To think you can't judge a child by their name??(413 Posts)
Would you judge a child by their first name?
Katie Hopkins on this morning was saying how she judged the children her children play with by their names.
There's a YouTube video but can't link it
I am frequently told I do not seem to "match" my name, so may be she'd have trouble deciding how to judge me
Judging someone based on their name seems rather nasty to me.
No, but I might judge the parents. For example, if I met a child with a really ludicrous name (I met a little 4 year old called Thierry Henry!) I would think the parents were quite selfish. Think of the amount of times you have to tell someone your name!
However, Katie Hopkins' examples of names she would judge were absolutely normal and not harmful to the child. Just names that she considers beneath her for whatever reason. Complete and utter snob and her argument completely failed when she said she didn't like Geographical names but her own child is called India. Idiot.
I thought that, but it was the way she tried to defend the name by saying it was a family thing
You can. And there is a whole scientific project done about it a bit of which is included in a book called Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell..
It is a v.e.r.y interesting book and the section of names specifically was freaky and creepy in equal measures..
It's bonkers. I don't care how many projects are done on it.
She seemed unhinged when I watched her. I was at work but my client had it on and was outraged too.
Still it gets us talking
I think you can certainly judge the parents.
I hold my hands up high & come clean for being a name snob...sorry
It kills me to admit to agreeing to anything Katie Hopkins says!!
lol @ India
Whatever your study says, mamatoo, the statistically insignificant sample of kids your child is going to be coming across makes the idea that you can make 'quick and dirty' decisions on this basis laughable. Coupled with the fact that you don't need a quick or dirty solution to this, however fucking 'busy mum' you're feeling, just makes KH look inefficient, never mind a snob.
Some names do seem to "go with" certain families though - you can often (although not always) tell quite a lot about people by the names they give their children, and certain names are very evocative. It must be quite hard for someone with a name that people assume carries certain connotations, if they are completely different iykwim.
Think Tarquin, Jemima, Dwayne, LaToya, Kylie, Chelsea, Hugo, or "Sleb Weird" names - the Geldofs, or Apple/Bronx/the Beckhams and so on.
Of course there are names that are (I can't think of the word) "ordinary" and don't date or place the person too - Daniel, Michael, Sophie, Ellie, Sarah, that sort of thing iyswim. You can't tell a thing about the person from their name.
This has already had a thread. However i can't help thinking there wouldn't be such angst on the baby naming thread on musnet if there wasn't something in it.
I chose a name for my son knowing I was going to be a lone parent. I gave him a very traditional, non common (not in top 100) and most upper middle class name I could. To be fair no one ever thinks we spent the first two years of his life in a hostel for the homeless. Had I called him Tyler, Josh or Kieran they perhaps might of?
We specifically chose our DSs names as we felt they didn't give anything away regarding their upbringing or background. We felt it was important that they wouldn't be judged when people met them or saw their names written down (on a CV for example), as whether it is right or wrong, it happens.
It is unfair to give your child a ludicrous name such as Fifi or Apple and then expect them to go out in the world and get a job and be taken seriously. Although tbh the people with those names probably won't ever have to get a job.
YANBU. Or at least that's what I always tell my DCs Hermintrude, Tristram and Chardonnay.
I gave my children names I liked.
I didn't feel the need to make people think I was MC.
Ive often been told that ds1 has a very middle.class name. According to the class definitions we were told at college, I am not middle class (im under class apparently) and wasn't bought up in a middle class family.
However. His name is lovely, and suits him perfectly.
Ds2 has a more common name, no idea what people think of it, but again its lovely and suits him.
My DCs have totally ordinary unremarkable names, and we have been know to change the youngest three to Aubrey, Ptarquin and Carmencita-Jabonica for displays of Loud Parenting in Public simply to amuse ourselves and laugh like drains at the funny looks we get from other people sometimes
(Aubrey is a stuffed panda, Ptarquin is a pterodactyl, and C-J is a ragdoll that tend to go everywhere with us and the DCs are ever so good at answering to them )
not so much names but certain spelling I might
sophie fine; sophy equally fine; but sofy would cause a raised eyebrow
DH's name is pretty naff, the Jayden of its day, the male equivalent of Sharon or Tracy. I've lost count of the number of times people have said "He's not what I expected," or "He's not a typical xxxxxx" when they meet him. My mum has admitted she was disappointed I'd got a boyfriend with such a name as it was embarrassing to tell her friends!
He is judged, but is doing his bit to make people think twice . He was dead set on giving our children names that say nothing about them, that would be unremarkable for a miner or a brain surgeon.
My name is definitely more "posh" than I am or my upbringing. My DPs didn't choose it for social status reasons, they chose it because they like it.
Katie Hopkins would have hated me if I had been "chosen" to be her child's friend! --Common as muck, me.--
I have tried to choose "classless" names for my DCs.
IMVHO it is very important to be able to get on with everyone, regardless of their income/class/whatever and I really couldn't give a flying fuck if my DCs are friends with the daughter of a Managing Director or a cleaner. Both are fine!
I have a good friend called Kristyl. Awfully common. But she's not common in the least and has a high flying finance career. I think her name works against her, but it's not fair to judge her on it.
But WTF were her parents thinking!!!?
ShatnersBassoon -ha that made me think of my last boyfriend.
Rather well to do parents had given him a wonderfully "artistic" first name and they had a very "niace" surname and his middle name...Trevor.
MaMattoo I think the names analysis is in Freakonomics; did he repeat the analysis or extend it in Outliers - must get a copy.
But the whole thing is just silly. Josh has been suggested here as a name to be avoided; but it's an absolutely standard and unremarkable name among Jewish communities. In fact, until this moment, it had never occurred to me that anyone would object to it on some kind of class grounds. Similarly Kieran or Tyler may have certain connotations for stereotypical middle Englanders, but that doesn't necessarily mean they have the same connotations for everyone.
(Disclaimer: my dd2 has a 'Fifi' type name)
Not Kirsty. KRISTYL. As in crystal, but spelt with a k and an i, and a y in the wrong place. Dreadful.
You shouldn't judge by names, no , but I and my colleagues know that children who go by the name Joshua are more likely than not to be "challenging". Even my class teacher, whose own son is called this,says the same and actually wishes she hadn't called her son that name.(Even though he is actually a lovely boy!)
I didn't choose either of my daughter's names. I live in hope we are not judged for them. I make a start by not judging myself.
Sorry, I can't read tonight.
Kristyl isn't that bad.
Maybe they were Dynasty fans...?
It really shouldn't make a difference but it obviously does.
A GF of mine was mortified to reveal her new man's name was Trevor. But all her friends soon came to realise that his name was one of the better things about him. He was a really arrogant lawyer!
I think kiwiinkits is objecting to Kristy not Kirsty.... Kristy is not 'common' I don't think. I have never met anyone called Kristy, a few called Christy/Christie. It is most often thought of an an American name. It is also the name of a university senior lecturer in chemistry... Me!
Why would you judge someone by their name anyway, it's not like they chose it.
I never knew such snobbery existed about my name... I shall go and crack open a can of Stella and eat fish and chips from the wrapper whilst sat on a couch in my front garden a la shameless...
No, you can't judge the children, but you can certainly judge their parents.
Snap, miffy-I came on to say that and you had said it!
Funnily enough i work as a SW and there are names that crop up time and time again amongst clients. I can't possibly tell you what they are for fear your DC have those names too.
Kristyl has, it seems, the problem that people commonly think it's a typo!
Are you so stupid that you would judge someone by their name though.
I have a Joshua, and a teacher friend said he was the complete opposite to most Joshua's she knows.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Hopkins is one of the most embarrassingly banal sur names I can think of. Not sure my own is all that distinguished but it's no wonder she won't judge sur names with Hopkins on her passport!
my children have family names so say more about my ancestors that me
Not that I would give it a thought. Your sur name is your sur name, the end.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
You would get a shock If you judged my DDs nice MC name.
Because nice MC girl she ain't.
My ds has a poshish name-Guy but it was after a character I loved in a children's book. Dh wanted him to be Chad so I think he got off lightly. He is a quite successful businessman now so has grown into his name :-)
There are names I really dislike. However that does not make me dislike the parents or the child.
That's just bonkers.
I hate to admit that yes I think SOME names you can judge what "class" someone is from. I personally couldnt give a shit about this stuff though. I have never once said to DD "ooh you're not going to that kids party because he's dead common!" firstly I'd be a massive hypocrite and secondly a total dickhead to behave that way. I have no idea if the names my kids are considered chavvy or posh and I don't care. I like them, they seem to as well.
Katie fucking Hopkins is a troll though. She is wheeled out to cause offense and get people talking. I have nothing against either of the names she has given her daughters (the other is called Poppy I think) but c'mon, neither one of those names screams higher class or posh. Both are pretty well used and will probably date quickly.
God I couldn't imagine agonising over what people would think of our class when picking a name. We chose one we liked for dd (despite being told repeatedly that it was "chavvy"). It does concern me that some people may judge and treat dd in a different way to an Ophelia but that could happen in reverse with a less "chavvy" name anyway so you can't win. Its a shame I won't know who is judging us based on names. It would make the sadder people in life much easier to avoid!
angus, I love the pre-wedding apology! My mum is a brazen snob, and makes no apologies for being ashamed of her son-in-law's name - she and he have a running joke of her calling him Jonty in public
We all make judgements about people based on their names, whether we thin we do or not, or whether we intend to or not! If we didn't, then why would we even put much thought into the names we choose for our children?
However, we can all change our judgement after meeting the person.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
If you were to guess the socio economic background of a child going by their name only, you'd probably get it 70% right though wouldn't you.
That's not judging, its just being aware of what names are popular in different sections of society. If you decide to exclude a child from eg a party purely because of their name, well that's another matter.
The poshest bloke I know is called Paul.
I never gave a thought to the fact that other people might judge my class when I chose my children's names.
It honestly never entered my head.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
That women is an idiot!
My DS has a name that has been described as "chavvy" on mumsnet and has been listed on that " teacher's naughty list" that was doing the rounds a while ago.
Katie Hopkins would not allow her kids to be friends with my DS and it would be their loss as he is gorgeous,polite, well behaved , well spoken and very intelligent and top of his class ( sorry but he really is and I don't care if I'm boasting!)
We didn't choose his name as he is adopted. It really puzzles me that he ( and us as a family) will be judged because of his first name. It's mad.
No matter what he achieves in life people like KH will forever write him off as a low class "chav".
Fair enough usual, but do you have any awareness of the fact that names can often reflect social class?
My DSs are 27 and 20. Both have names which were unusual in a nice way when they were born but are common as muck now. How would they be judged - their names have gone downmarket over the last twenty years .
I think I already knew/feared that i'd end up a single mother, so I gave them classy names (not snobby names), so that we wouldn't be stereotypes. one of the women who was the snobbiest at my dc's school has a dc called Taylor. She can only aspire to being a snob though, she is moneyist.
The poshest (I mean actually posh) man I've dated was called 'Kevin'.
I am cheating though, as how would KP know not to let her children play with mine if they met!
Katie Hopkins is a fucking baffoon.
Doesn't like 'location' names yet has called her daughter India. Which, by all accounts, isn't a location.
She's just a troll. I'd say stop giving her airtime but each time they do, she is real value for money in the entertainment stakes
I would never judge a child by his/her name. Certain names do have certain connotations though. I work in a primary school and most of my colleagues would admit to having a preconceived stereotype in mind when they hear certain names, however these are so often proved wrong that I don't even know why they still exist.
I've lost count of the number of times the Jayden, Kai, Kelsey, Kyran or Tayla in the class have turned out to be the most intelligent, hardworking and well behaved child in the class; whereas the Alexander, Hugo, Florence or Frances have turned out to be naughty and disruptive.
I'm aware that some people spend far too much time worrying about class.
I know people judge on names, depends what they do with that judgement really.
If they dismiss someone as lower class or beneath them based on a name it makes them idiots in my book.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Of course I know not everyone thinks like that.
I don't need your bloody sarcasm either.
My husband and I have what might be termed Middle class names, whilst being from solidly working class backgrounds. DH Brother has a "posh" name, my sisters full name is so unusual no one can place it socially. Then she opens her mouth and a good imitation of a fishwife emerges. <sigh>
That's not what I asked though usual. Do you feel that names are no indicator of social class, and that Beyonce, Charisma, Jaidee-Lee etc are as likely to come from middle class or upper class parents as they are from working class ones? Has this been your experience?
I used to know someone with 3 children who all had unusual names. I can't actually remember them but it was things like Mozart or Einstein and I think one was a Greek God's name, basically famous surnames of very famous people in history or Greek myths but used as their first names. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when they moved house and registered their children at the doctor's. I think anyone meeting them would judge them just a little bit.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
I'd say most people probably do form an unconscious opinion on names, not to say that they don't try to judge the child though as everyone knows you can't always judge a book by it's cover. My kids have really popular quite non descriptions names. But we had to feel comfortable with these names given our WC backgrounds. They were the only names that we both liked, it wasn't an ambitious, trying to rise above our class decision. Sad to see that one of the names has been mentioned here as a 'naughty' troublesome name so maybe we have lumbered him with millstone that people will judge him on.
That's not even the fucking point, so what if a name has certain connotations to some of us, and makes us form probably often wrong pre-judgements on someone.
We all might do that, even a little bit.
But the real vileness of that fucking, soulless, TV troll is actually restricting her children from forming friendships with other children based on their name. That in my book is a hop, skip, and a jump away from judging someone and thinking you're better than someone because of their race, creed, or the colour of their skin.
Abominable, and it saddens me she's even given a platform to air her hate-filled views. Someday she'll have nowhere to turn because she's decided 3/4ths of the population aren't good enough. And she'll be responsible for preventing her children from developing into well rounded people with friendships from all walks of life.
yuck London, yuk Brooklyn oh your daughter's India oh yes that's different, because it's not India the location...
did you see how defensive she got about the name while at the same time spouting all that about other people - and her face when holly said at the end to stop. Brilliant!
But as much as it pains me to say it, I think a lot more people are like her than would admit it if you asked them.
I don't know whether it's truly some stupid class thing or whether it's part of the insanity that is the Primary School Parent* - an extension of the school gate club and the cliques and the competition about reading levels and the regression to a 12 year old
*Not to be confused with a parent of a child of primary school age
There's a body of psychological study on this (taught to HR types, as well a psychs) which shows again and again that people do make assumptions because of names - just as they do for anything else that is a first impression. It's so widespread it can be considered inherent. And those who claim they make no judgements are shown time and time again to be doing exactly that.
That's why it's taught to HR, BTW, so they can recognise that it's what everyone does; and then recognise it, design systems that minimise impact etc.
I don't this I've ever seen the individual being criticised on this thread. But she appears to have taken a basic, much researched psych area and is trying to sensationalise it.
She is a prat
DH has a fairly classless name (Jonathan)
I have an 80s name (Samantha)
DS is Tristan which has been called both posh and "chavvy" on here. I understand in America Tristan is as "chavvy" as it gets
He can play he Tylers or Tarquins, I don't care. But if he hangs around with people as vapid, attention seeking and dreadful as Katie Hopkins I'll be having a word.
I think she has a point. Some names concern me.
eg if my child brought home a poppy or an India, especially if their mum was Katie...
My daughter is Isabella, we call her Bella for short. Apparently she's going to be ugly!
I don't judge what people call their children, I know a few parents who have called their children slightly different names and they are the nicest people
Her argument was terrible. Loved the opposing lady's opening comment of 'that was snort worthy'. Her face when challenged about her own children's names, you can tell she's such a bully! I have a beautiful niece called India and I just think oh that's her name, nothing else. I don't care where the origin of it came from but I do feel sorry for my SIL now with this fuss out there, taking something away from it. My DS has an unusual name so I could never judge anyone. Ok some people go a little mad with the names but it's a free world.
We all make judgments in life, its part of being human.
Names do say a lot about people, if mis-spelt, celeb names etc then you do conjour up an image or idea of the parents.
Am surprised at the number of people who choose to name their child a "posh" name on the basis they want people to believe they are a higher social class. I didnt think class types were that relevant but obviously they are in some areas.
You can judge the parent because of the name - you may be right, you may be wrong.
To stop your child playing with that child is awful imo.
As for her comments on the name Tyler, she can fuck off. The one Tyler I know had teenage parents who are "working class" - she would not give them the time of day. They are wonderful. Unlike KH.
I just watched this! i am speechless. she is a poisonous ugly snob! why do they continue to give her air time!!!!!!!
Dontmeanto, I wouldn't be surprised if she allows her children to play with whoever they like, away from the journalists.
She's being paid to come out with rubbish like this. She needs to cause a stir and to make herself look ridiculous or they won't keep buying into her.
She doesn't have to believe a word of it herself.
What I'm trying to say is you can probably guess what "class" someone is by their name but how does that determine worth?
People ARE judged on name... All the time! If they weren't then I wouldn't have changed mine and I wouldn't get comments like 'ooh I'd have never have thought you were a [insert previous name]'
Unfortunately for Katie Hopkins - my son has a name on her approved list and I am even a progressional... I can hold our own in her quick & dirty judgement - he's turned out nice, on time, does his homework but yet I am single parent, my boy has ASD & presents such challenging behaviour that most teachers he has have grey hairs named after him. Just goes to prove you can't judge a book by its cover!
Their are names that you hear that you know a teachers heart will sink on hearing - it's a fact of life, history of how we named children historically but openly discriminate against a child on the basis of perceived class - well I thought THAT was against the law ?
Or did I dream the Equality Act existed?
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
We have middle class friends who have adopted and who have two delightful girls called Brittney and Chelsea. Mum says that she has been asked many times, by people who don't know the girls history why they chose such common names.
I would agree with that TSC,people all make assumptions about names whether they will admit it or not.
<<currently trying to gently dissuade DS and DiL from calling DGC Paris>>
The video can been seen here. Just to warn, it does get the hackles up a touch. She doesn't judge surnames as that would be wrong, however Katie also said she didn't like celebrity names like Apple or based on places like Brocklyn alongside those common names.
Philip Scofield then pointed it her daughter was named India
My next child will be named Lambrini, just to keep those pesky Katie types away.
Funnily enough i work as a SW and there are names that crop up time and time again amongst clients. I can't possibly tell you what they are for fear your DC have those names too
That's because ( as you should know) you are more likely to recive referrals from certain socioeconomic and ethnic groups in built up urban areas. This does not mean that these groups are more likely to abuse,neglect children or experance DV(should be a high % of your referrals) it just means they are much more likely to be referred. Someone in a different income group or ethnic group could do exactly the same thing or worse and does not run as high a likelyhood of coming to your attention because of the way other people react to perceived status.
In built up areas you are also very likely to find the same names cropping up in the same areas a huge amount of people are creatures of habit they tend to like the familure its why we end up with top 100 name lists,people like what they hear frequently they get used to it its very unusual to pick a name outside the most frequently used ones.
Its got naff all to do with the actual children.
Well said Sockreturningpixie.
I don't know what KH would make of my twin ds's. One has a name on her approved list and the other is on her disapproved of list, (incidentally a name that has been mentioned a few times on this thread).
We chose their names simply because we like them and looking at them now, they really suit their names. I would hate to think that other mums were going to judge them as suitable play mate simply because of their names... but if they do, then more fool them.
People do judge though... In my work I hold a very senior position and when my DH once picked me up after work, a colleague said to me "I didn't realise your DS was black!
I said "Oh my... is he, I hadn't realised, thank you so much for telling me". Her face was a picture.
I was accused of being a troll last time I said this on MN but it really does depend on where you live. Sophie/Emily/Jack are all fairly bog standard here,most areas have a few of them. You will get a few in each class year in school.
I don't understand this preoccupation with class though. I know lots of people with different backgrounds,from a recovering drug addict to a media personality.
If someone is termed as middle class,does that really tell you anything of worth about them? I suppose if I lived in a class society I would be working class (council house,DH wOTH,I am a childminder, two cars 05 reg and a 10 reg ). Does any of that tell anyone what type of people we are? Of course not.
Yes people judge on names, but the really important thing is that different values will be placed on different names in different places and a different times, and among different communities.
As I said before, Joshua/Josh is a great example of this. Every single Josh I know is Jewish and it has absolutely never occurred to me that people put it into the
desperately trying to think of a euphemism when what they mean is 'chavvy' not naice middle class names category.
But on MN you see proclamations about how a certain name is categorically and universally déclassé just because that's how it is perceived in rural Buckinghamshire. The fact is that people in different places will have different name prejudices.
Many of the middle class Americans and Canadians I know have names that would go straight in the 'oh you'll never be a <insert prestigious profession here> with that name' category, but they're perfectly normal names where they grew up (and no barrier at all to becoming a lawyer or doctor or whatever).
It's really quite silly to imagine that everyone on earth (or even everyone in the UK) shares your particular name prejudices.
Awomansworth I love doing stuff like that. Did you mean your dh though?
Sockreturning pixie, I'm not sure that's true. I live in a relatively affluent area, close to a very deprived council housing scheme. I have friends who work in SW, education, health etc in my city and they all say that they see many more referrals from the housing scheme.
One example is a friend who is a firefighter, he visits homes to assess fire risk. In the estate, he saw quite a few homes where the dogs were given more sleeping space than the children. These children are already known to SW. There is a vastly higher incidence of drug addiction amongst that socio economic group too.
Isn't this just fact? All the research backs it up, doesn't it.
MorrisPixie: I think you might be mixing up a correlation (in your local area) with causation (and universality).
It doesn't surprise me that this thread opened with a criticism of a perfectly acceptable name, it just happens to be French.
My cousin (and partner) are "international", in that he works around the world (they are quite famous in their field and are head hunted). His partner is French, so his children have French family names (being unmarried the children are French nationals on their passports).
Yes they sound out of place when they visit home (Wales), equally his and my other Welsh cousin's names sound out of place where i live.
It doesn't mean that they shouldn't have been given those names.
Made up names, are one thing, but every time there is a name thread, the ignorance of some posters is shown, by rejecting the idea that life exists outside of middle England.
I think you can make a LOT of judgements about the parents:
Jak, Jaimz and the like... parent either can't spell, or is so desperate to be "unique" but without any originality to actually do it. I think people unanimously just think "poor kid" when they see those sort of spellings.
I actually find the middle-class trying to be quirky names much more annoying - they just strike me as the ultimate form of vanity - "I'm so desperate to be seen as some unique precious quirky thinker I've saddled my child with it to carry for the rest of their life - but all my friends will think I'm amazing"
I don't think it's fair on the kids - you're setting them up with what they're going to be identified by for their entire life - not a vehicle to feed your own ego.
We moved in January, and the school DD now attends is much more middle class. All the names here are
booooring top hundred.
Children are just the same though!
Arbitrary, can you explain a bit more what you mean re correlation and causation?
Wouldn't a social housing complex,by its very nature have a higher incidence of those needing SS involvement? I mean there's a large housing area near me that is known for having quite a few households where there is addiction/crime. Its not names or class that have caused this,its the ghetto-ness ( probably not a word) that is inevitable when people who have SS involvement are housed together in one area.
"There is a vastly higher incidence of drug addiction amongst that socio economic group too."
There isn't. What happens is that those of a higher income have the income to remove, or hide the problems that addiction, brings, by hiring cleaners, having boarded education, full child care etc.
The wider family tend to be of a similar income, so have spare bedrooms and cash and help out rather than services.
But that isn't what this thread is about.
"Its not names or class that have caused this,its the ghetto-ness"
You will find that it is income that groups people.
I think you are all missing the point. There are names out there that, bestowed upon our children, would rescue all of us from any fear of ever having to socialise with Katie Hopkins -- and no one gave us this critical information until it was too late . How was that allowed to happen? There needs to be a public enquiry or something.
Still, I suppose there's always deed poll...
All my cousins and friends have children with so-called 'common' names for example: Paris, Tyler, Scarlett, Alesha, Ebony, Ryan etc. but they are mainly well-behaved good children.
My cousins and friends are from ordinary WC backgrounds, non of them are drug addicts or have Soc Servs involvement, they all work and are good parents.
Most parents would be lucky to have children that are friends with them.
PS> I like names like Scarlett and Ebony anyway, if that makes me chavvy then I don't care.
I wouldn't judge the child but yes I would judge the parents. We all judge so lets not mn pc bollocks get in the way of what could be a good discussion.
2 of my dc have fairly unusual irish names. My other dc has a greek name which is becoming more popular. I was determined that I wasn't going to give my dcs a "common" name as I have a common name myself. I do judge the parents of children called chantel or bobbi-jo for example.
I love Scarlett, i and my eldest DD are big Gone in the wind fans, i couldn't call my middle DD Scarlett, my DH hated it.
No-one on the baby name thread likes my youngest DD's name, i am quite happy about that though, most of the names suggested on there, would have us laughed out of Liverpool.
I'll just explain where I live. Its a newer council housing estate. Most people around me work or study,trying to build a better life for themselves and their children.
Then there's the older area,which had a rejuvenation some years back but most people who are housed there have "problems". Its common knowledge that there is a segregation and I doubt it is unique to my area.
Over years of supply teaching across the whole spectrum of state schools, there are patterns of name choices, but it's a bit more complicated than class. The "unusual" names off the leafy suburbs and inner cities tend to be different to eachother. Traditional saints names tend to be seen as safe middle class, but are also very popular in the working class pit towns, more so as the population doesn't tend to move and be exposed to new influences as much.
Yes there seems to be "naughty" names and "good"names, but a name is just a label for a person, and that person is highly likely to defy their stereotype. That stereotype will change over time. Dr Pixie! We hold prejudices about all kinds of things, the important bit is what we do about them. Putting them aside and letting the individual show themselves is fine. Banning your children from mixing with others on a name is as bad as doing it with race. Let Brooklyn prove themselves to be an angel or a brat on their own terms.
I think it's made up clap-trap for self publicity anyway.
The thing is, it's naive to think that people's names can say something about them. Research quoted here seems to bear that out. We all make observations about people based on all sorts of evidence, reliable or otherwise. For me, the problem is that the delightful Katie is not only willing to make judgements about people based on them and to socially engineer her children's lives based on them. And also to assume that she is somehow superior to others. I will make snap judgements sometimes when I meet people, but I'm able to hold back, recognise that first impressions are often wrong and if I need to take a view at all, hold back until I know someone. Also, she is doing it on national television to make a quick buck, upsetting a lot of people in the process. Thing is, holly, for all that she was outraged, is on a show that has Katie on its books to troll for them. What did she expect Katie to say?
I have namechanged just for this thread. It's very specific info.
My RL name is Tiffany. Seems to attract the idea of being chavvy these days. But I'm probably one of the oldest people with the name in Britain today (I looked on Ancestry and I only saw about 50 people my age or older with the name.) I was given the name looooonng before it was used on EastEnders!
Mum chose the name because in 1964 she had been an au pair in California. It doesn't quite seem to have the chavvy connotations it has here (or at least, in my area).
For some reason, people get very surprised when they meet me. They do make assumptions about me and then I rock up in person and confuse them.
Meanwhile, DD is Harriet, and DS is James. Nice names, taken from a great-grandmother (my side) and a widely used family name (his side, but I also have various ancestors called James). We chose them because we liked them, and also for the family connections.
I don't care if I'm judged on the names at all. I know that my DCs are kind, helpful and thoughtful to others.
My children have "unusual" or "old fashioned" names. I chose them mostly because I liked them. My ds2 is named after his great-grandfather. If Katie Hopkins doesn't like their names then fine. She is a hypocrite. Her children have common names in my opinion. India, Poppy and Max. She is a vile woman and I am sure people wouldn't want their children playing with her children. Not because of their names but because their mother is such a witch!
Ashoething I know a Chantel; she's a very clever Clinical Leader (Nursing Sister) so when I hear that name I think of someone like her.
We have had lots of kids in care with us & one baby was called Miracle (average aussie baby with no known connection to any African heritage where this type of name is frequently used) After getting sick of people asking...Oh what was the miracle that made you decide on the name ? we just called her Mia if anyone asked. I didn't feel the need to explain that she was in care with us & we hadn't made the choice to every random stranger at the shops.
IfIonlyhadsomesleep I think I agree with what you say. There's a mixture of ordinary and slightly unusual names in my extended family (and a lot of Davids we're not Welsh). I don't judge them I just get to know them.
Harriet and James are nice names. They are classic and timeless which is good.
Lots of my cousins have names that are very 70s / 80s for example 'Jason' and 'Charlene' so they are quite dated now which is one of the problems with using some popular names.
A bit like middle-aged women are often called Pat or Sue; and elderly women are often called Betty or Doris.
Some on here would definitely judge me then... although that would probably depend on which ds I had with me at the time.
I'm of the opinion that those who would judge a person merely on the choice of their child's name, most likely has far more sinister prejudices that they are less happy to voice out loud.
I think the idea that you can control who your child befriends at school is ludicrous.
I chose names i liked for my boys, unfortunately i now know they are going to be judged as both names have been mentioned on this thread
i admit i raised an eyebrow when 'Renesme' was called at the doctors yesterday but i'm sure the little girl was lovely and i would not judge her as a person until i got to know her
Anyone named Kai is on a hiding to nothing for the rest of their life, imo.
In my class at school there were lots of Sarah's so to be honest that's my least favourite name because of who I associate the name with.
Names become popular with individuals or unpopular often due to the associations we fairly or unfairly have with those names.
'Tracy / Tracey' is a name with an unfair stereotype - again I know 2 very intelligent career women with that name.
LaGuardia - Exactly... and that comment goes for any of the names mentioned on this thread as being one of those names.
Sorry but I judge names -
any grown woman keeping the little girly name of Katie (so sweeeeeeeeeeeeet) would not usually have opinions that I would really care about....
One of DS1's friends is called Kai. He's a lovely boy, doing well at school and I suspect he'll do very well in life. His mother is on the lentil weaving end of the parenting spectrum.
I do judge. [ashamed]
Strange spellings are sure to raise eyebrow and poor tots called after vegetables/things/etc make me cringe.
Oops. Nearly started a duplicate thread on this. I was so angry with this stupid woman. And then to find out her children's names made me laugh at first and then get even angrier at her double standards.
A beat she is a snob, at worst she is a cruel manipulative parent who will turn her poor children into poorly adjusted adults.
As a teacher I avoided certain names for my ds as I did associate them with more challenging pupils,in my class. Often, but not all the time the more challenging children did seem to have certain names.
I think quite alot of the time names do give you an indication of the sort of class children are. Sorry but I've been teaching 10 years and in lots of very good schools in rich areas and schools in deprived areas and more often than not it's true. But you get your standard Jacob and josh wherever. I find names are spelt unusually in both types of schools.
I think you can usually tell quite a bit about a child from the name their parents chose for them and quite often challenging children have,the same kinds of names.
But I wouldn't judge them on it or not allow my ds to play with them because,of,it. This would be judged on the childs and parents behaviour no matter what the name was.
I would raise an eyebrow at misspelt or ridiculous names but would never dream of preventing my DCs from playing with said children or otherwise making negative assumptions about their families.
I also know 'normal' families who give their DCs determinedly middle class and pretentious names in a bid to sound posher than they are.
I work at an airport and see some corkers. One unlucky girl had been saddled with 'Feral' FFS.
I "judge" people/children because of their names when I don't know them. That doesn't mean I'd avoid them or forbid DD playing with them. And once you get to know someone, the name becomes pretty unimportant. Some people you like, others you don't.
But names definitely play a big role in first impresssions.
Maybe you CAN judge what class a person is from by his/her name, but who cares what class a person is from?
It's all very different here in the States anyway. Tristan, Octavia, Dominic...all very "chavvy" here. And what part of the country you're in makes a difference too.
It's all according to taste. A college friend just had a daughter and named her Kinzley Jayne. I have to admit I did a face when I read it on facebook...just not my taste at all! However, I'm sure she did the same when I had my DD a few weeks later and called her Margaret Rose.
Ha - just watched this and realised katie would not allow my kids to play with her kids, thank god although they have classless names, because we are the ones late for school and homework not always done by ds, mainly because he is sen and doesn't always want to go to school so struggle to get out the door some days. We don't always do his homework if he has had a bad day as it is too much for him. Funnily enough both my dcs are achieving above average and I hope that when my ds learns to work round his sen they will both go on to do wonderful things with their lives. Her loss! She sounds a very judgmental person who has no time or understanding for other peoples circumstances or difficulties in life and I would rather my kids didn't play with hers as I wouldn't want them mixing with such a snobby family. Her comments about the kids misbehaving in school left me cold as she made no allowances for the fact they might have sen or be going through a difficult time in life and need sympathy not judging.
I think sometimes it can give an indication of class but you shouldn't judge really - perhaps the parents but not the child.
Having said that all my teacher friends have pretty set ideas about kids called Connor, Kieran etc...
I would certainly judge that ignorant cow Katie Hopkins for calling her daughter after a country.
Cheerful Yank Tristan is chavvy?? it screams toff here!
One of the reasons why you get more referrals from estates like that is because people are quicker to refer when it involves someone from a poorer area.
You are no more likely to be a wife beater a child abuser a neglectful parent a sex offender or a incompetent parent if you are called Kevin than if you are called Hugo you are just more likely to come to the attention of the services.
Here's a funny example. I know two different people named Katie. I am assuming KH would approve of both as it's her name, too.
The first Katie is from a very wealthy family, lived in a huge mansion when she was growing up, went to all the best schools. At the age of 21 she died of a blood infection due to injecting heroin with a dirty needle.
The other Katie is from a working class family, lived in tiny flats growing up (different ones as her single mum was always behind on rent), wore second hand clothes, worked super hard to get through school and go to uni.
Katie Hopkins going by her self-proclaimed rules would've let her children play with both, but probably would've preferred the middle class Katie to the working class one, eventually. So her DD's, had they become best friends with MC Katie, would probably more likely had become exposed to illicit drug-taking than if they ran around with WC Katie.
I do think SW are referred to lower class families because sometimes the abuse or neglect isn't hidden as well. I know lots of incidences of abuse in higher class families, but there is more pressure to cover it up in order not to tarnish appearances.
By the way, the working class Katie is me. The middle class Katie was my childhood best friend. We met at nursery.
I think as well with higher class families, people are less likely to contact SS because they just don't believe it can be happening in that home. You see it on "should I tell someone about this" threads on here all the time. "But they are such a lovely family!" "He's always clean and well dressed!"
I would love to be there when Katie Hopkins' kids fling the 'Fuck off Mother, you aren't the boss of me, you can't control who I am friends with...' rant at her.
Don't you think having a less cosmopolitan and diverse set of friends means her kids would be more likely to rebel and stray from the parental ideals laid down by KH? Perhaps she is trying to raise insular bigots though?
I hope they rebel, but sadly parents often pass down their insipid, bigoted opinions to their offspring, which is how racism, classism and such are still sadly in existence today.
She is a total loon imo.
And I totally pmsl when she said 'I don't like geographical names - Brooklyn, London...' and Phil said 'But your child is called India'.....!!!
She said 'But India isn't a 'destination'....'
She is crazy, and shouldn't be given air time.
We chose names that we liked and had meaning for us, but which were also broadly MC - some names cover a broader class and cultural span than others I feel ? Also DS's name is posher and more traditional than DD's, but maybe many are a little more adventurous with girls names ?
But would be wrong to say we had no awareness of the class connotations at all. I think most people do, and seem to choose those their friends and family will be comfortable with.
We wanted to keep our son's options open, so gave him the name of a king, a saint, and our nice bin man.
That could be my son's name too Aidan - we wanted to go for a bit of breadth in cultural connotations too
I'm an ex-pat in America, and the name Tyler is quite WASPy over here. There are many American names I'm not keen on--Carter, Jackson etc--but I don't draw conclusions about kids or parents based on their names. (Although last week I did meet a three-year-old Jagger, and wondered whether it was a family name, whether grandma was a former groupie etc. etc.)
Cannot stand Katie Hopkins and she probably judges everyone on everything Hope all of her childrens' play buddies parents read the article and avoided her.
I think there is a very small element of judging someone on their name but not to the extent of katie Hopkins. There will always be names that people deem chavvy - a list that is changing all the time.
Interestingly I read y'day that Mabel is making a huge comeback. So all the old names are coming back round again.
Plus ça change.
I was absolutely appalled. I have a bit of a reputation here on MN for having my judgey pants on a little too often, but first of all, if MN has taught me one thing it is
never to admit to giving your child a gregg's sausage roll never to judge a child based on their name. But more importantly what I find so disgusting about this is she isn't just making assumptions based on names, she is actually acting on them. She genuinely believes she is better that other people. While I do admit that I may occasionally make an assumption about someone based on their name (and I'm more than happy for that assumption to be proven incorrect) I would never prevent my DDs from playing with a child because of their name. I would never dream of preventing my children from playing with anyone for that matter.
I did laugh when I read that the topic was started based on a survey conducted on Netmums. That will teach them for asking The Hun!
My DS has a very unusual biblical name. It is a traditional name in my DH's family. Over the years DS has got fed upon with explaining where the name comes from. If anyone asks now he simply says that the name is Jewish. We are not Jewish, but lots of people have assumed that we are!
I think the middle classes with lots of little Jeremys, Fenellas, Tabithas, and Arthurs look smugly down on the working class Isabellas, Connor, Kaydens and Rubys.
Of course the real upper classes tend to stick with Edward, Henry,George, Charlotte,Victoria,Mary (king or queen names) no need for the 'is this a high court judge name' test needed.
If you really judge people on their names you know someone somewhere will be judging you and yours
I feel I need to ask for absolution here too. Any comments on the name board have been for potentially bad naming decisions, the naming of as yet unborn children. I would never judge the children, but yet, it might have seemed like I was judgemental. It was the knowledge that YES there really are people like KP out there that makes me want to say hmm, what about Elizabeth? to people considering Taylor/Tyler/Tayden/Jayden
I read through a list of mayflower sur names once and they're all really ugly! What appeals to American ear is a name that sounds crusty and old and weird and sounds kind of mayflower-ish without actually being one of those names because they are all terrible.
Isabella is hardly working class! nor is Conor (when spelled correctly, as it is from an ancient legend). Kayden, ok, i'll give you that one!
what I mean is, Isabella is hardly a choice typical of a lower class. It's a bit too frilly. Not to my taste but it's definitely a mass appeal name.
I would probably too Sunnymeg - just as you would probably assume I was of Belgian/Dutch ancestry if you saw my surname, which I'm not either. But that doesn't bother me, I just correct people.
And let me be the one to get in it: But nothing about WithWoolEnPointe sounds Flemish! <boom tish>
I judge. I do. I judge those parents who are so insecure and self centred that they have to give their children god awful names that just scream nouveau rich and then control who the poor little mites socialise with.
God awful, toffee nosed, self absorbed muppets whose children grow up believing that the local council estate is a rough as it gets in life and you can tell who's intelligent, honest and caring based solely on Prada and postcodes.
I have never judged a child by their name but I have been known to judge the odd Mother on her affect
Like many of you, I'd never judge a CHILD on their name but I may think some parents have different taste to mine and that's OK. Wouldn't it be awful if all boys were called John and all girls were called Rose. We need Jaydens and Chardonnays otherwise we'd all be calling our kids the same thing!
I personally prefer classic names. DS1 is Joseph and I love his name and have never received anything but nice comments about it. DS2 is Rowan which often receives mixed responses. I don't care whether people judge me for the names I chose for them but for God's sake don't judge the children!
I must admit to sometimes feeling sorry for the children when I hear really bizzare names being called accross the play ground. I once met a Lord-Triumphant, I mean wtf??? That's a kid who'll be changing his name on his 18th birthday. I wouldn't judge him on it or not let my child be friends with him though, that is utterly ridiculous and completely snobby and unreasonable.
Sigh.. The script is
1: what,s their name?
1:ahh how lovely. end
When people ask my son his name and they look all quizzical. I tell them that it is Japanese for open/ broaden your mind. There isn,t the English equivalent
Katie Hopkins should remember she was photographed naked having sex in a field with a married man, whist married to someone else.
Those in glass house, shouldn't throw stones esp about 'judging' people or children. Personally in my view, she doesn't know how to behave!
Would love to be at the school gate later
KH is bonkers. She'd never remember or listen to anyone. So deluded it's unreal.
Have to admit I am a bit judgy - I fint it odd, especially white families who give there kids trendy ethnic names. Always a surprise when you have them round for tea and they are a little white blonde haired boy!
I agree with Pom Bear, certain names do seem to go with certain families, or types of people. My husband is a prosecutor and he always says the same names come into court time and time again. He doesn't seem to come across many Henrys or Hugos.
And funnily enough when our son was bitten at nursery a few weeks ago, one of 'those' names cropped up again as the offender.
It's hard to judge the person, but the parents decide the name and decide the values to instill in their child and the behaviour they expect so i can see where the prejudices come from.
The Queens grand-daughter-in-law is called Autumn, and her great grand daughter is called Savannah.
Chavs the lot of them.
Well <hoicks up judgeypants> DS told me that he went to his music exam last weekend at another school and while he was waiting there he saw a row of pegs, with names on stickers underneath each peg, and the pegs all said things like "Sam G", Charlotte H" etc and then in the middle was one that said "Tintin L".
Ds was actually most tickled by Tintin also having the initial of his surname, as at his school you only do that when there are two of you in the same class.
I do judge people who call their child Tintin, actually.
I think it's quite normal to have some pre-conceptions/ a picture in your head of what someone might be like based on their name before you meet them. Then you get to know them, and it's just their name.
I remember once I was going to be working with someone called Margaret - I assumed beforehand that she'd be middle aged; turned out to be in her early 20s. If she'd been called something like Laura, or Louise, I'd have assumed she would be my age.
It's natural to try and imagine a bit what someone is going to be like, and when you only have their name to go on, then you might well end up stereotyping a bit... I'm sure lots of people do it.
If you've met someone and are still stereotyping or judging them due to their name, rather than what you can actually see they are like as a person, then you're a bit of a twat imo.
I hope the name Katie doesn't get judged in a negative light after this
I think there is a difference between making an initial judgement on a name, and allowing it to be a deciding factor in whether you allow yourself/your children to associate with that person.
Being completely honest there are names that, as KH said on that clip, when shouted out across the playground/supermarket, conjure up images of mothers of the same ilk as Waynetta Slob (sorry, but its true), however taking that image and deciding that whether or not your child is ALLOWED to be friends with that child is appalling. Just because a mother is a Waynetta-type, doesnt mean that you should stop your child from associating with the child. You might want to keep after school play dates in your house rather than letting your child go to their house if you have concerns abut the environment, but thats a seperate issue.
I don't believe she meant it though. Judging by her website that promotes her as a social commentator she's just out for a buck.
As a parent she must also have met the children with ordinary names who turn out to be not so nice.
I don't believe for instance that her party invitations are sent out based on names. We all know classroom politics have as much influence as whether the child is a real friend of the child in question or not.
If my children liked a certain child I would not give a damn what he or she were called. They would be made welcome at our home regardless of my fondness for their name. Once I had met the child I would then make a judgment, their parents socio economic background would also be of no interest to me whatsoever.
Names are individual's choices, what one person loathes another will adore. The only comment I have ever made regarding someone's name is when I have never heard it before and I am unsure how to pronounce it.
Detest Kate Hopkins and wonder why this woman is given airtime.
The only way that KH can get airtime is by acting in an outrageous manner - that way people will watch to see what outrageous statements and views she will spout next.
I think it's inevitable to form opinions about children's parents/ families based upon the name they have been given. However, I think to use this as a basis to select your children's friends or to use this as an opportunity to look down or others is quite shocking and pretty disgusting behaviour. Shame on her.
Think I might change my DCs names to T'Shaine or Tyler or something so they never, ever have to mix with KH or any of her progeny. What a vacuous barrel scraper she is.
Anyone named Kai is on a hiding to nothing for the rest of their life, imo.
Apart from the Kai at DDs' nursery who is the son of a Japanese couple born a year or so ahead of the Rooney baby. I suspect a lot of eye-rolling went on in their house when it was announced.
Just seen the This Morning interview. I now want to kill her.
Haven't read the whole thread yet, but re TheSecondComing comment on P2 - I get your point but in fact I do know a posh Kyle...
I also know many middle class Joshuas and am surprised by how many teachers assume all Joshuas are of a 'type'
I think the whole thing is ridiculous. Yes, obviously people will always disagree on names, but to judge a child because of their name is cruel!
Although I'm about to give my kid an Irish name and am wearily prepared for the comments given how many people think Irish names 'chavvy' (ie how many ignorant twats there are)
SonorousBip Tintin is a nickname in France. Something I learned from the TV series Spiral. Googling seems to suggest it is a diminuative of Augustin.
Monnie My son has an Irish name.
I dont care if people want to judge my 3 year because of his name. Go ahead and judge me while you are at it. Its a name, that is it.
I dont see why people care so much about what other people call their children.
My name is judged as chavvy yet its a standard name that was popular when I was born. There's many famous and successful people with the same name. Its funny because my surname turns up on the 'what surname would you love to have' threads so I don't know if that counters my 'chavvy' first name.
Name your child Sponge for all I care
Ok my DS2 is named Josh not Joshua and is starting school in August I`m getting a bit worried about the comments that teachers assume all Joshua`s are a type - I have actually heard this before but didn`t pay much attention - should I be worried?
I think it is all total rubbish. I couldn't care less about class or names of other people's children.
Since when were Irish names "chavy"? My dad is a Ciaran and I don't think you could possibly call a 95 year old man a chav.
Name your child Sponge for all I care
Only to the point of thinking how that name might affect the kid when he/she is older. I was bullied because my surname, when you swap a letter to another one, turns into dead in my mother tongue.
so what. so what if my name marks me out as working class. what if, even on top of seeming working class, i god help me actually am working class
if you are the kind of twat who gets off on pathologising the sheer fact of the existence of working class people, might i suggest, that on such a hot day you might find it refreshing to soak your head in a bucket of cool water for, oh, 3 hours or so.immerse up to the shoulders, mind, for best results
My DD has one of the names they mentioned as being 'posh'. She has friends of the Tyler/Jordan type of name. I can't say the names crossed my mind for any reason other than that I don't really like them and therefore wouldn't choose them for my own children. But I couldn't care less if they're 'common' or even if they don't do their homework
The part that really made me laugh was this:
KH: "I hate 'place' names for children"
Phillip: "Your daughter is called 'India'"
Surely if you were judging anyone, you would be judging the parent.
I have at a name called across a playground, but I've never judged the kid for it.
I went to boarding school and a Redbridge university. You would be surprised how many of those names are more common (ie in more general use) now. It also meant that Portia and Hero were definintely not names on my list for both my daughters. (Although Hero was vetoed for another reason as well)
My first name is double barrelled and I have had people do a double take when they have called my name and I've replied.
I was on a bus once, and over heard a conversation about my name. (I've only met one other woman with my first name so was a little surprised that it was popular enough to come up in conversation) Apparently it was to Chavy and popular and Amy-Grace (nothing like my name), would be more classical.
Oh, and the only Tarquin's and Peregrins I have met outside of school, would not be considered posh enough for Katie!
Toby its not a location! Then when Holly told her to stop her face dropped.
My thoughts were does KH, or you lot for that matter, live in an area with no ethnic diversity?
Where I live a lot of names are cultural, or non English origin. We would have a hard time fitting the children in to these categories of middle class or working class by their names!
I would absolutely love it if when people saw her in the street, they would shout 'Tyler' in their best Bianca Jackson impression, or maybe Katie? That could get really annoying haha!
What did KH say that made Holly say stop? Watched it three times now and can't catch it!
She said "she's more of a Black Tower or Blue Nun". WRT wine/Chardonnay.
The vast majority of people - whether they admit to or even realise it or not - make judgements and form opinions based on someone's name alone.
I grew up with a very posh sounding double-barrelled surname and a huge number of people made automatic (and generally erroneous) assumptions about my background, wealth and my attitude - branded as stuck-up or a snob before I'd even spoken to them.
Since I took my husband's name I no longer find I get these responses from people when I first meet them.
I do rather judge parents who name their children ridiculous things, and I admit that I do have preconceived notions about a child's background based on their name. Unfairly or otherwise, I would be a tad surprised if Araminta lived on a council estate in Peckham, or that Chardonnay lived in a mansion off the King's Road, Chelsea.
DD's middle names would be considered firmly upper-middle class, but her first name is widely used (top 50) so doesn't mark her as anywhere in particular.
Yes Hamilton, Tristan is "chavvy" in America! Though chavvy is not a word here. All the Tristans I know are nice though. Invluding Trystin, who is a girl.
I pity the poor soul who ends up with kh as a mil.
I'll admit to judging parents on the name they've given but I'd never judge the child or stop them playing with dd.
There are a few names like ethelbert and Norris that I really hope don't make a comeback
I try not too, but sometimes I do
I mean why call your child Hero, Snake, Tee Rex or Labia, Lemon or Storm? just why?
I work in an infant school and to an extent what KH was saying is true - many children with the types of names she mentioned can be more challenging than others, however this is NOT always the case. I think the point is too that whilst many children can be little horrors when small they do not always go on to become horrible adults. It is very interesting to follow the academic "careers" of some of our interestingly named children who go through school and it can be extremely surprising. As adults we know we cannot judge people by their names, as many posters have stated, and it is wrong to suggest to our children that others with particular names would not be appropriate playmates. For the record, we have friends who have 3 boys, their father is Brazilian and they wanted "unusual" names for their boys which would be different from the Brazilian norm - their boys are called Darren, Kevin and Adrian. All 3 boys are tri-lingual, play at least 2 musical instruments and Darren recently achieved 10 grade As at GCSE. So..................
Nothing wrong with Hero as a girl's name; it has a long pedigree going back to Hero and Leander in Greek mythology, and there's a Hero in Much Ado About Nothing .
There are certain names I hear and think 'euurgh'.
Well, one name. Katie Hopkins...
I DO judge names. Everyone does. A name tells you what the parents wanted to call their child- I dread to think of what KH would say about DS' name for example. It says what sort of name I like, but that and only that really!
I would judge any parent who gave a child a name that would lead to bullying/cruelty from others.
But names are so very personal...I really dislike some perfectly nice normal names just because they have connotations for me (eg: Alison, Charlotte)
I do have an issue with names spelt in a silly way.
Their kids will be spelling that out forever more....
"No, it's loulouemalinealishamai"
My DS3 is going to secondary in September and the only other DC who's going with him from his school is called Jordan. He has a sister called Sydney and a brother called Tyler-John. Is his mum 'chavvy?' Horrible word, she's a working class mum. Am I sad that DS3 has only one friend going with him? Yes, a few more would have been nice, but I could have kissed Jordan's mum when she chose the same school as my DS. Jordan is a lovely boy, really talented at football, very different from my quirky DS3 (who's a bit athletically challenged) but they will have each other when they start school and I am delighted that DS3 won't start alone.
Fucking snob, that Katie Hopkins!
sherbetpips Fri 05-Jul-13 13:41:28
"Have to admit I am a bit judgy - I fint it odd, especially white families who give there kids trendy ethnic names. Always a surprise when you have them round for tea and they are a little white blonde haired boy!"
Quite agree. All these Joshuas, Rebeccas, Sarahs and Josephs, when there clearly isn't a trace of Jewish ancestry.
Little blond children should be called Aethelfrith and Frideswide. Or, if very blond, Canute.
I was saying as much to little Hereward and Aelfgifu only the other day, cory.
Not sure of the source but concerning that vile troll I think this article is a must-read:
cavernous, belching cunt
It sums her up quite nicely dontmeanto
I will judge the parent if the name is cruel - for instance when the news story about little Adolf Hitler and his sister JoyceLynn Aryan Nation came out. I judged that the parents were not-very-nice neo-nazis and the kids were in trouble saddled with parents like that. Turns out I was right - the father is a violent neo-nazi and the kids were taken into care and will never be going home.
However I do NOT class names like Chelsea, Cheryl or Sharli to be cruel. They don't have any nasty connotations, there's nothing wrong at all with them as a name. I would never judge a child or parent based on that.
My eldest has a very unusual name and i think it would be classed along with Sharli and Kaidon by the KH's of the world. Not that I'll ever know, no one on ANY of the multitude of name threads on this site has ever mentionned it, ever. But I don't give a damn. I love her name, it grew on me, and it suits her perfectly
My middle one has a name which is a top-50 (or maybe top 20 or 10, not sure) name in other countries but unusual here. Think like 'Jesus' - everyone knows it's a name, and a popular one too, in some countries, but there aren't many born-in-Britain Jesus's.
If asked about either of their names, I just smile and say yes, how my daughter's names are lovely and suit them, and your kids names are also lovely by the way...stops the conversation every time.
There are names that I really don't like.
A lot of them are the new modern names such as Jayden, Tejay, Ajay etc BUT although they are names that I wouldn't pick I just think names evolve and change, go in and out of fashion and so on.
A lot of the names from the 50's and 60's (Sharon, Tracey Linda, Wayne etc) would have seemed bizarre to the previous generation.
In a generation there will be a load of new names coming out and the Chardonay's, Levi's, Kyle's will be despairing at the new fangled names saying 'wff?'
What about spelling variations? I have a DD with a long, foreign name which is a variation on an English name, shortened to an uncommon but heard of English name, spelled differently because it comes from the long foreign name. I can imagine Katie Hopkins thinking I can't spell. That said, I have a double barreled first name, so does that make my child acceptable as a playmate even if her first name is spelled funny?
Just seen Katie Hopkins Twitter page
Oh my God - it's absolutely vile. Cruel, nasty jokes at childrens expense, benfits bashing, it goes on and on and on
I refuse to use the name my family call me because it stirs up images of a prostitute (which I realise is completely illogical and that someone who has the same name that my family use for me isn't automatically a prostitute)
I think if we're honest we all automatically start making a "profile" in our head of someone we haven't met based on a couple of basic bits of information such as name...but I'd like to think that most of us are balanced enough to realise that the image we imagine based on one or two simple facts about a person is likely to be far removed to who that person actually is once we get to know them.
Only just watched the video - what a plonker KH is! She says doesn't like seasonal or geographical names - apparently says "Something" about the parents. Interesting then that the Princess Royal's daughter in law is called Autumn - which I think is lovely - and Peter and Autumn Phillip's daughter is called Savannah! Apparently they wouldnt be "upmarket enough" to play with KH's DCs?? (hmm) BTW I fall into same category as my DD has a geographical name too!
KH isn't very intelligent at all is she?
Either that or she's a very vile nasty piece of work?
I was on the bus earlier (Katie would never go on a bus I'm sure) and there was a family wearing shiny tracksuits, all with accents that make me wince, and because of this thread I registered that their children's names would have made them acceptable for playdates at KP's! David, Emma and Christopher. I was surprised. I think. Then I also noticed that despite having a rotten accent a skin head, the dad was really pulling his weight with the kids. Which is more than my suited, booted, educated, cologne-scented, floppy-haired, tattoo-free, Tag heuer wearing Xh ever did.
I know a few teachers who dread kids with certain names.
Didn't the Royal Family have reservations about Autumn though? (The girl and her background rather than the name particularly?)
Although to be fair, they probably didn't and what I am actually remembering is some sneery Daily Mail hatchet job
Peter isn't titled though, so his wife will never have a title. What's wrong with her background? She's Canadian from same sort of family as Kate, but with less money than Kate's family I think.
Have just googled and apparently the issues were (apart from her being a commoner like KM):
1) She was Catholic. Which would have meant Peter would have lost his place in the line of succession had she not converted to CoE (which she did)
2) They did a naff photoshoot with Hello (for cash) which didn't go down too well apparently.
This got my goat and I'd like to ask Katie Hopkins a few questions. I think someone so self-promoting will read everything about themselves that they can find, so on the off-chance you are reading this thread, Katie, here are my questions:
1. Have you thought about the pain that working class mothers may go through when watching their children being excluded from friendships? Further to that, have you considered what it may be like for a six year old to realise he is not 'as good' as your daughter? What about when he goes home feeling sick with hurt because he was one of the few not invited to the birthday party? What do you feel when you think about that?
3. Do you think human decency can thrive when powerful people (with money) deliberately marginalise children who are already on the back foot?
4. Do you think that you're responsible for your daughter's moral development, as well as seeing that she 'succeeds' in other ways? Do you wish your children to grow up thinking that no, all children are not created equal? Further to that, could you briefly summarise the kind of thinking that leads to genocide and see if there are any similarities?
5. Have you considered that snobs are not always very popular these days, especially with teachers? In addition, have you considered that advertising your boorish unattractiveness may jeopardise India's chances of playdates with the children of families that disagree with you? Perhaps there are mothers out there today deciding that they don't want those opinions rubbing off on their daughters!
6. Have you thought about the possibility that sensitively raised children will not necessarily follow others like sheep? And is it not your job to ensure India has done her homework to the best of her ability?
7. Are you aware that the true mark of good breeding is to make everyone feel comfortable, regardless of position? And the true mark of a civilised society is one in which marginalised people are facilitated to participate on an equal footing with others?
8. How does appearing on morning TV and behaving so coarsely compare with a mother calling 'Tyler' across the park?
9. consider that the people who think you're not good enough to be acquainted with their children might be right -- three married men, seriously? THREE--
yOU are so right about 7
10. How much do you get paid for making up controversial opinions and then spouting them on TV?
11. Is it enough to fill the big, gaping hole in your soul where your dignity must once have been?
Her dad's name is Roy.
Now from where I come from some MAY class that as very working class.
I know her background probably wasn't BUT if some people heard the name Roy, they might think she was, well, working class I suppose.
I know a few Katies as I work with young people.
One is lovely and doing extremely well. Off to private school in September.
Another comes to our residential unit and is on the verge of being taken into care full time due to neglect issues.
Another one is my cousin and she is nice enough. She is in her 40's and has a nice family.
Another one is just Kate and she is a very pretty lesbian who swears alot and make me laugh.
Another one is Katie-Jane and I work with her as well, she has Down Syndrome.
Same name, but all individuals. I prefer any one of them to KH. They are all so much more pleasant
Do I ever mentally raise an eyebrow? Yes, of course.
Do I engineer my kids' friendships based upon children's names? No.
Cory, I'm not disagreeing with you wrt what my parents and grandparents consider jewish names, but the Christian bible is made up of the old testament and the new testament. Obviously I can understand why Jewish people wouldn't use names from the new testament! I don't understand the other way round though! I nearly used the name Saul for my son. I loved it. I used a name which is considered Catholic. But the only adult I know with the name is Jewish.
This makes me so stabby. My child probably has a name that this twat of a woman would hate. However I adopted my child and did not name her. So not only does my child get a shitty start in life either her or me will be judged by short sighted cretins that should really know better. Brilliant
My DS has a fairly straight forward name but I'd never judge anyone for what they decided to call their child - and I'd certainly never judge the child.
To be honest I couldn't care less if people ban their child from playing with mine because of his name. I wouldn't want him mixing with such a narrow minded family. My fear would be that it'd change him into someone who made a judgement based on something other than how he was treated by his new friend. He's been encouraged to make friends based on how he feels about a person, not what they look like, speak like, dress or how much money their family appears to have.
I have to say Katie Hopkins is quite entertaining. She's got millions of us talking about her - I bet This Morning is delighted.
This objectionable, wicked step mother persona is her MO. She can't be that narrow minded in real life.
There is a small & uncomfortable element of truth in what she says. MN afterall, is full of baby name threads where names are declared 'chavvy', and I have two lovely teacher friends who will 'jokingly' say what names they don't want to see on their registers.
This Morning get her on because she plays up to this part so perfectly and I suspect she cares not a hoot about the reaction to her outrageous comments.
But steering her kids away from others because she dislikes their names? I just don't believe it.
there is a difference between liking or disliking a name and purely judging a person on what name they were given at birth or adoption.
What KH says she does is put everyone into her class slots, as she wants her dc to only play and interact with children of the same class as themselves. This has little to do with names other than it is her prefered way of deciding whether some child is from a particular class.
What I would really like to ask KH is what class are her dc, how do they fit in with a publicly fornicating adulterous as a mother? Is it the underclass or the publicly humiliating class
All I'm saying is that her name, Katie, reminds me of the other well known Katie and that's as chavvy and vulgat as it gets.
Surely she should be Catherine. Or Kate, at worst.
I have taught a Prospero, Tempest and Ariel, all from the same family, who were all vile. Names are meaningless, the nicest, most intelligent pupil I ever taught, who is now a high flying barrister, was called Brad!
I recently came across a child named Peachez. Anyone who says they wouldn't judge a family who would name a child Peachez, is lying.
Katie Hopkins is a professional troll. The media continue to trundle her out because she continues to provoke a reaction. That said, she does have a point. People should not give their kids fucking stupid names.
Professional troll is a perfect description.
Not every name is a give away about a child's parentage, but many names have a high correlation with certain sorts of parentage.
I'd eye roll at a Peachez. And I'd make assumptions about the parents. Wrong of me but I would . For a start, I would imagine them to be young.
I wouldn't not let my DS play with a Peachez though or have any issue with the family other than thinking they had bad name choices. But they might well think the same about me.
Agree, janowicz. Naming a child after, say, an alcoholic beverage, says a great deal about your values, to say nothing of your common sense. It just does.
My surname is an alcoholic beverage
I think the thing with a child named Peachez is that it shows the family lack common sense. I would probably have to 'suss them out' a fair bit before I would let my DC play there. More so than if they had a child named James or Charlotte.
My adopted daughter has what is often described on mn as a 'chavvy' name. How dare those of you who admit to judging dare to judge her? She's had a worse start in life than most of you could imagine and she's doing brilliantly despite it. The last thing she needs is more grief in her life.
One of my sons has a chavvy name. I didn't realise it was chavvy until I came on mumsnet. Am I bovvered?
I have a child called Charlotte.
I don't think I fit into your nice little box though.
My sons middle name if James his first would probably mean I would need 'sussing out'
And her sister has the ultimate 'Chav'
She is shallow and callous.
Well said Happyon.
I don't think it's so much about a nice little box, loads of kids at my DC's school have names I don't like at all. My point is that if one of my DC wanted to go and play at little Teqquyla's house, I would checking out little Teqquyla's family more thoroughly than little Sarah's family. Right-on though we all are, I think most of us would, most of us just wouldn't admit it.
doesn't stella McCartney have a bailey and a miller? sounds like a drinks order. "is that everything?"
My point here is that I would suspect that somebody who would name a child Peachez is probably a bit silly. And I would want to ascertain that they could be trusted to look after my child. That's all.It's not about judging a Liam or a Tyler, it's about people who would give their child a name so silly that I would question their values and common sense.
I just don't care about what people call their children. I dont judge people on what names they decide or think that 'Peachez' mum needs sussing out more then Sarah.
I saw this woman on this morning and thought Holly Willoboobie did well not to slap her tbh, she looked a lot like she wanted to
I think my dds name is fine but I would have a massive problem with my dd playing with this womans children as I wouldn't want her anywhere near such a malignant and pernicious person
My dds best friend has a name that some
horrible people would be snobby about and it breaks my heart tbh that the poor girl could be judged before even uttering a word
Can't believe she would check out a Simon. I think Simon is a lovely name and I have yet to meet one in the flesh!
The problem with judging children's names is that the person judging can often get it wrong. I have seen criticism on MN of names like Mercedes or Levi, or spellings like Aleksandr or Ysabel, all of which are traditional names in certain cultures/countries. Another good one is Chantal, a lovely French name (which, I concede, English people mangle).
So people may judge wrongly, even on their own terms, if they think it is okay to judge.
The problem with being a name snob is that is shows you up as being incredibly
provincial restricted in your world view.
There are millions of reasons why people choose a name that are specific to their family, history, and possibly future plans in life (some names/spellings are very challenging in other languages, something that may seem like a misspelling in English may be massively more manageable in other languages).
Having been born in a country where you had to choose names from an officially approved list, and as a result about 1 in 3 women had the equivalent of Mary for a first name, I rather enjoy meeting people with more unusual names.
I do find that when I meet yet another 'insert most popular name of the year' I wonder how a parent could do that to their child, but then I guess statistically speaking it's always going to exist.
My sister's son has a name that another sister said was 'quite black' while my DD has an old-fashioned Polish name (I'm Polish) that hasn't even been popular over there for many a decade . It suits her perfectly, and I've yet to meet another child (or another woman under 80) with it.
I wouldn't judge a child on their name, only on their behaviour. DD can play with whoever she wants to - I'd be incredibly sad if she grew up to be a snob or a racist, judging people on such random stuff.
" I dont judge people on what names they decide"
But you do. We all do. You draw conclusions about somebody named Tequila-Storm, of course you do.
badtime and liara - exactly. Foreign names are really common where I live (in a non-posh bit of south London), as parents are often first- or second-generation immigrants. I think it's beautiful that they're giving their child something of a country they won't grow up in, to carry with them every day. (OK it's a Friday night and I'm a leetle drunk.)
Also, sorry, but I get SO BORED of all the top-10, top-20 names too... people, do you really want half your DCs class to have the same name? I'd rather a Savannah or a Kyle than another Amelie or Thomas...
I honestly couldn't give a flying nun what someone decides to call their children. I have a huge family with some unusual names thrown in which people roll their eyes at or claim they are 'chavvy'
Why would I care what people call their own children? I judge on what people say and do not what they are called or decide to call their children.
As I said earlier, call your child sponge for all I care!
I've never met a kid with the name Tequila-Storm - have you? She could be the youngest sister of Bob Geldof's girls, and a millionaire, just as easily as she could be from an estate in Peckham. I might raise an eyebrow at her parents' decision, but I'd judge her on her behaviour.
I was at the zoo yesterday and I swear I heard a little girl being called Gravity. I wonder how you would judge her by that name?
I've met kids with names you wouldn't believe. They all have extremely silly parents. It's a lovely idea that somebody can be called Casino and that says nothing whatsoever about them as a person, but it certainly isn't my experience.
But it doesn't say anything about them as a person - it says a LOT about their parents, though.
But unfortunately for little Casino and her(!) many similarly-named siblings, they are being raised with their parents values. People who would name a child after their preferred gambling venue.
I want a DD called Mecca Bingo
I think you're being classist about this - working-class values = bad, middle-class values = good. Since when is gambling a working-class vice? Little Hugo or Araminta might be being raised to think it's OK to cheat, lie or steal, while Casino et al might be the most polite, bright and kind child in the classroom.
This class shite I only ever see on MN
DS (reception age) has a child in his class called Tray-Kwon. He won't be going to Tray's place for any playdates. Not because of his name, but because he has a habit of scratching my son with a sharpened pencil until he bleeds, and asked me once if DS could come to his house to "watch Alien versus Predator".
What is interesting in this discussion is how no one seem to be raising the issue of judging on the ethnicity of a child's name. DS' class has the above mentioned Tray-Kwon, Tyreece, Labibah, Usaim, Nuah, Bilal and Tenisha. Bet you all made a quick judgement on where their families came from.
I've met kids with nice normal names who live in big fuck off posh houses who are the biggest stoners ever.
Is Liam considered chav in the Uk? that's irish for William oh well. is Guillaume chav? or Guillermo?
Joshua/josh isn't that common here in central Scotland as far as I know. "Bad" boys names would be Connor and the dreaded Calum
A while back I was chatting to a teacher who said that she'd never be able to call a child of hers XXXXX because she had seen so many children with that name who were a handful. Later that day I was talking to my DD who was complaing about a child in her class who was always causing trouble, jokingly I asked if he was called XXXXX, her reply was "How did you know?"
I think we all judge, whether consciously or otherwise.
So, all the bad boys in England have Irish names? I used to live in England. so glad now I didn't call my son Diarmuid. I was going to.
Itsonly, a child called Gravity would naturally be very down to earth of course, a real no nonsense type. You'd always know where you stand with a child called Gravity.
Zyn It seems so. My son has an Irish name so he is obviously going to a bad lad. I have an Irish first name but I dont think I am that bad
There may well be hordes of little Casinos somewhere with the most unimpeachable manners and standards of behaviour. That is not the case, however with this Casino. And I'll tell you why. It's because she is being raised by the kind of people who would name a child Casino.
It's the working class bashing that bothered me.
As if there aren't middle class and upper middle class children called Tyler!!
And there will be a Poppy out there who's a real trouble maker. Just as there will be a well behaved Chardonnay.
Names are nothing to do with it.
Am slightly worried about Connor and Callum being 'bad' boy names. My poor DS
MagicKey my sons name is similar. Fancy starting a club? 'mothers of obvious bad lads'
I think we all unconsciously have an opinion on certain names and may think, 'That sounds a little odd' or 'That looks like it's spelt wrong' but honestly, that's all that we usually tend to think.
Once we meet the person in question we judge them on their personality and how they behave. Even if I wasn't to meet a Chardonnay in person I may think her name was a little different or not what I'd've chosen for my DD but I wouldn't jump to 'chav' and 'I don't want my child to play with her' that's just vile.
Anyone who doesn't want to play with my daughter or any future children I have in the future because of their name is someone I don't particularly want my daughter/FC to come into contact with, because they are petty.
Thinking and acting on it are completely different things.
I also don't see what the big fuss is about class. Who cares? IF someone is nice, polite, works hard and is genuinely a nice person does it matter if their Mum lives in a council flat or a mansion? I mean, seriously?
I have friends who earn anywhere from £100 a week or being on benefits to £12,000 a month and the behaviour of their children isn't different.
I'm sorry if I am re-iterating something that has already been said but 'A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet'
And Katy Hopkins will always be a heinous self serving twat.
Katy, at least children named Gravity are always very attractive.
just to clarify - I don't judge the children fo whatever names they have!
I try not to judge the parents either - but sometimes I can't help myself.
I'm sorry, but calling a child Fox is not right.
and when a little boy in the supermarket got told off the day :
"Stop that! Stop being naughty Hero!" I almost snorted and had to look at my kids very sternly to stop them from laughing. it was comical.
and I couldn't't help but associate Felix with the cat food - but since 2 of our kids' friends are called Felix ( both lovely boys!) that has changed.
another interesting thing - one mum at school has a very unusual name. I kept on forgetting it, and asked her several times to remind me.
it got very embarrassing and also hilarious as her name is Memory!
oh and our children have Biblical first and middle names. because of the meanings, our religion and because we liked the names.
our eldest is Joshua btw. No problems at school, behavioural or otherwise!
our surname could not be worse though, if judged on that alone our kids ( and DH and his family) would possibly be unemployable!
When Katie Hopkins was on The Apprentice, shrewd Nick dismissed her as a 'gameplayer'. He was right. She's invited onto This Morning to cause a shitstorm and boost their ratings. As she has undoubtedly delivered this time, the next time she approaches them with a 'discussion' idea, they'll book her like a shot. Who wins? This Morning. And Katie. The rest of us are suckers.
First of all people would be very silly and nasty to forbid their child to play with a child with a strange name.
However the bottom line point is that in life in general certain things about people do have an impact on their ability to get jobs - plenty of Asians have submitted job applications as John Smith to discover racism at play when before they had used their real name and not got an interview. That is very sad and very wrong and illegal but it does happen.
It is worth teenagers being shown that for some jobs you need to wear particular clothes which may be more middle class than the child is and perhaps best not to drop your Ts and say Haitch and you was. It is not that hard to adapt yourself to whatever type of job you want with a few accent and clothes changes really and you think that is dreadful then don't do it and seek jobs where those things may not matter. However to pretend they don't matter is silly as they do,.
We picked old testament names deliberately for all 5 children as they tend not to date (we're not Jewish). My parents picked the names of ex monarchs of England for us which again tends never to be held against you.
Hero was one of the main female characters in Midsummers Night Dream. FWIW Hero/Hiro is Japanese. Don't be so quick to deride or dismiss names just because they don't seem familiar to you.
Lweji there is that, and they would also be very sociable and pull in a large crowd of friends.
I just feel sorry for Katie's children, having such a horrid mother.
(and for the record, the nastiest child so far from all my son's mates was a Monty.....)
She has a point insofar as certain names or indeed any misspelt name gives a certain impression.
I do judge parents who give their children wildly outlandish names or misspelt names. I don't judge the children because - it's not their fault is it. It's not a "class" thing, some names are just plain bad/ridiculous and it really doesn't matter what "class" the parents are in,it doesn't excuse the name.
Katie Hopkins is outrageously unpleasant and I thought bar the first 30 seconds of the clip I saw she was wrong.
Ok so you've ascertained that Chardonnay is from a working class background - so you won't let your daughters play with her?! Erm...*WHAT*?!How utterly vile.
Amazing to see the amount of mumsnetters so up in arms about KH's comments considering the amount of judginess there is about my son's name - Jayden!
My DDs boyfriend would be judged as 'chavy' on MN. I must admit when she first told me his name I thought 'wtf were his parents thinking?' I didn't prejudge him though.
However thankfully it hadnt affected him in the work place. He's 25 and has been headhunter twice in the past 2 years in a pretty MC environment. He's on an absolute fortune
I hope we are moving more towards America where there are lawyers, Drs, politicians etc etc with very unusual names. The more that happens the less our society will judge. I hope we have a Pm one day called Wayne. That would be fab!
Or I should add, a PM called Chardonnay.
I watched the clip on "this morning" (whilst I was entering one of their competitions) and I couldn't quite believe what I was hearing. I wouldn't be surprised if this narrow minded, selfish, mean, up her own posh backside, call yourself a lady???? gets totally snubbed by parents that know her. Apart from obviously the minority of spiteful, snobby parents that feel the same way!!!!!
In today's society, whatever the race, class or postcode, there is GOOD and BAD little people & adults everywhere! Now for whatever reason, these 'bad/spiteful/human beings are NOT THAT WAY INCLINED BECAUSE OF THEIR NAME OR LOWER CLASS WORKING/NOT WORKING BACKGROUND!!! Talk about stereo typing people!!!
I just hope if I ever meet a lawyer (or another professional highflyer), he or she isn't of the same opinion of that mean lady, who some poor child has the misfortune to call her their mother!!
There ends my rant!! Now for all those lovely, nice, kind parents out there (whatever your income), enjoy the sunshine & have a fab weekend! xx
amazingmumof6. It's fine to snigger at the fact that a child is called Hero is it. I think that is very unfair
Especially as Hero is a name of middle eastern origin, or it could be Hiro from the Far East.
What do people teach their children if they are judging others by their name ( or the car they drive, what they look like or any one of 100 socio economic factors)
Judge people by their deeds or actions if you have to judge on anything.
I feel sure I've seen MNers slag off Katie as a chav name...
I judge KH for encouraging other people to be small-minded twats like herself. I never heard of her until this furore, hopefully she'll sink quickly back into obscurity where her idiotic opinions belong.
Unfortunately I don't think that will happen lljkk, she's always spouting snobby rubbish. The media seem to hire her as someone who will start an argument.
The producers of This Morning will be thrilled at all this publicity and Miss Hopkins will be back on that programme before you know it. It's all a game.
I would be interested to know if you can apply similar tests to Indian and Pakistani names if we have any posters from those cultures. Does your name for example show your caste or religion?
You can judge a child's parent on their child's name because they picked it. And as the child is brought up by the parents according to their parent's beliefs, morals and ideals you could get some idea of what a child would be like.
A child called Tyson might not spend his days reading poetry.
Little Agamemnon might not be a champion of the Xbox at age 7.
Zhang Wei might not be a Welsh speaker.
A lot of the stuff about how 'the same names come up again and again in court/as troublemakers/in child protection work, etc' is probably due to confirmation bias.
Take for example 'the dreaded Calum'. Calum is a really popular name now so there are loads of Calum's. This makes the odds of a Calum being the 'naughty boy' in your/your child's class higher (than for less popular names). You take notice when Calum does turn out to be the 'naughty boy' (in your opinion) because it confirms your own stereotype (and in doing so reinforces your stereotype). You're also more likely to interpret Calum's behaviour as 'naughty' where for a child you don't negatively stereotype based on name you may well interpret the behaviour in different ways. This also reinforces your stereotype.
Whereas when little Thomas (a name you stereotype positively) is badly behaved, it doesn't reinforce your stereotype and you see it as an exception. (The same for when Calum's behave well; you see this as an exception to the stereotypical rule, and therefore disregard it). When Thomas is well behaved, it reinforces your stereotype.
It does not, however, mean that Calums are actually more naughty than children with names you approve of.
The fact that so many Irish names are considered déclassé on this is probably a hangover from the kind of anti-Irish racism that was so prevalent in the 1960s. Instead of putting up 'No Irish' signs people sneer at children being given Irish names. Same for the sneering at names generally associated with black communities, and names associated with the working classes.
The answer isn't for people to stop giving their children names associated with cultures that differ from middle class cultures in the Home Counties though. It really is for people to really reflect on what their prejudices are and stop pretending it's just about names...
Wiki mentions video of KH having sex in a field (but that's not Chavvy oh no...); am I allowed to tell DC to steer clear of people who get caught on broadcast video shagging in fields? I would have thought that was a lot better basis than worrying about forenames.
I have a very unusual name, never met another and only found others when I googled it and found them abroad - it sounds very posh and has always been a talking point. My mum had wanted a name no one else had and she found it in a book about Boaedicea and loved it. My best friend at school had an unusual Japanese name (wouldn't be unusual there) as her parents named her after their Japanese friend. Her name brought back happy memories and reminded them of a lovely person.
I think it's far more important to have a name that is personal to you and it's lovely to have a story behind it - whatever the name rather than fitting in with what is deemed middle class or timeless and not considered chavvy at that time.
In 1990 I met someone called Brittany - I thought it was the most beautiful name. It was when Britney appeared it was considered chavvy......but in another 50 years it could be considered beautiful.
DH and I chose our daughter's name because we wanted a name with a happy positive meaning. We think it is a beautiful name - it was inspired from our fave tv programme but it just felt right and she suits it. I think names are a very personal thing and it's quite sad reading how snobbish some people can be. I certainly do not judge any of my daughter's friends by their names. It just seems very very shallow.
The Chantel I know is a GP. Names become chavvy long after some people were given them.
I might judge the name but I wouldn't judge the child. Everyone forms opinions on names based on previous experience of who is likely to name their child a certain name, but I wouldn't stop ds playing with Kylie, Wayne, Montgomery-Marmaduke or Toyah. Unless they are not good playmates for other reasons but those reasons are universal nothing to do with perceived class.
katie hopkins is an absolute ANIMAL and i feel sorry for her children. If you ever see any pictures of them in the press they are never smiling and look very unhappy.
Why anyone is wasting any brain space on this topic. ALL children should be protected from any type pf prejudice whatever their background, religion and now name ? really?
Come on people get real ...
I agree Bugsaway. Who is Katie Hopkins anyway ?
One of DS's best friends is called Zayden. He's lovely and so are his parents. But again, the whole class thing is different here.
Fwiw I "suss out" anyone who wants my child to come play, whether they have children named Rayder or Alexander. And actually DS is allowed to play at Rayder's house but not Alexander's as Alexander is not well supervised and they have a pool and guns. Alexander is welcome at ours, however.
I think Katie Hopkins is hilarious TBH. She is a clever woman and she know swhat she is saying is outrageous.
In fact, anyone who wastes time deliberating over whether or not a particular name is chavvy is a bit sad.
I agree, though with what randomusername says
The fact that so many Irish names are considered déclassé on this is probably a hangover from the kind of anti-Irish racism that was so prevalent in the 1960s. Instead of putting up 'No Irish' signs people sneer at children being given Irish names. Same for the sneering at names generally associated with black communities, and names associated with the working classes.
Guess what, I have an Irish name and so do all of my children. Frankly, though, I couldn't give a flying f**K about what people think of our names
yes shes essentially making money out of this in the long run ... ask yourself how dumb are people to even entertain the idea ... further how stupid do all these mothers look now? think about how utterly stupid you all sound
katie hopkins is no friend of women and now seemingly no friend of children
This thread feels a bit like we're feeding the troll. She probably has aspirations of a private secondary school for her little darlings, and not much in the way of talent to pay the fees, so is
doing a bit of a Samantha Brick making ridiculous commnets to keep herself in the press.
She came across in the clip I watched as being a bit unhinged to be honest.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
I think the people born into money who are normally down to earth will be looking at KH, thinking what a twat.
WC people will look at her and think what a twat.
Either way she's a twat.
In a way though she is right, I too have met people like her her judge children and parents because of their chosen names.
I suppose its entertaining if you like somebody making a twat out of themselves.
I loved Hollies end to the interview. No thanks etc. Just "Stop it there".
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Didn't see interview but agree with tiggyd
you can judge a child's parent on their child's namr because they picked it
Based on this I am glad I chose to give my children non-British names!!
Then they won't be "assigned" to a social class and branded from birth...
YANBU. My name is Dale and I'm female. I get judged on it all the time, and it's just plain irritating. Although, I do like having quite an unusual name.
I went to school with a girl called Dale, I always though she had a cool name
People should not judge a child by it's name; After all, No child chooses it's own name. A freind of mine always thought that babies should be given a number until they could choose their own name! What a horrible thought
People shouldn't judge a child by their name but it is disingenuous to say people presume a particular background when hearing a particular name. Tarquin and Lacie-Mae are examples of names automatic assumptions are made about.
*disingenuous to think people don't.
My 'suss out' comment seems to have hit a nerve! Can I add in my defence that there is a child whose name is a creatively-spelled version of 'Destiny' who would be welcome in my house any day of the week, and several Jacobs who wouldn't
My point is that when somebody gives their child a silly name there is a greater chance that they are silly people. Therefore in my head I am checking them out more before I would let my child go to theirs. I suspect many people would have the same thought process, but are just less honest about it.
As for the unfortunate Casino mentioned upthread, my initial suspicion was that her parents were almost certainly fuckwits to name a child Casino. In this case my surmise was correct.
Galaxymum good post about reflecting on what our actual prejudices are, and to stop pretending it's about names. I guess I don't modern/unisex/McAmerican names, so maybe because I try to follow the rules and be traditional and play the game, I feel confused by people with as I would see it
bad taste but really what is hard to fathom is that they don't give a fuck about tradition, class, spelling! Very good point you make there and it has made me think.
Yes of course I do.
And I judge them by their clothes, hairstyle and whether or not they have pierced ears at Primary School.
And anyone who says they don't is probably not being being very honest with themselves.
It works both ways by the way ...
Merguez Genuinely intrigued... why can't an 11 year old girl have her ears pierced?
was thinking more of the younger end of primary school Allegra ...
It is true that names do tend to indicate class but where I completely disagree with Katie Hopkins - I would NEVER choose who my children are friends with. Whatever class background you come from, it can be good for you to mix with everyone.
My DD got her ears pierced at 9, and we're posh :-p Well posh in Ireland. But as some people in my family have Irish names then maybe that rings hollow here on this thread. My dd had been begging me for years and I had a moment of lucidity. I just thought, "why don't I make her happy and say yes to something so harmless and spare myself the next few years of nagging?". Glad I buckled.
I had my ears pierced at 7, through much persuasion of my mum. She went by the view that I was old enough to understand that it's a permanent fixture, painful and could cause me a fair amount of damage if not looked after properly. Which I did. She had also given me a fair amount of time to be sure that I wanted to get my ears pierced (two years, I believe) and I remember vividly her saying that "you can get them done when you're seven" when I was five years old.
What merguez said.
and anyone who says they don't is probably not being very honest with themselves
Judge kids, by all means, if you have to.
But on that particular child's manner, work ethic, behaviour, how they treat your child. Not superficial things like names and appearance - things that the child has no control over.
And anyone who says they don't is probably not being being very honest with themselves
Really? I don't. And I am being honest with myself.
Well I have lived in 6 countries, you see, so recognise most of the things that you say for what they are, local small mindedness.
I know many women called Mercedes, for example. It is an upper-class standard catholic name in one of the countries I have lived in. If it conjures up an image in me, it is that of an affluent, well educated woman.
I have given my children names called chavvy in this thread. Dh and I are private school educated, oxbridge graduates. We chose those names as they are pronounceable in most of the languages we and our children have to operate in. The fact that we liked them as well was a bonus. The fact that people consider them chavvy is completely irrelevant to us.
Well I am posh by anybody's standards, and my DDs all got their ears pierced when they wanted to as long as they were old enough (imo) to take proper care of them by themselves while healing. Two of them had their ears done at age 7.
The DCs all have family names. One of them should really have a hyphen in it but I decided not to use it as it would have complicated form-filling. Their names are all over the place, ethnically-speaking - French to Irish to Shakespeare to OT to Greek/Russian but they are names and middle names that you might identify as Irish Catholic if you looked at them all in a list; DS is the dead giveaway with an Irish name.
I seriously considered the very Catholic Chantal as a mn for DD1 after dropping Jane Chantal from consideration as her full name. She ended up with a French double-barrelled first/middle name, and Chantal would have been lovely as the mn. I chose a French (and family) name instead of Jane. It's a bit to me to see the name Chantal (and its variations) castigated. It's every bit as pedigreed a name as Elizabeth, Margaret, etc.
There are names that are not to my taste and names I like. Among my own ancestors there are some real corkers. The children who have passed over my threshold are the dear children of people with their own taste in all things, names included. I can have an opinion on their taste and I am sure they have an opinion on mine. But I think it's important to examine where taste ends and prejudice begins.
In the end the judgement of others when it's based on outward appearance or something as random as a name often says far more about the ignorance or prejudice or insecurity of the judge than about the judged. I myself have an Irish name and it bothers me that someone might find me perfectly acceptable if I used the English version but might look down their nose at me for having the Irish one.
Liara -- Well I have lived in 6 countries, you see, so recognise most of the things that you say for what they are, local small mindedness
Have done similar and agree.
My dc have traditional names because I have always known there are narrow minded, shallow people who judge people on their name amongst other things.
I just think its a shame to go through life like that, because it must mean that people who do this think they are somehow better than others.
I absolutely judge children/adults by their behaviour and 'niceness' to other children/ adults and animals.
To be frank I can usually see good in a child who is gentle to an animal.
Judge in a name? Fucking mental twattishness.
Absolutely Mathanxiety, it's an opinion on their taste! I recognise it as that. I am being honest with myself. I do understand that it is taste, and what we've been exposed to, what we understand, that shapes our taste. But I can leave it there I think. It doesn't have to be prejudice.
I agree that some of the comments people make only reveal their own limited knowledge of the wider World, beyond the home counties! I have seen on the names board names that sound quite respectable to me labelled chavvy. Although I'm not Catholic myself I am Irish so I can tell if a child's name is after a French Saint. Mumsnetters just call "chav". And they are gasp shshhs wrong.
I think you can tell just as much about a family that names their child Elizabeth as one that names their child Chardonnay. We all make choices based on our perceptions. So to answer the question I don't 'judge' but I do make inferences.
And I wouldn't judge the child as nothing whatsoever to do with them.
I named my children Samuel and Margaret, what does that say about me? And is it different than if they were Sam and Maggie, which they are often called? (DD is not quite 6 weeks and we haven't decided if she's a Maggie or Margaret for every day just yet. )
Samuel nn Sam is classic. I can't imagine a young Margaret because the only one I've ever met is my fabulous great aunt who is touching 70 now. But as I say,she's fab. I can imagine a v young Maggie growing into it no problem.
They're classic names aren't they. Solid classic names with nicknames.
20wkbaby, If you had made the inferences I think you might have made about the family of the Elizabeth and her husband [insert classic name] who lived above me until about 6 weeks ago you would have been dead wrong.
That woman was hell on wheels and so was her classically named husband. Their flat is still not ready for re-renting even though a crew of workmen has been up there all day every day since they left with their big unfriendly dogs and their two unfortunate children. First it had to be cleaned and fumigated and then they set about repairing holes in walls, broken windows, toilet knocked off its seal, doors off hinges, wood floors ruined and appliances that had to be replaced. The mouse problem we had all been experiencing in the building stopped as soon as the top floor was emptied and the fumigators went in.
Oh and there is no more smell of skunk either now that they're gone.
The idea of controlling who your children are friends with based on their names is crazy. I would imagine her children will quickly work out what winds her up and will possibly take delight in doing just that when they are older.
Unfortunately, you could judge DD2s class exactly by their names.
My DDs you absolutely can't. Both names are very ordinary, despite DD1 sharing hers with the DD of the local seriously wealthy land owner and DD2 with royalty.
Who is Katie Hopkins ??? Never heard of her!!!!
As a teacher I do associate names with types of children. However, that doesn't mean I believe I know all children. I generally find Jordan's are quite naughty, but have also come across some amazing and lovely Jordans.
oh dear Ilove, you are going to get slated for that ' ! I agree, there are certain characteristics that coincidentally seem to follow a name but there are, as you say, exceptions.
Slated for saying I generally find... But then have come across amazing and lovely?
That's what I was going for when I named them, I think, Ali. Although both of them ended up having my "like this, but not" name. As in, all through my pregnancy I said things like "a name LIKE Sam, but NOT Sam" and then we ended up with that. Same with Margaret.
There are plenty of names I like but wouldn't choose because they're not "us." I have a good friend who is really hipster-ish and cool and has a Clover and a Phoenix. I'd never in a million years pick those but they really suit her vibe.
ILove for me it's Connor, but I still think it's a lovely name. Also Matthew. My brother is a Matthew and he's awful.
It was hilarious when she said she would judge people if their child had a "place name" and it turned out her daughter was called India
I think what was the most unpleasant thing about that hideous interview was not her assertion that names conjure up pre-conceptions about people, because come on, in all honesty, if you knew that a Hugo/Ignatius/Mungo or a Clementine/Henrietta/Hermione was coming to tea, would you really not have an idea about their likely background? For me, though, it was the sneering, snobby, judgey way she spoke about children in general.
It's the hardest thing to chose a name anyway, without worrying about stigma and what other people might think. Latte, Diamanté and Kray aren't really for me, but if that floatsyour boat then go for it. Just be prepared to help your child deal with the stick they might get, and hopefully they will grow into it and become strong for it. A lot of people become 'like' their names. I got stick for wanting to call my boy Joe. Not Joseph, or Jonathan , but just Joe. We debated, we argued, we went with the plan B as we couldn't decide, but when he was born he was just a Joe, and it suits him perfectly. Although, to quote my father in-law, you can't have just Joe on a business card......oh well.
Surely the major problem with KH is that, regardless of her horrendous name snobbery, she doesn't want her kids mixing with those of a 'lower class'. Thats what is truly appalling!
I have taught many children that never do their homework and are always late for school, and have 'lower class' names that are some of the kindest, funniest most wonderful children. Ones that I would love my DC to be friends with.
Her children are missing out on their lives being enriched by lovely children because she is a horrid snob. Sad really.
I wouldn't want my DC going to her house on a playdate with attitudes like that.
This not doing your homework thing!!
I sometimes sign off my ds2's homework when he hasn't done it! shock horror! He has a respectable name though, so that cancels it all out I guess :-p
I did overhear my uncle saying that my daughter's name was terribly graaaaaaande for an unmarried mother. YUPP he said that. And.I.Heard. and tbh when I know that there are people out there who think like that, I'm glad that I have 'cheated' and fooled them (evil laugh) by giving my children respectable names.
All of you who make comments about what different names conjure up to you are judging them.
It does not mean you are judging them badly or well, just that a person's name is one of the things we all use to help us form an opinion about someone when we first meet them, along with a whole raft of other things.
For example, my grandmother was called Doris. If I came across another Doris I would expect that person to be a fairly elderly lady. That is a type of judgement.
Of course, using names as a basis to decide who your children should be friends with is completely wrong.
I wonder if KH is aware that half the kids in her DC's classes have parents who don't want them playing with Poppy, India and Max either. Not because of their names, (and I suspect they're lovely kids, to be fair)but because they have a hideously unpleasant mother.
Didn't she also once say she was embarrassed that her husband came from Essex and his accent was therefore common?
I fear Gravity's name will drag her down.
A week ago I would have maintained that I was not judgey at all - I couldn't care less if my daughter plays with Tyler or Connor or Chardonnay. But then I met a little girl called Lolita on Thursday. And I winced. And I judged her parents BIG TIME.
you are a genius!
There was a funny storyline in the Archers once in which a son told his mother he was bringing home a girlfriend called "Nisha". Cue lots of comedy anxiety about whether the young lady would be OK eating meat and 2 veg or require a curry. "Nisha" turned out to be Venetia, posher than posh. The mother's 180 degree attitude about - turn was Hopkinsesque. The son did it on purpose.
She's an idiot, doesn't like children named after geographical locations and calls her child India, doesn't like children named after flowers and names another one Poppy, her own children aren't even up to her own playdate standards
I dont get why its posh to be called India but naff to be Chelsea
The only difference is twenty years. India is not posh is it. It is aspirational. So, as KH says, no I wouldn't expect an India to be from an under privileged background but I'd expect the parents to be 'aspirational' sorry if that sounds like a dirty word.
attila I completely agree, taylor tyler chardonnay, who cares really but Lolita omg.
I think this kind of judging is an issue because there is a general correlation between certain names and social class, just due to local familiarity and popularity I suppose. There will always be exceptions but you often can tell someone's background from their name, making it really important that we don't add to any subconscious prejudice by outright and deliberate judgement.
I do think the correlation is very general though and the excceptions not uncommon.
I work in a pretty posh private school and, over the last few years, I have taught children called:
Chantelle, Anastasia, Arabella, Gavin, Riley, Hugo, Joshua, Oliver, Savannah, Darren, Lili-Mai, Tristan, India, Connor, Paris, Jasmine, Hayden, Jemima, Karissa, Albert, Frederick, Orlando, Florence, Declan, Jordan and many others at opposite ends of the judgement scale.
Similarly I worked in a state school in a very deprived and notorious area and taught children called:
Kelsey, Chelsea, Elizabeth, Damon, Declan, Olivia, Callum, Sebastian, Jamie-Lee and Rebecca.
Both those lists contain names automatically assumed to be 'posh' and names automatically assumed to be 'chav'
Lolita is a very, very common Spanish nickname. Means little Lola, (which in turn is a nickname for Dolores, a very, very common catholic name - which incidentally means pains).
I know families where the first girl is called Dolores, so you could have 3 Dolores living in the same house (grandmother, mother and daughter). It is quite likely that one or the other of the older ones will be nicknamed Lola and the youngest will be Lolita or Loli.
Kiwiinkits you have a good point with spelling. As a teacher I have seen some crackers Kamrun, sharlot (as in harlot with an s), benjarmin, shawn, loois.... You shouldn't judge but how can you not - not judge the child but the parents obv!
Loli is common. Lolita is something you'd hear said to a child more than you'd see typed or written. It's such a pet name. Dolores is dated, so the last time there were a lot of little girl lolitas would have been a while back?
Anyway, it's not really appropriate in an English speaking environment. granted in spain it just means little Loli, (sorrows) but the context and the perceptions are different to English speakers.
See, I (inwardly) smirked a bit when KH was talking, as I view India as a bit common.
Not that that's a view I would ever have voiced, had she not been being so horrid about others' name choices.
I was thinking about this today <saddo alert> if she had said 'I wouldn't allow my children to play with x,y or z because of the colour of their skin or because they have a disability' it would almost be unthinkable but because she is saying 'I won't let them play with them because of their name' she somehow thinks this is acceptable.
In my mind it is prejudice and sterotying on par with the above and just as sickening. It also makes me really sad that her kids will grow up with this sort of attitude and think thats o.kay.
knowing that people like her judge and choose friends (for their dcs) based on the names, makes me wished I had called my kids Chardonnay/Tyler....it works as a useful twat-filter in the other direction
Just took a look at an American friend's ds's FB friends list: Carr, Spenser, Turner, Logan, Zane, Clay, Trent, Baker, Dewey, Grayson, Dawson, Wilson, Hunter, Garrett, Miller, Travis, Harris, Slade, Parker, Nolan, Davis, Kellen, Reid.
Half of these sound to me to be surnames. It's a US thing clearly, but these are kids from VERY affluent homes.
just because you said that, now I wonder if that's what it is!
Is that what she is doing?!
she can't reject the kids based on those things you mentioned, so she's invented a fake excuse, which is of course a ridiculous one, but not unacceptable!
Now I want to know whether any of the children she rejected would fall into a group she can not discriminate against directly!
disclaimer: I meant "not unacceptable" as in there's no law against it and she is free to carry on.
I haven't even see the clip, but based on this thread I would never agree with her!
JollyGoose I think the same...here Georgia is okay, but Dakota is downmarket. They're both states!
I think it's a vile thing to do, and after watching that imbacile on this morining I was reminded of the attitude of so many on here utter vile.
I never once took ibto consideration "class" in naming my children. I think to do so is a tell tale sign you're crying out to be seen as something your really not.
I have been torn to shreds on here with my dds names (kayla, Derry and Jorgie) told that my youngest was named after a porn star and wouldn't amount to much!! People that would judge mine or. Any other child in my opinion are vile.
There are plenty of names myself and dh didn't like for us but we would never dream of passing judgement on someone who does like them.
I think the bigger question is how much money did they pay her to spout these clearly ridiculous views, and how badly is she in debt.
Not sure I'll be employing her as a business consultant any time soon. She is clearly desperate.
Girlie: names are definitely just a proxy for other kinds of prejudice. When people sneer about Kai and Chanel, it's straightforward class prejudice dressed up as a question of 'taste'. It can also be a form of racism dressed up as taste. As Bordieu as pointed out, taste is not some purely aesthetic response but a practice of social judgement and a means of making social distinctions.
The funny thing is that in 100 year's time Kai and Chanel will be the Maisie and Alfie of their day.
(And I say that as somebody who loves retro baby names)
My mil named my dh a posh English name despite being half Asian just so that he would be accepted more. So a lot of people must be on the side of Katie Hopkins despite the uproar in what she said..
I would not judge anyone based on their names but I do laugh when I hear silly names (and there are a lot more now than when I was growing up!)
I am at the negative associations being made with beautiful Irish boys' names? I have no idea what that is all about in the UK. conor, liam, ciaran, sean (shaun), ciara (keira), sinead, caoimhe (kweeva), aoife (eefa) are all everyday gorgeous names in Ireland with absolutely no negative connotations! of course people are judged in some way by their names but many of the names mentioned above are as ordinary as john, Thomas etc in their home countries. would a family here with an Amelia, Harriet and George be judged? by some, yes undoubtedly, people might assume the family was English. ...
I have had that farewellfarewell, I have a Brendan and a Rory. I specifically called him Rory to avoid spelling issues, but apparently it is "chav" and "Ruairi" would have been higher class (despite being pronounced entirely differently!).
I think to be fair that the negative assocations with Irish boys' names reflect the history of Irish people in Britain being poor and there is an unconscious anti-Irish sentiment attached to it.
Interestingly, people are aware that it isn't okay to talk about names like Ali, Abdul or Muawiyah in a way that betrays anti-Muslim sentiment but they seem unaware of the implicit judgement, snobbery and xenophobia in reacting to Irish names as often happens.
TBH, I am waiting for the day when KH is wheeled out to spout off yet more views and someone brings up her not so pure past on live TV. That might stir things up a bit.
I know people who use an English sounding name on job applications and CVs, and they say it does affect whether they are invited for interview
I think many people tend to make assumptions on people based on their name - their age, gender, social class and ethnicity. It's human nature, and based on patterns we see every day. For example, most Ednas I have met are elderly, most Sanjits are of Asian origin, most Horatios are a bit posh, most Aoifes are Irish. However, I have a friend called Chardonnay who is a trainee solicitor, and another friend's baby was delivered by a doctor called Rocky, so assumptions are not always correct. And to go from making an (possibly incorrect) assumption about a child's ethnicity or family background based on their name, to stopping your children from playing with them, is snobbery at its worst.
spaniel your right I think. It may be reasonable to assume 'Chardonnay' and 'Rocky' are workig class but unreasonable to think they can't be doctors/lawyers or won't be suitable friends
It's only people like Katie watserface missing out though
TheSecondComing I know a Tristam who's parents are on benefits! Don't know what class they'd be considered as though.
I do tend to judge the parents. For example I interviewed a Richard Goodhead once. What were his parents thinking?!
I remember once seeing a little toddler called Audrey about 10 years ago and I was really surprised, thinking, who these days would call their daughter Audrey? Yet now I think its completely normal and I know of a few little Audreys. Names are very much of the time.
Regardless of class, there are lots of connotations of Poppy, Poppy-Mae, Lily-Mae, Lily, Rose, Lacey, Archie, Harry..I know of a little Phoenix and an Izabellah. They are all names that in 40 years will feel like middle aged names like Claire, Julie, Richard, Kevin etc do now.
I'd imagine that Richard Goodhead's parents named him long before slang made his name ridiculous. There is absolutely no way you can future-proof a child's name.
Is she really a consultant? Blimey! Stupid woman to express views like those if she has any sort of sensible career.
He was born in 1990. I think that it would have been just as amusing then. But I was only 13 then, so I don't know.
Yes. It does seem a slightly odd choice in 1990, even if it was absolutely fine in 1948. I can only assume it was a family name.
I think the word Dick as slang for penis started sometime in the late 1800's.
Obviously the name Richard was in use hundreds of years earlier but even in Shakespeare's time it was being shortened and the name Dick was being already being used as slang to mean men/man in the street. Shakespeare used "every Tom, Dick and Francis" in the way we say "Tom, Dick and Harry" as a way to say 'everybody' or 'every man'.
But I think by the 1890's Dick was being used as Military slang in particular to mean penis.
So unless PriyaKoothrappali's interview subject was very, very old, his parents must have known what they were doing to him with that name.
It's the goodhead combination with Richard that is probably newer though.
X-posted. He wasn't old at all. Parents must have known. I was fifteen in 1990 and you couldn't move at school without someone calling you a dick for something.
Yes, that might be newer. We didn't cover goodhead in English lessons .
But I would still guess that they knew. Certainly at school at the time there was a lot of graffiti along the lines of "X gives good head" etc.
And to draw on random references, because I really don't want to google "good head", I remember the 1970's remake of King Kong, where the lead actress makes a reference to the film Deep Throat, released a couple of years before the KK remake.
I haven't seen DT but I suspect that it, and other films like it in the 70's/80's, had put 'good head' in the public vocabulary well before this boy's parents decided that Richard went well with their surname.
Yes, I would agree that the parents should have been well aware that the name Richard goodhead would raise eyebrows/guffaws in 1990. If he'd been born in the 40s or 50s, I can see that they might have thought nothing of the name. But you'd have to have been living in a box for decades not to give it some thought in 1990.
I also interviewed someone with the name Butt. However, the whole family as a oner, changed their name by deedpoll and when we asked him why, he said 'WE JUST DID..ALRIGHT???!!' . sorry. I have drifted from the point of the original OP .
Chardonnay Falulla Smith.
We know MN judge by names in a horrific way!
We all know Tarquin and Octavias shop at waitrose and eat humous...
Rupert and any slightly posh sounding names have been slammed to high heavens over the years on here!
They named the Bond girl in Moonraker Holly Goodhead in 1979, so unless someone's going to argue that that was an entirely innocent choice...?
Speaking of Bond Girls - Pussy Galore. Totally innocent of course . No judgements to be made there.
Also speaking of Bond - forget the girls questionable names, what about Roger Moore?
I can across a paediatrician called Roger Young once, which I felt was unfortunate.
DP and his siblings are Edward, Hugo and Cindy.
If you think they don't match, then you judge names.
I know of quite a few families whose older child/ren have quite 'conservative' names then they have a younger one with a more 'liberal' name. It's often as if the parents have relaxed and don't care what people think anymore and choose the name they've always loved. For example I know a Sarah and her younger sister Coralie.
I went to school with a Andy Niblock and he was OBVIOUSLY called Randy Noblick for six years.
Priyakoothrappali, interesting theory.
PriyaKoothrappali - agreed!
I'm not sure the whole Dick and Willy thing makes any difference though to people naming their children Richard and William. They are very traditional names and the shortened versions are just part of being a bloke.
Fanny being feminine and therefore utterly disgusting has died a death.
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