To want to be asked about med students being in my appointments?

(106 Posts)
beth27123 Fri 12-Jul-13 14:48:34

Just gone into my 16 week midwife appointment to be faced with two baby faced male med students. I had quite personal questions I wanted to ask and felt like I should have been asked? Maybe I'm overreacting on the subject but with a history of abuse from a former relationship I find it hard enough to have OH in some appointments. I don't really know how to deal with it but it was suggested these students may be present in further appointments.

sagfold Fri 12-Jul-13 14:51:10

YANBU, your consent should always be sought.

LadyBeagleEyes Fri 12-Jul-13 14:52:26

I always get asked first and have to sign an agreement at my surgery.
You can say no.

ilovechips Fri 12-Jul-13 14:52:38

You absolutely should have been asked in advance if you were ok with them being there. You also have the right to ask to have them leave, even though it can feel awkward asking in front of them (hence why you should be asked first).

cherhorowitz Fri 12-Jul-13 14:53:32

YANBU. Your midwife should have asked if you were comfortable with it as soon as you walked into the room. I would explain to your midwife that you do not want any med students in your appointments in future and point out that you have not given your consent.

Allthingspretty Fri 12-Jul-13 14:53:51

complain to tpur surgery

Chivetalking Fri 12-Jul-13 14:55:55

YANBU.

You should have been asked. If they do turn up uninvited again you are quite within your rights to request they leave the room.

Pennyacrossthehall Fri 12-Jul-13 14:56:26

You should have been asked . . .but: I would never refuse as I want the junior doctors to get the best possible training, which means on the job experience .

Beamur Fri 12-Jul-13 14:56:48

I was asked if a student could be present during some of my appointments and I refused - the midwife was very civil about it and my refusal was not a problem. I do appreciate everyone has to learn etc, but I wasn't comfortable with it. Just tell your midwife that you do not give your consent to this and that should be the end of it.

rempy Fri 12-Jul-13 14:58:00

Definitely not unreasonable. They should have posters up saying they might be there as it's a teaching hospital, they should also make it abundantly clear that you can ask for them to not be there, and not have any alteration or discrimination in the treatment that you receive.

You ought to be asked before you've gone in if it's OK. If they haven't been organised enough to do that, you can ask them to go at ANY point in a consultation, so if that's just after hello.

rempy Fri 12-Jul-13 15:00:21

Just read your last sentence.

If you are clear that you do not want students present in your obstetric consults, you can get it put on your notes, so no one pressures you again.

You have NO obligation to have them there. There is a bit of a tendency to guilt patients into having them there "how else are they going to learn" but there are plenty of pregnant women in this world.

Dackyduddles Fri 12-Jul-13 15:00:29

I refused too for same grounds. Just didn't want to be their guinea pig.

Annoys hell out of me too.

CajaDeLaMemoria Fri 12-Jul-13 15:00:34

It used to be very common to be asked before you went in, in my experience.

A few years ago, they started asking in the room, with the med students there. That made it a lot harder to say no, but they would leave if you asked them too.

Now I haven't been asked in a while. I had an oncology appt earlier and there were a few med students. They kept interrupting and asking questions and it was a bit scary - the appt was scary enough anyway, and I felt quite vulnerable. I totally understand why they are there, though, so I tried to block them out. They all wished me well and were very polite when I left.

I've had students in mine a couple of times and always been asked/given the opportunity to refuse (both by doctor and secretary). I didn't mind at all, but it was pretty obvious I was being used as a guinea pig- students encouraged to run through list of checkpoints on me with Dr. prompting, "and what about...." etc, when it was already all written in my notes, it lasted ages. You should definitely be asked IMHO....could you send a quick email to the surgery asking them if your further appointments could be just you and the doctor? I'm sure they won't care or think you're overreacting, and they probably just forgot to ask you.

Congrats by the way smile

starsandunicorns Fri 12-Jul-13 15:02:27

I got asked when i had a smear done the student had a look too. Also found out if you had a baby you have a slit and a dot in had no dc the nurse was explaining to the student .. everdays a school day

primallass Fri 12-Jul-13 15:07:01

I said no once but I can't remember why. I know that I was distressed for some reason.

Korovaj Fri 12-Jul-13 15:12:07

You should definitely be asked and are well within your rights to say no - it is also good practice to be asked before you're in the room with the students too as that's embarrassing for everyone!

I have been a med student myself and never took any offence at all if people said no to me being there. BUT it is a great learning opportunity for students so if you don't mind them being there it's really helpful. One patient did say to me once that they'd rather have me there learning as a student than have me there totally clueless as a new doctor in a new situation which I think is a really good point.

I had a lot of extra scans with DS2 (dilated renal pelves) which were typically the consultant plus a midwife plus a student or two each.

I don't mind their being there (except for internals) but I do expect to be asked first, and that everyone is identified. Just "is it ok if our students sit in? This is Steve who's in his final year and Kathy who's a second year." Doesn't take much.

VivaLeBeaver Fri 12-Jul-13 15:39:51

I had a med student do my last smear test. shock

You should always be asked though, and asked with them not present.

HolidayArmadillo Fri 12-Jul-13 15:45:12

Our surgery and hospital notes have in something along the lines of 'this is a teaching hospital/surgery and such it is to be expected we have students doing on the job training, if you would prefer to be seen without them then please let your doctor/midwife know and your care will not be affected. We thank you in advance for allowing students to observe and learn from you if you feel you are able to allow this'. All you have to do is say I'd rather be seen without students, plenty of people would rather not be involved in teaching, however if everyone felt like this then it would be a disaster for future medics/midwives/nurses. I know I'd rather be looked after by someone who has had the opportunity to learn and be taught in a completely supervised real life environment as opposed to having just read about it in a book. It should never affect your care though if you wish to ask them to leave.

Crinkle77 Fri 12-Jul-13 16:03:28

If I have been the docs and a traineee has been there they normally ask if it is ok for them to be there. If you don't want them there just say so. To be fair though they are training and someone has to be the guinea pig. How else are they supposed to learn?

ginpig Fri 12-Jul-13 16:11:53

All healthcare professionals are duty bound to inform you of a students presence at your appointment and they ahve to give you the option of saying no.

I had a student midwife at many of my antenatal appointments and she even did my sweep, did not bother me one jot.

However, some people, for one reason or another may not want to be sued as a teaching case and absolutely have the right to say no to being so. Importantly- I don't know one medical student (and I have known many) that was in any way offended by being asked to leave. People have their reasons, this is understood and it shouldn't be held against you in any way

helenthemadex Fri 12-Jul-13 16:14:04

can you ring your midwife and have a chat with her? explain what you have said in your op, its done now but maybe it can be put on your notes for future reference

neunundneunzigluftballons Fri 12-Jul-13 16:16:44

I am just the person med students want to be dealing with quite happy to let them perform an internal if needs be, I seriously have no shame, but I think it is outrageous to presume everyone fees the same. You definitely should have been asked without the students present so your felt no obligation.

scrazy Fri 12-Jul-13 16:20:36

You should be asked first. I always say yes as DD is a med student and they have to learn, but can understand the reasons for refusing.

Naoko Fri 12-Jul-13 16:26:01

You should be asked. I always get to play freak show teaching case for my physiotherapist's students which I don't mind at all, but he always asks and introduces the student first which is exactly how it should be. I'd complain to the surgery if I were you.

PeterParkerSays Fri 12-Jul-13 16:28:13

I've posted about this before but, yes you should definitely be asked, although possibly with the students int he room. I had a student midwife at my booking in and one later community midwife appoitment. I work at the university the student midwife was studying at, so I was offered the chance to ask the student to leave, as was she, as soon as I said "oh, I work there". The student looked dumfounded as if she never thought university staff have babies.

Oh I do say no to students doing blood draws or cannulas because I'm not good with needles at the best of times, and even experienced phlebotomists struggle.

jamdonut Fri 12-Jul-13 16:32:51

Of course you should have been asked first, BUT, how else are students going to learn if people don't let them be in on their consultations? They need to see as many people as possible - the everyday conditions and the unusual.
I would not and have not said no to students being in on my consultations.

MrsSpagBol Fri 12-Jul-13 16:34:39

Jamdonut did you actually read the OP's posts and see her reasons? hmm

LondonMan Fri 12-Jul-13 16:39:30

I have a lot of moles that I had checked out once, got called back to a second appointment. I suppose I must have been asked if students could check me out, was asked to undress in a side-room and 60 students from the neighbouring lecture theatre filed past to look at me in my underpants. I didn't really mind, but was slightly miffed when it dawned on me that the only reason for the appointment was so that they could show me off.

On a much more recent occasion there were student nurses and doctors present for a specialist appointment, I would swear that the student doctor looked no more than 12 years old.

tallulah Fri 12-Jul-13 16:45:16

I have been asked at GP appointments and at hospital appointments if I mind students being there, and most of the time I don't. But like Horry I do draw the line at blood tests. Even experienced nurses struggle with my veins and I hate needles.

25 years ago when I had DS1 someone sat in on his 6 week check. They asked the doctor's permission but not mine, and nobody told me who she was. The doctor ended up doing all the checks twice for her benefit and then got stroppy because DS started crying angry. I complained most strongly about that.

They really should ask first.

BreadNameBread Fri 12-Jul-13 16:51:30

I would not expect to be asked if I was in a teaching hospital although it is nice if they are introduced. If you don't like students being there all you have to do is ask and they will leave. It isn't difficult confused just say that you would prefer to be seen just by the Dr or Nurse. If you can't manage that then phone and ask for a note to be put on your file.

I have never minded students being present but I would prefer an experienced member of staff to do cannulas.

MrsHoarder Fri 12-Jul-13 16:51:33

They should ask, and you have the right to refuse. I don't refuse because of the moral implications and because I feel I get better care with a student having things explained to them.

Fwiw you might want to discuss your issues with men being present with your mw. Ds had minor complications at birth so there was a male pediatricians there. Happened to quick for me to say anything about his presence or want to. Mauve see if you can have counselling prior to delivery?

RocknRollNerd Fri 12-Jul-13 16:57:56

In a situation like yours then YANBU and you definitely should have been asked though. It is poor form to spring it on people when they are already in the room. We live in a big teaching hospital area and we're always told when we check in for appointments that there are students and are we ok with it - I see the students sometimes leave after the previous patient and before the next one so I assume some discreet behind the scenes communication gets done between receptionist and doctor. That should have been available for you.

As a more general point though I always agree for students to be in - I don't get the 'I don't want people practising' 'there are lots of others for them to practise on' view (although caveat this is when there are no other sensitive factors involved or previous medical traumas). In my experience which is quite a bit, having students in is fab - they are so very very careful when examining and you tend to get better explanations from the actual doc as they're coaching the students too. I'd rather have careful examination from trainees under supervision than have them suddenly qualified and never have had much expeirence before and be on their own.

Incidentally DS innocent heart murmur was missed for the first 4 years of his life and picked up when he was being a pretend patient for the final MB students at the hospital (yes I like medical students that much we even go along and pretend at being patients in their exams). He'd been seen by docs lots of times (not for cardio stuff) but had his heart listened to by many many consultants, nurses, GPs, registrars etc and it was the super keen students who picked it up!

RevoltingPeasant Fri 12-Jul-13 16:59:47

With my hospital appointments, they always send you a letter which says in it that students may be present and you should say in advance if you don't want them there.

I think it is a rubbish letter: it's 2 sides long, single-spaced, with information repeated, and the bit about students is squashed on the 2nd page. Bet lots of people with poor eyesight/ older people/ people with LDs don't get that far.

That said, I am totally happy with students being present. They have to learn somehow and are mostly terrified very polite and wide-eyed.

MrsHoarder I strongly disagree that OP requires counselling. Women have a right not to be intimately touched and inspected by men. This is not a problem she needs counselling for, unless she wants it.

BlackMini Fri 12-Jul-13 17:20:42

YANBU and as a medical student I would be horrifed to know that you hadn't been asked for your permission.

During my labour with DD1, while I was the middle of a two-hour push fest, I was asked if 6 med students could come in. Thankfully they were standing outside the door so could hear me yell "Piss off".

I was given an internal by a med student when pg with DD2. He was so embarrassed that when he was done, he stumbled into a cupboard instead of out of the room! Both me and the mw were in stitches, poor bloke.

But definitely if you do not want a student there you not be forced into it.

MiaowTheCat Fri 12-Jul-13 19:22:27

I found my otherwise lovely midwife did tend to slip into the "it's ok if X sits in isn't it?" way of "asking" a bit too much for my liking - I've never really minded with 99% of them (I thought it was probably quite good for them in terms of developing into the sort of midwives we actually want to have to see someone dealing with birth trauma having to head into birth number 2 to be honest) but one of them was really bugging me as she had the same sort of persona you'd imagine Vicky Pollard on her GCSE work experience having.

Had a wonderful student midwife though when in and out threatening labour - she just happened to be on shift a few times when I was in (I was in and out like a bloody yo-yo with it stopping and starting) - she explained who she was, that she was almost at the end of her training and had a post lined up at the hospital, that everything would be overseen and how that would be done... she was lovely, absolutely meticulous (to be honest I'd been glad to see there was a student in as I hoped it would be like that) and popped up to the post-natal ward on her tea break to see me when I'd finally had the baby as well bless her.

I don't like being asked in such a way that you feel you've got to say yes though.

badfaketan Fri 12-Jul-13 19:33:04

I teach medical students.You should always be asked.
Everyone will understand if you say no and they just leave the room.
Not surprisingly male medical students are often asked to leave the room more often than female ones.

Turniptwirl Fri 12-Jul-13 19:40:16

You should always be asked first, preferably without the student present or at my previous surgery the doc would come fetch you from the waiting room and student would loiter at least then if you said no they just stay outside.

I've given both answers depending on the reason for the appointment.

greeneyed Fri 12-Jul-13 19:46:00

I wrote no student midwives on my birthplan which was read. They were present anyway and by the time I had emergency rotational forceps there were about 6 people eagerly looking at my foof being mangled.

Blimey, you should have been asked. I've ALWAYS been asked, be it for a routine appointment, while in labour, or even when I was getting prepped for an EMCS (although I was in a drug addled haze at this point, so I could have imagined it)

Although I've never had a problem with a student being there, I'd be annoyed if no one asked me.

starfishmummy Fri 12-Jul-13 20:16:49

I had a gynae op under general anesthetic and a couple of med students did a practice smear test while I was under. They were asking everyone on the consultants list, and didn't bother me as long as I was still it of it!

Ugh. I hate that idea Starfish - I've never said no to a medical student observing, or praticising, on me, but the thought of someone doing an unnecessary smear while I was unconscious would be too much!

RoadToTuapeka Fri 12-Jul-13 20:35:57

You should always be asked, preferably with the student/s not present. Then you could say briefly the nature of the issue so doc/student can be aware if it's sensitive issue for you. I always agree (how else will they learn about real people), but you are quite within your rights not to agree. Sometimes not great being poked about by students if intimate examination is required! But again, how will they learn.

GettingStrong Fri 12-Jul-13 20:44:52

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GettingStrong Fri 12-Jul-13 20:45:10

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

You should be asked before the consultation starts. If you are not happy then ask them to leave. If you are going for another appointment make your feelings known in advance, either to your midwife or the receptionist. Don't be embarrassed about your feelings.
I have been asked plenty of times, and as a rule I am fairly happy with them being present, however, the ONE time I wasn't asked was when i was actually giving birth and was in no position to quibble grin. I wasn't overly impressed at feeling like a freak show at the fair, either.

Wbdn28 Fri 12-Jul-13 20:54:43

YANBU

missuswife Fri 12-Jul-13 20:59:12

I went into a prenatal appointment once at hospital and there was this random guy sitting in the exam room when the nurse showed me in. He wasn't wearing any ID so I assumed he was the previous patient's partner or something but the nurse didn't ask him to leave. She didn't mention him and just went on to asking me stuff about my health like be wasn't there!

Finally I asked who is this random dude?! The nurse said "oh he is just a med student, is that ok?" I said no that time because I was pissed off. I said yes all the times I was asked properly.

thefuturesnotourstosee Fri 12-Jul-13 21:18:45

You think that's bad OP?? My ds was delivered by a male student midwife and I didn't find out until afterwards he was a student!! To be fair there was another midwife the room and DS was delivered in a bit of a hurry - nearly had to cross my legs to stop him coming in the lift but nobody asked me if I was happy to have a student in charge.

As it happens he did a fabulous job and I was really reassured by him but it would have been nice to be consulted first!! (actually I would probably have screamed "I don't bloody care get this f*cking baby out of me" and that would have been taken as consent grin )

YANBU

Jollyb Fri 12-Jul-13 21:31:19

Starfish when I was a med student and doing a gynae rotation we were expected to go and see all the patients on the ward before their operations. We'd have to ask if they'd consent to us examining them along with the consultant during their surgery

I must admit it was fairly mortifying but most women were happy to be examined.

MummytoKatie Fri 12-Jul-13 23:14:50

Agree you should be asked.

Personally I like students. They are always so focused and trying so hard. And the midwife / doctor is watching them really carefully so you get twice the chance of things being picked up,

bimbabirba Fri 12-Jul-13 23:21:47

With my last pregnancy toward the end i needed to be seen a lot and I was so utterly fed up with always having a room full of people in the end I told the midwife I didn't want any students at future appointments.

apostropheuse Fri 12-Jul-13 23:23:57

thefuture Lots of babies are delivered by student midwives with a qualified midwife in attendance. That's perfectly normal. In fact I believe they have to deliver a certain amount of babies before they're qualified. I'm not sure why you were horrified that he was male either!

OP you should have been consulted first. I personally have no problem with students being there, but I do understand there are people who don't like it.

vintagecakeisstillnice Fri 12-Jul-13 23:40:52

Yes you should always be asked.

And best practice should be that you are asked without them in the room.

Personally, as an ex-HCP both OH and I are more than happy to have students present, sadly we have had too many hospital appointments recently.

But only when asked, and if not asked I would give the qualified staff member shit (though not in the sight/hearing of the student)

Mimishimi Fri 12-Jul-13 23:42:47

Why would you think they would be abusive though?

freemanbatch Fri 12-Jul-13 23:54:30

With DD2 I had a student midwife at every appointment and she was supposed to do my home birth but she was ill. I had agreed to her delivering the baby if she felt comfortable and all was well.

That student is now my midwife for baby number 3 and I am confident she know what she's doing because I saw her in training BUT she has assumed I am happy to have her student do my appointments and has never actually asked. It hasn't stopped me telling them exactly what went on with my ex and requesting that they refer the situation to children's services for me or anything. It wasn't easy to be outnumbered while having the conversation but the student is getting an added education and will be in a better place to deal with women in my situation when she's qualified so I try not to worry about the fact I have never been asked and just get on with it.

OrangeLily Sat 13-Jul-13 00:38:07

I really don't mind students being in but I've asked everytime and I have consented to med students doing procedures on me too. However, I don't have a huge fear of hospitals or doctors and they have always fixed what's broken and they have to learn somehow. Last one looked terrified when left alone with me and asked me a few awkward questions to make small talk. I hope I did my best to be not terrifying and not look like the questions had fairly obvious answers. All got to learn somehow smile

Whothefuckfarted Sat 13-Jul-13 08:55:32

yanbu

ifindoubtnamechange Sat 13-Jul-13 09:53:59

I have had this happen. Try saying "So who are you then?" Usually helps to highlight that they should have asked and most people don't want random strangers sitting in wihtout being asked.

minouminou Sat 13-Jul-13 10:55:05

Seconding the idea of putting a note on your notes (sounds daft, that phrase) that says you don't want students/male students at your appts.

I went the opposite way and said I actively welcomed students.....I remember telling one student that she needed to put more pressure on in order to feel DS' bum!

However......primarily, your appt is for YOUR welfare, as well as the baby's, and the medical students WILL get their chances to sit in on other appts, so if it's not your bag.....make it quite clear. If anything, it helps the students, as they won't be wasting any time.

minouminou Sat 13-Jul-13 11:03:11

I also had a male student present as DS' birth. It was great, as he was an extra body that had medical training.
He was a lovely guy, and stayed with me when the midwife left the room and DP was asleep (loooooooong labour, epidural, forceps) and we had a serious talk about the NHS, and what my legs felt like after the epidural, how much it had hurt beforehand....all sorts.

Lots of positive stories, OP. Hiwever, your comfort is what counts, as you're the patient.

HappyMummyOfOne Sat 13-Jul-13 11:40:21

Ours ask but I have never said no. How else will they learn and get to become doctors, midwives and nurses? The student may be the doctor that saves your life onedy.

HappyMummyOfOne Sat 13-Jul-13 11:40:47

Blooming ipad, one day even.

MousyMouse Sat 13-Jul-13 11:46:08

yanbu
you should have been asked first.

but I never so far refused and with my first dc the delivery room was suddenly full of students (so observe the ventouse delivery) and with my second I had a fabulous student midwife, my dc was her first birth. she was lovely, asked the right questions to the observing midwife, held my hands whilst being stitched up, cleaned the first meconium of baby...visited me on the ward the next day. I hope she's doing well as a fully qualified mw now!

cheerfulweather Sat 13-Jul-13 11:53:53

I remember an appointment where consultant pointed at a mute person in the corner and said "medical student" I was shock
I don't mind if asked nicely and before they are actually in the room.

I once had a scan for a suspected miscarriage, when I was much younger, was asked if student could remain in the room. I didn't really want them there at such an appointment, but felt I couldn't refuse, which isn't right.

thefuturesnotourstosee Sat 13-Jul-13 12:17:30

apostrophe I wasn't horrified he was male and actually if ASKED I would not have minded at all. Its only that I wasn't asked that matters to me. I might have minded for all they knew.

I had a med student at DD's birth too - bad experience for him!! High on gas and air I demanded his hand in marriage and when he politely refused I told him not to worry about DP shock and then was sick all over him. Well he did say he wanted practical experience.

In fact the chap who delivered DS was lovely as I think I said in my original post. DS was his qualifying baby. He'll be a great midwife by now.

In her book, 'How Not To Be A Perfect Mother', Libby Purves retells the story of a friend who was in active labour when suddenly the door to her room opened, and a batch of medical students trooped in, without a by-your-leave - and she was so incensed she propped herself up on her elbows and demanded ticket money from the audience. And she was so scary that some of them reached straight into their pockets - before they were ushered out.

A friend of mine who is now a senior GP was a medical student when I first met him, and told me about a consultant gynaecologist who used to get all the medical students to do internal exams on the women on his theatre list - once they were unconscious and on the operating table, and utterly without their consent!! I think he intimidated the Theatre nurses so much that no-one ever complained about this. Thankfully I think he retired years ago!

noddyholder Sat 13-Jul-13 13:31:12

I have a very complicated medical history and nearly always have students sit in. I used to be ok with it as I know they need to learn but as I get older I am aghast at some of the stupid questions they ask and am less inclined to say yes

EnlightenedOwl Sat 13-Jul-13 15:50:42

confess it doesn't bother me either guess they have to learn

ShadowStorm Sat 13-Jul-13 17:41:38

YANBU.

You should have been asked if you minded the medical students being there first.

Of course they all have to learn, but if the appointment involves talking about personal stuff, or examinations that a patient may be feeling nervy about, the patient shouldn't be feeling pressured into having the medical students there.

DoraExplorer1993 Sat 13-Jul-13 17:48:33

YABU, if you expect access to medical treatment you should be prepared to accept that medical students need to be trained so that medical treatment can be provided in the future for others.

Reminds me of people who rage against learner drivers forgetting that in order to drive themselves, they once were a learner.

Wbdn28 Sat 13-Jul-13 18:35:01

> if you expect access to medical treatment you should be prepared to accept that medical students need to be trained so that medical treatment can be provided in the future for others.

Surely people give and take at various times in their life, but it doesn't necessarily have to be an exact "tit for tat"?

Mrsdavidcaruso Sat 13-Jul-13 18:54:32

I agree student Drs need to learn, and one of the most important lesson they need to learn is that patients should be treated with respect and have rights and those rights include telling them to piss off.

I one refused to let medical students touch me during a ward round when they were with my Consultant, when the Consultant tried to insist that they could examine me I still said no and told the Consultant that if he kept insisting I was going to make a complaint - the students had to leave

Judging by the looks on the student faces I think the lesson they learnt that days was that the Consultant was Not God almighty even though he thought he was.

expatinscotland Sat 13-Jul-13 18:58:29

I tell them no.

expatinscotland Sat 13-Jul-13 19:04:12

The stupidity of some of these students is staggering, too. The older I get, the less patience I have for it and the more I feel inclined to sing 'Who Let the Dogs Out'.

RevoltingPeasant Sat 13-Jul-13 19:05:20

I don't get why people are so upset at the idea do the OP saying no to students.

Who will the students learn on? - well, people like me, and others, and the majority who don't mind.

And when the day comes that I have terminal cancer, or just lost a child, and cannot face a sea of people peering at me, then it'll be my turn to say no. And I'll expect that to be respected, without discussion or guilt tripping.

RevoltingPeasant Sat 13-Jul-13 19:06:40

Expat they're only young. They are probably nervous and covering all bases rather than dim.

LadyBeagleEyes Sat 13-Jul-13 19:06:56

We get a lot of students at my surgery, I've always been asked and given something to sign.
I only said no once when I was very teary and over emotional, it's a tiny village and I've got two fab gps who I can talk to about anything.

DoraExplorer1993 Sat 13-Jul-13 19:07:38

The stupidity of some of these students is staggering, too.

Probably because the increasingly bitter older generations increasingly deny them the opportunity to learn...

ShadowStorm Sat 13-Jul-13 19:22:53

DoraExplorer1993 - it's not always the "increasingly bitter older generations" denying them the opportunity to learn that's the problem.

We had a medical student sit in on one of DS's paediatric appointments. She couldn't have seemed less interested in learning, and except for when the consultant spoke directly to her and said for her to look at DS's umbilical hernia, she spent the whole appointment studying her fingernails and staring out the window.

I'm guessing that she wasn't very interested in paediatrics, but given her behaviour, her being there seemed utterly pointless so far as her learning went.

Although generally, medical / nursing students are keener than that IME.

RevoltingPeasant Sat 13-Jul-13 19:40:27

Obviously you will get the odd rubbishy student. I vividly remember sharing a house with a postgrad medic who was also an elite athlete. She was doing some type of placement on a maternity ward and came home one night saying, "Honestly, some women make such a fuss in labour, I put myself through the pain barrier every day in the gym and I'd never moan like that. Screaming and everything!"

grin She has probably learnt better by now!

But the vast majority I see at my large local teaching hospital are keen, lovely and attentive. I have never met one I'd describe as stupid or even ignorant.

DoraExplorer - a couple of questions. Does the medical students' need to learn override the patient's need to discuss something sensitive and private with the doctor alone? And don't you think that, in the OP's scenario, she should have been asked if she minded the medical students being present at the consultation, rather than being presented with a fait accompli?

BlackMini Sun 14-Jul-13 12:49:52

Expat- I have a lot of respect for you having seen you posting here for years. I am saddened by what you said about us being stupid. I am lucky in that I am more mature than most of the medical students so I stand up for myself, but a lot of the younger medical students find consultants very intimidating and panic when asked questions.

None of them are stupid, they have all proven that they have more than enough academically to make it through.

PoppyAmex Sun 14-Jul-13 13:03:40

Of course you should be asked and have the right to decline.

Having said that, I delivered DD in a teaching hospital and felt a lot safer because I had double the people in the theatre and I feel that all the consultants/registrars tend to do things "by the book" and operate "best practice" when they're teaching.

Oscalito Sun 14-Jul-13 15:25:38

I'm torn on this one. I had students troop in for the delivery of my DS which I wasn't happy about, although I'd consented to students on my birth plan so couldn't really argue. On the other hand, I was told by a doctor friend that having students there makes it more likely the teaching doctor will do everything exactly as they should, so it can be a good thing.

I'm sure it would have put them all off having children for ever though; it really wasn't what you'd call a textbook delivery.

However if you don't want some student there then of course you should be able to say no. you are entitled to privacy and they have plenty of other patients they can observe.

BreadNameBread Sun 14-Jul-13 15:36:38

My DS is a medical student. He says that he is often introduced as a 'Doctor in Training' as it sounds better than a medical student. He says that noone has ever asked for him not to be there.

Expat. You must be worried that these stupid students will be responsible for your health care when you get older. sad

LadyBeagleEyes Sun 14-Jul-13 15:39:39

I don't think medical students are stupid, academically they are the cleverest as standards are very high just to get into med school.
What they are unfortunately lacking is people skills and most are totally unable to interact with a patient.
I think many need some special tutorials on this.

Emilizz Sun 14-Jul-13 15:41:31

Yanbu.
You should definitely have been asked.

thebody Sun 14-Jul-13 15:50:19

you should have been asked.

the word 'stupid' is a strange one. the GP who treated my mil like total shit when she was dying no fought had a medical degree but he was most defiantly 'stupid' as to me only really stupid people lack empathy.

her 'carer' was a middle aged woman with no qualifications but did more for her than he did and was defiantly not stupid but kind and caring.

anyone of any mental ability can be stupid.

BreadNameBread Sun 14-Jul-13 15:55:13

LadyBeagles. What a sweeping statement! As the parent of a medical student I would have to disagree. The competition to become a medical student is huge, some Unis get as many as 16 applicants for every place. Most of these applicants will be academically excellent. You may not realise it but the Medical Schools place great importance on 'people skills'. This is why they interview every student (apart from Southampton) and place a lot of importance on personal statements and references. Most applicants will also have done months and months of volunteer work or work experience. Something that would be hard to do if you were socially inept.

I am not saying they are all perfect but I haven't met one yet that lacks 'people skills'.

ChestyNut Sun 14-Jul-13 16:45:00

You should definitely be asked for your consent.

expat they have to learn somewhere and academically are far from stupid.

I've only said no once to them being present in surgery which was likely to involve exposing my fanjo and I work professionally with a lot of them.

expatinscotland Sun 14-Jul-13 16:46:27

Some of them are dense and stupid, in the sense that lateral and joined up thinking is lacking. That's why I wrote some of them.

Why take it personally and get your knickers in a twist about it? Some of them were definitely in grey matter debt no matter how well they could sit tests and read books.

Get old? No, thanks. I plan to end my life long before that, have plenty of reason to do so, and look forward to it.

expatinscotland Sun 14-Jul-13 16:48:37

So they can learn on someone else if the OP isn't comfortable with it.

I've had them in when DD1 was delivered. I was asked and was fine with it. If I hadn't been, or if the OP isn't, then it should be seen as an affront to decline.

A student midwife delivered DD2. Again, fine with it.

And when DD1 was out of strict isolation, again, fine with having students, some of whom I found rather dense. I was usually not alone in that sentiment. Not everyone who gets into medical school passes. So sue me for having that opinion hmm

5madthings Sun 14-Jul-13 16:49:10

You should always be asked if you consent to students being present. ,y local hospital is a big teaching hospital but they always check if its OK. The only time they didn't was when I was haiv g ds1 and I was 'an interesting and unusual case' they all crowded round and were beyond rude at an incredibly difficult time. I was only 20 and feeling very vulnerable, thankfully the midwife realsied and asked them to back off.

I have always been very happy to have students there/do procedures when this at polite, introduce themselves and ask permission. Of they are rude they can get lost.

mejypoo Sun 14-Jul-13 18:26:55

You should have been asked. Don't ever worry about telling midwife you don't want anybody else there.

I'm a Radiographer, all student Radiographers have to introduce themselves to patients, and if the patient wants to be imaged by a qualified professional then that is their choice and we respect it. No harm done.

Mrsdavidcaruso Sun 14-Jul-13 20:01:14

This reminds my of My Sister ( a mouthy cow at the best of times) she was in a Gynae ward a couple of years ago. The girl in the next bed was sobbing her heart out so Sis went to comfort her.

Turns out the poor girl had two vaginas and two wombs and was crying because her consultant had arranged for for med students to come and have a look as it so rare she didn't want that to happen but was told by her consultant it was a teaching hospital so had no choice.

When the consultant and his students turned up, my sister pulled the curtains round the girls bed barred the way and told the consultant to bugger off and that he had no right to bully the girl into something that was distressing her. The consultant had to leave along with his students but was not happy.

BlackMini Sun 14-Jul-13 22:56:44

Bloody hell Mrsdavidcaruso! Consultants like that make me very angry.

Mrsdavidcaruso Mon 15-Jul-13 06:13:45

The thing that annoyed my Sis most Blackmini is that whilst they were waiting for the consultant she had spoken the senior nurse on the ward and told her how distressed the girl was and asked her to contact the consultant to tell him that his patient was refusing permission for students, the nurse was very rude ordered her back to bed and to mind her own business, needless to say my Sis ignored her but thought that the nurse should have been on the patients side.

Robotindisguise Mon 15-Jul-13 06:37:13

Hooray for your sister Mrsdavid!

TheFallenNinja Mon 15-Jul-13 06:50:39

If you don't want them in on your next appointment, just give them some pop and crisps and tell them to sit outside smile

AwkwardSquad Mon 15-Jul-13 19:22:51

YANBU, OP, you should have been asked first. If the midwife had explained and asked your permission, you may have felt comfortable enough to say yes. It's about appropriate boundaries and respect, I think.

I had a trainee GP once who asked if it was ok to video the consultation. Apparently it was so that his manner with patients could be assessed. He explained so nicely, I was quite happy to say yes even though normally I'd be mortified at being filmed. (I hasten to add it was a verbal consult only, no disrobing required!)

cardamomginger Mon 15-Jul-13 19:31:01

Hmm. I think 'Doctor in Training' is a somewhat misleading description for a medical student. To me, it suggests someone who has already qualified as a doctor and is doing their training on the ward. A House Officer, in other words.

BreadNameBread Mon 15-Jul-13 23:53:51

You are right. 'doctor in training' implies he already is a Doctor confused.
Maybe he said 'Trainee Doctor' which still sounds better than medical student but is still correct.

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