The daughter I knew is dead - what a thing say!

(281 Posts)
Animation Sat 22-Jun-13 14:39:59

Can't help but think that the mother's words and attitude to her daughter, and apparently they don't speak, could be as damaging as Jeremy Forrest's behaviour towards her.
Am I unreasonable in thinking this??

I thought the same thing animation, I also think that the mother obviously didn't knopw her daughter at all anyway. It isn't as if she was taken against her will.

StuffezLaYoni Sat 22-Jun-13 14:41:13

I agree, don't know what she was thinking saying that. If they're estranged already, how's that going to help matters?

5madthings Sat 22-Jun-13 14:44:10

I think she was trying to express how she feels and the damage this man has done.

I also dont think picking at the actions of her mum, her or her family is going to help this girl. Its all a horrible situation.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sat 22-Jun-13 14:47:53

The context of her is completely different from what you are implying.

I can't do links on here, but her statement is on the Torygraph website

burberryqueen Sat 22-Jun-13 14:47:57

it is an incredibly hurtful thing to say - perhaps their relationship was not good in the first place, who knows, bringing up teenagers is a bloody minefield.

Littleturkish Sat 22-Jun-13 14:48:02

Missed this- was this the evidence she gave in court?

Just awful. Poor girl.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sat 22-Jun-13 14:48:27

That was meant to read: the context of what she said...

LittlePeaPod Sat 22-Jun-13 14:51:17

What was the whole statement so we can comment when we understand the context... Without it then yes YABVU to not allow us to see whole context of statement...

NoobyNoob Sat 22-Jun-13 14:51:59

Lets not forget that this girl was also more than capable of calling to let her family know where she was - that she was even alive.

The daughter also blames her mum for everything. I think what the mum was saying is that the daughter she once knew isn't there anymore, and is replaced by someone who she barely recognises.

crashdoll Sat 22-Jun-13 14:52:50

Even in context, I still think it was a horrible thing to say.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sat 22-Jun-13 14:53:15

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10135252/Jeremy-Forrest-victims-mother-says-daughter-she-knew-is-dead.html

This is the statement. It's an unfortunate turn of phrase, but as you see, the mother blames herself

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sat 22-Jun-13 14:55:09

The context is that this pathetic inadequate man manipulated this girl.

Let's reserve the most anger for him

crashdoll Sat 22-Jun-13 14:59:48

Just because I think it was a nasty thing to say does not negate how disgustingly the teacher behaved.

LittlePeaPod Sat 22-Jun-13 15:00:51

I feel sorry for the girl, her mother / family and his wife.. As for him (the predator) he deserves every day of that sentence... Lets hope he enjoys the break in the same way all child sex offenders enjoy time in prison!! I dont know anyone that's in prison or anyone that has ever been in prison but I hear its not pleasant sex offenders...

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sat 22-Jun-13 15:01:51

Crashdoll

Have you read the statement?

NoobyNoob Sat 22-Jun-13 15:02:02

Whilst I'm not advocating what that knob did was right what so ever, surely the girl has to take some of the blame?

Idrinksquash Sat 22-Jun-13 15:02:02

The mother knew the daughter was involved with this man before she was taken to France, and didn't do a thing about it.

She then went on TV pleading total ignorance and bad mouthing the school who had actually followed all the correct procedures as soon as they suspected anything was going on.

IMO this girl was let down by all of the adults in her life.

NoobyNoob Sat 22-Jun-13 15:03:36

Totally agree Idrinksquash

Meglet Sat 22-Jun-13 15:04:38

I thought it was an odd thing to say too confused.

5madthings Sat 22-Jun-13 15:05:34

No nooby she doesnt!! Fgs go read some of the other threads and educate yourself a bit. This man manipulated a vulnerable girl. She is not to blame at all.

cornyblend37 Sat 22-Jun-13 15:06:41

you are taking her comments out of context
what a horrible thread

I haven't read the statement by the mother, but the phrase was the headline in one of the papers at the supermarket this morning - I just thought "How sad"
I also wondered why the mother felt that way. To be honest, most parents of teenagers feel that way at times, even when the circumstances aren't as drastic as here. I often look at my 15 year old and think "where did you come from?"

NoobyNoob Sat 22-Jun-13 15:07:58

Woah there - Don't get your knickers in a twist 5madthings

And yes, I have been reading the news - not the threads. She was nearly 16 years old, she was hardly dragged there kicking and screaming now was she?

So my opinion is that she is also to blame.

5madthings Sat 22-Jun-13 15:08:34

Er no the school didnt follow correct procedures. They had warned him repeatedly but not involved the police, child protection etc and he himself phoned up her mother and saud there was no relationship and blamed the girl for spreading rumours and trying to ruin his career.

He was and is a manipulative bastard and police aee now investigating if perjury was committed as he is thought to have contacted the girl via a third party and told her what to say in court.

NoobyNoob Sat 22-Jun-13 15:08:54

Anyway, I digress from the original thread and I'm not getting into it here.

5madthings Sat 22-Jun-13 15:09:38

He started a relationship with her when she was 14, it doesnt matter that she was kicking and screaming she was manipukated by an authority figure fgs.

noobyNoob Have you heard of the term grooming?

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sat 22-Jun-13 15:10:06

Nah

Imdon't want to get into it either

Crashdoll. Sorry, i didn't mean to have a go at you

expatinscotland Sat 22-Jun-13 15:10:17

I thought the same thing. But my daughter really is. I can promise her, there's the world of difference.

MrsDeVere Sat 22-Jun-13 15:11:50

I am usually the first to jump on pathetic, whingy comparisons with having a dead child.
Because I have a dead child. Nothing is 'like' having a dead child apart from actually having one.

So I was ready to be angry at this woman. But I have heard more of her statement and what she seems to be saying is that this abuser robbed her of her DD's childhood and changed her forever.

Which makes total sense to me.

NoobyNoob Sat 22-Jun-13 15:12:26

Yes I have singingsilver

Have you ever heard the phrase 'it takes two to tango'?

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sat 22-Jun-13 15:14:13

Nooby

You are either deliberatley goading or need to educate yourself a bit

Onesleeptillwembley Sat 22-Jun-13 15:16:28

It doesn't seem like the mother in question ever knew or cared to know her daughter. There has been an epic parenting fail. The poor girl has been let down left, right and centre.

expatinscotland Sat 22-Jun-13 15:16:33

I read the statement, too, and thought that phrase was still ill-thought-out at the least.

I thought she was mourning the 'death' of the person that the girl would have been, the life she would have had, and the relationship she could have had with her dd, had this evil man not have manipulated her dd into a 'relationship'.

bico Sat 22-Jun-13 15:17:16

I assume there is more to this girl's background than has been made public for the mother to say something so hurtful about her daughter.

I haven't read the article but I understand the phrase was written in what is supposed to be the victim impact statement. The girl is the victim here not her mother but maybe her mother wrote the statement because the girl refused to do so?

expatinscotland Sat 22-Jun-13 15:17:21

It does appear, too, that this young woman was let down by a lot of adults, on top of being sexually abused by the teacher.

5madthings Sat 22-Jun-13 15:17:30

Omfg nooby she was a vulnerable child and he was an adult in the position of responsibility,there shoukd be no 'tangoing' ever as he shouldnt allow himself to get into that situation!! I suspect you are the kind of person that thinks some girls were 'asking for it' when they are raped.

Quit with the victim blaming!!

MadBusLady Sat 22-Jun-13 15:19:25

Having read the whole of the link Jamie posted, I think there's much that is ambiguous about the mother's position, probably much context we do not know. And regardless it is still a very unpleasant choice of words.

Dawndonna Sat 22-Jun-13 15:19:32

Woah there - Don't get your knickers in a twist 5madthings

And yes, I have been reading the news - not the threads. She was nearly 16 years old, she was hardly dragged there kicking and screaming now was she?

So my opinion is that she is also to blame.
So you think that a 14 year old, vulnerable, self harming, with eating disorders is capable of making this sort of decision?
You're not bothered that he tried to groom others before this? Nothing to do with him being a predatory teacher who is not, by law allowed to have a relationship with a pupil, much less a pupil under the age of 18?

Idrinksquash Sat 22-Jun-13 15:19:40

And what made you privvy to that info then 5madthings?

Helpyourself Sat 22-Jun-13 15:21:25

Nooby have you heard of the age of consent?
Resisting the urge to look you up- some people should have to pass an exam before they're allowed children. I just hope you do a lot of growing up before your dcs can understand your warped thick world view.

crashdoll Sat 22-Jun-13 15:21:40

I did read the statement. I say I think it was nasty because I also read that the girl in question suffered with self-harming and low mood previously. She is vulnerable because of this, in addition to her age and now being in the public eye.

squeakytoy Sat 22-Jun-13 15:25:26

it is in the press for anyone to read..

MrsDeVere Sat 22-Jun-13 15:25:42

The man groomed a vulnerable child from the age of 14.

He had sex with her when she was just 15

He is in a post ion of influence and power.

He tried it with other girls.

There is no tangoing going on.

Just the abuse of a child and abuse of power.

It takes two to tango is a phrase used, like 'no smoke without fire', instead of cogent thought.

It is meaningless and only serves to highlight the user's lack of critical thinking skills.

IMHO smile

5madthings Sat 22-Jun-13 15:26:49

Privacy to what info? Watch the news and read, there is an investigation by the police.

Animation Sat 22-Jun-13 15:27:29

The statement from the mother and the estrangement does not reassure me that the daughter is as well supported as I had hoped.

The statement feels critical of the daughter and it focuses on the mother's ordeal rather than on the daughter's struggles. The daughter is the victim not the mother and yes, Jeremy Forrest is the perpetrator but the mother irritates me.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sat 22-Jun-13 15:27:51

MrsDV

Yes, and it's probably Political Correctness Gorn Mad as well

NoobyNoob Sat 22-Jun-13 15:28:05

I love how I'm jumped on for having a different opinion! It really is pathetic.

I suspect you are the kind of person that thinks some girls were 'asking for it' when they are raped this comment from you 5madthing is fucking disgusting. Of course I don't, and if you knew me you certainly wouldn't think that.

5madthings Sat 22-Jun-13 15:29:31

Well you are willing to lay the blame on a young vulnerable girl who has been manipulated and abused. Ffsryou said 'it takes two to tango' it is the same argument used by rape apologists.

5madthings Sat 22-Jun-13 15:30:32

And yes i will jump on victim blaming bullshit.

MrsDeVere Sat 22-Jun-13 15:31:24

'jumped on' is another odd phrase only used on internet forums when someone says something stupid and people disagree with them.

Its often used in the context 'I know I will probably get jumped on but.....'

you know, like when people say 'I am not racist but', 'I am not being funny but'...

THERhubarb Sat 22-Jun-13 15:34:40

There are other pupils now coming forward to say that he got inappropriately close to them when they were as young as 13.

Seems Mr Forrest always had a thing for young girls.

alreadytaken Sat 22-Jun-13 15:35:30

I don't normally bother with AIBU, seeing it as the sicker part of the site - this thread just proves that.

A predatory sex offender preys on a vulnerable child and takes her away from her family. For days they don't know if she is alive or dead. Of course the mother is a victim, less so than the girl but she suffered all the time her child was missing and is still suffering now the child is back. There is no way a mother grieving for the damage this man has done to their child can do as much harm as the man who caused the problem. Yes you are unreasonable and are lacking in any empathy unless you are male and empathise with sex offenders.

MrsDeVere Sat 22-Jun-13 15:36:11

Nah, it will be all those sexy schoolgirls ganging up on the poor soul.

5madthings Sat 22-Jun-13 15:36:12

Yes mrsdevereI agree its just like, 'its not her fault but.... Insert she shouldn't have had a drink/worn a short skirt' etc etc. Its bollocks and I will call it bullshit.

MrsDeVere Sat 22-Jun-13 15:40:33

Mothers are often blamed for their behaviour after incidents like this.
If their child dies they do not grieve quite correctly
If their child is abducted they perhaps look a bit too well dressed
If their child is abused they must have known
If their partner kills their children it must have been because she was trying to divorce him.

None of us knows how this woman is feeling, what this did to her. I have dealt with a teenager bent on self destruction. I was lost. I had no idea what to do next. Nothing was working but I blamed myself anyway. I loved that child but I couldn't like him. He was behaving in an utterly awful way.

I cannot bring myself to criticise this mother for her words, spoken after years of horrible worry and stress and being estranged from her DD who still believes she is in love with this disgusting man.

THERhubarb Sat 22-Jun-13 15:41:05

He waited until she turned 15 before he started having sex with her. So she was just turned 15 and not nearly 16, when he started sexually abusing her.

His relationship with her started at the age of 13 I believe.

I think when you compare a vulnerable, troubled teenager to a married, adult man, the differences are very clear.

She was still in school, still living with her parents, not had a serious boyfriend before and no real experiene of life.
He'd had several jobs, several girlfriends, been married, had kids, got a mortgage and had plenty of life experience.

Only a complete arsehole would think that she was just as much to blame.
Fancy leading him on with her school uniform and everything, him just a poor man unable to keep his dick in his pants everytime a schoolgirl came near. It's not his fault there are so many seductive teenagers around is it?

Animation Sat 22-Jun-13 15:43:54

Alreadytaken - Where is the mother now when the daughter needs her? I think the mother needs to get her mind off herself and on to how it might feel for the daughter. It would appear that the poor girl has been abandoned just because she's upset and all over the place, and this could be damaging for the girl.

I have no empathy for sex offenders btw - don't be so silly.

Dawndonna Sat 22-Jun-13 15:46:55

I love how I'm jumped on for having a different opinion! It really is pathetic.
What is pathetic about asking you to justify your opinion, as I have done?

THERhubarb Sat 22-Jun-13 15:47:17

According to newspaper reports, before this incident he would ask 13 year old girls to stay behind after class and would "cuddle" them. He had already gried to groom another 13 year old by sending her cards, cuddling her, giving her extra tuition after class and inviting her to watch him perform with his band.

He's just another paedophile.

But let's hear again about how it's all her fault that, at the age of 13 and clearly vulnerable, a teacher she has a crush on starts to take an interest in her, holds her hand, pens songs to her and kisses her outside school.

Yeah, she really initiated all of that at the age of 13.

Is there no more a pathetic example of humanity than a paedophile sympathiser?

maristella Sat 22-Jun-13 15:47:33

Oh my goodness, of course the poor lass is not to blame!
The extent of his grooming of her is plain for all to see.

IF he really loved her, which still wouldn't be right, he would be doing everything in his power to support her relationships with her family. But he hasn't. Grooming paedophiles don't want their victim to have a loving supportive family.
IF he really loved her, he would have waited until she was an adult. But he's a grooming paedophile and he knew that if he didn't act he would have seen her turn her attention to boys her own age.

Nasty fucking paedophile. Glad he's locked up, hope it's hell for him. But more importantly I hope she gets the intensive therapy she needs to disentangle from him.

MrsDeVere Sat 22-Jun-13 15:48:15

animation I do not think she is suggesting that 'my daughter is dead to me now'

She is saying that she has lost the daughter that she had. Her daughter has been changed by the man who stole a chunk of her childhood.

She was asked how she felt. She expressed it.

When I talk about my DD I don't dwell on what it was like for her. I talk about how I feel. That doesn't mean I don't care what she went through. Its just too painful to let my mind light on for a moment.

This woman is not a professional celebrity. She is just an ordinary person thrust into an extraordinary situation. I don't know what you expect of her.

If the victim had been a boy there would be no ambiguity at all.

because she is a girl she must be partially responsible, cos gosh you know what girls can be like. hmm

maristella Sat 22-Jun-13 15:48:46

I didn't know about him cuddling 13 year olds angryangryangryangryangry

Predatory fucking paedophile

Read the whole statement. I feel sorry for her.

burberryqueen Sat 22-Jun-13 15:50:17

Have you ever heard the phrase 'it takes two to tango'?
inane cliched drivel, 'noobynoob' - fgs he was her TEACHER she was 13 or 14.

NoobyNoob Sat 22-Jun-13 15:56:18

Rape - being made to have sex un-willingly

In this case - admitting you were the one who suggested going to France, being quite happy about the fact, not calling said parents to let them know she was alive, admitting she was in love with him.

Difference, no?

Not getting into this here Noobynoob but I couldn't read your ignorant comments without stopping to say that your opinions are fucking disgusting and if you want to spout your victim blaming bullshit maybe take it to the comments section of the Daily Fail website rather than here.

MrsDeVere Sat 22-Jun-13 15:59:01

No RAPE = sex activity without consent.

She was too young to give informed consent to a predatory man who had groomed her for years.

You are an apologist for sex offenders.

I am sure their are clubs for people like you to join.

NoobyNoob Sat 22-Jun-13 16:00:58

Oh my fucking CHRIST!!! I'm not blaming her totally and unreservedly.

I'm saying that she couldn't have been that bothered by it if she willing went ahead with this whole relationship.

THERhubarb Sat 22-Jun-13 16:01:45

Nooby - I would love to tell you what I think of your ignorant, ill-thought out statements but that would get me banned.

I'm so pleased you are an authority on rape.

Of course, as a 15 year old schoolgirl it was all her fault. Of course at 15 years old she arranged for her own passport to go to France, she booked the ferry, she hired the car, she drove them to Bordeaux, she booked the accommodation. What a little seductress she is!

He was dragged along quite reluctantly as it happens. The fact that he used his wife's passport for her was mere coincidence. The fact that he didn't pick up the phone to let her parents know that she was safe (as most adults in that situation would have done with a runaway child) was also not his fault.

He was an adult with a lifetime of experience behind him. She was a vulnerable runaway child.

What do you do with a runaway child? Tell their parents? Tell the police? No, you have sex with them of course!

5madthings Sat 22-Jun-13 16:02:00

What mrsdevere said.

She didn't give consent, she was groomed and manipulated by a predatory man who was supposed to look after her.

Animation Sat 22-Jun-13 16:02:48

MrsDeVere.

I'm most bothered that the mother is estranged from her daughter.

I agree that she may not be saying she's 'dead' to her - as in that she wants nothing to do with her..

NoobyNoob Sat 22-Jun-13 16:03:03

Too young? I lost my virginity before 16 and I was well aware of what I was doing.

I would really appreciate it if people could stop with the whole apologist for sex offenders shite. It's offensive and it's not what I'm doing. I'm giving an opinion of how I see the story.

expatinscotland Sat 22-Jun-13 16:04:06

Did you lose it to your 30-year-old teacher whom you'd been in a 'relationship' with since you were 13?

NoobyNoob Sat 22-Jun-13 16:06:23

Not a teacher - an electrician actually

He was mid twenties and I'm very happily married to him smile

chipmonkey Sat 22-Jun-13 16:06:44

"It takes two to tango" Seriously? When one is a vulnerable teenager and the other a grown man? Do you have teenagers, Noob? I do. They think they're all grown up but they're still children. No 30 year old teacher should think it's appropriate to "tango" with a child in his care.

Like expat and MrsD, my daughter is actually dead, so in a way, when I read her statement, I thought, "No, your daughter is alive and you at least can have hope that you can salvage a relationship with her. I can never have hope of that"

But I can actually see what she means. She feels her child has been damaged and corrupted by this perverted prat and that she will never be the same as if he'd kept his grubby paws off her. I still think she's in a mucb better position than us, though.

MadBusLady Sat 22-Jun-13 16:07:53

The trouble is, Nooby, if your opinion basically involves being an apologist for sex offenders, then that is what it is. Either live with being called on it, or change your opinion.

This is like when people object to being called racist for saying things that are, in fact, racist. They sort of know racism = bad and don't want it associated with them, but can't make the link to the fact that they need to stop saying racist things. So they do a whole "You can't say anything nowadays!" spiel. You can, you just can't say say racist things without people thinking you're racist.

Same with this. It's just not possible to make a statement like "It takes two to tango" with regards to a case where one party cannot legally give consent without being an apologist for the offender.

MrsDeVere Sat 22-Jun-13 16:09:10

But do we know why they are estranged?

The daughter still says she loves this man.
The mother has been a witness against him in court.

In the daughter's eyes the mother has put the love of her life in jail. Maybe?

I don't know what has happened. Did the mother kick her out?

Is there a suggestion that the mother has estranged herself from the daughter? <genuine question because I don't have a clue>

THERhubarb Sat 22-Jun-13 16:09:36

I shall type this very slowly for the benefit of Nooby who might be slow to read it.

He targeted her from the age of 13.
He sent her cards, cuddled her (as he did with other 13yo pupils) he made her feel special when she was going through a rough angsty patch at home.

She looked up to him, her teacher who played with a rock band - how very cool! He wrote a song for her, how romantic!

She was groomed for 2 years, from 13 to 15 years old. A child who had none of the life experiences we have had, a child who had never had a serious relationship with a boy before, a child who was going through adolescence, a child who trusted an adult, a child who has no hindsight or cynicism, a child who had never left home before.

She is A CHILD and he is HER TEACHER. Yet you still say that it's up to her if she wants to runaway with this man, who already has previous because presumably she's capable of making those life-changing and very grown-up decisions?

You don't think she was persuaded at all? You think that past experience helped her to make a rational decision?

What did he have to lose? He knew that he was being investigated and his other offences would come to light, so what does he do? He takes the 15 year old and he runs off to France with her. Thus avoiding prosecution (he thinks) avoiding his other indiscretions coming to light and where he is able to enter into sexual relations with this child quite freely.

crashdoll Sat 22-Jun-13 16:09:40

This child had mental health problems even prior to the abuse she has suffered. I'd be horrified if my mother felt the old person was dead. She was bloody mentally unwell!

MrsDeVere Sat 22-Jun-13 16:11:24

Then you are projecting massively nooby

This is NOT your story. You are not this girl.

You have a vested interest in normalising this story.

That is your issue.

THERhubarb Sat 22-Jun-13 16:13:50

Did your husband have previous relationships with teenagers Nooby? Did he meet you when you were 13? Did he have secret meetings with you when you were 13? Was he in a position of authority where he would have had to undergo training in child protection?

You are excusing the actions of a paedo based on your own personal experience with your husband. I wonder how your hubby would feel about that?

I suggest you research this story a little more, find out about Mr Forrest's background and other accusations against him and then come back and tell us that this girl made her decision without any persuasion or influence whatsover.

THERhubarb Sat 22-Jun-13 16:14:57

MrsDeVere exactly <applauds>

NoobyNoob Sat 22-Jun-13 16:15:24

Of-course I don't, like I said in my previous post - I don't condone what this twat has done. It's unacceptable to the highest standard imaginable - a teacher is a person of trust and authority and he abused that.

What I am trying to say, is that if she willingly went with this guy how can he mostly be to blame.

She fell well and truly in love with him, through his doing which I do understand. But surely she knows what is right and wrong, and she cose to go with him to France - it was her idea.

No need to be so patronising though THE - not really necessary.

5madthings Sat 22-Jun-13 16:15:57

Can I also say that if any of my sons when in their 20's gets into a relationship with a girl who is under 16 then I will be telling them that if they truly love her then they will do the right thing and wait for her to be the age of consent and I would be very disappointed in them if they did not wait, regardless of how much the girl was 'begging for it' as they are the adults and I expect them to do the right thing and wait.

5madthings Sat 22-Jun-13 16:16:40

She didn't really choose tho, she was manipulated.

Onesleeptillwembley Sat 22-Jun-13 16:17:35

Sorry Nooby, but what sort of man in his mid 20's actually wants to sleep with a girl under the age of consent? Just because you're happy with that does NOT make it right! That's disgusting.

OMFG I thought I had seen it all on this subject and then yet another ignorant fucking wanker comes along angry

NoobyNoob Sat 22-Jun-13 16:18:44

One Sorry you think it's disgusting! Best hope your kids don't turn out like me then, eh?

Oh and the thought of a man in his mid twenties being interested sexually in a girl below the age of legal consent makes my flesh crawl.

working9while5 Sat 22-Jun-13 16:20:14

I've read the statement and I think it is a horrible selfish thing to say.

Elizabeth Smart who was abducted has spoken about how degraded she felt because of messages she had been given before that about how someone who lost their virginity was like "used chewing gum".

The daughter she knew is dead implies that her pre-abduction daughter was "better" e.g. she is "grieving" for her. She needs to be a mother to her LIVE daughter NOW and not be making such horrendous statements in the public arena.

While the predator is the predator and deserves our contempt for what he did and the damage he has wrought, this sort of rhetoric from your mother isn't exactly helpful as far as I can see.

Onesleeptillwembley Sat 22-Jun-13 16:21:37

No, I hope my kids don't turn out to be a victim (whether you recognise it or not, though I think subconsciously you do, hence your attitude one here) and I'd be more upset and ashamed if the wanted to sleep with a 15 year old in their mid 20's.
your experience has given us an insight into your views on here, it's very sad.

Dawndonna Sat 22-Jun-13 16:22:05

For the particularly hard of thinking. It goes like this:
1)If you are vulnerable, you are not up to making value judgements, eg. is this a good or bad person.
2) You are vulnerable if you have an eating disorder.
3) You are vulnerable if you self harm.
4) You are vulnerable if you are a fourteen year old girl.
5) You are vulnerable if a teacher has manipulated you AND your family.
6) If said teacher decides to let you know that you have made a decision to have sex with him, then you are vulnerable and it is rape.
7) If you cannot under any circumstances accept that there is no way the girl concerned was groomed, forced, manipulated into taking decisions that were not good for her, if you cannot see that she is vulnerable, then this post applies to you.

lolaflores Sat 22-Jun-13 16:22:52

nooby would this be a pertinent moment to point out that your now husband was in fact committing statutory rape with you when you lost your virginity?
What might on the outside look like a young person making decisions, what is actually happening is quite different. The nuances between the two are a million miles apart. The reason people are reacting in such a way is that
a. you are seriously unaware of how young people behave
b. you are being willfully stubborn
c. you are taking the piss

NoobyNoob Sat 22-Jun-13 16:23:24

Hob Couldn't say I'm that bothered by what you think! I'm happy, and have been happy for years. I have two beautiful young children.

It was what I wanted, and I'm pleased I met him when I did smile

NoobyNoob Sat 22-Jun-13 16:25:20

One how on earth can I be a victim?! That has made me chuckle!

flippinada Sat 22-Jun-13 16:25:59

I feel very sorry for the girls mum having her victim impact statement pulled to bits like this. She and her family have been through utter hell. She had a week not knowing whether her daughter was alive or dead. Can you imagine (I'm sure many of us can).

Plus of course the press intrusion, and of course the girl cannot be named but everyone knows who she is and by extension they will know her family.

Now maybe her home life wasn't great; we do know that she was (is) very troubled and it's likely there were issues at home (not unusual for teenagers) - but that just makes what JF did even worse.

Onesleeptillwembley Sat 22-Jun-13 16:27:08

You were under the legal age of consent. A 'man' in his mid twenties had sex with you. You are so far in denial. Please don't tell me you'd be happy for your children in that scenario. But I'm guessing you will.

Frenchvanilla Sat 22-Jun-13 16:28:45

It's a really complicated situation <understatement>

I can understand the mother's thoughts.

It's not the future she had planned- the GCSEs, the end of school, school prom, and whatever else after that. All unexpectedly taken away from both of them.

I expect she probably feels betrayed and lied to by her own daughter. I hope she can see that her daughter was wholly manipulated by Forrester.

In addition, she says 'she is aiming all her anger at me'. I expect the girl is a ball of rage and emotional turmoil right now, especially as she considers herself to be still in love with the odious little man. That's not easy to contend with.

God, it just makes me feel so sad for this girl. I really do hope they reconcile and that the girl can move forward with her young life after this.

I agree that the behaviour of mothers after high profile events involving their children is overly scrutinised and criticised. Just another example of our misogynistic society, unfortunately.

expatinscotland Sat 22-Jun-13 16:29:23

One how on earth can I be a victim?! That has made me chuckle!

Because if you were my son or daughter, I'd press charges on the person in his/her mid-20s who had sex with you when you were 15. It's illegal.

lolaflores Sat 22-Jun-13 16:29:37

Nooby I have had a long pause and re read your comment it was what I wanted....at 14. Really? Well, from my point of view, I would run any older man sniffing round my 14 year old...he shouldn't be there. I am delighted that you are happy with your choice though I think the word choice is redundant here.

Moxiegirl Sat 22-Jun-13 16:30:02

Let's see how you feel if your beautiful young children become 15 year olds who are groomed and exploited shall we?
Trust me it's horrific.

NoobyNoob Sat 22-Jun-13 16:31:11

One I was under the legal age, but I suggested it. I knew what I wanted and I got it. I'm not in denial trust me!

I know an awful lot of people who had sex at 15, and I'm sure a fair few of the people who post on here did too. Don't make me out to be a victim when half of these people on this board probably are too.

THERhubarb Sat 22-Jun-13 16:32:45

Nooby

Was it really her idea?

So she was not manipulated at all was she not?
Not placed under any pressure?
Needed no encouragement?

Her, a 15 year old decided to take her 28 year old teacher to France with her and he just went along like a puppy did he?

Why on earth do you keep insisting that she made all the key decisions here and that she must take half the blame?

Have you still not understood that he had been grooming her for 2 years? That is 2 years in the most vulnerable period of her life - adolescence.

Do you understand how brainwashing works? Have you not heard of women being tricked into handing over money to potential suitors, or of them being tricked into having sex with someone who promises to marry them?

How much more so is a child open to such tactics?

She was a vulnerable child who trusted an experienced adult.
In that situation it is wrong to say that she made such a life-changing decision willingly with all the information available to her.

He had wormed his way into her affections. It was fairly easy for him to get her to fall in love with him. He was very active in this relationship, taking her to gigs, holding her hand, sending her letters and cards, writing her songs. He couldn't have tried harder could he? Does this sound like a man who is fighting his feelings?

No, it sounds like a man who is trying to woo someone. In this case a child.

Remember that. He was actively pursuing this relationship.

She was completely under his influence.

He knew what impact this decision would have on their lives. She could not as she was just a child.

So no, she could not have consented with full knowledge in that situation. She was manipulated and the worst thing is that he has told everyone that it was all her idea. Laying the blame squarely on the shoulders of a child.

What a catch he is.

MrsDeVere Sat 22-Jun-13 16:35:42

working I can honestly see where you are coming from and if that is what the mother means I would agree with you.

But I am not sure that it is. I don't think this is about her DD having sex, being soiled or used.
For me it seems more about her losing her child to this man. Her child being turned into a sexual object who was besotted with this utter waste of a man.

Their family may not have been perfect as it was but it is now fractured and it probably seems beyond repair.

But I don't know what she means. I am putting my own interpretation on to it as we all are.

chicaguapa Sat 22-Jun-13 16:36:03

I feel very sorry for the girl tbh. She was vulnerable at 14 because she was self-harming etc as a result of the breakdown of her parents' marriage and the subsequent moving in of her mum's new partner.

She ran away from home with her 30-year old teacher who had encouraged an inappropriate relationship. The courts ruled that she had been abused by a paedophile. She feels that she's responsible for putting the man she loves in jail for 5 1/2 years.

And her mother releases a 'me, me, me' statement to say that she no longer knows her daughter etc. I'm quite sure she feels that way, but where's the unconditional support and love?

I don't blame the mum for what happened. God knows teenagers are hard to parent, but I do think her public comments towards her daughter who has been abused are strange to say the least. hmm

Hellohippo Sat 22-Jun-13 16:36:49

Wasn't there a story where the parents were taken to hospital after a joint suicide attempt? I can't begin to imagine what this has done to all the family but his family are standing by him which surely to him normalises his behaviour.

needaholidaynow Sat 22-Jun-13 16:37:22

I agree OP. I found her words very harsh and wouldn't surprise me if those words alone damage her daughter.

hackmum Sat 22-Jun-13 16:38:10

Onesleep: "You were under the legal age of consent. A 'man' in his mid twenties had sex with you. You are so far in denial."

But she's now married to him, and they have two children. Don't you think it's offensive and belittling to her to tell her that she's in denial?

I think the trouble is that everyone is so angry about this that they're not actually listening to what Nooby is saying. All she's saying is that at 15 she was emotionally mature enough to make her own decisions. She doesn't feel that the man she was with was "exploiting" her or "grooming" her because she later married him.

I don't like what Forrest did, particularly as he was in a position of authority, and it is right that he was prosecuted. I suppose I don't like the discourse that assumes that all 15-year old girls are "vulnerable" or incapable of making their own choices. Lots of girls are having sex at 15 - in fact, as a culture we have come to regard that as normal. We seem to be operating some kind of double standard where we think girls are emotionally mature enough to have sex at 15, but if they are doing so with an older man then suddenly they are mentally and emotionally incapable of giving consent.

lolaflores Sat 22-Jun-13 16:38:47

nooby you suggested sex, for a laugh? Or because you thought it was what he wanted? That it would be the grown up thing to do and make you are proper couple so you could be a woman? Because you were a child! No matter what way you put it, your age cannot be changed.
And as for other losing their virginity in their early teens, most of them would have had that experience with someone their own age or thereabouts not an adult. so you married your older man and you think that it makes it ok. If that works for you then goodo, but in the main such an experience would raise eyebrows and as others have said, would you be so comfortable if your own child was the object of attention from an older person....

Onesleeptillwembley Sat 22-Jun-13 16:38:59

Noob your husband was in his mid 20's. that's not like a 15 and 16/7 year old. Whatever you say, that's not normal and you were/are a victim. I genuinely don't see that a normal man of that age would go for a child.

THERhubarb Sat 22-Jun-13 16:39:06

It is illegal for anyone to have sex with a child under the age of 16. If caught, your husband would have been placed on the sex offenders register and labelled a paedophile.

You see the way it works is that a child who has no real experience of the outside world is not seen as capable of making a mature decision that could affect the rest of their lives.

In this case of a much older person who has experienced work, leaving home, etc it is all the worse for them to take advantage of an inexperienced girl who still only has double maths to worry about.

I'm sure your poor husband was completely unable to say no. I'm sure you lured him with your seductress ways that you learnt in school.

I'm so pleased you feel that your experience gives you the right to be an authority on every other scenario you come across, despite the obvious differences which you are quite keen to ignore.

Mainly that he was actually much older than her.
He was married with children.
He was her teacher.
He had actively pursued the relationship since she was 13.
He had previously targeted other 13 year old schoolgirls.

flippinada Sat 22-Jun-13 16:39:57

In addition to what other people have said. I'd like to point out that he successfully deceived his colleagues, the girls mother and his wife, alll of whom are adults, not once, but many times over a number of months.

Given that, it's not much of a leap to see that manipulating an unhappy, vulnerable young person for your own ends would be (sorry to be crude) a piece of piss.

MrsCampbellBlack Sat 22-Jun-13 16:40:23

I'm not surprised you think the victim is in some way culpable Nooby. Because if you didn't, well I guess you'd have to take a long hard look at what happened to you.

5madthings Sat 22-Jun-13 16:40:23

Any decent man would tell his 14/15 yr old girlfriend that they would do the right thing and wait till she was actually old enough to legally consent and they woukd back off and wait a few years and if it was still 'love' then they could see how they felt once she was an adult not a schoolgirl.

Tbh i would seriously question why any man wants a relationship with a child still at school and my boys woukd be told in no uncertain terms it was wrong.

lolaflores Sat 22-Jun-13 16:42:22

hackmum the guy abused his position. he has form for being around young girls in his charge. she was a very vulnerable girl given the background of self harm and family life being what it was. she was perfect material for a predatory man.
there is no double standard. a 15 year old with an older man is not involved in an equal relationship based on mutual experience and maturity

Animation Sat 22-Jun-13 16:43:06

"the behaviour of mothers after high profile events involving their children is overly scrutinised and criticised."

Where there's estrangement it's always the parents' job to make the first move and make every effort to understand and give support. If this girl is depressed, anxious or angry it's what one would expect in the circumstances and it's not OK for the parents to give up on her now.

THERhubarb Sat 22-Jun-13 16:43:07

hackmum

The newspapers are now questioning all those who defended Forrest with those very observations.

All those who said that they loved each other.

Where are they now that other pupils are coming forward with their own stories of how he targeted them, cuddling them, sending them cards and keeping them behind after class when they were aged just 13?

I feel the need to repeat this:

HE ACTIVELY PURSUED A RELATIONSHIP WITH A 13 YEAR OLD WHEN HE WAS 28.

He was the one who was wooing her. He did not even try to cover up what he was doing. She was not the first.

Is there anyone else who would like to excuse him or would like to think this is just another love story?

flippinada Sat 22-Jun-13 16:43:32

"...his family are standing by him which surely to him normalises his behaviour."

Yes, I'm wondering why aren't his family the focus of media attention, with people wondering how on earth they have failed so badly in bringing up a son who thinks it's ok to behave like this?

Onesleeptillwembley Sat 22-Jun-13 16:49:04

With the background coming out now, and the stories from the other girls, is anyone else wondering just how he got away with being so blatantly predatory for so long? Surely gossip in schools travels?

chicaguapa Sat 22-Jun-13 16:49:35

I think the difference is that JF is a grown man so the focus isn't on his family as he's deemed to be an independent adult. Whereas the girl is still under the care of her parents, so they are being scrutinised. Not saying it's right, but that's probably where the different attitudes are coming from.

MrsDeVere Sat 22-Jun-13 16:52:13

oneslept I would suggest the answer to that question lies in some of the attitudes displayed on this thread.

Sadly

THERhubarb Sat 22-Jun-13 16:54:59

MrsDeVere yup. All those schoolgirl seductresses targeting their poor, hapless male teachers.

flippinada Sat 22-Jun-13 16:55:32

There is that chicaguapa - I was trying to make the point (perhaps clumsily and not very successfully) that to treat either family like that would be unfair.

Onesleeptillwembley Sat 22-Jun-13 16:59:44

Mrs DV you sadly are right in one way, but it's such a minority view I still don't see how he's never been well for want of a better word, exposed for what he is.

Dawndonna Sat 22-Jun-13 17:02:16

I've just done a quick count. All but two of dds form mates are still virgins. They are all 16, all will be in Sixth form in December. I do not believe that half of all 15 year olds are having sex. And so what if they are. They're probably having sex with their peers, not their bloody teachers!

edam Sat 22-Jun-13 17:02:42

If people are determined to attack relatives, why not look at Forrest's? His family are 'standing by him'.

Justfornowitwilldo Sat 22-Jun-13 17:05:32

Enough of this victim blaming crap.

flippinada Sat 22-Jun-13 17:05:58

Quite edam. I'm saying it's unfair to attack either family but he wasn't raised by wolves, was he?

Must admit I am wondering why they are all defending him. I've also read that they are encouraging the relationship.

Perhaps there should be more focus on them.

Thymeout Sat 22-Jun-13 17:06:06

Back in the 80's I had a conversation in the staffroom with 2 male teachers who were discussing their feelings for a 15 yr old pupil. This was a 15 yr old who looked and behaved like an 18 yr old. Both admitted they fancied her and were bemused by it because she was underage and it was therefore obviously wrong.

Neither would have taken it any further and both made sure they were never alone with her. To my mind, they were not paedophiles. They were reacting biologically to a girl who behaved like a woman.

This is in no way to excuse Forrest. What he did was inexcusable. Just that I think, if we are having an honest discussion, we should acknowledge that branding everyone who is attracted to a young girl as a paedophile and a pervert is misleading and inaccurate.

THERhubarb Sat 22-Jun-13 17:06:17

I hate it when someone says "Oh they're all at it", as if that makes it ok for someone to abuse a teenager.

It is STILL illegal and it does NOT excuse the grooming of a vulnerable child for sex.

Animation Sat 22-Jun-13 17:06:48

Forrest can look after himself - with or without his family. This girl needs her parents - are they there for her or not. It would seem the mother isn't right now.

THERhubarb Sat 22-Jun-13 17:08:33

Thymeout he was attracted to her when she was 13.
He was also attracted to other 13 year olds.
He seduced her, not the other way round. He actively encouraged a relationship.

We are not branding everyone who has feelings for a young girl as a pervert. We are merely branding those who act upon it.

flippinada Sat 22-Jun-13 17:08:39

I don't mean to imply it's a valid relationship btw. Wrong use of words.

edam Sat 22-Jun-13 17:10:19

It would seem Forrest has, quite possibly, succeeded in alienating her from her Mother. Amongst his other crimes.

I wonder whether the 'mutual friend' the police are investigating is one of Forrest's family members... Certainly think the social workers involved in this case should be having very stern words with the Forrest family about staying away from the poor girl.

Animation Sat 22-Jun-13 17:16:26

Edam - is the girl living with the 'mutual friend' who might be a Forrest family member??

flippinada Sat 22-Jun-13 17:18:31

Yes, abusers are good at isolating their victims from sources of support, and if she didn't have a good relationship with her mother he will have exploited that.

I thought the girl was now living with her stepfather?

I know a married couple who met when she was 13, and his pupil, and he was about 26 - so the same situation initially as in this case.

The difference is that while she was his pupil absolutely nothing happened between them. In fact she was a couple of years out of school before anything romantic started. Because unlike Forrest, my friend is a civilised human being.

Most girls have a crush on a teacher at some point - a young male teacher who is even remotely attractive or cool is an obvious target for that crush. But 99 times out of 100 (at least) that's all it is, and it fizzles out as she grows up. It is up to the teacher to deflect any inappropriate affection, attachment or advances. Every teacher knows this.

The message I want to give my children (hell, the whole world) is that if they are your true love they will wait; and if they won't wait then they aren't your true love.

NoobyNoob Sat 22-Jun-13 17:22:08

Hack thank the beuatiful lord that someone gets where I'm coming from!

Lola I suggested it because I wanted it, shocking isn't it?

I have to go now to meet my husband, in total denial obviously smile

Thymeout Sat 22-Jun-13 17:25:20

Rhubarb, Onesleep said, 'What sort of a man in his mid-20's wants to sleep with a girl below the age of consent? That's disgusting.' Even wanting to. I'm pointing out that I think the instinct would be there in quite a few men if they met the girl, say, in a club. As I said, my colleagues were troubled because even though they knew the girl's age they still found her attractive.

And I may have got it wrong but I think the relationship began when she was 14 and a half on the L.A. trip?

lolaflores Sat 22-Jun-13 17:32:15

Thyme 14 and a half...so that makes a difference does it somehow? And that men work on instinct do they?
What are you fumbling for here?

lolaflores Sat 22-Jun-13 17:32:53

Nooby you keep on thinking that my lovely if it helps. I am sure it disturbs plenty of others

FCEK Sat 22-Jun-13 17:33:09

I hope the time he is in prison will enable the pupil to mature and realise that the relationship is unhealthy.
I think he manipulated her and continues to do so. The recent claims that he tried with other pupils, indicates that he doesn't really 'love' her, he just was more successful in his attempts.
He was in a position of trust and abused that. He allowed her to lie to her mother, to leave the country, without anyone knowing where they were or if they were safe.
Even if they really do 'love' each other and have a future together, it was a horrible thing to do to her mother. It would be my worse nightmare come true.
I have full sympathy for her mother, and for his poor wife. I have zero sympathy for the girl, her behaviour even now is appalling.
He is the type to do it again.

flippinada Sat 22-Jun-13 17:34:16

"We seem to be operating some kind of double standard where we think girls are emotionally mature enough to have sex at 15, but if they are doing so with an older man then suddenly they are mentally and emotionally incapable of giving consent."

I think you are are missing the point here hackmum - the age of consent is a bit of a red herring.

He was in a position of trust over a vulnerable young girl and he used that position of trust to exploit her for his own ends...and it looks like he's still doing it.

I use the word vulnerable advisedly there. A young person who self harms and has an eating disorder is most certainly vulnerable. What she needed was unconditional support and love. If he cared about her so much, that's what he would provided.

burberryqueen Sat 22-Jun-13 17:34:16

yeh he has the face of a pervert IMO

lolaflores Sat 22-Jun-13 17:36:32

What about JF's wife? I hope she has divorced or is in the process of divorcing the weirdo.

Glitterkitten24 Sat 22-Jun-13 17:40:02

I might have made this up, because I can't remember where I read it, but I was under the impression that the girl had moved out of the family home because she blamed her mother for how it had all turned out.

It doesn't sound like the estrangement is on the side of the mother, but the daughter who is projecting her anger onto her mother.

I don't suppose we will ever know, but either way it's a very sad story - lots of lives ruined by one persons actions.
I hope that when the daughter is a bit older/less emotional about it all that the mother & daughter can repair their relationship.

Onesleeptillwembley Sat 22-Jun-13 17:45:54

Thymeout yes, I can see that scenario, but a man (or woman) in their mid 20's who KNOWINGLY SLEEPS with a 15 year old has something missing. However much the child 'wants it'. Fancying someone is not the same as acting on it, knowing it's wrong.

Thymeout Sat 22-Jun-13 17:53:25

Yes, Onesleep. I agree wholeheartedly with that.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Animation Sat 22-Jun-13 18:20:16

I don't think a mother should give up on the daughter whether she is angry or not at her. In the statement the mother actually sounds angry at the daughter. Maybe the mother needs to get some support herself to help her re-engage with her daughter - to see it as her responsibility to do so and to understand that the daughters anger is a symptom of the abuse and to not to take it personally.

ScentedCandlestickMaker Sat 22-Jun-13 18:21:30

The mother's statement makes it clear why this girl was groomed.

ScentedCandlestickMaker Sat 22-Jun-13 18:23:27

Although, maybe the mother is just really inarticulate and meant to say that she longed for the old uncomplicated relationship they once had. But, hmm, I suspect that as animation says, she is angry at her daughter. You are right, she needs help understanding that her daughter's anger towards her is part of the grooming.

crashdoll Sat 22-Jun-13 18:37:21

"It is illegal for anyone to have sex with a child under the age of 16. If caught, your husband would have been placed on the sex offenders register and labelled a paedophile."

A person who has sex with a child under the age of 16 may not necessarily be a paedophile if the child has gone through puberty. The word paedophile is actually misused quite a lot.

My story is all too similar to this poor girl's, except it was someone from church and we didn't run away. Everyone pretty much except my family knew, and did nothing. He's just got out of prison. My ideas of 'consent' and knowing my own mind have changed so much since I was 14. It has changed even in the last few years- what I believed was acceptable at 18 when I went to the police I now know was rape.

Grooming is so powerful; unless you've been there you cannot understand. Its like someone slowly takes over all of your thoughts and values and twists them, until you hate yourself and everyone else and believe that this person is the only one who will understand you/save you from what's going on in your life.

I feel really sorry for the Mum, knowing the anguish my parents went through. I never heard my parent's victim impact statements, as it was too painful. I'm even sorrier for the girl because I have an idea of what's going to lie ahead for her psychologically, and how people are going to think judge her and make her out to be a slut and blame her for everything.

The only person completely undeserving of any understanding or sympathy is him, because he's a paedophile who has ruined many lives.

BOF Sat 22-Jun-13 18:49:46

I don't think the mother has given up on her daughter at all. But in place of the kid who used to go shopping with her and still ask for a cuddle when she wasn't well, there is now an angry teenager who believes her mother has done all she can to ruin her happiness; an older, unhappy girl who refuses to be in the same room as her mother and hence insisted on living elsewhere.

In that sense, yes, I absolutely understand what that poor woman means: her relationship with her daughter has been shattered, probably beyond repair. The young woman will feel the effects of it down the line, but right now is probably buoyed up by her sense of righteous anger, and the romance of passing secret notes to her older lover in prison, because she believes that they are soulmates. All the mother has is a feeling of being hated- she is heartbroken.

I'm not sure why some people are interpreting her words as hostile, tbh. Maybe they are confusing it with the phrase "dead to me"? I think this is completely the wrong end of the stick.

BOF Sat 22-Jun-13 18:53:50

People- I was typing mine when you wrote your post: I'm so sorry you went through that.

flippinada Sat 22-Jun-13 18:59:46

People you have my heartfelt sympathy - as does anyone who has been through this; and quite a few posters have described similar things happening to them.

BOF I agree, very good post. People are taking issue with the wording used by her Mum. Unless you've been there (God forbid), I really don't think you can criticise.

bugdem Sat 22-Jun-13 19:03:05

Jesus wept, some of the opinions on here completely blow my mind. She was groomed for a long period of time by someone in a position of power and trust above her. She's the definition of a victim, even if she doesn't realise it yet. Poor girl, my heart breaks for her.

Thanks BOF and flippinada. People's victim blaming attitudes just make my heart sink. Worse is the fact some people don't understand the difference between 2 teenagers having sex and the abuse of trust and power that takes place when a much older adult has sex with a child under 16.

Its not so much about sex. Its more about control, and he's still obviously controlling that girl. That's what makes me so angry about these people, and that manipulation is probably what has influenced what the Mum has said in her statement

Portofino Sat 22-Jun-13 19:13:15

What Bof said. And People, many (((hugs to you))). When I was 13, 14 I was obsessed by many pop stars. If (unlikely) they had promised to love me and wanted sex who bloody knows but I may well have gone along with it. They on the other hand were adults who should know better. There seems to be a lot in the news recently where people who should have known better abused trusting, vulnerable young people. I was quite shocked reading John Taylor's autobiography recently - what a self absorbed twat he turned out to be <<shattered dreams>> - that when on tour in US, Duran Duran were issued with a list of the age of consent In each state. How fucking sad is that?

SarahAndFuck Sat 22-Jun-13 19:13:16

This is the Mother's statement taken from that article, for anyone who doesn't want to click the link.

The schoolgirl’s mother said in a victim impact statement read to Lewes Crown Court:

"The daughter I know is dead. I'm grieving for her and it upsets me beyond words. I feel completely useless most of the time. I feel I have failed as a parent as I don't understand how someone can do this to my child and I had no idea.

“I feel like the worst mother in the world. Whatever anyone else says, it does not matter, that is how I feel. Someone got to my child and I never saw it coming or realised it was happening.

“I feel like part of (her) childhood has been robbed from me – her last day at school, dressing her up in a party dress for the school prom – it's all been taken from us.

“My relationship with my daughter will never be the same again. She is aiming all her anger at me, that she has to give evidence and attend court, somehow that is all my fault. She feels she cannot trust me and she has gone to live elsewhere.”

The woman said her other children had suffered and had been forced to move home which had caused “further difficulties”. The woman wept in court as her statement was read out.

Giving evidence earlier last week, she disclosed that she had apologised to Forrest after he contacted her to deny the affair last year, blaming the girl for the persistent rumours.

She said he had insinuated her daughter was "a bit of a pain" and kept hanging around him, expressing fears that she could damage his reputation.

"I was mortified that my daughter could put someone in that position," she said. "I was horrified, ashamed and I had a go at her."

Now this man has groomed this girl from the age of 13. Effectively, I believe she was brainwashed by him, so all this "two to tango", "she went willingly", "it was her idea" and "she can't have minded" nonsense is just that. Nonsense. And that's putting it very politely.

Her age, and his prolonged grooming/brainwashing of her to me means that she didn't go willingly and it wasn't her idea. Everything in her head was put there by him, she had no choice and no free will, even if she believes she did. She was groomed and brainwashed. Like a member of a cult or a kidnap victim with Stockholm syndrome.

And he even had the front to lie to her mother and claim her daughter was bothering him, while all the time he was worming his way into her head and manipulating her.

Like some of the others here, my daughter is really dead, and so is my eldest son.

That doesn't mean I think this mother can't grieve for the child Jeremy Forrest has managed to alienate from her. He's left her as the mother of a stranger who hates her. And who knows if that poor girl and her family will ever be able to recover from what he's done?

And if the relationship between this woman and her daughter was already strained before he took her to France, who's to say that strain wasn't because she was being groomed and manipulated by him for over two years, encouraging her to lie to her family and abusing her? That would put a strain on anyone because he will have been doing his best to alienate her from anyone who really did care about her.

Portofino Sat 22-Jun-13 19:17:12

So very sad.

Thanks porto. That thing about the list of age of consent in the US for Duran Duran gives me the right creeps... And well said Sarah. Brainwashing is exactly the right word for what has happened to that poor girl. Sorry to hear about your daughter and eldest son

CatsAndTheirPizza Sat 22-Jun-13 19:21:55

I haven't read the full thread, but I cringed when I read it - I think it was very unfortunately worded. It did make me wonder about their relationship originally, if I'm honest, but they are probably just the words of a desperate mother.

flippinada Sat 22-Jun-13 19:29:49

I was the same Cats on first reading too.
I do think that a lot of people don't "get" the concept of grooming. I suppose the adult equivalent would be someone who begins a relationship with someone who turns out to be an abuser. And it's hard enough for adults to get past the mindfuck that is abuse, so for a vulnerable young person....

flippinada Sat 22-Jun-13 19:31:44

Sarah what a thoughtful post. I'm so sorry for your loss.

bico Sat 22-Jun-13 19:37:07

Maybe someone could explain but I don't understand why is the mother deemed to be the victim here?

flippinada Sat 22-Jun-13 19:40:52

Well, the original post was in response to her victim impact statement which I think was put before the court on Friday.

BOF Sat 22-Jun-13 19:45:06

I think that the girl's family are quite clearly victims. The girl herself is still in his thrall, and lied under oath for him, as the judge concluded in his summing up.

Thymeout Sat 22-Jun-13 19:47:09

I imagine that the prime victim, the girl, doesn't want to make a victim statement because she doesn't see herself as such.

In his summing up, the judge spoke about the effect of the crime on the family, in which context the mother is entitled to make her own victim statement. I think it comes across as rather self-absorbed because she can only speak for herself and how she has been affected.

It would obviously have been better if there had been some appeal for reconciliation or reaching out to her daughter, but that may have been considered outside the remit.

cosydressinggown Sat 22-Jun-13 19:47:37

What he did is completely and utterly wrong - full stop. No blame on the victim whatsoever - she did not break any laws, he did, end of.

However, I felt very surprised and sad that the mother chose to use those words. Did she think about how her daughter might feel when she heard her mother say she was dead? If she really ever wants to repair her relationship with her daughter that seems a very, very odd thing to do. To be honest, it makes me think that the mother may have been part of the reason why this girl was vulnerable enough to be taken in by a lechy teacher in the first place. It also does sound like anger at the child, rather than directed at the perpetrator.

CatsAndTheirPizza Sat 22-Jun-13 19:50:48

My friend described it as a bit 'I can't eat that, it's been on the floor'. Taken at face value, it is quite rejecting of her - she is still her daughter, and needs her more than ever.

MrsDeVere Sat 22-Jun-13 19:50:56

That statement does not look 'me, me, me' to me.
It does not look like the mother is rejecting her daughter
I really do not understand what the issue is with it.

It sounds like a perfectly normal reaction to an awful situation.

I can't help thinking this is just and extension of victim blaming. Looking around for a woman to criticise.

What was she supposed to say? Why the assumption that it is her fault her relationship with her daughter is fractured now?

I have read all the posts, I have thought about them, I have looked at the statement, thought about all the bits and pieces I have heard over the last few days,

and I still cannot for the life of me understand why this mother is coming in for this criticism.

bico Sat 22-Jun-13 19:53:38

flippinada it wasn't the girl's impact statement issued on Friday, it was her mother's; hence my question. It seems very personal to the mother and very selfish. I cannot see how this statement would help heal her relationship with her daughter, in fact I imagine it can only make it worse. It has no relevance to the proceedings since legally the mother is not the victim here.

scottishmummy Sat 22-Jun-13 19:55:06

I'm sad to see an extension of victim blaming,the adolescent and now her mother
I think if one of you read this with some empathy you'd maybe be less harsh
I see some if you cannot grasp Forrest groomed vulnerable girl,distancing her from family.

flippinada Sat 22-Jun-13 19:55:12

Yes, I know it was the mother's victim impact statement and not the girls, so I'm a bit puzzled you would think otherwise!

BOF Sat 22-Jun-13 19:57:02

I agree, MrsDV- it's like some people want to blame her mother. Hell, she blames herself enough: let's not do that to her.

Portofino Sat 22-Jun-13 19:58:27

She was a teenager, her family had issues, her parents separated. That, on its own is enough to cause trauma to a 13/14 yo. Right at this particular time, the twat chose to groom her for a sexual relationship. He abused his position so horrendously I makes me spit. She has now gone all Romeo and Juliet from what I can see and blames her mother for this, when if he had done his job correctly, this never would have happened.

MrsDeVere Sat 22-Jun-13 20:00:13

The girl doesn't see herself as a victim, she thinks she is too blame for her beloved being sent to jail.
She is hardly going to make a statement is she?

I thought it was common for family members to make statements in abuse cases?

Still not getting the problem.

What do people think she should have said then?

bico Sat 22-Jun-13 20:00:54

Why does she need to say anything like this in public? I really don't understand how it will help her relationship with her daughter. Her daughter is 16. If she was 25-30 she may have the self awareness to read the statement and understand the devastating effect this has had on the family. At 16 I would be amazed if she has the maturity to think of others above herself.

flippinada Sat 22-Jun-13 20:01:00

I would presume she was either asked to give one or told she had to give one - I don't know much about the law. The girl isn't going to give one because she doesn't consider herself to be a victim, even though she is.

Like I said before unless you have been in this kind of situation, I don't think you can criticise. No doubt it's comforting to think that's will never happen to me or mine but there are no guarantees in life. Predators like JF are extremely manipulative and cunning.

SarahAndFuck Sat 22-Jun-13 20:04:35

The police do ask for victim statements from other members of the family though, if the crime has affected them in any way.

They took one from me when DH's sat-nav was stolen, because I asked them how likely it would be that they followed the option for 'home' and burgled us as well. Apparently that was enough to prove I was a victim because it affected my peace of mind. And that was just a gadget from a car.

I would be destroyed if this happened to my child, for his sake and for mine. And if I had been tricked by the abuser into taking his side against my child then I would find it very hard to forgive myself.

The mother and the wider family are victims of Jeremy Forrest. Maybe not in the same way as the young girl he has abused, but they wouldn't be human if they weren't badly effected by what he did to her.

It's why counselling services are offered to families as well as victims, because something like this effects everyone.

And the girl in question might not have wanted to give a victim statement, so the best they could do is read out her mothers instead.

flippinada Sat 22-Jun-13 20:05:37

I suspect the mum would get pulled to bits no matter what she said. Poor woman.

HokeyCokeyPigInAPokey Sat 22-Jun-13 20:05:46

I haven't read the whole thread but really...

Whilst I'm not advocating what that knob did was right what so ever, surely the girl has to take some of the blame?

hmm really.

A child has to take responsibility for being groomed and abused, i mean really???

flippinada Sat 22-Jun-13 20:07:18

Thanks for clarifying Sarah.

bico Sat 22-Jun-13 20:08:32

I appreciate that the police will have asked for it and that the mother consented to it being read out. I just really don't understand why. How would this help the mother and daughter to rebuild their relationship. It is all about how the mother feels about herself and how she thinks she failed as a mother. How does that make a 16 year old react?

SarahAndFuck Sat 22-Jun-13 20:09:22

And thanks flippinada and everyone else for your kind words.

TeamSouthfields Sat 22-Jun-13 20:11:55

I thought it was a terrible thing to say !!!

HokeyCokeyPigInAPokey Sat 22-Jun-13 20:13:38

Now i have read the thread BOF has hit the nail on the head with her post, i totally agree.

CatsAndTheirPizza Sat 22-Jun-13 20:17:51

MrsDeVere 'That statement does not look 'me, me, me' to me.
It does not look like the mother is rejecting her daughter' really? You don't think the daughter would feel rejected by that statement? I think a lot of 16 year olds would feel pretty rejected if a bad mistake they made caused their mother to say they were dead to them. I don't think it is the mother's 'fault' - I think she is in pieces, but I think it was badly worded.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Sat 22-Jun-13 20:21:01

I saw that headline whilst shopping today but knowing the tabloid you've read it in who knows what the mother actually said. Why does anybody read that crap? confused

BOF Sat 22-Jun-13 20:23:40

But she didn't say her daughter was dead to her confused. She said that the girl she was before all this is never coming back.

SarahAndFuck Sat 22-Jun-13 20:24:02

She has not said "my daughter is dead to me" in that statement.

People are making that up in their own heads and putting the wrong words into her mouth.

She has said "The daughter I know is dead" and I bet a lot of people who have a family member undergo a dramatic personality change for whatever reason have said the same and felt the same.

BOF Sat 22-Jun-13 20:24:30

LyingWitch, the whole thing is posted earlier in the thread.

AnyaKnowIt Sat 22-Jun-13 20:25:11

The mother said "I feel the [daughter] I knew is dead and it upsets me beyond words. I feel completely useless most of the time. I feel like I have failed as a parent as I cannot understand how someone could do this to my child and I had no idea

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Sat 22-Jun-13 20:29:49

BOF, thank you, I saw. I wonder though how many will never get past the headlines printed in these vile papers? Why can't the true facts be printed without this need to sensationalise? I'm really disgusted by the abuse of 'freedom of the press' in this country.

flippinada Sat 22-Jun-13 20:33:51

The victim impact statement has been quoted widely in broadsheets and other news media - not just tabloids.

flippinada Sat 22-Jun-13 20:35:24

I agree that the tabloid coverage of this event (for want of a better word) leaves a lot to be desired, but then doesn't it always.

sheisaba Sat 22-Jun-13 20:40:42

Of course the mother is a victim. The victim statement has to be an expression of the impact on her not the daughter. Goodness I am surprised at the lack of empathy for the poor woman. It is not a press statement it is a court statement and the only chance that victims have in directly affecting the sentence. Whatever she does the mother is in the wrong in the daughters eyes but she needed to write a strong statement in order to get him sentenced for as long as possible.

She made a horrible mistake and was deceived by this man, am sure she will be torturing herself over it for the rest of her life.

MrsCampbellBlack Sat 22-Jun-13 20:43:08

I totally fail to see why the mother is being criticised. She was asked to give a statement and did so, and she didn't spare herself either in my opinion.

I suspect she gave it to ensure he got a sensible sentence not just to upset her daughter.

And her mother is a victim too, the whole family are.

MrsDeVere Sat 22-Jun-13 20:47:18

cats the mother has NOT said her child is dead to her FFS.

That is a total misreading of what she said.

The daughter I know is dead.
Her daughter has been changed beyond recognition by a this bastard. Her daughter is besotted with an abuser to the extent that she mouths 'I'm sorry' to HIM as he is led away.
Her little girl has gone.
He took her away from her family.

You have to really want to read that as 'my child is dead to me' to interpret it that way.

MrsCampbellBlack Sat 22-Jun-13 20:50:20

Quite MrsDV. Quite.

MrsDeVere Sat 22-Jun-13 20:50:36

Some very good points here.
This is not a press release, it is an impact statement.
The mother is likely to want the arse to get a long sentence and her statement is going to reflect that.

So perhaps the because she loves her daughter she is willing to sacrifice her relationship with her in order to get this bastard sent down for as long as possible.

Her standing up and saying 'well I was a bit upset but my daughter seems none the worse for it all' is hardly going to do the job is it? hmm

nkf Sat 22-Jun-13 20:51:12

This is not about blame. He broke the law. The police arrested him. The courts tried him and the jury found him guilty. If she went willingly, that is neither here nor there.

bico Sat 22-Jun-13 20:51:53

I imagine there is a background to all of this that none of us know anything about. If I were ever in a situation where something so devastating happened to my child I my first last and only priority would be the welfare of that child, irrespective of how much I felt hurt personally.

I'm not criticising the mother I just am not sure how this statement will help her to reconnect with her daughter. However I'm not a trained counsellor so maybe she has been given guidance and this will help in a way that isn't apparent to those of us who aren't experienced in rebuilding family relationships.

As things stand at present I'm waiting for the Sunday tabloids in about 3 years time interviewing the daughter and this teacher about their new life together. sad

nkf Sat 22-Jun-13 20:52:52

Actually, I'm totally wrong. He admitted it. The rest still stands. The rest is speculation. He was 100% in the wrong.

MrsCampbellBlack Sat 22-Jun-13 20:53:39

Bico - its not about the mother talking to her daughter though. It was for the court and would impact on the sentence.

MrsCampbellBlack Sat 22-Jun-13 20:55:41
sheisaba Sat 22-Jun-13 20:56:19

but what if she didn't write a strong statement and he was out in a few weeks? Then her daughter would most definitely go off with him. At least now the poor girl will have a chance to grow up and have enough space to hopefully get the help she needs.

If I thought that my child would be lost forever I would do everything I needed to save her. This is an impossible choice sad

flippinada Sat 22-Jun-13 20:58:32

That's a very good point MrsDV, I hadn't thought of it that way. It may be that she felt as she's "lost" her daughter already then at least she can impact on the sentence in some way.. I think the statement will have been one of the factors taken into account when sentencing.

bico Sat 22-Jun-13 20:59:34

Is there an option for the victim impact statement to be kept confidential, ie not read out in court but still provided to the prosecution, defence and judge?

flippinada Sat 22-Jun-13 21:01:25

X posts, clearly it is. And thank you for the link MrsCampbellBlack that explains it very concisely.

MrsCampbellBlack Sat 22-Jun-13 21:01:36

I don't know Bico. But honestly, I can understand her daughter being angry with her because of the grooming/manipulation but what I do not get is how people on here can read her statement and condemn her.

bico Sat 22-Jun-13 21:03:47

I'm just thinking of the future. At the moment there doesn't seem anything left to be rebuilt.

MrsCampbellBlack Sat 22-Jun-13 21:08:14

Well, as has been mentioned before if not on this thread on others on this subject. At the moment the victim may not see herself as one, but give her time, in 10 years time she may look back on what happened in a very different way.

And at that point, she will hopefully realise that her mother was trying to do the best for her by ensuring he was kept away from her daughter for as long as possible.

MrsCampbellBlack Sat 22-Jun-13 21:09:15

God - I totally did not make sense then. Sorry. Meant to say there have been many threads on this subject and some people have said how similar things happened to them. At thte time they didn't think they were victims but now they realise they were.

MrsDeVere Sat 22-Jun-13 21:25:16

I just deleted what I had written then I realised this was AIBU and it would stick around for ever.
Anyway.
I wish my DM (or DF for that matter) had said something, then or since.

Hopefully this young woman will look back on her DM's statement in a few years time and see the anguish caused by love behind it.
Better that than silence and denial.

gobbynorthernbird Sat 22-Jun-13 21:30:33

Apart from the fact that this statement was for the court (rather than a direct statement to her daughter), maybe the mother is playing the long game. The child thinks she is in love, and sees her mother as the bad guy. It's possible that the mother thinks that she is damned either way and this statement may be looked at in a couple of years, once the infatuation has worn off (or the child gets too old for him to be interested), and the poor girl will have some understanding of what this has done to her family and how much they care about her.

runningforthebusinheels Sat 22-Jun-13 23:46:38

What sheisaba said at 20:40.

The mother is a victim in this too. Her daughter was groomed by this predator from the age of 14 - part of the grooming process is highly likely to have involved isolating the daughter from her family and any other friends/support networks. To exploit her vulnerability, and make her think that he is the only one who loves, understands and cares about her.

She was deceived herself by Forrest who lied to her face that her daughter was stalking him and threatening his career. Driving a further wedge between mother and daughter - because they argued about what he had said.

She then spent 8 days last year not knowing if her daughter was alive or dead.

They are both victims of Jeremy Forrest's predatory behaviour.

sashh Sun 23-Jun-13 07:10:43

Alreadytaken - Where is the mother now when the daughter needs her? I think the mother needs to get her mind off herself and on to how it might feel for the daughter. It would appear that the poor girl has been abandoned just because she's upset and all over the place, and this could be damaging for the girl.

Desperately hoping her daughter will talk to her at some time in the future.

Daughter is living with step father. Her own father thinks there is nothing wrong with the relationship and has been quoted as saying he would be happy to walk her down the isle if she wants to marry him.

The poor mother has lived through the nightmare of a missing child, followed by the nightmare of a child who cannot see they have been abused and to further the torture the people who are around her daughter (father, step father, Forrest's family) are agreeing with her and telling her she has not been abused, it is a love story, all her mother's fault etc etc.

I know this is not the same as a child dieing, nothing compares to that and I cannot imagine what it was like for those of you who experienced it.

But that doesn't stop me having sympathy for the mother.

runningforthebusinheels Sun 23-Jun-13 08:36:39

Yes, sashh. She's lost her daughter to a predatory man, in a position of power over her, and who has deceived and/or manipulated everyone around them, by wrapping his grooming of an underage teenager as a 'love story.'

The father is doing his daughter no favours at all by endorsing a marriage between them - and obviously lacks understanding about the nature of grooming, and of the power imbalance of teacher/pupil relationships.

I think back to the other thread where a poster was in the same position as the schoolgirl (but without the fleeing to France and publicity). She did stay with said teacher for years in a relationship, because she felt she'd given up so much, and caused so much trouble within her own family, to be with him. But as she matured she realised this wasn't the relationship she thought it was.

I think, sadly, that similar will happen here. Forrest doesn't love her - he loves the power over her, and the adulation she gives him. If he loved her he would never have run away to France with her and separated her from her family. He would never have made her stand up in court and lie for him.

gordyslovesheep Sun 23-Jun-13 09:00:19

Nooby you are NOT her

MrsDV - I do think you are wonderful x

OP - I don't find her statement shocking - he robbed her of her relationship with her daughter - she protected her and now she is hated by her - horribly sad IMHO

Frenchvanilla Sun 23-Jun-13 09:21:21

I agree with Sash.

And from his recent comments today, the bio father sounds awful, and Forrest's family even worse.

They're minimising and justifying his actions. They even blame the ex wife, ffs. Imagine if they were your ex in laws!

alreadytaken Sun 23-Jun-13 09:23:05

sashh this was a victim statement - a statement for the court about the impact of the crime on the mother. So of course it was about how a sexual predator had damaged the mother's relationship with her daughter and how that made her feel. The mother's relationship with the child will not be rebuilt while the child is still being groomed and lied to by the predator.

At the moment the child thinks this is love. When she eventually realises that if this man loved her he would have waited until she was an adult she will hopefully rebuild her relationship with her mother. As for the father saying he sees nothing wrong in them being together - that sort of attitude goes some way to explaining why the parents aren't still together.

Lazyjaney Sun 23-Jun-13 09:46:15

"So perhaps the because she loves her daughter she is willing to sacrifice her relationship with her in order to get this bastard sent down for as long as possible"

And what was she doing while her daughter was seeing this bastard before they ran away. I think the girl was majorly let down by her parents.

flippinada Sun 23-Jun-13 10:28:14

So the father, who has had nothing to do with her upbringing, is the third party who has been acting as go between - is that the implication.

God. Poor girl.

Frenchvanilla Sun 23-Jun-13 10:34:37

Nooo- the father as the go between? God, I really don't want it to be true.

It is coming across like the parent she's really been let down by is her dad.

edam Sun 23-Jun-13 10:35:22

Lazy - apparently she was calling the teacher, trying to find out whether it was true, and the lying hound lied to her.

Why are people so keen to blame the mother, rather than a. the abuser b. the school (that has had two other cases of child abuse including allowing the chair of governors to stay on even after he'd been charged), c. if you must blame a relative, Forrest's family who are 'standing by him' <puke>?

flippinada Sun 23-Jun-13 10:41:30

Apparently he's all over the gutter press this morning saying he'd be happy to walk her down the aisle.

I also read that Forrest's parents have allowed the letter she wrote to them to be published.

If true this is absolutely sickening.

flippinada Sun 23-Jun-13 10:41:50

He being the girl's father.

Heartbrokenmum73 Sun 23-Jun-13 10:51:43

Some sickening things being said on this thread.

JF is blatantly 'into' early to mid-teen girls, as evidenced by his earlier attempts at grooming other 13 year-olds. My concern for the poor girl left behind at this point is that by the time he's released from prison she will already be too old for his tastes. I hope she gets counselling (at the very least) and learns to move on from him while he serves his pathetically short sentence.

Also worryingly is that he's not going to change. He will (most likely) never have that position of authority again, but he will find ways (don't they always?) of worming his way into the affections of some vulnerable young girl somewhere down the line. His family support him? Her father supports him? His choices and decisions are being, and probably will continue to be, validated. Scary.

As for the Mother's statement. I read it above. At no point does she come across as saying her daughter is dead to her. She's obviously mourning the loss of her daughters innocence, the trusting, close relationship they once had. She feels helpless and guilty. She obviously loves her daughter fiercely. How are people missing this?

And as for the whole 'two to tango' thing. Sick, sick, sick. Victim blaming at its worst. Disgraceful.

thebody Sun 23-Jun-13 10:56:11

Heartbroken, yes totally agree and well put.

sashh Sun 23-Jun-13 11:08:05

And what was she doing while her daughter was seeing this bastard before they ran away.

Bollocking her daughter for spreading rumours. That's what Forrest told her mother, he was doing nothing wrong, her daughter was attention seeking.

Oh and calling the police when she heard a rumour there were pictures of Forrest on her daughter's phone.

flippinada Sun 23-Jun-13 11:22:22

Yes, lets not forget that her mum spoke to JF and he denied the rumours and said her daughter was a liar and a trouble maker!

Some posters have found a JF Facebook fan page that has been set up by his sister and apparently they are friends with the girl on FB angry

I don't know how his family can dare to behave in the way they are. It would certainly explain a lot..

sashh Sun 23-Jun-13 12:18:49

IS the girl too old for social services involvement? I assumed they would have been involved when she first returned to the UK, but maybe I'm being naive.

runningforthebusinheels Sun 23-Jun-13 12:28:27

Erm - I know she's nearly at the age of consent and everything, but surely, surely it's not ok that she is able to be contacted by her abuser from his prison cell??

Sounds like her own father and his family are all complicit in the grooming now confused Awful, awful situation. I do think ss should be involved.

Moxiegirl Sun 23-Jun-13 12:28:57

Ss got involved with my 15yo in similar circumstances because I asked them to.

SinisterBuggyMonth Sun 23-Jun-13 12:38:20

Yanbu I read that and was shocked. That kind of statement wont exactly build any bridges with her daughter.

SarahAndFuck Sun 23-Jun-13 12:40:22

It's shocking to me how many people close to her are supporting his abuse of her.

Her mother seems to be the only person close to her who wants to protect her.

I hope the girl is getting professional counselling and support.

I can almost understand his family. He seems to be a plausible liar, if he managed to convince even his victim's mother that his victim was the one to blame. His family would want to believe it was a love-story rather than abuse. And nobody would want to think that their child, brother, etc, was capable of this. I think it's quite common for people to react like this, because they just don't want to believe it of someone they love.

But it's still not good enough and I'm not making excuses for them. Their ages, his marriage, his position as her teacher, the other allegations that he tried to groom other girls, so much to weigh against him.

I pity this woman and her daughter. She has lost her daughter for now, possibly forever, because her daughter hates her and wants nothing to do with her.

And the daughter either has a lifetime of abuse at his hands still to come, while the people who are supposed to care about her support him and allow him to continue it. Or she has a terrible realisation that she is a victim who has surrounded herself with abuse-enablers and cut herself off from the one person who wants to protect her.

It's a terrible situation and I hope it's one that I never find myself and my child in. It must be a living nightmare.

flippinada Sun 23-Jun-13 12:41:59

I've seen the FB group and reported it as, if genuine, it appears that they are soliciting young girls to write to him in jail - not only that but they've put his parents address on there!

Words really fail me. What is wrong with these people?

flippinada Sun 23-Jun-13 12:43:12

"It's a terrible situation and I hope it's one that I never find myself and my child in. It must be a living nightmare."

I know Sarah. The whole thing is just awful sad

Onesleeptillwembley Sun 23-Jun-13 13:01:00

I've also reported the page - disgusting.

Frenchvanilla Sun 23-Jun-13 13:05:02

I just checked. His sister is friends with the girl on Facebook. His sister has also posted a few things prominently in support of Jeremy.

This family are vile apologists.

SarahAndFuck Sun 23-Jun-13 13:08:59

flippinada - "it appears that they are soliciting young girls to write to him in jail - not only that but they've put his parents address on there!"

Why would they do that? Unbelievable! Is that not something that the police could look into as well? Surely that must count as grooming or something as well?

And it is really awful. I remember when someone I used to work with came to work in bits, because their teenager had started using drugs and their personality had just changed overnight.

They had become involved with someone who was also using drugs and started to use them as well. My colleague had been arrested and held in a cell because they made an accusation of assault. Colleague had tried to grab their teenager by the arm in desperation and accidentally scratched them. Colleague said it was like a stranger standing in front of them, not the child they had always known before the drugs.

It scares me to think DS could change so rapidly, for any reason, drugs, abuse or anything else, and nothing I did to try and protect or help him would get through to him.

And it would destroy me to think other people were supporting him and telling him that everything was fine and lovely.

I really can understand why this mother feels the child she knew has died, because she really has been left with a stranger who hates her and has no idea if that will ever change.

MatersMate Sun 23-Jun-13 13:12:15

It's heartbreak ing that the only person who is seeing this for what it is, is her mum, and she's turned against her. On top of that the poor woman is getting her words pulled apart left and right, what an awful situation.

Unfortunately, there seem to be plenty of adults in both families willing to normalize this, so the poor child will think her mum's obviously wrong as she's in the minority.

flippinada Sun 23-Jun-13 13:15:11

Sarah indeed they are - horrifying isn't it? I've taken a screenshot of the page and reported it to Sussex Police.

SarahAndFuck Sun 23-Jun-13 13:19:05

flippinada - good for you. I hope they can do something to get the page taken down and stop any more from being set up.

flippinada Sun 23-Jun-13 13:22:52

I think I would feel the same if this happened to my child Sarah. Your poor colleague. My heart goes out to this woman, it really does.

cornyblend37 Sun 23-Jun-13 15:03:43

In the DM today his family are attempting to blame his wife for his actions and also the school. Incredible.

expatinscotland Mon 24-Jun-13 00:52:21

Like all paedos he is a clever, manipulative liar.

And that's why he is surrounded by sycophants and apologists for his abuse, grooming and rape.

Disgusting!

chipmonkey Mon 24-Jun-13 01:20:09

I am shocked at her poor excuse for a biological father. Any decent father would want to kick the guy to kingdom come.

Onesleeptillwembley Mon 24-Jun-13 07:55:51

Wonder if anything has changed in prison now the extent of his grooming is common knowledge?

alreadytaken Mon 24-Jun-13 08:39:02

heartbrokenmum73 flowers for saying what I would have liked to say but I couldn't find the right words.

Of course if this was your son or brother you'd want to believe it was a love story but even then you should say that what he did was wrong. If he loved the girl he'd have moved schools so he wasn't in a position of trust and authority in relation to her and he'd kept his hands off her until she was older.

The mother is the only person close to the girl coming out of this with any credit, she was failed by her father and her school.

THERhubarb Mon 24-Jun-13 10:05:37

You know, when I was studying criminology I was shocked to discover that most paedophiles have absolutely no sense that what they are doing is wrong. This is what makes them so dangerous. They believe that abuse, especially sexual, is another way of showing their love to a child.

I read scores of interviews with jailed paedophiles in which they compared themselves to homosexuals, saying that one day they too, will be accepted by society and what they do will no longer be a crime.

At the time I was horrified and deeply disturbed by their attitude. Reading this thread is more horrifying because now I understand why they don't think that what they are doing is wrong. Because there are so many people willing to turn a blind eye, to blame the child (especially if that child is a girl) and to excuse their behaviour.

It seems that some sections of society already accept some forms of paedophila as normal. In fact there are cultures in which it is perfectly acceptable, where children have few rights and where girls are mere commodities.

Let's be very clear about this. Mr Forrest was grooming not just this child but other children from the ages of 13. These are children who are only a year into secondary school, who are still finding their feet.

He actively pursued a relationship with these young girls and in this particular one he struck gold, because she was also quite vulnerable and had a childish crush on him, which must have been quite evident. He sent her letters, took her out, gave her gifts, wrote her songs - in short he did everything to seduce her.

Yet, even after reading all of that, even after knowing all the facts of the case there are still posters who make excuses for him. In their heads, despite everything they hear to the contrary, he was the one led astray by this 'wild child' and it was she who put him up to everything.

And who assisted this teacher in his advances? Other men. Even her own father. She has been treated like a commodity, sold to the highest bidder. That she was exploited, targeted, abused makes no difference because his right to love and lust trumps her right to innocence and a childhood.

According to recent figures by the NSPCC 1 in every 3 girls will be exposed to some sort of sexual abuse. Online grooming is everywhere and I recently investigated Habbo Hotel as research for an article I wrote about security on children's sites. I posed as a 12 year old girl. I was asked for my facebook account, for my skype details and told by one that he wanted to make love to me. That was within 10 minutes of first signing up for an account.

My own dd is 12. She will be 13 in July. I fear for her more than ever because of peoples attitudes towards young girls. Apparently if her teacher started grooming her now and she ran away with him when she turned 15, that would be ok according to some on here.

It's a disgusting attitude but it makes me understand now why those paedophiles who were interviewed said what they did. Why they thought it was acceptable behaviour. I never thought that anyone would blame a child for the actions of a grown man until I came across this thread. I am still struggling to understand that thought process but it has made me realise that even in this educated society, a very outdated attitude exists still which is probably more threatening to our children than the paedos themselves. The attitude that young girls are the seducers and the men, mere innocent victims.

It's the attitude the Taliban have and it's why women are dressed from head to toe lest the sight of them causes a man to sin. It's why some children are cast out as witches. It's why young girls who are abducted from Nepal and are forced to work in the sex industry in Nepal are never allowed back into their families or communities if they are rescued; it's why girls are killed in 'honour killings'. It's an attitude as old as Adam and Eve. That girls and women are sent to tempt men.

It's an attitude that makes me want to keep my dd close to me and to never let her go.

sashh Mon 24-Jun-13 10:30:07

THERhubarb

Very well written, and I agree with every point.

BarbarianMum Mon 24-Jun-13 10:36:14

Excellent post TheRhubarb

In fact, I'm going to print it out and hand it to my sister who is one of the 'she knew what she was doing' parade shock. Wish I'd had it to hand during that argument discussion!

Excellent Post TheRhubarb.

CatsAndTheirPizza Mon 24-Jun-13 10:52:18

Ditto. Horrified by your experiences of posing as a child on-line too.

flippinada Mon 24-Jun-13 11:22:46

Yes, what a fantastic post. Thanks Rhubarb

5madthings Mon 24-Jun-13 11:26:58

Brilliant post rhubarb and one that should be read by some on another thread (now full) who are saying the girl needs to take some responsibility...

I despair of victim blaming and it is so widespread in society sad

LittlePeaPod Mon 24-Jun-13 11:34:47

THERhubarb thank you. Thank you so much for your post. It's music to my ears. I have just been on a different thread were adults/parents were making excuses and I was/am struggling to understand why... You post is both enlightened and completely right! Thank you again..

THERhubarb Mon 24-Jun-13 11:45:26

No matter how true the words, unfortunately this notion of women and girls as seductresses is so ingrained in our society and has been for thousands of years, that the chance of changing attitudes now is a lost cause.

These words will fall on the deaf ears of people who have closed their minds to anything which challenges their pre-conceived ideas.

flippinada Mon 24-Jun-13 11:56:58

Yes you are probably correct (sadly) but still, thank you for saying it.

Dawndonna Mon 24-Jun-13 15:16:06

Well said Therhubarb

working9while5 Mon 24-Jun-13 18:46:08

When I was at school, a teacher abducted his preschool daughter aided by a student from our school. Due to the guards in Ireland not realising the danger he posed, he sadly was given time to murder her and himself when he was found out. He had kept her in captivity for two years.

The rage at the ex-student was huge - but he had been in a "relationship" with her since she too was a young girl hmm. The misogyny of his actions was not as reviled as her part in keeping his secret.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 24-Jun-13 19:57:47

Rhubarb - excellent post. Her mother is clearly heartbroken, yet, along with his ex-wife, is being blamed for this. I find it sickening.

Whatever the circumstances, if a woman can possibly be held responsible, she will be. Ian Huntley's mother held Maxine Carr responsible for the Soham murders - because if she'd 'given him what he wanted at home' he wouldn't need to seek gratification elsewhere. Whilst most sane people would disregard that as madness (after all, she wasn't even there) and accept that she was coerced into giving him a false alibi - it didn't stop the masses baying for her blood as much as his.

I do believe the school bears some responsibility in Forrest's case, however. But not the victim, and not her mother and not Forrest's wife.

bottleofbeer Mon 24-Jun-13 20:58:56

A close family member on my sister's ex's side started a relationship with a 13 year old when he was in his late 20's.

They got married a few years ago and have a child. It's hailed as a wonderful love story overcoming small minded prejudices. Seriously. All the naysayers were wrong because look at them now!

I personally think it's disgusting and married or not it will never change the fact he was a grown man sleeping with a 13 year old girl.

And he's a bloody youth worker.

flippinada Mon 24-Jun-13 21:11:41

Having read through a variety of news media today I really feel thoroughly disheartened and wondering if views like mine (and others on this thread and elsewhere on MN) are in the minority.

There was report in the Guardian highlighting that the press needs to be careful how they report these stories (which also contains some very sad details about the girls home life) but it's like a voice in the wilderness, if you get what I mean...and they've published a story from a girl who had an affair with her teacher so what's wrong with this. Awful.

working what a horrific story. It's frightening, truly frightening how ready people are to collude with and minimise abuse.

edam Mon 24-Jun-13 21:31:27

Rhubarb, I know how depressing it is to see such horrible prejudices played out yet again, but we do need to keep on challenging them. Don't give up! Just a couple of decades ago, the idea of rape within marriage was regarded as an absurdity - now it's rightly recognised as a crime. Things can change.

My Mother shocked me recently by mentioning that when she was a young woman, the hospital wanted my father's consent before they performed a D&C after a miscarriage. shock This was the 1970s, not the dark ages. Doctors also demanded his consent before fitting a coil, because married men were entitled to have children.

(She refused to get my Dad to sign the consent form, causing a huge row with the doctors both times. She won, but had to threaten to sue them. She says my Dad was just as horrified as she was.)

flippinada Mon 24-Jun-13 21:42:23

That's no time at all really; I was born in the early 70s.

Anyway thanks edam sorry to sound defeatist , it's just so bloody frustrating!

notanyanymore Tue 25-Jun-13 00:02:31

X post rhubarb.
Edam - weirdly enough my sister had to sign for her husband to get the snip before they would proceed??? Then, she was told she wasn't allowed any contraceptive devices to help with insanely heavy periods as her husband had had the snip! All seemed very odd to me! I told her to tell them she was having an affair. Funnily enough when she went back and saw a female Dr she didn't have to stoop that low!

Lazyjaney Tue 25-Jun-13 07:15:05

"According to recent figures by the NSPCC 1 in every 3 girls will be exposed to some sort of sexual abuse."

I just don't believe it. Oddly enough that number goes up every time a self serving charity re-looks at it.

I'd be interested to see what they define as abuse as well.

THERhubarb Tue 25-Jun-13 08:55:11

Lazyjaney of course you don't believe it. Of course these figures are just plucked out of the air by charities to serve their own purposes, I mean it's not like they'll be asked to produce evidence of those stats is it?

The NSPCC stats, studies, research and other figures including the sources, how many children were involved in the studies, what kind of abuse they are talking about, etc. Some of the figures are recorded crime figures like this one:

17,186 sexual crimes were recorded in England and Wales in 2011/2012 against children under 16. That does not include Scotland and of course these are just the crimes reported. I suppose those figures are made up too?

Do you want a break down of what kind of sexual abuse that constituted? Here you go:

4,991 offences of rape of a female child under 16

889 offences of rape of a male child under 16

3,986 offences of sexual assault on a female child under 13

1,010 offences of sexual assault on a male child under 13

5,779 offences of sexual activity involving a child under 16

160 offences of abuse of children through prostitution and pornography

371 offences of sexual grooming.

1 in 3 teenage girls are subjected to sexual abuse by their boyfriends

Other figures show that 1 in 3 reported rapes is against a child under the age of 16.
48% of young men don't think it's rape to have sex with a girl too drunk to give consent and more than 67% would carry on having sex with a girl even if she was crying.

Those figures are from studies which are published by the NSPCC here and which discuss the law, what the role the NSPCC plays, future projects and the impact of things like pornography on relationships.

Of course Lazyjaney I don't expect you to accept any of these figures or the studies which have been done. Many people would prefer to bury their heads in the sand than admit that there is a huge problem. Most hope it will just go away of its own accord and they resent charities like the NSPCC for highlighting these issues, even accusing the charities of making up the research in order to gain more funding - even though the research has been documented and witnessed and is backed up by official crime records.

It's this flat denial which puts young girls in danger because who can they turn to? Who will believe them? No wonder 34% of children abused by an adult don't tell anyone.

noddyholder Tue 25-Jun-13 08:57:18

Lazey Rhubarb is right look at her posts they are full of teh information you need to make you and others like you 'believe'. Amongst my closest friend I can't think of one of us who hasn't had an inappropriate sexual advance at least once in our lives and several of us younger than 16

THERhubarb Tue 25-Jun-13 09:03:16

One thing worth highlighting is that those official crime figures are just the crimes recorded IN ONE YEAR.

And yes LazyJaney you would be right when you say that those figures seem to rise. That's because they are rising. Whether that is through more children willing to report or because there are just more cases of sexual abuse we'll never know, but the sexual exploitation of children is prevalent, in this society and elsewhere.

I'd love to know how you can argue with clear cut figures like those.

noddyholder Tue 25-Jun-13 09:05:52

And I would love to know WHy you want to argue against them?sad

LittlePeaPod Wed 26-Jun-13 15:28:40

LazyJaney

I just don't believe it. Oddly enough that number goes up every time a self serving charity re-looks at it.

Have you considered that may be to do with the fact more children have more/better access to getting help/support?

I'd be interested to see what they define as abuse as well.

I would be interested in hearing what your definition of abuse is? What do you define as abuse LazyJaney?

Then people wonder why children are afraid to report the abuse when you have adults doubting what defines child abuse and slating charities set up to help these children..

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