To ask your views on bdsm relationships

(145 Posts)
McNewPants2013 Sat 27-Jul-13 02:14:44

I have been reading a lot of books about this and have came to a conclusion that with a trusting relationship it can work.

So what is your view.

Why are you asking, OP? BDSM is something that works for some people but is of no interest to others. In a general way, people who are into BDSM are better at negotiating, discussing and not making assumptions about sex and relationships, but there are abusers who are at least nominally into it, just as there are abusers in every walk of life.

Some people like to do 'kinky' stuff like bondage and spanking from time to time, some people like the idea of 'lifestyle' BDSM ie living in a situation where one person is the other's slave/property some people who do that just call it marriage. But there's no set, official way to do it, it's a matter of negotiating with the other person about what you do and don't want. Anyone telling you that you have to do it Like This is not only a liar but a loser and possibly an abuser.

McNewPants2013 Sat 27-Jul-13 02:37:53

I have just read some books. Some has made me think what the fuck are you doing others have made me think about the characters in bdsm relationships.

Like just about everything else viewed as odd/strange/kinky/not mainstream and Missionary and only done to procreate with the lights out, it is up to the people involved, and absolutely fuck all to do with anyone else.

NB: - within the all important parameters (as with ALL sex and relationships) of "Safe, Sane, and Consensual"

Bogeyface Sat 27-Jul-13 02:41:59

SGB I was with you until your strike out. Why the need to make a point? even though thats what you always do
McNew Each to their own. As you say, trust is the main thing. Assuming a non abusive relationship then it could work very well. Its not my thing, but I would never judge anyone else for embracing that lifestyle as long as it was not coerced in any way.

SignoraStronza Sat 27-Jul-13 02:48:18

Too much like hard work?!grin

BiscuitDunker Sat 27-Jul-13 02:49:50

"Each to their own" is my opinion on it...its either something you like and are interested in or its not. There's no harm in experimenting a little if you and your DP think its something you both might enjoy but its not for everyone.

Its not my cup of tea personally but I wouldn't judge anyone who did like it either. Although to be fair I think there has been something of a 'boom' in couples experimenting in that kind of bedroom activity thanks to the 50 shades of grey books so its probably more common/less taboo now than ever if you were wanting to give it a go OP

McNewPants2013 Sat 27-Jul-13 02:50:15

I am just thinking about it. I am intrested in other people views.

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

AgentZigzag Sat 27-Jul-13 02:59:31

Like any other kind of relationship or marriage it's only going to work out with a happy ending if there's an equal balance of power.

An unequal balance of power with BDSM thrown in, and it's abusive IMO.

But you can only see the 'truth' of the situation (ie that they're both fully consenting and happy with the situation) by looking at other aspects of the relationship.

Two independent people who lead fulfilled lives with no abusive background story, and it'd just be playing out fantasies (although I would wonder where wanting those particular feelings had been bound up with sex in the persons life, as I wouldn't see them as the product of a totally abuse free childhood).

But how many relationships actually fit that ideal? The two people themselves might not see the imbalance as someone from the outside would. Does that mean it exists/matters?

It's a bit of a minefield really, especially on MN where there's a nonjudgmental/anything goes mantra.

Might possibly have got that the wrong way round, but hey...have had enough bad sex to get it confused.Poor me!

AgentZigzag Sat 27-Jul-13 03:06:30

'Its not my cup of tea personally but I wouldn't judge anyone who did like it either.'

Would you really not think what it tells you about the people at all Biscuit?

Not even privately?

Because it's an everyday norm where you are, or you don't really like to say on a public forum and be judged for judging?

'BDSM relationships are probably healthier in many ways than your run of the mill sexual relationships' and 'there is a whole lot more conversation about peoples needs than in your average stick it in,'

Run of the mill sexual relationships aren't just your average 'stick it in', if they are, things aren't right generally. Crap you view regularly having sex without BDSM as that.

But I would direct McNewpants to other other sites. unless they are dead keen on getting feedback from random mothers/fathers on MN.

I would suggest that your enquiry is wholly prurient and without value to most MNetters.

You know, OP, as well as I, that niche interests will not be a major preoccupation here, and to ask simply shows you up as a rather random person with particular sexual interests, who is not brave enough or too arrogant, to actually engage fully with the MN cohort.

Agent, I was being a bit light hearted about it..sorry if that did not come across!

McNewPants2013 Sat 27-Jul-13 03:14:24

I don't think that I would ever be into that kind of relationship but each to there own.

All I wanted to know is what other people's views

yeah sure.

Start asking about BDSM at this time of night. wholly disinterested.

Post again tomorrow morning. You will get a, um, more comprehensive response.

In fact it is a dull question, by a seemingly dull OP.

MN is not actually some weirdy backwater a la League of Gentlemen.

try harder. Your editor awaits.

AgentZigzag Sat 27-Jul-13 03:21:34

That kind of looks like you're saying the OP's stirring because she's asked it on a site she usually uses MadameD? That she shouldn't post this thread because people who are into it don't want to read about what people who aren't think about it, because they don't understand it so can't have a valid opinion. (might have got the wrong end of the stick?)

But she's a regular poster, I haven't noticed what she normally posts about, but she can say what she likes, surely, without necessarily doing it because she gets a kick out of making someone feel uncomfortable about how they have sex.

If they feel uncomfortable/feel they have to justify themselves, then that's not a fantastic/secure sex life is it?

AgentZigzag Sat 27-Jul-13 03:23:53

Wow, you really don't like the thread do you MadamD shock

No need to shit on the OP, I've said more that could be taken as offensive than she has.

Honestly, she hasn't said anything one way or the other.

Too tired to get into this now. but in my experience an OP who posits random sexualised OPs late at night without fully engaging usually has another agenda. Forgive my cynicism.

btw, I actually luff you agent! just saying.

McNewPants2013 Sat 27-Jul-13 03:32:41

I tend to post late at night because its the only time I can.

I am not stirring or after a kick just wanting to understand a bit more about what I am reading.

I have also shared with the OP, not necessarily by experience but certainly anecdotal stuff, but the OP has significantly failed to engage with folk who took them seriously. Bad mark in my book.

Good for you. there are also plenty of websites devoted to these kind of practices where you could get a much more detailed response. may I suggest Informed Consent? I have heard that that is a very user-friendly site for interested parties.

<wish I had the inclination for even vanilla sex atm!>>

McNewPants2013 Sat 27-Jul-13 03:43:50

Perhaps I was wrong in posting, I think I been reading to many books.

AgentZigzag Sat 27-Jul-13 03:49:41

'btw, I actually luff you agent! just saying.'

Hahahahaha that made me laugh there grin (I've just listened to tale of two cities on audio thingy as well)

But if the OP doesn't know anything about it and isn't posting to have a pop at those who do, the best way is to be neutral about it isn't it?

I would expect a troll to say what freaks/deviants people are who are into it, possibly followed by 'discuss' or '<gavel>' to really get people's goat.

AgentZigzag Sat 27-Jul-13 03:51:11

Do I want to know what vanilla sex is?

Does it involve ice cream? Maybe a nice cornish clotted cream one?

BiscuitDunker Sat 27-Jul-13 03:53:09

Agent bdsm isn't the norm,as far as I know,where I am,its certainly not a feature in my life at least and I wouldn't care about being judged about my opinion,its my opinion,I'm entitled to it and I don't expect anyone or everyone to like/agree with anything I say,whether its on here or in rl.

I don't spend a lot of time thinking about what other people do in their private lives tbh. Plus I've heard enough sex life stories from my friends to know that what people do or don't do in the bedroom doesn't change my opinions of them.

Fwiw one of my oldest and closest best friends is into the bdsm lifestyle and has told me about some of the things she's tried and does and I don't think any differently about her for it-so to answer your question,no I wouldn't judge,not even privately,and it doesn't make me think about the type of person someone is. She's a great friend and always has been,her bedroom activities and everyone elses for that matter are not my business and are personal choice and preferance,its nothing to do with me smile

But McNewPants, you cant just wade in to Mn and ask random questions about quite out there sexual practices without engaging. You cant possibly expect people to engage with your curiousity without giving a bit back. I didn't see you engage with SGB or myself. which maybe erroneously, leads to believe you enquiry was not genuine. I am being up front about this.

McNewPants2013 Sat 27-Jul-13 04:01:35

I am sorry you feel like this Madame.

I really don't want to provoke anyone.

The reason I am up this late/early is because I live on 3-4 hours sleep.

It is the best of times it is the worst of times....etc...

I do think poor old Sidney should have run for the hillls.

vanilla sex is, as far I I know, conventional sexual practices. But my view is there is shite old vanilla cheapy stuff, and hard core proper vanilla clotted cream style sex. I am aware this might need another thread. grin

Then blinking well engage with us! Its your thread! contribute! engage! Debate! Tell everyone to fuck off! Whatever!

AgentZigzag Sat 27-Jul-13 04:06:06

It's not something I come across or think about...at all, really Biscuit.

But now I do, I can't help but wonder the origins of it in the person, whether there are any effects/consequences, whether they'd be any worse than a couple who aren't into it.

Maybe what makes me a bit uncomfortable are the roles, that there are other sexual practices that are illegal because of the imbalance of power in them, making it difficult to disengage this from them.

AgentZigzag Sat 27-Jul-13 04:08:13

'Then blinking well engage with us! Its your thread! contribute! engage! Debate! Tell everyone to fuck off! Whatever!'

You haven't said you are MadD, but if you were into it, I can't help guessing what role you'd prefer to take grin

McNewPants2013 Sat 27-Jul-13 04:10:29

Ok when I read books I realise that not all is true.

But do people really say master or sir, do the submissive or bottom really do any act the Dom see fit.

AgentZigzag Sat 27-Jul-13 04:18:21

Actually, because I'm usually about late at night and have just remembered a thread the OP posted a while back that I posted on (about number of sexual partners), which could explain why the OP's interested?

AgentZigzag Sat 27-Jul-13 04:19:26

Maybe that post's a step too far because it's the OP's business why she want's to know, sorry OP.

AgentZigzag Sat 27-Jul-13 04:19:51

I should STFU and go to bed grin

oh come on agent, that is seriously not fair.

Please don't speculate about my sexual preferences on a public site. If I wanted to share, I would do.

AgentZigzag Sat 27-Jul-13 04:22:58

Any bit in particular or all of it?

AgentZigzag Sat 27-Jul-13 04:25:51

Ahh that bit, the insinuation was pulling your leg and not said to make you feel uncomfortable.

Its not a subject I want to share. but if you really need to know i have endured chronic, severe depression for two years, and sex, kinky or not, has really not featured in my life. Getting up and feeding my child breakfast, snacks after school, dinner, then homework and a succumbing to lot of fucking sleep has really been my focus.

sorry my dear. sense of humour fail on my part.

aaaaghhhh! agent! honest! not being pa!

AgentZigzag Sat 27-Jul-13 04:34:12

I'm genuinely sorry you have to put up with that shit MadameD, thankfully I've never had depression, but I know people who do and it's just so debilitating, especially when other people who don't know what the secs/mins/hours/days/weeks/months/years feel like to live though, minimize it.

McNewPants2013 Sat 27-Jul-13 04:34:53

Madame I dont really care if people are into bdsm relationships, that is up to the person involved.

If you are into bdsm I have no right to judge other people's sex life.

This isn't about judging other people, I really do want to know more about a life style choice people make after reading about it.

thank you lovely agent.

OP, perhaps MN is not the best place, as I suggested earlier, to gather info on this topic.

AgentZigzag Sat 27-Jul-13 04:37:39

Hehe, don't worry, I'm not thinking anything of what you've said (apart from the bit about you luffing me, I may quote that elsewhere on MN at some point grin).

McNewPants2013 Sat 27-Jul-13 04:38:24

Just read your last reply, I hope you are getting the help and support you need. Depression is such a hard thing to treat and to get under control.

McNewPants2013 Sat 27-Jul-13 04:40:57

If MN isn't the place I will ask MNHQ to delete this thread and search else where.

OP, are you being willfully ignorant Did you not read my recent posts?

I would love to be into BDSM, or vanilla or whateva!

Unhappily for me I couldn't give flying fuck (ooh!) about sex atm.

happily for me I am emerging from depression and am feeling happy and buoyant for the first time in a few years! yay! so your rather nasty pa post goes over my head. bah! away with your "I've just read 50 Shades of Shite" enquiries. Being aware of others sexual preferences does not make them your own. And if I liked the whole BDSM thing I would have not hesitation in talking about it.

McNewPants2013 Sat 27-Jul-13 04:54:16

Madame I hope I am not being nasty, as you have said I have I do apologise for it

Got to agree with 50 shades of shite, I am not reading that, even though I have read it.

McNewPants2013 Sat 27-Jul-13 05:04:11

I have asked MN to delete this thread as I don't want to upset other posters.

well I would be surprised if they do. No one had a major spat, and am struggling to see how other posters would be offended.

But heigh ho!

I never said you were nasty, I said you were not engaging with the posters who were seriously engaging with you.

Still don't quite understand what it is you want from us.

Montybojangles Sat 27-Jul-13 05:41:44

YABU for not really posting an AIBU!

Why didn't you post in chat, or relationships?

My only view is whatever rocks your boat, as long as its 2 consenting adults. Not really my kind of thing though, I like my sexual relationship power neutral generally.

AnonymousKinkyCoward Sat 27-Jul-13 07:33:47

OP is confusing BDSM sex games with D/s (etc) lifestyle.

There are people who will do "anything" within the game because the illusion of being completely at the command and mercy of another person is something they find intoxicating and erotic. Equally there are people for whom the illusion of being in control is erotic etc. That's slightly separate from the idea of playing with pain as an aphrodisiac, although of course many will use both.

But the important thing is that in general this is within the game. There are time or practical limits to it really, and certainly sexual limits agreed in advance. If one or other party feels uncomfortable or wishes to stop or redirect the game then they use code words to make that clear without totally breaking the spell.

Within that framework, then, the role someone plays in real life and the role they take in the game can often be opposite. People whose careers are very pressured and senior can in some cases derive comfort from having certain decisions taken out of their hands; some people who are professionally powerless can use the game to assert themselves and feel empowered.

That is not to say that everyone fits that pattern, just that one absolutely cannot judge from a person's public behaviour what their bedroom behaviour might be - although of course that ought to go without saying.

The issue of D/s relationships - that is, playing the game for real, is much more complicated IMHO and not really related to sex. Taking responsibility for another adult's decisions, or abdicating responsibility for one's own decisions to another person, is not something to be taken lightly. It certainly more closely resembles a parent/child dynamic than that of an equal couple. In normal circumstances I would be vaguely worried that the kind of person who would want to have that real power over another wasn't a suitable partner for someone wanting that kind of control - that in too many cases the situation could be taken advantage of, either by a controlling/abusive person, or by someone trying to escape the real responsibilities of adulthood.

There exist a very few situations where an adult does benefit from having choices taken away - for example I'm thinking of a couple where her recovery from eating disorders hinged on the agreement that he got to tell her when and what to eat, while she physically recovered and learned both emotionally and digestively (?) how to eat normally. But that was a very particular situation and a temporary one.

Does that help at all, OP? For what it's worth, I would struggle to call DH "master" except with a hefty dollop of sarcasm, but I do call him "sir" within the game.

Now I must make sure I nc back very carefully before posting on any of my TIO...

Just popping back to add: Informed Consent closed down a few months ago that will teach that fucker to ban me and at the moment there isn't a particular site that covers the whole scene.

OP, have you been reading facts or fiction? If it's mainly fiction you've been reading please be aware that BDSM fiction is about as realistic as Lord Of The Rings or Eastenders - the story is what matters, not how plausible it is.
You could do worse than read some actual non-fiction on the subject. But right now I'm still not entirely sure what you want to know.

BoundandRebound Sat 27-Jul-13 08:27:34

I wonder how bdsm sits within feminist ideals, is it possible to be a sexual submissive and a feminist as a woman?

mrscynical Sat 27-Jul-13 08:46:04

Oh BoundandRebound, it is most certainly possible if YOU are the domme...

Montybojangles Sat 27-Jul-13 08:51:42

Why would you have to be the sexually submissive partner Bound?

This thread went a bit weird! Fwiw I think it's fine to ask this question on mumsnet.
I think bdsm sex is one thing, it doesn't float my boat (I couldn't be arsed with all the props and outfits and drama) but some people love that. I also suspect that pain would not make me turned on whatsoever so I'm not interested in trying it. Again, works for some. I think what I think is weird about bdsm is the way your sexual preference becomes a 'lifestyle' such as going to munches which aren't even about sex. I can't imagine going to a pub to meet a load of people who like vanilla sex, because it's not a very interesting (to others) part of my personality. But I suppose bdsm is often a group activity so it makes sense to develop a network.
I don't understand the degradation element of bdsm and I honestly do think there is something dodgy about a person who gets off on spitting in someone's mouth, or pissing on them, or calling them a fucking little slut whore. Likewise I think it's odd to enjoy those things. I think it would do such people well to question why they enjoy degrading/being degraded rather than just unquestioningly accepting it as part of their sexuality.

Living a bdsm lifestyle full time is insane. I can't understand that and I wouldn't want to.

BoundandRebound Sat 27-Jul-13 09:07:07

Oh there's no have to be, I just imagine that sexual proclivities are separate from social ideals so it might be possible for a woman, indeed a feminist, to want to be a sexual submissive and wondered how that would mesh

I don't actually know much about it, haven't even read shades of grey. Was just pondering

daisychain01 Sat 27-Jul-13 09:08:03

I realise that this thread has courted controversy before it began, but just giving an opinion, given that is what OP wanted.

I know very little about the relationship dynamics, although I know the mechanics of what goes on. To me, I cant think how it can ever give long term fulfilment, because I cant imagine it ever being a solid foundation on which to build a relationship. It is a "practice", it is something people do, but anything that defines the basis of a relationship and dominates a lifestyle, rather than just being one component of a bigger picture, must surely degrade the relationship over time, eventually get stale and so commonplace that it loses its edginess. Just like porn.

I think it happens when the people concerned have a skewed concept of what sex is about and where it fits in and how it adds value to a relationship.

The thing I am always skeptical about is when people have open relationships and say they are happy with that. No, they have so little self esteem, they have convinced themselves that is all they deserve. Maybe that the same as people wanting to beat each other to a pulp. Ultimately, they think they arent worth better!

Branleuse Sat 27-Jul-13 09:11:52

i think its noone elses business

lottieandmia Sat 27-Jul-13 09:14:53

I had a relationship which involved bdsm and it was very damaging to me indeed, both physically and psychologically and the man took advantage in order to express his violent tendencies.

The problem with mixing violence with sex (which is what it was in my case) is that an abuser is much more able to push your boundaries when you're having sex with them regularly and as the emotional attachment grew I got caught up in something really sinister and unhealthy.

The other person in my relationship used to crush my ribs and bite my face as well as the other things you would associate with bdsm. I was constantly covered in bruises and people would ask what the hell happened. He also would not stop when I asked him to.

I realise that not all bdsm relationships are like this and that in a mutually respectful one everything would have been discussed and agreed on in advance. But they certainly are something an abuser can use as an excuse to hurt their partner, because they are actually a sadist.

I am now in a relationship where we never do anything like that and never have and I'm very happy that I have got far enough away to see how unhealthy it was. But you know, at the time I believed I was enjoying it - it's dangerous ground imo.

I am a domme within my relationship, it started as simply sex and has spilled into our life, my pet calls me Mistress. Every d/s relationship is different, mine is built strongly on love, he wants and needs to please me. It makes him feel happy, there is minimal degradation, there is an element of punishment because he wants and needs it. We do on occasion switch roles but rarely and more when I need it and tell him to.

I am in control of everything, except his smoking habit. He is expected to show correct facing and ask when he wants things. He does what I tell him to. He was the one who initially encouraged it, it is always consensual and done through love.

Sexually, he puts my pleasure first, he only gets his release when I am fully satisfied and happy with him. Yes I 'take' him and he enjoys it. He wears a leather bracelet instead of a collar so he is reminded always.

I want to stress, at anytime he could talk to me frankly and decide he didn't want it in our lives just in sex or he wanted a more conventionally acceptable sex life in full. We would discuss it as equals and move away from the d/s elements. We love each other deeply and that remains firmly at the heart.

Montybojangles Sat 27-Jul-13 09:22:23

my pet calls me mistress quote of the day ChocolateTeacup grin

Sorry, I call him my pet smile

Montybojangles Sat 27-Jul-13 10:38:25

I'm starting to feel a bit tempted to try it myself now...

It was a great post by the way, very eloquent. And your relationship sounds great (feels slightly odd saying that about a less "conventional" relationship, but you sound very well balanced and caring of each other).

KateSMumsnet (MNHQ) Sat 27-Jul-13 12:16:22

McNewPants2013

I have asked MN to delete this thread as I don't want to upset other posters.

We try not to delete whole threads unless they break our talk guidelines, or if they turn into a bunfight. We will also may remove threads if it has too much personal info that could cause problems for the OP in real life.

So we're going to leave this thread as it is - but as ever, we will delete posts that break our talk guidelines.

mrscynical Sat 27-Jul-13 12:23:41

Monty - try looking at the Female Led Relationships website.

I am in a similar relationship to ChocolateTeacup and it is the best thing ever. My only regret is not discovering it many years ago.

Andro Sat 27-Jul-13 12:55:56

Would you really not think what it tells you about the people at all Biscuit?

In a relationship where the boundaries, limits and safe words had been openly discussed, it tells me that both parties know what they need and are confident enough to go after it.

BDSM can work, it can be balanced (albeit not in the same way as a vanilla relationship) and it can be healthy. Unfortunately, just like any other relationship it can be abusive, unhealthy and destructive. Whether in a specific scene or as a lifestyle, the undeniable truth of a safe and healthy encounter is that the Dom(me) only has the 'power' because the sub gifts it to them. The is no true domination without freely given submission, there is no freely given submission without trust and everything stops when a safe word is spoken.

Where submission isn't freely given, it's not D/s...it's abuse.
Where a safe word is ignored, it's not D/s...it's abuse.
Where hard limits are not respected, it's not D/s...it's abuse.

McNewPants2013 Sat 27-Jul-13 14:01:40

Those replys have been useful. I am not intrested in getting into that kind of relationship.

TiggyD Sat 27-Jul-13 16:28:11

It can be a bit tough on your carpets.

AgentZigzag Sat 27-Jul-13 16:40:14

Some men people undeniably get a kick out of having someone else completely at their mercy, especially when that person definitely isn't consenting.

And because the fine line between it being abusive or healthy is based on something intangible constructed in peoples heads, it's difficult for someone on the outside to judge whether the people are in an abusive relationship or not.

Obviously someone's sex life is their own affair, but if you were looking on at a family member who was saying everything was OK (and genuinely thought it was, like the poster (sorry can't find the name) who said she was black and blue but didn't realise how wrong it was until afterwards) but you didn't think they were, it could be argued that it is your business.

The same as if it were an out and out case of obvious DV and the man regularly raped the woman, would that be completely their own business? (and I understand/agree to some extent with the poster who might say it still would be private).

Is talking about it an important part of it Andro? I mean aside from the laying down of boundaries, that it's part of the 'build up' to the chase IYSWIM? Don't answer if that's being just a bit too nosy smile

Andro Sat 27-Jul-13 17:34:04

Communication is essential, without it no-one gets what they want/need. Negotiation shouldn't be part of the 'chase' because the discussion needs both parties to have personal authority, it's where 2 people find out if their kinks mesh well enough for a scene or not. The tone shouldn't be set until the boundaries are in place.

As part of a lifestyle, the structures tend to evolve with time and limits will be reviewed - what you are comfortable trying with a partner you've known for 3 years may be very different to what you will try with a partner of 3 months. When a safe word or caution word (safe word stops everything, caution word means slow down because something wrong) is used, there should always be a frank discussion of what happened, what went wrong, does there need to be a boundary in place etc.

When you're talking about a scene, it depends on familiarity, relationship, potential for relationship. Setting boundaries and discussing safe words/limits are things which might be established between 2 people who play regularly so a pre scene 'negotiation' might not be detailed - the discussion afterwards may well be more important (what was good/bad/scary/exciting/intriguing). With a partner you've never played with before, the negotiation is vital...and so is keeping the D/s dynamic out of it.

Dom(me)s beware though, if you are a member of a (reputable) club you will earn a reputation and be judged by it.

daisychain01 Sat 27-Jul-13 18:41:01

TiggyD grin - so true, don't have nylon carpets fitted or the sparks will really fly. But maybe carpet burns are all part of the fun?

McNewPants2013 Sat 27-Jul-13 20:18:23

I have been reading fiction. But would love to read a book based on facts.

I do have a few question, like how does the submissive have the ultimate power when it seems like the Dom does all the work.

The main question I think has been answered between the diffrence of abuse and BDSM relationship.

I was going to ask why do people getting that lifestyle, but then why do we do any body do what they do.

thebody Sat 27-Jul-13 20:25:18

bloody hell op!!

just asked my teen sons what bdsm is and after they looked shocked/ laughed they are now worried about my Internet usage.

TiggyD Sat 27-Jul-13 23:10:49

Try putting some tarpaulin down first. Or set aside a special room for it. NOT a conservatory though.

TiggyD Sat 27-Jul-13 23:11:42

Unless the conservatory has decent venetian blinds.

Do you know how to make a venetian blind?

Andro Sat 27-Jul-13 23:43:55

how does the submissive have the ultimate power when it seems like the Dom does all the work.

The sub has the ultimate power because in a safe, sane, consensual relationship/scene their safe word stops everything - no scene, no submission, no domination (and no recriminations for safe wording either).

ItsNotATest Sat 27-Jul-13 23:54:38

If you are not interested in getting into that kind of relationship, why are you persisting in asking questions about it?

The vast majority of people (of both genders) with a kink have no need for someone to come swooping in in some kind of saviour mode. Just in case that is what you are contemplating. Apologies, possibly, if it isn't.

AgentZigzag Sun 28-Jul-13 00:24:06

It's definitely not the kind of relationship I'd be into ItsNot, but I'm interested in finding out more about the dynamics, without any voyeuristic pervy side.

Posters on MN usually encourage people to find out about lifestyles/choices they don't know about don't they?

Why do you feel it's an off topic subject?

It can help (as it does anyway) to stop thinking about 'sex' as an activity that's special and totally different from every other kind of human behaviour. Things some people like and others find incomprehensible or unappealing include: rollercoasters, horror films, extreme sports, LARP, re-enactment, etc. Some people like dressing up, playing games, pushing or testing their minds/bodies in a safe, regulated way and others don't

There is a movement/organisation at the moment which is focussing on 'consent culture' and quite a few of the people involved in it are people with some interest or experience of the BDSM scene. They are interested in and concerned about abuse within BDSM relationships and how to prevent it, and also interested in spreading the idea of replacing 'consent' with 'freedom to negotiate' as an ethical standard to apply: if a person says 'Yes' to any kind of sexual activity, whether that's a heavy bondage session, a flogging, a group encounter or missionary-position-within-a-NORMAL-heterosexual-relationship, is the person in a position where s/he can say 'No' freely and without negative consequences such as sulking or withdrawal of support/affection?

ItsNotATest Sun 28-Jul-13 01:10:53

AgentZigzag I don't think it's a taboo subject. Not at all. I'm just a little hmm about the OP's motives, maybe unnecessarily, hence the "apologies, possibly" smile.

Minimal effort googling would lead you directly to places where all these answers, and much more, are abundantly clear from half an hour's lurking. This is a bit of an odd place for it, unless you are trying to stir up a debate about your own ethical issues around it. Which is fine, as long as you are upfront about what you are doing.

Upfront is highly regarded in the BDSM world grin

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 28-Jul-13 01:18:20

They're fine.

But injuries that occur can become legally problematic in the UK. Even with informed consent cases can and have been brought to trial. Informed consent only goes so far.

Mind boggles how scarification is legal..

McBalls Sun 28-Jul-13 01:41:20

I have had a bit of an interest in this over the years and have come to the conclusion that every. Single. Person who identifies as being into the Bdsm lifestyle is a loser. Really. Social reject territory.

Forays onto fetlife and a couple of kink get-togethers cured me of any desire in that direction.

Give me fuckwitted mundane "vanilla" (stupid twee term) sex with a normal, healthy, sane human being over weird, stilted fraeks who cannot function in the real world without wipe-down props EVERY TIME.

AgentZigzag Sun 28-Jul-13 02:00:55

<sits forward in chair>

McBalls Sun 28-Jul-13 02:10:27

I'll regret that little piece of over-share in the morning.

AgentZigzag Sun 28-Jul-13 02:11:54

That you will McBalls, that you will grin

ItsNotATest Sun 28-Jul-13 02:30:01

Name change time? grin

AgentZigzag Sun 28-Jul-13 02:35:46

Naaa, true viper that she is, I'm sure McBallsofsteel will brazen it out.

grin

(viper status only projected assumed)

ItsNotATest Sun 28-Jul-13 02:53:18

I'm sure she will ride it out if she wants to grin

Just to temper that post a little. I have also hung around the edges of both the BDSM and swinging worlds a bit. Indeed there are a lot of losers. But they are not all losers. I'm most definitely not I would say that but I'm still in touch with a number of people, some who still dabble, some who don't, some who are now in conventional relationships with or without a continuing interest in that world. You would meet them socially and have no idea, I promise smile.

Having said that, I also know some people who got badly bitten by it. It isn't for everyone. But we don't all need saving grin

Yes, there are losers on the fetish scene: whiners, self-obsessed bores, bullies, etc. But I've met far more losers in the mundane world. Ignorant misogynists, frightened conformists, monogaqmy obsessives who can't cope with other people wanting to live differently, fucking tedious people with no interest other than shopping and sleb culture, people terrified to step out of their comfort zone and say or do anything that might make them appear a bit unusual. After 25 years in and around the fetish scene I know the kind of people I prefer to mix with, and after three horrible years of bewildered isolation among non-weird people when DS was very small, I'm glad I have the friends I have.

McNewPants2013 Sun 28-Jul-13 13:19:08

I have been googling 'what is bdsm' and all I was getting is the definition.

Even though I wouldn't get into it, it has sparked an intrest in it.

It interesting reading real people views.

ComposHat Sun 28-Jul-13 13:26:25

Are they the big driving school? If so, I would prefer to go with a local driving instructor with a good reputation.

compo??

oh my.

TiggyD Sun 28-Jul-13 13:34:20

Good idea to go for a bdsm driving instructor. So much easier to learn when you're wearing nipple clamps.

quote of the week for me tiggy

ComposHat Sun 28-Jul-13 13:38:00

I would be worried that the gimp mask would restrict my vision whrn doing a three point turn.

Solari Sun 28-Jul-13 13:41:27

I'd like to believe that people can be into this and still be healthy/have healthy relationships, and maybe they can, but unfortunately not in my experience.

I got 'introduced' into some practices by a friend who had a 'sub' relationship with a guy (which ultimately culminated in some really nasty abuse).

Tried out 'sub' myself, and met some really nasty characters who did use it as a way to set the scene for abuse. Included occluding my mouth/nose in order to get off watching me struggle to breath. Again, not saying all are like this, just the few in my experience! I was also in a really vulnerable/unhealthy place at the time.

Decided to try out 'dom' instead, but couldn't get over the guilt aspect of it as I didn't enjoy meting out any of the punishments people wanted. Got out finally after one rather obsessive person wanted to get in a bathtub and have me light him on fire (with a bucket on standby for when he "couldn't take it any more"). I literally felt broken-hearted for the guy because I can't rationalise that kind of 'desire' away without some serious self-hatred or psychological damage being at play.

Again, I had a rather warped life for a while, and met a lot of messed-up individuals, and perhaps in that context, bdsm is a no-go. No idea how it would work with healthier individuals involved.

Not for me is my view.

MoominsYonisAreScary Sun 28-Jul-13 13:50:04

I don't think it's something I'd want to try but it is interesting reading people's views.

AgentZigzag Sun 28-Jul-13 16:30:16

If you ever thought about the fire bloke Solari (which I can imagine you'd do your best to avoid thinking about him) did you ever come to a conclusion as to why/how being set on fire and sex had become linked?

I don't even know you and I'm relieved you didn't do it, it must be very difficult to come to terms with the knowledge you're capable of doing such a thing to another person (maybe in a Millgram way).

I'm not laughing at you feeling bewildered and isolated SGB, as I often feel that myself, but the image of you standing with alarm on your face, getting crowded in by zombie like Non-Weirds, did make me laugh grin

Solari Sun 28-Jul-13 17:40:52

AgentZigzag It was quite complicated reasons when he actually got into it, and I asked him a lot of questions (like to understand the roots of these things).

He equated fire with some sort of Divine being, or entity with massive power over him, "like the closest you can get to God" - in his words. He also had massive guilt over things he'd perceived himself as having done wrong (stemming from severe criticisms/chastisement in childhood).

Without an adult or authority figure to 'punish' him anymore, he sought a kind of ultimate relief by offering himself up to "Fire" (personified) as a replacement. Being burned and suffering pain was his punishment, and being allowed to live and not entirely consumed by the fire was his salvation - his kind of "OK" sign to keep living from God.

He was entirely aware that his practice of burning himself (which he did when not helped by others) could end up killing him, and in fact that was a necessary part of the experience for him, that death could be possible, and pain inevitable.

He was a very, very tortured individual, and I do still think of him actually because I wish I could have reached out to him in some way that would have made a difference. But it was like he was too far gone, or too far away, and so desperately clinging that I had to be another person to cut him off completely.

AgentZigzag Sun 28-Jul-13 18:13:04

Poor bloke sad

Thanks for answering.

Andro Sun 28-Jul-13 18:26:55

Mind boggles how scarification is legal..

Arguably, the same could be said about tattooing...

Solari Sun 28-Jul-13 19:37:23

Missed the bit about scarification <pricks up ears>. Its definitely at the mild end of the spectrum though when you consider things like tongue-splitting and suspension (hanging from hooks in your skin).

Body Modification

Solari Sun 28-Jul-13 19:38:17

Sorry, should put a trigger-warning for that body-mod link, some of it is quite graphic, and some parts may be triggering/disturbing.

AgentZigzag Sun 28-Jul-13 19:48:45

What you do to yourself is different to two people hurting each other Andro.

Possibly?

It's up to you whether you kill/maim yourself as it's your body, but hurting someone else enough to bruise/cut would be illegal if it was in another situation, like when someone's prosecuted for punching their partner, regardless of whether the partner withdraws their complaint or not.

But then that would put tattooists/doctors/dentists in the firing line because they hurt other people confused

The difference has to be the intent behind it?

Drs etc are strictly regulated by the state, but in a private relationship it's not possible to be sure of the intent or make an accurate measurement of it.

AgentZigzag Sun 28-Jul-13 19:50:26

When I first read about medical violence I was quite surprised because you don't think of what they do as violent because it's for caring reasons, but it is, without a doubt.

AgentZigzag Sun 28-Jul-13 19:54:23

I wonder how doctors come to terms with hurting other people.

Is the caring reason behind it enough to overcome any guilt/distress.

Anyone up for posting a separate thread on that one? grin

LEMisdisappointed Sun 28-Jul-13 20:04:01

What do you mean by a bdsm relationship? Do you mean a relationship in which both parties indulge in bondage and sado masochism? or do you mean a relationship in which someone is totally submissive to the other, possibly with S&M involved?

I have been into bdsm for some time, although in all honesty, not really that much over the past few years - it has sort of lost its novelty/appeal.

I have considered being totally submissive - why? because i suffer from anxiety and the thought of someone else making all my decisions for me and not having to think for myself has a deep appeal at times. I have a partner who i trust 100% with my life, and i would also trust him to have my best interests at heart - but trust him to make the right decision??? ARE YOU MAD????? grin In theory, its all very romantic and it does have a regular role in my fantasies but that is where it would have to stay for me! I am too much of a control freak and a feminist.

As to S&M we have indulged and it is a massive adrenalin rush, in fact its like nothing on this earth (ruling out drugs as i have never taken them) in terms of a "high".

It works for us, to be fair we don't do it very often now as it is ME that is the leader in terms of wanting it rather than DP. DP indulges me rather than the other way around and he has never ever gone too far as he knows when i want to stop, we don't have a safe word, as stop and no mean what they say. I'm not into role play but i admit that feeling of vulnerability is intoxicating. My fantasies are extreme, our reality is tame and loving.

Solari Sun 28-Jul-13 20:04:40

In working with them for a portion of my life, I've reached the following conclusions (just my personal opinion):

a) They have a single-minded focus to "do what's best", and literally block everything else out.

b) They don't care, numbed by their own stresses and personal issues.

c) Doctors, like every other population, have a small percentage of sociopaths and sadists (unfortunately).

LEMisdisappointed Sun 28-Jul-13 20:04:49

Do doctors hurt people?? if they do, i suggest they are doing it wrong wink

Solari Sun 28-Jul-13 20:06:40

I think the doctors hurting people is referencing the violence some women experience from them during childbirth, as in having procedures they didn't consent to, or are actually screaming "No!" at. There was a thread about it recently (might still be running).

LEMisdisappointed Sun 28-Jul-13 20:11:21

oh, that is quite different solari, sorry sad I have a few friends who are doctors and they are very blase about things though - I do think there is a high level of arrogance in the medical profession too, but as you say, that is quite another thread.

AgentZigzag Sun 28-Jul-13 20:59:03

It's not just the violence of the symptoms, the dehumanisation of patients allows medical interventions that are not always in the interests of those patient.

That the intrusive/violent procedures performed (which most medical procedures could be defined as), aren't necessarily because of any care for the patient, there are other factors which inform the decision of the doctor etc (arrogance/public health/gatekeeping funds).

Doctors must realise this is happening and have to live with it.

And they obviously do given all the failings in hospitals being made public recently, and have just met criticisms defensively, close ranks, and aren't past outright lying about what they do.

LEMisdisappointed Sun 28-Jul-13 21:11:09

I get that Agent, my mum has a pituitary tumour. It is benign and she has had it for the best part of 50 years. She has already had to have her adrenal cortex (or medulla, i cant remember) removed as that was the treatment back when she was diagnosed all those years ago. With recent developments in medical physics etc, they wanted her to have something called a "gamma knife" to shrink/remove the tumour. I have a bioscience background so questioned the doctors on the need for this to happen - as in, what would the benefits be and risks. IMO there wasn't any benefits as there would be no change in my mums condition, her adrenals are gone so she will still need steroid replacement therapy, there would be no change to her treatment regieme and there was no significant risk of future malignancy. The doctors faces were a picture when i said, "you know what, i really don't think this is a good idea" They had to agree that the benefits would be minimal and im buggered if my mother was going to be a guinea pig for their new toy and told them as such. Had i not been there she would have had agreed to highly invasive treatment she didn't need.

AgentZigzag Sun 28-Jul-13 21:31:10

Most people are still encouraged to trust them without question, which is helpful if you're having a painful procedure, but (same as police) they're fallible, and that's frightening, so not many people tend to question them (selective ignorance is bliss).

It takes real balls to do that, bloody good for you LEM.

I know from being in hospital myself, that it only takes a day or two to be institutionalised by their routines, you very easily start submitting yourself to the dehumanisation process, which makes it much easier for them to see you in terms of stats/research they've read/what they've been taught/tradition.

Although saying these things, I've always found any times I've had in hospital/doctors to have left me with huge admiration for the fantastic people who work there (probably because I've wholeheartedly submitted and left my dignity at the door grin)

McNewPants2013 Sun 28-Jul-13 21:36:57

The books I read is normally a women who isn't very confident in sex and perhaps doesn't deserve to have sex.

Normally the subs are in control of every thing and this is one part of her life that she has no control over.

The Dom kind of gets what the sub needs and will push past what she thinks she needs.

I don't get why the need to use things like floggers and whips, but that because if you loved someone why would you want to hurt that person.

McNewPants2013 Sun 28-Jul-13 21:39:08

In the medical world, if someone has a dislocated sholder that needs resetting. It may be painful to reset but then the healing can begin and the patient then can live a life without pain.

AgentZigzag Sun 28-Jul-13 21:48:27

Setting a dislocated shoulder is a violent event, where both people have to submit to the procedure.

It's only viewed as necessary violence because you can see the obvious result, but not every procedure is as black and white.

It just comes down to how we've constructed different acts of violence.

Some are legal and you could define as necessary, others aren't, but the boundaries are always shifting over time, and if they can be shifted, what makes one boundary right over another one?

It's acceptable to forcibly sterilise women in China some some societies now, and in the past in WWII, but we've drawn the boundary that it's not OK to violate someone in such a way. Thank. Fuck.

BDSM isn't illegal (in most cases), and why it's not (not that I think it should be or anything) is interesting.

McNewPants2013 Sun 28-Jul-13 22:05:58

I don't think it should be illegal. I suspect that in a bdsm relationship things can turn abusive and when that happens the relationship should stop immediately.

I think that why safe words are important in this relationship. Because if it something that the sun don't want and she uses the safe word it goes from a bdsm relationship to one that is abusive.

McNewPants2013 Sun 28-Jul-13 22:09:34

So taking my example if the patient refused to have the procedure done, then it would be assault and an abuse of power.

AgentZigzag Sun 28-Jul-13 22:30:36

But whether it's legal or illegal depends on one persons private thoughts, which are impossible to measure.

Outward consent and it's a private sexual act, lack of obvious consent and it's abuse.

McNewPants2013 Sun 28-Jul-13 22:35:52

I am going for an extreme example.

We all know that once a person says stop to sex if another person continues in normally cases it would be rape, but if a sub says stop then the Dom don't it isn't rape. Because it could be the game is getting to much as she says stop but wants it to continue. However if she uses the safe word then he stops that the right thing however if he doesn't then it would be rape.

Is that the correct way to think

AgentZigzag Sun 28-Jul-13 22:43:29

I reckon that's a really good example of exactly what I'm saying.

Does it matter if you can't tell because it's a private situation between two people?

It goes a long way to explaining the excuses a lot of people come up with as to how rape isn't rape, someone can always argue it was something else because the act isn't a tangible entity you can look at objectively.

To the man it wasn't rape but to the woman it was.

McNewPants I think your problem is that the fiction you have been reading is fairly crap. As to the example you've just given: yes it's rape if the dom doesn't stop when asked to. However, one of the reasons people who are into BDSM use safewords is that, for some participants, the fantasy/roleplay of saying no while meaning yes is part of the fun, so the safeword is something like 'Red' or 'Sugarlumps' so it's a clear indication that the game is over.

But unfortunately there is no social/cultural/subcultural group of people which is totally free of abusers. Being into BDSM and aware of good negotiating practice won't completely guarantee you are safe from abuse. Avoiding BDSM because it's weird shit done by sickoes won't guarantee you are safe from abuse either.

McNewPants2013 Sun 28-Jul-13 22:58:08

I am in no fear of being abused by my husband. ( I hope any way)

I think after starting this thread I understand that not every relationship is the same.

nickymanchester Sun 28-Jul-13 23:07:32

As LEMisdisappointed said above

I'm not into role play but i admit that feeling of vulnerability is intoxicating. My fantasies are extreme, our reality is tame and loving.

and I can totally go along with the rest of her post.

Outside of the bedroom I am, I will admit, rather bossy. But there's nothing I like better than being forcibly tied to the bed and having naughty things done to me.

Or being spanked and then having my DH ... TMI, I'll stop there.

This works for me on a number of different levels, both physically and pscychologically.

Although, as AnonymousKinkyCoward said right at the start of this thread, this is all just part of a game we play sometimes in the bedroom when we are both in the mood - not a full time lifestyle thing.

There is a wide spectrum of bdsm that people can be on, even without identifying as being such - or perhaps that should be spectra? There are a number of different, albeit related, activities involved here.

For example, somebody who really likes being tied to the bed and being taken advantage of may get absolutely nothing out of physical pain. So don't always assume that everybody on the bdsm spectrum - god, that makes it sound like a disease or something - is into everything, as they very definitely are not.

I would suggest that an absolutely tiny number of people are into a lifestyle bdsm thing but a very large number of people do find aspects of bdsm exciting.

For example, has your partner ever held your wrists above your head, pinning you to the bed while having sex - or have you done it to him? Or has he ever given you a playful spank on the bum?

These are bdsm activities - these are all very mild bdsm things to do.

AgentZigzag Sun 28-Jul-13 23:17:44

'But unfortunately there is no social/cultural/subcultural group of people which is totally free of abusers.'

But because the act is one of violence which we are intolerant (as such) of it in this society, in a lot of people's minds the illegal and legal are not easy things to tease apart.

If you believe the reason a person who got to the point of getting off on violence is rooted in their past, that something distressing/traumatic happened to influence them in that direction, then surely as a group of people they're going to be more likely to have different ethical/moral values to the norm.

And that can be worrying to some because we like things to be predictable, if someone's singing from a different hymn sheet then what else are they capable of doing?

McNewPants2013 Sun 28-Jul-13 23:21:58

I have to say yes he has, and I haven't had a problem with it.

nickymanchester Sun 28-Jul-13 23:29:56

If you believe the reason a person who got to the point of getting off on violence is rooted in their past, that something distressing/traumatic happened to influence them in that direction

Well, I've got no distressing/traumatic issues at all with my past and I've certainly got no problem with my DH spanking me from time to time - quite the opposite, in fact.

You and your partner should perhaps learn how to do it well - spanking for example - and give it a go before condemning it or, at least, accept that it is wrong to think that just because something isn't a turn on for you that there must be something wrong with people who do find it a turn on.

As was said by another MNetter on a different thread - YKINMK Your kink isn't my kink

AgentZigzag Mon 29-Jul-13 00:46:44

I should give sexual violence a go before I make up my mind about it nicky.

Err, no ta.

I have opinions on all sorts of things without having any direct experience of them, as I'm sure you do.

Zigzag, that's a bit like saying that if people are not heterosexual, there must be something wrong with them. For people who are generally mentally healthy, an interest in BDSM is not that different from an interest in horror films/rollercoasters/extreme sport. It is, or can be, about challenging your body or your mind in a safe, controlled way. And there is a really big range of behaviours and activities that could be considered BDSM-related but which are fun, safe and quite widely enjolyed. Even the wussiest, most screamingly heteronormative sex manuals might suggest dressing up for sex, for example, or blindfolding one partner so as to increase their awareness of their other four senses.

AgentZigzag Mon 29-Jul-13 01:00:42

But you have equally strong opinions of non-weirds SGB.

How are those valid opinions if you've never experienced non-wierdness yourself <bites lip>

grin

I'm not condemning anyone who's into it, like you've said, anyone can be abusive at any time.

But as I said before, the link of violence with sex can be a pattern played out by people who commit hideous crimes. That's not saying anyone into it are going to escalate into something else, but as serious violent sexual assaults are usually an escalation of behaviour from benign fantasies played out in private onto more and more public/serious offences, the two aren't completely unconnected.

McNewPants2013 Mon 29-Jul-13 01:03:30

Agent, you don't have to. but have you ever had a sexual fantasy you would like to act on, but there is something stopping that

What I have learnt after some poster kindly PM on what sites to go on is that bdsm is about acting out a fantasy and the Dom is there to be able to do that.

I have a lot better understanding on BDSM relationships.

It does sound quite erotic and reading true life isnt the same as books, but for my relationship it just wouldn't work.

nickymanchester Mon 29-Jul-13 11:13:41

AgentZigzag I'm not condemning anyone who's into it

Oh yes you are. What did you post just a bit earlier?

If you believe the reason a person who got to the point of getting off on violence is rooted in their past, that something distressing/traumatic happened to influence them in that direction

I really do think you are incredibly narrow minded in saying the above.

So, the only reason that I like to be tied up occasionally by my DH and do other things is that I MUST have had something distressing/traumatic happen to me in the past?

To me, you sound as though you are saying that I am in some way damaged by my past and that is the only reason for enjoying these things.

Well, sorry to disappoint you, but I had a really great childhood and a great time as a teenager and in my 20s as well.

serious violent sexual assaults are usually an escalation of behaviour from benign fantasies played out in private onto more and more public/serious offences

This really is a load of rubbish. Are you seriously trying to suggest that sexual assaults usually happen because the attacker had previously spanked his partner on the bum a couple of times or done something similar?

AgentZigzag Mon 29-Jul-13 11:40:13

'That's not saying anyone into it are going to escalate into something else'

I did say it doesn't necessarily lead on from one to the other, but 'serious violent sexual assaults are usually an escalation of behaviour from benign fantasies played out in private onto more and more public/serious offences' isn't rubbish at all, I didn't say they had to be BDSM fantasies, they can involve children, young women, hoovers, the subjects are as varied as the people themselves.

I've tried not to be offensive in what I've said, if you take my opinion as narrow mindedness I can live with that. It just means I think one thing is more probable than another.

Zigzag, this stuff about fantasies escalating to actual assault it bullshit. Everyone has fantasies, not all of them sexual. People who enjoy sex do not invariably escalate to rape (rape is not about sex and never has been, anyway).

As to 'experiencing non'wierdness' I didn't grow up in a satanic dungeon. I did grow up in a suburb and therefore have direct experience of wilful ignorance and self-righteous conformism, and those are the things that I despise in 'mundanes' not necessarily their actual sexual preference/taste in music/dress sense.

AgentZigzag Mon 29-Jul-13 12:44:01

Saying people who commit violent sexual assaults escalate from fantasies SGB, isn't saying people who have fantasies will go on to offend.

If you look at the background of men who rape and kill children and how they got to that point, fantasies and violent pornography figure largely in it.

In some peoples minds, the two can be mixed up so they think fantasies inevitably lead on to offending. You've just got it mixed up yourself SGB, trying to make out that's what I was saying. I've tried to be careful to separate the two and say it was the reason some think BDSM is a dodgy practice, rather than it's what I personally think.

And I was joking about the non-weirds, no need to feel you should justify yourself.

More people escalate to hideous violence after getting involved with hardcore religion. Stigmatizing BDSM as 'full of wierdos' and 'violent pornography' as the root cause of actual sexual assault is not only wrong but dangerous. The current business about internet censorship is not remotely about 'protecting children'. it's about the government taking control of the internet. Child abuse images are just a convenient justification and an easy way to make the non-thinking majority accept a serious and dangerous restriction of their freedom - object to state censorship for dubious purposes and with no justification and you must be a child abuser or a terrorist...

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