to be pissed off at seeing a pregnant woman smoking yesterday?

(240 Posts)
topsi Mon 20-May-13 18:59:07

Am not sure what goes through some people's minds? WHY??

OldLadyKnowsNothing Mon 20-May-13 19:00:24

Because they're addicted?

Dawndonna Mon 20-May-13 19:01:09

Judge not lest ye be judged.

MsHighwater Mon 20-May-13 19:01:37

Not your battle. There are more and better causes for you to get pissed about.

SantanaLopez Mon 20-May-13 19:01:55

Is it really any of your business? Beak out.

If it pissed you off that much why didn't you go and confront her about it?

topsi Mon 20-May-13 19:02:25

well bloody get it sorted before you decide to get pregnant and affect another humans health

DomesticCEO Mon 20-May-13 19:02:35

YANBU. Inexcusable and indefensible. And I speak as an ex-smoker.

KingRollo Mon 20-May-13 19:03:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NigelYerABawbag Mon 20-May-13 19:03:11

Yes YABU.

Its a crap choice but its not your business.

TheToysAreALIVEITellThee Mon 20-May-13 19:03:17

Might have been her first one in ages?
She could be addicted but cutting down?
She might be doing Allan Carr?
It might be none of your business?

puds11isNAUGHTYnotNAICE Mon 20-May-13 19:03:26

I bet she wished she'd thought of that topsi hmm

MalcolmTuckersMum Mon 20-May-13 19:03:37

It's a free country. You are allowed to feel whatever you like about whatever you like! What are you looking for here?

topsi Mon 20-May-13 19:03:39

I can't even look her in the eye. I am not a confrontational person. I just don't understand it

Fedupofdiets Mon 20-May-13 19:04:04

Completely agree - addict or not if you can't put your child's health first whilst its still inside you then what does that say about you?

topsi Mon 20-May-13 19:04:42

Last time I saw her she was smoking as well

topsi Mon 20-May-13 19:05:29

All the family at it around her other child as well

EglantinePrice Mon 20-May-13 19:05:37

Hope you don't have a glass of wine when you're pregnant, or a piece of soft cheese or miss one of your 5 a day or forget your folic acid...

You don't have to understand it, you don't have to anything it, she was a stranger, you have no idea what her reasons for making a legal choice to smoke were, would you like to be judged on a 10 second snippet of your life?

TheToysAreALIVEITellThee Mon 20-May-13 19:06:49

I bet she's on benefits aswell

LadyBeagleEyes Mon 20-May-13 19:06:57

None of your business.
But I grew up with parents who both smoked Capstan full strength, a whole different generation, 4 of us, all born in the fifties.
I know things are different now, we have far more knowledge, but I still think meh if a pregnant woman smokes.

NigelYerABawbag Mon 20-May-13 19:07:12

FWIW I smoked when pregnant with my oldest child. I did however manage to stop taking heroin and drinking every day, and cut down from my previous daily 20+ rollies to 3/4.

You have no idea whats going on in her life.

twofalls Mon 20-May-13 19:07:21

YANBU but it's a strange thing on MN, feed your child a Greg's sausage roll or a fruit shoot and you will be severely judged. Poison your unborn child by smoking which is known to create serious problems for babies and you will be vehemently defended. Prepare for a bun fight.

SantanaLopez Mon 20-May-13 19:07:22

You should report her to social services, string her up by her ankles and publicly humiliate her.

While you're at it, start a campaign for anyone who buys a packet of fags should be sterilised at the same time.

jacks365 Mon 20-May-13 19:07:34

Fedupofdiets it says you're an addict.

Are you aware that the stress of trying to quit is more damaging than smoking

VerySmallSqueak Mon 20-May-13 19:07:59

topsi it's not easy to give up smoking,and if you get pregnant when you haven't planned it,you have no time to prepare yourself for the fact.
You don't know what's going on in her life.You don't know whether she is having a daily struggle with smoking and she has worked down from 80 a day and that is one of the last ones she'll ever smoke.

everlong Mon 20-May-13 19:08:39

OP you won't win this.

For some reason beyond me the pregnant smoker is in the right on MN.

Give up now.

topsi Mon 20-May-13 19:08:46

if I were pregnant now I wouldn't drink any alcohol as it has been proven to affect the child just like smoking has.
I wonder if she drove her small child home with out a seat belt on as I see it as the same thing, a total disregard for your child's safety and well being

twofalls Mon 20-May-13 19:11:05

I have been here 7 years everlong and I still don't get that about this place.

EglantinePrice Mon 20-May-13 19:11:22

So reading between the lines... you did drink when you were pregnant?

jacks365 Mon 20-May-13 19:11:39

Topsi excessive alcohol has been shown to affect a child but no evidence either way with low amounts and smoking MAY harm an unborn child not will.

topsi Mon 20-May-13 19:12:52

Yes and smoking MAY give you cancer

ApocalypseThen Mon 20-May-13 19:13:15

I don't think anyone likes to see this but be human. None of us are perfect. Some of us are just lucky that our vices aren't as visible.

YANBU. I hate seeing it to and I'm an ex smoker.

sunshine401 Mon 20-May-13 19:14:38

Are you aware that the stress of trying to quit is more damaging than smoking
Very true

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ComposHat Mon 20-May-13 19:16:57

Why were you pissed off OP?

Would she not lend you a fag?

jacks that's not actually true, most Doctors will tell you it's perfectly safe to stop smoking cold turkey when pregnant. Linky.

But I agree with what everyone is saying about minding your own business Topsi.

I can't understand smoking while pregnant but I don't understand addiction either. It is selfish of the mother, of course it is, but addiction is hard to overcome.

MilgramsLittleHelper Mon 20-May-13 19:18:01

There is a already a substantial and growing body of evidence against smoking whilst pregnant. I think it's actually disturbing that a large body of posters have chosen to belittle the OPs opinion. So when has it been right to inflict potential damage on a unborn?, but as long as the mother has her freedom of expression that's ok? Pathetic.

Thurlow Mon 20-May-13 19:19:09

well bloody get it sorted before you decide to get pregnant and affect another humans health

Um, perhaps she wasn't TTC and so didn't have a chance to quit first and is struggling now? Thought about that? Do you really think life is that straightforward?

VerySmallSqueak Mon 20-May-13 19:19:19

Unless you have smoked you don't really understand how difficult it is to give up.

I think it is generally agreed that smoking in pregnancy isn't recommended.
I don't think you'd find the hordes on MN queueing to suggest someone starts smoking in pregnancy.

It's the judging of people who are quite possibly in full agreement that smoking in pregnancy isn't a good idea,but are struggling to give it up,that's attracting criticism.

Everyone walking past with cats bum faces ain't going to help her give up.

LadyBeagleEyes Mon 20-May-13 19:19:39

I cut down on smoking but didn't give up when I was pregnant.
Sorry if that makes me some sort of evil mother.
We definitely have more knowledge nowadays towards childbirth, but fuck, at 56, and pretty healthy despite the fact that my mum did every thing wrong, I kind of feel sorry for anyone having a pregnancy these days.
They will never win.

jacks365 Mon 20-May-13 19:21:29

It is about rights though. Should the unborn baby have more rights than the mother. How far do we want the state to interfere in our lives.

I'm a non smoker by the way so I am not defending something I would do

VerySmallSqueak Mon 20-May-13 19:23:31

You see people who are dying from smoking related illnesses who can hardly draw breath sucking away madly on a fag.
If some can't give up facing the discomfort right there and then of indulging in their 'fix',surely there can be some understanding given to women who don't manage to kick the habit completely in pregnancy?

I am pretty live and let live on most stuff, on this I am vehemently judgemental. DS was transferred to another NICU 2 hours away from me on a ventilator, I thought DH was going to rugby tackle a pregnant lady's fag off her on the way in one day. There is nothing so terrifying as seeing a newborn baby unable to breathe.

twofalls Mon 20-May-13 19:26:02

To be honest the 3 pg mothers I was chatting to in the school grounds who smoke have no intention of giving up. One of them said it was because smoking gave her small babies and she liked them like that. Nice.

In all honesty if I was struggling to give up but really wanted to I probably wouldn't be walking around in public clanging them off. And I say that as an ex smoker.

I quit smoking two years ago, after countless failed attempts to cut down. The only way I managed to do it was to lock myself away for a week and avoid everyone, it was incredibly difficult. It's not easy, especially if you're going through stress like a pregnancy.

I knew a woman who was pregnant with twins who was still smoking, she knew how dangerous it was, read all the literature but still couldn't do it. Unless you've actually smoked, you don't know how difficult it is.

VerySmallSqueak Mon 20-May-13 19:27:49

They have to walk around in public twofalls because they can't smoke indoors.

ginmakesitallok Mon 20-May-13 19:28:27

Of course smoking isn't good for you or for unborn baby, but there is no evidence that smoking small numbers of cigarettes will do baby any harm.

FrenchRuby Mon 20-May-13 19:31:22

I'm a person who can pick up and drop smoking easily. I stopped as soon as I found out I was pregnant, didn't have another cigarette for 3 years, smoked 2 a day for about a month then didn't smoke again for 2 years then started again for 6 months then quit again about 3 months ago quite easily. Some people don't find it that easy, we have no right to judge.

persimmon Mon 20-May-13 19:32:07

I agree with you, OP. I drive past a maternity hospital frequently and there is always a group of pregnant women fagging it outside the gates. Utterly mind-boggling.

I smoked for years btw. I know giving up is hard. It isn't impossible though, crucially.

OrlaKiely Mon 20-May-13 19:32:50

I feel for the person with the habit

But I feel more for the baby inside her

I saw someone doing this today and did a double take. It was very uncomfortable - if you saw someone trying to force a baby, like one that had been born, to inhale toxic gases then no one would question it.

But because it's still unborn it's kind of about her as well as the baby.

It doesn't sit well with me AT all but I can understand it, a bit, I can also understand how and why people smack children but that doesn't make it Ok.

VerySmallSqueak Mon 20-May-13 19:33:07

Someone doesn't come out with a magic wand just because you're pregnant and take away the addiction.
I did give up with pregnancies (and have given up 'for good' since) but it was really hard,and just like some can't give up when they have a life threatening condition relating to smoking,some aren't able to give up for pregnancy.

I cannot agree with a woman who makes the decision not to try and give up smoking in pregnancy,because they want a small baby,or any of that stuff.
I'll agree there.

But when you see a pregnant woman smoking you don't know if she falls into the category of can't give up,or won't give up.

ginmakesitallok that's not true, either, sorry. Every time you smoke you narrow the blood vessels in your umbilical cord, plus it stops your blood from being properly oxygenated. Even one of two a day can increase the risk of premature birth and other complications.

LastTangoInDevonshire Mon 20-May-13 19:36:29

Oooooooh, ANOTHER smoking thread ! 'Tis only 24 hours since the last one.

everlong Mon 20-May-13 19:39:16

I smoked from early teens. I loved smoking ( still have one when out drinking ) but as soon as I got pregnant at 20 years old 25 years ago I stopped. Not because anybody told me to but because I was worried about the baby and it's development.

Yes it was hard, stopping smoking cold turkey is. But it can be done if you want to.

And to be fair all those years ago there wasn't the same information and urgency and support in giving up whilst pregnancy. But I managed it.

Another bloody smoking thread?

It's not illegal, being pissed off wont change anything and it is the woman's body.

girliefriend Mon 20-May-13 19:41:16

yanbu

everlong Mon 20-May-13 19:42:05

Schro no it won't change anything but the OP can air her views how awful she finds it.

DomesticCEO Mon 20-May-13 19:42:49

I cannot BELIEVE the crap that is being spouted on here justifying smoking while pregnant!

No one, absolutely no one, can claim to not know the terrible harm it does.

Incredible.

Solari Mon 20-May-13 19:45:48

Just an alternate view, not saying its the case for this women (nor the case for many women who continue to smoke), but you never know an individual's story.

Perhaps she'd just been told her baby had died in utero, or had a condition incompatible with life. If I smoked, I'd probably be having a cigarette after that kind of news.

Am not saying that's the most likely scenario, but its certainly a possible one...

VerySmallSqueak Mon 20-May-13 19:46:17

But everlong some women have been smoking for 20 years,maybe even more,before they get pregnant.
That's one hell of a habit to break.

everlong Mon 20-May-13 19:47:11

Jesus solari those odds are slim grin

everlong Mon 20-May-13 19:48:15

But but but. A smoking habit is a smoking habit.
It can be broke.

ApocalypseThen Mon 20-May-13 19:48:50

It all stems from the idea that once a woman becomes pregnant she loses herself and becomes a mere vessel.

everlong Mon 20-May-13 19:52:02

Nobody forces her to get pregnant though, she chooses that.

The baby has no choice.

Solari Mon 20-May-13 19:52:02

everlong Slim for any individual person spotted smoking. But we know those events do happen regularly. Its very possible/plausible that people experiencing such events would go out for a smoke after.

limitedperiodonly Mon 20-May-13 19:52:19

I am not a confrontational person. I just don't understand it

I am a non-smoker and a confrontational person too.

So why have you posted this? Do you want a fucking medal?

VerySmallSqueak Mon 20-May-13 19:55:34

Yes everlong - you and I are proof of that.

I agree that the vast majority of us can do it.

But apparently some women struggle more,and they are in the minority, which is why they are picked out and judged.

sydlexic Mon 20-May-13 19:59:22

Solari, I went for a scan was told my baby had died, drove to the nearest garage and purchased cigarettes, someone in the queue had a go at me. I spared her my reason.

HeffalumpTheFlump Mon 20-May-13 20:00:30

I just don't get it. Give a child squash - disgusting!! Macdonalds - unforgiveable!! But put hundreds of harmful chemicals into a poor baby's system and restrict their oxygen - no problem according to MN! It makes no sense to me at all.

Solari Mon 20-May-13 20:02:20

I'm so sorry sydlexic sad

Mrsanna Mon 20-May-13 20:02:56

I find it hard to not be saddened by the site of a pregnant woman smoking.

I've posted on here before about my cousin & his wife who both smoked all the way through her pregnancy. Their baby died from cot death at just 18 days old.

They have since had another baby & incredibly, both smoked all the way through the pregnancy. Any HCP advising them to quit had the opposite effect.

The pregnancy was beset with problems: hospital stays, premature labour, steroid injections etc.

They continue to smoke all over this new baby who has been in hospital twice now with bronchitis.

To say I don't understand them would be an understatement.

I don't care how addicted they think they are, they are spectacularly selfish imo.

ReindeerBollocks Mon 20-May-13 20:04:09

I know one woman recently who is smoking during pregnancy. For her previous pregnancies she didn't smoke at all. This was a (very) unplanned pregnancy and is close to tipping her over the edge. It's quite sad because her pregnancy is not allowed to be acknowledged by her DP, or others in his presence.

She is beyond stressed and smoking is her way of pretending this isn't happening, this is just one of the reasons I'm worried about her.

I doubt very much she'd give a fuck about being judged, it's the least of her issues.

NotSoNervous Mon 20-May-13 20:06:13

Hmm I'm on the fence a little. YABU be because you don't know the situation, the women could have been smoking 40 a day and has cut down to 1 and you've just saw that one, also it's not any of your business. But it is wrong and not nice to see

Trinpy Mon 20-May-13 20:10:08

This has reminded me: a couple of days ago a friend of mine was having a judgey rant about parents who smoke in the house, I was a bit hmm since I remember this friend smoking right the way through her pregnancy with her dd!

I've never smoked and never been addicted to anything so I can't/don't judge anyone. I would hope though, that if I was then I would do everything and anything to stop the addiction if it compromised the health of someone I loved.

Heffalump No one is saying that is okay, no one would advocate killing a baby but most people on here are pro-choice with abortion, because most realise that women aren't just walking incubators and while she is growing a child she is still a person, human and with feelings and her own problems as well and has the ability to make her own choices, regardless of whether or not they are the wrong ones.

PaperSeagull Mon 20-May-13 20:11:38

It's pretty far down my list of concerns, TBH. I know people enjoy feeling self-righteous, but it's really none of your business.

My mother smoked throughout my childhood. She gave up smoking each time she was pregnant, but she took it up again after each child was born. That doesn't necessarily mean it's easy for others to give up smoking during pregnancy. My mother has a will of iron. When she finally quit smoking for good, she just stopped and that was that.

FTR, I have never smoked a cigarette in my life. Having parents who were smokers was an excellent deterrent (not suggesting people actively choose this method to deter their own children, obviously!).

Disastronaut Mon 20-May-13 20:35:24

What SchroeSaw said about 'walking incubators' - agree muchly.

Personally, I wouldn't smoke during pregnancy, but my decision to drink coffee, coke & the odd glass of wine (I'm 18 weeks) and, horror of horrors stay on anti-depressants while expecting puts me well into the bad mother camp.

Thank god, what we each think of other women's behaviour doesn't matter, or most of us would fail.

everlong Mon 20-May-13 20:45:15

But why wouldn't you want to be a ' walking incubator ' for 9 months for your baby that you proclaim to love and would do anything for?

I don't get it.

Once they are born you have that mindset of giving them everything possible, especially good health, why not when they are at their most vulnerable?

Whatalotofpiffle Mon 20-May-13 20:46:34

Ha ha ha mind your own business! Like anyone on mn is capable of minding their own business! If we were mn wouldn't exist!!

WorraLiberty Mon 20-May-13 20:47:30

well bloody get it sorted before you decide to get pregnant and affect another humans health

Do you say the same about obese women?

Because some people don't bond with the baby before it's born, didn't want to get pregnant and are in denial, have serious problems with the addiction and quitting or plenty of other problems that just make the thought of quitting smoking enough to put them over the edge.

Solari Mon 20-May-13 20:51:51

Well the controversial thing is that some women don't feel any particular glow towards their baby, or desire to give up everything for them.

Its not really permissible to admit that in society, so you'll hardly ever hear those feelings expressed, but it is certainly the case for some.

Just as there are dads who seemingly feel nothing for their children (like those who happily walk away), there are also mums who don't feel much at all. Its just far more forbidden.

Solari Mon 20-May-13 20:57:11

^
By no means am I applying that to everyone who smokes btw (the reasons could be many).

But certainly mothers are not expected to admit anything but undying love and self-sacrifice for their children, and in reality its not always the case.

Disastronaut Mon 20-May-13 20:58:18

Everlong: I don't want to be a walking incubator because I'm still me! A normal, adult, fallible person, with good & bad things about me. Society has so much to say about how a woman should be, how she should look & behave, who she should sleep with - everything. And it's amplified hugely once she's pregnant.

We have to be free to make potentially terrible choices when pregnant, just as we are when un-pregnant. Otherwise we'll end up with abortion being illegal & mandatory diet checks for the pregnant!

CuttedUpPear Mon 20-May-13 21:01:51

Cut out the bollocks about it being more stressful to give smoking than to continue. Giving up smoking isn't like giving up heroin.

Selfish addicts.

CuttedUpPear Mon 20-May-13 21:03:06

I wonder if you lot of smoking supporters would say the same if you saw a pregnant heroin addict injecting.

Their choice still? Or do they need urgent help to stop?

LadyBeagleEyes Mon 20-May-13 21:05:55

Well like I said I was born in the generation where everybody smoked.
I had three siblings, I was a twin, the other two were normal weight. No health issues at all during childhood.
Ds is nearly 18, and I smoked during pregnancy.
Again the hysteria hadn't started, you could still smoke inside and on planes and on the top deck of a bus.
Times change, but really, smoking during pregnancy was not a big deal until the last ten years, and hey we've all survived and given birth in spite of what our parents did.

Cutted It's still their choice. Regardless.

When you say "help", do you actually mean to say "forced"? Because there is already help to stop.

Solari Mon 20-May-13 21:06:52

There is a difference between personally disagreeing with what someone does, and acknowledging that it is their right to.

Conceding that someone has the right to a certain behaviour does not mean condoning that behaviour. Its condoning freedom.

Thurlow Mon 20-May-13 21:06:53

It's not about supporting smoking. It's about acknowledging that it's not always that straightforward and that judging someone is useless and unhelpful.

What *Solari" said.

Lexiesinclair Mon 20-May-13 21:09:29

YANBU.

I agree with everything Everlong has said. If the baby was born and the woman was breathing smoke all over it it would be less acceptable, yet less harmful. It's neglect.
And pmsl at the poster who compares it to missing a folic acid tablet. grin

WorraLiberty Mon 20-May-13 21:10:02

What Thurlow said

There are many, many things we can judge pregnant mothers for doing and smoking is just one of them.

So where would the judging and lack of empathy stop?

everlong Mon 20-May-13 21:17:40

Empathy?

If a woman is trying to stop, is concerned for her baby, reaches out for support of course she needs and deserves empathy.

But if she just says ' stuff it, it's my body ' I'm sorry but would you still empathise with her worra?

Surely the baby has a right to be born healthy? Where's the empathy for the baby in all this?

How would you know she had just thought "stuff it, it's my body" though? You would just be assuming that after seeing her while not actually knowing anything about her.

everlong Mon 20-May-13 21:23:51

It's a hypothetical question.

digerd Mon 20-May-13 21:26:47

I met a woman who told me her DH died due to giving up smoking. His bronchial tubes reacted violently and he developed a terrible cough that choked him to death shock.

WorraLiberty Mon 20-May-13 21:28:36

everlong I was kind of going with what the OP has said. She's shown a lack of just about everything including understanding of addiction.

I agree, its selfish to say 'stuff it, it's my body'.

Although I have to say from what I see around me, there seem to be more overweight/obese women with that attitude, than smokers.

Smoking has declined fairly rapidly in the last few years, yet just under half of UK women of childbearing age are overweight/obese...this can cause health problems for both the baby and the mother.

So why is it always the smokers who get the judgy fingers pointed at them?

I've yet to see a thread where 'Discusted of Dagenham', proclaims that these people should have done something about that, before TTC.

Not that I'm saying they should start a judgey thread like that...just that it's more likely smokers will be the subject of their anger.

Disastronaut Mon 20-May-13 21:30:31

It comes down to a difference between what's moral or (even 'a good idea') & what's legal. Is it a good idea to smoke when pregnant? - no. Is it 'moral' to use heroin or drink yourself to death while pregnant? Most of us would say no.

But it's legal because the foetus has no rights as a person. And it's really important it stays that way.

Ashoething Mon 20-May-13 21:31:14

my mum started smoking when she was pregnant with me.i was a low birth weight baby.I the had my son who was a low birth weight baby.There is a direct correlation.So my mums selfish decision to smoke not only effected myself but also my child.Smoking when pregnant is disgusting and cannot be justified.

Lexiesinclair Mon 20-May-13 21:31:29

The rights of a woman to do as she chooses to her own body should not take precedent over the rights of the unborn child to not be harmed by its mother. However hard it is to give up smoking, she is making an informed choice to continue and risk her baby's health.

Lexie So what do you think is the solution? Force women to stop?

AShoe How do you know that is what caused you and your DC to be low birth weight?

Ashoething Mon 20-May-13 21:33:17

The reasotTThe readon Tt

namechangeofshame Mon 20-May-13 21:33:24

YANBU is selfish and wrong and I quite happily judge.

All the excuses about stress, it's hard to give up etc are just that weak excuses to put yourself first.

I say that as someone who went from 30-40 a day from the age of 11-32 then gave up after I found I was pg.

Solari Mon 20-May-13 21:33:54

^ That pretty much only works if you are anti-abortion, which is another whole debate in itself.

Fakebook Mon 20-May-13 21:34:01

It pisses me off when pregnant women smoke right outside the delivery suite next to a massive non-smoking sign at our hospital. They're more than welcome to smoke in their own homes away from me.

Solari Mon 20-May-13 21:34:21

Sorry, that was to Lexiesinclair, thread moves fast!

Ashoething Mon 20-May-13 21:35:13

The reason smoking in pregnancy is so vehemently defended on mn is because some posters obviously smoked in pregnancy and their guilt makes them defensive.

Solari Mon 20-May-13 21:36:19

Certainly not true in my case Ashoething , did everything absolutely by the book in my pregnancies.

I don't agree morally with people who smoke during pregnancy.

I do however acknowledge that they have the right to, whether I like it or not.

Disastronaut Mon 20-May-13 21:36:24

Lexie: that's quite an alarming statement, IMHO. How would you ensure I didn't harm my foetus? Mandatory drug tests? 24 hour surveillance? Legal action??

BonaDrag Mon 20-May-13 21:36:47

I was a 20 a day sm

JamieandtheMagicTorch Mon 20-May-13 21:37:59

I have more sympathy with people who have tried and can't give up, and who do massively cut down, than those who say it is their right to do what they want with their body. That's not a good defence, IMO

I also admit I hate smoking and think it's an odd and pretty stupid thing to do at any time.

BonaDrag Mon 20-May-13 21:38:02

..smoker and when I got a BFP I stopped immediately.

Yes it's hard, but not that fucking hard. Smoking when pregnant is disgusting, selfish and looks trashy.

WorraLiberty Mon 20-May-13 21:38:36

The reason smoking in pregnancy is so vehemently defended on mn is because some posters obviously smoked in pregnancy and their guilt makes them defensive.

And perhaps the reason obesity isn't judged as harshly is because there are more MNetters who actively TTC whilst overweight/obese, than smokers?

I was neither of the two during my pregnancies, yet I judge neither.

I just don't understand why smokers seem fair game. Is it to make people feel better, to have someone to point at?

marzipanned Mon 20-May-13 21:38:37

No, YANBU. I go the fertility clinic regularly for treatment. The entrance/exit is the same as the one for the maternity hospital. There are ALWAYS pregnant women clustered outside puffing away. I really, really hate it - not just that they're smoking while pregnant, but that they're so fucking inconsiderate as to stand outside a doorway that has new babies being brought out (not to mention all the women going to the fertility clinic, many of whom I imagine have had to quit smoking/lose weight in order to receive treatment..)

I did a bit with DS then had the occasional one and used an electric cigarette.

I use the SkyCig in this pregnancy but did take a bit to do that after I found out I was pg.

I couldn't care less if I am judged for it from people who don't know me or anything about my life.

Ashoething Mon 20-May-13 21:39:27

Because schrowsaw-low birth weight is a documented occurrence in smokers.If ypu yourself were a low birth weight baby then you are far more statiscally likely to have a low birth weight child.

marzipanned Mon 20-May-13 21:40:15

Sorry, x-post with Fakebook

everlong Mon 20-May-13 21:40:49

I suppose worra people don't deem being obese as harmful as smoking when pregnant.

MissAnnersley Mon 20-May-13 21:41:16

YANBU. It's grim.

I'm pretty sure it isn't documented to be the case with the next generation though (when it's linked to smoking and not just a genetic low birth thing)?

I haven't heard that before.

Ashoething Mon 20-May-13 21:42:12

I know your life in incredibly stressful Schrow-with your disability and living arrangements.Im sorry about that.Do you have anyone supporting you in trying to give up? on another note-did you go to the police about the blackmail pics?

McNewPants2013 Mon 20-May-13 21:42:59

the reason i defend women who smoke in pregnancy is because i don't know that person life story.

I didn't smoke in pregnancy and sitting behind a screen I would encourage the women to give up, but if they cant they cant

WorraLiberty Mon 20-May-13 21:44:02

Exactly everlong, they seem to be too busy pointing the finger away from themselves, at the ever decreasing amount of smokers.

Stones and glass houses come to mind.

ApocalypseThen Mon 20-May-13 21:44:38

I just don't get it. Give a child squash - disgusting!! Macdonalds - unforgiveable!!

Yeah, if you don't see pregnant women as human beings with flaws and wants and desires and thoughts, I can see why it would be confusing.

It's not too stressful at the moment. I do have support from my family (because the NHS cessation is crap and counter productive) and find it a lot easier going it alone.

I wasn't specifically talking about you btw quite aware everyone on here has heard me moan a million times grin

I didn't go to the police, well not yet. I never got any more messages and have scoured the net looking. Just couldn't face it at the moment but have kept all the messages and screen shots as evidence just in case.

Solari Mon 20-May-13 21:45:49

If some people can't give up smoking to save their own life, then there is obviously more to it for some than just giving up 'a buzz'.

I agree that I wouldn't have much empathy for someone who didn't want to stop smoking for no other reason than it was her 'right' to, but I also can't tell that just by looking at someone who is smoking.

Fedupofdiets Mon 20-May-13 21:49:58

I suppose the thing about obesity in pregnancy is that it isn't something the mum can instantly change in order to give the health benefits to the baby. Smoking is, a woman can chose to stop smoking they chose not to. Aren't you all good though for not judging hmm

charlove Mon 20-May-13 21:51:46

it really pisses me off to see that aswell. i will not "it's an addiction" as an answer. i smoked for over 10 years before i got pregnant (was a suprise baby so i hadn't even thought about quitting yet) but the second i saw that little blue line i chucked the fags and lighters in the bin and didn't even think about having one after that.

i just think when its not just you that is being hurt by your actions but also your little baby. then to continue smoking you must be such a weak, selfish and thoughtless person. if i can quit anyone can, case closed.

5madthings Mon 20-May-13 21:53:15

Yabu as you have no idea what is going on in that persons life and also a so,an doesn't give up her bodily autonomy when she is pregnant, the unborn doesn't have rights ams for good reason.

You can not like it and not do it yourself and be as morally outraged as you like, assuming you are perfect and never do anything wrong?

No but you can instantly change the way you eat and look after yourself.

I've had a few friends that are really very overweight, get pregnant and then use it as an excuse to eat more junk and moan about MWs suggesting they change their diet or are completely insulted when anything about their weight is mentioned.

These same people would be on this thread saying out utterly selfish it is too smoke.

It's just not seen as much of a problem, even though it's more widespread.

"if i can quit anyone can, case closed." And you know that how?

Solari Mon 20-May-13 21:56:00

"If I can quit anyone can" <-- This is simply not true. Until you have run the full gauntlet of human misery and suffering in life and have dealt with every possible scenario women are battling with in various different lives, you do not know that 'anyone' could quit, nor that you yourself could quit given certain circumstances (including severe depression, mental illness, rock bottom life-coping skills).

Some people can't quit to save their life. I think there is something far more sinister in the equation than 'weak will'.

5madthings Mon 20-May-13 21:56:03

Bollocks is it case closed, I got preg with ds1 at 19 and at uni and I did stop as soon as I knew I was pregnant but 9urs later having had post natal psychosis after ds4 I started again and then got preg, maintaining my mental health was more important to me and my children than not having the odd cigarette and my cpn, midwife and consultant agreed.

WorraLiberty Mon 20-May-13 21:56:32

Fedupofdiets it's not about instant change...I'm not talking about accidental pregnancy. I'm talking about those who TTC.

Very rarely (if at all) have I seen a judgey pointy finger thread.

I've seen loads about smokers though.

EugenesAxe Mon 20-May-13 21:58:07

YABU because you know nothing about her situation. But I think you knew that.

Worra I have and it always massively comes down to being a discriminatory thread.

I pretty much wouldn't like to see a thread about any topic regarding what a pregnant woman should or shouldn't do while pregnant though. The smoking one is deemed perfectly fine though, along with any number of vile things said about women who do continue to smoke, regardless of circumstances.

BenjaminButton172 Mon 20-May-13 22:00:12

My sis had a planned pregnancy. She didnt even attempt to stop before, during or after pregnancy. Now she spends most of her day smoking while her child is dumped on someone else.

I will judge her all i want because she is selfish. My sister chooses to smoke. She smokes before she feeds her child even if its screaming, she smokes before she changes her child even though its nappy has leaked, she smokes before she gives her child a bath, she smokes before she puts her child to bed. She puts cigarettes before her child. I will judge because my dn is suffering.

WorraLiberty Mon 20-May-13 22:01:20

Exactly Schro

I just get the impression that some people point the finger at easy targets, because it's easier than looking at themselves.

I wonder if anyone who judges other women about what they do when pregnant actually give a damn about the health of the baby? I mean honestly?

If that was the case then Worra is right, surely there would be tons of threads about seeing women eat soft cheese, being obese and eating a mcdonalds, having a glass of wine, driving a car fucking breathing in the wrong place.

everlong Mon 20-May-13 22:08:21

That's grim Benjamin and would drive me to despair.

I don't get your point worra about those pointing the finger and not looking at themselves. Who do you mean?

BenjaminButton172 Mon 20-May-13 22:11:14

Everlong - yes it is grim. No one is allowed to say anything to precious sis. Most days i want to shake her & tell her she doesnt know how lucky she is having a child.

McNewPants2013 Mon 20-May-13 22:11:25

when was the last time you seen a poster post this.

AIBU to be outraged by a pregnant women with her toddler with chicken pox

AIBU to to disguested with a pregnant women eating KFC

Aibu to think a pregnant women shouldn't be heavy lifting.

Smoking is an easy target on a women who is going through a life changing and vulnuable time of life.

WorraLiberty Mon 20-May-13 22:11:31

everlong I mean I suspect there are/have been far more pregnant women with a BMI above 30 on Mumsnet, than pregnant smokers.

Therefore, pointing the finger at smokers instead of themselves may make them feel better?

I don't know, I'm just guessing but in everyday life I see far more overweight women than smoking women.

ArgyMargy Mon 20-May-13 22:11:47

So Benjamin, have you ever asked your sister whether she wants to stop? Most smokers do, and yet they are addicts so can't just stop when they want. I have never been addicted to cigarettes but if you asked me to never have coffee, or carbs, or sugar ever again, I would certainly struggle. I would make up all sorts of reasons why I couldn't give them up, and convince myself that they don't really do as much harm as people say they do...

WorraLiberty Mon 20-May-13 22:12:46

And McNewPants sums it up better than me blush

It's not just about women as incubators. I bloody judge dads breathing smoke all over babies, or smoking in cars with young children too.

And whilst I can think of half a dozen health professionals who would tell me I was being ridiculous if I said I felt guilty for the occasional glass of wine or coffee or soft cheese when pregnant, I can't think of a single one who would say 'a few fags? no worries, crack on love'. It's not the same.

BenjaminButton172 Mon 20-May-13 22:13:48

Argy - my sis doesnt want to stop. She openly admits it.

Startail Mon 20-May-13 22:19:35

Have you ever smoked? My DDad is the most sensible person on the planet, but he chain smoked for 55 years.

Only coughing up blood and thinking he'd got cancer made him stop (fortunately he had pneumonia)

Truly fags are evil.

I judge teens for being bloody stupid starting, but not adults finding it hard to give up.

BenjaminButton172 Mon 20-May-13 22:23:05

Startail - no i have never smoked. I did like a drink though & gave that up when i was pregnant.

Family & friends who have smoked/still do smoke agree with me.

everlong Mon 20-May-13 22:24:10

Well I'm not overweight but can't say I condone smoking in pregnancy.

Surely the issue being discussed is smoking in pregnancy not other areas in which people are addicted.

everlong Mon 20-May-13 22:25:52

You can't compare eating a kfc to smoking when pregnant. That's just daft.

The other issues have been discussed because they are also harmful but seemingly deemed acceptable or excused.

olivertheoctopus Mon 20-May-13 22:30:34

YANBU but you will get a flaming on here for being a sticky beak and being all judgey pants.

WorraLiberty Mon 20-May-13 22:31:06

Surely the issue being discussed is smoking in pregnancy not other areas in which people are addicted.

See this is what tends to happen on these threads

People ( and I don't mean you personally everlong ) will post around those talking about issues that are just as 'worthy' of judgement, rather than acknowledge them and discuss them.

Because they're far too busy pointing the fingers at smokers ( and I sometimes suspect ) not wanting to hold their hands up and admit they put their unborn child at risk themselves...by not being able/not trying to lose weight before TTC.

It's all a load of judgy bollocks, tailored to make the judge feel better about the risks they themselves might have taken.

MissAnnersley Mon 20-May-13 22:35:43

The issue is smoking whilst pregnant.

When I see a pregnant woman smoking, I see someone harming their unborn child.

I haven't read anything that would persuade me otherwise.

everlong Mon 20-May-13 22:37:05

But I think that's a bit unfair and inaccurate.

Because on this thread alone people, myself included have said they themselves smoked and gave up when they found out they were pregnant.

I didn't drink either or eat crap.

So I wasn't pointing the finger when personally putting my child at risk.

People can have an opinion you know.

WorraLiberty Mon 20-May-13 22:40:21

Yes people can have an opinion

It just makes me wonder why they don't (as a rule) tend to constantly voice the same judgemental opinion about women who put their unborn children at risk through being overweight in pregnancy.

I'll take a wild guess it's because they don't smoke or have given up before TTC.

HeffalumpTheFlump Mon 20-May-13 22:44:27

Apocolypse - I'm pregnant so yea I know that pregnant women have needs and flaws hmm but this is a step too far. Have as many flaws as you like but don't do something selfish and harm your baby.

everlong Mon 20-May-13 22:45:03

Yes maybe. And I agree that once you've been a smoker that it's always there ( well it is for me )

I loved it. Still do, when I go out.

But but but I had to give up because I wouldn't forgive myself if anything would have happened to the baby and it might have been associated with smoking.

iccarus Mon 20-May-13 22:48:54

I smoked quite heavily for around 9 years before ttc. When i found out i was pg i stopped cold turkey. It was bloody hard and the first month especially i desperately wanted a fag but didn't because i believed it was wrong. I also knew if anything happened to the baby i would always feel responsible and couldn't have forgiven myself for not stopping. Dh would have been fuming too because as much as it is my body, that was also his child.
on a separate note there was another new mum in the bed next to me when ds1 was born who was actually smoking on the ward. I was so angry that nothing much was said to her by the midwife! This was only 3 years ago btw.

WorraLiberty Mon 20-May-13 22:50:50

3 years ago in the UK or somewhere else? confused

chocolatebee Mon 20-May-13 23:00:19

I'm an ex smoker. When I fell pregnant with DD1 I stopped straight away it was hard but I did it. I did end up starting to smoke when DD1 was a few weeks old.

I tried to stop but kept failing. I then fell pregnant with DD2 and quit immediately again and found it so much easier then before I was pregnant. Dd2 is now nearly 4months old im still not smoking.

I dont smoke anymore DD 1 got diagnosed with Asthma a 8months ago. Even though i quit when I was 10weeks pregnant (when I found out) and never smoked near her i felt guilty and still do now. I might have caused her illness or made it worse. When she is struggling to breath and in hospital i want to slap myself for even smoking in the first place.

I would say YANBU

everlong Mon 20-May-13 23:05:30

Well done for stopping choc hope your dds asthma imporoves.

iccarus Mon 20-May-13 23:15:52

Worra it was uk, hospital in the north west.

EatenByZombies Mon 20-May-13 23:21:13

YABU
It's not your problem, it's hers. The are undoubtedly things you do that others would be pissed at like you are with her like;
Wearing high-heels (more chance of tripping etc)
Driving while further along in the pregnancy (Might be in a crash)
Eating certain foods
Going on MN ( grin )

Although it might be distressing for you to think of what may happen to the child, but ultimately it's up to her - she may be cutting down, which wont show.

PrettyFlyForAWifi Tue 21-May-13 09:07:34

My cousin's wife smokes. She has a blood clotting disorder which has caused pulmonary emboli and retinal bleeds. She smoked throughout her pregnancies despite this. Her poor husband has schizophrenia and really struggles with fatherhood. I cannot, cannot, cannot understand why she continues to smoke given the very real possibility that she wil
l have a fatal clot and leave her children (she's currently pregnant) motherless with a wholly inadequate father. Yes she has a fairly grim life but it astounds me that she can be so selfish.

Dawndonna Tue 21-May-13 09:24:16

it astounds me that she can be so selfish.
I dare say she feels the same way about you and your empathy bypass.
hmm

PrettyFlyForAWifi Tue 21-May-13 09:38:28

Oh believe me I am not short on empathy in any part of my life - it just scares the shit out of me that she is in danger of permanent disability/death and there will be no one to care for the children. The situation is just terrible in a number of ways, not least financially, but I absolutely think she is being selfish. Doesn't mean I don't care or understand, I do but it's like watching a slow motion car crash..

KittyVonCatsworth Tue 21-May-13 09:42:01

My 'poor' brother is a diagnosed schizophrenic, and is also a SAHD to 5, happy (and active) girls ranging from 2 to 13. He will admit, that he sometimes struggles with fatherhood (as many parents co ordinating activities, housework etc) but it DOES NOT make a wholly inadequate father. In fact, I truly admire him and the relationship he has with his girls.

Mental health issues do not make for bad parenting.

Solari Tue 21-May-13 09:50:51

Someone who cannot give up an addiction despite their own impending disability/death is in the grips of something far more powerful than the average person who can toss their lighter in the bin and never look back.

Addiction is not the same for everyone. A huge component of it is psychological. And you need enough mental/emotional resources to overcome it, which those of us who have can all too easily take for granted.

If a person is really faced with their own death, is terrified of death, and yet still continues... I would say there is much more at work than just making a bad 'choice'.

PrettyFlyForAWifi Tue 21-May-13 09:52:40

No, of course they don't - I wasn't clear. My relative is different in that he is very poorly controlled, frequent admissions, anger issues that mean he can't really do a lot of childcare, alcohol dependency which adds complications. He wouldn't be able to be a lone parent at this point in time. It's awful.

PrettyFlyForAWifi Tue 21-May-13 10:08:01

Also I am just especially pissed off today as I have had to buy her ds a new school sweatshirt while she is at home puffing away telling me she's broke. But that's another aibiu thread!

dubstarr73 Tue 21-May-13 10:21:45

Because schrowsaw-low birth weight is a documented occurrence in smokers.If ypu yourself were a low birth weight baby then you are far more statiscally likely to have a low birth weight child.
I dont think thats necessarily true.I was 3lb born full term and my ds1 was 8lb12,ds2 was 8lb 10,ds3 was 9lb 2,ds4 was 9lb 13 and ds 5 was 8lb 12.Im a non smoker who wont let anyone smoke in my house because my childrens health is paramount.Not my needs or wants they should come first.

Solari Tue 21-May-13 10:34:34

PrettyFly For what its worth, I do feel very much for you, and for the situation you are watching unfold. I can't imagine how helpless and full of anger that would make me feel.

Dub I was 6lb14oz at past term. DS was 6lb1oz after being induced at 38+2 (their dates which were changed a few times, my dates were 36+5). A growth scan estimated him being 9 and a half pounds at due date.

OwlLady Tue 21-May-13 11:03:34

was it on that skint program?

MummytoKatie Tue 21-May-13 11:30:42

I thought the whole point of AIBU was to be super judgey about everything. I remember a very judgey thread about gel nails (which personally I love - especially picked them off!)

I have a huge objection to people (pregnant or otherwise but most of them are pregnant) who smoked right outside the doors of our local delivery suite. The cloud was so strong it was like being on "Stars in their eyes". I was less bothered about their babies but didn't really like inhaling it for mine.

MummytoKatie Tue 21-May-13 11:31:52

dubstarr - the phrase statistically means on average. It doesn't mean it is always true!

OwlLady Tue 21-May-13 11:34:47

MummytoKatie, you obviously had a baby in Margate (like meshock)

MomsNetCurtains Tue 21-May-13 11:35:55

My Mum smoked ALLLLLL the way through her pregnancy with me and my sister. We are both fine. Neither is asthmatic, thick, smokes or makes her feel like crap about it.

It is not your business - nor is it anyone else's.

We know it's not ideal, but wouldn't the world be great if every one was as perfect as you undoubtedly are, eh?

YABU.

OrlaKiely Tue 21-May-13 11:44:56

Owllady - I nearly did, but ended up at the other one.

lovely girl of about 19 who was in the bed next to me kept going outside for 'some fresh air' approximately every hour and a half all day...I knew, she knew, the MWs knew it was a euphemism but no one said anything.

I guess it was her choice. Fantastic mum she seemed to be but it made me quite sad.

BamBam21 Tue 21-May-13 11:49:18

YANBU for thinking it's harmful, but YABU for judging.

I smoked when pg with DS2. I felt ashamed, embarrassed and was frequently in tears about it, but just couldn't quit. I saw the stop-smoking midwife, who gave me patches, but then she failed to turn up for my next two appointments with her and, when you have psyched yourself up to attempt to quit an addiction, that was a big blow. (I reported her FWIW) Anyway, I managed to give up for 3 weeks mid-pregnancy, but then started again and the shame, anxiety etc were huge, and reading judgey comments like the ones above would not have helped. I knew the risks and they terrified me. I never thought that my rights came above DS2. But I couldn't quit and stay quit.

I am now on day 7 of a very determined quit attempt, but I have to say that reading this thread has not helped me with my resolve. Rather, it has made me feel like an insignificant little worm who loves to harm her children. Thanks for the boost.

crashdoll Tue 21-May-13 11:51:26

No judgment on smoking in pregnancy here. Just commenting to add (the MN favourite) that anecdote does not equal data. Smokers are more likely to have low birth weight babies, you can say that you didn't but it doesn't change the facts. People should be aware of the risks, just because it didn't happen to you doesn't mean that it could happen to anyone else.

marzipanned Tue 21-May-13 11:54:04

This whole 'my mum smoked all the way through pregnancy' or 'I'm of the generation when everyone smoked' arguments are completely spurious.

If everyone just did as the previous generation did without assimilating new medical/scientific knowledge into their behaviour there would still be cocaine in Coke and doctors would still be sticking us with leeches when we got sick.

As to the obesity argument - it's actually quite difficult to conceive if a woman is dangerously obese. Furthermore quitting smoking is a matter of quitting. It's not easy by any means but it is simple. Whereas unfortunately a large number of overweight people really don't know how to lose weight (thanks to the food industry's dreadful labelling practices - but that too is another thread...)

OwlLady Tue 21-May-13 11:54:27

ahhh OrlaKiely wink My husband still, 6 years on, cannot get over the excitement at the sight of my placenta being non gritty and you can tell she didn't smoke! comments grin

marzipanned Tue 21-May-13 11:55:36

BamBam I'm very sorry the thread has made you feel that way. Even if I am on the side of the anti-smokers, I would never want to belittle anyone's attempt to give up smoking. Stay strong and I hope you last the course.

LadyBeagleEyes Tue 21-May-13 11:58:03

What a load of crap Marzipanned.
If you can stop an addiction like smoking, you can also eat healthily and lose weight.
IMO, the latter is easier, and it's nothing to do with food labelling.

Thurlow Tue 21-May-13 12:01:43

Good luck BamBam. Another one here who struggled to quit on and off throughout my pg even with support. Well done for your 7 days smoke-free, you're doing really well. Remember just to take it one cigarette at a time.

(FWIW I do agree that comments like "I quit cold turkey, so how hard can it be/If I can do, anyone can and anyone who doesn't is selfish" etc are incredibly unsupportive and have a very negative effect on people who are trying their hardest to quit)

AvonCallingBarksdale Tue 21-May-13 12:02:22

OP YANBU but as others have said smoking in pregnancy is often defended as the mother's choice on MN. It's hard but certainly not impossible to quit and I speak as an ex smoker.

BamBam21 Tue 21-May-13 12:05:06

Thank you marzi. I am very determined to succeed.

My point was that making pg women feel like scum for smoking will not help them to quit. Neither will inept HCPs. If you had seen me smoking when pg you might have judged me as being uncaring and selfish, with no idea how I felt, thereby making me feel even worse, which would just have made me smoke more

marzipanned Tue 21-May-13 12:16:36

LadyBeagle I'm afraid that's not the case. I've never been overweight so this isn't a personal thing, but I used to be on some PCOS forums and you wouldn't believe the number of women coming on saying 'oh I've seen these new low fat crisps in the supermarket, do you reckon they're ok on my diet?' And there are so many other so-called diet foods that are loaded with sugar - Special K springs to mind.

The information out there just isn't very good - see any number of the threads on the 'healthy' eating advice given to kids at school.

BamBam I mostly judge the pregnant women smoking outside the maternity hospital having a yap and a laugh while puffing away. They certainly don't appear very anxious, but you're right, I have no idea what's actually going on inside their heads.

ExpatAl Tue 21-May-13 12:33:09

Stopping smoking does not cause the kind of stress that harms a baby. To claim it does is one of the strangest justifications for poisoning a placenta and baby that I've seen. Smoking causes stress and doesn't alleviate it so there's no point in using stress as a reason.

I was a die hard smoker for years but gave up no problem when pregnant and have stayed off them. It is not hard. The addiction to nicotine only lasts a very short time which is why you get almost instantly an urge to smoke. If you smoke your last fag last thing at night, by the morning a great deal of nicotine will already be out of your system. You might have an uncomfortable few days but that's all. Just do it.

MummytoKatie Tue 21-May-13 13:44:52

Owllady - no! Seems there is someone standing outside every labour ward so that we can all emerge through the fog saying "Tonight Matthew I'm going to be 7cm dilated!"

WorraLiberty Tue 21-May-13 14:36:53

As to the obesity argument - it's actually quite difficult to conceive if a woman is dangerously obese. Furthermore quitting smoking is a matter of quitting. It's not easy by any means but it is simple. Whereas unfortunately a large number of overweight people really don't know how to lose weight (thanks to the food industry's dreadful labelling practices - but that too is another thread...)

That's making excuses and passing the buck completely.

No-one mentioned 'dangerously' obese anyway.

If you have a BMI of more than 30 and you are pregnant, you have an increased risk of health problems for both baby and mother.

Blaming the food industry is ridiculous, it doesn't impregnate women does it?

If women are to be expected to give up smoking before they TTC, they should be expected to lose weight too.

One shouldn't be pointing the finger at the other.

Whereas unfortunately a large number of overweight people really don't know how to lose weight

You could use that same argument for smokers.

KellyElly Tue 21-May-13 14:50:22

As to the obesity argument - it's actually quite difficult to conceive if a woman is dangerously obese. Furthermore quitting smoking is a matter of quitting. It's not easy by any means but it is simple. Whereas unfortunately a large number of overweight people really don't know how to lose weight (thanks to the food industry's dreadful labelling practices - but that too is another thread...) Smoking is a matter of quitting...yes... and losing weight is a matter of eating less calories and exercising more in most cases.

ApocalypseThen Tue 21-May-13 16:20:18

HeffalumpTheFlump, I am not now, and have never been, a smoker. But I also do have some empathy with other women who are more than walking wombs.

EatenByZombies Tue 21-May-13 16:28:58

If you have a BMI of more than 30 and you are pregnant, you have an increased risk of health problems for both baby and mother.

Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.
Know why you're wrong?
Because you mention BMI. BMI is a trend that's actually not a proper measurement of how overweight someone is. Even the inventor of BMI said that it wasn't an acurate measure. Rugby players who are obviously NOT overweight have BMIs that claim they're morbidly obese because it doesn't allow for things like muscles.

Anyone who mentions BMI as an argument for something is vastly uninformed, and the argument is invalid.

HeffalumpTheFlump Tue 21-May-13 16:40:35

Appocolypse - why was that aimed at me? You told made a comment about something I said making out that I have no idea that pregnant women have flaws, wants, feelings etc. I pointed out that this was obviously not true as I am a pregnant woman myself... Why are you now telling me about whether you have smoked or not? hmm bit of a pointless comment to be honest!

crashdoll Tue 21-May-13 16:42:12

Eaten I guess there must be lots of female rugby players who are pregnant then.

KittenCamile Tue 21-May-13 16:48:15

My DP and I have been ttc our first DC for nearly a year, I quit smoking, caffine, white sugar and booze. DP also quit smoking, all before we started ttc. I hate seeing pregnant women smoking, as someone who would do anything to get pregnant I think its very selfish.

I quit and I smoked 20 a day, somethings are more important

MomsNetCurtains Tue 21-May-13 16:49:13

marzipanned It's a fact. NOTHING went wrong; we are all fine. smile As are most of the people born in the late 70's/early 80's.

My Mum bathed me every 3 days when I was a baby, not every day which seems to be the will of new Mums now; I am NEVER ill as I have a strong immune system. My MIL is a nutritionist and is amazed that I am never sick.

I KNOW why I don't get sick, as does my Mum. I have not been molly coddled and neither has my immune system.

MY Mum smoked, so bugger off with your 'Oh this could happen or that could happen crap'.

Seriously. It's getting old.

All you 'new Mums' sound like eejits to me with your determination that you know better than your own Mothers.

Shame on you for that. The best Mums are our own ones who told you lot of new Mums to pull your heads in.

<oh dear>

MomsNetCurtains Tue 21-May-13 16:50:31

marzipanned You just brought up cocaine?

Oh do shut up. FGS.

EatenByZombies Tue 21-May-13 16:54:44

crashdoll I never said that, it was an example of why BMI doesn't work so don't try and twist it hmm My point was that BMI is a load of bollocks so to base an argument on it is silly. BMI can be used as an indication but it's not set in stone, so to say that ANYONE with a BMI over 30 is prone to blah blah blah is wrong.

Kitten Sorry but just because you would do anything to get pregnant doesn't mean everyone else feels like that.

Why would you give up white sugar and caffeine? Is that not going a bit far?

EatenByZombies Tue 21-May-13 17:02:34

To clarify: BMI wasn't even invented by a dietician or medical expert, it was invented by a mathmaticion/statistican. It is not clear where on the BMI scale the threshold for overweight and obese should be set, and the medical establishment has acknowledged major shortcomings of BMI.

Not only athletes are misrepresented, Tom Cruise, with a height of 5'7" and weight of 201 lbs, has a body mass index of 31.5, while the younger Schwarzenegger, at just over six feet tall and about 235 pounds, had a BMI over 31.

below 18.5 = Underweight
18.5 to 24.9 = Ideal
25.0 to 29.9 = Overweight
30.0 and above = Obese

www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/public/heart/obesity/lose_wt/risk.htm#limitations

www.maa.org/devlin/devlin_05_09.html

MomsNetCurtains Tue 21-May-13 17:03:02

Utter utter shite being advocated by women who think they are the first women who have given birth.......give me a break!

WorraLiberty Tue 21-May-13 17:07:20

Anyone who mentions BMI as an argument for something is vastly uninformed, and the argument is invalid.

Including the NHS EatenByZombies?

www.nhs.uk/conditions/pregnancy-and-baby/pages/overweight-pregnant.aspx#close

And by the way, I'm arguing...I'm taking part in a discussion.

handcream Tue 21-May-13 17:07:36

Maybe she puts her needs before her unborn child. I am getting more and more surprised about people on MN who start to excuse people's behaviour right up to when they kill their own children as somehow its not their fault and WE as society have let them down by not supporting them.

Smoking is known to be harm to an unborn baby. There is tons of support and it is a known fact. Yet - still people carry on...

KittenCamile Tue 21-May-13 17:08:46

SchroSawMargeryDaw I know what your saying but it is how I feel.

I am happy to do anything I can get help us have a DC, white sugar is processed and very bad for you. Its quite common for women to give up caffine to help ttc, its not great for fertility.

WorraLiberty Tue 21-May-13 17:09:09

Oh and I should add

IMO bmi is far too generous as a rule

Unless the old 'athlete' argument gets put forward again

MoominsYonisAreScary Tue 21-May-13 17:17:00

Agree with worra (again)

Having a bmi over 30 while pregnant increases the risk of complications
Smoking while pregnant increases the risk of complications

You very rarly see a thread berating an over weight pregnant women eating a cake in the street though.

MummytoKatie Tue 21-May-13 18:18:51

Eaten Are you sure BMI isn't used as a measurement? It's been filled in on my pregnancy notes. And I'm pretty sure the midwife said "good healthy BMI there" when she calculated it.

MomsNetCurtains Tue 21-May-13 18:21:36

Look at it. Just look at it. Just look at all of you/us. ALL PANICKING OR ARGUING AMONGST YOUR/OURSELVES.

The whole bloody MN thing. It is awful. And we are all smart, funny and clued-up women. What is with the bitchiness?

It is shocking. I am shaking my head.

By God, I would love to go back to the 70's or 80's without this one-up-man ship. Women with a common goal arguing amongst themselves - this is what men have wet dreams over.

Sorry if I seem a bit meh, but I have just realised that this is an utterly shit forum as women DO have a common goal - to be respected and to respect each other - but that this forum is SHIT at acknowledging it.

It becomes nasty as we have no other outlet.

But what other forum is there, eh?

I despise the whole petty/crappy arguments that go on here.

And about smoking....dear God....who cares?!

I don't care! The only reason I am on here is because I want to be close to other females who are like me.

I couldn't give a crap about smoking.

THERE. I've said it. Fuck it!

KingRollo Tue 21-May-13 18:23:08

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Solari Tue 21-May-13 18:24:13

BMI is still used. Despite the negative lashback against its shortcomings (which pretty much every test applied to the population has), it is far more generally accurate than inaccurate when it comes to categorising people into groups with worse/better outcomes.

Solari Tue 21-May-13 18:25:28

I found that very cathartic reading momsnetcurtains smile

crashdoll Tue 21-May-13 18:45:37

"it was an example of why BMI doesn't work so don't try and twist it."

grin

I was agreeing with you on one point which is that it doesn't work....for athletes! Don't get your knickers in a twist because I called you on your silly point. As a general rule, BMI gives a guide for the average person.

flanbase Tue 21-May-13 18:51:18

smoking is a known health hazard & it affects the smoker & people around them negatively & in pregnancy affects the baby. This is medically known so why people continue to smoke in pregancy or when they are parents I don't know. It's just so selfish to do this.

MomsNetCurtains Tue 21-May-13 19:02:51

And breathe......

King and Solari I could hug you both right now. I was just having a rant really; I didn't expect anyone to understand or even know what I was on about!

smile

WorraLiberty Tue 21-May-13 19:08:28

MonsNet, dramatic much?!? grin

This is as discussion forum and we're discussing something.

"By God, I would love to go back to the 70's or 80's without this one-up-man ship. Women with a common goal arguing amongst themselves - this is what men have wet dreams over."

I have no idea what men you're talking about, but most of the men I knew back then would knock one out to a porn magazine.

Not to women stating opposing views grin

JamieandtheMagicTorch Tue 21-May-13 19:16:14

Momsnet

how does that all fit with your Klay thread then?

MomsNetCurtains Tue 21-May-13 19:23:58

No I'm not dramatic Worra. Quite the opposite in RL. But you wouldn't know that as you don't know me. smile

I'm aware this is a discussion forum, hence why I felt quite open about having a wee rant; I had a moan as it felt as though women were constantly against each other on here and as it turns out I wasn't the only one who felt that way.

Jamie What has my thread on the diabolical naming of a child got to do with anything? Have I attacked someone?

If I have I am unaware of that?

On the plus side, the pair of you have just proved my point about MN and the females that frequent it constantly. I'm looking at you Worra. grin

OrlaKiely Tue 21-May-13 19:31:57

Well yes you've attacked someone on the other thread, just for the record....! Did you not realise?

(coming into this a bit off the cuff, fwiw - I don't know what you're all arguing about)

WorraLiberty Tue 21-May-13 19:45:28

I have proved your point by discussing your post on a discussion forum? confused

Are you saying that women have to agree with other women just because they both have vaginas? Because that's how it's coming across.

Do you agree with Coleen Rooney's choice of name/spelling? No you don't. In fact if I remember rightly, you stated 'poor kid' at one point and yet you're both women.

As much as I don't agree with the OP pointing the finger of judgement at a pregnant woman she knows nothing about, I actually think this thread has thrown up an interesting debate.

There has been no nastiness/name calling....just discussion and opposing views.

That's why your post came across as dramatic.

crashdoll Tue 21-May-13 19:56:21

MomsNet If you don't care, then don't post. Given your rant, I'm guessing you actually do care.

EatenByZombies Tue 21-May-13 20:18:36

I never said it wasn't used. I said it's not accurate. Although the athlete argument is overused, it's true. My given example uses actors. Tom Cruise is not and has never been obese during his time on screen so how do you explain that one? BMI uses a fixed formula and does not take different variables into account like muscles and adipose tissue in relation to the rest of someone's body.

To be honest, people can believe what they want, but when the creator himself says it's not accurate and one shouldn't rely on BMI alone then I think we should listen to him hmm

As I also said, BMI is an indicator. Nobody's wrong for saying "people with a BMI of over 30 are more likely to have problems with XYZ during pregnancy" or "people with a BMI of over 30 are often found to have problems with XYZ" or anything else that points to the fact that that category is often faced with certain problems, but it shouldn't be used alone because it's not accurate enough. The fact that the NHS has it on forms doesn't mean it's any more credible. There are, and will always be, people who believe it works. There are, and will always be, government bodies and institutes that use it, and that's fine. But the NHS don't rely on BMI alone to tell someone whether they're obese or not.

BMI is not accurate enough to lean on solely as evidence for obesity which is why I thing the previously mentioned argument is invalid because it's not drawing on proper medical evidence, but a formula thought of by a statistician.

smile

EatenByZombies Tue 21-May-13 20:19:42

Why I think, rather

WorraLiberty Tue 21-May-13 20:34:46

I know what you're saying EatenByZombies but to put it bluntly and to leave the BMI out of it...the nation is getting fatter and fatter and many of those people are pregnant. Being fat and pregnant can cause risks to both the baby and the mother.

Being pregnant and smoking also causes risks.

I didn't want to be this blunt blush

EatenByZombies Tue 21-May-13 21:18:06

Yes! I have coaxed a blush from Worra ! My day is made! grin

As an intelligent, slightly overweight fat person, I'd rather people just came out and said "overweight"/"fat" people than base stuff on BMI, because my BMI would put me into the obese category, even though my doctor says I'm not, I'm just a little bigger than average. The word obese gets thrown around a lot these days and it annoys me because obesity means having too much body fat. It is not the same as being overweight, which means weighing too much, because a person may be overweight from extra muscle, bone, or water, as well as from having too much fat. People seem to think the two words are interchangeable.

(I also understood what you were trying to get at smile )

WorraLiberty Tue 21-May-13 21:29:32

I shall give up trying to be polite...it never did suit me! grin

ArgyMargy Tue 21-May-13 22:25:44

Why has Momsnet spelt her name wrong? Are you American, Momsnet?

KhaosandKalamity Wed 22-May-13 15:35:40

YANBU to be mad about it, I think it would be hard not to. But there is sweet FA you can do about it so YABU to dwell on it. I once knew a woman who figured because she gave up coffee and booze then she could smoke as much as she liked, her mother is a doctor. Not much to do but shoot them a massively disappointed look, guilt trips from strangers can work. I was inspired to quit by a young boy (4 or 5) who walked past (I had tried to hide my ciggy and blow the smoke away from him because I hate letting kids see me smoke, even strangers) and said to his mummy "that lady is smoking, she shouldn't do that it will kill her" blush

qwertymclate Wed 22-May-13 16:39:27

It fucks me off when I see it. I often wonder if those same women would tag a big drag of a fag and blow it into a newborns face, probably not, but that's essentially what they are doing if they smoke when pregnant. It's disgusting.

qwertymclate Wed 22-May-13 16:47:22

take not tag.

I used to smoke and it's rubbish that you can't give up.

marzipanned Wed 22-May-13 21:11:34

momsnetcurtains you say we should do as our own Mums did. My Mum smoked for 20 years and gave up as soon as she and Dad started TTC my older brother. So, what's your point?

I don't know anyone who gives their babies a bath every day, except one couple whose baby adores the bath. Not sure what bathing has to do with this argument though.

I'm glad that you and your siblings are all fine, but trying to dispute the fact that there is an enormous amount of medical evidence that smoking in pregnancy harms the baby is slightly delusional.

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