to think it's wrong to leave a baby/toddler sleeping alone in a hotel room?(766 Posts)
When you have a monitor and are still in the premises?my friend says she does it when on holiday, she goes to the bar/restaurant and responds to the monitor if her 2yo dd wakes, I was shocked and said I wouldn't ever want to, I stay in the room and read a book/have a bath. Aibu to think what she's doing is wrong? I don't want to refer to famous cases but to me there's too much risk.
Yes she is wrong and may I add a fucking moron.
Has she timed how quickly she can run her selfish ass back to the room?
If it's over 30 seconds she may as well turn off the baby monitor for all the good it is going to do her.
I don't want to refer to famous cases
And yet you have, with that statement.
Yanbu - I wouldn't. The example someone always gave to me was what if there's a fire alarm and they won't let you back in the building to collect your child?
It takes longer to get from DHs workshop attached to the house, or even his study than to some travel lodge rooms we have had.
Would that happen? They wouldn't let you back in to get your stuff out of the room, but to collect a child? I'd like to see them stop me.
That said, I still wouldn't do it. My son would be frightened if he woke up in a strange room without one of us. Once he's asleep he's not bothered by noise so I'd have a glass of wine and watch telly.
These threads normally don't go we'll though
It's wrong. If the toddler wakes s/he could get up to mischief or wander off without the parent knowing. If there's a fire the child may be trapped. If the parent leaves the bedroom door locked, it restricts the number of people who might get in and the toddler from wandering but may mean they're trapped in the case of a fire. If the door is unlocked, the child might wander or a stranger might go in. Locking the door doesn't keep the child safe from strangers anyway as so many staff will have keys.
I think the biggest risks are the child wandering or doing something dangerous in the room and the risk of fire, rather than strangers.
Idiotic. Apart from anything else DC would terrified if they woke up alone! It's not worth the risk, you can't be sure a room you are unfamiliar with is truly childproof. As for 'I'd like to see them stop me' statement - right you're stronger than several other people combined are you? Don't be foolish.
Yabu its dependent on the situation.
She isn't asking you to do it so leave her alone.
And at the famous cases, ooh like you didn't realise what your implying. Have a little conviction and actually make your point instead of hinting at it.
I think its to prevent the usual post of "two words - madeleine mccann"
We did it once, would never do it again
I have been trying to explain to my DSis that when later this month we are staying over night in the same hotel as her and her DP for a family event DH and I cannot "leave 19 mo DS sleeping in his room and get pissed in the bar with her"
To be fair she doesn't have DCs so doesn't really get it but honestly No.
ask her if life and safety of her son is more important than money she saves
It takes longer to get from DHs workshop attached to the house, or even his study than to some travel lodge rooms we have had.
IMHO making that a usual practice doesn't make it right
YANBU, of course it's wrong.
I just can't imagine anyone of sound mind doing this.
Anyone remember the Butlins/Pontins child watch scheme from the 60s/70s/80s when you registered your room number and a member of staff listened outside your chalet for babies crying (every 20 mins I think it was)? If they heard anything your room number would be flashed up on a sreens round the camp so you could return to see to your child/children? It seemed 'normal' then and most parents did it - but nowadays...? Has the world changed so much? Sad to say, but it has.
Surely the size of the hotel makes a difference and the location of the room. In some small hotels my dd would be closer than she would at home. I've never done it as I've not had need to but I could see it being done in a small hotel but not a big one.
Personally I think I would do it, if the monitor reaches you can get therein no time.
I really wouldn't, and can't imagine why anyone would. Perhaps I am pfb.
Exactly, its the size and layout of the hotel, the age and temperament as well as sleep patterns of your child, the design of the room and what they're sleeping in, the destination, the place where you are and what you're doing while they're sleeping etc etc etc ....
Um isn't this exactly what happened with Madeleine - left in apartment room (ok apartment not hotel but still), whilst parents went for dinner. No difference surely?
Too many variables - IMO it can be fine and it can be very irresponsible depending on lots of things - I'd judge each evening on its own. I have friends who've done it with a video monitor in a very small hotel to have dinner with me.
Cannot believe people would seriously consider doing this.
So if you happen to live in a large house, you stay next to your toddler's bedroom all night do you? Just in case?
There is no difference between being on the ground floor of a 3 storey house with the toddler on the 3rd floor than being in the bar of a small hotel.
I did it once, back when my eldest was about 1. It was at a small hotel and it was a private party with a group of mums and dads (one of whom's parents owned the hotel). We were in the bar bit and the rooms were just up the stairs, we all had our baby monitors and the kids were in cots so couldn't get out and wander.
This was in 2003 (if my memory is right!) - I never did it again though as I felt very 'not right' about it, and definitely Madelaine McCann has often made me think again with regards to a certain degree of complacency that you can have when things have 'never happened to you'.
I think that there is an awful lot of molly-coddling goes on with regard to older children getting out to play etc, but leaving a child on their own whilst you are on the piss? Something I wouldn't do myself again.
The difference is the amount of unknown people in the hotel.
I would be worried they'd drink the mini-bar dry and spend the evening watching the one handed channels.
No, I would never do this. I'd also be really unhappy if DP did it (he never would) or anyone taking care of our DCs.
There are too many reasons not to, and the only reasons to do it are selfish.
Nope, never have, never will.
It depends entirely on the layout of the hotel. One where you have a ground floor room which you can reach in seconds and from which the monitor indubitably works is a whole different consideration from being several floors away.
We went to a family hotel recently and everyone did this. The hotel even provided the baby monitors and everyone had them on their tables at dinner.
I think it does depend on the size of the hotel. This was a small hotel and the DCs were as close to us as they would have been at home. We tested the monitor and it was very sensitive. You could hear the DCs breathing and the monitor lit up if there was any additional noise - eg when DS rolled over.
We went to different family hotel and our room was further away so we hired a babysitter who was recommended by the hotel (most people used the monitors here too). In some ways that made me less comfortable as I didn't know them from Adam (although they were from an agency and had been CRB checked etc).
Oh, it's an every stranger's a paedophile thread.
Is it curlew? I would disagree.
No way, not ever - DS would be scared if he woke up without DH or I. I'd live without the night out or take him with us.
Cases like Madeleine's also make me uneasy, as rare as it is.
And I'm not sure the McCann case is terribly relevant here, as OP wasn't describing leaving the premises totally, nor lack of continuous monitoring via alarm.
I don't think that's the case at all curlew.
There are many reasons that prevent me from leaving my child alone. A random paedophile just happening to be in the vicinity is way down the list.
To imply not wanting to leave your babies alone in hotel rooms makes you think enough to assume every stranger is a danger is quite insulting.
I agree Stella. The McCann case involved the parents leaving the building unlocked (and open?) and going to another place. There were long periods of time where the children were unmonitored and a parent could not have known there was a problem.
I still would not leave a child unattended in a hotel even with a baby monitor, but what the OP proposes is not what the McCann group did.
The likeliest risk is that the child leaves the bed and encounters a hazard. This can be mitigated by continuous monitoring with a good quality alarm. But you won't know if the signal path from the room is good enough until you test it out. So unless you always go back to the same hotel, you can't know until arrival, so is hard to rely on.
A ground floor room which you can reach in seconds means you can attend to your (monitored) DC as quickly as you would do at home. Ditto for scenario of hotel fire alarm (or home smoke alarm) going off. Being on a different floor loses time, and you may not be permitted up the stairs.
How much fun can a meal be either you are constantly watching and listening to a box on the table?
You don't know who has access to the room.Its completely different to being in your own home.
Anyone remember the Butlins/Pontins child watch scheme from the 60s/70s/80s when you registered your room number and a member of staff listened outside your chalet for babies crying (every 20 mins I think it was)? If they heard anything your room number would be flashed up on a sreens round the camp so you could return to see to your child/children? It seemed 'normal' then and most parents did it - but nowadays...? Has the world changed so much? Sad to say, but it has.
Can't believe that we used to do this quite happily when DS was a baby . A real case of 'If I knew then what I know now'.....!
WE have 3 adults with SN and 2 DC's with SN there is no way we would leave them on their own. Sod our sex life we sleep in rooms separately me girls him boys.
Regarding meals we all go or eat in room
I'm surprised that the consensus is overwhelmingly against. I thought it would be more of an even split.
Tbh, we've done it. Only in tiny hotels where the restaurant is about a minute's walk away and taking it in turns to nip back and check every 10 minutes, but it was that or sit in the room with them in the dark without making a sound! They were a bit older than toddler age then though. I wouldn't do it in a big hotel or with a child under the age of 3.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Curlew - pointing out that a hotel has public access and you don't know who may be working or staying there is not tantamount to suggesting every stranger is a paedophile.
You made the point that it's no different to being downstairs in a large 3 storey house, and people were simply correcting you, that there may not be a difference in distance, but a hotel is totally different to a private house where you know who is in it
And these people are going to get into your locked hotel room exactly how?
My DC recently had seizure in his sleep while we were staying in a hotel. He was in our room and we woke with a start when he fell out of bed. So glad that we have never been tempted to leave him to sleep on his own in hotels. Very scary experience. It was his first and hopefully only seizure.
If we hadn't been there the outcome could have been very different.
I doubt that a monitor would be very effective in a noisy bar!
Umm with a hotel key curlew, it's not exactly rocket science. Could be knicked from the parent or anything.
It's not worth the risk IMO, but each to their own.
so parents who are not agains this do it with a full knowledge that someone else has access to that hotel room?
i.e. spare/emergency keys for hotel staff?
Haha have you never been broken into?
Unless.it's an alarmed lock I am sure it wouldn't pose too much of a problem.
So the hotel staff are paedophiles?
Curlew here are a short series of problems with your comparison:
1. Probably the vast majority of people do not live in houses that are the size of even small hotels. Hell, a fair minority of the population live in flats, and that's before we consider the little two up two downs.
2. Probably the vast majority of hotels are bigger than even large houses.
3. Even in the small percentage of situations involving people who are staying in hotels that are smaller than their houses and , the hotel is likely to contain more people they do not know than their house is.
Keys curlew. Those things hotel workers have.
Another key difference between a hotel and a private house is that most parents in a large house would probably leave the bedroom door ajar. They certainly wouldn't lock it, which slows down access in the event of an emergency
So you won't leave your sleeping child in a locked hotel room with a monitor because the hotel staff (who are the only other people with a key) might be a paedophile.
Or there might be an unspecified emergency. And it would take you 15 second longer to get into the room than it would at home.
Depends which hotel you are at.
It's not like they crb check bell boys is it!
And before you start I am not suggesting that ALL hotel staff are pedos.
But ofcourse there is a risk.
It just boils down to whether you, as a parent, are willing to take it.
(and no it is not like just at home unless your house is full of strangers you don't know from Adam and all there is is a flimsy lock.on your door)
I'm beginning to pick up that you have an obsession with paedophiles curlew.
Look: hotel staff have been known to steal from hotel rooms. An unknown person entering the room would be extremely scary for a child.
(I am aware of course that fire, theft, medical emergency are all unlikely events; I am just suggesting to curlew that there are a variety of reasons why parents wouldn't feel comfortable, and trying desperately to distract him/her from the paedophile obsession )
Lock on your *childs door
Smites - the reason could be 'cos most people who would be ok with it can't be bothered coming onto threads like this.
People have already made up their minds and are quick to judge those who make different choices.
I have done it twice. Both times he was in a travel cot so could not climb out. Was before the Madeline McCann case though. Everyone did it when I was small, hotels had a listening service.
I wouldn't do it. Not because of the paedophiles hiding in the maids trolley, but because my over active imagination means I wouldn't relax.
MM went missing about 3 weeks before I had my first DC. Would I have been different if she hadn't? Maybe. But I can tell you that although I'm fairly chilled about most things, leaving the DC unattended on holiday isn't one of them. Sad but true.
Primallas- yes, there's also the issue of them getting out of bed. God knows what my 2 year old would have got up if he'd found himself alone in a hotel room ...
I have to disagree with those saying that a child upstairs in a hotel room is no different to up a few flights of stairs in your own large house.
For example - in the event of a fire alarm or other emergency, YOU would then be trying to battle your way through the crowds of people coming down the stairs to get back up to your frightened child, and having to waste precious time explaining yourself
I have also found a neighbours child sobbing in the street at 730 one morning not knowing where her mum was - mum as it turned out had popped down the road to another friends house for a few minutes thinkg DD would not waken. I know someone else who drove their Dh to the station leaving 2 pre school children asleep in their beds every day and thought this was fine as they were in a very rigid sleep routine and would not waken in the 1/2 hour she was gone. Of course she knew she would never break down or be delayed or involved in an accident.
Curlew you are being deliberately obtuse in asking people to explain their reasoning then twisting it.
Would you leave your passports and money on the bed of your hotel room? There's a reason hotel rooms have safes. I don't use one at home but sure as hell do in hotels purely for the reason that that any number of people have access to keys.
So for the same reason I agree as hell wouldn't leave my dc. But, as many people have said, there are numerous reasons why it's a stupid thing to do v before you even get to the paedophile with a key.
You seem quite quick to belittle people who choose to our their children's well-being over dinner in peace and quite quick to deny the fact there are dangerous people out there. It's not a myth. Rare, thankfully, but not non-existent. No one was being hysterical, you seem keen to imply they were though.
Why is that?
yanbu. I can't imagine doing that even with a slightly older child, but her baby so totally her decision
Curlew - fear of abduction etc is a long, long way down the list of reasons I wouldn't do this
The top reasons are probably
Wouldn't feel right
Wouldn't be able to relax
Worried DS would be unsettled in unfamiliar surroundings
Concern over DS getting out of cot and having some sort of accident
Concern over fire in a place where I don't know they layout as well as home
Id also add to catgirls list: my 2 years olds bedroom was child- friendly, so when he did climb out of his cot/ bed, he couldn't do much harm to himself or what was in the room .
Not so with a hotel room
I did it when ds1 was a baby several times (he's 11 now). Always with baby monitor. Usually in very small hotel, but once ot twice in a large one. I wasn't happy in the larger ones-so never went out for long. By the time we had the twins ds1 was old enough to wander so we just sat outside the room til they went to sleep and then read our books in the room with them.
Tbh I'd never considered the fire scenario and I always was very open with hotel staff and no one ever said anything. We used a baby listening service once in a very chic boutique family hotel-I thought it was a crap idea because ds1 only cried if he was upset and he's be hysterical if he'd been left to do it for 20 minutes. So I bolted my dinner and went back to him very quickly.
Would I do it now? Probably not because I'd feel uncomfortable, but I don't think it's logical. When my kids are in the back of a villa and we're in the garden or when they're in the tent and I'm in my friends gazebo the next tent along I don't really think anything about it.
There was a thread on here once about letting your dc camp out in the back garden-I said I wouldn't because there's been burglars in my back garden 3 times that I know of-lots of people thought I was mad.
I wouldn't do it, we tend to take the buggy on holidays ( DC don't need them anymore) but it provides a place for them to sleep.
They are far more likely to harm themselves than come into danger from a stranger which is reason enough not to leave young children unattended, in saying that I wouldn't leave my most expensive jewelry/credit cards/passport/bank details on the bed while I went on the piss for obvious reasons. There are bad people in this world and it's the parents responsibility to be there to protect their young children from them. There is no excuse for leaving children unattended, if you can't get a babysitter or take them with you, then stay with them.
Ds was always a
good brilliant sleeper, so we had no issues with doing this.
Travel cot when he was 2 (which he never tried to climb out of), villa holiday/holiday with family for the next couple of years and then for the next 7 years, the same small family run Greek hotel where ds would sometimes sleep on the floor under our table (having gone up on his own to his room to get a pillow) and sometimes (or later) up in his room while we were still downstairs.
As parents, we all make our own differing judgements as to what is appropriate or safe. I'm comfortable with the decisions we made but am not going to judge other people for making different ones.
Not my way but not judging( for a change)
I think it all depends on specific circumstances as well to be honest. Size of hotel, room location, etc.
Certainly not abroad as its lovely to sit outside with a wine and a sleeping child in your lap.
YANBU. It is wrong, totally and utterly wrong.
Curlew, there is every difference. You are in the same building, you would hear smoke alarms going off, you would have much more chance of hearing somebody breaking in.
Absolutely no chance.
Leaving my hotel reception shift at 11pm once, I found a 2yo wandering the car park looking for his parents. Poor thing was distraught.
Found said parents pissed out of their heads at the bar.
He could have been run over, taken, fell into the river. Shudder to think.
I've stayed in hotels several times where people have accidentally come into the room.Once someone was given the wrong swipe card.Another time as teenagers we had a separate room to our parents and someone came in during the night.Another time a man came into my sisters apartment.There was a security man on the front door who gave him access.Luckily he was just a drunk idiot and they weren't harmed.I'd bring a babysitter for peace of mind.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
I wouldn't do it, personally.
To be honest, I really can't understand how this is even legal? I mean really, you make a choice when having children, they don't ask to be born, you must know things are going to change when you have them? I just can't understand how having a few drinks or having a meal, is worth risking you children's safety.
Either take a baby sitter, or take the kids with you.
Yes I would totally judge any one how did this, and I think it's one of the most selfish things a parent can do, and I have seen so many struggle to even have DC, that when I hear of people that would do take this risk, that is purely for selfish reasons, I just feel sad.
My DC were young long before the MM case,
It never entered my head to leave them alone while on holiday, a night out is not more important than my DC.
Sometimes XH would stay on in the bar, and I went back to the room/caravan with the DC, but leaving them alone was never an option.
No one has to justify why they wouldn't do this, it's just common sense and decent parenting that your kids come first.
No I wouldn't do this. The only exception I can think of is if they were an age where they definitely couldn't escape from their cot and if I were staying in a proper 'home from home' B&B where it's literally the same size as your house and the 'staff' are the owners and no one else(absolutely no more than 4/5 bedrooms), then I can't see how it is any different from home. I personally probably still wouldn't leave DS though.
I wouldn't do it.
Apparently my in-laws used to leave their 4 year old in charge of 2 younger ones though and go for dinner in the restaurant with no monitor!
I didn't do it and never would. My kids were all born in the 1990's, so like you golden, not a case of 'hysteria' because of the MM events here, but instead a case of just feeling of not wanting to take the risk for something so non essential as a few drinks.
Kids are little for such a short while. It's a privilage to raise a child. 3/4 years of your life curtailing evening social activities a bit in the name of keeping your child secure and happy is no big sacrifice surely? I survived it OK.
My ds was a teenager when Madeleine McCann disappeared so obviously it didn't influence what we did when he was little. I had never considered leaving him alone in a hotel bedroom when he was asleep. One of us would always stay in the room. I'm not sure whether I was most concerned about him waking or wandering or strangers or whatever, but it would never occur to me to do anything except stay with him. In your own home you remained in the house and in a hotel or B & B you remained in the room. It's part of what you do when you're a parent IMO.
When my ds was 8, someone booked us 2 twin rooms in a B & B instead of a family room and they assumed that our ds would sleep in one room and we'd sleep in the other. We considered it but decided he might wake and not know how to find the toilet as it wasn't in the room or might get lost getting back from the toilet or might call us and we wouldn't hear him and we couldn't leave the bedroom doors open due to strangers staying. So I slept in the room with him and his dad in the other room.
Sorry that last sentence isn't clear. I slept in the room with our ds. His dad slept in the other room. So we didn't let ds sleep in a room on his own in a B & B.
I grew up in a very large family house but this is totally different from even a small hotel. my parents knew who was in the house and we knew where we were, etc. in a hotel you have no idea who else might have a key and what else might be going on in the building
this is why since having DS we no longer stay in hotels, and do self catering instead. we have found some lovely cottages where you can buy in really nice home made meals from the farm house. or we do self catering in a big house as part of a big family group / group of friends so we can still socialise in the evenings.
Wouldn't bother me at all if it was close enough. Really wouldn't consider that a random weirdo would molest them. It just wouldn't happen. It particularly wouldn't happen if you had a baby monitor and could hear everything.
I wouldn't do it.
Nothing to do with perceived paedo paranoia. It's more to do with things like what if they fall off the bed? or fall over on the hard bathroom floor? or wake up scared thinking they've been abandoned? or pull on the kettle lead? or hurt themselves? Unlike their bedrooms at home, hotel rooms have not usually been babyproofed.
I couldn't enjoy a meal or a drink knowing that.
Face it, when you have kids, there are a few short years where they come before your need for a meal or a drink in a hotel bar.
Those who are saying that the hotel room is closer than their bedroom at home......do you usually have 200 strangerd wandering around your home, some.of which have keys that allow them directly into the bedroom?
yanbu. It shouldnt be done.
If we can afford to stay in a hotel room, we pay the upgrade to a suite.
Really wouldn't consider that a random weirdo would molest them. It just wouldn't happen. It particularly wouldn't happen if you had a baby monitor and could hear everything.
It's not just about " a weirdo" it's about safety in general. And anyway, who says a baby monitor is a guarantee of safety?
When I was about 2, my parents left me in the hotel room while they went down to the hotel restaurant. I managed to flood the place in their absence
LFC - for goodness sake, random weirdos is not what its about. There are numerous reasons mentioned on here already why it is selfish and irresponsible to leave kids in hotel bedrooms. It is an unnecessary RISK - ok, so take that risk if you want, but don't say there is no risk.
and before folk start saying even a car ride or crossing the road is a risk, yes they are, but they are managed risks with the parents looking after the child, not leaving them to do it on their own and out of sight and earshot.
What if the baby monitor fails.
Actually 'random weirdo' is the main reason given so far.
If you have a baby monitor and can hear them breathing or turning over and you're as close as you would be at home then it's as good as it gets.
Whole different kettle of fish if its a different building, if you have no baby monitor, and there's no fire alarms.
Actually, I don't think anyone has said what all these dangers are. People have talked a lot about people you don't know walking around the hotel, some with keys. If the concern is not "random weirdos" what is it?
Run over. Taken. Fell in a river.
You'd hear them waking up on the monitor and you'd be there within seconds of them falling out of bed or falling on the bathroom floor- just as you would at home. And presumably you've had a quick scout round and locked anything potentially dangerous in the wardrobe?
It just doesn't feel like responsible parenting. It doesn't require a statistical analysis of what the risks are and how likely they are to occur. It just feels wrong, therefore I wouldn't do it.
DS would probably, statistically be ok to do a carefully calibrated for toddlers bungee jump. I still wouldn't be comfortable watching him hurl himself off a bridge.
Well. Nobody's forcing you to do it, obviously.
But not wanting to do it yourself, while understanding that your motives are irrational (nowt wrong with that- loads of the things we do as parents are irrational) is one thing. Saying that other people who do it are putting their children in danger is quite another.
I would do this IF the child was old enough and responsible enough to come and get me if there was a problem. So not babies, not toddlers and not even small children. About ten years old? I don't know, I only have a six year old and wouldn't dream of leaving her alone in a strange place. She'd be distraught if she woke up and nobody was there. Unlikely, but people do sleep worse in unfamiliar surrounding.
I'm surprised that the consensus is overwhelmingly against. I thought it would be more of an even split. - I think those of us who have left our babies in hotel rooms wouldn't mention it on this thread because of the flaming .
I have done it, even without a monitor - one of us checked every 20 minutes or so, it was fine.
We all make a 'risk assessment' about every aspect of our life - yes, there is a very, very small risk of a fire or 'random weirdo' but to me that risk is incredibly small.
Actually, not sure I would even leave a ten year old. I mean, fire is a small risk but if it did happen and I couldn't get to my child I would never forgive myself.
DS is 2 and does not sleep in arms or on laps or in buggies. He can climb out of a travel cot. This is why we've just come back from a holiday in a cottage. It was much more appropriate for our family than a hotel.
If we left him alone in a hotel room:
He'd likely be scared if he woke up.
If he wasn't scared, he'd
a) Climb something
b) Open the door and wander out
c) Switch on some appliances
d) Empty clothes all over the room
e) Switch on the taps
f) Find something inappropriate on the tv
g) Try to open the window
h) Break some decoration
This is clearly not an exhaustive list of dangers, but I'd be far more worried about DS damaging something or himself than I would be about a paedophile or child snatcher getting him.
Have done it - a week after a certain other 'case' - and would again dependent on nature of hotel. What is the actual risk statistically rather than the fear factor? If the risk of getting run over with a pushchair is higher are all of you going to stop crossing roads with your DC?
The risk of leaving your small child alone at home in a safe child-friendly room is probably pretty low. Would you do that?
And crossing roads is a ridiculous comparison. Nobody can live without crossing a road. Everybody can live without leaving their small children alone in a strange environment.
just some of the reasons given on this thread, other than random perverts molesting your DC, are as follows -
fire safety - being unable to access your child in the event of a fire or similar emergency - child being too young to make own escape
child wandering off/getting lost or injured coming to try and find you
kettles and other objects - trouser press, razor, medications, open window etc! that DC would not normally have in their safe bedrooms at home
them being scared when they wake up in a strange setting
them being scared by a thief coming into the room, or even a member of staff coming in with legitimate reason
them being scared eg by row in next door room, or rowdy drunks in corridor
the main point given though is just that it is selfish not to put your kids well-being above your own sense of being entitled to child free time to enjoy your evenings. If you want child free time - either don't have kids, or book them into grannys so you get a weekend alone with DH.
Maybe how you assess the risk depends on personal experience as well. DH was nearly abducted when he was 10 whilst out playing with his brother, so we are both v wary of leaving our kids anywhere. So no I wouldn't leave child in hotel room where wide variety of people have access. DH also drank from bottle of bleach when he was a kid resulting in tum being pumped in hospital. So would i leave my child on wn with potental safety hazards ? no. The risk is small but I'm not prepared to take it. If other people do, it's their kids and up to them
Ragwort - that's what I was intimating earlier
I too have done it without a baby monitor, like you checking regularly and knowing my own child (and how well he slept) and the risks in the room he was in.
He would have had to be a very precocious 2 year old to wake up (which he never did), get out of the travel cot (which he never did) and learn to unlock the door (which he never did) before he came across any other risks....
And when he was older and we were letting him go up to his room on his own to bed, the hotel we go to has one entrance and we having dinner on the patio area outside it (through which all the guests have to go to get into the hotel), so I wasn't bothered about the idea of "random weirdos".
He's 12 now, but even if I were able to have another child (too old now), I'd not change that particular aspect of bringing up a child.
But everyone who knows me knows what a bad and uncaring parent I am
One of my earliest memories is waking up at night because my newborn baby brother was screaming. I didn't know where my parents were and I had no idea what to do. I was terrified. I was 5, my brothers were 3 and a couple of weeks old and my parents had thought it was OK to leave us.
We did it with dd1 at a family wedding about 7yrs ago, pre Madelaine McCann. It actually didn't occur to me not to. It frightens me now, looking back, how blasé we were about it.
I wouldn't do it now.
The fire risk is the scariest. It's all very well saying you'd go back to the room but the reality is in that case you'd probably both be overcome by the smoke before you ever get near the bedroom.
That reminds: one of my earliest memories is standing with my brother (aged 3.5 and 2 respectively) on the stairs crying 'cos mum and dad had popped out to neighbours and there was no-one in the house and mum and dad arriving home.
Obviously didn't scar me though!
Competitive negligence. A new low.
Interesting debate and very relevant to me. We're going to a family wedding in October and ds will be 10 months. Was debating with hubbie what to do for the evening reception. We discussed leaving him in the travel cot with the monitor on. No chance of him getting out, hurting himself at that age but I was worried about loosing signal. We ve not decided what to do.
of course personal experience does come into it too -
my judgement is affected by the death of my 3rd baby, the loss of 4 cousins in a housefire, being in a B&B when the fire alarm sounded at 6am, a local school burning to the ground in a very short space of time, a neighbours TV catching fire in the middle of the night, a friends child choking to death doing his own breakfast while they had a lie in, another local child accidentally strangling themselves, several drownings and numerous other personal/local/national tragedies
for these and other reasons I am still very cautious about not leaving my children
cleowen we had a similar situation when DS was about the same age. What we did was plan things so that nearly all the family took a turn at spending half an hour in the room with him over the evening. It worked well and meant nobody missed out on the fun but that DS was safe and had someone nearby if he work.
cleo - DD stayed up till 11pm at a wedding reception with us when she was just 6 months - if your baby would be too crabby/upset by the change of routine, surely family members would do shifts for you - say 20 mins each - so you and dp still get to enjoy some free time without worrying?
Unless she's 2 doors down, she's unreasonable.
Hotel doors are not that difficult to open.
Hell, my front door with security features was not that difficult to open by the locksmith with plastic card.
Plus fire risk.
Surely the hotel should be able to arrange a baby sitter for a couple of hours.
I might do it if the place was very small. I'd take our video monitor so we could watch to make sure she was OK, just as we do at home. We don't drink alcohol so hardly getting pissed in the bar. Just might want an hour reading in the lounge before bed rather than sitting in silence in a dark room from 7pm.
We are going away in a couple of weeks. Its our first holiday with dd and I hadn't even thought about what we would do in the evenings. Not sure why it hadn't crossed my mind at all.
How many feet or metres must you be near to your baby or small child - and how far is that limit or put another way what distance is unsafe?
The fire risks and getting back to the room against a tide of evacuees has already been explained.
A child could fall out of bed, become disoriented in the strange room.
Leave the room (easily done).
Ppl underestimate the time it takes to get to an hotel room.
The hotel is open to strangers who might want to enter your room for any number of reasons.
I also dislike the suggestion that parents who might dare to worry about "random weirdos" molesting or taking their children are irrational and hysterical. It does happen. Rarely, but it does happen.
Risk analysis is made based not only on the likelihood of an event but also the degree of harm in the event of the risk occurring. I don't think a meal in the hotel restaurant or drink in a bar is worth it personally, but obviously we're all different.
I grew up in the era of "baby listening services" in hotels.
Just because ppl used them doesn't mean that it's ok now.
There were also no seatbelt laws (babies travelled in cars on mum's lap in the front seat or in a carrycot on the back seat) and very lax drnk - driving laws at that time. Should we go back to that?
No thanks. Not for me.
Each to their own though.
There's more to it than distance though, isn't there? Or was that your point?
anyone else remember Butlins and the lovely people with torches who would do "rounds" on the camp to check on the children.. of course whilst the parents were watching the shows
We did it a lot.
It was pre-'famous cases'. I don't know whether I would have done it after that. Probably, in some circumstances.
I wouldn't judge anyone else who did it curlew
I might even envy their relaxed parenting style
I just don't feel comfortable doing it myself, rational or not
I have once left DS asleep to take his babysitter home. That took about 10 min round trip.
He was 6 or 7 and I had told him beforehand that if he woke up and I wasn't in, that I had just popped out for a few minutes, left the phone by him to ring me and left the front door unlocked. And the flat has a fire alarm.
I wouldn't have done it if he was younger.
And once a baby or toddler are asleep you can have a light on in the room. At least a reading light, or the tv on.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
I've done it in Esprit hotels, they're a family ski company a bit like Mark Warner.
The hotels are fairly small and exclusively for the use of other Esprit customers. Kids aren't allowed for adult dinner so you have no choice but to leave them in the room if you holiday with them. We always used a baby monitor and locked the door, never had any problems.
Since Madeleine Mcgann they now have a member of staff on every corridor.
At one of their large (4story) hotels the fire alarm did go off during dinner. It was the week before we were there so I didn't see it myself but a member of staff told me they told all the parents to evacuate and that the corridor staff would evacuate all the kids (30 rooms per floor maybe so I dunno how two staff could evacuate potentially 60 kids). Apparently all the parents ignored staff telling them not to go and get their kids and there was a stampede of parents up the stairs!
I've left the DCs in a room with a baby monitor while staying in a big 8 bedroom holiday rental with mates. I might consider doing the same in a similar sized family hotel/B&B, if I had a baby monitor that was working well enough to hear a ticking clock in the room.
The random kidnapper/fire risk is real but tiny. I might equally look askance at people who drive for hundreds of miles on dangerous (ie not British) roads just because they fancy some sunshine.
dangerous (ie not British) roads
So no accidents on British roads?
Each to their own. I wouldn't do it-would struggle to relax. Friends have. As people said lots of variables might
make it more or less safe.
But I do do wonder on the legal point. If you left a child at home alone at two - say to have a drink next door and you had monitor etc I suspect a charge of neglect possible - unlikely if nothing went wrong; quite likely if there is accident.
What are chances of neglect charge if child left in hotel room?
I don't think there is a safe or unsafe distance, I used to leave mine upstairs to sleep and go out int he garden -this was at my parents house and without a baby monitor I wouldn't have known whether they were asleep or awake and yes it was the size of a small hotel the house next door had been split into 4, three bedroomed flats. I wouldn't leave the same building as my dc were in asleep for me that would be to far away, for others though popping next door would be ok and that is fine.
i dont' think it is the same as seat belt laws either - many many more small people were killed due to not wearing a seat belt, I can not think of more than half a dozen abductions leading to a dreadful end in the last 6 years. Drunk drivers have also killed far far more children and IMO it is not the same as using a monitor in a hotel room.
i have stayed in hotel rooms where we have slept on the ground floor three bedrooms from the bar - I don't see it as a problem to go and sit and have a drink and have done.
British roads are not guaranteed to be accident free, but are pretty much the safest in the world bar Sweden and a couple of places with 10 mile an hour speed limits. Once you venture onto the roads of Continental Europe (let alone anywhere further afield) then you are taking a significant additional risk with your DCs lives just because it might rain in Norfolk.
I don't know any of my friends or relatives who would leave a 6 year old alone in the house.Could the babysitter not have stayed the night if you were forced into that position.Completely agree with paradisechick.
thanks guys for the suggestions. Not sure family members would be up for it as my sisters both have their own 2dc's who are very close together in age to worry about, my aunt and uncle's daughter is the one getting married so don't feel I could ask them. My cousin (sister of bride) is more likely to help with bride's ds than mine and again wouldn't be fair to my sisters. My mum probably wouldn't as then she would then need to do the same for her other 4 grandchildren to be fair and then would miss quite alot of the wedding.
I think I will probably put him in his sleepsack and try and keep him with us as long as possible, maybe trying to put him in his pram to go to sleep, and then just try and pop him in a corner near us so we can hear and see him, but might be too noisy for him. Or keep him up as late as we can and then when he goes to bed take it in turns with dh to supervise him or just go to bed when he does.
My sister has a ds2 who is 7 weeks older so it will be interesting to see what she is planning to do as she's a very cautious parent. Before anyone suggests, I don't want them in together as her ds wakes up several times in the night for bf's and mine sleeps through so I think he would just wake my ds up, plus would probably wake up trying to move him to another room once we went to bed.
Having experience of roads outside the UK, if you drive carefully they are not that dangerous.
They are dangerous mostly for the many drivers who dangerously overtake and go over the speed limit, or drive dangerous cars.
Tbh any weddings I've been at the couple have got a babysitter or shared childminding duties.Brother in law got married recently and I looked after dd for the day and then had an early night-was pregnant and had hg.Bit of a pain missing out on the fun though!
And for the people who cross the paths of the many dangerous drivers Lweji. Most people will indeed survive a taxi or hire car ride from Malaga airport - but it's not the same risk as a taxi from Heathrow.
The border between hovering parents and neglectful parents is not that easy to define.
We all end up taking risks, one way or another.
Each person is comfortable with different risks and less comfortable with others.
I have left kids in bed whilst going downstairs in family-home-sized B&B, but normally whilst on holiday, we just keep the kids up. Small ones can sleep in their buggy, larger ones join in with the meal, all go up to room at the same time.
As for wedding in hotels, I have always taken the baby in buggy approach, slightly older ones have been known to sleep on a pile of coats under a table, or stretched out ona row of chairs...that's if they're not still dancing with the rest. I accept I am a very laissez-fairs parent...
LadyI, the risk of meeting a dangerous driver exists, as it does in the UK, but it is not that high. I was talking of us driving ourselves, not being driven. You can rent a car in Malaga.
So, you never leave the house?
I remember, Cornishpasty2. They'd write the chalet number up on the board. Some of them were up for a very long time
"I also dislike the suggestion that parents who might dare to worry about "random weirdos" molesting or taking their children are irrational and hysterical. It does happen. Rarely, but it does happen."
Name me one instance where anything like that has happened from a locked hotel room with locks windows and the parents downstairs in the same building listening on a baby monitor.
You may have missed my point Lweji
We stayed in a hotel in Disneyland Paris with a 2 year old DD1 a couple of years ago.
We put her down in the travel cot, sat outside until she was asleep then went back inside to read until we were tired.
While we were reading, our door clicked & someone tried to open it. We had bolted it from the inside. They kept rattling the door & DH finally went & opened it.
It was 3 chambermaids who when we asked them why they were trying to get into our room at 9.30pm said they were wanting us to tip them. We didn't & after that experience would not leave my DC in a Hotel room unless the door was always visible.
Lady I doubted your statement about roads in Uk and accidents so went and found this I was surprised
A roads though was a total shock - how bizarre
Dh and I do this once a month for our 'date night'. We gi to a local restaurant with rooms. 10 mo ds is in his travel cot in the room. We have a lovely meal downstairs, monitor on table, pressure mat on, nothing can go wrong. Can't believe some people would consider us bad parents for doing this.
The spin they've put on some of those numbers is questionable Ivy, (because of their particular bias) and they've chosen the most flattering version of the stats, but yes the picture is broadly correct.
I'm not actually saying that nobody should ever get a taxi in Portugal, but it is my go-to example when confronted with the rhetoric of infinite risk avoidance. (As opposed to "I just don't fancy it myself" or "I've thought about it and I think this particular risk outweighs the benefit") Nobody ever says "Why are you selfishly putting your DC at risk by driving to France rather than going to Norfolk?"
No way. Ever. How do you know your child is safe in unfamiliar surroundings? The thought of it fills me with dread.
I would never do this but know plenty of people who do.
I personally would just not be able to relax so what's the point?
I am naturally very anxious and particularly anxious concerning my DD, I also think that once you have children you should not carry on as if you don't have them and that means you stay in the room with them if you all have to be in a hotel together.
Ceramicunicorn I can see the more you do this and do it without incident the safer you think it is. You are being naive, at best.
Your baby is only 10m old? And you feel the need to do this on a monthly basis. Why? Does your need to have a meal with your husband trump your baby's basic needs? Why nit save the cash and get a babysitter and go out and relax properly?
Curlew why do I need to name a time when that has happened? The point is that bad things can happen even when we least expect it.
In an hotel a locked door is not really "locked" for me when any number of ppl have access to the key.
Property is stolen from hotels all the time, even from locked rooms. I don't want my child in that room.
I'm not sure that it's your intention but your posts appear quite aggressive.
I have made my point and expressed my view on the op's question. It obviously differs from yours. I'm ok with that.
Ok. I did it once. Friends small pub/bnb. We were only downstairs and figured if dd woke up she'd be ok older ds was on the room too. Had monitor in bar but didn't hear dd wake up and get out of room. Another guest found her in the corridor crying and very scared. I never did it again and now I can't believe I was so blasé.
And others have made the reasonable point about not being able to relax. I concur. How enjoyable is a meal or drink if I'm staring at the monitor all the time. I might as well sit in the hotel room.
DH and I could sit in the bath together and raid the peanuts from the minibar.
Why do some of you even have children?
If adult time is so precious that you would happily consider putting your child at even a minute risk of harm then why give it up in the first place?
Fine, it's your kids, do with them as you will. Doubt any of you would be able to live with yourselves if anything actually happened.
No-one thinks it will happen to them.
Emily, you stated categorically that it has happened. "It does happen. Rarely, but it does happen."
That's why I asked you for a case where it had.
Yes. "it" being the taking or molestation of children by "random weirdos".
so you get a couple of hotel rooms with interconnecting doors, do you sleep in your rom or the dc rooms?
If you want to have rooms service then order room service and have the meal brought up to you.
If you are comfortable with going to the bar and having a drink then do so.
but don't try to scare monger people to do what you do as you think it is the only way to do things - it isn't the only way or the best way
I think all the talk of strangers and unforseen dangers are red herrings. Bottom line is it is selfish to leave a small child alone in unfamiliar surroundings. Have date night at home so that if your child wakes up he/she sees their familiar things and you can be with them amost immediately to comfort them. Surely that's what being a parent is all about.
Even if you trust the fact that you can see them with the monitor as a safeguard you can't guarantee reception throughout the hotel (we have one family house that has no reception on the monitor when in the kitchen but does in the other rooms due to the thickness of the walls).
When does the monitor get switched on? As you leave the room?
What if the child leaves the room? You can't see them.
I may be over protective but the concerns are really not that outlandish.
We are currently staying in a hotel for a friend's wedding. Forgot to bring the baby monitor. DS (2 years) is sleeping safe and sound in our hotel room (ground floor, I should add), and we go and check on him every half hour throughout the evening. This is the third day we're doing this. It has worked brilliantly.
The only reason I won't be doing it again is that he will outgrow the travel cot very soon.
I don't think anyone's scaremongering.
The op is asking if ppl would leave their dc in hotel room while they were in the bar.
Some ppl are saying "no" and giving an explanation for that.
Some ppl are young they would be ok with it and explaining likewise.
I think I agree vestandknickers
In fact of baby is such a good consistent sleeper that you are comfortable leaving it alone then surely you're able to get a meal at home without being disturbed?
Vestandknickers has it spot on
lookingforwardtomarch is scaremongering plain and simple, how would you live with yourself comment is a classic
Sorry, not young I meant saying
Not ever. It just isn't worth the risk. If anything happened the only person i would blame is myself. You don't leave valuables out so why children. There are too many things that could go wrong. Not everybody out there is a weirdo, but they aren't labelled. If there was a fire what would happen then? If child got out of bed and hurt themselves, the thought scares me. I would never be able to relax. Plus if anything did happen i don't think the authorities would be happy
No-one thinks it will happen to them
I do find once stuff (any traumatic stuff) happens to people, they become more cautious about alot of things that they previously wouldn't have worried about. e.g. sudden very early death of family member caused me to realise how fragile life actually is and that shitty things do happen.
My less cautious friends are those who haven't yet experienced loss and therefore have a more carefree attitude towards risk. Not saying that it's wrong, but different.
Depends on so many things - the size of the hotel, the type of monitoring arrangements, the personality/mobility of your child, your own temperament and attitude (if you couldn't relax or enjoy yourself away from child, seems pretty pointless to even try), the distance you are going, the amount of time you will be away, etc, etc.
I have done it. Enjoyed a nice meal with a friend, we were gone for two hours. Baby slept whole time in cot. Had hotel listening service.
I analysed the risks and benefits and found them all acceptable to me.
If you don't feel comfortable, don't do it. But a blanket 'it is simply wrong' is not something I agree with.
Paradisechick 's attidude is exactly why most people who have assessed the risk that it is
negligible acceptable don't post on these threads - because they get judged aggressively.
I did choose to drink occasionally while I was pregnant (but not during weeks 6-10), I stopped eating unpasteurised cheeses but did eat foie gras once while I was pregnant, on the other hand I never got drunk when I was in charge of ds, I breast fed him till he was 13 months old, never gave him formula, we chose not to use stair gates, instead teaching him how to go up and down stairs safely (and he never fell; in fact the only child I know of who ever had an accident on stairs was one whose parents
nearly always had stair gates in use), we taught him to cross roads safely from the age of 2 (yes, in company), so I was comfortable letting him walk to school on his own from age 7 and cycling to school on his own from age 9 and from school age 10 (differing risks according to the direction), didn't let him stop using a car seat till he was 150cm tall, much to his disgust, conversely, did use a taxi occasionally when overseas when we were not able to use a car seat, drove cars in South Africa where other people would consider that there was a risk of car-jacking (but we always hired a Japanese car rather than a BMW), went walking in Stellenbosch when other tourists would tell us to be scared, let ds walk to a football ground the other side of the village in Greece we were staying in on his own, age 10 , let ds, now aged 12, cycle around Glasgow (as long as we know roughly where he is) as he goes out for training rides .....
Some of these "risks" other people would consider acceptable, other's not. We all have our own judgement of perceived risk.
The one time ds was at risk was when he was 17 months old and had just learnt to walk. He managed to get himself out of the house via the (sort of) cat flap and walked (having only just learnt to walk) to the house next door at 7 am, where dh finally found him. Totally my fault, as I had left the house at 6am and not closed the storm doors behind me in the pouring rain. Did I feel guilty? Yes. Did I let it make me paranoid about other risks? No.
My mother died as a result of a cycling accident where she fell and hit her head, even though she was wearing a helmet. Despite an initial recovery over 2 years, she then declined and it took another 3 years for her to die. It was horrible.
Despite that, I have not been out off cycling - and in fact, ds is now obsessed with it. Ironically, I'd rather he played rugby (in which he is also showing talent) as I think it would be safer! But I'll support him, whichever sport he chooses.
I'm not going to constrain my life - or his - by worrying about "what if's".
Pretty none of those scenarios you mentioned a are tangible with expecting an infant to look after itself.
No one is expecting an infant to look after itself - the initial scenario mentioned was leaving a baby/toddler in a room with a monitor - therefore the parent would be able to check with the monitor if the infant woke up and could then return to the room - for many people the 'risk assessment' is that the child could easily be reached quickly, yes, there is the rare chance that the room might burn down or a 'wierdo' enters or the monitor doesn't work, but these are not 'expecting an infant to look after itself'.
I am amazed that some of you even leave your child to sleep in its own room alone at home, you must be so worried about all the 'risks'.
Which begs the question, if you are relying on looking at a monitor looking at your sleeping child whilst having a relaxing meal... well what's the point?
FWIW I don't have a monitor at home.
But I do have a small house. The first time my son comes out his cot he was 18m old. He did it with ninja like silence. God knows how long he'd been out his cot playing in his room right above my head when we found him happy as Larry at 10pm.
Assuming most people are talking about monkeys for sound only... well what use would that have been?
He was fine as he was in his own room. An unfamiliar room? J dread to think.
I would judge that the risks are probably a little bit higher in a hotel:
At home I don't leave my house keys hanging in a public space which is something left unmonitored when reception staff are called away.
At home nobody else has a master key which they might leave unattended in a public space.
At home I myself can check that fire alarms are functioning, all escape routes clear and easily opened etc.
In the event of a fire, at home I would have a free route up the stairs and not be competing with terrified strangers trying to get down the same stairs.
would & have happily done it, some hotels also offer a baby listening service in reception.
But then I also was one of those toddlers/children left in the chalet in pontins in the 70's with nothing more than someone cycling around the camp listening for a child crying & the chalet number to be flashed up on the screen in the Ballroom.
No - I'm not expecting a child to "look after itself" - I'm expecting him to sleep - the way he does every night and has done since he was two weeks old . If I had had a child who woke up during the night or who constantly needed attention, I might then have made a different judgement.
Kidnap her child. No parent should be drinking in a bar when they are parents. EVER. Or hire a hitman to take out this so-called mum. You are much better than she is.
Do people not let their children sleep in pushchairs anymore?
Obviously older children would be different but we've just been in holiday and our DS (2yo) slept in the pushchair every evening until we got back to our room.
No way. I was surprised when, last year, we stayed at a country hotel that offered a listening service. What's more, we were in outbuildings and separated from the main building by about 150-200 yards.
throughgrittedteeth my 22-month-old son won't sleep anywhere but his cot (even night flights don't send him to sleep).
We either take my parents with us on holiday, and have them babysit while we go out as a couple, or we eat out early as a family.
I haven't done it nor would I.
But it does depend on many factors whether it is wrong or not.
To me though its not home and whilst you can be in the bar which is really close to your childs room, there are probably a lot more people than at home who can also be close to your childs room.
you would never forgive yourself.....
Prettybird- of course it's a case of weighing up risks in any situation. But there's a vast difference between accepting an element of risk for the sake of advancing independence and life experience for your child. Being able to confidently navigate stairs. walk to the shops on their own and cycle round town ( at appropriate ages) are important skills for the child. And I'm the first person to cringe when I see kids so wrapped up in cotton wool that they Display learned helplessness
But what benefit to the child is there in being left alone in a hotel room? It's not advancing learning or fostering independence. It's a totally unecessary course of action . The only possible benefit (?) is the parents get to sit in a hotel bar with a baby monitor... What a bizarre idea of an evening out
I wonder if, whilst you were away at the hotel, you won the lottery and had to keep the winning ticket safe - would you allow that to stay in your hotel room whilst you went out. No, you'd probably keep it with you because it was so valuable and lucky.
But your DC, yes, leave them.
An overly simplistic analogy I grant.
Oh and before anyone replies to my last post with 'well what's wrong with benefiting the parents?' - there's absolutely nothing wrong with parents protecting their own adult time ; indeed, I would say that part of being a good parent is not losing sight of your own needs. I'm the mum who spent a week madly expressing milk for our month old first baby so we could go to a long awaited gig we'd bought tickets for a year before. But we did it with proper babysitting arrangements.
Having time as a couple, and ensuring your children are properly supervised are not mutually exclusive you know. It just takes a bit more effort to set things up- oh and money to pay for a babysitter, which is, oddly, the stumbling block for many people, who think nothing of spending on a bottle of wine in a bar, or on a night out, but resent the idea of a few extra quid to pay someone to supervise their precious child. Truly bizarre.
No way I could do this just for pure fact it wouldn't feel right. We've been away countless times with DD now 2 & depending in where we stay we have different plans. Family holiday in France - private villa - one if us would stay behind. Hotel room in Dublin - DD in corner with lights off, DH & I reading/watched TV with lamp on. Family wedding - DD slept in buggy with ear defenders. I don't drink so its not really a sacrifice but even if it was we chose to have her. I'd hate for her to wake & feel scared & alone.
I wouldn't pop over to the corner shop while DD was asleep in her cot so why would I leave her in a hotel room? Christ, if I have to get something out the garage (not attached to house) i won't even do it while shes napping. Maybe I'm PFB but I hate to think of my child alone.
Only last weekend out next door neighbour had a BBQ/party in the evening. The monitor would work easily in their garden but my DH stayed at home while I popped over for an hour.
A few months before MM hit the headlines, we were at a wedding in a small country hotel. My mum's wedding. We had a room with our 3 DC, then aged 6, 4 and baby. I planned on leaving reception at about 8-9pm and staying in room with DC but mother kicked up quite a fuss and we ended up spending the evening dashing back and forth from 9pm -11pm when I couldn't stand it any more.
It was -me in room with sleeping DC for 10 mins, leaving room (ground floor), crossing reception and into dining room, pretending to socialize merrily for 10 mins, then sending DH off to room... It was exhausting and no fun at all. I felt awful leaving kids, guilty leaving party, mean sending DH off...
Never again. This year on holiday, DS (now 13) had a strop and wanted to stay at the hotel while we went out for dinner and I wouldn't let him!
It's all about your own conscious I think. If it doesn't sit well with you, just don't do it. If you are able to relax, guilt-free then your call...
You wouldn't let your 13 year old stay alone in a hotel room .
I remember in early 80s when I was 9 my parents left me & my sister aged 7 in an Amsterdam hotel room while they went out. They went after we were asleep. Completely insane, they are non drinkers very sensible normally. We woke up, were terrified, managed to get out of the room to look for them, locked ourselves out, & ended up being put back in room by hotel staff. Dreadful experience for us.
Would not leave children in a room on their own in a hotel!
I recently left my 6mo asleep and went and ate in the hotel restaurant downstairs with the monitor on. I would do this again. I wouldn't leave a toddler who could get out unless I was in a tiny tiny hotel and I wouldn't leave a baby in a big hotel.
Am shocked most people wouldn't leave babies. I agree with the pp who talked about a 3 story house. We live in a weird tall thin place and the baby is 4 floors up at home and at the hotel restaurant we were much closer.
We always ask to be close to the restaurant.
Can we please clarify that people are not talking about leaving babies and going on the piss, just a nice meal.
Also, The mm case did periodic checks, think monitoring and video monitoring is safer.
A 13 year old!
And there is a bit of a difference between leaving a sleeping baby to go downstairs with a baby monitor and leaving 7 and 9 year olds without telling them to hit the nightspots of Amsterdam!
I have done this for a very quick meal in family-run hotels, where we know we are only a few flights of stairs away. Including in the same resort in Portugal, 16 years ago. We are not big drinkers and had a monitor and left the table every fifteen minutes.
I can imagine circumstances where it would be perfectly safe to leave a baby or dc. I just wouldn't enjoy whatever I'd left them to do, because I'd want to keep checking that they were OK, so what would be the point, really!
I think in your own home, however large and many floored, is different because you control that environment totally, whereas in a hotel, you don't.
'shocked that people don't do it'?This was the first time I have ever heard of people doing this.Its so selfish.Why would you not get a babysitter or stay at home or have your meal early?Just makes no sense.
In all honesty I can't believe people still do this. Its like smoking in cars , I thought everyone was more clued up these days.
Imo its very irresponsible parenting.
"Imo its very irresponsible parenting."
If it doesn't feel right to you don't do it. But why is it irresponsible??????
Is one of the reasons people get so indignant about this is because it is the thought of the parents having a drink or meal whilst their child is alone? If you were doing something more 'worthy' would you still be so uptight about it?
My DS was the sort of baby/toddler who slept through and never, ever woke up - it was entirely the norm for him to have a two hour nap every single day after lunch until he was 3. We used to have elderly neighbours who often needed a hand so I would pop over and help them whilst DS slept - yes, leaving him totally alone in the next door house. I made a judgement, we lived in a very rural, low crime area - no doubt I would still get flamed for leaving him?
I don't think it's ever right to leave your child alone regardless of whether the activity is 'worthy' or not.
Oh here we go again, the pearl-clutching brigade at their finest on yet another 'how bad are those parents?' thread.
See how strong the reactions are, using the words 'idiot' and 'moronic' and 'selfish'.
That 'famous' case - why not say it? Madeleine McCann. How long ago was that? 8 years? And that is the only case you can remember which wasn't even in the UK. Can anyone else remember a recent case of anything happening to a child left in a hotel room?
Yet I can tell you plenty of stories of abuse that has happened with the babysitter.
Statistically your child is more likely to be abused by their babysitter than abducted or otherwise harmed in a hotel room. That is a solid fact.
Most hotels are safer than your homes. They have excellent fire alarms and sprinklers and whoever said that they wouldn't let you go back into your room to collect a child is talking about of their arse. Of course they bloody would! But health and safety is such a priority in hotels that fires are rare. Very rare. Look up the statistics and you will see that house fires are still in their thousands whereas hotel fires?
So if we are talking about fires, you are safer in a reputable hotel chain than in your own home.
Abduction, again statistically speaking your child is safer without a babysitter than with one.
Many hotels offer babysitting services which is just the same as having a baby alarm in your room. Would they offer that service if they felt it was irresponsible? No they wouldn't as they know that if the shit hit the fan they would have their arse sued off. So there's another reason why your child is safe in a hotel - the hotel would have had to do a complete risk assessment and be insured in order to offer a babysitting service.
Then there are the sophistication of baby alarms. Most alarms now are very sensitive so you can hear every breath your child takes and even see their breathing light up the monitor. If you want to, you can even watch your child via a little monitor.
I really do not see what is so selfish about two responsible parents, assessing the risks and spending a little quality time together whilst ensuring that their children are as safe as if they were at home. Which they are.
These knee-jerk reactions really are very very dull.
I would have thought it obvious, anything can happen. Its an unnecessary risk and for what a quick meal? senseless.
I think you're right. You're not "sacrificing " enough.....
Oh, and it's magical thinking too. I can't actually protect my child from the real risks in the world- but that's too scary to think about. So I will protect them from the imaginary risks and that'll make me feel better......
I would have thought it obvious, anything can happen. Its an unnecessary risk and for what a quick meal? senseless."
Oh, I had forgotten about that scary "anything". Absolutely. Boa constrictor. Escaped tiger. Zombie.
Curlew lol at imaginary risks.
I was a nurse in A & E in the 90's and then jumped ship retrained and worked in local government law, including spells in child protection. I think I have more insight than most at what can happen. There are reasons there are safes in hotel rooms.
I guess sometimes ignorance is bliss.
Hamilton75 so how many children did you see who had come to some harm in hotel rooms?
Compared to those who had been abused by babysitters?
Ah. Could you share some of your experiences of babies brought to a and e after being left sleeping in a locked hotel room while their parents are downstairs with a baby monitor? At last- somebody who can actually tell me what "anything" is!
ds just slept in his buggy
no i would not do it, i am on holiday with ds so it is not quite the same i accept that but it has never stopped me doing things it is just done differently
I have done it just the once when I was throwing a party for my dp at our local pub. The kids stayed up late and then I put them to bed in a room at the pub where I was also staying the night of course. Myself and dp did "every 10 minutes" checks. I wasn't drinking and he drank later at the after party at our house with his mates.
The checking only lasted an hour or so as I was so knackered I went up to join them. (Always my intention as I am such a lightweight with late nights). The children were 2 and 5 at the time.
I felt it was ok as the pub is staffed by friends, full of local people known to me in the main, and I was confident I could get up the stairs in a flash. The staff put the monitor on the bar for me too which I was listening to 90 % of the time. I did find it a bit stressful, and couldn't relax much, and wouldn't bother again ie I wouldn't leave them at all.
I wouldn't do it in a place I was unfamiliar with. It wouldn't feel comfortable or right to me. But I have to say, I would not condemn any parent who left their child having assessed the risks and taken appropriate precautions.
THERhubarb - the voice of reason (not for the first time ).
I would not condemn any parent who left their child having assessed the risks and taken appropriate precautions.
I also wouldn't do it personally, because I just don't seem to be of a character that is particularly relaxed when I can't be there in person. But I agree with Pasty on this. ^^
As regards the babysitter situation -I agree as my mum was abused by a close family friend.I am lucky enough to have a lot of relatives who are childcare professionals and would trust them completely.Wouldn't leave the children with anyone but them.We usually stay in family hotels when we have gone away and have our meal early.I don't feel hard done by that myself and my partner can't have a meal alone.We do this at home during the week when the girls are in bed.Thats just life when you have young kids isn't it.In a couple of years things will be different.
I don't know anyone who has had a child molested at a hotel. I do, however, know several people that have had their stuff robbed from their room while they were out of it. They didn't have children, but if they had, they would have terrified!
I wouldn't do it. I have stayed in small and large hotels, and even small ones tend to have a bar so it's not just people staying there.
I also have heard tales of this happening to friends when they were children, and waking up terrified in a strange place and no one there.
Also, all three of my sons have been able to get out of cots by age 1, so I wouldn't feel confident that if they woke up and weren't scared, that they hadn't trashed the room by the time I got back!
Right, so when you are in a hotel room with a baby monitor, say even a standard one which picks up every little sound and illuminates with their breathing - you would consider that too dangerous because someone might sneak in, make off with your child and you would never hear them?
I also know of people who have been burgled at home whilst they were all in bed, does mean that they now all sleep together in a padded cell?
I said it before and I'll say it again - do you honestly think that hotels would offer a babysitting service if the insurance company did not cover them?
As for waking up alone in a strange place - well how about when you wake up anywhere that isn't home? Do your parents always sleep in the same room as you? This is why we have baby monitors, so we can hear when they wake up.
JackieTheFart course you wouldn't hear that on a baby monitor would you?
Not wanting to flame a debate... But my personal opinion is it is not responsible parenting & I wouldn't do it...
I think it is, strictly speaking, probably as safe as having your child sleeping in their own bedroom at home.
However, I think your child would be pretty upset to unexpectedly wake in an unfamiliar environment and not have a parent immediately on hand. I suspect it would probably take longer that you'd like to get back to your child to comfort him/her.
I don't think it's a huge deal one way or another. Madeline McCan was a freak occurrence.
Curlew, you didn't respnd to my earlier post asking why, when there's no hysteria going on, are you always so keen to paint people as hysterical and deny all risks?
For the millionth time, it's not about the random weirdo lurking, it's about not abandoning your child to just to get a meal in peace.
It's that simple.
2 proven cases of abuse (different venues), one a staff member. Involvement in other suspected cases not proven beyond reasonable doubt.
From a casualty perspective, countless incidents (including some where parents said they were still in the room). Mostly blind/window related
next to cot/others toppling objects. A couple of deaths unfortunately and several cases of brain damage.
I haven't been involved with any cases of babysitter abuse in comparison but many with family involvement. From the abuse perspective yes I agree the risk is greater from family involvement however this does not negate the fact that there is a risk from leaving a child alone sleeping in a hotel room.
THERubharb see my earlier post about my stealth ninja 18m old who got out his cot at 18 months old in the room right above where we were sitting and made not a single sound!
I wouldn't do it.
Not because I have any thought for a minute that someone would get into the room and snatch her, but more because if she wakes up in strange places she gets a bit upset if we're not close.
To me the argument of a three storey house doesn't wash. We live in a large house - but if she wakes, she knows where she is and where mummy/daddy are likely to be.
And, if we go on holiday it is to spend time as a family so we do just that.
THERhubarb you are right, of course. I still wouldn't do it, personally. Even if we make a rational assessment of risks, people are still allowed to make their choices based on how they feel about something as well. Even if statistical analysis shows that feeling to be misplaced.
Perhaps the difference between me and the people you seem frustrated with is I wouldn't necessarily judge people who decided that they felt their child would be safe enough...?
Talking to an older generation, say in their 60s and 70s, it was pretty normal to leave kids in hotel rooms, chalets etc. Places like Butlins had a baby listening service.
Personally, I have never done it, never felt it was the right thing to do.
And how clearly can you hear a moniter when in a resturant with the general hubub and chat.
And again, I ask the question, how 'relaxing' is that meal going to be when you're straining to hear a baby moniter? Why bother?
Room service sounds much more appealing!
I would judge people who do it either
but why are some tetchy about others simply saying it is not something they would do
ParadiseChick with all due respect, being below your child's room is not the same as having a baby monitor in there. I cannot hear my child breathe when I'm downstairs but I can with a monitor. If I can hear them breathe then I can also hear other things, such as their regular breathing becoming irregular (some monitors have their breathing lit up and an alarm sounds if the breathing stops), them climing out of their cots, etc.
hamilton75 hotels are bound by health and safety rules to keep any blind cords tied up. Your home is not subject to such strict risk assessments and so a child is more likely to hang themselves on a blind cord in your home whilst you are downstairs watching TV than they are in a hotel room where you are monitoring their breathing.
As for it being irresponsible, there are many parenting practices I might deem irresponsible that other parents may do on a regular basis; such as allowing a young child to walk to school alone; allowing a young child regular access to the internet alone; etc.
Your child is more at danger by being left unattended with a computer than in a hotel room.
I might, I might not.
I don't think I'd feel comfortable doing it. You obviously think I'm irrational for thinking that. That's fine.
There are risks, and scoffing about those parents that would rather err on the over-cautious side is as rude as those saying it's moronic.
Fwiw, we haven't been in the situation before so it's all hypothetical anyway.
Straining to hear the monitor? You don't have to. Most of them are lit up and most have an alarm which sounds if the child stop breathing.
You don't have to hear anything, you just watch the breathing patterns go up and down.
I wonder how such a thread would go if I said that I both judged and condemned parents who let their primary school kids have mobile phones and access to the internet.
Some people have a skewed notion of what constitues a risk.
Absolutely no way I would ever dream of doing this. Why can't they just eat at a time when their 2 year old isn't sleeping and therefore can join them, or why can't the 2 year old crash out in a buggy beside them? All I can think about is all the things that could happen i.e. someone going into the room and taking the child, would happen in the blink of an eye and doesn't bear thinking about.
Jackie I do not think that anyone who chooses not to leave their child alone with a baby monitor is over protective. I have not said that and I never would say that. I would respect your choice.
What I object to are the insults which are aimed at posters who say they would.
I HAVE done this and I WOULD do this again. Yet I am very strict about the internet and never allowed my kids to have mobile phones until they were in secondary (with ds not yet). I perceive that to be a greater risk to the safety of children.
Which again begs the question - are you really going to hear all those minute sounds over a moniter whilst having a meal and even if you do, how much fun is your meal going to be whilst straining and listening out for these minute sounds during that meal?
DS (9) has access to the internet (wifi only) on his iPad that he bought himself with 2 years and 2 Christmases worth of money
He mostly watches Minecraft 'how to' videos. Oh, and plays Minegraft
See, we all have different standards of what we are comfortable with and what we are not.
So you sit looking and listening at the monitor for the whole duration of your meal? How relaxing.
I couldn't. It's not "pearl-clutching," it's being a loving mother.
I just asked DH and he also said no, but it was all based on paedo-hysteria. He reads the DM too much
As an ex hotel manager, I've dealt with more incidents than I'd like to remember. One involved the master lock defaulting, so each door could be opened by any card. One involved a guy getting over the unmanned reception counter during the night and taking a key. The key wa for a room occupied at the time by 2 children. The guy was a pissed up idiot looking for his own room. I've dealt with a full evacuation during the night - and nobody would be getting back into the building in that situation! There've been the many slips and trips etc
I wouldn't do it. I can control the environment at home, but in a hotel there are too many variables to consider.
It's simply not comparible with the risks assessed as children get older.
We're talking about leaving babies and toddlers alone to go out for a meal.
Oh yes we were insured, but that isn't a safeguard against accident!! You might have your home insured, but that doesn't mean you should forego fire safety, or not bother to lock your insured car!! Insurance is there to alleviate the pressure after a trauma - it isn't a safety net! Generally, risk assessments will cover the minimum activity to reduce risk - not eradicate it!
I was always amazed at how many parents handed their baby monitor to a member of my staff and asked them to let them know if there were any problems. I mean, I had no issue with my staff but for a stranger to trust them with the safety of their child was just insane!
I love my child.
The fact that I am also comfortable with leaving him in a hotel room in a place where I have assessed the likelihood of harm and judged it to be negligible is not mutually exclusive.
I am still a loving mother.
Tell you what, judge away.
In our case the first time dd was 6 months old. We went to Malta and tried taking her with us to eat. She was tired and cranky, most restaurants didn't open until late and so when we tried to have a meal at 7pm she would scream the place down so we didn't enjoy our food and spent the time alternating her between myself and dh whilst the other was able to quickly stuff a bit of food in.
So we put her down in our hotel room the third night and put the monitor on. She went to sleep at her usual time, peacefully and happy. Dh went downstairs to listen to the monitor just to check that he could hear it. During this time I crept about the room just grabbing a few things before heading out. He heard all of this.
We stayed in the hotel and had a lovely meal in the restaurant. Every half hour one of us would just double check our room. It was a much more relaxed experience.
We have done it with both a couple of times since.
I also spent 2 years living in France where their attitude is completely different. We would pick up our kids from school every day and I knew some of the mothers had young babies but they would arrive to pick up their kids without the babies. When I asked where they were, they would reply quite casually that they were at home asleep.
I would not go this far, but to these mothers that was perfectly normal and accepted.
I think that unless you are in that situation you cannot judge. As parents we all take a few risks every now and then but not without making sure that risk is an acceptable one. For me, the risk was acceptable because we could hear her breathing and could hear every sound when one of us went up there to check on her, including the door being opened, footsteps etc and that was us being really really quiet so as not to wake her.
But according to some posters this makes me an unfit mother and on one of these threads I have been told by a couple of posters that they would report me to social services. Yet here I am, calmly and rationally explaining why it's less of a risk to me whilst other posters clutch at their pearls and condemn all those parents who do so to the pits of eternal bad parenting.
I wonder who is the more reasonable?
ItsaFuckingVase why do hotels offer babysitting services then? And tbh the last thread I was on I was told to book a babysitter from an online service - is that not entrusting my child to a stranger?
And I'm sorry themaltesecat are you implying that I am not a loving mother?
Take a look at the disgusting comments on this thread, take a look at which side of the debate is doling out the, quite frankly, appauling accusations. I have come across this level of vitriol time and again and yet some of these posters will be allowing their child to talk to strangers over the net.
Perhaps the key is to assume that other parents are equally as caring* and intelligent as oneself and have had the sense to weigh up the pros and cons of their actions? I really don't see why people need everyone else to agree with them so that they feel validated in their choices.
In your situation Rhubarb I'd probably have got food an eaten it in the room, but that just makes me a less relaxed (about that issue) person who would probably have enjoyed their holiday less. Our dc would have been equally safe.
I don't get the judging, I really don't
*obviously, exceptions exist and we shouldn't ignore one
So let's do a risk assessment.
I would assess the quality of the hotel, i.e it's not a dingy Guest House in a dodgy area. I would assess how far it is from our room to the bar/restaurant (that would exclude Premier Inn, so we are talking a hotel with a restaurant on the premises). I would check the sensitivity of the baby monitor. I would then book a table for the earliest time, so say 7pm when it is quiet. We would be away from our room for around 2 hours and in that time we would check in on them every half hour. The monitor would be sat on the table in the restaurant and we could see the breathing monitor lit up quite clearly. We would not have to focus on it all evening.
That, to me, is far preferable than having to deal with a screaming, over-tired child who is disturbing everyone else (and there have been threads on Mumsnet about diners having their meals disturbed by screaming children and judgements about those parents too so you can't win) whilst you get more frazzled and upset.
Contrary to popular belief, a holiday is not just for the children but also a time when mum and dad can re-connect with each other too.
I'm not sure if that one was to me? I'm not really enjoying this discussion and it seems I'm winding you up. So, I'm going to stop posting now after concluding with:
I wouldn't do it, but I assume that others who do are perfectly loving and intelligent parents who have considered the risks and minimised them as we all do in every situation in which we make parenting decisions.
I am in that situation every time we want to eat out or go on holiday. It's not a situation.
Buffy I agree.
FWIW that first disasterous night the waiter actually did bring our meals up to our room for us but we were under the impression that this was an exception rather than the norm and sitting on the ends of our bed eating a meal isn't quite the same!
I have spent a fair amount of my time in a darkened hotel room with dh from 7pm just sat there waiting for them to sleep. You cannot turn the light on as it will waken them, you cannot watch TV, you are doomed to retire at the same time as them unless you can afford adjoining rooms. We've even squatted in the bathroom with a glass of wine before now, trying to catch 10 minutes together.
I do not know how other people can go straight to their hotel rooms at 7pm with the kids. What do you do? Can your kids sleep with the TV on? Because mine never could! Do you go to bed at the same time as them? What on earth do you do?
Yes I'm sure some would say "take them with you!" but my kids had a routine. By 7pm they were tired and wanted to go to bed. Staying up late came when they were older and more able to handle it. As tots they just got over-tired and grumpy and would scream and scream.
And again, you've 'got away with it' so many times you think it's ok.
x-posts Buffy, no it wasn't aimed at you at all. You are one of the voices of reason and one of the posters who is able to remain civil even whilst having a different opinion.
Don't worry about it Rhubarb, you don't really care if people judge you, surely? People do have skewed values, this is no different.
I do think as well, that we should all remember that this only lasts a few years, then it's all change. Ooh wait....I can feel a MN phrase coming on....This too shall pass .
ParadiseChick so many times? How many times do you think I have done it?
I can count them on one hand.
It's not ok to you no. There are lots of things that are equally not ok to me either but I manage to remain polite and pleasant about them.
You suck it up.
They sleep in buggies, you book bigger hotel rooms so there's space for them to sleep, you book a room with a balcony or one that opens out onto space you can enjoy that. You stay in villas.
You don't keep doing the same thing and expecting peace - adapt! There are a million options before leaving your babies alone.
Peppermint I clearly don't. I have been on loads of these threads, they always turn nasty and it's always those who think it's appauling behaviour that are the nastiest. Implying that you don't love your children? That's pretty low but also pretty standard for these threads. I'm sure they would have our children taken off us if they could. They don't seem to understand different opinions or different ways of parenting. They just have a black and white view of things. I'm glad I'm now older and wiser because attitudes like these, back when I was new at parenting, anxious and incredibly sensitive these comments would probably have destroyed me.
ParadiseChick yeah because everyone has the money to get a bigger hotel room with a balcony.
Meantime, in the real world where most hotel rooms consist on just one small room with a bathroom you have no choice but to either retire at 7pm or adapt as you said, and we did adapt. You don't like our adaption, so suck it up yourself. It's none of your business frankly. Just like your parenting skills are none of mine.
Maybe when people are telling you it's wrong you listen?
If that's what you require froma break and you can't afford it you don't go!
A caravan would be better suited to your needs.
Your adaptations result in infants being left alone and you talk about it like's it's a valid alternative - it's not.
It's very black and white.
I do not know how other people can go straight to their hotel rooms at 7pm with the kids. What do you do? Can your kids sleep with the TV on? Because mine never could! Do you go to bed at the same time as them? What on earth do you do?
My dc were similar to yours Rhubarb they couldn't stay up late and needed silence and darkness to sleep. So not much fun!
We either got holiday cottages or self catering type affairs. Mostly though, we've not bothered with holidays because up until now they've seemed like doing all the work of parenting small children, just in an unfamiliar place with less of the stuff you need! Not relaxing in the least
Better now they're a bit older though.
Well, yes, I take your point about being younger. I would have been scared to death by some of the views on here!
Oh ParadiseChick nothing, absolutely nothing is black and white. I can't abide this business of telling other people that they're wrong and obviously they should done this or this.
Seriously, what possible business is it of yours how people parent their dc?
No need to apologise. I don't want a bunfight with you. It's too hot.
I get that you've left a very young baby in a hotel room alone and it worked out. That is all well and good. I'm sure you love your kids and did what you felt was right.
In my case, being a loving mother entails being there when the baby wakes up, as my daughter has always been an appalling sleeper and cannot be easily calmed if she wakes up alone. She is just one of those very needy babies, and the complete opposite of my little cousin, who could probably sleep through a nuclear war and wake up, giggling, 12 hours later.
So no, I wouldn't leave my kid alone, and indeed do not go further than a room away during her naps. Paedophiles don't enter into it.
A certain number of paedophiles and child murderers do exist. Fanny Adams wasn't the first victim and April Jones won't be the last. In these times, when 99% of parents seem to be rather over-protective of their kids (endless safety devices, taking kids to the school gates in an armoured car, monitoring their SMSs and internet usage), such sickos as do dwell among us will be targeting the kids whose parents are more relaxed about things. If only one out a class of twenty primary school children walks home alone from primary school, that child is slightly more vulnerable now to the tiny number of paedophiles that there are.
Because you cannot really judge someone by appearances, and because I don't want my kid to be the only one "available" to someone who did have those tendencies, I will be very cautious about her as she gets older.
You are completely right about the internet thing, by the way- many anxious parents drop the ball there completely.
ParadiseChick why should I listen to people who condemn my parenting skills and imply that I don't love my kids?
Who are you to tell me how to book my holidays? Seriously, who the hell do you think you are?
Do you let your kids watch TV whilst you are out of the room? How many hours of TV do they watch? Did you breastfeed until they were one? Did you do baby-led weaning with your kids? Do they have internet access? Mobile phones? How about I pull you apart on one of your parenting decisions?
Telling me to book a caravan! Sod off!
Maybe when people are telling you it's wrong you listen?
FFS! What qualifies you to tell people they're wrong? Why should your opinions be listened to above others? Gah!
I'm someone who wouldn't leave my babies sleeping alone to fill my face. I'm someone who puts their need to be looked after over my need for a lasange and a glass of wine.
It's that simple.
Babies on their own is never right, therefore it's wrong. HTH.
Oh what absolute tosh.
It's not an opinion, it's basic stuff about looking after the offspring your produce.
It's unjustifiable. I've yet to see a justification worthy of leaving babies or toddlers alone at night in a hotel.
Which is the issue in hand.
I can't even be bothered to demolish your 'argument' Paradise
Please do, I'd be very interested to hear you justify it.
themaltesecat I get what you are saying and thank you for putting it so reasonably in a way that some are incapable of.
Your baby was different to mine. So no, it would not have suited your baby but mine followed a routine. She was a good sleeper and needed her bed at 7pm or she'd become very ratty.
I knew that if she woke up, I would be there within minutes. We have stayed in enough friends houses where, if she had woken up she would have had to wait for me to go into her room anyway so I don't get the terror of waking up in a strange room with no parents. That could happen anywhere, even in a caravan in the middle of the night and it might take you a while to crawl out of bed to reassure them.
Your children are more at risk from someone they know. So being a protective parent makes no difference. April Jones was playing out with a friend, not far from home as a treat for getting a good result at school. She got into a van with a family friend - a friend of her mums. How on earth could that have been prevented?
My friend sometimes picks my dd up on her way back from school if it's pouring it down with rain. Am I to be so paranoid as to ask her not to do that?
I may seem relaxed on some things and yes I do believe in giving my children freedom so they can play outside and these days they venture a little farther, so perhaps to the shop and back. I don't believe in keeping them indoors glued to a TV set. But on others I am very strict and I would not ever allow a stranger or neighbour to babysit whilst they were young. I still get uncomfortable about sleepovers and that never happened until dd was at secondary.
Like you say, we all make different choices and we have a different attitude to risk. In my mind, I did everything I could to ensure my kids were safe and if there was a greater risk, I would not have taken it.
I think people have an irrational fear. Nobody would even cross a road if you looked at the actual risks.
Having said that, you do need to risk assess and do what you feel comfortable with, whilst thinking rationally. There have been times when we have booked cottages villas etc for this reason. Also, we have sat in the corridor of a hotel with our backs to the door, waiting and listening for the kids to go to sleep (they wouldn't settle if they knew they had company), then gone back in and watched tv. And once - yes I admit, we left a one year old in a room while we had a special anniversary meal. I phoned the hotel in advance and asked for the room next to the restaurant and used a baby monitor.
Whilst I would try to avoid leaving them if possible, I have also used common sense at times.
TBH, I judge parents letting their small children stay up till midnight, when they obviously need their bed, more than I do parents who risk assess and use baby monitors, in places where they could get to easily and quickly.
MM's case is different. Too far, unlocked and no constant monitoring. I do think it has induced so much paranoia that it is unhealthy though.
ParadiseChick get over yourself love.
Do you sleep in the same room as your children? Do you leave them alone in the evenings whilst you go downstairs and watch TV?
My children were safer than yours because I could not only hear their breathing but also monitor it on the screen. It is not possible for you to hear your child's breathing from downstairs with the TV on and I'll wager you don't have a monitor that allows you to see it either.
I did. Therefore I had a far better idea of what was going on in that room than you could.
My 2 DC sleep very heavily. When they are asleep they are asleep and very very unlikely to wake.
In a small hotel, under the right circumstances I'd probably be OK with going downstairs to bar/restaurant with a baby monitor. I'd have to see how I felt at the time though & would listen to my instincts.
With a toddler I'd be more likely to get them asleep in a buggy and take them with me & in fact I've done this many times.
It would not be a holiday for me to sit in a hotel room from 7/8 pm every night. And for this reason hotels really don't appeal. Which is why we do glamping/camping/holiday cottage holidays, so when the DC are in bed we can relax the garden with wine etc and everyone is happy.
shewhowines exactly that - common sense.
This is not something we would do all the time and if we could have afforded a villa or apartment we would have got one. We obviously would not have them dd or ds if we didn't have to but in certain instances, it was either that or take them with us and have them scream the restaurant down or retire to bed at 7pm.
This culture of paranoia is unhealthy and it restricts children. How many kids do you see playing out on the streets these days? Even during the holidays you hardly see them because most are shut indoors watching TV or given access to the internet where they are more at risk.
And yes, forcing a tired child to stay up until late whilst parents stuff their faces and drink copious amounts is much worse imo.
OK then, in a nutshell:
The yardstick against which you are judging the behaviour of other posters is opinions, not facts. Your opinions are not objective.
You say you should never leave a baby alone to 'fill your face' (nice use of neutral opinion language, for your social intervention). How close must one be to one's baby when one eats? Should there be walls between you? How thick should they be? What about being on different floors? What about external noise levels? Does the surroundings of one's house make a difference? Does it depend upon the size of the hotel? If it's not just your snap judgemental opinion, you should have detailed and specific answers for all these perfectly reasonable points of clarification, otherwise how will people wanting to follow your parenting school's diktats know if they are doing it wrong?
Yada yada. Don't stick your nose into other people's business.
You don't leave your babies alone in hotel rooms. It really is that easy.
It's not your home, it's not comparible.
Babies gain nothing from being alone in a hotel room whilst mum and dad have dinner - it's not comparible to letting a 6 year old out to play or watch to much TV - which you seem intent on bringing up even though it bears no relevence to this thread.
None of my business? True, they aren't my babies being left alone.
I've still to hear a justifcation for this behaviour.
So ParadiseChick since you seem so intent on judging others to be unfit parents, tell us about your set-up then.
Where do your children go to bed? Upstairs? Right above your living room? And do you have the TV on downstairs whilst they are in bed or are you sat there quietly, trying to hear them? How old is your house? How thick are the walls? Have you ever gone outside in the evening, even if just to put the bins out whilst they are asleep?
Come on, you've judged me so now let me judge you. I've been honest and told you of my individual situation so the least you can do is to tell us all yours.
Honestly, hotels offer it because it attracts families and the more relaxed and comfortable those families feel, the more money they spend. Hotels are businesses and unfortunately the bottom line is always the most important thing.
Also, I've never mentioned getting a babysitter!
I honestly think people will do what they feel best, an I doubt many parents leave their children to go off clubbing. It's just not something I would do, for the reasons already stated.
Who are you? The Secret Branch of Social Services? Why the fuck should I justify anything to some rude stranger on the internet?
ItsAFuckingVase again, thanks for a more reasoned response.
Yes I understand why hotels offer the service, but if anything went wrong surely that would leave them open to being sued by the parents? So if the risk was so great, many hotels would refuse to do it?
The fact is that a number of hotels do offer this service still. Personally I would rather trust my own baby monitor than a member of staff with a connected telephone to my room
<links arms with Rhubarb even though we have different opinions about whether we would leave our own children in a hotel room to eat an evening meal downstairs>
We oppose ignorant judgementalism together!
You're right- generally- about stranger danger. Actually, it sounds as though we are hold quite similar views in general. Who knows? If I had had a baby like yours, who followed any semblance of a routine and didn't launch herself from mild whimpering to full-scale hysterics within five seconds, perhaps I'd have considered acting as you did. Of course, you judged the risks and it's very, very good that you judged correctly.
Re: April Jones, nothing could have protected that poor wee mite from that man, and I hope it doesn't appear from what I said that I think her poor parents were slack. I think, in that case, all the circumstances colluded so that she was available at that particular time when he was ready to pounce. Should they not have let her ride her bike as a reward for a good report, on the off-chance a murderer came past? No, how daft that sounds. Will I let my child ride her bike out of eyeshot? Not a chance. I'd be just as concerned by other risks such as her darting into the street- but again, it depends on the child. My farmer friend was riding a tractor when she was three, and I couldn't manage a bike on the road till I was about twenty , so it's impossible to extrapolate from one kid to another!
There is a vast difference between wrapping them in cotton wall and wilfully exposing them to danger, and the poster who suggested it's a "black and white" issue perhaps hasn't thought it through enough.
I think the best post was about the lottery ticket.
I can't actually think of anyone who would leave a jackpot lottery ticket in a locked hotel room in plain sight...
None of that is the same with leaving a baby in a hotel room, it's just not.
But, seeing as you asked, they go to bed in their bed rooms. I have a 2 bed house, built circa 1960 (give or take a few years), I sometimes have the TV on, sometimes music, sometimes nothing. I sometimes sit in the garden (back, their window is at the back too, lock the front door) and even put the bins out - crazy behaviour in my own home isn't it?
I'll get back to you on the thickness of the walls, I have not a clue.
I'm not 'trying' to hear them, I hear them when they need me, I am up and down the stairs for various reasons (loo, my room etc) and I'm there.
Can you say the same when your baby is in a hotel room and you're in a resturant? You're not there.
But, once again for the hard of
hearing reading, it's not a comparision you can make because that's my home, their home.
Why won't people learn the lessons from history?
If the disappearance of Madelaine STILL doesn't make people realise that you just cannot do it, then I really do fucking despair.
Absolutely not, we stayed in a small hotel recently and I put DD to sleep in the room whilst DP and DS had a drink so I could get DD to sleep better. Once she was asleep I locked the door and ran to DP to say she was asleep and they could come back and then ran straight back.
The cafe was 5 doors away from the room, but just the art of locking my daughter in a strange room turned my stomach and I couldn't bring myself to leave it unlocked, I couldn't get back there quick enough.
Leaving her their to have dinner??? Absolutely no chance.
didnt this one get shut down last time?
You've taken a stance and I'd like to hear why. Whhere that reason is there that makes it ok in your head to leave your baby to go eat a meal?
Where along the line does a meal become more important?
I bet your valuables were in the safe.
Interestingly there was a lady on another thread who couldnt even sit in her own garden when her kids where in bed because she was so terrified that someone could come in and take them.
Anyone remember being left in the car whilst your parents had dinner if you where naughty?
Right, right. So, in order for it to be ok, you have to pop back frequently. How frequently, exactly, would you say that you pop upstairs to check your children? Can you define "there" more fully, please?
...I recognise that this is silly, by the way. I am attempting to show how easy it is to judge a decision that somebody else makes in circumstances where they can weigh up a great many details that are specific to that situation and you can not. D'ya see?
If the disappearance of Madelaine STILL doesn't make people realise that you just cannot do it, then I really do fucking despair. But we are not comparing like for like. Think ratiionally. If you are close by and can hear everything on a baby monitor then you are supervising your kids, probably better than most people do in their own homes with windows and doors open.
There, as in there, as in not in a resturant god knows how far away eating my dinner.
In my house.
That easier to grasp for you?
*cotton wool not cotton wall (unless it's Pink Batts, for any other Kiwis on here).
Totally wrong. We don't leave our 17 month old on his own at our own house even if we have to go to the loo. There is always someone with him in the room. On holiday he would sleep in the pushchair next to us - regardless of where we are. The lay flat position is invented for a good reason
oh god - now we're not even allowed to leave them on their own while we go to the loo in our own homes! single parents are doomed.
oh god - now we're not even allowed to leave them on their own while we go to the loo in our own homes! single parents are doomed.
I was also trying to figure out this one, shewhowines. What is the answer? A catheter bag?
No paradise sorry. If you are right, because you are right damn it, then I must have more clarity. Otherwise how will I know whether I am making the correct parenting choices?
So, it's OK if you are in the same building eating, even if you are in different rooms, provided you are "there" and you pop back quite often (but we're not sure quite how often) then it's OK? That doesn't sound too different to what Rhubarb described, other than the building was a small Greek hotel and not her home...
I'm going to stop now, because I don't think I'm succeeding in getting my point across and I don't want to irritate you so much I ruin your day
Kids of today are going to grow up with so many hangups and even if you've had a relatively normal upbringing, chances are you're going to be in a relationship with someone completely paranoid about all and nothing. I feel sorry for todays kids.
You have no point, that's what's irritating.
Your home =/= hotel
Hotel =/= your home
For goodness sake, your child is less likely to be snatched if there is somebody there with it, as opposed to the child being left on their own.
Please stop saying that you cannot compare, yes you can compare.
It just depends on the situation, surely? I have left DS (when aged 8 months or so) in his cot in a hotel room while we ate dinner downstairs with the monitor - but literally down the stairs, in a hotel the size of a large house. I could hear if he made any noise, I could get back into the room in less than 30 seconds, windows and doors were secure. I would not do it in a larger hotel and I would certainly not leave the premises. But in that situation I think he was just as safe as when I leave him in his own room and eat in the garden with the monitor. Which I am doing all the time at the moment.
I do so have a point, it's just that I'm obviously not making it very well
Yeah I feel sorry for them too, not being left in a strange room as a baby when mum and dad eat god knows how far (because lets face it, how close are you) away from them must be so restricting to their freedoms.
Exactly donttell Judge each situation on it's own merits
Nobody is advocating leaving them any distance paradise .
ParadiseChick I am not answerable to you so I don't believe I have to justify anything to you. I described one of the circumstances in which I left my child in a hotel room.
FWIW in that hotel restaurant, which was one floor away from our room, our monitor meant that we could hear her. We would hear if anyone went into the room. We heard her breathing and saw it flashed on the monitor. We were also checking in on her every half hour - in case you missed that? So I fail to see how that is less safe than you being sat downstairs with your music on whilst your kids sleep upstairs.
If they got out of bed, you might not hear them. If they opened their window, you might not hear them, if they were sick, you might not hear them until they started crying. We would be able to hear all of this.
So in those two comparisons, my child would actually be safer on that night.
And yes I have left money in hotel rooms. I have never used the hotel safe. I do not have valuables, if I did we would have booked an apartment. I have had things stolen from my person twice. I have never had anything stolen from a hotel room. But then I don't tend to frequent hotels, for us it's a one-off; a special occasion.
I think people are getting hysterical now and the thread is getting stupid.
Next thing you know someone will be stating that aliens might descend on the hotel and make off with them!
I think this thread shows just how very far we have moved, as a society, from intelligent and reasonable parents being able to make a reasoned rick assessment and decision re their DC, without hysterics judgements and scorn from the "But what if" brigade.
Clearly, we should all just stay home forever, and clutch pearls quietly, and without wine or gin, in front of our own televisions (which if course are no further away than the room next door than that our sleeping babies).
<<capitalism and the world as we know it falls apart>>
There will always be a What If? And that is individual to the circumstances.
If I feel that my child is safe in a hotel room with a baby monitor whilst we have a meal in the same establishment, having consulted with each other and done a risk assessment and with other alternatives having been explored then I retain the right, as a parent to make that decision.
It is not illegal and it is not defined as child abuse. It is up to the discretion of the individual parents involved and anyone else can suck on it.
Tragedies happen - but the odds of them happening are miniscule.
The odds of being killed or injured in a car accident are much higher. None of us need to drive. We could choose to live close to where we walk and never need to get in to a car. Yet we judge the risk of driving to be acceptable - and no-one judges other parents for driving their kids places.
I for one do not think it is healthy - for the parent or the child to live life constrained by what might happen. But I accept that everyone makes different judgements as to what is acceptable risk.
I am trying hard not to be at the refusal to let a 13 year old to stay in a hotel room on their own - he may, for example have special needs or be particularly badly behaved
becool Don't you mean we should be in the same room as our sleeping babies watching tv with our headphones on. If we make the picture dark the light shouldn't disturb them too much. We mustn't eat anything though or we may choke and then won't be there for them in an emergency. Oh no wait, using the tv might cause an electrical fire. Perhaps we should just sit quietly in a dark room. But of course we wouldn't actually be able to see our babies then...
Being abusive to other parents who make different judgement calls is also very wrong. End of.
Look at your standards of parenting before you criticise others. I'm damn sure if you were to reveal some of the choices you had made, we could all have a good judge and condemnation session of our own.
I think everybody is just reacting from the gut without any real basis for the fear so long as each risk is carefully assessed. Understandable, because it is scary having to bring up kids in todays world of many dangers. But overprotecting them can cause them damage, just in an emotional rather than physical way.
There has to be a happy medium.
DT and I were brought up by parents who wrote the book on "benign neglect", but they would have baulked at this.
Ok, so you've got a baby monitor sitting on the table, and you're sure if anything did happen you'd be able to dash up the stairs and attend to your DC as quickly as possible. But what if it's too late? What if they've already pulled something over themselves, stumbling about in a dark unfamiliar room? What if a staff member coming in to turn the bed down scares the crap out of them? That's before you even consider the risks of someone entering for nefarious reasons; Micheala McAreavy was in a "nice" five star hotel and was killed when she found her room being burgled. I don't think her killers would have thought twice because it was a 4 or 5 year old instead of a grown woman.
We take risks every day, but for me, I don't think it's worth it. It'll be an early dinner and a bottle of wine on the balcony for us.
Ah no ones answering that one!
Please, anybody its a genuine question.
If you had a multi-million pound winning lottery ticket would you leave it in a locked hotel room in plain sight?
I think you are wrong curlew and that there are many differences.
(1). Your toddler will be familiar with it's own room and less likely to be frightened on waking
(2). Strangers will not be in your home. Nor have keys to your child's door.
(3). You will have ensured that your child's room at home is 'childproof'.
(4). In the event of a fire or other emergency there will not be anyone in your home preventing you from going back to the room.
(5). In any event very few ordinary homes are as big as even a small hotel.
I cannot understand why parents would take such a risk.
But that's exactly my point about judging the situation for yourself. In the situation I described, my DS couldn't have pulled something over himself - I checked there was nothing in reach. He couldn't have stumbled about - he was 8 months old. There weren't any staff going in to the room - the hotel was run by a couple who knew where he was and where we were.
It might be too late to reach your child in any number of circumstances, surely, including in the home? Risk assessment is the key and we all undertake hundreds of risk assessments regarding our children's safety every day, as others have said.
TheCraicDealer if they pulled something on themselves then what does it matter how near you are? If you have a baby monitor you might hear things that you would not hear if you were downstairs with the TV on and the kids in another part of the house.
What do you not get about baby monitors? This baby monitor is one of the cheapest. "Five LEDs on the MBP8 baby monitor indicate the level of sound activity in the room, letting you keep an eye on your baby's activity by a simple visual representation." So if your child stood up and started to pull something over (terrible parents for leaving something having over their cots) then you would hear them better than if you did not have a baby monitor.
Many people are burgled so let's not leave our homes unless we are burgled. Oh but they can burgle us whilst we are asleep! Panic rooms, it's the only answer.
It wouldn't bother me. I'd make a risk assessment and if, for some reason, I couldn't keep it with me , I'd put it in somewhere not so obvious in the room and lock the room. I also leave my jewellry in the room without worrying.
I do however go through life assuming that most people are actually good and nice and that nasty things won't happen. I find it makes for a happier life. In 52 years, that approach has served me well.
"that's exactly my point" was following on from TCD, by the way.
In response to your question, LookingForward: I can think of circumstances where the ticket would be safer not on my person. If, for example, I had just won the lottery, and I were going out in a foreign city for dinner (risk of mugging or losing ticket somehow), then I might choose to leave the ticket locked in a room instead. It's not a good analogy for childcare imo.
But if I had a multi-million pound-winning lottery ticket, I would upgrade to a hotel room with a safe
Because you might say oh a lottery ticket has nothing to do with my parenting style...but answer me this.
If you know that you would not leave that object, which would be precious to you (hell its a winning lottery ticket whoohoo) in a locked hotel room in plain sight, because of the chance that someone you don't want to could enter your room.
If you would keep it on your person to keep it safe until you got home (not representative but everyone I have asked today has gone for this option)
If you would keep the ticket with you, but consider it ok to leave your kids in said hotel room...
You need to get priorities straight.
We don't leave our 17 month old on his own at our own house even if we have to go to the loo. There is always someone with him in the room. - seriously - you never, ever leave a 17 month old on his own - do you take turns at staying up all night so someone is always awake? I cannot begin to understand how your child will cope when (if) he goes to play group/nursery or school? Surely you want to encourage independence and being able to amuse himself?
I think the lottery analogy is perfect.
a) I take it that you do not take your child away then? Not to a villa or apartment as they will wake up in a different room and you will be in your room.
b) Fair point although hotel security is pretty beefed up atm thanks to the high risk of the hotel being sued for not providing adequate security. In many hotels this includes CCTV cameras on all corridors and sophisticated card locks.
c) Most hotel rooms are also childproof again because of insurance requirements. In fact they are safer than many homes because they don't have little knick knacks lying around that might be picked up and blinds are pretty much prohibited in hotel rooms.
d) We have already established that it is a myth that you will be prevented from getting your child in the event of a fire and many hotels are safer than homes because again, of insurance. They are required by law to have smoke alarms, fire blankets, fire extinguishers and sprinklers.
e) Yes hotels are bigger than many homes but you are not occupying the entire hotel, you might be on the same floor as your child or just up the stairs which is comparable to someone being in their garden and having to clear their garden furniture and living room furniture to get to their child - presuming that is that they have heard the crisis unfold which they would have if they had a baby monitor.
These sort of threads are interesting to look at people's understanding of risk. It seems much of it comes down to a gut reaction, whereas other risks are more accepted.
Mortified and Looking it is not a perfect analogy.
You are comparing a thief with a paedophile. If someone was to enter your room, you are presuming that they would be after stealing your child.
There are problems with this.
1) You would hear them on the baby monitor.
So the question you should be asking is: Would you be ok leaving a lottery ticket in plain view in a locked hotel room with a baby monitor.
My answer is an emphatic yes. If I had valuables and I was that concerned about them and the hotel did not have a safe, I would simply put the baby monitor on.
I think, for the sake of your own arguments, you are completely bypassing the merits of a monitor.
OK, so if someone happened to enter your locked hotel room for an unexpected reason and saw a winning lottery ticket on the bed on the spur of the moment, there is a risk that they will take it - if they are predisposed to theft.
If someone entered your locked hotel room for an unexpected reason and saw a baby in a cot, there is a risk they will take or harm it - if they are predisposed to child abduction or abuse.
If you can protect your child by using a monitor and being within very close reach, then you are mitigating adequately against an already small risk, imo. I would say again that it's best to judge on individual circumstances - age/ mobility of child, nature of hotel, quality of monitor and proximity of parents being the key factors. Whereas the lottery ticket is a temptation to anyone who might see it, a child is a very different sort of 'precious object', surely?
I'd be more concerned about me losing the ticket than it being stolen. That's the only reason I'd keep it on me.
With the one exception I have never lost ds . At 2, he was safely constrained within his travel cot and sound asleep. Just remembered another occasion when we did when we were at a wedding and he was about 9 months old. Never had any qualms.
I honestly don't think that there are people waiting around the corner looking for an unattended
lottery ticket child to steal. I honestly don't.
The point I'm making is that the surroundings are unfamiliar; you might know what the hazards are in your own home, but a hotel room you've potentially only been in for a number of hours is completely different. Most people would take reasonable steps to baby/toddler proof their own homes, but you cannot expect all hotels to take the same precautions. At least if you're in the room you can say, "darling, it's not a good idea to pull all the drawers out of that unit to reach the telly".
Many people are burgled so let's not leave our homes unless we are burgled. Oh but they can burgle us whilst we are asleep! Most peoples' homes do not have keys or key card entry that can be accessed quickly and without difficulty by literally tens of people in close proximity. You can have the whole room full of baby monitors if it makes you feel better, but unfortunately the people who might wish to access your room wouldn't know this and would still try to get in, if that's what they want.
I dealt with a fire in a hotel recently with work; it was an electrical fire in a laundry, completely unforeseeable. All rooms in the vicinity suffered smoke ingress, the corridors leading to the rooms were caked in smoke residue. After seeing that, and imagining how difficult it would have been to access the bedrooms in that area with that level of smoke without breathing apparatus, I wouldn't take the risk. If you're in the room already at least you can try to get the kids out through the window or something. I wouldn't do it.
I'm not comparing a thief to an abductor.
I was talking about the risk of anyone entering your hotel room that you did not want to?
Whether it is a thief or the other it would scare the crap out of your children and obviously put them at risk.
I fail to see how a monitor would prevent this?
I was just wondering. Because when its something like a winning lottery ticket people become a ton more concerned about a stranger entering their room.
I was just wondering why it was risky for the ticket but acceptable for children to be left in the open in a locked hotel room.
Leave a bag of cash in the street and chances are someone will take it. Leave a child in the street and chances are someone will report it.
In the cases were babies have been abandoned by their mother, either in the toilets at Gatwick or on a doorstep, those babies have been handed in to the police.
Looking a monitor would enable you to hear someone enter the room. Now if they were quick, they would snatch the lottery ticket before you were able to get there. A baby is a little more difficult to just snatch away, particularly in a hotel full of people.
You are also forgetting that many hotels have CCTV.
TheCraicDealer ditto. Monitors do not prevent crimes from happening but they do enable you to hear if someone has entered the room.
Why do you think hotels are full of baby snatching paedos by the way?
And yes, fires do happen. I'm not denying that. But I am saying that hotels have a far better system of dealing with fires than your average house.
The risk of your hotel setting fire is miniscule, the risk of a paedo entering your hotel room and snatching your baby is less so.
A fire could happen here at home. I do not have sprinklers or fire extinguishers or fire exits. My smoke alarm is not connected to the local fire station.
My children could die in their sleep, I would never know. When younger they could have got out of bed and choked on a Lego brick and I would never have known. They could be sick in their sleep and choke on it and I would never know. Yet I still chose to put them in their own rooms at night whilst I sat downstairs watching TV.
And fwiw I never childproofed my house. My kids learnt. Shoot me now.
See this baby monitor? It has a video on it and is less than a hundred pounds.
If you were that worried about your lottery ticket, with this set up I'm sure that even the most paranoid person would be happy enough to leave the lottery ticket in their room and dine downstairs.
Actually, leave a bag of cash in the street and the chances are that someone would try to find who had left it or take it the police.
I have chased after someone who left the bank counter without picking up their £100 (a fortune over 30 years ago - and I was an impoverished student), losing my place in the queue. I have had a dropped purse returned to me. People help me to find the diamond in my engagement ring when it popped out in Lidl.
But as others have said, a breathing
crying wriggling child is a totally different proposition.
And in terms of drawers, plugs, blinds, windows, the risk inside a travel cot is the same whatever room that travel cot is located.
If you are using a monitor then you will hear everything untoward and return to your room!
actually the biggest risk would be leaving your unattended lottery ticket near your child
you would hear the child destroy the ticket via the monitor but it would be too late to stop them
Or even worse, you would SEE your child destroy the ticket on the monitor.
I would say that if you take your child out to eat in a restaurant, the odds are greater that they are run over or have an accident, than if they are safely asleep in the locked hotel room with the baby monitor on, and parents in close proximity.
and then they would choke on the ticket before you could get back to the room
Why do you think hotels are full of baby snatching paedos by the way? I don't. In fact, I have been careful to avoid making comments like that because the chance of that happening is small and suggestions that there are paedophiles lurking around every corner are ridiculous. However within our family, we have had our hotel room accessed using a key to gain entry (either by a staff member or mugger) three times. The first was when my Mum's bag was pickpocket'ed when DT and I were 20 months old; they got in and cleaned the room out. If DM and D had left us to go for dinner in the interim, well, I think we probably would have been a bit scared to say the least.
I have dealt with three hotel fires within a comparatively small geographical area in the last 18 months. They aren't as rare as you think. You can't compare fighting your way down a long, unfamiliar hotel corridor and a domestic property which you could navigate around blindfolded. Unless you live in Sandringham, or something. Anyway, I'm not having a go, clearly it's worked for you. I'm just saying I wouldn't do it.
* The first was when my Mum's bag was pickpocket'ed when DT and I were 20 months old; they got in and cleaned the room out. If DM and D had left us to go for dinner in the interim, well, I think we probably would have been a bit scared to say the least.*
Probably not as surprised and scared as the intruders. I should imagine the vast majority would beat a very hasty retreat.
You have been unlucky TheCraicDealer I have never had such an experience but like I say, with a baby monitor you would have heard the intruders and would probably have been there before they left with your valuables.
As for fires. I still state that a hotel is less of a fire risk than your home because of all the safety measures they put in place. I'm not talking about 1 star hotels but reputable hotels. Because they ban smoking, because all the electrical wiring HAS to be checked and certified; because they have to do these checks regularly; because they have a fire plan; because they have sprinklers and smoke alarms and fire extinguishers.
If you were staying with relatives or a friend you cannot vouch for the safety of their homes. What if one of them smoked? What if they had a real fire? What if the batteries were out of the smoke alarm? What if the wiring was faulty? Yet I bet that almost every poster who has condemned me would happily stay at a relative's house with their child and not even think of the fire risks.
I got my MIL a smoke alarm because I did think of the risks, that's how irresponsible a parent I am.
You've heard actual instances from myself and another member who worked as a hotel manager. If you choose then to dismiss this risk then of course that is your choice. Some mothers still smoke around children/whilst pregnant etc.. there is only so much people can say to get others to appreciate the risks and prioritise the wellbeing of the child. It appears to be this type of scenario here.
I think its perfectly understandable that people would judge as especially in light of the infamous case (and in a similar sort of vein to smoking) the majority of people have greater awareness and are not as complacent these days.
It's completely different from smoking in pregnancy!
Smoking in pregnancy = quantifiable, demonstrable, proven risk to child
Leaving baby in hotel room with provisions that seem adequate to parent in the individual circumstances = uncertain risk
What we are arguing about, surely, is the degree of the uncertain risk. It's ridiculous to suggest that those of us who argue there are circumstances in which we would take such as risk are no different from people who consciously put their baby at a known risk through smoking.
Would you still justify the risks you took if something did happen to your child while they were left unattended in a hotel room?
Could you look people in the eye ever again and say I did the right thing by leaving my child in a unfamiliar place because I did a risk assessment?
I'm sure MM's parents did a risk assessment and felt it was the right thing to do. If nothing bad had happened that night maybe they'd still justify their decision today but I'm sure they regret it looking back.
I know I'm a slightly cautious parent but that's mainly because I have suffered with anxiety for several years. My brain often plays me images of terrible things happening to my kids. I will follow my instincts as much as possible on whether something feels 'right' and this just doesn't to me.
because all the electrical wiring HAS to be checked and certified; because they have to do these checks regularly Ya think? They have to for liability to engage, but it's not checked up on as often as you'd hope. And a good proportion of hotel fires (at least in this neck of the woods) are deliberate; if an accelerant is used sprinkler systems and fire extinguishers will do frig all, the best bet is to get everyone out safely and wait on the appliances to arrive. The level of smoke is unreal, seriously.
I'll concede your point about the domestic housing situation, but leaving young children in a hotel room on their own is not on a par with being in their normal room, in their own home.
I think it is grotesque to keep comparing this to Madeleine McCann, esp when you won't even mention her name. Completely different scenario and those poor parents will always be blamed. It's disgraceful.
hamilton75 I never came on here to have my opinion changed dear. I came on to speak common sense, to put facts and stats on the table and explain why I chose to do what I did. I did not think I would change anyone's views either but I did think that those who were making terrible comparisons and hurling abuse about might actually stop to think.
Greater awareness - did you know that child abduction cases have decreased? And that the majority are by someone the child knows?
Did you also know that hotel safety is now much better thanks to strict health and safety laws? When you say greater awareness I say greater paranoia.
Sorry but you have come up with ridiculous hypothesis time and again which fly in the face of common sense.
Oh, and I couldn't give a rat's arse about the valuables, it would be the point that strangers got in to our room and scared the kids without me being there to protect them, that would put the shitters up me.
Not judging here. Honest.
I'm in the "wouldn't do it" camp as I've said.
I think there are some reasoned arguments on each side and also some spiky comments from both camps too tbh.
Definitely more risk in a hotel than is being suggested.
Plenty of ppl smoke in their rooms. Secretly.
Appliances are left on in unfamiliar surroundings
Nobody smokes in my house.
thecakeisalie, if something happened to my child while I had left it alone in a hotel room, I would, obviously, feel dreadful. But my point is that we have to do risk assessments all the time. As it happens, there are very few circumstances in which I would leave my child alone in a hotel room. But I think it is bonkers to act as though doing so if a form of low-grade child abuse in itself.
WITH A BABY MONITOR
It is so so so convenient for you lot to keep leaving that out isn't it?
WITH A BABY MONITOR FOR SHIT'S SAKE WITH A FUCKING BABY FUCKING MONITOR!
We can hear what they are doing. We can see what they are doing and yet you still think someone will come in and carry them away?
You still think that they will pull a ton weight on their heads and die?
thecakeisalie many parents whose children have died from sudden death syndrome and in many other ways think that all the time I am sure. What parent wouldn't? I would never let my child out of my sight if I thought that way and that would do more harm than good to my child.
Your arguments are all based on hypothetical risks and emotional guilt trips. I am so glad I don't know any of you. You would infuriate me to the point of explosion.
Would you still justify the risks you took if something did happen to your child while they were left unattended in a hotel room? Could you look people in the eye ever again and say I did the right thing by leaving my child in a unfamiliar place because I did a risk assessment?
But you could say exactly the same if you fell down the stairs carrying your baby on the way to the hotel restaurant or if the waitress spilt hot coffee on to your child. Would you say that you should have left them sleeping in their hotel room?
There are risks in everything you do in life. Some decisions are just judged more even though the actual risk is slight.
I apologise for using MM and not mentioning Madeleine McCann by name it wasn't deliberate just typing quickly. I personally think its a legitimate example of what is being suggested. Its one of those times where everyone thinks it'll never happen to me and unfortunately it did.
You say they will always be blamed but in all honesty can you say if they had been in the room with her that night it would have still happened?
I think if you are fully happy with your decision you don't need to spend time on here justifying that decision.
So a hotel carries some fire risk? Do you think I didn't know that? I still say a hotel is safer as regards fire than a house.
Let's just say you took your baby to your parents-in-law and you had separate rooms. Your baby wakes up in the night in a strange room without you there and starts to cry. Do you feel guilty about that?
No? Then why should I who was in a hotel restaurant and who heard my baby rouse and was there before she started crying properly.
Let's also say that your PIL live in a old house with faulty wiring, but they don't know that and neither do you. Do you insist on seeing the wiring certificate? No. Neither do I in a hotel but I can be sure that the wiring would have been checked more often than in a domestic house.
Let's also say that your PIL had an open fire, lovely in the evenings but when was the last time they had the chimney swept? What if there was a chimney fire? Also, you can see the one smoke alarm downstairs but what about upstairs? And do you ask them if they have checked the batteries recently?
I am guessing you would not do any of these things let you would take an acceptable risk and you would allow your child to stay overnight in that house. You might even have a meal downstairs with your PILs whilst your child slept in a strange room upstairs.
No way would I do it. It's nothing to do with paedo paranoia either - it's just what's called basic, responsible parenting. Leaving kids alone while you swan off for a meal and drinks is neglectful parenting.
Taking away from the abduction, or boa constrictor analogies on here (FGS) How do you think your child would feel if they woke up in a strange hotel room, all by themselves and not a clue where their mum and dad have gone? Or when, or indeed if, they'd be back? Minutes would seem like hours. They'd be terrified.
Or is that acceptable for them to feel that way?
All for the sake of a child free evening. If you want 'adult only' evenings on holiday - leave the kids at home with their grandparents. Or take another trusted family member with you to be babysitter on evenings.
If not possible, suck it up and remember you're a parent now. It's the kid's holiday too. Not just yours.
No shewhowines - what you have described there are potential accidents in everyday situations not an example of leaving a baby unattended with just a monitor in an unfamiliar place.
It wouldn't have happened with a baby monitor!! They would have known someone was in the room. Anyway they were too far away and the room was unlocked.
But the McCann case is not the same at all - see Rhubarb's point about the monitor. And there are other factors - proximity of parents, size of hotel, whether you leave the actual building, as I stated upthread. Surely you can see that risks have degrees? Your child could be hit by a meteorite and it would be "one of those times where everyone thinks it'll never happen to me and unfortunately it did". But it's really bloody unlikely isn't it?
I am not justifying that decision. I am not asking for anyone's acceptance. If I had to do it again I would.
The judgemental attitudes on here are making me wish I bloody well could do it again, live on Mumsnet so you can all have a good pearl-clutching moment.
I don't agree that it isn't comparable as in light of the M case I don't see how anyone can argue there isn't a known risk. People who would choose to leave their baby alone in a hotel room are consciously making that very choice.
The risk may be small but it is a real risk (as I am aware of through my professional experience and as other members have shared through their experiences).
Not every baby whose mother smoked has suffered harm so to that extent its an uncertain risk but most people wouldn't take that risk with something so precious at stake. Same goes for leaving a baby alone in a hotel room.
Unlikely but not impossible - with a monitor or not.
Accidents happen, bad people exist and so on - all I was saying was personally I could not justify my decision in the unlikely event that something did happen and I was curious whether those people with a different stance would maintain there stance if something bad were to happen. Its how my mind works - if the worst happens do I feel I did the right thing.
How do you think your child would feel if they woke up in a strange hotel room, all by themselves and not a clue where their mum and dad have gone? Or when, or indeed if, they'd be back? Minutes would seem like hours. They'd be terrified.
Am I talking to myself?
THEY. HAVE. A. BABY. MONITOR.
Which is what the couple in the OP had. A. BABY. MONITOR.
Shall I type slowly for those too dull to understand? Do you realise what that does dear? It monitors your children for you, clever isn't it? Technology these days eh? You see, when your children wake up, you either hear them or with these clever ones, you can even see them and return to your room.
See also the post about them waking up anywhere strange without you. Say, a holiday apartment "Ooooooh no strange room!" or a relative's house "Argh, strange room!"
If you are that worried about them waking up in a strange room then just make sure you never go on holiday. Stay at home. Lock the doors. Unplug everything. Don't eat or drink.
Paranoid parenting at its best.
Bloody hell, I'm just saying that these reasons which make staying in a hotel "safer" aren't necessarily true. You say you're making an informed decision and then when someone who knows through having recent professional knowledge of same says, "well hold on...", you bite their head off.
I'm not judging you; your kids, your rules. But as I've said before, due to my personal experiences (NOT the imagined threat of paedophiles or kidnappers) I wouldn't do it.
No shewhowines - what you have described there are potential accidents in everyday situations not an example of leaving a baby unattended with just a monitor in an unfamiliar place.
But in either scenario the baby could potentially be harmed, and avoided by taking the other course of action.
Why is one risk worth taking but the other not?
And the reason I am justifying my decision is because it seems important to emphasise that there are different degrees of risk in this scenario as in all situations.
I am not advocating shutting my child in a strange room and buggering off to the bar seven floors away. I am saying that I would leave (and have left) my baby in a cot, in a locked room, with a monitor, while I sat downstairs, less than a minute away, for the time it takes to eat a meal, in a small hotel where there were no keycards/ unknown staff wandering around, and where people could not get in from the street. This is totally consistent with basic, responsible parenting.
Because carrying your baby up and down stairs or being around hot liquids is fairly unavoidable.
We live a lifestyle where we choose holidays where we can be with our children but still relax (holiday cottages and so on) I can eliminate the risk of leaving my child in a hotel room but I cannot eliminate the risk of falling or hot liquids.
Helga - those points have already been addressed.
a) You are using
unnecessarily emotive language be saying "swanning off" for a meal,
b) A child waking up in an unfamiliar room. Presumably that means that you wouldn't ever go to a friend's and have a meal while your child sleeps in another room ?
c) A number of people (me included) have pointed out they are/were (ds is now 12 so no longer an issue) comfortable with this because their child was a sound sleeper who never woke up.
Well when my DS was a newborn I literally never had a hot drink while I was holding him because I knew someone who scalded their baby that way and I was paranoid about it. However, when I met friends and they drank coffee whilst holding their newborns, I did not think any the less of them as parents.
donttellalfred - and you feel happy with your decision and the risk you may have taken that's fine. I am not judging I was just posing the question of continuing to justify a risk if the small risk turned into a reality.
I am an anxious person anyway so I wouldn't be able to relax so it makes my choices quite simple however I was just applying my irrational way of thinking to this scenario.
My dd had an accident once. It was in Ikea. We had left her in the baby section that is set up so that they care for kids whilst you go shopping. One of the other girls had an accident. We don't know what happened but she sustained quite a bad head injury. Our dd fainted.
We weren't there and neither were the other parents. The staff handled it badly. No tannoy or anything. We returned to see blood all over the floor and our dd being comforted by a stranger. Not a member of staff but a stranger - another parent who had taken it upon themselves to help out whilst the staff ran around.
Now do you think we blamed ourselves? No. Shit happens and we were fortunate that the parent was kind and responsible.
We make decisions concerning our kids every day and sometimes those decisions don't work out. Sometimes those decisions involve risk, like allowing them to go on school residentials in primary school. Would the teachers care as well for your child as you would? Probably not. But you allow them to go anyway because you realise that in the long run it's for the best.
In the long run we all have relationships we need to manage and being a parent is a strain on even the best of relationships. A holiday is not just for children, it's also a chance for you to unwind as parents and re-connect. I've seen many occasions when stressed parents are trying to control an over-tired child and nobody looks happy or looks like they are enjoying themselves. That's not a holiday, that's an endurance test.
We chose to have a meal by ourselves in order to reconnect as a couple. Because we were finding it all very hard. We lacked family support and so were pretty much muddling through as best we could, but we also needed that time to be together, to re-charge our batteries.
In the long-run our relationship benefitted from us both making the decision to spend some time with each other.
I do not regret it for an instance and if the worst had happened I would not blame myself because sometimes shit happens even to the best of us and playing the blame game helps no-one. That is why I refuse to blame the McCanns even though their situation was different and not one I'd be comfortable with. A child was going to be kidnapped that night, if not theirs then someone else's. It was planned.
The risk of a stranger abducting your child though is so rare it's negligable and therefore that does not really compute as much of a risk on my radar.
Anyway I have to go and do some housework. My head is sore from all the banging my head on the desk.
We are all in agreement about not leaving children if there is a realistic alternative. People are saying, in very close proximity and with a baby monitor, that they may sometimes do it. We are arguing on a very smalll window of risk. Some will take no risk and some are prepared to take a tiny risk. Nobody is advocating taking big risks on a regular basis.
I don't think that makes any of us bad parents.
We can debate until the cows come home but you can take a horse to water and all that...
You can say that you've come to put the facts and stats on the table but the difference is I've lived it. I've had to break news to hysterical relatives and on the other side of the coin seen parents lives destroyed where they have been dragged through trials etc... The guilt they feel is insurmountable.
I do wonder though if your defensiveness stems somewhat from an amount of subconscious awareness that its not right thing to do. I don't want to get dragged into anything too personal though so I'll leave it at that.
thecakeisalie - I take your point. Yes, I would still defend the decision I made if something bad had happened. That does not mean I would not regret having done it.
My baby monitor was 2 way so you could talk to the baby.
So if toddler woke up terrified at 9pm (unlikely but lets say they did) terrified/confused/upset/crying, I would see the lights flashing on the monitor and my P could talk/sing to the child via the monitor for the 60-90 terrifying seconds it takes me to rush up a flight of stairs and get to the room.
Just like what would happen if we were staying at a friends place.
I imagine it would take no longer to get to toddler than if I was on the toilet.
I sometimes wonder if guilt is the reason people heavily defend their parenting decisions too - aimed at no one in particular I swear.
I try to take as few risks as possible because of the way I would feel in the event of something happening. Having said that I still drive a car, let my children go swimming and a whole host of situations where they could be harmed.
hamilton75 bless your little cotton socks! Yes of course I am subconciously aware that you with your judgemental and hysterical attitude are right and I am completely and utterly wrong. Would you like to call social services or shall I?
It seems to me what when people can no longer hang onto the argument for common sense, they lose it completely and turn to personal goading and highly emotive remarks instead. It's really no way to engage in a debate.
shewhowines yes, I would be happy with that but I don't think the opposing team are willing to show such reasonableness.
THERhubarb - all we can do now (with children who have got beyond the baby monitor stage and be trusted
ish to be left on their own) is ensure that our children have same approach to risk assessment that we have
I read the book Paranoid Parenting but even before then, I had asked my mum and dad to tell me if they ever saw any manifestation of paranoid parenting.
My dad once pointed out that when DB and I were young, if a young child were abducted on an errand to the local shops, then the outrage would be directed at the abductor. Nowadays, the ire would be directed at the parents who "let" them go out unaccompanied.
I don't think that shouting and swearing at "all of you" is fair really.
I get that using a baby monitor is different from not using one.
There may even be a time when I'd consider that action. (leaving child in room etc.. Bla bla)
But I stand by my earlier reasons for not wanting to do that.
I haven't said that anyone is a bad parent for leaving a child in the circumstances you've described.
Not everyone who would choose not to do it is hysterical and over protective, or judging you either.
We're pretty much all just mothers trying to do what's right for our most precious gifts. Sometimes our opinions differ. Debate is great.
But slinging insults back and forth (of neglect or pearl clutching) really is the darker side of mumsnet.
I wonder if such smugness and sheer arrogance shown by some posters comes from actually feeling less than confidence with their own parenting skills?
But that lowers myself down to their level, which is very below the belt and not very nice.
I see what you mean prettybird about paranoid parenting. I certainly wouldn't wish the way I think on anyone else. Sometimes I think the statement ignorance is bliss makes sense. Living life wondering 'what if' isn't healthy but there are times where risks do not need to be taken so I personally don't take them.
prettybird victim blaming is all over Mumsnet atm. If someone gets raped then she should never have put herself in that position. If a child is kidnapped, the parents were obviously neglectful.
It's a sign of the times.
And apologies for the shouting and swearing Emily but when posters deliberately ignore a major factor like a baby monitor for the convenience of their own arguments time and time again it does feel rather like you are banging your head against a brick wall.
The baby monitor makes ALL the difference yet they keep on harping about how the children are in a locked hotel room, all alone and potentially setting fire themselves whilst you are dining. Do you see how this would not be possible with a baby monitor?
Sorry Rhubarb I really wasn't being passive aggressive and aiming my post about guilt at you.
These threads often lead me to wonder if its guilt induced because people will argue for hours and lets face it second guessing yourself and guilt come as part of package of being a parent surely. I know I second guess myself and certainly wouldn't label myself arrogant.
Not everyone is trying to make this debate personal or degrading to other's.
thecakeisalie that's ok. We all carry some burden of guilt around, that's just what parents do.
I have to pick my kids up now from school before they are abducted or set fire to themselves. I would let them walk home alone but who knows what might happen to them!
I bet if someone suggested that a child who walked to and from school on their own and got hit by a car, was as a result of neglectful and irresponsible parents, there would be a huge kick-off and rightly so.
Getting kids to walk alone is a huge risk in today's world of fast cars and arrogant drivers yet the government encourage it as do other organisations. It's a great thing to do and it carries less risk than them being in a hotel room with a baby monitor once in a blue moon.
It really is ok to disagree though.
And I love a good swear .
The trouble with aibu is that I think any of us can become too focused on trying to have others see things the way we do.
That's when the insults start flying.
Anyway. I'm off to watch ds in the garden
and find a wedding thread to chill out over
I wonder what social services and nspcc take on all this is.
Just to say also those breathing monitors (which we used both times) are not fool proof as we were told while at A&E with both our boys (ds1 stopped breathing and the alarm alerted us to it at 6mths old, ds2 had breath holding related seizures at 10mths old onwards). We were told that a baby can still become ill while on a breathing monitor and you shouldn't rely on them over natural instinct. Lets face it technology isn't a human being with the ability to assess a situation.
For example if ds2 was having a seizure he would still be moving/twitching but not breathing - he also doesn't make much noise. I guess his medical history also affect our decision making. I still worry about him at 2 yrs old having an extended seizure in his room and us not knowing about it.
Actually, I never used a baby monitor - but that's 'cos I never used one at home either. With a child who never woke up, we never saw the point.
If he were crying loudly enough, we would hear it. He did it once, age 6 months, when he had a D&V bug.
The preference to think the best of people meant that when he was 13 months old, we were able to enjoy a lunch in an empty restaurant in South Africa, while the staff took him off to explore the kitchen, the grounds, not sure where else..... He went out of sight and we let them take him He ended up lording it on the bar counter, being fed crisps by adoring staff, both black and white.
Wow this is an angry thread! I wouldn't do it but don't care if others do. I haven't read much about Madeline but weren't her parents in a restaurant separate to the hotel?
*THEY. HAVE. A. BABY. MONITOR.
Which is what the couple in the OP had. A. BABY. MONITOR.*
No need to get defensive with all the shouting.
If a baby monitor is used as in the OP, no I still wouldn't do it. It's nothing to do with paranoia. It's called common sense.
You wouldn't leave passports, all your money, your home address and house keys out on full view in your hotel room, would you?
So why is it suddenly OK to do that with your children? No, nothing's likely to happen.Why willing to take the risk though?
If you had to vacate the premises quickly (eg) fire alarm. (Yes, yes, very unlikely to happen but it could.)
Exactly how quickly are you expecting to get upstairs in seconds if everyone else in the building is currently pouring DOWN the stairs and out of the building instead of up and in?
It's not scare mongering. It's common bloody sense.
See also the post about them waking up anywhere strange without you. Say, a holiday apartment "Ooooooh no strange room!" or a relative's house "Argh, strange room!"
Most people's houses are nowhere near as bloody big as hotels with hundreds of bedrooms (or maybe they are where you are.)
Slightly different scenario. Especially when there's not hundreds of other families/staff/ and many floors to navigate when need to get them.
If they are points already made, well it's obvious they need saying again then as some choose to ignore valid points.
Why take kids on holiday with you if you just leave them behind to enjoy going out? You take them with you. Or leave them at home. Not take them on holiday and then leave them by themselves.
Rhubarb you are just proving my point and the only person becoming hysterical would appear to be you. We both know that given my background your argument was never going to stand up. You are happy with your choice, I genuinely hope for your child's sake you are never in a position to regret it.
Rhubarb. I could be wrong, but I think you may be a foster parent.
If I were you, I would check with ss on what their policy is on this.
Fuck off! Foster parent?
Threatening me with ss?
I would say more but my post would be deleted.
This is getting out of hand. I am not a foster parent.
You want my name? You want to report me? Go ahead.
I find some of you posters are disgusting pathetic people.
You goad with your accusations that we do not love our children as much as you love yours. You goad by telling us how irresponsible and idioitic and moronic we are. You goad by suggesting we would be reported to the NSPCC (neither they nor social services have any policies on the use of baby monitors in hotel rooms) and then when we eventually bite, as anyone would do then they are subject to such continued personal abuse, you call us hysterical and tell us that our reaction proves your point.
This is not a debate. This is an exercise in goading and a shameful one at that.
I have answered every poster I could. I have answered the question about the lottery ticket and valuables and stated that it is not comparible as you'd have the baby monitor watching over them. That was not answered. I made the point about child abduction cases statistically going down, not up. That was not answered. The lottery and valuables point keeps coming up even though I have said more than three times now that you would need to ask that question with a baby monitor watching them for it to become close to comparable.
People have even continually made points about the McCann case which again is not comparable because again, there is the issue with the baby monitor which is a point again that is ignored. And the case was over 8 years ago.
Most of us have been reasonable and polite but there are a shameful few who goad and goad until they get what they were looking for - an emotional response which they then interpret as parental guilt which proves them right.
hamilton75 you will not get your reaction.
yam go back to detective school. I am not and never have been a foster carer. And fwiw there is NO policy about baby monitors and hotel rooms but good luck in trying to get social services, who have better things to do, to take you seriously.
If you want to continue to threaten me then go ahead. It says a lot about the type of people you are.
I'm sure you all love your kids as much as I love mine. I'm happy to leave it at that.
The valuables argument doesn't stack up. I'd leave my children in an unlocked car while I paid for fuel while taking my bag with me. It's not that I love them less, but the chances of there being a bag snatcher at any given place at one time must be about 10,000x higher than there being someone who is willing to snatch a child.
The danger is the gained from doing this a few times. Ah well they were ok that time in that tiny hotel that was just like our house to 'Oh it will be ok this time we're only down the stairs, and along a bit and we'll take the moniter (that doesn't do anything for you by the way, it's meant to be used as well as not instead of parents being present) to 'Ah it's only a flight of stairs, we'll jump in the lift - we still get a signal on the monitor - it'll be fine' and so on and so forth.
Rhubarb you're starting to sound quite bizzare. You keep making comparisions that are totally irrellevent.
Stealth someone said that I believe but your point, as valid as it is will be ignored and instead someone will make a different point which will have also already been answered and ignored. Our frustration with this will be interpreted as defensive and we will be told that we somehow love our kids less and that if social services only knew they would have been taken away from us.
There are some lovely posters on here today
You see ParadiseChick is one of them. She is guilty of goading and actually the comparisons I just made are all ones that have been made by herself and other posters. I was merely answering them.
You see how this thread works? They want a reaction so they can tell us how bizarre we sound because surely any mother whose parenting skills and love for her children has been questioned should still be capable of patiently answering every single critic and every single point no matter how ridiculous or how repetitive. We clearly have nothing better to do.
You're right, there are no laws about leaving children alone. It's not black and white, as an issue as a whole.
There are however guidelines which you can read up on here
As you will see a baby cannot possibly be left home alone safely.
Baby monitors never have been or never will be a substitute.
I think the defensive reaction prove
*Proves people aren't comfortable with the decisions they have made.
Yes because leaving a child home all by itself is comparible to leaving it in a hotel room? And I'm the one with irrelevant comparisons?
Do you really think that guidelines about leaving a child in a house alone is akin to in a hotel room with a baby monitor?
Yes you said that ParadiseChick they are not of course reactions to posters implying that I am a foster carer who ought to be careful if I don't want to be reported? Or that I love my children less than they do? Or that I'm irresponsible and neglectful? Oh no, they have to be defensive because of the decisions I have taken.
Thank you so much for your psychological analysis of my state. Please do tell why some posters react with such arrogance, superiority and downright nastiness? I'd love to know. Is it because they are not comfortable with the decisions they are still making?
If you wouldn't do it on home you sure as hell don't do it on holiday.
But people forget that all the time on holiday. They drink too much, carry to much cash, eat to much, forget to lock away their valuables... oh and willfully abandon their children.
I'm not those posters, I don't speak on anyone's behalf.
I'd like my DCs with me in case there was an emergency etc (paranoia!)but wouldn't judge someone sat downstairs with a baby monitor and its pretty harsh to threaten another poster with the SS!
A baby/toddler? NWIH and I am considered pretty relaxed when it comes to parenting by most.
My main fear would be a fire or just them waking up scared. Abduction would not have crossed my mind until the MM case happened to be honest. I actually never think about it.
I couldn't relax but that is just me, I certainly wouldn't see it as neglectful if another parent felt differently about it though.
Again ParadiseChick you are playing with the truth to fit your argument.
"But people forget that all the time on holiday. They drink too much, carry to much cash, eat to much, forget to lock away their valuables... oh and willfully abandon their children." Speak for yourself.
You gave a link to guidelines from the NSPCC on leaving children at home alone and you claim that this is relevant and a fair comparison to leaving them in a hotel room with a baby monitor?
Yet I am the bizarre one?
I think I have given you a fair hearing ParadiseChick. I have been patient and addressed all your points. I have not questioned your own parenting skills or your love for your children. I do not think that this conversation is going to go anywhere judging by your irrelevant comments and generalisations of holidaymakers.
YY to that Samu2, I wouldn't be able to relax rendering it pointless
"You can say that you've come to put the facts and stats on the table but the difference is I've lived it. I've had to break news to hysterical relatives and on the other side of the coin seen parents lives destroyed where they have been dragged through trials etc... The guilt they feel is insurmountable."
And these are all cases where a sleeping baby has come to harm while in a locked hotel room while their parents are downstairs in the same building with a baby monitor?
Probably not curlew but I doubt you will get an answer.
I know-but I though I'd ask the question!
Has there been a general agreement about the size of this hypothetical hotel?
It can't be compared to the McCann case as they weren't in the hotel with a baby monitor and they don't deserve what happened to them, no one does
Doesn't it really depends on your child though?
If you know yours is likely to wake up and be scared then it stands to reason you wouldn't want to leave him/her.
If yours sleeps like a log for hours then that is different.
The being stolen thing etc is hysteria imo.
Are you miles away from the baby or just downstairs where you can quickly reach them?
It would be reasonable to leave your child while you pop downstairs for a meal as that is not much different then going in your garden while your little one is sleeping... if the restaurant is further away then that would make a hell of a difference.
I am going to change my answer and say that yes, if it is just downstairs where I can easily reach them and mine sleep through the night I probably would do it. That is no different then going into the garden while yours is upstairs.
My parents did this at a hotel in the Lake District when I was about 3 and my brother about 8. There were no monitors in those days and they'd gone downstairs to eat in the restaurant? My bro and I heard a strange noise at the door. We thought someone was trying to get in so my bro getting v concerned and seeing the door handle keep moving called reception to tell them that we thought we had an intruder at the door. Lo and behold reception staff came up to check and disturbed a burglar who had stolen some things from the adjacent room. I dread to think what may have happened if the burglar had got into our room. Stupidly, at the time I recalled thinking it would be OK if the intruder got in cos my bro was taking karate lessons at the time and could protect us! Anyway, needless to say, it left my parents feeling very sheepish and they didn't do it again.also it was no dodgy hotel, it's afour star and one of the premier hotels on Windermere.
It seems now that posters are grasping at straws by changing the goal posts to babies being left home alone.
Merrymouse _ I asked the question about size and distance a while back and no one answered, it has also been asked to show a case with a baby or small child being taken or a something happening to them - again no answer though lots of muttering but nothing
ShakyStart whilst that must have been horrible, if baby monitors had been around your brother could have just called out and your mum and dad would have been there within minutes.
No-one, absolutely no-one has said that it is ok to leave a child in a hotel room completely alone without any security measures.
We are saying that to have a baby monitor negates some of the risk, turning it from a high risk decision to one which is manageable dependent on the circumstances.
My hypothetical hotel (and the real one I left DS alone in his room in) is a small one. I would not have a problem being effectively downstairs in someone else's house, which is what you are in a small hotel's dining room. I wouldn't do it if it would take me a while to get back to the room or in a large hotel, but that's just my feeling about it.
Sorry if you are not a foster parent.
I think you have talked on the foster board several times before in the past, so from what I can remember, I thought you probably, on balance, were.
Was her baby monitor a video one?
No, I am not. Do not presume to know me please.
My mother was and I have contributed to one thread on the foster parents board.
Get your facts right next time you try to threaten someone. And fwiw I think social services would laugh in your face.
It was my Health Visitor who suggested using a baby monitor in a hotel room to us.
I have children to see to now. Those neglected ones.
This thread has left a very bad taste in my mouth. I would never like to meet some of you in real life.
To TheRhubarb, just letting everyone know about my experience didn't make a judgment either way. Just highlighting the types of situations that can happen that we may not expect!
When we've travelled (DH, me and toddler) we book adjoining rooms or a suite in which one room can be closed to the others. He sleeps in the adjoining room (door to corridoor locked) and we sleep in the main room. Then we can get him down at 7.30 in his quiet and darkened room while we can close the door and relax, watch tv, make noise, have room service or a takeaway etc until we want to sleep. When we're ready to be quiet and sleep I open the door between the rooms so we can hear him through the night or when he wakes in the morning.
It does mean phoning and making a request for special rooms like this rather than booking online. Sometimes it's been really expensive and other times it's been the same cost as any other room. Either way I think we just accept going away now is more expensive than it was pre-DS.
If you look at my posts carefully, you will see that I am not threatening you.
If you look at them closely, I was advising you, that if you were a foster parent, to check things out with ss.
A reasonable suggestion, dont you think?
I was on the same thread you talk about Rhubarb, about your mother.
And you and I, and maybe a couple of other posters, were advising another potential foster carer not to foster too many children, or something like that.
In the interests of balance - I've never offered a listening or babysitting service as I've managed largely corporate hotels with weekend leisure business so it isn't really the market, it wouldn't be worth the paperwork and extra recruitment.
I've never known a problem whenever parents have left a child in their room to have dinner or at a wedding. The issues I liste were when parents were present either in the room or an adjoining one.
I just wouldn't do it, and I'm sure my hotel knowledge leads me to that conclusion. We all assess risk differently - hence why I love riding motorbikes and diving and somebody else would say no to those things because they assess the risks involved differently.
I've done it once. I didn't like doing it, though I knew rationally the chances of anything bad happening were minimal. DD was just turned 2, she and I were invited to a 40th birthday party in the hotel. She had lots of fun at the party and then I put her to bed about 9ish, staying with her till she fell asleep in the cot, then went downstairs for a couple of hours for the rest of the party. She was fine. I think the chances of a fire starting are fairly remote, aren't they? Compared, that is, to the number of terrible things that could happen in the course of daily life.
Rhubarb. If you post on MN, then to a certain extent we do "know" you. Or in this case, part "know" you.
It is up to posters how much personal stuff they put on here.
My memory has much improved thanks to MN
though as you can see, it doesnt always get things right 100%
I dont think people think you are bad at parenting THERhubarb, if that is what is bothering you.
Yanbu. An incredibly stupid thing to do.
The 2 proven abuse cases, yes (albeit different hotels). Most of the suspected ones I can't recall but some yes.
The accidental deaths/serious accidents again yes in most cases to my knowledge (some cases where the parents have insisted they were still in the room - complete bull).
I worked for one health trust and one local authority, I'm sure the same sort of scenario is repeated throughout country/world.
So there have been proven cases of abuse of a baby left a locked hotel room with parents downstairs with a monitor? Somebody managed to abuse a baby in complete silence?
And this didn't make the news because?
Ditto the accidental deaths- you say the parents say they were in the room- you are assuming they were downstairs with a baby monitor. Why didn't it make the news?
Curlew had again you're evading questions and demanding proof, denying incidents - why is that? Why are you always still keen to imply hysterics where there are more and deny the existence of incidents?
It seems like a hobby of yours.
I'm not evading questions as far as I know.
I just find it hard to believe that babies could be abused in locked hotel rooms with their parents listening on a monitor from downstairs. And if it did happen, I find it even harder to believe that it didn't make the news.
Tons of horrible stuff doesn't make the news. I'm thinking of one local incident recently. It was vile but it only made the crappy local news paper, never saw it on the telly or anywhere else.
So it's entirely possible for things to slip under the radar.
And again, it's not about the abuse is it?
Yes there have been cases as I have mentioned several times now. One at least did make the news that I'm aware of. Certain cases can have reporting restrictions that prevent this in order to avoid identifying the children involved.
You are twisting my words slightly about the accidents. I have not assumed they had monitors. In some instances I have been told by the parents themselves or colleagues that they had them. On other occasions the parents have insisted they were in the room when the evidence suggests otherwise and sometimes this had led to admission later that they were out but had a monitor. I was not involved in the legal side of the accidents only the health side.
I used to live in the US and there were a fair few prosecutions of child neglect of those that left their children alone in hotel rooms whether they came to any harm or not.
5 minutes on Google searching news shows 2 cases (of children be ing left) in the US reported in the past 24 hours.
Near misses don't get reported.
And again, it's not about abuse.
To start massive caveat - it depends on the hotel. I would NOT leave the building.
I have to add. I have done and will do it. Wasn't liking curlew getting a flaming on her own.
Eurodisney hotel they even provide you with baby monitors.
One poster has said the reasons she hasn't done it are as
"The top reasons are probably
Wouldn't feel right
Wouldn't be able to relax
Worried DS would be unsettled in unfamiliar surroundings
Concern over DS getting out of cot and having some sort of accident
Concern over fire in a place where I don't know they layout as well as home"
Well.... To answer those concerns:
- it felt right
-I could relax
- DS incapable of climbing out of grobag/cot
- we did a fire risk assessment. Checked stairs and access ways. Also when a fire alarm goes off, without fail people spend the first 10 seconds in a public building, saying is this a fire alarm, is this for real, should we do anything blah blah. We would not... We just run back... Also fires are terribly common....not.
Am prepared to be shot down in flames for this, but just couldn't let other people take the heat alone.
Ps have just read this post to my Dh who said actually don't you remember the fire alarm went off when we went ski-ing. I ran 3 floors in 15 seconds. (He is pretty fit). Also what would the babysitter do, if the fire stops us getting in to his room, it would also stop the babysitter leaving the room...
So you were 3 stories away?
If my baby was stuck in a room due to a fire I'd rather be stuck in there with him but fires can happen in the home so again it is the size of the hotel and what you feel comfortable with
paradise can you link to the cases of children having something happen to them in a hotel room then when left on their own with or without a monitor and either in the US or the UK - what was the something that happened to them?
As I googled but could find children being left and parents prosecuted (I know the laws are different in the different states) - but not children being left and having something happen.
what is a near miss? Is this when someone gets caught doing something to a child or when a child has something happen to them in a hotel room on their own. Do all near misses not get reported and if so how do we know about near misses?
I've done it, in a hotel chain that markets itself as not just family friendly but specifically for families (advertises on here) and has a baby-listening service. When we got there, we realised they'd booked us into the old stable block - separate building, OK only a few yards away, but still.
I felt really uncomfortable but kind of obliged to try it out as we'd booked it and I felt somehow fussy and ridiculous not going for dinner given it was family-friendly etc. etc. etc. Can't recall how old ds was but older baby/young toddler IIRC.
Was very glad we'd got our own baby monitor but equally worried it would interfere with everyone else's and pick up a completely different child! And dithered about whether to lock the door of the room, given it occurred to me fire was more likely than a mad baby-snatcher. (Not that ds could have got out on his own but we/fire fighters would have stood more chance of getting in to an unlocked room.)
Hurried dinner* and rushed back to the room. ds was fine but I never did it again - self catering all the way, may have cramped our style a bit but hey, it's no fun going out if you are worried about how safe your child is.
I can see how the McCanns and other parents were lulled into a potentially false sense of security though. If everyone else is doing it, you feel as if you are fussy and PFB if you are reluctant. And the chances of your child being snatched are very remote.
* Didn't mind hurrying dinner as the food was rubbish - hotel publicity claimed grown on site/local produce yadda yadda yadda but clearly the chef didn't like vegetarians very much!
paradisechick just to respond to your points re my earlier post.
I don't put going out for a meal with my husband ahead of ds' s basic needs. I ate a neal downstairs while ds was asleep in a room upstairs. 10mo so can't get out, monitor with pressure mat so I can hear if he wakes up or the child snatcher decides to break in.
I feel much more relaxed doing this than I would leaving him with a babysitter from an agency which is our only other alternative.
Yes we were 3 floors. But fortunately our very expensive baby monitor + iPhone app (which is v good by the way) was telling us what was going on.)
Also rhubarb, from what I have read of some of your posts, I concur. I am now hiding under the table with full body armour on... ;-))
I should add I am currently in the garden of a town house with only one stair route up to the bedroom floor... Shudders ;-))
We get a suite with seperate childrens bedroom and order room service dinner.
Or organise a babysitter in advance.
My biggest worry is one of the DC waking up and getting out of the room / harming themselves within the room itself eg. Running a bath and drowning rather than being kidnapped etc.
At least no one is admitting to having a meal outside the hotel!
weakest - that sounds very civilised but sadly my budget doesn't stretch to a suite, so self-catering it is!
Near miss as in not reported. Like the baby getting out of bed, getting injured but it not being linked to being left alone.
Because as soon as something happens and you weren't there, you're in the shit.
I had a meal outside the hotel. Can't remember how far away it was but I was away for two hours. Don't think it was that far away.
No one at the hotel called the police or social services. They were happy to offer a listening service. I can't remember now if they physically went in to check on her. She was about nine months old and sleeping soundly for about 12 hours every night.
My child lives and thrives to this day.
I don't know why yams is still addressing me?
And ParadiseChick is clearly going to be rude and obnoxious to anyone who disagrees with her or calls her up on her ridiculous comparisons - like a child in an empty house versus a child in a hotel room with a monitor.
Cases of abandoned children are usually in homes where their parents have gone out partying.
I think people are letting their imaginations get carried away with them.
Statistically your child is proven to be more at risk from the babysitter. I wonder how many cases I could link to if I Googled that?
The risks of something untoward happening to your child in a hotel room with a monitor transmitting every little sound to you - or even better a video monitor where you can see your child - is negligable when you weigh up the risks:
a) kidnap. Child abduction by a stranger is so rare that people are still mentioning the McCann case almost 8 years on. Most kidnaps are family or friends.
b) burglary. If you have a monitor on then you would hear if anyone entered the room and would be up there before that thief saw their opportunity to steal a child from a hotel room.
c) fire. Yes this is a risk but hotels are safer than most domestic homes as they have strict fire regulations and you WOULD be allowed to rescue your child. My MILs home is more of a fire risk than a hotel and yet I doubt I would be called irresponsible for allowing the dcs to stay there.
d) aliens. We haven't covered this yet.
Every situation is different and some parents might decide not to use the baby monitor because the room is too far from the restaurant, or the hotel is too busy with people, or they feel that the room is not secure enough. But if the hotel is decent, if the room is close enough, if it's quiet, if security is good (many hotels have CCTV cameras) then based on that situation a parent might well decide that the risk of kidnap, burglary or fire is negligable with a good baby monitor acting as lookout.
That does not warrant a phone call to social services or the accusation that they don't love their kids or are moronic, idiots or any of the other terms of abuse hurled. In fact most of us who have explained our actions have done so as reasonably, as calmly and as patiently as possible whilst being subject to all levels of goading and abuse.
Why would a case even come to light of nothing had happened. The fact the parents were caught and charged implied something did happen because of nothing happened nobody would have known the child has been left.
edam sadly it's a rare occasion in this household these days!
That's good Spero I wouldn't wish anything else
My friend's child once got out of her bed, opened her window and fell out head first. The first they knew of it was when they saw her fall past the window. Thankfully she was ok, she must have bounced!
Would that have happened with a baby monitor? No, as they would have heard her moving around.
Did the police or social services get involved? No, it was an accident that could have happened to anyone. They didn't know she could open the window.
Many hotel windows don't open all the way because of safety issues.
Still waiting to hear a reason why a meal is so important your happily leave your baby alone for?
In terms of statistically likely harm to befall my child, she is most at risk in my care if
a)I drive her in a car
b)I have a boyfriend
a) happens very frequently. b) is very unlikely for me. But not for lots of others!
a meal in and of itself means nothing. 'A meal' when it is a chance to catch up with a much loved friend who is rarely seen, a chance to step outside an exhausting and lonely role for just 2 hours in nine months, to return to the (sometimes) drudgery and thanklessness of many child rearing tasks... is a wonderful thing.
By all means, don't do it if you don't feel comfortable.
But how about calling the police and trying to retrospectively report me, see if they share your outrage? I think it was a hotel in Devon, could probably dig up name and address and date if pushed.
I want to see a link to these two US cases so we can see how old the children were; where they were left; for how long, etc.
ParadiseChick seems to think that leaving a child alone in a hotel room with a baby monitor is just the same as leaving a child alone in a house with no monitoring equipment whatsoever and nothing will tear her away from making this point time and time again, despite it not being comparable in any way whatsoever.
I agree with you OP.
But I was never left alone as a child when my family were in holiday so it's not something I grew up thinking was the norm either. Even in the early 90's my parents were very against the idea.
And if that has happened in a hotel could you imagine the consequences?
You're pinning a lot on a cheap gadget. And again, but no one's answering, how relaxing is a meal where you're looking or listening to a monitor? Our is it not the case that the sense of security grows, the wine flows and you pay less and less attention? The noise in the restaurant increases gradually, you don't even notice.
Paradise - a meal is important because I didn't stop being a person when I had a child.
Could you relax whilst out Spero? Genuine question not trying to be snarky
A monitor is not a substitute for supervision. Ever.
Spero I am also happy to dig out the dates, places and times when I've been in a hotel and left the children with a monitor. I would be interested to hear what the police have to say when time-wasters call them to report us both.
Yes. I was relaxed and happy. Otherwise I would not have done it.
But then I have always been able to put my child in a cot, shut the door and go downstairs and watch TV quite happily.
I know lots of female friends who couldn't bear to do even that.
Maybe I am a man after all.
Yup, I am happy to turn myself in for questioning. I would also be interested to know what the police response would be. So would some hotels I imagine.
1Veryhungrycaterpillar let me answer that.
First night with a very tired, very narky child screaming and having to put up with filthy looks from other diners whilst we try to stuff food in ourselves. Not relaxed at all.
Second night with baby happily asleep, baby monitor on table, able to hear every little creak and with us checking every half hour - yes we were able to relax.
I could relax. I have had nice dinners. They are not rowdy or wine fuelled but mainly cos DS gets up at 5.30am...
This thread is staggering. Christ.
Neither did I funnily enough.
Holidays did however change and spending hours having into each other's eyes, whilst of course diligently watching a monitor, just doesn't happen on holiday.
It does happen at other times, when provisions, over and above a monitor, have been made.
Spero do you think the hotels which offer baby sitting services realise that according to ParadiseChick and others they are condoning child abuse?
Some friends of ours never use a babysitter, they just leave a monitor with their next door neighbours. I guess it's similar. Not something we would do, but other people assess risk differently.
THERhubarb, I asked Spero because she went for a meal in a restaurant outside the hotel
Let's do a quick fun test - which side of the debate do you think has been the most abusive?
Let's ponder on that for a moment shall we?
The bottom line is, unless I am going to be arrested, tried and convicted for what I did, and what many others do using a service offered by hotels, some posters are just going to have to accept that society does not yet march in step with their views about what does or does not constitute child abuse.
Sorry caterpillar, but in the end her reasons where pretty much the same as mine
You seem to perceive that you have had dogs abuse here. I don't see that.
Just pointing out that saying I've done it and all was fine, is a bit like saying you smoke near your child, overheat it, let it sleep on its front, etc and it was fine.
Cot death is also a very small risk, but when it happens it is devastating, as would a serious accident to a baby in a hotel room.
In that sense, I'd relax more about a baby than a toddler, because toddlers can move around.
In a similar way, a one off meal is less dangerous than a regular event where the baby/toddler is left alone.
But the truth is that bad things can happen, even with the parents watching or sleeping in the same room.
We can do our best to reduce the risks, that's all.
It is NOT illegal, you CANNOT be prosecuted for it and many hotels in fact offer it as a paid service.
So what we choose to do within the confines of the law is nobody else's damn business. Pity they can't accept that.
Lay off the drugs dear.
I don't think it's abuse and I haven't said anything of the sort, I couldn't do it but would never call people neglectful, selfish etc
Anyone fancy phoning the nspcc and asking for their stance?
Society does dictate what is and isn't acceptable. Just no one had had the band's to take this issue yet so it will be treated like the home alone information.
Fine as long as you get away with it. When the shit hits the fan you're getting covered.
It's a turn off phrase rhubarb. You seem to think you've been subjected to abusive comments, I've not witnessed that.
It is great that so many of you feel so passionately about the welfare of children. I only wish that this passion was shared by all parents, the police will probably be more concerned chasing the parents who are passed out drunk whilst the oven and hob are left on and 3 children under 5 are unsupervised in the kitchen - case of mine last week.
But I do think we as a society are piss poor at risk analysis.
Do you eat your meals sat next to your sleeping baby? I don't leave my baby alone any more than someone who eats their meal in their dining room does.
Ahhh it's not about "getting away with it" it is a risk assessment - which is actually what SS do all the time. Their job is to assess risk and which kids are or are not at risk.
That's one tiny hotel!
Does this all come dowm to statistical risk.
Say we knew that the risk of something untoward happening to a child was 1/30, ie 1 in 30 times that someone did that, something untoward would happen, would the posters still do it?