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to think everyone who opposes abortion in Ireland should read this?

(95 Posts)
skylerwhite Wed 31-Jul-13 19:06:37

I had tears in my eyes reading this heart-rending story. This is a man writing about the experience he and his wife had when they were told that their much-wanted pregnancy was 'incompatible with life' due to a fatal foetal abnormality, and the grief and pain they went through as a result of having to travel to England to terminate the pregnancy.

And the bill which was just signed into law won't make a blind bit of difference to women in similar awful situations. Those with money will travel; those without are just left to put up with it. It's so frustrating and so upsetting, it makes me so fucking ANGRY.

gonerogue Wed 31-Jul-13 19:33:14

I have seen so many stories like this on the TMFR (Termination for Medical Reaons) Facebook page. Each one I have forced myself to read through my tears as people open up about their harrowing experiences.

I love living in Ireland but I am in such despair when there was a chance to let people who faced this horrible decision, and the cowards in the Dail let the pro life movement, and what the older generation's reaction might be influence their decision.

YANBU

NotYoMomma Wed 31-Jul-13 19:43:36

I wont even visit Ireland when I am pregnant. horrific

skylerwhite Wed 31-Jul-13 21:13:04

Can't say that I blame you, NotYoMomma. It's a disgraceful state of affairs.

makingdoo Wed 31-Jul-13 21:17:03

It's such a mess. In my opinion we are a disgrace. These stories make me so mad.

There has been discussion in Ireland about this for so long. Our politicians are a joke.

neunundneunzigluftballons Wed 31-Jul-13 21:27:16

The law is such a joke. I was hoping it would be referred to the supreme court because I reckon it might not have met the burden required by the constitution and then we could have had a referendum.

skylerwhite Wed 31-Jul-13 21:29:02

I was hoping that too. I wonder if that's why Michael D called the Council of State.

WeShouldOpenABar Wed 31-Jul-13 23:10:33

I was hoping that too. from conversations with my mother she has a genuine belief that if you make it available at all women will be getting abortions left right and centre just for the sheet hell of it. I know she genuinely believes women would make that decision so lightly and is immovable in that opinion. How I could have been raised by someone with such a differing viewpoint baffles me. There's always adoption is a point she also makes which just shows how little people understand about how backwards our adoption laws also are sad

LucyBabs Wed 31-Jul-13 23:17:14

notyomomma If you don't normally reside in Ireland then this won't effect you. If you were visiting Ireland the maternity care you would receive would be excellent.

I have faced this situation, I live in Ireland, i was pregnant and I was told my baby wouldn't live I carried the pregnancy to 20 weeks. It was torture and not one doctor in Ireland could help me.
Its barbaric.

Fucking pro life make my blood boil!

5madthings Wed 31-Jul-13 23:18:39

yanbu.

the abortion laws in ireland are a disgrace.

and i suspect it wont be long until.the new bit re a woman havinh to be suicidal leads to an actual suicide. prob a young girl who thinks if she attempts suicide she may then be allowed an abortion, but will end up actually killing herself sad

5madthings Wed 31-Jul-13 23:19:33

lucybabs i am sorry for your experience and loss xxx

tearsofamum Wed 31-Jul-13 23:22:06

Have namechanged

We lost our DD to anencephaly a few years ago. The heartache of being told at your 20 week scan that your baby is incompatible with life is unimaginable. Thankfully we had the choice to spare our family further anguish and end the pregnancy. Those few days between finding out and going through labour were torture. I cant even begin to imagine how much being forced to term would mess with your head/relationship.

LucyBabs Wed 31-Jul-13 23:24:34

Very true 5madthings

I remember watching the debate a few months back and some mental health doctor saying how suicide during pregnancy was practically unheard of, fair enough but how often do we hear of the women who attempted suicide?

neunundneunzigluftballons Wed 31-Jul-13 23:25:26

Lucybabs and tearsofamum I am so sorry for your losses and I am really sorry that you suffered at the hands of a completely immature state on top of dealing with such heartbreaking circumstances.

unfortunately our maternity system has its own problems too from what I have been exposed to, not for everyone thankfully but a reasonable minority.

thebody Wed 31-Jul-13 23:25:29

Lucy, how bloody dreadful for you.

to me any country that doesn't allow abortion effectively 'on demand' is a disgrace.

any person trying to control another woman's fertility choices Is a disgrace.

LucyBabs Wed 31-Jul-13 23:25:47

So very sorry for your loss tearsofamum

There are too many women their partners and families having to deal with this

skylerwhite Wed 31-Jul-13 23:42:30

Lucybabs and tearsofamum I am very sorry for your trouble. It's shameful that Ireland worsens the distress and grief of women in your situations by such misogynistic and hypocritical laws.

But notyomomma is right : if she were visiting Ireland while pregnant, and became suddenly and seriously ill, there is a chance she could end up in the type of awful situation that Savita H and her husband found themselves in. This is not to detract from the generally excellent maternity care.

opilo Wed 31-Jul-13 23:47:10

Meh, I'm pro-choice but its up to Ireland and their citizens what they want to do.

whitesugar Thu 01-Aug-13 00:42:49

I agree entirely and am appalled that anyone would have to leave the country in such terrible circumstances. Ireland is a nice place but is run by a pack of mysoginists who pander to right wing Catholics because they want their vote. It is beyond shameful. They debate it for hours into the night at the dail half pissed blithely ignoring the fact that at least 10 women a day travel to England for terminations due to crisis pregnancies. The trauma and the cost those women and girls suffer is dreadful. Lovely behaviour for a country which purports to be so Christian and caring. I can't even bear to watch telly or read the papers because it absolutely sickens me. I am so sorry for the women who have posted about their loss.

HoldMeCloserTonyDanza Thu 01-Aug-13 00:47:19

This happened to close friends earlier in the year.

Every year approx 1800 couples get this news. About 80% of them travel.

It is SHAMEFUL and I am so, so glad people are beginning to speak and campaign about it.

Alconleigh Thu 01-Aug-13 00:48:26

Their citizens come to the UK to have abortions. They know it, we know it, it's a coward's charter. they need to grow the fuck up and make it properly legal. Mind you, so do the mainland; all this 2 doctor permission hoops is nonsense. We need abortion on demand.

seanbonbon Thu 01-Aug-13 08:14:46

Sorry, the mainland??
confused

seanbonbon Thu 01-Aug-13 08:19:40

Agree something more needs to be done, anyone who is suicidal is obv not in their right mind and the idea that they will be in a position to come forward and jump through all these hoops is crazy.

Also not all women will be suicidal but that's not to say a pregnancy couldn't be ruining your life.

Bruthastortoise Thu 01-Aug-13 08:21:08

Um you do all know that depending where you are in the UK you could be facing nearly exactly the same situation? There are British women who are bring denied the right to an abortion so maybe we should focus our energies on that before heavily criticising other nations (obvious disclaimer if you live in RoI. It's a terrible situation.)

bumbleymummy Thu 01-Aug-13 08:22:05

Very sad story. Sorry for anyone who has had to go through that.

There is a big difference between allowing abortion in the case of fatal foetal abnormalities and providing it 'on demand' though.

PollyIndia Thu 01-Aug-13 08:28:39

That's awful. I don't understand what happens though if you aren't allowed an abortion in the case of fatal foetal abnormalities. Do you just have to carry until you deliver naturally? That is barbaric if so. Lucybabs and tearsofamum, so sorry for your losses sad

skylerwhite Thu 01-Aug-13 09:03:53

Yes Polly - women have to carry to term and deliver a baby that they know won't survive. My aunt is a midwife and a few times a year deals with a situation like this.

I think it's perfectly legitimate for British citizens to criticise Irish and Northern Irish abortion laws, by the way, given that the problem is overwhelmingly 'exported' to England.

bumbleymummy Thu 01-Aug-13 09:08:07

Ireland apparently has the highest rate of neural tube defects. I wonder why that is and what can be done do reduce it.

skylerwhite Thu 01-Aug-13 09:17:06

What can be done to reduce it? Abortion, bumbleymummy. The rate of neural tube defects is counted per live birth. That's why the rate is lower in other countries.

Bruthastortoise Thu 01-Aug-13 09:29:59

People in Northern Ireland are British citizens though so do you not think before we criticise other countries we should try and ensure the rights of our own citizens are being upheld first?

bumbleymummy Thu 01-Aug-13 09:31:21

I was talking about how it could be prevented in the first place, skyler. (As I'm sure you know) I'm pretty sure those mums would prefer a live, healthy baby if they had the choice hmm

skylerwhite Thu 01-Aug-13 09:48:05

Unless you know of a way to completely eradicate ntds, this situation will arise for some pregnant women every year. The fact that even one woman might have to travel to terminate a pregnancy due to an ntd is barbaric and cruel IMO.

Bruthas - I see the point you're making, but to my mind its not a case of criticising one or the other. Besides, abortion laws in Ireland north and south are the product of the same historical processes which led to the creation of insular, conservative, patriarchal and ultra religious governments and societies for much of the twentieth century. Society has changed now for the most part - thankfully - but the governing elite are way behind.

bumbleymummy Thu 01-Aug-13 09:54:29

Well I think it's a good goal to work towards skyler. No woman should have to be told that her baby is incompatible with life.

Bruthastortoise Thu 01-Aug-13 18:33:52

the thing is though that the women in Northern Ireland, despite being British citizens, are denied the rights other British women take for granted and have been doing so for decades. The Catholic Church has never had anything like the same level of influence in Northernn Ireland and prior to the Good Friday Agreement we were ruled directly from Westminister so we had the same governing elite as English women but they decided to treat Northern Irish women as lesser beings.

ApocalypseThen Thu 01-Aug-13 18:40:26

Sorry, the mainland??

France, probably.

skylerwhite Thu 01-Aug-13 18:43:26

I broadly agree with you, Bruthas. But I think devolution across the UK has complicated this matter somewhat.

It's also pretty clear the failure to extend abortion provision to Northern Irish women was down to the religious influence across both communities: the relatively evangelical nature of NI Protestantism (as compared to say English Protestantism), as well as the vocal fundamentalist strain represented by Paisley et al. And while the Catholic Church in NI was not formally influential at the governing level like in the south, it was afforded a great deal of space by the government to essentially provide a parallel set of social services - especially in healthcare.

Bruthastortoise Thu 01-Aug-13 18:48:23

I agree re. devolution skyler, if Northern Irish women were ever going to gain equal abortion rights it needed to be before devolution. There isn't a hope in hell now.

I also agree with you about the religious influence and I think that's one of the main reasons I get a bit annoyed when British people write about how awful the Irish government is for pandering to the religious right(which they are!) - but omit the fact that the British government did it for decades in Northern Ireland and it has been to the detriment of 1000s of British women.

sashh Thu 01-Aug-13 19:19:21

That's awful. I don't understand what happens though if you aren't allowed an abortion in the case of fatal foetal abnormalities. Do you just have to carry until you deliver naturally? That is barbaric if so.

Yes it s barbaric, but that is what happens. There are plenty of people who will pray for a miracle for you.

Do you know what is more barbaric? If the pregnancy continuing to full term will leave you infertile you still have to go through it.

You can be a 12 year old victim of rape carrying a foetus with a fatal abnormality, you still have to carry to term and give birth unless your family/friends can get enough money together to get you to England or another EU state.

And yes the abortion act should be extended to NI.

PollyIndia Thu 01-Aug-13 19:25:18

I had no idea sad How utterly awful.

bumbleymummy Thu 01-Aug-13 20:54:13

Why do thirteen year old rape victims who have gotten pregnant always come into abortion discussions? Kind of equivalent to the 'women who use abortion as contraception and have had 17 terminations to date' at the other end of the spectrum.

skylerwhite Thu 01-Aug-13 20:57:49

Wow. Have you forgotten the X Case, bumbley? Pretty relevant to the abortion debate in Ireland. Granted, she was fourteen, not thirteen. But a rape victim nonetheless.

bumbleymummy Thu 01-Aug-13 21:04:08

No, I haven't forgotten her. hmm

bumbleymummy Thu 01-Aug-13 21:08:26

Should have said 12yo in my last post anyway - I was referring to Sassh's post.

skylerwhite Thu 01-Aug-13 21:20:24

It's equally deplorable to me if a 22 or 32 year old victim of rape is forced to go ahead with an unwanted pregnancy.

Chunderella Thu 01-Aug-13 21:22:48

Fuck that, bruthastortoise. I shall criticise immoral abortion laws in any country I choose. The situation in ROI is relevant to British people anyway, because Irish women come here to have abortions. In their thousands. Indeed, the current Irish law is only able to exist because the geographical closeness of Britain and the abortion laws here. That makes it a British concern too. On a personal level, I imagine a very high percentage of British people have friends and/or relatives in ROI, so of course we're going to be concerned.

And while I don't think much of the situation in NI, it is a great deal better than ROI. If ROI were to allow abortions before 8 weeks, that would be significant and wonderful progress. it would be even better if they allowed abortion until 24 weeks in an area containing 95% of the population and until 8 weeks in an area containing 5%, as the UK does.

Bruthastortoise Fri 02-Aug-13 08:11:11

Chunderella you have misunderstood me, you can criticise whatever you want but as a British person I think it's wrong to condemn unreservedly another nation's government and omit the fact that our own government was/is doing the same. And the situation isn't that much better in NI, abortion prior to 8 weeks is practically impossible to obtain so you have British women, who are entitled to NHS care, having to "get the boat" to England to pay for private treatment. But as you say we only account for 5% of the British population so that's ok I suppose, as long as most British women have access to safe, legal and in many cases free abortions up to 24 weeks the rest of us can just keep quiet.

Here's the big problem, you ask any one of my peers what side of the abortion debate they stand on, they'll tell you they're in favour of abortion on demand. But a substantial number of said peers don't even live here and can't vote here. The ones keeping this bill from being passed are the same people who are keeping our backwards thinking male dominated political parties in power, the middle aged and elderly voters. Its almost like we have to wait for them to die to get any real progress done.

sashh Fri 02-Aug-13 09:19:22

Why do thirteen year old rape victims who have gotten pregnant always come into abortion discussions?

Because many people who identify as pro life make exceptions for rape and children. Or they don't think about all the possible circumstances and because whilst rape is abhorrent in all forms we often feel more sympathy for a child.

bumbleymummy Fri 02-Aug-13 10:01:47

It's at the extreme end of the spectrum though. We were talking about anencephaly and abortion in the case of fatal foetal abnormalities, why do we need to bring 12 year old pregnant rape victims into the discussion?

bumbleymummy Fri 02-Aug-13 10:02:46

I don't know anyone in Ireland/ NI in favour of abortion on demand. Abortion on demand isn't even the law in the UK.

skylerwhite Fri 02-Aug-13 10:12:18

If I remember rightly, bumbley, you aren't very familiar with the contours of the abortion debate in Ireland at all. So it doesn't surprise me that you don't know anyone in favour of abortion of demand. If it helps, I know lots of people, both north and south, who are in favour of abortion on demand, and infinitely more who wish to see liberalisation along the lines of what exists in Britain.

A woman with a pregnancy with a fatal foetal abnormality is just as much 'at the extreme end of the spectrum' as a woman/girl pregnant as a result of rape.

MintyChops Fri 02-Aug-13 10:52:45

For those saying it is old/middle aged people who are the problem my mother is 69, a lay minister of the Eucharist and utterly, totally pro-choice. She wouldn't have wanted an abortion herself and she probably wouldn't want me to have one but she thinks it is a disgrace that other women can't choose for themselves/ get proper care at home rather than have to travel. And then there's dear Lucinda Creighton.. Ugh. Shudder. Goodbye Lucinda, good riddance.

bumbleymummy Fri 02-Aug-13 11:11:23

No, you don't remember rightly Skyler smile In any case, I haven't claimed that I know everyone in NI/Ireland so it's quite possible that there are some people that do think abortion should be available on demand. I just don't happen to know anyone who does. Yes, some who believe that it should be available under circumstances but none who think 'on demand'.

In case you have forgotten, we happen to be discussing anencephaly so the fact that it is at the extreme end of the spectrum is irrelevant. The thread was not about abortion being available to 12 year old rape victims.

IneedAsockamnesty Fri 02-Aug-13 11:14:25

Ami right in thinking that if they suspect you are traveling to terminate then they can stop you doing so?

skylerwhite Fri 02-Aug-13 11:25:27

In case you have forgotten, we happen to be discussing anencephaly so the fact that it is at the extreme end of the spectrum is irrelevant. The thread was not about abortion being available to 12 year old rape victims.

confused Are you trying to dictate what people can discuss on this thread?

Sockreturningpixie No, women are not stopped from travelling for terminations. There was a notorious case in the early 1990s, the X Case, in which a 14 year old rape victim was initially prevented from travelling to England for a termination by the government and the High Court. The Supreme Court ruled that this was unconstitutional, and a subsequent referendum ensured that women had the right to travel.

bumbleymummy Fri 02-Aug-13 11:33:00

No Skyler, I am not. I was asking why 12 year old rape victims always come up in discussions about abortion, regardless of what the original topic might be. The fact that anencephaly also happens to be at the extreme end of the spectrum is not comparable because that was what the thread was originally about.

Chunderella Fri 02-Aug-13 11:39:56

The situation is a great deal better in NI, bruthastortoise. Very limited access to abortion is better than none at all. Still pretty crap, but given the choice between living under ROI laws and NI laws on the matter I'd go with the latter every time. Wouldn't you? Indeed, I'd be unwilling to go to ROI whilst pregnant, like a poster upthread, but was willing to go to NI. As for the line about the rest of us can just keep quiet, it is utterly misplaced because not only did nobody say that, nobody even implied it either. The only way this is going to change is for you to do the very opposite of keeping quiet! For the record, I have had an Irish woman staying in my home whilst in England for an abortion she ought to have been able to have at home. I'll do it again if I have to.

I know people in NI in favour of abortion on demand bumbleymummy. Perhaps its the circles you move in.

Not all middle aged and elderly voters, but the majority of them. My mother is 55, and in most respects quite liberal, and she's pro life. I was given my sex education by a nun, it was completely reproduction centred and I didnt know anything about abortion until well into my late teens. This was the late nineties. So many people making the choices are woefully ignorant and badly educated. Even now its still acknowledged that most of the good schools are the ones attached to the church, Educate Together is finally catching up but the church stkll has a stranglehold on our society.

bumbleymummy Fri 02-Aug-13 16:47:23

I move in pretty wide circles Chunder. smile I also know plenty of people in the UK/US who don't support the idea of abortion on demand either.

skylerwhite Fri 02-Aug-13 16:50:52

That's fine, bumbley. If people don't support abortion on demand, they don't have to have one. My problem is when they try to dictate to other women what they can or can't do.

bumbleymummy Fri 02-Aug-13 16:56:02

Well thats the way laws work isn't it? They tell us what we can and can't do.

Chunderella Fri 02-Aug-13 17:27:14

I also know lots of people who don't support the idea of abortion on demand bumbleymummy. As I know people pretty much everywhere on the spectrum, perhaps my social circles are yet wider than yours.

motherinferior Fri 02-Aug-13 17:29:45

Er...middle aged and elderly women were the ones leading the feminist demand for abortion actually. Don't slag us off!

bumbleymummy Fri 02-Aug-13 17:38:17

How lovely for you Chunder smile

skylerwhite Fri 02-Aug-13 17:39:29

Laws can be immoral and unjust, bumbley. We don't all have to sit back and accept that they are inherently righteous.

bumbleymummy Fri 02-Aug-13 17:41:34

You're entitled to your opinion Skyler but that doesn't always make you right.

Chunderella Fri 02-Aug-13 17:43:18

Such are the joys of coming from a Catholic family and being a feminist bumbleymummy.

skylerwhite Fri 02-Aug-13 17:46:29

So bumbley do you think that the case referred to in the OP was right? That that couple had to travel to England and have what was already a traumatic situation inestimably worsened due to Ireland's laws?

bumbleymummy Fri 02-Aug-13 17:50:31

No, but I don't think that means that abortion should be available 'on demand' either. I wouldn't stand behind someone who supports the idea that abortion should be available 'on demand' to term or that thinks a foetus has no right to life until it is born.

skylerwhite Fri 02-Aug-13 17:52:45

Ok, then you would agree that the legislation which was just signed into law is in itself inadequate, since it does not provide for abortion in the case of fatal foetal abnormalities.

bumbleymummy Fri 02-Aug-13 18:03:09

It's a difficult one. I can see why it's such a tragic situation for the parents to be in but I can't reconcile myself with the idea that it is ok to take another human life even if that life is limited. I know we disagree on the definition of human life so I don't expect you to understand that.

LucyBabs Fri 02-Aug-13 21:04:09

bumblymummy

With a fetal abnormality or a non viable pregnancy its ending the life of a foetus that is possibly in pain. The woman and her partner will be going through hell. Honestly how you think continuing with a pregnancy in these circumstances is right is beyond me.

You seem to lack any compassion or empathy.. Sorry..

bumbleymummy Fri 02-Aug-13 23:34:22

Lucy, would you feel the same about ending the life of a young baby if it had a life limiting condition and may be in pain? I'm actually surprised that you suggested the foetus might be in pain. Most people who support the idea of abortion don't tend to acknowledge that possibility.

I'm not sure why you think I'm lacking in compassion or sympathy (I can't empathise because I haven't experienced it myself) As I have already said, I think it is very sad and tragic for any parent to discover that their child will not survive. The only difference is that I see that foetus as already having a life, and I struggle with the idea of having the control to end it, even though it its life may be limited.

LucyBabs Sat 03-Aug-13 00:00:18

The reason i say you lack empathy is, correct me if I'm wrong but you have been pregnant?
If you have surely you can put yourself in these womens shoes?

Being forced to carry a pregnancy that you know will result in a stillborn baby or a baby that will only live for a short time and in pain is inhumane.

You make the point of ending the life of a baby that has been born with a life limiting disorder?

I think you'll find these babys that are born are not being kept alive with medication, the doctors and nurses will keep them comfortable but when the time comes the baby will die and the doctors do not intervene.

Some women can not carry on with the pregnancy knowing that their baby cannot survive and is in pain, some women do carry the pregnancy to term and thats fine for them but there should be a choice

We're talking about disorders that are incompatible with life, there is NO chance they can survive.

VenusSurprising Sat 03-Aug-13 00:20:26

When I was pregnant in the ROI I was not offered any neural tube defect test. My consultant didn't do them, as she thought women would abort if they found out they had a baby with a defect, and she was ethically opposed to terminations.

Maybe that's why there are so many babies born with ntd and genetic abnormalities, like downes syndrome: the tests aren't routinely offered.
I had to ask for a test as I was 35 at the time, and my risk was high. Another doctor did the test.

I think the whole issue is so tragic: to have to terminate because of estrogen dependent maternal cancer, or to have to terminate because of maternal depression and suicide risk, or to have to have a little babe who you know will die just after birth. Or to be made to carry to term the product of a rape.

All these are difficult situations, and we must be kind and generous in our treatment of them. It's such a grey area, and people do seem to have very black and white views on the whole issue.

bumbleymummy Sat 03-Aug-13 09:10:30

Lucy, I can sympathise, not empathise, because I haven't experienced what they have.

I'm not sure how medication could keep a baby with anencephaly alive for any length of time. I know that they will die (usually within a few days). My question is do you think a doctor should be allowed to kill babies that have been born with life limiting conditions and/or may be in pain?

BabyMakesMyEyesGoSleepy Sat 03-Aug-13 09:44:03

There was a lady I knew a few years ago whose ds was stillborn. When out and about people would enquire to how her baby was and the pain and heartbreak as she explained her ds was stillborn is forever etched in my mind. Its barbaric and cruel to force women to give birth to a baby that will not live and its short hours/days will be filled with pain.

bumbleymummy Sat 03-Aug-13 13:57:11

Do sorry to hear about your friend's baby Sleepy. sad I think it must be very hard for anyone who loses a baby at a later stage either through stillbirth, late miscarriage, FFA etc to deal with the questions from people who knew you were pregnant but don't know the outcome.

I'm just wondering what your views are about babies being born with life limiting conditions who may be in pain. Should doctors be allowed to kill them?

skylerwhite Sat 03-Aug-13 14:55:48

We were talking about anencephaly and abortion in the case of fatal foetal abnormalities, why do we need to bring 12 year old pregnant rape victims into the discussion?

It's ironic, bumbley, that you were objecting upthread to people bringing up what you determined as irrelevant issues (12 year old pregnant rape victims). Yet here you are talking about killing babies with life-limiting conditions. Why?

bumbleymummy Sat 03-Aug-13 16:23:55

Skyler "Are you trying to dictate what people can discuss on this thread?"

skylerwhite Sat 03-Aug-13 16:34:52

I don't have a problem with people bringing up other issues, bumbley. You did earlier - when it was an issue you disagreed with/felt uncomfortable with - yet rather hypocritically, you are now doing the same thing. confused

wunderbar1 Sat 03-Aug-13 16:53:02

Wonderful modern opinions - support Abortion, then wonder why-oh-why marriage and family life (and civilisation itself) are breaking down, why boys are growing up rapists, porn-addicts or sexually confused. If you want the Sexual Revolution, you've got to put up with the consequences.

skylerwhite Sat 03-Aug-13 16:57:19

Oh dear.

Bruthastortoise Sat 03-Aug-13 17:01:37

Well the UK abortion act was passed in the 1960s wunderbar so you're about 50 years too late to consider the thought that woman have a right to choose what's happens to their bodies as a modern opinion.

skylerwhite Sat 03-Aug-13 17:03:32

There are rapists and porn-addicts in Ireland as well, wunderbar, where abortion is not permitted. How do you explain that?

I can't comment on 'sexually confused' boys, as I don't know what you mean by that. confused

Bruthastortoise Sat 03-Aug-13 17:06:40

I wasn't sure about that either skyler, you'd think given they're all porn addicts that there wouldn't be much about sex that confuses them smile

Really shouldn't rise to it...

bumbleymummy Sat 03-Aug-13 17:09:11

Not at all skyler, I asked why they always come up on abortion threads. In any case, the question I am asking is relevant. Some people (and I realise that you don't fall into this category) do actually consider the foetus to be a live baby so would find it comparable to thinking it is ok to take the life of a baby born with a life limiting/painful condition. I was wondering what other people's thoughts on that were. It's not really euthanasia because you are making the decision on another person's behalf.

bumbleymummy Sat 03-Aug-13 17:10:31

Brutha, it's whether she has the right to determine what happens to another's body that is the issue in abortion.

skylerwhite Sat 03-Aug-13 18:46:33

Are there any circumstances in which you think abortion is justifiable, bumbley? Just wondering.

bumbleymummy Sat 03-Aug-13 19:02:32

You know that already skyler, from the other thread.

skylerwhite Sat 03-Aug-13 19:02:58

Sorry, I can't remember. Genuine question.

bumbleymummy Sat 03-Aug-13 19:25:42

Yes, if the woman's life is at risk. Although I think the foetus' life should be preserved wherever possible.

bumbleymummy Sat 03-Aug-13 19:26:42

Although, as I said earlier, I do struggle with FFA. sad

skylerwhite Sat 03-Aug-13 19:26:50

So not in the circumstances referred to in the OP then?

bumbleymummy Sat 03-Aug-13 19:29:37

Think we xposted

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