To feel very sorry for Raffaele Sollecito?(268 Posts)
He was interviewed on that turgid telly programme Daybreak this morning. He has a re-trial hanging over his head and says he doesn't know how much longer he can go on.
I'm in the 'they weren't involved' camp, but even if I wasn't, he was acquitted of the crime he was accused of. Surely it isn't right to dangle this over his head forever. Imagine living with that. Must be awful.
I remarked that I felt sorry for him to another parent this morning who was discussing it and she said "Well your sympathy is misplaced." I don't think that I am being U in feeling sympathy for him, or Amanda Knox.
I totally agree. Anyone who has read anything at all by the more impartial journalists vs the gutter press will know this was all a load of old bollocks. There is NO evidence to accuse either AK or RS of this crime. They have the murderer locked up. It must also be awful for Meredith's family to have to keep going over and over it. Why can not they let her rest in peace.
I couldn't have hacked such pressure at such a young age. I would have probably topped myself if I were in their shoes.
The Kercher family are so dignified. I am amazed at how they have conducted themselves.
I feel sorry for him too.
Err, well, Amanda Knox accused an innocent man of being a murderer. So to feel much sympathy for her is entirely misplaced, IMO. I don't know a great deal about this case so can't comment on raffaele sollecito.
She was questioned, intensely, without a break or translator and was coerced into naming the man who owned the bar that Meredith worked at.
Re-trials are incredibly hard on everyone. I think a situation where anyone cannot afford to defend themselves in criminal proceedings is deplorable (and the situation for the vast majority of us in the UK now, which terrifies me). So to a degree, I do feel sorry for him.
But there has to be a retrial. Conviction quashed on appeal. Acquittal quashed on appeal. So we start again, in the hope of a definitive result. Which everyone, including Sollecito, desperately needs.
I have just donated to his appeal fund. He cannot cover the costs needed to get a decent lawyer and is already in debt trying to cover the previous trial legal fees. And he is being criticised for "cashing in" by writing a book. Poor bloke.
She did and she was convicted of slander as a result. I'm sorry, but fourteen hours of questioning do not excuse naming an innocent man who had absolutely nothing to do with this terrible murder.
14 hours of questioning in a foreign language excuses a lot. Who knows what you might say after 14 hours if you thought it might bring an end to the questions, especially if your friend had been murdered, you didn't know who did it and pressure was being put upon you to speculate.
It seems unlikely that these two were completely uninvolved surely? There is just too much circumstantial evidence and incoherence / changes in their testimonies?
What I meant is that she didn't volunteer that false information without a lot of goading and aggressive questioning. Questions were posed to her in a language she didn't understand at that time. She says that she was manipulated and that if she named a guilty party, she would be free to go. I'd say that combination of fear, confusion and naivety led her to naming the bar owner.
The books are disttatesful. But like so many of these 'My Trial Ordeal' books, they have been written to earn enough to pay legal fees, not really for any kind of celebrity. At least his family have been more dignified and thoughtful re the Kercher family than Amanda Knox's.
I really feel for the Kerchers having to go through the retrial. They must be desperate to have a conclusion to this.
Noble giraffe, I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to differ on that, she speaks fluent Italian and I just don't think it can be excused away. Lumumba's life was ruined by this false accusation and he was nowhere near their flat at the time of the incident.
She learned Italian in jail. She didn't speak fluent Italian at the time of her arrest.
I don't recall Knox's family being disrespectful?
I would be fucking hysterical if my daughter was locked up in a jail, thousands of miles from home, for a crime she wasn't responsible for.
Fair enough re Italian fluency, I take that back. I'm sorry but I still don't agree re implicating an innocent man. And as an entirely separate defamation trial drew the same conclusion by convicting Knox, I think the weight of opinion is on my side, for what that's worth.
There's no way either of them had zero involvement & someone must be accountable for Meridith's death. Someone, one of them is guilty and only they themselves know. You would think forensics and the like would pick up the perpatrator and the killer be accountable!
They gave a couple of rather unfortunate US interviews at one stage, Marmalade. There was no need to say anything about the Kerchers (and the Sollecitos duly didn't), but they did. Sounded rather petulant. As if the Kerchers owed them anything, for God's sake.
Well, the forensics in this case were extremely badly managed... evidence handled by hands that weren't gloved, evidence booted around the floor, thus picking up the DNA of anyone that had been in that room (Knox/Sollecito)
Just out of interest Pumpkin, what makes you so sure they were involved? If this had happened in this country, it is widely thought that they wouldn't have even been arrested.
Pumpkin, they've got the guy who did it, he's in jail. His DNA was all over the scene, and a bloody handprint.
I have been in conversation with people working as diplomatic service. The evidence may have been mishandled, thereby precluding a safe conviction. I think the feeling is that they have been very lucky.
Sorry - lucky to be acquitted entirely.
I've also been keeping up to date with this trial and have to admit I've become at times obsessed. At first I truly believed that they were guilty - there seemed to be some many things that didn't add up. Why did she turn her phone off? Why did she act so weird after they found the body? How convenient that they both smoked cannabis and couldn't remember anything.
However, the more I read the more I truly and forcefully believe that the evidence was not even there to arrest, let alone convict them. There is no admissible DNA of the two of them at the scene of the crime. The one guy who no one disputes did it, Rudy, ran away - completely out of the country - and was only caught after he was arrested for not paying a fare on a train and his finger prints/DNA were matched with the crime. He was also found with the key to Meredith's room in his pocket! This is all stuff that's barely reported!
In the meantime, while they didn't have Rudy, the local police decide to concoct a story that AK and Patrick met up. Patrick had texted Amanda saying she didn't need to work, and she texted back (in broken Italian) words to the effect 'OK, see you later'. The police took that to literally mean that she had made plans to see him later. So they decided they must have done it together.
The police pressured her and after 14 hours in a language that she only vaguely knew without a lawyer, she did cave. Personally, I like to think I wouldn't have, but she did. And immediately after she woke up (even though she STILL didn't have a lawyer) she retracted the statement. But people never seem to focus on that!
I am also considering donating to the legal fees because I feel that this is a horrible miscarriage of justice and I feel for them both. They are never going to be able to get normal jobs, and looking at AK now it looks like she has visibly suffered, you can see she's lost a lot of hair and her face looks drawn - so different from the naive 20 year old she was before this happened.
I really feel mostly for the Kercher family, because the Italian legal system just doesn't seem to be delivering justice for them. The man who definitely did this now only has 16 years in jail.
I also feel Knox's family have actually been admirable - if it was my daughter I would also be doing everything I could to fight for her freedom.
Agree Winterwood. It is significant that there was absolutely no diplomatic pressure from the US on Knox's behalf. They were content for the Italian legal process to take its course.
Hmmm, I think that if my DD were in jail and I was convinced of her innocence, I would do any interviews offered to me. I would kick up a fuss and a half. Acting dignified would be the last thing that would occur to me, tbh.
This case really interests me too. I didn't know them personally, nor met either, but I spent my Erasmus in Perugia at the same time as Meredith and Amanda, and of course the case was everywhere in the city and I do still feel a connection to it.
I do feel, although I like to think I wouldn't, that I would have also ended up naming Lumumba, after 14 hours of non stop questioning. It was only a couple of months into the year and the general standard of Italian was not good there, and arguing and defending yourself is one of the most difficult things to do in a second language. You also hear a lot from your Italian friends about how corrupt the police and govt are (not debating whether that's true or not, but it would almost certainly have been something AK had in the back of her mind when being grilled) and having no lawyer she was completely alone. She has also already done her time for the crime of the innocent accusation.
I still don't know what I think about who killed Meredith, I don't think it was Amanda and Raffaele, but I'm not 100% confinced. I don't know why Rudy Guee's sentence was reduced so much, anyone?
If you have money to donate to a legal cause being fought with limited means, look around a bit more before choosing this one.
Rudy Guede got a reduced sentence for opting for fast-track trial. Routine in Italy.
Thanks for the advice, Winterwood, but as a 33 year old woman with all of her faculties in tact, I'll deem myself able to choose where I donate my money, thanks.
Winterwood - I'm not talking loads of money, probably only about a fiver, but as with Marmalade I do understand I can donate money elsewhere, but if I choose this cause, then that's up to me, and I certainly won't feel bad about my choice.
I donated a tenner, for the record. It's not much but hopefully many other people will feel sympathetic like I did and donate. The pounds will turn into thousands, hopefully.
YANBU in feeling sorry for Sollecito and Knox. I'm convinced of their innocence, and I was relieved when they were acquitted. I was astonished they were even convicted on the evidence they were convicted on.
Of course I feel sympathy for the Kercher family too, but I don't really understand the sense of injustice they seem to have. Someone is in jail for their daughter's murder. Ruining the lives of two other people isn't going to bring their daughter back.
matchpoint - while I agree with you on the first point, I do sort of disagree on the second.
Although I am also baffled that they are still convinced of the guilt of AK and RS, I do understand why they may be and their sense of injustice at their acquittal.
In the initial court case they were presented with a lot of evidence that seemed compelling to them at the time and the UK press tore AK to shreds. They probably felt a great sense of relief when all three were convicted, and although it couldn't possibly bring their daughter back, it must have given them a sense of closure.
Then when the retrial quashed the conviction of Amanda and Raffale, they must have been incredibly confused. The family believe without doubt that Rudy couldn't have done it alone because Meredith knew martial arts. They believe she would have fought him off. They are right though - all evidence suggests there was a huge struggle. But I really don't know how any young girl could fully fend off a guy with a knife, even with knowledge of martial arts.
It's all incredibly sad. And so much more sad that two more people have also lost their bright futures - even if they get found completely innocent there will always be people who doubt they really are innocent. They will have to live with that anxiety, which is incredibly unfair.
'Of course I feel sympathy for the Kercher family too, but I don't really understand the sense of injustice they seem to have. Someone is in jail for their daughter's murder. Ruining the lives of two other people isn't going to bring their daughter back.'
Blame the Italian police and courts for that. The whole investigation has been such an absolute farce it's no wonder the Kerchers aren't convinced they have received justice for their daughter.
YANBU. I just think that someone in the Italian police force had a hard on over the idea of two attractive women and a Satanic orgy gone wrong, and won't accept the plain ol' boring truth.
I know next to nothing of this case, as I was really put off by the tabloid "Foxy Knoxy" crap, so I didn't really read up much about it. Clearly I should have.
I will have a look online for some unbiased information
I'd love to know what winterwood apparently knows. It seems so odd that these two were involved in the investigation from the beginning, and now that they have an open and shut case against guede it seems even weirder.
There are only two people who now 100% for certain whether they were involved or not - we can all have a feeling, an inkling or even have come to a conclusions after looking at the evidence - but we don't know with 100% certainty. I will therefore reserve all my sympathy for Meredith and her family.
I have a feeling that this retrial is more about the justice system "saving face", then what actually happened. The idea that they were involved in Meredith's murder seems to stem most from the bizarre fantasies of the prosecution ( the "she-devil comments anyone?), then actual fact.
The fact that there are always people on these threads who aren't even aware that someone has already confessed to the crime and been convicted and yet still insist RS and AK must be guilty, speaks volumes.
No - three people soverylucky - Rudy Guede knows as well. And he's in prison having been convicted of the murder on very strong evidence, but everyone forgets about him and says that 'the mystery will never be solved'. It's been solved, someone has been convicted of it.
It's impossible for the rest of us to know whether Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollicito were involved, but it is possible to see that the evidence that they were convicted on was full of holes. Innocent until proven guilty, and they weren't proven guilty - as the appeal showed.
I cannot understand the need for another trial.
I thought the man who was convicted named them as accomplices? or did I make that up in my own head?
How on EARTH can anyone on MN actually have an opinion on what really happened?
No one actually knows except for the people who were there (or not there).
I can't understand firstly how people can say, on here, 'of course they didn't do it' when it's such a contentious matter even between those involved. (thus all the retrials/appeals etc)
secondly why this sort of vehement speculation is even allowed - won't it prejudice a trial?
and if we're going to go hell for leather about things we've nothing to do with - let's have threads about the 9/11 attacks (for example) or the Mc Cann case, and pour forth our superior knowledge on those topics too.
It's not a great idea is it?
Even if you ignore the DNA evidence totally there is a lot of circumstantial evidence:
How on EARTH can anyone on MN actually have an opinion on what really happened?
No one actually knows except for the people who were there (or not there)
Sorry, but this is a ridiculous thing to say. The prosecutors, police & jury weren't there either - so how on EARTH can they have an opinion?
I don't know whether AK & RS were involved, but I think given the evidence it is extremely unlikely....and that's the point. There is simply no evidence at all implicating these two, and they should never have been tried, let alone convicted.
The man who did murder (RG) Meredith has been caught and convicted. Her bedroom was covered in both his and Meredith's DNA -none at all from either AK or RS. None. There was one tiny, tiny amount on a bra strap from RS which was shown to have been a contamination when a forensics officer used dirty gloves.
Given that it is impossible to even walk into a room without leaving some DNA - how is it remotely possible for these two to have held down Meredith & murdered her without leaving any trace of themselves? Basically, it's not.
The police used a divide & conquer technique when questioning RS & AK - both were told the other had done it & that there was evidence for this. No one expects the police to lie to them (maybe we should), so huge confusion followed. And I don't believe AK specifically accused the bar owner - she agreed with the police who were accusing him, and also implicated herself by doing so.
Think about that. If AK was ready to "confess" why do so with a completely made up story? We know the bar owner wasn't involved, so AS's "confession" was entirely bogus. It smacks of pressure & intimidation to me.
Marmalade I agree with you entirely. And if I wasn't quite so skint, I'd send a fiver too.
Im always baffled that some people ignore the fact that Rudy Guede is in jail for Merediths murder.
Part of the trouble is that Guede's sentence has already been reduced from 30 to 16 years.
If he still had the original 30 year sentence, pressure could plausibly have been put on him to spill the beans.
Not now though.
Right at the beginning Rudy stated that neither Amanda nor Raffael were present and he and Meredith had consensual sex before someone broke in and killed her. He then claimed that he saw a man who looked like Raffael. His cell mate claimed that Rudy admitted that neither were there.
I believe they are both innocent as it seems pretty far fetched that a young woman who speaks basic Italian would premeditate to kill her friend of one month with her boyfriend of two weeks with a man she barely knows. Rudy was a friend of Merediths boyfriend not a friend of Amanda.
All the "foxy knoxy" slander is rubbish, their flatmate admitted that it was Amanda who suggested to Meredith that she should use protection when having multiple one night stands. Nothing wrong with having consensual adult fun but the way it has been used to turn Amanda from a fun loving young party girl into a sex crazed witch is frankly disgusting.
I am interested now in all of this. Oh, and once I have read up I WILL have an opinion.
After all, opinion is not stating as fact
A lot of people are stating it as fact. That's the problem I have got with it. Having an opinion wasn't the right way to phrase it - sorry. Sating our opinions as fact, when they are based on what? seems foolisha nd wrong.
Of course the jury and prosecutors and so on were not there but they certainly know an awful lot more about it (from both sides) than any of us here.
Sollecito's family is very wealthy. VERY wealthy. They employed the same lawyers that the mafia (and Berlesconi) use - and they couldn't get him off
Fair enough * RoooneyMara* FWIW I agree with you about opinion and fact. I am also wary of those who have "heard" from others in the know. If there is insider information it is either illegal or unprofessional to share it, surely /
If you look at the Oscar Pistorius case, this is a prime example of spin, distorted facts, apparent access to forensic reports, quotes, misquotes, all wrapped up as entertainment for the public. There, too, we have people quoting as FACT, what is merely an opinion. And that is those that think he is guilty of murder, and those that think it was an accident. It hasn't been to trial yet, so no-one can know all the evidence.
An opinion that they are fully entitled to have, but is just that - an opinion
Sympathy I have is based on the fact that he was tried - guilty - time in prison - appealed - freed - oops hang on we'll bring you back. That is awful.
Knox need never fear being extradited back to face the same circumstance. That is not fair.
Hope they get it right and justice is served, whichever outcome.
I don't think anyone on this thread has suggested it's a FACT that they didn't do it - you can't ever say that about any case, ever (which is why "beyond a reasonable doubt" exists - because there will always be some element of doubt).
I think it's pretty factual that there's no evidence implicating these two, and that's what I'm basing my opinion of their innocence on. And I don't accept that there's people in the know who are aware of details not available to the rest of us - it would have come out in the trial or been leaked by the prosecution by now. All these people who tap their noses and claim the police/diplomatic service "know stuff" are talking bullshit. It can't be very compelling if it didn't come out at the trial or subsequently.
And really - expensive lawyers couldn't get him off, so..........? Is that supposed to be significant or something?
If any of you lot are summoned for jury duty, do us all a favour....... make up some excuse and decline. Please .
Don't have the slightest sympathy for either of them.
Amanda Knox is pretty safe in the US as they will most likely not agree to extradite her to Italy for re-trial but I feel sorry for Sollecito too as as he is Italian so there's no escaping his own justice system. He should pull an Edward Snowden and skip the country to go somewhere that doesn't have any extradition treaty with Italy as the trial was a farce at this stage and a retrial would be an even bigger farce.
I really feel most sorry for the Kercher family though. How can they deal with their grief and move on with all the publicity and pointless speculation?
Is this a piss-take?
Why are you so involved with this case? Why does it matter so much? They were either (a) guilty or (b) hanging with the wrong crowd. The bloke who pleaded guilty implicated them (with no reason to do so) and there's a whole heap of circumstantial evidence ... Stoners can do bad things. You are being carried away because of their age, class and race. This is not Steve Biko we're talking about. We're talking about lazy middle-class over-entitled potheads who may or may not have committed murder. Save your sympathy for someone worthwhile.
I don't think you can say there is no evidence. There is. The book by the journalist on the case ( really good, also did a study on the monster of Florence case) went through the eye witness accounts, the messages, the various statements, the DNA, the phone and Internet records. There was a lot to cast doubt on their innocence. Not enough, hence the current situation. I have no idea one way or another but you can't say there is no evidence.
It stands to reason that you are more likely to have sympathy with people you can identify with. It is human nature.
And this is what is so objectionable. You identify with them so you sympathise with them and you are therefore incapable of looking objectively at the facts. They are complete twats whether or not they murdered poor Meredith. But because they are pretty white and middle-class you are prepared to overlook their behaviour and believe in their innocence despite the evidence.
Actually, I think your behaviour is reprehensible. Voyeuristic and over-indulgent. These people are adults.
I read the John Follain book on the case, and tbh felt almost more conflicted at the end of it. It did suggest to be that Sollecito and Knox had behaved strangely in many ways (not answering phone, all the extravagant hugging and kissing right outside after discovering the murder etc) but then behaving strangely is not a crime. I think if I'd been on the jury and it had been tried under the British system, I would have felt that they'd done some odd stuff but that I would be unable to say they were guilty on the balance of things so they should be found innocent. Plus there is all the DNA evidence for Guede's involvement, so there doesn't seem to be much doubt that he certainly was rightfully convicted. I would be interested to read Sollecito's book to hear his side. The press has portrayed him very much as a smitten sidekick to Knox, the person they are fascinated with, rather than an individual in his own right.
Sollecito's family is very wealthy. VERY wealthy.
Yet people are donating money!
It concerns how niaive some people are.
Don't be ridiculous. You can look at facts and decide.
Jeremy Hunt is also white and middle-class. I don't feel any empathy/sympathy for him at all as he has inextricably been found guilty of his crime. I also read a lot about the Carl Bridgwater murder and the Birmingham Six. Miscarriages of justice interest me.
Why are they twats? What had they done prior to being thrust under a spotlight?
I think you're trolling a bit, too.
So what if his family are wealthy?! My father is wealthy but it doesn't mean he has a never-ending pot of money to fund trial after trial should I ever be convicted of a crime!
Also, Luke Walker who has been found guilty of manslaughter in Crete, despite evidence being very shaky and jury members texting throughout the hearings.
I have donated to his family, too. He is local to me, lots of us gave money. His poor dad has had to sell his business and home to pay for the trial/flying witnesses out to Crete etc.
Just because I am pulling you up does not make me a troll. You can check my posting history. No history of trolling. You are just being silly and I am telling you so clearly and plainly. That is not trolling.
They are not worth the effort. I don't know whether or not they were playing at being bad or actually being bad and no-one ever will know that. If you want a cause, find something useful FGS
I was going to write a longer post then realised I basically just agree with Wuldric.
So....yeah. What Wuldric says.
As stated up thread, my sympathies lie completely with the Kercher family. The way the Knox family manipulated and courted the American press/media during the original trial was in the worst possible taste and incredibly insensitive of Meredith Kercher and her family.
You can't really pull someone up for feeling sorry for someone though, can you mate? It's basically pulling someone up for having a different opinion to you and that just doesn't work. Unless you are so up your own arse that you cannot accept that people feel differently to you.
And calling someone reprehensible for that^ is either hysterical if you're being genuine, or a wind-up.
As I said earlier, just because I am interested in THIS doesn't mean I cannot be interested in OTHER things. I have quite a broad mind. I can think about more than one thing at a time. And it is YOUR opinion, what is useful.
Oh purlease. You have donated money to this? When there are people starving in the world? And you say that I am being hysterical when I tell you you are over-involved?
<backs away from thread. Very very slowly>
I agree with twatkins. I believe they are both innocent and the perpetrator has been locked up.
The way Amanda Knox was portrayed by the media irritated me immensely.
Yes, I have donated money. I also donate monthly to Oxfam. What's your point?
if it turns out they were involved, you will feel comfortable having donated to his cause?
I agree with what you say about saving your sympathy for someone worthy Wuldric.
It's just that I think that someone who had a false statement slapped out of them during an interrogation which contravened their human and legal rights, and was then charged with murder on the basis of this and no other real evidence IS worthy of sympathy.
The point that I am trying very hard to make is that there are more worthwhile causes out there. Go and ensure that people don't starve, that the donkeys have sanctuaries and that the woodlands are safe.
Slinging money at strangers who are potheads simply because they are (a) young (b) middle-class (c) pretty and (d) middle-class seems to me to be a waste of effort. But hey, waste your efforts. It's a free country. But don't ask me to join in.
Bloody bonkers, frankly.
Who makes the judgement call, though, on what or who is worthy of anyone's sympathy?
That's up to each individual
Yes I will feel comfortable because I gave (a small amount!) based on what I believed at the time. If it turns out I was wrong, I've lost £10 and he'll go to jail anyway so no big loss.
Would you like some tommy K for that very working class chip on your shoulder?
Oh do stop saying "potheads" like it's a moral outrage issue that a student smoked a bit of weed. But thanks for telling me what I should find worthwhile. I just said, I donate monthly to Oxfam. Does that meet your criteria? I also give for Children In Need and Comic Relief. Oh and I give at Macmillan coffee mornings. And to the Cat's Protection. Is there a reason that you think that I am only able to give to one cause? How odd.
And no-one has asked you to join in anything.
I think it is very sad that the tabloid reporting of this case still makes people certain that they are both guilty when the evidence does not support it. There is NO evidence against them, not even circumstantial. There has been a huge amount of media spin, leaks to the press, changes in prosecution approach etc. I feel sorry for everyone in this case, especially Meredith's family who have not been served well by the Italian system, and all this fucking face saving bollocks amongst the prosecution.
What chip on my shoulder? I am fricking middle-class. Born to it, raised in it and in a profession which believes in evidence-based verdicts. I'm just pointing out that the prejudices the OP is blatantly parading are as real as racism and are being touted on this thread.
Good point, SaucyJack. If RS/AK were working class, no-one would DARE mock them. But middle-class is fair game for mockery on MN...
I feel so sorry for him also I do t think Amanda Knox will ever be extradited due to American laws. But he's got nowhere to hide. He must feel so scared and completely alone.
I think it a completely worthy cause to raise money to be honest.
He'd only been seeing her a few days. My mind boggles as to what he going through.
Yeah because pothead obviously equals murderer
Oh my god what has social class got to do with this topic?
Is it the higher up you are the more worthy your opinion is or something?
I'm not in the least taken in by the Chinese whispers about diplomatic intervention or non intervention, or the persecution of suspects because they are young, pretty or foreign.
What hasn't been found is enough evidence to convict them, and therefore they are innocent and someone else did it. He is in jail. Its hardly unimaginable that in a country with such poor legal procedures as Italy now has, a student may have been murdered in a student town, in student digs, by an itinerant petty criminal.
But of course its more fun to believe ridiculous rumours in the media about innocent people who provide a much more fantastical, fictional storyline.
And actually, if I'm being a cynical old cow about things, what actually is my £10 a month going to actually do for the third world? I pay it happily because I can and will continue to do so, but money has been ploughed into the third world for decades and not much is changing. At least donating to an individual may actually help.
The facts are that the bloke who left his DNA all over the place is black and not middle class. And is in prison. And the other 2 who are white and middle class have NO reason, based on any evidence at all to be involved or accused, were acquitted. Because there is NO evidence, not because they Are mc and white. Because there is NO evidence.
Well, I have said, and continue to say that this is not a worthwhile cause to donate money. You can donate money to the Flat Earth Society for all I care, but it still does not make the cause worthwhile.
You were the one who stated that It stands to reason that you are more likely to have sympathy with people you can identify with. It is human nature. At which point it became very obvious that you were identifying with them rather than looking at the evidence.
I still think, OP that you need to find something better to do with your time than to tout for sympathy for a possible murderer. That is an action that is potentially unhinged. Like those nutjobs who write to people on deathrow. It is not a sensible thing for you to be doing.
AK had Patrick Lumumba's name put in front of her in the middle of an illegal interrogation. Of course he was not implicated. If she was guilty why even mention him. He had texted her and the police brought his name into it, not AK.
Ahhh but according to my mate Dave, Porto, who works for blah de blah de blah...
This was a lot of the problem with this trial. Too many thickos wanting to believe that AK was a demented sexual deviant, "it's in the EYES" they bleated like 14th century witch-hunters. The judge had form for this demonization of women and making up ridiculous claims that women standing trial were devil women and other such twattery. Sadly, there are too many knuckledraggers willing to lap it up.
I'm just wondering why Wuldric is saying that donkeys are more worthy of money than 2, almost certainly in this instance, innocent human beings whose lives have already been ruined by a disgracefully inept Italian justice system. Their background is completely irrelevant.
I have looked at the evidence and see no problem donating to his appeal fund if that is what someone wants to do. I give money to Amnesty for much the same reason.
OP, you have had your abusive post deleted. If this does not tell you that you are over-involved, to a somewhat ridiculous extent, nothing will.
I wish you good luck, but more than that, I wish you'd find something worthwhile for your energies!!
Good night all
"You were the one who stated that It stands to reason that you are more likely to have sympathy with people you can identify with. It is human nature. At which point it became very obvious that you were identifying with them rather than looking at the evidence."
You asked why I was focussing my sympathies on these two rather than X, Y or Z. I merely pointed out that it is natural to take an interest in people who you can identify with. In conjunction with reading on the case extensively, I feel well enough qualified to know whether my empathy is misplaced or not.
Writing to someone on Death Row isn't comparable to making a one-off donation to someone waiting for a re-trial for a crime of which they have been acquitted. You are being hysterical again.
I got deleted because I said you sound a twat going on about class, where it is irrelevant. <shrug>
Honestly, this could easily happen to any of our children. Let's hope that should anything like this ever happen to yours, they'll not be smeared in the way that you have smeared these two.
Over involved? Christ. Feeling sympathy for someone you believe to be innocent of a crime and sending them £10 is quite mild compared to some of the buy in people have on here for complete strangers.
I think it is refreshing for someone to think of Raffaele for once actually, as he tends to be overlooked.
I haven't donated and have no plans to do so. Nor do I have any strong feelings about Sollecito and Knox's guilt either way. For all I know, they did it. Or not. But if I had, even if it did turn out that they're both guilty as sin, I would be extremely comfortable with the idea that my money had gone towards allowing someone who had undergone illegal interrogation to defend themself. This is because a fair legal system and the prevention of police impunity are hugely, colossally, magnificently important. Even for the guilty, and for those who have committed no crime beyond being middle class dickheads.
I did feel for AK but more so now for RS as he has to go back to Italy whereas AK will be protected by the U.S. He must feel very vulnerable.
They weren't even dickheads though. AK was an honour student who worked 2 jobs to save for her trip. RS was a bit of a geek. They weren't dickjheads, arrogant or anything. They weren't anything. They were just THERE.
Oh but they DID smoke pot, which is at DEFCON1 on the cunt-o-meter, apparently...
I have read through the posts on this AIBU, and realise I know naff all about this case, but I find the media bandwagon, gutter press coverage of the whole case tedious to the extent that I zoned out long ago and lost the will to live. I wonder if 'the world' would be so interested if they were non-descript and un-photogenic. Surely there must be masses of cases that never make it to the media. I can totally see that miscarriages of justice are appauling, but I just can't get passionate about this case, just because they are given greater coverage (and young and 'pretty' which is what the press love!).
However, I absolutely admire anyone who puts their hand in their pocket and gives their hard-earned money to help them, if it means that much. That's what makes me proud to be British! People giving to causes that they believe are important. And I'm not about to list out any charities that I may or may not favour - people shouldn't have to justify themselves, its - thank God - a free society!
Quite Chunderella - giving money to ensure someone has a fair trial, I struggle to see how that's a bag thing to do.
Also agree the reporting, especially over that blasted kiss, has been vile.
I agree with everything Wuldric said
And I think they probably did it, as well
boomba can you explain why, in the face of no evidence, you think they are guilty?
I followed the case. It seems there is as much/more evidence against them as there is Rudy Guede. The only reason AK and RS is not in prison is colour and class
"Potheads" a term last used circa 1958.
Are you very old Wuldric?
MK injuries are not compatible with a single attacker for starters
Can people stop saying there is no evidence? There is some; circumstantial, iffy DNA, witness accounts, statements just not sufficient for a safe conviction. Otherwise it's basically as if the Italian judicial system all bought into the idea of orgy gone wrong and had a trial full of silence.
I completely agree with Marmalade and can think of few things that would be worse than being falsely accused and imprisoned for such a heinous crime. ....let alone to be finally released and then tried again. Cannot understand those that say this is a waste of people's time/money! What if these were your family members? What if this were you?
So what, ageism now? I am 46 years old and I have smoked illegal substances (and did inhale). Didn't mean I took to murdering people under the influence. Didn't mean I took to mixing with murderers under the influence either.
The Italian High court has overturned and criticised the judgement of the appeal court which acquitted them on appeal. There is a 74 page document detailing the reasons why. A summary can be found online.
This does not make them guilty. They are once again charged with murder though. Their guilt needs to be proved beyond reasonable doubt and rightly so. It means that the High Court feels that questions are unanswered and inconsistencies remain in testimonies which
were glossed over by the appeal court. one issue is that Lumumba was in jail for two weeks having been accused by his employee, AK. He was released only after an alibi was confirmed. She did not retract her accusation and received a jail sentence for that which she has served.
Let us hope for a fair trial for the sake of the victim who suffered terribly.
theres lots of evidence nerf
RS footprints in blood. AK and MK DNA/blood
Ive smoked a lot of weed. I have never not been able to remember an entire evening/night
On the evidence there was, they would have both been found guilty in the UK and in the US
That's what I mean Boomba: there is evidence. The weight that can be attributed to it can be doubted but not the existence.
What is the 'iffy DNA' evidence against them? I thought there was no forensic link, other than the discredited bra clasp thing.
And some sympathy might also go to Lumumba. AK was ok with seeing him go down for the murder. And he truly wasn't there that night.
Wuldric - did you really throw a Hissy fit and report Marmalde after the nonsense and insults you've thrown a her?
If they were involved then a safe conviction first time around would have been a good thing for the family but a bungled unsafe first conviction, an appeal and a retrial is the worst treatment a victim could get. A THIRD trial 'for the sake of the victim'? It's appalling.
It's a terrible indictment of the Italian justice system that Meredith's family will have to suffer a third trial and hearing all the evidence again. Unthinkable suffering to put them through. They should have got justice within months of her death. From what I've read (I've read a lot about it as I needed to research it for something work related) the most convincing explanation to me is that Rudy Guede acted alone. But quite apart from that, that this has gone on so long is cruel. And it's not AK or RS's fault that it's gone on so long, the whole thing has been bungled.
Snazzy, it's in the book. More than the bra clasp iirc, there's the knife and something else. What I am trying to say, as a pedant, is that there is evidence but it may not be / was not sufficient to justify a conviction.
I think you will find that i have thrown no insults.
This thread is all wrong, on so many levels. Partisan siding with 'innocent' victims, identifying with people because they are young white and middleclass. Happy to blame the black guy even though it was clear that no one person could have committed the crime ...
This thread started with someone telling the OP that her sympathy was misplaced. I think the OP's sympathies are beyond misplaced.
Blood was found in seven locations in the small bathroom that Knox shared with Meredith. 
The Door Frame: blood was found on the right, inside door frame containing Merediths DNA. 
The Light Switch Plate: Merediths blood was also found on the light switch. 
The Sink: Blood was found in two places. There was dried blood near the faucet that had the DNA of Knox.  A streak from the left part of the sink toward the drain containing Merediths blood mixed with DNA of Knox.
The Bidet: Merediths blood was found mixed with the DNA of Knox.
The Toilet Lid: Merediths blood.
Q-tip Box: Merediths blood mixed with DNA of Knox.
The Bathmat: Three samples taken from the bathmat yielded Merediths blood. The bloodstains on the bathmat were studied and compared with footprints taken of the right foot from Knox, Sollecito, and Guede, and found to be that of Sollecito. [351-355]
The defense did not contest the mixed DNA test results, but instead argued that they were irrelevant: that mixed DNA would be expected since Meredith and Knox lived in the same house and shared the small bathroom.  They suggested that Knoxs DNA could be exfoliated skin cells. Dr. Stefanoni (for the prosecution) testified that exfoliated skin cells are keratinized and contain no DNA. 
The court concluded that Knox DNA became mixed with Merediths blood from vigorous scrubbing of the hands and feet, and that this is how the mixed DNA sampled came to be found in the sink and the bidet.
DNA testing cannot, by itself, determine when biological material has been deposited, or in the case of mixed DNA, which was deposited first or whether it was simultaneous.  However, the court noted that Knox told the court in her answer to questioning that the bathroom was clean when she left the house on the afternoon of November 1.
The court concluded that Merediths killers had gotten blood on their hands and elsewhere on their bodies, and that they needed to clean off the blood. Accordingly, they tracked blood on their feet to the small bathroom, where Merediths blood was transferred to the doorframe and light switch plate when they turned the light on in order to use the bathroom. Sollecito tracked Merediths blood into the bathroom, leaving a partial print of his right foot in blood.
The footprint on the bathmat was partial, missing the heel.  Based on the dimensions of the big toe, the plantar arch, and the shape and location of various bumps, Inspectors Rinaldi and Boemia concluded that the print was made in Merediths blood by Sollecitos right foot, that it was consistent with Sollecitos wider foot and inconsistent with Guedes longer, narrower foot, and well as being inconsistent with Knox.[339-342]
Oh here we are, I'm racist now too...
Stefanoni and Garofano both say that there was an abundant amount (relatively speaking) of Amandas blood in the bathroom washbasin, and to a lesser extent the bidet. Whereas most of Amandas blood in the bathroom was mixed with Merediths, the blood on the washbasin tap was Amandas alone. Both of a quality and quantity to discount menstrual (from washed knickers) or bleeding from ear piercing. Their conclusion was that Amanda bled fairly profusely though perhaps briefly at some stage.
What interests me about this thread is not so much the facts of this case, but why some middle-aged women are prepared to defend potential murderers. To the extent of putting their money towards it. I wonder if it is a symptom of this
I agree wuldric. It is very odd, regardless of the facts of the case
the DNA of Raffaele Sollecito on Merediths bra-clasp in her locked bedroom;
the almost-entire naked footprint of Raffaele on a bathmat that in no way fits that of the other male in this case Rudy Guede;
the fact that Raffaeles own father blew their alibi that they were together in Raffaeles flat at the time of the killing with indisputable telephone records;
the DNA of Meredith Kercher on the knife in Raffaeles flat which Raffaele himself sought to explain as having been from accidentally pricking Merediths hand in his written diary despite the fact Meredith had never been to his flat (confirmed by Amanda Knox);
the correlation of where Merediths phones were found to the location of Raffaele Sollecito and Rudy Guedess flats;
the computer records which show that no-one was at Raffaeles computer during the time of the murder despite him claiming he was using that computer;
Amandas DNA mixed with Meredith Kerchers in five different places just feet from Merediths body;
the utterly inexplicable computer records the morning after the murder starting at 5.32 am and including multiple file creations and interactions thereafter all during a time that Raffaele and Amanda insist they were asleep until 10.30am;
the separate witnesses who testified on oath that Amanda and Raffaele were at the square 40 metres from the girls cottage on the evening of the murder and the fact that Amanda was seen at a convenience store at 7.45am the next morning, again while she said she was in bed;
the accusation of a completely innocent man by Amanda Knox;
the fact that when Amanda Knox rang Merediths mobile telephones, ostensibly to check on the missing Meredith, she did so for just three seconds - registering the call but making no effort to allow the phone to be answered in the real world
the knife-fetish of Raffaele Sollecito and his formal disciplinary punishment for watching animal porn at his university so far from the wholesome image portrayed;
the fact that claimed multi-year kick-boxer Raffaele apparently couldnt break down a flimsy door to Merediths room when he and Amanda were at the flat the morning after the murder but the first people in the flat with the police who werent martial artists could;
the extensive hard drug use of Sollecito as told on by Amanda Knox;
the fact that Amanda knew details of the body and the wounds despite not being in line of sight of the body when it was discovered;
the lies of Knox on the witness stand in July 2009 about how their drug intake that night (one joint) is totally contradicted by Sollecitos own contemporaneous diary;
the fact that after a late evenings questioning, Knox wrote a 2,900 word email home which painstakingly details what she said happened that evening and the morning after that looks highly like someone committing to memory, at 3.30 in the morning, an extensive alibi;
the fact that both Amanda and Raffaele both said they would give up smoking dope for life in their prison diaries despite having apparently nothing to regret;
the fact that when Rudy Guede was arrested, Raffaele Sollecito didnt celebrate the true perpetrator being arrested (which surely would have seen him released) but worried in his diary that a man whom he said he didnt know would make up strange things about him despite him just being one person in a city of over 160,000 people;
the fact that both an occupant of the cottage and the police instantly recognised the cottage had not been burgled but had been the subject of a staged break-in where glass was on top of apparently disturbed clothes;
that Knox and Sollecito both suggested each other might have committed the crime and Sollecito TO THIS DATE does not agree Knox stayed in his flat all the night in question;
the bizarre behaviour of both of them for days after the crime;
the fact that cellphone records show Knox did not stay in Sollecitos flat but had left the flat at a time which is completely coincidental with Guedes corroborated presence near the girls flat earlier in the evening;
the fact that Amanda Knoxs table lamp was found in the locked room of Meredith Kercher in a position that suggested it had been used to examine for fine details of the murder scene in a clean up;
the unbelievable series of changing stories made up by the defendants after their versions became challenged; Knoxs inexplicable reaction to being shown the knife drawer at the girls cottage where she ended up physically shaking and hitting her head.
Seriously, wuldric, you think you aren't saying anything insulting? Even in your 22:35 post?
Go and search my posts in the subject in In The News, around the time if the acquittal.
I suppose my compassion for AK is symbolic of being a secret lesbian with a penchant for acquitted killers.
where do you get that wuldric is suggesting something sexual???
you think those women start 'relationships' with death row in-mates because of sex??
She knows that she's being insulting and goady. She hasn't the bottle to be blatant about it so she is being a snidey twat.
Go on, report me again. You can dish out but can't take back, Wuldrick.
The original thread earned me my first ever deletion on MN. Anybody who thinks RS & AK are guilty is an idiot. FACT.
Why were their phones turned off? Simple. She'd unexpectedly been given the night off by her boss (Lumumba iirc) and wisely used her time to fuck her new boyfriend's brains out and they turned their phones off so as not to be disturbed.
They obviously cleaned Merediths bedroom so well that they obliterated all traces of their DNA but left copious amounts of DNA belonging to Meredith and Rudy Guede. That was sneaky.
There is no evidence that would get them in court in this country. None at all.
Marms I totally agree, Raffaele has been hard done by, he's been largely sidelined by the media due to him not being Amanda Knox gorgeous. And she is gorgeous. If he gets found guilty then justice really is a banana.
Have you read the article, Boomba? It is entitled 'Women Who Date Death Row Prisoners' so what do you think it is that she is suggesting?
Boomba, I didn't know a great deal about the case and have tried not to speculate (mentioning Amanda knox's defamation case as a matter of fact, trying not go beyond that). But what you have posted is chilling. Is that from a book or is that your own synopsis? Like many of us, I struggle to know which evidence has been discredited.
he's been largely sidelined by the media due to him not being Amanda Knox gorgeous. And she is gorgeous
yes marmalade do you think women 'date' death-row prisoners for the sex?
I would agree that tabloid reporting has a huge, huge amount to answer for.
The way the UK press lacks all restraint if it's a foreign case is completely unacceptable, particularly in an era of online news. It will come to the stage when certain cases will not be able to have jury trials, because there will be no way of finding jurors who haven't been influenced by press coverage.
Although, in the Oscar Pistorius case, the lack of a jury trial seems to have encouraged the media to behave in a more salacious manner still
Erm, no. Where did I say that?
Stop all the hysterical stuff and bullet point the clear proved evidence, forensic, circumstantial? The stuff that wasn't disproved by the court I mean.
My point is Boomba that all the media focus has been on Amanda Knox purely based on her looks. They're innocent. Your post contains no proof, merely conjecture. Look at the original thread where proof is provided by many of their innocence.
Hi Marms. Lovely to 'see' you. Haven't seen you for aaages.
Marmalade what crime was Jeremy Hunt convicted of? I know he is a pretty poor Minister for Health but I wasn't aware he was also a convicted criminal.
Boomba- "Ive smoked a lot of weed"
Gosh, I'd never had thought that.
There have been many threads about this.
there is no proof of their innocence
Did I say Hunt?! If he hasn't been arrested, he should be...
It's like this when Madeline McCaan gets mentioned on MN
All this 'evidence'. It's a crock of shit made up by people who need to get out more.
They were acquitted because what little evidence there was shown to be highly suspect. Anyone who is in full on they must be guilty cos she is a slut/devil woman and he smoked weed Nd bought manga needs their head examined to be quite frank.
Boomba, the court needs to find you guilty, not innocent.
I really think they set that poor girl up. They will never admit the truth.
I remember seeing Amanda's mother interviewed years ago and she was so callas about the Kerchers and what happened to Meredith. It was all very calculated.
Poor Meredith, poor young girl. They were in on what happened for sure.
I quite agree Porto.
If you read the actual evidence
not made up things on the Internet there is no actual evidence that they were involved.
Good old Jeremy Rhyming-Slang...
im not debating that porto
but nicholas said there were lots of threads where there was proof of their innocence....there isnt. there is no proof of their innocence
You assume innocence in the absence of proof of guilt
They were into more than smoking a bit of weed wake up people!
oh typos were you at the trial then?
So AK' s mum is in on it as well, because she isn't media savvy?
What were they in to, Ange?
No I didn't say that Boomba. Read it. Then try to understand it. Sheesh.
Erm no, were you?
I have read the broadsheets which relayed the evidence given in court. I think that's probably quite a good place to get your info from.
There is no proof that they are guilty. None. No forensic evidence, no circumstantial evidence . They were acquitted because of that, they don't have to prove anything beyond that.
Right, I really am leaving this thread now.
For those of you who are determined that Knox/Sollecito are innocent, for reasons best known to yourselves, I would remind you that a lovely young girl was murdered. I am allowed to wonder at your possible motivation for arbitrarily deciding that these two are innocent, because you have not stated any facts in your position. I do think that you are over-engaged and over-emotional in all this, but you seem to be blinkered in your belief that they are innocent. It is not possible to argue rationally with people in the thrall of belief despite any evidence.
So well, I wish you all goodnight.
Look at the original thread where proof is provided by many of their innocence
from your post at 22:56 nicholas
you are all being a bit weird
why are you so emotionally invested in this??
When one of the major pieces of evidence provided is that Knox's DNA was found in her own fricking bathroom, then it's time for bed.
Oh dear Wuldric, have we upset you? Never mind, at least the man who murdered Meredith is serving a prison sentence for doing so. I hope this provides you some solace. <hugs>
I feel hugely for Meredith's family,thanks. I think they are best served by knowing the truth, and not being put through this fucking shambles to be honest. Fine if you want to do speculation based on Daily Mail reports.
I agree saucy. It's blooming depressing that people would believe that is 'evidence' that you've murdered someone.
The one thing that the case did prove is that the crime could not have been committed by the black guy on his own, Nicholas. So no, not much solace. You can tuck yourself up in comfort that the white middle class kids could never ever have done such a deed, if you like. But I am not one to lie to myself because the kids look and feel like mine, And ultimately, this is what you are doing. Do make sure you donate plenty of money to defend them. After all, that's money well spent, no?
Um no the forensics did not prove that all.
but nicholas said there were lots of threads where there was proof of their innocence
A tad different to what I actually said, which was:-
Look at the original thread where proof is provided by many of their innocence
Now, if you can't tell these statements apart perhaps you should hand your English GCSE back. And I can pick up my pendant award.
Yes, pendant. Not pedant.
I am interested in this case. Im not that invested in it. I dont feel as strongly about it as you obviously do. I cant really be bothered to trade insults with you
Well done for getting my class so fucking wrong it's unbelievable Wuldric. My family is so middle class that my son is the first family member ever to go to university. We're working class and proud. We just value the truth. Something which seems to be eluding you.
I might not be as educated as you but I can sniff out bullshit. This case was built on misogyny. It fitted what the prosecutor wanted to believe. Look him up online, he has form.
I cannot be arsed to trawl through all my posts on here to post what I did tearing some fuckwit argument to pieces, but it's all there somewhere.
Wuldric, what are your trying to imply about Rudi Guede? Well he was undoubtably there. He left DNA, a palm print. It was the reason he was arrested, after he fled the country. Are we trying to blame him unfairly cos he is black and not middle class? Or should his undoubted participation in the crime be over looked as there are some white mc people who are probably guilty as they smoked some pot and looked a bit funny the next day....
well, if you cant be arsed, im sure no one else will be
Anyone who has read anything at all by the more impartial journalists vs the gutter press will know this was all a load of old bollocks. There is NO evidence to accuse either AK or RS of this crime
So AK and RS's mobile phones wandered around Perugia on their own?
And RS's computer googled how to clean blood off knives on its own as well?
AK keeps telling us that she was interviewed for hours in Italian, which is true, but, she doesn't mention that an interpreter arrived after just one hour.
Crikey, I go off to do a bit of Real Life and you lot fall on each other like cats in a sack.
Neither camp sat through the evidence in court (for which there is no substitute) so can't ever really know the totality of the evidence, and neither 'side' is ever going to persuade the other. So there isn't any point lobbing brickbats at each other on this thread.
I hope we can all agree a retrial is a bloody hard thing and hope to goodness it at least arrives at a conclusive, persuasively argued and final verdict.
Can I just point out this is an appeal not a new trial. It is a routine part of the Italian legal system.
ssash can you link?
Can you link to the evidence re the phones and the computer? I know the laptops were wiped so it would be impossible to put that sort of evidence in front of the court. There are detailed reports on the phones and where they were/weren't.
The knife evidence was slated at the appeal.
"I do think that you are over-engaged and over-emotional in all this, but you seem to be blinkered in your belief that they are innocent. It is not possible to argue rationally with people in the thrall of belief despite any evidence"
I suppose it depends on your definition of over-emotional/over-engaged. If it involves starting a discussion thread on an internet talk board and flinging ten quid at an appeal fund then yeah, I'm well in. If anyone's been hysterical on this thread it's you, Wuldric. Comparing someone whose involvement in a case extends to talking on a chat thread and a small donation to someone in a relationship with convicted murderers on death row suggests that your perspective might need working on, to say the least.
And all of this reducing them to their looks, what's that all about? "Pretty" doesn't even come into it. As it happens, RS is an average-looking bloke. As I said in my deleted post, I am working-class. My mother lives in a council house. My dad has money but he is self-made. So class-based sympathy also doesn't wash. It's called empathy for another human being. I think it's sad that you need to look for reasons beyond human kindness for why someone might feel this way.
I believe that the person responsible has been caught. He opted for a fast-track trial to reduce his sentence. He knew he'd done it. If you can provide evidence that WASN'T disproved in court, that might persuade some of us otherwise.
I will try and dig out that thread in ITN, Nicholas. It was very informative from what I remember.
Yep, that's the one Marms. It's just a bit depressing that nearly two years later we're having the same arguments. Except I'd forgotten just how corrupt and useless the prosecutor was.
I did have a record of the phone calls, but can't find it.
The first link gives an 'integrated time line' of the mobile phone records. I don't know how biased it is, the writers obviously believe Sollecito and Knox are guilty so it is not an unbiased version of events, but the phone records are from the trial.
The next tries to just list facts, but then again starts being biased
This one shows a different time line, and is biased towards RS/AK
Finally English translation of the Masssei report.
Another copy of the Massei report, in Italian and translated by volunteers.
I've just started reading that Massei report and it bangs on for ages that Knox's claim they ate dinner at 10pm is refuted as RS told his dad on the phone at half eight that he had noticed a water leak while washing the dishes.
Because of course people only ever wash dishes after dinner . Is that the standard of evidence of the rest of it?
Pretty much. And the Hellman report is quite scathing about it.
Next up we have a homeless guy who didn't know them claiming he saw them out that evening. Followed by a phonecall RS's father made to him at a time when Amanda claims to have been asleep, that she never mentioned. The report concludes that she didn't mention it because she wasn't in the house when it happened (er, or asleep as she claimed?).
This is serious bullshit.
Basically, all of the circumstantial evidence (dishes being washed/timing of calls etc) could have rings run around it by a bright toddler.
So much of it has been disproved. The Albanian witness, the Italian shopkeeper who says they bought bleach from him... all proved as bollocks.
It also queries why someone would want a shower, having had a shower the previous evening. Gosh, that really does make me think she did it.
Those who think Knox must be guilty because she pointed the finger at an innocent man need to check out the work of The Innocence Project. There are many cases of people confessing to murder themselves under interrogation, when they have later been exonerated by DNA evidence. If it is common for people to confess, when innocent, under interrogation, it would be understandable that she followed the police's lead in blaming someone else.
The Lumumba confession was discredited in court. The jury would have been told to disregard it. I am that people are still droning on about it.
That's a great link, Noble.
It wasn't even admissable in court for the criminal trial. Unfortunately they allowed Lumumba's civil suit to run concurrently, and off course that was his main evidence.
Just to be clear, I didn't say Amanda Knox was guilty of murder because she pointed the finger at someone else. I said she was guilty of defamation, and of wrecking the life on an innocent person for at least a year, if not much much longer. And therefore not deserving of much sympathy. I have read this thread carefully but on that point my opinion has not changed.
the DNA of Raffaele Sollecito on Merediths bra-clasp in her locked bedroom; contamination
the almost-entire naked footprint of Raffaele on a bathmat that in no way fits that of the other male in this case Rudy Guede; not true
the fact that Raffaeles own father blew their alibi that they were together in Raffaeles flat at the time of the killing with indisputable telephone records; not true
the DNA of Meredith Kercher on the knife in Raffaeles flat which Raffaele himself sought to explain as having been from accidentally pricking Merediths hand in his written diary despite the fact Meredith had never been to his flat (confirmed by Amanda Knox); disproved most likely contamination. It is easier to remove dna by cleaning than blood. No blood was found on the knife.
the correlation of where Merediths phones were found to the location of Raffaele Sollecito and Rudy Guedess flats; circumstantial
the computer records which show that no-one was at Raffaeles computer during the time of the murder despite him claiming he was using that computer; Computer hard drives were wiped.
Amandas DNA mixed with Meredith Kerchers in five different places just feet from Merediths body; Not true
the utterly inexplicable computer records the morning after the murder starting at 5.32 am and including multiple file creations and interactions thereafter all during a time that Raffaele and Amanda insist they were asleep until 10.30am; circumstantial
the separate witnesses who testified on oath that Amanda and Raffaele were at the square 40 metres from the girls cottage on the evening of the murder and the fact that Amanda was seen at a convenience store at 7.45am the next morning, again while she said she was in bed; Disproved in court
the accusation of a completely innocent man by Amanda Knox; Under illegal interrogation
the fact that when Amanda Knox rang Merediths mobile telephones, ostensibly to check on the missing Meredith, she did so for just three seconds - registering the call but making no effort to allow the phone to be answered in the real world Circumstantial
the knife-fetish of Raffaele Sollecito and his formal disciplinary punishment for watching animal porn at his university so far from the wholesome image portrayed; media spin
the fact that claimed multi-year kick-boxer Raffaele apparently couldnt break down a flimsy door to Merediths room when he and Amanda were at the flat the morning after the murder but the first people in the flat with the police who werent martial artists could; He didn't try
the extensive hard drug use of Sollecito as told on by Amanda Knox; Not true - they smoked a bit of weed
the fact that Amanda knew details of the body and the wounds despite not being in line of sight of the body when it was discovered; Not true - the first people in the room told Rafaelle who told AK
the lies of Knox on the witness stand in July 2009 about how their drug intake that night (one joint) is totally contradicted by Sollecitos own contemporaneous diary; Proves what?
the fact that after a late evenings questioning, Knox wrote a 2,900 word email home which painstakingly details what she said happened that evening and the morning after that looks highly like someone committing to memory, at 3.30 in the morning, an extensive alibi; Proves what?
the fact that both Amanda and Raffaele both said they would give up smoking dope for life in their prison diaries despite having apparently nothing to regret; Probably because it made their memory of the evening a bit hazy - and look where that got them.
the fact that when Rudy Guede was arrested, Raffaele Sollecito didnt celebrate the true perpetrator being arrested (which surely would have seen him released) but worried in his diary that a man whom he said he didnt know would make up strange things about him despite him just being one person in a city of over 160,000 people; The man did in deed make up strange things about him - he was right to worry
the fact that both an occupant of the cottage and the police instantly recognised the cottage had not been burgled but had been the subject of a staged break-in where glass was on top of apparently disturbed clothes; Disproved
that Knox and Sollecito both suggested each other might have committed the crime and Sollecito TO THIS DATE does not agree Knox stayed in his flat all the night in question; Illegal interrogation again - they were both told the other would not support their alibi and asked to imagine what happened.
the bizarre behaviour of both of them for days after the crime; Media spin
the fact that cellphone records show Knox did not stay in Sollecitos flat but had left the flat at a time which is completely coincidental with Guedes corroborated presence near the girls flat earlier in the evening; not true
the fact that Amanda Knoxs table lamp was found in the locked room of Meredith Kercher in a position that suggested it had been used to examine for fine details of the murder scene in a clean up; there was no murder clean up
the unbelievable series of changing stories made up by the defendants after their versions became challenged; Knoxs inexplicable reaction to being shown the knife drawer at the girls cottage where she ended up physically shaking and hitting her head.
They changed their story only once - under the illegal interrogation. Imagine going to your house where your friend has been killed and being asked to check the knife drawer. That would probably make me freak out.
I've just read the first link about phone records and am completely baffled by what it is supposed to show. It suggests that RS and his dad, in the course of a 4 minute phonecall came up with the 'cover story' about a water leak. Further phonecalls, even shorter in duration, it suggests were for him and his father to get the murder alibi straight. I suspect that it would take longer than that to confess a murder to your dad and have him agree to cover it up for you.
Seriously? That's two links of bullshit. What's next?
Tigerlily, have you read my innocence project link? What do you make of it re Knox?
Porto, you are my hero. I could NOT be arsed going through all of that again so thanks for doing it!
I did noblegiraffe. She didn't confess though. She accused someone else.
That table lamp must have been pretty good during the clean up operation if they managed to get rid of all their DNA and manage to leave plenty of DNA belonging to the actual murderer.
Are people not embarrassed by the standard of argument which they are posting?
If all that you can pin on AK is that she made a false statement (under extreme duress, and she was manipulated into making) which she very quickly retracted and wasn't even included in court evidence then you are clutching at straws.
Tigerlily, people confess that they did a crime that they didn't when the police lead them in that direction. It is obvious, therefore, that people might point the finger at someone else, if, in similar circumstances, the police lead them in that direction.
"Are people not embarrassed by the standard of argument which they are posting?"
Marmalade, when have I ever said anything else? I've never said she's guilty of anything except defamation. In interested in the evidence other people have listed one way or another but it's all pretty tenuous on both sides due to the vast number of procedural errors. The only thing (IMO) that is certain us that Amanda Knox accused an innocent man of murder, and yes, there were mitigating factors, but that's still a pretty big deal.
Yes noblegiraffe I fully agree that someone might make an innocent man as a murderer when under pressure by the police. Srlf-evidently, Amanda Knox did. That doesn't make it right though, does it?
Sorry for typos. I will try to type less quickly! Should say someone might name an innocent man.
She didn't accuse him though. Under interrogation the police brought up the text he'd sent and used it to imply she must have met him that night and asked her to imagine what happened. The whole thing is so ridiculous it was ruled inadmissable in court. The police are to blame for Lumumba's arrest - not AK.
She was a young girl, in a foreign country being interrogated overnight by a huge group of police. She was not fluent in italian then.
You're essentially saying that because she caved under immense pressure and named her boss (quickly retracted, I remind you again) that she deserves no sympathy for four years of her life lost or the continuing smear campaign, perpetuated by foamy-mouthed tabloid-reading dullards. All because she was there, her life has gone to shite.
porto I am probably reaching the end if my limited knowledge of this case now but she was convicted of defamation. All of the mitigating factors cited on this thread would have been used by her defence team. She was still convicted.
I'm saying I don't have much sympathy for women who claim their boss murdered their friend, no.
And unfairly arrested or not, Patrick was let out relatively quickly. Yes, it must have been traumatic for him, but he has not suffered to the degree anyone else has.
I give up on that one. I would have a look at noble's link tiger if I were you.
Well if you're going to be like a dog with a bone on that one, so be it.
A bit mental though.
So you've read that it is possible to get people to even confess to crimes they didn't commit through poor interrogation methods and yet instead of being angry at the Italian police for leading Knox to blame an innocent man, and his arrest and imprisonment, you are blaming her?
Do you not have any sympathy for the people who confess to crimes they didn't commit, for their confessions either?
No, I feel very sorry for people who make false confessions. Not least because they are often of diminished mental capacity or are mentally ill. That's not the same as accusing someone else though is it? In the case of a false confession, the only person who suffers is the confessor (and the victim's family, by extension). In this case an innocent man has been grossly slandered. And despite suggestions up thread I think the effect on him must have been pretty material.
With regard to the police it seems that their incompetence / fixation on certain aspects of the crime over others has ruined the chances of there ever being real justice for Meredith or any kind of closure for her family. I and probably everyone on this thread blame them for that. Just because the police bungled the investigation though still doesn't make it ok to blame someone else.
No, I would have thought it would be even easier for the police to get someone to point the finger at someone else.
Re justice for Meredith - the guy who murdered her is in prison!
It might be easier but it's still not right to accuse an innocent man of a crime he didn't commit.
But Amanda Knox didn't just throw that name out there, did she?
Remember, the police mislead her AND exploited the fact that her Italian was sketchy. They told her that RS had implicated her in the murder, had told them that he was not with her that night (he explicitly told police that he WAS with her all night even though it is apparent that the police were goading him to say that they were apart that night, so that they could release him and focus their efforts on AK) and that AK had been at the house at the time of the murder. They then presented her with a hypothetical situation in which Patrick Lumumba might have been in the house and asked her to imagine what he might have been doing there. I would imagine that A LOT got lost in translation here. She didn't explicitly name PL as the killer, just discussed him in the context in which the police were leading her to. Remember also that they had found a hair belonging to a black person in the house and the text from AK to PL saying "See you later" when he had text her to say not to come to work that night. The police took "see you later" as hard evidence that AK and PL were planning on meeting the night the murder took place. Imagine having all of that fired at you, in a language you have scant knowledge of. I, at that age, would shit myself and want to get out of there and probably do or say what I thought the police wanted to hear. Not many kids of that age would feel any differently.
What I don't understand is that Rudy Guede has a reduced sentence for not being the only one iirc? If AK and RS are found not guilty wouldn't his sentence be changed?
RG got a reduced sentence because he went through a fast track trial. Basically, this is the option for (as I understand it) defendants who are basically fucked <technical legal term> either because they cannot prove beyond reasonable doubt that they are guilty, the prosecution is going to absolutely trounce the defence, they have no defence because of poor finances... So as a "reward" for not dragging out the trial process, they accept a reduced sentence which, let's face it, if you are going to be found guilty, is preferable to a 30-35 year stretch. 16 years for murder is pretty good, tbh.
Apparently, he will be eligible for work parole (allowed out of prison to work) in 2014. Will investigate that more, though...
but he has not suffered to the degree anyone else has.
No losing his livelihood, spending time in jail accused of murder with no evidence, not much suffering at all.
BTW I DID say that the links were biased and I did post links from both sides.
Can someone explain to me why Rudy Guede's DNA wasn't found in the small bathroom?
Or was it and I've missed that?
Ultimately the point about ak's defamation of PL boils down to do you think it was unreasonable for an adult woman to agree that her boss murdered her friend when put under pressure from interrogators during a 14 hour stretch. I accept the interrogation must have been terrifying, and that her language ability was limited. But I still think she was wrong, and her subsequent conviction and the failure of her appeal against her conviction do demonstrate that there's a weight of opinion in my favour.
Honestly I think if I was in that situation I would have just kept saying that I don't understand or want a lawyer.i don't for a second think that I'm unusually moral either, I personally believe most people I know well would do the same. None of us really know how we'd react under that kind of pressure but I think you're being overly charitable marmalade.
Also wrt the police lying and saying that RS did not confirm her alibi, or coming up with the suggestion of PL... That us their job. I would expect the police to do that. It's a pretty well known technique as well
I've seen it on Castle
No, his sentence was as a result of going for a fast track trial because he knew he'd be found guilty. Because he was the one who killed Meredith, not Raffaele and Amanda.
" None of us really know how we'd react under that kind of pressure but I think you're being overly charitable marmalade."
I think that that ^ is key.
I know what I would have done in her situation, had I been a naïve, young woman in a foreign country.
Also, she was being questioned, at this time, as a witness. The police had told her that to ask for a solicitor is as good as admitting you're involved. She didn't think, at that point, that a solicitor was needed. She could have gone home. She didn't. She stayed because she thought she could help. A decision she will rue for the rest of her life.
"For those of you who are determined that Knox/Sollecito are innocent, for reasons best known to yourselves, I would remind you that a lovely young girl was murdered. "
how strange. The evidence overwhelmingly shows they are not guilty.
Maybe this poster is one of those strange people who post on the sites that are determined that 'foxy knoxy' is some kind of she devil? scary people.
You know, them being innocent doesn't take away from the fact that a girl was murdered. In fact the person who murdered her is still in prison.
and how shocking that you call him the 'black guy' rather than using his real name. That's a bit fucked up right there!
I don't think they found Guede's DNA in the small bathroom. Just Meredith's and Amanda's,
You know about our talk guidelines?
What Sashh said about the Italian justice system.
And yes, even if a person has definitely committed another crime, say shoplifting, I would still have sympathy with them if they were falsely accused of murder.
It appears from the appeal report that under Italian law she was guilty of incriminating Lumumba but they took her age and the circumstances into account re. Sentencing. but they were very clear that despite what she said, it did not necessary implicate her in the murder - which was the prosecutions approach.
Amanda Knox was interrogated by police for 43 hours over 5 days after the murder. The last 8 hours, 12 detectives interviewed her overnight from 10.30pm to 6.30am in Italian when she had only the basics of the spoken language.
Fresh pairs of detectives came in every so often to renew the pressure. They asked the same questions over and over, they shouted, they told her to imagine their chosen scenario. They (allegedly) hit her on the back of the head.
She had no food or drink and was menstruating. When she asked whether she should have a lawyer, she was told 'it would make it worse'. Why? Why would the police deny her her basic rights?
If you are seeking the truth you make the person comfortable and relaxed.
If you want to confuse and break someone, this aggressive interrogation technique is a trusted tactic. (See FBI agent Steve Moore's comments about this in connection with the case http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/FBI7.html)
As mothers we have probably all suffered minor sleep deprivation with newborns. Can you imagine Amanda's state of mind after this final ruthless interrogation? Its aim is to deplete the person of rational thought, to make them anxious and confused and pliable.
I wonder how we - or our daughters - would have reacted in the same circumstances at that age in a strange country and a strange tongue.
Before she was even tried, Amanda was kept in jail ('for her own good') because she was considered a flight risk. Raffaele Sollecito was kept in solitary for six months. Six months in solitary. Imagine it.
They are both innocent, they are both victims and they and their families are financially broke. There is no evidence against them. and the Italian Supreme Court's ruling has ensured that their recently reclaimed lives are now firmly on hold. Maybe for years and years and years.
New Scientist's latest report on new software to detect DNA supports the innocence of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. (See http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23790-software-says-amanda-knoxs-dna-wasnt-at-crime-scene.html#.UdMqNfnrx2M)
My heart bleeds for Meredith Kercher and her family, but two wrongs do not make a right.
Excellent post, cupcake.
Agree. It makes me so fucking cross that people rehash the daily fail view each time this topic comes up here. Anyone with a brain can see there is no evidence. This was epitomised by the daily fail headline that they published the night they were acquitted. Guilty, and supposed comments from all those involved. Totally made up. It was quickly deleted of course.
And as someone obviously reported this thread, I would like to make clear to MNHQ that they were both acquitted and in my view commenting on their innocence does not breach talk guidelines.
And if MNHQ are referring to personal insults, there is more than one way to personally insult, as Wuldric aptly demonstrates above...
And it is interesting how It always comes back to AK when this is not what the thread was about. I am probably equally guilty.
link here in case anyone does not believe how the uk press reacted to their acquittal.
While we're on the topic of race and class privilege in this case, let's not pretend that only applies to Knox and Sollecito. Had they been suspected of murdering a poor black person, for example, no doubt it would've been less newsworthy. Lots of black feminists have written about how white victims get more coverage, more sympathy, more everything. They're not wrong. And look at, say, the epidemic of disappeared Native women in Canada, which nobody seems to give a fuck about. I realise poor Meredith was biracial, but as she had an Anglo name and was light skinned that wasn't immediately obvious to everyone. She was also, like Amanda, very pretty, clever and from a naice family. The ideal victim, if you like. When women disappear or get murdered and they've had the bad sense to be black, or poor, or easily discredited, or an illegal immigrant, the world gives much less of a shit. I trust, then, that the people outraged at the sympathy given to Knox and Sollecito make just as much noise about the comparative invisibility of black and poor victims. Both things stem from the same racist shit.
I totally agree that press attention is linked to certain "attributes". Already on this thread the question of class, colour, money have come up. None of these thins remotely influence the facts.
But it is not what we are discussing here. A whole other thread you should start I think.
I'm sure that AK and RD don't feel that their class or race helped them any. They've been ripped to shreds, regardless of their personal circumstances. How, exactly, has their race or class helped them?
That's a rhetorical question, btw
Chunder, they don't of course they don't. Press time is given to "sexy" victims. Or sexy criminals. 2 women a week are killed by their partners. Yet indiscriminate air time is given to the likes of AK. This thread is odd because it is not about her at all. But it all comes back to her. The op asked if she could feel sorry for Rafaelle. Someone much overlooked.
I remember when this first broke in the press. Had no idea if AK or RS were guilty or not. Jus remember beng furious and frustrated at the the way it was reported and AK especially was demonised. Even if she had been proven to be guilty, the coverage and the way she was portrayed and tried b media was appalling.
Also, people saying that they would never have caved or reacted as AK did under the kind of pressure that She was put under during her interviews/interrogation - well as soon as someone says something so stupid I just can't take you seriously.
"Also, people saying that they would never have caved or reacted as AK did under the kind of pressure that She was put under during her interviews/interrogation - well as soon as someone says something so stupid I just can't take you seriously"
Marmalade I think the point is that if Knox and Sollecito hadn't been white and middle class, their positions would've been much worse and perhaps people would have been less willing to give them any benefit of the doubt. Which is probably true. There's been quite a lot of research done about how black people tend to be more harshly penalised within criminal justice systems. Especially when the victims are lighter skinned than they are.
It's tragic all round, this case. The life lost, the lives ruined.
Rudy Guede was a lost child-adopted, messed-up, but so far as we know until this case had never done anything violent. AK and RS-well, I'm not in the convinced-of-their-innocence-camp, but the legal morass they've fallen into is appalling, and devastating for both families. Patrick Lumumba had an awful time, and what the Kerchers have gone through doesn't bear thinking about.
If these two are acquitted again they'll still be up against it financially and many won't believe they deserved to be acquitted. They have to live with that stigma. If they are found guilty, many won't believe that either and the controversy will drag on.
As an example of how not to conduct a murder inquiry and trial process, it could hardly be bettered.
I kind of see where you're coming from, Chunder. Police racism IS institutional and DOES affect outcomes of cases. Look at the poor Lawrences. And the countless cases in the U.S of black men being locked up for crimes that it was doubtful that they committed...
I just don't see it here, though. I think that there are more people that believe that AK and RS are guilty than not. And I think that a lot of people giving them the benefit of the doubt are doing just that, rather than reading through reports/evidence and knowing that they've been victims of injustice. Even if the retrial finds them not guilty (which I think it will) they aren't going to have an easy life. I don't think that class/colour has defended them from much.
We can't really see it here, only speculate, because both of them are white, middle class and good looking. But there is quite a lot of literature suggesting that being black would've made things worse for them because it does generally. Obviously, if innocent, they've been through a colossal amount. It's just that it could've been even worse and might well have been if not for their race and class. The issue isn't so much how many people believe them to be guilty, it's whether even more people would do if they had different racial and social backgrounds.
I do get your argument Chunder but don't think this is the best case to argue it. As in the black guy - ie Rudy Guede undoubtedly did it. DNA on poor Meredith's body, hand prints, foot prints, fleeing abroad etc, and the white MC "good looking" ones got all the attention from the press and longer sentences initially despite there being a total lack of evidence. This was more about face saving on the part of the Italian police than racism.
Its not a case that "he is black, must be guilty" He was given a much lighter sentence than the other 2 despite being the only one who the evidence put at the scene.
Interesting thought - if they had been poor and black.....There would have been none of the media demonization/hysteria. Would that have guaranteed them a fairer trial? it would have been based on the evidence alone? Would they have had the wherewithal to appeal?
After skim reading through these comments I can honestly say I am appalled that so many people feel fit to comment on this case when they have failed to do any research whatsoever.
For starters, it seems we have a number of mothers on this board who are happy with animal pornography. Personally, I find this to be as evil and disgusting as child pornography. Sollecito, the pervert many here are happy to champion, has a factually proven addiction to animal porn! As far as I am concerned, he should be locked up for this alone!
The father of Meredith Kercher, the only victim here, has been privy to vastly more information, fact and evidence that a single person on this board, and he has confirmed that he believes Knox is guilty. Both Knox and Sollecito were joined at the hip and it goes without saying that he was also involved.
It takes in excess of 8 hours to read thoroughly through the Micheli and the Massei Reports, and more time still to read the Galati over-turning but you do then put yourself in the position of knowing what you are talking about, unlike the armchair pundits on this post.
Sollecito left his DNA on poor Meredith's bra clasp, and both Knox and Meredith's biological material was on a knife found in Sollecito's kitchen drawer!!! This is a tiny percentage of the evidence against them!
Rather than sympathise with the two people who tortured poor Meredith to death why don't you try putting yourself in the Kerchers shoes! Imagine if they noticed this board and read these comments! Most of the commentators here are completely ignorant of the facts and have moronically fallen for the misrepresentations vomited out by the Knox PR machine! Shame on them!
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