To feel a little sorry for the 7 children benefits Mum.

(1000 Posts)
MilgramsLittleHelper Wed 12-Jun-13 11:19:38

www.itv.com/daybreak/hottopics/benefits-mum/

Is just seems like another bit of benefit bashing to me.

I know she shouldn't have had children she couldn't afford, but what hope of improving her lot???

propertyNIGHTmareBEFOREXMAS Wed 12-Jun-13 11:30:22

It is very sad for the children and I feel sorry for them.
I don't feel sorry for the mother and the father/s.

tungthai Wed 12-Jun-13 11:40:11

I fail to see how living on £2k per month is impossible.

ghayes Wed 12-Jun-13 11:40:21

She shouldn't have had them. It really isn't benefit bashing, it's totally irresponsible behaviour bashing.

Abra1d Wed 12-Jun-13 11:43:42

I don't feel sorry for her. I feel sorry for other people who made less reckless life choices and are being affected by the cuts.

cantspel Wed 12-Jun-13 11:45:21

Feel sorry for the children but she is just an irresponsible drain on society

youmeatsix Wed 12-Jun-13 11:46:31

you know she shouldnt have had them but what? we would have loved more children, we knew we could raise, educate and pay for 3 children, so we had 3 children. now all 3 are at university, its a good job we didnt have more, but then we didnt have the "let taxpayers pay for our children" mentality

moogy1a Wed 12-Jun-13 11:51:26

£2K a mon th is impossible to live on? Really? self entitled scrounger

ChunkyPickle Wed 12-Jun-13 11:51:33

The children are here, and shouldn't be punished for their parents' thoughtlessness (and both parents are at fault here - why is it the mother that's getting it in the neck?).

However 2k a month really is enough - apart from singletons, every single kid I knew growing up shared a bedroom, she could save a couple of hundred a month just by downsizing the house she's living in (along with the associated reductions in bills etc.).

ilovechips Wed 12-Jun-13 11:51:33

Daybreak certainly does its fair share of goading on this topic!

I have sympathy for her kids, what kind of work ethic are they learning? But no sympathy for her or the children's father. The rest of us have to drag ourselves out of bed, and lots of people go to a job they hate, often for considerably less than 2k a month take home money. Over the past few years a benefits/tax credits culture has developed, and to many benefits are now seen as a lifestyle choice, not a safety net to see people through hard times.

We cannot afford more than 2 children, so we dont have more than 2.

I agree it is not benefit bashing, it is bashing irresponsible behavior.

eminemmerdale Wed 12-Jun-13 11:53:03

She spent a lot of time talking about how it was the 'fathers' (plural fault for not paying her, not hers.

frissonpink Wed 12-Jun-13 11:53:56

I also fail to see how she can't live on £2000 a month, given I'm guessing her rent gets paid, and she doesn't pay council tax...

The last 'benefits mum' on day time tv turned out to be an actress. I wouldn't believe the details of this story after that one.

eminemmerdale Wed 12-Jun-13 11:59:28

I think the rent is part of the £2000, but it equates as £76 per person per week in that house, which I think is probably fairly reasonable.

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 11:59:30

7 children shock

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 12:00:05

Another benefit bashing thread hmm

I struggle to make ends meet with both my DP and I in FT jobs but I'd much rather see a refreshing break from this continual bashing of the most vulnerable in society and focus on the bankers and tax avoiders instead.

Meh!

To be fair eminemmerdale he was also bringing all those kids into the world, and he wasn't carrying them, birthing them and feeding them. She is pretty much stuck for the time being, she can't go to work, having seven children must be the equivalent of two full time jobs at least, and childcare for the younger ones means it wouldn't be worth her giving their care to other people.

But the father isn't tied to the house and kids, clearly, because he walked away. He should be doing a lot better than contributing 'the occasional fiver'. He was sensible enough to keep himself out of the firing line though. I don't know how they persuade these women to turn themselves into national hate figures.

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 12:03:23

ItsallFeegle is it not possible to address two things at the same time?

ophelia275 Wed 12-Jun-13 12:03:35

I feel sorry for all the taxpayers that have stopped at 1 or 2 kids because that is all they could afford on their wage, yet their tax is going to support a woman with 7 kids who doesn't work. We have a ridiculous system in the UK which encourages people to have children without the means to afford them.

Lonelybunny Wed 12-Jun-13 12:04:04

i dont feel sorry for her ,she should be responsible and its been too easy the past for people to reproduce vast number of children so they can continue to sit at home . However £2000 per month I don't think is a lot these days? we are struggling on just over that and we both work , it doesn't stretch far.

propertyNIGHTmareBEFOREXMAS Wed 12-Jun-13 12:04:33

The father/s is/are to blame, as much as she is. Seven is a huge number of children. It is obvious that it is a stupid, reckless and irresponsible idea to have that many unless you are very financially secure for the longterm. If we all behaved like this then the UK would be bankrupt and children would be lying starving in the street. It is right to condemn and bash such socially destructive behaviour.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 12:05:30

Bacon It surely is, however, this is the type of thread I see regularly not the other hmm

ShadeofViolet Wed 12-Jun-13 12:07:49

The saddest thing is that the children seem so aware of the situation.

HeySoulSister Wed 12-Jun-13 12:08:45

£2000 a month? She will be getting a bit more than that

catgirl1976 Wed 12-Jun-13 12:10:36

YANBU

I feel sorry for her.

We don't know what drove her to have 7 children. Perhaps she has emotional issues, perhaps she had an abusive DH who wouldn't allow contraception / termination. Perhaps she didn't have the cognitive or emotional capacity to make a decision not to have any more children.

We don't know. So why we think it's fine to judge the poor woman is beyond me.

McNewPants2013 Wed 12-Jun-13 12:11:13

Why can't she go to work.

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 12:11:21

Has this kicked off yet??? grin

Stupid woman. Stupid father/s. Poor children.

Perhaps she will go get a job now?
ItsallFeegle - It is the way people feel. And this is not a benefit bashing thread (yet) but bashing their irresponsibility as parents.

Floggingmolly Wed 12-Jun-13 12:11:37

Perhaps she should have attempted to "improve her lot" before having seven children?
A six bedroomed house is beyond the reach of most people.

ophelia275 Wed 12-Jun-13 12:12:02

Itsallfeegle. How is she "vulnerable"? That word gets bandied around way too much. She is getting £32k a year, tax free without lifting a finger. The real vulnerable ones are those that go out to work full time to earn a pittance in order to pay for people like her who abuse the system.

catgirl1976 Wed 12-Jun-13 12:12:45

Imagine the childcare costs if she did go to work.

Kaluki Wed 12-Jun-13 12:13:13

I struggle to make ends meet with both my DP and I in FT jobs but I'd much rather see a refreshing break from this continual bashing of the most vulnerable in society and focus on the bankers and tax avoiders instead.

This is so true. Always on Daybreak or in the Daily Mail - same old story rehashed over and over.
Of course it's wrong to be able to have that many dc and expect the state to pay for them but the tax avoidance by companies such as Amazon and Starbucks etc is also wrong and costs the country a lot more.

ShadeofViolet Wed 12-Jun-13 12:14:53

Imagine the childcare costs if she did go to work.

To be fair, the older ones may be able to help with that. The way the oldest DD was carrying the younger one in that clip looks like she was quite used to looking after him.

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 12:16:25

It doesn't always involve childcare costs.

Many people work shifts. Do the children see their fathers? He could have them and she could work a night or 2. No childcare costs involved. There are ways and means......

Davsmum Wed 12-Jun-13 12:19:08

I think the mother was not on her own when she had the 7 children. Her husband has only contributed an odd £5 or so here and there.

Some people find themselves in a situation they never planned. It IS daft and in some cases reckless.
As the mother said - getting a job is not THAT easy. She lives in one of the worst areas for unemployment through no jobs. She needs to re-train to improve her chances and she also has a child who has problems and some condition that means he is sent home from school often and at short notice.
If she does work, most of her earnings will go on childcare. Her earnings will probably be minimum wage.

The lady has not worked for 15 years - those years pass quickly when you have children. There could also be an issue of lack of confidence and fear.

No - its not ideal and yes, its a pain we have families in this situation but its very easy to sit back in judgement when you do not have those experiences yourself and to say 'well I do this and don't do that'

Good for you. Not everyone though has the education or the common sense that many of us are blessed with. Personally - I feel lucky that I am not in that position - I don't expect everyone to be as capable or sensible just because I am.

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 12:20:03

Although tax avoidance from big companies is a problem, I also think of the economic benefits we get from big companies being established here, loads of employment, huge multiplier effect and injection into the circular flow, pushes up aggregate demand and aggregate supply...

People like this woman aren't really providing anything like that.

Davsmum Wed 12-Jun-13 12:21:21

Another thing - some people do not know HOW to manage - perhaps help in learning how to manage a budget better would be a start.

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 12:23:19

So when she had each of the 7 children, she was in a financial position at the time to raise them without expecting help? I very much doubt it.

The man on the scene was supporting them at the time of each of the births? I very much doubt that. If she has not worked for 15 years, she must have been relying on someone to help pay for them. Now who could that be?

Meanwhile Thames Water have paid no corporation tax on 145m profit. 2k a month is fuck all when you look at the companies at the top who are skanking the system in far more sophisticated ways.

burberryqueen Wed 12-Jun-13 12:26:17

the state obviously, as she had been led to expect.

abcdangel Wed 12-Jun-13 12:26:29

I feel sorry for the children, but not for the mother.

She's a grown up and contraception is free - it doesn't take much common sense or intelligence to realise that the more children you are going to have the more it's going to cost.

I'm the one who's coming to the realisation that I must be stupid - DH and I both work really hard to provide for our family - we chose to have 2 DC cos that's all we can afford. Makes me sick that she's moaning about getting £2k per month for doing NO WORK.

I'd rather my tax payer's money went on helping those people who desperately want just ONE baby but can't, rather than these irreponsible breeders who only get pregnant because they know that they will get paid.

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 12:27:05

AKiss while corporation tax avoidance is also a problem, corporations bring huge benefits, loads of employment, huge multiplier effect and injection into the circular flow, pushes up aggregate demand and aggregate supply...

This woman isn't really providing any of that

burberryqueen Wed 12-Jun-13 12:30:18

she might have been brought up with only that expectation, which is sad for her.
her money helps the local shops i suppose.

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 12:30:25

Good post Bacon

dreamingofsun Wed 12-Jun-13 12:31:12

davsmum - i think she has learnt how to manage. she has sussed that in the past having loads of kids was her best chance to earn lots of money - albeit from the tax payer. Her issue is that the goalposts have now changed, messing up her strategy

boschy Wed 12-Jun-13 12:37:19

I pity the mother and the children TBH.

To have such a low expectation of life that all you can do is have more and more children (perhaps in a vain attempt to keep the man) is very hard. It must be hard work with 7 kids. And for the kids, their role models arent exactly exemplary are they? Absent dad, mum not working, yet another sibling year on year, for whom the older ones no doubt help pick up a lot of the slack.

I cant imagine that life is always a lot of fun, with no hope ahead.

ConferencePear Wed 12-Jun-13 12:38:18

I think it's time we stopped blaming the mothers for these situations.
When are fathers going to accept that it is also their responsibility to maintain their children ?

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 12:38:28

Well, for pretty much all of us, we have to change our lifestyle from time to time, to incorporate changes in our income and outgoings. She needs to get on with it, just like the rest of us. Or get a job.

Davsmum Wed 12-Jun-13 12:39:06

Beaunidle. Doubting is not knowing, is it? You are choosing to believe what suits you.

abcdangel - I think being a mother IS work.
Its easy to say what people 'should' do and 'should' know. Very easy indeed.
It would be ideal if we were all sensible and clever enough to do the 'right' thing - but we are not. Its also easy to judge but if you have no experience of someone else's life it is not that black & white.

I think this mother should receive help in budgeting and she needs educating in how to manage on less -Her husband should be made to do something to support his family. Simply condemning her for what she has already done is absolutely pointless and it surprises me that supposedly intelligent people are so judgemental.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 12:39:47

There are women in abusive relationships who are continually forced to have children.

I work with vulnerable and hard to reach client groups and when someone engages with any of our services, a red flag is raised if they have a lot of children. It's a massive indicator (in my sector) of abuse.

No one here knows the background here but it's never black and white and what I've described could be one of a multitude of 'reasons' for this woman's situation.

I'd really love for people to inform themselves about the world we live in, rather than condemn because it's easy.

There but for the grace of God go I.

I certainly wouldn't want to be the single parent of 7 with one who has SN.

christinarossetti Wed 12-Jun-13 12:41:13

Has anyone had a go at the father(s) yet?

musicismylife Wed 12-Jun-13 12:41:26

Well said davsmum

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 12:41:49

I am pleasantly surprised that this hasn't turned into the usual "hilarious" flatscreen TVs and goats jokes thread grin

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 12:42:27

quite a few people christina

Kafri Wed 12-Jun-13 12:44:41

The other lady who was on that article made a good point - I work and earn what I earn. I wouldn't earn any more if I had more children, I'd have to make what I earn cover everything. I'm a TA so certainly not on mega bucks but is just have to make changes like the rest of the working population.

Davsmum Wed 12-Jun-13 12:46:39

dreamingofsun.

So you KNOW she has a 'strategy'
Like others you have made your mind up on absolutely no evidence - other than its what you choose to believe.
Once you know all about her and her life - all the facts - then you can decide about her and her reasons or 'strategies'
You can't make up your own reasons!

I really do hope that some of the people on here never sit on a jury because they make their minds up before they know anything much at all. No evidence required for a verdict?

I sometimes wonder who the sensible people are.

abcdangel Wed 12-Jun-13 12:47:29

Davsmum - I should maybe rephrase that then - she does not GO TO work. And she has chosen to have 7 children so should suck it up - I found 2 hard enough but I made sure I didn't have any more by using contraception.

I don't know anyone who when pregnant didn't have to analyse what they were going to do post birth re paying for the child, where they were going to live and whether they were going to return to work.

Those people who didn't got back to work (in many cases because it wouldn't pay for childcare) acknowledged that their financial situation would be affected and took that on the chin. They did not expect to be paid by the state to look after their own child.

And I agree that she could do with some help to budget effectively because £2,000 is a lot of money.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 12:47:41

Davs - I never wonder that wink

burberryqueen Wed 12-Jun-13 12:48:06

Or get a job
how is a single mother of 7 one with sn supposed to do that?
ok she could work 20 hours at minimum wage i imagine in which case she would still need state subsidy in the form of WFTC, CTC, HB, and CB. so what would be the point? she might as well stay with those who need her for now.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 12:49:21

abc - you really don't know that she chose to have 7 children. You assume.

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 12:49:23

Well, the background is that the area she comes from has a very high rate of unemployment apparently. She needs to retrain in order to get a job.

So, if the prospects are that bad, let's just have another baby? No, stop having babies, and get on the course to re-train.

Of course ItsallFeegle, we do not know the background apart from what we are reading. You as much as me. So to presume, there are a multitude of reasons for her situation, is just as bad as me presuming she is just whinging about her situation and expecting people to be in uproar on her behalf.

And if the father's are not providing, or working, they should have their money stopped.

There are many people who suddenly find themselves out of work, single parents etc. This seems to be a little different, from what I can gather, she has chosen this life.

ophelia275 Wed 12-Jun-13 12:50:05

Hmmm. So because Thames Water has not paid any Corporation tax it is ok to keep giving people with big families that don't work lots of money? No, it's not! Both issues are wrong and both issues (tax avoidance and out of control welfare) are the reasons we are having austerity. Both should be stamped out imo.

Bonquers Wed 12-Jun-13 12:50:56

Great news. About time all scroungers got hit.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 12:52:11

Beau "Of course ItsallFeegle, we do not know the background apart from what we are reading. You as much as me. So to presume, there are a multitude of reasons for her situation, is just as bad as me presuming she is just whinging about her situation and expecting people to be in uproar on her behalf."

How so? hmm

Also - what I've described could be one of a multitude of 'reasons' for this woman's situation.

Davsmum Wed 12-Jun-13 12:53:29

Beaunide,
She chose for her husband to abandon her?

This woman is not YOU - she did not have YOUR parents - your education - your qualifications?
She had HER life - A life you know nothing about - or I know nothing about.
She may be all you say - however, You don't know and I don't know.
Difference is you choose to condemn through ignorance - because you ARE ignorant about her - What you know you have made up to suit your disgust and anger at her getting money from the state.

AmberSocks Wed 12-Jun-13 12:53:42

i dont see why she needs to live in a 6 bedroom house?7 kids and 1 adult could fit into 4 bedrooms surely?she lives in birmingham its not exactly expensive to live up there!I think she could get buy on that if she really wanted to.

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 12:54:47

ophelia275 I will never understand why people sometimes act as though situations like this are okay purely because there are other issues like tax avoidance.

Davsmum Wed 12-Jun-13 12:56:11

Probably because the country loses lots lots more through tax avoidance by very well off people who are just greedy?

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 12:56:39
Davsmum Wed 12-Jun-13 12:57:23

BTW - no one said situations like this are 'OK'

noisytoys Wed 12-Jun-13 12:58:31

I feel bad for the children. Me and DH work full time and take home a little less than 2k (in the south east). We have 2 children and its really hard making ends meet. I couldn't imagine how hard it would be to make 2k stretch to meet the needs of 7 children

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 13:01:18

I don't get the £54 per week business anyway. Are they saying that £54 is difficult to live on after housing benefit, tax credits, fsm, child benefit, council tax paid, blah blah. Or are they saying they have to pay rent, council tax, gas elec, food, clothing? And is this per person or an entire family?
One hell of a difference.

Kaluki Wed 12-Jun-13 13:01:18

These stories and programmes such as Skint are all emphasisiing the extremes of benefit ‘scroungers’ but they always miss the main issue. Minimum wage is so low (assuming you can get a job in the first place) and rents and living costs are constantly rising so with the best will in the world it is becoming impossible for some families to live without claiming some form of benefits.
DP and I are lucky to be in jobs which pay above the minimum wage. We manage to pay rent and all the other bills ourselves but if we were on £6.30 an hour we would struggle and we live in a council house which has comparably low rent.

bettycocker Wed 12-Jun-13 13:01:51

I don't think 2000 per month is much at all if you have seven children.

I would love to have another child, but I can't afford to do so. Still, that doesn't mean that I'm all bitter and hateful towards this woman and others in similar situations.

People who get all sanctimonious over things like this seriously need to get a grip. If they think their lives are worse because of a minority of people who have large families and are on benefits, they are very naive indeed.

Politicians will tell you that these people are the reason why you pay so much tax, but they will find any excuse to grab as much of your money as possible.

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 13:01:55

ItsallFeegle all of those people receive significantly less than the woman the thread is about.

ghayes Wed 12-Jun-13 13:02:01

I don't see what tax avoidance has to do with this issue.

I can hardly blame people for getting annoyed about paying tax when they see that their money is going towards people like this, and they know that the children are statistically quite likely to go on to do the same thing.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 13:04:51

BaconKetchup - I would guess they don't have 7 children but I may be wrong....

....So, it really is about benefit bashing. I knew it sad

ophelia275 Wed 12-Jun-13 13:05:00

What is ironic is that someone actually in work and earning £45k (£32k after tax and NI) would have lost most of their entitlements to tax credits etc. Yet someone earning this amount on benefits does not and it is not taxed either.

mixedmamameansbusiness Wed 12-Jun-13 13:08:31

I was about to agree but then saw the 2k per month!

I stopped reading at that point and should probably finish but I assume her 6 bed roomed house is via the council/HB so £2000 seems sufficient.

I say this as someone who does live in council accommodation, with full rent etc and DH salary is average/mediocre retail management and we really struggle with 3 DSs but we manage it and I am looking at a part time job.

I disagree with a lot if the cuts and where they are being made, but I don't like this story.

lainiekazan Wed 12-Jun-13 13:08:55

Agree, ophelia. If you earn £45k you will be paying for school dinners, school trips etc - the same net amount on benefits and these things will be free, plus school uniform allowance, school swimming lessons etc etc

ladythatlunches Wed 12-Jun-13 13:09:34

Myself and dh have 5 children, my dh works very very hard we manage we do not have benefits.

We had twins so went from 3-5 it was our choice to have then so we raise them.

We could bot afford anymore dh has been snipped! I would hate to rely on benefits. I know some people don't really have a choice whether it being they have spilt from there partners but I can't understand the having 7 children. I feel fully stretched out between my children as we try to make sure they all get the same, it is very hard.

But I must say we could not live off 2k a month no way, but if we had to we would. Certainly wouldn't be in a postion argue aboutt.

Bonquers Wed 12-Jun-13 13:10:09

Why on earth shouldn't we benefit bash lazy scroungers like this?
I'm over the moon they are being clamped down on and sick to death of my taxes supporting the useless, the lazy and the feckless and all their offspring who are most likely apt to do the same..

angelos02 Wed 12-Jun-13 13:10:50

Its a fucked up system where it is possible to have a better lifestyle not working than working. Between DH & I we earn around £70k between us but couldn't dream of affording a 6 bedroom house or having 7 children.

Jan49 Wed 12-Jun-13 13:11:23

She talks as if she thinks she's being employed to bring up those children and should be paid for it. The sense of entitlement makes me really angry.

The fact that some fathers can get away with neither doing the practical care nor making financial contributions makes me angry too. This woman is actually contributing a lot more than the fathers are because at least she's doing the practical care. But what people see is the woman and the children so they blame the person they see, not the father that's cleared off. I blame both parents. My sympathy is with the kids and with the services that end up having to provide for children when the parents could have made the situation so much better by not producing so many.

ItsallFeegle, I'd assume she intended to have most of them. If she had 7 accidents then she had plenty of opportunity to learn to prevent that in the future, by abstaining from sex, using contraception or having an abortion. If she and her partner/s considered none of those options acceptable and preferred to have endless children, then they ought to be providing for them. Are you suggesting that since we don't know the full details of her situation, we shouldn't judge? In which case, what's the point of discussing anything ever?

Davsmum Wed 12-Jun-13 13:13:49

ghayes -I can hardly blame people for getting annoyed about paying tax when they see that their money is going towards people like this,
-------------------------------------------------------

People like what exactly? You also know this woman?

Our taxes go towards lots of things. Many benefits to which people are entitled go unclaimed but are we seeking them out to give them their money? Are you bothered about these people?

Its sad that for some - they can see nothing more than a life on benefits for whatever reason. I wouldn't swap places with them - There is no real future - no chance of improvement in their circumstances. They cannot get credit unless they are willing to pay massive interest rates.

Do I feel sorry for these people? Yes. Because they are missing out on a life of real choice. They are limited.
If you think its so good for them and you feel resentful - go try it.

I think to find out how the bedroom tax and benefit cuts affect, who some would describe as the "deserving poor", you need to stick to local Newspapers.

I am in Liverpool and already there are sucide attempts, because people will not be able to live. There are already more and more boarded up houses, because of the bedroom tax.

Every housing provider says that demand out numbers supply and will continue to do so.

We do not have a housing problem on Merseyside, the areas where houses are available, aren't the best, i live in one of them, but there are 3 bed houses with gardens for under £80 a week. We did not need the bedroom tax, i supposed Birmingham didn't, either. There is life outside London, even if it isn't thought worthwhile, by some.

Liverpool will loss the most in terms of benefits and cuts to budgets, there is a shortage of jobs and shops are closing weekly (with the associated ware housing and transportetc jobs).

There are meetings and it is being organised to have a mass stand off, as we did over the Poll tax. I hope it goes ahead, i join in the protests, it is a good mix. The Liverpool Echo, report well on these subjects.

The family in this story are rare and if they do go into hostel accomodation, they will need support workers (two of the children are disabled), possibly SW intervention, at least a CAF from school, so it will cost us more to disrupt this family.

We are going back to the 70's and 80's, where people cannot afford to eat and have any standard of living, couple that with some of our issues (such as immigration) and the Tories best start planning to spend double on crime prevention (as they did in the 80's, no money was saved by cuts to welfare).

OTTMummA Wed 12-Jun-13 13:17:22

I am one of five children, I had to share a bedroom with 3 of my siblings for 5 yrs in social housing when I was a child, I was the eldest and remember having to go without quite often.
It is not a bed of roses being on benefits or being the child of someone living on Full benefits.

I have lived in refuges because my mum had to escape my abusive father, I have moved over 20 times in my life and i am not yet 30.
I have lived in foster care and bedsits, basically its been a bit of a struggle.
I am not good with money, have anxiety and depression and have decided that I can not cope with any more children ( I have 2 ) we can not afford any more children either.

This lady probably has a similar background to mine, or probably worse.
What she needs is help, not necessarily monetary help, but education on how to better herself.
She needs compassion, nobody chooses to live like this, no one actually thinks this is a great life unless you have been told this is all you are good for, all you will achieve.
She quite clearly is lacking in life skills, the skills responsible parents try to instil into their children.
She is stuck like this, abandoned by the father, probably let down by her parents and has no aspirations because she hasn't been set an example.

These threads really irk me,, can no one actually see how desperate and sad people like this are?

Bonquers Wed 12-Jun-13 13:19:49

She can be desperate and sad on less money than a hardworking couple who have had to stop at two children, thankyouverymuch.

"I'm over the moon they are being clamped down on"

They won't be, in many cases there children will end up being consider "In Need" and they will be funded from a diffrent source.

We will then pick up the bill in the prison and MH services that we don't spend on welfare, costing much more in the long run.

"Its a fucked up system where it is possible to have a better lifestyle not working than working. "

We needed a welfare system similar to the countries that we were joining when we became a part of the EU. We also needed a greater investment in industry etc, not the destrution that the Thatcher set about. We had a good base in our social structure, it became a mess.

Then by the 90's we needed wages topping up,in the form of tax credits, because we allowed work not to pay. The reason why benefits were given was because in a lot of areas (mainly "Up North and Wales") there was no longer employment.

ophelia275 Wed 12-Jun-13 13:24:15

We are not going back to the 70s. The benefit cap has been capped at £26k, the equivalent to a £35k per year wage and that does not include free prescriptions, free school lunches and all the other satellite benefits that are not counted. If anyone thinks a cap of £26k is Dickensian then you are out of your mind! The tax and national insurance contributions of how many workers have to pay for only this one example of benefits excess and what exactly is society likely to get out of it (statistically, her children are also likely to become net takers).

Floggingmolly Wed 12-Jun-13 13:24:17

nobody chooses to live like this. Sorry, that's a ridiculous thing to say; many, many people quite obviously do.

We will then pick up the bill in the prison and MH services that we don't spend on welfare, costing much more in the long run.

Exactly

cory Wed 12-Jun-13 13:26:56

"ItsallFeegle, I'd assume she intended to have most of them. If she had 7 accidents then she had plenty of opportunity to learn to prevent that in the future, by abstaining from sex, using contraception or having an abortion."

What ItsallFeegle said, and I thought very interestingly, is that in her experience from working with such people, a woman in this situation will often have conceived her children in an abusive relationship where she did not have the choice of abstaining from sex or using contraception. I hadn't thought of that before, but it makes sense.

"She can be desperate and sad on less money than a hardworking couple who have had to stop at two children, thankyouverymuch."

Because that is what we want, desperate/sad Mums,bringing up 7 children. The MH services, anti depressants etc, will cost what her rent does. Then we will start to deal with her children's problems after being in that situation.

The point is that people will not be able to afford to live, literally.

One suggestion is that people, including LP's take in lodgers, no CRB or background check to be provided.

spotscotch Wed 12-Jun-13 13:32:53

Blimey, have I stumbled onto an alternative mumsnet? And where is usualsuspect has she missed her benefits klaxon?

Ashoething Wed 12-Jun-13 13:32:58

I feel sorry for her kids as they appear to have no role models in their lives. I feel not one ounce of sympathy for her. I have 3 kids and live in a 2 bedroom house as that's all we can afford.

Before anyone jumps in to point out I own my house while she merely rents her 6 bedroom mansionhmm-I would have happily have had a council flat/house but dh and I were laughed out of their offices when we enquired.

Interesting the U-turn labour have done on the benefits thing-now they see that actually the benefits cuts are popular and long overdue...

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 13:32:59

Jan - you are assuming.

This woman may be all the things that people are bashing her over but I prefer to not bash anyone and instead, realise that there might be some really complicated reasons for their situations.

Again, she may have been forced to have so many pregnancies, it's not uncommon.

Can I also point out to everyone who has mentioned all the fathers, that 6 of the 7 are her exH's children.

Floggingmolly Wed 12-Jun-13 13:34:09

Or maybe the point is that had she not had the expectation that she could have 7 children with someone else picking up the tab, she may well have made different choices? like most of us

Ashoething Wed 12-Jun-13 13:35:14

Yes its interesting spot-how the tide has turned on mn re benefit cuts. There was a time on here when if you dared to suggest that any benefit claimant was anything less than a perfect saint you were flamed to hell and back.

Ashoething Wed 12-Jun-13 13:36:21

If she hadn't been handed money for each child and a 6 bedroom house then she wouldn't have had so many children. I would bet my last pound on it.

FasterStronger Wed 12-Jun-13 13:37:30

the women and the two dads are completely irresponsible. hopefully the benefit reforms will stop this happening in the future.

"We are not going back to the 70s."

We are, i am not talking about the benefit cap, alone.

There are many people on benefits who cannot pay the bedroom tax and live on what is left.

My next door neighbour and her DH are unemployed (he isn't well enough but gets no DLA etc), in their late 50's. They support their DD who has MH problems, it is through their support that she has been able to parent her child (and work on low wages), he stays in their spare bedroom.

They are now £20 a week worse off, i was dreaded them having to move. I am in an area were shootings and drugs are common. Some families will have their money reduced by half,the one's dealing and minding guns won't have a problem paying the top up.

The real "problem" families will be picked up under a different service (SS). The ordinary, trying their best families, will really suffer.

Davsmum Wed 12-Jun-13 13:40:00

nobody chooses to live like this. Sorry, that's a ridiculous thing to say; many, many people quite obviously do. - Floggingmolly
----------------------------------------------------

Who? People who are educated enough to get a good job with a good salary? - NO
People who have had lots of love and support and encouragement from their parents?
Happy people?
Is it a choice you would make?

How much choice do you think 'these people' have to decide on that sort of life?

"hopefully the benefit reforms will stop this happening in the future."

As soon as the next change in government happens, we will have to spend a fortune again to get families out of the mess they have been put in.

I suppose the homeless charities are just exagerating, the crisis that is hitting, for the sake of it.

Ashoething Wed 12-Jun-13 13:41:52

What sort of life davs-the life where you are handed a 6 bedroom house and wads of money for doing hee haw? You are talking as if this is some kind of hardship rather than the kind of lifestyle most working people can only dream of-get real!

FasterStronger Wed 12-Jun-13 13:42:04

How much choice do you think 'these people' have to decide on that sort of life?

I think the women and the DH did what gave them the greatest income. they have made a rational choice.

FasterStronger Wed 12-Jun-13 13:42:53

only about 8% of women earn as much as she gets in benefits.

do you see the incentive?

Minifingers Wed 12-Jun-13 13:45:50

Does the 2K a month include her rent? If so, and she is in a private rental it could well be not enough to feed and clothe her children.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 13:47:04

A lot of people are stuck in a benefits trap culture.

Some people believe that's their lot!

Some people think they have no potential to be anything but the next generation of 'nobodies'.

I actively work to encourage, support and empower those individuals.

Have you any idea how utterly sad it is to attend a prison, to talk to the inmates about the service I may be able to offer some of them in the hope that we can show them there are other paths, to hear a 19 year old tell say that as soon as he is 'out' he's fucked! Inside he has a job, education, a bed and food...outside he has no opportunity and is homeless and hungry sad.

That young man was ready to write his life away and could see no potential in himself.

These threads boil my piss because there are far too many people who would agree with him, rather than trying to find and point out some potential.

Sometimes people need a hand up, encouragement and to be empowered to be the best they can be.

OTTMummA Wed 12-Jun-13 13:49:26

People in 3rd world countries have child after child and have a hell of a lot less, so no, I think she probably would have continued to have children.

The way of life for many women raised in poverty or abusive/negelctful households is so ingrained that it is virtually unfathomable to believe you can achieve more than this existence.

I can't imagine any rational person with a balanced personality choosing too have 7 children because they get a small amount of money from the government.
This is no life, it is a depressing cycle of monotony.

She has been left to this lets not forget.
I am way more critical of the man who fathered these children and feels it is suitable to just leave her to it.

cory Wed 12-Jun-13 13:50:12

Is there any evidence that women in poorer countries with no welfare network abstain from sex in order not to have children?

Davsmum Wed 12-Jun-13 13:50:57

What sort of life davs-the life where you are handed a 6 bedroom house and wads of money for doing hee haw? You are talking as if this is some kind of hardship rather than the kind of lifestyle most working people can only dream of-get real!
--------------------------------------------------

Did you see her house? Would you like that house?
It IS a hardship.

If her life is better than yours and its what you 'dream of' - then why don't you make that choice too? - because its not - its looks bloody miserable.
Most of us prefer to be independent and have choices - On what she has - she has very little choice.
Who says she decided to live like this? With her husband gone and 7 children to look after - I would say that very much limits her choice.

cory Wed 12-Jun-13 13:51:29

cross-posted with OTTMummA

I think we are very willing to accept that women in other countries may not have that much control over their sexuality, but we are loath to accept that the same might be the case for some women in this country.

I have heard horror stories from midwives in this country about men staying behind in the post-natal ward and forcing themselves on their wives when they had literally just been stitched up. Apparently it is not all that rare. If you were living with one of these charmers, what chances do you suppose there are you would be able to have a rational discussion about contraception and sexual abstinence?

Ashoething Wed 12-Jun-13 13:51:50

And some people need to stop whinging about how hard their lives on and get off their arses and do something.

I could write a book about the shit things that have happened in my life but you know what I didn't use that as an excuse to become a scrounger,a criminal or feckless.

You have to take responsibility at some point and that includes imo not being handed something for nothing.

A decent society looks after its most vulnerable-that is the ill,disabled and carers imo. Not those who view benefits as a lifestyle choice and whose massive sense of entitlement is being payed for by those who have no choice but to go out to work.

TheCrackFox Wed 12-Jun-13 13:52:07

Realistically this woman is unemployable - she hasnt worked for 20yrs and in a high unemployment area the competition will be especially tough.

However, the father(s) of these children giving the occasional £5 is ridiculous. NRPs should be forced to pay a decent amount to support their children.

ophelia275 Wed 12-Jun-13 13:52:30

Also, if she has 7 kids, why does she need a 6 bedroom house. Perhaps she thinks it is beneath her kids to have to share a room, god forbid, only the scummy children of workers need do that.

Ashoething Wed 12-Jun-13 13:53:11

Yes I did see her house. Does being on benefits mean you lose the ability to keep her house in a fit state of cleanliness then?hmm

dreamingofsun Wed 12-Jun-13 13:55:10

i agree itsallfeedle - and its often the kids of people like her that end up needing the most help. (quickly ducking the abusive I'm now going to get for making unfounded generalisations)

Davsmum Wed 12-Jun-13 13:58:27

All credit to those of us who have the ability to think positive and get off our arses and provide.
Its very arrogant though to assume everyone can do what you can do. You have to have a very narrow view to think everyone should be like you.

Are you earning or achieving as much as the very high achievers? If not- why not? They do it - why are you not doing it?
Society has many 'levels' different cultures and communities. If you have been raised in one type of community it is not easy to see there are other ways to live.
Be thankful you are not in that situation - The reason you are not is most likely down to the way you were brought up - your intelligence and education level and your confidence or abilities.

NOT EVERYONE is like YOU... not everyone can do what you do - just as you fall short of a lot of other people!

AmberSocks Wed 12-Jun-13 13:59:21

I think it should be compulsory for men to pay for their kids whether they see them or not.

OTTMummA Wed 12-Jun-13 13:59:32

This lady has been badly let down somewhere along the line, she may have been the girl who smelt at school, or the child who had constant nits, or got a beating every time she stepped out of line just for doing what children do.

She may have had no praise at home or school, she may have been bullied and put down whenever she tried her best at something, taunted and neglected.

People who grow up in loving, caring, nurturing, attentive homes do not choose a life like this.

I highly doubt that she has made a conscious calculation or comparison to figures like that FasterStronger

Davsmum Wed 12-Jun-13 13:59:55

Yes I did see her house. Does being on benefits mean you lose the ability to keep her house in a fit state of cleanliness then?
-----------------------------------------------------

Its a rented house in a state of ill repair- not unclean. He rlandlord will be responsible for the repairs - She has little or no choice in what house she is given.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 14:00:29

dreaming - don't duck anywhere.

You are right. Those children and many many like them, don't have access to the opportunities people in better areas do.

That's why I do the work I do.

I am one of 6 children, whose single parent mother worked 3 jobs to feed us.

Some of my siblings didn't have the capacity to see something more for themselves. I was hungry for more.

I worked bloody hard (and was a single teen parent) to realise my potential and by God I made sure I got a career in something I'm passionate about.

AmberLeaf Wed 12-Jun-13 14:01:49

OTTMummA

Brilliant post.

chenin Wed 12-Jun-13 14:02:11

She says she can't go out to work because she has a 2 year old. From what I could see her 17yr old and 15 yr old did bugger all... why can't they look after the younger ones whilst she does work? My DC's had part time jobs from the age of 15... there is work out there if you try hard enough and whilst the older two appear to choose not to work (and one of them was worried about new clothes and where they would come from), they could help in the house with childcare to enable their mother to work.

Floggingmolly Wed 12-Jun-13 14:03:50

I highly doubt that she has made a conscious calculation or comparison to figures like that, FasterStronger
No, I doubt she has either; she'll never have needed to. Which is why the benefits overhaul was so necessary.

burberryqueen Wed 12-Jun-13 14:04:28

agree with helliebean, wasnt that how the larger families in the old days worked?

Davsmum Wed 12-Jun-13 14:04:32

Yes, OTTMummA - very very true. I doubt some people care about any of that though. They prefer to believe she is some sort of scheming criminal who is laughing all the way to the bank whilst they live such hard lives paying for her.

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 14:05:18

cory In countries like that there is no easy, freely available access to contraception like we have here.

AmberLeaf Wed 12-Jun-13 14:06:01

OTTMummA thread moved quickly, I was refering to your first post!

OTTMummA Wed 12-Jun-13 14:06:01

I think having a tidy house with 7 children is going to be hard work, that's not even considering how she probably has depression, even low level.
Like I said, people from loving, caring homes do not choose to live like this, most people have been set an example by their parents, if you were lucky enough to have a good set then your chances of being a stable well rounded person are much higher.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 14:06:09

And who's to say she was able to access contraception?

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 14:06:51

ItsallFeegle contraception is incredibly easy to access in this country...

dreamingofsun Wed 12-Jun-13 14:07:01

davsmum - you argument about upbringing would surely support the argument for capping benefit payments though? Surely we would want to discourage large, single parent families where no-one works?

burberryqueen Wed 12-Jun-13 14:07:50

also, she is only in the paper cos the Daily Mule gave her £500 or something so who can blame her for that?

Floggingmolly Wed 12-Jun-13 14:08:24

Why wouldn't she have been able to access contraception, Feegle?
Give us an example.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 14:09:24

Is it? What if her husband refused to allow it? What if he attended her every HC appointment with her to ensure she wasn't able to access contraception?

Ensuring your partner is continuously pg is the way some abusers maintain control.

MilgramsLittleHelper Wed 12-Jun-13 14:10:09

but who would help her into work given she's someone who's never previously entered the employment market (I think)? It would be great if someone showed a degree of philanthropy so she could at least prove herself and of course the prat of a ex husband hasn't helped!

ByTheWishingWell Wed 12-Jun-13 14:11:34

I'm actually quite shocked how many times the word 'scrounger' has popped up on this thread, it feels as though I've somehow stumbled onto the Daily Mail site.

All the posters saying how they would have loved to have more children, but stopped at 2 as that's all they could afford- is that worked out on having £20 per week per child for food, clothing, school trips, etc? Because that's what this woman will be left with once she has paid her rent. I don't envy her in the slightest, and can't believe anyone really thinks she has chosen an easy life, where she can lounge about doing nothing all day. She is a single parent looking after 7 dependent children, one of whom has SN- that sounds like a very full-time job to me!

Obviously it isn't an ideal situation, but we don't know her reasons for being in this situation. Even if it does just come down to 'poor life choices' (ie no abuse or any of the other reasons suggested), she has a hard enough life living with those choices now without being set up as a hate figure on TV and judged- surely constructive help with getting into and maintaining a more comfortable situation would be more humane?

ShadeofViolet Wed 12-Jun-13 14:13:57

In Victorian Times, if a father deserted his children and wouldn't support them, his details would be circulated around the country via newspapers and he faced jail under the Vagrancy Act.

That is one Dickensian practice I would like to see returning.

happyinherts Wed 12-Jun-13 14:14:00

I have every sympathy with any parent who finds themselves in situations beyond their control. She mentions a mortgage once, so she must have had a partner / husband in employment at one stage, and presumably did not presume her relationship would end. Let's face it, circumstances change for all of us.

However, I do take issue with the comment that a family of four 'round the corner' have the same benefits as herself with seven. Name me an employer who increases wages when you expand your family. You have cut your cloth according to the pattern, as hundreds of thousands of working families have had to. I think this is what puts people's backs up, the fact she seemed to think she was hard done by from the benefits system, glossing over the fact that working parents don't bring home that kind of money and go on national tv moaning about it.

A very part time cleaning job whilst older children held fort would entitle this lady to working families tax credit which would at least give out the impression of trying to improve her lot in life by a slight contribution. Seemed a bit too entitled for my liking.

OTTMummA Wed 12-Jun-13 14:14:52

The benefits overhall being introduced now will not save money.

We will be paying for this ignorance and disregard for years to come.

Tories are looking to punish people who are a symptom of a bigger problem, I think it is well established that this type of reaction is never successful.

There will be more cases of child neglect, children put into homes/care/up for adoption, illness through malnutrition, crime etc,etc.
How are we going to pay for all these new symptoms that will inevitably come to surface?
These children will suffer, they will continue the cycle, in what way is this desirable?

Please enlighten me as to how things will change for the better by taking money away from uneducated parents?
Their children will not aspire to much more than their parents, not without intervention and who is willing to pay for that?

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 14:15:22

I can't believe your shocked Wishing.

MN is full of people who like to condemn, judge and practise their armchair psychology on.

I could bloody kick myself for opening these threads. Why do I bloody do it? hmm

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 14:15:42

Absolutely what hellibean says.

It looks like here cometh the next generation.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 14:18:41

And so how do we tackle that Beau?

By keeping our judging foot on their face in the dirt or by trying to support the next generation by supporting them and showing them they have potential to be more?

MilgramsLittleHelper Wed 12-Jun-13 14:20:53

"by trying to support the next generation by supporting them and showing them they have potential to be more?"

Yes I agree totally

dreamingofsun Wed 12-Jun-13 14:21:08

itallfeegle - by discouraging people who can't look after their own kids from having more would be a start - limiting child benefit to 2 kids in future. OK so this wouldn't affect her 7, but it might make her think twice about having any more.

NinetiesBitch Wed 12-Jun-13 14:21:25

This is a genuine question- how do you support a family and show their children that they have the potential to be more?

ByTheWishingWell Wed 12-Jun-13 14:24:25

I'm still fairly new to MN Feegle, so haven't read a benefits thread before this one. I maybe won't next time!

Dreaming- what about struggling families who still have more than 2 children? Let the 'extra' ones suffer to teach their parents a lesson?

Bonquers Wed 12-Jun-13 14:24:57

Do those excusing her really believe that she would have had so many children if the benefits system was less generous? There won't be a huge rise in neglect just hoprfully a fall in thd number of children born into abenefits lifestyle.

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 14:25:22

ItsallFeegle.

Mother gets off arse and starts doing some form of employment. Or get's on course to re-train.. Thereby setting examples to the 7 offspring.

Eldest offspring 'mind' younger offspring whilst mother is working.

Eldest offspring also starts to look for work. Eldest offspring contributes financially to family income.

I cannot tell you how many times my eldest has minded the siblings whilst I go out to to work for a few hours whilst dh is at work. From the age of 15 she did this.

Mother and eldest sibling could work different hours. Father should be found and made to assist financially. By money deducted from his wage or his benefits stopped.

As I have said before on this thread, when one is forced to take action, it is surprising how resourceful one can be.

MilgramsLittleHelper Wed 12-Jun-13 14:25:23

I'm not blaming the Government/banking sector (totally), but it seems outrageous that some of the finest minds in the land couldn't model the probability and extent of the economic fallout, but it's always the weakest (as in less able to defend themselves from authority) that get that the shitty end of things.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 14:29:05

Well for those people who have empathy and really want to empower people to be the best they can be, there are many ways.

I, for instance, recruit train and manage volunteer mentors, who offer their time, experience, support and encouragement to individuals engaging with various services within my organisation.

There are so many things we have to offer others that they find invaluable and that they might never have had an opportunity to access any other way.

That's one way and just one example.

Get involved, that's how we start to give people a hand up.

Bonquers Wed 12-Jun-13 14:29:14

Yes, how do we support people? I know, how about free meals, free educatipn, free healthcare and contraception? Nah, it would never work ther'd still be some wanting to bleed the hardworking even more!

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 14:29:38

2 grand and a 6 bed house shitty? hmm

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 14:30:23

dreaming - how do you discourage people to not have children?

Education, education, education. It's the passport out of ignorance.

OTTMummA Wed 12-Jun-13 14:33:32

I am not excusing her,, I am trying to give a very possible history as to how someone ends up in this situation.

I have had lot of shite slung my way in life, I am quite surprised I am not an alcoholic, drug addict, or live in a council house near to my mother with 5 kids in tow.

I still struggle, immensely sometimes.
I have low self esteem, anxiety, depression, I loath myself, I decline promotions at work because I don't feel I am good enough, I am scared to achieve more than I am comfortable with.
It's ludicrous clearly, but the way of thinking that years of abuse and neglect influences me is hard to shake.

I have tried my hardest to make sure I do not end up like my mother, in her situation.
It wasn't fun, not at all.
Despite my life being better than I envisaged as a child and teenager I can still see how more worse off I could have ended up.
I do not know why I am like this, why my reaction and this woman's reaction differ, but I can understand and empathise with how easy it may have been to give up and settle for a life like that.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 14:33:34

Bonquers - you're just fucking vile.

You've yet to offer any kind of reasoned argument.

DFUD

Bonquers Wed 12-Jun-13 14:34:50

What, free efucation? like we already have? what a load of rubbish! Why graft when you can get more for free is the mentslity and no education will change that only cuts.

MilgramsLittleHelper Wed 12-Jun-13 14:34:59

2 grand and a 6 bed house shitty?

2 grand, most of which goes into the landlords back pocket. Over inflated rentals another product of a poorly run economy.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 14:35:27

Beau - yes, the elder DC could/ should be helping out but this woman, specifically, has a child with SN who she's unable to leave.

Bonquers Wed 12-Jun-13 14:36:14

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

FasterStronger Wed 12-Jun-13 14:38:10

i don't believe she just happened to end up with the highest possible income she could achieve.

whether you are steve jobs, or this woman, its not a roll of the dice.

OTTMummA Wed 12-Jun-13 14:39:00

BeauNidle
Part of the reason I ended up in care was my reluctance to care for my younger siblings, I refused to be a surrogate parent.
My mother didn't like that, not one bit.

I hated that role with more passion than anything else.
It majorly affected my relationships with my siblings.

Obviously there are levels of help, but I find some people expect too much from the eldest.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 14:39:19

Maybe use your free education Bonquers confused

The education I meant wasn't strictly the school education you assumed I meant.

What about parenting classes, budgeting workshops, life skills/ coaching, employability courses, literacy and numeracy?

These are all pathways to improvement.

FasterStronger Wed 12-Jun-13 14:40:23

Get involved, that's how we start to give people a hand up.

that's great. we all have different skills. i stopped a charity going bankrupt so it could continue to help people.

i still think she needs more stick and less carrot.

Bonquers Wed 12-Jun-13 14:41:21

She's had more carrot than a field full of donkeys!

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 14:41:25

And yes, I'm a bleeding heart twit but you've yet to offer any reasoned argument.

You are an ignoramus!

TheRealFellatio Wed 12-Jun-13 14:41:56

Haven't read whole thread. I don't quite understand what's going on here. she says she currently 'gets' 60 pounds per week per child and it is going to 'go down' to 20 pounds per week, for 'everything; food clothes, school trips etc.'

And she is in private rental in a 6 bed house. Is it that she is using part of her universal credit and child benefit etc to continue funding the overpayment above HB on her house? Is she saying that in oder to stay in that property her disposable income will need to drop to 20 per week per child?

Also she says that her 17 year old has just 'come back' to live with her. Where has she been? confused

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 14:42:59

Brilliant work fasterstronger grin (please don't read that as sarcastic, because it isn't)

TheRealFellatio Wed 12-Jun-13 14:43:47

And she says her ex gives her absolutely nothing, so presumably he couldn't afford to contribute adequately to the children when he lived with them either!

Bonquers Wed 12-Jun-13 14:44:30

it'sall

I have reasoned. I've said, ad nauseum in fact, that cutting the generous benefits should result in fewer children being born into this lifestyle. The cuts should make people make choices they are currently not making.

Obviously we need to continue to provide the bare minimum for those already here but not a penny more for any more.

Benefits should be set in stone at the family size you are at when you first access them.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 14:44:50

I don't think she answered any of those questions Fellatio.

Maybe I'm sure someone can correct me. smile

squeakytoy Wed 12-Jun-13 14:46:11

She had six kids when her husband left. So why on earth did she think having a seventh by someone else would be a good idea??

Oh, because she knew damn well that it would mean a few more £££ in benefits.

Nope, I dont have any sympathy at all for her "plight".

There are many more families struggling on a lot less than she is, and they are working too, not expecting hand outs.

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 14:46:41

MilgramsLittleHelper Wed 12-Jun-13 14:34:59
2 grand and a 6 bed house shitty?

2 grand, most of which goes into the landlords back pocket. Over inflated rentals another product of a poorly run economy.

_____________________________________________________-

And someone who has gone out and earned 2 grand has also got to pay rent/mortgage. Along with council tax, school dinners, prescriptions blah blah.

Bonquers Wed 12-Jun-13 14:46:45

itsall we ar never going to agree here but luckily for me and unluckily for you -and all the other lefty bleeding hearts-- we have a Tory govt intent on a clamp down grin.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 14:46:51

I'm outing you as, David Cameron, Bonquers grin

It'll be gruel and workhouses next.

Bonquers Wed 12-Jun-13 14:50:29

Yes, of courseeeee!! The obvious alternative to allowing people who have never worked to enjoy six bedroom, 7 kid lifestyles that most working people could never afford is to stick them in the workhouse.
Do you genuinely not see a middle ground?

MilgramsLittleHelper Wed 12-Jun-13 14:51:51

Yes Beau as do I. That poorly run economy doesn't just effect the poorest you know.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 14:55:01

I have yet to see where I've said this woman's situation is ideal.

My middle-ground, I'm afraid, would be offering her, and those in similar positions, classes such as those I've mentioned, alongside others and by providing intensive individualised support to allow them to help themselves out of this trap.

Not by bashing them and saying they're all feckless, worthless, scroungers.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 14:56:03

Oh and where did she mention she's never worked?

MilgramsLittleHelper Wed 12-Jun-13 14:56:49

......and some training WITH at least some expectation of a job smile

Bonquers Wed 12-Jun-13 14:57:08

Support like sure start?

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 14:58:14

Well in one of the papers she claims she cannot get a job as she has not worked for 20 years. Not sure quite how old she is but it certainly can't have been a long career!

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 14:59:08

Not necessarily, but yes, if they offered something of benefit, however, this government is cutting funding for support services and in turn, keeps individuals like this woman where they are. confused

Bonquers Wed 12-Jun-13 15:00:07

Training like all the hundreds of free courses for the unemployed?

TheRealFellatio Wed 12-Jun-13 15:00:55

She said in the interview that she hasn't worked for fifteen years. She's 38, her eldest child is 17, so if she worked before she was born it was only for maybe 4 years at most, and then it looks as if she stopped working when she was pg with child 2, the 15 year old? Guessing this though. She said their home was repossessed so the husband must have had a job at some point, to buy a house. Not sure why neither father involved is unable to pay anything. confused

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 15:01:22

I'm sure you don't believe everything you read or hear in the media.

She did say on the vt, that the last time she worked was 15 years ago, so that in itself leads me to believe that she has, in fact, been in gainful employment.

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 15:01:25

She could downsize. No need to run a 6 bed house.
She could get rid of her car. But doesn't want to as she has the school run to do ya know!

Legs? Oh no can't possibly walk.

But someone who is working and cannot afford to keep the size of their house going generally downsizes.

Someone who is working and cannot afford a car generally sells it.

Bonquers Wed 12-Jun-13 15:01:26

Sure start was running for years and hasnt done this womsn any good so hardly surlrising its been scrapped!

MilgramsLittleHelper Wed 12-Jun-13 15:01:46

Courses are one thing, gaining paid employment is another.

ophelia275 Wed 12-Jun-13 15:02:09

If she moved to a 4 bed house her rent would drop and she would have more in her pocket even on £2k. But that would mean her kids sharing and that might be traumatic for them.

dreamingofsun Wed 12-Jun-13 15:02:27

aren't a lot of you assuming she wants to change her situation? My impression from what i read was that she just wants more money? She may not want (or be prepared) to work or retrain?

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 15:02:29

X-post with Fellatio

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 15:04:04

Bonquers - firstly, what is your point here and secondly, what 'hundreds' of courses for the unemployed?

And...if there were all these courses, surely you'd agree with them?

TheRealFellatio Wed 12-Jun-13 15:04:17

To be fair, unless she lives in the very centre of town with easy access to everything then getting rid of her car is probably a false economy. To get 8 of them everywhere by bus will be ridiculously expensive.

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 15:04:30

pmsl at the trauma of kids sharing a room.

In fact she could have a 3 bed.

1 for her.
1 for boys
1 for girls.

Like the good old days.

Davsmum Wed 12-Jun-13 15:04:52

Dreamingofsun,
Of course we want to discourage large families on benefits.
Of course we cannot keep paying more and more. However, you cannot take away a chunk of the money from existing claimants just like that without offering some support/education/advice/help.

I very much doubt people grow up looking forward to being on benefits. I don't understand why people assume the woman wants this type of life when they know absolutely nothing about her or her abilities or emotional state.
People have too many children for all sorts of reasons.
Not everyone is stable and intelligent enough to plan their life perfectly.

Madmum24 Wed 12-Jun-13 15:06:54

I do have some sympathy for her, she was married with 6 kids, mortgage etc and then her husband left her, she and kids became homeless due to house repossession, she has only had 1 further child whilst on benefits, it's not as if she has been constantly reproducing (unlike some) and expecting others to pay for them.

I definitely agree that this woman is in a catch 22 situation; the chances are that she will be worse off if she works (she said she has no qualifications?) so she is essentially trapped. The government reforms are costing more to the taxpayer and yet people are receiving less. I heard of one family in London who due to the HB cuts became homeless, their rent was £2000 pcm, council temporarily rehomed them in a hotel which costs a whopping £12,000 pcm!

Everyone is feeling the pinch these days, but I don't see MP's putting their second homes on the market!

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 15:06:56

Where does she have to get them to at great cost on the bus? They would prob have bus passes for school. Expect the primary is within walking distance. Wonder what sort of car she is running to take 8 people at a time. Can't be cheap owning a bus.

dreamingofsun Wed 12-Jun-13 15:09:08

davsmum - i wasn't suggesting her child benefit for the current kids was removed, more that in future its limited to 2 and therefore she doesn't get any more if she had an 8th or 9th child - she potentially could have at least 3 more at her age.

i agree we cannot assume she wants this lifestyle, but neither can we assume she wants to change.

FasterStronger Wed 12-Jun-13 15:09:20

I do have some sympathy for her, she was married with 6 kids, mortgage etc and then her husband left her,

nope - they created a very vulnerable situation for their DCs.

threesypeesy Wed 12-Jun-13 15:12:11

I do feel sorry for her in a way £2000 isn't a massive amount of money to cover rent, bills, feed 8 people, clothes, toys, birthdays, christmas etc. She may have a 6 bedroom house but to be fair it didn't look upto much. Her family are going to be pushed in to poverty and even though I think you should only have the number of children you can afford to have (also understand circumstances change after sometimes) I will feel really sorry for her children.

OTTMummA Wed 12-Jun-13 15:12:30

What about her child with sn?
Maybe they need it to get to and from appointments?
She would have to pay for bus passes for the children over 5, and herself.

bettycocker Wed 12-Jun-13 15:12:45

Sadly she is probably not going to be very employable after being out of work for so long. There's enough competition for jobs as it is.

I don't know what the solution is, but painting her as a scrounger and making her worse off isn't the answer imo. My first though when I saw the story is that she probably has deep seated self esteem issues.

Unfortunately, I don't think she'll be able to turn her life around very easily.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 15:13:13

How do you know what surestart have or haven't done?

You are flapping your bloody gums to be as controversial and goady as possible.

I refuse to continue to engage with such an obtuse, inflammatory, ignoramus.

HTH grin

TheRealFellatio Wed 12-Jun-13 15:13:25

I do have some sympathy for her, she was married with 6 kids, mortgage etc and then her husband left her, she and kids became homeless due to house repossession, she has only had 1 further child whilst on benefits, it's not as if she has been constantly reproducing (unlike some) and expecting others to pay for them.

Well not constantly reproducing, no, but she has chosen to exacerbate an already very difficult situation, hasn't she?

And this is why it's probably not a great idea to have 6 kids even when you think everything is going swimmingly. We are all of us only one job loss or one illness away from potential disaster. A bit of sensible damage limitation wouldn't go amiss. That's why most of us stop at 2 or 3, maybe four is we are feeling especially optimistic.

Bonquers Wed 12-Jun-13 15:13:32

I cannot comprehend why so many women leave school with nowt, get married/shacked up /pregnant and then end up living off the tax payer when the relationship fails.

What happened to qualifications, working, postponing families?

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Wed 12-Jun-13 15:14:08

Hands up any employer who wants to take on a women who has been out of the work place for 15 years, admits to needing skills training and has 7 children, one with special needs? And she lives in an area with shockingly high unemployment.

How do you discourage people from going into situations where they are effectively choosing to not support themselves, without punishing people who are already in these situations or in them because of the circumstances that life has thrown at them? And if real wages are so low that they can't support a normal sized family, and people feel like it's only fair if benefits are lower than wages, then how is the welfare system even going to help anyone?

It's all fine and well saying that she shouldn't have had seven kids (and really she probably shouldn't have) but they're here and they need to be looked after and fed and this woman, for whatever reason, is unable to contribute financially to that. I think we have an obligation to make sure that children and vulnerable people are supported.

But then I don't know how to marry up that thought with how we encourage people to have aspirations of self support and how we don't make people feel like shit for needing help and how we they can contribute to society.

Blah, that was a lot of thoughts in not a very good order.

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 15:14:17

She is 38, and if she hasn't worked for 20 years that means since she was 18.

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 15:15:04

Oops, I seem to have missed a large chunk blush

Bonquers Wed 12-Jun-13 15:16:18

We do it by capping benefits at two or three children at a point in the future whilst maintaining support for those children already in existence from that point.

Quite simple.

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 15:16:48

Massive career of 2 years max then!

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 15:16:53

I think people are probably less bothered than how much she receives in benefits than they are by the fact that she chose to go to the papers and complain that she will be needing more.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Wed 12-Jun-13 15:18:57

But people wont accept that because it's not going to reduce the welfare bill* or stop things like this making it to the paper.

*I understand that the breakdown of where welfare and benefits actually goes doesn't make very palatable reading for the right wing frothers though.

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 15:21:12

OTTMummA Wed 12-Jun-13 15:12:30
What about her child with sn?
Maybe they need it to get to and from appointments?
She would have to pay for bus passes for the children over 5, and herself.
_____________________________________________

Do you think she has to go to daily appointments with the child? Or has to catch a bus every so often to the hospital. To run a car of the size she must have would be very expensive, tax insurance maintenance petrol. Far cheaper to walk the kids to the primary and I am sure the older ones would get a bus pass to school. So highly likely that she could cut down in this area.

In fact she has lots of things she could do with immediate effect to close the gap of the 600 per month she claims she will lose. But I doubt she has even thought of one of them. Because she doesn't want to.

Kaluki Wed 12-Jun-13 15:22:33

We do it by capping benefits at two or three children at a point in the future whilst maintaining support for those children already in existence from that point.
So what do we do when a family with 2/3 kids on benefits do have another baby? Let it starve? Take it into care - how much will that cost the taxpayer?
Or should we become more like China and force abortions on the poor?

PearlyWhites Wed 12-Jun-13 15:23:24

Am a little confused by this if she has a child with special needs does she not receive dla for her dc. If so she would be exempt from the benefit cap.

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 15:23:37

Did the DM really give her 500 for the interview as someone said upthread?

Let's hope she has declared it.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 15:25:12

WTAF? I can't fucking help myself with you, Bonquers!

What is it with women?

ByTheWishingWell Wed 12-Jun-13 15:25:49

Bonquers

You keep suggesting capping benefits at 2 children. You haven't explained what should happen when families still have more than 2, which they then at some point cannot afford to support. Should the children be left with insufficient food and clothing, to punish them for their parents choices?

jellybeans Wed 12-Jun-13 15:26:38

I had some sympathy for her. 7 kids must be hard work, I have 5 and it is chaos at times. Also she had them while she was married. Not her fault if the bloke cleared off. Why isn't he getting slated? It is going to be hard for any mother of several children to get a job and do everything else aswell especially if her son has severe behavioral issues and is often excluded.

As for the not working in however many years, I haven't been in paid work for 14 years as have been a SAHM. Lots of SAHP haven't worked in years but still have been doing vital unpaid work in the home. I am not on benefits which is the only difference really but don't see how better off mums are ok to be a SAHM but lone parent are 'layabouts' etc.

ghayes Wed 12-Jun-13 15:27:27

It needs to be made clear that it is anti-social to have large families at the taxpayers expense. So many young girls become single mothers due to lack of self-esteem.

dreamingofsun Wed 12-Jun-13 15:27:31

adoption would probably be the best thing for the child, at birth, but unfortunately in a 'civilised' society thats not politically viable

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 15:27:59

Kaluki - if they decide to have a 3rd or 4th child, then it is down to the parents to support it. Simple.
Best idea ever.

morethanpotatoprints Wed 12-Jun-13 15:28:01

YANBU.

In fact you are showing compassion for somebody who is probably a lot worse off than yourself, which imo is very commendable. thanks

I can't believe somebody on this thread has described a human being as a drain on society. I don't know where some people get off.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 15:29:17

Sorry, trying to see to DS here too grin

Don't men have any input?

Gah! Your a bloody misogynist too.

Such a simple person, with simple solutions to complex problems.

Och I promise that's me and you finished, this time! hmm

Davsmum Wed 12-Jun-13 15:31:12

Its really quite amusing how many people on here KNOW this woman - KNOW how she thinks, KNOW her motives.
They KNOW what she is capable of and what she should have done or not done.

In reality - they know very little but like to judge her anyway.

Bonquers Wed 12-Jun-13 15:33:11

I have 5 kids and we have to spread our cash thinner. Just as benefits claiments will should they choose to have more. Surely thst's completely obvious?

dreamingofsun Wed 12-Jun-13 15:33:29

davsmum - but what do you expect people to do? They are going to make assumptions about her, and judge her positively or negatively depending on their view point. There wouldn't be a thread otherwise, and to be honest, she has brought judgement onto her self a bit by agreeing to the piece on the Daily Mail

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 15:33:31

dreaming - REALLY? Oh my fucking word, some of you are proper idiots vile.

Do you have any idea how much it costs to raise a child in care?

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 15:34:02

dreaming that is a rather unpleasant thing to say.

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 15:34:58

Look - The way it is at the moment, the more kids you have the more benefits, the larger house etc you get. Unfortunately in the society we now live in, people are having more children for this very reason.

So the only way forward it to cap the amount of children who are to be supported financially by the state. (not ones already born but future of course)
And none of this constant demand for larger housing.

Plenty of large families live quite normally in 3 bedroom houses. That is neither child abuse, nor neglect.

Those who say that this is not the way forward are not coming up with any other solutions.

It is quite refreshing to see how the tide has turned on MN with regard to this subject. Years ago it was only those who dared to speak up against funding a lifestyle of benefits that got a right old bashing. Yet now there seem to be more people sick to death of it, and are now speaking their mind. Quite right too.

Davsmum Wed 12-Jun-13 15:35:20

Very good Bonquers - so if something happens to you or your family and you cannot for whatever reason ( health/death/divorce) work,..should we not help you?

Bonquers Wed 12-Jun-13 15:35:44

itsall I mention women because they tend to choose babies and sahm whilst men tend to remain in work if they start off like that.

Davsmum Wed 12-Jun-13 15:37:12

dreamingofsun.

I expect people to stop making things up in their head. I expect people not to make judgements they are not qualified to make based on what they do not know.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 15:37:27

Beau - I'm with you on cutting cloth to accommodate.

Nobody is saying we think this woman is living an ideal.

But...I want change. I want social change and opportunity for families to better themselves.

dreamingofsun Wed 12-Jun-13 15:38:14

itallfeegle - i didn't say 'care', i said adopted. And yes I agree its not a very nice thing to have to say, but in reality the child probably would be better brought up in a 2 parent family with fewer sibblers, with more individual attention and at least one parent working. It used to be the norm in the old days, but nowadays there always seems to be the assumption that the mother is best placed to care for a child.

Bonquers Wed 12-Jun-13 15:38:17

davsmum you wont need to help me as it happens but we help everyone at where they enter the system but nofunding for more kids on benefits no.

thezebrawearspurple Wed 12-Jun-13 15:38:42

There's absolutely no excuse for having seven children that you cannot provide for, this isn't a case of someone falling on hard times, it's a case of someone who chose to breed far more children than she and her sperm donors can afford with the expectation of the taxpayer funding everything. My sympathy is with the children, the mother and her sperm donors should be sterilised.

Bonquers Wed 12-Jun-13 15:39:30

itsall genuinely what more help do you want to see?

Ashoething Wed 12-Jun-13 15:40:14

Oh here we go-its all the wishy washy lets not judge the poor soul nowhmm We judge and are judged every single day-that's life Im afraid. As for the oh well you don't know this women comments-well neither do you but it doesn't seem to have stopped you projecting the notion that she is ill-educated,abused and downtrodden has it?

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 15:40:38

AND I want people to stop fucking bashing women for the lives they find themselves living!

She's only as responsible as the man/ men who she lay with.

ByTheWishingWell Wed 12-Jun-13 15:41:32

Bonquers

So for people to have the option of spreading their cash a bit thinner, you must agree that child benefit for the first two children should be higher than the bare minimum required per child? Obviously there would need to be a bit of a cushion to ensure that none of the children (however many there might be) ever went without actual necessities.

Kaluki Wed 12-Jun-13 15:41:40

Forced adoption?? Ae we going back in time?
I suppose while we are at it we could force those earning under £20k a year to be sterilised in case they have babies they can't feed???
Un-fucking-believable!!!

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Wed 12-Jun-13 15:42:28

But do we just leave the extra children to starve and say 'sorry, your parents have met their breeding quota'?

MilgramsLittleHelper Wed 12-Jun-13 15:43:12

Don't men have any input?

Well I'm a guy and have had mine smile

Ashoething Wed 12-Jun-13 15:43:31

Bollocks she is. At the end of the day its women who fall pregnant not men so Im afraid the buck stops with her. It may not be fair but again-that's life. She didn't just find herself living this life by accident-don't make me laugh! She purposely chose to have 7 kids because she knew someone else would pay for them and is now whinging because her gravy train is coming to an end.Good.

Davsmum Wed 12-Jun-13 15:43:43

Ashoething
I have not said she is any of those things. I have said I don't know.
People who assume and judge when they don't know are dangerous people.
History shows how dangerous people like that are.
Current events show dangerous that sort of thinking is.

Of course you can judge when you know the facts. Thing is - none of you do. But don't let that stop you.

dreamingofsun Wed 12-Jun-13 15:43:49

kaluki - could you point out where i said 'forced' please as I can't spot it and i don't believe i said that?

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 15:44:07

dreaming you have made a really stupid comment, now everyone on this thread disapproving of this woman's lifestyle will be labelled as someone wanting forced adoption etc

morethanpotatoprints Wed 12-Jun-13 15:44:16

ffs.

I've heard it all now, her dc or some of them should be taken into care and adopted.
This is just fuckin vile. sad

Kaluki Wed 12-Jun-13 15:45:50

itallfeegle - i didn't say 'care', i said adopted. And yes I agree its not a very nice thing to have to say, but in reality the child probably would be better brought up in a 2 parent family with fewer sibblers, with more individual attention and at least one parent working. It used to be the norm in the old days, but nowadays there always seems to be the assumption that the mother is best placed to care for a child.

There dreaming - copied and pasted exactly as you said it!!!

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 15:46:51

Bonquers - absolutely nothing from the likes of you, thanks for offering though. You keep skinning those puppies for fashion accessories.

zebra - how do you know she chose to have all those children?

dreaming - what the fuck do you think the adoption system is about? Ummm care? Again, do you know how much your perfect disgusting solution would cost the taxpayer every financial year?

Who the fuck are you to say people need to have their babies stolen away and put up for adoption? Where would all these adoptive parents come from?

dreamingofsun Wed 12-Jun-13 15:46:53

bacon - i don't believe i did say 'forced'. I stand corrected if I did. I still say that adoption is potentially better for a child - and to be honest i haven't heard anyone argue against that

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 15:47:15

Well something has got to give. This country simply is unable to continue to fund those who have massive families, never work, and then bloody moan about it.

There is x amount in the pot. That pot has to pay welfare, armed forces, police, education, the nhs and gawd knows what else.

More and more cuts are happening in other areas in order to keep the welfare state going.

Have you seen the waiting lists for operations in this country. The wait for referrals to speciallists for treatment. The types of cancer drugs for example which are known to work, yet cannot be used because they are too expensive?

The armed forces on the front line without the correct equipement. Teachers trying to educate classes of 35 plus. A couple of police cars serving an area of many many miles.

I know where i'd rather see it spent.

Ashoething Wed 12-Jun-13 15:47:44

Forcing her to have the kids adopted is nonsensical of course-its not the kids fault. However I don't think the kids would be suffering if they had to move to a smaller house and lose the car-something the mother seems loathe to dohmm

dreamingofsun Wed 12-Jun-13 15:48:07

kaluki - thanks for cutting and pasting - i found my thread OK, but I still can't spot 'forced'?

crashdoll Wed 12-Jun-13 15:48:46

I don't think it is "benefit bashing" to say that some people who are on benefits have an entitled attitude. Of course, some people not on benefits have an entitled attitude too. I think this lady could downsize and also think she was exaggerating the issue of childcare, it's not like they're very young children who would need all day childcare. That said, she had a point about considering individual situations. I am against the benefit cap, I think it will harm vulnerable people - children, older adults and disabled/chronically sick people.

Davsmum Wed 12-Jun-13 15:48:46

Bollocks she is. At the end of the day its women who fall pregnant not men so Im afraid the buck stops with her.
--------------------------------------------------------

What a ridiculous comment - no wonder men can shirk from their responsibilities when you have outdated and sexist views like that!

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Wed 12-Jun-13 15:50:29

But how much money is really being spent on giant feckless families? We can tell this woman that she has to retroactively cut her cloth but we can't ask pensioners if they actually need winter fuel payment?

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 15:50:39

Milligram - I meant in context to Bonquers post re; why are all these girls leaving school and getting themselves it seems pregnant?

I'm actually so fucking pleased you're a man, no idea why. Feels refreshing, I suppose grin

ByTheWishingWell Wed 12-Jun-13 15:51:38

At the end of the day its women who fall pregnant not men so Im afraid the buck stops with her.

Just...wow. Ashoething, do you really not think that men should take equal responsibility for the children they've conceived? Women generally don't just 'fall pregnant' without any input from a man.

Ashoething Wed 12-Jun-13 15:52:27

Its not sexist-its a fact. I agree it is not a very palatable one but there it is. Sadly men can choose to walk away. Of course they should be made to pay.

It has been suggested that she had 6 of her dcs with her ex dh-does it mention in the article what he did for a living for them to afford to have 6 kids?hmm Im assuming he must be minted?...

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 15:52:28

zebra - see that forced sterilisation? I'll be right behind you in your campaign, as soon as you show everyone that you're a good example!

FasterStronger Wed 12-Jun-13 15:52:35

stopping HB at a 3 bedroom house would stop her having the last one.

her room
girls room
boys room

Ashoething Wed 12-Jun-13 15:54:10

I wouldn't be leaving the responsibility of my reproductive health to a man no. But I am forgetting this women fell pregnant 7 times accidentlyhmm or because she wasn't given free access to free contraception according to some posters on here. Againhmm

Davsmum Wed 12-Jun-13 15:54:22

Its not sexist-its a fact. I agree it is not a very palatable one but there it is. Sadly men can choose to walk away.
-------------------------------------------------------

As long as you believe that - you give these men power to walk away without a backward glance.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Wed 12-Jun-13 15:56:27

If she had walked out on him, he would be all 'sad faced' in the Daily Mail as a single father struggling to do hi best by his kids.

Ashoething Wed 12-Jun-13 15:57:08

Its basic biology av-what are you failing to grasp about that? You accuse others on here of making massive assumptions about this women but aren't you guilty of doing the same thing. She chose to have 7 kis because ultimately she was the one who was pregnant-she could have chosen to abort any of them but clearly didn't. So yes she did have a choice.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 15:57:54

Bacon - not at all. You and many other posters are offering your reasoned argument and I, for one, won't be tarring you with the 'crazy' brush that has so obviously affected others....confused

Kaluki Wed 12-Jun-13 15:58:28

Don't split hairs dreaming. We all know what was meant by your comment "It used to be the norm in the old days, but nowadays there always seems to be the assumption that the mother is best placed to care for a child"
I agree that this woman doesn't need a six bed house and probably could do more to look for work, and having the seventh child was not the best idea but there are other ways of dealing with the problems - affordable child care, lower rents, making absent fathers accountable for their children. Not taking children away from their mothers and sending them away to 'better families'

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 15:59:41

Ashoe - go find a DA site. Educate yourself a little tiny bit, you crazy!

FasterStronger Wed 12-Jun-13 16:00:42

she didn't learn from DH not paying for his DC.
and had another child with someone else who doesn't pay either.

they are all v irresponsible and selfish.

grumpyinthemorning Wed 12-Jun-13 16:01:17

Want to talk about knowing? I've been called a scrounger for living on benefits, and a gold-digger for choosing to marry a man with a decent job (not amazing pay, but enough).

I had a shit childhood. My mum didn't work, then my parents divorced and she was on and off benefits for years. She thought the world owed her a living, she would quit jobs just because she didn't like someone she worked with. She constantly tore me down, telling me I would never amount to anything. Obviously, as a teenager, I believed her. I left school with mediocre GCSEs and went straight into unreliable temp work.

Three years later I fell into a relationship with an emotionally and financially abusive man. He didn't want me to work, so I quit. When I fell pregnant he insisted I go through with it, while shagging someone else because being pregnant made me unattractive to him. When I found out about it and confronted him, he hit me. When I left, he told me I was worthless and that no other man would ever want me.

I have applied for literally thousands of jobs, but no joy. My self esteem went through the floor. I seriously considered suicide.

I got lucky when I met DP. He pulls me out of my darkest moments, dragged my self esteem up to a point where I don't feel worthless. Encouraged me to do my degree. A lot of women with similar histories don't have that. I wouldn't be where I am now without him.

I dare you to judge me. And I feel very sorry for that woman. It sometimes takes another to show you how much you can really achieve.

OTTMummA Wed 12-Jun-13 16:02:02

Gravy train?!

I am leaving this thread now as I can virtually see people frothing with excitement at this ladies misfortune.

My final note is, as far as I can see this lady wasn't asking for more, just to not have what she currently gets taken away from her.
She has not got pregnant by herself, nor has she been on full benefits since the birth of her first child, she has been deserted by the father of her children and has a child with SN.

It is quite reasonable to say that this could happen to any of us, maybe not everyone has 7 children, but we would all struggle in our own ways in her position.
We are all capable of ending up in dire circumstances and we need to remember this.

How would you like to be treated if your Husband/partner decided to up and leave you to look after 7 children, one with SN.
I would hope that society could see that I would need support to do the best job of raising my children.
Instead we vilify women who are left in this situation, who are trying within the best of their personal capabilities, why people can not see how futile this attitude is I can not understand.

As for giving children up for adoption,,,, well that's a slippery slope and not far off that is killing children at birth simply for saving what is pennies in comparison to what the major corporations avoid each year in tax.

Capping benefits for 2 children will not stop abusive men forcing women to get pregnant and carry more babies.
Drug addicts who have babies taken away at birth carry on having more and more in the hope that they can keep this one.
If you think people actively decided to have half a football team load of children for the sake of an extra couple of ££ a month then you are quite the simpleton.

thezebrawearspurple Wed 12-Jun-13 16:02:39

zebra - how do you know she chose to have all those children?

She was raised and continues to live in a free country that provides free education, free contraception and free access to abortion. She made her choices.

zebra - see that forced sterilisation? I'll be right behind you in your campaign, as soon as you show everyone that you're a good example!

I don't produce lots of children for a taxpayer funded lifestyle, there's no reason for me to be sterilised.

chenin Wed 12-Jun-13 16:05:43

The CSA should be overhauled... and the feckless father brought to account. The older children should be strongly encouraged to either (a) get a job... any job and contribute to the home or (b) look after their siblings whilst Mum goes out to work.
Anyone who says she might not have been able to get access to contraception is clearly bonkers and I think it's an excuse to start imagining here that her ex husband made her have seven children. Somewhere along the line there is a sense of entitlement with certain people thinking that all they have to do is have babies and the State will pay for them. The benefits system is for those in need, those who temporarily fall on hard times, those who are struggling through illness or disability. It's not a lifestyle choice and the sooner a Government gets to grips with it, the better.

Davsmum Wed 12-Jun-13 16:06:18

Ashoething.
Abortion is not a choice to many people.
I don't know if she 'chose' to have 7 kids - I don't know if she believes in abortion or whether abortion would have been an option for her!
I don't know ( and you certainly don't) much at all about this woman.

If it is PROVED she deliberately had 7 kids so she could live a life of 'luxury' at our expense then I will judge her to be a scrounger.

However- as it is not yet proved - deciding she is a scrounger can only be described as a stupid and reckless judgement.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 16:07:30

grumpy - your an inspiration, and amazingly kind for sharing, because realistically, the majority of posters (on both sides) will have massive admiration for how you've turned life around but there are some very vile people with crazy beliefs who won't be as supportive. flowers for you

chenin Wed 12-Jun-13 16:07:48

And I'm not a simpleton for imagining there are people out there who yes, decide to have more and more children for the £££. Look at that ghastly Mick whatshisname with the awful fire - he openly admitted that 17 children later.

Davsmum Wed 12-Jun-13 16:09:55

Helliebean. So that means its ok to assume everyone in that situation is like Mick?
Why not wait until you know. Trouble is - people do not want any facts or evidence - they can 'just tell' can't they?

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 16:10:53

zebra - you want to force it for others so you show me how it's done and I'll back your campaign.

Again, I'm going to suggest you go have a wee sneaky at how this woman's situation is a red flag for professionals in the DA field.

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 16:10:57

Well it will be PROVED she is a scrounger if she does not adapt her lifestyle to suit the shortfall in the benefit change.

As said, she can downsize her house
get rid of the car.
start some re-training
Take a job
Encourage the elder child to get into work
Have the elder child look after siblings whilst she does a few hours.

Once we see evidence of any of the above, then no, we cannot call her a scrounger. But I think we will be waiting a loooooooooong time.

Anyone who is working and renting/paying a mortgage and their income dropped would certainly be looking at that list and see what they could do. Not go straight to sell their story to a paper with the woe is me attitude she seems to be portraying.

Ashoething Wed 12-Jun-13 16:11:46

feegle so people who happen to disagree with your point of view are "vile" and "crazy"? Wow how reasoned and adult of youhmm

Orwellian Wed 12-Jun-13 16:12:55

Many people on here support removing child benefit from people earning £50k or more (which is £35k after tax) but they are against removing benefits from those "earning" £35k through benefits (when you include things like free school meals, free prescriptions for 7 children this would add up to approx £35k worth of benefits). Why do you think the children of those in work earning £35k after tax should suffer but the children of those on equivalent benefits should be protected?

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 16:16:10

There are a very very very few people in this country who could support 7 children with both parents working.

With that in mind they were irresposible. Not for one moment did they think what if....because the state is their safety net.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 16:17:26

See Beau - this is where we're not in agreement.

You, and others like you, jump to conclusions. You judge and damn and look down your nose.

I try (and others here on this thread obviously do too, thank fuck for humanity) say, it may well be all those horrible things you say. This woman may be a scrounger, she may have chosen this lifestyle BUT....

.... I am using my professional knowledge of women in similar positions, along with my empathy and open mind to say lets look at what else could explain this. Lets see how we can help people like this, lets support and encourage people to allow them to make positive changes.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 16:18:29

Ashoe - not at all, just the vile, crazies. That's all.

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 16:20:38

I also have professional knowledge of the teens these women produce. I have heard all the 'when I leave school, I can claim blah blah and get a place of my own etc' Not a mention of work. Work does not even come into it. They see what their parents get for nothing and a whole new generation is ready to go down the same route.

Davsmum Wed 12-Jun-13 16:20:57

Anyone who is working and renting/paying a mortgage and their income dropped would certainly be looking at that list and see what they could do
---------------------------------------------------

Really? would they? Then why are people going into bankruptcy for overspending on credit cards and loans - People who had good jobs and salaries but just want more and more or to maintain a lifestyle they have got used to.
Of course many people would downsize or cut back but don't say 'Anyone' Don't assume because someone is working they must have excellent morals and are incapable of being reckless.

usualsuspect Wed 12-Jun-13 16:21:37

There are some vile posts on this thread.

WTF has happened to this place?

FreudiansSlipper Wed 12-Jun-13 16:22:31

i do feel sorry for the children and i feel sorry for her not getting any support from her ex partner (s)

but sadly we do have people who just want a big family, there is no or little thought about what happens if you were to loose your job, become ill, partner is ill and so on. the larger you family the more responsibility you have and you have to look at the picture which many fail to do.

we as a society have become about well it is what i want and be more responsible

morethanpotatoprints Wed 12-Jun-13 16:23:00

Orwellian.

Firstly all dc are entitled to free prescriptions anyway. Fsm only have any value if you take them. I know several people including myself at one point who never claimed free entitlement.
If parents are earning over 35k their dc will hardly be suffering, and your figures for 35k benefit don't add up. grin

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 16:23:25

And so don't you think you have a responsibility to those young people to try to inspire them to realise their potential?

You're writing them off. This type of attitude you're describing is very much cultural. These young people often don't realise they can be something more!

Ashoething Wed 12-Jun-13 16:23:28

The tide has turned usual-people are fed up of funding benefits as a lifestyle choice is all.

chenin Wed 12-Jun-13 16:24:21

Davsmum.. I would never assume that everyone on benefits had lots of children for the £££. Someone said up-thread that NO-ONE has lots of children for the money... I said that isn't strictly true because of Mick whatshisname. We all know there are people out there who do. Now whether this woman is one of those, I have no idea.

And I agree with BeauNidle... she needs to prove she is prepared to do something. Yes, she needs encouragement, she is probably in a downward spiral of negativity and I have some sympathy for her. But I found parts of her interview grating... she insisted she wanted the older ones to have a good work ethic (unlike her) but yet did nothing to push them out the door and accepted they could just be there doing nothing.

We should encourage and support people to make positive changes but they have to want those changes in the first place and maybe they have to put up with a bit of hardship and change to get themselves on the path of a better life in the future.

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 16:24:42

It is the norm for these families. And very sad.
Change is def required. They need to be educated that this is not the norm, and that you have to work during your life and look after yourselves and provide for your children. Once they stop all these willy nilly automatic handouts and the next generation realise that they have to actually get off their backsides and earn a living, this country will be a better place for the younguns.

Not so long ago a 4 bedroom council house was pratically unheard of. You stopped having children when you could afford no more. Now we are building 5 6 7 bedroom houses to accomodate, and people are expecting it. Ridic.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 16:26:15

Usual - the tide hasn't turned completely.

Some people are vile, ignorant, and some are even a leetle beet crazy but some are trying to offer balance, education, fact, option and solution. wink

TallulahBetty Wed 12-Jun-13 16:27:24

We have one child. We both work. We'd love another child but will struggle to afford it.

I feel for her kids, but not for her.

Ashoething Wed 12-Jun-13 16:27:41

Yep because daring to have an opinion that differs from yours feegle makes me "vile,ignorant and crazy". Really?

usualsuspect Wed 12-Jun-13 16:27:44

No people are turning into vile DM reading twats.

chenin Wed 12-Jun-13 16:28:21

I agree.... since when was it the norm to have such huge families? Years ago it would be shameful and of course we don't want to go back to that time. But the tide has turned too much the other way. The sense of entitlement, the 'never mind, the state will pay' culture. It's abominable and I think the tide has turned. All hard working people are feeling the squeeze and they are just fed up to the back teeth of seeing stories like this.

grumpyinthemorning Wed 12-Jun-13 16:28:34

I agree with feegle, instead of condemning those who don't know any better, or who don't feel like they can do more with their lives, we should be helping them. It's bloody hard to claw your way up when so many think you're scum.

FasterStronger Wed 12-Jun-13 16:29:18

we should be helping them

we are already.

chenin Wed 12-Jun-13 16:29:21

usual... I am not one of those but I am allowed an opinion. At least I don't resort to name calling. It doesn't work to get a point across.

Davsmum Wed 12-Jun-13 16:29:25

Helliebean
I agree they need support and encouragement - and to be taught HOW to make changes - I am sure many DO want to make changes but don't know where to start.
With encouragement instead of judgement - they may well WANT to make those changes if it is possible.

usualsuspect Wed 12-Jun-13 16:29:37

They fall for the spin every bloody time.

Funny really

morethanpotatoprints Wed 12-Jun-13 16:30:05

Zebra,

So do you think you and your oh? should be sterilised if you lost your jobs? You know, because you would need help from tax payers.

Ashoething Wed 12-Jun-13 16:30:23

Well usual unfortunately for you the country seems to be agreeing that they no longer wish to fund the feckless. You know that the tide is turned when even Labour are saying that the benefit culture will have to changegrin

usualsuspect Wed 12-Jun-13 16:31:34

Labour are no better than the Tories.

It's all spin.

Ashoething Wed 12-Jun-13 16:32:01

People who are in genuine need should always be entitled to our help-its the only decent thing to do. There is a difference between that and the benefits culture which has grew under labour where living on benefits became a lifestyle choice.

Ashoething Wed 12-Jun-13 16:32:24

100% agree with you on that one usual

usualsuspect Wed 12-Jun-13 16:32:54

Unemployment figures rose again today.

Tell me where all others jobs are then?

chenin Wed 12-Jun-13 16:33:22

I'm in total agreement Davsmum. I talk to people like this a lot... there are those out there who want help and encouragement. Unfortunately, there are those out there too, who just want things the way they are. I agree it's a red rag to a bull type interview... and yes we and probably I sit in judgement... but I do think hardworking couples are absolutely sick to the back teeth of those that get such huge amounts of money from the State when they are struggling to bring up their 1 or 2 children and pay the bills.

grumpyinthemorning Wed 12-Jun-13 16:33:48

FasterStronger, how are we helping? I know there are charities and organisations that offer support, but what about the people who can't access it? I couldn't. Does that mean I didn't want to? No. But it's never as easy as it looks from the outside.

FreudiansSlipper Wed 12-Jun-13 16:33:57

i am not sure people have more children to gain more money but there are many who go on having children with little or no thought about how they themselves shall fund a larger home and the cost of having more children

i never really beleived there was such a culture until i went back to college i met so many people who have no intention of working and claim every bit of money they can and feel entitled to do so with no thought of working and paying into the pot themselves and they all had children. sad t

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 16:34:05

grumpy in what ways would you propose helping?

Apart from the help she is already receiving (over 2k a month)

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 16:34:54

Ashoe - go educate yourself on how some women are forced to continually bear children.

See how, for some, it's not a choice and that contraception isn't available to all.

Be open to these possibilities, and others, and then you and I can converse.

I can't engage with close-minded, ignorant people.

I'm tired of trying to explain how common this type of situation is.

My comment about you being a crazy is in reference to your shite sarcastic comment up thread where you tried to make my quite possible explanation look like I had an over active imagination.

Hence why I suggest you educate yourself on the facts.

I will say it again - I am not saying this woman is living the ideal but here's a plausible explanation. Not just a lets fucking judge her to be scum!

Ashoething Wed 12-Jun-13 16:34:58

My dh had many immigrant clients-they always seem able to find work. Why is that?

I am not saying this women does not deserve some kind of support but do I think that support entitles her to a 6 bedroom house and 2 grand+ a month? Absolutely not.

FreudiansSlipper Wed 12-Jun-13 16:35:14

the sad thing is they were being given an opportunity to change their life many people who are working would not get this chance but it was no appreciated

Kaluki Wed 12-Jun-13 16:36:20

The best way to stop the benefit culture would be to make life affordable for those who aren't lucky enough to have well paid jobs.
A good start would be to stop fat cat landlords buying up properties and charging extortionate rents. Three houses in my street are owned by the same guy and he charges twice what I pay the housing association.
Also build more affordable housing association houses for hard working families to rent.
It's no wonder people stay on benefits when working means you end up poorer!!

Ashoething Wed 12-Jun-13 16:36:20

Do you know this women personally feegle?-is that how you know she was "forced" to have 7 kids?hmm

morethanpotatoprints Wed 12-Jun-13 16:37:06

Ashoething.

All people on benefit need our help and support.
They don't need the vile suggestions that you and others have come up with such as forced sterilisation or adoption.
If there are people living on benefit as a lifestyle choice, so what. there have always been a minority of people who have grown up in this situation and then passed it on to the next generation. There always will be. The problem we have are so many ill educated people listening to the spin and reading the rubbish in the Mail.

Ashoething Wed 12-Jun-13 16:37:32

"Its no wonder people stay on benefits when working means you end uo poorer"-and there in a nutshell is why the welfare state MUST be reformed. It should not be a choice to remain living on benefits.

usualsuspect Wed 12-Jun-13 16:37:59

So solutions on this thread are forced sterilisation and taking the children into care?

God grief I can't believe I'm reading this shite

Ashoething Wed 12-Jun-13 16:38:28

I never mentioned either steralisation or adoption so please check your facts.

chenin Wed 12-Jun-13 16:38:54

I agree Ashoething. Where's the incentive? Who would bother to look for work with that sort of money coming in?

When my DD was 15 and wanted more pocket money (I gave her about 50p a week lol) I suggested she got a job. She trawled around and found something... it took some effort but the desire for money made her. She never stopped part time working alongside school and Uni. If I had paid her an allowance, she would never have got a job. This family are being given enough money to live on... why would they bother? If it were less perhaps the incentive would be there for HER 15 and 17 yr old to work and bring some money into the house.

FasterStronger Wed 12-Jun-13 16:39:36

usualsuspect Wed 12-Jun-13 16:32:54

Unemployment figures rose again today.

no - they fell by 5000

Ashoething Wed 12-Jun-13 16:40:23

usual-I told you the tide has turned. Twas a time on here as I mentioned in a previous post that if you dared to suggest there was any such thing as a benefit scrounger that you were shouted off the thread. Things change....

usualsuspect Wed 12-Jun-13 16:41:23

Let the children starve then.

grumpyinthemorning Wed 12-Jun-13 16:41:40

Money isn't help. Money is survival.

I obviously can't speak for every situation, but in mine - GP spotted the depression but wrote it off as pregnancy related. Midwife had an inkling of what was going on, but her response was to "snap out of it". Perhaps better training in spotting red flags? In offering the support in discreet ways so abusive partners don't find out? I don't have all the answers, even now, but just one person saying "I understand. Let's change this" would have helped.

chenin Wed 12-Jun-13 16:42:04

Forget unemployment figures. I live middle of nowhere and somehow my DD managed it. (she rang up the local farmer... long story!) If you have enough desire to, there ARE jobs out there. People like this need help and encouragement to get into this mindset though.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 12-Jun-13 16:42:08

I have something very profound to contribute to this thread.

It is..

FFS hmm

usualsuspect Wed 12-Jun-13 16:42:17

They rose in the region I live in

I don't feel sorry for her.

Contraception is free.

She chose this life.

Ashoething Wed 12-Jun-13 16:42:37

Have to go make the dinner-I think this has been an interesting debate even if opinions have differed. Is'nt it interesting that those who deem themselves to be compassionate are the ones on here who have had to resort to name calling?...

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 16:42:38

Everyone here is talking about help and support (and no I'm not one of those talking about sterilisation or adoption, that is utter rubbish) but what more, other than over £2k a month, can the state give?!

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 16:43:03

If I had a pound for every time I hear the words 'I cannot afford to come off benefits' I'd be a very rich lady.

And it is so wrong. It is the proof that the workers are subsidising a better lifestyle than their own.

They are stating they cannot afford to go to work. The flaming cheek! You never hear them say, oh that poor sod down the road is working 15 hours a day to keep his family, then swapping with his wife who will work into the night to get some extra money whilst he juggles the children.

Floggingmolly Wed 12-Jun-13 16:43:45

some women are forced to continually bear children
It's a huge leap to assume this is what happened here, but let's just say if it did; what are the chances of her meeting another man after her husband left who "forced" her to have her seventh?
> a million to one, I'd imagine and yet having had six kids with someone who refused to pay a penny towards their upkeep she blithely had another with someone else.

Nothing is going to change until the benefits system changes in so far as not giving people more money for having more kids.

usualsuspect Wed 12-Jun-13 16:44:25

It's bloody depressing ,Fanjo.

It's like the DM comments page

MrsBucketxx Wed 12-Jun-13 16:44:27

its obscene 2000 a month is way more per person than I will ever have for any of my family and we work hard.

ByTheWishingWell Wed 12-Jun-13 16:44:43

""Its no wonder people stay on benefits when working means you end uo poorer"-and there in a nutshell is why the welfare state MUST be reformed. It should not be a choice to remain living on benefits."

____

Surely this is, in a nutshell, why the minimum wage should be raised at least to the level of the living wage, and ways to provide less expensive childcare considered? I would rather life was made better for working parents than worse for non-working parents.

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 16:44:53

grumpy sorry, didn't see your post.

That may not help in this case though as we don't know if she has had an abusive partner.

Kaluki Wed 12-Jun-13 16:45:18

But cutting benefits isn't the answer -we should make it worthwhile for people to go out and work. If 40 hours a week on minimum wage will barely cover your rent and bills then you can see why people don't do it.
Not everyone has the intelligence to do a well paid job. Somebody has to clear rubbish / sweep roads / work in shops etc and these are the people who struggle in today's economy to make ends meet. My neighbour works in Tesco and she really struggles but her sister is on benefits and is better off - how is that right?

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 16:46:20

usual I doubt the children will starve. No doubt there are fsm, and of course she could halve the size of her house and there would be plenty of cash for food. Or sell the car. Or get a job. Or get the 17 year old to go and get a job. You know it's strange to think everyone will starve. It is called living within your means. Budgeting etc.
We all have to do that.

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 16:46:27

usualsuspect I really don't think the downsize into a smaller house than 6 bedrooms (which is what she's saying she'll have to do because of the new cap) is going to result in the children starving.

Ashoething Wed 12-Jun-13 16:46:39

Really is that the best you can come up with usual? To call people who have different opinion to yourself DM readers? People are just sick and tired of funding a lifestyle that they themselves can only dream of. Of course you may twist that as you wish to oh well all those who support benefit reform want a return to the workhouse but its shite and you know it.

Orwellian Wed 12-Jun-13 16:48:28

Morethanpotatoprints - Not really. She is currently getting £32k per year. If you factor in free school meals for 7 children, say at £2 per day over 38 weeks, that is another £2,660, so £34,660 (only free to those on certain benefits). So a total equivalent benefits income of £34,660. You would need to earn just shy of £50k to take home that. Perhaps her benefits income should be taxed in the same way that someone earning £32k per year is currently, in which case she would take home £24,500.

I can imagine that all those families out there earning £32k per year but taking home £24,500 must feel pretty annoyed that this woman is getting £7,500 more than them without having to go out to work and that doesn't even include free school meals and other benefit freebies that people in work aren't entitled to.

Kaluki Wed 12-Jun-13 16:49:21

Thankyou Wishing. You said what I was trying to say only better!!
grin

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 12-Jun-13 16:49:38

usual, it is, am not reading much of it as I can imagine.

tethersend Wed 12-Jun-13 16:50:05

Yes, it's an awful drain on the taxpayer to fund them; take the children into care. It'll be much cheaper at £2,500 ish per week. Per child. Hang on.

How about sending them to Eton?

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 12-Jun-13 16:50:41

i cant imagine thinking children should be moved into a smaller house and lose their own bedrooms.

What kind of mentality is that?

Ah..one which just cares about money

usualsuspect Wed 12-Jun-13 16:51:53

You know what I don't care how much money she gets a month.

And neither did you, until the Tories started their let's bash the benefit scroungers campaign.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 16:52:17

Flogging - actually, she's more likely to enter a consecutive abusive relationship.

I didn't say this was the case, I said in my workplace, this woman's situation would have raised a red flag to myself and my colleagues.

I'd rather look at all possibilities before condemning someone as a scrounger.

Again, I said a possibility Ashoe - do you know her intimately to say its not?

grumpyinthemorning Wed 12-Jun-13 16:52:44

BaconKetchup, if it's not her situation then no, it won't help. But if it was, it could have been a lifeline. There are many women it could help.

Also, better training for teachers to spot abusive or neglectful parents, and more resources to change that. After all, a lot of these problems begin in childhood.

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 16:53:51

Of course, she should never have had the 6 bed in the first place. That is rather greedy don't you think? Knowing someone else would be funding it.

You know plenty of people who have bought houses and circumstances have changed and have had to move to smaller ones with children sharing again. Not sure that anyone died through it though. Far more imortant to feed the child, than marvel at the fact he/she has his/her own room hmm

HollyBerryBush Wed 12-Jun-13 16:54:01

I read this on another news site earlier in the week.

The phrase that leapt out at me was 'blah blah on-off boyfriend, father of the youngest child' and I immediately though, "yeah, bet it's on on a Friday night when they both fancy a shag and off the rest of the time so she can maximise her state income". Unfortunately there are people like this, who know how to play the system, they are in effect together but choose to live apart. Don't say they don't exist, my aunts daughter managed this for years, 4 well spaced children, all had the same father, the parents never actually cohabited for anything more than 2 nights a week. I know they exist.

But now there isn't the money in the state system to continue to subsidise this lifestyle.

You want something? earn the money and pay for it - there are lots of people who have had to stop at one or two children, who would have dearly loved more but knew they couldn't afford to.

The welfare state was designed to be a safety blanket for the less fortunate not a lifestyle choice for the feckless and bone idle.

tethersend Wed 12-Jun-13 16:54:27

"People are just sick and tired of funding a lifestyle that they themselves can only dream of."

What a coincidence! The government feel exactly that way too!

Spooky that everyone's come to their own conclusions at the same time as a government campaign demonising those on benefits. Sorry, skivers.

chenin Wed 12-Jun-13 16:55:04

Let's blame DM readers, let's blame lack of contraception, let's blame the tories and let's try and think of every reason under the sun why this woman and her teenage children don't work. It's a mindset that needs to be changed. Hard working people are sick to the back teeth of it.

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 16:55:38

usualsuspect why do you not care what the government spends its money on?

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 16:56:47

I also don't read the DM. I read the guardian & the telegraph to try and get some balance.

usualsuspect Wed 12-Jun-13 16:57:31

I'm happy for the government to spend money on children.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 12-Jun-13 16:57:49

"People are just sick and tired of funding a lifestyle that they themselves can only dream of."

i dont dream of having no job and bringing up 7 kids on 2k a month on my own

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 16:58:22

I'm hardworking and so is my DP.

Don't you assume you speak for everyone who breaks their back to provide for their families thanks.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 12-Jun-13 16:59:28

yes..we also work hard and don't go around being jealous and resentful of others for what they are given!

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Wed 12-Jun-13 17:00:04

"there are lots of people who have had to stop at one or two children, who would have dearly loved more but knew they couldn't afford to."

You see, this always confuses me. Why do these folks not go on benefits themselves, and have as many kids as they like, since it's such a great lifestyle?

claig Wed 12-Jun-13 17:00:21

"I also don't read the DM. I read the guardian & the telegraph to try and get some balance."

I find all the balance I need in the DM.

As you were wink

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 17:00:33

Like we've been saying again and again Fanjo, what's to be jealous of?

FreudiansSlipper Wed 12-Jun-13 17:00:54

i read the guardian

it is not the tories that has made me realise that changes have to be made. there are many reasons but having met many people who feel so entitled and lack responsibility was a real shock to me

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 17:01:03

We also work hard, and are very resentful of others and what they are given when it is a lifestyle choice.

FasterStronger Wed 12-Jun-13 17:01:03

You see, this always confuses me. Why do these folks not go on benefits themselves, and have as many kids as they like, since it's such a great lifestyle?

because you cannot just resign your job & claim
because they have a sense of personal responsibility!

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 17:01:37

Boulevard - don't, you'll have them all thinking grin

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 17:01:48

And because we want to set an example for our children.

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 17:01:57

claig is your post serious? confused

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 17:02:51

Bacon - ketchup is so common shockwink

FasterStronger Wed 12-Jun-13 17:03:01

and because it depends about what options are open to you:

100k pa FT v benefits, no thanks
15k pa FT v benefits, yes please

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 17:03:38

That was lighthearted, of course, Bacon. Please don't take offence smile

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 17:03:40

I don't understand confused

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 17:03:59

I'm not taking offence but I genuinely don't understand grin

Floggingmolly Wed 12-Jun-13 17:04:05

I can't imagine thinking the children should be moved into a smaller house and lose their own bedrooms. What kind of mentality is that? Ah..one which just cares about money. hmm
No, to be specific, Fanjo, cares about who's earning the money.

merrymouse Wed 12-Jun-13 17:04:09

Don't have strong feelings either way about her. However feckless she may have been, her children exist and one way or another our society has to care for every child in the uk. I imagine it is cheaper for them to be cared for by a loving mother than be put into care.

I do feel sorry for all benefit claimants who will find life tougher because of this kind of rather irrelevant headline. Have daybreak give much coverage to cuts in legal aid?

HollyBerryBush Wed 12-Jun-13 17:04:22

Because I like work, I have a work ethic, and I was brought up not to put my hand out expecting to be filled by someone else.

As I said, and I will say it again and again and again: The welfare state was designed to be a safety blanket for the less fortunate not a lifestyle choice for the feckless and bone idle.

No one objects when the welfare state is used for its proper purpose.

Upon further reading, not included in the tot up of money is 2 lots of DLA and carers allowance.

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 17:04:53

Boulevard - we also know that this money comes by taking it from armed forces, police, nhs, education et al.
If we all had that attitude there'd be folk moaning that they can't have an operation without an 18 month wait etc etc.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 17:06:43

Just a wee joke, but everyone knows it should be bacon and brown sauce grin

Just because we've got opposing opinions, doesn't mean we can't giggle. wink

merrymouse Wed 12-Jun-13 17:06:52

Sometimes less fortunate means being born into a family that isn't very good at family planning.

Large families have high benefits because the parents claim m

claig Wed 12-Jun-13 17:06:56

claig is your post serious?

Absolutely.

We have a declining birth rate. We need more people. £32000 per year benefits is nothing compared to the expenses and taxi fares paid by the taxpayer to some MPs.

There are very few families with 7 children and £32000 is much cheaper than caring for them in social care and the outcome for the kids will be much better with their family.

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 17:07:45

ItsallFeegle Oh I see grin No no no, bacon with ketchup is the food of the gods. Can't besmirch it with brown sauce!

merrymouse Wed 12-Jun-13 17:08:04

Oops

.........
Claim money on behalf of their children, not because they have a right to claiming for themselves.

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 17:08:26

claig I'm not talking about any post like that confused

I'm talking about the post about the DM?

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 17:08:54

Lets stop funding illegal wars instead of demonising benefits claimants...there's a thought hmm

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 17:10:01

Oh FFS! Me and you, Bacon, we were never meant to be grin

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Wed 12-Jun-13 17:10:17

I'd also be interested to meet this mythical landlord who's going to rent their 3-bed property to someone on HB with 7 kids...

grumpyinthemorning Wed 12-Jun-13 17:10:39

The majority do use benefits as a safety net. Am on my phone so can't find them right now, but there are studies on the rate of depression amongst benefit claimants. You have to be seriously messed up to prefer a soul-crushing life on benefits.

And it is soul-crushing. I sincerely hope none of you find yourselves in that position.

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 17:10:54

ItsallFeegle - Nobody is demonising benefits claimants as a whole. It is those who have chosen this as a lifestyle choice that we have the issue with. Of which there are many, and numbers growing every day.

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 17:11:11

Feegle there's still hope if your username is a reference to the Terry Pratchett books... grin

ophelia275 Wed 12-Jun-13 17:11:43

BeauNidle, she can't downsize. Don't you know that making her children share a room (2 to each room) would be too traumatic on her children and would be cruel beyond words. Her children have got used to having their own rooms. What kind of society would we be if we expected children to share bedrooms? Only a frothing Daily Mail reading Tory would suggest such Dickensian cruelty wink.

HollyBerryBush Wed 12-Jun-13 17:11:46

We need these children? Why? Both parents are unemployed, children tend to follow parental patterns of behaviour - in a few years if they all do follow the same pattern, there will be 49 of them doing nothing and bemoaning they don't have a 6 bedroomed house each.

I fail to see exactly why we need them. What use are they?

FasterStronger Wed 12-Jun-13 17:12:05

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 12-Jun-13 16:50:41

i cant imagine thinking children should be moved into a smaller house and lose their own bedrooms. What kind of mentality is that? Ah..one which just cares about money

is that a serious comment?

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Wed 12-Jun-13 17:12:16

Yeah, BaconKetchup, claig truly believes the Daily Mail is the source of all truth and knowledge. He/she is a bit of a character, as we say back inthe old country.

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 17:12:24

Doesn't have to be a landlord Boulevard. The council has it's own housing. Landlords came into force when larger houses were needed.

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 17:12:41

Can somebody please explain to me what claig is on about, with reading the DM and then posting something completely random when I asked for clarification on that...

FreudiansSlipper Wed 12-Jun-13 17:12:48

i want to see that too

there are many things i want to see changes too, companies being able to pay a small amount of tax, the cost of producing weapons and the money we make from selling weapons to countries that have terrible human rights records, the money that is wasted in the nhs are just some on my list but this thread is not about that

BaconKetchup Wed 12-Jun-13 17:13:12

Oh right boulevard grin

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 17:13:38

And alot of landlords love to have HB tennants, as they know the rent will be paid. Less risk you see.

ItsallFeegle Wed 12-Jun-13 17:14:28

Course it is Bacon grin can't you tell? I , after all, a tenacious wee bastard wink

Beau - can you link to evidence of this? Lifestyle choice benefits claimants, that is? Thanks.

BeauNidle Wed 12-Jun-13 17:15:19

I think you are quite capable of googling yourself ItsallFreegle wink