Jeremy Forrest verdict - aibu to be confused?

(1000 Posts)
noddyboulder Thu 20-Jun-13 14:54:45

Yep, I don't think even his own parents could deny he's a massive, hideous scumbag with no impulse control - but how can he have been found guilty of abduction when the girl he had an affair with said it was her idea to go to France and she went willingly?

Can somebody legal shed some light?

OnIlkelyMoorBahtat Thu 20-Jun-13 14:59:36

Am not a legal bod, but I think it's because as she was under the age of 16 - the age of consent - she is not considered legally able to give consent to these circumstances. I could be wrong though!

Because she wasn't old enough to make that judgement. If my 2 yo went off with someone who offered her sweets, we would rightly say she was abducted. The line has to be somewhere and we draw it at 16. Added to the fact that he was in a position of trust and her TEACHER.

CajaDeLaMemoria Thu 20-Jun-13 15:01:33

She's a child. Therefore he was responsible.

MrsLyman Thu 20-Jun-13 15:01:46

It's because of his actions leading up to this point, he was found to have groomed her to think that this was an appropriate course of action.

diabolo Thu 20-Jun-13 15:02:04

I am also confused. Obviously he behaved totally inappropriately, but she was the one who wanted to "run away". I suppose the jury were instructed to follow the letter of the law, but it seems bizarre to me.

As soon as she is 16 and he is free, they will be together anyway.

LineRunner Thu 20-Jun-13 15:02:23

He was her teacher.

Greythorne Thu 20-Jun-13 15:05:45

I am confused that anyone is confused.

Grown ups cannot take children away to other countries with them and have sex with them.

How can you not see that is wrong?

The girl was a child.

He was her teacher.

He does not get to do what he wants even if she is OK with it.

FFS.

nethunsreject Thu 20-Jun-13 15:09:08

What Greythorne said.

Ffs people. SHe was a child, he was in a position of authority,

OnIlkelyMoorBahtat Thu 20-Jun-13 15:10:37

But we only have her word for it that it was his idea. How do we know he's not convinced her that it would be better for him that she says it's his idea?

But as Greythorne says above - it doesn't matter if she did "instigate" it, she was a child, and he was her teacher, he knew very well he should have not have been doing it, even if she did or didn't think it was a great idea.

she was the one who wanted to "run away"

The correct course of action would have been to inform the parents, inform your supervisor at work and inform the Police/SS if there was a real risk she was going. Not, amazingly, to run away with her while having sexual relations, AKA statutory rape, with a child in your care.

Also confused as to why people are confused.

sweetestcup Thu 20-Jun-13 15:19:02

In the eyes of the law shes a child - regardless of whether she wanted to run away or not, by law she is judged not to have the emotional maturity to make that decision - whats so confusing about that!

petra27 Thu 20-Jun-13 15:21:28

She wanted to run away because she thought this man was the love of her life and wanted to be with him.

She thought this because he deliberately groomed her to think so, over a long period of time, and when being paid to safeguard her welfare.

FeegleFion Thu 20-Jun-13 15:23:37

I, too, am confused that anyone is confused!

Child - someone who thinks it's romantic to run away with the handsome teacher who says he loves her.

Adult who groomed and raped a child whom he had a legal and moral obligation to protect, as a teacher; a person trusted with the responsibility of keeping the children in their care safe.

LIZS Thu 20-Jun-13 15:25:02

even if she had said "let's run away together" , he should have had the self control , professionalism and moral integrity to say no and neither encourage her feelings nor facilitate it.

RikeBider Thu 20-Jun-13 15:26:10

It doesn't matter that she "wanted to run away". As others have said, a 2 year old might be tempted away with sweets, an 8 year old might be tempted away with puppies.

At 15 she is too young to decide to leave home and go and live in France. Especially with an authority figure who has been having an inappropriate and illegal relationship with her for some time.

TroublesomeEx Thu 20-Jun-13 15:29:20

Frankly, I'm amazed anyone is confused!

He is an adult, she is a child.

Children are supposed to have daft crushes on their teachers, pop stars, actors and the like. It's all part of natural development.

Adults are supposed to behave responsibly.

I worked in SS and addictions/homelessness. Countless clients have had crushes on me. Countless. It is a normal part of the job. Things I do:

Talk to my boss
Make sure I am not ever in a compromising or vulnerable position
Have another worker with me
Try to gently help the person understand transference, normal relationships and what this means
Change the person to another worker if it is appropriate.

Things I don't do:

Have sex with them repeatedly then run away to France.

And, these are adults.

Concreteblonde Thu 20-Jun-13 15:35:16

Also confused about the confusion. Scary that you and others think this way OP.

Doyouthinktheysaurus Thu 20-Jun-13 15:35:50

I'm also quite shocked anyone is confused about this.

She's a child, he's an adult who was in a position of huge trust and responsibility, he abused that in the most despicable way!

LilacPeony Thu 20-Jun-13 15:35:57

She was threatening suicide. In that instance you contact parents/social services etc to get her the appropriate support. You don't go abroad with her and shag her, even if she says she wants this.

youmeatsix Thu 20-Jun-13 15:37:34

i think the confusion here is, he has been found guilty, of abduction
abduction is taking someone against their will, no matter who's idea it was she went willingly, its what he has been found guilty OF that is wrong/confusing

Dackyduddles Thu 20-Jun-13 15:37:59

Ah.... Not only was it the girls fault, she possibly asked for it.

She was a CHILD.

Am bemused at the odd position shown by some posters above. Do you really hold that view or just trying to provoke ?

BeauNidle Thu 20-Jun-13 15:38:36

I don't know if I am confused or not confused!

I though abduction was taking against someone's will. Which in this case, she was a willing partner. Maybe a different term would be appropriate such as absconding with a minor or somesuch.

Bobyan Thu 20-Jun-13 15:39:14

What Grey said.

Fuzzysnout Thu 20-Jun-13 15:39:16

How is anyone confused?
Would you be equally confused if your own DD was taken abroad by their teacher who had sex with them?
Would it be OK if it was your DD's idea to go abroad?

Get a grip people. There is a very good reason why it is not OK for teachers to have sex with underage pupils and if you can't understand that reason then there is something very wrong with your thinking.

It is the same as statutory rape, youmeatsix. The 15 yo might 'consent' but legally, they can't. She 'consented' to go to France but legally she can't.

flippinada Thu 20-Jun-13 15:40:44

Add me to the "confused about the confusion" lot.

It's quite straightforward. She cannot give consent because she's a child - the fact she says she wanted to go is irrelevant because she can't give consent legally.

RikeBider Thu 20-Jun-13 15:41:03

Child abduction isn't necessarily against a child's will - children will often go quite willingly with people they know and trust. Even a parent can abduct a child.

BeauNidle Thu 20-Jun-13 15:43:41

fair point Rike

RikeBider Thu 20-Jun-13 15:43:53

Lets say a neighbour tells your child they are going to Disneyland. Your child says "please can you take me too" so the neighbour gets them in the car and off they go. Your child consented, they wanted to go, they asked to go - is that abduction?

lljkk Thu 20-Jun-13 15:45:05

But he wasn't convicted of statuatory rape. confused
I could understand him being convicted of statutory rape, why he wasn't tried for that is confusing.

FeegleFion Thu 20-Jun-13 15:45:11

She is a child! She is unable to give her willing bloody consent to being abducted and sexually abused by any adult.

I do hope I've helped clear up some of the confusion. confused

StuntGirl Thu 20-Jun-13 15:45:24

What greythorne said.

Blimey, hope none of you confused lot are in positions of care for children. Who knows what illegal things you could end up doing because you were 'confused'.

NulliusInBlurba Thu 20-Jun-13 15:46:32

The judge and jury made a decision entirely in accordance with British law, but that law is certainly rather inconsistent: in this case a 15 year old is deemed a child incapable of making up her own mind, but in the Bulger case 10 year olds were tried in an adult court for murder. Either you're criminally/legally responsible or you're not at a certain age. The law absolutely needs to be changed.

There is no doubt that he was morally culpable and acted in a wicked manner - he totally abused his position of trust as a teacher, and he should have been prosecuted for that alone, as well as for having sex with a minor, and for aiding her plans to run away. But 'child abduction' is not the right crime for what he did. There should be a legal differentiation between someone who physically takes a younger child against their will and someone who, as here, abuses their status to exploit a teenager. Ultimately, though, I suppose the important thing is that he didn't get away with it without being punished.

FeegleFion Thu 20-Jun-13 15:48:06

lljkk - it could be that the girl has denied any sexual contact and refused any examination. Or it could've been down to something to do with age of consent in France.

BeauNidle Thu 20-Jun-13 15:49:35

I think he has added to his sentence just that bit more by saying 'I love you' to the girl prior to sentencing.

cantspel Thu 20-Jun-13 15:50:03

or it could be there is no such thing as statutory rape in british law.

He should also have been tried to that lljkk.

Frankly I find this debate shocking. The idea that it's OK because a child consented to sex, an appropriate relationship, running away. This man was in a Position of Trust. It is a legal framework that he would have been WELL aware of. I am because I worked in SS. He would because he works in a school.

Regardless of the sexual relationship, had he run away with her knowing her age and vulnerability, he could be prosecuted. As Rike says, abduction is frequently with the 'consent' of the child.

Greythorne Thu 20-Jun-13 15:50:43

Next time you are in a public place and spot a child, offer them sweets. Offer to take them to buy some sweets. When they willingly accept, pop them in your car and drive them away. Then see how the child's parents, the police and any sane person views your actions.

YOU CANNOT TAKE CHILDREN AWAY WITHOUT PARENTAL CONSENT. That should be so clear to everyone.

And that doesn't even address the fact that he raped her, he was in a position of authority, she was vulnerable etc. etc.

That would be *tried for that too.

FeegleFion Thu 20-Jun-13 15:53:00

Nulli - you may have a point, however you are talking about two different things.

The age of consent in this country is 16 (as we all know).

BUT he wasn't just any adult, he was her teacher. Perentis in loco.

The age of criminal culpability is 10 in England and Wales. That's not saying that the fact the offender(s) are children are ignored.

Wellwobbly Thu 20-Jun-13 15:53:19

Terrifying that there is confusion.

FFS. What part of POWER IMBALANCE is not grasped here?

Why wasn't he tried for statutory rape? Because maybe the British Police and DPA were doing a good job and ABDUCTION carries a longer sentence, which he well deserves?

Folkgirl says it all: girls are supposed to have crushes, it is developmentally appropriate.

He was SUPPOSED to respond to her flirting with grave respect, and keep her safe. Like other responsible mature, proper men: Daddies, uncles, neighbours etc etc that little girls practice clumsily on.

LIZS Thu 20-Jun-13 15:58:27

it is Child abduction. The emphasis is that a minor cannot give informed consent to begin removed from his/her home.

Fenton Thu 20-Jun-13 15:59:31

What Greythorne said, both times.

I can't believe how many people think that 'she went willingly therefore is partly to blame'

She's a child.
He's an adult, and her teacher at that.

confused

BeauNidle Thu 20-Jun-13 16:01:02

I think the confusion has actually been cleared up on this thread.

The term abduction, in the general way most of us know would be 'taking by force' and therefore we know that in actually fact she was a willing subject in this abduction. Hence the initial confusion, and understandably so. But in the eyes of the law and the legal system, we now see how they are looking at it.

BeauNidle Thu 20-Jun-13 16:01:44

Well that is how I now see it anyway.

BeauNidle Thu 20-Jun-13 16:03:37

I am not sure that people are saying she is partly to blame. I still think we look at abduction as in grabbing, blindfolding and taking away, sort of scenarios.

FreudiansSlipper Thu 20-Jun-13 16:04:30

She is a child. When I was at school we did as the teachers told us (well most of the time) it was not left to pupils to make decisions for the teachers

So she says it was her idea and what he lost sense of what is right and wrong. poor guy was just overwhelmed by her sexual advances he lost the power to think straight

and if she was threatening suicide why did he not inform a professional hmm

Bobyan Thu 20-Jun-13 16:06:28

I believe that he could only be tried for the offences upon which he was extradited, so as the age of consent is 15 in France, they couldn't bring charges against him for sex with a minor.

Which means he won't be on the sex offenders' register, which makes me wonder if the choice of France as a destination was carefully planned. Disgusting man.

BeauNidle Thu 20-Jun-13 16:07:20

The main thing is, that we all hope he get's a decent sentence, and more importantly the young girl gets immediate counselling and help over the next few months. This is not going to be easy for a child who is clearly already damaged, with her self harm and suicidal ideation. A tricky road ahead I think for her.

RikeBider Thu 20-Jun-13 16:09:33

There also isn't an "abuse of trust" type law in France so I think they weren't able to charge him for the sex with a minor. Child abduction is I guess the only thing they could secure a conviction on.

Catlike Thu 20-Jun-13 16:13:15

I believe that he could only be tried for the offences upon which he was extradited, so as the age of consent is 15 in France, they couldn't bring charges against him for sex with a minor.

Hmm no wonder they said that the relationship only became sexual after her 15th birthday hmm

Catlike Thu 20-Jun-13 16:14:36

more importantly the young girl gets immediate counselling and help over the next few months. This is not going to be easy for a child who is clearly already damaged, with her self harm and suicidal ideation. A tricky road ahead I think for her.

Yes and he is really not helping by maintaining his hold over her with that "I love you" shit. If he had any decency he'd let her move on with her life.

LIZS Thu 20-Jun-13 16:16:44

There also isn't an "abuse of trust" type law in France so I think they weren't able to charge him for the sex with a minor He wouldn't have been classed as in a position of trust . He wasn't then her teacher on a school trip , for example hmm. Horrible to perpetuate her romantic fantasies even now.

BeauNidle Thu 20-Jun-13 16:18:34
AmberSocks Thu 20-Jun-13 16:18:39

Have to say people shouldnt really throw the word rape around too freely,by law its actually not rape unless the person is under 13,then it is unlawful sex with a minor.

Obviously not much better but still!

paperlantern Thu 20-Jun-13 16:19:08

He doesn't have any decency, if he had he wouldn't have done it in the first place

AmberSocks Thu 20-Jun-13 16:20:40

the thing is there are lots of people who i have met in real life where the girl was 15/16 and the man was older (like 20s/30s)and they are still together,to me its bad because of his position as a teacher,not really becase of the age thing.My own mum and dad were 15 and 25 when they met and started seeing each other.

Remotecontrolduck Thu 20-Jun-13 16:25:31

It's the teacher thing that bothers me too, not necessarily a big age gap. Though as she was only 14 when it started that's grim too.

Ultimately, she was his pupil, he shouldn't have gone there. Even if he was having a really bad time.

RikeBider Thu 20-Jun-13 16:27:57

I'm not sure that length of relationship is an indicator of whether it is healthy or there isn't an abuse of power.

paperlantern Thu 20-Jun-13 16:28:41

ambersocks If that unfortunate position happens. You wait. If it's real it will still be there in 2 years +.

You do not persuade the child to have sex in cars and hotels rooms. You do not have an affair. You do not abandon your wife. You do not use your wife's passport to take a child away from their home. You do not persuade the child it is their fault

Cravey Thu 20-Jun-13 16:30:13

I am also confused that people are confused. She was / is a child. Therefore he has broken the law. It doesn't matter that she was willing and able. He as the adult should know that it was illegal etc.

FeegleFion Thu 20-Jun-13 16:30:38

As an addition to what Paper just said.

You do not victim blame.

FCEK Thu 20-Jun-13 16:31:24

Her parents must be going through absolute hell. Especially as he's still manipulating her by saying he loves her as he is sentenced. I hope he is jailed for as long as possible to give her time to move on, get support and realise what a vile scumbag he really is.

GhoulWithADragonTattoo Thu 20-Jun-13 16:32:27

I think the people that need to consent to taking a minor out of the country are the minor's parents. The fact the girl agreed to go is irrelevant to the commission of the crime. The parents clearly did not consent.

Catlike Thu 20-Jun-13 16:43:00

He wouldn't have been classed as in a position of trust . He wasn't then her teacher on a school trip , for example

Oh god, it really does sound very calculated in that case sad
I remember in the trial coverage, it said he'd researched online how long he'd be in jail if he were convicted of having sex with a minor.

It does seem like he had a calculated plan rather than just tagged along with this headstrong, suicidal girl because he was worried about her. Horrid.

paperlantern Thu 20-Jun-13 17:01:16

Yes what he did, the timing of what he did and the way he did it really is very calculated.

Coupled with the fact that this isn't the first teenage pupil he sent birthday cards and friendly text messages too. That too felt very calculated, I wonder if she wasn't the first one he targetted she was just the first one that took the bait.

paperlantern Thu 20-Jun-13 17:02:23

female teenage pupil - no reports of him having sent Birthday cards to the boys hmm

Talkinpeace Thu 20-Jun-13 17:05:57

and note that he did not give evidence : implies it would not have helped his case.

She was a child. She could be 15 or 5 : she was a child.

soverylucky Thu 20-Jun-13 17:30:03

Utterly depressing that some people can't see the harm here. There is a horrible attitude in this country that girls are fair game if they come on to you regardless of their age or emotional state.
It was reported that this actually all started when she was 14 - with sex following shortly after her 15th birthday. The law is there to protect children.

As a teacher I can now see it becoming even harder for us to do our job - more checks, fear and mistrust from either side should you end up alone with a pupil in the classroom, having your motives questioned when you show concern for a pupil etc - all because of this idiot who has behaved in a terrible, terrible way. I am so cross that a fellow teacher has let so many people down.

FeegleFion Thu 20-Jun-13 17:56:10

Can I just respond to you, sovery

As a mother of a 14 year old DD, my trust in my daughter's male teachers and, specifically, her form tutor has not wavered.

As a reasonable parent, I know this to be the exception, rather than the rule and I applaud all teachers who have taken their posts honourably.

Catlike Thu 20-Jun-13 17:57:55

Some people need to read this article. It explains, for those who don't get it, why pupil-teacher relationships are abusive regardless of any supposed consent from the young person involved.

Alisvolatpropiis Thu 20-Jun-13 18:02:06

Surely you must know you're being unreasonable?

One can't just swan off abroad with minors who aren't your own children (sometimes not even if they are your own) regardless of how much they want to go. It's abduction because they lack to capacity to make that decision.

thebody Thu 20-Jun-13 18:02:23

I can't understand how in earth anyone is confused.

He is a predatory paediphile who abducted a child. 15 is a child.

This isn't two teenagers but a man of 30 who was in a position if trust.

Dirty disgusting man.

hamilton75 Thu 20-Jun-13 18:05:17

I'm amazed you can be confused.

She was a minor and as such not capable of consenting. He was her teacher and it is a gross breach of trust.

Anyone idiot can see why he's been found guilty.

AvonCallingBarksdale Thu 20-Jun-13 18:05:18

Why is this in any way confusing? confused
1) He was a teacher, therefore in a position of trust
2) She was 14 when the relationship started, ie a child
3) They had sex when she was 15, so still under the age of consent in this country.
4) It's not unusual for people who have been groomed in this way to try and protect their abuser, sadly.

FFS, you do not take advantage of your position.

LilacPeony Thu 20-Jun-13 18:08:02

There is a horrible attitude in this country that girls are fair game if they come on to you regardless of their age or emotional state.

I agree with this.

corlan Thu 20-Jun-13 18:09:22

I've worked with secondary age children for 10 years.

I have yet to meet a 15 year old that a half intelligent adult couldn't manipulate.

lougle Thu 20-Jun-13 18:10:41

"He wouldn't have been classed as in a position of trust . He wasn't then her teacher on a school trip , for example"

The laws on 'Position of Trust' only allow for a charge when the pupil is aged 16 or 17 link because that is when a child is over the age of consent, but because of the nature of the relationship, the power balance is considered to be tipped too far in the direction of the person in a position of trust.

thebody Thu 20-Jun-13 18:11:56

He couldn't help himself and it was the child doing the running. He was helpless!!!!

Hope he gets what he deserves in prison.

Innacorner Thu 20-Jun-13 18:13:24

The only thing I'm confused about is why he wasn't also charged with sex with a minor. They both admitted in court to having a sexual relationship in the UK before they left for France.

bassingtonffrench Thu 20-Jun-13 18:16:17

an ex-boyfriend of mine's mum and dad were once pupil and teacher. They married when she left school. he was ten years older than her. he stayed at the school, she had two kids, still married as far as I know.

it does happen

hackmum Thu 20-Jun-13 18:19:39

Innacorner: "The only thing I'm confused about is why he wasn't also charged with sex with a minor."

Me too. If they had charged him with that he would have had to plead guilty, and they could have saved the cost of a trial. Or they could have charged him with both, I suppose, but odd just to charge him with abduction.

Alisvolatpropiis Thu 20-Jun-13 18:20:22

Often happens bossing

A friend of mines parents were pupil and teacher,however nothing happened until she left though "I always thought he was a bit of a tosser when I was actually there to be honest"

A teacher at the school I went to had a custodial sentence after a long running affair with a pupil. No proof of it before she was 16 though it was well known amongst the pupils are least that it had started in some capacity when she was 14. She was a few years older than me,it was one of her friends who eventually told. They are now married with children.

AnyFucker Thu 20-Jun-13 18:26:12

Have missed the news today

Has there been a verdict/sentencing ?

Greythorne Thu 20-Jun-13 18:31:39

Guilty
Sentencing later

RikeBider Thu 20-Jun-13 18:33:14

Again though, just because a relationship turns out to be lengthy or involves having children, it doesn't "prove" that it isn't abusive/manipulative or there isn't a power imbalance.

FeegleFion Thu 20-Jun-13 18:33:30

Bassington - it really shouldn't fucking happen! That's the point!

AnyFucker Thu 20-Jun-13 18:36:26

Thanks grey...are we starting a sweep on how pathetic the sentence is ?

thebody Thu 20-Jun-13 18:39:29

What middle aged man falls in love with a 15 year old girl.

Oh yes one unable to establish a normal relationship with a woman. One who needs worshipping.

Manipulative looser.

If he was a decent bloke he wouldn't even give a child like this a sexual thought.

Innacorner Thu 20-Jun-13 18:39:36

hackmum I would have been disappointed if he'd only been done with USI and not abduction, suspect the abduction is the greater offence in sentencing terms.

noddyboulder Thu 20-Jun-13 18:41:31

Thanks everyone - sorry, I have been busy with clubs and should know better than to start a thread and then bugger off!

I am not very wise to legal matters and was just confused as abduction sounds like bundling someone into a car... as I said, in no way am I suggesting that it doesn't matter as she somehow 'asked for it' - she didn't know what she was doing, and he should have known far, far better, especially as he knew her background and that she was vulnerable. What with all the other women he shagged while married, I think his impulse control system is absent... horrible man, anyway.

Some of the media reporting has been absolutely vile "8 times a night!!!" and all that. Poor girl.

Alisvolatpropiis Thu 20-Jun-13 18:41:56

Rike - I wasn't sharing my second anecdote in a "that makes it all ok" way.

I find it very creepy they've ended up married after he was at least grooming her from the age of 14. It transpired that this bloke was "advised" to leave the school he was at before mine because it was noted he was showing an unhealthy interest in his female pupils and if he didn't leave they would have to do something about it. So despite knowing there was an issue they merrily waved him off to the school I attended where he showed more than just an interest. Vile.

flippinada Thu 20-Jun-13 18:44:19

I wouldn't be surprised if he got a risible sentence but maybe, just maybe, he won't.

A teacher (at the same school hmm was sentenced to 7 years for grooming two pupils. From the BBC News Report:

"In 2009, supply teacher Robert Healy, then aged 27, was jailed for seven years at Lewes Crown Court after grooming two Bishop Bell pupils on the social networking site Bebo."

Innacorner Thu 20-Jun-13 18:46:06

I'm sick of men seeing girls as their possessions to do what they want with, and then to claim "but she wanted it too" when they get caught. This abduction happened roughly around the time that the Saville abuse was exposed, and those men in Rochdale (?) were convicted re the child prostitution case - in each of those three cases idiots are or have said the girls were willing (including some police in the Rochdale case). They were CHILDREN FFS

thebody Thu 20-Jun-13 18:48:49

Exactly. Decent adults protect children. End of.

Pagedown Thu 20-Jun-13 18:50:51

Fucksake. Why does "she is a minor and not able to give valid consent" even have to be explained to people?

cakebaby Thu 20-Jun-13 18:53:38

USI NO L

Innacorner Thu 20-Jun-13 18:57:42

cakebaby ???

cakebaby Thu 20-Jun-13 19:07:44

Ffs I hate this phone.

USI No longer exists in current UK law.
Abduction has 2 strands, by person connected with child (parent/ carer/guardian etc) where the child is removed from the UK or, by person NOT connected with child where the abduction takes or detains a child in or out of UK. If the child is under 16 the law says they cannot consent even if that's what they want to do. He acted without reasonable authority or lawful excuse. If there is no consent then it would be kidnapping.

Statutory rape occurs in UK law when the victim is a child under 13 as the law says they cannot consent. He may have been able to be charged with sexual activity with a child by penetration but there could be a long list of reasons why this was not a prosecution strategy.

The offence he was convicted of carries a max sentence of 7 yrs.....

He knew not to do this. No way he could have been confused about this- he would have had to lie, cheat, lie a bit more and seriously scheme to get this relationship off the ground. It would have taken a lot of planning and a lot of thought before he even got as far as shagging her. That in itself shows grooming and plotting that's pretty evil in my opinion.

That poor girl will suffer the repercussions of this for the rest of her life. She will never have a sexual or romantic relationship that isn't coloured by this. Thats a life sentence so whatever he gets wont be as long as hers. It makes my blood boil that anyone would think she was partly responsible. He's a vile, disgusting predator who not only went against every ethical code of his profession but cheated on his wife at the same time. Absolute scumbag. Actually no- he blackens the good name of scumbags everywhere- he's fucking filth and I never say that about people.

Rant over.

Innacorner Thu 20-Jun-13 19:11:09

Thankyou cakebaby, that's interesting

DownstairsMixUp Thu 20-Jun-13 20:06:36

I am disgusted some people seem to be confused about this. On par with the comment section on daily fail actually. How can you be confused? If a 15 year old was "suicidal" (his defense) and asked to run away, WOULD YOU? Even if you had feelings for him/her would you run away if they asked? I know for a fact I have the self control to encourage them to get help and would NEVER run off with someones child and secondly, I would get myself some fucking help for fancying a child anyway!

lljkk Thu 20-Jun-13 20:10:21

I don't accept he's a sexual predator. A numpty, yes, fine. Loathe him for being an idiot. But predatory, no.

Several mid-teenage brides in my family tree.

RikeBider Thu 20-Jun-13 20:20:33

What makes you think he's an idiot? He's an intelligent, educated 30 year old in a position of responsibility, he has a wife, a job, a home.

Innacorner Thu 20-Jun-13 20:24:13

" RikeBider
What makes you think he's an idiot? He's an intelligent, educated 30 year old in a position of responsibility, he has a wife, a job, a home."
Ummm, perhaps because he threw it all away because of some sensations in his boxers?
Although he is also a sexual predator - I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.

firesidechat Thu 20-Jun-13 20:24:59

I don't accept he's a sexual predator. A numpty, yes, fine. Loathe him for being an idiot. But predatory, no.

Several mid-teenage brides in my family tree.

Really? Despite everything else posted on this thread you still don't think he acted appallingly and deserves to go to prison? Amazing!

Several teen brides in my family tree too, but none of them were the brides teacher and quite right too.

What is he if he's not a sexual predator? He's groomed and abused an underage girl. That's the dictionary definition of a sexual predator.

Ffs stop defending this manipulative sack of shit, people. It's not about her age or the age gap, it's about him being in a position of trust and him totally abusing that. He had a duty of care and he disregarded that entirely. No way on earth you can defend that. Kids are vulnerable and shouldn't be being abused by the very people who are meant to be protecting them.

CrapBag Thu 20-Jun-13 20:28:20

I was sexually abused at 15 and whilst I was not consenting, I didn't exactly scream and shout at him to leave me alone, I was too scared. So did I consent to that? No I bloody well didn't.

Its sad though that there are people that would argue it wasn't abuse and would be confused by that.

Teacher should have known better. He is a fucking idiot. And he mouthed "I love you" to her when he was lead away or whenever it was. He has learned nothing has he.

RikeBider Thu 20-Jun-13 20:29:29

Idiot suggests he just did something stupid or impulsive or somehow didn't realise it was wrong. Which isn't the case. He had a prolonged sexual relationship with a vulnerable child half his age who he was in a position of trust and authority over. That isn't idiotic, like "oops, I reversed the car into a lamp post silly me". He researched possible jail sentences, he took her abroad to somewhere with different consent laws. Not an idiot at all.

Bobyan Thu 20-Jun-13 20:35:37

A numpty?!? WTAF.

He started a "relationship" with a 14 year old child, which became sexual (if you can believe a word of it) when she turned 15.

He's a pervert. And I wouldn't want him teaching my daughter.

Hulababy Thu 20-Jun-13 20:36:08

He IS a sexual predator. How can you think so???

He was her teacher, in a position of trust.
She was then a 14y old child.
He groomed her.
He had sex with her.
He took away from her parents, without their knowledge or consent.

He is a risk to female teenage girls.
He is a sexual predator. No two ways about it.

flippinada Thu 20-Jun-13 20:36:12

He's a bit more than an idiot. He's a predator and an abuser. He deliberately targeted a young, vulnerable girl and groomed her. And I wouldn't be surprised if he had tried similar before.

It's not unknown for people like this to deliberately work their way into a position of trust where they can get access to their favoured targets.

AnyFucker Thu 20-Jun-13 20:36:56

I wonder if the apologists on this thread caught the footage of him coming out of court this evening...smirking and making eye contact with the cameras

the bloke is a predator, an abuser and an attention seeker

expect much more from him

AnyFucker Thu 20-Jun-13 20:37:50

x-posted with ada

we often agree, as it 'appens

davidjrmum Thu 20-Jun-13 20:50:19

My 14 yr old dd (soon to be 15) went off to her end of middle school prom this evening with her friends. They spent ages getting ready, giggling and enjoying themselves and looked absolutely lovely - looking so grown up but not grown up really - just young girls being young girls. The thought that a teacher might think it appropriate to try to start a relationship with any one of them at such a vulnerable time in their lives horrifies me. I hope he goes to prison for a long time.

CrapBag Thu 20-Jun-13 20:50:45

Oh FFS, so I called him an idiot. Fine, I'll say he's a fucking cunting sexual predator then. Is that better. Yes the fact I said idiot is the thing to focus on in my post. angry

RikeBider Thu 20-Jun-13 20:55:14

I think people are replying to lljkk not you Crapbag.

flippinada Thu 20-Jun-13 21:04:59

Cheers AF

I didn't see that but it doesn't surprise me.

It says a lot about him, I think, that he wouldn't take the stand but was quite happy for her (and of course his friends and family) to do so in his defence. And the creepy "I love you" is no doubt to ensure she is kept in check.

I just hope the poor girl gets the support and help she needs.

FeegleFion Thu 20-Jun-13 21:06:59

Oh my FUCKING eyes!

lljkk - I always thought you were a reasonable poster.

I tell you what, those poor, raped teen brides!

Dis-gus-ting!

CrapBag Thu 20-Jun-13 21:07:29

Whoops, sorry. blush

Thought it was mine as a few of them came directly after my post.

Alisvolatpropiis Thu 20-Jun-13 21:07:35

crapbag

It's not you people are criticising for saying "idiot"

flippinada Thu 20-Jun-13 21:08:15

In fact, the more I think about that exchange - "I love you, I'm sorry" - the more chilling I find it.

DeeDee1977 Thu 20-Jun-13 21:09:00

AF I saw the smirk - arsehole!

thebody Thu 20-Jun-13 21:12:04

Errrr, my dmil and fil married at 17 and she was pregnant.

Get they! They were both teenagers not 15 and 30 ffs.

I find it scary and creepy when people apologise for paedophiles and rapists. Just don't get it. You either know what's right and decent or you don't. No fuzzy line.

AnyFucker Thu 20-Jun-13 21:12:33

He smirked and preened on camera led out of court, but didn't take the stand

Says it all

Crapbag, I wasn't getting at you

fabergeegg Thu 20-Jun-13 21:13:45

OP, the girl may have appeared to go willingly but she didn't really go willing. She was vulnerable to exploitation/coercion on two counts - being a pupil and being underage.

Don't you know that many victims of abuse appear to endure it 'willingly'? How can you even ask this question?

You're being desperately unreasonable.

Idrinksquash Thu 20-Jun-13 21:14:28

The weirdest part is that her parents knew what was going on, to a degree. I mean the school had informed them of their enquiries as to what happened on that school trip and I believe he was only a supply teacher at the school.

I dunno, if a school told me this kind of stuff I don't think I'd be sending DD back as if nothing had happened.

scottishmummy Thu 20-Jun-13 21:15:57

he abused role,position and he was predatory to a vulnerable adolescent
she's a vulnerable adolescent in turmoil
those in position of responsibility are not expected to prey upon vulnerable

AnyFucker Thu 20-Jun-13 21:17:46

this young girl has been let down by several adults who were responsible for her well being

so sad

fabergeegg Thu 20-Jun-13 21:17:50

Posters saying the teacher isn't guilty of abuse because they've known teenagers to marry - how would you like your teenager to come home from school and announce they're in a sexual relationship with someone in a position of trust? If you think this is fine, where on earth do you draw the line?

I'm speechless. How utterly and incredibly offensive.

Glad some sensible people are coming out of the woodwork finally.

A very similar thing happened to me as a teenager with a teacher of a similar age to Forrest. His defence was that it was "love" but he had known me since I was 11 and he was 25. Yes I did have a massive crush on him- I thought he was amazing but I was a kid and my head was filled with the things kids heads are filled with. He should have kept it in check not groomed me and then told me he loved me. I think the love thing is almost worse than the sex thing because by telling her he loved her it almost justifies the sex to some people... "Oh but he loves her!" Bullshit. He wouldn't know what love was if it came and smacked him square in the jaw- all he knows about is how best to manipulate until he gets his own way.

I wouldn't want him near a teenage girl ever again and for what it's worth I hope that poor girl gets the support and help she needs because its going to be a fucking long road for her thanks to that bastard.

AnyFucker Thu 20-Jun-13 21:24:34

somedizzy, I can't believe that these things need saying, tbh

scottishmummy Thu 20-Jun-13 21:27:14

lets be clear vulnerable adolescent who self harms has impaired judgement
her impaired judgement and his posturing lead her to believe she needed him
he should have referred her to statutory services,camhs.he abused his power

SacreBlue Thu 20-Jun-13 21:30:47

Even given the fact that it was legally and professionally wrong it was also totally morally wrong.

Many children and vulnerable adults may display behaviours that are provocative - physically even without any sexual nature. That doesn't make it right to assault them. It means they need care and protection in an appropriate way.

By all accounts it appears she was also deemed a 'vulnerable' child they all are of course but some more especially so by circumstance or additional mental/emotional stresses how many ways does this scumbag or anyone have to abuse another person before it becomes 'ok' to condemn the abuser's behaviour and choices and prosecute and punish the abuser?

It is as chilling to read how many don't understand this as it is heart warming to see so many do - I only hope that more people can see the utter immorality of this man using the term loosely soon so that we can step closer to eradicating the victim blaming and abuse excusing that is, unfortunately, still all too prevalent

Startail Thu 20-Jun-13 21:36:18

Having been a bullied child befriended by a teacher, I'm not confused at all.

What he did was wrong, what my teacher did was wrong.

I don't know if said teacher intended to take it any further than 'friends' I didn't fancy him, had a very stable loving home and a pretty thick skin against being bullied. Yes I appreciated coffee and a bolt hole from my peers, but I wasn't looking for anything more.

In retrospect he became slightly less friends as I got older and this makes me wonder as to his motives. I think now he cooled it when he realised there would never be anything going.

thebody Thu 20-Jun-13 21:37:14

Somedizzy how bloody awful. Bastard. Hope you are ok?

Beggars belief that anyone thinks this Is ok. Hope the bastard goes down for a very long time. Hope the police investigate all the other adults as well here.

Catlike Thu 20-Jun-13 21:38:31

I wonder if the apologists on this thread caught the footage of him coming out of court this evening...smirking and making eye contact with the cameras

He probably knows that (unfortunately) there's widespread sympathy for and excusing of his actions. He knows he won't have to serve a long sentence and that he won't be given too hard a time when he gets out. His family and friends have stuck by him and defended and minimised his behaviour and his victim is still infatuated with him.

He's probably been promised a job when he's released, by a friend or relative and may well be making plans to move abroad with his victim as soon as she's 18. All the better to keep control and stop her m

Catlike Thu 20-Jun-13 21:38:56

Stop her moving on when she outgrows the relationship.

VinegarDrinker Thu 20-Jun-13 21:43:25

I'm sure someone has already picked up on this, but they did NOT "have an affair". He abused her.

VinegarDrinker Thu 20-Jun-13 21:44:06

(In reference to the wording in the OP and widely in the media)

flippinada Thu 20-Jun-13 21:46:09

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised at all Catlike.

Thinking about his parents. I know they defended him but I wonder what they really think, deep down - I remember his mother sobbing on the news, begging him to come home, father looking quietly livid. News reports also mentioned that his father collapsed outside the court today.

Somedizzy I know it;s not much but have some flowers.

ShotgunNotDoingThePans Thu 20-Jun-13 21:47:17

I think some people might be confusing abduction with kidnapping.
As others have said, taking a child out of the country/away from her parents without their consent is abduction - doesn't necessarily have to involve a sack over the head and bundling in to a car.

Viviennemary Thu 20-Jun-13 21:47:38

I was quite shocked at them both mouthing the words I love you to each other. I think they should both have been held in contempt of court. A crime has been committed here and neither of them seems to be taking it very seriously. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets off with a suspended sentence.

OxfordBags Thu 20-Jun-13 21:49:48

That there is any confusion as to why this was wrong is precisely why we live in a culture where this keeps happening. That women, that parents cannot fully understand the nature of consent, and that the power imbalance renders true, genuine consent possible in any case, astounds, angers and saddens me beyond belief. Women who unwittingly self-identify with misogyny and victim-blaming break my heart.

And Lijkk, those teen brides you mention - if they were legally allowed to marry, and were entering into marriage with a suitable peer with no position of power over her, then there can be no comparison to this case.

Idislikemymil Thu 20-Jun-13 21:52:11

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Innacorner Thu 20-Jun-13 21:53:15

"Add message | Report | Message poster flippinada Thu 20-Jun-13 21:08:15
In fact, the more I think about that exchange - "I love you, I'm sorry" - the more chilling I find it."
I find it chilling too - the fact that he is still openly trying to maintain a relationship with her, and the fact that she is apologising to him after what he has done to her. Says a lot about their power dynamic. I hope she is able to detach from him before he is released from prison.

scottishmummy Thu 20-Jun-13 21:56:53

she's a vulnerable self harmer,this wasn't romance it's an imbalanced relationship

paperlantern Thu 20-Jun-13 21:58:17

It's the sorry that is so worrying. If she feels responsible for his sentence she may well also feel responsible for waiting for him until he is released. That in itself is going to give a massive power kick to him

flippinada Thu 20-Jun-13 21:58:43

Ok, lets imagine for a moment that might be true.

If so, why didn't he spare her the stress and upset of giving evidence? Why did he not put his hands up and say yes, I did it, I'm sorry and I'll take the punishment? If she was genuinely suicidal - and he loved her - why didn't he seek help for her, insist she see a medical professional?

Oh and by the way, Romeo and Juliet isn't a romance; it's a tragedy. They both killed themselves.

Innacorner Thu 20-Jun-13 22:00:38

IDis - and all the other Forrest apologists on here. Can I ask how old your children are? I suspect that either you don't have children, or that they are very young (below 5?) because if you had teenaged children you would understand that a 15 year old is still a child, and would want to protect him/her from predatory adults.
And as for the bull about him "being in love" - yes, sometimes adults have inappropriate crushes or lusts. As adults they are expected not to act upon those feelings where to do so breaks the law (or breaks their own moral code).

ShotgunNotDoingThePans Thu 20-Jun-13 22:01:13

Well said, Flippinada. They were also the same age and neither of tjem was in a position of power over the other.

Dawndonna Thu 20-Jun-13 22:03:01

Romeo and Juliet were both the same age.

There may be little difference between 15 and 16, however, he still would have been wrong, as a teacher to seduce a pupil. In fact it is odd and unusual for a 30 year old to be remotely interested in a 16 year old and I for one would be questioning the power at play in such a relationship. I say this as someone who has a husband 12 years younger than me.

lougle Thu 20-Jun-13 22:04:35

"I think they should both have been held in contempt of court."

On what grounds? hmm

What JF did was totally unacceptable. He's been found guilty of it. I don't think he can be found in contempt of court for saying 'I love you.'

lougle Thu 20-Jun-13 22:08:00

"What's the difference between a 15 year old and a 16 year old? Apart from legally being over the age of consent, there's not that much difference emotionally. "

Idis, the issue isn't that she was 15, not 16. The difference was that she was 15, not 18 because he was in a position of trust. The law specifically increases the age of consent for relationships between people where there is an inherent imbalance of power due to the privilege of one party (e.g. a teacher) due to their position of trust.

Alisvolatpropiis Thu 20-Jun-13 22:08:55

dawndonna Romeo was 17 to Juliet's 13. Modern day society wouldn't have looked kindly on their relationship either.

I've always loathed Romeo and Juliet. Even at 13/14 I remember thinking "if that's romance I'm alright without,how stupid".

Idislikemymil Thu 20-Jun-13 22:11:12

Yes I do have children, not teenagers yet. But I was also a 15 year old girl once. He shouldn't have acted on his impulses, I completely agree. He made mistakes.

Is it possible that the day a child turns 16, they suddenly become able to make their own decisions and should be treated as an adult? 15 year olds vary in maturity so much, some will be more mature and able than the average 16 year old.

Romeo and Juliet is a tragedy, yes.

RikeBider Thu 20-Jun-13 22:16:22

Maybe they are really in love? Think about what that means. Love isn't something that happens impulsively and instantly, to fall in love with someone you need to spend time with them, get intimate with them.

I'm never going to fall in love with a 14 year old because I am not going to engineer alone time with them, send them private messages, kiss them, have sex with them.

You don't fall in love with someone by spending an 1 hour in week with them in a room with 25 other people.

I can imagine she probably is in love with him - vulnerable, suicidal, and here's a man who is spending time with her, writing songs for her, telling her he loves her. Of course a 14 year old is vulnerable to that.

RikeBider Thu 20-Jun-13 22:19:17

A relationship between a 16 year old and a 30 year old is still very dubious. A relationship between a 16 year old school girl and her 30 year old teacher is still illegal. The fact that 14/15 is almost 16 is irrelevant here.

FreudiansSlipper Thu 20-Jun-13 22:21:06

If the teacher was a woman running away with a 15 year old boy no one would be thinking they would be in love, or a male teacher running off with a 15 year old boy most would view that as very wrong but a teenage girl full of hormones is just too sexually inviting to heterosexual men

we have to rid this notion that men just can not help themselves when sex is on offer as it is totally untrue it's seeps into so many issues and allows too many men to abuse women and girls and not only get away with it but be excused for their actions

Idislikemymil Thu 20-Jun-13 22:21:28

I'm off to bed. Let's see what sentence he gets tomorrow. I think I'm definitely in the minority with my opinions! I do have some personal experience of this situation, as I know lots of others do. To me, it's just a forbidden love story.

FeegleFion Thu 20-Jun-13 22:24:25

Let me set the record straight in terms of Romeo and bloody Juliet (or any other teen romance).

IF a teen couple who are close in age, yet the girl is under 16 by say 2 years and he isn't too much older, the CPS in the UK won't look to prosecute.

This is a GROWN fucking man and a child, which is completely different.

Why is there confusion or sitting on fences?

This is a sexual predator. He raped a child. He abducted a child.

lougle Thu 20-Jun-13 22:26:46

If he was really in love, he would have stayed well away until she was no longer his pupil, she was over 18 and she was mature enough to make an informed and rational decision.

FeegleFion Thu 20-Jun-13 22:26:51

Let me tell you. If my 14 year old daughter was involved in a forbidden fucking love scenario with any grown man, never mind a fucking teacher, I'd break his fucking neck!

goodasgold Thu 20-Jun-13 22:27:10

I think that Juliet was 13 when she died. And I believe it's fiction from about four hundred years ago.

I can't see any romance or meant to be in this case. To me it appears that a teacher has abused his position of power to convince a child that it's her fault that he abused her.

flippinada Thu 20-Jun-13 22:27:42

"Forbidden love story"

Jesus wept.

AnyFucker Thu 20-Jun-13 22:27:51

To me, it's just a forbidden love story.

I dread to think what happened to you, to make that your mindset.

mirry2 Thu 20-Jun-13 22:29:28

I haven't read the whole thread so perhaps it has already been discussed, but why wasn't he done for rape or even assault? Will he be on the paedophile register?

scottishmummy Thu 20-Jun-13 22:33:39

oh good grief,belt up with forbidden love.hes predatory inappropriate adult

Alisvolatpropiis Thu 20-Jun-13 22:35:38

mirry2 I think he will be. Certainly won't be allowed to teach again. The teacher from my school I mentioned up thread was banned from teaching for life and put on the sex offenders register.

It wouldn't have been rape even the in UK because she was over 13,it would have been sex with a minor (legally speaking) but as they went to France where the age of consent is 15 he managed to bypass that.

I don't understand how anyone can not think he was predatory. Get real people! Grown men do not fall in love with children. It isn't the age gap per se,it is their respective ages now. She is a child and he is an adult. It was abuse.

SacreBlue Thu 20-Jun-13 22:37:23

I was quite shocked at them both mouthing the words I love you to each other. I think they should both have been held in contempt of court. A crime has been committed here and neither of them seems to be taking it very seriously.

The child and a vulnerable one at that - who has been groomed by an older person in a position of authority should not be held in contempt of court or contempt of any kind.

An adult who has abused his position of trust, violated his teacher training, violated his professional code, violated this young and vulnerable girl should totally be held in contempt - if not in court than in public opinion.

I have a DS of a similar age to the girl when the sickening grooming by this teacher began. I would not be 'ooohing' and 'aaahing' at the romance of it all - there is NO romance there is NO affair there is only a sad, pathetic and predatory older person in authority taking advantage of a vulnerable person in their care.

Innacorner Thu 20-Jun-13 22:39:18

Mirry2 - there's a post from Cakesomebody (around 7pm) explaining why they may not have proceeded on a sexual offence.

FeelingHorse Thu 20-Jun-13 22:39:50

I cannot believe that people are confused by this...

I am a 26yo secondary school teacher. I am entrusted with your teenagers every day.

It is my job to teach them, guide them, discipline them, support them and to be a good role model to them. That is my legal duty.

It is not ok, in any circumstances, to have sexual feelings for a pupil. We are meant to be shaping them into good citizens, what he has done is scar her. How can any good come out of this?

I mean, how would they both feel if this happens to their 15yo daughter in years to come.

I think that is what a lot of you are missing. What is this happened to your daughter? This man probably sat across from her parents on many parents evenings, and they had no idea that one day he would have had sex with her and then gone with her to France. That is just sickening IMO.

OhDearNigel Thu 20-Jun-13 22:43:42

To those of you enquiring why he wasnt charged with sexual offences, there are legal reasons for this. I cannot go into any more detail than that

WidowWadman Thu 20-Jun-13 22:44:35

"The language being used should be saved for sexual predators of the worst kind."

It is.

OhDearNigel Thu 20-Jun-13 22:46:03

For those of you saying "she loves him and freely consented" - this is what the whole grooming process is designed to achieve.

mirry2 Thu 20-Jun-13 22:46:49

The views on this thread frighten me. No wonder the conviction rate for rape is so low.

AnyFucker Thu 20-Jun-13 22:49:37

It's terrifying, isn't it mirry2 ?

Blu Thu 20-Jun-13 22:54:28

"I suppose the jury were instructed to follow the letter of the law, but it seems bizarre to me."

Well, yes, the jury are generally instructed to come to a decision based on the law - it isn't negotiable! that's the point of law.

It's possible that a judge will take all sorts of factors into account at the point of sentencing, but it is a jury's job to decide guilty or not, purely within the context of the law.

scottishmummy Thu 20-Jun-13 22:54:51

appalled at notion adolescent somehow invited or responsible for this betrayal
the responsible adult,in the responsible role abused his status,access
she was vulnerable self harming.camhs and c&f referral required not him initiating relationship

OhDearNigel Thu 20-Jun-13 23:04:10

Judge Lawson instructed the jury that the only reasons for which he could be found not guilty would be if they considered his actions necessary to prevent death or serious injury.

LineRunner Thu 20-Jun-13 23:06:44

So the jury didn't believe him.

Good for the jury. He had masses of other options, other than taking her abroad for sex.

OhDearNigel Thu 20-Jun-13 23:06:59

Quite Scottish. One would imagine that a teacher, faced with an apparently suicidal student would notify her parents, his head teacher and return her home

What they wouldnt do would drive her to dover in the boot of their car,chuck their phone in the sea, steal their wife's passport, forge a cv and adopt new identities. Not the actions of a man who thinks he's done nothing wrong

OhDearNigel Thu 20-Jun-13 23:08:18

And to those of you trying to excuse him, would ypu want Jeremy Forrest teaching your 15 year old ?

'Forbidden love story' oh my fucking god. This man is a predator. A filthy, abusive, predatory, dangerous, vile cunt who preyed on a vulnerable child to meet his own egotistical emotional needs and sexual impulses. Foul, pathetic creature.

I'm 32. I worked with young people until very recently. Some of them are stunningly gorgeous in the way young people in late adolescence can be. Have I ever considered having sex with any of them? Never. Because I'm a fucking grown up. They are not for me and I am not for them. That's an inviolable rule when you work with vulnerable people, young people especially. A sexual or romantic relationship just does not enter your head. They are normal boundaries. Grooming a child for sex is child abuse. Not romance.

Thanks to those who expressed concern for me. I think for me and posters like me it's a really triggering news story but I'm determined to keep trying to get my voice heard because I've been there and I've seen this from the inside.

Those of you saying that the very fact anyone is standing up for this man just justifies the abuse of women are absolutely right. Why is anyone saying he's a victim of a doomed love story or that this is love? You all went to school. You all had teachers- this is far from normal. To get close enough to a young person to do this kind of thing takes ages. Years. Years of crossing a line over and over again, a little bit more each time, until you've wormed your way into the child's affections and gained the child's trust. That's not doomed love, that's a predator thinking about how best to stalk his pray. And it's highly dysfunctional.

The very fact he mouthed "I love you" and she apologised to him across the courtroom only proves the vast imbalance of power in that relationship. I was in a sexual relationship with my teacher from the time I was 16 until I was almost 22. In that time I never once said no to him- about anything. I didn't think I had the right to, because I was a good girl and I'd been brought up to please people in authority. He monopolised on that because he had a huge ego and wanted to be adored as well as being massively selfish. I would bet my eye teeth that Forrest is exactly the same.

FeegleFion Thu 20-Jun-13 23:39:37

Some of the views on this thread are frightening, like a poster up thread said but what the rest of us must bear in mind is...

...there is so much ignorance here.

It's frightening, yes, but not bloody surprising.

OhDearNigel Fri 21-Jun-13 00:09:03

And let's not forget his poor wife Emily.

Marriage over. Check
Husband runs off with another woman. Check
Other woman is underage. Check
Other woman is underage and one of his pupils. Check
Husband has shagged underage pupil in your house. Check
Husband steals your passport to try and smuggle underage pupil to France. Check
Frenzied press interest leads to you being forced to delete every single social media site and your business website. Check
Forced to relive the whole sordid, horrific affair in court. Check
Then after you've relived it and your cheating, grooming, pupil-shagging scumbag husband has been found guilty you get the final insult of them mouthing sweet nothings across the courtroom at each other.

There is more than one victim in this case IMO.

OxfordBags Fri 21-Jun-13 00:09:55

"Forbidden love story"

Yep, forbidden like all paedophilia is forbidden, ffs.

Is this a crime? To paraphrase Charlie Brooker, yes, but only legally, morally and actually...

StuntGirl Fri 21-Jun-13 00:54:41

Some of the views on this thread are simultaneously disgusting and terrifying. I weep for humanity sometimes.

Legal discussion as to why Forrest couldn't be charged with sexual offences here:

http://legalmattersmag.wordpress.com/news/autumn-12/15-year-old-found-with-mathematics-teacher-in-france/

As I recollect, there was evidence of a sexual relationship before they eloped, but the law relating to extradition prohibited him from being charged.

McGeeDiNozzo Fri 21-Jun-13 03:14:03

Some pretty awful victim-blaming going on here. There is no excuse for what this guy did.

sashh Fri 21-Jun-13 03:33:02

Under the Child Abduction Act of 1984, it is a criminal offence in England and Wales for any person connected with a child, to take or send the child out of the United Kingdom without the consent of any other person who has parental responsibility for the child

That's the legal bit.

Are people confusing abduction and kidnap?

1000s of children are abducted by their parents every year, they go willingly.

flippinada Fri 21-Jun-13 07:24:52

grin OxfordBags

flippinada Fri 21-Jun-13 07:28:09

SomeDizzy good for you speaking out. I hope all of this hasn't been too triggering for you.

I really am baffled that people think there's anything sweet and romantic (boak) about this awful situation.

Lazyjaney Fri 21-Jun-13 08:27:36

"Well, yes, the jury are generally instructed to come to a decision based on the law - it isn't negotiable! that's the point."

Exactly.

Reading this link given above should be a must, for those on both sides of the discussion here, so here it is again.

legalmattersmag.wordpress.com/news/autumn-12/15-year-old-found-with-mathematics-teacher-in-france/

And what the hell were her parents doing about this before they eventually ran off - IMO a lot more attention should be focussed on that area.

flippinada Fri 21-Jun-13 08:43:26

I have seen the smirk (front page of the Metro). Ugh.

OxfordBags that Charlie Brooker quote is BRILLIANT. I wish I had said it.

flippinada thank you for your concern. The news story is triggering and very upsetting, not just for me but I know for other posters who can't be as involved in the debate because of the stage they're at in getting over their own teacher/student abuse. It happened to me more than ten years ago now and whilst it would be inaccurate to say I am over it (because I don't think I ever will be- he was my first relationship and first sexual relationship, so inevitably it leaves its mark) I am lucky enough to be at a stage where I have had (and am having) therapy and have a loving and supportive husband.

My worry is that I don't think a lot of people understand quite the dynamics of a romantic/sexual relationship that is as imbalanced as this. It isn't just that he has abused his position of trust, but as I said earlier in the thread, that she will feel entirely that she can't say no to him. When he mouthed "I love you" across the courtroom, what he was really saying was "this is your fault and you owe me". The fact that she said sorry only strengthens that. My own teacher/abuser used to tell me that when it all came out I would be in as much trouble as he was and that my family and friends would hate and turn against me. I was a very intelligent 16 year old who logically knew that this wasn't true, but that didn't stop me from believing him. For the girl in the Forrest case it is likely that he told her this and that she now feels not only that she is in as much trouble as him, but also probably blames herself. The fact that he is still keeping her hanging only proves that the abuse is ongoing.

Based on the evidence that she gave in court it also has to be faced that at some point he crossed the line and had sex with her and managed to make her believe that it was her fault or her responsibility that they were having sex. If it was anything like what happened to me then he did all the running sexually, right up until the act of intercourse when he said he "couldn't do it" and then she had to step in and say she wanted it. To his mind then he would be absolved of all responsibility. I am not saying for one second that she didn't want to have sex with him- I definitely and completely wanted to have sex with my teacher/abuser- but I was in love with him and I was 16. I didn't know what sex entailed and I certainly didn't know what sex with a 30+ year old man entailed. This isn't innocent Romeo and Juliet fumblings that are what pass as most peoples first sexual encounters.

I also think that you need to face just how much lying Forrest did. I am a teacher myself now and to get to the point where you can have sex with a pupil you need to have broken so many rules and lied to so many people. In fact, to get to the point where you can be alone with a pupil is difficult enough. This wasn't a quick thing, he will have been planning this and scheming and coming up with lies and excuses for a long time. That level of cunning is nothing short of grooming, not just a passion that overcame him and that he was powerless to resist.

I know that this has been mentioned too, but if it was really love, if he loved her, he wouldn't have put her through being in court and testifying. He would have told her to not be there and not have to face the glare of publicity and scrutiny of the prosecuting counsel. In fact, I would go as far as to say that if he loved her what he would have done is have sorted out his own shit, got out of his marriage and waited a couple of years until she was 18. The relationship still, in my opinion, would not have been a healthy one, but it would have proven a moral and professional integrity that is woefully absent here. Good God, he didn't even have the self control to wait until she was legally old enough to have sex!

And lastly, I want to pose the question about his maturity levels. I have been 15 and 16 and know how strong your feelings can be. When I was 16 I was swept up in the drama of it all... I thought I was in a novel. But life has a way of sobering you up, and now in my late twenties I know I couldn't be as easily coaxed into drama again. My teacher/abuser and Forrest are/were both adult men in their 30s, not sixth formers. If you are writing soppy love songs to 15 year old girls, getting your ego boosted by the attentions of 15 year old girls and thinking running away is the answer to your problems then you have the maturity levels and sense of a sixth former. And whilst it is no crime to be immature, it is a recipe for disaster when you are putting someone with that level of immaturity and recklessness in charge of teenagers with all their silliness and hormones. Teenagers don't know what's best for them... if they did then they wouldn't need us telling them to do their homework, revise and tidy their rooms. Teachers are extensions of parents in the regard that part of our job is to tell kids what to do. That is a lot of influence and the teacher/student dynamic works on the basis that the teacher has good intentions and isn't out for their own ends.

Sorry for the epic post, but to those of you saying this a "forbidden love story" Jeez, go back to your Twilight novels and stop defending a rapist. Once you've walked a mile in my shoes and the shoes of millions of others who have been victims to this kind of abuse then maybe you might feel differently.

soverylucky Fri 21-Jun-13 08:58:39

I know I am stupid for doing this but I read the comments section on the Daily Mail (very, very, very sorry) and I wanted to cry.
So many people feeling sorry for this man and the comments about the girl - just disgusting.
Being a teacher makes all the difference here. Would she have looked up to him if he was working on the meat counter in tescos. Of course not - the very fact he was her teacher meant that there was an unequal balance of power from the start. Age gap relationships do work and can work but this relationship is a very unhealthy one and he should of walked away at the very first opportunity but he didn't - he was the one who did the chasing and behaved terribly. I feel dreadfully sorry for his wife too.
There are so many reasons why this is wrong.

Oh, and I meant to add, I didn't identify myself as a victim of abuse until I was in my mid twenties and had therapy after a nervous breakdown. That's the hold he had over me. I thought that it was just a relationship gone sour for years. Facing up to the fact that I was even a victim was a long way down the line for me.

flippinada Fri 21-Jun-13 09:15:46

SomeDizzy what an excellent, thought provoking post.

I think you are spot on with your comment about what "I love you" ready means in this context.

flippinada Fri 21-Jun-13 09:16:12

Ready should be really.

cory Fri 21-Jun-13 09:23:40

What SomeDizzy said.

Love that lets a vulnerable child stand up in court and take the blame on herself while you are skulking - aw, it's just soooo romantic hmm

(and if we had a sneerier emoticon I would use it)

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 21-Jun-13 09:44:39

Amanda Lamb and some man on the Wright Stuff right now are defending Forrest.and calling him "misguided" and calling the girl "not innocent".

Shocking.

AVR2 Fri 21-Jun-13 09:45:43

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FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 21-Jun-13 09:48:23

He was in a position of responsibility.

phnarphnarphnar Fri 21-Jun-13 09:52:14

I'll tell you what I don't like about all of this - calling him a paedophile. He is NOT a paedophile. And to call him such TOTALLY undermines the horrific abuse suffered by PRE-PUBESCENT children at the hands of such monsters. I hate the media for this. She was underage - Yes - that does NOT make him a paedophile.

AVR2 Fri 21-Jun-13 09:54:06

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cory Fri 21-Jun-13 09:55:33

AVR2 Fri 21-Jun-13 09:45:43
"So the majority opinion here, given that the word "groomed" has been bandied around, is that actually the girl didn't ever want to have sex with him and the fact that she did was entirely down to his coercion? There's no possible way that she knowingly encouraged it? Because, of course, 12, 13 and 14 year old girls never choose to have sex with older males voluntarily. Never. Ever. Doesn't happen. Ahem."

I don't think you understand the word grooming. It doesn't mean coercion, it means gradually inducing a state of mind where the victim wants to do your will. We need a separate word for it precisely because it is different from rape or coercion. That doesn't make it right though.

cory Fri 21-Jun-13 10:00:13

AVR2, he has deliberately taken up a profession that requires a far higher level of self control than most jobs, he has committed to that. Nobody forced him to be a teacher.

Yes, some human beings may be stupid and irresponsible, but then we hope they will not work in responsible positions. Or if they do, that they will recognise that the rules they have accepted when they took on the job do actually bind them.

It's not as if he didn't know about it: not only will he have been taught this in teacher training: he was warned repeatedly by the school about his behaviour and chose to lie to them about what was actually going on- clearly because he knew it was wrong. He also rang the parents on his own initiative in order to lie to them.

AVR2 Fri 21-Jun-13 10:00:16

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Bobyan Fri 21-Jun-13 10:00:42

He started a relationship with a 14 year old who had a history of self harming. How much more vulnerable does she have to be?

We have laws to protect the vulnerable, be it because of their age or mental state.
To try to apportion blame to the girl makes you nothing short of an abuse apologist.

Utterly revolting.

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 21-Jun-13 10:00:53

Yes..creepy teachers who abuse their position are far from perfect.

Bobyan Fri 21-Jun-13 10:02:25

ARV2 interesting thread to post your first post.

cory Fri 21-Jun-13 10:02:42

AVR2 Fri 21-Jun-13 10:00:16
"So that's definitely what Forrest did, in a cold, calculated way? He couldn't possibly be just an imperfect human being who got caught up in something that led him to make very stupid decisions?"

There are records of his repeated warnings from the school, of the telephone conversation with his parents, on the messages sent to her phone (some allegedly with inappropriate images of him, but I am not sure this has been confirmed).

If he had just made a stupid decision, why didn't he stop the first time the school told him to? Sheer silliness?

mignonette Fri 21-Jun-13 10:03:17

The parents need to be looked at too. So many people failed this child.

AVR2 Fri 21-Jun-13 10:03:49

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AVR2 I am disgusted that you are blaming the girl, here. Exactly what cory said- she may have consented but she was in no position to consent. He had used his experience and knowledge about the world and about sexual relationships to get into her brain and make her consent.

The bit of your post that shocks me the most is: does not mean that she's an innocent victim who should be considered entirely blameless WHAT?! What is she to blame for? Being 15? Being innocent? Not being able to see that he is a Svengali? It is nothing short of disgusting that you are putting any of the blame for this on her. He is an abuser and your short sighted view point and others like it are precisely what gave him permission to do this.

I have been appalled by some of what I have read regarding this case in the last 24 hours but without a doubt your post takes the biscuit. A vulnerable young person is groomed, sexually and mentally abused and taken away from her home by one of the very people who is meant to protect her and you more or less boil it down to "well, she knew what she was doing, the little prick tease".

I would lay my life down and say she absolutely didn't know what she was doing. She may have wanted it, she may have encouraged his advances, but one thing is for sure, she didn't know what she was letting herself in for when she was put under the spell of this vile, scheming man. Shame on you for trying to defend his actions in any way.

DownstairsMixUp Fri 21-Jun-13 10:06:51

Well he would come under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebephilia for his interest in her at 14 wouldn't he and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophilia but whatever the "correct" term is, the guy is a fucking leech and to have any attraction in my eyes to under 18's when you are an adult is strange.

What disturbs me, again, is reading the daily fail comments. Someone has referred to her as a "buxom 15 year old" Just creepy. Even if she was a "buxom 15 year old" who cares? What point does this add? That she's fair game? And FWIW I saw her photos and put it this way, I wouldn't sell her a frickin lottery ticket where I work. She had the appearance of a child which makes the whole thing even more creepy. He is disgusting. Long sentence I hope for him.

Bobyan Fri 21-Jun-13 10:07:15

Its easy to justify abuse too apparently.

Lazyjaney Fri 21-Jun-13 10:07:20

'Forbidden love story' oh my fucking god. This man is a predator. A filthy, abusive, predatory, dangerous, vile cunt who preyed on a vulnerable child to meet his own egotistical emotional needs and sexual impulses. Foul, pathetic creature"

This is completely overblown and cheapens the issues around real paedophilia and predation of actual children

Also this view that on here that she is a totally immature infant up to 15 years and 364 days (and yet can be a completely fully functioning adult 24 hours later) is also crap, in the rest of Europe consent is 15 or below anyway so it's clear it's an arbitrary number.

AVR2 Fri 21-Jun-13 10:07:44

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FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 21-Jun-13 10:07:51

There is no "bigger picture".

DownstairsMixUp Fri 21-Jun-13 10:08:32

Jesus Christ. I hope you aren't in the teaching profession Cory, your comments almost come across like you are supporting this disgusting man.

AVR
Grooming means giving attention, flattery, making a child feel special, making them feel like they are indebted, creating a bond of secrecy and intimacy that allows abuse to happen. It's a long process and even if it isn't done 'deliberately' it is still abusive.

A 14 year old child (because she was, no argument) who is unhappy at home, lost her father figure, self harming, confused, hormonal, lonely etc is absolutely not capable of making the decision to start a relationship with a 30 year old teacher. He had a responsibility to her and he abused it in order to make her feel totally dependent on him and in order for him to have unprotected sex with her. It's so sad how so many people view young teenagers, especially girls. They are not adults. They just are not.

DownstairsMixUp Fri 21-Jun-13 10:10:02

Like I said, human beings aren't perfect. They can, and frequently do, continue to do things that they know they shouldn't. Why else do people drink excessively and/or eat too much and/or smoke and/or spend money they can't really afford? They know they're only storing up trouble for themselves, but there's that part of the human brain that is superb at justification and denial.

Unless any of them things are making an impact on others lives, what business is it of yours if i smoke, eat too much, spend money I can't afford? None. The issue here was he has ruined a LOT of people's lives because he couldn't control himself around pubescent teenage girls.

Bobyan Fri 21-Jun-13 10:10:53

I think we have a bridge dweller amongst us...

Dawndonna Fri 21-Jun-13 10:12:24

To me, it's just a forbidden love story.

May I suggest counselling?

mignonette Fri 21-Jun-13 10:12:25

Drinking/Smoking/eating excessively are all actions directed towards the self. They harm the self. Forrest projected his harm onto others. And he caused harm to his school, other pupils and to the teaching profession too.

SomeDizzy i have PM'ed you. And thank you for your post.

cory Fri 21-Jun-13 10:12:43

Lots of us are foolish and stupid and make silly decisions from time to time. But most of us tend to know which particular silly decisions are and absolute no-go in our particular jobs.

A heart surgeon knows he must not drink a bottle of vodka the night before a serious operation because his hangover could cost a life. It doesn't matter how jolly the party, how easy it is to get carried away, how drunk other people are getting- he knows he can't afford it. So if there is any risk he'll get carried away, he doesn't go to that party.

My dh who used to work on building sites knew he couldn't afford any minor carelessness about checking the shoring because it could cost lives. Other people in less responsible jobs could afford to be sloppy about details, he couldn't. So he took precautions against it by following a strict procedure.

And a teacher knows he cannot afford any carelessness in his relationships to his pupils. So he takes precautions against it.

AVR2 Fri 21-Jun-13 10:15:01

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cory Fri 21-Jun-13 10:15:53

DownstairsMixUp Fri 21-Jun-13 10:08:32
"Jesus Christ. I hope you aren't in the teaching profession Cory, your comments almost come across like you are supporting this disgusting man."

Are you mixing me up with somebody else?

I was quoting AVR2 and then pointing out that grooming is a different type of coercion, that you don't need to pin somebody down by force to be abusing them. S/he seems to think that as long as you don't actually hit the child over the head it's all right to have sex with them.

DownstairsMixUp Fri 21-Jun-13 10:17:23

There is responsibility to be apportioned on both sides. He was stupid, but so we she, and simply because she falls under an arbitrary age threshold does NOT mean that she was completely unaware of what she was doing.

She was 14 when this started. So she was well under the "magic age" you keep going on about. Oh and if he maintained his teaching job, I'm pretty sure if you work in a position of trust the age is 18 isn't it? I was always told during my nursing career that only over 18's could consent to me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Position_of_trust

DownstairsMixUp Fri 21-Jun-13 10:17:46

Sorry yes I was cory! smile

AVR2 Fri 21-Jun-13 10:18:01

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OnIlkelyMoorBahtat Fri 21-Jun-13 10:20:17

AVR2, it doesn't matter if she'd taken to flashing him while wearing a pair of lacy knickers with the words "Sir I want you" picked out in red sequins on it. Teenage girls get crushes on all sorts of people - that's what they do, it's part of their physical development and is entirely age appropriate. She was a child, with all the immaturity that entails, he was a teacher in a position of trust, who groomed her over months and years - that's the bigger picture.

AVR2 Fri 21-Jun-13 10:20:21

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ThingummyBob Fri 21-Jun-13 10:20:23

thanks for Dizzy for that last post.

I am shocked at some of the attitudes on this thread. I would imagine some of the apologists have dds and am wondering how they reconcile their thoughts with being a parent to a teenage daughter?

The whiff of blame towards the victim in this crime is so 'off' for MN that I'm bewildered. There is so much work to do in enlightening our society and that makes me sad.

DownstairsMixUp Fri 21-Jun-13 10:21:08

LOL most of us can tell when it's going too far though right and we stop it? People warn me if I keep drinking vodka I'll have a hangover, I choose to do it because I like it, i'm an adult and that's my choice. If someone told me to stop persuing a fricking CHILD I'd have the common sense/decancy to stop it because there is a HUGE difference between them sort of things. I'm not surprised he has no children as if he did, he might actually get what these girls poor parents are going through. I hope he never ever has kids. I feel so sorry for the parents in all of this the most. Must be utterly heartbreaking and to think you send your kids to school, thinking they are SAFE and this happens. Awful.

Idislikemymil Fri 21-Jun-13 10:21:24

Just catching up from last night.

AVR2 thank you for your comments. i agree with most of what you say and you've explained what I wanted to say too. I really really do not like the word 'cunt' being used to describe him!! Isn't this kind of ironic (not sure if this is the right word?) given that we're on a mumsnet thread about abuse of women!!

He's certainly not a paedophile either.

DesperatelySeekingSedatives Fri 21-Jun-13 10:22:00

I am agog at anyone calling this a "forbidden love story" shock what the fucking fuck?!

This nasty waste of oxygen has abuser written all over him and I am disgusted that anyone would defend his actions! They might still be "in love" right now but I really really hope this poor girl sees the light sooner rather than later and kicks him to the curb. He has blatantly found out all her issues, her problems etc etc and is exploiting them the best way he knows how. The worst part? He's basically gotten away with it. Yes he has been found guilty in a court of law but he's been forgiven by his family, still has this silly misguided girl's love and can walk out of prison (probably sooner than he should do!) and rebuild his life with minimum fuss. The same can not be said for his victim or his wife.

As for all this bollocks about "she's not that innocent", I dont give a fuck about her "innocence". The point is she could have declared her love for him while straddling him wearing nothing but a smile and he (the ADULT, the TEACHER!) should have been the one to put a stop to it. It was his moral and legal obligation to. I do think he chased her a fair bit though from what I've read.

So sad it apprears the girl is now astranged from her own mother sad really hope they can rebuild this relationship one day.

AVR2 Fri 21-Jun-13 10:23:33

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cory Fri 21-Jun-13 10:23:41

But if they are professionals and persist in carrying on breaking the rules after having been warned by their manager, and if their actions caused harm to a vulnerable person, then most of us would not find them that deserving of pity.

What would you think of a surgeon who kept operating with dirty hands after having been warned by his hospital manager? That he was just being a silly human being and if your aunt died from a post-operative infection, that was just one of those things?

That Bangladeshi factory collapsed after warnings had been given and nobody had acted on them. I don't think most of the relatives are inclined to shrug their shoulders and go "oh well, human beings do this sort of thing all the time".

DownstairsMixUp Fri 21-Jun-13 10:24:49

AVR2 - THERE IS NO BIGGER PICTURE!! When I was 14 I had the biggest crush on one of my teachers, I even had a silly nickname for him, got the giggles and blushed around him. If I persued him in the same way this girl did, do you think it would of been my fault he responded? No of course it frickin wouldn't! I'm 26 now and look back and see I just had a lot of teenage crushes, it meant nothing and I was always in and out of love with different boyfriends. Not sure why you struggle to understand a child's mind is not the same as an adult's.

OnIlkelyMoorBahtat Fri 21-Jun-13 10:25:42

It's interesting how some people are so blinkered

Oh, isn't it just.

FreudiansSlipper Fri 21-Jun-13 10:26:27

AVR2 what are these shades of grey?

MrsDeVere Fri 21-Jun-13 10:26:28

He was stupid and so was she???????

FFS you are supposed to stupid when you are 14-16. You are supposed to be confused and make bad decision about who you think you love.
Because you are A CHILD.

HE is a grown man. He was not stupid. He deliberately ignored all moral and professional codes of conduct. He made an informed choice. He chose to have sex with a child and take her to France, away from her family.

Victim blaming as usual.

gordyslovesheep Fri 21-Jun-13 10:27:07

Oh it's the rapey shades of grey game hmm

she was a child - a vulnerable child - he was an adult in a position of trust and power

nope seems black and white to me - sorry

DownstairsMixUp Fri 21-Jun-13 10:27:15

Oh god. What am i going to hear next? About how the "buxom" 15 year old led him on? Dear god...

Bobyan Fri 21-Jun-13 10:28:24

Can we stop giving attention to the poster trying to shit stir?

Lazyjaney Fri 21-Jun-13 10:28:34

"I would imagine some of the apologists have dds and am wondering how they reconcile their thoughts with being a parent to a teenage daughter?"

I have a 14yo teenage daughter, and I want to know what the hell her parents were doing when she was seeing her teacher, i think they abdicated their responsibility completely.

And IMO this whole 15/16 thing is overblown, it's an arbitrary number.

cory Fri 21-Jun-13 10:28:35

We maintain a modicum of safety in this society because professionals in charge of vulnerable people (school children, medical patients, people with MH disorders) are given to understand quite clearly that if they break the rules excuses will not be made in the name of human frailty.

They are warned about it from the start and noone forces anyone to choose a profession with these restraints.

HeadFairy Fri 21-Jun-13 10:28:49

I'm a bit late to this as I had a mega busy day yesterday, but I exhausted myself explaining to various idiots friends who thought it was a really romantic story. One even said "one person's grooming is just another person's being nice and kind and understanding though isn't it?" <explodes>

MrsDeVere Fri 21-Jun-13 10:30:06

There are no shades of grey.

He chose to have sex with a child
He chose to take her to France.

She was not on trial. She broke no laws. She is a child.

Looks black and white to me.

Lets face it if a man cannot be trusted to resist the temptation of a 14 year old girl's admiration, he shouldn't be anywhere near them.

10 year olds can get crushes too. What if a 10 year old told a man how much she liked him, how he looked just like Justin Beiber, how big and strong he was?

Well....couldn't blame him for acting on it could you? I mean, hes only human and she was leading him on hmm

AVR2 Fri 21-Jun-13 10:31:29

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mignonette Fri 21-Jun-13 10:31:37

AVR2

Even if she had been seventeen and a half it is still prohibited for her teacher to have sex with her. That is the law he broke.

DownstairsMixUp Fri 21-Jun-13 10:34:21

AVR2, do you have children?

AVR2 Fri 21-Jun-13 10:34:43

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AVR2 Fri 21-Jun-13 10:35:00

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DesperatelySeekingSedatives Fri 21-Jun-13 10:35:04

Oh also I never advocate vigilante justice but if he turned out to be my daughter's teacher (she is currently 5) at any point in the future I'd be chasing him out the school and out the fucking town with something bigger and pointier than a pitchfork! The idea anyone could do to my daughter or other girls what this bastard has done horrifies me!

"the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" Am I seeing things, has this been written on a thread discussing a man that abused a vulnerable young person.

Shit!

AVR2 Fri 21-Jun-13 10:37:11

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cory Fri 21-Jun-13 10:38:25

It is a question of professionalism. If you take a job of this kind you accept that you will be judged differently from other people. If you don't like the thought, don't take the job.

sashh Fri 21-Jun-13 10:40:58

There is responsibility to be apportioned on both sides. He was stupid, but so we she, and simply because she falls under an arbitrary age threshold does NOT mean that she was completely unaware of what she was doing.

Bollox

He was in a position of responsibility. He should not have been alone with her once he realised she had a crush.

He was advised to do that in Feb 2012.

And no, I don't think teenage girls do realise exactly what they are doing. They have an idea someone finds them attractive and they are flattered about that.

StuntGirl Fri 21-Jun-13 10:41:09

Children don't lead adults on. Adults choose to exploit vulnerable situations. End of.

Idislikemymil Fri 21-Jun-13 10:41:25

Going back to the 'smirk seen on his face,' you can't possibly draw any conclusions on this. Imagine how many reporters there were. They will have taken hundreds of photos and will have been provoking and goading him. They may have just said to him 'your dad's okay' or anything. Reporters will always find the least flattering/controversial photo, then print it. It sells newspapers. It's not fair to draw conclusions from a smirk on his face.

As for him teaching my daughters, I understand he was a very good maths teacher. Just because he fell for one pupil, it might not mean that every girl in the school would be at risk. I'm being deliberately controversial, as i find the discussion interesting, but when I walk down the street I don't think that every heterosexual man fancies me.

AVR2 Fri 21-Jun-13 10:44:57

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cory Fri 21-Jun-13 10:45:53

When my daughter was under the age of consent, I trusted to rather more than the thought "oh, he might not find her sexually attractive". I trusted to the thought that it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference if a teacher found her sexually attractive because teachers were adults and knew the rules.

mignonette Fri 21-Jun-13 10:46:52

There are issues on both sides when somebody gets a parking ticket.

The issue is that he was in a position of power. His training and work within his profession would have encompassed the issue of teenage crushes, their normality and the way young kids these days are often sexualised by society before they are mature enough to understand the consequences thereof. It really doesn't matter whether a teenager is receptive to a sexual advance or not. It does not. Otherwise where is it going to end? How can we maintain any kind of social order?

Making him a pantomime baddie- boo hiss- does not help. But he is guilty and she is innocent. Because the laws both professional and legal make it clear that it is an abuse of power and a manipulation of normal teenage behaviour to do what he did.

This is not an issue of 'normal' human impulse control and an every day example of how we go astray when it comes to what we want to do, should do and end up doing. This is a man who distorted the situation to his own end. And he deliberately went against every opportunity he was given to make it right. That is not 'love'

HeadFairy Fri 21-Jun-13 10:47:27

My contention is that it's entirely unfair to cast him as entirely the villain and the girl as the innocent victim. There are issues on both sides of the story

Yes, there are issues on both sides of the story. She was a young girl, whose mother had just remarried and had another baby. He was a fantasist and a teacher who recognised that she would respond to his grooming.

I'm another one who thinks there is absolutely no grey in this, Utterly black and white. She was a vulnerable child, he abused his position of trust and abused her.

What if she had been 12yrs old? would it be acceptable then, He couldn't help himself could he, he was gripped by powerful emotions. Poor man.
What age does she have to be before she is innocent?

What crap!

MatersMate Fri 21-Jun-13 10:48:49

I am just shock reading this thread.

HeadFairy Fri 21-Jun-13 10:49:02

I'm also quite certain that once he realised that the girl was attracted to him he realised how much trouble he was going to be in, but he couldn't help himself

AVR2 - do you know Jeremy Forrest personally?

If he couldn't stop himself from having sex with a minor then prison is absolutely the right place for him.

HeadFairy Fri 21-Jun-13 10:50:24

Children don't lead adults on. Adults choose to exploit vulnerable situations. End of

^ this...

MatersMate Fri 21-Jun-13 10:50:49

I suppose Jummy Saville 'couldn't help himself' too right?
and all those girls had a part to play? Madness.

When I was 14 I sniffed glue and smoked fags, to keep in wtih older kids, I wouldn't do that as an adult, as I can think for myself and make rational decisions.

do you remember being that age? you are NOT in a position to make decisions to have full blown sexual affaris with grown men. Hence the age of consent.

cory Fri 21-Jun-13 10:50:54

AVR2 Fri 21-Jun-13 10:44:57
"Cory, you seem to be assuming that Forrest took the job with the intention of snaring a schoolgirl. I am quite certain that he didn't, and I'm also quite certain that once he realised that the girl was attracted to him he realised how much trouble he was going to be in, but he couldn't help himself."

No, I am saying that he took the job knowing that this would bind him to certain professional standards. He didn't need to foresee this particular relationship to know that being a teacher would mean that however attracted he felt to a student in his charge (whether above or below the age of consent) he would never be allowed to act on those feelings. That is what he committed to by taking a job as a teacher.

If he realised he was unable to control his emotions he should either have resigned or made sure he was never alone with her (which, in fact, was the solution suggested by the school- no doubt for his protection as well as for hers).

Mumsyblouse Fri 21-Jun-13 10:51:03

I work with older students (18-22 mostly) and even I know not to have sex with them! It's grossly unprofessional. Their parents aren't paying for them to go to university to shag one of the staff. Mind you, over the years, not all of my colleagues have resisted the temptation.

It is not illegal however, whereas clearly here it was, and and as everyone has said, if he really loved her, he would have waited til she's left school. What he did was illegal and deceitful.

I do know at least two happy long-term marriages that started out that way (after school age), so I don't think a teacher/pupil relationship, once off school premises, old enough and there's no conflict of interest (you are not marking their work, for example) is always inherently bad.

FreudiansSlipper Fri 21-Jun-13 10:51:10

why could he not help himself hmm

hundreds of other school teachers are able to deal with school girl/boy crushes by ignoring it it happens all the the time it is part of growing up. if it becomes a problem regarding teaching that pupil you speak to your year head or head of school

AVR2 you are all kinds of nuts my use of "gutter language" offendsyou more than the moral and social wrongs this dickhead has done in having sex with a child.

And I couldn't agree more with sashh here And no, I don't think teenage girls do realise exactly what they are doing. They have an idea someone finds them attractive and they are flattered about that. EXACTLY.

The victim blaming here is outrageous. It is so outrageous I need a new word for it. I feel like common sense has been suspended for the day on this thread. You have all been 14-15, you have all gone to school, you all know what a normal teacher/student relationship is supposed to look like so ffs you must all know that this is wrong.

And as long as people are defending it and saying it's okay and in any part blaming the girl things like this will still go on because it becomes justifiable.

Thank fuck you weren't on that jury AVR2 and God help you if you think that this kind of bullshit, misogynistic victim blaming is "looking at both sides of the story" or seeing the "shades of grey".

AVR2 Fri 21-Jun-13 10:51:56

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mignonette Fri 21-Jun-13 10:52:08

I do have difficulty seeing him as a paedophile. I do not necessarily believe he would do this again with another pupil.

But once is enough. His punishment is because he did once what millions of teachers, health and social care professionals all over the world manage to restrain themselves from doing.

He is unfit to work with children and young adults because of this. And because of the additional harm he has caused by all of his subsequent actions. A lack of remorse and a detestable amount of self pity and assumed victimhood has been his sole emotional response. That makes him a more of a danger and an appalling role model to impressionable young people.

Mumsyblouse Fri 21-Jun-13 10:52:19

As for 'couldn't help himself', I work with lots of very attractive, fit, buff young men in their early twenties. What would happen if I 'couldn't help myself'? Oughtn't I to try? No-one would think it remotely acceptable for a female member of staff to be shagging the students.

cory Fri 21-Jun-13 10:53:35

idesagain Fri 21-Jun-13 10:48:20
"What if she had been 12yrs old? would it be acceptable then, He couldn't help himself could he, he was gripped by powerful emotions."

This.

Men whom even the apologists on this thread would recognise as paedophiles, men who abuse small children also claim they are gripped by powerful emotions and cannot help themselves. Do we care?

Idislikemymil Fri 21-Jun-13 10:54:14

Binky, you need to read the earlier bits of the thread. There is a huge difference between age 12 and 15, legally and emotionally.

I must go feed my children and give them some attention, but will catch up later.

DuelingFanjo Fri 21-Jun-13 10:54:53

"but he couldn't help himself"

then he shouldn't have been teaching children. How many adults do YOU know who would do this just because they can't help themselves? It that an appropriate defense? I don't think so.

What utter drivel.

AVR2 Fri 21-Jun-13 10:55:15

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FreudiansSlipper Fri 21-Jun-13 10:56:22

what is your line of work?

AVR2 Fri 21-Jun-13 10:57:25

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I have read earlier parts of this thread. I have also seen some pretty outrageous comments.

She was a vulnerable young person, he was an adult in a position of authority. It doesn't matter if she was throwing herself naked round a pole, attempting to cater to every fantasy he could ever dream off.

He should never never have acted on any impulse, if he could not control himself around her then he should have fucked off.

cory Fri 21-Jun-13 10:58:17

It seems his habit of texting and sending cards to selected female pupils was already noted at this previous school, so he was already crossing boundaries of acceptable conduct before he even knew this girl.

FreudiansSlipper Fri 21-Jun-13 10:59:17

fuck me

what you are a therapist?

mignonette Fri 21-Jun-13 10:59:21

I spent many years working in forensic mental health including one very famous FIPMHU and several prisons, one with an SOU attached. I too have worked with men and women like him as have many of my colleagues, none of whom share AVR2's views. He is calculating. His decisions required calculation. He lied continually and encouraged the girl to lie. He lied continually to his wife. He did predate on a school girl. Maybe he would not do it again. Maybe not. That is not relevant.

He used her attentions as a gratification and to validate and bolster a life he was dissatisfied with.

AVR2 Fri 21-Jun-13 10:59:32

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HeadFairy Fri 21-Jun-13 10:59:59

No, but I've followed the court case and in my line of work I have to deal with people like him. That's why I feel confident in stating that he's not a cold, calculating sexual predator, even though it may be convenient for some to consider him in that way.

You don't have to be a predatory bastard like Ian Huntley or Mark Bridger to be a paedophile. Paedophiles come in all shapes and sizes. It's dangerous to assume they all look like loners, shuffling around in dirty macs, hiding in playgrounds waiting to snatch some poor unsuspecting child.

higgle Fri 21-Jun-13 11:01:43

I have noticed in the press today that they remain a couple and the relationship is still on. Maybe the story will have a happy ending. There are examples of teachers and pupils who have lived together and married despite the circumstances of their meeting and I struggle to see him as anything other than someone who was misguided.

HeadFairy Fri 21-Jun-13 11:01:46

AVR2 My contention is that this a much more complex issue than you want to acknowledge. It's not just Forrest who needs help, it's the girl too - and not because of what he did to her, but because of what was going on in her life that led her to seek comfort and validation in the arms of a much older man

This bit I agree with.

And when he began to get inappropriate feelings for her he should have done everything he could to make sure he wasn't anywhere near her.

OxfordBags Fri 21-Jun-13 11:02:22

Hey, thanks, AVR2 - thanks to you, my Rapey Victim Blame Bingo card is nearly full. Could you just say something along the lines of her equally controlling him, or men not being able to control their dicks, so I can shout "HOUSE!"? Ta muchly.

AVR2 Fri 21-Jun-13 11:03:18

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MrsDeVere Fri 21-Jun-13 11:03:39

AVR2 the people who are not agreeing with you are not ignorant placard carrying peedo haters hmm

Many of us work in social care. Many of us work in health care. We are well aware of the complexities of the human mind.

We know that abusers are not all cold calculating serial killers. We are not stupid.

Dismissing us because you think you have a more sophisticated understanding of human nature does not make you right.

Some things are black and white.
Not many, but some. And knowing that does not mean we are idiots who would change our minds if we were just as clever as you.

cory Fri 21-Jun-13 11:04:48

AVR2 Fri 21-Jun-13 10:59:32
""then he shouldn't have been teaching children"

Fair enough. But how do you screen against that when employing teachers? You can't. I'm willing to bet that Forrest himself never expected to feel the way he did until it actually happened."

People who take on professional jobs are supposed to screen themselves. They are committing themselves to behave in a certain way regardless of how they feel. And if that proves impossible- you can always resign.

The school did try to protect him. They suggested ways in which he would be safe from getting into untenable situations. He ignored them and lied to them.

mignonette Fri 21-Jun-13 11:06:38

You cannot screen for it. But the gross failure of so many people when it became clear that Forrest had crossed a line needs proper independent inspection.

There needs to be a process of professional supervision in place whereby teachers can discuss any concerns they have regarding their feelings about a pupil that allows them to work through it in a safe non judgemental manner but with appropriate supervisory measures in place.

In many MH work places, staff have been able to do this when there is either a conflict of interest with a patient, a conflict of personality or a process of maybe transference which causes too many complications in a therapeutic relationship.

I realise it is not usually possible to opt out of teaching a particular student because you are becoming over involved (in terms of investing emotion, not sexual) but there needs to be a safe space to discuss these feelings within a work place that protects all concerned from harm.

flippinada Fri 21-Jun-13 11:06:39

Doesn't surprise me for one moment cory.

I would imagine he's tried this before but she was the first who responded.

There are lots of teenagers who are troubled/vulnerable for a variety of reasons. It is the responsibility of adults who are in a position of trust not to abuse/exploit that trust.

AVR2 Fri 21-Jun-13 11:06:56

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cory Fri 21-Jun-13 11:08:39

higgle Fri 21-Jun-13 11:01:43
"I have noticed in the press today that they remain a couple and the relationship is still on. Maybe the story will have a happy ending. "

Yeah, he sounds a real prize. Lied to his wife, lied to the girl's parents, lied to his employer, knew (so they claim) that she was suicidal so took her away somewhere where she would have no access to medical care. 35 years old and behaves like a 15yo. Just what you want for a lifetime of wedded bliss. hmm

What has he done that suggests he tried to avoid her and failed?

AVR2 Fri 21-Jun-13 11:09:10

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mignonette Fri 21-Jun-13 11:09:58

yes emotion clouds judgement but most of us have an inbuilt moral compass that precludes what Forrest did.
And that still does not mean that she is in any way shape or form, culpable or holder of any blame.

AVR2 Fri 21-Jun-13 11:11:13

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AVR2 Fri 21-Jun-13 11:12:27

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Nope but I'm not the one that is assuming he has 'almost certainly tried and failed.'

HeadFairy Fri 21-Jun-13 11:13:19

On the evidence of this case, Forrest isn't a paedophile. Paedophilia is a psychiatric disorder characterised as sexual interest in prepubescent children but AVR2, this was an abduction case. Details of his sexual interest in her would have been minimal as not relevant to the case.

FreudiansSlipper Fri 21-Jun-13 11:14:02

AV2R

do you not think transference is very much part of a teacher/pupil relationship and it is for the teacher to be aware of this

mignonette Fri 21-Jun-13 11:14:14

And one of the fundamental tenets behind the sex offender programme at places like Grendon is the exposure and addressing of the kind of victim blaming thought processes that you are displaying AVR2

It is all part of the thought processes that people like Forrest work through to lower their threshold so they can then act upon their thoughts and feelings. And I am very disturbed that a therapist should be so insightless about their own which appear on post to closely mirror that of offenders..

cory Fri 21-Jun-13 11:17:58

"Emotion clouds judgment".

That is what the law is for.

Many of us see red when we are angry. We find it almost impossible not to pick up something heavy and let our employer or the ghastly man in the employment office or our child's obnoxious friend have it where they would feel it. Almost impossible, but not quite. Because we know we mustn't. Some of us are able to do this on moral restraints alone. Others need the thought of the law. Rage is an emotion that is at least as real and strong as sex. And we have little sympathy for people who claim that they can't be blame for assault because their emotions clouded their judgment.

Dawndonna Fri 21-Jun-13 11:18:05

fatally attracted Do grow up. You are aware that Lolita is a novel, aren't you, AVR?

You have said you work in therapy, are you a therapist? What sort of therapy? Psychiatric therapy doesn't really cover it, that's an umbrella term. What are your qualifications?
To be honest, I would, on present form be very scared about referring somebody to you.
No matter which way you look at this case, legalities and emotions included, he was in the wrong. There were many points where he could have put a stop to things, he chose not to do so. That is wrong, that is a calculated step, ergo, he is to blame.

Idislikemymil Fri 21-Jun-13 11:18:12

That's completely not fair. Personal attacks are not appropriate in this discussion.

DuelingFanjo Fri 21-Jun-13 11:19:49

"I'm willing to bet that Forrest himself never expected to feel the way he did until it actually happened."

wow.

You know nothing about him or his previous behaviour other than what was presented in court so that's a pretty strange bet for someone in your kind of work to make!

Idislikemymil Fri 21-Jun-13 11:20:14

You're not reading what AVR2 is saying. She's agrees he was in the wrong.

HeadFairy and AR2 I am sorry, but I don't agree with this, below

^HeadFairy Fri 21-Jun-13 11:01:46
AVR2 My contention is that this a much more complex issue than you want to acknowledge. It's not just Forrest who needs help, it's the girl too - and not because of what he did to her, but because of what was going on in her life that led her to seek comfort and validation in the arms of a much older man

This bit I agree with.^

Plenty of girls go out with older men and aren't in need of psychiatric help. My own parents have a 11 year age gap between them, which was not much less than the gap between myself and my teacher/abuser (there was just over 13 years between us). My mum and dad also started their relationship when my mum was only 17... it isn't about the age gap it's about the imbalance of power and that imbalance of power has come about because he is her teacher.

And I have to agree with MrsDeVere in saying that I feel massively patronised. I don't think Forrest is a calculating, manipulative abuser because I am thick. I think it because all of his actions that have been reported during the trial point to the fact that he is a calculating, manipulative abuser! I am just speechless at how anybody can have heard the ins and outs of the case whilst considering themself to be an intelligent mental healthcare professional and have come out at the conclusion of "well, sounds like they both had their part to play".

Her part was that she went to school and was vulnerable because she was a child. That was the only part she played.

FreudiansSlipper Fri 21-Jun-13 11:22:11

yes we are Idis

i am reading he could not help himself hmm

To me, it's just a forbidden love story WTAF ??shock angry

MrsDeVere Fri 21-Jun-13 11:23:22

I am really surprised that someone with so much experience would be making such solid statements about someone, anyone, let alone someone they had never met.

SHe is saying he is not wholly to blame, things were beyond his control, he couldn't do anything about it, he couldn't control his emotions.

flippinada Fri 21-Jun-13 11:24:42

If I was posting on a thread and using my professional status to give credence to comments I made, I'd be very, very careful about what I said.

DuelingFanjo Fri 21-Jun-13 11:24:44

"Her part was that she went to school and was vulnerable because she was a child. That was the only part she played."

^this

and children should be safe at school, teachers shouldn't be acting on inappropriate feelings towards underage pupils.

MatersMate Fri 21-Jun-13 11:25:10

But he had sent cards/texts to other girls in his previous school. He did know he was capable of this.

It's not some love story ffs, he likes young girls, he wanted an affair with a pupil, she was vulnerable, he took advantage, there really are no grey areas, she is not to blame.

noblegiraffe Fri 21-Jun-13 11:25:31

I'm a teacher, this girl was in, what, Y10?

Girls that age thrive on drama. The whole 'forbidden love, woe is us, for the world doesn't understand us and what we have' would be like a drug to them. I am sure that she thinks she loves him and that it's her fault he's going to prison and that will appallingly strengthen her feelings, because not being together is the stuff of many a navel-gazing teen song.

30 year old married men are not known for thriving on drama, for being overwhelmed by hormones and unable to control themselves.
Teachers know all the rules about contact with pupils. What he did was deliberate. It wasn't a rash impulse, it was carried out over a period of many months during which he had plenty of time to reflect on the warnings that he received. He chose to do what he did, knowingly, and knowing what teenage girls are like, and what they like.

Bastard.

Idislikemymil AVR2 may agree that what he did was wrong, but unfortunately she also believes that so was the girl!

And hear hear Dawndonna it seems that too many people have got caught up in the racy, romantic, Lolitaness of this whole case rather than focussing on the fact that he is an abuser and she is his victim.

FreudiansSlipper Fri 21-Jun-13 11:32:11

he could control his actions though

we all have emotions that we do not express, we do not always feel comfortable with, some may even make us dislike ourselves sometimes they are fleeting (like being really angry with your child/partner and not liking them at that point in time) to having a crush or falling on love with someone who is out of bounds like your father in law it is how we act on our emotions

as AV2R i am sure knows we do not let our Id control us if we did the world would be a very different place

DuelingFanjo Fri 21-Jun-13 11:34:11

"What he did was deliberate"

and he tweeted about it and blogged about it and at the same time told the child's mother that it was all rumours and told his wife he loved her. Confused he may have been but he was deliberately persuing the pupil while trying to hide what he was doing.

There's some weird nonsense on this thread by people purporting to know what they're talking about.
Good points from noblegiraffe above, at least there's some sense being spoken too.

noblegiraffe 100% agree about the drama. You speak nothing but sense.

OxfordBags Fri 21-Jun-13 11:47:28

Oh, it's a complicated issue alright. The nuances and shades of abuse, coersions, control, powerplay, perversion, personality disordedness, and so on, involved in any dodgy relationsip are immensely complicated. But there is nothing complicated about the facts that adults CAN control themselves, and must, and that they know what is acceptable and normal and what is not.

If Forrest found himself mad with love and lust for a pupil, who appeared to reciprocate it, then he had several choices: just control himself, get over it and do nothing. Or leave his job, make sure he had zero contact with her. Or booked himself some counselling ASAP. Or Concentrated on improving his marriage with his adult wife.

None of the choices available to a normal, non-abusive adult include having sex with her and running off to another country (which takes a lot of planning, for those freaks here who are trying to excuse it as some sort of lurve madness), etc., etc.

And can people please try to get their heads round the fact that if someone criticises behaviour such as his, they are not trying to say he is some sort of terrifying, uber-paedo serial killer. hmm Most people are capable of realising that there's quite a sliding scale between Normal, Decent Bloke and Fred West.

OxfordBags Fri 21-Jun-13 11:48:09

Some typos in the above, I apologise - I am pissed off!

Idislikemymil Fri 21-Jun-13 11:48:40

And the thread has gone quiet... It was spoilt when a reasonable discussion turned into a personal attack on AVR2. Hope you are okay. That's mumsnet for you.

mignonette Fri 21-Jun-13 11:56:37

An attack on her views. Views she backed up with her professional status. Perfectly reasonable for me to question that. It would be questioned IRL too.

If a teacher posted here apportioning blame to the pupil, all hell would break out. So if a supposed MH professional victim blames in a manner that would most certainly be challenged should one of her 'clients' say it and then defend their views as 'a grey area'.....It is perfectly reasonable to say WTH...

Idislikemymil no one was attacking AVR2- she just appeared to be coming up with some very odd opinions.

Dawndonna Fri 21-Jun-13 12:00:34

Idislike It was not a personal attack. He/she stated that they had a professional interest, I asked what qualifications were held. Under the circumstances, not unreasonable.

Remotecontrolduck Fri 21-Jun-13 12:01:24

It's not the age gap, people do indeed mature at different paces. It is the fact that he was her teacher, he shouldn't have started the relationship when she was 14!! And he DEFINITELY should not have run off with her!

If she was very distressed he should have got her some help, here in the UK. Instead he chose to be incredibly selfish and take her away, aged 15 where even if she wants to, she can't actually consent to it.

I didn't see any personal attacks. confused

DownstairsMixUp Fri 21-Jun-13 12:12:45

There wasn't any personal attacks at all. That's something I hate about mumsnet to! A lot of people have a very different opinion to someone and that's attacking the other person, it's not at all. I didn't see the bit about her profession though and stupid phone is only loading the last page of this thread grr! I think he is due to be sentenced at 1145 I read somewhere.

StuntGirl Fri 21-Jun-13 12:14:44

People are confusing disagreement with vile opinions with personal attacks, apparently.

HeadFairy Fri 21-Jun-13 12:19:38

SomeDizzyWhore Sorry, I don't think I made myself clear earlier... it's not the age gap that troubles me. Age gaps aren't a barrier to a healthy relationship at all. What I meant was that she clearly had some problems in her background that made her succeptible to his advances. I in no way blame her at all. The responsibilty in all of this lies with Jeremy Forrest IMO.

HeadFairy did she though? I am slightly sceptical about this, just because I know from my own experience that nothing was wrong or lacking in my home life. She's been described as a "self harmer" but is that because of the relationship with Forrest? At the time of my relationship I could very accurately been called a "sixteen year old bullimic who has issues with her father" but a) I was bullimic because I was being abused by my teacher and b) I was 16 so yeah, I did used to row with my dad a lot. I think potentially he details of her "fractured homelife" have been elaborated on by the press.

I could be 100% wrong about that, but it's just a general wondering.

FreudiansSlipper Fri 21-Jun-13 12:23:29

i did not see any personal attacks

HeadFairy Fri 21-Jun-13 12:27:04

I don't really know any more than you Dizzy, it has been reported her mother had recently remarried and had another baby. I can quite see how that may make a 14 year old girl feel very vulnerable and in need of affection. But I'm not privvy to every aspect of their lives. Maybe it was press elaboration, though I'm sure they can only report what was said in court during a trial. Not sure they can spread conjecture. Could be wrong though.

mignonette Fri 21-Jun-13 12:29:27

He has just admitted to 5 further charges prior to sentencing.

DownstairsMixUp Fri 21-Jun-13 12:31:28

What were they mignonette?

mignonette Fri 21-Jun-13 12:33:11

Trying to work that one out. Its all live via link outside court so awaiting clarification.

imnotmymum Fri 21-Jun-13 12:33:38

I was confused about the abduction thing too I guess it is the term. If I was to think a child abduction I would envisage a child dragged against their will
And not trying to provoke at all and I have a 15 year old DD and I know he was in a position of authority and a married man etc but she went quite willingly if they had waited until her Bday noone would have batted an eyelid. Two of my friends have a 20 year age gap and works perfectly well

DownstairsMixUp Fri 21-Jun-13 12:34:16

Oh yes. Just seen on ITV news he has pleaded guilty to five counts of sexual activity with a child.

mignonette Fri 21-Jun-13 12:34:29

five charges of sexual activity with a child.

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 21-Jun-13 12:36:11

Schoolchildren are still protected in law until they leave school. It is unlawful for a teacher to have sex with them even if they are 16.

Also. Am laughing at accusations of personal attacks on AVR2..who was calling those who disagreed with her all sorts

They would have to have waited 3 years until her 18th birthday fir the relationship to be legal imnotmymum as he was in a position of trust over her.

Oh my God, five further charges?

imnotmymum Fri 21-Jun-13 12:39:46

oh thank you it is a mess I agree. Did he have children?

Bobyan Fri 21-Jun-13 12:39:53

I hope he gets a long sentence.

FreudiansSlipper Fri 21-Jun-13 12:40:25

i would certainly not be turning a blind eye if my ds at 16 was in a relationship with his teacher no matter what age the teacher was or sex

DownstairsMixUp Fri 21-Jun-13 12:40:43

I always think age gaps matter less as you get older, tbh! And yes I said that earlier about the position of trust! Feeling very bad for his wife now who keeps getting cameras in her face. Must be awful for her! And humiliating!

Bobyan Fri 21-Jun-13 12:41:42

What if she was 14, like in this case?

Catlike Fri 21-Jun-13 12:46:04

Did he have children?

Fortunately not. I wouldn't be surprised if he did within a couple of years though. What better way to ensure his very young partner stays with him after all of the drama of the enforced separation is over and it starts to feel less romantic and exciting?

RikeBider Fri 21-Jun-13 12:47:14

I'd be very surprised if no one batted an eyelid at a 16 year old sleeping with a married 30 year old even if he wasn't her teacher! Surely anyone would recognise that is not a healthy relationship. What kind of adult seeks out a relationship with an adolescent?

And yes, even if she was 16 or 17, it is illegal for a teacher to have sex with her.

Remotecontrolduck Fri 21-Jun-13 12:51:22

Can someone explain how he's now been charged with sex with an under 16, when he was on trial for abduction? I understood that there were various reasons as to why he wasn't charged with this in the first place, so how has it cropped up now?

Obviously i'm pleased they've charged him with it, no one can argue with that can they, unlike with the abduction thing.

It has been the law since The Sexual Offences Act 2003 was introduced. Very difficult to police once the student is over 16 though. My teacher was never prosecuted despite breaking the law.

More info below and via NSPCC:

The Sexual Offences Act 2003 was introduced to update the legislation relating to offences against children. It includes the offences of grooming, abuse of position of trust, trafficking, and covers offences committed by UK citizens whilst abroad.

lougle Fri 21-Jun-13 12:52:18

Goodness, he could be in for a long sentence. Up to 14 years

lougle Fri 21-Jun-13 12:53:40

I think that he couldn't be charged before because he was extradited for specific offences. The rules say that you can't add offences. I presume that he had the option to have those other offences taken into consideration when being sentenced, rather than being prosecuted for them separately.

DuelingFanjo Fri 21-Jun-13 12:54:20

so he will go on the sex offenders register now?

Hopefully lougle he will get the maximum because of the clause in the law except where it is inherent in an offence, any breach of trust arising from a family relationship between the child and the offender, or from the offender's professional or other responsibility for the child's welfare, will make an offence more serious. which obviously applies in this case.

Remotecontrolduck Fri 21-Jun-13 12:57:39

Ah ok lougle I think I see where it's come from now, thanks.

lougle Fri 21-Jun-13 12:58:21

I'm not sure. This link to the CPS site says that they can't take offences into consideration "If the offence to be taken into consideration is likely to attract a greater sentence than the offence for which he is to be sentenced."

The original offence carried max 7 years in jail. Sexual activity with a child carries max 14 years. I wonder if the judge feels he wouldn't have given more than 7 years anyway, so can take it into consideration?

Catlike Fri 21-Jun-13 12:58:52

He won't get anything like as long as that because there will be supposedly mitigating factors like lack of force, previous good character and so on. They might even take public opinion into account and there are a hell of a lot of people out there who really don't think he's done anything much wrong.

A slap on the wrist and 2-3 years is my prediction. Expect that's what his lawyers have told him too.

No wonder he looked so happy in the photos yesterday. He's probably a hero in jail. Very, very many men see adolescent girls as fair game. He wouldn't be regarded as a 'real' sex offender.

DownstairsMixUp Fri 21-Jun-13 13:00:05

He has been given five and a half years. Is that just for the child abduction or everything though?!

cantspel Fri 21-Jun-13 13:00:22

It would be a complete waste of public money to keep him in prison for 7 years.

DuelingFanjo Fri 21-Jun-13 13:00:45

Five and a half years. Fantastic.

DownstairsMixUp Fri 21-Jun-13 13:00:49

You can see the updates here http://www.itv.com/news/

5.5 years hmm

cantspel Fri 21-Jun-13 13:01:01

and Hall gets 18 months

Remotecontrolduck Fri 21-Jun-13 13:01:07

5 1/2 years!

DownstairsMixUp Fri 21-Jun-13 13:01:44

He has also been banned from working with children in the future. Horray!

Oh well it's not as long as I would have hoped but it might make someone else think twice.

flippinada Fri 21-Jun-13 13:03:37

I thought he'd get around that. It's better than I feared.

cantspel Fri 21-Jun-13 13:04:59

I know my view wont be popular but i think 5 and a half years is excessive and a waste of public money

DownstairsMixUp Fri 21-Jun-13 13:05:44

Ignoring above comment as can see it will kick off again. Delighted he got that much! Deserves it!

On the BBC just now, "the school where the love affair started..."
'love affair' FFS, how about child abuse? angry

Catlike Fri 21-Jun-13 13:06:52

It would be a complete waste of public money to keep him in prison for 7 years.

That would be the maximum sentence - he would actually have served less than 3 years due to time spent on remand. I would not have considered that a waste of public money in the slightest.

As it is, he'll serve just over 2 years. Is that a light enough punishment for you?

imnotmymum Fri 21-Jun-13 13:07:05

Sort of agree cantspel. As I said I do have a 15 DD and would be more than crazy if this happened but 15 year old girls can be determined and know what they want and you sometimes cannot help who you fall in love with

DownstairsMixUp Fri 21-Jun-13 13:07:31

Love affair hmm

StuntGirl Fri 21-Jun-13 13:07:34

I think jail sentences like that send out the strict message that if you do break these laws and you do breach your position of trust that the law will not look kindly on it.

I hope his ex wife and his victim can use these 3 years (lets face it, he won't serve the full 5) to heal and move on.

StuntGirl Fri 21-Jun-13 13:08:44

No but adults can. That's why the responsibilty lies with him, the abuser, not her.

mignonette Fri 21-Jun-13 13:08:45

The ban and the message is the most important.

Sadly I have become aware of a teacher who watches porn that is a simulation of spying on young teenage girls showering in a school changing room. There is no legislation against this but he teaches teenage girls and clearly enjoys fantasising about naked school girls in a shower.

What to do? This is not so clear and plenty of people enjoy porn/sexual fantasies that others would recoil from. Yet it is not legal....This teacher has not come to my attention via my work/professional arena. I am not breaching any confidentiality by posting here.

flippinada Fri 21-Jun-13 13:09:00

Yes, love affair seems somewhat inappropriate but then it's the BBC, and we know what was going on there so perhaps not surprising in that context.

Catlike Fri 21-Jun-13 13:09:02

15 year old girls can be determined and know what they want and you sometimes cannot help who you fall in love with

That's why they need protecting from themselves or rather, predatory older men.

Maryz Fri 21-Jun-13 13:09:27

5.5 years, he's done 8 months, he'll be out in two won't he?

That seems very little.

imnot: "15 year old girls can be determined and know what they want and you sometimes cannot help who you fall in love with" - well that is just bollocks. Of course you can. And if you are genuinely in love, you don't start an affair while the child is under 16 and your pupil.

You leave the school, get another job and wait. At least that's what you do if you are a responsible human being.

DownstairsMixUp Fri 21-Jun-13 13:10:17

Agree with Stuntgirl. The next three years of that girls life should be full of fun and good times, not weeping over some creepy teacher who couldn't draw the line. :/ He seems so creepy and determined though and he obviously has some sort of hold over the girl. I hope he gets some sort of counselling or help in prison so he can let this poor girl go and get on with her life!

mignonette Fri 21-Jun-13 13:10:18

I meant to say 'it is not illegal'

Bobyan Fri 21-Jun-13 13:13:01

I hope she isn't allowed any contact with him for her own protection.

Maryz Fri 21-Jun-13 13:13:07

I also hope there is a barring order so he isn't allowed to contact her until she is 18 (at least).

imnotmymum Fri 21-Jun-13 13:13:29

Oh agree should have left job and done things more correctly I am not saying that for one minute. I just do not think he is a predatory old man.

ProphetOfDoom Fri 21-Jun-13 13:13:58

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

cantspel Fri 21-Jun-13 13:14:19

She is now 16 and i cant see how you could bar her contacting him.

cantspel Fri 21-Jun-13 13:15:31

If you read the link just posted others convicted of having sex with a pupil each got less than 18 months so why give him 5 and a half years?

imnotmymum Fri 21-Jun-13 13:16:15

And why should you bar her from seeing him?

Maryz Fri 21-Jun-13 13:16:39

Well, if she was my child I'd get an injunction.

She is a victim of a crime. She is under 18.

mignonette Fri 21-Jun-13 13:16:49

His poor family giving their statement. His BIL looked so devastated over everything. Not just Forrests POV.

DownstairsMixUp Fri 21-Jun-13 13:17:30

If a 30 year old man was eyeing up school girls in his car coming out of the school gates, what would you think? At 30, you just don't see kids that age as fair game, surely that is normal? Still shocking the amount of people even feeling a tiny bit of sympathy for him! He abused his position end of. I hope he can't contact her till she is 18. I really do. If he had ANY decancy knowing he can't see her properly for the next 3 years he will cease contact so she can attempt to get some normality out of her life.

DownstairsMixUp Fri 21-Jun-13 13:18:31

cantspel because he took a child away from her mother without her permission? Do you mind if I just run away to france with your kids then? No thought not.

cantspel Fri 21-Jun-13 13:19:30

She has left her mothers home and is living with her step father so i cant see how the mother could get an injunction.

imnotmymum Fri 21-Jun-13 13:19:33

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Catlike Fri 21-Jun-13 13:19:46

I read somewhere that they've been allowed to write to each other while he was on remand and that his family told him in court that she said she'd wait for him (why are they encouraging this??) and that she's intending to visit him in prison.

So there's been ongoing contact that will continue. I just hope that the romantic shine of the whole "lovers against the world" thing wears off before he's released and can marry her and get her pregnant or move abroad with her. He will probably propose to her while he's serving his sentence.

DownstairsMixUp Fri 21-Jun-13 13:19:50

She is a CHILD!!

lougle Fri 21-Jun-13 13:22:08

He's been sentenced for the rest of her childhood and when he gets out there will be nothing to stop them resuming.

I wonder what happens when he's out on licence until the remaining portion of his sentence is expired? Will he be under restriction or will they have no choice but to allow contact because she will, by then, be 18 and he is not her teacher?

Maryz Fri 21-Jun-13 13:23:19

Well if her stepfather allows her to tie up her teenage years keeping in contact with a man who cared so little about her that he would put her through this fiasco, I don't consider the stepfather a responsible adult.

I think it's disgraceful if he is allowed to contact her from prison now that he has been found guilty.

I really need to stop reading this thread as it is making me ragey.

Very glad about the sentence, hope she sees the light and doesn't have any further contact with him.

Remotecontrolduck Fri 21-Jun-13 13:23:42

She can't give her permission until she's 16 though. Yeah it is unfortunately a case of 15 and 364 days they can't consent, and 24 hours later they can because there HAS to be a line!! Maybe she was mature for her age (which I doubt if she thought running off to France was a good idea), she still can't consent.

flippinada Fri 21-Jun-13 13:23:46

I'm astonished by posters who have children of a similar age and think this is romantic/understandable/not a big deal or anything along those lines.

Not sure what to say to that, to be honest.

lougle Fri 21-Jun-13 13:24:12

Sky news are saying he was sentenced to 4½ years for sexual activity with a child and 1 year for child abduction.

DownstairsMixUp Fri 21-Jun-13 13:24:13

I think some DM readers have got lost and come to MN...

cantspel Fri 21-Jun-13 13:24:17

I have never said what he did wasn't wrong. Just the sentence is excessive and a waste of public funds.
The girl clearly comes from a troubled home and he handled everything wrong but i dont see him as some sort of sexual predator. More weak and lacking in common sense. He put himself in a situation that he should never have allowed to develope.

Remotecontrolduck Fri 21-Jun-13 13:25:26

As she'll be over 18 I don't think there's anything they'll be able to do once he's out on license.

If they let her see him in jail though, what exactly would be the point in jailing him?

Maryz Fri 21-Jun-13 13:27:30

I don't think it's excessive. And at least it sends out a message to others that this is wrong and illegal and will be punished.

If it was my daughter, I'd want him barred from contacting her for life.

It may be the greatest love story of all time (though I doubt it), but if he genuinely loved her as opposed to allowing himself to become infatuated, he would have spoken to her, removed himself from her vicinity, left his wife and his job and waited until it was all legal.

The fact that he didn't tells me he actually didn't give a shit about her at all, everything he did was entirely selfish.

ProphetOfDoom Fri 21-Jun-13 13:28:08

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bobyan Fri 21-Jun-13 13:28:10

FFS had unprotected sex with a 15 year old pupil, who had a history of self harming herself, in his car.
How can you just put it down to weakness?!?
He deserves everything he gets.

DuelingFanjo Fri 21-Jun-13 13:28:21

"I just do not think he is a predatory old man"

Just a predatory teacher?

DuelingFanjo Fri 21-Jun-13 13:29:18

"If you read the link just posted others convicted of having sex with a pupil each got less than 18 months so why give him 5 and a half years?" because he was found guilty of child abduction and sex with a child?

cantspel Fri 21-Jun-13 13:33:31

but he only got 1 year for the abduction and 5 and a half years for the sex both sentances to run concurrently so a total of five and a half years.

DuelingFanjo Fri 21-Jun-13 13:33:57

Are his family trying to blame his actions on other people not acting on their suspicions earlier?

MrsDeVere Fri 21-Jun-13 13:37:04

Arrrggh!

All this 'well 15 year old girls can be very determined' attitude...You know what that leads to?
That leads to 15 year old girls being groomed and gang raped whilst the police and social services look on.

And my three year old can be very determined and know what he wants. I don't just hand him a fucking knife, a plastic bag and free reign to the cat.

DuelingFanjo Fri 21-Jun-13 13:38:05

this is the story of the other teacher (upply) from the same school. Not such a 'romantic' story.

RikeBider Fri 21-Jun-13 13:38:20

What view do some posters take of men that they think "whoops, I shagged a school girl" is somehow understandable??

StuntGirl Fri 21-Jun-13 13:39:43

Boggles the mind doesn't it Rike?

Dawndonna Fri 21-Jun-13 13:40:53

More weak and lacking in common sense. Why are you excusing his bad behaviour? What inside knowledge have you got, he's been convicted of a crime because he is a sexual predator. hmm

DuelingFanjo Fri 21-Jun-13 13:41:42

Given that the school already had one fairly recent case of a teacher persuing pupils in this way you would think that they would have been more vigilant and understanding of the law!

cantspel Fri 21-Jun-13 13:45:55

How many times do i have to say it But again No excuse as what he did was wrong but 5 and a half years is excessive considering what others got for the same offense. If he was a sexual predator with an interest in young girls then the prosecution would have brought forward others he had groomed but there was no evidence given that he has done that and dont think for one minute that the police wouldn't have looked to see if this was his only offence or one of many.

FreudiansSlipper Fri 21-Jun-13 13:46:34

weak and lacking in common sense hmm

what he can not control himself when sexually aroused his sense of what is right and wrong disappears

FreudiansSlipper Fri 21-Jun-13 13:48:07

no what is so so wrong is that others have got low sentences not that his is longer

mollygibson Fri 21-Jun-13 13:48:42

I actually have zero sympathy for his family. Everything I've read about them indicates that they are completely deluded and in denial about what he's done - and now appear to be encouraging the "relationship". They also appear to be trying to blame his poor wife - apparently he was "trapped in a miserable marriage".

cantspel Fri 21-Jun-13 13:49:12

Yes that is weak and lacking in common sense as any teacher with any sense wouldn't put themselves in a position where there could be aroused by a pupil.

RikeBider Fri 21-Jun-13 13:50:51

What I don't get about people saying he was weak/impulsive/lacked common sense is surely:

right at the beginning when it was just holding hands (and he was warned about his behaviour by colleagues) any normal person would have thought "this is crossing a line, I must put a stop to this"?

the first time he sent her a private message, why didn't he think "this is crossing a line, married teachers don't send 14 year old girls private messages" and put a stop to it?

if it became clear she had feelings for him, why didn't he put some distance between them?

It wasn't like BANG suddenly they were in love and there's a naked 15 year old in his bed, what's a man to do but have sex with her. It went on for months, with him acting unprofessionally, inappropriately, lying, blogging about it hmm even before it got to kissing and sleeping together and taking her out of the country to somewhere with more favourable age of consent laws. He acted purposefully and covered his tracks.

How is it that any of us manage to not shag everyone we like the look of?

DuelingFanjo Fri 21-Jun-13 13:52:53

"considering what others got for the same offense"

the link i put up with the other teacher from the same school, that teacher got 7 years, Sometimes the law is an ass. Sometimes people get stupidly low sentences, particularly when it comes to rape and sexual abuses. Why not campaign and rail against that instead of sounding like you think he should have got less than he did?

Maryz Fri 21-Jun-13 13:53:28

Weak and impulsive is getting carried away and kissing her once.

Predatory is pursuing her with text messages and meetings outside school. Not to mention taking her to France. And as for all his on-line angst - that isn't getting carried away, that's thinking it through, and doing it anyway.

Fucker.

He groomed her. He's vile. Vile to his poor wife and to a vulnerable girl. Criminal behaviour towards the girl. Nothing romantic about it at all. Sleazy, opportunistic and taking total advantage of a naive girl who enjoyed the attention.

If, and it's a big bloody if, if he loves her he'd have waited until she was 18 and not messed up her education.

Five years is appropriate. Other (male and female) creeps out there should take note. 14 year olds are not fair game. They are kids.

DuelingFanjo Fri 21-Jun-13 13:54:33

"in a position where there could be aroused by a pupil"

like being a teacher you mean? so he shouldn't have been teaching if he knew there was a chance he could be 'aroused by a pupil'.

You are making it sound like you think it's her fault but too right he shouldn't have been teaching.

DuelingFanjo Fri 21-Jun-13 13:56:11

hang on - let me put the whole of what you wrote in...

"as any teacher with any sense wouldn't put themselves in a position where there could be aroused by a pupil."

perhaps he shouldn't have been teaching children then? Which is good isn't it because now he has been banned from doing that which seems an appropriate course of action.

Your comment is

cory Fri 21-Jun-13 13:59:44

cantspel Fri 21-Jun-13 13:49:12
"Yes that is weak and lacking in common sense as any teacher with any sense wouldn't put themselves in a position where there could be aroused by a pupil."

You mean like sending her inappropriate text messages?

We're not talking about letting her get close enough to brush up against him in the classroom, we are talking about deliberately contacting her.

And fwiw other girls from his previous school have spoken to reporters about receiving texts and birthday cards from him; the reason this was not put in by the prosecution was presumably because it did not lead on to anything illegal.

But it does definitely suggest something more active than a teacher who suddenly finds himself aroused when he accidentally finds himself at close quarter with a female pupil.

Catlike Fri 21-Jun-13 13:59:55

What view do some posters take of men that they think "whoops, I shagged a school girl" is somehow understandable??

They think that females have all the power in sexual situations and that men can't be expected to control themselves, ever.

That's why the likes of Jeremy Forrest have hundreds of apologists insisting that he can't be held responsible for "making a mistake", "succumbing to temptation" etc because he is just a poor, weak man after all and can't be expected to keep it in his pants.

He's even got his bloody family saying this is all down to what a caring, selfless person he is for Christs sake hmm

I think there's also a kind of widespread disdain towards and suspicion of young girls that makes a lot of people accept without question that she was the instigator and he was just weak enough to be swept along with it all.

Dawndonna Fri 21-Jun-13 14:01:09

‘He said that I looked young. He said I looked 21. He was suggesting that was a good thing,’ she said. Said by Forrest to his wife the night before he absconded with a minor.

Jeremy brought it up quite a lot – “When are we going to have kids? And do you want kids?”. I just thought it was a bit weird because the relationship wasn’t great.’
Said to his wife. This is a man who wants control.

She said Forrest was angry that her daughter was doing nothing to stop the rumours, adding: ‘I offered my apologies for my daughter’s behaviour. He kept going over and over again about his career.
To the girl's mother. Preparing the way, whilst he continues to groom the daughter. A man who could have walked away at any point. A man who is covering his tracks. Oh hang on, that would be a predator.

Catlike Fri 21-Jun-13 14:02:34

I actually have zero sympathy for his family. Everything I've read about them indicates that they are completely deluded and in denial about what he's done - and now appear to be encouraging the "relationship". They also appear to be trying to blame his poor wife - apparently he was "trapped in a miserable marriage".

Totally agree molly, they sound horrendous.

FreudiansSlipper Fri 21-Jun-13 14:06:11

this would all be so different if the teacher was female and the pupil male or both where they were the same sex

but teenage girls we all know are a danger to heterosexual men songs, films and books have all been dedicated to to this subject so it must be true angry

cantspel Fri 21-Jun-13 14:06:45

The other teacher got 7 years as there were 3 girls involved 2 of them who he was having sex with at the same time and he got a total of 7 years for for all the overall offences.

MissM Fri 21-Jun-13 14:07:59

If you're a teaching professional you act in a professional manner. That includes doing the 'right thing' if you think you are attracted to one of your pupils (for whom you are in loco parentis while they are at school btw).

So he basically had two choices: i.e. wait until she was 16 so that having sex with her was legal. Then resign from his job and get another one elsewhere if she was still at the school. Alternatively he could have sex with her while she was underage and he was still her teacher. He made the second choice and therefore laid himself open to these consequences. It's not really a hard one to get your head around.

lachrymavitis Fri 21-Jun-13 14:08:26

I am really saddened that this is even a discussion.

She is a child. He is an adult. To make it worse he was an adult in a position of power and trust.

She is a child therefore not able to give her consent. Therefore in law he has abducted her.

MaryKatharine Fri 21-Jun-13 14:12:27

It's far more unacceptable because he was her teacher. It would be unacceptable anyway but this was a huge breach of trust. I don't think the sentence was excessive but it shown how lenient the Stuart hall sentence actually was.

However, I think the mother's speech today was completely OTT. How can shd possibly say she feels like her daughter has died and that she's grieving? hmm her 15yr old gas had sex. Albeit non consensual in law. Talk to her and support her through her teenage angst whilst she thinks she's in love with this idiot. Feel angry by all means but don't say you feel she has died FFS. You have your daughter and she is well and healthy. Just help her to move on.

cory Fri 21-Jun-13 14:13:11

"She said Forrest was angry that her daughter was doing nothing to stop the rumours, adding: ‘I offered my apologies for my daughter’s behaviour. He kept going over and over again about his career."

Now there speaks your true Romeo! hmm

He left her to face her mother's wrath like he left her to face the barristers, because what he felt for her was <soft violins> Trueeee Looove.

edam Fri 21-Jun-13 14:14:14

He 15yo didn't just have sex, she was abducted/ran away. Her parents didn't have a clue where she was or whether she was dead or alive. That's very traumatic, especially as the girl is clearly still infatuated with the lying, abusive little creep.

FeegleFion Fri 21-Jun-13 14:16:06

I'm just catching up from last night and would like to address this notion of those of us who are calling this sexual offender a, well, a sexual offender have blinkers on.

It is, you, and those who share your vile views who are wearing said blinkers.

This man this man is only a few years younger than I am. His victim, for that, dear friends is what she is, is only a few months older than my own DD.

He is old enough to be her parent (just, but he is).

This man is a sexual deviant. He is a sex offender.

I am frightened for my DD in a world in which rape apologists and victim blaming is so openly expressed, and all because the victim is deemed attractive or buxom or any other shite that you may think up.

There is no shades of grey. This man is an abuser of children.

MrsDeVere Fri 21-Jun-13 14:16:09

The fact the other teacher abused three girls is terrible
The fact this one abused one girl is terrible.

He doesn't deserve a third of the punishment. The offence was just as bad, just as wrong.

I wish the BBC wouldn't refer to it as a love affair like its some kind of office romance.

He's a manipulative lying shit bag.

Her poor mother, sending her to school every day believing she was being properly cared for.

They were not equals. In age, experience, intellect or power. He totally took advantage of her. He's got a thing for young teens and his family are in denial about it.

MaryKatharine Fri 21-Jun-13 14:19:20

Yes, I'm sure it was traumatic. I'm not suggesting she gets over it. But to say you feel like she's died and you're grieving is OTT IMO. She's home and she's safe. So what your left with is that she was encouraged into a sexual relationship with an older man shd should have been able to trust.
I think it's totally and utterly vile but I actually don't think there's any need to claim that you feel you've lost her.

FreudiansSlipper Fri 21-Jun-13 14:20:25

i wish they would stop saying the ran away together

no he took her to france

edam Fri 21-Jun-13 14:24:23

I'm glad there has been universal condemnation of AVR2's disgusting excuses for sexual exploitation. Clearly AVR2 would have fitted right in with the prevailing attitudes in light entertainment in the 70s.

I honestly think that texting is the devil in these situations. It's so easy to send a flirty text or cross a line in a text in a way you wouldn't with other forms of communication. For what it's worth I think as far as you can police it private communication between pupils and teachers should be illegal.

DuelingFanjo Fri 21-Jun-13 14:30:29

the summing up by the judge makes it pretty clear what he is and how he acted:

I have seen nothing in the evidence that shows at any stage you tried to provide proper boundaries. You encouraged her infatuation and provided opportunities to communicate with you and be alone with you. Soon after her 15th birthday you began a full sexual relationship with her. Texts show you drove that forward.

HeadFairy Fri 21-Jun-13 15:05:35

DF I was just going to say that... pretty damning from the judge.

Surely no one can defend this as a love affair now?

FrankellyMyDearIDontGiveADamn Fri 21-Jun-13 15:14:13

It is illegal for a teacher to have any kind of sexual relationship with a pupil in their care under the age of 18. It does not matter if the teacher does not teach that pupil, if they attend the same school/college it is against the law.

The law was changed in 2003, prior to this only the age of consent could be taken into account.

josephinebruce Fri 21-Jun-13 15:19:29

Whilst I agree that it is inappropriate to call this man a paedophile - he is a sex offender.

We all know what 15 yo girls are like and yes, they are totally obsessed with sex and romance - I was at that age. All teachers know this and should know how to deal with it.

30 yo men should have the maturity to understand that young girls will have a crush on them because they are so much more sophisticated than boys their own age.

What these men shouldn't do (especially in a position of power) is send that child text messages, twitter messages etc etc. There were many opportunities for him to say no.

As a maths teacher he would be in demand professionally and so also had the opportunity to remove himself from the situation completely (and no I'm not blaming the girl or her parents).

At no time did he do that. In fact he lied to the school, to the girl's mother and to his wife. This is not a behaviour of a reasonable adult.

If he loved her, if he still loves her (and I very much doubt love has got anything to do with it) then he should leave her alone to get on with her life.

I only hope now that the media frenzy around this case is quickly put to rest and the girl can resume her childhood in privacy (hopefully without her FB comments being published in the press).

DuelingFanjo Fri 21-Jun-13 15:24:22

"We all know what 15 yo girls are like and yes, they are totally obsessed with sex and romance"

I don't agree.

josephinebruce Fri 21-Jun-13 15:29:34

Ok, some 15 yo girls then. Sorry, I was generalising.

Berts Fri 21-Jun-13 15:44:40

It is upsetting to see a few apologists for Forrest on this thread, but the vast majority of posters seem to agree that he was an abuser who got what he deserved.

Some of you may have seen me post on this subject before - this whole case has been massively triggering - but a similar thing happened to me when I was 15.

I was unhappy at home and I first became friends with this man [a lovely, 35 year old, divorced alcoholic, for anyone who's interested] when I was 14 and confided in him that I'd stolen a craft knife from his classroom supplies to try to kill myself. I was lonely, shy, unhappy and desperate for affection.

He gently pushed the boundaries (what we now call 'grooming') for a year or so, until by the time he finally kissed me, I was convinced I was already in love with him.

He waited until I was 16 to have sex with me because, in his words, he 'didn't want to go to jail' (this was 20 years ago, before it became illegal for teachers to have relationships with 16-17 year olds, although it was still against school regulations).

For those of you saying 'well, I know people it happened to and they're married with kids now, so that's okay' - Well, it's not.

I was engaged to be married to this teacher. We were together until I was 20 years old. I really had outgrown the relationship at least two years earlier, but I'd invested so much of my own identity in it, I had lied to everyone I loved, cut myself off from my family, lost almost all my friends and been horrifically bullied, so I HAD to believe that it had been worth it, that it really was true love.

But it wasn't. It was a teenage crush and, if he hadn't done everything he could to encourage it, it would have petered out like any other teenage crush. Maybe I would have dated boys my own age and had normal experiences of a first relationship.

As it is, here I am 20 years later, crying and shaking and screaming inside my head because he fucked up so much of my life and my formative experience.

And no, I don't think what he did was 'coldly calculating'. He didn't sit down one day in his evil lair, rub his hands together and go 'Ha ha ha, here are my plans for seducing 14 year old girls!'

I think it was immature and completely and absolutely selfish. And totally wrong. Because he was a selfish cunt who wanted to be Peter Pan and be hero-worshipped by a child-bride, I am still paying for it now.

That's why we have laws in place to protect children, and to provide clear boundaries/deterrent for those who can't behave decently without the threat of a jail term.

Berts Fri 21-Jun-13 15:45:47

Also, from the Guardian, this:

"Forrest's defence was based almost entirely on an argument carefully put forward by the girl herself, questioned carefully by the defence and still clearly enraptured by a man with whom she exchanged occasional coy smiles. Going to France was entirely her idea, she said, and Forrest only came along to prevent her coming to harm, especially self-inflicted harm.

This version, however, was hard to tally with the narrative of Forrest, in Bordeaux, creating his false identity and looking urgently for work to support himself with his child partner.

That ties with what child protection experts say is the common profile of adults who groom children. Aside from their tendency to target more vulnerable young people, they tend to be emotionally immature themselves and deeply narcissistic, all too ready to convince themselves they are doing nothing wrong.

This notion was tackled in the closing speech of the prosecutor, Richard Barton QC: "She trusted him with all her vulnerabilities and he was the figure of authority. He won't be the first figure of authority who someone gets a crush on and he won't be the last, but part of the role of a figure of authority is that you do not take advantage of it." "

internationallove985 Fri 21-Jun-13 15:52:34

He is an adult and teacher, so it is not unreasonable for people to expect a element of responsibility from him, and she was a child who developed a crush on her teacher, nothing wrong with that, most teenage girls develop crushes on teachers ect, it's just a part of growing up. Okay granted she was dragged to France kicking and screaming we know that, but like I said he's an adult and he should have had more control. I also feel sorry for this wife. xxx

kitty1976 Fri 21-Jun-13 15:53:23

Why is it that in France the age of consent is 15, are French girls/boys able to make decisions of who to have sex with earlier? If they were French they would have not committed a crime. 16 seems a bit arbitrary in my opinion. 5 and a half years seems really harsh considering how short sentences some paedophiles get

Can someone legal explain how the length of prison terms are set and in this case was it the abduction or sex offences or both that determined the length of sentence? Is there an element of discretion for the judge or is the cps quite prescriptive?

imnotmymum Fri 21-Jun-13 16:00:25

berts from your post I understand where you are coming from. But that is with hindsight. That is what she feels like and all the wild horses will not stop her and he was stupid. But 5 1/2 years?

MrsBethel Fri 21-Jun-13 16:01:36

Was the sentence too harsh? Well, yes and no.

Yes, because the first UK google news hit for 'rapist sentenced' is:
http://www.timesandstar.co.uk/news/crime/west-cumbrian-rapist-sentenced-to-12-years-in-prison-1.1063710
12 years for offences "including seven counts of raping a teenage girl". He'll be out in six years.

That's the typical sort of tarriff our judiciary work to. Unbelievably lenient.

Set aside the outageously light sentences dished out evey day in the UK, and this particular sentence was probably about right. 5 and a half years, so he'll serve 2 and 3/4. Sounds about right to me.

blueemerald Fri 21-Jun-13 16:12:09

Will the school girl get counselling or something to help her understand the inappropriateness of this relationship? My concern (not that this individual case in any of my business really, but in broader terms) is that he is, obviously, no longer a teacher, the student will be 16 before long and legally nothing with stop them being together/her waiting for him.

She's already suppose to have made comment saying she'll wait for him etc.

lougle Fri 21-Jun-13 16:12:42

Sentencing guidelines for Child Abduction

Sentencing guidelines for Sexual Activity with a child (youth)

So each offence is outlined, with aggravating and mitigating factors considered. This gives a range of sentencing options for the judge.

HeadFairy Fri 21-Jun-13 16:13:55

Berts Your story is heartbreaking sad

AnyFucker Fri 21-Jun-13 16:18:15

I am so sorry, berts

All the stupid apologists should hang their head in shame after your post

I think you will be quietly changing some mindsets though, even if they don't openly admit it

Berts Fri 21-Jun-13 16:20:11

imnotmymum Yes, with hindsight and experience I can say that. I went though exactly what she went through, I have spoken to other women who've been through the same thing, and I know the damage it's going to cause her.

Wild horses wouldn't have dragged me away either. That's why the onus is on the ADULT who does have EXPERIENCE to behave appropriately.

5.5 years, out in two sounds about right, considering he took her out of the country on a false passport, both serious criminal offences.

That, and he put her in a situation where she was under so much pressure she wanted to kill herself.

He wasn't just 'stupid'. He didn't just 'make a mistake'. Cutting yourself shaving is a mistake. Hitting send to the wrong person on a text is a mistake.

Developing an inappropriate relationship with a 14 year old girl, gradually pushing the boundaries until she gives in takes planning and sustained action over a lengthy period of time.

And funnily enough, the judge and jury - who, let's remember have heard ALL the evidence and testimony - agree with me.

imnotmymum Fri 21-Jun-13 16:22:46

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Berts Fri 21-Jun-13 16:24:27

I'm not even responding to that.

Dawndonna Fri 21-Jun-13 16:24:30

Even in France, where, as you say the legal age is younger kitty it's still illegal for a teacher to have a sexual relationship with a pupil.

AnyFucker Fri 21-Jun-13 16:26:54

imnotmymum, have you had a frontal lobotomy or something ?

lougle Fri 21-Jun-13 16:28:34

Berts, sorry that you've had to share that story. Sorry that it was your story to share sad

He's been issued with a Sexual Offences Prevention Order, banning him from unsupervised contact, volunteering or working with, with children for life. Does that mean that if he has children he will have Social Services involvement/restrictions?

imnotmymum Fri 21-Jun-13 16:28:57

No actually I have not. For what it is worth I started a relationship at 15 with someone 28 went on to marry him then divorced him as I realised I was stupid and not what I wanted. I am fine that is all had a great life great relationships and very happily married. Let us not presume this girl will be mentally scarred some are realists and deal with things some do not

AnyFucker Fri 21-Jun-13 16:31:30

It is believed the capacity for empathy is located in the frontal lobe

Just saying

lougle Fri 21-Jun-13 16:32:34

Was he in a position of trust? Did he have authority over you?

The whole point is that this girl was not in a position to make a free choice.

runningforthebusinheels Fri 21-Jun-13 16:33:56

I agree with you too Berts. sad Sad to say it is only too likely that this girl will feel exactly the same as you in the future.

They're not star-crossed lovers - romantic as that may seem to a teenage girl with a crush. She's a troubled girl and he took advantage of this. She was preyed on by her teacher who SHOULD have known better. Teachers and adults are meant to know better.

AS a young girl I had a crush on an older man (not even a teacher, a friend of my father)- he could've taken advantage of that too, but he didn't. Thank god.

Berts Fri 21-Jun-13 16:34:04

imnotmymum - so glad you're a 'realist' who can 'deal with things' - implying that I'm just a giant flake who feels sorry for herself, I guess.

Did your relationship happen with a teacher? Were you already having mental health and home problems that he was aware of? Were you placed under massive pressure and bullying as a result of the relationship? Were you exposed to massive humiliation in the mass media?

If the answer to the above is all 'no', then your situation was almost nothing like this girls, or mine (except, thankfully, mine didn't involve the public examination).

Berts - good post. Am sorry you have learnt that shitty lesson.

I too imagined a 15 year old who was so far in could not turn around and say "shit this isn't right for me". Because if it wasn't for love then what was it.

What the hell is wrong with hindsight? And this is why at 15 kids can't vote, leave school etc. because they are children and need adult protection and guidance.

FeegleFion Fri 21-Jun-13 16:35:54

I'm just disappointed with views like yours imnotmymum

Disgusted, disappointed but actually, not surprised.

I often spend too much time asking myself how so many people like you can exist and then I remember that there are also so many well balanced, reasonable people too.

flowers for you Berts

Also flowers for all the well balanced, reasonable people who maintain my sanity when we're up against such ignorance.

runningforthebusinheels Fri 21-Jun-13 16:37:08

I believe sociopaths have no empathy either, AF.

imnotmymum was he your teacher and did he abuse his position of power to develop a relationship with you.

And yes, 5.5 years is a decent sentence.

imnotmymum Fri 21-Jun-13 16:37:30

Of course she was in a position to make a free choice. Empathy to who? Berts yes I am sorry she has been affected by her ordeal but empathy to the girl in question yes if she needs it but all I was saying we are all different and we cannot presume that her life will be ruined for this. That is all. As emotions in general are placed in the frontal lobe I can safely say all in tact.

FeegleFion Fri 21-Jun-13 16:37:32

Social services will be involved in any future children he may have, yes.

Berts Fri 21-Jun-13 16:39:47

Thanks Feegle, AF and the many other posters who have been sympathetic. Every time something like this comes up in the news, I say I will stay off MN, but I just start obsessing. I'm going to stay off now, and go do something nice and constructive.

Like Berts showed and the judge in this case intimated : the relationship was pushed forward by the mature powerful men. Otherwise it would have petered out and just have been a crush. Ergo they took advantage.

Thank you for posting Berts

"she was in a position to make a free choice" - bollocks she was!
She was a child under the influence of an adult in a position of authority over her!

runningforthebusinheels Fri 21-Jun-13 16:42:22

BTW I think that smug look that Jeremy was wearing on the way in/out of court was that predatory men generally believe that all men are like them.

He's probably kidding himself that men are looking at him in envy at the moment, because secretly they'd all like to have authority and control over 15 yr old girls in order to groom them for sex. That's how men like him justify their actions they're just doing what all men would like to do.

Which of course is utter bull.

FeegleFion Fri 21-Jun-13 16:42:36

You don't have my sympathy Berts you have my utmost respect.

imnotmymum Fri 21-Jun-13 16:43:33

Whatever I am a very balanced, reasonable successful person. I am sorry that if my opinion does not sit with your it is I who is in the wrong. I do not see what the problem is I just said she will feel like Bert did and MAYBE she will be OK that is all. If she is not then I hope she gets the help she needs.
Context.

5madthings Fri 21-Jun-13 16:44:38

She wasnt in a position to make a free choice at all! She was a child who was manipulated by an adult in a position of authority who dam well should have known better.

Its not a misguided love affair, this is a man who has manipulated and abused a vulnerable girl.

EldritchCleavage Fri 21-Jun-13 16:46:32

IMO this whole 15/16 thing is overblown, it's an arbitrary number

Why is it that in France the age of consent is 15, are French girls/boys able to make decisions of who to have sex with earlier? If they were French they would have not committed a crime. 16 seems a bit arbitrary in my opinion

Sigh. Arbitrary? I don't actually think it is particularly. It is designed to reflect an age when most children will be physically and emotionally able to deal with sexual relationships.

But more importantly, it is the law, not a basis for some kind of negotiation. How else are we to have an age of consent law: no sex with children under 13, but above that age you can argue the child was 'ready' and 'willing'? She was 'buxom'? How on earth is anything other than a set age limit 16 and not a day younger, supposed to be workable (and yes, I know other countries have limits that are different according to the ages of both participants, so do we in effect, if Forrest were 17 he would not be prosecuted)?

flippinada Fri 21-Jun-13 16:49:31

I this'll the sentence was appropriate - my fear was he would get a slap on the wrist.

Berts I think anyone who reads your post (and SomeDizzy's earlier) and still defends this awful man/victim blames - well there's something wrong with them. I appreciate your thoughtfulness, honesty and insight.

Maryz Fri 21-Jun-13 16:49:43

imnotmymum, you should really go back and read your own posts on this thread. They are quite extraordinary.

The old "I'm alright Jack, pity about the rest of you" is horrible to read.

Berts flowers

flippinada Fri 21-Jun-13 16:50:30

I think - stupid autocorrect.

Sad but exactly echoes my own experiences and those of many other victims Berts. Big hug to you x

runningforthebusinheels Fri 21-Jun-13 16:51:11

Imnotmymum - you are essentially victim blaming here. Do you mean to?

You are implying that it's Bert's fault that she was not strong enough, or "realistic" enough to deal with her teacher grooming her for a sexual relationship when she was a vulnerable (underage) teenager. hmm

Put the blame squarely where it belongs - with the groomer taking advantage - the teacher - the ADULT.

imnotmymum Fri 21-Jun-13 16:52:57

I never said that. Just do not presume she will be a wreck. I am sorry Berts for your ordeal and I was not saying sod the rest of you. Maybe you should read things properly and not read between the lines and come up with your own judgement.

FeegleFion Fri 21-Jun-13 16:53:08

imnotmymum
"Of course she was in a position to make a free choice."

This, is neither a balanced nor reasonable view, in context.

imnotmymum Fri 21-Jun-13 16:54:56

And no not victim blaming. Just saying I was as part of my relationship as he was. I was not a victim but a fundamental part. I could easily blame him for being older bit I do not. Not saying I am in a better position but that is just my personality. The girl may be the same-maybe not. Just do not look too far into the future.

runningforthebusinheels Fri 21-Jun-13 16:56:13

Just do not presume she will be a wreck

It's a high risk among teenagers who have been groomed by older men. Especially when that man abuses a position of authority over them. Bert (and others) have illustrated that very eloquently here - but you dismiss it. Why?

Catlike Fri 21-Jun-13 16:56:48

I'd invested so much of my own identity in it, I had lied to everyone I loved, cut myself off from my family, lost almost all my friends and been horrifically bullied, so I HAD to believe that it had been worth it, that it really was true love.

But it wasn't. It was a teenage crush and, if he hadn't done everything he could to encourage it, it would have petered out like any other teenage crush. Maybe I would have dated boys my own age and had normal experiences of a first relationship.

Berts, I'm so sorry this happened to you. This is what the apologists don't seem to get. That 'relationships' like this turn the young person's whole world upside down.

When Forrest took this girl away, she became the subject of nationwide scandal. Even though her name wasn't mentioned during the court case, everybody knows who she is. The notoriety is going to follow her around for years. He must have known that that would be the inevitable result of her disappearing overseas with him. If he really cared for her, surely he'd never have made her the subject of public scrutiny in that way.

She's become estranged from her family because of what's happened. Ok, there may have been problems already - very common with teenagers and their parents. But this whole affair (sorry, don't mean it in the love sense) appears to have caused a complete breakdown in her relationship with her family. How can that not be utterly devastating for a young teenager?

And this was her GCSE year. A time in a young person's life when disruption, upheaval, stress, family breakup etc are the very last thing they need to be dealing with on top of intense study and worry about exams hmm

He is such a selfish bastard to have set a bomb under a young girl's life like this. If he had a shred of decency, he'd insist that she didn't waste another day of her life on him.

imnotmymum Fri 21-Jun-13 16:58:46

Because as humans we all different. I am not, not, not dismissing it and have stated that if she needs help then I hope she gets it to have a normal fulfilling life. However I was just pickING up on the point that people were saying poor girl. She may be fine. Blown out of proportion my comments. Totally.

kitty1976 Fri 21-Jun-13 17:01:00

Of course she had free choice, as imnotmymum we can't presume her life will be ruined by this. 5 and a half years is too harsh

Berts Fri 21-Jun-13 17:01:26

I'm not 'presuming' she will be a wreck, I'm saying that my experience and the experience of others I've talked to demonstrates that these kind of relationships are often exploitative and scarring. That's why they're illegal.

Even if this girl is fine and dandy, happy as a clam for the rest of her life and marries this guy and has fat babies, doesn't mean it shouldn't be illegal.

In the opinion of the NSPCC, and various other child protection experts quoted in the newspapers today, these kind of relationships are often exploitative and damaging. If there are exceptions, they shouldn't make the rules.

And for what it's worth, I'm not 'a wreck'. I'm upset today because this has been in the news and I do carry scars from what happened, but I also have a lovely husband, a gorgeous DD and a good career, and - as my DH puts it - 'the lucky capacity to be happy'.

Berts Fri 21-Jun-13 17:03:30

Argh, got to go now, sign off, sign off!

Maryz Fri 21-Jun-13 17:03:35

You are saying that because one 15 year old can come out ok from a situation like this, then they all might.

But the fact is that they all don't. Some, like Berts and many others, have their lives ruined. Just because you are ok (and I'm beginning to wonder whether you really are confused), you think everyone else should be.

Go and read your comments again, and see whether they are blown out of proportion angry

Maryz Fri 21-Jun-13 17:04:41

Berts, don't be upset. We need people like to to talk up for those who can't. Have some flowers and a glass of wine.

imnotmymum Fri 21-Jun-13 17:06:27

So there you go Berts. My point I was not being unsympathetic was that all may end well for her-as for you as you sound like you have a lovely life. It was perhaps the terms you used that made it sound that you were still in a bad place.

imnotmymum Fri 21-Jun-13 17:07:36

Well her life is not ruined. She has a loving family.

josephinebruce Fri 21-Jun-13 17:07:50

It is really terrifying, reading some of these posts. Can't believe that people actually think this is acceptable. There's one hell of a difference between 2 teenagers having sex and an adult seducing a child.

Just do not presume she will be a wreck.
She was already self-harming, she's now estranged from her mother, she's infamous -she'll be fine. hmm

Catlike Fri 21-Jun-13 17:08:46

BTW I think that smug look that Jeremy was wearing on the way in/out of court was that predatory men generally believe that all men are like them.

He's probably kidding himself that men are looking at him in envy at the moment, because secretly they'd all like to have authority and control over 15 yr old girls in order to groom them for sex. That's how men like him justify their actions they're just doing what all men would like to do

Sadly, I think a hell of a lot of men do think like that. And I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he's getting loads of approval in prison as opposed to the hostility that abusers of younger children would experience.

He's probably quite happy with the turn of events. Family and friends sticking by him. Probably been promised a job when he gets out by one of them. Young victim still in thrall to him and he can possibly rely on his family to encourage her to continue the relationship. And she's estranged from her family now, which makes her less likely to be talked out of waiting for him. And lots of pats on the back and 'man points' in jail.

flippinada Fri 21-Jun-13 17:09:09

Wow, what a nasty comment. You really are a piece of work imnot.

runningforthebusinheels Fri 21-Jun-13 17:09:45

She's not fine though, is she? She was troubled before she ran away with Forrest. It was this vulnerability that he took advantage of. It suits him that people talk of 'forbidden love' and 'Romeo & Juliet' as that adds a romantic gloss over his grooming of a troubled child.

Imnotmymum, I believe you said that in your relationship at 15 with a 28yr old he was not your teacher, or in a position of authority over you. This makes all the difference. The law is there for good reason.