to not understand appeal of Caitlin Moran writing for The Times?

(316 Posts)
ARealDame Sun 30-Jun-13 11:37:07

She always has at least a couple of articles in The Times on Saturday, including her TV reviews, and seems to be heavily promoted there at the moment.

But I often find her writing cringeworthy e.g. this Saturday TV reviewing The White Queen headlines "She Makes Ingrid Bergman look like Someone Stuck Tits on a Turnip". Last Saturday, reviewing exactly the same programme (did anyone at The Times notice hmm?) the review headlined Battles, Castles and Tons of Fruity Historical Humping. Is she just being crass/offensive for the sake of it? And I find so much of her writing self-adulating plus impossible to make any sense of, a jumble of thoughtless sentences stuck together ... almost like a teenager on speed.

It seems a shame when The Times on Saturday has some enjoyable journalism e.g. the often brilliant Janice Turner, Matthew Paris, Giles Coran, plus some great review stuff of the Arts.

My heart just sinks when I see her bylines and picture. AIBU ?

Korovaj Sun 30-Jun-13 11:42:55

Her book on 'how to be a woman' is one of the most odious bits of drivel I have read in a very long time....

OwlinaTree Sun 30-Jun-13 11:45:25

I follow her on twitter, but have not read any of her articles as you have to pay for the times on line. She's quite good on twitter.

Well tbf she is very POPULAR and really QUITE CLEVER.That article was LITTERED with riffs on modern culture. I imagine that if the Times bosses don't LIKE it they wouldn't keep her.

So NER.

burberryqueen Sun 30-Jun-13 12:38:45

YANBU she dresses and writes like a silly teenager

picnicbasketcase Sun 30-Jun-13 12:40:19

grin BoysAreLikeDogs, that was quite uncanny.

perplexedpirate Sun 30-Jun-13 12:41:08

I like her. I find her funny and relevant.
So ner! wink

Justfornowitwilldo Sun 30-Jun-13 12:54:37

Your problem is reading The Times.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 30-Jun-13 12:56:52

Yanbu.

Wildly overrated.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Sun 30-Jun-13 12:59:17

I cannot comment on her writing, but I doubt she writes her own headlines. Don't they have sub-editors for that kind of thing?

Crowler Sun 30-Jun-13 13:02:21

I am always a bit hmm when people ask me if I've read Caitlin Moran such-and-such book. Honestly, I don't think she's all that clever. I don't like her chick-lit journalism.

noddyholder Sun 30-Jun-13 13:03:06

Not keen at all Tries too hard and misses imho

CharlotteBronteSaurus Sun 30-Jun-13 13:04:39

i like her a lot
i think she's very funny, and much less snipey/cruel than lots of columnists out there. her columns are usually a break from all that endless negativity

specialsubject Sun 30-Jun-13 13:07:29

Usually dull, but this week's stuff on Glastonbury was quite good.Loved the bit about girls who sit on boyfriend's shoulders being selfish attention-seekers. It boiled down to 'Get on the ground, bimbo - you are blocking people's view.'

HumphreyCobbler Sun 30-Jun-13 13:09:06

I like her. She is funny. CW normally makes me giggle.

Surely one would be foolish to expect to like all columnists in a paper? One of the things I like about the Times is the varied opinion and writing style. I don't like India Knight or Minette Marin, but I don't think the worse of the paper for including them.

Wossname Sun 30-Jun-13 13:10:10

I really liked her until I saw her on telly.

CaptainJamesTKirk Sun 30-Jun-13 13:12:46

I agree with burberryqueen. I really don't get the appeal.

Zynia41 Sun 30-Jun-13 13:15:50

I don't follow her on twitter but I think it's a good job she's reminding conservative privileged people that benefits does not equal evil. She's doing a good job. keep it up. Although yes, my mother looked at the picture of her posing as though she were on the loo with a piece of toilet paper and sighed and tried to make sense of it. She may be annoying in rl, but what she says ought to be said. Laughing is irrelevant!

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Sun 30-Jun-13 13:24:23

i like her. why does her dress sense even get a mention on a thread discussing her writing though? hmm

burberryqueen Sun 30-Jun-13 13:26:41

because there is a massive pic of her in the middle of the column? I mean you can't help it!

hollyisalovelyname Sun 30-Jun-13 13:55:10

Bit of 'Emperor's new clothes' bout Caitlin Moran methinks.

littlewhitebag Sun 30-Jun-13 14:10:35

I think she is hilarious she writes the sort of things I often think. Leave her alone.

trice Sun 30-Jun-13 14:12:22

She makes me laugh. I think she is clever and funny. I don't read the times though.

GreenShadow Sun 30-Jun-13 14:13:01

I used to like her and am old enough to remember her being discovered by The Times as a teenager.
Maybe I've got older and her writing hasn't, but I feel I've grown out of her.

Snazzywaitingforsummer Sun 30-Jun-13 14:17:52

She can make a good point when she wants to but I find her style really IRRITATING. Some parts of How To Be A Woman were great but the whole thing was wildly overpraised as the Best Work of Feminism Ever.

themaltesecat Sun 30-Jun-13 15:04:22

"Fifi Adelsmythe" nailed her perfectly [[http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/reviewofbooks_preview/10740 here].

themaltesecat Sun 30-Jun-13 15:04:58

Here, even.

EliotNess Sun 30-Jun-13 15:06:24

Because SHE LOVES THE ECLAMATION MARK!!!
And trying to pretend SHE'S ONE OF US!!!

EliotNess Sun 30-Jun-13 15:08:37

That book was so dire. Really terrible. I don't get the appeal.

I liked her on here years ago. I think she's lovely in rl. Just THE STYLE MAN

Kveta Sun 30-Jun-13 15:12:11

YABU - I don't read the Times, and had never read any CM stuff, but got a copy of Moranthology from MN, and LOVE it! Possibly reading several columns by her a week would grate, but I haven't found out yet.

I like her writing style anyway, but I guess there will be other newspaper columnists whose style I don't (Tim Dowling, for example - DH loves his writing, I find it pretty tedious).

Thurlow Sun 30-Jun-13 15:14:40

Ditto, greenshadow, I remember her from when she was writing as a teenager.

I like her, I generally find her very funny - the other week's column about how she would console herself if her husband died by focusing on how much space she would be able to reclaim in the fridge made me chuckle. And I like her TV reviews. But I do agree that occasionally she is a bit OTT and some of her comparisons are a bit silly and stressed, probably because they are what she is known for and she feels she has to put them in.

When I was in labour the one mantra I focused on was her comment about labour being the one good pain, the one pain that is meant to happen and has a definite end point and a good reason for happening. I like her honesty about labour, and also when she admitted she had chosen to have an abortion.

hermioneweasley Sun 30-Jun-13 15:14:43

"emperors new clothes" - she's been around for 20 years!

Personally I like her style, as does my 70something mum, but it is qute a distinct and quirky style so I can see that it won't appeal to everyone.

Chunderella Sun 30-Jun-13 15:18:09

The problem with spiked is that quite often the people who write for it are cunts.

Salbertina Sun 30-Jun-13 15:20:51

Like her on the whole, v witty and admire how she's got herself where she is entirely on her own merit!! Hardly typical for a broad-sheet journalist.. However, hate her childish SHOUTY CAPItALS.

hollyisalovelyname Sun 30-Jun-13 15:26:12

Hermione that's not what I meant by 'Emperor's new clothes' - this saying means that many people agree that something is wonderful but they are only saying that because they feel they have to agree with the general consensus or appear stupid.

PoppyAmex Sun 30-Jun-13 15:29:21

I think she must be tiresome to be around.

themaltesecat Sun 30-Jun-13 15:30:00

Well, Chunderella, I'd say only about 30% of Spiked writers are cunts, which is a lot lower than, say, the percentage of Times writers who are cunts.

The Spiked article is very funny and its writer is an extremely talented woman. Only a handful of writers in England today could write such a pitch-perfect satire.

TanteRose Sun 30-Jun-13 15:30:43

SCREAM! I like her grin

Somewhere I have a clipping of her first ever column, written for the Observer when she won their Young reporter of the year in 1991 (?)

I have stopped paying for the Times so don't get my weekly fix anymore

She is the one reason that might make me join Twitter one day...

themaltesecat Sun 30-Jun-13 15:32:12

Disclaimer: my husband is an occasional contributor to Spiked (but isn't Fifi Adelsmythe). He is not remotely cuntish.

JazzDalek Sun 30-Jun-13 15:39:44

Haven't read her book, but rather like her columns. I find her quite a bit less obnoxious and self-congratulatory than most columnists.

Chunderella Sun 30-Jun-13 15:40:48

I wouldn't consider myself qualified to provide a comparative analysis as to whether Spiked or The Times has more cunts, themaltesecat, having never met anyone who wrote for the latter. So I shan't dispute your contention. As for the author of the article, she may well be very funny but if she is, the best of her isn't in this piece. It isn't particularly intelligent or insightful satire. I mean, it's alright. It's entertaining enough in a throwaway way, but pretty obvious. Like Moran. I get what she's trying to do. I suppose if we were going to get all serious about it and shit, we could pull apart her insinuation that stripping is about titillating working class men as opposed to middle class men. It wouldn't take long. But I don't think an incorrect premise in itself makes this particular writer a cunt.

Tee2072 Sun 30-Jun-13 15:41:35

I bought How To Be A Woman on Kindle when it was half price or something.

I can't seem to get through it.

I'm glad I didn't pay full price for it.

Chunderella Sun 30-Jun-13 15:42:07

Oh, I wrote my last post before seeing your last one.

NutcrackerFairy Sun 30-Jun-13 15:49:07

I am a bit meh about CM - neither particularly like nor dislike her.

Her writing is mildly enjoyable and mildly irritating in equal measure.

But I have seen a recent photo of her that I loathe, she is acting all twee and cutesy and has her tongue stuck between her teeth like a three year old.

She looks so pretentious in it, it makes me want to bleurgh.

So at the moment I feel I bit vomitus when I think of Caitlin Moran grin

EliotNess Sun 30-Jun-13 15:49:15

I found the book akin to an overtired 9 year old who had been allowed to stay up late at a dinner party.

Salbertina Sun 30-Jun-13 15:52:55

Think Hadley Freeman rather more interesting, mature and thoughtful and writing in similar vein.

Agree, she's overrated and quite annoying with it. I tried to like her. I WANTED to like her.

I hate the stupid, gurning "I'm mad, me!" face she pulls in every photo taken of her, ever.

themaltesecat Sun 30-Jun-13 16:00:47

Chunderella, fair enough. I do believe the very obviousness of the piece is just right in a satire of Moran. But if you don't like it, then you don't like. Personally, I can't read the phrase "knicker-shittingly hilarious" without a good guffaw.

This particular writer ("Fifi") is someone I quite admire. I thought she held her own in the recent shit-storm over a very different sort of piece. Anyway, she's ten times the feminist Moran is, in my opinion.

Anyway, back to the original topic: Moran is rubbish.

noddyholder Sun 30-Jun-13 16:01:48

The thinner she gets the more she indulges that cutesy nonsense Hypocritical

FourEyesGood Sun 30-Jun-13 16:06:08

Another CM defender here. I really like her and have recommended How To Be A Woman to many of the older girls at my school (16+, but I think some of the Y10s could get a lot out of it) as a sort of beginner's guide to feminism. She's witty, honest and accessible. And unlike so many writers, doesn't take herself too seriously.

noddyholder Sun 30-Jun-13 16:07:01

Feminist? I think some true feminists would dispute that

HarumScarum Sun 30-Jun-13 16:07:26

Sorry, I was all ready to agree with you, OP, until you got to Janice Turner and Giles Coren. I would read books worth of Caitlin in preference to those two (and I am far from her biggest fan).

Salbertina Sun 30-Jun-13 16:08:46

Oh she IS a true 21st century feminist, in my book, despite her failings!

Bexicles Sun 30-Jun-13 16:09:37

I still like her, I remember reading her in the Melody Maker years ago. She's bright and articulate. Maybe she does come across as a 30 something mum still trying to be down, that's fine by me!

Chunderella Sun 30-Jun-13 16:12:06

She may be ten times the feminist themaltesecat, I don't know. You probably know better than I do on that score. This is the only piece of hers I've ever read, to my knowledge anyway (hope I'm not blowing anyone's cover by suggesting a pseudonym might have been used!).

I find the attempt at dealing with class issues in the article pretty unconvincing, though. Writing it as some luvvie looking down on the proles simply won't do. Moran, whatever you think of her, is one of a very small number of famous journalists to have had anything close to a working class upbringing. It seems rather odd to have a punt at her and not one of the ones who has marinated in unacknowledged privilege. Additionally, I really hope Fifi has herself experienced being a young woman on a council estate being shouted at and feeling threatened by working class men. If she hasn't, then I'm afraid that slagging Moran for articulating her experience of it does perhaps veer towards cuntlitude.

LadyBryan Sun 30-Jun-13 16:14:43

I find her utterly odious. HTBaW was utter tripe IMO

williaminajetfighter Sun 30-Jun-13 16:17:07

I don't mind her writing but have seen a few interviews with her - most recently at the Hay Festival - and she was soooo gobby and talkative like she was on coke. It was irritating and really turned me off.

Sadly I think a lot of 'personality-based' journalists quickly become caricatures of themselves...

stepawayfromthescreen Sun 30-Jun-13 16:31:46

she's very talented, but tries too hard to be young, fun and cool. I'd like her to be serious on occasion. Sometimes you need to calm the fuck down and grow up a little.

exoticfruits Sun 30-Jun-13 16:36:22

I find her very irritating and don't bother to read most of her articles. I inwardly groan a bit when I see the amount of space she is given some weeks.

AberdeenAngusina Sun 30-Jun-13 17:24:57

I like her.

gettingeasiernow Sun 30-Jun-13 17:25:34

Also find her massively overrated. Amusing sometimes admittedly, but there it ends. Find How to be a Woman very depressing.

luckypeach Mon 01-Jul-13 00:03:31

Initially I found HTBAW quite funny esp the bit about a fanny tax but by the end of it OH MY GOD I found her INTENSELY irritating and SO smug, I wanted to punch her. Her attitude came across as cavalier and trite when she wrote about having an abortion.

Think she tries too hard, can't bear her on twitter esp the chummy banter between her and her hampstead luvvie mates.

Don't believe for a minute that her home-schooling upbringing was as 'oh look at me, am working class me' as she makes out either. Think she's got a TV sitcom or series coming out soon, raised by wolves, god help us biscuit

CoolStoryBro Mon 01-Jul-13 00:33:27

I was very unimpressed with HTBAW but I loved Moranthology. I found it intelligent, perceptive and very witty.

I also don't think what she looks like is relevant at all.

DramaAlpaca Mon 01-Jul-13 00:44:20

YANBU. She's trying too hard to be young & cool & just comes across as irritating. I only read excerpts from HTBAW & that was more than enough. She's a grown woman writing in the style of an over-excited teenager and I find her extremely annoying.

YABU - she's brilliant. Compare the throwaway TV reviews with, for example, her article about library closures. Or even the non-throwaway TV reviews such as the Sri Lankan killings.

I had to unfollow her on Twitter due to the endless banter with Hampstead luvvie mates as well. My feed was cluttered up with her and Lauren Laverne talking to each other and it drove me NUTS. Use private messaging! Or email! Just... something private!

FridaKarlov Mon 01-Jul-13 10:17:35

I like her! I think How To Be A Woman is a decent pop feminism book- wish it was around when I was a teenager. I used to read Melody Maker a lot as a kid so have kind of grown up with her. Agree that she can come across as a bit of a knob sometimes and the luvvie banter with her contemporaries can grate, but I reckon she'd be a lot of fun to hang out with. Not sure why her appearance is relevant but for what it's worth I like her style. Is there some sort of unwritten rule that as soon as a woman hits her 30s and has kids she suddenly has to whip out the Boden catalogue?

wishingchair Mon 01-Jul-13 10:32:08

Love her on twitter (apart from the constant chat between her and Lauren Laverne!), can't get through How to be a Woman, refuse to buy the Times (just can't relate to it these days) so don't read her in there.

Yawn though at the debate on here about whether she is a proper feminist or not. What? Don't get it. Does she want equal rights for women and girls ... yes. Do I want equal rights for women and girls ... yes. Do "proper feminists" want equal rights for women and girls ... yes. We're all feminists. Let's not lose the point by getting tied up in pointless differentiating technicalities.

Trills Mon 01-Jul-13 10:36:39
Trills Mon 01-Jul-13 10:37:49

I enjoy her writing.

You don't.

Many other people do.

Many other people do not.

Yet more people have no opinion.

Where's the question of reasonableness?

BabCNesbitt Mon 01-Jul-13 10:38:52

Luckypeach, have you got reasons for suggesting that she's exaggerating the 'working class-ness' of her upbringing?

mignonette Mon 01-Jul-13 10:40:07

Accidentally self parodying. It seems to be hard to escape this with the tireless over promotion by those she is contracted to.

More seriously when she referred to 'Mentals' in a column after writing about her friend with Schizophrenia in a previous one was the day I stopped reading the hypocritical confused little dear. I took the mentals comment as a gesture of support for her little friend India seeing as it was published around that time.

MarmaladeTwatkins Mon 01-Jul-13 10:46:28

I used to LOVE her. proper fangirl, I was. Then...

She was a wanker with India Knight about mental health and she seems to have started to believe her own hype a bit so I have gone off her. And she was a wanker to someone I am friends with, when she was trying to prove herself at MM. The "apology" in the introduction of Moranthology didn't quite cut it either, Caitlin.

mignonette Mon 01-Jul-13 10:57:00

But didn't you all know CM taught womankind to masturbate whilst wearing eyeliner.....

What did we all do before her.....?

Snazzywaitingforsummer Mon 01-Jul-13 10:57:58

The 'mentals' references have pushed things over the edge a bit. I think she and India have both developed a bit of a 'don't you know who I am?' complex in response to any criticism even when they are in the wrong.

Marmalade I agree about believing the hype - shame as I think HTBAW has some good points - the sections about children, or not having children, and abortion are good, the bit about having to pay to have a vagina is really good as a focused argument to present to younger women - and overall is a good popular book about feminism. But the publicity around it was so hagiographic at times that it just became cringeworthy. The line on the blurb about it being 'The Female Eunuch rewritten from a bar stool', for instance, plus, among the slew of articles the Guardian published on it was the one with someone saying the history of feminism would now refer to 'Before Caitlin' and 'After Caitlin'. Come on!

noddyholder Mon 01-Jul-13 11:03:53

I have met her a few times and she is like the school show off

mignonette Mon 01-Jul-13 11:07:35

Think she wants to be friends with Cara Delevigne hence all that tragic tongue poking.....

ElectricSoftParade Mon 01-Jul-13 11:11:20

I liked her for a while but now have gone off her. Not too sure why but I think Noddy has it.

Although I do think HTBAW is worth reading, especially for younger women.

MarmaladeTwatkins Mon 01-Jul-13 11:12:00

Pray, tell, nodders...

ElectricSoftParade Mon 01-Jul-13 11:12:47

But I haven't been able to bring myself to buy Moranthology. Will wait for it in the charity shop.

<sticks out tongue and pulls "wacky" face>

Ashoething Mon 01-Jul-13 11:15:52

I bought How to be a Woman after the rave reviews on here. What a pile of shit! Lady Gaga as a feminist icon? really? I don't believe for one minute that Caitlin came from the kind of background she portrays in the book either.

ButchCassidy Mon 01-Jul-13 11:22:54

I love hersmile

Remotecontrolduck Mon 01-Jul-13 11:37:13

Find her totally obnoxious!

BumgrapesofWrath Mon 01-Jul-13 12:20:39

I do quite like her, but recently I've got annoyed at how she has to remind us that she smokes "fags" in every single column, like she's too cool for school

stepawayfromthescreen Mon 01-Jul-13 13:11:37

I've never heard her speak.
I've just youtubed her.
Oh Dear.

Lottapianos Mon 01-Jul-13 13:20:54

'She may be annoying in rl, but what she says ought to be said.'

This pretty much sums up how I feel about her. I thought 'How To Be A Woman' was full of incredibly brave and honest stuff which needed saying and good for her for doing so and for talking about feminism in a way that appeals to younger women. And by the by, I love her dress sense!

However...... She really is Chief Arselicker To The Stars, which I find properly cringey. The constant references to fags and booze are really tiresome and a bit worrying. She's in that little Twitter clique full of fellow journos who all seem to behave like they're in Mean Girls. Whenever I see/hear her interviewed, she comes across to me as someone who is extremely insecure and fragile, but feels she has to cover it by being noisy and sweary and in-yer-face. I can understand this (I have done it myself) but it just doesn't sit right. And I do think she's extremely overrated as a writer.

MarmaladeTwatkins Mon 01-Jul-13 13:28:34
wordfactory Mon 01-Jul-13 13:32:32

I like her writing.

I find it funny and often close to the bone. I'm glad she says some of the things she does. Someone needs to.

Her use of CAPS LOCK and !!!!!! can get a bit repetitive, but that's her style. So why should she change it?

No one has to read what she says, of course.

Lottapianos Mon 01-Jul-13 13:34:54

'No one has to read what she says, of course'

Eh no, but people can still have an opinion on what she writes!

HandMini Mon 01-Jul-13 13:38:15

I like her writing and I liked most of HTBAW.

However, I think she's overexposed now (I guess that's always going to happen as writers need to churn it out while they're popular). Is Moranthology very similar to HTBAW?

I find it slightly at odds that she fashions herself as alternative / rootsy and then chooses to write for a mainstream establishment newspaper. And doing the TV reviews - that's just cheap - she's got interesting things to say and she challenges convention (admittedly often in an annoying way) why the duck would she agree to do TV reviews - IMO TV reviews should be what the work experiences cut their teeth on. I suppose she's being paid for it....

She should also acknowledge that while her roots may be genuinely working class / non-fee paying education / no university etc and she did very admirably break into the media world without mummy and daddy's help (see Giles Coren, Toby Young, Daisy Waugh....lots more) she's now a hugely cliquey journo hoovering up the freebies and the column inches with the best of them. It's ok to change like that, but why not be honest about where your life focuses now as opposed to how your life was growing up?

wordfactory Mon 01-Jul-13 13:42:27

Hand I think the telly reviews section is a job she likes! She's the first to admit how much telly she watches and how much she likes it.

Plus journos don't get paid much. They take whatever gigs come their way. Can't afford not to.

stepawayfromthescreen Mon 01-Jul-13 13:45:19

Journos don't get paid much? That's so untrue. Unless you're talking about local press. National newspaper journos, in particular columnists like Moran, are VERY well paid indeed.

wordfactory Mon 01-Jul-13 13:51:39

Not unless they do quite a few gigs, they don't!

One column will not usually keep a family in London.

stepawayfromthescreen Mon 01-Jul-13 13:56:59

I disagree.
I know someone (not Moran) doing this and she earns more than enough and has holiday home abroad and is sole breadwinner on it too.

stepawayfromthescreen Mon 01-Jul-13 13:57:14

and no family money, no connections!

wordfactory Mon 01-Jul-13 13:58:41

And how many columns do they write?

ARealDame Mon 01-Jul-13 14:06:40

Has been interesting to see others' comments. Just for clarity, I print here a random extract from her "TV review" (and I use the term loosely) of The White Queen from previous week:

"By the time Grey's walking down a shady country lane, a certain level of alarm rose in the viewer. F***ing hell - this is basically turning into the medieval version of the video of Peter Kay's The Way to Amarillo. They're not going to stop until she's walked past a beach, a funfair and a plague pit, joined by Bernie Clifton and Shakin' Stevens.

But no! For, on finding a particular tree - a massive oak- Elizabeth finally stops and waits. Why? Is this huge treat actually a massive Elizabeth Arden Beauty Spa, in disguise -and she's booked in for a Mini-Pedi & Lash Tint? No.

The tree, is in actual fact, a King Magnet! It magically draws any passing king who is wearing armour to it-as evidenced by the fact that literally Edward IV suddenly appears at this specific tree for absolutely no reaon at all, and takes off his helmet - revealing his ASTONISHING HOTNESS.

When he sees Lady Elizabeth Grey - just hangin' by the tree, like you do in 1464, just doing a bit of casual oak-leaning - he smiles, like Danny Zuko in Grease when he sees ..."

OK, nuff, ed..

This goes on for about 10 paragraphs in the same vein. Its almost complete and total gibberish!

stepawayfromthescreen Mon 01-Jul-13 14:11:20

I'm not giving details, I don't need to prove their earnings, or inadvertently out them, lol!

Twitchycurtains Mon 01-Jul-13 14:12:24

Arf at the notion that Moran isn't paid very well for what she does, she may well have come from humble roots but she has certainly come a long way since then, pretending otherwise is a tad disingenuous. I don't mind her writing, enjoy some of her columns but like most of the cliquey literati on twitter she throws major strops if anybody dares disagree with her or any of her mates. Her arse licking of Lena Dunham was pathetic and embarrassing.

Willemdefoeismine Mon 01-Jul-13 14:16:18

I think her style of writing reads a bit like Cosmo journalists from the 1980s! I didn't ever 'get' her and avoided her columns but have seen a couple of amusing Q&A sessions she's done and revised my opinion. Still not entirely convinced but some pieces are more amusing than others!

I think she's a bit of a Marmite journalist!

wordfactory Mon 01-Jul-13 14:17:23

stepaway no one asked for earnings. Just how many columns they wrote!!

wordfactory Mon 01-Jul-13 14:19:05

twitchy I'm sure is paid well in the scheme of things. But I'd be very suprised if just one column a week would be enough.

Trills Mon 01-Jul-13 14:21:07

I found that extract amusing.

Just goes to show that it's mostly about whether how she writes is to yur taste or not.

I think she takes the same approach to TV reviewing as Giles Coren does to restaurant reviewing. The sim is not to help you to decide if you want to watch that TV show (or go to that restaurant). The aim is to write something that is entertaining to read, with the vague theme being "what I watched on telly last week" (or "a restaurant that I went to this week").

noddyholder Mon 01-Jul-13 14:22:26

Yes at that level the pay is very good. I have a friend too doing this and she is also single parent and no shortage of holidays cars eating out houses etc.

wordfactory Mon 01-Jul-13 14:24:27

I'd say about a grand per column.

So I'd doubt she could keep a family of four on one column a week!

noddyholder Mon 01-Jul-13 14:27:23

My friend not as well known and no books etc and she earns way more than that. I think MN has a warped view of the salaries of creative jobs Theybare always well underestimated. I work in creative industry and it is a career that is often mocked on MN but it is not badly paid at all

Twitchycurtains Mon 01-Jul-13 14:34:02

Columns, books, tv appearances, other related articles, it all adds up, her husband is a journo too ( I think). I read somewhere this week that the obviously in need of an intervention Jiz Moans gets paid £1 a word, now, that nearly knocked me for six.

wordfactory Mon 01-Jul-13 14:34:08

More than a grand per column?

wordfactory Mon 01-Jul-13 14:36:13

twitchy I'm certain CM does very well financially.

But that's in part becuase she's prolific. My point was simply that she will have to do more than her one gig a week to make a decent living.

As for her husband, I believe he works part time in the music industry. CM is the main breadwinner.

stepawayfromthescreen Mon 01-Jul-13 14:36:51

I agree Noddy.
A grand per column!!!
Lol!

ElectricSoftParade Mon 01-Jul-13 14:37:23

Off topic but I read this weekend Lizzy Jones is paid £1 per word shock

Trills Mon 01-Jul-13 14:39:13

So pretty much in line with the "about a grand a column" mentioned above then?

wordfactory Mon 01-Jul-13 14:39:41

Yup.

And if a column is about 1000 words, thats...a grand a column.

wordfactory Mon 01-Jul-13 14:41:35

Yes indeed Trills.

Would love to know who these hacks are who earn soooo much more than LJ wink...

GoshAnneGorilla Mon 01-Jul-13 14:42:59

I could bepulling this out if my posterior, but I'm sure I read she was on a seriously large sum annually from the Times alone. She is one of their "star columnists" so I doubt the pay scales for normal journos apply.

Yes, the Lena Dunham arselicking was very sad. Basically, "I don't want to ask her any hard questions because she's my fwend".

stepawayfromthescreen Mon 01-Jul-13 14:43:24

yes because all columnists are paid exactly the same and have the same output...

stepawayfromthescreen Mon 01-Jul-13 14:44:15

Yes gosh, the annual fee. Hikes it up somewhat.

limitedperiodonly Mon 01-Jul-13 14:44:18

I lasted 33 seconds with that link marmalade

Salbertina Mon 01-Jul-13 14:46:15

I have 25,000 words (sadly academic research, unpaid) to write... £££ if a £1 a word! Now THAT would be motivating grin

mignonette Mon 01-Jul-13 14:46:33

Marmalade

That VT....Oh dear fucking hell God. Please tell me that is ironic....Wearing make up all the time is a mental illness according to the eminent psychiatrist Salli Hughes.

Bourjois eye pencil? shouldn't it be 'Bourgeois' eye liner in the spirit of the whole conversation...
LJ apparently gets paid £1 a word according to a vile interview by Lynn Barber published this weekend.

noddyholder Mon 01-Jul-13 14:46:56

I know a couple who do. If you work for a major paper you don't solely write your column and contribute nothing else. My friend I knw for a fact earns much more than that so the LJ estimate must be way out.

noddyholder Mon 01-Jul-13 14:49:55

Gosh that is right she would not be paid the same as other columnists. My friend is well known in her field it's not as popular as CM more serious but she is still the face of the topic iygwim. If she only earned 1k per week she would not be living the life she is in london.

Naebother Mon 01-Jul-13 14:50:13

I
Always
Liked her.

She is funny.

GoshAnneGorilla Mon 01-Jul-13 14:50:30

Ahh,I knew I heard it from somewhere.

CM is on a £250k contact according to: www.standard.co.uk/news/journalists-in-twitter-spat-following-news-of-the-world-closure-6420206.html

mignonette Mon 01-Jul-13 14:55:21

RE Gosh's Link about CM's 'jpkes'-

Sick of people who make nasty comments that are then rationalised as 'jokes'. CM and her little gang of mean girls are prime exponents of this. Be braver and own it.

stepawayfromthescreen Mon 01-Jul-13 14:57:05

many, not all, have high paying contracts

I quite like her. She made me laugh with her reviews about the squirrel from the Great British Bake Off.

What does annoy me are the people on Twitter who try so hard to be like CM. It's cringey.

limitedperiodonly Mon 01-Jul-13 14:58:45

I strongly disagree that the work experience person should be doing TV reviews.

TV is a really important art form - and no, I'm not kidding. You can review seriously, or for laughs or both at the same time. Sometimes I prefer the reviews to the actual programme.

Can't really comment on Caitlin Moran's reviews, never having finished a whole one. The WORDY WORDS and contrived references to pop culture THINGS AND PEOPLE WHAT I'VE NOTICED!!!!!! tend to swim before my eyes about three lines in.

I love Ally Ross, though, amongst others, none of whom being called Giles Coren.

MarmaladeTwatkins Mon 01-Jul-13 15:00:46

I know. That link, yeah? Pair of dicks.

wordfactory Mon 01-Jul-13 15:02:57

£250k a year.

Four to five columns a week = a grand a column!

limitedperiodonly Mon 01-Jul-13 15:04:48

Mind you, now I've read gosh's link to the hysterics of that foot-stampy little turd Dan Wootton, Caitlin Moran has gone up a bit in my estimation.

stepawayfromthescreen Mon 01-Jul-13 15:05:42

yes, but this is a basic salary. They get much more than this in total. And if that's 'not much' in your world, you're probably E.LJames!

GoshAnneGorilla Mon 01-Jul-13 15:08:04

Agree Limited.

Without sounding too stalkery, but I remember you from the Romanzo Criminale threads.

I loved Romanzo Criminale, it's probably one of my favourite tv series ever. Unfortunately RC wasn't that popular over here and for me, one of the big downsides of that was not getting to read a really good review/dissection of it, which would make you ponder about what you've seen, or notice something you had missed. Good criticism is an artform, IMHO.

noddyholder Mon 01-Jul-13 15:08:34

I agree the basic salary is not all they get. I would say C M earns way more than 250k.

cocolepew Mon 01-Jul-13 15:09:06

I read Moranology (or whatever it was called blush) I found it hard going especially the bits she had written about her conversations with her husband. I get the impression she doesn't let the truth get in the way of a good story.

noddyholder Mon 01-Jul-13 15:10:22

My friend doesn't get paid per column either as some weeks she doesn't write one and other weeks when her 'subject' is in the news a lot (financial) she may write every day. The basic is a retainer of sorts.

wordfactory Mon 01-Jul-13 15:15:09

noddy I agree that CM probably earns more than £250k a year. But as I say, she's hugely prolific and writes for lots of different media.

I meant 250k from NI sounds about right, for four to five columns a week.

limitedperiodonly Mon 01-Jul-13 15:18:37

Stalk away gosh. I've done it to you. I was several episodes behind on RC and when I finished it I searched for you because I couldn't find any reviews and I was itching to find out what someone else who'd watched it said.

Did you watch Sky Arts' Corleone about Toto Riina and Sicily's maxi-trial and the Mafia murders of judges and police? It was a more conventional telling of Italian organised crime. Not as good as RC (there was a small overlap of time and events) but still good, until the final episode, which was a bit flat.

If I was Clive James I could probably express it better than that grin

Lottapianos Mon 01-Jul-13 15:31:00

'I get the impression she doesn't let the truth get in the way of a good story'

Yes yes to this! The account of her siblings' 'hilarious' antics on her wedding day from HTBAW did not ring true at all for example.

GoshAnneGorilla Mon 01-Jul-13 15:35:48

I had the entire series of Corleone saved to watch and then my Sky box went on the blink, had to be reset and the memory was wiped clean angry

I've managed to get the series of RC, still stands up to repeated viewings. How a series about a bunch of criminals manages to be so poignant, I do not know.

Also, I think Donatella may be one of my favourite female TV characters ever. Ruthless without being two dimensional.

That you tube clip.... Was she coked up?

mignonette Mon 01-Jul-13 15:49:16

She certainly is rather overexcited at the start isn't she Sauce

Very embarrassing.

But I enjoy some of her stuff. When she's funny she's very funny and clever but find her hit and miss.

Snazzywaitingforsummer Mon 01-Jul-13 16:30:52

limitedperiodonly Totally agree with you about tv reviewing. It's a much harder job to do well than it looks (a bit like the way people tend to think that teaching, or stand-up comedy, are probably easy: after all you just chat away at the front, don't you?) and I appreciate people who do it well. Sam Wollaston at the Guardian makes me want to scream as someone who has had the good fortune to get that sort of job and who then does it terribly.

I don't read CM's tv reviews as not a Times subscriber but the bits quoted her sound worryingly like it in style. Her one saving grace might be that it isn't her main area of expertise. In that case the Times shouldn't get her to do it, but I imagine that a) they want to squeeze as much value as possible out of their 250K and b) they have made the mistake of thinking that someone who writes well about certain things can write well about anything.

mignonette Mon 01-Jul-13 16:34:54

When I used to read her I got a mental image of somebody with Emphysema doing their best to speak as fast as they can before their breath ran out. Her writing is the equivalent of that...All breathless and slightly panicked as though she thinks you'll turn the page before she's finished.

Southeastdweller Mon 01-Jul-13 16:39:42

I can’t be doing with her anymore, not since the blatant arse-licking last year of Lena Dunham: when people on Twitter asked her about the lack of representation of black people on Girls, C.M responded with “I literally couldn’t give a shit". Her writing is too ‘try-hard’ – I prefer Kathryn Flett or Viv Groskop, much less exhausting to read. I don’t bother reading anything C.M does now, despite being a Times subscriber, and I’ve unfollowed her on Twitter. Her image is so contrived it’s funny in an unintentional way: eg.,“look at me pulling funny faces to prove I’m cool and fun”. Yawn. I didn’t know about her ‘mentals’ comment, which I agree with MT upthread was probably a show of support to the equally charming Times colleague GiseleIndia Knight, who made a complete fool of herself last year with her questionable column on mental health.

LadyClariceCannockMonty Mon 01-Jul-13 16:40:04

I haven't read How to Be a Woman but find her Times writing very smug and pleased with itself although I only ever read her interviews/reviews regarding Benedict Cumberbatch

As for telly reviewing, I totally agree that it's culturally important and good people should be on it. Sam Guardian is irritating beyond belief and not nearly as good as he seems to think he is. The god of TV reviewing (and radio actually) is Nancy Banks-Smith and no one else is worthy. <<gavel>>

Clayhanger Mon 01-Jul-13 16:56:49

I like her. If younger women/teens read HTBAW then great. We can be idealistic but Germaine Greer or Simone de Beauvoir won't have a big audience among younger women. She makes important points about modern body tyranny too.
Her style isn't for everyone but she is a thousand times better than the incompetent Sam Wollaston at the Guardian when it comes to TV reviews.
It is actually hard to come up with zingers week after week (yes, I know she's well paid) so I admire her energy.
I don't get her Gaga obsession and would love to see her move on from pop culture a bit. Her pieces on libraries and the heaviness of poverty were brilliant. I think she should do more observational/social stuff and leave the slebs behind, but then I suppose Janice Turner occupies that role at The Times (hated JT's piece on comprehensives though).

mignonette Mon 01-Jul-13 17:04:58

I agree that De Beauvoir isn't popular culture but when I introduced her to a group of young students all of them read her, were engrossed and wanted to know more.

The problem is that we are getting a little laissez faire about what we maybe think young women will want to engage with.....

CM is just as collusive with body tyranny as anybody else and very judgemental and critical of particular female celebrities over others. If she thinks Gaga is a refreshing change from the tyranny of the female body as flesh for sale then she is fucking deluded. Gaga is as naked and sexually available in her videos as Rihanna. She is just less honest about it.

limitedperiodonly Mon 01-Jul-13 17:11:18

Sam Wollaston at the Guardian makes me want to scream as someone who has had the good fortune to get that sort of job and who then does it terribly.

Definitely, snazzy. I was reading Guardian and Independent online reviews of Game of Thrones and thinking: 'There's a bit more to TV reviewing than "This happened, and then that happened and then they all died"'

I don't need recap. I have Sky+.

I doubt those people get paid to do those reviews. I think they're mad fans who haven't a clue. But I do think the outlets should have a bit of quality control for the sake of their reputations.

hackmum Mon 01-Jul-13 17:13:54

I think she's a really gifted writer - no-one can turn a phrase like Caitlin. She's much more interesting to read than most Fleet Street columnists. I don't always agree with her, but I'm not sure whether that's relevant to the question of whether she's a good writer or not.

mignonette Mon 01-Jul-13 17:14:29

I never read TV reviews. I do not see the point of them when a straightforward description would be just as useful. Why would I trust the judgement of the likes of A A Gimp, CM, Victor Lewis Smith and that odious Grace Dent? What on earth qualifies them as arbiters of taste good or bad?

limitedperiodonly Mon 01-Jul-13 17:14:43

But the people who do get paid for it, such as Wollaston and Moran, for example, are in the wrong job.

cornyblend37 Mon 01-Jul-13 17:22:56

I couldn't get past the first half of' How To Be A Woman.'
I I expected to like it after people on here raved about it but I just didn't give a shit about what she thought about anything really.

HandMini Mon 01-Jul-13 17:37:59

OK, I was being facetious in saying the work experience should do the TV reviews. TV reviews are great with a good critical writer and i def enjoy TV shows more when i have read some reviews and given some food for thiught by someone whose literary / culturla knowledge is wider than mine. I would however rather hear "Opinion" writers writing a truly "opinion" piece and not shoehorning their views into a TV review, same goes for Giles Coren and his ramblings in his restaurant column. Write about the frickng restaurant and food and relevant related topics, not shit for 15 paras then passing refernece to the resto for 5 paras. If you want to write opinion pieces.

HandMini Mon 01-Jul-13 17:38:18

God, sorry for all the typos, I am not, as it would appear above, illiterate!

limitedperiodonly Mon 01-Jul-13 17:54:15

Oh, mignonetteI can get a description from the studio listings or from reviews from people who don't understand that a review isn't a recap.

But I love good TV reviews and film, radio, book and play reviews, for that matter.

It doesn't matter whether I know the work or not. It might inspire me to look it up.

I can agree or disagree, have my view challenged, or as Gosh said, just have something discussed that I might have missed because I either wasn't paying attention or didn't know enough about the subject.

There are good and bad reviewers. Mostly bad, these days, because people think if you haven't got anything nice to say, you shouldn't say anything, which is anathema to proper criticism.

I love Ally Ross and Nancy Banks Smith - I forgot about her. I mostly like AA Gill and Clive James.

I used to like Charlie Brooker, but not for a long time now. I think that by making TV programmes as well as commenting on them he's gone native.

Recently, people on here were saying Camilla Long had won Hatchet Job of the Year like it was a bad thing. The award is for reviewers who've made an accurate assessment of a bad work - in that case it was Rachel Cusk's extraordinarily self-obsessed memoir of her divorce.

It was not only a well-deserved review and award, it might have helped Cusk to shift a few more copies. People should have looked beyond the cheeky title of the award.

limitedperiodonly Mon 01-Jul-13 18:14:55

hand I agree. I like AA Gill's restaurant reviews now I've understood that out of 800 words 550 of them are devoted to general rambling and the rest devoted to whether I might like the restaurant.

What I like about him is that his view isn't to do with cost, but more to do with value for money. Value for money does not equal cheapness.

Somewhere that charges you squillions could be justified on the grounds of the ingredients, standards of cooking or service. Alternatively, somewhere could fail on all or some of those things but could be a nice place to go when you don't fancy cooking your own dinner that night.

I hate it when restaurant reviewers tell me what they ate and how much it cost. I don't care because I can read menus. I want to know whether it's the kind of place I'd want to go.

SofaCanary Mon 01-Jul-13 18:41:19

She's nowhere near as clever as she thinks she is.

Cherriesarelovely Mon 01-Jul-13 18:45:44

I think she is fabulous. Really enjoyed her books and started to get the Times just to read her and Melanie (? Can't remember her sir name) columns at the weekend.

frankie4 Mon 01-Jul-13 18:47:27

I love Caitlin Moran's articles. I subscribe to The Times iPad app and it is so terrible, taking forever to make its mind up whether to load or not. I recently decided to stop my subscription, but I would miss my dose of Caitlin Moran so am still with it for now.

Her article on families on benefits after the Philpott trial was especially good.

theoriginalandbestrookie Mon 01-Jul-13 19:01:55

I loved The White Queen review, summed the series up so perfectly, I was quietly chortling to myself when I read it. Honestly, you can't take the series seriously as it's so ridiculous, and quite sensibly CM hasn't.

However I struggled with How to Be a Woman. Some of it resonated, like the episode where she discovered that the bloke she fancies thinks she is fat, and that she should know this already. I thought her description of her bravado hiding despair was excellent.

But I did not like all the graphical masturbation and sex related stuff. It reminded me a bit of The Vagina Monologues, which seemed to run on the one trick pony that it was terribly modern to say the word vagina all the time.

I also felt that her efforts to describe how women should act were somewhat puerile. She was lucky or clever enough to marry a decent bloke at a youngish age and has a job that allows her to avoid many of the unpleasant realities of being a working mother.

Also it felt very much like a random thread of what would probably be very entertaining in their own right columns, rather than a full blown book with narrative drive to bring it all the way through.

But hey what do I know. If a few young women read it and get their life lessons from it rather than the Kashardians then I suppose it can only be a good thing.

theoriginalandbestrookie Mon 01-Jul-13 19:04:04

I like it when AA Gill goes on holiday, I find him so sniffy about most restaurants. Much better when they let the make up lady loose, or Kate Spicer who you can sense is ridiculously excited about having her restaurant meal paid for.

Still better than Giles Coren who seems to spend most of his time ascertaining the provenance of all of the restaurants meat for sustainability and general eco cred, rather than telling you very much at all about the food and if it's any good.

MarmaladeTwatkins Mon 01-Jul-13 19:57:45

Who remembers when Sali Hughes (from the stabtastic link upthread) came on and had a pop at us for being rude about IK?!

<halcyon days>

ElectricSoftParade Mon 01-Jul-13 20:00:38

I do remember and it was daft but so lovely to read.

If you can dish it out, you should be able to take it back. <mean>

EleanorFarjeon Mon 01-Jul-13 20:05:41

I think Caitlin Moran has become a parody of herself.

What was funny and fresh a few years ago now seems too try hard and formulaic to me.

Snazzywaitingforsummer Mon 01-Jul-13 20:19:42

Just to clarify, someone came on to post that people should not be publicly mean to someone who makes their living, at least in part, out of publicly being mean to people? confused

limitedperiodonly Mon 01-Jul-13 20:25:06

I remember. It was the first time I realised who Silly Hughes was. She knows about make up, doesn't she?

I went in Superdrug yesterday and was umming and ahhing over a 3 for 2 offer on Bourgois. It ends tomorrow, so if you're reading, Silly, and can advise...

QuinionsRainbow Mon 01-Jul-13 20:41:03

"She's a grown woman writing in the style of an over-excited teenager and I find her extremely annoying."

Even when she actually WAS an over-excited teenager her literary output was still extremely annoying.

Southeastdweller Mon 01-Jul-13 20:53:04

Yes, I remember. I recall I.K had a book coming out that month...

Also remember that Sali said Alastair Campbell misquoted I.K about her mental health column in his tweet which was picked up by the Huffingon Post. Whether Sali hadn't checked or was brazen enough to think none of us would check, I don't know, but I went off her after that.

Corygal Mon 01-Jul-13 20:54:05

I ache for her columns - it's the random apercus about life now that I like the most, plus the odd laff. She can write dialogue like a dream, wasted as a columnist.

Southeastdweller Mon 01-Jul-13 21:12:38

Just re-read my post and to clarify, Sali was wrong about the misquoting.

EarthtoMajorTom Mon 01-Jul-13 21:45:52

Giles Coren = prize wanker. If ever there was someone who'd be nowhere without his Dad, it's him. I almost feel sorry for his sister. On the other hand, I could probably say the same about her. At least CM didn't get to where she got today by having a famous (and genuinely funny) writer with loads of connections for a father.

Trills Mon 01-Jul-13 21:47:35

I enjoy Giles Coren's writing.

That's not to say there aren't other people without famous parents whose writing I might also enjoy, had they been given columns in national newspapers.

But I generally enjoy reading what he writes.

ProjectGainsborough Mon 01-Jul-13 21:49:06

I like her. I liked her book. I liked the MH article. And if she occasionally comes across as a bit try hard, aren't they all trying quite hard to occupy their 'character'?

Not a week goes by without AA Gill conspicuously hating something that we're all supposed to love (Oxford University, organic food, France, etc). It's always, always the opening of his column. Always.

ProjectGainsborough Mon 01-Jul-13 21:51:59

I don't think the Times gives someone a job just because their dad worked there. They give them a job because their dad worked there AND they're talented.

Trills Mon 01-Jul-13 21:54:46

It is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition. That's not to say it doesn't help though.

ProjectGainsborough Mon 01-Jul-13 21:59:08

Just realised I've made exactly the same point as you in different words Trills .

I do think he is talented, but I avoid his columns now as there's a certain smuggery that makes me want to throw things at his head.

Trills Tue 02-Jul-13 08:02:22

I was agreeing with you in different words, should have started it with I agree with Gainsborough smile

HandMini Tue 02-Jul-13 08:34:22

I don't think the Times gives someone a job just because their dad worked there. They give them a job because their dad worked there AND they're talented.. Yes, agree, it's just a shame that there are so many talented writers out there who don't get the same chances as media offspring to get established.

theaub Tue 02-Jul-13 10:03:42

I like her. She has/is a brand (like all journalists), and her style will not be to everyone's taste but she is a feminist writing from the heart of the establishment and we need many more of those. She did not get there through family/social connections which is impressive as most journalists got in that way. She also stays in touch with pop culture and is mouthy and is at the same time (gasp!) ... a mother and (gasp!) ...not fifteen any more. So? That makes her more important IMO. Why should she, or any of us, stop being interested in what we like because we are mothers or 'too old' or whatever? I'm glad she's around, calling out bullshit when she sees it and bringing feminist thinking to a new, younger audience.

SonOfAradia Tue 02-Jul-13 10:30:06

Love her to bits and would marry her tomorrow. The only problem is that the present MrsSon might not like it.

ouryve Tue 02-Jul-13 10:31:20

I can see the appeal. She's behind a paywall so I can't stumble upon her tripe accidentally.

ARealDame Tue 02-Jul-13 10:34:13

grin

mignonette Tue 02-Jul-13 10:36:29

Marmalade SH had a pop at me because I made a comment about 'go back to reviewing make up' and stop supporting your friend's (IK) rude and discriminating comments about the mentally ill and she called me sexist???? What exactly was sexist about my comment I do not know....

PoppyAmex Tue 02-Jul-13 10:44:28

I remember that mignonette; it made me laugh a lot!

I wonder if she considers her area of "expertise" (make-up) sexist?

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Jul-13 10:46:28

I remember the sexist remark grin It made me chuckle.

And the gasps of racism when someone lightly mocked the spelling of her name.

Methinks that someone has been shielded from too many real-world problems...

limitedperiodonly Tue 02-Jul-13 10:54:42

I just closed that bathroom link and I noticed there was no facility to leave comments.

Wise, very wise.

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Jul-13 11:06:53

You know why that is, don't you, limited?

Who ARE these lot ingratiated with, that no-one is allowed to slag them off, on the interwebs? I bet IK is sucking off Google.

LatinForTelly Tue 02-Jul-13 11:13:32

I like her writing. Her piece on library closures was one of the best pieces of writing I've ever read in a newspaper. Loved 'poor cardiganless Rihanna' too.

And I admire her for achieving what she has through sheer ability.

valiumredhead Tue 02-Jul-13 11:59:24

My mum always bangs on about her but I read an article she thought I would like and it was crap I didn't.

ProjectGainsborough Tue 02-Jul-13 14:00:17

More people should start their posts that way, Trills ...

Lottapianos Tue 02-Jul-13 14:52:12

Marmalade, thanks for the link to the smug-fest in CM's bathroom with SH, other people have been able to explain what I found so irritating about it when I watched it the first time!

I quite like SH sometimes and do look at her website now and then but the 'In The Bathroom with......' clips really are a load of guff, if quite satisfying in a nosey bugger sort of way. The one that really wound me up was Brix Smith-Start, who must have had several thousand pounds worth of face products in two huge bathroom cabinets, and said that she has Botox regularly, but went on and on about how fabulous she feels at 50 and how much she loves getting older hmm Obviously not that much, eh? I speak as a make-up lover and someone who does take good care of their skin but jesus, please be consistent about it! smile

SH, CM, IK etc really do behave like the school bullies sometimes i.e. 15 year olds not grown women who are all approaching 40.

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Jul-13 15:09:41

Her bathroom isn't as wacky as one would have hoped, to be honest.

I was at least hoping for an ironic crinoline-frocked lady bog-roll cover. <sadface>

Thurlow Tue 02-Jul-13 15:19:17

Ah, Giles Coren can be very funny at times, I don't mind him at all. Though I seem to like him less the more I see/read of Esther Walker.

limitedperiodonly Tue 02-Jul-13 16:14:04

Oh yeah, the talented Mrs Coren. It won't be long before we see their baby's fingerpaintings in the Times magazine.

LadyClariceCannockMonty Tue 02-Jul-13 16:52:25

I know that Giles Coren is by any normal measure a wanker.

But I'd do him until he cried.

I can't help it.

HandMini Tue 02-Jul-13 17:09:36

Aghghghgh, LadyClarice you have GOT to be kidding, he's so gross and smug, I could not bring myself to touch him with gloves on.

HandMini Tue 02-Jul-13 17:10:18

And YY to his rolling out of family guff now he has kids....

Thurlow Tue 02-Jul-13 17:16:41

LadyClarice, I would too blush I used to have all the Supersizers kept on the +player. The 70s one, with the natty 'tache, almost did for me.

valiumredhead Tue 02-Jul-13 17:37:35

I would do him too. One of the super Sizer episodes was filmed in our friend's angry house-I only found out well after the eventangry

valiumredhead Tue 02-Jul-13 17:38:04

Ooooo random cross face sorry!

LadyClariceCannockMonty Tue 02-Jul-13 17:51:46

Sorry HandMini, as I said, I can't help it. I don't do guilt, but if I did he would be my guilty crush along with all the others !

Thurlow, the Restoration one with the breeches and flouncy lacy cuffs made me go all funny in my tummy. blush

Darkesteyes Tue 02-Jul-13 17:56:04

Giles Coren is a sexist hypocrite. In last months Red there was an article by 4 writers about how much they loved their wives.
Giles started off his section about his wife by basically listing her body parts .
And yet in last months Easy Living he wrote an article about how he was sick of the objectification of men. hmm confused

Lottapianos Tue 02-Jul-13 18:00:56

I would do him too, even if he is a massive tosser. I would like to be mates with his sister too.

HandMini Tue 02-Jul-13 18:13:48

Oh my lord. Mind bleach. I could never have seen him as an object of lust. I read the Easy Living piece and boked too. He's such a hypocrite.

PoppyAmex Tue 02-Jul-13 18:48:36

He looks greasy

EarthtoMajorTom Tue 02-Jul-13 22:36:31

yuck. an arse at university, and still an arse.

Southeastdweller Tue 02-Jul-13 22:45:26

Thanks MT for that link to that illuminating bathroom chat with C.M and S.H. Could only manage five minutes.

'Eminent psychologist' indeed grin

Cutitup Tue 02-Jul-13 23:01:00

I liked most of the columnists mentioned in this thread until I read them on Twitter. Now I don't. It put me off reading their columns. Specially India Knight with her 'cunt-this' and her 'cunt-that'. I just think they come across as a self-involved group of twats and its damaging their careers as journalists.

limitedperiodonly Tue 02-Jul-13 23:34:27

Misplaced confidence in his attractiveness; or possibly not, judging by the number of women here who'd do him.

He posed with his shirt off for a trite 'I love my new baby' piece on the front of the Times magazine a while ago. It was an utterly bizarre thing for a flabby bloke to do and speaks volumes about his delusions or eyesight.

Though it didn't turn my stomach, he's not going to give David Gandy any sleepless nights.

Darkesteyes Tue 02-Jul-13 23:49:40

An arse at university...ooh please spill. <smiles hopefully>

reelingintheyears Tue 02-Jul-13 23:52:08

I like Caitlin Moran.

mignonette Wed 03-Jul-13 06:08:53

He is fat isn't he? I saw him waddling around North London a few weeks ago and he is a bit of a chubster isn't he? Not a problem until you read his columns denigrating the overweight and recommending social cleansing of. He is despicably vile about them. A little bit of projection eh Gilesy?

And his wife could do with losing a bit too both pre and post gestation. He is always wittering on about hotness = slenderness yet it has all gone a bit awry for them hasn't it? Again, practice what you preach mate.

TobyLerone Wed 03-Jul-13 06:14:45

I really like her.

If I didn't, I wouldn't read her stuff. It's not rocket science. I'm sure there are several articles in the Times which are written by other journalists.

mignonette Wed 03-Jul-13 06:31:38

I do not read her stuff any more. But we cannot escape the blanket coverage of her in The Times especially when she is on the cover of the supplements, has an op ed column, a three page spread, TV reviews and has books constantly promoted by The Times who are clearly putting her through the mangle to extract their pound of flesh.

TobyLerone Wed 03-Jul-13 06:34:53

You still don't have to read it, though! Just turn the page. Or if even the fact that she's in it at all bothers you that much, buy The Daily Mail a different paper instead.

Badvoc Wed 03-Jul-13 06:41:35

I used to like CM.
Then she was on here for a web chat and was just juvenile and the fawning...god, it was awful. She also used a vile word to describe disabled people in her book (twice) and her excuse was vapid and pathetic. I have zero tolerance for that shit.
I think her appeal will fade pretty soon. She is everywhere ATM.
I loved the supersizer programmes, but for sue Perkins not GC.

Badvoc Wed 03-Jul-13 06:44:45

....but, yes. Her article on library closures was very good.
And as for nepotism...twas ever thus.

mignonette Wed 03-Jul-13 06:45:12

I do turn the page FGS. But as I said. Still IYF. I buy The Guardian, The Times and The Observer (For Food Monthly especially and she was bloody well in that too!).........

SuiGeneris Wed 03-Jul-13 06:55:01

YANBU. Have been wondering that for a while myself. I cannot stand the woman or her articles. They all seem to be a variation on "you cannot possibly understand the world unless you have had the same life as me", with lots of inverted snobbery. I do wish they would get someone with something interesting to say. To see her columns next to Melanie Reid's always makes me cringe.

mignonette Wed 03-Jul-13 06:56:53

Sui Yes, yes, yes. Perfectly put. MR may well be a fan of hers but the contrast to the readers is a painful one.

NutcrackerFairy Wed 03-Jul-13 07:55:07

Oh yes, the oh so witty Giles, his hot wife Esther and adorable baby.

I personally would like to see a lot less of the lot of them.

Now they are parents and have a baby they have an opinion on everything family related, albeit in their Hampstead/Islington/Notting Hill enclave.

Smug, smug, smug.

So GM got the writing gig basically through family connections... now we have to suffer reading his wife's guff on her cooking and selecting a buggy for baby.

Truly will be baby's brilliance at finger painting next hmm

GrimmaTheNome Wed 03-Jul-13 08:08:37

Mostly I like Caitlin Moran and not just because it was a relief to hear that someone else can only run at a fast walking pace. I usually only read her bit in the Saturday times mag - rarely the TV review because I don't watch much TV and sat. is the only day we get an actual paper.

GC is sometimes amusing, sometimes annoying. Part of his problem is that he can never be his dad who was in another class of humour altogether.

Trills Wed 03-Jul-13 08:19:49

Saying that a woman who has just had a baby could do with losing a bit? hmm

Is that what we've sunk to mignonette?

HandMini Wed 03-Jul-13 08:29:39

Cutitup makes an excellent point about Twitter.

I started following lots of writers because I (on the whole) liked their books or columns, but seeing their petty vengeful backbiting and in-jokes on Twitter has put me right off.

The worst thing of all is how stupid their tweets are, often along the lines of "you're an ugly twat" as opposed to any reasoned argument. Fair enough, they're not getting paid for their tweets, but come on people - it's ALL public! We are judging you on this.

limitedperiodonly Wed 03-Jul-13 08:32:49

I have grudging admiration for the amount of mileage Giles and Mrs Giles have had out of him giving up drinking.

He seems to have found an alternative calorie source so perhaps they can write about that soon.

quesadilla Wed 03-Jul-13 08:55:02

I like her underlying outlook on life and am glad she exists but I do find her writing style very grating: like a media village Marmalade Atkins. There's something very irritating about it.

Pagwatch Wed 03-Jul-13 09:03:50

I like her. But tbh I just tend to read the paper and avoid anyone that annoys me.
I don't really get the hand wringy 'but why do you like x when I don't?' stuff.
If someone is writing offensive or upsetting stuff I get talking about that . But 'I don't like this' always strikes me as odd.
Is 'we don't all like the same stuff' a radical idea.

I don't like asparagus or Next.

MissAnnersley Wed 03-Jul-13 09:36:00

<wrings hands>

I love asparagus and have a gift card for next.

It's ruined for me now pagwatch.

mignonette Wed 03-Jul-13 09:43:58

Nope Trills she could've done with losing a bit before pregnancy actually. Remember the mileage GC/wife get out of being a 'hot couple' in a land of fat people and making very cruel comments about them...

hackmum Wed 03-Jul-13 09:44:00

limitedperiodonly: "I have grudging admiration for the amount of mileage Giles and Mrs Giles have had out of him giving up drinking."

Yes - there are some writers who manage to make a living out of endlessly recycling the same story. There was a time when you could barely open a newspaper without reading an article by Joan Smith about why she preferred to remain childless. Then there's Liz Jones and her "woe is me" schtick. And Shona Sibary, who has written endless variations on the theme of her own inadequacies...

Some of us have to earn our money by finding and researching new stories every time. Not that I'm bitter or anything.

mignonette Wed 03-Jul-13 09:47:49

You go HackMum....There are plenty of us who avidly seek out the fresh and new in the papers and turn over fast when they see the same old guff again....

No grudging admiration though. Just annoyance that no matter what newspaper/magazine one buys, there they are again. Very hard to avoid.

limitedperiodonly Wed 03-Jul-13 09:55:41

No grudging admiration though. Just annoyance that no matter what newspaper/magazine one buys, there they are again

It's inspired purely by envy at their bank balance and indolence mignonette

Though chasing stories rather than cutting and pasting definitely keeps me trim. Giles should try it.

limitedperiodonly Wed 03-Jul-13 10:08:05

hackmum I first noticed it years ago when someone called Tiffany Daneff used to write about her children in the Telegraph. A very un-Telegraph name, Tiffany. Perhaps she was part of an outreach scheme.

Someone called Raffaela Barker used to write in the Standard about going to Sloaney parties. We used to ring in regularly inviting her to ours in Walthamstow but she never came sad

Most (but not all) of them die off eventually. Especially those at the Mail who wring every last bit of humiliation from someone, ruin them as a credible journalist then cast them aside for the next sucker.

Be warned Shona. One day your children will grow up, get a restraining order and you'll have nothing to write about.

mignonette Wed 03-Jul-13 10:11:26

Yes it is called the Myerson Effect

mignonette Wed 03-Jul-13 10:12:50

[limited] GC definitely on the C+P diet.

Farewelltoarms Wed 03-Jul-13 10:33:33

I think CM is like one of those rappers who releases a brilliant album about life on the streets, and it's all real and raw. Then their second album is all about how their crap driver bought them some shite coke and how terrible that made them feel.
She was such a brilliant antidote to all that London centric nepotism and a useful corrective to the idea that poor people are lazy. But now she's become a N London gamekeeper. She was boasting to a fawning Time OUt journalist about how all the squares were getting narked at her and Tim Minchin ruining a pub quiz by singing Abba so loudly and I thought, well, yes, you do sound pretty irritating.

Farewelltoarms Wed 03-Jul-13 10:34:56

Oh and Giles Coren should not write articles about how to be a parent when he only had one six-month-old saying things like 'I'll tell her not to go to university, I'd be where I am without having been'. Well, you know, most of us wouldn't and it's breathtaking delusion not to recognise this in others.

MarmaladeTwatkins Wed 03-Jul-13 10:43:30

Oh hark at TOBYLERONE being all SENSIBLE and SHIT.

Look hun, if we all just ignored shit that shitted us off, AIBU would shrink tenfold in about an hour. Mmmmm'kay?

As you were you bitches

MarmaladeTwatkins Wed 03-Jul-13 10:47:30

Giles Coren is a foodie little twerp. He looks like Alex James's pygmy brother.

TobyLerone Wed 03-Jul-13 10:51:47

Shut up Marmers, yeah, before I cuntpunt you into next week.

limitedperiodonly Wed 03-Jul-13 10:54:05

I heard he eats Alex James's cheese.

mrsshackleton Wed 03-Jul-13 10:57:36

I don't like The Times or Sunday Times at all. They rely far too heavily on a tiny coterie of star writers, who inevitably come across as smug and overprivileged because we're supposed to find their views on everything hilarious and gospel.

Telegraph was going that way with Bryony Gordon, while she's on mat leave we're having a blessed break, though she still continues to file dispatches along the lines of "breastfeeding is hard" and "having a baby is really tiring."

Mail, as mentioned, goes the other way by exploiting gullible writers to spill guts whom we're expected to loathe. Bah.

TobyLerone Wed 03-Jul-13 11:00:11

I'd eat Alex James' cheese.

limitedperiodonly Wed 03-Jul-13 11:06:05

Bless Bryony Gordon. The delicate flower who was taken on by the Mirror's 3am column and was shocked that it wasn't so much about going to parties, as the hard work of approaching total strangers at them and getting stories, often in return for gratuitous abuse.

MarmaladeTwatkins Wed 03-Jul-13 11:17:34

I bet you fucking would, Lerone. You pretentious arse.

Alex James's Cheese Blankets.

Made for wankers who do Twitter, live in North London and call people cunts whilst wearing eyeliner.

TobyLerone Wed 03-Jul-13 11:18:53

I pretty much am that wanker. I shall buy one forthwith.

smoothieooo Wed 03-Jul-13 11:27:18

Caitlin Moran's columns was one of the reasons why I took out a Times subscription for my iPad. So there.

Giles C has started to grate on me a bit though...

mignonette Wed 03-Jul-13 11:30:46

Alex James? The man who calls himself a farmer then wrote in his column about how he'd overslept until noon.....yes, because Farmers often oversleep don't they. I mean, let the cow's udders explode because you are sleeping off too much cheese.............

And that disgustingly greasy hair flopping all over the food. Cheese n hair sandwiches anyone? Thought not.

smoothieooo Wed 03-Jul-13 11:33:59

Alex James chatted me up at a party a few 20 years ago. Just think, I could be a cheese-eating 'farmer's' wife in the Cotswolds...

limitedperiodonly Wed 03-Jul-13 11:36:32

Alex James is a farmer in the same way that Pearl Lowe and Danny Goffey are everyday countryfolk

Snoopingforsoup Wed 03-Jul-13 11:43:18

She's brilliant.

Just because she's not a benign pearl clutcher in a nice Hobbs cardie, doesn't mean she's not worthy of The Times.

She's lived a life. One that wasn't privileged and I love her honesty. I think she makes The Times.

mignonette Wed 03-Jul-13 11:43:37

And Pearl Lowe is a 'designer'....She sells 'dyed net curtains' apparently and cheap shit clothes for Peacocks. Hell I dye stuff in my washing machine all the time. And accidentally too! Who knows where I'd be in design stratosphere if I actually tried to do it deliberately?

MarmaladeTwatkins Wed 03-Jul-13 11:49:20

Oooh I must defend Pearl Lowe's Peacocks range (not that they do it anymore, sadly) The tea dresses were cut to proper patterns from old dresses, the zips were in the sides of the frocks instead of down the back, like most cheapola shite dresses and the fabrics were good and heavy.

The Alex James Cheese Thread remains one of my favourite threads ever. grin

limitedperiodonly Wed 03-Jul-13 11:51:39

Pearl Lowe is one of those people who looks like they could do with a wash. So is Caitlin Moran.

I was quite surprised to see in Twatter's link that she had a bathroom. I wonder if it gets much use?

MarmaladeTwatkins Wed 03-Jul-13 11:56:51

I do love Pearl Lowe's styles. Her house looks gawjuss envy But I think she's probably a bit of a nobber.

CM's bathroom gets LOADS of use.

But for talking to her wankah mates about zany make-up and big vaginas, rather than showering. I reckon.

DolomitesDonkey Wed 03-Jul-13 12:14:21

She should be the Patron Saint of "I'm not middle class" Mumsnet.

I bet she wears Converse and one of those patterned Boden macs.

mrsshackleton Wed 03-Jul-13 12:16:26

smoothieooo He chatted me up too!

I suspect quite a few mnetters have a similar boast grin

Snoopingforsoup Wed 03-Jul-13 12:33:02

Alex James will have chatted up 3/4 of Mumsnet.

Snoopingforsoup Wed 03-Jul-13 12:38:10

Definitely no sisterhood where there's success!

Nasty!

cocolepew Wed 03-Jul-13 12:48:28

I don't understand this sisterhood nonsense. You don't have to like someone just because of their gender.
I work with a woman who is an utter cunt, a nasty, vindictive, pathological liar. Should I give her a by ball because she is a woman? confused.

ARealDame Wed 03-Jul-13 12:58:34

Its irrelevant to me, Caitlin Moran's background (or Giles Coran for that matter) in terms of their writing. Nor what she wears (pearl clutcher in a Hobbs cardie or DMs).

However, when a writer has an anti-establishment "persona" in a paper like The Times, it would be nice if it was coherent, thoughtful or humerous, or even true. A writer always has to be honest, even if people don't like it, even if they get it "wrong" sometimes. Otherwise it just doesn't work IMO. I remember Julie Burchill fulfilled that role pretty well for example.

I would say most good writers do it naturally to some degree, because they are thinkers. E.g. Giles Coran writing on the Shard last week was more anti-establishment than anything CM has recently written, including her hard-to-believe boasting about getting drunk at festivals on the cheapest, sick-making spirits she could buy, as a matter of principle.

Anyway, I will give articles I don't like a miss as people suggest, as I usually do. I think why I got esp. annoyed this time, is because I found the screaming headlines about Ingrid Bergman looking like Tits on a Turnip actually totally offensive. I probably should just have written to the Times Editor. And I will next time ... Have enjoyed the discussion though.

LadyHarrietdeSpook Wed 03-Jul-13 13:04:45

Are you Sarah Vine OP? or the Plankton?

Lottapianos Wed 03-Jul-13 13:14:38

'...including her hard-to-believe boasting about getting drunk at festivals on the cheapest, sick-making spirits she could buy, as a matter of principle'

A lot of her stuff is hard-to-believe I find. And the non-stop talk about drinking - I think Oliver Reed probably talked less about booze than she does! It reminds me a bit of being 18 or 19 and thinking that getting arseholed at every opportunity made me really cool, edgy and fun, rather than just pissed and messy and tedious.

LaGuardia Wed 03-Jul-13 13:24:12

YANBU. I still buy The Times despite her. She can barely pen a column without referencing her menstrual cycle/last bout of cystitis/falling down drunk. I imagine the editor finds it all wildly amusing.

Lottapianos Wed 03-Jul-13 13:34:36

I read that she's writing a new sitcom for Channel 4 with her sister. It's based on their experience of growing up in Wolverhampton. I will definitely watch it but have a feeling it may well be the cringiest thing evah!

Lottapianos Wed 03-Jul-13 13:35:07

I read that she's writing a new sitcom for Channel 4 with her sister. It's based on their experience of growing up in Wolverhampton. I will definitely watch it but have a feeling it may well be the cringiest thing evah!

MarmaladeTwatkins Wed 03-Jul-13 13:41:53

Meh.

CM, IK and that bunch are the least unsisterly crew on the internets.

Snoopingforsoup Wed 03-Jul-13 13:49:43

I just think it's a shame, whether you like her work or not, that posters here resort to bitching about how they think she doesn't use her bathroom because she's wearing DM's.

She grew up in a council house, no money, but pretty much educated herself and she has a great job that she's paid handsomely for.

There's plenty to be bitchy about when you think about how well she's done without the Oxbridge grooming. I suspect that is what bothers the bitches amongst you here. Isn't it about time we celebrated success? Girl's done well. That's the sisterhood I meant, one that should exist but really doesn't.

I love that The Times embraced her as a young kid and that she's still with them. Plenty bought her book too, so there are plenty who love her.

Whichever bitter journo started this thread, get back to your dull, conventional crap. You're the type I skip over.

MarmaladeTwatkins Wed 03-Jul-13 13:51:02

Ah well.

Her sister was in my year at school, so if it ain't accurate, I'll let you all know grin

Lottapianos Wed 03-Jul-13 13:53:46

No doubt you will Marmalade grin

Are you able to confirm that CM's childhood was as described, or did you not know them that well? Lots of aspersions being cast on this thread!

RiffyWammal Wed 03-Jul-13 14:03:37

I love her. She was the reason I bought a Times subscription too. I watched that 'in the bathroom' video and quite enjoyed it - yes I would probably find CM quite tiring in real life as she seems like she'd never shut up, but I think she would be kind and funny. Unlike the odious India Knight.

I used to enjoy Zoe Heller's column aaages ago - does anyone remember it? It was in one of the weekend supplements, I think. And what was the name of that other dark-haired woman who used to do a lot of interviews of celebs? Gah! She looked a bit like Sarah Brightman?

limitedperiodonly Wed 03-Jul-13 14:06:47

I don't think she doesn't wash because she wears DMs. I think that because she looks grubby. I agree, though, it's by-the-by. But it's an observation, which is a journalist's stock in trade.

My objection to her writing and pronouncements is because I find them contrived and overly mannered. Is that more acceptable?

I grew up in a council house too. I was educated at state schools. Neither is a badge of shame or glory.

I agree that most people in professions do not come from privileged backgrounds. I didn't. There should be more of us.

But it doesn't mean I have to praise people I don't rate who didn't go to Oxbridge or share my genital arrangement any more than I have to think Boris Johnson is a genius for quoting memorised lines from fairy stories.

I didn't start this thread but skip away.

MarmaladeTwatkins Wed 03-Jul-13 14:16:18

Twas difficult to tell, Lottapianos.

Her younger sister came into our school in about the 3rd or 4th year. She was a really nice girl, very cool, a bit like her sister in that she was quite unconventional. But she was nice. She hung around on the peripheries of our group but I didn't know her well.

I don't think they lived in a council house at that time, but that's not to say that they didn't earlier in life. They definitely weren't privileged, though. CM has definitely worked her way up through talent, AFAIK.

Snoopingforsoup Wed 03-Jul-13 14:19:05

No, you don't have to like her. I get that, but there's some mindless nasty claptrap above.

I admire her success and yes, there should be more like her.

I actually find her columns just Caitlin. I didn't like her musical opinions back in the day, but the fact she's still going pleases me. I read her and laugh or wince. Ditto Coren and Melanie Reid makes me punch the air with every success.

It's weekend reading. She's not running the country, she's not causing any harm. She doesn't deserve some of those comments. If you'd seen her in her music journo days you'd have clearly wanted to dip her in bleach if you think she looks grubby now...I only pray you look fookin' magnificent yourself.

Nasty, nasty, nasty world you journo's inhabit!

Lottapianos Wed 03-Jul-13 14:19:06

'And what was the name of that other dark-haired woman who used to do a lot of interviews of celebs? Gah! She looked a bit like Sarah Brightman?'

Chrissy Iley?

limitedperiodonly Wed 03-Jul-13 14:20:03

I liked Zoe Heller's Telegraph column directly after 9/11 riffly.

I thought it was outstanding letter about life in NYC, and it wasn't just me because it won awards.

It also pissed off Richard Littlejohn who sniped about someone 'who writes about waxing minges' when Heller beat him to one of those prizes. Bitter, much?

Littlejohn is someone from an Essex working class, straight-from-school background like mine.

Should I admire him as someone who's done much better than I have in monetary terms and prolificness, or should I call him as a pernicious twat who writes about the England he used to know from the millionaire comfort of a gated community in Florida and an addiction to re-runs of The Sweeney and Only Fools And Horses?

It's so hard to know what to think. Thank goodness for media commentators who tell us.

MarmaladeTwatkins Wed 03-Jul-13 14:22:01

"I only pray you look fookin' magnificent yourself."

I do.

<grave nod>

Snoopingforsoup Wed 03-Jul-13 14:24:18

You really are dyed in the wool Fleet Street hey limited

You don't have to be a media commentator to know mindless jealousy when you read it.

Boo hissss.

Snoopingforsoup Wed 03-Jul-13 14:25:14

Hurrah for you Twatkins.

I hope you earn as much as Caitlin too. Winner!

MarmaladeTwatkins Wed 03-Jul-13 14:26:35

I earn more.

<adjusts crown>

Snoopingforsoup Wed 03-Jul-13 14:32:44

bravo Twatkins

I hope I am a regular reader of your work too.

Other than here of course!

limitedperiodonly Wed 03-Jul-13 14:34:30

I do look rather magnificent, now you mention it.

lottapianos You named that tune in one with Chrissy Iley. Wrote with outrage about her horrid little dog being rejected as the horrid little dog in a Lloyd Webber production. I don't think even Sarah Brightman ever scraped those levels of lunacy.

Of course it might have been the kind of hilarious in-joke the Sunday Times magazine is keen on, that the vast majority of us plebs don't get. Or she might be a bit strange.

I don't think Sarah Brightman is a lunatic btw. I think it's the perils of being a woman with a commitment to her art who's divorced from a rich, eccentric and differently-talented man that people want to keep in with.

CambridgeBlue Wed 03-Jul-13 14:44:16

I find her a bit try-hard - all the gurning (seriously, why?!) and banging on about drinking and smoking and eyeliner and 'hey I'm so cool, I talk about vaginas' gets a bit tedious.

But if you can get past all that I think she's very astute. I guess she could be described as a bit feminist-lite but compared to many of the pointless Kardashian-esque role models around for young girls today I think she's OK.

She does herself a dis-service with her manner imo (the description of her as the school show off is spot on) but I guess it's helped her build and maintain a high profile so she's not going to stop now is she?

limitedperiodonly Wed 03-Jul-13 14:47:49

<knocks your crown off, Twatkins>

I take your point about being a regular reader snooping.

The beauty of writing op-ed pieces is being able to conjure them up from the contents of your own head in short order rather than doing the slog of door-stepping and research. Which is like, proper journalism.

Sometimes you don't have to go to the trouble of thinking of things for yourself. Features editors ring you because they know you've had breast implants/wear fur/took drugs and are generally ker-razey.

I learned that a long while ago. It frees up so much more time than when I had to put in any leg-work.

Southeastdweller Wed 03-Jul-13 15:44:45

I like Esther Walker (aka Mrs Coren). I read her book recently and though her attempts to subvert the 'North London yummy mummy' stereotype she may or not herself be now came across as often forced, it was generally an enjoyable read. But I was a bit iffy when I read her recent Standard feature about testing expensive buggy's and pram's, though I'm more annoyed with the editor who thinks that her readership has a typically huge disposable income.

Southeastdweller Wed 03-Jul-13 15:49:50

And I agree with Cutitup and Handmini about Twitter. Some of the 'Twiteratti' clearly spend a lot of time on there so invariably you get a good sense of who they are based on what they tweet to their followers and what they reply about. As we saw last year with C.M, I.K and Grace Dent, sometimes they come across in a not-so-nice <cough> way.

Lottapianos Wed 03-Jul-13 15:52:22

'Wrote with outrage about her horrid little dog being rejected as the horrid little dog in a Lloyd Webber production' grin Such gruelling lives these columnists lead, eh? Truly heartbreaking stuff wink

Someone upthread mentioned the MN webchat with CM. How on earth could I have forgotten!!! The fawning was indeed both shameless and stomach-churning. I thought CM came across as totally charmless and massively irritating. There wasn't even a hint of a thank you for the MNers who had bothered to message her questions and heap tons of undeserved praise on her. To use a favourite MN word, she acted very 'entitled' wink

Lottapianos Wed 03-Jul-13 15:53:58

I absolutely loved Grace Dent (and still really enjoy her writing) until I heard that she threatened to get some poor bloke fired because he made some admittedly very rude comments about her appearance.

I steer clear of Twitter myself but apparently CM never responds to mere mortals on there, only celebrities hmm

RiffyWammal Wed 03-Jul-13 15:54:53

Yes it was Chrissy Iley I was thinking of thankyou Lottapianos smile

ARealDame Wed 03-Jul-13 19:22:39

*I grew up in a council house too. I was educated at state schools. Neither is a badge of shame or glory.

I agree that most people in professions do not come from privileged backgrounds. I didn't. There should be more of us.

But it doesn't mean I have to praise people I don't rate who didn't go to Oxbridge or share my genital arrangement any more than I have to think Boris Johnson is a genius for quoting memorised lines from fairy stories*

All of this post is truly brilliant. Do I sound like CM? Irony.

ARealDame Wed 03-Jul-13 19:31:27

p.s. forgot to clarify it was limitedperiod's contribution that was so good. I also grew up in a council house, I mean so what, it doesn't make me a heroine if my writing and/or integrity is in question.

Whichever bitter journo started this thread, get back to your dull, conventional crap. You're the type I skip over* How I laughed at this. A bitter journo?! grin. Maybe I'm Giles Coran grin!

Who is Sarah Vine, as OP I've been accused of being her? I will check. Maybe its a compliment confused.

ARealDame Wed 03-Jul-13 19:36:10

Sorry, third postwine.

Sarah Vine is Michael Gove's wife. Surely shum misshtake Ed?

Well, you learn something new every day <sighs>.

scottishmummy Wed 03-Jul-13 19:37:22

I think she's funnier than any up their own backside Commentator/academic
The types who drone on about paradigms and waves but wouldn't know funny if it stoated em
Caitlin is a funny top bird

HandMini Wed 03-Jul-13 19:46:42

* if it stoated em* - arf, classic SM

limitedthetactless Wed 03-Jul-13 19:52:04

Sarah Vine writes about make up.

What interesting conversations she must have when she and her husband get home at night

Snoopingforsoup Wed 03-Jul-13 20:55:43

No deadlines today ARealDame?

Just wondering....

Southeastdweller Wed 03-Jul-13 21:20:58

You seem heavily invested in this thread snooping. Why's that?

Darkesteyes Thu 04-Jul-13 01:19:28

Lottapianos you should have seen the fawning on the Richard Bacon chat. He commented that his life hadnt changed that much since the baby arrived and that he often goes out and leaves his patient wife at home with baby.
If that had been a non famous bloke posting the same thing on the Relationships board he would have been verbally roasted on a spit.
Also gives a real insight into why the sleb mags sell so well and who is buying them.

Trills Thu 04-Jul-13 08:11:11
Snoopingforsoup Thu 04-Jul-13 14:41:30

southeastdweller
I get a bit suspicious when people start a bashing thread on here....
And maybe I'm just a bit fecked off with women being utter cunts to each other with hindsight.

Liz Jones I can understand the scorn. Caitlin Moran, I really can't.

MarmaladeTwatkins Thu 04-Jul-13 14:59:22

I said this when the IK backlash started on here after her monumental balls-up on MH... WHY are we, as women, expected to never judge or be critical of other women?! It's really patronising, actually. I don't believe it granting merit just because someone else happens to have a fanny. I find it a very odd concept. A cunt's a cunt, isn't it, regardless of gender? Where do you draw the line on not being able to criticise other women? Myra Hindley? Thatcher? What is the accepted threshold of distaste at which we are allowed to be critical of our own gender?

Snoopingforsoup Thu 04-Jul-13 19:31:47

Saying women look grubby is plain bitchy. She's not exactly a piss-sodden bus stop dweller is she?
That's not constructive - it's being a bitch for the sake of it.

Has no-one any common decency anymore?

There are plenty of grubby people commenting here, and to think they're raising children! Good luck with the charmers you're doubtless raising!

limitedperiodonly Thu 04-Jul-13 20:16:58

I see regarding Caitlin Moran as grubby as observational, in the same way that some of us might note the tragic irritants that are piss-sodden bus stop dwellers.

Being descriptive is FABULOUS!!! isn't it? And more so if we get CASH MONEY!!!! for it.

MarmaladeTwatkins Thu 04-Jul-13 20:17:44

"There are plenty of grubby people commenting here, and to think they're raising children! Good luck with the charmers you're doubtless raising!"

I just showed this to my DS and he said to tell you to go and boil your face.

Snazzywaitingforsummer Thu 04-Jul-13 20:41:27

Snooping Welcome to the internet. It has many downsides but some of its benefits are that more or less anyone who has uncensored access to it can share their opinions on stuff. 'Stuff' might include journalists. Since they themselves get this privilege all the time, in widely distributed media and for monetary rewards, it doesn't seem like a terribly unfair exchange to me.

Southeastdweller Thu 04-Jul-13 20:58:28

Be careful MT. You'll have Justine on here again moderating if you go too far. I bet there's been a certain amount of handwringing at MNHQ about some comments on here.

Snoopingforsoup Thu 04-Jul-13 21:24:59

Do you ever get sick of yourselves?

You have to ask your hubby for a response?

Lightweight!

Pagwatch Thu 04-Jul-13 21:46:52

My DS said wnkerwankerwankerwanker.
He isn't refined enough for 'boil yer face'

MarmaladeTwatkins Thu 04-Jul-13 22:10:42

Who asked their "hubby" <twitch> anything? confused

LOL at "welcome to the internet" grin

cocolepew Thu 04-Jul-13 22:17:30

My children are total charmers, it's just me who's a bitch.

ouryve Thu 04-Jul-13 22:20:12

I think I like your DSs, Marmalade and Pagwatch. So sweet of snooping to take cheap shots at people's children.

Pagwatch Thu 04-Jul-13 22:22:51

I missed 'welcome to the Internet ' grin

Arf.

Darkesteyes Thu 04-Jul-13 22:33:00

I like Caitlin Moran. I read HTBAW last year. Her observations on carers and how food is often their drug of choice because its cheaper than other substances was very insightful.

Southeastdweller Thu 04-Jul-13 22:33:51

flowers Snazzy

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