To have mentioned this to nursery

(108 Posts)
Weissbier Wed 17-Jul-13 12:37:07

Nursery have a work experience guy who came up to me at the summer party to say how sweet he thought DD was. In these words: "I wanted to find her parents today to inform them I'm taking her home with me!"

I mentioned it to the nursery manager - said I was sure it was nothing to worry about but both DH and I had felt uncomfortable, and could she confirm work exp. people were not left alone with the children? (My point being, such remarks reveal they are not professionals and they should only be working with the children according to their experience and training).

She confirmed they weren't alone with the children, so that was fine, but I also had to listen to a quarter of an hour about how I needed to think less because the guy was a nice person...which I'm sure he is...

megsmouse Wed 17-Jul-13 12:38:22

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NarkyNamechanger Wed 17-Jul-13 12:39:41

You are completely overreacting.

Did you take his comments literally?

I quite often tell people I'll swap my dc for theirs if one is being a bit difficult but I don't mean it...

NarkyNamechanger Wed 17-Jul-13 12:40:36

Oh and I'm a childminder (degree qualified)!

AmyFarrahFowlerCooper Wed 17-Jul-13 12:41:17

It sounds like a joke that you wouldn't have reacted to had it been a female work experience person.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 17-Jul-13 12:41:28

Would you have had the same reaction if he'd been female?

I think you need to lighten up. You are being ridiculous.

HenriettaPye Wed 17-Jul-13 12:41:44


I'm sure you wouldn't have said anything if it was a female hmm

Weissbier Wed 17-Jul-13 12:41:56

Oh dear. I asked a few people before I said anything who all thought it was out of line...another member of staff had said he was "head over heels" about dd earlier in the week

FoofFighter Wed 17-Jul-13 12:42:13

would you have been bothered if it were a woman saying it though?

maja00 Wed 17-Jul-13 12:43:08

Your reaction sounds very odd.

I work in a nursery and have often joked to parents about taking a child home with me, or doing a swap! It's a nice, light hearted and pretty common thing to say to express fondness for a child.

exexpat Wed 17-Jul-13 12:44:10

Do you really think he would have said that to you if he had any intention of abducting her? hmm

It sounds to me like a perfectly normal, jokey way of saying that he enjoys looking after your daughter. I would have laughed, and possibly said 'you're welcome - can I bring her round next time she's having a tantrum?' or something like that.

freemanbatch Wed 17-Jul-13 12:46:57

staff at my daughters nursery have joked like that since the first one started, male and female staff and I have to admit that the first time a male member of staff said it I flinched more than I ever have at the female staff saying it but I didn't say anything to him or anyone else because I knew it was my issue.

I think you reacted more because he's male to be honest

JedwardScissorhands Wed 17-Jul-13 12:47:18

If you ask people in RL whether they think something is out of order, they will probably just agree with you for the sake of the conversation. I often give a 'hmm, yes...' response in such situations. It is quite confrontational to say 'actually, you need to get over yourself'.

I agree with everyone else here. YABU and sexist.

Weissbier Wed 17-Jul-13 12:47:32

I would have been less bothered about a woman saying it, yes, because a man usually is more careful and therefore it sounded odder. But I would still have thought it odd to express particular fondness for one child over another.

HenriettaPye Wed 17-Jul-13 12:48:05

This is ridiculous, and really annoys me.
I worked in a nursery with a guy- he was great, was promoted to deputy manager, all the kids loved him, most of the parents thought he was great, apart from a few that did not want a man looking after their pfbs. They treated him like he was a pedophile and obviously only there to molest children. They said he was not to be alone with their child and taking the child to the toilet or for nappy change was a definite no. In the end the poor guy got so fed up of being treated this way that he gave up that line of work, and retrained in something completely different.

Oh and fwiw- I married him and he's turned out to be the most fantastic daddy ever wink

toomanyfionas Wed 17-Jul-13 12:49:14

He was being kind. You are being ridiculous.

MaryPoppinsBag Wed 17-Jul-13 12:49:59

Some children just have that effect on you. I'm a CM and care for a little girl who I just adore. I have looked after a few other children and she has just clicked with me and after having 2 boys of my own I could just keep her here with me.

It is a compliment about how lovely your little one is. Not something sinister.

I think your reaction would be different if it was a female.

DesperatelySeekingSedatives Wed 17-Jul-13 12:50:09

A few people have said this about my DD. I've said they can pick her up whenever

Someone has taken a shine to your child because in their eyes she is lovely smile take it as a compliment not a threat. I think you feel the way you do because a man said this. I dont think you would have said anything at all if it had been a woman. And I'm pretty sure those telling you it was out of order wouldnt have batted an eyelid if he hadn't been a man.

Poor guy. No doubt when he hears about this he'll feel pretty awkward and embarrassed. It's ok though. If he has any sense he will stay away from your child from now on, just in case you go off on one again.

maja00 Wed 17-Jul-13 12:50:36

He's only expressing fondness for one child to that child's parents though hmm It would be weird if he told other parents that he preferred your child to theirs.

Flobbadobs Wed 17-Jul-13 12:52:40

And this is one reason why men don't in general go into childcare...
Oh and 'such remarks' are made by professionals too. Do you want a man working with your child?

Weissbier Wed 17-Jul-13 12:52:59

I think it's great to have men working in nurseries! But this guy 1) isn't going to become a nursery worker, says he's going to be an electrician 2) finished his work exp and then decided to stay unpaid because he enjoys it so much 3) isn't CRB checked because nursery don't think it's necessary for work exp, and I just thought what he said was a bit inappropriate and worth mentioning in the overall context. Not because I think he's done anything wrong, but because I think they're a bit casual about totally normal codes of practice

daimbardiva Wed 17-Jul-13 12:53:23

This is a quite commonly used phrase, and I'm always chuffed to bits when someone says it about one of our dcs. I feel really sorry for the work experience guy, he probably thought he was paying you a compliment and went out of his way to let you know how lovely your child is.

ThePowerof3 Wed 17-Jul-13 12:55:01

Poor boy, I hope no one else has the audacity to find your DD adorable. It'd be handy if potential abducters announced their intentions

LittleprincessinGOLDrocks Wed 17-Jul-13 12:55:02

YABU. It was his way of saying your child is a pleasure to have at nursery. I have been known to say it in the past about children with a particularly lovely personality. It was a term of endearment, and nothing more based on that statement alone.
If this is the only thing that has made you question him YABU.

toomanyfionas Wed 17-Jul-13 12:55:27

Oh please. Accept it in the spirit with which it was intended and find something else to project your anxieties onto.

FGS - lighten up, the poor bloke was having a joke!!! Would you have been so bothered if one of the women working there had said it?


freddiefrog Wed 17-Jul-13 12:56:23

My DD1's pre-school teacher used to say he wanted to take DD home and put her on his mantelpiece

He liked her, and she adored him. He was just being nice

Weissbier Wed 17-Jul-13 12:56:39

It wasn't in English. The native speakers I asked, other than the nursesry manager, thought it was over the line. But I agree we must have overreacted, I will apologise

Flobbadobs Wed 17-Jul-13 12:57:41

Well they should be doing the crb, ofsted will maul them otherwise! It could be children like yours who persuade a potentially excellent NN to change his career path you know, if he's volunteering and being allowed to stay he's obviously good.

LittleprincessinGOLDrocks Wed 17-Jul-13 12:58:21

I would be complaining that he is not CRB checked. They check scout leaders who volunteer, why not CRB check someone in a nursery?
All student nurses are CRB checked too, so I would see that as a similar comparison as they are checked to cover them for placements.

HeySoulSister Wed 17-Jul-13 12:58:54

Aww is he young? No hope for my ds.... He's 15 and adores little kids, I feel sorry that he can't interact with them without this kind of thing happening

Buzzardbird Wed 17-Jul-13 13:00:12

How do you know he isn't crb checked? And yes Yabu as I'm sure you have worked out by now. Poor guy was probably really upset when they told him sad will you apologize?

MummytoMog Wed 17-Jul-13 13:00:31

YABU. Although I'm a bit hmm about the lack of CRB.

Weissbier Wed 17-Jul-13 13:01:19

Of course I'll apologize sad. Profusely

themonsteratemyspacebar Wed 17-Jul-13 13:01:34

I agree with everyone else, YABU.
All this guy was saying is that he enjoys teaching your daughter and thinks she is adorable. I really don't see a problem with that. He likes her personality and they get on well. Everybody in whatever caring or interactive environment has a soft spot for some people who they just 'click' with.
And the fact that it isnt his final career choice and he volunteers to come in unpaid to help out because he enjoys it, is a problem is it?

Abra1d Wed 17-Jul-13 13:02:39

I suspect OP is in a different country?

Flobbadobs Wed 17-Jul-13 13:02:50

Anyway, you're lucky, no one has offered to take my DC's for years....

MissStrawberry Wed 17-Jul-13 13:02:56

I think it is a bit much that the posters who think the OP was being out of order are also being a tad rude to her.

She heard something she found made her feel uncomfortable so acted on it. Good for her. I wish I had had the courage to do it when I was in a situation where a HCP was acting totally inappropriately. Thought obviously the OP situation is not the same. Just the feeling uncomfortable but is similar.

HeySoulSister Wed 17-Jul-13 13:04:29

flob me either!! Lose their appeal once they hit puberty! grin

PrincessScrumpy Wed 17-Jul-13 13:04:37

Not sure true kidnappers would come and announce their intentions. He was complimenting you and you're ds and made an effort to find you because your dc is lovely. Yabu

Footface Wed 17-Jul-13 13:05:00

I think it's great to have men working in nurseries!

Really I think you should be honest with yourself because at least then you can try to work though your prejudice.

perplexedpirate Wed 17-Jul-13 13:05:56

Can't believe you complained to the nursery! What an overreaction.
That poor guy, he'll be feeling terrible now. Well done OP, hope you're proud of yourself. hmm

TalkativeJim Wed 17-Jul-13 13:08:50

He isnt CRB checked? I find that REALLY hard to believe - I can't believe that they would be allowed to let someone through the door without it... and especially not to stay on! Are you sure?

Oh and you're being a bit ridiculous, by the way.

Weissbier Wed 17-Jul-13 13:12:15

I didn't complain about him. I made it very clear I didn't want any complaint. He hadn't done anything! Yes, we are in a different country. I said the remark had made me hesitate a bit and I wanted just to clarify how the work exp people work with the kids (supervised, or not). I know they aren't crb checked because this is a set-up where the parents are the management. But I will apologise.

I was happy about him being there as I do, honestly, approve of men in nurseries. The only relevance for me his gender had was that the remark seemed a notch odder. That was all. My point was about how work exp people are checked and supervised

CabbageLooking Wed 17-Jul-13 13:13:34

Nice to see the OP is going to apologise. I agree you were over the top although I would be concerned that someone non-CRB checked is in the nursery. Ultimately though, this sounds like a nice chap who wanted to say something lovely about your child.

Maryann1975 Wed 17-Jul-13 13:13:57

Everyone who has ever looked after my ds at nursery or school has said they wanted to take him home. I reply back that he wakes at 5.30 and they soon change their mind. I take it as a compliment as they obviously think he is a lovely smiley little boy. No one would want to take one of the naughty ones home would they?
I wish there were more men working in Childcare. My husband and brother would both be perfect for the job, but unfortunately social norms have stopped my brother (he doesnt see is as masucline enough) and the lack of pay means as a family we couldn't afford for DH to do it. Which is a shame.

obviouslyneedsupernanny Wed 17-Jul-13 13:14:00

Fgs can people not say anything anymore without being seen as a weirdo?

Unexpected Wed 17-Jul-13 13:15:33

I think it's quite confusing to mention CRB checks when you live abroad where presumably this doesn't exist. A lot of people have missed this point and so are doubting what you are saying. Is there a similar system in your country OP? If so, is it normal that it should extend to work experience students? If not, then I do';t think you can complain that a procedure which is not standard hasn't been followed.

Floggingmolly Wed 17-Jul-13 13:21:25

such remarks reveal they are not professionals? hmm
Shame they've phased out the workhouses; wouldn't find any good natured jollity there...

ShadeofViolet Wed 17-Jul-13 13:26:07

I would take him any day over the girl we recently had in our playgroup. She was sullen and sour and spent the whole time with her arms folded looking like she would rather be anywhere else. DD saw he in the street and she just blanked her.

I dont know if there is a lower age limit for CRB's?

kali110 Wed 17-Jul-13 13:31:44

Sorry i think yabu. Hope this guy doesn't get in trouble or is hurt by the comments. He may have planned to be an electrician but was being swayed into working with kids. Bet he will go back to being an electrician after this :-(

Tinpin Wed 17-Jul-13 13:38:54

He was paying you and your daughter a huge compliment and you have in effect thrown it back in his face.

TheToysAreALIVEITellThee Wed 17-Jul-13 13:40:29

Oh dear, I told my mate that I wanted to "gobble her DD up on a butty"

I had better text her to let her know I am not really going to actually eat her DD!!

Oh YABU by the way.

DuelingFanjo Wed 17-Jul-13 13:43:14

The right way would have been for them to accept that you found it odd and apologise, they didn't need to lecture you for quarter of an hour.

However, i think you were being a bit over-the-top and wonder if you would have felt the same had it been a woman who said it?

JedwardScissorhands Wed 17-Jul-13 13:44:38

Henrietta's story of meeting her husband would make a fab Jenifer Aniston rom com!

People at nursery used to say that about dd1. I never thought anything of it. They never said it about the horror that is dd2!

Happymum22 Wed 17-Jul-13 13:47:49

YABU and it is such a shame because if a female worker had come and said similar, you would perhaps be less suspicious? Not accusing, just suggesting?

We really need more males in nurserys and primary, especially for boys as role models. It is people like you that scare them away with accusations.

AnotherStitchInTime Wed 17-Jul-13 13:50:58

I think it was a joke, and you are overreacting, but I think the nursery could be in hot water.

Even parents going on trips with kids in schools are CRB checked, regular volunteers with children need a CRB. A CRB is necessary if he is going to be there longer term.

valiumredhead Wed 17-Jul-13 13:51:45


HeySoulSister Wed 17-Jul-13 13:58:52

at our playgroup my dd did 'work experience' and wasn't crb checked....she was 17 and it was for her sixth form studies

AnotherStitchInTime Wed 17-Jul-13 14:01:15

You do not need a CRB for short term work experience, but by the sounds of it he has stayed on voluntarily after the work experience and therefore will need a CRB.

Unexpected Wed 17-Jul-13 14:05:40

And again, i am going to repeat, the OP does not live in the UK so talk of CRBs and what happens here in the UK is irrelevant.

maja00 Wed 17-Jul-13 14:06:52

Even in the UK, staff can start work before their CRB has come through if they are supervised.

CaterpillarCara Wed 17-Jul-13 14:10:53

I also think you have over-reacted to a kind joke.

NotAQueef Wed 17-Jul-13 14:12:40

confused Seriously? In this nicest possible way - GET. A. GRIP

NotAQueef Wed 17-Jul-13 14:13:15

Oh and in answer to your questions YABU

TheFallenNinja Wed 17-Jul-13 14:17:49

I would love to work with kids, this is the reason why I won't. Even if only 1 in a 1000 are suspicious because I'm a man I simply won't expose myself to the risk of one day being the topic of an AIBU because I opened my mouth.


ChippingInHopHopHop Wed 17-Jul-13 14:22:16


Very unreasonable.

I often tell people I'd like to run away with one of their children or have one in a sandwich! There's one little girl who goes to our toddler group, she is soooo cute. There is a look about her that reminds me of little girls when I was little - and I can't help but be drawn to watch her singing and playing. Fortunately her Mum doesn't think I'm a weirdo smile ... and frequently offers to strap her into the spare seat in my car grin

Jaynebxl Wed 17-Jul-13 14:23:44

The lack of CRB check was more of a concern to me until I realised it wasn't in UK. Lots of countries have no such thing.

mimitwo Wed 17-Jul-13 14:23:53

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TeamSouthfields Wed 17-Jul-13 14:24:32

Ur weird.... Come on... Seriously.... Because his a man.... People like u, make me sick!

thispunderfullife Wed 17-Jul-13 14:24:42

Got to jump on here and say the same thing as all the others... I've worked with children for years and that's common polite banter. I feel bad for him that you spoke to his boss about it!

mimitwo Wed 17-Jul-13 14:25:55

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NotAQueef Wed 17-Jul-13 14:28:01

Would you have reacted the same way if a female work experience person made the comment?
Clearly all men working with kids are potential paedophiles/murderers hmm

It's a shame that this attitude is rife and will put many young men off working with young children sad. YWBU and I'm glad that you are going to apologise. One thing, work experience kids, in the UK are not CRB checked and would not be left alone with children. I have no idea of the practise in other countries.

HenriettaPye Wed 17-Jul-13 14:33:20

Jedward- don't see where the comedy aspect would fit in? He spent years doing courses, including child protection, NVQ levels 2&3, paediatric first aid, all of which, put together cost over £1000, not to mention all the time spent studying and revising for exams, all for packing it in a few years later and having to retrain as something else, just because of a few narrow minded and sexist parents- such as the OP

sweetestcup Wed 17-Jul-13 14:43:22

Glad my DH who is a very good male childminder has more open minded parents on his books than you OP, because regardless of saying you have no issues with men in childcare, your post suggests otherwise by stating you have more of a problem with a man saying this than a woman. Sad and sexist.

Weissbier Wed 17-Jul-13 14:47:32

I've apologized and said I was an idiot...

I`m glad your going to apologise, thats good but definately needed.

Its just so sad that there are people who are so suspicious of men working with children. These poor kids being brought up to believe that there are bogeymen in every corner. <shakes head sadly>

Weissbier Wed 17-Jul-13 15:06:56

I honestly - and I'm not making this up - thought it was weird coming from anyone, man or woman. I was pleased they had a guy in. I thought it was odd a nursery worker would express a preference for a particular child. It is slightly odder coming from a guy, more naive, but I would have found it odd coming from anyone. I called my mum who is a head teacher and she said we needed to mention it because it crossed a line. Had he been crb checked, I'd have left it. Had he been planning to become a nursery worker, I'd have left it, had he even been working for money, I'd have left it. Of course I realised that it was unlikely anyone planning anything would be open like this, but my mother told me not to be stupid and naivety went both ways. I don't want to bleat, and I haven't in my apology, I've just said I was an idiot and I'm really sorry. But, for all it may not sound like it, this wasn't about gender, this was about appropriate safeguards e.g. Inexperienced people, of either sex, unchecked, not working with children on their own. But I have apologized, because I can see that even if you take the gender thing out, which is offensive and which I never intended, it was an overreaction. So I'm glad I asked the MN jury or I guess I'd have gone on to be even more of an idiot.

HenriettaPye Wed 17-Jul-13 15:15:40

But you said at the start 'I would have been less bothered by a woman saying it'

LastTangoInDevonshire Wed 17-Jul-13 15:16:26

I've apologized and said I was an idiot...

First of many lessons to be learned now you are a parent, OP !!

Unexpected Wed 17-Jul-13 15:17:46

I don't want to get shouty and be accused of being aggressive but honestly OP, why do you continue to refer to CRBs when you are not in the UK? That is a complete red herring and confusing for everyone here. You are also reading things into the work experience student's comments. Why shouldn't he (or any nursery worker/teacher) find some children cuter/easier/funnier than others? As long as they do not display overt favouritism, does it matter? Surely we all have relations, neighbours children etc whom we find easier to like than others?

You don't say what country you are in but cultural norms vary hugely between countries so what may be completely unacceptable here may be very normal there. Unless your headteacher mum lives there with you, I don't think she can judge on this particular situation.

Pennyacrossthehall Wed 17-Jul-13 15:22:18

To the many people pulling faces about CRB checks:

If he is young enough to be doing work experience, he may be young enough that you would need a CRB check to work with him!

(Disclaimer: I don't actually know what age the CRB thing cuts off at, I'm just making a point)

Unexpected Wed 17-Jul-13 15:23:23

People are pulling faces about CRB checks mainly because the OP lives abroad and there ARE NO CRB checks!

kelda Wed 17-Jul-13 15:28:25

You totally overreacted. I feel sad for him to have such suspicision cast over him, for a comment that is intended as a compliment.

You say you have informed the nursery manager but didn't actually 'complian' - well by informing the manager you have effectively complained and I hope they do not take this into consideration when they carry out his work experience assessment.

kelda Wed 17-Jul-13 15:29:17

They may not be called CRB checks but many other countries carry out police checks for people working in nurseries, hospitals etc.

kelda Wed 17-Jul-13 15:31:28

I don't know the rules for Germany, assuming the OP is in Germany from her name.

Owllady Wed 17-Jul-13 15:36:15

is it any wonder that men decide against working with children as it seems to be natural for some people to cast suspicion sad

Weissbier Wed 17-Jul-13 15:37:52

What we have here is exactly like crb except it is up to you whether you run it, so I thought it was a fair translation. We run them for everyone except work exp right now. The guy is twenty. They do work exp later here.

Weissbier Wed 17-Jul-13 15:40:04

No no no this won't impact on an assessment or anything like that, there is no such thing and I asked it go no further at the time. I was an idiot but even I didn't want it going that far. I only really wanted to know if he was alone with DD who he'd described as one of his favorites...

Weissbier Wed 17-Jul-13 15:43:33

And yes, I would have been less bothered by a woman simply because men are usually very careful in how they express themselves in this context. The male Germans I asked all thought it was out of order

NotAQueef Wed 17-Jul-13 15:45:43

Fair enough OP you realised you might have overreacted and have apologised.

Yes, you were out of line and good that you've now apologised.

TheFallenNinja Wed 17-Jul-13 15:50:07

You and these male Germans who claim he crossed a line are utterly contemptible and I'm at a complete loss as to what this line is?

I smell a different agenda here. hmm

kelda Wed 17-Jul-13 15:51:27

'And yes, I would have been less bothered by a woman simply because men are usually very careful in how they express themselves in this context. '

I don't really believe that. You were suspicious of the comment and that's why you told the nursery.

StuntGirl Wed 17-Jul-13 15:56:59

Give over.



kelda Wed 17-Jul-13 15:58:58

He may not be assessed, but he might need a reference. It's good you've apoligised and I hope the nursery disregard your initial comments.

RedHelenB Wed 17-Jul-13 16:00:15

My dd doesn't need a CRB check aged 14 to do voluntary work with children BUT i am sure she would never be left in a room alone with them. Likewise, if I ever had Y10 work experience in my classroom they would never be alone with a child.

Part of work experience is gaining the idea of boundaries (as a teacher I would never say this or would say it as it creates the idea you have "favourites")

LilacPeony Wed 17-Jul-13 16:00:29

It's a compliment. Quite a common one. When I say I'm going to eat my dd up i don't mean i will literally eat her.

arethereanyleftatall Wed 17-Jul-13 16:03:11

Op, well done for taking the universal yabu so well!! And also, is someone says 'they want to eat your dd up' , you don't need to call the police!

Weissbier Wed 17-Jul-13 16:17:16

Thanks arethereany...I feel awful now of course but that's deserved and but I feel like I learnt something important. And I do know it won't affect the young man because I was very careful to establish that at the beginning of my conversation with the nursery manager.

perplexedpirate Wed 17-Jul-13 20:29:08

Kudos due for taking the comments on board Weisbeer. smile

Mouthfulofquiz Wed 17-Jul-13 20:39:43

Oh god, this was clearly a joke or turn of phrase!! The checkout lady at sainsburys today asked if DS was for sale - guess what, I didn't actually sell mychild to a stranger!! I took it as a compliment :-)

catgirl1976 Wed 17-Jul-13 20:45:31

I was coming on to say YABU but I see you have already accepted that graciously which is laudable so I won't add to it

I will say though as a mother of a boy in nursery I wish there were more male nursery workers and I do think attitudes and reactions need to change in this area

Turniptwirl Wed 17-Jul-13 20:46:33

I'm regularly told by young leaders at rainbows and brownies that they're going to keep this girl or that girl. Totally harmless expression of fondness for a lively child!

I do think anyone working with kids should be crb checked and if they haven't been should never be unsupervised. I'm a leader in training with brownies and while we can't be alone with one child ever, I can supervise a group of kids without another leader as I have been crb checked, had referenced checked, been first aid trained etc. generally we always do things in a group anyway so I might be with one group but the whole pack is in the area with other leaders present.

SmiteYouWithThunderbolts Wed 17-Jul-13 20:47:15

Jaysus, I've said before that a child is so cute I could eat them up. Are the police about to arrest me for threatening cannibalism?

YABVU and borderline hysterical tbh.

TiggyD Wed 17-Jul-13 21:01:05

OP said her bit and everybody gave their opinion that the chap said nothing really inappropriate. Let's move on. Big hugs all round.

Similar topic: The nursery I've been doing supply in had 3 people on the early shift in one room, all male! And a male manager too.

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