Won't some please think of the bigots!? <clutches pearls>

(60 Posts)

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10067062/Gay-marriage-could-stop-Christians-becoming-teachers-or-doctors-church-leaders.html Here.]]

Bigots may be put off from working in certain careers for fear that if they share their bigoted views whilst carrying out their job, it will not be tolerated.

The poor dears!

Well that was blush. Here!

DesperatelySeekingSedatives Mon 20-May-13 10:57:22

Surely if it stops bigots becoming teachers, HCP etc it can only be a good thing? confused

Obviously have no issue with christians working in those roles. I know plenty of people who belong to one religion or another who are NOT bigots.

Exactly what I am thinking, why should someone be denied the right to marriage because a bigot can't keep their trap shut when working in a professional role.

You're perfectly entitled to your beliefs, you're NOT entitled to discriminate against others based on those beliefs.

cory Mon 20-May-13 10:59:46

Funny how they never worry that traditional marriage will put atheists off becoming nurses, doctors, teachers etc.

Especially as practising Christians are probably a minority in this country, and bigotted Christians are a minority among practising Christians.

As a married woman I expect to be able to go the surgery as Mrs Cory without getting a lecture on the immorality of the marriage service by any atheist nurse who may be taking my blood pressure or peering up my backside. So I don't see why this isn't a reasonable expectation of any bigotted Christian who may be working in the same surgery.

jacks365 Mon 20-May-13 11:00:42

Do I want a bigoted teacher teaching my children their views? No. Do I think a doctor should refuse to treat someone due to bigotry? No. If they can't leave their personal views at home they have no right to be in the job.

Exactly Cory, I know a lot of anti-theists who work in professional roles. They would never lecture anyone about the evils of their religion, as they see it, because it's not part of their job and it's none of their damn business.

Flobbadobs Mon 20-May-13 11:01:58

They should change the headline from Christians to bigoted arseholes. I know many Christians (including a vicar) who aren't bigots.

somebloke123 Mon 20-May-13 11:03:31

"Do I want a bigoted teacher teaching my children their views? No."

The thing is though that to label anyone who does not share your views or world-view as a bigot is in itself a fairly blatant display of bigotry.

Very true as well Flobbadobs I know a lot of gay Christians, I know straight Christians who support gay rights, I know Christians who personally don't like homosexuality but don't think it's their place to judge anyone or deny them rights, I even know a Muslim who supports equal rights. Religious != a bigot.

'The thing is though that to label anyone who does not share your views or world-view as a bigot is in itself a fairly blatant display of bigotry.'

If you're homophobic, you're a bigot. Are you actually accusing people of being bigoted against bigots? hmm

OddBoots Mon 20-May-13 11:05:15

Anyone more bothered about restricting the rights of others to live as they wish than about how they live their own lives is choosing to remove themselves from society and the jobs therein.

CloudsAndTrees Mon 20-May-13 11:05:39

Shouldn't people in any profession keep their personal opinions to themselves anyway? Whether their opinions are bigoted or not is irrelevant surely, being professional in many jobs means doing the job without bringing your own personal opinions into it.

Very true Cloud.

I'm also interested why they think it's a free speech issue if people aren't allowed to express their bigoted views whilst working. Would it be a free speech issue if a work place fired someone for calling their clients 'cunts' to their face, why is it a free speech issue if they're fired for saying that a person's homosexuality is a sin?

MarmaladeTwatkins Mon 20-May-13 11:07:54

SomeBloke, go and look up bigot in the dictionary. hmm

Making a stand against bigotry is what decent people do.

cory Mon 20-May-13 11:08:32

I am happy for my children to be taught by teachers who do not share my views.

But if they are so wedded to their views that they cannot contemplate taking a job where their view is not the only one allowed (which is basically what we are talking about here), then imho that makes them bigotted.

That is what we are talking about here. Not about whether it is allowed to be a Christian in the workplace- of course it is!- but whether not being allowed to impose your views on others counts as persecution.

somebloke123 Mon 20-May-13 11:11:01

Crapswith bears

You're begging the question.

You are simply asserting that someone who has a different view to yours is a bigot.

Many people believe, whether from religious reasons or not, that homosexuality is wrong. I personally disagree with such people. However they are entitled to their views provided they don't try to impose it upon others.

There are also some who, though not homophobic, do not think that the term "marriage" can apply to same-sex couples. Again they are entitled to their views and to express them.

MarmaladeTwatkins Mon 20-May-13 11:11:02

To some people, the right to speak bile about persecuted minorities is worth more than the right of those minorities.

It makes me want to opt out of being a human sometimes.

cory Mon 20-May-13 11:11:05

Those who think it is persecution if Christians are not allowed to express their views on other people's sinfulness, would presumably also think it persecution if the other people weren't allowed to express themselves freely on the subject of Christian beliefs?

jacks365 Mon 20-May-13 11:12:17

Fair enough then I'm a bigot. I have a problem with people who want to restrict other peoples rights due to age, gender sexual orientation, race etc.

I still don't want my children teaching that it is ok to treat someone differently because they are gay or any other reason.

If you believe homosexuality is wrong, you're homophobic, whether they try and impose them on others or not. When did I ever say they are not entitled to that opinion? They are entitled to their opinion and I'm entitled to call it homophobia, which it is.

If you don't think that gay people should be allowed a marriage, you're homophobic. Period.

That message was to somebloke obviously.

I do hate headlines about what "Christians" do, specially when the article eventually mentions that it is one particular group of church leaders who think this - not even a reasonably representative group.

If people cannot separate their own views from behaving politely and even-handedly to others then they should pick a line of work where that isn't going to be a problem.

cory Mon 20-May-13 11:15:08

"You are simply asserting that someone who has a different view to yours is a bigot.

Many people believe, whether from religious reasons or not, that homosexuality is wrong. I personally disagree with such people. However they are entitled to their views provided they don't try to impose it upon others."

Yes, but the link we are discussing is not about that. The worries of the reverend archbishops, pastors etc are that Christians will feel persecuted if they are not allowed to impose their views on others.

Binkybix Mon 20-May-13 11:15:38

Somebloke - yes, they are entitled to their views. I query whether they should have a right to express them in a professional capability. They can go for it in their personal life, obvs, as long as they're prepared for those views to be countered.

I think that asserting that gay people should not be allowed to marry is trying to impose your views on others.

MarmaladeTwatkins Mon 20-May-13 11:17:35

"If people cannot separate their own views from behaving politely and even-handedly to others then they should pick a line of work where that isn't going to be a problem."

I agree.

Conversely, I don't agree when people in a profession use their religion as a reason for abstaining from necessary parts of the job i.e the midwives who refused to carry out work pertaining to abortions, on the basis of their religion.

If your views, due to religion or even just personal beliefs, prevent you from performing your job well, you leave.

somebloke123 Mon 20-May-13 11:17:55

Yes *crapswithbears". obviously.

Your position can be summed up as:

What I say is true because it is and anyone who disagrees is a bigot.

Period.

End of.

Obviously.

That is all.

cory Mon 20-May-13 11:18:35

Me too, MumInScotland. And even more do I hate news stories where Christians in the West, surely one of the most cosseted groups in humanity, whine about being persecuted. It reflects on all of us.

Persecution that's what Nero did to the martyrs, it's what the Nazis did to the Jews, what the Buddhists are doing to the Muslims in Myanmar. It happens to Christians too, in some parts of the world.

It is not the same as saying gently "MrsCory the students don't really want to hear your personal views". Christians ought to know that.

'Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT). It can be expressed as antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, or hatred, and may be based on irrational fear.'

My god, yes, it's just me.

Please explain to me how thinking homosexuality is wrong is NOT homophobia.

MarmaladeTwatkins Mon 20-May-13 11:20:47

Dictionary definition of bigot: "a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance"

You're being ridiculous, SomeBloke. And you probably know it.

Also, please explain why denying people the right to the same legal rights straight people enjoy is NOT homophobia.

cory Mon 20-May-13 11:22:14

When you take on a professional role you accept certain standards. I cannot for instance tell a student that I find him attractive. This is not persecution or refusing me to express my sexuality, it is simply part of how you behave as a professional: you cannot express yourself fully in a professional role. People who have a problem with that shouldn't take this kind of job in the first place.

Lovecat Mon 20-May-13 11:22:48

There was an utterly ridiculous woman (Grassroots Tory) on R4 yesterday saying if the Gay Marriage bill went ahead she didn't even know if she'd be allowed to call her husband her husband any more and as for her children, how was she meant to bring them up properly when marriage clearly no longer meant anything...?

I can kind of see where the 'swivel-eyed loons' statement came from.

The likes of Britney Spears, Katie Price et al have been far more insulting and damaging to the ideal of marriage than, say, Elton John and David Furnish.

I'm Catholic. I don't feel I have the right to impose my views on others (unless of course they ask for a debate) and in the course of my job it just wouldn't occur to me to do so. Whilst bigots are entitled to their views (I'm fairly bigoted about religious fundamentalists), they are not entitled to force those views on others. Why is that hard to understand?

ComposHat Mon 20-May-13 11:24:52

If people cannot separate their own views from behaving politely and even-handedly to others then they should pick a line of work where that isn't going to be a problem.

Agreed!

Abra1d Mon 20-May-13 11:28:28

'Conversely, I don't agree when people in a profession use their religion as a reason for abstaining from necessary parts of the job i.e the midwives who refused to carry out work pertaining to abortions, on the basis of their religion.

If your views, due to religion or even just personal beliefs, prevent you from performing your job well, you leave.'


My mother was a midwife. As a Catholic she could not help carry out abortions. Back in the more liberal (seriously) times she worked, this was never an issue. How ironic that those who are bigot witch-hunters think that it is acceptable to bully people like this now.

Binkybix Mon 20-May-13 11:29:51

That women on R4 was outrageous! I was shouting at the radio (too much time on hands whist on mat leave).

Asking people to keep their personal views personal and do their job, is now classed as bullying apparently. hmm

cory Mon 20-May-13 11:33:11

I am sure there are plenty of jobs for midwives even today which do not involve carrying abortions, but I would say that the onus is on the jobseeker to make sure the job they apply for is one they can carry out without compromising their conscience.

Dawndonna Mon 20-May-13 11:34:00

ad hominem argument isn't really an argument, is it Somebloke

Abra1d Mon 20-May-13 11:34:23

No, telling midwives they should 'leave' if they can't carry out abortions is bullying. Quite different from telling them to keep personal views personal.

ubik Mon 20-May-13 11:34:27

I think nurses and midwives have always been able to opt out of aspects of their work according to their conscience - ie contraception, abortions, pre/post counselling etc

The difference in the midwives case quoted above was that the midwives wanted to stop caring for women who had undergone abortion full stop which does seem unreasonable to me.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 20-May-13 11:35:31

It's PC gorn mad wink

ubik Mon 20-May-13 11:37:35

there story was here

"NHS GGC, which is contesting their action, said it recognised their right not to participate in terminations under the terms of the Abortion Act.

But it maintains that it decided correctly that requiring them to delegate staff to nurse women undergoing medical terminations and to supervise and support staff undertaking that duty was lawful."

It seems these midwives were unwilling to delegate staff to care for the women having terminations.

hmm

ubik Mon 20-May-13 11:38:01

sorry 'the' story -

Abra1d Mon 20-May-13 11:38:07

So, not caring for them AFTER they'd undergone abortion? Oh, see what you mean, that is a bit different, yes.

cory Mon 20-May-13 11:38:47

"No, telling midwives they should 'leave' if they can't carry out abortions is bullying. Quite different from telling them to keep personal views personal."

Has this actually happened though? My understanding is that the midwives wanted to stop providing aftercare after an abortion.

In which case, would you expect a teetotal nurse to refuse to stitch up someone who had fallen over whilst drunk? Or a pacifist nurse to refuse to care for a soldier? Or a nurse who believed in chastity refusing to treat STDs?

Abra1d Mon 20-May-13 11:38:48

Sorry, crosspost there--yes not delegating staff doesn't seem reasonable to me, either.

cory Mon 20-May-13 11:39:47

Sorry cross-posted. Even less defensible then; they wouldn't organise for others to provide for the care they didn't want to provide.

I'm having visitors over to see my DD, so I'll be back later.

infamouspoo Mon 20-May-13 11:40:23

beat me too it Fanjo wink

cory Mon 20-May-13 11:40:58

It's like so much of this Christian persecution shouting: when you look into it you find somebody behaving like a prat. As far as I understand it that is not the face of a martyr.

Mindyourownbusiness Mon 20-May-13 11:53:18

Cory

'As a married woman I expect to be able to go the surgery as Mrs Cory without getting a lecture on the immorality of the marriage service by any atheist nurse who may be taking my blood pressure or peering up my backside'

Where should l send my claim for a new keyboard?

grin grin

There's a really depressing magazine/newsletter thing that we get sent, from a group called something like Barnabas, whinging about how Christians are being persecuted in certain countries. I read the first one that arrived, because I think yes that does happen, and it's important. But then I read through some of their examples - would you believe a Christian was being "persecuted" for standing up in a mosque in an Islamic country and telling people about his beliefs? In a f*ing mosque! If a Muslim stood up in a church in this country and did that, he'd be hustled out and the police called if he wouldn't go quietly. Would they count that as persecution? - somehow I don't think so.

Makes you weep.

Specially when there genuinely are people being persecuted for their beliefs, and they all get lumped together with the prats because there are just so many noisy prats shouting in the tabloids about how terrible it is that they can't be as rude to people as they used to.

Mindyourownbusiness Mon 20-May-13 11:59:02

Could have been worse, DH treated us really as it is all shiny and new and winking at me himself to a lovely new ipad yesterday and l was thinking of test running it for him today. grin

ubik Mon 20-May-13 11:59:44

"It's like so much of this Christian persecution shouting: when you look into it you find somebody behaving like a prat. As far as I understand it that is not the face of a martyr"

yy^ to this

I wish I had a 'like' button.

Mindyourownbusiness Mon 20-May-13 12:03:18

shiny new tablet sorry (you can see why it would be wasted on me !)

MarmaladeTwatkins Mon 20-May-13 12:10:23

"My mother was a midwife. As a Catholic she could not help carry out abortions. Back in the more liberal (seriously) times she worked, this was never an issue. How ironic that those who are bigot witch-hunters think that it is acceptable to bully people like this now."

Bullying?!

I am SICK of this word being bandied about when what it is actually referring to is nothing of the sort. It undermines ACTUAL bullying, IMO.

The case I was referring to... the catholic midwives were not asked to carry out the termination procedures, but to provide care before/after the procedure, which they refused to do. Ridiculous.

Abra1d Tue 21-May-13 13:06:07

You didn't actually refer to the case in detail: actually I agree with you in that instance.

But bullying can and sometimes does involve intimidating people (ie, by threatening them with the loss of a job).

cory Tue 21-May-13 14:23:54

Bullying can take many forms.

Threatening the loss of job is one.

Though there it would seem to depend on whether the demands of your employer were reasonable or not. A Muslim male academic who refused to work for a female HoD would be threatened with job loss and no reference to religion would save him. If I had refused to teach the student I knew to be a neo-Nazi, I would have been threatened by job loss, and quite right too.

But certainly threatening job loss can be a form of bullying.

Screaming loudly that you are persecuted when you are not can be another one.

Circulating false tales of PC and persecution can be another (cf. the famous Wintervaal story which still resurfaces every Christmas).

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