porn, IYSWIM.

I don't know for certain. I get the vague impression that it's less redtube and more chatroulette but that isn't based on any concrete evidence. Porn aimed at men has certainly changed though in the last couple of years and I wonder if it's because more couples are watching it together.

I love The Guardian ( but you knew that) smile. And, as for: until someone finds a way of dispensing a well-earned slap down a fibreoptic cable, I can only agree - I dare say, though, that you and I might disagree on who deserves the slap.

I'll offer you a deal. You can slap whoever you like if I can send Seumas Milne back in time to 1950s Soviet Russia and give him a taste of the Stalinist hell he thinks is so fucking awesome. Public school Oxbridge communists boil my piss.

You're quite right about the value of the internet, of course, and normally, I wouldn't be saying such defeatist things. Just had an overload of idiocy recently.

Time to unplug then. I find that 48 hours of not reading the news or discussion forums makes me feel a whole lot better. I set fire to some animal on the barbecue and drank a bottle of wine, and that helped no end.

I do appreciate your taking the time to discuss these matters, BTW. I don't think that you and I will ever agree on certain subjects but at least we can have a reasonable discussion.

Likewise. But don't imagine I'm mellowing in my old age. smile

MikeOxard

2 years ago, roughly, I was turned down for a job I was qualified for and experienced in, in favour of a man with no relevant qualifications or experience. I was told it was because you needed to be a man to do this job. Sexism is still going on, you are very fortunate if it's not happening to you, but that doesn't mean that it isn't happening.

If you were told that, you have every right to tribunal the everloving heck out of that company. I didn't say sexism wasn't going on. I said that life had changed since the '70s, and it has despite the poster's denial that it has. The world is a very different place, but sexism does still go on.

Minifingers Sat 03-Aug-13 22:02:22

Flat pack - I haven't accused you of being a child molester. I asked you if child porn is acceptable if no child is abused in the making of it, in response to your insistence that porn which shows women being violently abused has no impact on wider attitudes to women or towards sexual behaviour within relationships. You could just as readily argue that watching child porn doesn't encourage adults to objectify and abuse children?

SoniaGluck Sat 03-Aug-13 22:03:03

flatpack Having studied the Soviet Union I cannot see how anyone could ever be under any illusions about the Stalinist era, so by all means let him have a little taste of it. Let him come back, though, won't you?

The barbecue, bottle of wine and news blackout sounds like a good idea. I will do that.

But don't imagine I'm mellowing in my old age. Perish the thought. smile

worthitornot Sat 03-Aug-13 22:21:34

Screen capture and threaten to send to his mother maybe?

wharrgarbl Sat 03-Aug-13 22:27:46

I believe it to be harmful as it normalises the objectification of women.

What about gay porn? Doesn't all porn objectify everyone, basically?

SoniaGluck Sat 03-Aug-13 23:13:09

Wharrgarbl If that question is for me - I've lost track - then , yes, I've already said that I dislike all porn. In part, because of the objectification of the people involved. I was talking about porn involving women because that is my only (limited) experience of it.

I can't really speak with any knowledge of gay porn - I'm not the target audience. My brother was gay and he watched it, I believe. It wasn't anything we shared and he died several years ago.

flatpackhamster Sun 04-Aug-13 07:25:16

Minifingers

Flat pack - I haven't accused you of being a child molester. I asked you if child porn is acceptable if no child is abused in the making of it, in response to your insistence that porn which shows women being violently abused has no impact on wider attitudes to women or towards sexual behaviour within relationships.
You could just as readily argue that watching child porn doesn't encourage adults to objectify and abuse children?

Firstly, I don't see that the two are comparable. One is a cartoon of someone who can't consent having consensual sex, whereas the other is an actor (who can consent) choosing to have what appears to be non-consensual sex.

But unless you've got some research to show that japanese cartoon porn is harmful, I would say it shouldn't be banned. I don't consider it pleasant and I don't particularly 'accept' it (acceptable is such a weasel word). But I wouldn't ban it. There must be some research from Japan, home of the terrifying cartoons, mustn't there? Some indication either way. The stuff has been around there for years, so there must be some research on its effects.

here is a map showing countries where porn is illegal in red. All of those countries are places where women have fewer rights and there is greater misogyny.

PlateSpinningAtAllTimes Sun 04-Aug-13 08:35:40

Interesting map, Akiss - what do the green and yellow represent?

All of those countries are places where women have fewer rights and there is greater misogyny.

In general yes, however Iceland is arguably way ahead of pretty much anywhere in terms of social equality- first openly gay prime minister (who's also female, incidentally), etc. But I except that Iceland's the exception to the rule smile

LoveBeingItsABoy Sun 04-Aug-13 08:39:45

Porn is thought to be the reason because it is everywhere and so much more accessible than ever before.

Red is illegal, yellow is restricted/partly legal and green is legal.

PlateSpinningAtAllTimes Sun 04-Aug-13 09:28:52

Gah! accept it's the exception!

PlateSpinningAtAllTimes Sun 04-Aug-13 09:34:34

it's a tricky one...I'm not sure porn encourages rape in terms of the shifty bloke hanging around in the bushes, however I wonder if it increases incidences of young lads pushing their girlfriends into it type rape (go on, you're frigid...etc). No evidence though. I think the answer is better regulations/restrictions.

flatpackhamster Sun 04-Aug-13 09:37:39

PlateSpinningAtAllTimes

it's a tricky one...I'm not sure porn encourages rape in terms of the shifty bloke hanging around in the bushes, however I wonder if it increases incidences of young lads pushing their girlfriends into it type rape (go on, you're frigid...etc). No evidence though. I think the answer is better regulations/restrictions.

Why would you regulate without evidence?

That's illogical platespinning. In some of the countries where porn is illegal women are stoned to death for being raped.

PlateSpinningAtAllTimes Sun 04-Aug-13 14:40:52

flatpack I think the porn industry should be regulated like any other industry, to prevent women (or men) being forced to perform against their will. Plus more steps taken to prevent children accessing it. A sort of overseeing body like Ofsted, if you will. I know that would be a mammoth undertaking, but I wonder if everyone campaigning to stop porn altogether put their energies into pushing for better regulations then more good would be achieved for everyone. I'm diverting from the 'porn=rape culture' debate now, I know.

AKiss fair enough, I know I'm not being logical, just a bit of a stream of thought, largely because I can see the different arguments and can't work out which side of the fence I'm on! However I'm not sure that illegal porn=women stoned to death for being raped. Rather, Over the top, controlling government = both of those things, plus numerous other crazy laws. In Iceland, where porn is illegal, women are most certainly not subject to being stoned to death for being raped.

soontobeburns Sun 04-Aug-13 15:33:07

Come on porn doesnt equal rape.

I watch porn and yes redtube and some more hardcore videos. I do so around once a week infact. I am not a rapist or have any feelings that way at all.

Its about knowing the difference between right and wrong and having a conscience. It doesnt affect any normal person ffs.

should of nc'd but hey

hackmum Sun 04-Aug-13 15:58:01

OP, do you know this guy's parents? I rather enjoyed Mary Beard's response to a threatening tweet the other day, which was to tell the tweeter she was going to forward the tweet to his mum.

There was another story too about a woman who was being pestered by someone on an online dating site, who sent her several pictures of his dick - she found his mum on FB and forwarded them to her.

People who post this kind of stuff on social media tend ultimately to be pathetic little scaredy-cats at heart, rather than the macho men they imagine themselves as being.

kali110 Sun 04-Aug-13 21:50:54

You have the link to story of the post being sent to the guy mom?would love to read that.

flatpackhamster Sun 04-Aug-13 22:14:16

PlateSpinningAtAllTimes

flatpack I think the porn industry should be regulated like any other industry, to prevent women (or men) being forced to perform against their will.

It's already regulated like any other industry. Every country has labour laws, some better than others. The laws are very clear.

Plus more steps taken to prevent children accessing it.

A sort of overseeing body like Ofsted, if you will.

Something like this, perhaps?

I know that would be a mammoth undertaking, but I wonder if everyone campaigning to stop porn altogether put their energies into pushing for better regulations then more good would be achieved for everyone. I'm diverting from the 'porn=rape culture' debate now, I know.

What you propose would be impossible without restrictions to the internet of the most draconian type. Not just 'a mammoth undertaking', but genuinely impossible. Everyone who's written about 'regulating' porn on the internet fails to understand the internet and the way it works.

And while it might seem like a nice idea to 'regulate' internet porn, I would ask you to consider who controls the regulator. It would be all too easy to broaden their remit beyond porn to, say, news. Who would you trust to decide what news you read on the internet? A Tory/UKIP coalition? A Labour/islamist party coalition?

hackmum Mon 05-Aug-13 09:45:05

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