To be shocked and frustrated with the Islamophobia that's bursting out all over Facebook today?

(673 Posts)
Seekingsense Wed 22-May-13 21:38:56

Following the awful tragedy in Woolwich today.

I have seen everything from "We want our England back" to "Kick out all the foreigners" to "Islamic infiltration of the UK" etc. I have paraphrased as some of the stuff is so horrible I do not want to repeat it.

This is from normal everyday people and lots of them. Is this really what people think?

I, like most people am horrified by what has happened to this young soldier in Woolwich, but why is everyone so quick to blame an entire religion for it and to jump on the 'kick out all immigrants' bandwagon.

What can we do about it? Ignore, delete, post, report?

junkcollector Wed 22-May-13 21:42:25

YANBU. I have had a major "old school friends" cull today!

FrenchRuby Wed 22-May-13 21:43:20

I've deleted 3 people today for racist rants relating to this awful tradegy. Yanbu

YANBU - its terrible.

As was the original crime btw, truly horrifying

Mawgatron Wed 22-May-13 21:44:30

Ditto. I was just about to come on here and start an almost identical thread. It makes me feel very sad that some people think that it is acceptable to post things like that online.

topsyturner Wed 22-May-13 21:44:51

The un friend button has been burning hot for me tonight !

Most of my friends are a bit more intelligent / enlightened than this, but two acquaintances have shown their true colours this evening. On a more positive note, another has posted a message of hope and compassion.

gordyslovesheep Wed 22-May-13 21:45:40

thankfully all of mine so far are sane and anti bigot style

apart from the odd virtual candle which, while wanky, is harmless

so far my friends are doing me proud!

Seekingsense Wed 22-May-13 21:45:51

My worry is, if I just delete them and don't say anything and no one else says anything, it will be accepted as the voice of the masses?

However, I normally try not to enter into 'debates' on Facebook.

If I reported the comments, would they be deleted by Facebook?

Ashoething Wed 22-May-13 21:46:04

I have got the rage over it.posted a comment to an aquaintance as what they are posting is appalling but wish I had just kept a dignified silence.

I did a similar deletion spree when similar events happened. It's fucking disgusting.

WipsGlitter Wed 22-May-13 21:47:50

I've just been thinking 'not my friends' but nope one wankers turned up trumps.

Greydog Wed 22-May-13 21:48:40

I too have been having a sort out of the "send 'em back" brigade. As I pointed out to one the machete gut sounded like a Londoner to me, so where was he going to send them to?

Same here. I came on MN in the hope of finding something reasonable to counter this.

apostropheuse Wed 22-May-13 21:48:58

It's absolutely disgraceful. I'm beyond angry about this stupid and ignorant behaviour.

LynetteScavo Wed 22-May-13 21:49:12

Not from any of my friends.

Did you not know your "friends" held views like these?

Personally I would report and de-freind them.

milkysmum Wed 22-May-13 21:49:22

I have just had this same conversation with my sister over the phone as when I went on facebook was pretty shocked by the amount of racist rants. Like OP said as well what I consider pretty 'normal everyday' people. People linking to something called 'infidels of britain'- pretty heavy racist stuff. Delete/ block all these people?- I don't know what to do either. Nobody can deny this attack is apsolutley horrific- but to blame a whole race/ religion for it?? sad

keepingitgraceful Wed 22-May-13 21:49:47

Similarly have deleted a work colleague and will have no problem telling her why tomorrow.

It's just a shame you can't ignore the ignorant!

IroningBoredDaily Wed 22-May-13 21:53:11

Although nothing too horrendous, a few 'friends' have posted comments I do find offensive and unnecessary. This was a terrible crime by two individuals, not an entire group of people.

bedmonster Wed 22-May-13 21:54:07

Same Wisps. I really really hoped that it wasn't going to turn that way. I'm disgusted about the behaviour of a 'friend'.
I too try not to enter into arguementative debates on fb but things like what i've read make it very very hard to bite my tongue sad

thebody Wed 22-May-13 21:54:50

I remember the Birmingham bombs by the IRA in the 70s.

Irish girls at our school were targeted.

It's what the terrorists want. To spread hate and division.

However I have to say the Muslim community really really need to step up and reiterate 'not in my name'.

Until very recently in the mosque in Birmingham a radical Islamic preacher was talking about the implementing of sharia law and women's rights or lack of them.

Everyone needs to stand up here and say what happened.

2 evil bastard cowards knifed to death an unarmed young man.

This is nothing to do with any religion.

We all need to stand together.

NotYoMomma Wed 22-May-13 21:58:07

The Muslim community have already condemned the attack.

I'm avoiding fb for the time being but have a list of people to.ddelete in themorning

Its horrid. Ive posted on the statuses that the people who did this are British, but some are now saying 'outside influences'. Ive deleted a few, including family members.
Hate this side of Facebook.

One of my friends had 'liked' a page I think she will regret. Otherwise all is quiet.
Edl fb page is sickening.

candyandyoga Wed 22-May-13 22:04:49

I do not condone racism in any way.
I am not white. My parents came to the UK from another country and I am distinctly not 'English' looking. I say this to explain that i am on the other Side of the fence But I DO get that people in this country are frustrated and fed up with what they hear and see about SOME people and what they are doing in the name of religion. Not enough is done. If you want to live in the UK, live by the rules and RESPECT this country and its laws, culture and people. People are sick of this small group of radical people imposing their twisted views here, and I understand this.

AudrinaAdare Wed 22-May-13 22:05:08

YANBU! You think you know someone...

PatPig Wed 22-May-13 22:07:09

"The Muslim community have already condemned the attack."

There is no 'Muslim community', any more than there is a 'white community'.

LingDiLong Wed 22-May-13 22:08:17

No YANBU. And I am calling people on this, if I even make one person see the error of their ways then I'll be happy.

Seekingsense Wed 22-May-13 22:09:51

May I ask what you are posting in response LingDiLong?

AmandaPayneNeedsANap Wed 22-May-13 22:10:24

None of my friends. But I am very selective on who I accept.

This is an awful, awful act of violence. Close to where I used to live. It makes me want to weep. Fucking nutters.

I am not watching the news on purpose.

SignoraStronza Wed 22-May-13 22:11:04

Just one. Young. Ex squaddie. I'm torn between calling him out on it (and thereby showing my other friends, many of whom are immigrants and/or Muslim what divot 'friends' I have) or just quietly deleting him. WWYD?

LingDiLong Wed 22-May-13 22:12:43

Well I am posting specifically in response to the picture of Winston Churchill quoting 'Islam is as dangerous in a man as a rabid dog'. Which also has the comment with it 'Kick the Bastards Out'. I've pointed out that White British People and Christians still murder and commit crime. And also that the picture they are sharing comes from an offshoot of the BNP. So, nothing contentious. I'm just about managing to refrain from saying 'For Fuck's Sake you morons, if you really believe that then you're a racist twat' which is what I really want to say...

NotYoMomma Wed 22-May-13 22:13:52

Oh so sorry hmm the Muslim council of Britain have already condemned the attacks

flippinada Wed 22-May-13 22:14:00

Yes, I sympathise entirely.

Unfortunately, what makes the internet so good - everyone has a voice - is conversely one of the worst things about it. Some people should have their fingers sellotaped together before being allowed anywhere near a keyboard.

xigris Wed 22-May-13 22:14:04

YNBU. sad

DorisIsWaiting Wed 22-May-13 22:16:14

YANBU I've just said the same to DH.

It's depressing.

ShadeofViolet Wed 22-May-13 22:18:39

YANBU sad

flippinada Wed 22-May-13 22:19:34

"There is no 'Muslim community', any more than there is a 'white community'."

I'm somewhat surprised this needs to be pointed out but "White" is not a religion. The comparison is meaningless.

LastTangoInDevonshire Wed 22-May-13 22:21:39

If the Muslim Council of Great Britain have condemned the attacks, why are they not more pro-active in seeking out the people in their mosques who radicalise others? Just asking.

Altinkum Wed 22-May-13 22:22:39

None of my friends either, all on mine have posted about elf for heros and donated too help for heros also.

LingDiLong Wed 22-May-13 22:22:46

Just thought I'd report back that the 2 people who posted that picture have now taken it down....I'm glad I spoke out now

IneedAyoniNickname Wed 22-May-13 22:23:04

Only 1 person I know has posted anything racist. I'm not surprised tbh as the twat has form. I've deleted him.

LulaPalooza Wed 22-May-13 22:29:37

YANBU.

My friend's 24 year old daughter, who I have known since she was 15 months old, has just "liked" a FB status saying "People may see that kind of thing in there country everyday but thats not down to us. If they dont like how we live then they should fuck off back to there own country!"

I came on here to stop myself from sending her a strong message. I thought better of her. Her friend is obviously ignorant (with a limited understanding of grammar).

The thing that saddens me the most is that the young man shown in the ITV footage is quite clearly a South London bloke, probably born and bred here. I would put good money on him having been converted to radical "Islam" in prison. And yet the backlash against Islam continues, ignorance abounds... so fucking depressing.

NB I put Islam in inverted commas because whatever belief system drove that young man to do what he did, it was not Islam.

flippinada Wed 22-May-13 22:30:26

"If the Muslim Council of Great Britain have condemned the attacks, why are they not more pro-active in seeking out the people in their mosques who radicalise others?"

You may as well ask why the Archbishop of Canterbury isn't campaigning against Fred Phelps (head of the vile Westboro Baptist Church). Both men would describe themselves as Christians, but in reality their views are worlds apart.

Is it too much of a stretch to imagine that Islam, as a religion, contains similarly diverse views, some of which are hateful?

LastTangoInDevonshire Wed 22-May-13 22:37:10

flippinada - maybe because Westboro Baptist Church is in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and the Archbishop of Canterbury IS IN THE UK?????

The Muslim Council of GREAT BRITAIN - geddit??

Dawndonna Wed 22-May-13 22:37:34

I have got rid of one or two. Made it very clear exactly where I stand and have put a public message up saying that racist comments will be swiftly deleted.

Sallyingforth Wed 22-May-13 22:37:53

YYY flippinada

Extremism in any religion is dangerous and usually contrary to the core values of its majority believers.

nannyof3 Wed 22-May-13 22:40:11

How is a virtual candle wankey???

amazingmumof6 Wed 22-May-13 22:41:03

have you seen the news about that soldier being cut up with meat cleavers?

CelticPixie Wed 22-May-13 22:41:50

Yes I've unfriended two people this evening. There were not people I knew very well thankfully, but the usual crap. "If they don't like our way of life they can fuck off" and "Nuke all Muslims" etc.

WafflyVersatile Wed 22-May-13 22:41:55

Luckily I don't have any friends like this.

FunnysInLaJardin Wed 22-May-13 22:43:58

inevitable I am afraid. It angers me so much that the extremist islamic fringe plays into the hands of UKIP and such like. I haven't looked at FB but no doubt my MIL will have something stupid to say about it

flippinada Wed 22-May-13 22:44:06

I used that to illustrate the point that both religions contain widely diverse opinions. It's not really that hard to comprehend.

GrendelsMum Wed 22-May-13 22:45:02

Yes indeed, Salyingforth. If there's something that the 20th century showed us, it's that almost anything - religion, political views, a desire to make life better for ordinary people - taken to an extreme can result in horrifying and tragic consequences.

And the groups of people we like to lump together as one, will have a wide range of opinions on most subjects - as wide a range as Mumsnetters do, for example.

Methe Wed 22-May-13 22:45:43

Nanny you asked the question I wanted too. What is wrong with a candle?

flippinada Wed 22-May-13 22:46:42

Sorry, that last post to Tango, cross posts.

CelticPixie Wed 22-May-13 22:47:29

A lot of people in this country seem to be really soppy about soldiers. It would have been bad enough had this just been a random member of the public who was hacked to bits, but as soon as I heard it was one of "our brave boys/lads" I knew all hell would break lose. Don't get me wrong its a horrific way to die and I feel terrible for him and his family, but by condemning all Muslims these people are as filled with just much hate as the perpetrators.

picnicbasketcase Wed 22-May-13 22:50:12

So, the people on these FB pages saying things like 'If I see a Muslim tomorrow it's payback time' (like they can identify a person's religion by sight hmm) and using revolting racist language. Will anything be done about it? During the riots people ended up in court trying to spread the violence further, isn't this display of, ahem, 'patriotism' the same thing?

LastTangoInDevonshire Wed 22-May-13 22:51:34

Ok flippinada try this - the Archbishop of C has no control over any religious zealots in the USA.

The Muslim Council of GB does have. And, if they don't, they should have.

gwenniebee Wed 22-May-13 22:52:04

It's horrendous - both the crime and the responses. Fortunately none of my friends have posted anything, but one lady said how terrible it was and one of her friends wrote something unspeakable in the comments. She doesn't appear to have responded to him, but I am tempted to....

Celtic my brother is a soldier and I can assure you a lot of people in this country are far from soppy about them.

YokoUhOh Wed 22-May-13 22:52:55

A few people I know have changed their profile pic to that of a Union Flag. Not entirely sure what they're trying to say but I've got a good idea <hits defriend button>

qualitytoffee Wed 22-May-13 22:56:49

Celtic, i agree.
i've defriended friends as well, though i guess the media don't help either.
But it was a horrible cold blooded murder, to a young man.

Dawndonna Wed 22-May-13 22:56:58

The Archbishop of Canterbury has little control here,too. Otherwise we may well have women bishops. You can't expect Muslim clerics to police everybody, or Anglican priests.

FunnysInLaJardin Wed 22-May-13 22:57:43

just looked on FB and provided support to my lovely vicar friend of old who is very upset at the reaction and threatening to leave FB. She is a wonderful woman and is a lone voice amongst all the frothing.

Mimishimi Wed 22-May-13 23:00:08

Why was there no assistance from the barracks for the victim? They had no security posted? That sounds very odd to me. In their statement, the offenders said that women had to witness this kind of thing every day in their country (presumably somewhere in Africa). Yet that is usually Africans killing other Africans, not British soldiers. I do understand the concept of what goes around comes around but why not just say that Iraqi/Afghani women are witnessing this kind of thing every day? If they are doing it in the name of Allah, I think it's reasonable to expect Muslim leaders to condemn it just as you would expect that if someone did something like this in the name of Jesus (eg abortion clinic bombings), you would expect mainstream Christian leaders to condemn it.

Fakebook Wed 22-May-13 23:00:15

No one has mentioned anything on my newsfeed. I suspect one will write something tomorrow, but she's the same woman whose husband went on a "crusades" mission to India.

TSSDNCOP Wed 22-May-13 23:06:56

I've just deleted a frothing, racist family member. She's gone totally over the top. It's actually embarrassing that we share the same gene pool. Racist frothing "English" people inciting violence and unable to even spell patriotism.

I have absolute sympathy for the victim of this atrocity and their family.

But this is an act perpetrated by madmen. Possibly a terrorist act.

Inciting racism plays absolutely into their blood-covered hands and black souls.

LulaPalooza Wed 22-May-13 23:08:13

Mimi the man from the ITV footage who is one of the alleged perpetrators is South London through and through. He isn't "presumably" from Africa. He has been radicalised somewhere, somehow (I have views on that, as you can probably tell from my previous post).

He says "in our land". That could mean anywhere but possibly he is referring to Palestine.

thebody Wed 22-May-13 23:09:26

Lets forget Facebook..., just for once aye... Lets just grieve, all together on mumsnet for someone's son.

FunnysInLaJardin Wed 22-May-13 23:09:59

TSS well done! I don't have the guts to delete or even comment on the nutsters, there are too many!

EleanorFarjeon Wed 22-May-13 23:10:10

I have just hidden post (from a good friend) that was a complete racist rant concluding with 'time to take our country back!!'

Sickening.

qualitytoffee Wed 22-May-13 23:13:47

Its over the top reactionalist rubbish. I've deleted as well, and i agree with you thebody xxx

saintmerryweather Wed 22-May-13 23:16:26

my mum is the worst offender on my newsfeed for this however a colleague has posted saying that the murderers should be hung and their families with them. another has 'liked' the comment. i dont know that i can keep my mouth shut at work tomorrow

allinatizz Wed 22-May-13 23:17:26

One of my friends has reposted a comment on fb which has something to do with the Australian PM making a speech telling "Muslims" if they don't like Australia they can leave. The gist is that "immigrants need to adapt to our way of life". The reposting was (I assume) a response to today's tragic events.

But really.... white Australians spouting vitriol about immigrants? Irony on a stick, I'd say! hmm

Smacks of the Daily Mail and I had no idea that my friend held those kinds of racist views.

NotYoMomma Wed 22-May-13 23:20:12

I've just confronted one of DHs family for posting pro Edo messages and kicking off that you get arrested.for wearing a sas mask but not a bhurka...

Said one was clothing for modesty, one was kit for warfare...

patently I

Mimishimi Wed 22-May-13 23:20:21

He may be fourth generation British but I really, really doubt 'his land' is in Palestine.

NotYoMomma Wed 22-May-13 23:21:32

He also kicked off about 'what happened to British empire. I despair

IneedAyoniNickname Wed 22-May-13 23:21:39

And the second friend with racist rants has begun sad including "why are we treating that.scum in OUR hospitals, let them rot"

Do we actually know what nationality/race they are? They could be British could they not? (not that that makes the crime less horrific)
And the BBC website says it hadn't been confirmed that the victim is a soldier?

cherhorowitz Wed 22-May-13 23:23:30

I've been on a deleting spree of friends that I never knew held these disgusting beliefs. Shouts that if we send them all back our problems are over. Saying that the town in which she lives with her forces husband has had 0 murders in 10 years because there are 0 Muslims.

I just can't.

feetheart Wed 22-May-13 23:26:03

Here, here thebody.

I just thank God there was no Facebook in the 70's and 80's when all the Irish were terrorists. All I had to make sure I kept my accent to myself.

qualitytoffee Wed 22-May-13 23:29:35

Me an All feet x sad

Mimishimi Wed 22-May-13 23:31:43

What 'happened' to the British Empire is that the rest of us knew we were just the cannon fodder and didn't want to do it anymore. Of course those running the show had it cushy, the rest of us lived in terror and fear of our husbands/sons being forced away from us.

TSSDNCOP Wed 22-May-13 23:33:26

But these FB frothers are so pathetic and toothless, they're posting pictures of Churchill and yet unable to spell "patriotism".

Tomorrow they will have no broader perspective on this than to quote the tabs and then they'll go back to quoting Heat and Closer about Kim K's latest footwear.

I'd have at least a modicum f respect for their views if the extent of their expertise want the ability to press the "share" button.

Wankers.

Buzzardbird Wed 22-May-13 23:40:28

Does no-one 'report' these posts? They are illegal. I have just reported my own nephew. It saddens me that my dd is related to someone so ignorant.

Buzzardbird Wed 22-May-13 23:42:45

One poster I was arguing with posted "why should we pay for 'there' education?!!!".
You cannot argue with stupid.

GrendelsMum Wed 22-May-13 23:43:16

it taints the way you look at people, doesn't it?

sad for you and your nephew, Buzzardbird

Chipstick10 Wed 22-May-13 23:46:17

I'm angry with the ranting racist fuck from the Muslim public affairs committee. Why is he being given a platform on news chanels?

PatPig Wed 22-May-13 23:47:22

It's probably worth remembering the events of a 2011, when there was a week of rioting, 5 deaths and numerous injuries, in response to the shooting of a suspected drug dealer by the police.

In contrast, people posting offensive statements on Facebook doesn't really compare.

qualitytoffee Wed 22-May-13 23:51:02

Look, perhaps when they calm down, they'll see differently. sad
Or maybe not, but i agree, this young mans death will be a kickstart to the BNP and their followers to start a hate run.
I hope that everyone are safe tonight, whatever religion xxxxx

BegoniaBampot Wed 22-May-13 23:56:33

Think you have got to look at the kind of people you have as 'friends'. I never have this kind of crap I read about on FB. Have about 60 friends (deliberately keep it low)but they don't post arsehole stuff.

thebody Thu 23-May-13 00:14:18

Er can we just for one moment.

STOP and remember there are psychopaths and nasty bastards from each and every country.

I can't bring religion into this as hate has no place in religion. That's just a smoke screen for getting away with terror.

This is the murder of another human being.

I fully understand the impact of the Internet as I saw my daughters coach crash plastered all over it before we knew she was alive or dead.

That's real life. Lets send mumsnet wishes to this poor family and for now forget social media.

vivizone Thu 23-May-13 00:18:33

My friend (who I will delete) just liked this post from her friend who's profile shows she works for Santander

that poor soldier, what a disgrace. get the muslims out of OUR country!

Vile. It kills me how people will have open FB and spout any old shit. Don't they care or are they too thick?

pinkballetflats Thu 23-May-13 00:28:09

I've just gone and had a look at a couple of reports and watched the footage given to ITV and I have two questions:

1) How do people know the man who was speaking to the camera is Muslim?
2) Why are only his hands and the meat cleaver bloody?

From the aerial view of the scene there was a lot of the victim's blood on the ground, and yet this man has no splatter on him at all.

I can't even face my Facebook feed...I have one particular friend who is verging on being a Nazi and I know what I will find there....

Mimishimi Thu 23-May-13 00:39:30

He claims to be Muslim? Also, they are wearing dark clothes so blood spatter wouldn't necessarily be obvious? Do you think there could be more to this?

SarahAndFuck Thu 23-May-13 00:46:24

Allinatizz - I've seen that Australian thing as well and Snopes has already proved it was wrongly attributed to Julia Gilliard and was never said or written by any of the other Australian PMs either.

pinkballetflats Thu 23-May-13 00:46:36

No, I'm not saying he claims to be Muslim...but from what I've seen on my FB feed and various things I've been reading across the net there seems to be a lot of assumption that he is Muslim and I'm wondering why?

The grey coat he's wearing would show blood spatter, it's not that dark IMO.

I have no idea whether there's more to it or not, and I'm not assuming anything..it was just the first thing that jumped out at me...uniform blood covering on his one hand that he keeps holding up and on the knife and the hand holding it but no blood anywhere else.

Regardless of that jumping out at me, it's incidental - there's a man lying in a morgue somewhere and a grieving family.

BMW6 Thu 23-May-13 00:59:14

STOP and remember there are psychopaths and nasty bastards from each and every country. (and religion)

Totally agree. A number of people have been attacked with knives, axes and machetes in the recent past. In this country. By all sorts of perpetrators, of all races and religions. They only have one thing in common - they are all Sociopaths.

pinkballetflats Thu 23-May-13 01:10:30

Sorry, mimishimi...I finally caught him saying "By Allah..." in the footage...took me 5 listens to get that. Fair enough.

Mimishimi Thu 23-May-13 01:14:39

I've never heard a Muslim say "By Allah" though .. It's always Allahu Akbar. Are they converts I wonder?

pinkballetflats Thu 23-May-13 01:20:19

I've only had the privilege of one lovely Muslim friend and we never really talked religion except in passing (we shared a love of a certain series of books) so I wouldn't know.

Mimishimi Thu 23-May-13 01:23:20

Well, that's true. The ones I know don't say "Allahu Akbar" either in normal convo ... Just 'inshallah' which translates to 'God willing'. This isn't quite normal though.

lottieandmia Thu 23-May-13 01:23:20

YANBU - there appear to be some people incapable of sensible thought.

pinkballetflats Thu 23-May-13 01:30:58

Well, whatever they claim to be, these two psychopaths seem to have gotten what they wanted and will continue to get what they want tonight if news reports are accurate: mosques being attacked and riots apparently starting in addition to them having killed a man in cold blood.

Why do people play into the hands of crazy individuals?

StuntGirl Thu 23-May-13 01:31:26

I keep my friends list very low and carefully edited so for the most part I don't see disgusting knee jerk reactions like this. I have one new facebook friend, an acquaintance, who has posted some knee jerk rubbish about 'getting our soldiers out' and some wank about 'true Brits standing together'. The only reason she hasn't been deleted yet is that I commented underneath calling her out on it and I want to see what she replies.

flippinada Thu 23-May-13 07:25:50

I've had a look and I see that the Muslim Council of Great Britain is a third sector organisation.

Expecting them to "do something" about someone who commits a violent crime and says it's because they're a Muslim terrorist is the equivalent of expecting (say) the Samaritans to "do something" about every mentally ill person who commits a violent crime.

Binkybix Thu 23-May-13 07:30:48

There's nothing like this on mine, but amazingly I have seen someone saying that the two men were right. The boy who posted it is an utter twat anyway, so has finally prompted me to de friend.

vivizone Thu 23-May-13 07:43:51

A 15 year old wrote this on FB:

In light of the recent events in Woolwich, I'd like to invite my Facebook friends who possess the opinion that a race of people are to blame for the actions of two individuals to comment on this status. Firstly, to expose you as a racist, ignorant bigot. Secondly, to identify those who I should no longer associate with and unfriend.

Cat98 Thu 23-May-13 07:59:33

I have deleted someone for posting that there should only be c of e and Catholic Churches in the uk. Because 'there are no Christian places of worship in 'their' countries, and why should 'they' come here and expect to be pandered to.
What this actually has to do with the awful violence today, I have no idea!

threesypeesy Thu 23-May-13 08:03:07

I don't care what race or religion those evil men are but to do something so horrific to one of our soldiers is unacceptable and they shouldn't be in this country with those intentions imho I don't care who has an issue with it I have a bother who served in the armed forces and several family friends some who have sadly been killed.

Our soldiers should be safe in their own country!!!! No racism etc in my views I just don't believe terrorist should be treated with any dignity or compassion.

So sad for this poor man and his family/friends and fellow soldiers , it is lovely to see more people getting behind our troops and the help for heros charity as a result though as they need it!

Dawndonna Thu 23-May-13 08:09:33

I just don't believe terrorist should be treated with any dignity or compassion.
Care to have that discussion with Nelson Mandela?

One man's freedom fighter...

All people should be treated with dignity and compassion, that is what sets us apart. Full force of the law, but treated as a human being.

ophelia275 Thu 23-May-13 08:10:27

To be honest I think it is better that people get rid of their verbal diarrhea online and purge their anger with words (that can be ignored) than go out onto the street with knives or meat cleavers in revenge.

I'm not saying any of this is right but it is much better for ignorant people (of all religions and races) to have an outlet via words where they can release their aggression than taking it out on innocent people in the street with physical violence? Remember the old saying "sticks and stones...".

MrsBungle Thu 23-May-13 08:15:31

None of my Facebook friends have said anything untoward. A few have liked a page saying rip woolwich soldier. I'm glad I seem to have nice friends.

isn't it strange how people are more appalled by this than the fact that an innocent man has been hacked to bloody pieces.
all I care about at the moment are him and his family.

Seekingsense Thu 23-May-13 08:17:07

vivizone I applaud your extremely mature 15 year old friend and may steal his post.

It's been getting worse over night: "We should send them all back to their countries" with the comment underneath "Don't deport them - They all seem to love Allah, send them to meet him."

I don't want to just delete as I feel they need to be challenged on this.

Seekingsense Thu 23-May-13 08:19:48

isn't it strange how people are more appalled by this than the fact that an innocent man has been hacked to bloody pieces.

I don't believe that this is the case. My thoughts, and I'm guessing thoses of most Mumsnetters, are with this man and his family, however it's worrying that this may lead to more violence on both sides.

Wishfulmakeupping Thu 23-May-13 08:20:48

Really don't see how liking a memorial candle or RIP pg is offensive how is paying your respects offensive. What a sad world this is

Moominsarehippos Thu 23-May-13 08:27:46

This is why I don't 'facebook'. If people rant, which I completely understand (shock, fear, dismay, anger), then challenge, discuss, engage.

he so-called muslim voices we hear loudest are the most alarming. If it wasn't religion, they'd be thugs for another reason (money, drugs, sake of violence).

Ok so there are nuts of all religions/none preaching hate, mistrust and violence, but many are purely doing so for the reasons of politics and power.

The man I heard (attacker) sounded like a "larndelunner mate". He talked about 'you people' 'your government' threatened 'you people and your children' then about 'our soldiers'. Clearly mad. He probably hasn't a clue about religion beyond the barmpots on the internet. Rumour is that his origins are in Somalia. I wonder if he has ever been there, or actually really knows about the place, history and politics of the place?

It puts the fear of god into me to know that there are people out there who have this violence and hate in them and this it fuelled by some twat over the internet. These people don't thinl "hey, I'm going to try to make the world a better place, get into politics, feed the poor...". No, they go out to hurt and kill.

I'm just waiting for the conspiracy nuts to start their thoughts on the incident.

I .haven't seen a thread on here saying anything about this poor man.
imagine how his family are feeling.imagine if that was your son or brother or father and the only sympathy you were seeing was aimed towards an ethnic group rather than you?
yet again lets forget the real victims here eh?
lets make this about not offending someone

Cat98 Thu 23-May-13 08:31:17

No one has said the RIP pages or candles are offensive!

And I for one am not 'more appalled' by the fb stuff - the attack was awful and I believe the perpetrators should be locked up for life. I am disgusted by the racism this seems to have brought to the surface though - and the implications (more hate, violence etc) are extremely worrying.

2 people did this. A MINORITY of extremists share their views. We are objecting to a whole race or religion being tarred with the same brush. Ignorant and dangerous.

Dawndonna Thu 23-May-13 08:32:20

Ur You're talking complete bloody nonsense. This isn't about offending people or not offending people, it's about objecting to a knee jerk reaction that will, if not challenged lead to further violence. There is not one of us who does not feel for the family. However, it doesn't exclude all parts of life, such as dealing with prejudice so that we can all enjoy living in a fairer and less violent society.

cory Thu 23-May-13 08:33:19

To be honest, when that poor African child was tortured and murdered as a witch in her relatives' bizarre interpretation of Christianity, I did not feel called upon to distance myself as a Christian from their actions. Nor did I see the Pope or the Archbishop of Canterbury rushing to do so.

We all knew we would be perfectly safe from any association with a madwoman who committed murder in the name of our religion. And tbh I don't feel in the least responsible or tainted by it.

I don't remember any calls to send people like that back to their own country either, though (unlike the present murderers) she was actually an immigrant.

But I see that the Muslim Council have spoken out against the current atrocity. Because unlike me and the Pope and the Archbishop they know they will be blamed.

I don't see what country they'd be sending these guys back to though: they were not from any Middle Easter country but British black.

MumfordandDaughter Thu 23-May-13 08:39:14

I, too, am disgusted by the verbal abuse about religion and race this awful attack has triggered among people.

I am also confused why these racists are being (quite rightly) berated for what they are saying, but a woman i posted about the other day talking the same way about Christianity was treated with sympathy by the majority of MNtrs... confused

People are in a state of shock and fear and speaking out of turn because of this. In a few weeks, i'm sure many of them will regret what they've said and/or how they've reacted.

My heart is aching for that solider and his family. It's also bursting with pride at the bravery of certain people in Woolwich yesterday such as the Head Teacher and the woman who confronted the attackers.

No, it's not fair to tar everyone with the same brush because of some awful people. i only wish the same rule would apply to all religions/races.

My count is at five for deletions at the moment. One woman who I thought I knew rather well just posted a video of a BNP march being kettled by the police, with the caption "Go on, boys!" along with a string of profanities and a call to chuck all the 'Islamics' out of our country.

Very depressing.

ParsingFancy Thu 23-May-13 08:42:43

You're clearly not reading the same MN as I am if you haven't seen thread after thread full of sympathy towards the dead man and bereaved family, UR.

samandi Thu 23-May-13 08:44:14

Hm, haven't seen anything like that on my Facebook page. There was something about supporting Help for Heroes but I had to go away and look at the news to see what it was about.

getyourheadout Thu 23-May-13 08:48:38

thats the good thing about facebook , you can write what you want , its your opinion on your wall ,im glad people say what they think ,too many people stick their head in the sand ,dont want to see whats going on right under their nose , at least facebook lets you see real peoples views instead of all this pc claptrap .

flippinada Thu 23-May-13 08:51:09

It's not either/or situation. You can be horrified by what happened, feel compassion for the victim and simultaneously be concerned about the awful knee jerk racism that inevitably follows.

Dawndonna Thu 23-May-13 08:52:08

pc claptrap? getyourheadout? Appropriate name.
It's not pc claptrap, it's a speaking against racism. That's not pc, it's the right thing to do. I do not welcome bigots anywhere.

I was pointing out that the focus here should be on the horrific crime that has been commited but it seems by some peoples comments on here that that has become the secondary issue.

ParsingFancy Thu 23-May-13 09:07:46

Well last night MNers in Woolwich were going to bed afraid because the EDL had turned up and attacked police in their streets. And two mosques have been attacked.

So I think the secondary issue is also important.

And just for clarity, the secondary issue is "not having racial and religious violence", not "not offending muslims".

Ray81 Thu 23-May-13 09:10:24

I cannot actually believe what someone in my family has just written.

Ok..... So some people are not going to like this but who is to blame for all the Muslims that live in our country? WE ARE. We let them live in our country by there own rule not ours!! We let them build mosques anywhere they want to !! We let them do what they want when they want! What do they have to do before we stand up and say FUCK OFF !! Because we've told by for so long and it's too late and we should be ashamed of ourselves.

My jaw just met the floor I cannot actually believe people think this way. They will be deleted.

I want to call them on it but I could say so much ok don't actually know where to start

I'm fearing for my muslim friends today, as I know the backlash they've received in the wake of other events. As well as my friends who look remotely Asian, regardless of their religion.

I'm sure I can say for everyone on this thread how appalled they are and how much they're thinking of the poor man and his family and friends. But that doesn't mean we can't all be angry about stupid racist outpourings in the wake of it.

cory Thu 23-May-13 09:13:20

urtwisting, there are numerous threads about this tragic incident on MN: expressing horror and sympathy with family, criticising the police etc. This one happens to be the thread about islamophobia. So that#s what it's about.

P.s. I do know the perpetrators weren't Asian, but my Asian friends often get abuse when people go mad at muslims

TSSDNCOP Thu 23-May-13 09:17:02

I've got a newsfeed message saying "deport them all back to Islam"

hmm

ithaka Thu 23-May-13 09:24:12

This sort of thread makes me realise I have cool friends - and reminds me why I am friends with them. There have been candle lighting posts and posts in sympathy for the sad loss of a young man's life. But i have seen absolutely no racist rants on my Facebook. I love my friends and family.

ParsingFancy Thu 23-May-13 09:25:45

Actually scrub that.

Not having religious and racial violence is the primary issue.

Inciting such hatred was (very likely) the purpose of this attack. Anyone who joins in with the hatred is doing just what the murderers' want.

ParsingFancy Thu 23-May-13 09:26:13

meh, stray apostrophe

I'm ashamed that my own family members are sharing and liking this stuff. I'm using it as a litmus test to delete racists and bigots now.

lottieandmia Thu 23-May-13 09:42:36

'I don't care what race or religion those evil men are but to do something so horrific to one of our soldiers is unacceptable and they shouldn't be in this country'

This is the kind of ignorant comment I've seen on facebook. The liklihood is the people who did this were born here ffs.

lottieandmia Thu 23-May-13 09:44:25

' Remember the old saying "sticks and stones...".'

Sorry Ophelia but that is just rubbish isn't it? Words and propaganda are extremely damaging - how could you possibly argue otherwise?

fromparistoberlin Thu 23-May-13 09:45:02

AGREE

i have seen 2, first about the Oxford sex abuse then one yesterday

I responded to both , yay! fucking sick of racism, no more will I let these comments pass me by

Fucks sake, the Woolwich guys were murderous fucking sociopaths

DONT BRING ISLAM INTO IT

Lazyjaney Thu 23-May-13 09:48:52

Is it just me who finds the whole thing a bit strange? the media were all very quick to talk about muslim terrorism, when it could be MH issues or something, they are usually more sceptical like in Tenerife.

Also, the police took quite a while to get there, in London?) and these guys apparently hung around waiting for them. Something here just doesn't seem right.

SusanneLinder Thu 23-May-13 09:51:41

I stayed away from fb pretty much. I think there is only one person that I cam imagine I may need to delete. Will read tonight

FairyJen Thu 23-May-13 09:51:58

Dp is a journalist he is saying they believe the bloke with sarf London accent is actually Somalian

threesypeesy Thu 23-May-13 09:52:49

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

lottieandmia Thu 23-May-13 09:55:12

My brain switches off to anyone who says 'fuck off back to your own country' tbh. As I said, ignorant.

lottieandmia Thu 23-May-13 09:56:46

This reminds me of the riots - some people bigots used that as am excuse to air their racists leanings. It says far more about them than anyone else.

threesypeesy Thu 23-May-13 09:58:04

It isn't ignorance if your killing I this country out of warpped retaliation you dont deserve to be here unlike the thousands of otheds that have settled and made good lives fkr themselves and respect the country

seeker Thu 23-May-13 09:58:08

Show them this. It might make them shut up for long enough for you to delete them.

ThreeDudesOnABus Thu 23-May-13 09:58:40

YABU. These men who act in the name of Islam expressed themselves yesterday in Woolwich, some people express themselves on facebook.

Give yourself a cookie for having a right-on Guardian opinion though. Give yourself an extra cookie for posting here!

ThreeDudesOnABus Thu 23-May-13 10:00:05

And without being sarky - YABVU to be "shocked" - have you not had the slightest inkling over the last few years that things were going in this direction? Seriously? Where do you live? The Cotswolds?

Chipstick10 Thu 23-May-13 10:00:07

Can u blame people for knee jerk reactions and anger? It's human nature. Lets not lose sight of what happened yesterday. Our sympathies should be with the victim and all our armed forces.

Apparently no being a racist twat is having a 'right-on Guardian opinion'.

<takes cookie> I never knew we got cookies for not being racist twats, that's awesome.

Can u blame people for knee jerk reactions and anger?

Yes I can, it's dangerous and has already led to attacks against innocent Muslims.

Our thoughts should be with the innocent people dealing with the fallout of this, Muslims included.

YokoUhOh Thu 23-May-13 10:02:16

The 'Britain First' Facebook group is a hotbed of racism and illiteracy this morning. My favourite comment? ''The government needs to take acton NOW!' hmm <warns all friends in W3 to sit tight>

threesypeesy Thu 23-May-13 10:03:24

No craps our thoughts should be with the victim their family and the armed forces

seeker Thu 23-May-13 10:03:42

I'll just keep posting this Because it barely made the news......

Dawndonna Thu 23-May-13 10:04:12

YABU. These men who act in the name of Islam expressed themselves yesterday in Woolwich, some people express themselves on facebook.

Give yourself a cookie for having a right-on Guardian opinion though. Give yourself an extra cookie for posting here!

Awfully sorry your cerebral cortex has been cut.
Thanks for the cookie, much appreciated, I like being rewarded for not being a bigotted moron.

No craps our thoughts should be with the victim their family and the armed forces

So, basically, fuck the innocent people being targeted because of this we shouldn't care about them too? Why? Because they're Muslim?

ODFOD.

Dawndonna Thu 23-May-13 10:06:10

No craps our thoughts should be with the victim their family and the armed forces
Or everybody. The victims family, the muslim population who are going to be made to suffer mindless violence for the mindless violence of others (EDL) and anybody else caught up in this.

Stupidity reigns on all sides it seems. EDF Energy are being given flack on twitter for 'their' protest last night...

lottieandmia Thu 23-May-13 10:07:03

So, what do you think we should do threesypeesy - deport all criminals to an island somewhere?

You need to be able to see further than your own nose to realise that ignorant comments about people going back to their country, as if people born in the UK are incapable of psychopathic crimes will cause general bad feeling in our communities. This is not about race. But some people choose to make it about race because they are racists and dying for an excuse to have a racist rant.

Exactly Dawndonna.

Mmmmm this not being a racist biscuit is lovely!

FairyJen Thu 23-May-13 10:08:14

Well it actually works both ways. We live in SE London, dp has just text saying someone shouted "racist" at him as he went for tube.

He has a skin head and looks a bit rough. He is not a racist he is ginger and doesn't like it. The whole thing is fucking pathetic angry

EagleRiderDirk I recommend you enjoy it with a not being a reactionary bigot brew too.

AngsanaTree Thu 23-May-13 10:10:09

Jesus, I despair at the PC nonsense on this site I really do.

Dawndonna Thu 23-May-13 10:12:33

Jesus, I despair at the mindless bigotry on this site, I really do.

Ooo, punctuation, too!

Jesus, I despair at the PC nonsense on this site I really do.

Then why don't you just FTFO and don't let the door hit you on the way out. grin

Or even better, join this site. Probably much more to your tastes.

lottieandmia Thu 23-May-13 10:14:01

People who say 'PC nonsense' usually mean they are annoyed that it's no longer socially acceptable to be a bigot in public.

ivanapoo Thu 23-May-13 10:14:12

seeker thanks for posting that. Unsurprisingly I hadn't seen it. I will post on FB.

lottieandmia
'I don't care what race or religion those evil men are but to do something so horrific to one of our soldiers is unacceptable and they shouldn't be in this country' - maybe they're thinking put them on a boat to Australia...

Chipstick I don't blame people for being angry with the killers. I DO blame people for being angry with whole religions, races and immigrants as a result of what these men did.

Someone said on Facebook that the killing overshadowed the fact people were inciting hatred against Muslims. I have to disagree. What happened yesterday was tragic and sick but the

ItsallisnowaFeegle Thu 23-May-13 10:14:19

YADNBU! It's vile. I actually feel that the ignorance of far too many people in this country is sickening.

I actually felt the need to tell one particular 'friend' she was vile and that her spew was misinformed and damn right racist and offensive. This from someone who had previously been in an IAG role within the community and is currently attempting to secure a similar role shock

They tried to justify their vitriolic spew and that just made me shock

I plan on spending time erasing such filth from my Facebook today.

ivanapoo Thu 23-May-13 10:14:47

Potential violence and hatred could have much greater repercussions.

Dawndonna Thu 23-May-13 10:14:55

Craps Warn me first, that site made me shudder and spill my coffee!
Sorry, is that a bit too pc?

seeker Thu 23-May-13 10:14:58
LastTangoInDevonshire Thu 23-May-13 10:15:53

You see? You non-racist people are getting just as nasty as you profess racist people are. I bet if you were face to face you would come to blows. And that is ok as well?

Angsana
PC nonsense like recognising that all the followers of a religion are not responsible for the lunatic actions of two vile individuals.

My DH and DC are Muslim. DH is appalled at what these men have done, he thinks it is an act of barbaric insanity. So I will say that from the 3 muslims in my household, this was not done in their name and it is an insult to Islam and an insult to the people of Britain.

Our sympathies to the family of the young man who was killed.

getyourheadout Thu 23-May-13 10:17:30

seeker like it says it MAY have been racial .

LastTangoInDevonshire

Really? Because I've yet to run to my nearest racist's house and threaten them with a knife and a grenade.

Chipstick10 Thu 23-May-13 10:19:28

How about saving your spewing faces for the vile killers and their like who want to try and scare the shit out of the people of this country. Who want to change our way of life and create a holy war out of ignorance and a misinformed ideology. It's wrong to blame Islam and its equally wrong to blame foreign policy as some sort of excuse for savage killings of innocent soldiers on our streets.

getyourheadout Thu 23-May-13 10:19:53

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

In light of the article seeker posted can anyone truly explain to me the difference between terrorism and hate crime? Because I can't see much.

Chipstick it's not one or the other, you know? We can dislike extremist Muslims AND racist shits. hmm

HoHoHoNoYouDont Thu 23-May-13 10:22:40

I don't see why the press always have to include the 'motivation' for the attack as soon as it happens before the culprit has been caught, questioned and charged. Spouting 'racially motivated' just stirs up more shit.

lottieandmia Thu 23-May-13 10:23:42

Ivanapoo - you've matched me up with a post I didn't make - please don't mistake me for one of the bigots!

Tryharder Thu 23-May-13 10:24:32

I think most people ranting on FB are just having a knee jerk reaction to a shocking event. Agree with the Poster who said that the perpetrators are probably radicalised Muslim converts who have a downer on society and are using the religion as a ways and means.

A friend of mine has just written a very lovely post on FB in response to a friend of hers who had written something knee-jerky and anti Islamic. The writer of the original post had to back down and apologise as her post was so reasoned.

Perhaps people on here should consider that rather than defriending which just comes across badly.

Blaming all Muslims for this horrendous deed is about as rational as blaming all taxi drivers for what happened in Cumbria in 2010.

In many cases 'knee jerk reaction' is a very flimsy excuse for what was just simmering below the surface of closet racists' minds all along.

moreyear Thu 23-May-13 10:27:49

I think you are being entirely unreasonable to be surprised and frustrated that on the day two men hacked another man to death, invoking Allah and further threatening 'You people will never be safe' that people are expressing revulsion at Islamic Fundamentalism/Radicalised Islam. If they seek to blame all Muslims (as opposed to Islamic fundamentalists) that of course is completely unreasonable and wrong of them.

seeker Thu 23-May-13 10:29:20

Anybody whose "knee-jerk" response is bigotry is a bigot. Just a bigot who managed to keep it under wraps most of the time.

lottieandmia Thu 23-May-13 10:31:28

Racism is a knee jerk response though isn't it? When people cannot use their brains and reason out that their position doesn't make any sense.

TattyDevine Thu 23-May-13 10:32:56

allinatizz that speech was never made by Julia Gillard, the prime minister of Australia. Its been doing the rounds for ages but it never happened, its a hoax.

TattyDevine Thu 23-May-13 10:34:18
Buzzardbird Thu 23-May-13 10:34:21

Oh dear god, I have just been asked "who's side are you on?" because I have challenged all the racist posts on my fb.
I have answered "the human race, this is a planet, not a football match"
Please tell me this will be over soon, I am worried to death about my family when people are saying such hateful things about anyone who's skin is not white?

seeker Thu 23-May-13 10:34:31

It's only a knee jerk response if racism is part of your mental furniture. You can be outraged, furious, heartbroken, a host of other emotions- but you have to be racist for your response to be a racist one.

lottieandmia Thu 23-May-13 10:36:25

Exactly, seeker.

wibblyjelly Thu 23-May-13 10:36:56

I've deleted 2 people so far. The remainder of my friends understand the actions of 2 men don't speak for a whole race or religion.

everlong Thu 23-May-13 10:37:39

I thought I'd missed out on any twattery. Sadly not.
Just blocked someone I used to go to school with for some really nasty stuff.

Definitely seeker I once saw a black lad kicking a smaller lad's head like a football, my first reaction wasn't to shout racist insults at him.

FunnysInLaJardin Thu 23-May-13 10:39:48

Dawndonna some excellent posts there. get you are behaving like an arse

What some of these racists don't seem to realise is that they are on the same continuum as the islamic extremists. Anyone who thinks they have the right to attack individual or a whole group because they think differenly, worship differently, look or dress differently is a bigot.

AngsanaTree Thu 23-May-13 10:52:36

I think someone was referring to me as a bigot.

Bigot: a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

Well, let me see. I've lived in 5 different countries, 3 of them non Christian. I presently live in a place where Hindu, Muslim, Christians and Buddhist live in harmony side by side. I've never had a moments disagreement with any of these people and never will because we each collectively respect each other. There is no racial tension here worth making the headlines. On the flip side to this if any one group started having people of authority preaching racial hate, they would be slung in jail and it just wouldn't get off the ground.

I repeat that I am agog at the PC brigade on here. A poor young soldier has been brutally executed, possibly decapitated and your main concern is your facebook friends offending others. No revenge attacks have happened (and I would be equally appalled if they did), you may want to direct your thoughts to his poor family instead.

Someone told me to FTFO and slam the door. No need to dear as I left 16 years ago. It's only when you watch the UK from afar that you see the madness and the pickles that you have gotten yourself in with your misguided political correctness. I was thinking of coming back, but you'll be glad to hear that I think I have changed my mind.

Dawndonna, apologies if the gramma is not up to your standard love grin

MolotovCocktail Thu 23-May-13 10:54:10

I've haven't read all posts. I've read up to p3 and just now, p9.

I agree that those who incite racism are bringing themselves onto the same field as extremists. This dreadful murder seems like an excuse to me, to display appalling attitudes.

I thankfully haven't needed to delete any friends of mine. I have in the past; we didn't really know eachother and I'm proud to say that the people who I associate with are thinking and compassionate people.

I have, however, needed to 'unlike' a page that I had 'liked'. I don't know if I'm allowed to directly say what it was, but initially it was a pseudo-biographical page that was a bit of fun set in the city where I grew up.

It has now taken an ignorant, racist, bigoted political stance, includig making inflammatory comments and sharing other disgusting posts from other sites. Some of the comments made by people who follow the page are ... Well, they're awful.

It's frustrating that all I can do is 'unlike'. Facebook gives everyone a stage - even if they really ought not to have one.

threesypeesy Thu 23-May-13 10:56:02

Well said angsanaTree

ParsingFancy Thu 23-May-13 10:56:50

AngsanaTree, maybe you should look at some of the other threads where the same people are indeed "directing their thoughts to his poor family".

This thread - clue in title - is about reactions of hatred on Facebook.

And sadly there have been attacks on two mosques, I think no one injured thank goodness, plus EDL attacks on the police last night.

FunnysInLaJardin Thu 23-May-13 10:57:56

<sigh> Ang It's not about being PC, it's about a hideous violent act perpetrated in the name of religion sparking a whole host of other hideous violent acts and entrenching those bigots views.

BTW you weren't told to leave the UK, just MN!

Buzzardbird Thu 23-May-13 10:58:38

The racist posts that I have reported to fb have been answered as fb don't think they are hate speech. FB is obviously happy with racism and bigotry.

MolotovCocktail Thu 23-May-13 10:58:44

I heard about the attacks on mosques (one was in Kent, right), so reprisal are happening already. Don't people understand that this is the extreme division that terrorist organisations desire?

I repeat that I am agog at the PC brigade on here.

And I repeat, if you don't like it FTFO.

No revenge attacks have happened.

That's patently not true, here. And that's just the beginning, there was an increase in hate crimes aimed at Muslims post 9/11 and 7/7. It's a serious issue.

You may want to direct your thoughts to his poor family instead.

I'll direct my thoughts at ALL the innocent people caught up in this mess.

It's only when you watch the UK from afar that you see the madness and the pickles that you have gotten yourself in with your misguided political correctness.

Yeah, how made the we don't tolerate bigotry and prejudice. Dearie me, what's the world coming to.

Buzzardbird Thu 23-May-13 11:00:28

There actually have been several reprisals and it is only 11 o'clock here in PC land. Try getting your facts straight.

Kendodd Thu 23-May-13 11:00:28

I have heard the English Defence League is planning some sort of march to demonstrate about this attack. EDL against Muslim extremism it think. I'll try to find a link.

I was thinking when I heard this on the radio this morning that if I were Muslim, I think I'd go and join their march. Hopefully completely outnumber them, but with the same message (although not as the EDL intended it to be read). I remember a few years ago there was some sort of 'not in my name' march about Islamic terrorism, and (normal) people not wanting to be tainted by it.

*how 'mad'

Kendodd I love that idea!

Kendodd It's a nice idea but I wouldn't go anywhere near a march of theirs, they have no issue with attacking women and children and most of them will be tanked up on drugs and drink.

Oh, here's proof that they attacked women and babies, one of the attackers was actually a serving soldier AFAIR.

LastTangoInDevonshire Thu 23-May-13 11:06:24

crapswithbears - now that really IS a tolerant non-bigoted post, isn't it? Do you get the irony?

Which post? I've made plenty. If you're talking about my reply to Kendodd though, I stand by it. EDL are mostly extremists and they are well known for their violence.

fromparistoberlin Thu 23-May-13 11:09:25

ANGSANGA "I repeat that I am agog at the PC brigade on here. A poor young soldier has been brutally executed, possibly decapitated and your main concern is your facebook friends offending others.

I hear you.

This morning coming into work I read the article , and I felt like crying on the tube. its awful awful awful angsanga. Of course I care about him

and then I went "whoaaaaa" when I read a a couple of racist comments on FB. Angsanga racism is starting to really rile me. some of the SHIT i hear in my community around local schools/ethnicity etc. some complete stranger even came up to me and moaned about local school, like as I am white and look MC he can spout this shit at me?

as a mother of a child that goes to a VERY mixed school I am concerned that the minute something like this happens it gives people free reign to spout some very islamaphobic comments.

But I shed tears for that poor soldier, and of course I care for him

Dawndonna Thu 23-May-13 11:12:22
AngsanaTree Thu 23-May-13 11:12:53

Yeah, how made the we don't tolerate bigotry and prejudice. Dearie me, what's the world coming to.

Well I would say that you are highly tolerant of bigotry and prejudice and of people who are extremely violent towards British people. If one of these alleged murderers had been picked up last week when he was publicly inciting racial hatred in the high street outside a shop this young man would still be alive. Oh and then we have Abu Qatada.

And I repeat, if you don't like it FTFO
Your classy! Yes I will FTFO when it suits me, not you.

MolotovCocktail Thu 23-May-13 11:14:01

I know that FB wasn't around after 9/11 so it isn't entirely applicable to this thread but, I was at college in 2001 and remember 2 girls (wearing hijabs) being verbally abused using racist language the day after.

I mean, shock confused I saw it happen and the girls were saying that they thought it was awful too; that they'd nothing to do with it.

The perpetrator was just another kid at college - but one who evidently was (and probably still is) racist. I remember us telling this lad to stop, that he was being a twat but it's very frightening to think that - to some people - two grotesque individuals represent an entire group of people.

And who will then act upon their hate (which is precisely what those two individuals did yesterday).

Kendodd Thu 23-May-13 11:16:34

What is going on with all these angry young men in the world?

Could part of the problem be that there just aren't enough women? In that young men form a disproportionately large group in the world population.

OwlLady Thu 23-May-13 11:18:01

I agree with thebody Wed 22-May-13 21:54:50

we do all need to stand together

Well I would say that you are highly tolerant of bigotry and prejudice and of people who are extremely violent towards British people.

And you'd be fucking wrong, but don't let that stop you.

If one of these alleged murderers had been picked up last week when he was publicly inciting racial hatred in the high street outside a shop this young man would still be alive.

And this has what to do with political correctness and anything I have said? Oh, that's right, nothing.

'Oh and then we have Abu Qatada.'

Again, this has nothing to do with political correctness and is not relevant to me because I want him to be deported.

Your classy!

My classy what?

FunnysInLaJardin Thu 23-May-13 11:19:06

it's you're

Angsana
Who is tolerant of Abu Qatada?

The reason he hasn't been deported is because the English Judiciary rightly believe that you can't pick and choose whose human rights you protect. You start eroding human rights because of one noxious individual and then they get chipped away for all of us.

The reason Abu Qatada is still here is because we won't allow our dislike of him to undermine the fundemental importance of our justice system i.e. we won't change what it means to be British to deal with him.

Dawndonna Thu 23-May-13 11:20:21

Anyone who swears is classy Angsana that's the way it is.

Now, in what way is Craps biggoted? Because she put up a link to a bigotted organisation. Because she's spent the whole thread speaking out against it, or are you trying to use some sort of logical fallacy, the strawman fallacy for example?

LtEveDallas Thu 23-May-13 11:20:31

As most of my FB friends are serving or ex soldiers I was bracing myself to have to make numerous deletions. Not because soldiers are inherently racist - they aren't, but because I was expecting the knee-jerk reactions to 'one of their own' being killed.

I am VERY happy to report that almost to a man the posts I have seen have been roundly condemming the incident, professing support and sympathy to the fallen soldier and his family and more importantly blaming the KILLERS, not their religion or race.

Lots of condemnation of the EDL dickheads as well.

I have had to make a few deletions - but they were old school 'friends' and no great loss.

I was worried about backlash, I still am, but I'm very glad to see that it seems I have chosen my friends wisely. What happened yesterday was horrific, but that would be no excuse to let the racists, bigots and wankers win.

MolotovCocktail Thu 23-May-13 11:20:33

Definitely agree that we need to stand together as a nation.

This is a good satirical article about this issue, by the way, for anyone interested.

'The sickening terrorism attack on a soldier in Woolwich has really brought out the caring, tolerant and inclusive sides of society, according to reports this morning.

With numerous calls to ‘send em back’, ‘bomb the hell out of wherever they come from’ or ‘let the people on the street deal with them’, British society is celebrating one of its finest hours.'

RhinestoneCowboy Thu 23-May-13 11:23:48

That poor, young soldier. My thoughts are with him and the tragedy that has befallen his family.

ParsingFancy Thu 23-May-13 11:24:19

Not so tolerant we don't arrest and jail people against whom there is evidence of plotting violent attacks (24 this year, according to MI5 website), Angsa

But the whole point of having a rule of law is that you can't lock people up until they have committed a crime. (Although that's getting bent where there are deportation issues as with Qatada, or indeed legal immigrants).

amazingmumof6 Thu 23-May-13 11:27:08

bit off topic, but has it been confirmed that the victim was a cadet or soldier or neither?

doesn't matter too much, just wondering.

ParsingFancy Thu 23-May-13 11:30:16

Just this moment been confirmed as serving soldier, amazingmum. Name to be released shortly.sad

My thoughts are with his family, friends and colleagues.

PatPig Thu 23-May-13 11:45:50

I think this thread is a little unreasonable.

People in this country are tolerant by world standards. I have been to many countries, and trust me that Britain is extremely tolerant.

That said, people are understandably shocked and disgusted at this event, a side-effect of immigration, which the majority of people in this country when polled, want restricted, and offensive comments on Facebook is definitely progress when compared to reactions to similar events in world history.

gordyslovesheep Thu 23-May-13 11:50:44

they where British

amazingmumof6 Thu 23-May-13 12:03:07

thanks parsing I can't watch news right now

Pigsmummy Thu 23-May-13 12:03:28

The Facebook that you are seeing is yours, your wall, your "friends". Take action if you don't like what you see. Unfriend, or hide their feed and report anything bad.

I have no offensive comments on my wall, there are lots of comments of support and "likes" for the armed forces. My friend (from school) who is in the army and lives in barracks in London has loads of supportive comments from people (like me) whom were concerned for his safety and morale.

lottieandmia Thu 23-May-13 12:09:51

It's all very well to say just unfriend but if it's someone related to you or someone who's been a family friend for 30 years it's not so easy!

lottieandmia Thu 23-May-13 12:11:16

PatPig

Where is your evidence that what happened yesterday is 'a side effect of immigration?' I'm all ears...

Pigsmummy Thu 23-May-13 12:13:21

Their feed then?

Pigsmummy Thu 23-May-13 12:14:42

Sorry I meant, hide their feed and also report anything bad. The reporting is anonymous.

lottieandmia Thu 23-May-13 12:15:20

Yes hiding their feed is the best idea I agree.

fromparistoberlin Thu 23-May-13 12:15:29

I dont think its a side effect of immigration

I think they were mentally ill and got pysched up by a religious cause that gave them (in their heads) permission to brutally murder an innocent man

I dont think anyone who did what they did can have a clean mental bill of health TBH

Bakingnovice Thu 23-May-13 12:28:43

Disgusting what's being said. I was walking home from school with a Muslim mum and a car stopped and the guy got out and started swearing at her. He spat at her. I'm so upset I'm shaking. She's a doctor. Kind giving funny. I could cry. We were both terrified.

Why do I feel like the uk is starting sometimes to feel like pre war Germany?

amazingmumof6 Thu 23-May-13 12:29:38

from mentally ill? hmmm

Buzzardbird Thu 23-May-13 12:33:33

Baking, that is so awful. These idiots have never read a history book.

Filibear Thu 23-May-13 12:35:07

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

everlong Thu 23-May-13 12:37:16

baking that is fucking appalling. Your poor poor friend. sad

Buzzardbird Thu 23-May-13 12:37:27

I tried a post very similar to yours Fili but it seems common sense is being overlooked because everyone wants to blame someone and have a fight.

Filibear Thu 23-May-13 12:38:37

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Needingthework Thu 23-May-13 12:42:02

Your poor friend, baking. I had tears in my eyes reading that. She must be so worried.

No crap has been spouted on my FB news feed, thank goodness, as I would confront them.

RIP to the deceased.

PrincessScrumpy Thu 23-May-13 12:45:27

I've deleted 2 friends (husband and wife) and actually hope they notice and ask why, I'd like the chance to educate them but I doubt it'll help. I'm not surprised unfortunately but didn't have to think twice about deleting.

ICBINEG Thu 23-May-13 12:47:18

You should have more mc friends. Only one person I know on FB has even commented on the whole thing and that was just a neutral comment about how terrible the news was....

ParsingFancy Thu 23-May-13 12:51:10

Chance to post something positive!

Hope Not Hate and the Daily Mirror are creating a wall of images called "No Place for Hate".

"So please send us a photo, a video message or even just a tweet about why there is no place for hate in today’s Britain."

Blueskiesandbuttercups Thu 23-May-13 12:52:09

Hmmm think it says a lot about your friends tbh.

I've had a couple of light a candle posts but absolutely nothing nasty.

I'm choosy who I'm friendly with and only form friendships with nice people.

Shocked at how many horrible people posters are friendly with allegedly having had no idea.hmm

Oh Baking, that is so awful, I hope you and your friend are ok.

cfc Thu 23-May-13 12:55:10

I was just saying to my husband last night that there's been none of that on my FB (nor his, it appears). I read that some MNetters' news feeds were showing such racist opnions from their 'friends'.

I wonder if people were calling for "all the Irish out" during the IRA's campaign of terror? This is a genuine question I am too young to remember, any older MNetter who does remember?

Meddlinkids Thu 23-May-13 12:58:48

The person who brought race and religion in to the argument was the perpetrator.

cfc I remember by mum being abused a few times for being Irish, and a few choice comments came my way for having an Irish mum. I don't remember anything to this extent though, but possibly because my parents did largely try to shield me.

cfc Thu 23-May-13 13:10:09

I must ask my mum when I speak with her later, I didn't think of that (duh!). We're from Co Kerry but have lived over here since I was in primary school.

Unforunately the most shit I've had re: the whole IRA/United Ireland thing has been from guys in Ireland who hear my accent now...sigh.

flippinada Thu 23-May-13 13:10:20

A few posts have mentioned that they haven't seen anything like this on social media and people need to be more careful about who they have as friends on FB.

A couple of points -just because you don't see it doesn't mean the comments aren't there - and while you might be sure nobody you know would say those things, somebody is saying them. There are racist comments all over social media at the moment.

Secondly, You're (general you're) right of course that people should be careful about who they befriend, but you can't stop friends of friends posting their opinions, done if which might be offensive
Also, if you're a bit slack about your security settings, anyone could see and comment on posts you make.

Needingthework Thu 23-May-13 13:14:44

I agree about friends of friends, flippinada. I blocked a friend of a friend who was spouting utter crap about setting fire to travellers once. So glad I did, as he has probably gone into overdrive over yesterday's events...

I woke this morning to find two of my friends 'liked' the EDL page sad Deleted straight away as I can now assume we have absolutely nothing in common.

Buzzardbird Thu 23-May-13 13:43:24

Oh dear god, I will never sleep again sad

PatPig Thu 23-May-13 13:44:30

Lottie, Woolwich is an area with a lot of immigration. Islam has come to the UK as a result of immigration. The perpetrators hare are of Nigerian descent.

There are lots of Nigerians in Woolwich. It is the credit card fraud capital of Europe, because of Nigerian immigration (news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8193884.stm).

No doubt that most Nigerian immigrants are lovely, but on the other hand people might reasonably say 'Why do we have to have this immigration at all? I didn't vote for this. 50 years ago this was a Cockney area. I don't like it now. What has happened?'

flippinada Thu 23-May-13 13:47:53

Baking that is just awful. Your poor friend.

flippinada Thu 23-May-13 13:55:06

PatPig according to BBC news, one of the perpetrators was bought up in a devout Christian family and converted to Islam in 2001.

Not able to link from my phone, but it's on a report linked from the front page on the bbc news site if you (or indeed anyone reading) is interested.

difficultultimatum Thu 23-May-13 13:58:51

YANBU

I have thinned out my friends list today

FunnysInLaJardin Thu 23-May-13 14:03:17

Craps thats a great article and I have shared to my FB page

gordyslovesheep Thu 23-May-13 14:05:27

PaiPig they are BRITISH not immigrants

My father is not British - please do explain to me how me and my children are Immigrants

cory Thu 23-May-13 14:09:48

"No doubt that most Nigerian immigrants are lovely, but on the other hand people might reasonably say 'Why do we have to have this immigration at all? I didn't vote for this. 50 years ago this was a Cockney area. I don't like it now. What has happened?'"

It doesn't occur to them that if there are second generation Nigerians in Britain, this might just be to do with Nigeria having been a British colony until 1960?

This immigrant bashing is really irritating me, especially since the men are not immigrants. They are British. Pointing that out to people seems futile, however, you'll get branded as an extremist sympathiser, or accused of 'missing the point'.

I've given up tbh, you can't talk sense into people.

ParsingFancy Thu 23-May-13 14:15:06

Shh, Cory, don't go telling people Facts. You'll pop their comfortable, inward-reflecting bubble.

cory Thu 23-May-13 14:15:37

They are British, with ancestors from a former British colony in Africa and one of them at least was brought up a Christian. You can see how this situation just needs to be resolved by sending everybody back to the Middle East. confused

Moominsarehippos Thu 23-May-13 14:18:40

Has anyone else noticed a lot more police/support teams on the streets today? I have.

lottieandmia Thu 23-May-13 14:19:18

I'm getting sick of the immigration bashing as well - PatPig I think your posts are nonsense. You are essentially saying we wouldn't have any problems with crime or violence if immigration didn't happen. Can you not see how ridiculous that is?

I was British in Italy during the Heysel Stadium tragedy. We were bullied, scared, told to lie and say we were Australian or American. I was a child who BTW supported Juventus. I saw 'British go home' graffiti. It's scary and horrible and that was an isolated incident.

Moominsarehippos Thu 23-May-13 14:23:11

I work 'in religion' and find that converts or born agains (usually after having a lovely wild time in their youigh before finding god) can often hold the most extreme views.

amazingmumof6 Thu 23-May-13 14:23:28

Patpig - we all come from Africa originally. scientific fact.

so what if they are of Nigarian decent?
I do not see your point.

KRITIQ Thu 23-May-13 14:23:37

This is part of what I put on the News thread about the crap on social media -

I think sadly there are alot of folks out there who do harbour racist, Islamaphobic and other bigoted views, even if they don't broadcast the fact all the time. They are on the "alert" for examples that support their views because these give them a sort of "permission" to be more candid in talking about what they believe. I certainly don't believe that today, thousands of folks suddenly turned into bigots because of one (albeit terrible) murder. The incident has simply flushed them out from their cover and because they are hearing/seeing so many voices that concur with theirs, they feel more emboldened in their bigotry.

I'm also quite sick of everyone crying that Muslims aren't or aren't doing enough to condemn what happened "in their name." Funnily enough, I haven't heard anyone insisting white English people need to do more to condemn the EDL for throwing bottles and stones at the police last night - which they claimed to do in the name of (get this) white English people!

If you get a chance, look at the twitter feed for @Fatihah_Iman. She's apologising for everything from formerly being a Catholic to her dad being a Tory, just showing up how stupid these calls are that effectively hold Muslims accountable for stuff that has nowt to do with them. Because those who ask do so to berate and scapegoat, nothing they say or do will ever be enough anyhow.

PatPig Thu 23-May-13 14:25:41

Cory, there are obviously reasons why we have many Pakistani immigrants in this country but not many Moroccans, for example, whereas in Holland, it is the other way round.

But that's hardly relevant to the 'man on the street' who is unhappy with the change to his neighbourhood.

Fllippinada, when I lived in an area that was historically Christian, in a Muslim country, in-country migration resulted in many people converting to Islam. In this case, I'm quite confident that the impetus for people to convert to Islam has come as a result of immigration. There is no significant White British Muslim community.

Gordy people born in the UK in many cases retain a specific non-British identity. For instance, British Chinese people, though speaking with a British accent, may retain strong ties to China. In the case of British-born men of Nigerian descent living in Woolwich, the identity is not specifically British, but British and Nigerian, since there are numerous Nigerian shops, restaurants, new Nigerian immigrants, and so on in the area.

Few White British people would know what fufu is, but I would imagine that nearly all British Nigerian people do. I know lots of people of immigrant background, they have British passports, but they also retain an immigrant identity, and proudly so.

That doesn't mean however that you can say 'ah but they were born in Britain'. Yes they were, but many things about them are of immigrant origin. Not bad or good, but White British people in these areas may say, 'actually I prefer things how they were'.

MonstersDontCry Thu 23-May-13 14:26:55

It amazes me how ignorant some people are. My facebook is full of racists rants, it actually sickens me.

FloralPuddles Thu 23-May-13 14:29:48

This thread is strange! People seem to be running to post here every time they are 'forced' to delete someone off facebook? I don't get it?

I see a lot people saying in this thread that they wished that they could say/write/reply something to those on facebook, well why don't you? wouldn't that be more constructive then posting on mumsnet of how annoyed you are at someone's facebook posting? is it not a little strange to be checking in here every time the delete button gets hit on FB?

Oh and its never a good idea to post what you put as your status on fb on a very public mumsnet, I am sure your intention was to show how 'NON-bigoted' you are but it also outed to you ;)

FloralPuddles Thu 23-May-13 14:30:41

Apologies for the typos. Fat fingers!

Chipstick10 Thu 23-May-13 14:31:38

Floral puddles you beat me to it, was going to post exactly the same thing, but you put it so much better than I would've done.

PatPig Thu 23-May-13 14:31:41

lottieandmia, of course we would have crime without immigration. However there are certain crimes that are associated with immigration.

For instance, without immigrants, there would be no smuggling of bushmeat to the UK.

That's just an example.

Another example is that in countries like Iceland, where there are almost no Muslims, they have no Islamist attacks.

That's not to say that Muslim immigration is bad, it's just that the connection between the group that is 'other' and the crime they commit is obvious and people say 'hang on a minute why are they even here?'

That's a perfectly natural reaction for people to have, and denying that there's any connection is not helpful in my view, because people can see it with their own eyes and hear it with their own ears, so when you say 'ah but football supporters are also violent', people see that as obfuscation, frankly.

A fact about immigration is that where a particular group is associated with a particular crime that becomes more conspicuous, than if it was a crime committed by the majority (white British) population.

lottieandmia Thu 23-May-13 14:33:25

FP - I have posted counter arguments on facebook.

I think the reason people post about it is because you can know someone and they seem nice and normal until something like this happens and you realise actually they're a bigot and it's depressing.

To be 'non-bigoted' is nothing to brag about - it's how we should all be!

eminemmerdale Thu 23-May-13 14:35:35

The EDL are planning a march on the 27th apparently.

FloralPuddles Thu 23-May-13 14:38:02

I am sorry lottie but this thread really is coming across as a bragging, back-slapping and congratulatory love-in for all those that are 'forced' to delete people off facebook with an obligatory sigh!

Strange.

lottieandmia Thu 23-May-13 14:40:04

I see it differently Fp - what is there to brag about? Some people have a disgusting attitude and for those of us who have to put up with it from people we know well is annoying.

Why do you object to people posting about things they find annoying? It happens all over this site

lottieandmia Thu 23-May-13 14:42:26

The point is PatPig, that there shouldn't be connections between crimes like this and religion because in reality no religion supports such a thing.

Your posts are sounding racist 'this doesn't happen in Iceland because there are no muslims'.

The fact is that people who commit crimes like this are murdering psychopaths who use religion as an excuse.

propertyNIGHTmareBEFOREXMAS Thu 23-May-13 14:42:56

Yanbu. It is sickening.

flippinada Thu 23-May-13 14:44:19

I get the impression this will be dismissed out of hand anyway, but why on earth would anyone immigrate to the UK and then convert to Islam, if that isn't their religion?

Converting to Christianity would surely make more sense, as the UK is predominantly a Christian country.

gordyslovesheep Thu 23-May-13 14:46:11

yes I have duel identity Patpig but I am BRITISH - if I committed a crime would you also blame immigration

Chipstick10 Thu 23-May-13 14:46:39

Such sweeping statements from people about others who are expressing things the way they see it. I'm not keen on over camp men, does that make me homophobic?

PatPig Thu 23-May-13 14:46:40

How is it racist to say that Islamist attacks do not occur where there no Muslims? It is a statement of the obvious.

That doesn't mean that there are no murders in Iceland of course.

Also religion clearly does support this, people do not get inspired by photography, or chess, or whatever, to do this. The majority of religious people do not follow this interpretation, but there are justifications for such acts to be found within religion, even though there are statements saying that acts are unjustifiable too - some people go for the extremist interpretation.

People can genuinely surprise you. I thought I knew the woman who last night shared an EDL rant, along her rather extreme views on why England should stay white. She'd never said anything to me about her views on multiculturalism or immigration, her child has played with my mixed-race child, she's never raised an eyebrow at my partner's race. She's never condemned our mutual friends' religion.

Until last night. Because she was among other facebook friends who were equally as outraged and doing the same, she felt completely at ease with her views and didn't care who saw them. I had absolutely no idea. Maybe she'll regret it in a week when it's died down a little, who knows.

FloralPuddles Thu 23-May-13 14:47:26

I do not object to people posting about things they find annoyin, I have never said that. I do though find it very strange that it looks like people are running to post here every time they delete someone, they "wish they could say something to that person" but they don't, they delete then tell mumsnet/ the world that they have! I don't object, not at all its just strange.

People are copying and pasting status's into this very public thread, so whilst they won't actually say on FB what they really think to those they are forced to delete, they are instead outing themselves on here. Lots and lots of people read mumsnet without ever signing up.

cfc Thu 23-May-13 14:47:43

I disagree Floral, I feel it's coming across as peeps saying "omg, tihs has certainly flushed some of the less-desireables out of the fb woodwork" not so much self-congratulatory.

However, I've been skim reading with a feeding (biting) baby and a pair of fighting elders...!!

Typos = fat fingers too.

lottieandmia Thu 23-May-13 14:48:23

'White British people in these areas may say, 'actually I prefer things how they were'.'

So, how WERE things 'before' PatPig?

FloralPuddles Thu 23-May-13 14:49:27

I forgot a 'G' on one of my words! Mumsnet needs an edit button!

Dawndonna Thu 23-May-13 14:50:16

Patpig has a degree in obfuscation.

Floral and friends, yep we're a smug bunch of self congratulatory non bigots. Do you feel better for letting us all know that?

lottieandmia Thu 23-May-13 14:50:21

'How is it racist to say that Islamist attacks do not occur where there no Muslims?'

Because real muslims don't have anything to do with terrorism FFS

lottieandmia Thu 23-May-13 14:52:53

Anyone who says 'white british people think' has BNP leanings imo.........reminds me of daftpunk.

ballinacup Thu 23-May-13 14:54:32

Speak for yourself Floral, I have just told a 'friend' in no uncertain terms what I think of her 'Islamophobic and proud' status. And that is that's she's not islamophobic, she's a fucking racist and should identify as such. I've also pointed out that as she's so keen to remove 'non English ppl frm Engerland' then she'll be happily waving her Irish traveller boyfriend off from Liverpool.

Chipstick10 Thu 23-May-13 14:55:11

Whose fault is it that some ill informed white British people or others, believe that all Muslims think the way the two mentalists yesterday do? Whose fault is it that people believe that it's what Islam stands for? Whose job is it to educate people. And why do they believe it?

OwlLady Thu 23-May-13 14:55:24

well i am white and British and I share none of Patpigs views, thanks

PatPig Thu 23-May-13 14:56:08

flippinada, I don't agree that the UK is a 'Christian country'.

There are many Muslim countries, where people's behaviour, dress, and so on are required to conform with (a particular interpretation of) Islam. That isn't the case in the UK, and I don't see that Christianity is a significant influence on the behaviour of all but a small minority of the population.

Here's a video, from the US, on what you could definitely call a 'Jewish area'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FEKhgBye5K0#t=114s

It's easy to see the presence of people who are conspicuously Jewish, there is a private Jewish security force on hand, and so on.

In the UK there are clearly 'Muslim areas', particularly if you are a member of a particular ethnic group.

I wouldn't be surprised if for certain ethnic groups (not White British), there are also 'Christian areas' in terms of immigrant churches, I believe witchcraft abuse cases are associated with African Christians in the UK.

However immigrating to Woolwich is really comparable to the Bible Belt of the US, any more I suppose than the Bible Belt of the US is comparable to the Jewish area above.

cory Thu 23-May-13 14:57:20

flippinada Thu 23-May-13 14:44:19
"I get the impression this will be dismissed out of hand anyway, but why on earth would anyone immigrate to the UK and then convert to Islam, if that isn't their religion?

Converting to Christianity would surely make more sense, as the UK is predominantly a Christian country."

Their parents came from a country with a large Christian population to which they belonged. Many black young men have converted to Islam because they feel uncomfortable with the history of Christianity and feel more accepted within Islam.

lottieandmia Thu 23-May-13 14:57:32

Chipstick - if people are too stupid and ignorant not to be racist then it is entirely THEIR own fault and their responsibility to stop being an offensive twat.

lottieandmia Thu 23-May-13 14:59:15

PatPig, answer my question please. How 'were' things 'before'?? Before what happened?

cory Thu 23-May-13 14:59:42

lottieandmia Thu 23-May-13 14:48:23
"'White British people in these areas may say, 'actually I prefer things how they were'.'

So, how WERE things 'before' PatPig?"

She might be thinking about the time before Pope Gregory sent those bloody Italian immigrants along. grin

Moominsarehippos Thu 23-May-13 15:00:27

Maybe the Norman Conquests. It was much more peaceful here then...

Moominsarehippos Thu 23-May-13 15:01:11

Continental shift?

Dawndonna Thu 23-May-13 15:03:04

My Grandmother was white and british. She was also an illegal immigrant for thirty odd years, because she was from Gibraltar.

flippinada Thu 23-May-13 15:05:26

That's interesting cory thanks.

Chipstick10 Thu 23-May-13 15:05:43

What a ridiculous response. You really don't think people need educating?!! I'm shocked. So you would agree that young disenfranchised Muslims don't need educating either then? People very much need educating. It's ridiculous to say well people are too stupid and ignorant. It's up to all of us, including Muslims to stand up and educate people on the real meaning of Islam and not what we are getting fed by the lunatics taking over the asylum.

PatPig Thu 23-May-13 15:07:15

'So, how WERE things 'before' PatPig?'

Well for instance, 30+ years ago, schools in East London were almost 100% white British.

Photos for proof: www.friendsreunited.co.uk/woodford-county-high-school/b/136949ac-26b9-4ced-8717-b11355010356

If you look at the stats for today, that same school is now 80% Asian, 6% white British, and only 29% of children have English as their first language.

That is what it is, and there is no judgement attached to that, but obviously it does reflect a complete transformation of an area, which many people would not welcome, since the previous communities do not exist. Yes there are new communities, which may be 'better' or 'worse', but people generally will lament that which is lost.

lottieandmia Thu 23-May-13 15:09:37

Chipstick - if people want to be educated then they can access plenty of information which shows their position to be wrong and misguided. But some people don't want to stop being racist, hense the 'I'm sick of the PC' brigade.

I will say it again. Muslims have nothing to do with terrorism. The people who commit crimes like this are lying about their 'reasoning' or possibly have untreated MH conditions.

cory Thu 23-May-13 15:10:06

Anders Breivik claimed that one of his motivations was that traditional Christian values were undermined. So this seems like one lot of murders that wouldn't have happened if Christianity hadn't been brought to Norway. And where did those foreign religionists come from? Ah yes, England.

flippinada Thu 23-May-13 15:11:13

Oh right. According to the 2011 census, the majority of people in the UK who identify as being religious describe themselves as Christian.

lottieandmia Thu 23-May-13 15:12:17

'Well for instance, 30+ years ago, schools in East London were almost 100% white British..........there is no judgement attached to that'

Yeah right - what you are saying is that it's reasonable for people to want the UK to be 100% white British.

And your posts are not racist? FYI they sound like BNP literature to me...

vivizone Thu 23-May-13 15:14:10

Sigh it's all getting so tedious now. A man I used to work with has just like and commented on his brother's status which says:

Islam should be banned from every non-Islamic country. Our hard earned taxes are now paying people to cut peoples heads off. First Aeroplanes then Trains and now the general public. This attack will not be the first now, the cunts will now turn this into an olympic sport. Every cunt will be at it chopping peoples heads off. This Goverment should be be fucking ashamed of thereselves and fucking grow a pair. Bring on the riots, the Goverment will soon come to a standstill. Dont care who i offend but fuck Religion and you can stick it up your arse. RIP to the man who lost his life today!

I keep saying I will avoid FB today but I am like a moth to a flame!

I must admit, I couldn't sleep for thinking about the deceased yesterday. What his family must be going through. I also thought about life. How one minute you're walking somewhere, then poof, just gone.

I was also really scared (silly I know) and kept seeing the murderer's bloody hands each time I tried to sleep.

ATJabberwocky Thu 23-May-13 15:15:01

YANBU,

it resulted in a de-friending of many bigots

unfortunately the family members who uttered the same things will just resulting in biting my tongue and taking a deep breath

Flicktheswitch Thu 23-May-13 15:15:02

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FloralPuddles Thu 23-May-13 15:15:24

if people are too stupid and ignorant not to be racist then it is entirely THEIR own fault and their responsibility to stop being an offensive twat.

Whoa! Are you serious? So instead of taking the opportunity of challenging a persons misguided view and maybe, just maybe as a result educating a person with towards a more truthful and right way to think about what was a a gruesome crime, you write them off? How do they stop being a twat if no one shows them how?!

cory Thu 23-May-13 15:16:18

I don't see this thing about communities being lost because a certain percentage of the population has a different skin colour. If people stayed the same colour, would we have the same community as our grandparents remember? Of course not. It's a different age. Things were always going to change, people move in and out of an area, nobody who gets to middle age will live the life they lived as they lived as a child.

The village community I remember from childhood was very Christian, teetotal, very conservative in their life. When I go back and talk to the younger generation, they might as well be a different culture. But the only immigrant is the same one who was there 40 years ago.

LastTangoInDevonshire Thu 23-May-13 15:16:20

You're all banging your heads against a brick wall because it doesn't matter whether you scream 'racist' or shout 'bigot' - it is STILL what people think and those people (judging by how many people each of you say you have deleted from Facebook) are in the majority.

PatPig Thu 23-May-13 15:16:55

"Yeah right - what you are saying is that it's reasonable for people to want the UK to be 100% white British."

That's not what I said.

I said it is natural to feel some regret at change. In this case, the change, in certain areas - not across the country as a whole - has been fundamental.

amazingmumof6 Thu 23-May-13 15:19:00

vivi and now you are quoting it...and so it spreads.

flick best post. end of thread

getyourheadout Thu 23-May-13 15:19:28

ATJabberwocky why didnt you delete ALL of the people who you class as bigots ?

Eh, the schools in east London 30 years ago were mostly Not 100% British. The east end has been full of immigrants like my grandparents (Poland and Dutch Jews) for the past 150 yrs or so....

I have been kicking arse on Facebook - hopefully a virtual twatting will shake some of these people up as most of them are just unthinking idiots rather than active racists.

Also got going on the blog - why aren't Fathers 4 Justice labelled as terrorists every time a man murders his children?

lottieandmia Thu 23-May-13 15:23:56

'it is natural to feel some regret at change'

Why?

Meddlinkids Thu 23-May-13 15:26:58

Those of you whose FB feeds are filling up with this uneducated foul drivel - they do say you can tell a great deal about someone by the company they keep wink.

Not had to delete a single friend on mine but then, I don't share friendspace with thick bigots.

Chipstick10 Thu 23-May-13 15:29:21

Believe it or not immigration is a massive concern to a great many of the people in this country, and that isn't confined to white British either. It's a fact, that's why ukip are on the rise. People often make remarks about immigration, it doesn't make them racist no matter how much you scream bigot at someone. People feel uneasy, and frightened and threatened. They feel there services are under pressure and they want to debate it without the Gillian Duffy effect. My sil is the only white face in her road. She feels isolated, does that make her a racist? Some people need to grow up and stop making people feel scared to air their views. Doesn't make pat pig a racist.

Spice17 Thu 23-May-13 15:30:59

YANBU.

I'm no leftie but some people's comments have been disgusting. I've had to stop myself angrily responding to several (without thinking first) and instead stated my position on it, including the line ' It's hard to see the 'Fuck off back to where you came from' stuff considering my Great Granddad was a Black man coming to live in the UK many, many years ago'.

Have had a few contrite people commenting, including relations but now mostly think they're ignorant pricks!

HeffalumpTheFlump Thu 23-May-13 15:31:21

I have to agree that deleting these people isn't going to help in any way. They probably won't notice and if they do probably won't connect it with their horrible comments. It all seems a bit pointless.

PatPig Thu 23-May-13 15:33:53

IME, in respect of middle class people, non-white people are much more opposed to immigration, and more likely to say 'X race/group is bad', than white people are.

amazingmumof6 Thu 23-May-13 15:35:05

lottie change can be scary?

Just a little bit boggled at the people bleating that this is a particularly awful crime because 'our soldiers should be safe.'

Erm, part of the job description of being a soldier is that you risk getting killed. Your job involves killing other people who will be trying to kill you. Of course this doesn't mean it's acceptable that this poor squaddie was murdered in the street by a couple of nutters (who apparently may have been crackheads, as well) - but it is just another illustration of how profoundly stupid some people are.

gordyslovesheep Thu 23-May-13 15:50:10

no they are not Patpig - that's rot

cory Thu 23-May-13 15:55:54

Am a little puzzled by these references to an all white London of yesteryear. So who lived in Victorian Chinatown then? And the lascars that feature in Victorian literature- were they a figment of the writers' imagination?

plainjaney Thu 23-May-13 15:58:15

I deleted most of DH's family a few months back, his sister actually started it with one of the wonderful Daily Mail meme's of "IMIGRANTS CLAIM BENIFITS AND OAPS GET NUFFINK".
That started the ball rolling really and while I was at it I culled about 20 people who shared the same views including my SIL and BIL.

As I pointed out on Facebook at the time I don't have anything in common with someone who thinks like that so it's pointless keeping you on my friends list.

It probably is pointless and ignorant people tend to remain just that, but its my Facebook and I don't want to read a timeline full of vitriol, hatred and half truths so I just keep deleting them smile

needaholidaynow Thu 23-May-13 15:59:57

I agree but then again someone on my FB said the soldier shouldn't have been wearing a Help for Heroes t-shirt anyway.

This comment didn't half piss me off! For every bigot that calls "all Muslims terrorists", there is a stupid do gooder lurking around too!

You want to follow the Islamic faith, Hindu faith, Jewish faith, etc.. etc.. good for you, I am a Christian.

I won't tell you to get out of "my country", but you'll just have to put up with how we roll over here. It's a multicultural society.

And as for soldiers being murderers. Eye for an eye and all that shit. PLEASE.

PatPig Thu 23-May-13 16:00:08

London was not 'all white'. Chinatown is and was a very small area.

It was however 'white British' in character. It is not today.

For example, over the last 10 years, almost half of the white British people several parts of London left the area. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21511904

FloralPuddles Thu 23-May-13 16:00:55

Solid:

Erm, part of the job description of being a soldier is that you risk getting killed. Your job involves killing other people who will be trying to kill you.

He hardly stood a fair chance yesterday did he?! Unarmed and unassuming walking down a street before being hacked to death. He could hardly try and do his 'job' in return!

No one I have come across have 'bleated' that its a "a particularly awful crime because 'our soldiers should be safe.'" I think in actual fact what people are trying to convey but struggling to find the words for is that ANYONE should be able to walk down the street without fear of attacked with a machete and maybe this feels so shocking because we are use to hearing of the sad deaths of our service men and women serving abroad, it wasn't expected whilst minding his own business walking up a London street. Nothing as macabre as this was expected to ever of happened to anyone.

SarahAndFuck Thu 23-May-13 16:07:54

Floral - I agree 100%.

Just will repeat and add I think in actual fact what people are trying to convey but struggling to find the words for is that ANYONE should be able to walk down the street without fear of attacked with a machete just because of the job they do

They sign up knowing they might have to fight, might have to take lives, might lose their own. But nobody signs up to be run down in the street and butchered. That's not part of anybody's job description.

needaholidaynow Thu 23-May-13 16:09:11

They sign up knowing they might have to fight, might have to take lives, might lose their own. But nobody signs up to be run down in the street and butchered. That's not part of anybody's job description.

Thank you!

PatPig Thu 23-May-13 16:10:39

Also you don't know what this soldier's remit/job was. Not all soldiers are in positions where loss of life is an above average risk, cf. say driving a bus.

FloralPuddles Thu 23-May-13 16:13:53

*SarahAndFuck

They sign up knowing they might have to fight, might have to take lives, might lose their own. But nobody signs up to be run down in the street and butchered. That's not part of anybody's job description.*

I agree with the other poster; thank you!

gordyslovesheep Thu 23-May-13 16:14:47

Patpig you do get that you can be British and not be white don't you?

FloralPuddles Thu 23-May-13 16:15:45

patpig that's actually a very valid point!

I say again, I have heard no 'bleating' and actually find that insinuation pretty ignorant.

Chipstick10 Thu 23-May-13 16:28:03

What an ignorant thing to say, re a soldiers job description. As has already been stated.
Agree floral. Am struggling to comprehend the savagery shown toward that poor soldier.

ChocolateCakePlease Thu 23-May-13 16:32:50

"Erm, part of the job description of being a soldier is that you risk getting killed. Your job involves killing other people who will be trying to kill you. Of course this doesn't mean it's acceptable that this poor squaddie was murdered in the street by a couple of nutters (who apparently may have been crackheads, as well) - but it is just another illustration of how profoundly stupid some people are."

I find your post very upsetting and insensitive as you are clearly not someone who has ever lost a loved one in the Armed Forces. Show a bit of compassion for christ sake this man was the VICTIM of an unprovoked attack in the street whilst unarmed in broad daylight.

Yes his job involves the risk of being killed but that doesn't make people stupid for being appauled that this man was killed in the street because of the job he does.

Just imagine if this were your son, husband, brother - would you be saying "oh well he is a soldier so his job carries the risk of being killed so it's stupid to think it's shocking he was killed in a London street because his job risks being killed anyway." angry

ChocolateCakePlease Thu 23-May-13 16:35:46

I am annoyed with the papers for printing what the killer said because they have played into their hands by printing a message that the killers want everyone to hear/read.

OwlLady Thu 23-May-13 16:52:05

I agree with chocolatecake, I also think it's a bit strange the emphasis is on the evil that is religion without acknowledging that at least 2 of the three women who intervened to sit with the murdered man/calm the other were religious too hmm confused

FunnysInLaJardin Thu 23-May-13 16:52:41

gordy I don't think it actually matters to some that a black person can also be British. The main thing is that some communities would like to see all their neighbours have white skin, whether they are British doesn't really matter, as long as they look the same and don't frighten them. The ethnicity thing is a total red herring. Some folk are just plain racists.

wintertimeisfun Thu 23-May-13 16:53:31

patpig i am curious but what is your point about the jewish youtube video? confused

Chipstick10 Thu 23-May-13 16:55:54

And some people don't like white faces and are plain racist it's a two way street.

McNewPants2013 Thu 23-May-13 16:58:31

I have been on a deleting spree today, I am not racist and I don't want racist people on my account.

PatPig Thu 23-May-13 17:05:29

Wintertimeisfun, I was just trying to demonstrate what might be considered a Christian/Jewish/Muslim area, as opposed to what we have in the UK which is a vague professed allegiance to a wishy-washy faith.

wintertimeisfun Thu 23-May-13 17:31:19

nah, patpig you directed MN posters to a youtube video of a twat who happened to be a jew being an arse. i don't see what the fuck that twat has to do with this post. i had to turn it off half way through as it made me cringe. he is being an arse, WTF confused connecting it to this post

Chipstick10 Thu 23-May-13 17:55:41

Well said ajmal masoor from the muslim committee. Lets here more from him.

PatPig Thu 23-May-13 17:56:52

Well yes he was a twat, as are many people, but I was more thinking about the group of what are apparently private police, of very similar appearance, who turn up to lend a hand. It's quite intimidating, and makes it clear that the area is a Jewish area, specifically, rather than just another suburb.

wintertimeisfun Thu 23-May-13 18:03:23

i didn't watch the whole thing so i don't know what you are talking about. jewish thugs who come and 'sort out' non jews?? i'd like to see that smile

infamouspoo Thu 23-May-13 18:10:20

Well for instance, 30+ years ago, schools in East London were almost 100% white British.'

What? In the 70's and 80's? No they werent. Thats where I grew up and I was a teenager in the 80's and I can assure you the East End wasnt 100% white British by a long chalk.

Tilly333 Thu 23-May-13 18:10:39

just defriended a couple of people on FB with pics of Enoch Powell and past quotations etc and all of their friends agreeing with the posting etc... It's when you think you know someone and then something like this happens you realise you don't really know them at all!

there are a lot of bad people everywhere... in every religion all over the world. Yesterday a dispicable thing happened, tomorrow, somewhere in the world, another act will happen that we won't even hear about... please let's not tar every person with the same brush, and lets hope that these people are a minority.

I was utterly horrified to find out today that a close friend of mine is islamaphobic. We had a long talk, but it rocked my world sad I hope she has a different view point now.

grimbletart Thu 23-May-13 18:33:09

Well, this thread just illustrates 1) how easily what those nutters yesterday wanted to happen can happen - people set against people
2) And Facebook is serious shite that I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole.

Misspixietrix Thu 23-May-13 19:02:24

OP I see your point. i was torn between simply deleting or commenting. I usually ignore and report but it exploded across my timeline that much I had to comment. However, I point blank refused to share the Video and asked people to take it down. Not because it might have offended someone but my gosh! that poor mans' family! sad, I actually pointed out to my Sister would you not be cross if something had happened to your Ds and you found out like that?

I digress slightly but did anyone who is on twitter who saw the immediate reports see them saying the man was shouting "god is good" Initially before they then reported Alluhu Akbar (sp)?
Forgive my Ignorance but do they both mean the same thing?

Midlifecrisisarefun Thu 23-May-13 19:10:44

Unfortunately, some people will take more convincing than a facebook 'defriending' to point out that they are wrong. I know a lot of people with these views, mainly 40 plus age group, and the nutters who commit atrocities in the 'name' of their religious beliefs are handing them their 'arguments' on a plate. I have refused to engage as their views are entrenched.

ChocolateCakePlease Thu 23-May-13 20:07:01

Everyone is entitled to a view though aren't they. No one is ever going to agree with everyone elses view point and we don't have to accept or like everyone just like not everyone around the world accepts or likes us. The world is like that because everyone is different, has different beliefs and tolorances and this whole "we must agree, accept, like everyone" is nonsense.

Midlifecrisisarefun Thu 23-May-13 20:23:22

The fact that there is this thread and others because there is so much being posted on social networking suggests that there are huge numbers of people with strong anti immigrant, anti muslim views. Like it or not, we will not convince them otherwise. The FB postings would have disappeared without a trace otherwise and we would not be on here.
I work in job with people from very mixed backgrounds and a lot of the fb postings were being replicated in the staff room today.
These are people who will most likely vote in elections for UKIP as an electable option due to their stance on further immigration. They do know that BNP won't get anywhere!
Cameron has said today that the terrorists want to divide us, I think its rather like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.

Two small children were hacked to death by their own father a couple of days ago. He was white. Six children were burned to death by their own father last year. He was white. Two women a week are killed by their partners though I'm not sure of the racial/ethnic breakdown of domestic violence. It seems to be a lot more acceptable to start talking racist drivel when something as unusual as this murder takes place, than it is to point out that there is a massive ongoing problem with violent men.

Chipstick10 Thu 23-May-13 21:38:44

There was a member of the Muslim council on sky news today. His name was ajmal masoor. He has some very good points to make. He made my heart sing with his need and want for unity and his own hatred of extremists. I do think we need to see more of this from the Muslim community. They need to be vocal in their condemnation. Of course everyone has a part to play to try and defeat these nutters in out midst but the Muslim community must be more vocal. It's the only way.

seeker Thu 23-May-13 21:40:59

And there's this which I have posted several times today, but which has been largely ignored, because it's doesn't fit the narrative.......

ChocolateCakePlease Thu 23-May-13 21:42:55

The thing that pisses me off is if this were two white men who had done this to a black soldier all hell would break out and it would be called a racist murder. When it is the other way around people have to list every white man known to earth who has ever committed murder to try and prove some point at how bad white people are. Either way the white person is never the victim. Solidbrass in the post above proves this - overlooking the fact in this case this was a potentially a racist, religious motivated attack by two black muslim men because white men have murdered too so it is ok.

seeker Thu 23-May-13 21:47:26

Chocolatecake- might I suggest you rad the thread?

ChocolateCakePlease Thu 23-May-13 21:51:11

You see, you have done it too seeker. A white man can never be a victim like this soldier because somehow people always have to link to a case where the white guy has been the bad guy, almost trying to defend the black mens actions against this poor man.

If seekers link were what this thread were about I wonder how many people would be doing links to murders by white christians or how many black murders they would be listing? None. Because they would be branded as racist.

IneedAyoniNickname Thu 23-May-13 21:52:34

Chocolatecake, if it had been 2 white men murdering a black soldier, people would have said "oh how awful, nasty racists. Glad not all white men are like that"
Which is the point. An entire religion is being vilified and condemned for the actions of 2 extremists. Look at seekers link.

Seeker I looked at the link earlier, and was shocked that I hadn't seen it in the news! It's a tragedy, but of course no one cares as he was 'just' a Muslim sad I actually mentioned it to a friend this morning, and she said "yea but he wasn't a soldier was he" Oh, so its ok to murder an innocent man then, as long as he's not a soldier confused

flippinada Thu 23-May-13 21:55:24

Have you read seekers link ChocolateCake?

If not, I'll summarise it for you. Elderly man stabbed in the back on his way home from praying. National outrage, right? What kind of scum could do that?

His murderer still hasn't been caught.

seeker Thu 23-May-13 21:57:08

Chocolatecake- have you stopped to think why the case I linked to didn't even make the main news programmes, but the awful crime committed in Woolwich was round the world twice in 10 minute?

D0oinMeCleanin Thu 23-May-13 21:57:24

ChocolateCake, you are missing the point entirely.

Yes, the men in question, claim to have been motivated by religion but is that the fault of an entire religion, as many FB comments would have you believe, or is it the fault of two, disturbed extremists?

When Breivik massacred people in Norway, as an 'anti islamic' terror act, was that the fault of Christianity?

WineNot Thu 23-May-13 21:59:02

seeker - why do you think it did?

flippinada Thu 23-May-13 22:00:32

"Chocolatecake- have you stopped to think why the case I linked to didn't even make the main news programmes, but the awful crime committed in Woolwich was round the world twice in 10 minute?"

Yes, this, exactly.

Chipstick10 Thu 23-May-13 22:00:58

Because the butchering yesterday was on another level. Because it went to the heart of the British people, of our freedoms and democracy.

ChocolateCakePlease Thu 23-May-13 22:01:11

That is my point - they aren't even called nasty racists, they are called "extremeists"

If they were white they would be racists not extremeists

That is people don't believe racism towards white people exist. I have lost tolerance with it because I have been racially abused verbally so many times and have seen white racism on mn too yet it is always egnored, brushed off or not believed.

Fluer Thu 23-May-13 22:02:15

This is from a year ago but it makes me cry to watch as I wonder where our country is headed if we don't stop the immigration. We are doomed to lose our culture and we have all been brought up to not be racist and shut up and say nothing yet they are allowed to do and say what the hell they like!
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00pbclq

Chipstick10 Thu 23-May-13 22:02:39

I agree with you chocolatecake. The murder of Ben kinsella was so clearly rasict yet not many media outlets went with that angle.

seeker Thu 23-May-13 22:03:20

Why was it "another level"? Another level from a 75 year old man being stabbed in the back on his way home from the mosque?

D0oinMeCleanin Thu 23-May-13 22:03:31

No, if they were white and they murdered someone for being Muslim while claiming they did it in the name of Christianity, they would be extremists.

Race and religion are two entirely different things.

Chipstick10 Thu 23-May-13 22:07:35

Yes it was another level. Shocking beyond measure.

ChocolateCakePlease Thu 23-May-13 22:07:35

Yes, because if the white man had been stabbed in the back with a knife and they had fled the scene then it wouldn't have the coverage.

The fact the men ran him over, butchered him and tried to cut his head off then stayed at the scene too let it be known it was an deliberate attack against our forces then yes it will be big news.

seeker Thu 23-May-13 22:08:36

Exactly.
The Woolwich atrocity wasn't racist. It was extremism. Just as bad, but different.

The murder of the grandfather I linked to was racist. In the Woolwich case, the perpetrators are under arrest. In the other case, nobody has even been questioned, let alone arrested.

ChocolateCakePlease Thu 23-May-13 22:10:06

I am writing on my phone which messes up grammer

seeker Thu 23-May-13 22:10:57

Would you care to comment on the Birmingham case? Any thoughts?

Dawndonna Thu 23-May-13 22:11:31

This is from a year ago but it makes me cry to watch as I wonder where our country is headed if we don't stop the immigration. We are doomed to lose our culture and we have all been brought up to not be racist and shut up and say nothing yet they are allowed to do and say what the hell they like!
Rubbish. We are not doomed to lose our culture. There are extremists in all religions. There are even non religious extremists.

WineNot Thu 23-May-13 22:11:58

seeker the perpetrators are under arrest because they chose to stick around and have a pop at the police!

The grandfather case is tragic (and is one of many racially motivated murders that have taken place of people of all colours - including white -over recent years). Are you implying that the police aren't actively trying to find that poor man's murderer because they're all racist?

SarahAndFuck Thu 23-May-13 22:12:04

Seeker I read your link. It made me feel ill. 75 years old and stabbed in the back. It's unthinkable.

But I think the reason that this murder and the one in Woolwich have been treated so differently by the media/public is that in the Woolwich one, almost instantly it was called a terrorist attack.

Terrorism is the magic word these days, it's everybody's boogieman.

HopALongMcLimpyLegs Thu 23-May-13 22:12:31

It's not racist because white isn't a race. I don't think it's racists to hate muslims either, isn't it islamaphobic? Either way, people can be vile and brutal.

The way the media is treating this is making me feel so uncomfortable. The instant soldier=hero leap, the 'fighting for his country' rhetoric that completely ignores what is actually going on overseas at the minute, the number of people who stood around taking pictures and filming it like it was some kind of spectator event, the cries to let them just die because OMG!1!! LYKE, OUR TAXES?!?! as if we don't spend much more tax payer money of stuff like dropping bombs all over the place overseas and buying toilet roll for people in already well paying jobs and this notion that somehow people should be sent back to their own country. When they were born here. and have exactly as much right as you to live a life free of persecution and free to practice their own religion and not be judged as less deserving because they like a different flavour of god. This is a country where we are still denying people equal rights based on their sex and sexual orientation for gods sake, and hideous violent acts like this do not happen in a vacuum.

I am incredibly sad for this poor man and his family, and angry that these men did something so horrific, but since they've got the masses raving and frothing like a pack of angry dogs, they appear to have done quite a good job in achieving their aims. David Cameron is a prize cunt, but he is right about terrorism trying to divide the nation. I wish people would just think about why the hell anyone would hack someone to death with a meat cleaver over politics and consider why this keeps happening.

I seem to have escaped the majority of the FB crap, I think I've weeded out the frothing beserkers over the years, though I did see one post that was along the lines of 'I'm the kind of person this government hates, white male taxpayer' and although it had bits of blatant racism and islamaphobia in it, it did seem to primarily be a benefit bashing rant. I hide that person from my feed (she's family).

SarahAndFuck Thu 23-May-13 22:13:25

Which is not to say that I think the difference in the way the murders have been broadcast is right or fair.

Fluer Thu 23-May-13 22:15:11

Dawndonna did you look at the link??

Chipstick10 Thu 23-May-13 22:16:14

What you just wrote has made me feel umcomfortable and you are totally out of step with the public mood right now.

Chipstick10 Thu 23-May-13 22:17:13

That was directed at hopalong btw.

ChocolateCakePlease Thu 23-May-13 22:18:22

Yes because again the old man was murdered which is awful, but black or white, people are murdered everyday.

Yesterdays attack was on another level, butchered it the street with his head attempted to be cut off with the murderers staying at the scene to make a statement against us. Yes that is going to be reported more.

Plus they only have the murderers because they stayed at the scene so donot make it sound like the police put the country on lock down to get the black murders whilst they let the white ones run free. Way to twist a story eh.

D0oinMeCleanin Thu 23-May-13 22:21:31

But Fluer, Christians and white people do have the right to protest!

Fair enough, you might not agree with what they are protesting about, nor do I, but that doesn't mean they were only allowed to protest because they are Muslim.

PatPig Thu 23-May-13 22:21:35

I don't think you can really draw too many conclusion from an unsolved murder tbh. I remember when the Philpott fire happened, people on here were ascribing it to benefits hatred. It wasn't, obviously.

Fluer Thu 23-May-13 22:22:10

Its a group of muslims marching through Luton saying " Police burn in hell" and saying that the people who are non muslim should burn in hell.

Dawndonna Thu 23-May-13 22:23:37

Fluer Yes dear, I saw it. How is it different from the National Front in the seventies, the BNP in the nineties and the current EDL?

flippinada Thu 23-May-13 22:28:06

"What you just wrote has made me feel umcomfortable and you are totally out of step with the public mood right now."

And they say 1984 was a work of fiction.

Personally, I'm uncomfortable with all the thinly veiled (well I say thinly veiled, perhaps transparent would be a more appropriate word to use) racism being displayed on here.

Everyone is aware, aren't they, that these two men are British born and bred, and that in fact one of them was bought up as a Christian?

I'm not getting this from woollyliberals.com either, it's been reported on the BBC News website.

ChocolateCakePlease Thu 23-May-13 22:28:12

I think the point is people are deleting friends from fb for saying bad things about muslims but will not mind, or even defend a muslim protest telling non muslims to burn in hell. confused

HopALongMcLimpyLegs Thu 23-May-13 22:28:36

Because everyone in 'the public' feels exactly the same way.

I'm not condoning what happened, I'm really not, that man was the victim of a horrible crime, he did not deserve to have this happen to him Maybe he was a hero, maybe he was just an ordinary bloke walking down the street. The problem I have is that him being lauded as a 'Hero Soldier' (whether true or not) changes the whole reporting of the crime. What if this had been an out of work man, or someone with a less press-friendly job, etc etc. The crime is still hideous, but you can be certain it would dramatically change the way it was reported and the way people are reacting.

But then, I'm not one to 'support the troops'. What is happening around the world right now is very questionable and if it's leading to people acting like this then we need to talk about. And armed forces personnel are just doing a job in the same way that the police and firefighters and doctors and nurses are just doing a job. They do it with varying degrees of professionalism and quality. Being a soldier does not make someone a hero or a good person, and I speak as the child of a forces dad. He might have been the nicest person on the planet, he might have been an utter twat. The point is that is shouldn't matter - we should treat crimes like this with the same shock and horror regardless of the status of the victim, but we don't. It carries across all kind of crimes, and it is wrong.

That's not to say that the fact that he was killed probably because he was a soldier isn't important. Clearly that's the crux of the message these people are making. I think it is very foolish to write them off the way some people are suggesting. We wont bow to terrorism, but we should be listening to what they are saying. There's no justification for this crime, but that doesn't mean that they might not have a bit of point.

PatPig Thu 23-May-13 22:30:48

No we shouldn't listen. Why should we listen to fuckcases who behead random strangers in the street. Jesus.

alemci Thu 23-May-13 22:32:12

Also the men doing the murders said it was because the British were killing Moslems in Afghanistan. What about the Taliban murdering fellow Moslems? Is that ok. This is what I find so hard to understand.

I have to agree with you Fluer. I think people are frightened and this is the thin edge of the wedge. Some of the extremists seem to have a mindset that died out in the middle ages here and they are British born which is scary.

Perhaps the prison authorities need to investigate prisoners being converted to Islam. Isn't that just to have a better life in the prison and not be bullied by the extremists?

HopALongMcLimpyLegs Thu 23-May-13 22:32:38

Because they feel the way they feel for a fucking reason. And if we want to stop people from getting to a point where they are making a point in this kind of way, we need to listen to what they are saying and figure out how to stop this.

gordyslovesheep Thu 23-May-13 22:32:51

just for some of you www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjuNuqIev8M&feature=share

as long as people think all Asian people are Muslim and Muslim = not British and probably a wife beating, child exploiting terrorist - hate crime will thrive

Dawndonna Thu 23-May-13 22:34:24

Good grief, it's not even thinly veiled racism.
angry

HopALongMcLimpyLegs Thu 23-May-13 22:35:40

I think that man's two brain cells are having a fight over which words to use.

gordyslovesheep Thu 23-May-13 22:35:45

that is what you are dealing with when trying to engage with not racist but...types - it makes your brain bleed

HopALongMcLimpyLegs Thu 23-May-13 22:36:13

He really puts the 'great' in Great Britain, eh?

alemci Thu 23-May-13 22:37:54

Most people don't Gordy. My brother is married to a Chinese lady and she is Asian.

Some are Hindu, Buddist etc.

However, Islam does seem to cause alot of problems. I don't see it as a peaceful religion as it is claimed.

WineNot Thu 23-May-13 22:38:45

as long as people think all Asian people are Muslim and Muslim = not British and probably a wife beating, child exploiting terrorist

You do realise no one actually thinks that, don't you?

PatPig Thu 23-May-13 22:38:53

They think that way because they are inspired by fanaticism. No different from the Heavens Gate cult.

gordyslovesheep Thu 23-May-13 22:40:07

well none of my Muslim friends have ever tried to kill me alemci so I make my own judgements on that thanks

ChocolateCakePlease Thu 23-May-13 22:40:13

I don't think the majority of people in this country actually support the war though or ever really have. If they are trying to convince british people they are trying to convince the wrong people. If they are trying to get through to government they are going the wrong way about it because attacks like this make the government more determined and will always send out the "terrorism will always fail" message.

WineNot Thu 23-May-13 22:40:13

What I mean by that is that, with the exception of a very small minority of EDL morons, that isn't people's view of Muslims?

gordyslovesheep Thu 23-May-13 22:40:52

No Winealot - many people DO think like that - you see it here on a weekly basis

D0oinMeCleanin Thu 23-May-13 22:41:11

Yes, and Catholicism has never caused any problems has it?

WineNot Thu 23-May-13 22:41:59

Show me one person on here that thinks that all Muslims are "wife beating, child exploiting terrorists"

I'm genuinely interested.

gordyslovesheep Thu 23-May-13 22:42:27

People think Muslim women are oppressed and down trodden
People think Muslims see white children as easy prey
people think Muslims are more like to be terrorists than any other group

people think most Asians are Muslim

there are a lot of thick people out there

look at threads on MN - it's there

HopALongMcLimpyLegs Thu 23-May-13 22:42:56

alemci I sort of agree with you about Islam. I have issues with the way it treats women (but then that's hardly a unique problem with organised religion) and I can see how it has values that do sometimes class with those of a western, supposedly christian, nation. God knows I don't know how to solve those issues, and I can't even marry up my own thoughts on wanting everyone to have freedom to practice their own religion and my thoughts on equal rights and feminism and the treatment of women and minority groups. But I do believe that the answer has to be in more communication and listening to what people are trying to say and not just saying 'well, they are extremists, you get them in all groups'. Because that's what's been happening and it doesn't seem to be working very well.

gordyslovesheep Thu 23-May-13 22:43:21

well I am betting the bloke on the link I posted does Winealot

WineNot Thu 23-May-13 22:43:33

So not "all Muslims are wife beating, child exploiting terrorists" then?

HopALongMcLimpyLegs Thu 23-May-13 22:44:37

^Just to clarify, I don't think all muslim women are oppressed or down trodden, I just am uncomfortable with some of the rules and guidance about behaviour and dress that seem to be very anti-women in nature. I suppose it's up to personal interpretation how much those might actually oppress women really.

gordyslovesheep Thu 23-May-13 22:45:24

like nuns hopalong

gordyslovesheep Thu 23-May-13 22:46:01

stop being a pedant winenot

HopALongMcLimpyLegs Thu 23-May-13 22:46:52

Well yes, exactly. As I said, it's hardly a situation unique to Islam. Though I suppose there is more choice about becoming a nun, you're pretty much stuck being a woman really.

alemci Thu 23-May-13 22:47:51

I realise that Gordy. they wouldn't be very good friends would they.

Chipstick10 Thu 23-May-13 22:47:57

Flippinada I hope that wasn't directed at me re transparent rasicsm. Read all my posts on this thread, none are in any way racist, I hope you are not alluding to me.

gordyslovesheep Thu 23-May-13 22:48:15

but Muslim women have the same choices - unless they are in totally trans cultural trans racial domestically oppressive/abusive situations

amazingmumof6 Thu 23-May-13 22:48:19

hopalong
phobia means fear, not hate, technically.

although fear can breed hate.

gordyslovesheep Thu 23-May-13 22:49:12

No alemci they wouldn't grin

ChocolateCakePlease Thu 23-May-13 22:50:21

When a female muslim dresses in that way why do men not? Genuine question

gordyslovesheep Thu 23-May-13 22:51:55

in what way? Men wear traditional clothes as well

my female Muslim friends wear jeans and tops