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To be disappointed in my dp re Nigella Lawson?

(92 Posts)
GirlWiththeLionHeart Sun 16-Jun-13 20:25:06

I told my dp about what happened to Nigella Lawson via email and said how horrible and abusive her husband is and he should be arrested.

My dp's response:

'But without knowing why he grabbed her by the throat how can you judge? It is terrible but if she did something terrible for him to grab her? What if she told him she had been having an affair?'

'I'm sure they didn't sit down, order food then all of a sudden he reaches over and grabs her by the throat, if he did that's awful, but what if she really pissed him off?

'Violence is a terrible thing but sometimes it is warranted, regardless of who it comes from'

confused confused sad

I was pretty speechless tbh and still hours later I feel really upset. Of course I said you NEVER put your hands on someone, no matter what they say or do. I'm just shocked he thinks like this.

WHBU?

LifeofPo Sun 16-Jun-13 20:25:59

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GemmaTeller Sun 16-Jun-13 20:28:02

Your DH is def BU.

I told my DH and he was shocked, he said there is no excuse ever to behave like that.

Shame on Charles Sacchi

CaptainKirksNipples Sun 16-Jun-13 20:28:10

He is being unreasonable. And a bit cuntish.

No you're not being unreasonable. If I were you I think I would be saying again that his view is unacceptable and if he ever lays a finger on you - 'provoked' or not then you will ask him to leave. Violence is a terrible thing. That's the end of the sentence.

Salmotrutta Sun 16-Jun-13 20:28:48

Your DPs response speaks volumes about him.

How on earth can violence ever be "warranted"?? hmm

diddl Sun 16-Jun-13 20:30:16

Sometimes violence is warranted?

Bloody hell!

DH said he would have intervened. He was shocked that no one did and said it made him feel extremely sad!

That us what I would expect from anyone.

GirlWiththeLionHeart Sun 16-Jun-13 20:31:04

It's made me a bit worried tbh sad

I said, so if I said something you didnt like is it ok to strangle me? He said 'No. There should be no violence regardless of where it takes place. But there will be times when people feel the need to react and to say they're wrong without knowing why they did it is unwise'

ParadiseChick Sun 16-Jun-13 20:31:09

Gosh I had no idea this has happened.

He is being unreasonable.

ImperialBlether Sun 16-Jun-13 20:31:33

LifeOfPo is right. Sorry, OP, but your husband is an idiot.

carabos Sun 16-Jun-13 20:31:49

Dh's response was "didn't anyone try to stop him?".

GirlWiththeLionHeart Sun 16-Jun-13 20:32:20

Me too madame

We are polar opposites here and it's made me really upset.

My brother tried to make me feel better by saying people don't always agree on things. But to me, this is a pretty big thing.

SirBoobAlot Sun 16-Jun-13 20:32:41

Honestly? I would no longer feel safe with someone who has basically just said that one day, you might do something when he feels it's okay to wrap his hands around your throat.

Panzee Sun 16-Jun-13 20:33:12

My dad who is a dinosaur in many ways declared that Saatchi needed "a kicking" for that behaviour. I thought he was ace for saying that. (Yes I know it's violence but like I said my dad can be a dinosaur grin )

Jeez red flags would be flying if my dh said what yours has.
No-one should be grabbed by the throat for any reason!!!

WeleaseWodger Sun 16-Jun-13 20:36:48

I'd just as casually add that if it were you, would call the police on anyone who tried that - including your father or your husband - and would feel no guilt for the criminal record, possible loss of job etc fallout in his life. Make him aware where your line in the sand is.

raisah Sun 16-Jun-13 20:38:39

unfortunately your dps virws are q common, people of all age ranges do think that dv is acceptable if provoked. If Charles Scaatchi had attempted to strangle anybody else, people would have.intervened & called the police but they didnt because it was his wife. Regardless of the relationship between the two people involved, a criminal act took place & should be treated as such.

ArthurCucumber Sun 16-Jun-13 20:40:46

Christ, that is actually scary. He has basically said that if a woman - you, for example, told your dp that (let's say) you wanted to end the relationship, he might consider that to be a "terrible thing". And if a woman tells her husband a "terrible thing", then violence against her is "warranted".

iklboo Sun 16-Jun-13 20:43:58

Ah, yes. The 'she asked for it' defence. Up there with 'it's her own fault, she was winding me up'. hmm

PrettyKitty1986 Sun 16-Jun-13 20:44:28

Tbh the first paragraph I completely agree with.

God knows what would happen if everyone was judged on one snapshot of their lives. Violence is not acceptable but nor are many things. And mitigating circumstances can exist.

How long have you been with him?

I would also see this as a pretty big red flag tbh.

GirlWiththeLionHeart Sun 16-Jun-13 20:48:04

To be honest I'm not surprised. Thinking about it, he was brought up by a abusive and mentally ill mother who he had physical fights with up until his twenties. She would provoke him very badly where he would have to restrain her.
His father wasn't around that much. I guess it's had a lasting effect. I'm not making excuses as I'm really upset but can see reasons why he thinks like this.
He also said why is it ok for women to hit men but not the other way? I said domestic or any violence is never ok.

Nobody taught him these things I guess sad

BaconKetchup Sun 16-Jun-13 20:49:30

This reminds me of a while ago when I made a reference in passing to Chris Brown and how awfully he behaved and my friend (young, female) replied 'well you don't know both sides or the whole story, maybe she was being a bitch or something'

Attitudes like this are more common than we would hope sad

YANBU

GirlWiththeLionHeart Sun 16-Jun-13 20:49:36

PrettyKitty I agreed with him up until the word judge in the first paragraph.

Been together 4 years and have a ds

GirlWiththeLionHeart Sun 16-Jun-13 20:50:17

If he thinks he's sprouting this shit to my son he's got another thing coming.

RoooneyMara Sun 16-Jun-13 20:53:52

He has probably never thought it through.

Cabbageleaves Sun 16-Jun-13 20:55:25

I think many people can't quite compute DV. It seems so removed from their lives that they assume there must be some back story, trigger etc because its otherwise unbelievable... Their comments are ridiculous because there is never an accepptable reason for DV but I don't think they really analyse it and thus a casual remark is possibly not a great thing to judge them on. Not good but not necessarily carrying the condemnation you might otherwise give it.

Cabbageleaves Sun 16-Jun-13 20:56:08

Or what Rooney said more succinctly!

GirlWiththeLionHeart Sun 16-Jun-13 21:02:37

I hope that's what it is

ClaireBeauchamp Sun 16-Jun-13 21:18:24

SirBoobAlot

Honestly? I would no longer feel safe with someone who has basically just said that one day, you might do something when he feels it's okay to
wrap his hands around your throat.

100% agree. You have seen his true colours. If you do something to 'warrant' it will it be his hands around your neck?

Viviennemary Sun 16-Jun-13 21:21:44

Nobody knows what goes on behind closed doors. but I was a bit shocked at this happening in public. I wonder what's behind it.

creighton Sun 16-Jun-13 21:21:52

i've been wondering what saatchi is like at home if he is moved to assault her in public like that.

He's contradicting himself, too.

"There should be no violence regardless of where it takes place." - so it's wrong, then, full stop.

"But there will be times when people feel the need to react and to say they're wrong without knowing why they did it is unwise" - so, what, it suddenly isn't wrong, after all (even though a moment ago it was)? Or it is still wrong but it's "unwise" to say so?

Your best possible outcome here, OP, is that he doesn't fully know what he thinks about it and is still fumbling towards a coherent position that might end up being the right one. But even then it's not good.

WMittens Sun 16-Jun-13 21:55:37

My dad who is a dinosaur in many ways declared that Saatchi needed "a kicking" for that behaviour. I thought he was ace for saying that. (Yes I know it's violence but like I said my dad can be a dinosaur )

I think this may be an example of the perception of (some) men (and how it is different to women) and mixing up terminology.

Take this phrase for example: "so-and-so deserved a kicking."
True, some may mean it this way (varying with context and how aggressive the person making the statement is).
Others may actually mean "provoked" instead of "deserved" - this is still a very unpleasant point of view.

The pivot of this view is the difference between reality and utopia - in a utopic sense, there is no 'provocation' (or risk of provocation) because there would be no violent response. In reality, what they mean is it's a case of accepting that violent people exist, and you may or may not be in the presence of a violent person and say or do something that incenses that person.

Ultimately, no, violence is never* right and never deserved and your partner is either very unreasonable or inarticulate.

*very rarely, unless we're talking about overthrowing despots.

ARealDame Sun 16-Jun-13 22:10:51

I agree with your husband, we don't know the full story, and working oneself into a sheer frenzy of hatred and retribution without it, seems very dodgy to me.

AnyFucker Sun 16-Jun-13 22:15:10

For some strange reason, Nigella's experience seems to be drawing out the Bottom Feeders

I wonder why that is ?

Panzee Sun 16-Jun-13 22:19:46

WMittens I think you're reading too much into my father's statement. And incorrectly confusing him with OP's husband's pov. And I said needed, not my dad (note quote marks).

GirlWiththeLionHeart Sun 16-Jun-13 22:23:08

What's a bottom feeder, AF?

AnyFucker Sun 16-Jun-13 22:23:56

Lowest common denominator

GirlWiththeLionHeart Sun 16-Jun-13 22:28:05

I bet his friends would recoil in horror at him. I think I'm going to bring it up during next counselling session.

AnyFucker Sun 16-Jun-13 22:29:20

Why are you having counselling?

GirlWiththeLionHeart Sun 16-Jun-13 22:33:29

New baby, lots of stress and arguments. Just thought it might help settle things. Things have been much better since we've been going. Still bringing this up next time. I think it's too late to change a thirty something's viewpoints though

Mimishimi Sun 16-Jun-13 22:35:14

YANBU and personally, I would find it worrisome that he thinks sometimes domestic violence can be justified. For Ms. Lawson's husband to lose control like this in public, who the hell knows what goes on behind closed doors?

WorraLiberty Sun 16-Jun-13 22:38:09

Are you married to Dennis Waterman?

joanofarchitrave Sun 16-Jun-13 22:48:56

Lots of people change their views all their lives. I changed my view on something quite big just last year, and I'm in my 40s (and still grappling with it tbh!) My dh approved of smacking children until he was 40, but I made it clear this would NEVER happen to a child I had responsibility for for a lot of reasons I won't go into here, and he now says he agrees with me.

I would argue it out with him. I think you can judge when a person holds another person's throat. You absolutely can. Does he really think he can't? If he had a daughter, would he be happy for her partner to 'react' in this way to something she said? Would he think this was a 'reaction' or a violent method of control? I would have a better view of his real opinions than this. I don't think he's thought it through. So help him.

ImperialBlether Mon 17-Jun-13 00:22:05

Wait a couple of weeks until he's forgotten about this, then say, "Oh I meant to tell you. I saw your mum in Starbucks the other day. She was sitting with her next door neighbour. It was so odd - he was trying to strangle her. I wonder what she'd said to upset him?"

HullMum Mon 17-Jun-13 04:55:24

your dh probably thinks women who have been raped probably did something really horrible to deserve it like wearing a skirt or something.

get a new partner. there are like 3billion men in this world. get one who isn't just waiting for a good enough reason to throttle you.

GirlWiththeLionHeart Mon 17-Jun-13 08:12:42

Hull I did ask him that funnily enough to show that it's very similar in that it blames the victim. He said 'No that's just abuse' confused

GirlWiththeLionHeart Mon 17-Jun-13 08:13:29

He said that if someone was to rape someone because of what they were wearing they must be psychotic

SoupDragon Mon 17-Jun-13 08:17:14

If she had done something like pulled a knife on him then I guess it could be justified.

But that's not what happened here and it's not what happened in 99.9999% of other DV cases.

Dackyduddles Mon 17-Jun-13 08:21:12

I'd be sadly questioning my marriage if I were u.....

WMittens Mon 17-Jun-13 08:52:22

Panzee

It's not so much about reading into your father's statement (and not aimed at your father), but the difference between men's and women's attitudes - I hear/read a lot of men stating "a good kicking" is a deserved punishment.

The confusion (and it may not be confusion, it may just be scum and not-scum) occurs between retribution for a criminal act (like your father's statement: Saachi needs a kicking as punishment for a criminal act) and DV apologists (like (possibly) the OP's husband: the victim is blamed as they 'provoked' the perpetrator).

mignonette Mon 17-Jun-13 08:58:41

My DH was very distressed by those photographs and urged me to report to the police. However this has apparently been done already.

Violence is never warranted. However it is an 'understandable' response in the context of an emotionally illiterate, violent, aggressive total piece of shit that is Charles Saatchi. It is all he is capable of.

Think about that hand round the throat everyone when considering whether the Saatchi Gallery is somewhere you wish to visit or have your products sold in its online shop.

Justfornowitwilldo Mon 17-Jun-13 09:05:25

'My DH was very distressed by those photographs'

Exactly my DH's reaction too. Shocked and appalled.

ll31 Mon 17-Jun-13 09:13:40

Think the comments about leaving him etc are over the top. You know your dp,how he behaves ,who he really is etc not random people on net. actions speak. Louder than words in my opinion.

I would be nervous to be in a relationship with someone who can justify domestic violence. Keep a mental note of this incident OP, and if you end up having to add a few other mental notes maybe reassess if he's the kind of person you want in your life?

fromparistoberlin Mon 17-Jun-13 10:12:44

I am SO upset by those photos

she is such a clever accomplished lady, and yet.. there he is abusing her in a public place. fucking CUNT.

and in DM online, there is an older photo for him putting his hand over her mouth

I think in a way its a good thing, despite the public humiliation she can no longer deny it, there will be a major outcry of LTB

really feel for her though, not only for being abused but for the publicity

good luck Nigella

MissStrawberry Mon 17-Jun-13 11:54:59

Obviously what CS did was totally wrong and indefensible but to answer the OP's DH while the first time might have been because she just said she had shagged his son/brother/nephew how does the OP's DH justify the subsequent attacks?

EldritchCleavage Mon 17-Jun-13 12:02:23

It is a troubling reaction. My DH's reaction was to have empathy for Nigella. Like me, he found seeing the expression on her face (afraid, but also somehow resigned) very upsetting.

Sometimes those kinds of reaction are more about distancing a thing the person finds hard to deal with than endorsing or excusing the behaviour, but it's a very fine line, and a poor reaction nevertheless.

SixPackWellies Mon 17-Jun-13 12:04:14

My DH was also horrified by the photos.

OP.... your DP had an abusive upbringing so his ideas of what might be acceptable are a bit 'off' as you have identified. But you have also said that he is shocked at some things, so it might just be that he really needs to have his assumptions, challenged, and to be educated, for the want of a better word. My DMother had a terribly abusive upbringing, so her idea of what is normal is skewed.

limitedperiodonly Mon 17-Jun-13 12:14:26

If he's ever convicted of assault, which is what grabbing someone who's posing no physical threat is, he can tell the rest of it to the judge.

ohthedandy Mon 17-Jun-13 12:16:29

I agree with SixPack. Hopefully your counselling sessions are addressing his past as well as your current relationship, or maybe he needs separate counselling to help him with those past issues with his mother.

Not an LTB situation I don't think - he needs to understand where his viewpoint comes from, and how he can take steps to change it.

Fakebook Mon 17-Jun-13 12:20:18

Although I am absolutely sickened by those pictures and at what allegedly happened, I can't help but wonder about this man and his age. He's 70 years old, has become a bit of a recluse and is throttling his wife in public. The way she's looking at him is pitiful. I think he might be suffering from Alzheimer's or early onset dementia. He's not young is he. If he's not, then he's an utter arsehole.

EldritchCleavage Mon 17-Jun-13 12:24:58

I wondered that too Fakebook, and then I thought a bit more and wondered if I was just grasping at anything rather than saying he was just a violent, abusive shit. It could be lots of things, but plenty of 'normal' men of all ages and classes abuse their wives, so the likelihood is that's what's going on here. It is amazing how horrible it is to be confronted with the stark reality of that.

badtime Mon 17-Jun-13 12:29:49

I think your partner is probably confused about what isacceptable. If he was brought up in an abusive environment, he could well be extrapolating from his own experiences. He probably needs to do some more work to come to terms with his upbringing.

People can and do change their opinions on things like this all the time. As you are already undergoing counselling, he is in a better position to resolve this than most (as many DV apologists would reject the idea of counselling out of hand).

GobbySadcase Mon 17-Jun-13 12:32:55

So, you're on warning.
One day you might do something he considers worthy of violence towards you.

Are you going to tolerate that?

peggotty Mon 17-Jun-13 12:34:53

Why are so many people asking if it could be dementia? I've seen this in other threads. Is it so hard to believe that someone who is by all accounts, a bit of a shit, could be doing this for his own sick reasons. Dementia does not automatically make people violent, that's a misconception. Even if it is that, it's not a reason for her to put up with it.

fromparistoberlin Mon 17-Jun-13 12:40:33

dementia? dementia my arse

he writes books and articles, and his book came out in 2013

he ios an abusive cunt. end of

Fillyjonk75 Mon 17-Jun-13 12:41:40

I agree that people can change their views and society can. A lot of men (and women) hold sexist views which they don't realise are sexist until they are called on it and the point is explained to them. DH can be a bit traditional about some things. Let's say he has changed his views about quite a lot of things over the years! As have I by going on forums like this.

A lot of men who would never sexually harass women, for example, find it hard to believe the harassment women regularly receive. The Everyday Sexism project has been an eye opener for some.

Fakebook Mon 17-Jun-13 12:52:46

No I'm not saying that he's not capable of being an abusive twat. He may well be, and my first instincts told me that too. He most probably is. But I can't help ignore his age. My dad makes some horrible comments due to his dementia and I know it can completely change a persons personality. I'm in no way defending what he did either.

RoooneyMara Mon 17-Jun-13 13:16:05

He's apparently released a statement:

'However, breaking his silence about the incident, Mr Saatchi today issued a statement in which he sought to play down the significance of the row.

“About a week ago, we were sitting outside a restaurant having an intense debate about the children, and I held Nigella’s neck repeatedly while attempting to emphasise my point,” he told the Evening Standard.

“There was no grip, it was a playful tiff. The pictures are horrific but give a far more drastic and violent impression of what took place. Nigella’s tears were because we both hate arguing, not because she had been hurt.

“We had made up by the time we were home. The paparazzi were congregated outside our house after the story broke yesterday morning, so I told Nigella to take the kids off till the dust settled.” '

hmm

Plomino Mon 17-Jun-13 13:22:53

A picture is worth a thousand words .

Worth far more than that wankers , for a start .

Ain't nothing playful about the look on her face , and WHO holds someone neck to emphasise a point ?? And I 'told' Nigella ? Really ?

Fakebook Mon 17-Jun-13 13:26:36

Hmm. Maybe I was wrong then.

Not sure what kind of point needs to be emphasised with throttling hmm.

Normal people do not hold someone's neck repeatedly during an intense discussion in order to emphasise a point. It's entirely possible that neither CS nor NL realises that, of course.

thezebrawearspurple Mon 17-Jun-13 16:29:46

Well I agree with him, you can't judge a situation if you're not there. Most likely he's a violent dick but perhaps there is a more innocent explanation or unusual circumstances. You don't unless you were right next to them and you weren't. Any situation can be taken out of context when viewed from afar. That's not a justification for anything, it's a simple fact. Your dp is right.

PoppyAmex Mon 17-Jun-13 16:36:15

"I agree with your husband, we don't know the full story, and working oneself into a sheer frenzy of hatred and retribution without it, seems very dodgy to me."

ARealDame, no what's dodgy and extremely damaging is to insinuate that man's actions are in any way justifiable.

The "the full story" is a heinous criminal act committed in public and documented.

PoppyAmex Mon 17-Jun-13 16:39:27

"Well I agree with him, you can't judge a situation if you're not there. Most likely he's a violent dick but perhaps there is a more innocent explanation or unusual circumstances. You don't unless you were right next to them and you weren't."

brazen don't be so ridiculous; does that mean you don't have a position on any event you didn't personally witness? hmm

Nothing "innocent" there - there's an agression and a crying woman at the end. angry

AnyFucker Mon 17-Jun-13 17:56:00

well, Mr Saatchi has now told it was a "playful tiff" so we have our answer, don't we ?

we can stop worrying about yet another woman in a dangerous and damaging situation

< phew >

olathelawyer05 Mon 17-Jun-13 19:27:10

"But without knowing why he grabbed her by the throat how can you judge?.....Violence is a terrible thing but sometimes it is warranted, regardless of who it comes from"

These specific sentences are fair enough. You can't 'judge' unless you know the full circumstances and yes, violence may well be justified in the case of self defence/defence of others for example - not saying that's what happened in this case as I haven't seen it.

The other parts (i.e. essentially the 'examples' that he gives) are just wrong though. It is no more right for man to strangle his wife for having an affair than it is for her to slap him for having an affair. Strange thing is, people don't tend to be appalled by the latter do they? The impression I often get is that its OK for a girl to slap her guy if he has an affair.

ImperialBlether Mon 17-Jun-13 20:21:53

I think a slap from a woman is different to choking by a man. I've never slapped anyone when I've been in a temper (or otherwise) but if I did, they wouldn't wonder whether they were going to die. Most men are stronger than most women. They might not want to get physical in order to get away but they could.

If someone had his hands around my throat, I would panic that I was going to die. I wouldn't feel strong enough to fight off a man who had his hands at my throat. I would feel absolutely vulnerable, as though my life depended on his next move.

IneedAsockamnesty Mon 17-Jun-13 20:49:42

One of the most common assaults I deal with is women who have been grabbed round the throat by a partner.

Its also one of the reasons why domestic abuse kills frequently

Another name for it is strangulation.

IneedAsockamnesty Mon 17-Jun-13 20:50:50

If someone had his hands around my throat, I would panic that I was going to die. I wouldn't feel strong enough to fight off a man who had his hands at my throat. I would feel absolutely vulnerable, as though my life depended on his next move

And there we have exactly the reason why its such a frequent move made by abusers

GirlWiththeLionHeart Mon 17-Jun-13 20:57:06

sad

ParadiseChick Mon 17-Jun-13 20:59:20

I just had a look at the pictures, she looked so scared and the tears afterwards. Awful.

Lweji Mon 17-Jun-13 21:05:23

Well, these days, if a man grabbed my throat, then he shouldn't be surprised to have his groin kneed, and his face elbowed, followed by a hammer punch to his face and possibly his wrist twisted behind his back.

Anyway, to your P, OP, restraining is different from grabbing a throat.

I certainly hope he reflects on the subject and changes his mind.

olathelawyer05 Mon 17-Jun-13 21:10:25

@ImperialBlether: "...I think a slap from a woman is different to choking by a man. I've never slapped anyone when I've been in a temper (or otherwise) but if I did, they wouldn't wonder whether they were going to die. Most men are stronger than most women. They might not want to get physical in order to get away but they could..."

You may think it is "different", but it is no more justifiable is it?

If relative 'strength' had anything to do with it, then we would be equally appalled if a big man slapped/choked a small man... but we rarely are. Please stop trying to play down violence perpetrated by a women.

Lweji Mon 17-Jun-13 21:10:38
fromparistoberlin Mon 17-Jun-13 22:08:15

well, Mr Saatchi has now told it was a "playful tiff" so we have our answer, don't we ?

exactly! the bloody gall of him. ergh, poor nigella even more really

Mimishimi Mon 17-Jun-13 22:10:07

Playful tiff? Nonsense, there were no smiles in those photos. We all saw a tearful, frightened woman. I do so hope she has the good sense to look past the money and stay the hell away from him .. permanently.

ImperialBlether Mon 17-Jun-13 22:27:20

Ola, I'm not downplaying any violence at all. I think there is a qualitative difference between being choked and being slapped. I'm shocked whenever someone is choked, whether they are male or female. I think it's shocking that it's part of some people's sex lives, too.

SBAustralia Tue 18-Jun-13 05:38:44

That's a pretty big tell...if you do something to piss him off is he going to think it completely reasonable to react with violence? Personally I would be out of there. No man is worth sticking with if he has such blasé attitudes towards violence!

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