AIBU in thinking that anyone who had ever actually given birth would never let an 11 year old make the decision to give birth?

(167 Posts)
MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 17:10:45

And that if an 11 year old can't make the decision to have consensual sex she can't possibly understand the complexities of pregnancy and labor? Especially as doctors have said it could kill her?

If you haven't heard of this it's one of the most upsetting stories I have ever read in a long while.

latino.foxnews.com/latino/health/2013/07/10/chile-president-praises-pregnant-11-year-old-maturity-for-keeping-baby/

CailinDana Wed 10-Jul-13 17:16:11

What's the alternative? Forced abortion?

mynameisslimshady Wed 10-Jul-13 17:17:15

The poor child sad thats disgusting especially with her mothers comments too.

The only options are for her to have the baby or be forced into an abortion against her will, which is also unthinkable.

A hidious situation all round. I hope, whatever haens she gets all the help and suport she needs,

mynameisslimshady Wed 10-Jul-13 17:17:34

happens*

lolaflores Wed 10-Jul-13 17:20:25

Physically she is not ready to go through labour surely? Who the fuck is having sex with an 11 year old? It could have killed her?

CarpeVinum Wed 10-Jul-13 17:20:51

Some people would. I'm not one of them. But I don't think the line in the sand over who would prioritise the unborn child and who would prioritise the born (and pregnant) one is split on "I have given birth" lines.

Pleanty of men who will never give birth would not fall on the side of "take the pregnancy to term" in an 11 year old. Pleanty of women who have not yet, and may never, give birth likewise.

Others who has make tiny humans with their very own bodies, would still see it through a God Lens and vote for a live birth.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 10-Jul-13 17:21:32

Awful story. But if she wants to have the baby she is carrying then forcing an abortion on her would probably be as bad as being raped in her mind.

I don't think there's anything else that can reasonably be done.

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 17:22:05

An abortion pill could have been administered yes, but more importantly she should have been counseled towards choosing one. She isn't being there because they are so vehemently anti abortion.

However If my 11 year old was risking death and said she wasn't going to take her medicine I'd make sure she took it.

In 20 years time she can look back at having been give an abortion and knowing that she didn't choose it (and have no guilt over it) or she can be in charge of a baby that she thinks (in her own words) will be a doll despite being the child of the man who raped her

ZZZenagain Wed 10-Jul-13 17:22:21

the poor child. If she was raped repeatedly for 2 years then she was only 9 when that started. How awful her mother claiming this was a consentual relatonship.

I hope the girl does not have to continue living with her mother since it was the mother's partner who fathered the child and the mohter claiming the girl had consented to this is really horrible.

If she doesn't want an abortion, to force it on her on top of everything else she has been through would be cruel but I agree she is far too Young to have to go through labour. I suppose a caesarian would not be available to her either in Chile unless paid for privately.

CarpeVinum Wed 10-Jul-13 17:22:46

Her mother shocked Chileans recently when she defended him saying his relationship was consensual.

That poor child. Raped by her stepfather, and her mother defends him.

CailinDana Wed 10-Jul-13 17:23:12

I'd imagine she'd have to be carefully monitored and maybe delivered early by c-section. I agree it's a terrible situation but forcing her to have an abortion would not make things any better.

AuntieStella Wed 10-Jul-13 17:23:39

I don't think anyone should be forced into an abortion they do not want. Even underage girls who have been raped.

But she will need a huge amount of support and something (and I have no idea what) done to protect her from her abusive family.

Putting her situation into the headlines strikes me as further abuse.

ZZZenagain Wed 10-Jul-13 17:23:53

I wonder if there are any adults advising her outside of her direct family members?

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 17:23:55

Her mother's boyfriend raped her for 2 years. Her mother claims it was "consensual". Its safe to say she hasnt got the best interests of her daughter in mind

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 17:26:10

My feeling is she can't possibly comprehend what birth is like. Or more likely a Cesarian, (i'm sure one will be offered) as she is making world news. I also doubt she will be allowed to "raise" her baby. Has that been expained to her?

CailinDana Wed 10-Jul-13 17:26:24

The mother is as bad as the rapist and should also be charged imo.

CarpeVinum Wed 10-Jul-13 17:27:39

If she doesn't want an abortion, to force it on her on top of everything else she has been through would be cruel

Given where she is, and how much interest an anti abortion leaning gov. has taken in her condition given that they don't want their hand forced over relaxing the current legislation in the face of a public outcry, I am not all that convinced that we can take reports of her wanting to keep the baby as being the result of pure free choice without undue pressure being brought to bear.

SirBoobAlot Wed 10-Jul-13 17:28:33

She doesn't have an alternative. Which is the most disgusting thing.

The president's comments are vile, and her 'mother' is a repulsive human being.

Jan49 Wed 10-Jul-13 17:33:42

Horrible. I think a child in those circumstances should have an abortion. But if she doesn't want one and wants to go ahead with the pregnancy, what would you do? I don't know.

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 17:35:59

times like this my atheism doesn't cut it. I really want the mother and boy friend to rot in hell

MammaTJ Wed 10-Jul-13 17:41:05

That poor girl! Her mother is defending him saying she consented. Her grandmother had to be the one to press for charges to made against him. At least she has one adult on her side in all this, even though, imo, they are still makign the wrong decision. But like others have said, the alternative is forced abortion.

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 17:42:38

if it had been explained that she could die and had labor explained to her a long with understanding that fetus is not a baby yet would she be wanting baby Jan? she has got a choice anyway they're just happy she's saying she wants it.

am currently feeling ill and shit with pregnancy and dreading 3rd trimester. she doesn't even know what's going to hit her sad

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 17:47:45

it is forced but she isn't an adult. Choice is for adults. we regularly force our children to do what's good for them.

vaccines
healthy food
dental visits.
school

McNewPants2013 Wed 10-Jul-13 17:48:22

It's a difficult one.

I will never agree to forced abortions, but this is a child pregnant and putting her in grave danger.

I really don't know what to think.

MortifiedAdams Wed 10-Jul-13 17:52:44

If she isnt enotionally mature enough to know whether she is ready for sex, how on earth is she emotionally mature enough to know she wants to be pregnant, go through labour, and be a mother?

Terrifying situation for her to be put in, her mother and the step father are utter utter bastards.

The fact she said it would be like having a living doll is what scares me. 11 yr olds play with dolls, but a real baby is so very different. She isn't mature enough to know what it's going to be like and I think as hard as it is, I would have to go with abortion.

I agree with MyHumps about the number of decisions we make as parents to keep our children happy, safe and healthy.

I can't even think about the mother and rapist. It's too horrendous.

CarpeVinum Wed 10-Jul-13 18:31:06

I will never agree to forced abortions

I don't believe there are grounds to presume this is a case of desired to term preganancy v forced abortion. I don't think there is any reason to conclude she had been councelled or adviced with her psycological or medical best interests at the heart of the matter.

It is hard enough as a fully grown women, pregnant as the result of consensual sex to push for abortion in the face of social sanction and high level officals breathing down your neck telling you what the "mature" and "right" thing is to do.

What price a level playing field for an 11 yo victim of rape with maternal betrayal having colluded in that repeated rape, with a gov "taking a personal interest" specifically in circumstances where they do not want a high profile case like this to place pressure on them to take a less hardline stance on legal abortion ?

DinoSnores Wed 10-Jul-13 18:36:14

"understanding that fetus is not a baby"

What nonsense! While the medical word for an unborn baby is a fetus, do you have any attachment to the baby currently in your womb or is it just a fetus? Do you scold women who have had stillbirths or miscarriages? We didn't lose a baby, it was just a fetus?!

It sounds like a terrible case but I still don't see a case for forced abortion. Hopefully she will be very cared for in terms of her antenatal care, and I would presume they would do a section, but there is going to have to be a completely different family set up for both children here.

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 18:36:58

Am I wrong in assuming an 11 year old would be extremely high risk for a preterm baby? Does that mean months tied down to a hospital bed getting steroid injections?

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 18:41:55

I have a bundle of cells in my belly dino, I'm sorry if you can't comprehend that. This is what my "baby" looks like
www.wpclinic.org/image/photos/07weeks396x382.jpg

This is what the childs "baby" looks like.
www.health.state.ga.us/wrtk/images/n14weeks.jpg

She is a baby it is only her life I give a fuck about. And I have had a miscarriage thank you, you mourn the loss of a wanted pregnancy because of it's potential. You don't disregard science.

Do you know what an 11 year old looks like?

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 18:42:43

If you don't know the difference between a still born baby and a 14 week old fetus you really should find out before being quite so offensive.

CarpeVinum Wed 10-Jul-13 18:52:09

It sounds like a terrible case but I still don't see a case for forced abortion

Forced abortion isn't on the cards. Becuase abortion is on the legal cards there. What you are most likely looking at is a child being coerced into stating or believing carrying to term is in her best interests. The coersion being motviated by a desire to avoid this case creating a public outcry resulting in a gen. pub. calling for a legal changes to allow for abortion in these circs. Which is a potential issue for the gov there if this girl were to pulically state that she'd abort if given the chance to.

She was used and abused by her mother's boyfried, betrayed bynher mother, and now most likely being coerced rather than honestly and openly councelled, becuase the alternative is that she risks becoming a political hot potato for the anti-abortion leaning segments of the authorities.

However forced conception followed by coersion/forced to carry to term even in a very young girl, doesn't seem to create the same reactions in people as forced abortion does.

SybilRamkin Wed 10-Jul-13 18:53:07

OP, you obviously weren't really asking "AIBU?" because despite most posters disagreeing with you that a forced abortion should take place, you aren't really accepting the majority viewpoint here! Of course it's horrible what the poor kid has been through, and yes, having a baby will be difficult, but sadly she's far from the first eleven year old to be pregnant, and there's a large amount of medical information available to her doctors to make the best decisions for her care.

YABU.

Chunderella Wed 10-Jul-13 18:53:39

Truly horrific situation. That poor child is left either making a decision she cannot possibly have the emotional maturity to understand, or being forced into one of two dreadful courses of action. Both of which would be like a form of torture really. I think it's fairly obvious she hasn't been given any remotely unbiased information. But if, after receiving it, she doesn't want an abortion, I don't know what the hell I'd do. Pray to God, Buddha and Richard Dawkins that she miscarried asap and as safely as possible, I suppose.

I don't think the argument that we force our children to be vaccinated, eat healthily etc is very relevant here though. They're not really the same thing. I can't imagine that anything is like having a pregnant 11 year old other than having a pregnant 11 year old. It doesn't seem to bear a lot of resemblance to ordinary day to day health decisions we all make for our DC.

That poor girl sad I was a teen mother and years older than her and wasn't ready- and being young, it meant it was a dangerous pregnancy for me anyway. For an 11 year old....

DD2 is 13 and the idea of her being pregnant is horrifying. 11 is so young, her life has been destroyed by the rape from 9 and her mother isn't even doing anything and then having to suffer a pregnancy (yes, suffer) and have very high chances of health problems for her and the potential/future baby.

Chunderella Wed 10-Jul-13 19:00:26

Thinking about it, most people would consider both rape and forced abortion to be human rights violations, torture. This little girl has already experienced one, and there's nothing that anyone can do about it. She can't be unraped. Whereas she doesn't have to also have a forced abortion inflicted on her.

But then if this were my DD, I think I'd be knocking her out and dragging her to the abortion clinic myself. Or, in a country where no such clinic existed, sneaking abortificant herbs into her food. Maybe that makes me a bad mother.

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 19:01:32

OP, you obviously weren't really asking "AIBU?" because despite most posters disagreeing with you that a forced abortion should take place, you aren't really accepting the majority viewpoint here!

confused I'm not seeing the majority call me unreasonable. You have, I suppose that counts though.

Pilgit Wed 10-Jul-13 19:02:40

oh gosh. how horribly muddy the issues are here. That poor girl - not only being the victim of repeated abuse (horrid enough) and then to have her own mother defend the abuser. I cannot begin to imagine the pain in all of this and I would completely understand the desire to be rid of the baby in this circumstance.

However what has not been discussed here is the attitude and outlook of the catholic church (and others with a pro life agenda) that human life begins at conception - not birth or viability. Therefore abortion is viewed as murder. The argument (and be aware I am incredibly conflicted on this in just this scenario) is that it is not right to punish one human being for the mistakes (or crimes) of another. Aborting the baby would be to do this - the view is that it is not the baby's fault - so why punish it? (please note it is not the mistake of the girl either, she is a victim in all of this and not wanting her to be punished for the crime makes me very conflicted) Many choose to view a baby conceived in this circumstance as a silver lining to the cloud and choose to think of it as a positive outcome (I guess if you chose to bring the baby to term you would have to otherwise how would you look at the child?). I sincerely hope that this is how she is seeing it and not being forced into this train of thought. I sincerely hope she is being taken care of by people who have her best interests at heart and not still with her mother. And I sincerely hope that anyone else in this situation out there has the non-judgemental support to make the decision that is best for them - whatever that may be. Our right to determine what happens to our bodies as women should be fought for and protected!

maja00 Wed 10-Jul-13 19:03:34

If my 11 year old got pregnant, I would insist on an abortion - as early as possible. I couldn't allow a child to take that kind of risk.

I don't know how I feel.

I don't believe an 11 year old is able to consent to a sexual relationship. In a court of law (in the UK at least) I think a child of her age would not be held responsible for his or her behaviour. However, I don't believe that means a decision should be made for her.

I do believe she should be given lots and lots of counselling to help her make the right choice.

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 19:04:17

chunderella, it depends. I see it as a human rights violation that she has been clearly steered in to thinking she will be safe and healthy and is now going along (not that she has an alternative) with the idea that this will be great fun. She could very easily die or end up chained to a bed with tubes sticking out of her.

I'd be doing the same as you

McNewPants2013 Wed 10-Jul-13 19:04:38

Don't get me wrong if it was my dd I would be strongly encouraging her with an abortion even if it meant bribing her with a luxury hoilday, latest gadgets. Anything.

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 19:08:12

Do you know the youngest mother to give birth was 5?

At what point is young too young to be able to make that decision for themselves?

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 19:09:25
morethanpotatoprints Wed 10-Jul-13 19:10:33

Poor children neither of them have asked for or deserve this.
I hope the mother is prosecuted as well as the stepfather.
What on earth are the adults playing at here.? Was the mother using the daughter as a surrogate, it has crossed my mind.

McNewPants2013 Wed 10-Jul-13 19:11:01

Op I think you have done a very good thread. It has questioned my own views.

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 19:12:27

morethan the daughter had been raped for 2 years she may never have even had a period, the man probably thought it was "safe"

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 19:14:02

mcnewpants, I never thought I would be proforced abortion until I read this story a couple days ago. It's just been making me so angry. I belive in the womans right to choose 100% I just don't believe she is a woman, just a horribley abused child who needs action taken to save her.

5madthings Wed 10-Jul-13 19:19:54

Poor girl.

She isn't making an I formed choice because she hasn't been given decent information/counselling etc it will all be with a pro life agenda.

If my dd got preg in these circumstances I would want her to have an abortion I think. But I guess it has to be her choice but I would want it to be a properly informed choice.

At what age do children get to have a say over medical procedures? It must depend on the procedure? I insisted my 13yr old had a vaccination, he wasn't happy about it but understood what I said went and the nurse sought my consent, not his.

How likely is it that her life will be in danger?

McNewPants2013 Wed 10-Jul-13 19:20:54

My niece has just turned 12 and I would say she is mature for her age but I wouldn't trust her to look after my children.

sue52 Wed 10-Jul-13 19:23:12

She has already had her childhood stolen and now she has no choice but to go through a pregnancy. I hope Chile will be forced to review and change it's abortion law. A horrible and disturbing article.

morethanpotatoprints Wed 10-Jul-13 19:23:39

Myhumps

Hadn't thought of that, its just so horrible and I think human nature to try to rationalise the behaviour of these sick adults. Its just so disgusting and awful to think of the hell the poor kid is going through.

louisianablue2000 Wed 10-Jul-13 19:26:50

Has everyone read the link? This is not a story about a young woman refusing to have an abortion. This is a child who has been sexually abused by her mother's partner for several years. She is now pregnant in a country where abortion is not an option, it is illegal in all circumstances, including the rape of a minor. The (Catholic anti-abortionist) government is holding up this poor child as a shining example of someone who wants to have the baby that is a product of abuse, presumably they couldn't find an adult rape victim who is prepared to be the poster girl for their wonderful anti-abortion message. It's a horrific case where the poor girl is being abused by everyone from her own fucked up family to the leading politicians in her country.

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 19:29:41

5mad, several prominent doctors have spoken about the case and said they think her life will be in danger. I do believe that she will receive the best health care available in the country as if she dies the government will never be able to defend itself.

I wonder what help she will get if the baby is born with special needs as very young mothers are higher risk

CarpeVinum Wed 10-Jul-13 19:30:11

Has everyone read the link?

I think there has been some skimming going on.

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 19:31:45

yes lousiana she wasn't given a choice not to have it, but as the media got hold of the story in the first place it's clearly very important to the government that she look like she want to do it

5madthings Wed 10-Jul-13 19:32:48

Exactly louisianna this girl is not making a choice, she has no choice and its disgusting that she is being used to promote pro-life zealists.

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 19:34:42

I say in some of my posts (^even though she has no actual choice^) but my OP may have been badly phrased as it was the presidents currents comments that led me to posting.

CarpeVinum Wed 10-Jul-13 19:34:57

I do believe that she will receive the best health care available in the country as if she dies the government will never be able to defend itself

But would we hear about it if she or her baby dies ? Citing privacy and her family's unsuitability to care for her.. "poof" ... theorectically she can be disappared to a "wonderful foster home with a new identity to protect her and her child who will be brought up alongside her.

If the gov. is determined that this case will not feed the demand for a relaxation of draconian abortion law they have options over and above full disclousre should they be so inclined to exercise them. Kind of depends how murky things can get over there.

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 19:39:54

that's an awful thought. I hope the media keep the attention on her. I also Hope they can find at least on adult who gives a fuck about her to look after her

Chunderella Wed 10-Jul-13 19:41:02

chunderella, it depends. I see it as a human rights violation that she has been clearly steered in to thinking she will be safe and healthy and is now going along (not that she has an alternative) with the idea that this will be great fun.

I agree with that too.

LynetteScavo Wed 10-Jul-13 19:41:48

"Her mother shocked Chileans recently when she defended him saying his relationship was consensual."

This poor girl need taking away from that mother asap. At last the grandmother has some sense.

I can't help wondering why nature allows girls to be able to get pregnant, when their bodies are still not totally ready to carry a baby and give birth. confused

CarpeVinum Wed 10-Jul-13 19:46:03

I can't help wondering why nature allows girls to be able to get pregnant

Nature doesn't give a fuck. Wastage is factored in. Evolution doesn't produce perfection, good enough is nearer the mark.

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 19:47:08

I don't know either see my link about the 5 year old. am I remembering incorrectly or do young girls start with random ovulating while their body gets ready for sexual maturity?

IneedAsockamnesty Wed 10-Jul-13 19:49:08

Out of interest in the uk if someone's young daughter was pregnant and was saying no to a abortion but her parents wanted her to have one,

What could the parents actually do?

I have an inkling its not much at all other than hope she changed her mind as I reckon it would be unlikely that she could be forced without a court order and a court order would more than likely be very nearly impossible to obtain.

Chunderella Wed 10-Jul-13 19:52:19

If she didn't have capacity, it would be an official solicitor job I think. Not sure if she'd be considered to have capacity, though, and certainly she would receive better counselling than one would in Chile.

5madthings Wed 10-Jul-13 19:54:22

I think periods are starting earlier due to better health/nutrition? Also some children experience precocious (sp) puberty but yes nature isn't perfect.

socking it many depend on age of child etc, you can insist on some medical treatments, I guess it could go to court but it would have to be decided on an individual basis. If drs could show a strong possibility of death/serious harm in continuing with the preg and the girl was young is 9/10? Then maybe the drs and parents should be able to insist?fuck knows it goes against my belief in women having bodily autonomy but these are children we are talking about...

thebody Wed 10-Jul-13 19:58:18

Makes you weep. Not sure who is more hateful here, the abuser defiantly also the mother and the president.

Poor mite. Fucking bastards.

TSSDNCOP Wed 10-Jul-13 20:01:39

In a country where abortion is legal, if a child were subject to sustained and horrific abuse and became pregnant in this manner, debate over the outcome would be so much more open and the pregnant child's best interests could be served.

In a chile where abortion is illegal that debate was already reduced to "so anyway horrifically abused child, about this baby you'll be having". They never provided her with choices and counselled her with all the choices on the table.

She's likely too young to conceive of her body changing, the feeling of carrying a child let alone giving birth and the childs upbringing. It's just too big a concept.

There are no options now because she had no choice. It's just so bloody sad.

And her step father should be strung up angry

TarkaTheOtter Wed 10-Jul-13 20:19:42

Glad I don't belong to a faith where a pregnancy is a "silver-lining" to a raped eleven year old. FFS

ZZZenagain Wed 10-Jul-13 21:15:06

to give birth at 5 is almostvimpossible to imagine. Even though menarche set in atv8 months and she had some breast dvpt, widening of hips etc, her 5 year old body cannot have been ready for childbirth surely.

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 21:39:39

pain in child birth is "eves curse" so a particularly nasty silver lining by religious standards.

5madthings Wed 10-Jul-13 21:44:09

The girl of five had a c section as her pelvis wasn't wide enough for birth.

Surely a child of five/six/seven/eight/ etc you could insist in an abortion? As their parent as they are not old enough to make a decision. But at what age does that change?

megsmouse Wed 10-Jul-13 21:47:20

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ZZZenagain Wed 10-Jul-13 21:48:13

seems she gave birth in 1939 so options just generally limited.

5madthings Wed 10-Jul-13 21:49:40

megs read it and understand the context,the girl is living in a country where abortion is illegal. She gas been brought up to believe it us a sin. Her mother says the girl consented to sex with her stepfather ffs. This girl has not made a real choice or an informed choice in any sense at all.

5madthings Wed 10-Jul-13 21:52:04

But yes I disagree with forced abortion but at what age would we deem a child capablsof making this choice. If your nine year old daughter got pregnant would you let them choose?! Or seven/eight etc. I wouldn't want to force my daughter but at that age and when continuing the pregnancy will put her life at risk I would want her to have an abortion.

ZZZenagain Wed 10-Jul-13 21:52:53

we don't really know if it would be a forced abortion since we don't know if this child was ever offered the option of an abortion, people are saying it is illegal in her country. We also don't know if she has been well advised re pregnancy and childbirth, whether she has been told that she can keep the baby and whwther she has been promised any kind of help with motherhood. If she has simply been told she is going to have a babzy, that babies are beautiful and it will belike having a special doll, maybe she has answered, yes I'd like that.

fuckwittery Wed 10-Jul-13 21:53:21

If that happened here, the child would be assessed for Gillick competency to make the decision to terminate or not - a court would determine this having considered evidence
www.nspcc.org.uk/inform/research/questions/gillick_wda61289.html

If the child did not have Gillick competence, the court would make the decision, having heard evidence from the medical professionals, the parents and the child would be represented in the proceedings by a children's guardian. The local authority would also be represented, child would certainly be in need because of the neglect aspect that a 11 year old was pregnant.

fuckwittery Wed 10-Jul-13 21:54:26

Gillick competency in this country
Age varies

whether or not a child is capable of giving the necessary consent will depend on the child’s maturity and understanding and the nature of the consent required. The child must be capable of making a reasonable assessment of the advantages and disadvantages of the treatment proposed, so the consent, if given, can be properly and fairly described as true consent

5madthings Wed 10-Jul-13 21:59:42

Thanks for the link fuck interesting. Good that they can do that but wonder how they decide, at least it is done on an individual basis, at what age would they use that law! I mean I made my kids have vaccinations and if god forbid my dd got preg at 9/10 yes who would decide if the courts should get involved re abortion. If I wanted it and the drs agreed it was best for medical reasons etc at what point is it decided and by whom that it should go to court?

Agree need for police and social services involvement which I would request myself!

FreudiansSlipper Wed 10-Jul-13 22:00:35

what an awful story poor poor girl sad

she really has no choice she will have been told evil women have abortions, killing a child is a sin and so on (though many back street abortions take place) and after not only being raped but her own mother saying such vile things having a termination could lead her to feeling even worse about herself

and to be used for political scoring is just disgusting

fuckwittery Wed 10-Jul-13 22:03:45

5madthings the doctors would certainly refer it to the local authority social services and either they or the hospital would make an application to court for a declaration the treatment was lawful, the hospital would not risk taking action on a young child without court sanction.

Gillick competancy can be used for any child under 16 but obviously strong presumption that a small child is not competent and a 15 year old, is of average maturity. If a treating doctor has any doubt as whether it is obvious needs to be considered further.

Am saying this from a family lawyer POV, a doctor may be able to comment further

fuckwittery Wed 10-Jul-13 22:04:34

*a 15 year old is competent, if of average maturity

Im guessing the girl knows little about abortion other than it is illegal and a very bad thing.
Raped by her stepfather, failed by her mother, now failed by the country she lives in and used as a political pawn.

Baby at highr risk of birth defects and stillbirth. Girl will go through a lot of pain and trauma, and risk death and deformity. I wish evil things on the two adults in her life.

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 22:11:38

two adults and the president

Yes I hope he gets pregnant by a freak of nature and has to give birth througb his pen is. Wonder hkw quickly hed undictate the law then.

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 22:16:38

I really do hope science sorts out men getting pregnant soon. they'll be handing out abortions like sweets

To triplets

edam Wed 10-Jul-13 22:17:13

oh good grief, that poor girl. Raped, abused, and now under the control of a government that is quite happy to put her life at risk in pursuance of an anti-abortion agenda.

I just hope she doesn't die in labour, poor kid.

When I was pregnant I felt 11. I needed my mum. sad

Sorry meant in labour.
She has all the odds stacked against her

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 22:21:42

coming from someone who is very pro natural labor, I hope she's practically unconscious if she does go through labour. I really canr fathom a child in that kind of pain

fuzzpig Wed 10-Jul-13 22:24:48

God what a horrifying story.

What her mother said was just awful. I was abused as a child and while the abuse itself is just a life event I have worked through, I don't think I will ever get over the fact that my mum refused to let me prosecute her brother. He would never cope in jail, apparently (funny that, what with being a child molester and everything hmm)

CarpeVinum Wed 10-Jul-13 22:26:51

(though many back street abortions take place)

Which incidentally, is where you look if you want to catch a glimps of forced abortion.

I had an illegal backstreet abortion in a non devolped country in my early twenties. The image I am least able to eradicate is the not insignificant number of girls and women who didn't want to be there. Flanked by people determined that they were going to stay, submit and exit unpregnant.

When you take away the legal choice you take away the controls that try to weed out coerced patients too.

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 22:28:35

fuzz sad

edam Wed 10-Jul-13 22:29:55

carpe, that's a very moving post.

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 22:29:57

were they sex workers carpe? they're not worth anything if they can't make money sad

FreudiansSlipper Wed 10-Jul-13 22:31:25

sorry you had to go through that

women should always have the choice and the choice to use contraception and for it to be her choice not forced on her

i lucky i live in a country that we are given that choice

My DD is 11yo so this girls' predicament is particularly harrowing.

Aside from what anyone else thinks about the right of the unborn baby, I hope this girl will be allowed to have a C-Section.
Major surgery, yes.
But the thought of an 11yo going through childbirth [sad

FreudiansSlipper Wed 10-Jul-13 22:33:53

i do not think it will just be sex workers it will be women who are carrying girls, it will be women who's partner/husband do not want more children, it will be girls who's parents feel it is more important to not bring shame on the family than how their daughter feels

70 I suspect that will be decided based on the presidents position on c sections.

God forbid medical evidence or the opinions of the girl or her advocates should come inti it.
I wonder whether her teachers are any supporr

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 22:44:20

they have the lowest rate of female employment in Latin America

CarpeVinum Wed 10-Jul-13 22:44:36

were they sex workers carpe? they're not worth anything if they can't make money

Doubtful. I did at least have enough money for a slightly more expensive abortion, with an (allegedly) real doctor. The bulk of sex workers generally didn't earn enough for that sort of expense. They went to the cheaper places. I never saw inside the real hell holes at the bottom of the market. Know a few men who would only cough up for them and not something more "upmarket" when their paid for girlfriend got pregnant though.

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 22:51:09

from wiki
its a shocking place to be female

Gender roles

Traditional gender role beliefs are prevalent in Chilean society, specifically the ideas that women should focus on motherhood and be submissive to men.[13] A 2010 study by the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) reported that 62 percent of Chileans are opposed to full gender equality. Many of those surveyed expressed the belief that women should limit themselves to the traditional roles of mother and wife.[3][14] However, the 2012 World Development Report states that male attitudes toward gender equality are that "men do not lose out when women's rights are promoted."[15]
Legal rights

Currently, women have many of the same rights as men.[16] The National Women's Service (SERNAM) is charged with protecting women's legal rights in the public sector.[16][17]
Marriage

Until recently, women lost their right to manage their own assets once they were married, but that law has since changed.[18] and husbands received all of the wealth,[5] but now a woman can administer her own assets.[18] A couple can also sign a legal agreement before marriage so that all assets would continue to be owned by the one who brought them to the marriage.[18]

Previously the Chilean Civil Code mandated that wives must live with and be faithful and obedient to their husbands, but now it is not law.[5] A married woman cannot be head of the household or head of the family in the same way as a man; however, married women are not required by law to obey their husbands.[19]

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 22:52:05

that's horrific carpe, we're looking at that in the states right now in a few areas. I really can't wait to get out

Whippetwarmer Wed 10-Jul-13 23:22:01

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_birth_mothers

Sadly this is far from unusual. I got sucked into reading the above wiki page one evening, and I was horrified by it.

aldiwhore Wed 10-Jul-13 23:40:21

I just wonder how you can ever force even a child into getting rid of something that they wish to keep, something inside them, not some toy.

She should be given the respect to have an informed choice. Everything should be done to ensure that she is supported regardless of her choice.

I am not sure what value is given by forcing a woman to abort a baby, nor can I see the value in forcing a woman to have a baby. She should not be steered, groomed, cajoled either way.

sashh Wed 10-Jul-13 23:45:00

Why is everyone going on about forced abortions?

This child does not have the option of an abortion, forced or otherwise.

She is being used as a political pawn, the president is saying, "If an 11 year old can have a baby why do we need legal abortion in Chile?"

5madthings Wed 10-Jul-13 23:52:58

aldi you can force a child to when they don't have the capacity to make a reasonable informed decision. See the links on the last page re laws in this country (UK).

At what age would you say a child cash make this kind if choice?!!

And if you read the article you would see this girl has NO choice, its illegal for her to have an abortion anyway,and there is no way she ius making any kind if choice. She is a child who has been abused and raped and is now being manipulated and used by a pro life, mysoginistic government.

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Thu 11-Jul-13 00:12:35

she's not in any kind of way capable of making an informed choice. even if she were being given a choice.

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Thu 11-Jul-13 00:20:02

he's phrased it as though she's chosen to be pg but abortion for rape or life of mother are illegal there

CarpeVinum Thu 11-Jul-13 00:26:55

he's phrased it as though she's chosen to be pg but abortion for rape or life of mother are illegal there

Exactly. And she could be the catalyst for increased popular support for a change to the current draconian set up if not...nutralised.

thegreylady Thu 11-Jul-13 07:40:54

I am in general against abortion but this is one case where I feel the child should be counselled towards it.
Those photographs though-they show an obviously developing human baby not 'a bunch of cells'. Have an abortion if you are certain it is right but know what you are doing.
This little girl has already been through hell and the mother and stepfather are wicked people.

CarpeVinum Thu 11-Jul-13 08:31:48

Have an abortion if you are certain it is right but know what you are doing.

That's not your call. You don't get to dictate emotional connections over biological reality for other people. And to be honest you would be surprised just how many women on a personal level think "baby" and then abort BECAUSE they think "baby" not "bunch of cells".

To me, while biologically it's embryo, foetus, baby, I've never peed on a stick, seen a positive result and not emotionally connected as anything other than "baby".

If I hadn't I wouldn't have been quite so determined to abort regardless of the high stakes. I could have remain detached to the future of "a bunch of cells", but "baby", not so much. And it wasn't until I made a conscious choice to reject not speaking about my abortion (where relevant, it's not like I go "good morning, coffee? BTW did I ever tell you about my abortion ?") that I discovered I was nothing like as unique as I had believed myself to be.

To be honest I don't think anti-abortion leaning people can ever truly know the range of thought processes and emotional content for women who have them.

It most often takes a degree of trust to reveal the details. And there is no trust that an anti abortion leaning person won't hear rather than listen, only to poke you with the "baby killer" stick just when they think they have you at your most vulnerable.

So naturally enough people tend to be a bit cagey and your lot in particular only get to hear the emotionally disconnected discourse of debate rather than human experience.

Plus there is the issue that the only really socially acceptable admittance of abortion is to express regret and a long term price paid. So a quite skewed picture emerges on both sides of the fence.

There tends to be quite a few shocked faces when you are quite clear that the abortion is not regretted and by and large no terrible price was paid. I think the majority of people regret getting pregnant in the first place. But that doesn't generally appease people who, even when reasonably fence sitting/slightly pro choice, do prefer to see a universal, massive haematoma on hearts as some kind of penance.

To reveal yourself as pretty much unscathed in the longer term doesn't really fit the preferred vision where abortion has long term physical and emotional ramifications as a rule and pregnancy and birth does not. Despite evidence pointing to the preferred vision being the direct opposite of reality.

exactly sashh. I doubt she even thinks abortion is an option. Her statement sounds suspiciously like what they want her to say. No one would physically pin her down for an abortion (I hope!) but as a just out of primary school aged child she NEEDS a lot of guidance as to what is best for her current and long term health and wellbeing. It's impossible to be independent as everyone will have an opinion but at the moment she is definitely only getting one side.

CarpeVinum Thu 11-Jul-13 08:43:58

Her statement sounds suspiciously like what they want her to say

Almost as if it were written for her. And then reported as being the reality.

Ultimatley even if she were actually plonked in front of a press conference and said the same, (given how high the stakes are for the gov. in question should she become a catalyst that provoked even more popular support for a relaxing of the current legal status of abortion,) it would be impossible to be certain that she wasn't parrotting what she was told to say on pain of sanctions as soon as she got off camera.

Bonsoir Thu 11-Jul-13 08:46:48

Abortion is not an option.

What do you mean Bonsoir? Because it's illegal?

xylem8 Thu 11-Jul-13 08:59:12

If she has conceived her body has obviously reached sexual maturity so I am not sure why people think her body would not be able to cope with the physical aspects of preganancy and birth, although with being so young she might have a CS particularly as she is a high profile case and they won't be wanting anything to go wrong.

xylem8 Thu 11-Jul-13 08:59:54

The emotional aspects are of course something else!

Health and social outcomes are much poorer for younger mothers and their babies. And that research will have been done on older children than her.

CarpeVinum Thu 11-Jul-13 09:13:11

If she has conceived her body has obviously reached sexual maturity

There is no lack of literature that reveals the distinct disadvantages to both mother and child where pregnancy takes place in the very young and the young.

Aside from that, the biological doesn't tend to be our line in the sand. Emotional maturity does. Hence the laws prohibiting pedophilia. If you take the view that precocious onset of breast development and menarche is proof positive that the child is physically and emotionally ready to see a pregnancy to term and give birth it is contradictory to then say "but not so much for sex".

If you read the list of the world's youngest mothers, many of them started to menstruate very early, some at under a year of age. Almost all of them were being sexually abused by an adult known to the family. Some were being prostituted by their own family. Their readiness for anything based on that physical and emotional trauma alone needs to be questioned.

Nature doesn't "design" us. It is not a well rounded, individuated plan that does't give an individual more than they can cope with. It aims for good enough, has blips and hiccups.

That's why we write laws rather than base our assumptions of a child's readiness for sexual activity and reproduction on the specific stage of biological development in a child.

CarpeVinum Thu 11-Jul-13 09:13:33

x-post

xylem8 Thu 11-Jul-13 09:17:28

But in many countries it is legal to marry at 12

CarpeVinum Thu 11-Jul-13 09:25:04

But in many countries it is legal to marry at 12

As is female circumscision, bear baiting, cock fighting, non medically trained practisioners performing "medecine" on people, stoning of adulteresses etc. etc. etc.

Legality is not necessarily a good measure of "best practice and good outcomes".

Early matrimony and reproduction tends to exist in greater numbers where lifespan is short. Lengthened life span and better overall lifetime health is both a consequence and a factor in delayed matrimony and sexual activity.

CarpeVinum Thu 11-Jul-13 09:28:51

Ah sorry see what you mean, when I said "we" I mean "we" as in British or British equivilent, not "we" as in global humanity.

LessMissAbs Thu 11-Jul-13 10:34:11

Wasn't there a similar case in Ireland a few years ag, where the Church gave money for the child, who had been raped by an uncle, to give birth and drop plans for an abortion?

CarpeVinum Thu 11-Jul-13 11:13:24

It might not be the same case, but again in Ireland, a young girl preganant as a result of insectual rape...the gov. took away her right to travel so she couldn't go to Britian for an abortion.

OrangeJuiceSandwich Thu 11-Jul-13 12:09:12

11 is such a difficult age. While she clearly doesn't really have a choice to make, she has stated what she wants to happen. I can't imagine living on a society with forced abortion anymore than I can imagine saying, as a Mother than my child agreed to a sexual relationship with my boyfriend.

However, in this country isn't it at 11 or so that you can decide whether or not you to want to see a NRP. That is also a seriously major decision for anyone to make. So it seems on one hand we feel an 11 year old child is capable of deciding whom they will or will not have in their life, but we don't feel,as a majority, than an 11 year old is truly able to decide what to do about something happening inside her own body.

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Thu 11-Jul-13 12:26:05

xylem8. so the 5year old who gave birth... Hey body was ready for it?

PdHeatonsingingfafafa Thu 11-Jul-13 12:35:16

Pro Choice has to mean pro choice. Anybody found guilty of sleeping with an 11 year old should be punished with the strictest sentence but you cannot oppose a ban on abortion but enforce abortion on others.

ZZZenagain Thu 11-Jul-13 12:56:08

except that for underage dc whose choice is it to make? Is it the dc or the mother (for example the mother who claims her dd agreed to being raped by her stepfather in this instance or perhaps the grandmother)?

PdHeatonsingingfafafa Thu 11-Jul-13 12:58:05

It's the choice of the girl. The 'mother' who said there was consent should be jailed for abetting crime and removed from the situation entirely. Te girl should then be given extensive counselling to help her understand the situation she is in.

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Thu 11-Jul-13 13:00:55

women believe in "prochoice" because they are adults who can make that choice and it's wrong for the state to say it knows better. however a child is rarely give full autonomy over their own body. I would not even let an 11 year old decide their own bed time or dinner because they don't know what is best for themselves. if your11 year old had treatable cancer would you let them opt out of their medicine?

5madthings Thu 11-Jul-13 13:02:30

If only that would happen bit she isn't getting that option.

And as others have said in the UK decisions like this can be made by the courts if a child is judged not to be mature enough to make an informed choice.

I a, totally pro choice and find myself really torn by this, but in this situation the girl involved is not able t make am choice and is simply being used as a political pawn sad

In the UK, as, police and the courts could get involved and if a child wasn't deemed capable then the drs, her parents/guardians and the courts would make a decision that was deemed to be in their best interests.

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Thu 11-Jul-13 13:03:40

do you think she has any idea what pregnancy and birth will be like? let alone raising a preterm baby which she's under the impression she'll be allowed to do

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Thu 11-Jul-13 13:06:48

I so wish there were actual doctor involved 5 mad things who gave a fuck enough to not let her be violated a second time by birth or section

5madthings Thu 11-Jul-13 13:08:59

I doubt she has any idea odmthe realities of pregnancy birth etc, I mean how much did you k ow before you and your first? I knew the basic mechanics of it, but not the reality.

PdHeatonsingingfafafa Thu 11-Jul-13 13:09:19

She probably has no idea. But she has to be made to realise. Myhumps, id my 11 year old had cancer and wished to opt out of treatment, I'd talk to him/her and make sure his decision was what he/she really wanted. Would I force them to go through painful/disturbing treatment that they didn't want? No.

CarpeVinum Thu 11-Jul-13 13:10:41

she has stated what she wants to happen

I am perplexed as to why people look at the context of this case and leap to the conclusion that we can be wholly reassured that

a) her preferrence jibes with the gov. acting as her spokesperson.

b) the ethics of informed consent and individualised councelling have been observed with the patient's well being being the absolute priority.

c) her capcity to be a catalyst for increased popular support towards the relaxation of abortion laws and the gov's reluctance to consider said relaxation is not a factor in how her views are being presented by 3rd parties nor potentially a factor in how she has been advised by medical and "spirtual" authorites.

cannot oppose a ban on abortion but enforce abortion on others

Which is why a legally sanctioned choice based system is best. Becuase without it there are no controls that intend to weed out cases of forced or coersed abortion.

However in this case what we are looking at is not a risk of enforced abortion, but a context of a national ban on abortion without exceptions and enforced carrying to term and birth. Which apparently doesn't ruffle nearly as many feathers nor cause people to cast even a smidgen of doubt the validity of what gov. spokespeople are presenting as her fully informed choice.

As I understand it children are involved and do participate in any life changing medical proceedures and treamemnts they may need, in terms of informed choice and consent. I see no reason why that shouldn't or isn't extended to termination. However I don't believe the same standard of ethics can be assumed to be in practice in this case.

5madthings Thu 11-Jul-13 13:12:34

PD if a child wants to refuse treatment drs can and do go to courttk decide if a child jaa the proper understanding amd capacity to make an I formed choice, I think even if parents support the child's decision the drs and courts can still intervene.

ZZZenagain Thu 11-Jul-13 13:14:11

other article
If she could get to Uruguay she would be able to have a legal abortion but I doubt anyone is offering her that option. Seems Chile did allow abortions for medical reasons until 1973 when Pinochet's govt made an absolute ban on abortion. Since paediatricians have said both the girl and her baby are at risk, this would be a case for intervening on medical grounds. If the law permitted this in the past, I could see it being reintroducedl. After all these are not Pinochet's days even if Chile is generally conservative.

From this article it sounds as if a lot of people in Chile feel she should have the option.

Awful situation. Just awful sad. Poor girl. However I do feel she should be allowed a say in this. It is her body, her baby. Just because she is young doesn't mean she won't be feeling the emotional bond many mothers feel with their unborn child. To force an abortion could cause her life long mental trauma, and she has been through enough already.

ZZZenagain Thu 11-Jul-13 13:26:59

just did a search and found out that a 9 year old gave birth in Mexico this year and a 10 year old in Colombia.

CarpeVinum Thu 11-Jul-13 13:35:45

To force an abortion could cause her life long mental trauma, and she has been through enough already.

Excpet that isn't going to happen to her.

There is ZERO risk of that.

The risks this child potentially faces are life long mental truama, physcial harm and even death from forced gestation and birth. Becuase her pregancny is known to the authorities and she lives in a country with no access to abortion regardless of the circumstances of the preganancy.

The child at risk of forced abortion is the child with a pregancny unknown to the authorities , where national access is limited to backstreet options where one cannot count on medical ethics flourishing and being all that concerned about issues like consent, informed or any other flavour.

chocoluvva Thu 11-Jul-13 14:41:26

xylem an 11YO is very likely to suffer internal damage as a result not just of delivering the baby but by carrying the baby to full/ nearly full term: damage to her bladder is highly likely.

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Thu 11-Jul-13 14:48:24

She won't have been told any of that while she's giving soundbites to the media about how she's "chosen" to keep her baby.

Even if she had been told and was scared shitless she'd not be allowed to abort it. She's doing this because they're "good" Catholics and that's what you do. Women are only as good as their uteri.

xylem8 Thu 11-Jul-13 15:21:47

just did a search and found out that a 9 year old gave birth in Mexico this year and a 10 year old in Colombia.

The youngest recorded mother was a 5 yr old who gave birth to a 6lb baby

5madthings Thu 11-Jul-13 16:23:29

xylem the link to the five yr old and others has already been posted. Most of them had to have c sections to Orem babies, some of the babies died during birth. Yes young girls get preg but it causes physical rems. If it weren't for c sections both girl and baby would often die in childbirth.

In many of these cases the girls had had precocious puberty, this is often treated now with medications to stop menstruation etc. The fact that young girls get preg and have babies doesn't make it OK. If you look at the list lots of them were made pregnant by close family members, friends, the girls won't have been in a consensual relationship. They were abused.

chocoluvva Thu 11-Jul-13 17:02:08

Girls who are pregnant while still in their teens (or younger obviously) have a greater risk of pre-eclampsia.

In many countries one of the factors that would classify a pregnancy as 'high risk' are being under 17 years old.

What point are you trying to make by citing examples of very young girls who have given birth xylem?

Guessing that if she survives this baby she wont be having any more. sad
I wish someone medical could just talk to her.

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Thu 11-Jul-13 18:29:47

I can think of two points xylem could be making. they either think children are ready for sexual contact based on their ability to get pregnant, or their are extremely antichoice of adult women and hoping that stories like this won't make women think too hard about abortion.

xylem8 Thu 11-Jul-13 18:39:34

No point really .I don't condone preteens having babies!!Just following on from the post about the 9 yo

xylem8 Thu 11-Jul-13 18:41:12

I donm't think 11 yos are ready for sexual contact obviously!! But the point I am making is that in a primitive society , and in the animal world females would be getting pregnant as soon as they were sexually mature, and presumably most survive

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Thu 11-Jul-13 18:47:53

xylem fucking vets tell people to wait before letting their animals breed for the health of the animal. these pregnancies aren't called high risk because they are so safe

chocoluvva Thu 11-Jul-13 18:49:56

In primitive societies girls often don't get their periods till later then girls in developed countries.

CarpeVinum Thu 11-Jul-13 19:24:58

I donm't think 11 yos are ready for sexual contact obviously!! But the point I am making is that in a primitive society , and in the animal world females would be getting pregnant as soon as they were sexually mature, and presumably most survive

No. Not most. Enough survive. Enough for evolution not to keep on evolving so birth isn't so inherently risky for females and babies in that species.

Girls (the human kind) under 15 are twenty times more likely to die during pregnancy and birth than women over 20. Their children are at a higher risk of prematurity, stillbirth and being part of the infant mortality stats as well as the perinatal mortality stats.

To give context, birth even in countries with low perinatal mortality such as the states is 14 higher than abortion in the same country. Birth has always been dangerous and potentially deadly. The more risk factors added on (and precocious pregnancy is a high risk factor) the greater the potential for injury and death.

And survive does not necessarily mean a good outcome in the physical (let alone the emotional) sense. For an example of just one post birth complication, the rate of fistula leading to shunning and increased degrees of poverty is high in cultures with poor obstetric care. The rate and degree of damage is higher still in younger mothers. I cried buckets at the waste of female humanity as the result of fistula alone after watching a documentary. They were alive. But, whole they were not. Not physically, not emotionally and not psychologically. Being a pariah is no way to live.

Very many of the girls on the list of known very young mother suffered from precocious puberty, an anomaly, with menarche as young as the first year of life and breast development in toddlerhood. Something that tends to get treated these days where quality medical care allows for it.

Nature is not some wise, fluffy entity that knows best. Nature does not care. As long as enough (not most, not many, just enough) of us survive, regardless of state of wellbeing and intactness, then that is "good enough" for nature.

And anybody who remains unconvinced of that needs to google birth in hyaenas and then come back and see if they still think nature is in anyway invested in "most" of any species of mothers or babies surviving for their own sake.

CarpeVinum Thu 11-Jul-13 19:28:28

edit

To give context, the maternal mortality rate of birth even in countries with low perinatal mortality such as the states, is 14 higher than the maternal mortality rate of abortion in the same country

Chunderella Thu 11-Jul-13 19:57:45

No. Not most. Enough survive. Enough for evolution not to keep on evolving so birth isn't so inherently risky for females and babies in that species.

Exactly. That's how evolution works. It isn't necessary for all or even the majority of a species to survive. Just enough of them to keep going. If a process, mutation, whatever, is sufficiently advantageous in other ways, it can make evolutionary sense despite being intrinsically dangerous. Birth amongst humans being a classic example. And of course being able to conceive doesn't mean your body can safely carry a pregnancy and give birth. Even if that were the normal way of things, which it's not, there are always people whose bodies do things 'wrongly'.

NapaCab Thu 11-Jul-13 20:01:37

It's a tragic case and the saddest aspect of it is how it's clearly being manipulated by the media to focus on the debate about abortion laws. The situation she is in would be awful no matter what the abortion laws are. I think it's important to debate abortion in a country like Chile where it's illegal but it's sad that it takes a case like this to get people interested in the issue.

CarpeVinum Thu 11-Jul-13 20:41:58

edit

I am doing so well today... hmm

Girls (the human kind) under 15 are five times more likely to die during pregnancy and birth than women over 20.

edam Thu 11-Jul-13 21:11:30

Napa - it's not 'being manipulated by the media'. The girl is being manipulated by her disgusting stepfather, by her mother and by the government. The media are doing their job by holding the government to account.

QueenStromba Thu 11-Jul-13 23:57:13

I hope this girl and her baby are given into the care of her grandmother - she is the only person who seems to have her best interests at heart.

I felt very sad reading the wiki link about the youngest mothers. Not only had all of these girls reached sexual maturity by the age of ten but they'd also been abused by that age. I was especially saddened by the girl who was a grandmother by the age of 17 - not only was she abused but her daughter was too. Unfortunately pregnant 11 year olds seem to be far too common to bother reporting.

sashh Fri 12-Jul-13 03:43:37

If she has conceived her body has obviously reached sexual maturity so I am not sure why people think her body would not be able to cope with the physical aspects of preganancy and birth

There are huge problems in Pakistan where young girls are married and give birth. They are often left incontinent, their husband and family no longer want them, often he husband finds another child to marry and the same happens again. Other than 'simple' incontinence it s common to a have a fistula that means urine continually feeds into your vagina.

The day you start your periods is not the day your body is ready to carry a baby.

www.jpma.org.pk/full_article_text.php?article_id=1896

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