To be sick of the current public slating off teachers!

(380 Posts)
Belle15 Thu 25-Jul-13 20:58:26

Just feel teachers are criticised from all angles at the moment and we work damn hard for very little financial gain or thanks!! Would like to see any of the people moaning about us actuallu spend a day in our shoes.Needed a rant! confused

Belle15 Thu 25-Jul-13 21:00:35

Of not off! Embarrassing smile

thebody Thu 25-Jul-13 21:01:13

some teachers work hard, some coast and some are dire. as a parent if 4 and a TA I have known all 3 types.

however that's the same with any career/job isn't it? nurses, doctors etc.

think social workers get far worse press.

ArtexMonkey Thu 25-Jul-13 21:01:46

Plz tell me yo freaky ass is not an English teacher op. other than that, yanbu homie.

thismousebites Thu 25-Jul-13 21:01:55

Think yourself lucky you're not a banker.
Look how much shit they get.smile

I haven't noticed the criticising Belle.

manicinsomniac Thu 25-Jul-13 21:03:32

sorry Belle but YABU

I'm a teacher and feel that I work very hard (as do most other adults) for plenty of financial gain (way above average salary) and more thanks than most people would get in their jobs (cards and presents from grateful 'customers')

Many people would hate to do a teacher's job but I would hate to do many of their jobs too. Horses for courses.

timidviper Thu 25-Jul-13 21:04:13

You are probably right, I wouldn't like to be a teacher, in fact I would hate it.

Having said that, we do see substantially more moaning from teachers than from other professions who are probably equally stressed, overworked, underpaid, etc, both on here and in the general news. Maybe it is like charity fatigue and this is a backlash

SoleSource Thu 25-Jul-13 21:04:29

IME of teachers there are far, far more good than bad.

If it helps my 11 year old DS sobbed all the way home from school yesterday as he was leaving his Year 6 teacher who he idolised. I wanted to cry myself-he is a brilliant teacher.

Belle15 Thu 25-Jul-13 21:07:13

We are constantly told we don't do enough, should work longer, be paid less etc. The government are raging a war against teachers and using the media to justify it.
You are right though many other professions are being treated just as badly. Just feel that the public support the nurses etc far more. Don't get me wrong nurses do an amazing job and deserve the full support of the public; they are overworked and underpaid. Just wish teachers were appreciated more for what we do. Most teachers I know work themselves to the bone often at cost of their own families/children

WorraLiberty Thu 25-Jul-13 21:07:50

You'll find well deserved and undeserved criticism of all professions OP

Not sure why you're getting your knickers in a knot?

GetStuffezd Thu 25-Jul-13 21:09:12

I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that although there are of course teachers at both ends of the competence scale, there are a hell of a lot of mediocre teachers sitting nicely at the top of the pay scale, trotting out the same old planning every year, hostile to change or innovation, not really contributing an awful lot.
Who knows though - if they get the results, maybe that's ok?

JustPanicking Thu 25-Jul-13 21:10:00

I am a teacher and I really do think it is the unions which give us a bad name. I've lost count of the number of times I have read about a grievance teachers supposedly have despite never having thought about it or heard anyone else discussing it. Closing schools when it hits 26 degrees being one such 'issue'.

Belle15 Thu 25-Jul-13 21:11:08

I would argue most teachers earn far less than people in other professions with the same skills set and responsibilities. Especially as they are now cutting pay scales. Effectively a new teacher could remain on 21k indefinitely whilst the average national salary is 26k!

SirChenjin Thu 25-Jul-13 21:12:46

What Worra says.

My DCs have had some amazing teachers over the years, some fairly good ones and a couple of crap ones who deserve all the criticism levelled at them - same as anyone.

Belle15 Thu 25-Jul-13 21:12:47

Maybe I'm just too hormonal today! Who knows! Lol

gloucestergirl Thu 25-Jul-13 21:13:02

As it teacher it really pees me off. The lack of respect for teachers trickels down to the kids. People then wonder why groups of teenagers can be unteachable, which makes teaching harder and teachers look less effective. A whole downward spiral.

Everyone has an opinion on being a parent because they were once a child and then quickly revises their opinion on actually having a child themselves. It is exactly the same with teaching. I think just because you once went to school, doesn't mean that you understand what teaching is like as a job. Only people who have stood in front of a class week in week out can fully understand.

Also kids can be dreadful judges of teachers. Some childrens' perception of what goes on in a classroom can be a million miles from reality. (Also teachers who give out sweets are generally the most popular.)

manicinsomniac Thu 25-Jul-13 21:13:10

GetStuffezd - yes there are and I don't think it matters. The school where I work is fairly evenly divided into the 'live to work-ers' and the 'work to live-ers'. I live to work but I don't think that necessarily makes me right. I may give everything to my job but others give everything to their families whereas mine suffers from benign neglect! And others give everything to enjoying their lives and hey, as long as they are doing their job, why the hell not, you only live once!

XBenedict Thu 25-Jul-13 21:14:56

Oh I know OP it's demoralising but it's not exclusive to teachers.

I'm a nurse and have felt quite down at times about the bashing we seem to get so I feel your pain smile

GetStuffezd Thu 25-Jul-13 21:15:17

Fair point well made, manic!

WorraLiberty Thu 25-Jul-13 21:18:16

Especially as they are now cutting pay scales. Effectively a new teacher could remain on 21k indefinitely whilst the average national salary is 26k!

The way I understand it, teachers remaining on a lower scale will be the ones doing the least?

In other words, they're no longer guaranteed a wage rise while putting in very little effort?

I think this is fair because some teachers never seem to stop working. They're taking before school clubs, lunchtime clubs and after school clubs etc...yet the teachers who just do the basic amount, are moving up the pays scale alongside them.

icetip Thu 25-Jul-13 21:19:27

Belle
If a new teacher remains on 21k indefinitely I suspect it'll be because they're performing particularly badly - and I doubt this will be a regular occurrence.

AnnabelleLee Thu 25-Jul-13 21:19:40

What do you teach? Please tell me its not grammar, "lol".

GetStuffezd Thu 25-Jul-13 21:20:52

But those clubs are voluntary, Worra. Should teachers be remunerated for voluntary activities or perhaps on results/classroom performance?

LongGoneBeforeDaylight Thu 25-Jul-13 21:21:08

For me it's all the teachers on my facebook being like "thank god it's summer holidays now!" And then "only 5 weeks til half term" and they are working 12 hour days, I get that, but it looks lazy to someone who works 11 hour days 48 weeks a year. It just looks like they never want to be at work.

WorraLiberty Thu 25-Jul-13 21:24:21

But those clubs are voluntary, Worra. Should teachers be remunerated for voluntary activities or perhaps on results/classroom performance?

Both imo

A teacher who barely scrapes through with a decent assessment and does bugger all else, shouldn't automatically move up the pay scale every couple of years.

But that's how it's been up until now.

Passmethecrisps Thu 25-Jul-13 21:25:07

I do get what you are saying.

I also get the point about banging on on Facebook about holidays.

I try to roll with the punches. If you want the BBC breakfast news every morning you can spot a pattern - teachers, NHS/nurses are rubbish, supermarkets, bin collections.

It's a job at the end of the day. Don't get me wrong, I love it (I was once flamed on here for saying I loved it) but I try to let the bullshit wash over me.

Belle15 Thu 25-Jul-13 21:25:51

Well in my school all staff members NQTs included must run an after-school club and from their second year must co-ordinate a subject. In addition to this we have to attend and help out with termly discos and PTA fayers, attend parents evenings until late at night and organise and risk assess school trips. This is in addition to the million other things and yet this would all be expected at my school and not necessarily enough to guarantee a pay rise under the new guidelines. I completely agree that their should be a way to weed out those lazy teachers sitting at the top of the pay scale but in reality this is just opening up a can of worms regarding school politics. From experience I know heads will cut money where they can and if they can get you to do it for free they will. It also adds to the problem of heads promoting and paying their 'favourites' and means that if you are not 'in' with SMT you can wave goodbye to a decent wage

ilovesooty Thu 25-Jul-13 21:26:03

I would argue most teachers earn far less than people in other professions with the same skills set and responsibilities

As a former teacher, I disagree with you. I think what keeps most unhappy teachers in the job is that they lack the skills to be employable elsewhere, let alone on a comparable salary.

There are wonderful, inspiring teachers and some very poor ones.

What hacks me off is Gove and Wilshaw's agenda and their shameless manipulation of the media to privatise education and move it into the corporate world. It will damage education in such a way that it will never recover.

Oh...and of course teaching is probably unique in its tendency for the public to have a total lack of understanding of what the job entails.

Passmethecrisps Thu 25-Jul-13 21:27:23

^want should be watch.

Doh.

The pay increments are not indefinite.

In Scotland we had a system which ensured excellent classroom practitioners stayed in the classroom but were financially rewarded in the same way as management. It was scrapped. Go figure.

morethanpotatoprints Thu 25-Jul-13 21:27:32

We don't use schools anymore, but totally agree that until you've experienced teaching you have no idea. I have nothing but respect for teachers and in the whole believe they do a good job.

Belle15 Thu 25-Jul-13 21:28:54

There not their! I am shockingly poor tonight but I blame lazy typing, tiredness and my rubbish iPhone keypad which has a mind of it's own!

Passmethecrisps Thu 25-Jul-13 21:29:34

What ilovesooty says. All of it.

I am not sure I agree people should be 'made' to do extra-curricular stuff. At the end of the day it should be about excellent learning and teaching. It's measuring that which is the problem.

GetStuffezd Thu 25-Jul-13 21:30:36

Hmm, I'm not sure about that. As a teacher of five years, (therefore approaching top of main scale) I'm absolutely certain my class are receiving a far superior quality of education than my class when I was in my earlier years. It's inevitable as improvement comes with experience. So, I think I'm justified in my increased salary for the better quality teaching I'm giving, regardless of the clubs I may or may not take on.

Haven't considered it all properly yet, but I wouldn't be happy at the idea of extra curricular clubs affecting my pay.

XBenedict Thu 25-Jul-13 21:30:45

But it's the same in lots of professions isn't it? Lots of extra work expected in your own time, self funding courses, poor pay etc. It's crap but not exclusive to teachers. The teachers at my DCs school do a great job except the headmistress

noblegiraffe Thu 25-Jul-13 21:33:46

Basing a pay rise on whether a teacher volunteers in their free time to staff after school activities would discriminate against part time teachers (like me!) who work erratic days on a two week timetable, and rarely in the afternoon. This would disproportionately hit female staff, who are more likely to be part time.

I'm paid to teach, my contract says nothing about voluntary activities (obviously) and therefore I should not be assessed on my providing, or otherwise, of them.

Bogeyface Thu 25-Jul-13 21:34:53

Its the first week of the holidays, parents everywhere hate ALL teachers right now grin

By September 1st you will be flavour of the month again.

Passmethecrisps Thu 25-Jul-13 21:35:13

I think it is the same as other professions. The problem is that everyone (pretty much) has been to school so everyone feels they have the expertise required to judge.

I see it with other professions too - GP bashing as one example.

ilovesooty Thu 25-Jul-13 21:36:01

At the end of the day it should be about excellent learning and teaching. It's measuring that which is the problem

Exactly Passmethecrisps The measuring is the problem because pupils are human beings, not machines, and performance management as proposed leaves too much scope for subjective judgement and abuse.I see nothing wrong with accountability but it's doing it fairly and consistently that's the real difficulty.

Belle15 Thu 25-Jul-13 21:36:15

I think in theory the new pay system seems to allow teachers to rewarded for excellence. In reality I think it will allow heads to abuse the pay system (which unfortunately many heads will do). Have seen money allocated for SEN children and their support spent on other things to improve the overall image of the school and this is not uncommon.
I completely agree this goes on in lots of professions but I just feel that we, as a profession lack public support on the whole more than most

spotscotch Thu 25-Jul-13 21:37:00

I don't actually think that teachers are any more Moany than any other profession, i just think they find themselves having to defend their job far more frequently than any other. I struggle to think of many other professions that are so slagged off and where the public perception of the job differs so wildly from the reality.

But then again, starting threads like this just perpetuates the myth that all we do is moan smile

Passmethecrisps Thu 25-Jul-13 21:37:32

Quite right bogey! Although I have taken schools pupils on expeditions lasting one month during the holidays only for one parent to congratulate me on 'blagging a free holiday'

It's the holidays. Have wine and put your feet up, OP.

"From experience I know heads will cut money where they can and if they can get you to do it for free they will. It also adds to the problem of heads promoting and paying their 'favourites' and means that if you are not 'in' with SMT you can wave goodbye to a decent wage"

That's not exclusive to teachers though... the same happens in nearly every organisation or business with weak management. The options are either to address it, accept it, or change jobs.

I don't bash teachers, my mum and several of my closest friends are teachers and I know how hard they work - but I also know that they have progressed in their careers and salaries faster than me, get far more holiday than I do, and are doing the job they trained specifically to do.

Belle15 Thu 25-Jul-13 21:38:24

Touché spotscotch!! wink

Passmethecrisps Thu 25-Jul-13 21:41:20

That's the thing mackerel and that is why I steer clear of all the "only 10 weeks until the next holiday grin " posts on Facebook. I keep my head down and be grateful.

I also don't claime to be in work for 99% of the holidays either. I lie around on my fat arse worrying about all the work I should be doing

Passmethecrisps Thu 25-Jul-13 21:42:27

Oh for heavens sake! Where did that 'e' come from on 'claim'? I swear my iPhone has a 'make you look like a fool' section.

noblegiraffe Thu 25-Jul-13 21:42:57

The poster upthread who says that teachers get loads of thanks in the form of cards and presents is clearly a primary teacher. Not much of that going on a secondary, although parents are very quick to complain.

Sometimes it feels like an endless battle against the kids, the parents, management, Ofsted and bloody Gove. (Other times it's great, but they seem to be fewer, lately).

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 21:46:39

AnnabelleLee Thu 25-Jul-13 21:19:

What do you teach? Please tell me its not grammar, "lol".

It's. Lol.

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 21:48:29
deepfriedsage Thu 25-Jul-13 21:48:37

I have zero respect for teachers now, they only have their behavior to blame. They don't like being proved wrong with their theories and couldn't give a dam aboutstudents, they throw kids under the bus to save their jobs when faced with an official complaint, trying to doctor an ed psych report with factually incorrect info and missing out relevant medical information.

Sadly my friend picked up some equipment on freecycle from a Kent HT, with witch hunt attempts on it making mountains out of mole hills etc on families, so I guess its a widespread practice in the profession.

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 21:49:53

I have zero respect for teachers now, they only have their behavior to blame.

I see. And that would be all of them, then, would it?

timidviper Thu 25-Jul-13 21:50:04

At least the public know who teachers are OP.
Mention the NHS and the public all pipe up about doctors and nurses yet there are loads of professions all working together in healthcare. Nobody ever thinks of pharmacists, physios, radiographers, podiatrists, dieticians, occupational therapists, etc

BoneyBackJefferson Thu 25-Jul-13 21:50:07

"I think this is fair because some teachers never seem to stop working. They're taking before school clubs, lunchtime clubs and after school clubs etc...yet the teachers who just do the basic amount, are moving up the pays scale alongside them."

That is so funny, it really is a shame that its not true.

noblegiraffe Thu 25-Jul-13 21:52:15

I've never thrown a kid under a bus confused

Passmethecrisps Thu 25-Jul-13 21:53:41

deep you have obviously had a terrible experience but it surely can't be indicative of the whole profession.

Of course it isn't boney. some teachers work endlessly. Others don't. Still, the ones who arrive on the bell and leave on the bell can still be wonderful teachers. That's what makes it hard to financially reward excellence.

PaulSmenis Thu 25-Jul-13 21:53:55

21K for a starting salary is more than a lot of post grads get. My first graphic design job as a junior earned me an impressive 13k. That included working late to hit deadlines and even some weekends.

I think teachers do an excellent job, but everyone else in all other professions have to put in the hours and sweat to earn the same sort of money. This isn't exclusive to teaching.

Granted, farting about on a computer might not be seen as being of ground shaking importance to anyone, but it matters a great deal to clients who want to present their businsses in the best light. So, we are all playing our important role in our own way and people always bitch about money and stress in their work.

Fwiw, I have teachers in my family and as friends and I know how hard they work, but they also get other benefits, pensions, excellent sick pay and a union. I think this is why people object to them moaning. Whilst 21K doesn't seem like much, the national average of 26 is skewed. A new teacher on 12k wil get a pay rise related to their perfomance. This shouldn't be an issue should it?

ilovesooty Thu 25-Jul-13 21:54:11

I have zero respect for teachers now, they only have their behavior to blame. They don't like being proved wrong with their theories and couldn't give a dam aboutstudents, they throw kids under the bus to save their jobs when faced with an official complaint, trying to doctor an ed psych report with factually incorrect info and missing out relevant medical information

Nothing like a sweeping generalisation.

Passmethecrisps Thu 25-Jul-13 21:55:25

Me neither noble. Me neither. Is that a CPD opportunity?

<joking. Obviously>

spotscotch Thu 25-Jul-13 21:55:36

grin at the image of disgruntled teachers chucking kids under buses all over the country!

BoneyBackJefferson Thu 25-Jul-13 21:55:40

noblegiraffe

But it must be true as its a made up stat made up of one persons opinion. grin

PaulSmenis Thu 25-Jul-13 21:56:04

I meant 21k

Talkinpeace Thu 25-Jul-13 21:57:30

Belle
the Average/mean salary is £26k
but the average/median salary is £18k
so teachers on 21k are on a salary more than 55% of teh population
just remember that

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 21:57:42

Would that be one kid per bus per bus teacher? But no, it was kids plural, wasn't it? Two kids each? confused

ilovesooty Thu 25-Jul-13 21:58:29

A friend of mine has finished university and is thrilled to have landed a job as a substance misuse recovery worker - on 14K.

Re the union - academies don't have to recognise unions so I think protection is being eroded.

BonaDea Thu 25-Jul-13 21:59:09

Most people just go to work and do their jobs. Many work very hard for not very much.

Not sure anyone else expects quite so much in the way of thanks, praise or recognition tho!!

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 21:59:58

Aw, I messed that up. Let me do it again - one kid per bus per teacher? Nah, still don't get it. confused

spotscotch Thu 25-Jul-13 22:00:41

It could be a good behaviour management system:
Warning
Yellow card
Red card
Out of the room
Sent to assistant head
Under the bus!

Belle15 Thu 25-Jul-13 22:00:45

But with all due respect that median salary doesn't take into account whether you are trained or educated on a profession. I would expect after 4 years worth of university education and debt that we should expect a
wage to reflect this.
Haha throwing kids under buses is definitely frowned upon in my school grin

deepfriedsage Thu 25-Jul-13 22:00:57

Yes, so funny ducking up others lives, couldn't care less, proved my point. Just a joke to teachers. It's been interesting for me and the children watch the control freak liars have near breakdowns when they are faced with their wrong doings, not funny then for them. It was ok to attempt to duck up our lives, different story when their life is under the spot light when they were sooooo very wrong and caused harm.

thebody Thu 25-Jul-13 22:02:58

zero respect for ALL teachers, !! don't be so daft.

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 22:04:27

To be fair, even the most dedicated teacher could still find 'ducking up others' lives' quite funny, and you really did ask for most of it with the ridiculous chucking kids under buses claim. I would give it up if I was you. grin

Belle15 Thu 25-Jul-13 22:04:45

This thread is getting heated!! :-s

spotscotch Thu 25-Jul-13 22:05:02

must.not.say.anything.about.ducks

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 22:05:33

Or maybe start a thread of your own?

Talkinpeace Thu 25-Jul-13 22:06:00

Bus drivers get really sick of being accused of mass murder you know.

I got a real ear bashing from one who pointed out that he had NEVER run over a computer network manager ....

deepfriedsage Thu 25-Jul-13 22:06:24

You prove my point, that is why teachers ate disliked, put down people and laugh at misfortune the damage they cause in students lives.

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 22:07:25

AIBU - ducks and buses?

ilovesooty Thu 25-Jul-13 22:07:33

I don't think the simple act of studying should lead to expectations of financial reward. Putting that studying to good use and demonstrating excellent performance should be rewarded. It's how that can be fairly assessed and evidenced is the problem.

GetStuffezd Thu 25-Jul-13 22:07:49

I would never duck up your life, Deepfriedsage.

ilovesooty Thu 25-Jul-13 22:09:03

ONE person's negative experience and agenda doesn't give adequate grounds for being critical of a whole profession.

spotscotch Thu 25-Jul-13 22:09:07

No one is laughing g at others misfortune deepfried

We are laughing at your ridiculous generalisations of an entire profession Based on what is obviously your own bad experience.

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 22:11:50

I had a plumber who ripped me off once - £120 just to bleed a radiator (I had dropped the key between some floorboards).

Ergo, every single one is a complete bastard, don't cha know. Oh yes.

PaulSmenis Thu 25-Jul-13 22:12:08

"I don't think the simple act of studying should lead to expectations of financial reward."

No, I don't either. There are no guarantees in life. People have always felt disenfranchised and the educational system is to blame. They should be more honest about this fact of life.

There is no entitlement to a certain salary as such. People need to wake up that the UK is in economic decline and people are lucky to have work in the first place.

SirChenjin Thu 25-Jul-13 22:13:25

£21K is around the starting salary for a nurse too Belle - and many graduates would bite your arm off for a chance of a job which has a pay scale, the same number of holidays, a strong union, good pension etc.

deepfriedsage Thu 25-Jul-13 22:13:32

Not just my bad experience. The bad experiences of people with our medical conditions, each person tells the same story.

Not just people with our medical conditions. That HT from Oxford in Kent who retired and her freecycle info given away with witch hunts on families at the school, Alison something I gather her name was.

Passmethecrisps Thu 25-Jul-13 22:14:02

Genuinely, deep it does sound as if you had a terrible experience. But surely common sense would tell you that not all teachers behave badly?

You can also surely see that people are simply responding to your generalisation. That is, after all, what this thread is about.

Tell us about what happened? Start a new thread asking for opinions?

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 22:14:04

People need to wake up that the UK is in economic decline

Indeed. I refer you to my earlier MP link.

Talkinpeace Thu 25-Jul-13 22:14:23

deepfried are you stoned?

sonlypuppyfat Thu 25-Jul-13 22:14:39

I think we all remember being at school and being the but of some teachers sarcastic comments. I went to my DD parents evening I spoke to her History teacher who when I went to shake his hand decided to then drink his coffee. What I'm saying is that am I supposed to respect these people give me a break when they work a full day for a full year I just might.

ilovesooty Thu 25-Jul-13 22:15:34

That still isn't indicative of a whole profession. That's what people are trying to get through to you.

ilovesooty Thu 25-Jul-13 22:16:52

Oh goodness. We've got another generaliser.

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 22:17:23

I went to my DD parents evening I spoke to her History teacher who when I went to shake his hand decided to then drink his coffee

Omg - hang him and therefore all teachers immediately. Ffs.

Amaxapax Thu 25-Jul-13 22:18:56

You know, I think threads like this are really unfortunate. Just before my school broke up for the holidays, we had a pretty disturbing union meeting. There are some plans that I found very upsetting, such as forcing teachers to renegotiate their pay each year, cutting holidays and lengthening school days with no intention of raising pay and taking away administrative assistants, meaning teachers have to take over those jobs. I think most of these plans would have a detrimental effect on the quality of classroom teaching. I don't think the current government is concerned with improving education; they are concerned with making a political point.
Having said that, I get very frustrated when teachers moan about workload, and I think it undermines the more significant issues. Lots of people have more work to do than they can feasibly fit into an eight-hour work day. As a teacher, I find my work ebbs and flows. I have my busy times and my easier times, just like anyone else, so I roll with it, just like anyone else. I don't deserve more sympathy than anyone else in another job.
The reason this is important is that, in the next few months, teachers in all unions will be asked to go on strike. I don't like the idea of going on strike, but my regional union rep rightly pointed out that, if we don't stand up and make our feelings of opposition clear, we are tacitly conceding that Gove's plans are good for education and good for the profession. They really are not. But we are going to have to work hard to sway public opinion that we are not just moaning about insignificant things, but instead taking a stand agains decisions that do not respect teachers' professionalism or value children and their educational experience. So, please don't complain about your workload. Work within your school to find a way to manage your workload. Then, take a look at what Gove wants to do and start using social networking, leafleting, and plain old conversations to help let parents know that you want to protect the quality of their children's education, not just your own benefits.
Sorry this is so long. I have lots of feelings.

Passmethecrisps Thu 25-Jul-13 22:19:43

I think, on the whole, we are well renumerated.

I do think that the discussions about teaching get a bit stalled around money.

I have a job I love (take that flamers!) which I get paid well for. I do, however, work in a grim building which oozes lack of care from the council, have outmoded technology and suffer from a lack of trust from the general public

deepfriedsage Thu 25-Jul-13 22:19:44

If I was a parent at that school in Kent I would be very concerned about information they may never know was written about them, was not deleted and was given away on freecycle and it happened to land in the hands of a parent who had a school witch hunt on them, not me, they wanted to know what to do with the info.

Belle15 Thu 25-Jul-13 22:19:52

I agree! But the point is, the payscale is being withdrawn! Our pensions contributions are increasing and we will be expected to teach until we are almost 70 to then claim less at the end! I hope my daughter never has to be taught by a 65year old teacher- what good can come of that?
Me and my partner are both teachers and under the proposed changes we will be paying almost £500 a month between us into our pensions and then have less to claim at the end!
Anyway done with moaning now- I agree in comparison to some we are much better off. I don't think it's fair to say we can't moan because others are worse off as in that case who could ever complain about anything?
My point was that we are, as a profession regularly slated and I feel we are slated unfairly.
The poster discussing how we all 'throw kids under the bus' is a perfect example of the type of people I am talking about

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 22:20:16

Are you secondary, Amaxapax?

sonlypuppyfat Thu 25-Jul-13 22:21:37

Feenie all his kids know him as a complete tosser too my friends DD is deaf in one ear and refused to seat her where she could her him, he is a controlling prick like they all are no wonder the kids are all failing and falling behind other countries

Passmethecrisps Thu 25-Jul-13 22:22:25

I agree ama. There aren't actually any teachers on here complaining. We seem a happy bunch actually.

That does sound poor sonly but is either likely to be the behaviour of an arsehole rather than a teacher or a genuine mistake.

Passmethecrisps Thu 25-Jul-13 22:23:15

He is one prick sonly. One. Please don't judge us all by one poor example.

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 22:23:28

Feenie all his kids know him as a complete tosser too my friends DD is deaf in one ear and refused to seat her where she could her him, he is a controlling prick like they all are no wonder the kids are all failing and falling behind other countries

No wonder confused confused confused

Passmethecrisps Thu 25-Jul-13 22:24:40

deep yours sounds like a wildly extreme situation which surely can't be used to generalise against a whole profession?

Viviennemary Thu 25-Jul-13 22:26:06

For very little financial gain. In which case time to resign and take a voluntary job. Honestly!!

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 22:26:09

Like they all are

Are you 12 years old? Because that's pretty much the only excuse I would accept for that piece of fucking ludicrous logic.

Amaxapax Thu 25-Jul-13 22:26:15

I am, Feenie. I appreciate that means that I benefits like gained time, which a primary teacher wouldn't have. I have the utmost respect for primary teachers: I would not have the patience or stamina to effectively manage so many little ones and the amount of differentiation and emotional support that goes along with such a role.

ilovesooty Thu 25-Jul-13 22:28:35

he is a conrolling prick like they all are

Give it a rest.

Ama I agree.

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 22:30:14

FWIW, I completely agree with your sentiment, Amaxapax. It was this bit that gave you away:

As a teacher, I find my work ebbs and flows. I have my busy times and my easier times, just like anyone else, so I roll with it, just like anyone else.

That bit isn't the case in primary any more - it's all 100% full on.

SirChenjin Thu 25-Jul-13 22:31:03

You can't judge all teachers by one bad one Sonly, that's not fair.

sonlypuppyfat Thu 25-Jul-13 22:32:19

No I am not 12 years old just someone who has been to school and has 3 DCs and been very unimpressed by teachers who think they are so very special they don't have to work the same as everyone else. Oh you have to work til your older well so does everyone else.

ravenAK Thu 25-Jul-13 22:33:22

Oh dear.

There's no point in teachers moaning about everyone hating teachers at the start of the summer holidays.

All the non-teacher parents are worrying about what to do with their little angels & resenting us for being on our jollies.

Much, much better just to catch up on some well deserved r&r for a week or two, before we have to start prepping for September. Reading some uninformed generalising random on t'internet calling us uncalled-for names isn't going to help with that.

(I really do not know why I even clicked on this thread, tbh...doh)

Passmethecrisps Thu 25-Jul-13 22:35:36

I ignored it for a while as well raven grin

wine for everyone?

Primary teachers should share their choccies too!

Englishroses Thu 25-Jul-13 22:36:29

I personally feel teachers do very well financially. They seem to be the only group of professions who feel the need to confirm just how hard they work.

ilovesooty Thu 25-Jul-13 22:36:33

just someone who has been to school

Okaaaayyyy...you know all about teaching then. hmm

has 3 DCs - <wonders what their behaviour is like, given your views>

teachers who think they are so very special they don't have to work the same as everyone else

FFS.

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 22:36:59

True, dat wine

ilovesooty Thu 25-Jul-13 22:38:02

They seem to be the only group of professions who feel the need to confirm just how hard they work

Because of the public's attitude to them?

BoneyBackJefferson Thu 25-Jul-13 22:39:11

Englishroses
"They seem to be the only group of professions who feel the need to confirm just how hard they work."

With posts like
"teachers who think they are so very special they don't have to work the same as everyone else"

Its no wonder that we do

Belle15 Thu 25-Jul-13 22:39:42

Hence this thread.
I agree though- bad timing!

Wine all round!! grin

Englishroses Thu 25-Jul-13 22:40:47

No the public don't have a negative attitude. Teachers seem to be so sensitive! The majority of other professionals work long hours but don't go on and on...

MrButtercat Thu 25-Jul-13 22:41:28

I'm rapidly losing patience with teachers.

Other sectors have had pay cuts,pay freezes,performance related pay,stress,yada,yada for years.It's life.

There are fab teachers,middling and bad( the same as every sector).

Performance related pay is long over due and you get a very decent wage alongside rather nice holidays.

Everybody else has to get on with it soooooo........

Passmethecrisps Thu 25-Jul-13 22:41:31

<sloshes wine around with gay abandon>

ravenAK Thu 25-Jul-13 22:41:37

Cheers!

After all, it's not like we have to get up & go to work in the morning. grin

sonlypuppyfat Thu 25-Jul-13 22:42:14

You see your all so fab no one can ever pull you up on your job. You don't start work til your in your twentys and expect to finish before you are 60, but I forget you have been to uni and are the chosen ones. Oh and my DCs have been told numerous times they are a pleasure to be around but I forgot that teachers always like to be sarcastic.

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 22:42:35

But the majority of professions don't have any number of threads saying they don't. Apart from nurses, lately, I notice.

Englishroses Thu 25-Jul-13 22:42:45

I acknowledge that the majority of teachers are REALLY hardworking. But so are most other professionals. .

wherearemysocka Thu 25-Jul-13 22:42:52

just someone who has been to school - so an expert on education, then? I went to the ballet the other week, doesn't make me a ballerina.

Teachers just have a disadvantage in that everyone knows what we do and anyone who has children deals with us on a regular basis. My partner does a job that requires half a page to describe, no-one criticises him as they don't really understand what he does. I think we get paid pretty well (for the moment) and the holidays are fab.

I know some people like to have a go but on the whole I feel respected and valued by the people I actually deal with. The children and parents I work with seem happy and sent some lovely cards at the end of the year and to be honest I couldn't give a fuck what the Daily Mail thinks.

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 22:43:41

sonly -

Your = possessive

You need you're = contraction.

Hth.

Englishroses Thu 25-Jul-13 22:44:13

They are too busy working and not lounging about on holiday! Over and out!

ilovesooty Thu 25-Jul-13 22:44:46

Other sectors have had pay cuts,pay freezes,performance related pay,stress,yada,yada for years.It's life

Agreed: my job is an example. I still think there are very negative perceptions of teachers out there though: I disagree with Englishroses

Passmethecrisps Thu 25-Jul-13 22:45:25

<keeps pouring wine>

every profession has good and bad

every profession has its whiners and martyrs

It's been the end of a looooong term for teacher and parents and, let's not forget, the children

<passes round platter of naice ham sandwiches>

BoneyBackJefferson Thu 25-Jul-13 22:45:49

Englishroses
"Teachers seem to be so sensitive!"

If teachers where that sensitive we wouldn't be in the job.

MrButtercat
"Performance related pay is long over due"
and by what standard do you gauge PRP?

"and you get a very decent wage alongside rather nice holidays."

Yes we do get a nice wage and Unpaid Holidays

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 22:45:54

Lounging? What else do you suggest I do with my unpaid holiday, Englishroses?

Shame, you sounded halfway reasonable for a couple of posts.

ilovesooty Thu 25-Jul-13 22:46:10

You see your all so fab no one can ever pull you up on your job. You don't start work til your in your twentys and expect to finish before you are 60, but I forget you have been to uni and are the chosen ones. Oh and my DCs have been told numerous times they are a pleasure to be around but I forgot that teachers always like to be sarcastic

Grow up.

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 22:46:32

Christ, they are all out tonight. Is it a full moon? confused

Amaxapax Thu 25-Jul-13 22:47:05

Well, Englishroses, in fairness, no one ever complains that, say, project engineers don't work hard enough, even though my husband seems to occasionally spend a few hours out of his day perusing the Internet.
We're in a public facing role so that means it's likely that the public will comment and teachers will feel it necessary to correct misconceptions.

Feenie, I figured that was my giveaway. In fairness, I actually found that this year's gained time was filled with a lot more to do than previous years', including three observations in the space of two weeks and an HMI visit. However, as an English teacher, my marking becomes substantially more manageable when my exam groups leave, so that's a luxury for me.

sonlypuppyfat Thu 25-Jul-13 22:47:25

Feenie is my grammer not up to much.....Crap teachers!

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 22:48:43

My FE English teaching DH too, Amaxapax grin

ilovesooty Thu 25-Jul-13 22:48:50

my DCs have been told numerous times they are a pleasure to be around

Glad to hear they haven't taken your views into the classroom.

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 22:49:06

Grammar, dear wine

BoneyBackJefferson Thu 25-Jul-13 22:49:28

sonly

That you can read at all is thanks to a teacher.

Wbdn28 Thu 25-Jul-13 22:50:21

YANBU. So much of what teachers do is in their own time, behind the scenes.

Viviennemary Thu 25-Jul-13 22:51:29

I think most teachers do work hard. But they must win the prize for being the biggest set of whiners on the planet.

sonlypuppyfat Thu 25-Jul-13 22:51:35

How am I supposed to judge all you hard working teachers if the ones I have met have been awful?

XBenedict Thu 25-Jul-13 22:52:44

Aw Vivienne I thought us nurses won the prize for that! grin

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 22:53:07

How am I supposed to judge all you hard working teachers if the ones I have met have been awful

Exactly - penny drops at last?

sonlypuppyfat Thu 25-Jul-13 22:54:34

How can the penny drop if I think you are not up to it?

wherearemysocka Thu 25-Jul-13 22:54:34

In my experience on Mumsnet, teachers normally get accused of whinging and not living in the real world when they quite reasonably respond to someone slagging them off and calling them lazy and incompetent.

Look at this thread - do you blame us for not defending ourselves against some of the ridiculous comments that have been made?

ravenAK Thu 25-Jul-13 22:55:14

'How am I supposed to judge all you hard working teachers if the ones I have met have been awful?'

The same way anyone would, surely. I hate going to the dentist, but if I meet a dentist in the pub I don't immediately assume he's a right bastard & knee him in the nuts.

wherearemysocka Thu 25-Jul-13 22:55:32

defending ourselves, even.

Englishroses Thu 25-Jul-13 22:56:04

Look you do a great job. But if the grass is greener, then re train and do something better. My last post was intended to provoke a reaction ;)

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 22:56:08

What - me personally, sonly?

How could you possibly know that?

Come on now, have a think.

Passmethecrisps Thu 25-Jul-13 22:56:26

<eats sandwich platter alone>

<eyes up wine>

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 22:56:52

But if the grass is greener

Indeed, englishroses.

Maybe you could retrain?

ravenAK Thu 25-Jul-13 22:57:22

<grabs wine back>

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 22:57:52

but if I meet a dentist in the pub I don't immediately assume he's a right bastard & knee him in the nuts.

Brilliant grin

ilovesooty Thu 25-Jul-13 22:58:44

I hate going to the dentist, but if I meet a dentist in the pub I don't immediately assume he's a right bastard & knee him in the nuts

grin

I had a right bastard of a driving examiner (more than once), but I don't think the whole lot of them are like the awful ones I met.

sonlypuppyfat Thu 25-Jul-13 22:58:52

Defensive much?

deeplybaffled Thu 25-Jul-13 22:59:54

Whilst I agree that people often are happy to voice opinions about what teachers do, whilst knowing little about the reality - and some hate you - try being a lawyer!
As far as I can tell, everyone has an opinion, virtually none are positive and FWIW, the govt hate us all too...
Not saying that there aren't upsides to the job at all, but just that public esteem definitely is not one of them!

wherearemysocka Thu 25-Jul-13 22:59:55

I like teaching and am under no illusions that there are many perks to it. I just dislike being accused of being lazy and incompetent when I am neither.

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 23:00:15

Ooh, no, sonly, I'm having a lovely evening wine

Englishroses Thu 25-Jul-13 23:01:00

I nearly became a teacher but decided it wasn't for me. I am very happy with my job, I work very hard for little thanks and I also do lots if work in my own time. It's the nature of my job and I am just fine with that. I did my research first and knew what I was letting myself in for!

Interestingly I seem to have quite a few teacher friends. The ones who have had different career paths and then retrained as teachers feel they have things pretty good.

ravenAK Thu 25-Jul-13 23:01:04

That's how it works, sonly, yes.

You attack. The people you're attacking defend themselves.

On the whole, in this instance, politely & with good humour.

Have a crisp...

ilovesooty Thu 25-Jul-13 23:01:10

But if the grass is greener, then re train and do something better

I did. I still think teachers have an undeservedly bad press. I also agree that they are sometimes misguided in terms of their perceptions of others.

ilovesooty Thu 25-Jul-13 23:02:11

Defensive much?

Takes one to know one...

BoneyBackJefferson Thu 25-Jul-13 23:02:53

Englishroses

"But if the grass is greener, then re train and do something better."

Why should I? I love my job, strangely it is those that don't do it and know very little about it that seem to hate those of us in it.

Viviennemary Thu 25-Jul-13 23:03:45

X-Benedict that's because I know quite a lot of teachers but not many nurses. And only one nurse quite well. And come to think of it she is a bit of a moaner. grin

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 23:04:29

Interestingly I seem to have quite a few teacher friends. The ones who have had different career paths and then retrained as teachers feel they have things pretty good

Who on here has said any different? confused I love my job. I just get arsey when posters tell me what a workshy bastard I must be, because someone drank their coffee at an inopportune moment one a fricking lifetime ago. And the subsequent posters who for Christ knows what reason pile in.

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 23:04:47

once

Passmethecrisps Thu 25-Jul-13 23:05:15

<jealousy grabs crisps to bosom>

bunchoffives Thu 25-Jul-13 23:05:16

Teachers do need to make sure they stand together in their unions to protect their pay and conditions.

I'm NOT a teacher, but I want my children to be taught by highly educated, capable professionals, and it is surely in all parents' interests to support attracting such people to teaching. We all should stand with teachers to make sure that profession is an attractive one to join.

I don't think teachers are especially criticised any more than any other one (think of bankers, solicitors, civil servants etc). I do think that when I have personally come across teachers who are obviously not good at their jobs, the head and governors responsible for that poor teacher's continuing employment have been very weak and reluctant to take the necessary action to dismiss them. That inaction reflects badly on the profession as a whole.

EvilTwins Thu 25-Jul-13 23:05:57

I love my job. The kids make me smile on a daily basis, I'm currently enjoying a lovely holiday and the money is fine.

I'm bloody good at what I do.

I resent being told by people who know fuck all about me that my job is easy and/or that I am lazy.

I make the job look easy wink but that's different.

<returns to poolside with wine>>

sonlypuppyfat Thu 25-Jul-13 23:06:53

Why do people dislike teachers? I know its not just me.

Passmethecrisps Thu 25-Jul-13 23:06:54

<wonders if I am adding to debate>

<no longer sure I care>

<passes end of term vol au vent to all and sundry>

Amaxapax Thu 25-Jul-13 23:07:26

I find this whole conversation so strange. Of course teachers are going to try to protect their pay and conditions. It would be absolutely foolish of us not to. I can't say much about the pensions issue because I don't really understand it. However, I can say with some certainly that if teachers are expected to have contact with pupils until five o'clock each evening, if preparation time is taken away and if they're expected to undertake administrative duties, the quality of classroom teaching will go down. It's common sense: all of those activities take away from the time I currently allocate to planning and marking. If you're a parent, that's where your concern should be.

I like my job. I adore so many of my pupils. The teaching bit is absolutely the best bit! But I can't do that well if all the other bits encroach on the teaching bit. I want to be a good teacher, so obviously I'm going to try to prevent the destruction of my primary role, which is educator.

ilovesooty Thu 25-Jul-13 23:07:35

And the other side of the coin is that there are now large numbers of teachers being forced out for being too old and too expensive. Both sides of the picture are valid, IMO.

XBenedict Thu 25-Jul-13 23:07:36

Thank goodness for that Vivienne - she is not letting the side down grin

GetStuffezd Thu 25-Jul-13 23:08:49

Why do people dislike uninteresting, ill-informed shit-stirrers? I know it's not just me.

ravenAK Thu 25-Jul-13 23:09:57

What BoneyBack said.

I love teaching. Would prefer not to have spent the last three years getting slagged off for doing it, mind you.

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 23:10:04

Why do people dislike teachers? I know its not just me.

Who knows why someone would take it upon themselves to dislike an entire profession? Can't think of many reasons, tbh, so not very helpful, I know. Extreme stupidity? Massive prejudice? Enormous fuckwittery?

Am running out of reasons, but none of them are good, tbh.

Amaxapax Thu 25-Jul-13 23:11:53

Here here, bunchoffives. I agree with literally every single thing you wrote, including the bits about the bad teachers. Trust me, as someone who is (forgive my lack of modesty) a pretty good teacher, it's infuriating seeing those who aren't very good continuing year after year to be ineffective and poorly managed.

sonlypuppyfat Thu 25-Jul-13 23:12:24

Its really easy to understand. The teachers I have met are not very good now don't tell me that was too difficult.

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 23:13:58

Any plumber I have met so far was a wanker - I don't automatically think that it's a prerequisite for the entire industry because I am not a fucking idiot.

ilovesooty Thu 25-Jul-13 23:14:06

Well, they evidently didn't succeed in teaching you the basics of balanced discussion and sensible debate. grin

ravenAK Thu 25-Jul-13 23:14:24

<sigh>

OK, I'll bite.

Is this the ones that taught you, or the ones that teach your dc?

What was/is so crap about them?

ilovesooty Thu 25-Jul-13 23:16:22

raven apparently they are sarcastic, think they're special and drink coffee at inappropriate moments.

EvilTwins Thu 25-Jul-13 23:17:17

sonly have you met every teacher in the country?

No?

Do you think that might be why people think you're spouting shit?

It's a teensy bit prejudiced, isn't it?

ravenAK Thu 25-Jul-13 23:18:32

Oh well - guilty as charged then. I'd best spend the next 5 weeks weaning myself off coffee & sarcasm.

& then I'll have to take up crack or something to get me through September.

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 23:19:20

grin

sonlypuppyfat Thu 25-Jul-13 23:20:02

Well done sooty you get it , cos we all have a load of respect for sarcasm don't we as that is all I've had tonight do you all take a course in sarcasm is it part of your course. We all know how children thrive when you humiliate them.

wherearemysocka Thu 25-Jul-13 23:20:19

Agreed, amaxapax . I also believe that the teaching unions should do much more to get parents on side by emphasising the detrimental effect Gove's policies will have on their children. I don't think they win any sympathy when talking solely about teachers' terms and conditions.

Incidentally, the woman behind the counter in the post office was a bit sullen with me this morning. I think everyone who works for Royal Mail is a miserable git and should be sacked forthwith.

ravenAK Thu 25-Jul-13 23:21:03

But you aren't a child, & I don't see why you'd feel humiliated.

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 23:21:29

Yes, sonly - we learn sarcasm, inappropriate coffee drinking skills and bus chucking. Essential.

Amaxapax Thu 25-Jul-13 23:23:03

Oh, sonly, I so wish you were just a shit-stirrer. Unfortunately, I have met parents like you, who think all teachers are simply vindictive control freaks. I'm sorry for whatever experience you've had that has put you off teachers as a whole, but there are a lot of good teachers out there who genuinely do want the best for your children. I've scheduled my holiday specifically so I can be back for results day because I know how hard my Y11s worked and I want to be there to celebrate their success with them and offer support where necessary. Do you really think those are the actions of a terrible person?

EvilTwins Thu 25-Jul-13 23:24:52

I was already sarcastic - picked it up as a teen (shock just realised - DF as a teacher - must have got it from him) Obviously that's one of the reasons I was accepted for my PGCE.

I'm also pretty intelligent, and have the ability to understand when sarcasm is appropriate and when it is not. Humiliating students is not in my repertoire. Chucking kids under buses, mind you...

Caster8 Thu 25-Jul-13 23:26:29

I think that if the op left out the financial bit, she has valid points.

sonlypuppyfat Thu 25-Jul-13 23:30:20

I have not met every teacher have I, but I can judge the teachers I have met.

AnneElliott Thu 25-Jul-13 23:34:23

I don 't think teachers get criticised more than other professions. I'm a civil servant and we get loads of bad press.
What I find hard with teachers that I know is their reluctance to admit that there are some crap teachers. I'm more than willing to admit there are crap civil servants as I have met them. Why do some teachers find this so hard? Admitting there are crisp people in your profession doesn't reflect on you- I don't think so anyway.

scottishmummy Thu 25-Jul-13 23:34:46

You're not in penury as a teacher,favourable t&c,no shift work,no public holidays
All thing considered its not the worst job in public sector
Nor are you the only workers who are maligned.

EvilTwins Thu 25-Jul-13 23:35:04

Yes you can, but that's not what you've been doing on this thread.

I am glad you have realised that you can only judge the teachers you have met.

LongGoneBeforeDaylight Thu 25-Jul-13 23:37:00

I think teachers get slagged off a lot because they have two or three times the amount of holiday of almost every other profession and they seem to moan more about how hard they work. it's a double whammy. I didn't have a single day's annual leave in 7 months recently, work between 10 and 12 hour days (lawyer) and I am not a) expecting 6 weeks off, then 6 weeks on, then 1 week off, etc, and b) CERTAINLY not behaving as if I deserve all this time off because of how hard I have worked. No amount of work in term time to me can justify the holidays. I wish teachers would just say 'yes I work hard in term time but I get great holidays' rather than 'oh thank god it's the summer I can't wait for time off I have worked sooo hard' as it makes people who work EQUALLY hard all year a bit hmm.

LongGoneBeforeDaylight Thu 25-Jul-13 23:38:09

Also, I started on £25k as a trainee solicitor and needed 2.1 from redbrick or oxbridge. I think teaching is pretty well remunerated - although you need a degree it does not need to be AA*A*A AAA 2.1/1st etc.

EvilTwins Thu 25-Jul-13 23:38:35

Anne - there are rubbish teachers at my school and it makes me angry. We are a small staff and a few poor teachers brings us down badly. Unfortunately when poor teachers are off sick, the HT has very little power to do anything about it. In the meantime, those of us left behind have to cover their lessons and pick up the pieces with the students. That tends not to happen in the majority of other jobs.

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 23:39:25

I deserve all this time off because I am not paid for it.

That makes me pretty deserving of it, in my book.

Sorry if that offends you. Again - perhaps you could just retrain?

I hate going to the dentist, but if I meet a dentist in the pub I don't immediately assume he's a right bastard & knee him in the nuts

grin

As a teacher I don't think we work harder than anyone else, just we get slagged off more than anyone else, because everyone went to school so they think they know what being a teacher entails. Nurses possibly being a close call to also being given a tough ride.

scottishmummy Thu 25-Jul-13 23:40:27

Not,so someone doesnt turn in for an nhs shift they are short,the remaining staff pick up work

MrButtercat Thu 25-Jul-13 23:41:19

Yes in other professions if you're crap you're out pronto.

sonlypuppyfat Thu 25-Jul-13 23:41:24

Yes the whole country could retrain as teachers that would work.

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 23:41:41

Not,so someone doesnt turn in for an nhs shift they are short,the remaining staff pick up work

What do you think happens in education?

scottishmummy Thu 25-Jul-13 23:42:38

Keep up,I'm responding to the teacher who thinks they're only professions left short if someone off

MrButtercat Thu 25-Jul-13 23:42:59

Oh and in other sectors they cut staff and other workers take the slack.

LongGoneBeforeDaylight Thu 25-Jul-13 23:43:05

raises hand I would like to nominate lawyers for being slagged off a lot too. I don't think I have ever met a stranger and told them what I do without them either insinuating I am stinking rich at the expense of poor people or had a go at me about rape conviction rates/planning permission laws/etc etc

XBenedict Thu 25-Jul-13 23:43:36

In fairness I think when someone goes off sick in other professions those left behind pick up the pieces. I can only refer to nursing but when I worked on the wards if someone was off sick you just got on with it and in extreme situations worked a double shift to cover. As a practice nurse if a colleague goes off sick you run a double clinic or 3 clinics between 2 of you, the patients keep on coming.

EvilTwins Thu 25-Jul-13 23:43:46

But if a nurse had been signed off for a month, cover would be found and there wouldn't be a flurry of complaints from parents about the lack of continuity. I'm not playing who-has-it-hardest but if you are the parent of a DC at my school, in Yr 11, say, who has had a string of Science teachers this year, or a Yr 9 who has had 4 different Heads of Year because of long-term sickness, you'd justifiably be quite pissed off.

wherearemysocka Thu 25-Jul-13 23:44:47

I'm not sure, MrButtercat my friends in the private sector seem to moan a fair bit about incompetent and useless colleagues! It's hard to sack a crap teacher but in my experience most people jump before they are pushed - it's a miserable job if it's not for you.

EvilTwins Thu 25-Jul-13 23:45:11

Oh, OK, I take the point. Yes, hard for staff who have to cover.

XBenedict Thu 25-Jul-13 23:45:17

You see you'd think so but time and time again cover is not found.

scottishmummy Thu 25-Jul-13 23:45:44

As a professions teachers are habitually on mn bemoaning their lot,their t&c
You know what it's hard going on numerous others who don't habitually bemoan their lot
No shift work,no weekend work,no public holiday working it's not the worst public sector job

VikingVagine Thu 25-Jul-13 23:46:10

<dances in wearing just undies>

<does a cartwheel>

<wiggles bum in direction of teacher bashers>

<sprawls out on sun lounger>

Who has the wine and nibbles?

ravenAK Thu 25-Jul-13 23:46:19

I went to a crap teacher's leaving do last week, actually.

Lovely woman. Good teacher in her day - lost it rather in recent years. Resigned once capability process kicked in.

I feel awfully sorry for her (she's a mate) but she wasn't able to get it together, she was hoofed out. Just as happens in other professions.

XBenedict Thu 25-Jul-13 23:46:55

sad

EvilTwins Thu 25-Jul-13 23:48:20

wherearemysocks I have found s year that those who are about to be sacked tend to go off sick. I have had colleagues off for almost all of this year. It has been increasingly frustrating. We're a small secondary and at one point this year 1/4 of teaching staff were off (for weeks, not just days) The HT can do nothing in that situation. AFAIK, only 2 have resigned, so the situation will perpetuate next year.

Of course there are shit teachers, and I don't think people disagree with the concept of performance related pay, but how this is implemented in teaching is the issue. The choices are basically on exam results (which is shit if exam boards change goal posts willy nilly, or if you share a class with a shit teacher for example), on lesson observations (where again the goal posts change regularly, and grades are entirely subjective based on the observer in many cases, and really someone watching two lessons agreed in advance out if the hundreds taught each week isn't exactly good sampling). If I knew that my pay would be decided fairly based on my work I'd be very happy with that.

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 23:49:11

Me too.

ravenAK Thu 25-Jul-13 23:50:17

Yes, agreed.

I'm so slow at typing my posts are looking a bit random. I'll
Just have some if that wine instead I think. Make a change from drinking brew at inappropriate times...

scottishmummy Thu 25-Jul-13 23:52:14

By all means Pretend to offer a buffet,shake your booty,even talk like a 15yo about bashers
Just it doesn't really add anything
But hey,as you are

Feenie Thu 25-Jul-13 23:54:23

Touche, scottishmummy.

cornyblend37 Thu 25-Jul-13 23:54:36

how would performance related pay take into account the cohort?

Would teachers in 11 plus areas teaching classes which include a significant amount of heavily tutored children be judged by the same standards as teachers in deprived areas?

MrButtercat Thu 25-Jul-13 23:55:06

Ha ha Mrs Hercule but that is the lot of most sectors.Dp works in IT,performance related,goal posts and deadlines continuously changed(not easy when managers who can't even code set unrealistic deadlines in the first place), office full of mediocre contractors paid £££££££ that make doing the job 10x harder.....

sonlypuppyfat Thu 25-Jul-13 23:55:12

The coffee drinking tosspot didn't even thank the pupil who gave it too him so I shall add that to his crimes. And I shall leave you to your whine sorry wine.

wherearemysocka Thu 25-Jul-13 23:55:19

I can imagine, eviltwins . That sounds crap, the impact on you and the students must have been horrendous. As I said, my point was only in my own experience. Guess we have been lucky.

MrButtercat Thu 25-Jul-13 23:57:51

Corny other sectors can't pick and choose the raw material they're given when performance related pay is involved.You get what you get or leave.

Amaxapax Thu 25-Jul-13 23:58:28

But MrButtercat, why does what happens in your DP's office justify the same thing happening in schools, or in any other office for that matter?

mrbuttercat so therefore if he was in a position to fight against that shit way and unfair way of doing things he would too. The fact it is unfair for everyone else doesn't make it right it should be shit for us teachers. I would support other professions making a stand in the same circumstances - for us we have a no chance of changing it at the moment, or at least having a say in how it might work. It sounds rubbish for your DP btw, it probably needs I be better thought out in many places.

MrButtercat Fri 26-Jul-13 00:00:56

Because it is life in every single office/ sector everywhere,my sister works for a major charity(very similar issues). It's called real life.

cornyblend37 Fri 26-Jul-13 00:01:25

But Mrbuttercat the 'rawmaterial' here are children.
The result could be that teachers will be less likely to want to work in difficult areas.

corny each school as I understand it gets to set their own pay progression policy. The unions have drafted a suggested version and some schools have written one and consulted on it, others just ate implementing them with no consultation. So not even going to be fair across the sector I should think.

wherearemysocka Fri 26-Jul-13 00:02:08

Didn't you say that the private sector would kick out anyone who was not up to the job, mrbuttercat ? Sounds like half your dp's office should be out on their ear...

mrbuttercat really? My DH place of work does it really well, but they invest a lot if time and money into it (he is not a teacher). Just because it is shit for your DP doesn't mean it should be shit for everyone.

MrButtercat Fri 26-Jul-13 00:04:23

No they wouldn't fight as they'd be out of a job and he just gets on with it.Companies need to make a profit.No profit,no job- for anybody.Difference is with public sector jobs they're used to the tax payer just bank rolling whatever.

ArtemisatBrauron Fri 26-Jul-13 00:04:52

I am a teacher at a senior school (13-18) and I think I have a really great job. It can be full on in term time but the holidays are great and the pay is fine.
I care a lot about my pupils and I am shocked to see the negativity of people like sonly who seem to be determined to see the worst in everyone.
I'd like to stealth boast about all my lovely thank you cards from pupils <displays cards proudly> which show that at least the kids don't hate me! grin

wherearemysocka Fri 26-Jul-13 00:06:42

'It's what it's like in the real world', ' Taxpayers pay your salary'

Come on mrbuttercat, just accuse me of leaving at 3.15pm everyday and I can call bingo and go to bed.

VikingVagine Fri 26-Jul-13 00:07:15

Couldn't give a fuck scottishmummy, I've been relaxing by the pool since the fifth of July.

<munches on crisps>

I wouldn't be a teacher in the UK if you doubled my salary, takes the piss some of things they're expected to do.

ravenAK Fri 26-Jul-13 00:07:19

It's based on predicted grades corny. Eg. I have lower/middle ability group of 23 in a good/outstanding school - target (based on KS2 levels, similar kids right across the country & our previous performance as a school) is mostly Cs with the odd D.

Hopefully, I will get a few Bs to make up for <example> the two C-targets who really can't be arsed doing any work, & the one who gets pregnant, & the one whose drug-dealing empire keeps him too busy.

Everyone's grades get fed into the computer, converted into a numerical score & compared against the target.

This gives a figure called a residual for each teaching group. If it's >0 all is well - if it isn't I have some explaining to do.

In the real world, top sets generally have positive residuals (nice hardworking kids with previous good performance) as do bottom sets (small group, lots of support) whereas middle sets are bloody hard work.

I will be extremely lucky to get a positive residual next month. I'm already on UPS3, based on years of good results, so no big deal. If I were eligible for progression I probably wouldn't get it.

& if I had a similar group next year - I could find myself on capability.

MrButtercat Fri 26-Jul-13 00:07:22

Wheres they're contractors so sought after and they do get rid( dp did with one last week) but they get replaced with similar.Companies prefer them as cheaper for them in the short term(although short sighted long term)

cornyblend37 Fri 26-Jul-13 00:07:51

'Difference is with public sector jobs they're used to the tax payer just bank rolling whatever'

public sector workers also pay tax...hmm

Whitenosugarplease Fri 26-Jul-13 00:09:25

Longgone- I was at a funding seminar before half term where the deputy head of a good state school said her school this year only took 2.1s or 1st from Russell Group universities. Schools can be picky and there are plenty of unemployed teachers

cornyblend37 Fri 26-Jul-13 00:10:29

that's really worrying raven

'Bank rolling whatever' that'll be paying all public sector workers salaries then so that your children get a free education and free healthcare then for example..You do realise we all pay taxes too?!?

Ilovegeorgeclooney Fri 26-Jul-13 00:21:28

Thank you all for an entertaining session! Just off to bed. Must remember to turn off my phone so all the Civil Servants/Lawyers/IT bods/doctors/nurses I normally commute with cannot continue with their bastard rota of ringing me during their journey to work from 6.30 am onwards!

Never complain about being a teacher in July/August!

Caff2 Fri 26-Jul-13 00:30:17

So, I had to go to hospital recently. I was suffering from terrible and unexplained sickness and abdominal pain that had me doubled up crying. Vomiting over and over . I had to have sone ultrasound scans as they were worried it was acute appendicitis. One nurse told me to "grow up" and "I haven't got time for this". All other medical staff were fabulous. I do not hate the nursing profession for one woman that was hateful. But one teacher hateful seems to have coloured the whole profession for some posters. Go figure.

ChimeForChange Fri 26-Jul-13 00:31:40

I'm doing supply teaching. No paperwork at home, even better wink

But obviously no pension, 12-month salary etc....

ravenAK Fri 26-Jul-13 01:10:51

Well, you do get the same salary actually.

Supply are paid at annual salary/195 for each day worked.

A teacher on contract, on the same payscale point, is paid for 195 days in the year, but in 12 calendar monthly chunks.

We all get the same for each day worked; it's just that if you're teaching on a supply basis you get whatever you've worked paid as it's worked, rather than spread over 12 payments.

mam29 Fri 26-Jul-13 07:17:39

Ahhh teachers where do I start?

*my old crap senior school teachers but that was long time ago so will let that one pass some violent alcholics, lazy, had their faves, unprofessional.

*freind 1 hed od department at senior school whinging that primary school teachers get paid same their jobs much harder mucg higher level kids more challening-I kind of agree on that one.

*freind 2 infant school early years yes rest of teachers take the piss with sickness so will i if im stressed or bad back they cant prove that. if teacher takes one year paid sick leave then comes back just 1 week they acrue another full years paid sick thourght she must be exagerrating although she as off sick with stress for nearly 6months work related stress they cant touch me.

* 3 dd1 starts local primary for for 2,months her job share rception teaher was off sick with stress more personal problems than challenging intake she only taught 3days.
She had other sporic sick days as well as every time I saw a supply teacher used to get quite annoyed.

speaking to other parents this teacher had been on and off sick for years.
The deputy head only met once when we looked around she then retired a good 2years later ill health can never remmebr seeing her yet she was technically employed.

year 1 thourght must get better but year 1 teacher must have had more sickness than wouyld have reasonably been allowed in private sector.At parenst evening year teacher preceeded to bleat o about how hard she worked how hard her job was.

I we ever arrived early classroom was empty,
as ssoon as bell went at 3.15 they couldent wait to leave.

There was another part time teacher she dident teach my dd she wa also parent at school and made it clear she was only it it as was doss easy job that fitted in around her kids.

*Ohh ihad the privilage of being on pta where we decided at each meeting to vote on what money should be spent on had to be something uge benefit of kids, tangible to parents and not part of everyday school expenses.

each meeting a teacher was suppost to grace us with their presence and put in request forms which we went through accepted or denied.

ohh where do I start on this one.

we agreed to fund seasonal craft materials think xmas and easter but our ever digilant treasuer had cheek to ask for receipts to which they said we wouldent possibly keep receipts for everything we brought that we were being unreasonable.

wehn we asked deputy head why the school had no afterschool activities we got the teahers work hard you cant expect them to work on extra for free that they had now power make that happen.

The one who run a very small lego club for limited amount of juniors to biy £250 kit we said we could arnge for then to get days bagpackig in local supermarket and we could match waht they raised and their was no we dont have time to fundraise.

I had huge pleasure in turning down he 10 electronic stapleguns for each clasroom like they couldent share at 30quid each i think they could!

i came away from most meetings with a negative attitiude of teachers who lived in alternate universe.

I did think the £200 voucher collection by parents of a truly crap year 1 teacher was bit much.

It seemed ofsted agreed with me and slated the amount temporay teachers and suddently highlighed how bad sickness was withinin the school as parent of an infant I never really saw the junior side,.

After 1term of truly hateful bully year 2 teacher who wouldent listen told us off and patronised us sayting you read what i tell you to read your child can only read 1-3pages ofher book at night did we leave.

new school all the teachers give 45mins of their time for free run after school clubs for free or cheap.

dd1s teacher this year noticed as id brekkie club and dome afterschool cstuff was in her office until 8am -5pm .

they truly did seem to go extra mile.

Most schools have tas now who do lots in my day they had no tas and bigger classes and have find memories of my junior teachers.

every time i see teachers and unions on tv get bit mad.

their childcare bills must be less than someone not in term time job surly.

dds nursery runs 51weeks a year grants only 38weeks a tear as thats all teachers work+inset days and bad weather days,

since we let the heads let, a few have left as cant hack the pressure of 2 new superheads brought in to sort school out the year 3 teacher wjos been off sick last 10years is coming back as job share with temporary contarct year 3teacher and i just think thank god my childs not in year 3 in that school in september.

I dont hate all teachers there are good ones.

Maybe I just had a few bade xexperiences with them lieing to me every parent evening saying its fie then last day year 1 report no shes behind then in year 2 reusing extra reading help as she passed the flipping phonics test.

Thew newly qualied teacher she had since jan been very hard working and deserved an end of term pressie.

as or breckfast club. after school club and lunches schools hire staff to deal with that so gues teachers get a lunch hour unlike people in other professions ie midwife.

They get reasonable pay and unless they working in sink troubled school then dont know what their issue is

katydid02 Fri 26-Jul-13 07:23:17

Belle15 We are constantly told we don't do enough, should work longer, be paid less etc. The government are raging a war against teachers and using the media to justify it.

I agree, however remember the TA who is also being told the same thing and has a much lower salary in the first place. Many TAs I know are now doing what teachers would have been doing 15 years ago but are still paid a paltry sum that has not increased in years. Others are losing hours as schools cannot afford to pay for TAs any more.

mam that does sound like a poorly managed school, hardly surprising all the staff were off sick in some ways. Funny though the disproportionate number of sick days if the job is so easy... As your post shows though not all schools or teachers are awful, none of us teachers on this thread have complained about our job? We were complaining about everyone slagging us off for simply being a 'teacher' irrespective of whether we work hard as individuals. If you bothered to read the thread that would be perfectly clear that those of us that work hard, are also extremely frustrated with those teachers that don't - the same as in every profession.

mam that does sound like a poorly managed school, hardly surprising all the staff were off sick in some ways. Funny though the disproportionate number of sick days if the job is so easy... As your post shows though not all schools or teachers are awful, none of us teachers on this thread have complained about our job? We were complaining about everyone slagging us off for simply being a 'teacher' irrespective of whether we work hard as individuals. If you bothered to read the thread that would be perfectly clear that those of us that work hard, are also extremely frustrated with those teachers that don't - the same as in every profession.

PaulSmenis Fri 26-Jul-13 07:47:52

We've all had and met good teachers and bad teachers. It's just like any profession.

They do say that you never forget a good teacher. That's so true. I remember 5 from my whole time through school.

It's not the training or the degree. I think a good teacher has that indefinable balance between being a genuinely nice person who supports kids and has a good sense of humour and is a likeable person. This makes you actually want to work hard for them. But and a big but, if you cross the line god help you! You just know that you should never cross that line.

Too strict and unreasonable and you just think "piss off" and lose respect for them.

Too soft and you can't be arsed.

The rest are a bit meh.

This is just my own observation from when I was at school.

It's a bit like the difference between good managers, bad managers and meh managers.

mam29 Fri 26-Jul-13 07:51:51

I was just shocked myself from talking to teacher freind about sickness.

Then witnesses it for myself a few had been on and of sick for years.
I dident relaise there were so many temporary teachers until ofsted came out.

I think that was the heads downfall he couldent seem to manage the sickness it was endemic. He was such a nice man shame really.

Yes I dident really have great experiences in year r, 1 or 2.
year 2teacher was out of classroom as soon as she could.
whinging to me at parents evening how hard she works.

Like I say i someone done good I sing their praises.

dd1 since moving after october half term has had 2 fab teachers, lots of fab tas who dont get the pay and conditions one gave dd extra help with readings and spellings one to one and small groups.
she had seperate pe teacher.
The higher level teaching assistant who taught re and covered when teacher was planing time or meetings.

Seeing how a fe staff gave up their time for free to do meet a greets, afterschool clubs and other events the really did go extra mile.
The few staff they had were not off sick a lot.

I have read the thread and I disagree with the op.

Its hard as parent who worked in private sector to hear them whinging on news and in real life and get on with it.

most are good and just get on with it and acknowledge in most cases its good job still do think much harder at secondry level.

As my mam would say what you want a blue peter badge or a medal-The term hard working public sector bugs me anyway as that implies other professions dont work hard.

Judging by end of term primary and all the gifts I think most teachers are appreciated and many say ohh i couldent be a teacher all those kids has to be ajob you love doing not just a job that has cushy hours and fits in around kids.

If I was to survey lots of jobs teaching at least offers part time job opportunities and fits in around family life.

If term is only 38weeks per year then thats 14weeks per year.

alreadytaken Fri 26-Jul-13 07:53:10

I have three problems with teachers - some expect gratitude just for doing their job and they often the ones doing it badly. There is a culture of expecting gratitude and gifts and of complaining about parents and blaming them for everything. Of course if the children do well it is all down to their brilliant teaching hmm. The second problem is that they are used to dealing with children who know less than they do and believe they can act in the same way towards adults, therefore they can be patronising when talking to adults. The third problem is that they defend their colleagues actions even when the colleagues behaviour has been indefensible, that causes me to lose respect for the poor judgement of the person defending them. I would not say I have experienced any brilliant teachers - first or second hand - but I've met both good and very bad. The good get praise and thanks, the bad don't usually get the criticism they deserve.

Children, IME, tend to be very good judges of secondary school teachers and even at primary they may see past handing out sweets.

Caster8 Fri 26-Jul-13 07:59:49

To be fair to teachers here, there a huge amount of them on MN.
And there are also a huuuge amount of parents here too!
So there are bound to be many clashes.

Teachers come home from work, try to reelax on MN and get parents again!

Blissx Fri 26-Jul-13 08:02:17

PaulSmenis - technically, the true 'starting' salary for a teacher is about £6 to £9k. For a PGCE anyway and that doesn't include additional student loans. Many people forget that there is a year of working/training before becoming an NQT on about £21k.

My two pence worth about the new performance related pay and why it won't work:
1. How exactly are you able to accurately measure 'performance'? Here's a common scenario: teacher1 spends a whole academic year putting in the ground work for a child in order for them to become a better learner for the future. Teacher2 in the next year gets that child and doesn't have to put in half the work the previous teacher did but gets a 'bonus' due to a good score that child gets with them or should teacher1 have received that bonus?

2. Or another scenario; childA has a private tutor that the parents pay for. ChildA gets a great exam result. Should that mean the teacher gets a bonus for the private tutors one to one work?

3. Teacher1 has a family that they have to rush home for, but they work until about 11pm to midnight to make sure planning and marking is done. Teacher2 has no dependants and can work unit 5-6pm planning on school premises and marking and is easily visible by management. Teacher2 gets a pay rise but teacher1 doesn't-which is fair?

PRPay is a joke. It is like saying I have this 'special' way of teaching that I am saving up and won't use until I get promised a bonus. Rant over grin

I can't remember my Mum and Dad ever questioning the teachers about anything growing up, or saying anything derogatory about them. They trusted the teachers to do their job. They didn't have email or a home/school diary to write reams of info in.

But now parents seem unable to let teachers get on with it without constant interfering and questioning.

What's changed?

Caster8 Fri 26-Jul-13 08:02:55

The problem from a parent's pov, is the opposite!
They may experience bad teaching, of which there is a fair bit, up and down the country if you ask me [because rarely does a bad teacher leave a school once they are there, because they know very well that they would not be employed as a teacher elsewhere], and then they encounter teachers on here!

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 26-Jul-13 08:04:58

MrButtercat

"Yes in other professions if you're crap you're out pronto."

Nice sentiment, shame that it is actuality BS.

KingRollo Fri 26-Jul-13 08:08:49

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

YoureAllABunchOfBastards Fri 26-Jul-13 08:10:11

My close friends and family are pharmacists, opticians, web designers, factory workers, shop assistants, carers, careers advisers, youth support workers, writers, journalists, engineers, IT support.

Barring carers, I don't see many of the above taking a slagging on a regular basis.

But it's alright - if being threatened by a parent and told to fuck off by 13 year olds doesn't faze me, then random Internet complaints won't.

I am now compiling my bus list....

PaulSmenis Fri 26-Jul-13 08:15:52

Blissx, performance related pay is shit for everyone. I missed out on a bonus once because my son was ill and my employer was pissed off because I'd taken the time off. They told me as much.

Look, many of us have done the degree, have had a student loan and have started off in a junior position for low pay. I was considered a junior for 3 years and started on 13k which went up to 15k during that time. I wasn't really qualified until I had done my time as a junior designer. It's taken a good few years to start earning decent money. I think it's the same in all specialised jobs; like being an apprentice. It might have been different if I was in London.

I respect teachers and realise that they do an important job, but really can't see how they are getting a raw deal. The people I know who are teachers seem to enjoy their jobs and they are in a relatively secure position.

Life isn't fair. I'm not slating teachers, but really, all jobs can be shit. Everyone in all professions should have a union, full sick pay and a pension.

Caster8 Fri 26-Jul-13 08:17:57

I think that in the olden days! Sparkling, teachers were very bright.
Now that teaching is much more to the cirriculum script, teachers dont have to be so bright.
<runs away and hides>

PaulSmenis Fri 26-Jul-13 08:19:27

I actually feel sorry for them regarding the curriculum ad constant changes. Some teachers I know have said that it gets in the way of teaching, which is why they went into the profession.

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 26-Jul-13 08:20:26

As we seem to be getting in to PRP, in every firm that I have worked for that does it, they have a base line for the "raw materials" if the materials are not up to scratch they get returned.

I realise that this is not the case for all firms but it is the case for most.

Blissx Fri 26-Jul-13 08:22:56

So if PRP is so shit, why are you saying everyone should have it, Paul? Surely it should be the opposite and no one should have it? Or do you not agree? You do seem to be slating teachers or at least getting defensive. Nowhere in my post did I say anything about how teachers have it worse than any other job. I was just giving my opinion on PRP in general and pointing out that you don't just do a three year degree and suddenly become teacher. You seem to be projecting there.

deepfriedsage Fri 26-Jul-13 08:23:08

That was something my childrens school hated. My childrens attendance went low due to their medical conditions. The children didn't fall behind at school, they did better than expected in assessments on return to school, after time at home. My youngest said they learn more from me than at school and would prefer to be home schooled. Goes to show a dyslexic, brain damaged parent can do a better job than a teacher at school.

alistron1 Fri 26-Jul-13 08:30:12

My DP has been responsible for a 60% increase in pupils achieving C+ gcse passes in his department. He has done this over a 4 year period. His pay has not increased in that time, in real terms it has decreased. Neither has he had a bonus.

He's met/ exceeded all his PM targets and was an integral part of his school getting a 'good' from OFSTED. Again, no increase in pay or any sort of bonus.

I think lots of the teaching profession would welcome some sort of system where they get paid more if they achieved/exceeded targets. It will never happen though. Or a system where they got paid an hourly rate to reflect that vast number of hours worked over the 1265 they are contracted for.

Caster shock sad

spectacular Fri 26-Jul-13 08:35:57

I think if you are not paid for the holidays then it is only fair for comparison reasons to quote the full time equivalent salary, so that a comparison with those professions who get 5 weeks holiday a year is fairer.

The £21k starting salary would be around £24.5k and the £35k for a long serving secondary school teacher equates to just over £41k.

For a private school teacher with 19 weeks holidays the £21k becomes nearly £30k and the £35k almost £50k.

A head on £100k is the full time equivalent of £117k in state and £142k in private, although I imagine heads work more of their holidays?

I think most teachers work hard but do sometimes seem a little sheltered from just how hard things are in the private sector right now. Many people ate in zero hours contracts with no paid holiday and no right to ANY sick leave. It is a depressing trend and one which the teaching unions are right to fight hard against as with all these things, it is a slippery slope once you start accepting major changes to contractural terms.

That said PRP is an absolute must, as it is in every good teacher's interest to weed out the weakest links, as their poor performance reflects on the way the profession is viewed. The private sector has many years of experience in measuring the unmeasurable wink so it can be done!

PaulSmenis Fri 26-Jul-13 08:38:10

Blissx, I'm not projecting anything, just saying that you take the rough with the smooth. Some aspects of people's are enjoyable or rewarding in some sense, but others suck. That's life really and an unfortunate reality for a lot of people. I'm not saying it's right.

Fwiw, I developed a bit of a chip on my shoulder regarding the teaching profession when I relocated, had no family near by and didn't really know anyone. I was extremely ill and had to travel to the other side of the country for a couple of operations. Due to the way the NHS does things, I couldn't see anyone in my local area until all the admin went through.

DP worked away and I had no choice but to take my son with me so my mum could look after him. My parents refused to come and do it here as they had to work. Unfortunately, I was very ill after one op with sepsis and a really bad infection. They put me on IV antibiotics and was in for ages until I was well enough to leave.

Talk about shitty and DSs teacher was a complete bitch about it and said that I just couldn't do these things. What part of "I have no choice" did she not understand? I explained everything to her. For the record, my mum is a teacher and thought the school were being total aresholes. Their threats about escalating the matter really pissed me off.

alistron1 Fri 26-Jul-13 08:41:17

When things were good in the private sector ( I know because I was working in it) I didn't see people wanting teachers to have the same benefits as private sector employees. I had free gym membership, pay rises, bonuses - DP didn't. And my salary was greater than his.

But as soon as things are tough in the private sector teachers are told they need to live in the real world? What a load of guff.

I can't think of very many professions in any sector that are subject to the same levels of scrutiny and accountability as teaching.

deepfriedsage Fri 26-Jul-13 08:45:21

Paul, sounds like the school were the same with you. It was explained to me the schools get fined and told off over student attendance, so torture families under strain to stop the school getting into trouble.

I was also disgusted at the attitude to SEN funds, the attitude is the money is the schools overall budget, theyforget they are given money to help a child and they effectively hog the child's money and torture a child, yes pain when it is not necessary is torture, witholdiing equipment Drs say they require

bobbywash Fri 26-Jul-13 08:47:55

alistron try lawyers or doctors, constant scruitiny, and accountability, regulations, rules and contracts also being changed constantly. Funding cutbacks etc.

People will usually think their profession or those of a spouse/partner/close relative is harder than some others. DP's sister is a midwife, I think she has it easy compared to me, she thinks it's really tough.

What get's a lot of people is the pension point, and the underpaid arguments. They just see the holidays and think that's it.

Umlauf Fri 26-Jul-13 08:49:23

I am also confused about the potential implications of performance related pay. (I'm not a teacher although I have a vested interest as I've been considering training to be one for 5 or so years, and although I'm currently teaching tefl overseas, hope to move back to the uk in time for ds1 to start primary school). I love my job but I have very little paperwork, no inspections, very little interaction with parents (although the ones I do meet are fantastic) no pension, no holiday pay (contracted sept-June) and only 1k a month so annually 9k!

I went to a grammar school which took the top 11+ performers (it wasn't enough just to pass it) and there was not a D grade or below in my year group, at a level only 2 students chose not to go to university out of 200-odd. Surely a teacher at this school would sail up the pay scale?

I had an excellent, inspiring French teacher who was much loved by all his students. He left to teach in a challenging school because he genuinely wanted to make a difference to his students and felt he could do more good in a lower performing school. Under performance related pay, would not more teachers like him be compelled to stay at the 'easier' schools? You would have to have an incredibly strong sense of vocation not to do so.

Ergo, would not higher performing schools be able to employ the better, more engaging and hard working teachers, whilst the lower performing schools be left with lower performing teachers, thus creating an even larger discrepency in education standards?

Have I got this completely wrong? Don't get much Gove-news overseas (thankfully!)

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 26-Jul-13 08:51:45

deepfriedsage

How well would you do in a class of thirty?

PaulSmenis Fri 26-Jul-13 08:52:00

Yes, I think it was all about maintaining their outstanding status. It wasn't like I was dicking around. I had been having health issues before I left and had had some tests. I didn't hear back for ages and assumed all was ok. I then got a call telling me that I had to come in for an urgent operation and could only have it done by the consultant I'd seen.

It was a crisis situation and I was too ill to stand up for myself at the time. My employer was very angry about the fact that I had the temerity to be ill and end up in hospital! Which also added to the stress. Meanwhile, I felt completely ill and shitty.

Anyway, time for me to start work!

HappyMummyOfOne Fri 26-Jul-13 08:54:30

There are good and bad teachers just like good or bad people who work in other jobs. PRP is a good idea, proving your results and efforts is better than everybody simply moving up the scale.

Most teachers and TA's i know work extremely hard but am sure there are a few that do the bare minimum, recycle the same work and dont do any clubs or get involved with PTA events.

As for bad press, they have it easy compared to social workers. Just google comments on social workers to see the slating they get in a very high workload low paid job considering what they do.

deepfriedsage Fri 26-Jul-13 08:58:24

Paul, yep, outstanding school here too. They were fuming the children on 50% roughly attendance did better with me teaching them, with my health issues than they with their qualifications could achieve, they were despirate to prove I was the problem at every turn, everything showed they were the problem.

The private, ed psych wouldn't touch their referral when I gave evidence and explained what school had done

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 26-Jul-13 09:00:04

PRP is a good idea, proving your results and efforts is better than everybody simply moving up the scale.

Again what are the standards for the results?

How do you prove your efforts?

alistron1 Fri 26-Jul-13 09:02:07

I didn't realise it was in teacher's contracts to be involved with PTA events. Will that be a PRP measure?

MrButtercat Fri 26-Jul-13 09:03:19

Alston that is rubbish,I was a teacher so know full well that other sectors family and friends are in are scrutinised just as much.

Ever heard of share holders,clients,managing directors- they all want maximum results,profit and progress just the same.Workers have to stump up with results and they do with zero bellyaching or unions arguing against every single attempt to raise results and standards.

The fact is whether teachers like it or not teaching has to keep evolving and if we are to keep up with the rest of the world standards and results have to be improved,scrutinised and stretched.

There is also zero money to fund gold pelted pensions,pay rises simply for arse time in the classroom etc,etc.

If things are so wonderful elsewhere then leave,it's simple.

alistron1 Fri 26-Jul-13 09:03:53

Maybe OFSTED should rate teachers on how many cup cakes they can shift at the summer fete?

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 26-Jul-13 09:07:10

MrButtercat

You do know that around the world the UK system of education is widely copied.

alistron1 Fri 26-Jul-13 09:07:47

Butter - I worked in a competency based profit driven environment. It in no way compared to the scrutiny teachers face. If I worked harder I got a reward - eg a bonus. If a teacher works harder so many factors influence the outcome ( eg how children perform in statutory tests)

You say you were a teacher - my DP has been in the profession for 17 years. Year on year there have been significant changes and goal post shifting. When did you leave?

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 26-Jul-13 09:08:27

"I was a teacher"
"gold pelted pensions"

these two statements do not go together. (ignoring the spelling)

alistron1 Fri 26-Jul-13 09:09:06

And wouldn't it be a shame if pay and conditions forced skilled and dedicated teachers out of the profession?

SirChenjin Fri 26-Jul-13 09:12:11

Boney - sorry to nitpick, but you do know that there is no such thing as a UK wide education system?! wink

Caster8 Fri 26-Jul-13 09:13:31

I think one of the problems that teachers have, is that after a while, it becomes apparent who the worse teachers are.

Worse teachers affect a lot of families.
If there are say worse civil servants, it does not directly impact many people, at least not in ways that are so visible and so meaningful.

But I do agree with the op that not many of us wish to do it yet we give them a bad press.

MrButtercat Fri 26-Jul-13 09:14:04

Re spelling Ipad woes,have no intention of scrutinising every post I do thanks.hmmI type quick.

noblegiraffe Fri 26-Jul-13 09:15:25

I used to work in the pharmaceutical industry, the second most regulated industry behind the arms industry, with regular scrutiny, audits from the medical authorities etc.

It was nothing like as stressful as an Ofsted, because it was all about whether your files were in order and whether you had adhered to regulations. If you had, you were fine. You didn't have to worry about all those completely unexpected things happening in the classroom that could screw up your lesson. The regulations were clearly laid out and you knew if you were meeting them. Even a bloody Ofsted inspector couldn't tell me what an Outstanding lesson would look like. It's subjective nonsense.

As for teachers being paid according to their results....what about the kids? That's a massive factor in the results they get. Every year the residuals are calculated and our bottom set GCSE group achieves below their target. Does this mean that each year a different teacher suddenly becomes shit? Or does it mean that a bottom set of kids who spend half their time at college or bunking off, or who have severe behavioural issues or SEN are simply less likely to meet their computer generated target, regardless of the teacher?

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 26-Jul-13 09:17:37

SirChenjin

"Boney - sorry to nitpick"

Yes, I was being sensitive to our neighbours.

MrButtercat Fri 26-Jul-13 09:18:42

Hmmm when my dp goes through an IT release with millions of £££££,data etc riding on it believe me (having lived through both) it is every bit as stressful.

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 26-Jul-13 09:19:04

MrButtercat

I did say "ignoring the spelling"

MrButtercat Fri 26-Jul-13 09:21:52

You didn't need to mention it,it's irrelevant as most posters are on some device such as an Ipad etc.Have noticed spelling etc get chucked in often during these threads to belittle posters.

SirChenjin Fri 26-Jul-13 09:23:35

Yes, I was being sensitive to our neighbours

Who are our neighbours, and sensitive - why?

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 26-Jul-13 09:25:06

Not belittling you at all, I pointed it out as it didn't matter to the context that I was trying to convey.

BTW. you still haven't said when you left teaching.

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 26-Jul-13 09:26:41

Sirchen

that would be Scotland and Wales, both who have fine educational systems that are also widely copied.

SirChenjin Fri 26-Jul-13 09:27:28

Agree Caster.

I can think of one teacher in DC3s school who is a bad teacher - everyone knows who she is, everyone dreads their child getting her as they know that they are in for a year of little progress, high absenteeism, and little interest from the teacher. She's been a teacher for a long time, nothing can be done about getting rid of her it seems, and presumably she's on the same pay scale as all the other fabulous teachers in the school.

MrButtercat Fri 26-Jul-13 09:30:36

8/9years ago,plenty of colleagues left who applaud a lot of the changes and don't moan.To be honest I find most griping is on here but MN has a high teacher demographic I'm sure.

Have to say re term time,holiday length and length of day I am with teachers.

SirChenjin Fri 26-Jul-13 09:33:19

Yes, here in Scotland we have a very good education system. I'm not always sure that it's recognised, which is a shame - if you look at many international schools they take about the UK curriculum or the British curriculum which doesn't exist.

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 26-Jul-13 09:38:35

SirChen

Its often mentioned in the same way as the international league tables which also don't exist.

MrButtercat

Pensions have changed 4 times in the last 5 years, and will be changing again next year, gold plated pensions no longer exist for teachers.

Back to PRP, how can you set standards for PRP when those standards and curriculum are being changed every year?

MrButtercat Fri 26-Jul-13 09:39:51

Also like many I'm now in the position of viewing the profession from the eyes of a parent with children in a not great school.Your whole perspective changes when you see a profession moaning and reusing to improve when it would benefit your children.It's actually infuriating.

I have experienced a whole variety of teachers,some fantastic,some middling and dire.I find it shocking that measures to improve the middling and dire are met with such resistance by the profession.

Arisbottle Fri 26-Jul-13 09:40:08

I think the mistake the OP is making is thinking the criticism is aimed at her if she is not lazy, poorly qualified etc.

I never feel attacked as a teacher, unless I read the Daily Mail or Mumnset - and let's face it they are interchangeable. I feel respected by pupils, parents and my local community. Tbh most people think my job is harder than it is. In a nutshell I talk about a subject I loved enough to study for years - at a simpler level - and stop the buggers from hitting one another.

As teachers we just have to stop moaning, yes we get criticised but often the criticism is in response to our moaning and then the criticism happens and then we moan again. It has become a circle of negativity that teachers need to break.

When you are in the thick of teaching it is hard and therefore we naturally want to moan. During term time a short day for me is 12 hours. During peak time I am up and working at home for 5am, working at school from 7am - which I leave at 6pm. I will then be a Mum until about 8 or 9 pm before working another few hours. On those hours you start to lose perspective and you get about moany. I forget that I am working those hours because I do bugger all for 12 weeks a year and that is my choice, I suspect when you average my hours out I am not working excessively at all.

noblegiraffe Fri 26-Jul-13 09:42:56

Butter, when you do an IT release, you are releasing a finished product that you have had time to quality control and you know what it should do. Being judged on that criteria is reasonable.

When you go through Ofsted, fuck knows what they want to see, and as for planning, you can't even guarantee who is going to be in your class that day let alone how they are going to respond. Inspectors all have their individual wishlists and judgements of success or failure are subjective and based on a 20 minute snapshot.
It's not comparable. Stress levels maybe, but fairness of judgement? No.

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 26-Jul-13 09:45:02

How do you know that the profession is refusing to implement changes?

I don't know of any teacher that thinks that the system is perfect, the only resistance that I see is when the government insist on implementing change after change without seeing how the children are affected.

Arisbottle Fri 26-Jul-13 09:46:29

There is already seem PRP, I think some Headteachers need to make sure that they are only giving the pay to those who deserve it. I know when I was moving up the upper pay scale there were teachers who did not make it because there were results that were poor or the were not making a whole school contribution. In other schools you seem to move up automatically.

There are crap teachers, we all know who they are and the system needs to be quicker at moving them on, before they are in a situation in which they feel like they cannot do anything else.

The sad thing is that , in a secondary school, the strongest teachers often get promoted quite quickly and therefore spend less time in the classroom. The weaker teachers therefore are the ones who spend the most time teaching - I am not saying the only talented teachers are those in management positions

Arisbottle Fri 26-Jul-13 09:47:51

Noble giraffe you can't guarantee who will be in but unless your school has a huge attendance problem it is a fair assumption that the class on your register will be the one that is present .

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 26-Jul-13 09:51:44

Arisbottle

Apparently we can guarantee that the worse behaved won't be there because we take them out.

Its true because posters on forums say it is.

ChimeForChange Fri 26-Jul-13 09:54:27

raven I meant no 12-month salary as in no 12-month payments, paid weekly so no payments over the holidays

Arisbottle Fri 26-Jul-13 09:55:14

I wish someone had told me that rule when I was teaching bottom set year 9 in front of Ofsted and had to make progress every 60 seconds while controlling them with the arch of an eyebrow and a steely stare.

Feenie Fri 26-Jul-13 09:55:51

Yes, BoneyBack - and Heads can stop them sitting SATs to make the school look better confused

aamia Fri 26-Jul-13 09:56:57

It gives people someone to moan about. As another poster on another thread said, now the summer holidays are here, mumsnetters are moaning about their children. In September they will be back to moaning about the teachers. They will be quick to forget the trials and tribulations of looking after their own children all day long. A bit like I forget how exhausting a whole day of looking after a baby is, when I go to work and he goes to the childminder. Such is life!

coralanne Fri 26-Jul-13 09:57:00

It doesn't matter how gifted or talented a Teacher is, they cannot possibly be all things to all people.

Somewhere along the line, someone is going to become disgruntled with a particular Teacher. Guess what? That's life. We have to cop it sweet.

MrButtercat Fri 26-Jul-13 09:58:54

Noble noooooo you don't have time to quality control far from it.

A date is plucked out of the air by bosses who can't even code and who don't listen to reason.Said date then gets changed ie brought forward,extras get shoved in which needs months of coding.Said project wil be expected to be done with less bums on seats,temp staff on 4 x as much as managers etc etc.

Dp is v good at his job and worked in all sorts of environments(for big and small companies,diff sectors)- it never changes. At the end of the day you produce the code on the day whatever,bosses don't want excuses and it has to run with no bugs or it can cost the company £££££££.Don't forget other companies are waiting for said code and it filters down.There are security implications,time,money- all at risk.

Just using IT as an example,I'm sure other sectors are similar.

Got to take the kids to the beach so not ignoring answers.

SirChenjin Fri 26-Jul-13 09:58:55

Boney - that is true.

I think, in the main, teachers do a great job, as do most other professionals. Unfortunately they are in a job where they are responsible not only for our children's education but their emotional and physical wellbeing as well, and we hand over our precious poppets to what is effectively a complete stranger and trust that they will look after and help them develop their full potential. There is a lot of emotion involved in that process as a parent, and a huge responsibility on the part of the teacher. When you get a bad teacher, or a bad school, it can have a massive impact on a child and its family for the rest of its life.

It's not a job that I could ever do, but as a parent I will (and do) support the teacher and school 100% when I know I'm getting that 100% support back - iykwim?

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 26-Jul-13 10:01:17

The amount of misinformation about teachers/teaching and education in general is amazing, what is even more amazing is that people believe it without any proof.

I always find it surprising the number of people that think teaching is an easy job, with amazing benefits, long holidays, good pay etc... yet don't choose it as a career? If it really is such a good deal, why don't more graduates choose it as their first choice career path confused

For the record, I love my job as a secondary teacher, when I am actually planning or in the classroom. what I hate, and particularly at the minute, is reading the news on a weekly basis to hear the latest whim of Gove, based on fuck all research, always with the underlying implication that teachers are shit and that is why he is having to swoop in and change things. Most teachers I know, want to improve, want to try new things, want to make things better in school year after year. What is frustrating is all this impending change and uncertainty is doing is making everyone run about like headless chickens trying to jump through the latest hoop, showing progression every five minutes to someone that is going to watch 20 minutes of me teaching (which for the record is about 0.2% of the teaching I do in a year).

PaulSmenis Fri 26-Jul-13 11:40:27

MrsHerculePoirot, I think one of the reasons that people don't consider teaching is because you never have the chance to teach when you're growing up. You know if you're good at English, science or maths from an early age and that usually shapes what you go on to do after school.

scottishmummy Fri 26-Jul-13 11:52:22

Buttercat,can you draw directly from your own experience or is it all simply your dh said?
It's about as much use as the man at the bus stop says
I think 1st hand account carries more gravitas than husband said....

Tanith Fri 26-Jul-13 12:23:15

I childmind for a number of teachers (btw, we get a lot of slating from people who don't know better).
One of them has been coping with the aftermath of a failed Ofsted. Another has had a violent pupil with SEN who has attacked her regularly and destroyed displays and resources. Both have been incredibly stressed and have broken down when they collected their child.

Because they care. Because they're desperately trying to do the best job they can under difficult circumstances with little support and a lot of condemnation and demanding from those who could make their jobs so much easier and don't purely for political reasons.

That's the reality of teaching these days.

I don't see politicians or IT professionals or dentists or lawyers etc. being kicked, punched and sworn at as part of their jobs and going back into work again and again, knowing it'll happen the next day and the next...
And being blamed for their own assault.

Arisbottle Fri 26-Jul-13 12:37:17

Mrs hercule I chose teaching because it is a great job, relatively easy on comparison to other professions with great holidays

noblegiraffe Fri 26-Jul-13 13:22:46

Aris, I was thinking in particular of a time I was due to be observed by the head. In my class was a particularly poorly behaved child who was also statemented for SEN. I had already on two occasions had to restrain him from hitting other children in the class, and the school was trying to arrange a different educational setting for him. He wasn't supposed to be in my lesson, but he turned up anyway. That was a bit stressful.

What about traveller children, and truants? Kids who have been off sick for ages and suddenly pitch up for your observed lesson not knowing what you've been doing for the last few lessons? Hard to plan for them if you don't know who will be there.

Arisbottle Fri 26-Jul-13 14:41:09

Because of where I teach we have quite a few traveller children, as well as children who don't come in when it is harvest time. I always have a back up plan in case they are there, particularly if I was being observed and you only get observed a few time a year.

morethanpotatoprints Fri 26-Jul-13 14:44:28

think too many parents object to the system and the Policies from Gov and blame the teachers for this.
I know the education system isn't one that most people would choose, but teachers do a fine job with the system that is in place.
If you don't like this system you have choices, such as Private or H.ed you don't have to send your children.
The teachers I have come into contact with have been doing the best they can and I don't know one who did it for any other reason than it being a calling.

deepfriedsage Fri 26-Jul-13 17:15:18

I would blame the school for a violent SEN child, obviously the school is not able to meet the child's needs. Maybe like the examples on here the teacher picked on the sen chilfs spelling, humiliated, belittled the child, found the child's sen a joke, its so easy to see how that could happen. Poor child failed by the school is my first thought, not for the adult who chose the professioni and would be party to have failed the child.

ChestyNut Fri 26-Jul-13 17:20:02

Join the club OP we nurses have taken a slating recently and don't get paid much either.

sheridand Fri 26-Jul-13 17:21:14

You must be near me arisbottle, i'm in the traveller capital of the UK and it's important to have a weather eye on when they are about or likely to be in. The Summer term is pretty much a no-show. Girls start dying off in days in about Year 5, by Year 9 they're pretty much gone.

The differentiated work needed to reach them is vast in scope, some of them are still 2-4 years behind the others due to never attending fully, and of course their behaviour in lessons that they subsequently don't understand is then not helpful. It's a very big issue for our local schools.

noblegiraffe Fri 26-Jul-13 17:46:53

I would blame the school for a violent SEN child, obviously the school is not able to meet the child's needs

Indeed we weren't, which is why the school was working very hard to organise a move to a more appropriate educational setting. But in the meantime we had to do our best.

Maybe like the examples on here the teacher picked on the sen chilfs spelling, humiliated, belittled the child, found the child's sen a joke

No, I didn't. In both cases it was a misplaced comment by another child which provoked the attack.

deepfriedsage Fri 26-Jul-13 18:33:54

I believe you noble, as you seem level headed, sorry that happened to you all.

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 26-Jul-13 19:24:12

"I would blame the school for a violent SEN child, obviously the school is not able to meet the child's needs."

Why blame the school when the system is inadequate.
We had very little funding for SEN thanks to gove we now have even less.

"Maybe like the examples on here the teacher picked on the sen chilfs spelling, humiliated, belittled the child, found the child's sen a joke, its so easy to see how that could happen. Poor child failed by the school is my first thought"

You should take your show on the road its very funny, response to this is what noble said.

MrButtercat Fri 26-Jul-13 21:06:57

Scottish having supported dp for 22 years and lived through more release dates and office rants than I care to remember I think I'm more than qualified to comment thanks.hmmCould get him to post himself but a) he’s working and b) he'd say the same.

SirChenjin Fri 26-Jul-13 21:13:42

Ignore Scottish. She can't help getting her spurtle out and giving things a good old stir.

scottishmummy Fri 26-Jul-13 21:15:29

Your husband says carries as much gravitas as wee man at bus stop says
What's your opinion?
or is it simply your dh says

SirChenjin Fri 26-Jul-13 21:17:56

The wee man at the bus stop might be an expert on a subject. Never mind opinions, go on fact.

scottishmummy Fri 26-Jul-13 21:20:21

If so said wee fella can post other than regale with my husbands says this,says that
Or getting all radical a woman could have her own opinion
Other than dh says...

SirChenjin Fri 26-Jul-13 21:22:41

Her dh is working. Better facts that opinions.

scottishmummy Fri 26-Jul-13 21:26:42

As a former teacher whats your opinion buttercat
It's somewhat passive to couch your opinions via your dh
What's your take seeing its you posting not him

SirChenjin Fri 26-Jul-13 21:30:21

Opinions on what?

MrButtercat Fri 26-Jul-13 21:30:45

My opinions are exactly what I've posted. Pretty obvious I would have thought.

scottishmummy Fri 26-Jul-13 21:32:12

In real life do you prefix sentences with my husband says or just on mn

MrButtercat Fri 26-Jul-13 21:37:06

He isn't my husband.

None of my posts prefix with "my husband says".

SirChenjin Fri 26-Jul-13 21:37:23

Depends if it's fact.

Is it your husband who's a teacher Scottish?

scottishmummy Fri 26-Jul-13 21:42:39

So all the trials and tribulations of your dp aside,lets forget the deadlines and£££ IT
A fair few your posts are dp this that..
Is your only contention I Said dh not dp

SirChenjin Fri 26-Jul-13 21:46:50

Is he a teacher Scottish? I could have sworn he was.

MrButtercat Fri 26-Jul-13 21:48:50

Soooooooo your contention is I have a partner whose career I can compare my experience of teaching with.

Strange

scottishmummy Fri 26-Jul-13 21:52:23

My contention is you assert pov on teachers via your dp and his work
Not you opinion,your vicarious opinion based on his trials and tribulations
Given youre a former teacher I'd expect you have some insights to add

SirChenjin Fri 26-Jul-13 22:03:16

It's called comparison.

Not answering my question about your DH I notice.

MrButtercat Fri 26-Jul-13 22:03:59

Erm I have ie there are stresses and people work hard in all sectors,teaching doesn't have the monopoly on stress or hard work.

scottishmummy Fri 26-Jul-13 22:06:14

I note I'm not the only poster to note your my dp said posts

SirChenjin Fri 26-Jul-13 22:07:07

Buttercat's been pretty insightful and didn't hold back from voicing her opinions. Read the whole thread. It helps.

MrButtercat Fri 26-Jul-13 22:07:26

Really hadn't noticed,don't actually give a shit tbh.

MrButtercat Fri 26-Jul-13 22:09:06

Thanks SirCh smile

Thought you made a good point in your post,it is an emotive area when you have dc involved.

scottishmummy Fri 26-Jul-13 22:09:10

Jolly good,and what does dp say
Seeing he so vocal

MrButtercat Fri 26-Jul-13 22:13:12

Scottish have already posted,feel free to scroll down,you're beginning to look like a bully(and slightly unhinged).

SirChenjin Fri 26-Jul-13 22:18:44

Away with you Scottish, scram. Time for a wee hot milk and bed.

It is an emotive area. Teachers see hundreds, if not thousands, of children over the course of a teaching career, whereas parents have a couple of children (maybe less, maybe more) who are the most important things in their lives. To hand them over to a teacher who is recognised as a bad teacher is gut-wrenching, whereas knowing that they have a good or excellent teacher for the year is an absolute joy and relief.

scottishmummy Fri 26-Jul-13 22:19:39

Alas,no petty name calling doesn't make you look too clever
So we disagree?and I'd expect more than youse a bad un
Will you go back and upbraid others or just me?

scottishmummy Fri 26-Jul-13 22:20:59

Chenin,given your not moderator you don't get to say whose had their jotters

SirChenjin Fri 26-Jul-13 22:22:54

Night night Scottish. Scoot.

scottishmummy Fri 26-Jul-13 22:24:05

Gosh hope you're no a teacher wi that deskside manner

SirChenjin Fri 26-Jul-13 22:27:04

Don't you be worrying about that. Drink up your milk.

scottishmummy Fri 26-Jul-13 22:28:40

Ahh bless this could go all night
Me rebuking your piss poor putdowns
You must wok on that deskside manner

SirChenjin Fri 26-Jul-13 22:30:56

Bless??!

mignonette Fri 26-Jul-13 22:34:23

The psychological load from one's own schooldays surely must colour how teachers are perceived by adults? How can it not? Many of us have polarised experiences. We rarely remember the adequate, only the really good and the really bad. Hence the heated comments.

scottishmummy Fri 26-Jul-13 22:40:25

Like most,I had range of teachers from shouty to inspirational

Caster8 Fri 26-Jul-13 23:28:24

We all know that we can say, dp says, exh says, dh says whatever.
The rabbit said...

MrButtercat Sat 27-Jul-13 07:21:50

And plenty do.

If you can't comment on observations from close quarters and only your own very narrow experience half the threads on MN wouldn't exist.

Caster8 Sat 27-Jul-13 08:55:54

sm enjoys goading. Anybody will do I think.

alreadytaken Sat 27-Jul-13 09:13:15

to get back to the OP - I think I've finally sussed why teachers moan so much. On yet another thread about teaching it was said that teachers need to be self-confident and only those who are stick around. Someone also said "That said, there are plenty of miserable old (& young) buggers just going through the motions competently enough. Their classes might not enjoy their lessons, they probably hate the job, but if the kids hit target they're untouchable." The problem is all those miserable buggers are so self-confident they think they are wonderful when in fact they are at best average. The parents, or at least some of them, can see that and hence you have unhappy teachers, parents and students. Don't think there is an easy solution to that so I guess teachers will be moaning forever.

scottishmummy Sat 27-Jul-13 21:30:30

Teachers aren't more derided than any other professional group on mn
maybe a vociferous minority feel got at.plenty professional jobs are misrepresented in life on mn
And to an extent thats the way it goes,not right,not fair but cest la vie

ravenAK Sun 28-Jul-13 06:19:05

alreadytaken - nope, if you're going to quote me, I'd have to say that the 'miserable but competent' types are usually under no illusions as to their own performance.

I work with one, pleasant enough lass, who will cheerfully tell you she's all about the holidays & will be quitting as soon as her dh says she can hmm. She does a just about passable job, stays under the competency radar & won't be missed when she leaves.

What you actually can't do these days as a teacher is what you're suggesting - be a miserable git, & yet be 'self confident' & think yourself officially wonderful. You have regular lesson observations, which if you are a misery in the classroom will come in at a '2- good' at best, & that's assuming your exam results are impressive.

There are teachers who are grumpily, but competently, going through the motions - but they really aren't doing so in a happy haze of imagining themselves to be marvellous! grin

On the whole, if you want to know why we moan so much, you can generate some reliable chuntering just by telling us we moan too much...

alreadytaken Sun 28-Jul-13 07:51:54

but I know a very miserable teacher who thinks he is wonderful. He cant understand why most of the students hate his classes and the parents aren't grateful. TBH I don't see him as competent but he teaches bright pupils and they get good results regardless of the teaching so he gets away with it. Fewer pupils take his subject to A2 than you would expect as they are put off the subject but that is something no-one seems to notice - or if they do they dont care about it.

Most people told they moan too much would at least try to stop moaning as often, teachers start threads moaning about being told they moan smile

Arisbottle Sun 28-Jul-13 08:59:03

IME the teachers ago think they are marvellous are often the grumpy can't be bothered types. When they don't get the results it is the fault of SMT, parents , the children - anyone but themselves .

As a person who thinks I do an OK job, if my class don't get the results I start with myself .

LisaTaylor2 Mon 28-Oct-13 16:17:15

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