To think parents should teach their children how to behave round dogs

(1000 Posts)
Xihha Fri 19-Jul-13 21:27:07

There have been a few posts lately about people needing to control their dogs more (and I agree, if you cant control our dog and clean up after it then you shouldn't have a dog imo), but is it unreasonable to expect parents to teach children to be a bit more careful round dogs?

Whilst walking my dog (on his lead) a child who looked about 10 ran up and stuck his head in my dogs face to make a fuss of him whilst i was picking up doggys poo, without checking if it was ok, there have been other times kids have just walked up and started pulling doggy around, this sort of thing happens a lot, especially in the summer when there are more kids out playing and the parents rarely say anything about it.

It's not really an issue with my great soppy lump of a dog because he loves kids and will put up with anything for a bit of fuss but shouldn't these kids know that you should check with the owners before approaching strange dogs and that even a nice dog can get pissed of if you start pulling it around?

I agree to some extent. I have told my DC to keep very still if a dog is giving you a sniff and not to wave their arms about and make loud noises.
They know not to touch any dog, or go near one without the owner's permission.

However DS1 (14) has a huge fear of dogs due to me getting bitten when he was a toddler, but a dog that ran out of a drive.

*by a dog

babybythesea Fri 19-Jul-13 21:32:40

Yup - totally agree. It's not rocket science to get a child to learn that they must ask the owner before they touch a dog. DD (age 4) has to ask, or she's not allowed to stroke. And we have a dog so she does understand about being gentle etc. She's just been told from the word go that not all dogs like being touched by someone they don't know so she must always always ask. We suffer from this a lot though. Our dog looks like Lassie so attracts people wanting to make a big fuss of her. Just because she looks like a dog who saves kids from wells doesn't necessarily mean she's fine to man-handle. (Although she's a dope, and it is fine, but you're not to know that if you don't know her).

Ilovemydogandmydoglovesme Fri 19-Jul-13 21:33:16

I do agree with you because a dog can snap very suddenly if frightened by a marauding child, but you might get flamed for suggesting it.

Some kids could do with being taught some manners full stop but that's a whole other thread

timidviper Fri 19-Jul-13 21:40:11

I'm with Sparkling here. My DCs were always told not to provoke or frighten dogs and not to touch one without permission but I am very wary of dogs myself and we have never had one so their experience is limited.

Xihha Fri 19-Jul-13 21:48:29

My dog looks like a white version of the hound of the baskervilles, with odd eyes and tends to trot along with his mouth open so you can see his teeth so its not even like he looks cute and harmless!

Ilovemydog yes some kids definately could!

Teaching them not to touch strange dogs is enough, that gives the owners the chance to say if theres anything their dog really hates.

EndoplasmicReticulum Fri 19-Jul-13 21:51:57

I've taught my children to stand still and not flap while dogs run up to them and jump up. It's taken a while though, my younger one was scared for a while after being knocked over as a toddler "don't worry, he's only being friendly".

I've also taught them to look out on the beach because dogs like pissing on your sandcastle.

imademarion Fri 19-Jul-13 21:53:48

I was attacked by a dog as a child and subsequently terrified of them.

Like a chump, I let my DC see this fear when they were small.

A man got cross one day in the park and pointed out I was doing them no favours and showed us some basic tactics as well as how to tell if they mean you harm or not (hint, it's in the tail!).

Ten years on, am fully paid up member of the Soppy Dog Lover Brigade and always offer to stop and let kids stroke my dog to get used to them.

It's astounding how many parents act like I've offered them an arsenic sandwich.

Kids need these skills. As discussed.

babyhmummy01 Fri 19-Jul-13 21:54:39

I was brought up not to approach a dog I didn't know. I love dogs, have grown up with them and have my own but I still wouldn't go up to one I.don't know.without checking with the owner.

IME its not just kids but adults as well who do this. I have a small patterdale and she is brilliant with kids however she is a rescue dog and absolutely terrified of adults, esp men. Because she is small and very cute ppl automatically think she is safe. It pisses me right off cos when she then barks cos she is scared they get nasty and have a go at me. Not my issue chum, my dog is on a lead and under control, you approached her without invitation so f*#@ off

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHopeful Fri 19-Jul-13 21:57:21

I think you are completely right. I'm trying to raise dd so she's not scared of dogs (dh is scared of them).

I would say at the moment I am doing really well with making sure she isn't scared but need to work harder at getting her to understand she needs to ask the owner if the dog is friendly. She is only 2.5 and doesn't run up to dogs but it does worry me she has zero fear of them.

ILovePonyo Fri 19-Jul-13 22:08:55

Imademarion what does the tail do please to indicate aggression/friendliness?! (I'm sure it's wagging if friendly but not sure about aggressive grin)

Op yanbu. Dd is 2 and always wants to stroke dogs we see out and about, she's learnt now to wait and ask the owner then hold her hand out to let the dog sniff it, and try and keep calm if she gets licked wink

imademarion Fri 19-Jul-13 22:16:07

Mad wagging (whole body in case of my pathetic specimen!) = v happy and friendly

Low = wary

High = possibly unfriendly

More specific wag-ish here

ShellyBoobs Fri 19-Jul-13 22:19:01

YABU.

It's the responsibility of the owner to make sure the animal doesn't rip the face off a child.

If they can't do that, they shouldn't be taking them out in public.

teaforthree Fri 19-Jul-13 22:19:38

YANBU. A couple of weeks ago a child ran up from behind me and smacked the dog on her back. She jumped and twisted around, whimpering, poor thing.

She's a rescue and we've had her six weeks, so although she's good with children, she's still scared and not used to being walked. I was so shocked I didn't know what to do, looked around for the parents and the dad said to the boy, "I hope it eats you up."

I wonder who's fault it would have been if she'd snapped out of fear.

ILovePonyo Fri 19-Jul-13 22:25:43

Thanks imademarion! That's useful. My sis has a dog and although he's lovely, I'm wary of him around dd, some of that article rang true for my sisters dog. Interesting reading smile

babyhmummy01 Fri 19-Jul-13 22:34:41

shellyboobs are you serious? So I walk my dog on a close lead and some random comes running up to her and she snaps cos she is startled and that is my fault??? Get a grip!

imademarion Fri 19-Jul-13 22:35:12

Ilove you're welcome, am rather an evangelist! I am grateful every day that I got the chance to experience the absolute joy of a dog in my life.

However, I do think erring on the side of caution is always the best plan.

Sleep404 Fri 19-Jul-13 22:37:38

Depends, I teach my 4yr old dd to always ask the owner if it is ok to stroke the dog and never to approach a dog when it's owner isn't there. She follows the rules because she is not afraid, but her friend whose mum gives her 5yr old ds the same lessons, is completely petrified and runs around screaming uncontrollably if a dog is anywhere close. And nothing his mum does seems to be able to calm him.
His screaming excites the dogs not on leads so they don't respond to their owners and this of course just makes everything worse. In this situation I think it is up to the dog owner to control and remove their dog from the situation. Most of whom I believe are obliging.

Turnipinatutu Fri 19-Jul-13 22:44:02

I totally agree. Children (and some adults) should learn how to behave around dogs the same as they should learn road safety.
This is especially true if they are wary or afraid of them. If people who were afraid of dogs feel threatened, they should avoid eye contact, sudden movements and shouting/screaming.
Dogs read fear in humans as aggression. Wide staring eyes, quickened pulse, sweating etc and can feel threatened themselves and therefore may bark and act aggressive in return.

Yes dogs should be kept under control, but if people knew the basics of how to behave around them if a situation should arise, then many problems, including phobias could be avoided.

Numberlock Fri 19-Jul-13 22:47:00

shellyboobs are you serious? So I walk my dog on a close lead and some random comes running up to her and she snaps cos she is startled and that is my fault??? Get a grip!

Sorry I'm 100% with Shelly. If the dog attacked, you'd seriously blame the child or parents?

babyhmummy01 Fri 19-Jul-13 22:50:07

I'd blame the parents for not teaching their child to stay away from a dog they don't know.

Lazyjaney Fri 19-Jul-13 22:51:41

I grew up in the sticks in another country, where big and badly trained dogs were all too common. We were taught to hit rogue dogs very hard with big sticks. Is that the sort of training you meant?

Purplecatti Fri 19-Jul-13 22:52:18

Yanbu. I was always taught to ask the owner if I could pet the dog and then to calmly say hello and hold my hand to it before stroking.

It's the parents responsibility to teach their children not to approach dogs they don't know and how to treat a dog that they do, but it shouldn't have to be their responsibility to teach their children how to cope with of control dogs who approach them. It should be the responsibility of dog owners to keep their dogs under control.

wharrgarbl Fri 19-Jul-13 22:54:07

If the dog attacked, you'd seriously blame the child or parents?

It depends entirely on what (if anything) the child did to provoke the dog.
If the child grabbed the dog by the tail, or ears, or face, and got bitten, well, then they just learned you don't do that to (some) dogs.
My son learned very early to ask each owner 'is he gentle?' before approaching a dog.

Lazyjaney Fri 19-Jul-13 22:54:15

Fwiw I think the UK is the only country on earth where dogs are in general valued more than children.

babyhmummy01 Fri 19-Jul-13 22:58:27

lazyjaney its not about valuing a dog over a child. But if a dog is perfectly under control on a lead and is startled or hurt by an adult or child who runs up to fuss or play and snaps then it is the fault of the person who ran over not the dog owner. If the dog is not under control and runs up and attacks unprovoked then it is entirely the owners fault but that isn't what the OP was getting at

ShellyBoobs Fri 19-Jul-13 23:01:52

...well, then they just learned you don't do that to (some) dogs.

Ah that's ok then; they'll remember that lesson while they're in hospital having bits of face sewn back on.

I didn't think of it positively like that.

babyhmummy01 Fri 19-Jul-13 23:03:55

shellyboobs you are being very unreasonable here! If a child or adult attacks a dog they will defend themselves...it remains the fault of the child or adult not the dog or the owner

MintyChops Fri 19-Jul-13 23:05:35

Oh well Shelly, seems like you didn't quite get what the OP was asking......

Children should learn how to interact with dogs because like it or not, dogs are a normal part of life and they WILL come across them whether you like it or not. It's safer for them to know what to do.

Sleep404 Fri 19-Jul-13 23:07:00

Children like animals are unpredictable. But children can't do the sort of damage that dogs can, so yes the onus needs to be on the dog owner.
Also majority of the recent stories where children were mauled by dogs, were not by dogs on leads, but overwhelming by dogs whose owners thought they were nice well behaved dogs. Not sure i would blame the child in any of those cases.

I've been bitten by a dog twice. Once when I lived abroad and someone taunted the dog while I was walking him. I wouldn't let go when he went for her so he bit me instead. And the second time was here, when the neighbours in a block of flats left their front door open, I walked past on the landing and ended up with their dog hanging off my arm. I had to throw it up the stairs to get it off me.
Both times the owners were at fault. In the first instance I knew my dog was aggressive, or rather my mum and dad did and he should have been muzzled and the second speaks for itself.

Lazyjaney Fri 19-Jul-13 23:08:23

Sorry, I see any dog as a potentially dangerous thing that some people choose to take around with them, despite the risk to others. If it bites my child in a public place where my child has a perfectly good right to be, it's your fault for choosing to carry it and I'll have your hide and your dog's too.

wharrgarbl Fri 19-Jul-13 23:08:57

Shellyboobs, exactly why do you think it should be perfectly acceptable and reasonable for children to be permitted to visit any amount of abuse on an animal without repercussions?

babyhmummy01 Fri 19-Jul-13 23:09:56

sleep404 you have missed the point I think. The OP is talking about a dog on a lead and under control and a child who didn't know the dog running up and shoving its face in the dogs face. The child is at fault or rather the parents are not the dog owner.

FreyaSnow Fri 19-Jul-13 23:10:42

I think that responsible parents teach their children how to behave in any common situation where there is a potential danger. I wouldn't decide to not bother teaching children to leave broken glass in the street alone on the basis that people shouldn't smash glass.

babyhmummy01 Fri 19-Jul-13 23:11:24

lazyjaney and if its as a result of u or ur child hurting my well controlled dog I will have yours quite frankly

wharrgarbl Fri 19-Jul-13 23:11:38

And I absolutely support people being in control of their animals at all times - on a lead (not those bloody stupid extending ones), or properly trained to respond to commands.
A friend of mine has an Akita - a dog bred to hunt bear in Japan. She once accidentally picked up chocolate, and without thinking, I grabbed her muzzle, and pulled it out. She didn't even close her mouth on my hand. Because she is a properly trained dog, with good manners.

Numberlock Fri 19-Jul-13 23:12:00

Christ almighty this is all a joke right? Dead kid = oh well they should have known better.

babyhmummy01 Fri 19-Jul-13 23:12:33

freyasnow exactly!

Numberlock Fri 19-Jul-13 23:13:13

Shellyboobs, exactly why do you think it should be perfectly acceptable and reasonable for children to be permitted to visit any amount of abuse on an animal without repercussions?

Those repercussions being severe injuries or worse?

Where did shelleyboobs say that a child should be permitted to visit any amount of abuse on an animal without repercussions? I must have missed that! I read her post, as the owner of a dog has a responsibiltiy to ensure that their dog is taught not to attack a child who approaches suddenly. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

MintyChops Fri 19-Jul-13 23:15:02

Well said Freyasnow.

WhistlingNun Fri 19-Jul-13 23:15:29

I think if you know your dog snaps/can be unpredictable/has ever bitten before/shown any threatening behavior - it's your responsibility to ensure your dog is muzzled when out in public.

My 5yo dd is aware that she should only touch dogs if they are with an owner, and that the owner has given permission.

We were actually thanked the other day for doing this. The woman with the dog said that her old dog used to be snappy and kids were forever in its face without asking.

My dd used to be terrified of dogs. She seems to have snapped out of it a lot though on her own. She now wants us to get a puppy!

Numberlock Fri 19-Jul-13 23:17:49

Sorry, I see any dog as a potentially dangerous thing that some people choose to take around with them, despite the risk to others. If it bites my child in a public place where my child has a perfectly good right to be, it's your fault for choosing to carry it and I'll have your hide and your dog's too.

Here here except I'd replace the word dog with shit machine.

babyhmummy01 Fri 19-Jul-13 23:17:53

whistlingnun any dog will attack if threatened or hurt, its a natural defense. They don't need to have ever shown any aggressive behaviour previously.

Sleep404 Fri 19-Jul-13 23:17:54

Because children are unpredictable and will not always do what they are taught and it is unreasonable to believe they will.

I teach my dd not to do lots of stuff, which given her age she has trouble remembering all of the time.

FreyaSnow Fri 19-Jul-13 23:17:55

I suppose the equivalent to some of these examples would be that if I was having a picnic in the park and had a glass bottle and a child ran up and threw the bottle in the air, smashed it and then injured themselves on the glass, I would think that the child's right to be in the park did not extend to touching my property. The same would apply if they went up to somebody else's dog and put their fingers on its eyes, face etc.

wharrgarbl Fri 19-Jul-13 23:18:40

I said this: If the child grabbed the dog by the tail, or ears, or face, and got bitten, well, then they just learned you don't do that to (some) dogs.

So she resorted to some hyperbole and said this Ah that's ok then; they'll remember that lesson while they're in hospital having bits of face sewn back on.

Difference being dog provoked->dog bite, or unprovoked dog attack.
Do you train your children not to walk into traffic? Simialr thing.

Sure, and children should be taught to not attack dogs they don't know.

Christ almighty this is all a joke right? Dead kid = oh well they should have known better.

In rhetoric, this is called a straw man argument. Of course yes, I'm advocating the death of children. I'm all funny like that. hmm

Lazyjaney Fri 19-Jul-13 23:18:54

Lazyjaney and if its as a result of u or ur child hurting my well controlled dog I will have yours quite frankly

Unlikely - even in the UK, the law favours bitten kids over biting dogs.

babyhmummy01 Fri 19-Jul-13 23:20:27

Only if its an unprovoked attack.

wharrgarbl Fri 19-Jul-13 23:20:38

The irony is I don't own a dog, have no intention of ever owning one, like some well enough when they're other people's, and live in the dog shit capital of the world.

ShellyBoobs Fri 19-Jul-13 23:22:32

...as a result of u or ur child..

What on earth is a 'u or ur child'?

If it means 'unreasonable child' then I still don't get why it's acceptable for an unreasonable child to be maimed by an animal.

babyhmummy01 Fri 19-Jul-13 23:23:46

sleep404 its not a dog owners job to parent your child though is it. If your child is in a public place where dogs are also perfectly permitted then its your responsibility to keep charge of your child not mine as a dog owner. My only responsibility is to keep my dog under control and clear up if it poops

MintyChops Fri 19-Jul-13 23:24:09

Well Lazy don't bother teaching your child how to interact with dogs then and after he or she has been bitten you can say "never mind darling, we got the nasty dog put down and the owner fined". I'm sure it will be a great comfort.

FreyaSnow Fri 19-Jul-13 23:24:16

Shelly, I think it just means you or your child.

Xihha Fri 19-Jul-13 23:24:51

shellyboobs my dog is kept under control at all times, and as i said in the original post all dogs should be kept under control! but it is a lot easier to keep your dog under control without some kid who is old enough to know better coming up and pissing it off.

Numberlock If my 9 yr old was bitten by a dog having run up and hit it or stuck his hand in its face without knowing if it was friendly damn right I would tell him it was his fault, once i'd made sure he was ok, and I would blame myself as it would clearly mean i'd failed to teach him better!

Numberlock Fri 19-Jul-13 23:26:12

live in the dog shit capital of the world

As I said, shit machines.

wharrgarrbi Do you train your children not to walk into traffic? Simialr thing. yes, I train my child not to run in front of traffic, as I do teach her not to approach unknown (or any) dogs, but if she ran in front of a car you would find that it would be the driver who was blamed regardless, because children are unpredictable, and it is up to adults to anticipate that.

babyhmummy01 Fri 19-Jul-13 23:29:14

justforlaughs blamed yes but not at fault. Your child, your responsibility

Lazyjaney Fri 19-Jul-13 23:31:13

Only if its an unprovoked attack

When the child is bleeding and needs stitches, I think you will find that there is a credibility gap when you tell the cops the child attacked your dog. Even in the UK.

FreyaSnow Fri 19-Jul-13 23:31:28

Obviously you can't always anticipate a child running in to the road. Drivers are not always blamed. My sister was hit by a car and I had to fill in a statement where I had to say who was responsible and I put my sister.

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 19-Jul-13 23:31:44

Yanbu.

LookMaw Fri 19-Jul-13 23:32:56

YANBU. I have a big Alsatian and was in shock the other day when 2 little girls just came running up to her and started smacking her nose, whilst their mum was busy chatting.

Luckily my dog is a massive softy so just sat down and took the abusive ear & lip pulling so little Millie could see how big her teeth were.

Really felt like shouting at the mother to train her kids better if she couldn't be arsed to keep an eye on them.

wharrgarbl Fri 19-Jul-13 23:33:52

There's what would be called a duty of care on both sides. Children do need to know that running screaming at/hitting/hurting dogs (and any other animal for that matter) is not ok; dog owners need to do the hard work in the first year or two of properly training their animal, then having it under control at all times, in whatever form that takes.
And no, the assumption that everyone loves your dogs is not true, and really bloody annoying. People have the right not to be harassed by your dog, even if it's only being 'friendly'.

babyhmummy01 Fri 19-Jul-13 23:35:25

lazyjaney unless there is a history of unprovoked attacks they will not force the dog to be destroyed, sorry to burst your dog hating bubble. My friend was badly bitten as a child, it was her fault for tormenting the dog. Police refused to do anything ad the dog had no history and witnesses agreed the child was at fault.

ShellyBoobs Fri 19-Jul-13 23:36:07

Shelly, I think it just means you or your child.

Jesus Christ, you're right; it's text speak - 'ur' is meant to be 'your'!

I'm afraid I'm out of here if we're now debating with text speakers.

umpti67 Fri 19-Jul-13 23:36:41

I teach mine to be wary of dogs. There are just too many unpredictable ones out there these days. A few days ago I was just walking up a public footpath and a big Alsation just went for my hand, growling and snapping. The owner, a teenager, managed to haul it off - but it was terrifying. TBH i've had more experiences of dogs coming up and licking her face in a pushchair with the owner several metres away saying "oh she's just playing". Yes she maybe, but i don't know that and it's frightening. Mine wouldn't approach a dog unless specifically invited to. Even then she'd be wary. Probably stems for the Rottweiller puppy who pushed her to the ground several times whilst the owner failed to get the dog off. We were just walking across the common that time - didn't approach the dog, it approached us and the owner refused to put it on a lead.

DelayedActionMouseMaker Fri 19-Jul-13 23:37:07

'I'd blame the parents for not teaching their child to stay away from a dog they don't know.'

The only time my kids would ever be close to a dog they dont know is when it comes running up and bounding around looking for their attention. I am a dog owner, and whilst I believe that it is sensible to teach children how to be around dogs (in fact I believe all children should be taught respect for and caution around all animals) the duty of care in most 'dog meets world' situations lies with the dog owner.
A dog is a creature capable of exacting extreme harm or even death to children or adults for that matter, simply by acting within its nature in interactive situations and because of its inability to apply human logic or reasoning to any such meeting. When we are around children, other dogs, or even adults I consider it my responsibility to apply both logic and reasoning to the situation FOR my dog, so that no unfortunate mishap ever arises.

babyhmummy01 Fri 19-Jul-13 23:39:10

Grow up shellyboobs

umpti67 but that is exactly the point the dogs you are talking about weren't under control. The OP is talking about dogs that are under control but are approached by children without invitation

FreyaSnow Fri 19-Jul-13 23:43:02

It's probably worth bearing in mind that there is a very strong link between children who harm animals and domestic violence or child abuse, so it may not be that sensible to approach the parent about a child who torments a dog and/or ignores it's distress when it is showing it doesn't want to be touched. Part of not knowing how to behave around dogs is a basic lack of empathy.

I would also be wary about approaching the owner of an aggressive or out of control dog, as that is often the consequence of a violent owner.

Xihha Fri 19-Jul-13 23:46:18

Im not saying teaching your kids how to behave round dogs is a substitute for dog owners controlling their dog, Im saying if all dogs were under control and all children knew not to provoke dogs there would be a hell of a lot less problems!

Irresponsible dog owners piss me off too!

It's the cyclist and driver arguments all over again grin, if everyone had respect and consideration for everyone else, what a wonderful world it would be! [dreamy emoticon]

Lazyjaney Fri 19-Jul-13 23:49:47

lazyjaney unless there is a history of unprovoked attacks they will not force the dog to be destroyed, sorry to burst your dog hating bubble. My friend was badly bitten as a child, it was her fault for tormenting the dog. Police refused to do anything ad the dog had no history and witnesses agreed the child was at fault

The law has moved on a lot since then, thank heavens, in response to the huge rise in dog bites and child deaths. If you bother to check the law now you will find that the very least you face if your dog bites a child in public is a hefty fine.

Donnadoon Fri 19-Jul-13 23:50:52

numberlock Serious question..Do you not shit..no?

tabulahrasa Fri 19-Jul-13 23:51:12

The thing is though that - if a child runs up and sticks its head in a dog's face, it's very easy for a dog to bite without even really meaning to.

Dog is walking with its mouth open, child sticks its face in the dog's face, dog closes mouth in surprise and while you're not talking plastic surgery or even a cut, it'd still hurt and as a dog owner not something you really want to have to deal with.

My dog is still young and a bit of a work in progress, he's a lovely tempered dog, but has a tendency to be overly friendly and will jump up, if a child wants to stroke him I'm fine with that, but I need a second to make him sit or he will leap up at them. He weighs 6 stone, there is a very real chance that he'll hurt a child just trying to say hello if they run over without any warning. (of course I'm watching and at least usually have time to grab him, but if they ask I can make him sit and greet them politely)

babyhmummy01 Fri 19-Jul-13 23:51:46

You are still fixated on unprovoked attacks. The thread is asking about a dog under control and a child who isn't. I stand by my several statements of your child is your responsibility to control not mine

Lazyjaney Sat 20-Jul-13 00:16:39

You are still fixated on unprovoked attacks. The thread is asking about a dog under control and a child who isn't. I stand by my several statements of your child is your responsibility to control not mine

You are still fixated on some imaginary rights of dogs, I suggest you check the actual law. if your dog bites a child in a public place the very least you are looking at is a fine if there is injury.

Oh, and your attitude before and after an attack will be considered in the punishment,, so better start learning to be very nice to bitten kids and their angry mothers.

babyhmummy01 Sat 20-Jul-13 00:22:58

Your child is your responsibility to control. If my dog is on a lead and under control & your child interferes with it that is your problem not mine. Control your child in a public place. My dog and I have have the same right to be there as you.

I don't like uncontrolled dogs anymore than I like uncontrolled children and irresponsible parents who blame other people for their failings

Donnadoon Sat 20-Jul-13 00:32:54

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Lazyjaney Sat 20-Jul-13 00:39:52

You are wrong, I suggest (again) you check the actual law. The huge rise in dog bites on children over the last c 10 years has driven some major changes in law, especially case rulings. A dog that bites a child and causes injury in a public place, even on a lead, is considered out of control and possibly dangerous. All species of dog are considered potentially dangerous. There is increasing pressure to make owners liable for their dogs on private property too. Things are only going to get better (for bitten people)

MidniteScribbler Sat 20-Jul-13 00:42:39

I see it as my responsibility to protect my dog from people who think it's ok to let their child run up to my dog, usually by putting myself between dog and child and telling them very firmly not to touch my dog without asking. Shame parents can't teach their own children.

I was at a dog show a number of years ago with my old girl, and a toddler ran up to her, grabbed her around the jowls, got about an inch from her face, looked her in the eyes and let out one of those ear piercing toddler schreeches. Poor dog freaked, and went backwards, stuck her nose between my legs. It was such a threatening gesture, and so lucky that it was my dog who is certified to go in to schools and not some other dog. Parent copped quite a serve. Absolute idiots. Letting your toddler free range at a dog show is just sheer madness.

babyhmummy01 Sat 20-Jul-13 00:44:32

I have checked the law but my point remains it is your responsibility to control your child not mine. And believe me that the actions of the parent and child are also taken into account.

HamsterDam Sat 20-Jul-13 00:46:45

yes kids should be taught how to behave around dogs. i wonder how often a kid goes up to a dog it doesn't know and pokes it or whatever compared to the number of dogs that go running up to people who are minding their own business? the main difference being one has the potential to rip someone's face off.
i don't care how 'harmless' your dog is or that 'he doesn't bite' i don't want your stinking mutt near me or my child.
leads should be compulsory

superstarheartbreaker Sat 20-Jul-13 00:47:20

It goes both ways but I always tell dd not to touch a dog she dosn't know.

FreyaSnow Sat 20-Jul-13 00:48:14

LazyJaney, on this thread you have referred to dogs as 'things.' Do you think you have difficulties empathising with animals?

superstarheartbreaker Sat 20-Jul-13 00:49:52

What really anoys me are those dog owners who allow their dogs to run around in parks unchecked. I got bitten on the arse as a child by a pit bull as his elderly owner couldn't control him.
You could blame it on my 'terrified'' vibes but what child isn't terrified of an out of control dog?

ems1910 Sat 20-Jul-13 00:50:03

My son always asks the owner first if he can smooth a dog, every time. If he ever touched a dog without consent he would be told off.

In this hot weather I have told him to leave all dogs alone. I don't want them being bothered by him.

I did have one incident where a man took offence when I told B to ask, he thought I was saying his dog was dangerous. Not at all. Same as I wouldn't want some stranger just coming up and cuddling my child lol!

EssexGirlOnceMore Sat 20-Jul-13 00:50:04

If your perfectly well behaved dog bit my child I would have your guts for garters. My child is afraid of dogs so he wouldn't actually be goading it, however I have also read threads where I should be encouraging my child not to be afraid of this fucking huge to him possibly bitey animal because...actually I am not really sure why. Because some people choose to have dogs so we should all train our kids not to be scared of them but also to be wary as they could attack? I am going to bed now so no point flaming me.

D0oinMeCleanin Sat 20-Jul-13 00:50:06

Lazeyjaney, that would depend upon what the dog was doing at the time and whether you could prove it was "dangerously out of control" if your child walked over to my dog and deliberately hurt or intimidated him and was injured as a result of my dog defending himself, I could probably afford a decent enough solicitor to prove it was the child who was dangerously out of control and not the dog.

Whilst the DDA laws are utterly ridonculous, they are not that bad that they immediately and without consideration of the facts punish a dog and it's owner for the dog reacting to abuse unless it's a bull breed

And even if they were that ridiculous why would you want to endanger your child simply to prove a point? Teach your child to not approach my dogs without asking and I will teach my dogs not approach your children and everyone will be happy.

superstarheartbreaker Sat 20-Jul-13 00:50:28

I didn't encourage the bite btw..he came up to me!

Donnadoon Sat 20-Jul-13 00:50:42

Leads should be compulsory Arf
Reign s on out of control toddlers should be compulsory too
midnite that's disgusting, some parents are thick as shit!

superstarheartbreaker Sat 20-Jul-13 00:52:02

2 of my dds class mates have been bitten since the heatwave.

babyhmummy01 Sat 20-Jul-13 00:53:05

hamster all of us have condemned the out of control dogs, but the post is specifically about the under control ones who are subjected to unwanted fuss by kids (& adults).

lazyjaney presumably if your child hits another hild who then hits yours back you would see that ad the fault if the other child and their parents and not your child for being out of control

Donnadoon Sat 20-Jul-13 00:54:32

Now that's another thing, some dog owners are thick as shit too beacause they should nt be walked in this heat , ours is done first thing in morn and again at dusk at the moment

D0oinMeCleanin Sat 20-Jul-13 00:57:07

Donnadoon, some dog owners work nights.

Mine are walked mid afternoon, a slow, gentle amble to the shaded woods where they are let off lead. I carry a bottle of water and collapsible bowl with me.

They'd be climbing the walls if I just didn't walk them.

Lazyjaney Sat 20-Jul-13 00:58:27

^^
You are completely deluded, nowhere does the law say that a parent has an onus to keep a child under control, in any dog bite case, in a public place. (If anything the law will next move to protect children in private places, even the dog owner's property, whack IMO is actually OTT)

The opposite is the case in fact, the dog owner is expected to act with due care, in fact its not even necessary now that the dog did bite, just that it potentially could bite, for action to be brought.

HamsterDam Sat 20-Jul-13 00:59:16

an out of control todder poses no risk of ripping someone's face off. an out of control dog does - leads should be compulsory

Donnadoon Sat 20-Jul-13 00:59:25

Fairenuff Doinmecleaning
It's the ones I've seen near to collapse out in the sun with no shade I'm referring to

babyhmummy01 Sat 20-Jul-13 00:59:38

Lol @ donnadoon about reigns

My dog is walked early in morning and then not tim after 6 as its too damn hot for her, she does go off the lead if there is no one about but if there are kids sround I keep her close and on the lead. She is entitled to be exercised and wander in public places the same as everyone else is provided she is under control and I clean up after her

MidniteScribbler Sat 20-Jul-13 01:01:00

Donnadoon you'd be astounded what sort of things we've seen. Kids sitting on the side of the agility ring holding out bits of food to the dogs that are working, and one parent let their kid run in to the ring and started running up and down the see saw in the middle of the trial. They were abusive when I had to stop my dog mid run and tell them to come and get their child. We ended up having to get security to escort them out because they wouldn't keep their child out of the ring. One day just before best in show at a major event, a free range child spilt a milkshake over a white standard poodle. Dog had to be withdrawn, and not even a sorry from the parent.

babyhmummy01 Sat 20-Jul-13 01:02:29

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D0oinMeCleanin Sat 20-Jul-13 01:04:14

No lazyjaney, you are wrong. If you reported that my dog snapped at your child and grazed his arm because your child ran at him and stuck his face in the dogs and poked at him while he was taking a shit, so you wanted something done, you'd be laughed out of the police station.

And you do have a legal obligation to keep your children under control it is called "neglect" if you let your free reign toddler play in a motorway, you'd be charged with neglect.

If you let your free reign toddler run up to dogs and screech in their face because you think it's cute, that is neglecting their safety.

HamsterDam Sat 20-Jul-13 01:04:23

kids shouldn't be touching dogs they don't know but the amount of dogs that come up to me friendly or not is the same thing, i feel harassed. i would guess dogs off leads approach other people far more often than lovely dogs on leads get poked in the eye by toddlers

babyhmummy01 Sat 20-Jul-13 01:05:41

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Donnadoon Sat 20-Jul-13 01:07:34

I can't be bothered to argue with those anymore
I have brought my kids up safely anyhoo

babyhmummy01 Sat 20-Jul-13 01:08:11

d0in exactly the point i have made several times but apparently it is our job to parent lazyjaney's child

tabulahrasa Sat 20-Jul-13 01:08:42

HamsterDam - my dog is always on a lead when there are other people around or anywhere I might expect people to be, that doesn't stop unknown children running up and trying to hug him, literally sticking their hands in his mouth and once licking him on the cheek hmm

He adores people and children especially so, but I'm still having to grab his collar because a short lead still isn't short enough to stop him moving completely when a child runs up without stopping to ask if they can stroke him and I don't want him to accidentally hurt them.

Xihha Sat 20-Jul-13 01:08:55

HamsterDam, Im not sure on that, I can tell you that people harassing my dog happens more often that other dogs off the lead wandering up to us though

D0oinMeCleanin Sat 20-Jul-13 01:09:06

I would guess that depends on the dog in question, Hamster.

One of mine is particularly small and funny looking, we are stopped almost constantly during nice weather weekends and holidays. Most children ask, yes, but a fair few do not, they just run over squealing "Awww, a puppy" and then launch themselves at her. Luckily she is very tolerant and loves all children and would rather chew off her own tail to get away than to snap at the child holding her tail, but that is not the point. That's my dog, the next puppy the child meets might not be so tolerant. And I am certainly not tolerant enough to not send you off without a bee in your ear about child/dog safety if your child is too forward or rough with my dog.

superstarheartbreaker Sat 20-Jul-13 01:10:53

The thing is op; many kids who don't grow up with dogs (because they are very expensive to own) are scared of them instinctively. The dog plays up to fear. IMO it is primarily the dog owner's responsibility not to react to said child (as they after all a domesticated wolf) but also please tell your kids not to play with unknown dogs.
Having said that, my friend's child played with a dog recently and got bitten, despite warnings from mum. Lesson learned.
I do love dogs btw but I am still instinctively wary of them around my child.

superstarheartbreaker Sat 20-Jul-13 01:12:36

I just have doggy issues from childhood!

HamsterDam Sat 20-Jul-13 01:14:46

tabula - you sound like a very responsible dog owner, if all dog owners were like you and all parents were like me the world would be a nicer place for all. smile
i have always had a phobia of dogs so i get stressed if a dog approaches me and i remember it and seems like it happens quite alot. im teaching my ds to respect dogs whilst trying not to pass on my phobia

superstarheartbreaker Sat 20-Jul-13 01:16:20

I also resent those owners with FUCKING HUGE DOGS who are obviously terrifing to small childern (and most adults) who then go '''Oh but he's so soft and wouldn't hurt a fly''. I just think ''sneak off and run fast!'' Yet I still do love dogs confused

babyhmummy01 Sat 20-Jul-13 01:16:43

superstar presumably as you are wary of dogs you teach your kids to be so also which imo means they should know not to approach one on a lead (ignoring the idiots who can't control their dogs off the lead for a min) and that is the point.

You don't want an out of control dog bounding up to you sane as my dog does not want an out of control child or adult bounding up to her.

FWIW they are more likely to.snap.when on a lead as they know they cannot escape

D0oinMeCleanin Sat 20-Jul-13 01:18:28

I am also rather bemused on occasions where the children do ask and then the parent says to the child "Okay, then, go and stroke the nice little doggies, stay away from that big one, he's too big" and I then have to explain that I'd rather they stay away from the "nice little white doggy" because he is merely tolerant of small children he does not actively like them like the nice big black doggy you've just told your child to avoid.

Size is not an indicator of temperament.

MidniteScribbler Sat 20-Jul-13 01:19:45

The thing is that we all have to live in a shared space, and if everyone just used some common sense, there would be so many less issues. I keep my dogs onlead in public places, I train them and I clean up after them. Likewise, I expect parents to do their part by not allowing children to approach without asking.

tabulahrasa Sat 20-Jul-13 01:23:21

I have a huge dog and he is friendly, lol.

The thing is that it's just as annoying for most dog owners when a strange dog bounds up as it is for people without dogs, especially if you're walking your dog.

I don't mind if my dog does it to me because he's mine, just like I don't mind my DC running up to me and hugging me...that doesn't mean I'd let any of them do it to random people in the street.

olidusUrsus Sat 20-Jul-13 01:26:10

I'm not sure why some people are struggling with the idea that their children should be taught to not fear dogs while also being cautious of them? Surely this is just basic two way respect and applies to lots of things, not just dogs.

Xihha Sat 20-Jul-13 01:28:01

superstarheartbreaker, I'm not saying that children shouldn't be scared of dogs, everyone's scared of something (I'm only just getting over a fear of small dogs, I love big dogs but anything jack russel sort of size has always scared me). I always keep my dog on the lead if there are people I don't know around and would never let him go anywhere near someone I can see is scared of dogs or who hasnt asked me if they can meet my dog.

A child doesn't need to have grown up with dogs to know not to run up to strange dogs.

D0oinMeCleanin Sat 20-Jul-13 01:30:05

It's basic manners, imo, olidus.

I might be in a rush and not have to time to deal with your child throwing himself at my dog's feet. If I had no dog would you still think it was appropriate for your child to run at me with their arms open wide while I was enjoying a nice peaceful walk?

The safety issue is of course very important, but surely it's also polite to ask if you or your child can interrupt my walk to interact with my property?

babyhmummy01 Sat 20-Jul-13 01:40:06

Safety is a big issue, but a dog on a lead only poses a safety risk if an irresponsible parent allows their free reign child to smother the dog without first checking if it is friendly. The onus to keep a dog under control s on the dog owner. The onus to keep the child under control is on the parent

Xihha Sat 20-Jul-13 01:43:40

It is indeed basic manners and does apply to all animals, the number of times i've seen kids winding up horses/sheep/donkeys etc is ridiculous, the little brats tapping on vivs/cages in the pet shop pisses me off too and dont even get me started on the bloody cow tipping!

olidusUrsus Sat 20-Jul-13 04:39:19

D0oin, I think you've misunderstood me. My post was directed to those like EssexGirl who (paraphrasing) said that she didn't see why she should train her child to be both unfrightened and cautious of dogs, partly because she didn't understand why she should bother and partly because she didn't own a dog.

I disagree with her and agree with lots of others on here who have said that dogs are a part of life that children should learn to cope with, like lots of other everyday things children see whilst out and about. I think it's important that children should be able to interact safely but also comfortably and happily with animals.

Children have the ability to be (and should be) simultaneously unfrightened and cautious of lots of things, I think that it forms an understanding of two way respect and that certainly isn't just applicable to dogs.
I think it's a life skill all children need: to be able to be aware that something has the ability to cause you harm, but if that you are safe and respectful and polite, you're much less likely to be harmed.

That's why I disagree with Essex, because children need to be taught how to be safe and respectful and polite, alongside being taught that doing certain things can be dangerous, or how will they ever cope with the situation presented to them?

By teaching kids only half of being mutually respectful, you either end up with a bold, rude child who is comfortable running up to and disturbing dogs inappropriately, or contrarily a child who is very fearful of dogs, with that fear then impacting them day-to-day whenever they may see a dog.

The aim of me teaching mutual respect to my child is that if they see a dog that they would like to stroke, they will be comfortable enough to approach the owner to ask to do so. And if they are turned away with "I'm sorry, he's not very friendly", they will have the confidence to walk away safely because they know they minimised themselves being put at risk by 1. asking and 2. moving away from the animal safely and calmly without distressing it. And hey, if the owner says yes, they get to pat the nice doggy and then move on.

I'm not sure why you thought I was recommending children be thrown under the feet of dogs without thought for it or its owner, I was vouching for the mutual respect and politeness that you thought I was disagreeing with.

Sorry Essex if it seems like I'm singling you out, I just had to highlight some of your points for D0oin to understand what I'm prattling on about!
I hope my original post wasn't too confusing, and I hope that's cleared it up. Sorry for going on, I just wanted to make my stance clear. I don't own a dog, but I do love them to bits.

LithaR Sat 20-Jul-13 05:24:49

I've been taking my dog into town since I first got her for this very reason. She is becoming a very well socialised dog and has so far coped very well with unprovoked affection.

I have a 3 year old ds so my dog is also well acquainted with children and their rough play. So far she has been doing really well even with babies pulling at her, she just sits with her back to them so they can pet her.

Numberlock Sat 20-Jul-13 06:10:05

numberlock Serious question..Do you not shit..no?

Yeah, in my own home, not on the pavement/grass for you to stand in.

Sleep404 Sat 20-Jul-13 06:43:07

Not true Babyh, the little boy who was bitten in the face recently in Ireland was only standing beside the dog at the time. The dog was on a lead and in a controlled position. There were 4 adults present and as it was a school environment the children had all been told how to behave. The child did nothing but stand there, but the dog still felt threatened and bit him.

news.sky.com/story/1109303/boy-bitten-by-dog-at-ballymena-primary-school

LtEveDallas Sat 20-Jul-13 06:48:34

MuttDog is smallish and unthreatening looking, but is nervy and growly. Under the right conditions she is a great dog, she has to be introduced to new people and then becomes the soft as shite pup we know and love. A child (or adult) running up to her and scaring her would likely cause her to snap, it would definately cause her to bark and growl. She has fear aggression and separation anxiety.

She is soft enough to have been used by a friend to help his daughter get over her (unfounded) fear of dogs, in fact it probably helped as I was able to explain to the girl that mutt was as scared of her as she was of mutt.

If we are out in an unfamiliar place, or a place that has lots of people around then she wears a yellow ribbon to signify that she needs space.

If MuttDog snapped at a child that had approached her without warning, that had hurt her or had shoved their faces into hers then I would not be prosecuted and Mutt would not be killed. I have worked with the Dog Warden long enough to know this is true. Even unprovoked dogs that bite are not immediately PTS unless the owner requests it. I was bitten on the hip by a German Shep when assessing it for rescue/rehoming. The dog was not PTS and with many months of retraining and behaviourist intervention the dog was able to be rehomed with a suitable family and is now much loved.

Knee jerk reactions and absolute statements that are actually incorrect help no-one.

All dogs should be well trained, walking, recall, manners etc. All dog owners should be trained - your dog needs boundaries and has its own quirks and foibles that you should know and plan for. But all children (and adults) should be trained not to approach dogs you don't know.

midnitescribbler why oh why, interrupt a perfectly good argument by a sensible, reasoned post? grin
I really fail to see why this should be so contentious, it HAS to be a balanced approach, as both parties are to blame if a child is injured in the circumstances described by the OP. Of course, children should not run up to and "attack" a dog, but dogs should also be trained to cope with the circumstances if they arise.

There's a cd available for those who do want to teach their children to be safe around dogs (aimed at 3-6 year olds):

www.thebluedog.org/en/

Regardless of the argument about where the responsibility lies, the reality is that dogs and children will have to share space at times for the foreseeable future so the sensible thing to do would be to teach your child how to act around dogs.

melliebobs Sat 20-Jul-13 07:47:38

I've just seen this and yes they should. Its a 2 way thing. Yes train and control your dog but kids need telling too. Only commenting as just yesterday I was walking my loverly Patterdale who was struggling in the heat and just wanted to get home. He was on his lead but a kid and his dad were approaching m he was obviously a bit wary so I got poochs lea a bit tighter and stood at the far side of the path n let them go past. Kid kept his distance but as soon as he was past he started stamping his feet and barking at my dog blush luckily he was too shattered to care but any other day he'd give him a good yap back. No way to behave around adog. Dad couldn't care less either

I agree that children should be taught not to approach dogs without asking the owner, but dealing with the dogs that run up to them in parks etc is more of a problem. DS is afraid of them and no way is he able to stand quiet and still if one runs at or jumps up at him, which does happen quite a lot. I don't know much about dogs as I have no experience of living with them but I know if one runs at me my instinct is to back away, even if they are friendly I don't want muddy paw prints on my clothes.

singinggirl Sat 20-Jul-13 08:14:41

It has got to be a two way street, dog owners have a responsibility to train and control their dogs, parents have a responsibility to educate their children about dangers. I would have been very grateful if the parent who let his two year old hold my cocker spaniel's head and stick his thumbs in the dogs eyes (!) had stopped his son - my dog does not deserve that treatment. I was with him, he didn't snap. But I would not have entirely blamed him if he had.

My DSs have been taught to read a dogs cues - tails, growls etc. They have also been involved when we were training our current dog. Simple things like fussing a dog under it's chin or on it's chest are great - if you pat a dog on the head or the back they can't see what you are doing, so they are more nervous. If they can see your hand they know you are not attacking them.

Rootatoot Sat 20-Jul-13 08:35:47

I agree with midnight's earlier post. As a dog owner and a mum, I think we're all responsible for showing kids how to behave around dogs. I don't rely on parents to tell their kids how to behave around my dog. If they approach to pet my dog, I will make sure it is done in a way dog is ok with.

Some parents don't bother and are irresponsible, but actually many more parents just don't know the best way for their kids to interact with a dog, if they're not doggy people.

I've told kids running up to my dog to stop and that it is ok to pet him but they must always ask owner. Also shown them to stoke his side when he's calm not to wave hand in his face etc. Most parents are fine with this but I don't care if they weren't to be honest. I just like things safe for dog and child.

Yes of course kids need to be taught. My youngest was kicked in the head by a horse because he didn't listen to what I said (which was DO NOT GO NEAR THAT HORSE) - so it might take a while in the case of some children. Although ds3 does now listen to me when I say things like that.

As I always say on these threads if you have a child who is terrified of dogs it is worth teaching them not to run off screaming waving their arms in the air - because it makes life easier for them Ds2 was constantly chased by dogs when younger because of his reactions (they were friendly dogs - he was never in any danger). Had he just ignored the dogs they wouldn't have chased him. By the age of 8 people were not inviting him to their houses because his reaction to their friendly family dogs was so over the top. Anyway 3 years later he adores dogs, is very good with them - they seem to love him & the invitations to friend's houses are forthcoming again. So it is possible to deal with even extreme fear.

Dogs are everywhere in the UK & so yes teaching your child to behave around them & read their body language is sensible. The vast majority of dogs I have met have been friendly and if ignored will ignore you back.

See, I would never have thought about what Singinggirl said about patting their chest not their back, and have no idea about dog body language other than the very obvious growling etc. Stuff that seems completely obvious and second nature to dog owners just isn't to those of us who have never lived with them.

KittensoftPuppydog Sat 20-Jul-13 08:47:12

I am very happy for people to say hello to my dog, however a couple of times recently we have been in pub gardens and children have been left to poke and prod her for a really long time when their parents sit elsewhere.
She's an angel, but she's a dog too. Its just not sensible.

babyhmummy01 Sat 20-Jul-13 08:47:29

saintly that has been the point of most people on the thread buy apparently there are some serious dog haters who think their kids can do what they like and feel that its everyone else's responsibility to make sure they are safe.

Uncontrolled dogs off the lead are a bloody nightmare for everyone, but where dogs on leads are concerned it is the parent's responsibility to make sure their children are safe and under control

Oh yes I know baby - and on other threads as well. That's why I put the horse experience on here. Ds3 was incredibly lucky to not be seriously hurt (he flew through the air) but the fault was not with the horse. It was with him for not listening to me and me for assuming he had an understanding of why I had said that. I was standing very near him but with my back turned, when really I guess I should have been shadowing him.

babyhmummy01 Sat 20-Jul-13 09:03:05

Having been kicked by a horse I can understand the pain, and tbh horses are far more unpredictable than dogs IME. You sound far more responsible than some parents though and reasonable enough to acknowledge your child was at fault. More parents could do with seeing their kids are not blameless in incidents like that.

harryhausen Sat 20-Jul-13 09:07:29

My niece was mauled by a dog when she was 12. She needed surgery. Luckily no lasting damage.

She'd been at a sleepover with her friend. She's very dog aware and sensible. Her and her friend had been playing with this family dog all weekend. No problems. When she was leaving, she walked towards the dog and put her hand out to stroke the dog to say goodbye. He just went for her face. It was horrific.

They live abroad where there are no dangerous dog laws (it seems). The owners just shrugged it off. The dog is still with them, playing with the children.

I love dogs, but it makes me so angry when I come across owners who genuinely believe that their dogs would never hurt anyone without provocation.

Oh and yes, I'm sick of my children running an obstacle course of dog shit outside the school gates and in the park.

Lambsie Sat 20-Jul-13 09:08:18

My son doesn't have the understanding. I would never let him approach a dog but dog owners should not let their dogs sniff around him as he may well grab at them or if he is in his sn buggy, kick them. And if it is somewhere where dogs are supposed tobe on leads then keep them on a lead.

cantdecideonanewname Sat 20-Jul-13 09:09:29

I agree with you.

I have a dog which is very appealing to children because it kind of looks like a little bear. Two children came running up behind us and started touching my dog, I was annoyed with them, they did startle her and I told them not to ever touch a dog without asking the owners permission first, they looked really shocked so didn't appear to have been told this before, they were approx 7-8yo. My dog was on a lead walking by my side and under control, she's also not aggressive, yet I would of been held responsible if my dog had reacted badly to being scared by anyone, cause adult do this too.

To pick up the point Saintly makes about teaching your DCs to ignore them to avoid being chased, we try and tell DS to stand still, but if he does stand still they jump up and put their paws on him, which is what he was afraid of in the first place, it really isn't very easy to persuade him it's the right thing to do. We are trying but I do wish dogs didn't do it. As I have never owned a dog I don't know if I'm being unreasonable or not to be honest.

At least we don't have to teach him not to approach them though, no chance of that! Although I still say it anyway in case he changes his mind one day. I always think the owners must think I'm weird saying to a child who obviously has no desire to go anywhere near their dog to keep away from them.

babyhmummy01 Sat 20-Jul-13 09:18:45

whoknows the point being made here isn't about dogs charging about off the lead, its about dogs on leads and under control being approached by kids and adults.

I know and I have mentioned that, however that is only part of learning to behave round dogs. Just trying to make the point that for those of us who have never had dogs it isn't always as obvious or easy as it might seem to dog owners.

babyhmummy01 Sat 20-Jul-13 09:33:00

Without being rude, as parents its you who need to educate yourselves as well as your children. Most dog owners are responsible and will keep their dogs under control. A very small minority give us a bad name. But the fact remains that as parents it is your job to keep your kids under control and not deliberately put them in harms way by allowing them to behave inappropriately around animals

Lazyjaney Sat 20-Jul-13 09:45:58

Lazeyjaney, that would depend upon what the dog was doing at the time and whether you could prove it was "dangerously out of control" if your child walked over to my dog and deliberately hurt or intimidated him and was injured as a result of my dog defending himself, I could probably afford a decent enough solicitor to prove it was the child who was dangerously out of control and not the dog

If the dog bit my child in a public place you would be liable for prosecution. If the child needed stitches your dog could be put down. In all cases I can sue.

Outside of the reality distortion field of this thread, parents dont have to keep their kids on leashes in public places, the number of child attacks on dogs remains stubbornly at zero, (as do the number of dog deaths due to child attacks), and the law aims to protect children from dogs and their deluded owners, not the other way round

babyhmummy01 Sat 20-Jul-13 09:49:42

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Lazyjaney Sat 20-Jul-13 09:58:23

apparently it is our job to parent lazyjaney's child

There is no way on earth I would trust people who put the rights of dogs above those of children, to parent mine.

The pro dog arguments on this thread have a scary echo with pro gun lobby in the US.

Children don't kill and maim dogs. dogs do kill and maim children. That is all one needs to know about where the danger lies.

babyhmummy01 Sat 20-Jul-13 10:02:46

The danger lies with incompetent scare mongering idiots who chose to ignore the risks or take responsibility for their actions or those they are responsible for regardless of whether that is the dog owner or the parent.

And your statements are that it is the dog owner who is wholly responsible, you are responsible for your child deal with it

Does he lift his arms who knows? Ds2 used to sort of leap & raise his arms which would make the dogs all leapy then he used to run which was worse. But raising arms seems to say "play with me" to many dogs. He was every dog's best friend because of the way he acted even though he was terrified. I do know how hard it is. Really I needed to get to ds2 & down on his level with the dog but it wasn't always possible. In his case though the dog reactions were from his own behaviour - they were nice friendly dogs who would have completely ignored him had he ignored them. And it did escalate into a massive problem (if you count being not invited to friend's houses as a massive problem which I guess it is when you're 8). The good news though is that he did get over it, loves dogs now & has had to be taught not to assume all dogs want to be approached by him. So it can be fixed even when the fear is extreme.

Although I agree children need to learn dog safety, I see it as my control too. Children are unpredictable and not all will have good parents. Therefore, as a good owner, I should make sure that if I have a dog who would snap after being pulled at, shouted at etc; then I can stop the child from doing that, either by attempting to remove myself and the dog from the situation, attempting to get the child to go away, but as that's not often possible, by making sure my dog either has a muzzle if not a total softie, or by giving her treats or reassurance whilst trying to get out of the situation. If she snaps, it's partially the children's fault, but I blame myself for not controlling my dog, who is infinitely more dangerous than those children, by stopping her- whether making her feel better or avoiding it or by using protection, like a muzzle.

tabulahrasa Sat 20-Jul-13 10:07:17

Lazetjaney - do you honestly believe that if a child runs up to a dog on a lead and inserts its hand into the dog's mouth that the law will find the dog owner guilty if the dog bites down?

Donnadoon Sat 20-Jul-13 10:12:31

Tabula yep I think she thinks that, you are wasting your breath with that one.

harryhausen Sat 20-Jul-13 10:24:23

I agree with LazyJaney.

babyhmummy01 Sat 20-Jul-13 10:25:22

tabula as donna says she does think this. Myself and others have pointed out in that situation her and her child are at fault but she refuses to accept her parental responsibility. She has also failed to answer my question about her child hitting another and being hit back which says an awful lot IMO

harryhausen Sat 20-Jul-13 10:26:24

As I said before on this thread, my 12 yr old neice needed emergency facial surgery after a totally unprovoked attack from a friends 'totally placid' family dog.

harryhausen Sat 20-Jul-13 10:30:23

I know some people will find it almost impossible to believe it was unprovoked, but it was.

babyhmummy01 Sat 20-Jul-13 10:31:17

harry what happened to your niece is awful, but in reality is very rare. The owners of the dog should never have allowed so many kids around a dog, if they are overcrowded then natural instinct will kick in. Fight or flight exists in all living things

Lazyjaney Sat 20-Jul-13 10:31:52

do you honestly believe that if a child runs up to a dog on a lead and inserts its hand into the dog's mouth that the law will find the dog owner guilty if the dog bites down?

Bollocks, if the child was injured the dog owner would be on a hiding to nothing, and you know it

Or at least I hope you do....if not, then I think you are going to get a rude awakening one day.

May come as a shock to those of you in the reality distortion field that is this thread, but there are no Dangerous Children Acts, and the newspapers by and large are not reporting on the rapid rise of children biting dogs.

babyhmummy01 Sat 20-Jul-13 10:35:43

No they wouldn't lazyjaney you seem to be ignoring the fact that your child is your problem

Xihha Sat 20-Jul-13 10:42:31

Lazyjaney, it is your job to look after your children and the law will not stop them getting hurt, the dog owner getting into trouble after your child has provoked an attack will not magically make them better wll it?

Do you also teach your children not to look both ways at the traffic lights because its the law that cars stop so it would be the drivers fault if your child got run over?

singinggirl Sat 20-Jul-13 10:43:28

The point was about dogs under control and on a lead though. I do not leave my dog with other peoples' children. But parents must take some responsibility for controlling young children around dogs on leads. A couple of years ago (I think) I started a thread on here whilst quite upset about being sworn at by a mother because her child bounded over and stroked my dog. At the time he was on a lead and walking to heel as I took my DSs to school. He didn't snap, growl or react to her child in any way. He clearly did nothing wrong.

Despite this, she clearly felt it her right to swear at me for walking my dog near a nursery. I live just along the road, and the zebra crossing is beyond the nursery! Yet apparently it is all my fault, not hers, that her daughter was not under control and touched my dog without asking. If she was so worried (as she should be about her daughter fussing animals without checking first) then she should be teaching or controlling her child, as I have taught and controlled my dog.

MidniteScribbler Sat 20-Jul-13 10:44:19

Lazeyjaney, if your child runs up to my dogs, it won't be the dogs you have to worry about. My bark is a lot worse than their bite.

babyhmummy01 Sat 20-Jul-13 10:51:20

Mine too midnite and has been.on several occasions lately with idiot adukts

crashdoll Sat 20-Jul-13 10:53:27

Arf at not wanting a random child to run up to and grab my dog making me the same as pro gun grin

My dog looks like a cross between a lamb and a teddy bear. He is small and very friendly and children adore him. Fortunately, he adores children back and he's super gentle. When he went to puppy school, we were taught to touch our dogs all over to get them used it, especially gently holding their tails so they would not be shocked if someone did that to them.

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't extremely anxious when a random child runs up to my dog and tries to pick him up or yank his ears. He'd just roll over but so many dogs would not and as much as I do trust him, he's an animal and I'd never be 100%. If I see a child approaching, I will bring him closer to me and speak to the child first. I owe it to my dog and to the child. As much as I adore my dog, I know the value of a child too, so I do everything in my power to prevent an incident.

I do wish parents would teach their children how to approach and stroke animals. It doesn't take away from my responsibility as a dog owner. I know what I need to do, some parents seemingly do not. A mother laughed as her child yesterday tried to grab my dog and pick him up at the vets! shock He was already anxious and whingeing and sore from his injury. I showed the very sweet little girl how to approach animals and she was lovely and gentle. The bottom line is I would have been responsible if my dog had attacked that little girl. That's scary!

EricNorthmanIsMyMaker Sat 20-Jul-13 10:56:28

When my dog was a few months old (& being walked under control on a short lead) a toddler came from nowhere, arms waving & flung himself at the dog. I then had to spend the next couple of years being pulled to cross roads & go out of my way so she could avoid blond toddlers/young boys. The kid terrified her. She didn't react at the time as she is a good natured dog but thanks to that 'out of control' child I had to cope with A scared dog. Now I've got 2 blondish boys of my own she has got over it thankfully.

ComposHat Sat 20-Jul-13 11:06:55

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babyhmummy01 Sat 20-Jul-13 11:14:12

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FreyaSnow Sat 20-Jul-13 11:35:52

To summarise why it is a good idea to teach your child how to behave around dogs:

1. It makes them safer. When US elelementary schools in one district taught all young children how to behave around dogs, the incidence of dog bites fell.

2. Empathising with animals and treating them with compassion is an important part of children's moral development.

3. Knowing how to behave around animals is an essential life skill that increases confidence.

4. It teaches tolerance, as it helps children understand that many people participate in a wide variety of hobbies that benefit them but create a small risk and inconvenience to others, and that is part of using shared social spaces.

Lazyjaney Sat 20-Jul-13 11:50:03

Arf at not wanting a random child to run up to and grab my dog making me the same as pro gun

What people on this thread are in essence proposing is that they want to take a thing that is known to injure, maim and kill children into a public space, and that the very children who are most at risk must be trained to handle them and their dangerous possession, not the other way round.

Outside of the reality distortion field of the posters on here it is clearly an absurd argument, and pretty much amounts to the same logic bypass of the pro Gun lobby.

The main difference is that in the UK the law is on the side of the injured child, always and unequivocally.

To give you your due Crashdoll, you do understand where the ultimate responsibility lies, unlike most people on here, who seem to want to bury their heads in the dogshit sand and attack the messenger

MidniteScribbler Sat 20-Jul-13 12:06:02

So lazeyjaney, to use your ridiculous gun analogy, would you allow your child to run up to someone who hand a gun in their hand? If you are so sure that every on lead dogis just plotting to take a bite out of your child, why do you let your child go near them?

KittensoftPuppydog Sat 20-Jul-13 12:09:01

Lazy Janet, are you really saying that children never injure dogs?
That's rubbish, as you must realise.

KittensoftPuppydog Sat 20-Jul-13 12:11:33

Just in my own experience I know someone whose little boy bit a cat's ear off.

Donnadoon Sat 20-Jul-13 12:13:26

Lazyjaney Did you know that cars kill maim and injure children? Every day? I bet you still drive/travel in one though don't you? You are clearly just a dog hater, and that makes me sad sad

tabulahrasa Sat 20-Jul-13 12:13:55

'What people on this thread are in essence proposing is that they want to take a thing that is known to injure, maim and kill children into a public space, and that the very children who are most at risk must be trained to handle them and their dangerous possession, not the other way round.'

So a bit like expecting parents to teach their children road safety then?

KittensoftPuppydog Sat 20-Jul-13 12:14:40

Adult human being kill more kids than dogs.

KittensoftPuppydog Sat 20-Jul-13 12:16:21

Animals have a right to live on this planet too. We are much more destructive and dangerous than any animal.

topknob Sat 20-Jul-13 12:19:08

Not read all yet but lazyjane, a dog on a lead is considered under control !

DiseasesOfTheSheep Sat 20-Jul-13 12:23:56

If a dog is under control, has no past history of aggression and is being handled by someone who is keeping it well away from people in as far as is possible, and some out of control child comes running up to a dog and assaults it, I definitely feel there is culpability with parent. Just as, if a loose dog chases a horse and gets kicked for it, the responsibility lies with the owner of the dog, not the horse.

That said, with aggresssive dogs, or those who react disproportionately to "normal" situations, the onus is on the dog owner to take steps to muzzle, and potentially avoid times and places where they are likely to meet children.

Saintly - he probably does lift his arms, I do too. See, I just don't know this stuff either and I am genuinely interested because no one in my family has dogs. I have never been taught anything other than the basics myself. I know enough to stop them stroking other people's dogs, without permission and that is about it. To be honest, it's never been that big a problem. DS isn't so scared that he can't be around dogs at all, PILs have one and he is fine around him.

LackingEnergy Sat 20-Jul-13 12:38:21

Sorry I'm 100% with Shelly. If the dog attacked, you'd seriously blame the child or parents?

Yep I'd place the entire blame on the parent if the dog was on a lead/under control. That doesn't mean I won't give the child a serious telling off before you get to us not will it mean I won't give you a piece of my mind re your negligence. I will however feel sorry for the child with a parent like you...

As a parent it is your responsibility to teach your child how to behave in public if you can't manage that simple task don't take them out, same with dogs

you let your child run up to an unknown entity and harass it. Dogs are not robots, they have feelings and do react to stimuli. Most of the stories in the papers re dog 'attacks' are the fault of the parent/child/people not understanding basic dog body language/lack of dog-human socialization and for the most part were completely avoidable

If you give the owner fair warning before asking if your child can interact with their dog they can put the dog in a safer position (eg, sit, stay) and show your child, with your help, where to stoke and how to do it gently instead of running up and launching themselves at the dog before heavily 'patting'/pulling at the dog Or they can say no your child can't stroke him as - he's old/recovering from injury/scared of children ect or just plain no smile

My dog doesn't have a tail so I can't use that to tell how he is feeling

bit of a disadvantage

Lazyjaney Sat 20-Jul-13 12:43:39

Not read all yet but lazyjane, a dog on a lead is considered under control

Until it injures a child. A lead is not a muzzle.

Some of you have a very serious reality bypass when it comes to knowing who carries the can for you or your property injuring or causing damage to other people.

And you will never, ever, ever win a "he hurt my dog first" argument against a furious parent with an injured child. Don't even try to go there.

MidniteScribbler Sat 20-Jul-13 12:47:28

This is where the phrase "never argue with a fool..." begins so easy to understand.

tabulahrasa Sat 20-Jul-13 12:48:29

WhoKnowsWhereTheTimeGoes - if you've got a friendly dog barreling at you to jump up and say hello, ideally want he wants to do is not make any noise, fold his arms stand still and don't look at it...if he's also big enough to turn side on if it carries on then that will usually stop him being bounced on.

But of course people shouldn't actually be letting dogs do that, unfortunately the minority of dog owners that do let their dogs do that are the ones people notice, those of us walking quietly by with a dog just wouldn't be remembered.

wonderingsoul Sat 20-Jul-13 12:49:50

ynbu.
my children are are taught not to touch a strangers or infact any dog with out the owner permision.

its common sence is it not?

LtEveDallas Sat 20-Jul-13 12:51:15

Lazyjaney: If the dog bit my child in a public place you would be liable for prosecution. If the child needed stitches your dog could be put down. In all cases I can sue

I am telling you now, you are 100% wrong in the situations that have been described here. If a dog is under control which simply means on a lead and the child or adult that is bitten has provoked said dog the owner will not be prosecuted and the dog will not be destroyed.

An owner can choose to have a dog PTS in those circumstances, but cannot be forced to.

I suggest you don't let your child(ren) approach any dog you don't know, because you are woefully ignorant where the law is concerned.

KittensoftPuppydog Sat 20-Jul-13 12:53:52

Lazeyjaney, you just hate dogs, and that's a shame for you and your children.
There are far more pressing dangers to children in this world and the fact that you are focussing on this is a bit disturbing.

Thanks Tabulahrasa and others who have offered sensible advice.

34DD Sat 20-Jul-13 13:15:06

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

cathpip Sat 20-Jul-13 13:23:10

Always always ask the owner before you pat a dog esp if its on a lead and under control. Lets put it this way would you like some random stranger walk up to you and start irritating and prodding you or would you tell them to f**k off, I know what I would do. I will let anyone who has asked pat my two dogs, they are very child friendly, but if they don't ask they get told no and why.....

D0oinMeCleanin Sat 20-Jul-13 14:26:22

LazyJane, you have completely utterly misunderstood the DDA (1991)

Section 3.1 refers to "dangerous dogs" in public places, I think this is the section you keep bleating on about. It reads:

^If a dog is dangerously out of control in a public place—
(a) the owner; and
(b) if different, the person for the time being in charge of the dog, is guilty of an offence, or, if the dog while so out of control injures any person, an aggravated offence, under this subsection^ (House of Commons Library, 2013 <online>)

So to try and explain it more clearly, prosecution can only occur if the dog is dangerously out of control at the time the injury occurred <with me so far?> A dog on a lead, by default, is not dangerously out of control, but lets assume that you don't believe this to be the case, which I am sure you won't, I will pretend that dogs on leads are not automatically assumed to be under control and try and explain the law for you in a way you should understand.

A dog, on a lead, walking to heel, by his owner's side, is the very definition of a controlled dog. If a child should happen across that dog and decide to run up and whack it on the head with a stick and the dog reacts like a dog and snaps at the child causing minor injury, it will not be assumed that dog (still on a lead, still by his owner's side) was dangerously out of control. There is not a single canine behavior expert in the whole entire world, who would state that the dog in that instance was out of control. The reason for this being that if the child had not approached the dog without permission and had not caused it pain, the dog would not have reacted. The child and the parent who allowed the child to act that way, were the ones who instigated the incident, therefore it was the child and parent who were out of control, not the dog.

In other words, it is your responsibility to control your child. It is not up to the dog owner to prevent your child causing their dog pain or fear, it is up to you.

It's also worth bearing in mind that in the eyes of the law, dogs are property, much like mobile phones. If your child runs up to me and snatches my phone out of my hand and proceeds to willfully damage my property I can sue you for damages. Equally if your child runs up to my dog and causes injury to my property that requires veterinary care, I can sue you for damages. Vet care is not cheap.

babyhmummy01 Sat 20-Jul-13 14:48:18

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D0oinMeCleanin Sat 20-Jul-13 15:02:11

I don't actually believe that LazyJane, herself, believes the shit she is posting, I believe that either she posted in a knee jerk, without thinking and is now not mature enough to hold her hands up and say "you know, what, you're right. I never thought about it like that. It is my responsibility to control my own child" or she was and still is trolling for the sake of right from the start.

What is more worrying is usually reasonable and supposedly educated posters are coming along and posting "I agree with LazyJane" Really? hmm Have you actually read her posts? You honestly believe it is up to the dog owner to prevent your child from causing their dog pain or fear? You honestly believe that if your child does cause their dog pain and they fail to stop your child in time resulting in the dog defending itself, like a normal dog would, that is the fault of dog owner, for not controlling your child properly? confused

babyhmummy01 Sat 20-Jul-13 15:05:06

I hope your are right but I fear it could be all 3 combined

BMW6 Sat 20-Jul-13 15:05:15

Well, fifty odd years ago I was taught by my Parents
1. never pull a dog's tail - it will hurt them and they may well bite you, in which case it's your own fault (applies to cats too)
2. Never pet a dog you do not know without asking the owner if the dog is friendly
3. Be wary of dogs loose walking the street. If one runs at you DO NOT RUN

Of course dogs should be under owners control, but of course children should be taught how to interact with other living creatures that they will come across - dogs are pretty much everywhere!!

BMW6 Sat 20-Jul-13 15:05:51

oh, and of course, Let sleeping dogs lie

MrButtercat Sat 20-Jul-13 15:05:53

We utterly loath and detest dogs.In the past year my son has been bitten by a neighbours dog,2 children have been knocked over by an off the lead dog who chased them and I was attacked last weekend(thankfully the beach bag it bit 5 times wasn't my ankle).Mil still as scars from a bite when delivering parish news and my mother has a ripped coat from going out on a walk,ditto great aunt.

All times we never approached.

Makes me livid that people actually think dogs should have precedence and kids should be trained around them.My kids hate dogs- end off. If anybody needs training it's dog owners who need to keep their dogs away from other people and out of their space at all times.

The law needs tightening.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 20-Jul-13 15:07:39

Your family is awfully unfortunate MrButtercat

Nobody in my immediate family has ever been bitten,chased or attacked by a dog. Maybe because we know how to behave around them?

babyhmummy01 Sat 20-Jul-13 15:08:40

mrbuttercat read the thread, you have completely misunderstood everything that has been posted. Everyone has condemned those sorts of owners and dogs. What we are talking about is dogs on a lead and under control being approached by out of control kids

D0oinMeCleanin Sat 20-Jul-13 15:11:59

<<shoots self>>

I despair, I really, really do.

NO-ONE has said that dogs should not be kept under control. Not a single, solitary poster has actually posted "My dog can do what it likes, that's my right" No-one. At all. Ever. On this thread, has said that dogs should not be controlled. No-one has posted that dogs have more right to enjoy outside space than children do. No-one.

What is being discussed is the rights or wrongs of allowing your child to approach a controlled and leashed dog, without the owner's permission and then expecting the owner, who did not ask for or want your child in his personal space, to take responsibility for your child's safety and behavior.

Lazyjaney Sat 20-Jul-13 15:13:09

^^
"it is an offence to allow any dog to attack or cause serious injury to a person or livestock" is the relevant bit of the law you are looking for.

Control is a possible mitigating factor.

Of course, you are welcome to put it to the test this afternoon to convince yourself. Just be sure to look up the penalties first.....

BTW LtEve I suggest you update yourself on Texas law, it's no longer one of the few remaining One Bite states in the US.

MrButtercat Sat 20-Jul-13 15:19:49

Soooo Alis it's our fault.hmm

Says it all.

MrButtercat Sat 20-Jul-13 15:20:53

Oh the 2 that bit me and DS were on a lead,we simply walked past.

D0oinMeCleanin Sat 20-Jul-13 15:22:15

Which act is that from LazyJaney?

Or have you simply C&P'd it from here because that is not the actual law itself. It is merely a summarised version, subject to interpretation of the author.

The actual law, as written by parliament, regarding dangerous dogs is the one I posted.

Donnadoon Sat 20-Jul-13 15:23:12

Oh lazyjaney just agree that you'll keep your out of control and or uneducated goady children out of my dogs face (who is under control) and everyone's happy yeah?

Donnadoon Sat 20-Jul-13 15:23:42

Don't believe you mrbuttercat sorry

D0oinMeCleanin Sat 20-Jul-13 15:24:53

Also livestock and people are protected from dogs under different Acts, not one and the same.

BMW6 Sat 20-Jul-13 15:32:04

This is all getting rather silly.

Surely a responsible parent teaches their DC about the dangers that are everywhere in their nearby world i.e

DO NOT play with matches
DO NOT stick anything in the plug sockets
DO NOT get into a car with a stranger
etc etc

It is a given that dogs should be under the owners control - noone is arguing against that!

Dogs and cats are part of our everyday world and can cause injury and even death, just as can electricity, gas, fire, humans.

A little girl (approx 10) who lives nearby keeps asking to hold my dog's lead. I say no, he's strong (but small) and may pull you over/ pull the lead out of your hand (esp if he sees a cat).
The other night she grabbed the lead and before I could say Let Go he pulled and she complained of "rope" burn.

She didn't cry, she wasn't seriously injured, and I said well, I have told you not to grab his lead!

IMO SHE was in the wrong, not my dog, not me.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 20-Jul-13 15:42:31

Mrbutter

Might have been your fault,might not, having not been there I couldn't say. But people who are frightened of dogs tend to have more trouble with them. Perhaps because fear clouds normal thinking. Like me with spiders.

Anyway the thread is about dogs on leads being approached incorrectly by children - not sure how what you describe is relevant.

crashdoll Sat 20-Jul-13 15:42:34

"Makes me livid that people actually think dogs should have precedence and kids should be trained around them."

That is not what we are saying. confused You should teach your children not to approach a random dog to protect your child. It doesn't take away the fact that responsibility lies with the dog owner. As you've seen, you cannot rely on dog owners to ensure their dogs are safe, so why the hell would you not teach your children animal safety?!

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 20-Jul-13 15:43:51

I don't believe you were simply walking by. I've seen snarly dogs on leads many a time - still didn't randomly bite anybody walking by.

LtEveDallas Sat 20-Jul-13 15:55:22

Lazyjane, why on earth should I update myself on Texas Law? I live in Oxford. I am full acquainted with UK law, and the majority of people posting on this thread are in the UK.

tabulahrasa Sat 20-Jul-13 15:59:24

People should be able to walk without being molested by dogs, friendly or otherwise...

But children still need to be educated on how to approach dogs if that's what they want to do and a bit of training on how to act when a dog approaches them wouldn't go amiss.

That doesn't lessen any responsibility of the dog owner to keep their dog under control, it just makes it easier for everybody.

Snugglepiggy Sat 20-Jul-13 16:02:06

Agree it should be a two way street but sadly some people just don't want to see it see it that way.
The vast majority of dog owners are sensible and responsible and appreciate not everyone is as dog friendly.Just as the vast majority of parents are sensible and responsible,and even if they don't especially like dogs raise their children to not be irrationally fearful of them and teach them them not to provoke them.OPs post was about a well behaved under control dog but some posters just don't want to acknowledge that's ever the case.
And MrBuutercat how sad to loathe and detest any living creature as a generalisation IMO.I too was bitten as a child but went on to own a dog all my adult life .I also have grown children and I proud of their tolerant and nonjudgmental attitude towards both people and animals.Some humans cause untold and unprovoked damage to others.Some people children are badly behaved and out of control.Fact.Do you loathe and detest them too?

Xihha Sat 20-Jul-13 16:03:20

hmm Mr Buttercat, your family seems to be remarkably unlucky round dogs, especially since you detest them and I would assume dont deliberately go out seeking dogs.

My parents have had lots of dogs at a time since I was born and still do, most of them have been rescue dogs, we have also always looked after/walked other peoples dogs for them, I'm one of 8 children and have 2 kids of my own who are also always round dogs.

Between all of us there has only ever been 2 incidents,

I got bitten on the finger when i was about 7 coz I was being a stupid little brat and ran up to stroke a dog i didn't know in the park whilst i had a chocolate bar in one hand and he nipped my finger trying to pinch the chocolate, which is completely my own fault for putting myself in that situation

The other was when my daughter got knocked over when she was about 2, however as she had been trying to climb on the dogs back shouting pony at the time I'm not sure the dog meant to knock her over.

Lazyjane, I was walking my parents mastiff / golden retriever cross about 2 years ago. He was on a lead walking to heel.

A child of about 6 ran over and poked the dog in the eye with a stick. It was an unprovoked attack by a vicious little shit. The dog needed surgery and is now blind in one eye. My parents successfully sued the parents for the cost of the vets bills. The said little shit is very lucky I didn't go with my first instinct which was to let the dog have a go at him because quite frankly he deserved it.

So to be blunt, and just in case you missed the point, fuck off with you no dog has been injured by a child bollocks.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 20-Jul-13 16:09:46

glen

That is awful! Poor dog! Good for your parents though!

MrButtercat Sat 20-Jul-13 16:11:03

Donna you not believing me is exactly the point,it's all the fault of others not dogs. Incidentally it's all on my son's medical records at A and E and we had loads of witnesses last weekend.2 lovely ones rushed up to check up on me.

When my DS had his tonsils out a boy was rushed in for reconstructive surgery after his springer just turned on him.Mother in shock as child did nothing to provoke.Dogs can and do turn nasty and laws need to be tightened.Attitudes on this thread illustrate exactly why.Owner arrogance.

Xihha Sat 20-Jul-13 16:13:13

glenthebattleostrich That's terrible, poor dog, I hope the spiteful little shit got in a fuck load of trouble from his parents!

harryhausen Sat 20-Jul-13 16:15:44

I believe you MrButtercat. As I said before, the same thing happened to my niece. Totally unprovoked. An earlier person seemed to think the dog had been surrounded by children so was scared. Not so. She'd been staying at her friends house for the weekend. 12 years old, not stupid or silly. She'd been playing, running happily with the dog all weekend. She went calmly to the dog to say goodbye when leaving, crouched down and held out her hand. He just went for her face. She very nearly lost her eye.

I know most dog owners, would equally think this was awful - however the owners still have the dog, have children around it and think its really placid.

MrButtercat Sat 20-Jul-13 16:17:07

Thank you Harry

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 20-Jul-13 16:17:38

Mrbuttercat

I own a dog and am not arrogant about it. I err on the side of caution and assume people do not like her so have trained her accordingly. I'd be beside myself in horror if she ever attacked anybody,adult or child.

Your wild generalisations are just that though.

piprabbit Sat 20-Jul-13 16:18:18

I tell my children not to approach strange dogs as they can't trust the dog or the owner.

MrButtercat Sat 20-Jul-13 16:20:44

Well the amount of owners who just let their dogs slobber over my kids or jump up at them saying "don't worry he's friendly" are huge so I'll generalise as much as I like thanks.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 20-Jul-13 16:23:34

That's an enlightened view you have there hmm

I've never met anybody who does that. You really are most unfortunate.

D0oinMeCleanin Sat 20-Jul-13 16:24:47

I can honestly say I have never been jumped on by a strange dog unless I have had my own dogs with me and been in the very near vacinity to off lead dogs while waving tennis balls and liver cake around.

Do you carry a lot of liver cake in your pockets MrButtercat? Or walk around randomly waving tennis balls in the air? If so I suspect that might be the problem.

I never get jumped on when I am simply minding my own business. It's always my food or tennis balls the dogs want, not me sad

olidusUrsus Sat 20-Jul-13 16:26:28

While I don't doubt the stories from harry & butter, I think it's important to remember that not being able to read and react appropriately to dog behaviour and unintentionally threatening or upsetting a dog is not the same as an unprovoked attack.

wharrgarbl Sat 20-Jul-13 16:26:45

Attitudes on this thread illustrate exactly why.Owner arrogance.

Nope. No dogs here. Just two very slothful hot cats (inside cats for anyone about go off about cats shitting in gardens, btw).

He's fine, more spoilt than before to be honest. My parents wanted to hurt the family in the only way they could after their baby boy was hurt (yep that is what they refer to him as smile)

Unfortunately the parents of the child still think sunshine is produced from his nether regions, although he does avoid my dad like the plague now. They had the nerve to complain to a friend of our family that they were having to pay the vets bills.

crashdoll Sat 20-Jul-13 16:29:29

Christ on a bike! No one is saying that some dogs attack unprovoked and that some owners are complete twats.

piprabbit Sat 20-Jul-13 16:29:46

My DCs have both had strange dogs jump up around them. The dogs were probably just feeling jolly and happy, but were as tall as the children who found it upsetting.

On more than one occasion the owner has said "Oh, my dog's just friendly", to which the only sensible reply is "and my child is terrified" while picking them up out of the reach of a mouth full of teeth and slobber.

And no - we don't go for walk with food or tennis balls - why would we?

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 20-Jul-13 16:30:21

pip that's fair enough. It's true too. At the end of the day the owner of a strange dog is also a stranger and children are usually discouraged to approach them. A dog on a lead doesn't make a stranger any less so.

I've had children approach and ask if they can stroke her. Usually I say yes but don't put your face by hers. It's because she'll lick their face. It's something I hate myself and she's my dog so wouldn't expect a child or their parents to love it either.

Lazyjaney Sat 20-Jul-13 16:33:14

Wilfull dog owner ignorance as well as arrogance if this thread is any measure.

That all these people on here can actually believe that if their dog attacked, bit and injured a child that the child is the guilty party, and their dog and they are the injured, innocent parties, and that a dog being on a leash gives them a get out of jail free card, is quite scary.

To repeat. A dog attack, even the potential of a dog attack, in a public space is an offence in the UK. That is not a negotiable because your dog (according to you) is luffly and harmless, it is the law, and all your selective misreading of that law won't help you if it happens. Nor will claiming you had "control" on a lead - the attack makes it manifestly clear you did not. It can only (possibly) mitigate the penalty.

The current laws in draft are aiming to tighten this up further, and extend the offence into private spaces as well. The attitudes on this thread are a combination of old doggerel, wishful thinking and dangerous arrogance.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 20-Jul-13 16:34:58

*usually as in, sometimes I will say no. If she is very excitable, jumping around, yapping for me to throw her ball, I will say no. Not flat out just "usually it's fine to pet her but she's a bit excited at the moment sorry".

My dog is tiny in the great scheme of things but then, so are children. And the above situation is not a good time for them to mix.

justanuthermanicmumsday Sat 20-Jul-13 16:36:47

I may get blasted here but i think its largely up to the owner to control the dog in public. It's their pet and they choose to have it in public. Since it is an animal no matter how well trained it may decide to follow its own natural instincts against the owners calls to stop.

yes parents should give their kids a pep talk. But vey small kids will forget unless the pep talk is given every time they leave the house i.e i have a 2.5 year old she wouldn't remember, but the 6 year old should in theory although i remind them . I don't do it constantly though because the danger is i could instill a fear of dogs in them. My husband is scared of dogs i don't want my kids being like this.

I think its stupid that in council parks that are huge they don't divide it up so there are areas for dog walkers only and families and kds only. Here in edinburgh you get beautiful large parks even in the deprived areas yet not attempts are made to divide the park up to make it more friendly and safe, its not exactly expensive to do either. T be honest I'm more worries about my kid falling in dog poo and getting it in the eyes.

Lazyjaney Sat 20-Jul-13 16:37:21

Lazyjane, why on earth should I update myself on Texas Law? I live in Oxford. I am full acquainted with UK law, and the majority of people posting on this thread are in the UK

My apologies, I thought Dallas implied Texas, i was being charitable as you clearly do not know UK law. If you are in Oxford, I suggest you acquaint yourself with it.

DiseasesOfTheSheep Sat 20-Jul-13 16:39:09

Unprovoked dog attacks are actually very rare, so you've clearly been very unlucky, MrButtercat. I'm not sure why you feel the law needs tightening - if, as you say, these dogs attacked you unprovoked and caused damage requiring medical attention, and you have witnesses, you are certainly in a position to pursue the issue under the DDA. If these dogs actually attacked you without provocation, it is likely that they will be destroyed.

I have never, in all my years of training and working dogs, seen an unprovoked attack on a human. I have, however, seen many very tolerant dogs ragged around by children without complaint. I do know some owners who do not take proper measures to keep their animals under control, and allow them to approach other people, which is clearly unacceptable. The majority of owners I know take better precautions. You can generalise all you like, but the plural of anecdotes is not data and you have to appreciate that your perspective is skewed by the fact that negative incidents stick in the mind better. If my dog were to be in the vicinity of you, you probably wouldn't even notice him, as he wouldn't be remotely interested in interacting with you. He would be completely under your radar, so to speak.

This is not owner arrogance, it's experience. I know how my dog wll react to most normal situations, and I know his training will over-ride his instinct. I know this because I can call him off livestock with one word, and I've tested that many, many times. I'm also confident if he were attacked while on a lead by a child that he would not respond - but I don't wish to find out, and I firmly believe that the child's parents are responsible for ensuring that this is not put to the test.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 20-Jul-13 16:45:53

I agree with you justanother.

How my dog behaves is my responsibility, I chose to have so she should be (is) trained to behave appropriately in public. I have met twatty owners with badly trained dogs. Often see a man who seems to revel in the fact his Labrador is very aggressive. It is. He lets the dog off it's lead . He doesn't use the excuse "oh he's just being friendly" when social incidents happen he says "you should have kept your dog/self away then". Given I live in a area highly populated by the much demonised Staffordshire bull terrier breed people are surprised when I say the most aggressive dog I've come across is a Labrador.

Also, apologies MrButtercat I was incorrect in my assertion I'd not met any awful dog owners. If you'd met this guy and his dog or similar types I can well see why you have a dim view of dogs and their owners.

I think the separate areas in parks are a great idea to be honest.

tabulahrasa Sat 20-Jul-13 16:56:30

'I may get blasted here but i think its largely up to the owner to control the dog in public. It's their pet and they choose to have it in public. Since it is an animal no matter how well trained it may decide to follow its own natural instincts against the owners calls to stop.'

No, that's not being disputed at all, it is my responsibility as a dog owner to ensure that he doesn't harass anybody - but me, lol. Like I said earlier I have him on the lead if I'm anywhere where I would expect people to be or if I can see people. If I'm on a pavement I will either make sure he's not within reach of people passing by (because he's a random licker)or if there's a lack of room I'll move onto the road.

All of that doesn't stop children running up and behaving inappropriately to him - that's what I'm talking about by educating children, don't run up and hug a strange dog, don't wave a stick 3 inches in front of his face and then complain when he grabs it, don't walk up to him and bark in his face because while my dog thinks that's all very entertaining his idea of playing is still too bouncy for most children and even if he doesn't accidentally knock them over - the next dog they try it with might not be so impressed.

LazeyJaney - no-one except you is talking about dog attacks, of course the child is not guilty if a dog attacks it...do you actually understand the meaning of the word attack? Because that is not what's being discussed.

D0 I'm the same - never been jumped on by strange dogs, although the ones that know me in the park might run up and leap over me.

DS2 was repeatedly approached and jumped on by strange dogs, but his fear was making him do things that meant he drew attention to himself & made him interesting to dogs.

I don't allow children to stroke my dog when he's on a lead. He's had a lot of ear problems in the past and gets noticeably stressed when children he doesn't know are in his space.

olidusUrsus Sat 20-Jul-13 17:11:27

I may get blasted here but i think its largely up to the owner to control the dog in public

I think pretty much everyone here is saying that, with the additional comment of that they would appreciate children being taught not to run up and disturb a dog they see without asking - for the child's safety.

LtEveDallas Sat 20-Jul-13 17:11:28

It's one of my jobs lazyjaney, so actually I know a damn sight more than you. You are making yourself sound foolish now. Just because you want to be right doesn't make you right mate, it makes you dangerous.

I work on a voluntary basis at a local rescue and my main task is to work in conjunction with the Dog Warden and Community Police Officer to capture, remove and round up strays and dogs that have bitten or threatened to bite. We have rescued, rehabilitated and rehomed a number of so called 'dangerous' dogs over the years.

Dangerous dogs that attack ie those not under control are a different kettle of fish, but controlled dogs who have been provoked and dogs who have bitten family members that do not want the dog PTS use our services. Everything we do is to the letter of the law, so trust me, I'm not the one that needs educating here.

babyhmummy01 Sat 20-Jul-13 22:16:36

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LtEveDallas Sat 20-Jul-13 22:20:14

I don't actually think she has young kids babyH. I think she's just being a Goady arse. Whatever flicks her switches huh.

ReindeerBollocks Sat 20-Jul-13 22:29:17

We live and walk through a park daily (to get to school) and deal with dogs. I have children who are extremely scared of dogs. One will stroke/pat if the owner indicates that it is ok. The other flaps about a bit and tries to run in the other direction from any dog.

What other ways can I teach them to be sensible about dogs? Genuine question as I'm not a huge fan myself, but want my children to approach dogs in a safe manner, especially as we pass dogs on such a regular basis.

The children know not to touch any dogs unless invited to do so, but I'm worried their scared reaction would sometimes be a trigger for sensitive dogs?

babyhmummy01 Sat 20-Jul-13 22:47:04

Very true * Dallas*

reindeer the best advice I can give you is as follows;
If the dog is on a lead, teach them to stand away and ask the owner if its ok to pet the dog then wait til they are told its safe, most owners will turn the dogs head away to prevent any chance of accidental teeth contact.
Teach them to stroke in the direction of the fur and to speak quietly and softly so as not to startle, dogs pick up on tone of voice so confidence is key.

If its off the lead, stand still, fold arms and turn sideways. Do not make eye contact and if the dog bounces they need to firmly and calmly say 'down' and most dogs will then calm down.

Unfortunately trying to get away and getting in a flap with arms is a sign to the dog to play.

My dog and others I know will also respond to 'no' or a hand held out flat above their head as a sign not to jump.

babyhmummy01 Sat 20-Jul-13 22:50:22

Do you have any friends with dogs reindeer? It might be an idea to gentle introduce your kids if you do, let them see there is.nothing to be frightened of if they treat the dog with respect, may help the one who flaps

Xihha Sat 20-Jul-13 22:50:26

ReindeerBollocks, do you have any friends/relatives who have nice dogs your children could meet to get them a bit more used to dogs?

The child who flaps about a bit is basically saying to any playful dog thats close by 'oooh look at me, chase me' so you need to try and teach them to just stand still or ignore the dog then most dogs will ignore them, I don't know how old your kids are but as you said about walking to school I'm guessing they are old enough to understand if you explain?

The most important bit imo is not touching dogs without checking with the owner, which you've already done.

Other than that just explain to them dogs don't like things shoved in their faces or sudden movements/loud noises and that if they are going to stroke a dog they should always hold their hand out, below the dogs nose level so the dog can sniff them first. The rest of it is just common sense like don't poke them with a stick or pull their hair etc or wave food around in front of a dog.

ReindeerBollocks Sat 20-Jul-13 22:58:12

Thanks for the advice. My DC don't approach dogs they don't know but I was concerned about the child who makes a fuss about keeping away.

Don't have friends with dogs but will implement advice on keeping calm and making sure they don't flap around them. Have been curious about this for a while (should have asked in the doghouse sooner!).

DC are old enough to understand such tasks but might try chatting with a school mum with a dog, to see if they can teach us properly how to interact.

Have taken all advice on board though so thank you.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 20-Jul-13 22:59:28

Reindeer

In the case of your more frightened DC,try to encourage him/her to ignore the dog (easier said than done I know,spider phobic here). But basically keep moving. If the dog approaches then stand still. You might have to positively encourage this initially but it does work.

I grew up in a family where a fair few owned dogs, my aunt who looked after me daily when my parents worked had an Alsatian, so I wasn't unused to big dogs. But that did not stop my 4 year old self being terrified when a Rottweiler came barreling across a field to meet my Nans dog. I remember being terrified,I also remember my Nan repeatedly saying "Alis, it's fine,just stand still like me, that's right stand still,good girl". The dog was perfectly friendly,had a sniff and walked off. I don't doubt that if I'd started running as I so wanted to, it might have ended differently.

Xihha Sat 20-Jul-13 23:00:48

Also teach them to sound confident, a firm 'sit' 'no' or 'down' will generally work on most dogs that are off the lead and will stop them jumping up. with my dog down is accompanied by pointing to the ground and most dog owners I've met do that too.

MissBetseyTrotwood Sat 20-Jul-13 23:12:16

Mine learnt the 'be a tree' thing and it has worked a treat. Think they should cover it in school tbh.

Lazyjaney Sat 20-Jul-13 23:21:40

See dallas this is exactly what midnite and I have been saying to an apparently deaf lazyjaney. Hopefully now you have confirmed from a professional perspective she will stop bring such a monumental idiot and start teaching her kids not to run up to and torment a dog who is on a lead and under control

Perhaps the good LtEve would care to explain how come she is having to save dogs from being PTS that were apparently under control and provoked, in that case......

The only monumental idiots on this thread are those who still can't get it through their skulls that any dog that attacks and injures a child, regardless of any "he/she provoked my doggy" bleating, has committed an offence and is liable.

babyhmummy01 Sat 20-Jul-13 23:33:58

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wharrgarbl Sat 20-Jul-13 23:34:36

i was being charitable as you clearly do not know UK law. If you are in Oxford, I suggest you acquaint yourself with it.

As she quoted directly from it, I would suggest to you that she does, in fact, know the law.

Are you really this obtuse?

DiseasesOfTheSheep Sat 20-Jul-13 23:38:21

No matter what you think on the matter Oh Lazy one, the law is clear - unprovoked attacks may be a destruction offence. The context of the incident is always taken into account and where a dog bite is seen to have been provoked (i.e. is not an attack), and is reasonably proportionate to the provocation (i.e. multiple aggressive bites / ripping a child's throat out), the dog owner is not liable and the dog will not be destroyed.

Reindeer, if you don't have friends with dogs, try approaching someone in a park who has a dog. Someone hanging about, particularly someone who has kids, and has a dog who is good with them (I'd do a bit of stalking and pick a dog that is acting well with children and seems under control!) and ask them if they would mind if your dc approached the dog - even just standing calmly nearby. Even better if you see the same person a lot, as your dc can get used to them and get better over time. If someone asked me if they could, I'd certainly try to help them as far as I could. Far better that than have them give an out of control dog a "play" signal and getting themselves into any difficulty.

DiseasesOfTheSheep Sat 20-Jul-13 23:39:43

ehem, that should clearly read not multiple aggressive bites / ripping out of throats etc shock

Fail.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 20-Jul-13 23:40:28

lazy

Talk about flogging a dead horse. You are actually quite wrong. You can stick your fingers in your ears as much and essentially shout "no no I am right" as much as you like. You are wrong.

PosyNarker Sun 21-Jul-13 00:05:10

YANBU I was brought up to understand dogs might bite and even my friends soft as anything retriever wasn't left with us until we were ~12. That seems fairly sensible for that particular (big, but soft) dog.

I d fb warn people about my moggy. He is very calm but he is Top Cat so I did keep a good eye on my friends little one while playing in case any of the play offended his kitty dignity. At the end of the day much less dangerous than a dog, but the key points about teaching the child hold

Xihha Sun 21-Jul-13 00:07:45

Bloody hell, Lazyjaney we get it, you don't like dogs and have read an article about this and therefore clearly think you know everything about UK law, repeating it over and over is not going to make us believe you anymore than we did the first time you were wrong!

LtEveDallas Sun 21-Jul-13 06:13:44

Perhaps the good LtEve would care to explain how come she is having to save dogs from being PTS that were apparently under control and provoked, in that case......

I'm not quite sure what I am being asked here? I thought my last post was quite clear.

In Feb I was called out to a cornered stray that was terrified, snapping and snarling. He had bitten one person that had tried to grab hold of him. Capturing him was quite traumatic (for him) but once he was calm he was a regular dog but remaind wide eyed and trembling for over an hour. Even though he had bitten the dog warden and PC both agreed that it was a fear response so were happy for me to take him to rescue. The 'would-be' rescuer (that was bitten) wasn't convinced. I can understand that, his hand was a mess. Kids had cornered the dog at the garages, the man had tried to grab his neck and the dog had given him a good bite on the hand. PC was able to persuade bitten man to leave it with us for a while and not immediately call for the dog to be PTS.

Long story short - dog is now rehabilitated. Man who was bitten visited dog a number of times in Rescue and was happy to see the change in him. Dog was not a danger, he was just scared and 'provoked' by the kids that had cornered him and the man that had grabbed him.

Does that answer your question LazyJaney? Like I said, I'm not quite sure what you want.

LtEveDallas Sun 21-Jul-13 07:56:11

Actually, having read through some of the more recent comments I think I should make something clear. I am NOT an expert. I am a volunteer. I do what I do for a love of dogs and support to Rescue. Not a specific rescue (although I am affiliated with a specific rescue) but in support of all Rescues and Vets that care for unwanted animals.

If you want EXPERT advice from MN then there are Vets, Behaviourists, Rescuers and Trainers on the Doghouse that could give you what you want. I can too, but only in a 'my experience' way. I don't want to mislead people - it's very important to me that I am honest on MN, no matter what.

I know and understand the law from my contact with my local dog warden - who has become a friend and the local community PC who is a friend and colleague (in my 'day job'). Everything I do if I am asked to go out is done within the law and with the advice and guidance of the people who are trained in and actually do this day to day. My 'boss' at the rescue has been involved in god knows how many legal challenges/cases and is most certainly an expert in this field - but even she gets advice from 'DogsLaw' smile

I get called out because I am in the area, I have time to help and because I'm not easily scared grin. My mate gets called for all the same reasons, plus she'll take on the 'unhomeables' (last count 6 dogs, 3 cats and 9 rabbits!) I can't do that yet - but probably will later down the line. In fact those who know me know about RottDog, now she was unhomeable and apparently a dangerous biter ....I took her in, let DD (then 6) love her and gave her 2 good years.

I just don't want to mislead people here. I am a squaddie first and foremost (it pays the bills), a volunteer by choice smile and knowledgable by osmosis grin.

crashdoll Sun 21-Jul-13 09:03:40

I think some people here are selectively reading to suit their own agenda. confused

I am a dog owner and I love my dog. I don't wish to be accosted by someone's slobbering furry animal as I walk down the street. I was pissed off when I was walking my dog and a massive dog jumped up and put his muddy paws on my new coat as I had to pay for it to be dry cleaned. I recognise that human rights far exceed animal rights and that if my dog was to attack someone unprovoked, it is MY responsibility. HOWEVER, if a child runs up to my dog, tries to grab him, don't be surprised if my dog is less than thrilled. If he were to attack, then I would never blame the child but I would put a small proportion of blame on the adult accompanying the child. Teaching your children how to approach animals does not negate from dog owner responsibility. You could potentially save your child from injury or emotional harm. Why someone would refuse to do that is quite beyond me! IMO, it goes alongside teaching your child to cross the road safely and to put on a seatbelt in the car. Like it or not, animals are part of our lives. To the ignorant parents on here - do your children a favour and help them out a bit because instinctively they just do not know how to approach animals.

Lazyjaney Sun 21-Jul-13 09:23:54

^^
the voice of reason, and of understanding where liability lies.

Of course parents are going to teach their kids how to avoid hurt from other peoples animals, but as you say, the liability still lies with the dog owner.

But that is the issue that some of the more dogmatic dog-nuts on here have singularly failed to grasp, and some have been extraordinarily defensive and offensive when I've pointed that out.

LtEve you sound lovely, but I do know that the dog owner is liable if the dog bites a child, whatever the situation.

DiseasesOfTheSheep Sun 21-Jul-13 09:52:07

but I do know that the dog owner is liable if the dog bites a child, whatever the situation

Unfortunately your "knowledge" is flawed. It's not defensiveness, it's truth - the context of the incident is relevant, and there is a dichotomy between an "attack" and a fear response which causes injury.

Now, I recognise that this is a prime example of doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different response, since you are clearly not interested in learning anything here, Lazy, which is a shame, since your knowledge is very flawed, but I still feel it needs saying.

Donnadoon Sun 21-Jul-13 09:59:57

I love dogs I do...they are bloody wonderful creatures, man/womans best friend in fact.
I also love my soon to be 5 kids too...but...ya know...the dog owners out there will understand grin

babyhmummy01 Sun 21-Jul-13 10:08:24

lazy there is s huge gap between what you think you know and the truth. You are wrong in your statements which has been pointed out and backed up by several posters and yet you still choose to spout utter rubbish.

If a dog snaps as a result of a fear response cos dome bratty child or adult startles them or hurts them it is the fault of the child/adult not the dog or owner

D0oinMeCleanin Sun 21-Jul-13 10:58:07

LazyJaney, why don't you ask These dog law specialists to confirm what you 'know' for us

If a solicitor agrees with you, then we will see reason.

Just ask, hypothetically, if your child ran to my dog without asking me and grabbed his collar, causing my dog to snap at his hand, would I be automatically liable and would be dog be PTS and myself fined, or would be an idiot for allowing your child to that.

Being a solicitor specialising in the subject, I should think he knows the law.

LtEveDallas Sun 21-Jul-13 12:53:49

Trevor at DogLaw (Dooin's link) is my Rescue Boss's favourite person in the whole world! He was also recommended to me by a MNer when my brothers dog found itself in a spot of bother. I think the sun shines out of Trevor's (ahem) and would recommend DogLaw to anyone needing legal advice. They are wonderful

Lazyjaney Sun 21-Jul-13 13:35:50

Actually, there are quite a few online solicitors offering to take dog bite cases to court as well, and they have opposing points of view.

But having read a few other doggy threads this morning I've come to the conclusion that dog lovers get a sort of reality distortion field going in their heads that make it absolutely impossible for them to look at the world rationally. The absurdity of this threads premise - that others must teach their kids how to handle your potentially dangerous animal - being a case in point.

I think to those who think they know how the law works with respect to their dogs biting other peoples kids and it being the kids fault, I can only say "go on, try it if you are so sure" as it's clear rational argument won't work.

Canidae Sun 21-Jul-13 13:45:05

So using LazyJaney's reasoning imagine a dog being walked to heel on a lead by it's owner down a public street. A young child runs up to the dog out of clear sight by the owner and hits the dog repeatedly around the face/nose. The dog tries to back away as the owner tries to put theirself between the child and dog. Dog is cowering, licking lips giving all it's best signals but it doesn't work. Child sticks his/her finger in the dog's eye. In pain and panic the dog bites the child's hand.

You still see the dog/owner is the one at fault?

Donnadoon Sun 21-Jul-13 13:46:57

Canidae Yes unfortunately she does.

babyhmummy01 Sun 21-Jul-13 13:51:59

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babybythesea Sun 21-Jul-13 14:01:00

I find LazyJaneys attitude quite sad actually - it seems to indicate not only a complete lack of responsibility towards her own kids, but also a complete lack respect to living creatures. It's ok to let the kids do what they like because it will always be the owner's fault???

Do you feel the same about cars? It's perfectly acceptable not to teach your children how to behave on a busy road because even if the child runs out into the road and is hit, it will always be the driver's fault? After all, they are the one in charge of a killing machine.... Or do you in fact see that a child's behaviour might contribute to an incident and children therefore need to know the basics of keeping themselves safe? Like not running out onto a busy road, or not tormenting the dog.

Canidae Sun 21-Jul-13 14:12:14

Wow ok. Thankfully many dog owners are responsable and would do anything in their power to avoid dog bites but like many things in life it goes both ways. Even if Lazy truely believes she is right what harm does it do to have children that know how to act around dogs or other animals?

When my GSD was 1 yr old we were outside my local spar shop waiting for a family member. Dog was sat by my side and I was stroking his head. A girl of about 4 or 5 came from behind and straddled his back! She had her arms around his neck and was leaning/climbing on him. Dog twisted around to see what had jumped on him and I yanked her up by her arm. My dog made no motion to bite and was very calm about it really but I was livid. Parents were getting into a car up the road and the child said nothing and ran to them. By the time I had checked my dog was ok they had gone.

babyhmummy01 Sun 21-Jul-13 14:20:21

babybythesea I think she would blame the car based on her posts. (how you holding up btw)

canidae I have similar probs but cos mine is tiny and looks like a teddy bear so kids think its fine to run up and cuddle her. I gave yelled at several kids to leave heralone, esp in the heat and parents to control their damn brats and teach them to be careful. I know that 9 times out of 10 she wouldn't bat an eyelid if it was a child but its that 1 time I worry about. As for adults, as a dog who has been badly beaten she is terrified of men she doesn't know. I have to hold her tight to ne to reassure her before I let anyone touch her

crashdoll Sun 21-Jul-13 14:21:25

"But having read a few other doggy threads this morning I've come to the conclusion that dog lovers get a sort of reality distortion field going in their heads that make it absolutely impossible for them to look at the world rationally."

It's ironic you say that because you are exactly the same around your children. grin

babyhmummy01 Sun 21-Jul-13 14:34:27

Pmsl @ crashdoll

Lazyjaney Sun 21-Jul-13 14:34:47

Actually, I've just read the Dog Law website re the result of the Dangerous Dogs act, it pretty much agrees with everything Ive said:

This is a criminal offence which can be brought against the owner of a dog (and if different the person in charge of a dog) if a dog is:

- dangerously out of control
- in a public place

'Dangerously out of control' is defined as being 'on any occasion on which there are grounds for reasonable apprehension that it will injure any person'. Generally, if a dog bites someone then it will be presumed to have been dangerously out of control

You all may want to re read that last sentence. There is nothing about provocation by a child, nor is a lead a guarantee of control. Anyway, onwards:

'Public place' is defined as including any place 'to which the public have or are permitted to have access'

As to the absurdity of the presumption on this thread about a child being blamed:

If injury is caused to a person, then there is a presumption in favour of destruction of the dog unless the owner can prove that the dog would not constitute a danger to public safety. If the Court can be persuaded not to impose destruction, then the alternative is a Contingent Destruction Order ie. a requirement that unless the dog is kept under proper control then it shall be destroyed. The Court has the power to impose conditions to such an order

I suspect LtEve's organisation is one that tries to help prevent dogs being destroyed (which I would agree with, as if the MN doggy threads are anything to go by it's the owners who are barking). But it is clear where the presumption of the law rests. As well as the dog being under threat of destruction, the owner will be liable:

For the owner and/or person in charge of the dog at the time of the incident the Court has the power to impose a prison sentence as well as a ban on keeping dogs. However, this is very rare and the more likely outcome is financial ie. a fine, compensation and costs

QED I think.

MrsWolowitz Sun 21-Jul-13 14:37:48

Lazy you are wrong. You really are.

Just trach your kids how to behave around dogs. I don't have a horse but I teach my kids how to be safe around them. I don't like swimming in the sea but I teach them how to be safe around the ocean. What is your issue here or are you just enjoying being obtuse?

MrsWolowitz Sun 21-Jul-13 14:37:58

*teach.

babyhmummy01 Sun 21-Jul-13 14:38:50

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Threefurrymonsters Sun 21-Jul-13 14:44:10

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LtEveDallas Sun 21-Jul-13 14:52:39

If a dog is on a lead and being walked at its owners heel then there are NOT grounds for reasonable apprehension that it will injure any person

A dog on a lead is NOT dangerously out of control. A dog on a lead is being controlled by its owner.

The law goes a lot further than the extract that LazyJaney has just posted. For example it stipulate that a dog being held on a lead by a child it NOT 'under control' if the child would be unable to hold onto it due to lack of strength. But a dog being held by its owner (what this whole thread is about) cannot be considered 'dangerously out of control'

Lazy, you are acting like a Goady fool and I for one have had enough. Your assertion that you are right, when you don't even have any experience of the issue demeans you. Thankfully the old adage "better to be thought of as a fool than to open your mouth and prove it" sits comfortably with you, so I am satisfied that no-one will be daft enough to listen to you now.

Donnadoon Sun 21-Jul-13 15:02:34

AAAAARRRRGGGGHHHH !!!!!!

D0oinMeCleanin Sun 21-Jul-13 15:17:08

<sigh>

The law really is not the focus of this topic, so for my sanity and that of the other less batshit crazy posters on this thread, let's just pretend for a moment that you are right LazyJaney.

Even if the law is on your on side, why would not agree that teaching your children not to startle or hurt dogs is not a good idea? We are all in agreement, surely, that a startled or in pain dog is more likely to cause injury to someone than one who is being ignored or respected, yes?

So why not just teach your children to leave dogs alone, LazyJaney? Regardless of the rights or wrongs of the law, your children are unlikely to feel comforted by your assertion that the dog owner was at fault and you will press charges, whilst they are having their face sewn back together, are they?

Why not just limit the chances of any incidents occurring by teaching your children appropriate behavior? The same as you do with traffic sense. It's just common sense really.

babyhmummy01 Sun 21-Jul-13 15:18:01

Ohhh have been deleted for saying dogs on leads are under control...awww lazy can't hack the truth

Emz8369 Sun 21-Jul-13 15:21:09

I have lost count of the amount of times someone walking their dog has given me a dirty look because I have stopped daughter running towards their dog and made her walk beside me

LackingEnergy Sun 21-Jul-13 15:42:55

Based on some previous threads, both on this and on other forums, about 'friendly' dogs approaching and accidentally hurting children some of the advice given could potentially be used here...

If a 'friendly', bouncy, uncontrolled dog child approaches your child dog with no owner parent in sight or no owner parent making an effort to recall said dog child , discourage the dog child by kicking it, shouting at it and pushing it away...

Or you could just train your damn dog child before letting them have free rein in a public place smile

Of course it is far less acceptable to do any of the things suggested to deter unwanted doggy attention in situations involving unwanted child attention... Damn speciesist society that we live in ;)

* these suggestions are not my own just ones I have been [shocked] to find suggested at some point or another

LackingEnergy Sun 21-Jul-13 15:45:14

since we all share public spaces it would be wise to try and get along, don't you think?

KittensoftPuppydog Sun 21-Jul-13 15:57:05

Lazy janey, the law is open to interpretation, and there are also laws about cruelty to animals.
The law would be the least of your worries if one of your little prince or princesses goaded a dog into biting them and you succeeded in getting the dog put down.
As you can see dog owners are very fond of their animals.

ICBINEG Sun 21-Jul-13 16:16:09

What I find surprising about keeping dogs as pets is that people are prepared to go to all that effort to dissuade them from their natural behaviours, and then say things like..oh yeah well if there are too many children around (even if they aren't actually interacting with the dog) then of course natural instinct can kick in and someone may get bitten...but it isn't the poor doggies fault.

Too fucking right it isn't. The fault lies with anyone taking a killing machine out on a lead into a world of temptation and hoping their wafer thin veil of behavioural conditioning will hold.....

Dogs are dangerous. They are supposed to be. Taking them to places where they can interact with children is bonkers.

D0oinMeCleanin Sun 21-Jul-13 16:20:26

Um, no dog has a natural instinct to harm children.

Nor are they inherently dangerous. Dogs domesticated themselves by friendly with humans and trusting us. Their natural instinct is to work with us, seek out our company and affections and eat our food.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 21-Jul-13 16:21:16

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babyhmummy01 Sun 21-Jul-13 16:25:56

Oh joy, another one who hasn't got a clue what they are talking about.

ICBINEG Sun 21-Jul-13 16:28:37

Well there are several people on here posting in favour of dogs but making reference to the fact that they can still be expected to attack under certain circumstances.

This doesn't surprise me. They are dogs. What does surprise me is that people would chose to live with animals that can be expected to attack under certain conditions, regardless of training.

On MN I have seen pro dog posters say that a dog can't be expected not to attack if someone interrupts them while feeding, on this thread people have excused dogs biting unprovoked because there were 'a lot of people around'. Being in the dogs house (even when invited) is enough...so why keep the fecking things?

Nicknamefail Sun 21-Jul-13 16:29:04

Sorry, only had time read 1/4 thread but wanted to respond. Yes children should be taught to behave around dogs but children can be unpredictable as well as dogs and of they have only come across friendly ones even warnings can be ignored.
Main point- care needed on both sides.

ICBINEG Sun 21-Jul-13 16:30:20

baby I think it was actually you who said 'natural instincts will kick in' in reference to a dog biting because they were too many children around (not that the kids were doing anything wrong other than existing).

So I agree with you specifically. dogs natural instincts will kick in. So why keep something with natural instincts to bite when nervous around you, your kids, or anyone elses?

ICBINEG Sun 21-Jul-13 16:34:29

I also thought the analogy to gun ownership was pretty apt.

In a society with high levels of gun ownership, EVERYONE has to teach kids to be careful around guns. (an still some children are killed in accidents every year).

In a society with no gun ownership, you don't have to worry.

In a society with high dog ownership, EVERYONE has to teach kids to be careful around dogs. (and still some children are killed in accidents every year).

In a society with no dog ownership, you don't have to worry.

So what is the massive benefit of keeping dogs as pets that outweighs the inconvenience to EVERYONE of having to be careful everywhere they go not to mention the risks of deaths every year?

At least guns don't crap everywhere on top of it all...

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 21-Jul-13 16:37:06

Oh stop talking out of your arse.

Canidae Sun 21-Jul-13 16:37:13

To those who are of the opinion that dogs are evil and those who have them are crazy, what are your views of service dogs?

D0oinMeCleanin Sun 21-Jul-13 16:37:46

Actually biting a person goes against every instinct a normally socialised dog has. It is literally their last line of defense and they hate to go there.

They have thousands of ways to communicate to us that they are worried or in pain, ranging from subtle body language to more vocal snarling and growling. Problems occur because people are all too often unwilling to spend a few hours of their time reading up on these subtle cues.

A dog afraid of children will show eleventy million different signals indicating that he does not want the child to come into his space before the child has so much as broken into a run. If the parent bothered teaching the child even a few of those, then children would much less likely to be bitten.

A dog, even a non socialised one, will only bite as a last resort of they believe their safety is at risk.

ICBINEG Sun 21-Jul-13 16:41:22

Doin But aren't all dogs different? Presumably it is obvious to you when your own dog needs some quiet time...but why should I need to have a crash course in your dogs psychology before it is safe for me to take a walk in the park with my toddler?

KittensoftPuppydog Sun 21-Jul-13 16:43:00

I think that many human beings would attack if they were threatened too.
Oh why do we keep the horrid humans?
Not to mention polluting the environment in a serious way.

ICBINEG Sun 21-Jul-13 16:44:31

can working dogs seem a different and more pointful thing than pet dogs. A proper symbiosis.

Pet dogs is asking for all sorts of trouble...as it regularly seen in the news.

Seriously what is so good about having a dog that it outweighs the inconvenience/risks to non dog owners?

KittensoftPuppydog Sun 21-Jul-13 16:44:31

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ICBINEG Sun 21-Jul-13 16:45:22

kittens you are so totally winning me over with your eloquent arguments.

Where are these places?

ICBINEG Sun 21-Jul-13 16:46:11

are they mostly inside places?

like cinemas?

babyhmummy01 Sun 21-Jul-13 16:47:16

A dog who is over crowded and frightened will naturally protect itself same as a human. Doesn't make it dangerous or evil.

alis careful hun, for making similar remarks to another ill informed poster mntowers has threatened to permanently suspend me...appears certain people don't like having their failings pointed out to them

ICBINEG Sun 21-Jul-13 16:49:44

Most humans aren't expected to lose it when the number of unfamiliar children in the room exceeds 3. (although soft play may be an exception). Similarly it is safe to approach a human even while they are eating! According to people on here is is reasonable to expect a dog to bite in response to these things, and one should therefore spend time and effort teaching all the toddlers in the country to avoid these situations, and how to act if they get in one by mistake (for instance due to the dog owner inviting them in). And then care for them when they get maimed anyway in spite of being dog 'confident' or whatever...

Or we could not keep dogs....

ICBINEG Sun 21-Jul-13 16:50:25

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ICBINEG Sun 21-Jul-13 16:51:12

Alis I can't even hear you, you sound so ridiculous...

<also fine>

ICBINEG Sun 21-Jul-13 16:53:35

Besides, this misses the point. We are the human race. Making more humans is our main role in life.

Dogs don't actually factor into this...unless they are actually helping in some way.

Hence working dogs are bearable. Pet dogs are nothing but a shit producing drain on resources, that incidentally threatens our actual children.

Can't see the need.....

babyhmummy01 Sun 21-Jul-13 16:53:57

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Canidae Sun 21-Jul-13 17:08:26

You do realise that people are also killed/hurt by thousands of other animals? Elephants kill 500+ people a year! Lets kill them all!

I have been around dogs all my life. I currantly have two. I have been to hundreds of obedience classes and agilty. Have been at and entered in many dog shows and have been involved in charity dog walks where as many as 20 dogs all ran around off lead. I did work experience at a vets and go out of my way to be around dogs and dog people. Guess what? I love dogs!

And as for making humans being our main role in life? Better get rid of those childfree or people who can't have children. They are a drain on the resources that your little darlings need!

Icbineg - you asked what was good about having a dog. I doubt you'll give the remotest shit, but having a dog has helped my severely autistic son enormously (we don't have a working dog, although some families of kids with autism do). He interacts with the dog & insists on walking him every day. Many teens with severe autism are obese (haven't got the figure but it's a recognised problem- higher than the typical percentage). This is thought to be because on the whole they can't okay team sports, and are less active. Many refuse to leave the house except for school. So having a dog that needs walking every day is a big health benefit for my son as well as being therapeutic & helping him with his anxieties (which tend to go with severe autism). His fur has also made ds1 far more tolerant of different textures which makes sitting on different seats, wearing clothes eyed easier for him.

LackingEnergy Sun 21-Jul-13 17:12:37

so if service dogs are acceptable to you do you teach your child not to approach or touch them? As to do so would distract them from their very important job

D0oinMeCleanin Sun 21-Jul-13 17:13:42

The body language between dogs is fairly universal, actually, there are subtle differences between breeds, such as Collie will use more subtle body language than a lab, the labs ear movements will huge and very distinct, the collie might merely flick it's ear and then become annoyed when the other dog has not listened, Collies are very observant dogs and so don't tend to exaggerate the body language like an excitable lab would, but the basics are still the same.

It hardly takes any time at all to read up and relate to your children a few of the key dog langauge cues eg. lip licking and tongue flicking = nervous dog, open, relaxed mouth and a tail wagging steadily neither raised nor tucked under = happy relaxed dog etc.

And I keep my dog away from toddlers, FYI, all I ask for parents to extend the same curtsey to me regarding their toddlers. Just because I have a dog with me does not mean I happy to stop and entertain your child for you for a while, while you finish your mobile phone conversation. I do not want to know that Uncle Ronnie has a dog the same as mine, except it's a boy and it's bigger and a different color with different hair and a big willy but apart from that it's exactly the same as mine confused

Donnadoon Sun 21-Jul-13 17:20:07

Ha ha ha D0in

D0oinMeCleanin Sun 21-Jul-13 17:30:31

Yes, Uncle Ronnies little Whippet cross sounded suspiciously like one of the northern breeds to me, but apart from the fact that it was clearly an entirely different breed of dog, it was exacterly the same as my WhippetX, as told to me by Jemma with a Juh, last week in the park, while Jemma with a Juh's mum was busy arranging her friend's hen night and was did not seem bothered that I was trying to extract myself and my dog from Jemma with Juh's clutches.

KittensoftPuppydog Sun 21-Jul-13 17:45:42

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Pedant alert: 'the human race' has no aim 'to make more humans' because selection doesn't act at that level. It acts at an individual level.

AcrylicPlexiglass Sun 21-Jul-13 18:06:30

Children and dogs are the main users of green spaces like parks; they're going to meet whether the owners/parents like it or not so it makes sense for dog owners to know that they are going to have to control their dog around the unpredictability that comes with children and other dogs and for parents to supervise their children around dogs and teach them to ask the owners if they're friendly. Because other dogs and children are unpredictable, if you have a dog who doesn't like being approached in a "hello nice doggy, stroke stroke" type way and will snap/bite it should have a muzzle on, I think. And you should be shouting "watch out darling this dog is not friendly please don't stroke him" to all approachers. I do think the onus is on the dog owner. It's nice if children are able to be taught how to ask/judge when to approach but some will be too young, unable to understand, frightened, have parents who don't think to teach them or are lax in supervising etc etc.

Having said that, the dogs and owners we have met recently on our travels have been lovely! They all told us that their dogs are friendly as soon as we were anywhere near, perhaps seeing the slightly unsure expression on my almost 4 year old's face. She's starting to be a bit less afraid of dogs and not want to get away from them immediately and it has been lovely for her (and us) to meet 3 very tame and friendly dogs of varying sizes and ages this weekend.

ILoveOnionRings Sun 21-Jul-13 18:18:54

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ICBINEG Sun 21-Jul-13 18:37:08

Wow I learned something on this thread...why people who lurk in the doghouse get kicked off mn a lot...

saintly I did know that kids with autism could be helped by pets/dogs, but I thought they were working dogs, and would need special training for the role.

ICBINEG Sun 21-Jul-13 18:37:59

ilove that's the worst insult on the thread!

ICBINEG Sun 21-Jul-13 18:40:08

kittens well I guess if you like dogs more than humans, it is likely that your own genes won't be going to far...

Personally I find humans more engaging and interesting...although I would say the same of cats...<shock horror>

Not that many cats get put down for attacking children...

KittensoftPuppydog Sun 21-Jul-13 18:51:31

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My cats are more of a pita for stealing food etc than our dog. And have upset the neighbours (doing normal catty things) whereas they all like the dog.

My son is too old to be given a service dog. The pet dog cannot block him if he runs but otherwise by being a normal dog in the household has helped him considerably. I might upload a photo of the two of then later if I can get on a computer.

MrsWolowitz Sun 21-Jul-13 18:58:15

What's do great about owning a dog?

I have bipolar. My dog is my medication. He really is. He is my escape, my hobby, my friend.

I have a loving DH, wonderful DC, strong Christian faith, fantastic friends but my dog just helps make my illness a little bit better.

I love him, I love training him, watching him learn, watching him bind with my DC and play with them. When I'm ill he is so gentle and settles next to me, watching me with gentle concern. The rest of the time he is a bouncy idiot who brightens up my life.

I'm sure you don't and won't understand at all but that is why my dog is fantastic.

MrsWolowitz Sun 21-Jul-13 19:00:22

(At the moment wolouppy is cuddled up to DD1 under her blanket watching TV) smile

MrsWolowitz Sun 21-Jul-13 19:00:52

Oh man I can't type at the moment!

Please excuse all the typos!

LtEveDallas Sun 21-Jul-13 19:44:35

What's so great about owning a dog?

Off the top of my head:

Unconditional non-judgemental love.
Amusement
Fitness
Sense of responsibility
Warm feet
Cuddles
Joy
Company
Peace

Lazyjaney Sun 21-Jul-13 19:50:45

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Alisvolatpropiis Sun 21-Jul-13 19:53:54

biscuit

Child hating? :rolls eyes:

MrsWolowitz Sun 21-Jul-13 20:01:09

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babyhmummy01 Sun 21-Jul-13 20:03:47

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Xihha Sun 21-Jul-13 20:22:50

I'd say Lazyjaney's a bit of both tbh MrsWolowitz.

imademarion Sun 21-Jul-13 20:24:43

Lazy, have yourself a Bonio, pet.

Is it a bit hot for you today?

Or did someone once love a dog more than they loved you?

I simply can't imagine where your vitriol stems from.

But I don't care that much wink

mathanxiety Sun 21-Jul-13 20:35:35

I think children need those skills. I think parents should teach them. A dog owner is perfectly within her rights to try to teach children - kindly and patiently and not sergeant-major style - if they suspect the child doesn't know how to behave around a dog.

However, I think plenty of dog owners should understand that the world doesn't revolve around their dogs. At the end of the day it is up to pet owners to teach their dogs how to behave around humans of every shape and size and should be socialised to deal well with all sorts of behaviour on the part of people, including children. If they are to be out and about they should be trained to complete obedience.

Dogs are wonderful pets and companions. Dog owners should understand that sometimes a dog is irresistible to a child with SN or just one who is naturally inquisitive or friendly and outgoing. The way they treat children they come in contact with should put the child first. They should not be treated as little ignoramuses or nuisances or delinquents.

My child will run round in circules, flap his arms around and squeal if a dog comes near him. He has SN and dog friendship is so far down the list of essential and safety lessons it barely registers.

If you cannot be sure your dog would be safe in those circumstances then I'm afraid you'll have to keep it on a lead. Children, of all shapes and sizes come first.

HotCrossPun Sun 21-Jul-13 20:44:46

I've just read through this whole thread.

Hats off to all the sensible posters D0in etc, who have managed to give reasoned, articulate responses to somebody who is at best goady and at worst - well you know grin

You can't argue with stupid though.

tabulahrasa Sun 21-Jul-13 20:48:48

Starlight - we're talking about children approaching dogs, not dogs approaching children, everyone with a dog on this thread has said absolutely that dogs shouldn't be approaching anyone.

There were some general tips for if a dog does approach but that's because everyone knows that is an issue even though it shouldn't be, because of course there are owners who let dogs run amock where they shouldn't.

ICBINEG I have to say that I agree with much of what you have said, until you made mention of cats! grin I hate the bloody things!
I have no idea what possessed the human race to decide to domesticate dogs/ cats or even guinea pigs in the first place. What gave us the right to take these animals from their natural state and breed and interbreed them into a non-natural state, which often causes health issues and then blame them when they don't quite fit into the little perfect box that we have created for them. Rant over!
and don't get me started on zoos! sad

I was responding to the title. I think it is sensible to teach your child how to be around dogs. It is sensible to teach them a whole bunch of stuff.

Unfortunately not all children are capable of learning all of the lessons they 'should' and need to use public spaces too.

I do sympathise with those who get children coming up to their dogs without asking. Children (especially at this time of year) have been coming up to my baby in his pram without asking and giving him things that he could choke on or will get upset about giving back, as well as forcing him to put up with general poking.

Children really CAN be annoying and unable to keep their hands to themselves, but, for the most part they are exploring the world and their boundaries. They are JUST children.

Delayingtactic Sun 21-Jul-13 21:00:00

Gosh I'm amazed at how angry some people can get - at other people daring to own dogs. My DS managed to learn how to approach dogs from special agent Oso of all places. He follows those 'three special steps' to a tee. We don't have a dog, he's never seen an aggressive dog but now looks to me whenever he sees a dogs and begs me to ask. If the owner says no he knows that he can't go near and that's that. It was hardly the trial of a century. But I live in an area of responsible ownership and I can't remember the last time a dog bounded over.

Why do people keep dogs? I think anyone who can't think of ten reasons lack imagination. I can think of loads and I don't own any.

mathanxiety Sun 21-Jul-13 21:19:08

Starlight, I agree completely with your points here.

The bottom line here is the interests and nature of the children have to be taken as a given and dog owners should not expect that all children will adapt, or should adapt, to their pets. It should be the owners and their pets who adapt.

You do not know from just looking at a child whether that child might have a problem understanding that all dogs are dogs no matter what shape or size. You do not know if a child is capable of understanding that granny's dog's infinite patience is not a quality shared by all other dogs. You do not know if a child has any sort of SN or an impulsive and exuberant personality. All adults who have any experience of children at all know that children can say and do unpredictable things and therefore that is what they need to take into account when training a dog and when deciding if their dog is a suitable candidate for taking out. Not all dogs are.

Dogs need to be really well trained because children come in all sorts, yet at the end of the day the dog is supposed to be in the hands of someone who is responsible enough to control the situation. If the owner is not, then he or she has no business taking their dog out, and certainly no business having their dog off lead. It is irresponsible to expect all children a dog will come in contact with will be trained to behave properly around a dog.

josephinebruce Sun 21-Jul-13 21:26:55

Is it me, or does LazyJane just seem to post the same thing over and over again?

I love my dog.

Keep your probably obnoxious children out of his face and I will keep him away from you.

Deal?

SarahAndFuck Sun 21-Jul-13 21:42:32

It's both really OP.

As a parent, it's my job to teach DS how to behave around dogs. Both our own dogs and other people's dogs, which is helped by dog owners teaching their dogs how to behave well and keeping them under proper control.

And as a dog owner, it's up to me to teach my dogs how to behave around other people, and keep them under reasonable control while we are out in public. Which is helped by other people teaching their children how to best to behave around dogs in keeping with how the child feels about them.

People can only do their best. There will always be the child who runs up to pat a dog or runs away from it in fear. There will always be the dog who runs up for a fuss or who growls to warn someone away. There will sadly always be a child who has been bitten or a dog that has been mistreated, for example, who just can't cope with some situations and want nothing to do with strange dogs/strange people.

But it makes life a bit easier for everyone if you can do your best to help both dog and child as much as possible, allowing for these extreme circumstances, and try to teach them how and when to approach or avoid each other.

squoosh Sun 21-Jul-13 21:58:29

Dogs have always been around, dogs will always be around. No matter how much you despise them, neglecting to teach your child the appropriate way to behave around dogs is just bad parenting.

Squeaking and squawking about how awful dogs are is pointless.

Lazyjaney Sun 21-Jul-13 22:33:48

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ICBINEG Sun 21-Jul-13 22:37:01

There maybe some point, in the end, to pointing out the problems of dog ownership...maybe one day the ethics police will get around to pointing out that keeping dogs in environments unlike the one they were evolved to live in, and then disciplining the crap out of them in the hopes of 'training' them to accept the restrictions without biting people, is a really really shit idea.

Maybe one day keeping a dog as a pet will be as frowned upon as keeping whales or elephants as pets (think zoos/sea world etc) is now.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 21-Jul-13 22:45:32

Lazy - I'm not one of the "doghouse" crowd. I've posted on there only a handful of times confused

Unlikely ICBINEG. Humans have never been without animals. Fyi, last time I checked zoos,Sea World etc are still open.

squoosh Sun 21-Jul-13 22:45:38

Humans have kept dogs as pets for millennia, they have evolved to live with humans, disapprove all you want but I really wouldn't hold my breath that they'll go the way of cigarettes.

Maybe one day, your children will even choose to be dog owners!

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 21-Jul-13 22:47:00

Also ICBINEG I would recommend you read In Defence of Dogs as you labour under the assumption dogs do not live in the enviroment they were intended to.

It's an interesting academic book.

MrsWolowitz Sun 21-Jul-13 22:47:43

hmm take it from me, my pampered pooch who has has daily walks, swims and endless playing is not at all comparable to an elephant maltreated in a zoo.

You clearly know nothing about dog training and the excitement and enjoyment that dogs get from agility/training/human companionship.

Icbineg - you're not coming across as very knowledgable about either evolution or domestication.

I think lazyjane most of us are suggesting that parents train their children because it benefits the child. Im sure the dogs that thought my son was playing because of the way he behaved were quite happy to chase him. They looked pretty happy and full of life and not remotely snarling child killers that you seem to imagine all dogs to be. The person who was unhappy about the situation was my son, not the dogs. Fortunately I suppose he was the one triggering the unwanted behaviours. With some training in dog language and lots of practice at modifying his behaviour around dogs he was able to get the dogs to do what he wanted. The dogs lost out on an exciting (if unwilling) playmate, but my son was a lot happier.

babyhmummy01 Sun 21-Jul-13 22:49:59

lazy no one has said dogs are more important than kids, we have said that ad owners our responsibility is to keep our dogs under control not your kids

MrsWolowitz Sun 21-Jul-13 22:50:16

Just to show the love, patience and understanding involved in dog/owner relationship check out this little video here

The way the dog waits for its young disabled handler to give the commands is so moving.

ICBINEG Sun 21-Jul-13 22:52:30

alis well do try the doghouse - you will fit right in!

sea world limps on while most disapprove of perverting animals behaviour for human entertainment....

Not for much longer I think.

The situation is different with dogs...of course it is. But any breed of dog for which it is hard work to suppress the dogs natural instinct to defend it's territory/food enough that a non-dog confident toddler could come around for tea (and not BE the tea iyswim) should not be put through the training. It isn't fair on the dog.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 21-Jul-13 22:55:42

Can you read?I said I'd posted there but don't frequent the board.

I'm assuming with your all consuming concern of animal ethics you are a vegan?

I think you'll find yourself struggling to find any post where I've said dogs should come before children.

What on earth does sea world have to do with dogs?

I suggest you read up on domestication icbineg

MrsWolowitz Sun 21-Jul-13 22:59:53

Rarely do I see such wilful ignorance as you are displaying ICBINEG

wharrgarbl Sun 21-Jul-13 23:02:33

the very premise of this thread, that other parents must train children not to annoy their precious dogs

Wow, hyperbole much? No it isn't, and if you took off those blinkers you have on, you'd see it.
Never visited the Doghouse, don't own a dog, doubt I ever will, but still think it's appropriate to have taught my son how to approach other people's animals. He loves them, in fact.

ICBINEG Sun 21-Jul-13 23:04:29

saintly I am really struggling to understand your view point. (even ignoring the snide comments).

Your son got chased by dogs when he (and presumably you) didn't want him to be?

And this is somehow your problem and not the dog owners?

What if, when I am done explaining in great detail to my own DC that they should never approach dogs, never go around to houses with dogs, and exactly how to act if approached by dogs off their leads on the beach (again!), someone moves in to my street and decides to keep a huskie, or bees, or a bobcat, or a racoon or a python (don't worry he's a big softy and has hardly ever attacked anyone..at least when food wasn't involved) and I now have 5 different sets of rules on how to react when other peoples random animals/insects come after you?

Surely if anyone makes the decision to share their life with a breed of animal known to have killed children, that it quite seriously their problem and not mine?

SarahAndFuck Sun 21-Jul-13 23:04:42

I have rarely posted in The Dog House because of a run in with one particular poster who was bloody awful for me for no reason. But that 'crowd' were lovely to me recently when I posted about my dog being ill and having to have him PTS. I couldn't have asked for kinder, more supportive people to speak to about it.

Perhaps the same goes with forums as it does with dogs and dog owners. The irresponsible few spoil things for the many.

As I said before, you do what you can with your dog and your child to teach both how to behave around the other, as best you can for what they can learn and understand. In the same way you do with other situations in life that we all have to learn to cope with regardless of our personal feelings for them.

Flojobunny Sun 21-Jul-13 23:08:30

Surely if anyone makes the decision to share their life with a breed of animal known to have killed children, that it quite seriously their problem and not mine?

Exactly that.

Flojobunny Sun 21-Jul-13 23:10:32

My DC are terrified of dogs because I have told them not to go near them else they might bite.
Whilst I agree that Some children need controlling around dogs, I disagree that the children should ask the owner if they can stroke it. If they d

MrsWolowitz Sun 21-Jul-13 23:11:22

Your child is far more likely to come into contact with dogs than pythons confused

Would you let your hold walk up behind a horse and play with its tail and if s/he gets kicked blame the horse? No.

Would you let your child cross the road without looking? No?

Then why would you let your child run up to a strange dog and pat it?

Flojobunny Sun 21-Jul-13 23:11:33

If they don't know the dog/owner then don't go near it, at all. Dogs are unpredictable, children are unpredictable keep the two apart.

MrsWolowitz Sun 21-Jul-13 23:12:22

I disagree that the children should ask the owner if they can stroke it

Of course they should ask. It's just manners of nothing else.

ICBINEG Sun 21-Jul-13 23:12:28

for the record I am more than happy to teach my DD to respect animals, that she should never hurt a dog, or what she might do that might hurt a dog.

But to have to teach her how to respond to being approached by dogs off the lead, or how to respond to being snarled or bitten by a dog she wasn't bothering really makes me feel sick.

It isn't her fault that other people have chosen to bring potentially dangerous animals into the places she plays in (none of the local playgrounds are dog free although some of them are supposed to be...). So now she has to be burdened with the extra knowledge and responsibility and risk, and for what? So that a minority of other people can get their faces licked and slobbered over?

squoosh Sun 21-Jul-13 23:13:22

'Surely if anyone makes the decision to share their life with a breed of animal known to have killed children, that it quite seriously their problem and not mine?'

Humans kill far more children than dogs do, are you children forbidden interaction with all people outside their family group too?

Cars kill far more children than dogs do, are they forbidden to accept lifts?

My son was chased by dogs (repeatedly) because every time one came within 50 yards of him he squealed, raised his arms in the air and jumped about, at which stage the dogs became interested 'ooh look that boy wants to play' and so they came over the play. At which stage he ran off an the dogs followed playfully. 'Oh look he wants to play chase'.

The owners were reasonable people who would collect the dogs and call them back. The dogs were friendly family pets, not child killers (hyperbole much?) But none of it would have happened at all if ds2 had stood still. It only happened because of his reaction. He was chased and leapt over because his body language invited the dogs to play. It was blindingly obvious to anyone with a sensible brain in their head.

So we worked on overcoming his fear of dogs so he could stand still.

And now he loves dogs, and sneaks our dog (which we didn't have back then btw) into his bed because he is not remotely fearful now. He's also very good at reading dog language - which makes things easier.

babybythesea Sun 21-Jul-13 23:14:50

Going to post one thing before heading up to bed.

I went to the beach (a dog friendly one in case anyone is interested). My dog ran in and out of the sea a bit and then settled down a few feet away from my daughter to supervise her while she built sandcastles, keeping a close eye when she went off to fill her bucket with water for the moat. We were all minding our own business when a child approached (I reckon about 8 or 9 years old) and said "Excuse me, can I please stroke your dog?" I picked myself up off the floor and looked round for the mumsnetter I thought must be lurking nearby, and then said "Why, yes, of course." Child did, supervised by me (I grabbed the collar just to be sure that she couldn't suddenly lunge and remove the child's arm since of course every dog is a killing machine wink ), dog loved every second of it, child escaped with not so much as a lick but wearing a big grin and telling me my dog was gorgeous (which she is), and I thought: well now, it is possible for a dog to have a positive interaction with a strange child and for everyone to live to tell the tale, with all limbs intact.

And see how easy it was? The child asked and I was then able to offer advice on which bits not to pat, and to hold on to the dog while the child enjoyed the interaction. And really, as a dog owner, that's about all I ask. I'm not valuing my dog over the child when I ask you to control your kids round my dog, I'm saying that although I honestly can't see my dog going for anyone (if I thought she would, I wouldn't take her out to public places), I'd rather not run the risk and would like the chance to make sure that a child's interaction with her is safe, and fun for both of them. If your child runs amok and hurts my dog, then I'd go mental - it's just not necessary and is so avoidable. I have kids and dogs. I don't value the dogs over the kids - I've just taught them both to behave round each other and everyone's happy. Why does it have to come down to a choice?

I see it as a win win. Teach your kids to behave around dogs and your child stands a chance of having a good interaction rather than a frightening one, and the dog doesn't get scared, and the adults don't get stressed.

And as I have repeatedly pointed out. The dogs that came over and ds2 squealed about were neither here nor there really. He was never in any danger. The problem was all his friends (bar one) had dogs. And he stopped being invited to their houses because his reaction was so extreme to them. He had to learn, not to become best friends with dogs, but to continue to interact and meet up with his human friends.

Lazyjaney Sun 21-Jul-13 23:17:00

I think lazyjane most of us are suggesting that parents train their children because it benefits the child

You should read some of the stuff upthread!!!

Lazy no one has said dogs are more important than kids, we have said that ad owners our responsibility is to keep our dogs under control not your kids

It was hard to work out what you in particularly were saying as it seemed to mostly consist of incoherent diatribe and insults.

But the point at issue is that of the responsibility for your dogs in public places where children are.

Dog owners are the ones bringing potentially dangerous animals near children in public places, not parents. It is not my responsibility to train my "probably obnoxious" toddler so that your dog doesn't bite it, it is your responsibility to ensure your dog doesn't bite and injure my kid in a public place, no matter what my kid does. Kids are kids, they aren't all growed up, many are too small to train in dog handling, and they make mistakes etc. But their rights not to be hurt trump any dog's in a public space. And the law agrees with this.

These are the blindingly obvious points that the dog-nuts on this thread still seem unable to grasp, 15 or so pages in.

Oh dear, ive had to say it again...

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 21-Jul-13 23:18:44

Flojo

I don't disagree with you. I would rather children didn't approach and pet my dog. As it is they do, often because their parents have suggested they do so. At least if they ask me I have the chance to say yes or no.

babyhmummy01 Sun 21-Jul-13 23:22:29

If my dog is on the lead I have fulfilled my responsibility end of discussion

If you can't control your child and stop them running up to complete strangers perhaps you should put your child on a lead

ICBINEG Sun 21-Jul-13 23:23:49

All right to I admit I am biased against dogs as I was bitten (very very mildly) as a child.

I was about 10-11yo and bent down to pick up a fork my younger sister dropped on the floor at dinner at my Grandad's and his dog (I think it was some sort of jack russell terrier - but it was all black so maybe not) ran out from under the table and bit me right on the end of my nose and ran back under again. (laugh away dog lovers...you know you want to). I was convinced it was all my fault so I made an excuse and hid in the bathroom until the bleeding stopped.

Of course it wasn't my fault because if a grandfather sits you down for dinner with his dog in the room he can pretty much be expected the situation in which one of the 3 kids in the room is going to drop something and pick it up....and of course it wasn't the dogs fault because my grandfather kept it partially as a guard dog and it was utterly utterly crazy...

But there is fault...and it begins with keeping a dangerous animal around children.

babybythesea Sun 21-Jul-13 23:25:36

"But to have to teach her how to respond to being approached by dogs off the lead, or how to respond to being snarled or bitten by a dog she wasn't bothering really makes me feel sick."

I'd agree, ICBINEG, for what it's worth, and I am a crazy dog lover.

But there's a practical side of me that says that if she's going to come into contact with dogs off lead, for example, then better she knows how to manage that - she shouldn't have to but if the situation is there best she knows how to deal with it. It's like any of those sorts of situations. You'd rather your kids didn't have to know what to do in case of a fire at home or school but just in case, best to cover it. Or that they wouldn't have to know about what damage fast cars can do - but they might need that knowledge one day so you may as well teach them.

I think cars provide the best analogy actually. They are dangerous things which can kill and should be under control, but sometimes the owner and their attitude means they are not. Sometimes this can simply mean annoying others (driving too fast, not indicating when turning). Sometimes they have the potential to be really dangerous (like someone using their phone while driving) and sometimes worse - they can be out of control and mount pavements and then nothing you do will help you. So you teach basic road safety, even if you don't have a car, because others do, and you need your child to understand how to keep themselves as safe as possible. And it doesn't need you to stop your child ever having anything to do with cars, just an understanding of road safety. It's much the same with dogs. The majority are sensible with decent owners. In an ideal world, they'd all be. Just like all car owners would be. But it's not an ideal world so best have a bit of knowledge to help you along.

Donnadoon Sun 21-Jul-13 23:28:24

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SarahAndFuck Sun 21-Jul-13 23:29:14

"Surely if anyone makes the decision to share their life with a breed of animal known to have killed children, that it quite seriously their problem and not mine?"

I'm not disagreeing that owning a dog is a responsibility to other people as well as to the dog.

But it's about everyone making their own lives easier and safer. The OP posted about warning children not to run up and grab strange dogs and even stated that her dog was on a lead when this happens.

I can't see the problem with teaching your children not to do that. I was always taught that, I teach my son that.

It's not saying the owner has no responsibility. But the OP having her dog on a lead means she is upholding her responsibility but having other people help explain to their children not to run up to it will help her.

I can't see that it's all that different to teaching a child road safety. They don't drive, your family might not have a car, might not even like cars, but cars are on the road and although it's up to the driver to drive safely, it's just sensible to teach children not to run out without looking.

babyhmummy01 Sun 21-Jul-13 23:31:30

icbineg that is awful and no dog kept and trained as a guard dog should be allowed to be near kids. But the vast majority of dogs are not trained to be such. They are family pets in the same vein as cats and hamsters etc.

Dogs that are allowed to run riot and have owners incapable of controlling them are a pita and in those instances you are right the onus is on the owner.

However, a dog on a lead is perfectly under control and highly unlikely to attack in the way you mean. if jumped upon by a boisterous child or adult when not expecting it as owner has not been asked and given time to advise may snap. This is not to say they are trying to hurt but just to warn the threat off. This is why as owners we would prefer those sorts of people either asked or stayed away as we are trying to stay away from them.

Lazyjaney Sun 21-Jul-13 23:36:10

If my dog is on the lead I have fulfilled my responsibility end of discussion. If you can't control your child and stop them running up to complete strangers perhaps you should put your child on a lead

This has been the sort of insane attitude among the dog-nuts on the thread. The solution proffered is that kids should be on leashes, in public places, to keep these dogs from maiming them.

Outside of this thread these sort of people would be thought absolutely barking mad, but on here this has been pretty standard fare for 15 pages!

Do you really, really think that if some toddler veered into your dog and tripped over it (as toddlers do), and it bit her and caused injury requiring stitches, the law is going to prosecute the toddler and not you?

I don't think someone has to learn how to respond to being bitten by a dog. That's not what I said at all. I was talking about playful dogs who would have ignored ds2 completely had he not unintentionally invited them to play because of the way he reacted.

MrsWolowitz Sun 21-Jul-13 23:38:35

It's not about a toddler tripping up its about children running over and behaving inappropriatly around dogs.

How can you not see that?

Do you seriously think its ok to let a child run up to a dog on a lead and start touching it etc without first speaking to the owner?

Lazyjaney Sun 21-Jul-13 23:43:41

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babyhmummy01 Sun 21-Jul-13 23:44:28

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MrsWolowitz Sun 21-Jul-13 23:46:16

Lazy no other posts have been like that.

I'm amazed that you find an attitude of "we'll keep our dogs under control but it would be a good idea if your children knew how to behave around dogs" dangerous.

mathanxiety Sun 21-Jul-13 23:47:13

But toddlers and small children behave inappropriately all the time MrsWolowitz.

Even those who are pretty good 90% of the time have to be watched constantly. They are unpredictable by nature. They do stupid and irresponsible things. They can't be trusted not to kill themselves and are not allowed to be alone.

Why do dog owners expect them to behave properly with dogs around when they can be seen in supermarkets and doctor's waiting rooms and churches and all sorts of other places behaving according to their nature -- being loud and obstreporous and obstinate and occasionally exuberant and friendly, and very clearly not just mini adults?

That is just barmy.

Babybythesea, you are talking about a child of about 8 right?

Flojobunny Sun 21-Jul-13 23:48:49

Babybythesea you held on to your dogs collar, just in case. Most owners don't. They would respond in a sure it's fine, when actually you can see their dog with its tail between its legs looking not very happy. If you don't know the owner then don't ask. It's rude to ask too mrsw. I quite like babies but I don't go up to random people asking to hold their baby yet its acceptable to ask to stroke their dog.

squoosh Sun 21-Jul-13 23:49:11

^'the safety of other peoples' kids trumps that of your dog.'*

And 99% of people on this thread agree wholeheartedly with that, but why can't you see that it is in your child's interests to learn how to interact safely with a dog?

It's the same as teaching them road safety, water safety, fire safety, all the other safeties that best ensures your child journeys through their day unharmed.

I think your hatred of dogs is making you quite irrational.

Donnadoon Sun 21-Jul-13 23:49:16

no matter what my kid does
Lazy you forgot to quote what you'd said

ZingWidge Sun 21-Jul-13 23:49:18

I agree with you OP

I was thought to not touch or feed a dog without the owners permission and I teach the same to my kids.

but I grew up in a different country where all dogs must wear a muzzle in public and are kept on a leash.

they can be off leash, but muzzles are obligatory. there are dedicated areas where they can be without either.

I love dogs & had dogs, but I absolutely hate seeing them without a muzzle. especially certain types that are not classified as family/child friendly or have a bad reputation.

they scare the shit out of me - ever since I was bitten by one.

ZingWidge Sun 21-Jul-13 23:50:00

I was taught!

not thought

MrsWolowitz Sun 21-Jul-13 23:50:12

math that's when supervision comes into it.

I have three preschoolers to keep an eye on but they just aren't allowed to run up to strange dogs and start touching them. I've told them not to but, as you rightly say, kids are unpredictable so I supervise them.

Same as I've told them how to cross a road sagely but I still supervise them.

I hope with age they will learn from my advice and teachings about how to approach dogs safely.

babyhmummy01 Sun 21-Jul-13 23:50:49

Then as parents you have an obligation to keep them away from dogs who are being walked on a lead away from them.

mathanxiety Sun 21-Jul-13 23:51:54

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Donnadoon Sun 21-Jul-13 23:53:08

No max no
Read the thread in full

curlew Sun 21-Jul-13 23:53:48

I have always taught my children to ask before touching or even approaching a dog. I think dog owners should do the same about their dogs touching or even approaching a child.

Donnadoon Sun 21-Jul-13 23:54:48

Just keep control of your kids and ill keep control of my dog and my kids
How hard is that to understand?
And your kid can not do what it likes to my dog
No it fuckin can't !!

MrsWolowitz Sun 21-Jul-13 23:55:07

Curlew I think everyone will agree with you on that.

babyhmummy01 Sun 21-Jul-13 23:56:51

My dog never goes near people she is terrified of them! Which is why she is walked on a lead unless the park is empty. But that doesn't stop people running up to fuss her be side she is small and they don't see her as a threat

Lazyjaney Sun 21-Jul-13 23:58:13

It's not about a toddler tripping up its about children running over and behaving inappropriatly around dogs.How can you not see that?

So what age do you suggest the child to be when it is responsible for it's being bitten by your dog in a public place? 4? 6? 9?

This thread's die hards have such a screwed up morality it is hard to believe, except here it is in black and white.

curlew Sun 21-Jul-13 23:59:30

"Curlew I think everyone will agree with you on that"

I don't think they will, you know!

Donnadoon Mon 22-Jul-13 00:00:26

A lady up thread said that a six year olds parents were successfully prosecuted for him jabbing her dog in the eye with a stick.

squoosh Mon 22-Jul-13 00:00:38

It's not about blame, it's about teaching the child that certain actions may provoke certain reactions.

Donnadoon Mon 22-Jul-13 00:01:25

And blinding it!!

Summerblaze Mon 22-Jul-13 00:06:28

DS1 has developmental delay and other issues. He adores dogs and always wants to fuss them. I have drummed it in to him that he must ask the owner for permission before stroking them and always stand behind him constantly reassuring him to be gentle which he usually is. However he is unpredictable at times and if we are walking to school, him in front as I am holding all the bags and the hand of DS2 and he spots a dog, he is off and sometimes forgets to ask. As I am shouting not to forget to ask and picking up DS2 to run after him, I am occasionally too late. All the dogs he has come across have been ok but although I agree they need to learn, dog owners should also be vigilant with these situations too.

SarahAndFuck Mon 22-Jul-13 00:08:20

I'm sorry, I just realised I'm talking to someone whose first comment on this thread was say the best way to be safe around a dog is to hit it with a big stick.

So the thread was started to ask if it's unreasonable to expect parents to teach their children not to approach strange dogs on leads without permission from the owner.

And the replies were fairly typically "no that's not unreasonable" until one posters first comment went straight from "dog on lead" to "dog ripping faces off" and another posters first comment decided that beating dogs with sticks is the best way to train them.

And yet these same posters are saying the dog owners are in full froth?

Seriously? I have to agree that you seem to be totally ignoring the topic of the thread and goading for the sake of a bunfight if you seriously think that talk of ripping off faces and beating dogs with sticks is in keeping with the thread topic or a reasonable, rational, sane response to it. hmm

Lazyjaney Mon 22-Jul-13 00:09:13

You are deliberately ignoring the scenario posed in the op and repeated throughout. Goading and troll hunting must be a fav pass time for you cos rationality clearly isn't

Actually, Ive been protesting against the OP and her coteries' proposition and scenarios for 16 pages now. I have said repeatedly that a view where other parents are responsible for ensuring your dog doesn't bite their kids in public places is daft, and I have pointed out repeatedly that the law doesn't work that way, and this erroneous belief will leave them liable to prosecution if their dog does bite and injure a child

I think I have been arguing fairly rationally, using facts and that, under some fairly extreme provocation and abuse.

You, on the other hand, have basically spent 15 pages insulting me and calling me a troll for daring to disagree.

mathanxiety Mon 22-Jul-13 00:12:29

MrsWolowitz, you missed what I was saying. With the best supervision in the world a small child can tick off a dog just as they can knock over a display in a supermarket or rip a magazine in a doctor's waiting room or throw a tantrum. Even a child in a buggy can reach out an arm and grab a passing dog. They are unpredictable. Nobody can say for certain that their children will be supervised 100% of the time even with a parent present and sober and wide awake and with every intention of supervising closely.

Unless your dog is completely predictable in every situation you anticipate encountering then you need to watch out closely and anticipate the actions of small children just as much as you expect parents to. The price of your freedom to be out enjoying your pet and getting some exercise shouldn't be the possibility of damage or disfigurement of someone else's child. I don't think any responsible dog owners would seriously want that.

I supervised all of mine til I was blue in the face, and even when they were teenagers I still spent my time out with them all doing mental headcounts to five, and constantly checking what they were doing. It becomes second nature. But it takes a split second while you perhaps blow your nose or retrieve a hat dropped onto the ground for a small child to bolt into the road or off to investigate some shiny object or a dog that takes their fancy. A split second.

There are many things I thought I taught them over the years but it turned out that when the situation arose in .001% of the situations they found themselves in they made the wrong decision. DD2 looked the wrong way when crossing the road at age 8 -- a bright girl who lost her head for one moment and could have been killed if a driver hadn't been alert. DS set off a car alarm thinking the car he tried to open was mine. DD1 ran out on the street after a ball that wasn't even hers and nearly got killed.

The split second it takes for a child to make the wrong decision is the time when other adults need to be looking out and dog owners are no exception. You would look out for the safety of small children if you saw them playing near a busy road or dashing out from behind parked cars in a car park -- responsible adults would intervene and try to get them out of danger or back into the care of their caregiver. When you are out with your dog you should be equally watchful.

There is a first time for everything.

Donnadoon Mon 22-Jul-13 00:22:24

Yep mathanxiety everything you've said is fair doos
But this thread has been excalated to children doing what the hell they like to dogs because ha ha they can be PTS

babyhmummy01 Mon 22-Jul-13 00:27:02

sarah and therein lies the issue. She is refusing to actually discuss the issue posed and instead is goading and then getting arsey when people lose their temper about the utter rubbish she is posting!

Lazyjaney Mon 22-Jul-13 00:35:22

Yep mathanxiety everything you've said is fair doos. But this thread has been excalated to children doing what the hell they like to dogs because ha ha they can be PTS

That's crap and you know it.

I have been pointing out till I'm blue in the face, for 16 pages, against some extreme abuse from you and others it must be said, that ultimately it doesn't matter - a dog owner whose dog bites a child in a public place is always liable and that expecting other parents to be able to train their kids to ensure your dog wont bite them is just not credible.

It's not ha ha they can be PTS, it's that you have to take responsibility for your dog in public, because you will be liable.

Donnadoon Mon 22-Jul-13 00:47:52

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tabulahrasa Mon 22-Jul-13 00:48:37

Summerblaze - shouting at your DS to remember to ask would count just as much as your DS asking for me.

With a friendly well socialised dog it's just about having enough time to know that someone's about to stroke your dog so that you can make them sit in my case or make sure that you're paying attention so that no-one gets licked who might not appreciate or accidentally shoved as the dog turns round.

KhaosandKalamity Mon 22-Jul-13 00:48:45

It's not just the children though, I have full grown adults approach my dog and start patting her without asking first, which is fine as she is harmless, but she has some bad habits (licking and jumping) and when she does this to people and we tell her off they always pipe in "oh that's fine I don't mind." Sorry but I don't give a shit that you don't mind the slobber all over you, I mind very much so that you are undermining my training as not everyone wants to be licked, and the dog does not understand "you may not lick anyone except for this person".

Our neighbours have children that love our dog, so we went over and let them have a pat and a play while I taught them a bit about doggy body language, how to approach strange dogs, and what to do if you feel threatened or are attacked by a dog. I have always wished this was covered in the school curriculum, it would only take an hour to teach.

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 22-Jul-13 00:49:09

<eye roll>

You are wrong, Lazyjaney, provocation is taken into account.

No-one is claiming that dog owners do have a responsibility to control and train our dogs. All we are trying to point out is that it is not our responsibility to stop your child from approaching our dogs. It is your child, your responsibility. It this really that hard to understand? Do you have issues understanding a lot of basic concepts or just when it comes to taking responsibility for your own children. Is it for example up to shop keepers to teach your child not steal? Is the responsibility of the council to supervise your child in the council run pool?

Of course, if a dog is aggressive with children and an univited child walks up to the dog the dog owner should make every effort to avoid and forewarn the child, but this thread is not about aggressive dogs.

It is basic manners to teach your child to ask before petting a dog, or not allow it to happen at all. It is sensible, if you are going to let your child stroke a dog, to teach them how to do it gently or warn the owner before they let your child touch their dog that he/she is not always gentle.

This thread is, or rather was, until you popped, about under control, leashed dogs being given unwanted attentions from children who were not under the supervision of their carer. OP and others are perfectly within their rights to not want this to happen and wish that the parents would teach their children some manners and basic common sense around themselves and their pets.

mathanxiety Mon 22-Jul-13 00:57:28

this thread has been excalated to children doing what the hell they like to dogs because ha ha they can be PTS

Only in your head, Donnadoon.

SarahAndFuck Mon 22-Jul-13 00:57:39

It does matter, because responsibility is not just about liability.

You are responsible for your child. It is better to try to teach your child to avoid situations that might lead to them being harmed.

It costs you nothing to say to your child "Don't touch that dog unless it's owner says it's okay" because that helps the owner fulfil their responsibility to keep their dog under proper control. That's not to say that your child would deserve to be bitten but they are less likely to be bitten if they are aware of how to behave around dogs and usually the best person to teach them that is a responsible parent.

Everybody benefits from both parties taking proper care. In the same way they do if you tell your child not to run into the road without looking.

Are you seriously saying that you wouldn't wish you had said that to your child if he or she was bitten by a dog they had run up to and grabbed? Would your first thought really be "at least I'm not liable for this"?

And really, really don't tell them that if they see a stray dog running about the best thing to do is approach it and beat it with a stick. It's not likely that a dog will attack them if they leave it alone, and even a dog being hit with a stick will try to get away before it will attack. But if anything is going to make an otherwise peaceful dog bite someone, it's attacking it with a stick for no reason.

mathanxiety Mon 22-Jul-13 01:06:32

It is a dog owner's responsibility to socialise a dog properly and to decide, with the welfare of all other people in mind, whether their dog is a suitable candidate for being taken out to places where they are likely to encounter people, including children. If your dog gets nervous to the point of being close to biting when children approach then you should not take the dog out where there are children, and if you must then you need to train the dog some more and/or keep him on a lead and very close.

Khaos, people are only saying they don't mind because they are polite and don't want to either hurt your feelings or deal with a strange dog whom they have no experience with. They do not want your dog to jump up at them or lick them, and you should not bring a dog out if he still has some 'bad habits' when people approach. It is not up to other people to understand what stage of training your dog has reached. When people see a dog out with its owner they assume the dog is fit to be taken out among people. It is up to you to make more responsible decisions about when to take your not-completely-trained-yet dog out.

Donnadoon Mon 22-Jul-13 01:07:17

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Donnadoon Mon 22-Jul-13 01:09:13

My dog just wants to sniff and piss up trees in peace
Keep your kids running up with sticks under control
How difficult is it ?
My dog is always ALWAYS under control

mathanxiety Mon 22-Jul-13 01:09:21

As the only completely frothing at the mouth poster here that I have seen, I think it is actually you who are the minority, Donnadoon.

Donnadoon Mon 22-Jul-13 01:13:02

Because its this entitledness that kids can treat dogs how they like
Makes me sick
Poor dogs are abused enough in this shitty society

tabulahrasa Mon 22-Jul-13 01:13:05

mathanxiety - of course it's a dog owner's responsibility to train and socialise a dog...but you can only do that by taking them into places with people.

Personally if I had a dog that was liable to snap at someone just because they got too close or stroked them in a normal way I'd have it muzzled in public, but I d

babyhmummy01 Mon 22-Jul-13 01:13:32

My dog is on a lead math and kept close. Doesn't stop irresponsible idiots charging up to fuss her without warning which is what the post was originally about.

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 22-Jul-13 01:15:20

math, how do you propose these dogs ever become trained if they are not allowed out in public, for people to be able to train them on how to behave in public? confused

And again, this thread is about dogs on leads, Khaos was explaining that her dog, whilst on it's lead is approached by adults who encourage it to misbehave, despite her requesting that they don't. She does not let her dog approach and then jump on people, people come up to her dog and then allow it jump on them, despite her protestations.

Children should not touch dogs without first asking, just as it is a driver's responsibility to be aware of pedestrians stepping into the road suddenly, but children should still be taught not to step into the road without looking both ways. It is common sense and decency.

tabulahrasa Mon 22-Jul-13 01:15:22

Sorry hit post by accident in my phone.

But it has been said on this thread that if a child runs up and inserts their hand into a dog's mouth (which has happened to me more than once) then if the dog bites down in surprise then the dog owner is at fault.

SarahAndFuck Mon 22-Jul-13 01:16:20

But what's wrong with you helping the dog owners to do that by also teaching your children the best way to approach a dog and it's owner Math?

In the same way that you would teach them other aspects of personal safety or even just basic politeness. Because actually most dogs won't bite if approached, but it's still polite to ask about petting them first.

RonaldMcDonald Mon 22-Jul-13 01:17:10

I think that dog owners should realise that not everyone sees their animal as anything more than an animal

I don't see his 'personality' or 'sweetness'. I see a dog looking up to ( sometimes ) the guy in charge of dinner.

I think all dogs should be muzzled in public spaces.

I was a very happy dog owner btw

SarahAndFuck Mon 22-Jul-13 01:36:48

But in the case set out by the OP, it's not about what the dog owners realise.

It's not about someone not liking their dog and the owner thinking they should like it and see it's personality and sweetness.

It's about a child running up to pet a dog on a lead, so perhaps liking it too much, when the dog or more likely the owner doesn't want them to just run up and grab it.

That's what the OP is saying. Her dog is an animal and a stranger has no way to tell if it's a friendly one or not. She keeps it on a lead and would appreciate parents helping her out by explaining to their children that they should ask before they touch it.

The best way to find out if you can safely pet a strange dog is to ask first, not grab.

My dogs don't mind being petted by strangers but I like to have the opportunity to get down to dog/child level and hold them still while a child strokes them. I feel better, the dogs know they are safe, the children get the chance to gently stroke the cute puppy and the funny looking older one.

And I don't have to worry that someone is standing in the background thinking "liability" at me while their children leap all over the dogs.

GoshAnneGorilla Mon 22-Jul-13 01:46:24

Ronald - Quite. If all dogs were muzzled in public, there would be no biting ever. Problem solved.

Having seen exactly what a dog can do to a child in my previous job, I find it very, very hard so be quite so sanguine about a "frightened" or "nervous" dog who "snaps" or "bites".

Mostly, I find the level of vitriol posted by some so-called dog lovers to be rather disturbing.

Disagreeing with you about how wonderful dogs are is not being goady or a troll.

Finally, it is disturbing the number of excuses some are making here for canine aggression. I grew up with a dog. My mum spent a lot of time training her so that we could take anything off her without growling. It was clear that any aggression from her would have been unacceptable and if she bit anyone, she would be PTS, so it was in everyone's interest that we ensured it never happened. She lived to a ripe old age.

Yet, elsewhere on here I've heard all sorts of excuses and justifications for dogs being aggressive towards children in the same house, which I find baffling and sad.

KhaosandKalamity Mon 22-Jul-13 02:35:47

Actually Max these people really do not mind the licking, they go so far as to continue to put their hands INSIDE my dogs mouth, why? because they think it is wonderful that they can and want to test her training.

Why would you make assumptions about people you have never met in a situation you were not a part of?

KhaosandKalamity Mon 22-Jul-13 03:00:03

Sheesh Max should have read your post more thoroughly, these people are already interacting with my dog, of their own choice, they approach us and actively encourage the dog to lick.

She has never jumped on a person while out walking as we keep her on a short lead when people approach.

To suggest that we do not walk our dog as she has some habits that we are actively training her out of, especially when sociallising on walks is a big part of this training is ridiculous. Dogs need to be exercised regardless of their level of training, this is why we have leads and dog owners take all steps to ensure that their dogs are under control. An energetic dog that is not walked because people like you deem it to be unfit to be allowed in public is far more dangerous than a dog that has been exercised.

This post seems to have moved far from the original point which is people approaching dogs who are on leads and under control.

For the record my dog is thoroughly trained and will happily let anyone put their hands in her mouth, poke her in the eyes and tug on her ears and tail without reacting, she will not snap of growl if you take her food away, and will drop food if told to. As I type our kitten is wrapped around her face with one paw in her eye and chewing on her ear, this happens daily and the dog happily lies there and takes it, the cat has hurt her before and when he does she will yelp and come sit by me to remove herself from the situation. Despite all of this training she is still thoroughly supervised with both children and cats.

KhaosandKalamity Mon 22-Jul-13 03:06:07

Sorry that should have been directed at Math not Max.

mathanxiety Mon 22-Jul-13 05:03:23

But what's wrong with you helping the dog owners to do that by also teaching your children the best way to approach a dog and it's owner Math?

Absolutely nothing. But a dog owner shouldn't assume all children know how to approach a dog or whether to approach a dog, and if a child gets it wrong they shouldn't assume a child hasn't been told. Children get carried away sometimes.

Khaos, you could take your dog to a place where you are not likely to encounter many people perhaps, until she stops jumping up and licking people? How is the dog going to know who wants to be licked and who doesn't? If this is one of the habits you are training her out of you must have some inkling that it is an undesireable habit or otherwise why bother trying to stop it? The best thing to do is discourage the dog from licking, and jumping and keeping her away from places where you are likely to find a lot of people in the meantime.

As to assumptions -- thank you for the dripfeed about people putting their hands in your dog's mouth to test her training hmm but I personally do not enjoy getting muddy pawprints on my clothes when dogs jump up to greet me, and I do not like getting licked by dogs when I am out. I smile and say 'what a lovely doggie' or some such rhubarb but deep down I am wondering how much scrubbing the mud will take. I do not know anyone who would truly enjoy this.

mathanxiety Mon 22-Jul-13 05:17:12

It's about a child running up to pet a dog on a lead, so perhaps liking it too much, when the dog or more likely the owner doesn't want them to just run up and grab it.

That's what the OP is saying. Her dog is an animal and a stranger has no way to tell if it's a friendly one or not. She keeps it on a lead and would appreciate parents helping her out by explaining to their children that they should ask before they touch it.

SarahandFuck -- what you are describing is essentially what is known as an 'attractive nuisance'.

You might as well leave an unfenced swimming pool during a heatwave and put a sign out front that said 'No Swimming in the Pool in the Back Garden --->'.

She has no business taking her dog out if it's not friendly and strangers she encounters can't be faulted for assuming that if her dog is not friendly, or nervous about strangers, then it would be safely at home and not out and about among strangers. It would be incredibly irresponsible to take an unfriendly dog out to a place where unpredictable small children would be encountered.

Owners here on this thread have chipped in time and time again with tales of children running up to their dogs and trying to touch them. It surely must have dawned on them by this point that some children find dogs fascinating. Yet even though they worry about their dogs' response they persist in thinking it is a good idea to take the dogs out among children.

If a dog is not friendly and socialised to the extent that taking it out among children would require, then the dog should not be out in places where children tend to go. If it is friendly and well socialised then the OP has nothing to worry about, right?

Tabularasa -- You can have a dog professionally trained and socialised without using the general public as training props or guinea pigs.

mathanxiety Mon 22-Jul-13 05:44:21

Dooin She does not let her dog approach and then jump on people, people come up to her dog and then allow it jump on them, despite her protestations.

This is utter baloney.
Her dog is doing something she doesn't want it to do and that means her dog is not fully trained. In the highly unlikely case where people are saying 'jump' to the dog then it would be understandable that the dog would jump up at them, but according to you this dog is being 'allowed' by strangers to jump up at them while the owner (who in her later post says her dog is always on a short lead so can't jump) does what -- smiles and says nothing? Tells the dog to get down? It is not the fault of the people who are 'allowing' the dog to jump on them. It is the fault of the owner for inadequately training her dog to keep its feet on the ground and its tongue to itself.

I do not know why Khaos thinks it is the responsibility of strangers who are accosted by her dog to try to fend it off or give it a command to get down that would give the impression that they were flustered by the animal. Most people will grin and bear it in hopes of not coming across as nervous, and will not interfere in how an animal is behaving for fear of treading on an owner's toes or hurting their feelings about a dog they clearly see as an extension of their personality.

People like to appear cool and unfazed and on top of things in the presence of dogs. That is possibly why an adult might put a hand in a dog's mouth. It is considered a bad thing and not very British to appear nervous about dogs if you're an adult, and some people overcompensate for this. Wrt children doing this it's most likely just the fact that the mouth is open that makes them think its ok to do this. Dogs can look as if they are smiling to small children.

Additionally, some dog owners try to reassure people their dogs have jumped on by assuring them the dog is just being friendly - nobody wants to respond to 'friendliness' with words that indicate displeasure or disapproval of what the dog has done. For various reasons they 'allow' the dog to do whatever it can get away with while its ineffectual owner perhaps tries to get it to sit and leave the person alone/stop sniffing the person's bum, etc.

YoniSingWhenYoureWinning Mon 22-Jul-13 05:48:05

Sorry, I see any dog as a potentially dangerous thing that some people choose to take around with them, despite the risk to others. If it bites my child in a public place where my child has a perfectly good right to be, it's your fault for choosing to carry it and I'll have your hide and your dog's too.

This.

KhaosandKalamity Mon 22-Jul-13 06:26:22

I repeat my dog does not lick or jump on people in public, unless someone approaches her and puts their hand in her mouth. I do not allow my dog to have contact with people in public unless they approach us, she is on a lead.

KhaosandKalamity Mon 22-Jul-13 06:32:34

^Her dog is doing something she doesn't want it to do and that means her dog is not fully trained. In the highly unlikely case where people are saying 'jump' to the dog then it would be understandable that the dog would jump up at them, but according to you this dog is being 'allowed' by strangers to jump up at them while the owner (who in her later post says her dog is always on a short lead so can't jump) does what -- smiles and says nothing? Tells the dog to get down? It is not the fault of the people who are 'allowing' the dog to jump on them. It is the fault of the owner for inadequately training her dog to keep its feet on the ground and its tongue to itself.

I do not know why Khaos thinks it is the responsibility of strangers who are accosted by her dog to try to fend it off or give it a command to get down that would give the impression that they were flustered by the animal. Most people will grin and bear it in hopes of not coming across as nervous, and will not interfere in how an animal is behaving for fear of treading on an owner's toes or hurting their feelings about a dog they clearly see as an extension of their personality.^

The dog is being allowed by strangers to lick, she is not being allowed by strangers to jump because she does not get the chance to jump on anyone on walks. My dog does not accost people on walks, the only people that get licked approach us, and they do not get jumped on ever. Unfortunately I cannot clamp the dogs tongue to restrain her from licking.

No one on a walk has to deal with my dog unless they choose to. I don't think you are reading the posts properly.

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 22-Jul-13 06:32:58

Save your typing fingers, Khaos. I think a few posters are deliberately ignoring the fact that we are talking about controlled dogs on leads, just to wind us up. Nothing we do point out how utterly ridiculous they are being by refusing to acknowledge that they have a duty to parent their own child in public and not allow them to harass other members of the public, will get through to them. We used the word "dog" therefore no reasonable discussion can be had, it must be a bun fight. Dog owners will remain mainly calm, while the frothers resort to hyperbole and insults. It will then be the dog owners fault the thread has gone awry hmm

It is going to rain today, I am looking forward to walking my dogs in the rain. Nice and peaceful. What's the weather like where you are and why are you up at this ungodly hour? Is not it school hols where you are yet?

LtEveDallas Mon 22-Jul-13 06:33:37

If it bites my child in a public place where my child has a perfectly good right to be, it's your fault for choosing to carry it and I'll have your hide and your dog's too

Absolutely, no arguement with that.

However, If it bites my child in a public place because my child has run up to it, grabbed it, hurt it and it reacted to fear or pain then I will accept that it is my fault for not teaching my child not to do that.

Or as has happened to me:

If it bites my child in a public place where my child has a perfectly good right to be because I allowed my child to continue to approach despite the owner shouting MY DOG IS NOT FRIENDLY, than I am a damn fool whose child is very lucky the owner has quick reflexes as was able to insert herself between dog and child

KhaosandKalamity Mon 22-Jul-13 06:50:41

I'm well south in NZ so day time here, mid winter so midday walks are perfect, but no swimming fun for us. Gotta love a walk in the rain.

It is just so hard to keep my head when someone says such things about my precious fur baby, say what you like about me but leave the dog out of it, especially when they are misquoting me.

My mum is terrifies of dogs, so I am more cautious than most about keeping her a good distance from people that could be scared, she has a big smile and some huge teeth.

I hope you and your dogs enjoy your walk, I have to go spend some time with the hound as she is getting a bit confused about why mum is so worked up. angry keeps bloody well trying to lick me to cheer me up, not helping at all.

Only on mumsnet (should be a t-shirt).

Another bit of dog education for those that appear to need it. The vast majority of dogs are more nervous on a lead because they are constrained & cannot move away from danger. My dog is quite happy around unknown children off lead but is noticeably nervous of them if approached on lead. It's why I always refuse to allow children to stroke him when he is on a lead.

It's very basic dog psychology which is useful for anyone to know. It's also why often more dog/dog aggression takes place when the dogs are on leads (and why I don't allow my dog to run up to other dogs on leads a) being on a lead is often a sign they don't want to be approached and b) being greeted by an off lead dog when on lead is more likely to lead to a bit of a scrap).

As an adult I am cautious of dogs on leads. I am cautious about my dog approaching dogs on leads. I would have to be some sort of idiot to declare it fine for my children to approach dogs on leads.

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 22-Jul-13 06:59:26

Ah sympathies my mum is scared of rescue dogs, all of my dogs are rescue dogs, therefore they are faulty and she cannot be left alone with them, in case they show their true colours. NOt my rescue Whippy though, she is fine and luvverly. And my last greyhound was also fine luvverly. The two before that greyhound she wanted to adopt. But she still maintains that all rescue dogs are faulty confused

It's before 7am here shock I'm hoping to go swimming, which is why I am up.

Saintly, non dog owners should not have to learn to be sensible around dogs. Just as I, as a non driver, can not be expected to know that walking onto the road without first looking to make sure the road is clear, is not a sensible thing to do. I mean I am not the one who chooses to drive a killing machine, why should I have to spend time learning how to make myself safe around them? If you hit me it will be your fault and I will press charges, so nur!

LtEveDallas Mon 22-Jul-13 07:02:33

It is going to rain today, I am looking forward to walking my dogs in the rain

And me. Up at 0530 this morning to walk at 6. Hopefully the lunchtime walk will actually be at lunchtime today. It's got earlier and earlier over the last couple of weeks.

Math - you don't appear to have much experience with dogs?

I have a young dog who has been trained to ignore people. Which he does. Until someone talks to directly to him when he passes out with excitement. People get down and fuss him and he leaps all over then. They say they don't mind, or tell you they have dogs or tell you they miss having dogs. Or say 'oh he's just young what a beautiful boy'. And while he's leaping around they carry on exciting him by tickling him & laughing. Yesterday a man actually took the lead out of my hand & tried to take him over to his family although MadDog was practically popping with excitement (& anxiety at being taken off me).

I'm afraid you're very much mistaken if you think 'no-one' wants a dog jumping up at them. Many strangers positively encourage it - on purpose - and the makes it impossible hard to train a dog not to over react to greetings from people. Each time it happens it is reinforced by the strangers. My dog is very easy to train, but he does need clear responses. And people reacting with delight to his response to being greeted (& they always do) doesn't help train a calm response to greetings. I would welcome people reacting negatively to his response because it would make it possible easier to train a calm response to greetings but they never have. Not once.

A lot of people love dogs and saying a dog should be shut away because he over reacts to greetings is insane. If you don't want a dog in your lap don't talk to it - mine ignores everyone until the moment they greet him.

As for whoever it was telling their children to beat a stray dog with a stick?? How utterly stupid. Do you want your child attacked or on animal cruelty charges? Do you tell them to beat horses as well (after all horses must kill more people than dogs each year).

Btw I don't take the words to mean someone doesn't mind maddog's ott reaction to being greeted but the fact they continue to pay/stroke/tickle/play with the dog. I'd be delighted if their response was to straighten and give a mealy mouthed 'it's fine' as MadDog would be trained not to overreact to greetings in a week.

Lazyjaney Mon 22-Jul-13 07:23:53

Good Lord LtEve, 16 pages in and you finally agree my initial point was correct, despite you telling me umpteen times I was "100% wrong" all weekend.

As to your second 2 cases, you are still not getting the message. If your dog bites a child, in a public place, regardless of the circumstances, you are liable. It's in black and white on the very Dog Law site you quoted as near gospel, for heavens sake.

You personally clearly believe an errant child being bitten is less important than your doggy's health and welfare, and the child is to blame, but that is because you have the same skewed ethics as all the dog-nuts on this thread.

How many times do i have to repeat that it is not the way most of the rest of humanity looks at the situation, nor the view of the law.

The reality is that most other parents value their kids more than they value your dog, and will act accordingly if their child is bitten. Their reaction is not likely to be chastising their errant little one, and praising your dog for biting it. And you calling them damn fools when their kids are bleeding is not going to help your case, I promise you.

Lazyjaney Mon 22-Jul-13 07:35:22

Another bit of dog education for those that appear to need it....

and

It's very basic dog psychology which is useful for anyone to know....

What will it take to finally get it through your head that other parents don't give a damn about your dog and it's psychology, all they are interested in is their child and it's safety.

crashdoll Mon 22-Jul-13 07:43:22

I feel sorry for your children Lazyjaney "do not touch an animal without asking" is the same as "do not touch the oven" and "look both ways before crossing the road".

Regardless of who is liable if a dog were to bite a child, I'd judge a parent for not being bothered to teach their child not to approach a strange dog.

crashdoll Mon 22-Jul-13 07:44:40

Oddly enough, some of us actually give a shit about your child and wouldn't want a random child hurt. Doesn't mean we want you to allow your child to injure our beloved pet.

LtEveDallas Mon 22-Jul-13 07:47:17

lazy, you know you are wrong and yet you still post complete and utter bollocks. Why on earth, when you don't actually have any young children are you so insistent that teaching young children how to behave around dogs is wrong?

Is that not the very definition of trolling?

Er lazy - you are very rude. But the main point of teaching dog psychology is to reduce risk to children or adults. Likewise I teach my children not to stand right up the arse of a horse - for obvious reasons & because I know a little about horse behaviour. It's the same.

I do teach children road safety as well. Although in ds1's case he isn't safe around roads so is always held near traffic.

I am interested in what people teach their children about horses. We come across horses regularly - including on the beach & wild ponies on the moors. Do you teach a) nothing b) to ignore and give plenty of space or c) to approach, stand up it's backside and whack it with a stick because if you're hurt it's someone else's fault.

Or do we only save the stupidity of doing a or c for dogs.

curlew Mon 22-Jul-13 08:09:31

Look. It all boils down to this. 1) Parents should teach their children how to behave around animals, and around cars and around swimming pools and other potentially dangerous things. However. 2)The owners of animals and cars and swimming pools and other dangerous things should behave as is if a child has not been taught how to behave around said dangerous things just in case the child hasn't, or has and forgets.

Lazyjaney Mon 22-Jul-13 08:23:09

lazy, you know you are wrong and yet you still post complete and utter bollocks. Why on earth, when you don't actually have any young children are you so insistent that teaching young children how to behave around dogs is wrong?

I'm not wrong, you are living in a doggy distortion bubble where the rights of dogs supersede humans. In the real world they don't (btw i note you've finally agreed with me upthread, despite you saying I was "100% wrong" all weekend)

My point, which you seem completely unable to grasp after 3 days and 17 pages, is that whether I train my child or not is largely irrelevant, and the responsibility for safety still ultimately remains with the dog owner. This is because kids are kids, and cannot be totally controlled for the convenience of dog owners - and very importantly, in public spaces are not expected to be.

They will make mistakes no matter how well taught they are, but in places where they have a right to be, you are going to be liable.

LtEveDallas Mon 22-Jul-13 08:31:22

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

I think lazy there's a difference between a child who has been taught but made a mistake & a child whose parents have refused to teach their child anything about dogs & reacts to advice on how to be safe around dogs negatively and aggressively.

I agree with curlew that I need to assume that a child hasn't been taught and that is why I tell children not to stroke him when he is on his lead and don't assume they have been taught that. I appreciate it if a parent then backs me up on that. To be fair the majority do & many apologise to me as well.

So if a parent backs me up or says nothing it's fine as far as I'm concerned. Providing their child is now giving us some space. If a parent responded by telling their child they don't have to listen & can approach any dog they like & have no responsibility towards anything that happens to them because it's always some

One else's fault then I would think they were insane. Each to their own though I guess.

Lazyjaney Mon 22-Jul-13 08:59:40

I think lazy there's a difference between a child who has been taught but made a mistake & a child whose parents have refused to teach their child anything about dogs & reacts to advice on how to be safe around dogs negatively and aggressively

In what way different? is one child going to be found innocent if your dog bites it and the other not?

There is no difference in reality. As a dog owner in a public place you are always liable, irrespective of the child's "training". You have to assume the worst case.

Lazyjaney Mon 22-Jul-13 09:02:37

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Well usually the child who has been taught has sane parents. So when for example ds3 was kicked by a horse, being sane & able to see what had happened it was clear that the last in line for blame was the owner or horse.

Tbh with sensible dog owners, children who listen whether to owner or parents & sensible parents I can't really see there's going to be a problem anyway. Unless of course some idiot had taught their child they should beat any strange dog they see with a stick.

itsonlysubterfuge Mon 22-Jul-13 09:18:35

I agree you should teach children about dogs and asking permission. When I was growing up and I gave my dog a walk children would always ask permission to pet my "wolf", she was a husky and most children and teenagers were afraid of her.

loopydoo Mon 22-Jul-13 09:21:16

Completely agree about teaching your child to respect dogs and not go newr without checking th owner.....although whilst you say your dog loves fuss etc, no dog can be trusted.

My daughter if freaked out by big dogs (she is 11) as a young terrier type dog in Germany ran and jumped up at her when she was 1. She loves little dogs now which we are pleased about because we didn't want that one occasion to put her off forever. We just always tell them not to go near dogs unless they ask.

LtEveDallas Mon 22-Jul-13 09:27:46

No it's not. Do you have comprehension issues? I really don't want to get into a bun fight with someone unable to understand, but I'm quite happy to point out when a GF is simply being a GF.

The Dangerous Dogs Act states:

If a dog is dangerously out of control in a public place—
(a) the owner; and
(b) if different, the person for the time being in charge of the dog, is guilty of an offence, or, if the dog while so out of control injures any person, an aggravated offence, under this subsection^ (House of Commons Library, 2013 <online>)

The key words there are dangerously out of control and if the dog, whilst out of control

A dog on a lead is NOT dangerously out of control and will not be automatically PTS unless the owner wishes that to happen.

GoshAnneGorilla Mon 22-Jul-13 09:39:52

Why would you take a dog out in public, who is "NOT FRIENDLY" without them wearing a muzzle?

That seems very irresponsible to me and yet another example of thinking dogs have equal/greater rights then humans.

babybythesea Mon 22-Jul-13 09:41:25

"Babybythesea, you are talking about a child of about 8 right?"

"Babybythesea you held on to your dogs collar, just in case. Most owners don't. They would respond in a sure it's fine, when actually you can see their dog with its tail between its legs looking not very happy. If you don't know the owner then don't ask. It's rude to ask too mrsw. I quite like babies but I don't go up to random people asking to hold their baby yet its acceptable to ask to stroke their dog."

Come back to this this morning - wow, it's still running. People asked me questions after I'd gone to bed. So I'll answer them.

Yes, the child was about 8. But she knew to ask without prompting by an adult. Which suggests she's been taught it from the get-go. My own DD is 4 and also always asks, because I've taught her. (And endured the tantrums when she wouldn't ask and I've refused to let her stroke the dog). And when she was a toddler and learning to talk, she wasn't usually so far away from me that I couldn't grab her hand and stop her approaching until she'd asked (and I'd translated). Surely with toddlers they are nearer to you and you watch them more to make sure they don't hurt themselves (you watch a toddler on a climbing frame far more closely than you would supervise the 8 year old) and then as they get bigger and can be more trusted to remember things that's when they stray further - not just dog-related but this is also what you do on the roads, near hot ovens etc etc.

I'm not sure about the second point. Most people I've come across have said no if the dog doesn't want to be touched. We see lots of dogs out on dog walks with our own, and we've had everything from "Sure he loves it" to "no, he's really not keen on small kids" to "This one's fine, that one over there isn't". I've yet to see a situation like you describe - a dog owner allowing a child to pet when the dog is clearly unhappy. That is where danger would lie and that is irresponsible. I'm a dog owner, my dog loves a fuss (unlike the baby who does not like being passed around). It's really isn't rude to just check with me first.

GoshAnneGorilla Mon 22-Jul-13 09:45:34

Also, a dog on a lead can most certainly be out if control. How many times have you seen someone being pulled along by their dog? Or unable to pull their dog away from something?

A "not friendly" dog could quite easily sink their teeth into a passing person, on a lead or not - especially it is one of those long retractable leads.

And we've also had armchair dog psychologist s on here tell us that leads make some dogs moire anxious anyway, thus denting your theory further.

LtEveDallas Mon 22-Jul-13 09:49:34

Why would you take a dog out in public, who is "NOT FRIENDLY" without them wearing a muzzle?

Dog was being walked on MOD land. Parent and child should not have been there. When training abused dogs socialisation is important, and yes, I would use a muzzle in a public place.

LtEveDallas Mon 22-Jul-13 09:53:12

A "not friendly" dog could quite easily sink their teeth into a passing person, on a lead or not - especially it is one of those long retractable leads

And that would be a dog that was not under control, therefore a completely different thread and not what the OPs discussion was here.

babybythesea Mon 22-Jul-13 09:59:43

"My point, which you seem completely unable to grasp after 3 days and 17 pages, is that whether I train my child or not is largely irrelevant, and the responsibility for safety still ultimately remains with the dog owner. This is because kids are kids, and cannot be totally controlled for the convenience of dog owners - and very importantly, in public spaces are not expected to be."

It's not irrelevant though lazey, because if you train your child there is a massively reduced risk of your child being hurt. So why wouldn't you? It's not fool-proof, obviously, because young children do forget, but they also forget about cars being things that hurt and I assume you take steps to avoid that risk? It is nothing whatsoever to do with my dog being more important than your child - I'd be mortified if my dog bit. But if I have her on a lead, walking to heel, and your child smacks her one because you've failed to teach it the basics of 'ask before you touch and don't hit' then I'd be beyond angry (the dog is unlikely to react - I know, she got kicked once in the situation I describe and didn't do anything beyond try to run away, which of course she couldn't because I had her on a lead. I did something though which just fell short of lamping the kid who'd done it), and I'd be even worse if you insisted the dog was PTS< simply because you haven't taught your child to behave with a bit of common decency.

Again, it's like cars. If you teach your child not to run into the road, it won't guarantee they will never forget and it won't keep them safe from the lunatic who mounts the pavement but it significantly helps to keep them from harm. Why are you so resistant to teaching your child a little bit (not a full textbook of dog psychology, but a very simple 'ask first, be gentle') of behaviour that might just stop them ever being bitten?

You seem to be trying to offload responsibility for your children on to everyone else. I definitely have responsibility towards others for the behaviour of my dog - I take it seriously and have trained her and keep her under control. But you also have responsibilities as a parent and at the moment you are behaving as if your children are everybody else's responsibility which is what is annoying all the dog owners. My dog has no reason to be your child's punchbag, whatever your child feels like. And so far you haven't acknowledged that, you've just kept saying "Whatever the child does" without saying that children don't actually have the right to do whatever they want. Accidents and slips happen, for sure, but they are less likely if kids do generally know what to do, compared to how often this might happen if kids aren't taught.

It's not frothing, it's reading someone's posts who seems to be saying "My children are allowed to do whatever they want but if they come to any harm as a result it is your fault". Do you also blame the manufacturers of fire-works if your kids get burnt when they play with them, or do you teach them not to play with fireworks? Do you blame a car driver if your child runs out into the road, or do you teach your child not to run out?

Gosh - I'm not an armchair dog psychologist.Dogs on leads are fine & in control but may react differently if approached very close & they feel constrained. This is just basic dog psychology. Most owners are well aware of it & know how their dog is likely to react in different situations.

Same as if you spend any time around horses it helps to remember they are prey animals & see the world from their eyes. It helps prevent problems.

Threefurrymonsters Mon 22-Jul-13 10:06:53

babybythesea great and rational post smile
Unfortunately you appear to be speaking to someone who has a massive sense of entitlement to go through life with arms like windmills, expecting everyone and everything to fall into line with her way of thinking and that when life doesn't quite go according to plan, it's always, always someone else's fault because she is always, ALWAYS right.

I do find this 'la la la' response to advice about behaviour around dogs to be hard to understand. We didn't get a dog until ds1 was about 11, I still wanted the kids to learn how to behave around dogs before then.

Canidae Mon 22-Jul-13 10:13:24

This thread is getting nowhere and honestly all I am imagining is Lazy shoving unsuspecting children into the path of unsuspecting dogs just to try and prove her point!

Lol me too - that's why I keep trying to find out whether she shoves stick wielding children into the paths of horses as well.

squoosh Mon 22-Jul-13 10:20:10

I agree, people are being deliberately obtuse and pointedly ignoring common sense in order to give full vent to their rage.

Happily though, dogs aren't going anywhere so let people froth away as much as pleases them.

SarahAndFuck Mon 22-Jul-13 10:27:47

"She has no business taking her dog out if it's not friendly"

Where did the OP say her dog was not friendly? That's been the whole problem with the thread.

The OP has said she doesn't want her friendly, leashed dog jumped on by strange children and straight away the hysteria about her dog ripping off faces started. One person has advocated beating dogs with sticks.

OP hasn't said her dog is unfriendly, she's said that other people shouldn't just grab her dog and that one of the reasons they shouldn't do so is because they don't know if a dog is friendly unless they ask.

There are other reasons, besides the friendliness or unfriendliness of the dog, why people shouldn't just grab them.

ICBINEG Mon 22-Jul-13 10:32:03

Kids should be taught to respect animals and to never intentionally hurt them.

If that removed the risk of dogs to children then I would be happy with the status quo.

But dogs do bite and attack children that were not doing anything wrong or anything that could be expected by the child (or parent) to draw such a reaction.

I have been bitten myself under such circumstances.

How does it help the bitten child (or parent) that the dog could have been better trained, or muzzled?

It doesn't.

The only thing that would help is it not happening. The only way to guarantee that is to prevent chance encounters of children with dogs.

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 22-Jul-13 10:32:35

It is not just about the child's safety though, it is basic manners.

When I walk my dogs I am often on my lunch break and thus in a hurry, I do not have time to stop and entertain your child just because I have a dog with me. If they ask I can reply "Sorry, darling, I am in a rush today, another time maybe" Or "Yes, but only for a wee while because I need to get back to work soon. The black doggy likes children, but don't touch the white one, he's sometimes grumpy" however if your child simply runs up to me and plonks themselves on the floor in front of me I am not always able to get away in time, or warn them in time not to touch the white dog, who would not be aggressive to children, but does not actively like them and looks at me with big, sad "stop them please" eyes, when children harass him, he is only interested in walking and peeing up bushes, he does not want to meet your child, as lovely as he or she may be. Ditto if your child runs up to me and grabs hold of one of my dogs, I don't have time to have to stop to physically extract my dogs from your child's arms.

Also I get children following me, like I am some kind of dog owning pied piper. I get very wary about continuing walking and taking them too far away from their parents, who are not always watching them as closely as they should be.

Sometimes I have my headphones in and have to take them out to respond to the child, meaning they can her my music through the now dangling round my neck headphones. I don't want to have to explain to your child what a threesome is when they hear P!nk belting out what she wants to do now her partner has left her.

One of my dogs is a very fragile breed, so I'd appreciate a heads up if your child does not yet know not to push down with all their might or pat her as hard as they can, not because she might bite, but because her bones are easily broken and whilst she is insured I can assure you that if your child injures my dog because you were not paying close enough attention to them, it will not be me paying the excess on the insurance.

When I am clearly out running, but happen to have a dog with me, I am running. You would not let your child approach runner without a dog to ask them about their phone/ipod/running shoes, so don't let them approach me to ask about my dog, ditto when I am cycling and happen to have a dog with me.

If my dog is taking a shite and I am busy getting a shite bag and not paying attention to the not shitting dog, do not let your child simply walk over and start petting my dogs, because without my attention and commands the small one will try to climb on your child's lap and lick their face, if you ask I can show them how to pet her without her doing this. The white dog will try and avoid your child, which ime, upsets them (the children not the dog)

All that said I do try and be polite with children, despite the fact that I am not always fond of other people's children, as is my right, but if you are the fifth person to get in front of me in as many minutes and just start manhandling my "puppy" who is actually just a very small adult dog, don't be surprised if I am short with you and curtly ask you to leave us alone.

If I notice that a child is wary but clearly longing to stroke my "puppy" I will always try and stop to make time for them. Lots of parents have expressed grateful surprise when their usually terrified of dogs child takes an interest in getting close to my puppy and later tell me that that experience with my 'puppy' helped their child immensely in dealing with their fear. I know a fear of dogs is always upsetting for children and their parents so I am happy to help if I have time.

I have a right to enjoy public spaces without being harassed by other people's children, having a cute dog with me does not negate that right. Just be respectful, that is all I ask and in return I will make sure my dogs are respectful of your right to enjoy public spaces without harassment from them.