To think getting pregnant "accidentally&q uot; is not ok

(156 Posts)
Buddhagirl Fri 07-Jun-13 23:02:14

Conversion with a gf yesterday along the lines of:

Me: i really want to start ttc I wish dh would agree to start sooner
Her: just come off contraception and don't tell him, you will both love the baby and make it work
Me: isn't that unfair and a bit immoral?
Her: loads of people do it, what's the worst that could happen?

I do wonder how many "accidents" are really accidents. I can see how women would want to do this and I'm sure most do cope and it's ok, but surely it's really unfair?

Dannilion Fri 07-Jun-13 23:05:31

The situation your 'gf' decided is horrid. I wouldn't want anything to do with someone who could be so selfish.

However, DD was a real, unplanned accident. It happens.

Dannilion Fri 07-Jun-13 23:06:00

*described

CloudsAndTrees Fri 07-Jun-13 23:06:06

Of course it's unfair. Do you really need to ask?

Although I don't suppose there are loads of people doing it. Some maybe, but not loads.

SirBoobAlot Fri 07-Jun-13 23:06:54

DS was so unplanned you wouldn't believe.

Your 'friend' sounds rather questionable on the 'moral' department.

Sleepyhoglet Fri 07-Jun-13 23:07:06

It isn't a very mature attitude. It could have a negative impact on your baby if you were to have one deliberately by tricking him. Years down the line he may resent you for making the choice for him and make excuses. You need to go into this honestly. What ar ethics reasons for wanting to wait? A child is such a big ligpfe change you cannot foist that on someone who is not ready.

HoHoHoNoYouDont Fri 07-Jun-13 23:07:31

It's such a selfish thing to do.

Isn't unfair too though if a male partner is preventing a woman from conceiving? There's a lot of opprobrium poured on women who deceptively and deliberately get pregnant and precious little on men who deceptively enter and continue relationships saying they want kids 'one day' but never committing ttc.

I think both is a bit crap but both happen A LOT. Bottom line is if you don't want a child then you need to be responsible for ensuring your own fertility is contained. Men who don't want 'accidents' need to abstain, insist on condoms + another method and be confident they're using them correctly or have a vasectomy. How many can be bothered with any of that?

Nottalotta Fri 07-Jun-13 23:08:37

I wouldn't think its a good idea.....saying that, friend got9 preggers on the depo jab..!

StuntGirl Fri 07-Jun-13 23:09:25

It's a terrible fucking idea.

It was my grandmothers advice to my cousin who wants a child and her husband doesn't. My grandmother is of the opinion that childbearing is the be all and end all of a woman's aspirations, and that a woman must go to whatever lengths necessary to have one. I love her but I think she's batshit.

MangoJuiceAddict Fri 07-Jun-13 23:11:10

Very immature attitude. To 'accidentally' get pregnant is so selfish and immature. My DD was completely accidental and as soon as I told people I was pregnant they questioned me on just how unplanned: 'did you use contraception?' OF COURSE I DID!!! I really hate to think that there are people who trick others into having a baby sad. Imagine if the rolse were reversed and your DP was planning to have a child without telling you shock.

lookingfoxy Fri 07-Jun-13 23:12:56

My current pregnancy is planned and its a strain on our relationship at times.
I can't imagine how much strain and resentment an unplanned pregnancy would cause.
I think it would lead to some couples splitting up.

Oh god, before dh and I started talking about ttc ds2, the number of people that said to me "are you having any more?" I replied "not yet, I'm keen, dh - not so much", the sheer amount of people who said "just come off the pill/whatever you are using, get pregnant, it will be fine, my mates best friends next door neighbours auntie did it and her husband was secretly pleased"!!!!

I think it's incredibly disloyal, immoral and downright disgusting, I certainly learnt a lot about some people and their principles!!

goneHaywire Fri 07-Jun-13 23:13:23

DO NOT DO THAT!

You both need to be ready. Having a baby requires a massive mental, emotional, physical and logistical shift in both your lives.

Our dd is 11mo now and dh is still adjusting. To spring this kind of upheaval commitment on someone is not fair to them, you, or the baby

Casmama Fri 07-Jun-13 23:17:33

What's the worst that could happen? Your dh doesn't believe it was an accident, the lack of trust and anger leads to divorce and your child never forgives you for it.
Your friend is an idiot.

Buddhagirl Fri 07-Jun-13 23:17:58

Yeah kinda needed to ask as she and others on this thread have said lots of people do it /suggest other people do it. Mad world.

BabyMakesMyEyesGoSleepy Fri 07-Jun-13 23:23:31

Imagine if a man was discussing sabotaging a condom so as to get his wife pregnant by 'accident'? Its never right to trick someone into creating a child.

MyBaby1day Sat 08-Jun-13 06:11:07

Selfish, you should both want a child, it's a HUGE responsibility. Not a fair thing to do AT ALL. Some people simply don't want children, they want to do other things with their lives and fair enough. You shouldn't do this.

SpooMoo Sat 08-Jun-13 07:35:31

Think through all the consequences - you get upduffed and DP is not ready so suggests an abortion... what then? What if you keep the baby and then in say 15 years time you admit it was no accident, how gutted would he feel, you might break up then. Yuck, I hope women don't really do what your friend suggested.

TVTonight Sat 08-Jun-13 07:38:17

I do think it is perfectly fair to come off contraception and tell him you're doing it.

Sounds like something an immature girl would say not a grown woman! I know of people who have done this and it hasn't worked out - some were together for a bit, some broke up immediately. Mostly teens/early twenties at the time but i think a man forced into fatherhood at any age would think to bolt.

I'm pg with dc3 at the moment - total accident, pill didn't work. The amount of people who gave said yeah wink wink you wanted another baby or my moron sister who thinks i got pregnant to steal her limelight. Fecking idiot dc2 was barely one when i fell with this baby, a massive shock and my relationship has been strained for quite some time since finding out as even df wondered if it was deliberate.

Perseis Sat 08-Jun-13 07:47:38

Men who don't want 'accidents' need to abstain, insist on condoms + another method and be confident they're using them correctly or have a vasectomy.

^^ This

Although a relationship is a partnership, so if one person has assumed responsibility for something (contraception, grocery shopping, car maintenance, whatever) it's only fair to warn the other person when you decide to stop having that responsibility. Then they can plan their behaviour accordingly.

It's not the height of evil though IMO as some people would have you believe. Women need to have babies before a certain age, they will therefore in some cases want to TTC before men have adjusted to the idea. You don't get to control everything in life, and as NorthernLurker pointed out, foisting your own contraceptive responsibilitie on to someone else means ceding control over the decision to an extent.

ShadowStorm Sat 08-Jun-13 07:49:22

I think it's a very bad idea to "accidentally" get pregnant like that.

Having a baby is a massive change to your lives, and if one partner isn't ready, then it's very wrong for the other partner to deliberately trick them into a pregnancy. And I'd think that this kind of attitude has also got the potential to create problems for women who really do get pregnant completely accidentally.

And I bet your friend wouldn't think this was reasonable if the situation was the other way round.

My DH wanted to start TTC for DC2 from when DS was about 6 months old. I wanted to wait until DS was at least 1yr before TTC. Would it have been okay for DH to deliberately sabotage our contraception in order to get me pregnant faster, and justify it by arguing that I did want a DC2 someday, so what difference would it make?

meditrina Sat 08-Jun-13 07:54:02

I simply don't believe that "loads" of people do it.

It's wrong.

But you do need to talk to DH about when you start TTC. Why does he want to wait?

If you're in a relationship with someone, honesty is part of that. It's one thing to say "I want a child, I'm coming off contraception". Then a man can take responsibility himself and if he's not ready he can take his own precautions. But to be deceptive about it isn't a good thing in my opinion. If you're not able to be open and honest with each other, it doesn't bode well for parenthood really does it?

Obviously accidents happen, and you deal with them the best you can, but to deliberately bring that about without the other person's knowledge is evidence of some serious communication problems.

AThingInYourLife Sat 08-Jun-13 08:01:43

I agree with Northern.

I find the idea that men have a right to consequence-free sex, with a partner who takes care of contraception even though she wants to have a baby, really horrible.

KittyPryde Sat 08-Jun-13 08:02:40

It's how my DP got here! I've never quite been able to look st MIL the same way since finding that out. It's manipulative and selfish, the potential for problems to arise is massive. I'd say it answers a lot of questions about my DP'S childhood. He was unplanned (by FIL) but his sibling was planned by both. Noticeable difference in their parental relationships even now they're in their thirties.

LookingThroughTheFog Sat 08-Jun-13 08:07:06

I often wonder whether I trapped my DH into having a baby.

The situation was a little different though, in that he knew I wasn't using contraception (I can't take the pill, so he was pretty clear that there was no condom involved), and he had sex with me anyway. Plus, we'd intended to start trying the following January, and this was in December.

He did ask 'well how safe are you?' and I was just newly off my period, so I said I thought I was OK. The thing is, we continued to have sex that week, and he was still clear there was no condom, so I do wonder what he thought was going to happen. He's not stupid, and has a degree in biology.

Anyhow, he was delighted, if a little surprised, when we got pregnant.

Prior to that all happening, we had had a heartfelt conversation the previous summer, because I was hearing a lot of 'one day, but not yet,' and eventually I sat him down and told him it wasn't good enough any more. I needed to know when. I was planning my life around children, and it was getting harder and harder to push it away indefinitely.

With my last post, I didn't meant to imply it's always the woman's responsibility to take care of the contraception in the first instance, it may have read a little like that.

In our relationship, I take the pill. That's our understanding and the best way it works for that as we've discussed it. So my husband trusts that I take it and neither of us need to worry. If I just suddenly stopped without discussing it with him and expected him to take responsibility without even informing him things had changed, then I feel that would be deceptive of me. If you're in a committed relationship you discuss these things surely?

We've also discussed that we may want another child possibly in a couple of years...if we decide we don't then DH will have a vasectomy. If an accident happened in the meantime, then we will deal with it.

Morloth Sat 08-Jun-13 08:17:47

Each person needs to take responsibility for their own contraception.

Having said that, my DH trusts me. I have a mirena, he knows I would absolutely love another baby but he really does not want one.

He knows that even though I want another baby, hell would freeze over before I lied to him about my contraception.

So it would be horrendous of me to remove my mirena without telling him and get knocked up.

If we have an accidental pregnancy, he knows as he trusts me that it really would be an accident.

Satnightdropout Sat 08-Jun-13 08:18:54

Partner has 4 children with his ex. They had planned a divorce but still sleeping with each other (hence why I have no sympathy for partner) and she "accidently" fell pregnant. She's done it 2 times since then with other men.
Partner loves all his kids and they always come first BUT has admitted that he just can't seem to bond with the fourth as he believes they wouldn't have got back together if she hadn't of fallen pregnant and wouldn't have had another 6 years of unhappy marriage. It wasn't until I mentioned that he didn't seem as close to the fourth that he admitted this.

I have no sympathy for him as he could've used something or just not have sex with her, however, I do feel sorry for the youngest as he will notice soon.

Fair enough if you want to "accidently" fall pregnant because you're late in age etc...And desperate for children regardless of whether father is in the picture or not.
Just seems a bit wrong doing it and then expecting his yo hang around, pay and support to child even though he had no say in the matter. And for people who say, yeah well, a woman doesn't get much say in the matter of she falls, yes she does, it's called abortion. A father doesn't get a say in that.

LittlePeaPod Sat 08-Jun-13 08:23:29

Accidents happen... BUT, I know a girl that bragged about doing this at work... She became a single mum to twin girls, her DP dumped her (after 4 years together) because he felt trapped. He moved away and has nothing to do with the girls and doesn't pay a penny... She's really struggling now and I really feel sorry for her little girls. But she created this situation.

TeapotsInJune Sat 08-Jun-13 08:30:55

The problem is that most long term forms of contraception are designed for women; furthermore, they are ones that are invasive or come with changes in hormones or similar. The Pill is if course 'safe' IF its taken correctly but all it takes is a tummy upset to throw all that off balance.

DD was a 'surprise' although not a huge one as we never used contraception - used natural family planning - I really don't like the idea of the. Oil or the pill and have never used either. Used condoms until we got to the point where a baby wouldn't be a bad thing, and she isn't.

Chunderella Sat 08-Jun-13 08:31:30

I wouldn't say she created it, LittlePeaPod. Some of it, not all. While I strongly disagree with what she did, the only part she created is the twin girls with a father who didn't want them. He did the moving away, ignoring his children and failing to fulfil his legal financial responsibilities all by himself.

And OP, I can assure you my accident genuinely was an accident! With DH being much more pleased about it than I was initially. We were being slightly lax about contraception, but at the time I genuinely did think we'd be fine.

Satnightdropout I hope you have as little sympathy for your partner as you do for his ex re 4th child, then. Unless she literally sabotaged the condoms beforehand.

AThingInYourLife Sat 08-Jun-13 08:33:22

"She became a single mum to twin girls, her DP dumped her (after 4 years together) because he felt trapped. He moved away and has nothing to do with the girls and doesn't pay a penny... She's really struggling now and I really feel sorry for her little girls. But she created this situation."

See this is where this kind of thing spills into open misogyny.

He also created this situation.

He has two children he is taking zero responsibility for, that were conceived when he was taking no responsibility for his own fertility, and yet the woman who is struggling to look after those children is the bad guy.

SanityClause Sat 08-Jun-13 08:33:30

No, Little Pea, he was half involved in creating the situation. He couldve taken responsibility for his own fertility if he didn't want children, as could she. And as for not seeing his children , and not paying, yet all your tut tutting is for her. Mysoginistic, or what?

DH doesn't want any more children. I accidentally (but not "accidentally") fell pregnant on the Mirena with our third DC. So, he had a vasectomy.

TeapotsInJune Sat 08-Jun-13 08:33:46

Littlepeapod, my husband was happy when I was pregnant. Then we split. Then he moved to Ireland and doesn't pay a penny in child support and never sees DD.

You can feel sorry for her if you like,or accept she lives in a lovely home with devoted parent and has all her needs met. There are always marriage horror-stories of the "I know someone who" lines. I know plenty of people who didn't 'trick' their husbands who still found they were married to twats.

If you don't want a baby YOU need to take responsibility for that.

SanityClause Sat 08-Jun-13 08:34:25

X post

Joiningthegang Sat 08-Jun-13 08:41:07

I agree that you shouldn't do the "accident" thing,

However, of the man doesn't want more children they should be actively taking responsibility for this not happening.

Male friend always said he only wanted one child. Once the baby was a year he had a vasectomy - realising his wife would probably want another one. Due to the op the conversation never really happened.

Good on him - wish more men were like that

LittlePeaPod Sat 08-Jun-13 08:42:29

I dont agree that he does pay up. He should pay. but she put herself in that position.. My point is she created the situation she is in. He told her he wasn't ready and she bragged to the girls that she had told him she had a coil and didn't like condoms so they were safe. She didn't give him the option to protect himself by using a condom because she LIED. On that basis she created the situation that she's in. She has to take responsibility for that...

Santy please give it break with the mysoginistic... grin

Roshbegosh Sat 08-Jun-13 08:44:09

It is not that uncommon, so many women I have met professionally who say it was an accident but that meant that they didn't use contraception but weren't explicitly saying let's make a baby. How this counts as an accident beats me.

LittlePeaPod Sat 08-Jun-13 08:45:28

Teapot that's a different situation. You both wanted the children and he had a choice in the decision.

I will make myself clear again. Men should pay up for their kids, but I have no sympathy for a woman that lies and deceitfully falls pregnant... It's wrong!

TeapotsInJune Sat 08-Jun-13 08:48:47

Different thoughts and feelings, maybe, same result smile

Either she's a perfectly adequate parent, or she is not - if the former the kids don't need your pity, if the latter, that's got nothing to do with the topic.

LittlePeaPod Sat 08-Jun-13 08:53:30

I feel sorry for the kids because thy didn't ask to be born into the situation. I don't feel sorry for her because she knowingly lied.. BTW she herself admits she purposely tapped him and hoped he would just accept the situation... It backfired..

Chunderella Sat 08-Jun-13 08:53:39

Littlepeapod no, she didn't create the situation she's in. She created some of it, not all. At most you might argue that it was reasonably foreseeable that her DP would do a runner and have nothing to do with the children. But those things were not created by her, and you can tell this because they were not within her control. He could have decided to stay local and pay for them- that was also reasonably foreseeable- and she wouldn't have been able to stop him. You don't have to have any sympathy for her, or even to think he ought to meet his legal obligations to pay child support, to acknowledge this. Her DP is responsible for ending the relationship, moving away, ignoring the children and not paying anything for them. Not her.

LittlePeaPod Sat 08-Jun-13 08:56:52

Cunderella you need to read my note again... I think all men should meet their legal obligations and pay up. I have no sympathy for women that lie and fall pregnant through deceitful actions.... Which this situation boils down to..

CarpeVinum Sat 08-Jun-13 08:57:36

I do wonder how many "accidents" are really accidents

Maybe some countries are just very accident prone. Amazingly in some countries contraception appears to be far more reliable.

----> points to Italy's very low birth rate.

Talking to my friends there isn't much "belt and braces" going on. But they can't afford more than one child, two tops (no comparable welfare state, no child tax credits, child allowance, housing benefit etc.) in case things go wrong in the future (job loss, ill health, unforseen maritial breakdown) and they will be needing help from family to plug the needs/resources gap. And so..they tend to manage to have just the one (or two tops) that they planned on being feasable in both good times and bad.

LittlePeaPod Sat 08-Jun-13 09:00:19

Maybe some countries are just very accident prone. Amazingly in some countries contraception appears to be far more reliable.

So true.

Satnightdropout Sat 08-Jun-13 09:10:23

Chunderella, reread my post, that's what I said. I have little sympathy for my partner as he shouldn't have even been sleeping with her if they'd arranged a divorce and he's also capable of using something. Was illustrating how it affects the child if they weren't planned or at least a "happy surprise" .

LadyFlumpalot Sat 08-Jun-13 09:15:17

Oh crumbs OP, please don't do as your friend suggests. DS was an accident, ok, we were careless with contraception, but he was still unplanned. I was delighted and terrified in equal measure when I found out. DH was devastated, demanded I have an abortion and reverted to a sulky teenager when I refused.

Luckily he is a very lovely man who understood that he had his own responsibility in creating DS and very quickly came round to the idea and who is now a loving father. However, it could have gone the other way, and probably would have if he had suspicions it was deliberate.

By all means tell your DH that you would like to start TTC and that you are coming off whatever contraception you use. He can then make the choice what he wants to do - abstain, condoms, etc.

Enfyshedd Sat 08-Jun-13 09:16:13

Do not do the accident thing! I'm convinced that my cousin's now XW did this considering that she got pregnant 4 times (lost one pregnancy) while using different contraceptive methods each time - the XW is a nasty, controlling & vindictive cow (banned him from seeing members of his family, held a knife to his throat during an argument in front of their toddler son on at least one occasion, drove my cousin to attempt suicide), so I really wouldn't put it past her. My cousin ended up having a vasectomy in the end.

Whatalotofpiffle Sat 08-Jun-13 09:18:16

That's so selfish. I don't think I could live with the lie and would end up confessing anyway!

CloudsAndTrees Sat 08-Jun-13 09:21:46

LittlePea, I think in the situation you describe the woman is almost entirely to blame for the situation she is in. I don't really understand why people are so keen to remove that blame from someone who deliberately and manipulatively lied to get what she wanted.

While I appreciate that the man could have removed the risk of pregnancy entirely by abstaining, it's really not that much to ask that someone you are having sex with is telling you the truth about whether they have a coil fitted or not. He had sex thinking there was a very tiny risk of pregnancy, when actually it was a very big risk. We take calculated risks all the time. I don't think you can blame someone for taking a risk when they can't possibly have any idea how big a risk they are taking because of someone else's deception and lies.

The fact that the man didn't step up and at least provide the pitiful amount the CSA would ask of him is bad, but that 'crime' is nowhere near as bad as hers.

I'm not going to lie. I've thought about it. I've even gone as far as not taking my pill. But then laid in bed feeling very guilty, and got up and taken it. Never lasted more than about an hour without feeling a huge amount of guilt!

But I would NEVER do it. Deciding on a baby is a partnership decision, if he says he's not ready for another 6 months, that's fine. But once it gets to 6 months, I'm coming off the pill (telling him obviously!). That was the choice and compromise that we made.

TiggyD Sat 08-Jun-13 09:28:51

"^Men who don't want 'accidents' need to abstain, insist on condoms + another method and be confident they're using them correctly or have a vasectomy.^"

Accidents happen, but we're talking about 'accidents'. The above quote is saying that if they don't won't an 'accident' they should assume their partner is a liar. It's an absolute red flag. Lying to have his child against his wishes is an immediate "Leave The Bastard" situation.

IfNotNowThenWhen Sat 08-Jun-13 09:34:57

I agree with Northern, and AThing.
If a man really doesn't want a child, then he needs to wear a condom, or get a vasectomy.
Women don't get pregnant on their own, and even if a woman has a child that the man doesn't want her to have, it's still his child and he needs to support it.
I actually think this issue is more shades of grey than people want to think.
I think it is often quite hard for some men to say "yes, now, lets make a baby". I don't know many who have been that unequivocal.
However, they will take contraceptive risks, and when a baby does "accidentally" come along, they are "shocked" but pleased.
What I am saying is that I think men do this too. No, it's not the most sensible thing in the world, but it seems like sometimes people need to almost stumble into parenthood, and find the planning and decision making really scary.

I would say that the vast majority of men I know became fathers (in their relationships) without much discussion or planning-or no overt planning anyway.
Also, you can both agree to children, and your partner can still cheat on you while you are pregnant, leave you, pay no child support etc.
Anything can happen.

I am not saying I would do what your friend suggested OP, but it doesn't make me clutch my pearls in horror, especially because my best friend is facing an un chosen childfree future, because her partner can't make his mind up, and that seems far crueller to me.

OddSockMonster Sat 08-Jun-13 09:35:21

I know of two couples where the woman tried to trap the man by "accidentally" falling pregnant (deliberately coming off contraception without telling the man).

Both couples split. In both cases, the dad is now the main carer and the children are very much loved.

AThingInYourLife Sat 08-Jun-13 09:43:36

"The above quote is saying that if they don't won't an 'accident' they should assume their partner is a liar."

I'm not sure that it is.

If you definitely don't want children at the moment, you need to take responsibility for your own fertility.

Leaving contraception up to someone else, particularly a someone else who would like to have a baby, seems kind of crazy to me.

I trust DH not to lie to me.

But I wouldn't trust anyone other than myself to take responsibility for my fertility.

Not because they would lie (although they might) but because I need to know that the sex I'm having is as safe as possible.

I agree that it is not right to lie about contraception.

But I find it completely bizarre that a man who definitely doesn't want to become a father will leave it up to someone else to make sure it doesn't happen.

Chunderella Sat 08-Jun-13 09:44:54

Littlepeapod it's you that needs to read my post. Whether you sympathise or think the father should pay has nothing to do with whether you think the mother is responsible for the situation. You can think the mother's behaviour was disgusting and still recognise that she didn't choose for the father to piss off. Cloudsandtrees who do you think is trying to remove blame from the mother in this situation?

Satnight glad to hear it.

CarpeVinum Sat 08-Jun-13 09:47:34

because her partner can't make his mind up, and that seems far crueller to me.

She doesn't have to be a passive "victim" in this. It's 2013. As women we have a greater range of choices these days. We don't have to sit around and wait to see if somebody will deign to give us what we want. We can chose to reject relationships that fail to tick the must have boxes. If he can't make up his mind she still gets to make up her mind. If she wants children in her future she can chose not to be with somebody who is uncertain that they want the same thing.

It isn't cruel to say you are unsure if you want children or not if that is how you feel. It's an honest peice of information that your firend is privy to. It is up to her to decide if it is a deal breaker or not.

If somebody wants children presumably they also want them to have a secure, stable future. Having a none too willing parent who is unsure he even wants them in his life raises the odds of stability having a sledgehammer chucked at it down the line. Wanting children comes with the responsibility also of choosing a solid context for them to born into as well. It's not just about "feeling", it requires THINKING too.

Or at least, it ought to.

TiggyD Sat 08-Jun-13 09:50:45

In this thread an accident is an accident. An 'accident' is when somebody does something on purpose and lies about it.

LittlePeaPod Sat 08-Jun-13 09:51:23

ifnotnow I disagree with the point that most men become fathers accidentally... In my group of close friend (8 couples) all if us fell pregnant falling a joint decision between our partners. All our partners had agreed and were exciting to start trying for a baby. None of the babies were accidents or a surprise. I understand this can happen though. Some of my friends have two and three DC. I am a first time mum to be. I also disagree with the whole vacasetomy argument. So a man should end any possibility of ever having a child in case the women his with at the time decides to lie and trap him? confused. Maybe he just isn't ready or maybe he doesn't want a child with that person. I waited till 37 before falling pregnant because I wasn't ready for a child before that. So had I been a man I should have taken my choice of having a child away before? That doesn't stack up. It's a joint discussion and the risk becomes relative to the contraception method chosen by both parties.

Leaving contraception up to someone else, particularly a someone else who would like to have a baby, seems kind of crazy to me.

A someone else who CONSTANTLY thinks about having a baby, is so broody she looks at others who are pregnant/have a new baby and is immensely jealous - yes that is a bit crazy!
But there is an element of trust, OH trusts me to take my pill, and if I did actually follow through with my thoughts of not taking it, I would be deceiving him in the biggest way possible.

I think they need to bloody hurry up with a male version of the pill. In our relationship going the 'condom or vasectomy' route wouldn't work. We both HATE condoms, and he doesn't want to have a vasectomy for another few years. So yes, the responsibility does fall to me. But, we've discussed it, and that it was works for us.

The way that I currently feel about having another baby (obsessed)....I understand why women do get pregnant by 'accident'.

LittlePeaPod Sat 08-Jun-13 09:53:13

Chunder yes I think what she consciously choose to do makes her disgusting with little moral fibre. She knew what she was doing.... It's disgusting!

LaQueen Sat 08-Jun-13 09:55:45

It's a vile, horrible, exceptionally selfish thing to do.

Even during all the many years that I longed to marry DH (and he wasn't bothered) getting pregnant 'by accident' was never, ever an option for me. Even though I knew DH would immediately do 'the honourable thing' and marry me straight away.

I just couldn't bring myself to do it - because I knew that I would just end up thinking less of myself, and that I would have massively compromised my integrity, and that our marriage would start out based on deceit, and dishonesty.

And, I knew DH well enough, to know that he would always have been suspicious, and that I would have dropped in his estimation.

Not a good start to a marriage. Although, obviously OP is already married...but the issues are the same.

LaQueen Sat 08-Jun-13 09:57:46

But to point out accidents do happen.

I got pregnant with DD2 when DD1 was only 10 weeks old shock To this day I don't know how it happened (well, apart from the obvious) because I know my cycle like the back of my hand, and I definitely shouldn't have been fertile at the time...but - doh blush

Dahlen Sat 08-Jun-13 09:59:02

I disagree that the man moving away from his twins, refusing to see them and pay for them is less 'bad' than the mother who lied to him about her contraception.

What she did was appalling. I'm not going to defend it. However, it doesn't matter how those children were conceived once they have been born. Would we have said his behaviour was acceptable if she'd been one of the few who conceived while taking the pill correctly for example?

Any adult with a modicum of personal responsibility accepts the fact that sex has the potential to result in a baby, and while you can do lots to minimise that risk, you cannot fully eradicate it. It's perfectly acceptable to be angry/upset/scared about an unplanned pregnancy, but it's not ok to walk away from the resulting child.

HappyMummyOfOne Sat 08-Jun-13 09:59:32

Awful thing to do to both the child and the other person. What sort of person lies about contraception?

How do you get pregnant by accident anyway, its not like adults don know sex can lead to pregnancy. Unplanned maybe but the odds of getting pregnant if you really dont want to and are using two methods together are very very rare. Suspect most unplanned are through lax use of contraception and that means they are definately not accidental.

Yes, accidents do happen LaQueen - but if you weren't using protection and you had sex, it's not really an accident is it? You didn't accidently have sex with no protection, I imagine? I would call that unplanned. As in, you didn't plan to have another baby.

Chunderella Sat 08-Jun-13 10:02:12

Once again Littlepeapod it doesn't matter what you think of her, and to save you from repeating it I'll make it very clear that I personally am not interested. But the point is, however badly she has behaved she is not responsible for her ex's choice to move away and have nothing to do with the children. That part is his doing and his fault, not hers.

LaQueen Sat 08-Jun-13 10:04:08

Visualise no, you're quite right. I felt confident that I wouldn't get pregnant...but that's not the same as being certain, obviously.

If we hadn't been married, then I wouldn't have been prepared to take any risk, no matter how confident I felt.

CarpeVinum Sat 08-Jun-13 10:20:34

But I find it completely bizarre that a man who definitely doesn't want to become a father will leave it up to someone else to make sure it doesn't happen.

If they ever manage to produce a pill or an implant for men I think you will see that change.

Looking at the popularity of the cap compared to "don't have to think about it when passion is occupying the brain" non barrier methods I think we can say that the preferred methods are those that offer a high degree of fetility control, but don't tend interupt the heat of the moment or limit sensation.

Once a more comparable range of options are on the table for men I think the birth rate will probably plummet.

And if it does come about you'll get a new "sneaky" issue. Men claiming a contraception free state when in fact they are making damn sure a pregnancy isn't going to happen. Which is no better than women doing the opposite. Anything that occurs on a basis of deliberately hiding the true facts from a partner or blatently lying is no good basis for a healthy, sustainable relationship.

IfNotNowThenWhen Sat 08-Jun-13 10:24:53

Yeah, my friend can "choose" carpe. She doesn't have to stay-in fact I think she should leave, BUT she is 38. Her partner vacillated for 6 years, and now it looks like he is never going to commit (with her anyway.) so, quite probably, she is fucked. For some reason, this makes me rather angry.

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 08-Jun-13 10:27:48

Its not a good move its a really very stupid one but then so is having sex without taking responsibility for yourself.

CarpeVinum Sat 08-Jun-13 10:40:16

Her partner vacillated for 6 years

As did she. She wasn't chained to him. She obviously believed he was worth the gamble of never truely being in favpur of having children. She threw the dice and by your account, it looks like she lost. But she threw the dice. She could have walked away 2,3,4 years ago. She chose not to.

I can understand disappointed. But not angry. Unless you know that he knew from the start he wpuld never want kids and chose to reframe it as "I don't know either way yet" as a device to string her along becuase he wanted to motivate her to stay ...what exactly has he done wrong, other than tell her the truth ? That he doesn't know if he wants kids and doesn't know for sure that he will in the future ?

Relationships don't come with guarentees. All any of us can do is pick the best odds we can for a happy, secure, stable, loving outcome. And in this day and age we as women have choices. Those choices come with the responsibility of living with the putcome of what we chose, rather than blaming somebody else when we take a time sensitive gamble ...and lose.

rainbowslollipops Sat 08-Jun-13 10:42:51

It's a silly idea. What happens if your DH thinks it's the wrong timing or doesn't want any? You could end up a single parent because you've not planned the baby.

LittlePeaPod Sat 08-Jun-13 10:45:01

Carp i could not have said it better. Well said.

TeapotsInJune Sat 08-Jun-13 10:46:07

There's worse things than being a single parent <shrug> I guess some people weigh it up and decide they'd rather have a child than a partner?

inadreamworld Sat 08-Jun-13 10:55:13

I can't promise I wouldn't do it if I were desperate for a baby but I agree it is dishonest and probably not the best basis on which to start a family.

However I agree with the poster who said what about the men who prevent their wives/girlfriends from getting pregnant while saying maybe one day. That is very immoral but hardly gets mentioned.

ChunkyPickle Sat 08-Jun-13 11:11:22

It's a stupid thing to do, but I can't help having this little voice in the back of my head saying that men are also responsible for contraception, and if he doesn't want a child yet he should also be doing something to manage his fertility too rather than relying on her.

I realise in a relationship this would have been discussed and perhaps they agreed she would be on hormonal birth control - but clearly the discussion is needed again

CarpeVinum Sat 08-Jun-13 11:13:00

That is very immoral but hardly gets mentioned

Unless it is being done to motivate somebody to stay under false pretences how is it immoral ?

Telling somebody the truth, that you don't want kids now, but maybe that will change in the future is communicating information. What the other partner choses to do based on that information is entirely their own choice.

We are not poor innocent victims being denied babies. We are (mainly) fully grown women who are perfectly caperble of wieghing up the odds, deciding the appropirate wieght for various priorities and choosing how long (if at all) we intend to wait and see what happens before moving on and seeking a relationship where both parties are on the same page.

Biology dictacts we have a limited time frame. This is not a secret. If you are with somebody who is not on the same page as you in terms of absolutle priorities perhaps chosing to put the book down and go back to the library in a timely fashion, rather than immagining a happy ending, is one's best bet.

I would rather have had no children than bear one into a context where by deciet I had lowered their odds of a stable, secure home where they were actively wanted by both their parents.

In this discussion there needs to be acknowledgement that there needs to be greater priority made of children's needs rather than parental wants. As overwelming as maternal/paternal desire can be, it can't be given free rein at the expence of the children who have to live with unlevel playing field issues created by parental dishonesty and lack of forethought during their conception.

SlowJinn Sat 08-Jun-13 11:30:40

Bad idea. Totally wrong.

Iamsparklyknickers Sat 08-Jun-13 11:45:22

There's a huge difference between telling your partner you've ceased all contraception as you'd like to become pregnant and if they disagree it's now their responsibility, to secretly coming off the pill or whatever and letting them believe you're still managing the contraception side of things.

Rightly or wrongly, women have the majority of options when it comes to contraception so I don't think it's particularly unreasonable for a man to presume that his partner is telling him the truth and rely on that. In a long term relationship I can't imagine how hurt I would feel if my DP carried on using condoms if I told him I was on the pill.

What a horrible, deceitful thing to do with someone you plan to build a family with. I believe it goes on a fair bit, and I think it's an awful symptom of something wrong in the relationship if you're prepared to do that.

In a couple one person can only make that decision if the other lets them, there's absolutely nothing wrong with disagreeing and refusing to organise contraception if it's not what you want - as long as everybody involved knows what's going on.

CarpeVinum Sat 08-Jun-13 11:46:06

It's a stupid thing to do, but I can't help having this little voice in the back of my head saying that men are also responsible for contraception, and if he doesn't want a child yet he should also be doing something to manage his fertility too rather than relying on her.

I am teaching my son to take an active not passive role in contraception. That if he doesn't want children he needs to know that contraception is in place and the only way he can know that it is, is if he is the one applying it in an appropirate fashion. And best case scenrio he is providing belt and braces becuase no single contraception is failsafe. I am making such a fuss about it becuase he will be going to the Uk for his higher ed, and there appears to be a vastly different mindset re the conception of children compared to here. A mindset he won't be prepared for by his peers attidudues and expectations here, so it's up to me to clarify that different cultures have different quirks and foibles that he needs to be aware of.

But this is a two way street. If men don't want to be parents then they need to take personal responsibility becuase some people lie and contraception can fail. Ditto if women do want to be parents then they need to take personal responsibility becuase some people either lie or don't have a crystal ball.

If you accept at face value it is more likely to be women, by dint of biological time constraints, who are more at risk of "don't know when or if I will ever want children" partner issues timing them out of parenthood, then it is up to them to take control of that situation and pick their priority.

A question of what do you want more, this man, (even if it means never having children, or his desire for them coming so late that he decides to go off with somebody still caperble of providing them...) OR motherhood, and leaving a realtionship which offers no firm hope of that in a timely fashion so you have enough time to find somebody suitable that is on the same page.

But yeah, finding a workaround to condone deception, that is stupid.

Becuase the people most at risk paying the price for that stratagy are the small powerless people who got no say in the matter but have any fallout as the landscape of their lives. Actively choosing the greater risk of rejection, strife, economic disadvantage and loss for your yet to be concieved children doesn't reek of a maternal investment in concept of children's needs coming before parental wants to me. And if that is the mindset from the beginning, god help the kids, becuase a wonky radar from the very onset on what consitutes priorities doesn't bode well.

Trills Sat 08-Jun-13 11:46:15

YANBU at all

Relationships are about trust.

IfNotNowThenWhen Sat 08-Jun-13 14:31:00

Unless you know that he knew from the start he would never want kids and chose to reframe it as "I don't know either way yet" as a device to string her along becuase he wanted to motivate her to stay ...

Yes ^^ this. That is exactly what I think.
Sure, it's really easy to say "well she chose to stay" but given how hard it is to find a nice guy after the age of 35 or so, I can see why she did.

CarpeVinum Sat 08-Jun-13 14:46:20

That is exactly what I think.

Well if you have good cause to believe he strung her along and lied, then I don't blame you for being angry. It is dishonest to misrepresent reality in order to get your own way with a blatent disregard of a partner's desires.

Be it pretending there is realistic hope of parenthood, or pretending contraception is in place.

LaQueen Sat 08-Jun-13 14:56:23

I agree with Carpe - you rolls the dice, and you takes your chances...

Just before my 31st birthday, and having been together nearly 10 years since meeting at university, DH finally admitted that properly settling down, getting married, buying a house, having a family with me...just wasn't really part of his short to medium term plans...if ever. Maybe sometime in the future...but possibly not.

Well, I was utterly devastated, words can't describe how I felt sad

But, I knew that I deserved better than just meekly hanging around in his life, hoping he'd come around to the idea of marrying me, and having a family.

So, I left him. It was the hardest thing I have ever done, especially as he didn't actually want me to go and kept telling me he loved me. But I packed my bags, and moved in with my Mum whilst I bought my own house.

Okay - so 2 months down the line DH realised he'd made a huge mistake, and jumped through hoops to win me back, and we got married the following year...so there was a happy ending smile

But, it was the biggest gamble of my life...and actually wasn't even really a gamble...because I didn't see that I really had a choice. Not a choice that was in anyway tenable to me, anyway.

LondonMan Sun 09-Jun-13 16:04:18

No, Little Pea, he was half involved in creating the situation. He couldve taken responsibility for his own fertility if he didn't want children, as could she.

I think her probability of conception was 100-fold higher if not on the pill, therefore a fair apportionment of the "blame" for the children existing is 99% her, 1% him, not 50-50 as you suggest.

LittlePeaPod Sun 09-Jun-13 17:08:48

londonman. I never said it was 50 50...

So they agree as a couple that their method of contraception is for her to use a coil, she tells him she doesn't like condoms and the coil is safe, he tells her over 3/4 years he isn't ready for kids and doesn't want to ttc, she sneaks off to the doctor to get the coil removed behind his back, without his knowdge and continues to lie to him that she still has the coil in...... And you say that's 50% his fault.. Come on that's ridiculous.. They made a decision as a couple, he trusted her and she deceived him. It's not his fault, its hers and she is living with the consequences if her deceitful and immoral actions...

LittlePeaPod Sun 09-Jun-13 17:09:39

Lndonman sorry I miss read your comment.... Ha ha wink

GoshAnneGorilla Mon 10-Jun-13 03:04:42

I think men get away with far too much indecisiveness and women do end up pissing their fertile years away, particularly as we live in a society which encourages women to swallow crap in relationships.

Also, I'm of the glee with which people on here recount tales of men who felt "trapped" into fatherhood and so proceed to be utter shitheels to their children. No excuses should be made for these men, especially not by women.

Sex is designed to make babies, if they don't want babies, they can make the choice to leave, have vasectomy, abstain from sex, or choose someone who has decided to be child free or has been sterilized.

I think a lot of the being sneaky about contraception is because women don't feel secure enough to say, "I want a child, if you don't want one have a vasectomy".

GoshAnneGorilla Mon 10-Jun-13 03:05:40

*puzzled by the glee

ComposHat Mon 10-Jun-13 10:37:16

In a few years she'll be moaning about her partner not being interested in a child he never wanted.

FasterStronger Mon 10-Jun-13 12:00:02

what laqueen did is the right thing to do:

she knew what she wanted.

LaQueen Mon 10-Jun-13 13:44:35

Er...what did I do confused

cantdecideonanewname Mon 10-Jun-13 14:38:39

We were going to ttc a second DC a few years ago then DH changed his mind. I was talking to an acquaintance who said I should just get 'accidentally' pregnant, I was very surprised by her attitude and said that I wanted any children we had to be wanted by both of us, she said that she thinks it's the woman's decision not the man's.

A few years later DH has changed his mind and we're now expecting a much wanted by both of us second DC.

niceguy2 Mon 10-Jun-13 14:40:38

My friend's ex did this. Took herself off the pill, didn't tell him until she was pregnant.

He loves his son but never forgave his ex for that betrayal. The relationship didn't last.

FasterStronger Mon 10-Jun-13 14:48:07

this:

LaQueen Sat 08-Jun-13 14:56:23

....Just before my 31st birthday, and having been together nearly 10 years since meeting at university, DH finally admitted that properly settling down, getting married, buying a house, having a family with me...just wasn't really part of his short to medium term plans...if ever. Maybe sometime in the future...but possibly not.

Well, I was utterly devastated, words can't describe how I felt sad

But, I knew that I deserved better than just meekly hanging around in his life, hoping he'd come around to the idea of marrying me, and having a family.

So, I left him. It was the hardest thing I have ever done, especially as he didn't actually want me to go and kept telling me he loved me. But I packed my bags, and moved in with my Mum whilst I bought my own house.

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

LondonMan Mon 10-Jun-13 14:52:01

Sex is designed to make babies, if they don't want babies, they can make the choice to leave, have vasectomy, abstain from sex, or choose someone who has decided to be child free or has been sterilized.

Someone who says she is using contraception is someone who has "chosen to be child free", for the time being at least.

I think a lot of the being sneaky about contraception is because women don't feel secure enough to say, "I want a child, if you don't want one have a vasectomy".

If a man doesn't feel "secure" enough to say "I don't want a child" then I assume you'd have no problem with him having a secret vasectomy? After all it's only "sneaky" to confer/withold parenthood by lying.

GoshAnneGorilla Mon 10-Jun-13 15:12:09

London man Child free is not wanting children at all.

For the rest, re-read my first paragraph.

Berts Mon 10-Jun-13 15:16:40

Wouldn't do it myself, but my DH has mentioned that a lot of guys he knows, who were in relationships for 10-15 years, heading into mid/late-thirties, had partners who 'accidentally' conceived.

I'm not advocating it, but if you've been with a woman for 10-15 years, she's getting to the end of her fertile years and you're still telling her you want kids 'some day' but you're 'not ready yet', I can't say I'd really blame her for having an 'accident'...

Also wouldn't blame them for dumping the guy, but that's another debate grin

ComposHat Mon 10-Jun-13 15:26:01

Women fought long and hard to control their own reproductive cycle and to force themselves off a continuial cycle of unwanted pregnancies. It is depressing that a small minority seem to want to take that right away from their partners.

CarpeVinum Mon 10-Jun-13 16:56:10

ComposHat

Hear hear.

When there is a non barrier method for men I doubt the small minority will be quite so willing to ignore the blantant dishonesty and abuse of trust when a man is falsely claiming to be taking his pill, while he deliberatly creates a little "accident" for his partner.

You are supposed to be able to trust the one you love who says they love you back.

But if they are willing to ride roughshod over your choices by breaking that trust, then that flavour of love is pretty bitter and sour indeed.

I'd rather be alone than "loved" like that.

LittlePeaPod Mon 10-Jun-13 16:56:15

* I think men get away with far too much indecisiveness and women do end up pissing their fertile years away, particularly as we live in a society which encourages women to swallow crap in relationships.* 

Those women that end up pissng their fertile years away choose to do so.  They have every right to leave if they want children and the man is not decisive....  It's their choice and therefore they have to live with the consequences if they miss the boat..  With regards the "society which encourages women to swallow crap in relationships", I can't think of any woman I know that lives their lives like that...  You make it sound like we are still living in the 1940s/50s.....

Sex is designed to make babies, if they don't want babies, they can make the choice to leave, have vasectomy, abstain from sex, or choose someone who has decided to be child free or has been sterilized.

First sex is enjoyable its not just about making babies sounds a bit church sermon  It's also about intimacy and a whole load of other stuff..  If a woman wants a child then they need to find someone that wants the same thing rather than result to wilfully deceiving their partner... That kind of behaviour  just gives all women a bad reputation....

specialsubject Mon 10-Jun-13 17:06:31

if both parties know that contraception is not being used, fine. If there is then an unplanned pregnancy both are responsible.

if the man thinks contraception is being used and the woman has stopped doing so without telling him, not fine. Deceitful, juvenile, treacherous and disgusting. That's not misogyny, it is fact.

and of course it would be the same if the man had poked holes in the condom or lied about having a vasectomy.

as for your silly little pal - the worst that could happen is that a child is born that is unwanted by its father and the relationship breaks up because the man can no longer trust the woman.

GoshAnneGorilla Mon 10-Jun-13 17:24:06

Little - penis in vagina sexual intercourse is the only sexual act that can result in pregnancy. There are plenty of sexual acts/ forms of intimacy which don't.

If a man is having penetrative vaginal intercourse, there is nearly always a chance of pregnancy, even vasectomies have a failure rate. Yet it still seems that there are men out there who are utterly stunned by this fact.

As for men bring indecisive, I would argue that men are allowed to get away with acting like man children more than ever before, hence you have the spectre of men well into their 30's, who still "aren't sure" if they want children.

Also, considering you were up thread gloating about your "friend" and her complete fuckweasel of an ex, cheering on a deadbeat dad means you're not really one to talk about how great women have it now.

LittlePeaPod Mon 10-Jun-13 19:22:17

Gosh. You need to read my note up thread again.. 1) you will find she is not my friend but a colleague I work with and she was the one gloating about her deception which landed her in the position she's in. I think her behaviour is disgusting and she should be ashamed of herself. BTW, she knows what I think of her behaviour. She asked my opinion and I told her what I thought.. 2) you seem to have very old fashioned views on sex and women in relationships. 3) not sure what kind of men you have associated with in your life but clearly they have left you will a distorted view on men. There are equally the same number of women that have chosen not to have children or to wait (careers etc.) to have children later in life (me, first pregnancy at 37).

As for men been indecisive who's business is it but the individual and their partner whether someone wants a child. You clearly think women should lie and trap men into having children and that their lies should simply be accepted by the men.. if you lie, decieve, cheat then you should be prepared to pay the consequences.. you do the crime you do the time..

Dahlen Mon 10-Jun-13 19:52:31

I don't think there can ever be any justification for tricking someone into having a baby. Simply because of the effect on the unborn child - who is potentially disadvantaged before he or she is even in the world.

Just as not wanting to be a father is not an excuse for abandoning a child, nor should wanting another a child be an excuse for conceiving a child against a partner's wishes.

Whatever goes on and whichever partner 'loses' though, the child should not be made to suffer and should expect the best from both parents.

FasterStronger Mon 10-Jun-13 20:33:58

these men don't want children but don't want vasectomies.

why?

CarpeVinum Mon 10-Jun-13 20:54:22

why?

Possibly for the same reason I didn't get sterlized when I was pretty sure I didn't want children. I left room for a change of heart further on down the line. Which happened.

And I think that is why the majority of childless (so far) people don't choose a permanant solution. Becuase when most of them say "I don't know if I will change my mind in the future" ...they are telling the truth.

I don't get on with hormonal contraception. And I don't fancy the coil, too invasive for my prefernces. So we have always used condoms. By the logic being put forward here DH would have been within his rights to poke holes in it behind my back and overidden my prefernce to wait until I wanted kids. Becuase it's all my own fault really for not have had my tubes tied and leaving room for a change of heart as I got older.

ShadowStorm Mon 10-Jun-13 23:05:06

Agree with Carpe

A man (or woman) might definitely not want children right now, but might be reluctant to do something as final as get sterilised in case they change their mind later.

Incidentally, I know a woman who got sterilised at 22 because she was adamant that she didn't want children and she never would, and the pill, coil, etc didn't agree with her. 10 years down the line, she's changed her mind. And her sterilisation can't be reversed, so her only option now is trying to scrape together the money for IVF.

GoshAnneGorilla Mon 10-Jun-13 23:22:04

Little - You will not find me saying it is ok for a woman to alter her contraception behind her partner's back. I have not said that, no one here has said that.

However, men and women have different fertility schedules. Hence, a man waiting to be ready to have a child has decades on a woman in a similar situation, yet many men do not seem to realise this.

Therefore, I have no problem with a woman informing her partner: I would like children and so I no longer wish to use contraception. He is in full knowledge of the facts, if this is a dealbreaker he can leave - both parties know where they stand.

Also, I don't how my stating that: men have a responsibility to any child arising from a sexual relationship they have had, regardless of their feelings around the conception of that child, is any way having a distorted view of men.

On the contrary, it shows that I believe men should behave in a decent manner and fulfil their responsibilities.

Technotropic Mon 10-Jun-13 23:40:39

hence you have the spectre of men well into their 30's, who still "aren't sure" if they want children.

Do you not think that the steady decrease in job security, stratospheric rises in house prices and huge uncertainty has anything to do with some men feeling uneasy to commit to such a huge undertaking?

Hence, a man waiting to be ready to have a child has decades on a woman in a similar situation, yet many men do not seem to realise this.

I think you do men a disservice. I'm sure there are many men that fully understand a woman's biological clock and your suggestion to the contrary is wide of the mark IMHO. Men aren't dilly dallying in spite of women. There may be some that are genuinely petrified with the prospect of becoming a parent but 'getting away with being indecisive' seriously?

LittlePeaPod Tue 11-Jun-13 07:42:10

Gosh - However, men and women have different fertility schedules. Hence, a man waiting to be ready to have a child has decades on a woman in a similar situation, yet many men do not seem to realise this.

You really give men little ability to have intellectual thought on the subject. Men and women are fully aware of the difference in fertility "schedules". Men don't live in a vacuum! When people say I am not ready for a child, then that's exactly what they mean. Their not saying I am not ready for a child unless you clock nearly runs out.

Therefore, I have no problem with a woman informing her partner: I would like children and so I no longer wish to use contraception. He is in full knowledge of the facts, if this is a dealbreaker he can leave - both parties know where they stand.

I don't understand why any woman would want to bring a child into the world under circumstances were one parent doesn't want to have the child. Surely this only breeds contempt and bitterness by the partner tricked or forced into having a child? It smacks of desperation. If a woman or man wants a child and their partner doesn't or isn't ready then they should go and find someone with similar priorities, not force a life choice on someone they are not ready for.

With regards my comment on your distorted view of men this came from your comments which seem to indicate that we have all these poor, helpless, powerless women pissing their fertility away because of the thoughtless, indecisive men acting like children even when the men clearly communicate to their partners that they are not ready for children. Men aren't stupid or selfish, they make decision that suit their choices in the same way women do. If someone tells me they don't want to do something or they are not ready to do something then I will respect their choice. If this life choice is incompatible with my life choice then I have the power to either leave that situation or accept their decision and stay. But if I do then I have to accept that my choice has consequences and under these circumstances that is a life without the possibility of ever having a child. This is what acting in a decent respectful manner and taking ownership of your responsibility means. No on has a responsibility to give anyone a child if they don't want to..

FasterStronger Tue 11-Jun-13 07:54:19

CarpeVinum - I understand that part. but we are talking about men who aren't taking responsibility for contraception. so:

(and the following is obviously not universal and most men aren't like this)

they don't want (to be responsible) for children
they don't want to be responsible for using contraception
they don't want to make a permanent decision to not have children

if a child results from unprotected sex:

they can generally rely on the mother providing care
they dont have to pay for the child as the CSA is crap
and according to yesterdays news, hundreds of thousands of them don't even see their DC twice per year.

society seems to enable some men to live irresponsible lives, so its no wonder why don't take responsibility for contraception.

there are no consequences for them if a child results.

TheDoctrineOfAllan Tue 11-Jun-13 08:56:00

If you love someone but you know you want something so fundamentally different from them (marriage, children, living overseas etc), why would you try and get them to stay when they are likely to be unhappy?

(thinking of men who don't want children staying with women who do, but it goes for both sides and for some other key "life decisions" too)

GoshAnneGorilla Tue 11-Jun-13 09:07:17

Faster Stronger - Exactly!

samandi Tue 11-Jun-13 09:50:09

Of course there are loads of women doing it. There are also loads of men deciding they don't want to live with lying partners and don't want to support kids they didn't want in the first place.

Then women wonder why they're left to look after the kid alone confused

GoshAnneGorilla Tue 11-Jun-13 17:07:51

Samandi - that's not how it works. If the child is biologically his, he has a duty to support it, no it's or buts. The only legal exception of course, is if the mother obtained sperm via a fertility clinic.

And people wonder why this country is full of deadbeat dads. If you made a child, you should provide for and raise the child. To say anything else gives men carte blanche to abandon their children.

FasterStronger Wed 12-Jun-13 07:27:07

samadi - but don't you think there are a lot of people having sex without conctraception....so people who don't want children, create them anyway?

samandi Wed 12-Jun-13 09:44:38

Samandi - that's not how it works. If the child is biologically his, he has a duty to support it, no it's or buts. The only legal exception of course, is if the mother obtained sperm via a fertility clinic.

A legal duty. Personally I don't think men have a moral duty at all to support children they didn't want after being lied to in that way.

but don't you think there are a lot of people having sex without conctraception....so people who don't want children, create them anyway?

Yes, of course confused

This is a completely different scenario. If you are both having sex without taking precautions then you are equally at fault.

If in a long term relationship a woman on the pill stops taking it without conferring with her partner, then she is the one at fault.

CarpeVinum Wed 12-Jun-13 09:53:16

there are no consequences for them if a child results

As we are discussing elsewhere...yes.

But I see that as yet another reason NOT to go for "behind back cessastion of birth control" rather than an argument to support it.

Becuase of the higher risk for the child to be abandoned emotionally, phycially and economically.

samandi Wed 12-Jun-13 11:18:17

Becuase of the higher risk for the child to be abandoned emotionally, phycially and economically.

That is an excellent point. Unfortunately women who do this don't seem to be thinking of the kid, only about themselves and their desire for a child.

It's all extremely selfish.

GoshAnneGorilla Wed 12-Jun-13 15:36:27

Samandi - so you would be happy for the child to suffer in order to "punish" the woman? That's some rather twisted morality.

samandi Wed 12-Jun-13 19:33:41

Samandi - so you would be happy for the child to suffer in order to "punish" the woman? That's some rather twisted morality.

WTAF?

It is the WOMAN in this scenario who is punishing the child.

You cannot force a man to take an interest in a child he has made clear - beforehand - that he doesn't want.

I don't know how all these things work financially, but IMO it should be up to the woman to foot the bill (failing that, I suppose, the taxpayer).

lottieandmia Wed 12-Jun-13 19:41:34

On the face of things this might seem wrong. But generally, if one person wants to have children and the other doesn't and is adamant they don't want a child the relationship will eventually break down - it's a deal breaker.

The cases I have known where this happened (the couple split) - the woman did not want a child and the man did. Obviously, the woman is more in control of her fertility (except in the case of accidents). But where it was the other way round and the woman eventually conceived, in many cases they stayed together.

So a woman who gets pregnant 'accidentally on purpose' may be wrong technically and is taking a huge risk. But it may just save the relationship in the long term iyswim.

lottieandmia Wed 12-Jun-13 19:43:48

'I don't know how all these things work financially, but IMO it should be up to the woman to foot the bill (failing that, I suppose, the taxpayer).'

No, I do not agree with this at all. If the woman gets pregnant the man is just as responsible for the outcome. He knows how babies are made and if he wants to be sure one is not made he should abstain from sex or use a condom.

samandi Wed 12-Jun-13 20:37:25

So a woman who gets pregnant 'accidentally on purpose' may be wrong technically and is taking a huge risk. But it may just save the relationship in the long term iyswim.

That's a hell of a risk to be taking with three lives, two of them who don't have a choice.

It's not the be all and end all for a relationship to survive. Sometimes it's better that they don't.

If the woman gets pregnant the man is just as responsible for the outcome. He knows how babies are made and if he wants to be sure one is not made he should abstain from sex or use a condom.

That is utterly ridiculous. The man is NOT just as responsible as the woman if she stops taking the pill without telling him. In this case SHE is completely responsible. Why is that so hard for some people to get their heads round? If men in long term relationships have to wear condoms to protect against pregnancy then WTF is the point in taking the pill???

Yes, he knows how babies are made. Presumably he also knows what the contraceptive pill is for.

LittlePeaPod Wed 12-Jun-13 20:50:25

I don't know how all these things work financially, but IMO it should be up to the woman to foot the bill (failing that, I suppose, the taxpayer).

If a woman consciously deceives a partner that has made it clear they do not want a child and purposely gets pregnant by lying about been on contraception then yes the woman should foot the bill.

* But I see that as yet another reason NOT to go for "behind back cessastion of birth control" rather than an argument to support it. Because of the higher risk for the child to be abandoned emotionally, phycially and economically.*

Again well said... It's the kids that suffer and women should consider these consequences before lying and getting pregnant under false pretence, and then crying "dead beat dad" after the fact.

CarpeVinum Wed 12-Jun-13 21:18:00

So a woman who gets pregnant 'accidentally on purpose' may be wrong technically and is taking a huge risk. But it may just save the relationship in the long term iyswim.

What kind of person uses a child as a chip in a game of roulette ?

The sort who will end up using them as a pawn if the gamble doesn't pay off perhaps ?

Children's needs before parental wants.

And children need parents to be risk adverse regarding their conception so they don't end up at the wrong end of an unlevel playing field from the onset.

What they don't need is parents thinking "I want one now regardless of all the additional risk factors that the child will end up emotionally, phycially or econonically disadvantaged by a relationship collapse, so come on baby, come be a sticking plaster and see if you can make this realtionship a bit tackier than it already is"

It's a person. A small person admittedly, but a person. Not an elastoplast who can go in the bin "no harm done" if the glue isn't sticky enough.

Children shouldn't be tasked with saving relationships. That is supposed to be the adults' job.

CarpeVinum Wed 12-Jun-13 21:27:42

Fathers should support any children they produce. Even when they were dishonestly and deliberatly lured into a false sense of security regarding contraception being used appropriatly.

Cos it's not the kid's fault. Of the three people involved, they are the only one who had absolutly no choices at all.

And with a mother who would do something so flagrantly dishonest and risky in terms of outcomes of a child, the poor kid is going to need every bit of help it can get. Becuase the primary caregiver has already proved her priorities have something of a "mum's wants, before kid's needs" leaning.

Dahlen Wed 12-Jun-13 21:36:42

I can't believe some of the comments on here.

If a woman gets pregnant by deliberately deceiving the man, she is a manipulative, selfish fool. There is no justifcation for it.

HOWEVER, regardless of what she's done, once a child is the result of that deception the child (NOT the mother) deserves the support of BOTH its parents.

If it's your genetic material, it's your responsibility. Unless you can 100% say your sperm will never meet an egg because of your actions you are responsible.

TheDoctrineOfAllan Wed 12-Jun-13 23:32:31

If "she got pregnant by deceiving me" was allowed as a reason to not pay child support, do we think that there would be a significantly higher proportion of women who actually did it, or of men who claimed that's what they did?

PosyNarker Wed 12-Jun-13 23:55:01

I think it's wrong to have an accidental on purpose pregancy and can really put the relationship on the wrong footing.

Having said that, I think there's a moral difference between:
- person has made it clear he doesn't want children / another child at all
- person is ambivalent so not committed to actually trying
- no-one has made any firm comments of children or contraceptives (irresponsible IMO, but no-one is tricking anyone)

I'm in camp 2 and am also ambivalent. We've had the discussion about what happens if and he has accepted the risks (I am on the mini-pill). To me, if contraception isn't pretty close to 100% / two types used, then a couple ought to have the discussion about what would happen in the event of pregnancy.

I also do think there's a moral difference to be frank between a man sabotaging contraception to get a woman pregnant and a woman doing likewise. It must surely be recognised that the pregnancy itself carries risks for a woman that isn't there for a man.

samandi Thu 13-Jun-13 08:03:30

If "she got pregnant by deceiving me" was allowed as a reason to not pay child support, do we think that there would be a significantly higher proportion of women who actually did it, or of men who claimed that's what they did?

Well that is a good point and it would be extremely difficult to sort out all the mess. Perhaps we should have a system where women have to be administered the pill like children, just because a few of us are so completely unable to functional as sensible adults.

Dahlen Thu 13-Jun-13 08:18:53

The minute you decide that using contraception is a "get out of jail card" for avoiding the responsibility of any consequences (i.e. a child) all you do is encourage people to make excuses. Contraception is a minimiser and it is not 100-per-cent foolproof. And since women are the only ones who end up pregnant and therefore always have to deal with the consequences (whether that's choosing abortion or continuing with the pregnancy - both of which carry risk to physical and mental health), saying "but I used contraception so therefore it's not my fault; she must have tricked me" simply allows men to walk away with no backward glance - as indeed many do already and have done throughout history.

Perhaps we should have a system where no one has sex unless they want to make a baby with someone.

Since that's unlikely in this world let's just have a situation where we encourage the sensible use of contraception and make parents step up to look after the needs of their child regardless of the circumstances of their conception.

FasterStronger Thu 13-Jun-13 08:21:20

We seem to be talking about women being deceptive, but what about the menz? grin

Don't some, probably as many women who are lie, say what they want, to get what they want? 'if you get pregnant, I'll support you, whatever you decide etc. to get a shag?

Isn't the point people can lie and we should all use contraception that we control until both want sex to result in a child?

TheDoctrineOfAllan Thu 13-Jun-13 08:42:02

Shall we also tape oven gloves to everyone's hands because some people are pickpockets?

lottieandmia Thu 13-Jun-13 10:22:39

I am not saying that it's right but I think that is the thinking behind it for some people - it's a very risky and manipulative strategy I agree. I still stand by my point that it takes 2 people to make a baby and the responsibility of both parents.

For a couple in a LTR it should be easy for the man to keep track of whether his DW/DP is actually taking the pill or not. If there's room for doubt he can use a condom.

CarpeVinum Thu 13-Jun-13 10:47:11

Isn't the point people can lie and we should all use contraception that we control until both want sex to result in a child

Abso.fucking.lutley.

Even from the perspective of the small but real chance of contraceptive failue, belt and braces ought to be viewed as the norm rather than "extreme measures".

I think that will happen to a greater degree when a non barrier method is available for men too. Say an implant, stick it in and bob's not your daddy for X number of years. (bar small statistical failure)

So female protected, male protected, and condoms are the forcefield against statistically rare calamity ...but mainly for protection against STDs.

In the meantime, I will keep banging on to DS about the only contraceptive he can be sure is being used appropriatly is the one he is applying to himself and using it exactly as directed.

And that if the worst happens, and a baby is made, it is not about him and it is not about her, it is about the child made who wasn't in that bedroom making any choices, and the smallest person had to be the over riding priority of all concerned.

Words cannot express how deeply disappointed I would be in him if he turned his back emotionally, phycically or economically on a child he created, whatever the circumstsnces of its conception.

And if he wouldn't be there in those terms, me and DH would be. Using his potential inheritance to make it happen.

TheDoctrineOfAllan Thu 13-Jun-13 11:14:48

Lottie, I keep my pill in my purse and take it when convenient. I could easily pop out one a day and bin rather than take, DH would not know.

LittlePeaPod Thu 13-Jun-13 12:35:06

For a couple in a LTR it should be easy for the man to keep track of whether his DW/DP is actually taking the pill or not. If there's room for doubt he can use a condom.

Its so easy for women not to take their pill or to get their coil\implant or what ever removed and their partner would never know. This is about trust and the OPs original question was relating to women tricking their partners into having children. My DF and I discussed contraception and agreed on the method we felt most confortable with. He trusted me! When we choose to start ttc we discussed it and he knew when it would happen. He trusted me in the same way I trust him not to sleep with someone else. If you are in a loving and trusting relationship then there would not be any room for doubt that the woman was taking her pill or whatever.

I still for the life of me can not and will never be able to understand why any woman would want to have a child with a partner that wasn't sure, wasn't ready or didn't want any. Its a life critical decision and I just don't get it.

lottieandmia Thu 13-Jun-13 12:39:25

But that's a risk you take in any relationship isn't it? We all have to trust that our partner is not going to lie to us about a number of issues.

lottieandmia Thu 13-Jun-13 12:41:39

'If you are in a loving and trusting relationship then there would not be any room for doubt that the woman was taking her pill or whatever.'

Hopefully, yes. It seems to me that there are people who think it's ok to get pregnant accidentally on purpose though. My view is that rather than being deliberately cruel to their partner they are misguided as to the problems that could arise.

OddSockMonster Thu 13-Jun-13 12:58:09

I think you're right about the misguided bit lottie, but also the two women I know who did that were very misguided in thinking that an accidentally in purpose pregnancy would fix their doomed relationships.

LittlePeaPod Thu 13-Jun-13 13:16:48

lottie Not at all.. They are not misguided, they are lying and deceitful and they know it. Trusting your long term partner is not a risk. Its exactly that, trust! If one of them break that trust (eg not take the pill) then they were never in a trusting relationship and the decieved partner has every right to leave and the lier has to take ownership and responsibilty of their actions. And in some extreme cases that's the mother become a single parent.

And how do you explain that to a child. Where is daddy? He left because he never wanted you and I lied to him! Oh maybe you lie and make the father out as the bad person. I don't get why any woman would risk putting themselves in that position.

samandi Thu 13-Jun-13 13:47:32

Hopefully, yes. It seems to me that there are people who think it's ok to get pregnant accidentally on purpose though. My view is that rather than being deliberately cruel to their partner they are misguided as to the problems that could arise.

LMAO! "Misguided"??!!

LittlePeaPod - absolutely.

CarpeVinum Thu 13-Jun-13 15:37:05

misguided

Minmising grave errors into mistakes puts so many children at the sharp end.

It is not kinder, or "better personhood" or "more evolved" to collude via lexis with a mindset that places children at a greater risk of disadvantage.

Not unless you believe the only people who matter are the large sized ones.

mayorquimby Thu 13-Jun-13 16:17:59

"For a couple in a LTR it should be easy for the man to keep track of whether his DW/DP is actually taking the pill or not. If there's room for doubt he can use a condom."

My gf was on the pill for years (I assume, this thread suggests maybe not) and I would not have had a breeze if she just decided not to take it?
How would I? She took it on her own schedule and had complete control over it.

ShadowStorm Thu 13-Jun-13 23:07:38

For a couple in a LTR it should be easy for the man to keep track of whether his DW/DP is actually taking the pill or not. If there's room for doubt he can use a condom.

Unless the man is insisting on watching his DW/DP take her daily pill, how can he easily keep track of this? Checking the pill packet doesn't prove anything, because a DW/DP intent on tricking her partner into pregnancy could easily throw the pill away if she wasn't being watched.

And I don't think it's normal behaviour for a man to insist on this level of surveillance. I think it's a lot more normal in a long term relationship for partners to be truthful about contraception, and to be able to trust each other to be truthful about contraception use.

Yonirubbishnamesleft Thu 13-Jun-13 23:19:15

I haven't read the entire thread, sorry. I just though I'd give the view from the other side.

I couldn't have the pill for a while due to complications with food poisoning and problems with keeping things down for months.

Anyway, we relied on just condoms for four months, and then got pregnant which I'd been paranoid about. Looking back...stupid.

Eventually it came out that it was deliberate. He was jealous because I earned more.

A relationship cannot survive that.

TheDoctrineOfAllan Thu 13-Jun-13 23:42:22

Oh yoni :-(

LittlePeaPod Fri 14-Jun-13 06:18:45

Yoni I am so sorry... It's awful and you are right a relationship can not survive that kind of betrayal. It's doesn't matter if its a man or woman, its just so wrong.

TVTonight Fri 14-Jun-13 09:21:56

yoni that's awful - a really dreadful assault.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Fri 14-Jun-13 10:30:29

Getting pregnant on purpose/getting someone pregnant on purpose without their consent?

Not okay.

People who believe daddies then have the right to fuck off because well, they changed their mind and why should they have to pay? hmm

Just wow. I can't believe women actually think men shouldn't support their own child regardless of the circumstances. The child is a human being, not a tool to punish a mother/father.

IMO, anyone who thinks this way about fathers and their apparent right to lack of responsibilities is misogynist. And a twat.

Even if a man chooses not to have a relationship with his child, he has responsibility no matter how you twist it and should be at the least finacially supporting said child.

Oh and just to stress: Getting pregnant 'accidentally on purpose' is abhorrent. Doesn't absolve men of the fact fifty percent of that child is theirs.

The posts on here about punishing mothers/why should he pay? Etc etc make me feel like I've gone back in time.

Join the discussion

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now