to demand a child is excluded from school?

(165 Posts)
Tubemole1 Fri 17-May-13 23:12:54

I will try and keep this as brief as poss. My daughter is in Y1 and one of her classmates, a boy, often harrasses her. She has been pinched and hair pulled during carpet time and put in a headlock during playtime. I have asked for this boy to stay away from my daughter and her teacher has made efforts to do so.

Today, the same boy attacked four girls. He bit one on the neck and drew blood. Another girl was bitten on the arm five times, no blood. My daughter was attacked as well but she managed to escape with no injury. Obviously my fellow mums and I are outraged. Nothing was done to discipline the boy, so he can't grasp the enormity of the fallout of his actions. My daughter, certainly, was left shaken, trying to make sense if it. This boy has a fascination with vampires, but we all wonder what has he seen to act this way?

I am all for complaining to the school, but dh wants our daughter to just kick him in the balls if he tries again. What message will that give, when she has to fight back to survive?

My daughter is a toughie, and can defend herself, but she bottles up her true feelings. The teacher doesn't see that she's upset, because she only lets it go when she's home, and we have a blubbering child needing our care and understanding. Is it unreasonable to ask the school makes sure our kids are safe thru the day, and this boy is either excluded, or has some sort of intervention?

Euphemia Fri 17-May-13 23:15:17

YANBU to seek assurances from the school that they are dealing with the matter, but you can't demand an exclusion. There are procedures and processes to be followed.

gordyslovesheep Fri 17-May-13 23:15:29

oh for the love of cheese - talk to the school - find out what happened, find out what was and is going to be done - take it from there

and hug your dd x

Cloverer Fri 17-May-13 23:15:41

You can't ask for the boy to be excluded (and how can you know if he has been disciplined today?) but you can definitely insist on a meeting with the head to find out how they are going to safeguard your daughter.

Kicking him in the balls is too much, but I would tell you daughter she can defend herself by pushing him hard enough that she can get away, yelling and running for an adult.

hedgefund Fri 17-May-13 23:16:49

maybe the message if she fights back would sort out his problem and hers??

to suggest an exclusion in year one is crazy

GoblinGranny Fri 17-May-13 23:16:52

The school aren't handling whatever his needs are correctly, go and complain about that and point out they are failing in their duty of care to all of the children involved.

Jinsei Fri 17-May-13 23:16:55

You can't demand that the boy is excluded, but you can demand that your dd is properly protected, and ask how the school is going to do this.

How do you know that the boy wasn't disciplined?

Jinsei Fri 17-May-13 23:17:55

X post!

mousebacon Fri 17-May-13 23:19:54

YABU to think you can demand what action the school takes over this incident.

YANBU to ask to discuss the matter with the HT. I would want to know what actions have been put in place to ensure this level of violence cannot happen again. The HT has no responsibility to discuss with you what actions she has taken with the boy and his family.

complexnumber Fri 17-May-13 23:23:19

I'm not sure a kick in the balls will have that much of an impact on a Y1 boy.

MaureenMLove Fri 17-May-13 23:27:16

It's not that easy to just exclude a child from a school. I do think you have right to speak to the school with your concerns, but don't expect to be told what is happening with the boy, There will be something happening, but they are not at liberty to discuss it with you.

There may be all sorts of safe guarding issues surrounding the boy that have to be dealt with sensitively. And no, it doesn't seem fair from the outside, but I'm fairly certain the school will be taking it very seriously indeed. Sadly it's unlikely that it'll be instant, but it will be dealt with in my experience.

SuperStrength Fri 17-May-13 23:28:15

Start looking for a new school. Bitter experience has taught me that good schools & teachers would be horrified by this sort of behaviour & would be making sure that it wasn't happening.
In the mean time,make sure she knows it's ok with you that she does what she needs to do to stay safe, if that means throwing a punch or two, so be it.

OhLori Fri 17-May-13 23:34:36

Honestly, I don't trust the schools reaction. Drew blood? Jeez. You could try talking to the headteacher but in my experience its like Fort Knox as they are only concerned with their OFTSTED status. You can get more antsy and angry, but you will be labelled a trouble-maker. OTOH if you can deal with that, more power to you.

If there are a few parents that are angry about this, can I suggest getting together and having a meeting with the school? That way, you outnumber the Head teacher 3-1 or whatever, and you can get some action. Nobody wants to witch-hunt a child, but I think schools are so spineless now they'll put up with anything for a quiet life.

SuburbanRhonda Fri 17-May-13 23:34:47

super, do you really think the OP should move her child before she's even tried some of the good advice given upthread?

SuburbanRhonda Fri 17-May-13 23:36:49

shock at "outnumber the head teacher 3-1"

Booyhoo Fri 17-May-13 23:37:19

how do you know the boy wasn't disciplined for attacking four other children? is it just what your daughter told you because the school cant actually tell you what happened to another child.

emstats Fri 17-May-13 23:40:08

I think she should kick him in the balls

Booyhoo Fri 17-May-13 23:40:40

a decent head teacher wont be bullied by 3 mothers ganging up on them. they'll do the right thing for all the children involved. and if they aren't a decent head teacher then do you realy want your child going to that school.

Tubemole1 Fri 17-May-13 23:41:16

On Monday I may calm down a bit. I will team up with the other mums and discuss what to do next.

In defence of husband, he is from the school of hard knocks attitude, having had a vastly different education and upbringing from me. My daughter has tried to complain in the past about this boy but the teacher was unsympathetic and told her not to tell tales angry .

Still angry sad .

MaureenMLove Fri 17-May-13 23:41:59

Yeah, that's the best idea. All stand in front of the Head Teacher and tell her how it is. hmm

Ultimately, its not up to the Head Teacher! You'll need to find the address of the Governors and agencies involved with this child, of which there will be at least one!

Speak to the school about your concerned and ask for reassurance that this boy is being dealt with.

EatenByZombies Fri 17-May-13 23:42:27

I second Mousebacon.
thanks for DD x

CloudsAndTrees Fri 17-May-13 23:43:25

Just because it may appear that the boys hasn't been punished, that doesn't mean he hasn't. They can't tell you what is going on with other pupils, and they can't just do what a demanding parent asks of them. This child has a right to an education too, and he is still very young himself.

It sounds like the child does need intervention, but this can't just be plucked out if thin air. It takes time, reports have to be written and funding has to be found. Obviously there are things the school can do without help from outside agencies or the LA, but it's not as simple as just 'making sure it doesn't happen' with a child stuck in a big class who has complex needs.

Do put your concerns in writing and detail exactly what has happened, and encourage other parents to do the same. This will help if the school are trying to get help from the LA, and it will help ensure they stay on top of the problem and give you a response.

I'd teach your dd to shout loudly at this boy before telling her to kick, and see if she can recognise when the boy is starting to get aggressive o she can tell an adult or at least go and stand near one before anything happens. If she ends up being violent and hurting another child, expect her to get the same punishment that you are hoping this boy is receiving.

Booyhoo Fri 17-May-13 23:43:26

i wonder what people would recommend doing to boys if they didn't have testicles hmm what do you 'ball kickers' tell your dcs to do to girls who attack your babies?

FFS kicking him in the testicles is an appalling thing to teach your child to do.

LittleMissLucy Fri 17-May-13 23:43:38

The school is legally responsible for the safety of the children enrolled. If there are physical attacks taking place then you are entitled to meet with the Head and seek reassurance that measures are put in place to ensure this safety. How they decide to go about it is their decision and really, so long as you get the result you need, you don't actually need to know what they are saying to the violent boy's parents, or the boy.

Goldmandra Fri 17-May-13 23:47:27

You have every right to ask what is being done to keep your DD safe.

You don't have the right to dictate what will happen to another child.

You don't know the exact circumstances of the incident and you don't know how the staff responded. You only know a small child's interpretation of the events.

Ask for a meeting with the Head Teacher, find out what really happened and make sure that the injuries have been recorded.

You could ask if a risk assessment has been carried out and what future actions will be taken to prevent these events occurring again. It sounds as if the child concerned needs support for unstructured parts of the day.

Make it clear that any further injuries to your child will trigger a complaint to Ofsted because you don't feel that the school is safeguarding her effectively.

Finally be prepared to accept that your child may also have been in the wrong.

OhLori Fri 17-May-13 23:50:31

Unscrupulous headteachers eat lone/individual parents complaining about genuine issues for breakfast; perhaps that is just my personal experience. But then again, look at the concurrent thread on a teacher wanting to resign regarding a violent primary pupil. Yes, try and get support from other parents. If you have an open and honest approach you'll get the gist of where the school is coming from, in the way they deal with this. But I would (from my own miserable experience) suggest having some back up or at least a witness. And put it out of your mind till Monday and have a great weekend.

seeker Fri 17-May-13 23:51:35

who told you the details of what happened?

zipzap Sat 18-May-13 00:02:02

Just remember to take your own meeting minutes and send them to the head and other mums there. Also include your own reactions to the meeting in a separate section; eg if you still dint think the head is treating it seriously. and finish with a summary of the actions that you would like the school to do, even if in the minutes (making sure it is more about things like protecting your dc from boy, making sure they are aware that he is being punished (even if they don't know details) so they can see that everybody does get punished for bad behaviour plus to reassure them their fears about this child and their injuries are being taken seriously.

And then copy them to the governors, the local education office at the council and Ofsted and see what happens...

LetsFaceTheMusicAndDance Sat 18-May-13 00:13:01

How do you know what action has/hasn't been taken regarding the incident?

Why not find out before you go into school in a gang with all guns blazing?

Though I understand the rage you feel re your child, you will not get the best result for her by ranting and raving and organising a witch hunt.

handmedownqueen Sat 18-May-13 00:14:02

As the mum of a year 1 boy with autistic spectrum who hurts other children occasionally can I suggest its probab ly a bit more complex? I'm horrified if he does hurt someone and do everything I can to make him undertand its wrong and to have a consequence but ultimately the key is equipping him to recognise when he is getting tense and angry and communicate that which is difficult at 5
He needs to be kept safe from hurting others by his 1 to 1 support as do the other children need to be kept safe
Ultimately he has the same statutory right to an education and has been assessed as needing 1 to 1 support in mainstream but a small classroom with 30 kids is challenging. Yes other kids must be protected but if my son was excluded what then? He's extremely bright and needs mainstream, the private sector wouldn't have the skills for him and he is too bright for statementing to a special school. Give up work and home educate? Or do what the specialists suggest and work with him to manage in mainstream. Please try to understand that as I'm sure the boy in your example has similar needs

OhLori Sat 18-May-13 00:19:11

Nobody should go in "with all guns blazing", I don't think anyone suggested that or a witch-hunt. But neither does one want blood drawn in the classroom on one's child or other children dismissed as normal or acceptable hmm. I am sure OP will be able to glean what is going on. Try not to lose your temper, watch, listen and observe (sighs, but I honestly hope you have a good result!).

LetsFaceTheMusicAndDance Sat 18-May-13 00:29:33

I'm sure you can't mean that I would wish it to be dismissed as normal or acceptable hmm

OhLori Sat 18-May-13 00:35:38

I have no idea. Schools seem to operate by their own undeciperable rules now, to do with various agendas and agencies. Even if you have a straightforward problem IMO it can become a "PC" issue or whatever. I don't trust head-teachers or even teachers to have normal standards, but perhaps that's from my own experience.

GoblinGranny Sat 18-May-13 07:42:44

'I don't trust head-teachers or even teachers to have normal standards'

I started off teaching in a lovely, leafy area of the country, with the majority of the population just like me in values and income levels and wotnot.
Then I moved to a polar opposite, with levels of poverty and unemployment, undx SN and neglect and parents of 15 and 16 the norm and a level of brutality in dealing with problems that I'd only read about as cases.
When I moved again, I was more able to spot the times when in my lovely. leafy area there were similar situations of neglect and poverty and stress and abuse and SN lurking underneath the smooth surface that was all I'd seen in my first few years of teaching.

Normal standards compared to what you think is normal limits them to your own experience. Schools should be working within the many guidelines we have to safeguard and meet the needs of all the children they are responsible for.
As I said in my first post, whatever this child's needs they are not being met, and you should go in and meet with the school head and insist that they act more effectively.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sat 18-May-13 08:00:09

Yes exactly.. 'guidelines to safeguard and meet needs of all the children they are responsible for' is how it should be.

This is not making it a 'PC issue', ohlori.

I think you should talk to the school, OP, no idea how you know he wasn't disciplined at all.

seeker Sat 18-May-13 08:05:37

"But neither does one want blood drawn in the classroom on one's child or other children dismissed as normal or acceptable ."

What a very bizarre thing to say!

FanjoForTheMammaries Sat 18-May-13 08:09:28

Yes,I think it's fine, give them all wee knives so they can fight it out.

winkgrin

headlesslambrini Sat 18-May-13 08:15:12

if your DD kicks him in the balls, in self-defence or not, then you may find that it's your DD who gets excluded, and rightly so.

seeker Sat 18-May-13 08:15:37

I agree. It's PC gone mad, I tell you.

JakeBullet Sat 18-May-13 08:27:15

Your poor DD flowers.

Firstly I would say that YANBU to ask the school what they are doing to keep your DD safe. Yes this other child MAY have some undiagnosed SN but this is the school's issue and if he is "a loose cannon" then he needs appropriate support which will allow other children to be kept safe. My DS is autistic with ADHD and in Y1 he bit another child (for the first time ever) and I was mortified. To the achool's credit they identified that he needed much more supervision at break time to help him understand and recognise his emotions. Now in Y5 he is an old hat at this and has his own beanbag in one of the offices where he can take himself off to calm down.

I think in regards to other parents it's up to each parent to write in individually and ask how their children are being kept safe. All this is "evidence" for the school to take to the LA and ask for extra support for this child. Not only will you be helping the school, you will be playing your part in helping keep children safe. School's CAN and DO exclude children where the safety of other children is compromised, but in practice this is only for a few days while they make plans for reintroducing the child with appropriate support.

Our school excluded a Y3 child who was like this...he was subsequently diagnosed with ADHD. He was excluded for three days and in that three days the school had got the LA involved and the boy was reintroduced three days later with 1-1 support. He is now on medication (we are two years down the line) and is well settled in school....more importantly there are now no incidents and he is a valued member of the school.

Definitely speak to the Head, he/she may well not be able to tell you details about this other child but CAN tell you how your DD will be kept safe.

GoblinGranny Sat 18-May-13 08:34:34

I've taught older children who were aggressive and biters and hitters.
Children from large families with negligent parenting, used to fighting for turf.
Children with alcoholic or drug-abusing parents
Children with violent parents.
Children who had abused backgrounds in so many ways.
Children from over-indulgent parents who were not used to being crossed or thwarted in any way.
Children whose parents encouraged them to see what they wanted was the priority and they were to go for it through any obstacle
This list could be twice as long, and include SN as only on of the many possibilities.

The school needs to deal with all of their children.

greenformica Sat 18-May-13 08:44:19

Write to the school and formally ask what action has been taken?

LIZS Sat 18-May-13 08:45:12

You can't tell them how to do their job ! You don't know what the boy's background or needs may be and have no right to know what action may be happening behind the scenes .However you can present it in terms of the right of your children to be safeguarded and secure while in the school's care. Check the safeguarding and behaviour policy. All you can do is request reassurances to that effect and document the meeting.

Inertia Sat 18-May-13 08:55:45

You don't have the right to demand that the child is excluded - you don't have the right to know what action the HT has taken.

However, your daughter is entitled to be kept safe at school.

I would write a letter to the Chair of Governors and HT, copying in the class teacher and LA person with responsibility for safeguarding, explaining that the school is failing to safeguard your child. I would list all the incidents and resultant injuries and medical treatment required, and I'd suggest that the other parents do the same. This isn't spite - the school needs vast amounts of evidence to get extra support for children, and it sounds as though this child needs one to one support.

Retaliation is likely to get your daughter into trouble as well, and could escalate the situation with this boy. Personally I don't see how people justify using violence to demonstrate that violence is wrong - and it makes it very difficult for you to take your argument about lack of safeguarding any further if your DD responds with violence. Perhaps you and the school can agree about what she should do if she is attacked (e.g. loudly shouting " Get off me Boris!" to instantly draw the teacher's attention? )

Sunnymeg Sat 18-May-13 08:58:08

I too think you can learn a lot about the child from

Sunnymeg Sat 18-May-13 09:01:45

I too think you can learn a lot from observing the child's parents. But it does sound to me like a child who is struggling for some reason and striking out because of it.

HollyBerryBush Sat 18-May-13 09:02:12

One pertinent point is over looked here. No school will discuss another child with you, sanctions or otherwise, any more than they would discuss your daughter with another parent.

Sunnymeg Sat 18-May-13 09:02:37

whoopz

scaevola Sat 18-May-13 09:05:21

In OP she says she knows action is being taken, because the teacher has been making efforts to keep them apart.

If despite extra vigilance, attacks are continuing, then she needs to ask for even more supervisory measures to keep her DD safe, and every other child in the class. But shouldn't expect any information on the school's intervention with a pupil to whom she is unrelated. Even if the additional supervision is not yet sufficient, it is in indicator that the school is acting.

No, don't tell DD to fight back. Because it complicates things for DD (she may get in trouble for fighting too, and that might upset her further). Also, the basic point that if your child doesn't fight, then the chances of her retaliation being ineffective are just too high. If she fights back and he laughs, or attacks harder and wins, then she will be in a much worse position, especially if she is thus humiliated in front of classmates.

Do NOT club together and go en masse to the head - that's an awful way to manage it. That happened in ds3's class. There were some issues in the classroom but the letter was horrible (& actually ridiculous - I spend my life dealing with challenging behaviour & what they were demanding was bonkers). I was asked to sign, refused & told the letter writers & head what I thought of the letter. There were some children in the class who needed extra support but a group of year 3 parents clubbing together to complain about particular children was just bullying IMO & I wanted nothing to do with it. It was very divisive.

Go & see the head yourself to talk about your dd (and let the other parents do the same - individually). That's a perfectly reasonable thing to do, expecting good communication is also reasonable - you can expect the school to keep you informed. But clubbing together is rarely helpful IMO.

mrsmindcontrol Sat 18-May-13 09:14:44

I have a yr2 boy with complex ADHD who has repeatedly hurt other children & been suspended approximately 12 times in the almost 3 years he's been at school. Obviously I am mortified each time there's an incident. The school, educational psychologists, myself & various other professionals are working behind the scenes to work out why he behaves this way & find measures to stop it but its HARD, it's so very very HARD.
My son is incredibly bright & as such, because his education is not falling behind, he doesn't qualify for a statement if special educational needs which would allow him funded 1-1 support.
However, lunchtime supervisors 'shadow' him in the playground etc etc.

I'm sure your violent reaction to this boy is bourne out of your natural desire to protect your DD but please, please, stop to think about the fact that the boy himself may be suffering very greatly and that a huge amount of work may be going on behind the scenes to deal with his behaviour. Without wishing to sound melodramatic, I live in perpetual fear of my son or I being challenged physically by the parents of one of the children he has hurt. It's horrendous.

Much love to your DD x

Oh informed up to a point - so informed about your dd. they shouldn't tell you anything much about the boy.

OwlinaTree Sat 18-May-13 09:16:09

But they don't needed to give details of how it had been dealt with. They can reassure it has been dealt with.

I would speak to the school again but keep calm. Ask about what is being done to safeguard your child as you are concerned about violence on the yard. Unfortunatly many of these incidents happen at lunchtime when teachers are not on duty in the main, but your school should have some systems to support children during this time.

Good luck, hope things get better

lljkk Sat 18-May-13 09:35:18

The girl needs to have a pretty big meltdown exactly when things upset her. I'm not endorsing violence, but OP is right to think that her DD is taking it too quietly, staff will go on child reactions to decide how severe the behaviour is, if OP's child shrugs it off of course staff don't realise what impact the behaviour is having, how could they?

And yes I have been on other side, DS was pestering a girl but teacher didn't seem to take it seriously, and when I asked why the girl didn't shout at DS to stop so that teacher realised how much of a pest DS was, the mother said "Oh no, she wouldn't do that, she doesn't want to get in trouble!" confused

Send her to Judo, OP, best thing I ever did to teach DD to stand up for herself. The psychology alone is worth it.

AThingInYourLife Sat 18-May-13 09:37:56

"if your DD kicks him in the balls, in self-defence or not, then you may find that it's your DD who gets excluded, and rightly so."

You think a child should be excluded from school for defending themselves when attacked by another child? confused

lljkk Sat 18-May-13 09:41:03

If they aren't excluding the lad for repeated biting the girl won't get excluded for a single self-defensive kick.

Poor lad, must be really screwed up.

SuburbanRhonda Sat 18-May-13 10:01:13

MaureenMLove what exactly do you mean by your advice to the OP to "find out the address ... of the agencies involved with the child"?

You are in danger of advising OP to make an utter fool of herself.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sat 18-May-13 10:10:50

The day I tell a 5 year old to kick a 5 year old wee boy in the balls...

Well..there wouldn't be such a day.

Midlifecrisisarefun Sat 18-May-13 10:14:20

Years ago a boy with ADHD targeted my DD, she had physical attacks and eventually an 'inappropriate touching' incident. The boy's mother told anyone who would listen about the boys problems in the playground.
After the last 'issue' I went to the HT and demanded action. They gave me the 'can't discuss the child' line. I bluntly gave them two options 1) We discussed his problems and worked together and got a good outcome for both children or 2) Or I would develop the 'He was a little **' and what were they going to do about him attitude, I would escalate to Governors, LA, local MP....Which did they want?
I gave them time to speak to the childs family....The mother approached me...we discussed together with HT...actions were put in place, I was able to give DD coping strategies.
It turned out he 'liked my DD very much'. He just didn't know how to behave round her.
Now, they are both in their early 20s and still in touch.

Manyofhorror3 Sat 18-May-13 10:36:02

*AThingInYourLife Sat 18-May-13 09:37:56
"if your DD kicks him in the balls, in self-defence or not, then you may find that it's your DD who gets excluded, and rightly so."

You think a child should be excluded from school for defending themselves when attacked by another child?*

Are you seriously suggesting that EVER hurting a little boy's genitals is acceptable? Seriously? These are tiny children!

LadyMaiBlossom Sat 18-May-13 10:38:38

YABU

Your dd was not hurt, no mark was left and was this the first event?

Why exclude a 5yo when you can work through his issues with the school?

You first need to talk to the teacher and find out what happened.

Timetoask Sat 18-May-13 10:41:47

mrsmindcontrol
"The school, educational psychologists, myself & various other professionals are working behind the scenes to work out why he behaves this way & find measures to stop it but its HARD, it's so very very HARD."

Is your child on medication for ADHD?

AThingInYourLife Sat 18-May-13 10:48:13

"Are you seriously suggesting that EVER hurting a little boy's genitals is acceptable? Seriously? These are tiny children!"

Are you suggesting that EVER biting someone's neck until you draw blood is acceptable?

Seriously, these are tiny children.

Either the kid should be excluded for attacking his classmates, or it's OK for them to fight back.

I can't see why his precious genitals need to be protected at all costs but the other children just have to suck it if he bites them until they bleed.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sat 18-May-13 10:49:40

AThing. Glad you are not a teacher.
Well hope not anyway.

mrsmindcontrol Sat 18-May-13 10:51:28

Timetoask, yes, he's been on atemoxetine for 2 years but he's about to start a trial without it as it doesn't seem to be having a significant effect. He's not especially hyper, more impulsive so not sure whether Ritalin would be appropriate.

AThingInYourLife Sat 18-May-13 10:52:45

"The day I tell a 5 year old to kick a 5 year old wee boy in the balls..."

I wouldn't tell them to either.

But I still don't think a child should be excluded for defending themselves from a child who was assaulting them.

It's pretty messed up to think that children can't be excluded for causing physical harm ti other children, unless it was done in self-defence confused

thebody Sat 18-May-13 11:01:58

Mrsmindcontrol, your post is very compelling.

I work in a school that has several children like yours and incidents happen.

Of course when a child is bitten or slapped you desk with it immediately. We have measures in place to deal with this of course.

But my ultimate sympathy is with the ADHD child.

They are not in a wheelchair or blind but they are just as disabled for life and their parents have a very very rough row to hoe, again for life.

Inclusion is all now. Parents and schools have little choice and funding is not always available for one to one shadowing of a child.

Of course I feel for your dd and yes you need to teach her strategies and of course complain. But don't all gang up in this family. Believe me they will have it far far tougher than you.

AThingInYourLife Sat 18-May-13 11:03:12

I have worked as a teacher, and no way would I have been moving to exclude a child who kicked another kid in the genitals in self-defence while they were being assaulted.

Would anyone?

I'd love to be at that tribunal.

And there would be a tribunal.

Imagine explaining that one to a 5 year old

"You mustn't kick Johnny, that is very, very naughty."
"But Johnny was biting me, I was scared."
"No, you must never kick anyone. Even if they hurt you very, very badly. It was very wrong and now you can't come to school any more."
"Can Johnny still come to school?"
"Yes"
"confused waaaaaaaaah! That's not fair!"

Take away message:

"Next time little girl, be the one to do damage first. Then nobody can touch you."

FanjoForTheMammaries Sat 18-May-13 11:06:26

AThing. That doesn't make it right though.

AThingInYourLife Sat 18-May-13 11:13:24

Doesn't make what right?

It's not right to tell your kid to kick another child in the balls

But nor is it right to tell children that they just have to put up with being seriously and regularly attacked by their peers as the price of their education.

Inclusion shouldn't mean putting children in danger.

A dangerous child either needs to be shadowed, or removed.

If we can't afford the resources to keep children safe from assault by their peers, we can't afford inclusion.

mrsmindcontrol Sat 18-May-13 11:14:20

thebody thank you. Your post made me cry. My poor boy has had a very tough life so far. Thank you for your compassion & understanding.

mrsmindcontrol Sat 18-May-13 11:15:30

AThing, I suspect you're right but we can't afford constant shadowing or inclusion so WHAT is the answer cos sure as hell, tit for tat is certainly not it.

thebody Sat 18-May-13 11:23:03

Mrsmind, I honestly had no real idea until I worked in a school.

Tough for you families and of course for your child. Really tough.

I agree so much with inclusion but of course it's not about helping children and families its about saving money. some children need constant shadowing and help and its just not available.

Unfair to all. Xx

hackmum Sat 18-May-13 11:26:41

Much as I sympathise with the "kick him in the balls" approach, it's a bad idea for two reasons. One is the very real likelihood that it will go wrong, DD will try to kick him, and he will hit back all the harder. The other is that DD loses the moral high ground. The boy will just say "But she tried to kick me" and the teacher will say "Oh, it's six of one, half a dozen of the other" and then not listen to any of the OP's complaints.

I think this is a hard one, because if the school isn't disciplining the boy, and if they aren't doing anything to protect other children from him, then they really sound pretty ineffectual. So yes, complain as a first step - in fact I would write a joint letter to the head, as they can't ignore a letter, and take it from there. But if you don't get satisfaction, you may have to withdraw your DD from the school. Nobody should be sent into an environment where they are at risk of physical harm.

Holly said that the school will never discuss what they are doing with another child. Not true, ime. At my DD's last school, classes were continually disrupted by a girl who was often physically violent. I emailed the school about her, expressing concern that other children were at risk. The deputy head phoned me up and we had a long conversation in which he said the girl was having anger management sessions with a counsellor, her behaviour was improving, and in his view there was no danger to the other children. I eventually removed DD from the school anyway, not just because of that girl, but because of the school's generally feeble response to dealing with bad behaviour.

donkeyfoot Sat 18-May-13 11:26:43

Totally agree with Athing.

I think their should be some sort of 3 strikes and you're out rule.
My son was beaten to the ground, threatened to be stabbed with a pair of scissors, attacked in the playground so bad that we took him to hospital with concussion and vomiting.

The mother was called in daily because this child has problem. While i feel for this boy that he will have to struggle daily everyday for the rest of his life, i feel like i should be able to send my children to school without worrying if they're going to come home bruised.

All children need to be protected. All children have the right to an education.

DesperatelySeekingSedatives Sat 18-May-13 11:31:54

"Today, the same boy attacked four girls. He bit one on the neck and drew blood. Another girl was bitten on the arm five times, no blood. My daughter was attacked as well but she managed to escape with no injury."

Firstly, where are you getting your information from? If its from 5/6 year old children I really think you should take a lot of it with a huge pinch of salt. Children do embellish a lot after all. However if the above is indeed all 100% true do you honestly think this boy has not been dealt with at all?! Of course he has! But theyre not going to share with the baying mob pissed off parents of the other kids how theyve managed the situation.

As for kicking the other kid in the balls- thats not acceptable either. You should never tell a child to do that to anyone, ever. Be careful how much vitorol you have for this boy, despite what hes done. He may well end up getting the blame for all the bad behaviour in that class whether he is to blame or not. It doesnt take long for other children to realise how much blame they can heap on each other and get away with it.

AThingInYourLife Sat 18-May-13 11:32:11

mrsmind - I think we need to start from the place that is is unacceptable for children or teachers to be assaulted at school.

Then we decide what can be afforded.

It would still be more expensive to exclude children with a history of violence, so we'd be talking about "we can't afford to provide special schools".

Nobody should ever be allowed to use cost as an excuse for leaving children in significant danger of assault.

The hand wringy "oh nothing can be done" about this drives me bananas.

All children have the right to an education without fear of assault.

That's a pretty basic thing to ask for.

Saying it is too expensive to supervise children you know pose a threat and just leaving them to hurt other children is utterly immoral.

The kids that get most hurt by this attitude are poor kids in deprived areas who are often educationally disadvantaged to start with.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sat 18-May-13 11:33:22

Am stepping out of this thread if it's going down road of kicking 5 year olds in balls and excluding on cost grounds.

Don't feel like huge bun fight today.

Timetoask Sat 18-May-13 11:37:25

mrsmindcontrol Thanks for replying to my question. If he has been on the same medication for 2 years without improvment, then I think your doctor has let you down.

At most 6 months should be enough to decide weather to change course.

My ds is also on medication and we have seen improvement.

Good luck with finding the right medication and the right dose. Also, I recommend you get an assessement done by and OCCUPATIONAL therapist who specialises in sensory integration.

LIZS Sat 18-May-13 11:38:23

Would agree that it seems unlikely he could have attacked 4 children in succession without an adult witnessing or intervening especially if at least 2 needed attention.

op , Nothing was done to discipline the boy, so he can't grasp the enormity of the fallout of his actions. You don't actually know that as fact. Speak to teacher/head on Monday but the focus of the conversation should be your dd and how this has made her feel.

seeker Sat 18-May-13 11:43:31

And we still don't know where the OP got her information from.

I find the biting a child's neck until he drew blood quite hard to believe, for one thing.

DesperatelySeekingSedatives Sat 18-May-13 11:49:29

grin Seeker the sentence I've quoted above sounds exactly like something my 5 year old and her best friend would tell me. I dont believe a lot of what they tell me. Its not because I think they're lying (or mean to lie) but children IME dont always tell the entire truth of an event exactly how it happened. They embellish.

Yanbu at all, I bet your poor dd is at her wits end with his constant nastiness. I think schools need to do more to tackle bullying.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sat 18-May-13 12:04:47

Do not form a gang with other parents.

Go in and tell them of your concerns about your daughter, and that you feel more needs to be done to protect the other children in the class and to address this boy's behaviour for his won sake as well.

seeker Sat 18-May-13 12:08:56

But don't go in all guns blazing until you're sure you've got the whole story.

BigBlockSingsong Sat 18-May-13 12:17:14

My toddler DS is going through a punching phase and is having HV/LA intervention in nursery...

I'm struggling to believe a child drawing blood in Y1 has not been disciplined at all,

You haven't mentioned if you have ever approached the boys parents?

AThingInYourLife Sat 18-May-13 12:17:43

"WHAT is the answer cos sure as hell, tit for tat is certainly not it."

Well, it shouldn't be it, certainly.

But if we're saying to parents that we can't afford to keep their children safe, and they should expect physical assault from pupils with behavioural problems as a matter of course, some of those parents are going to encourage their kids to fight back.

If we accept violence in our schools as a fact of life and allow people to use the cost of adequate supervision as the excuse, we need to be aware that we will very soon lose control of the situation.

The idea that inclusion is too costly is bullshit. It was a money-saving wheeze in the first place.

But regardless of costs, the idea of including children who lose risks to their peers without adequate supervision to minimise that risk is dreadful.

The attitude of some seems to be that inclusion is an unalloyed good and that any (deprived) children who suffer physical injury and fear to keep it going are acceptable collateral damage.

It baffles me.

flanbase Sat 18-May-13 12:23:02

Actually biting and braking the skin can cause infection. This boy needs to be told he will be excluded if he can't behave respectfully to others. The parents need to know that their child is a danger to others and they need to address this. You could write to the school to say that this child is a danger to your daughter and you want him to be kept away from her

Kleinzeit Sat 18-May-13 12:24:49

Go ahead. It wont do any harm. It probably wont get him excluded but complaints from parents do put a rocket up the school, and you might get some reassurance that they’ll protect your DD.

Why would a Yr1 not get excluded? I was told in no uncertain terms in Yr1 that if we didn’t agree to get my DS psychologically investigated and provided with appropriate support then he would have to be excluded. As it happens the threat was unnecessary, we were as horrified and worried as the school were, but they wanted to make sure we understood how serious the problem was. But it still took time. DS was on a waiting list for months, and the help wasn’t in place until the start of Yr 2 – and that was an emergency case for support!

AThingInYourLife Sat 18-May-13 12:30:33

BigBlock - I think that's pretty unusual TBH

I don't think that level of assistance is available everywhere.

Are you happy with what they are doing? Is it helping?

I don't know many toddlers who haven't been through a hitting or biting stage, although I presume his must be more prolonged, or serious.

Having help from someone who was an expert in childhood behaviour for early issues sounds very expensive. And potentially amazing.

MidniteScribbler Sat 18-May-13 12:34:15

Wow some pretty horrible people on this thread. Encouraging five years old to kick children in the genitals?

Most people have absolutely no idea what goes on behind the scenes when coordinating the care of children with additional needs. You will blindly go along in your own little bubble never seeing the constant meetings with parents, meetings with specialists, intervention sessions, ongoing planning, meetings between staff, and the times when a parent is crying on your shoulder because it all has just become too much. You probably don't realise just how often that child is being constantly shadowed in the classroom and the playground, and how many incidents are actually diffused and avoided because of intervention. But teachers are humans too, and when we're on playground duty, it's about a ratio of one teacher to 100-150 students. I've got eyes in the back of my head, but not 150 of them.

You want to protect your child? Then start lobbying your government and representatives for more funding to provide aides and additional support in the classroom to help children with additional needs. Exclusion is NOT the answer. Appropriate funding and support to help all children get a good education is.

AThingInYourLife Sat 18-May-13 12:41:01

"DS was on a waiting list for months, and the help wasn’t in place until the start of Yr 2 – and that was an emergency case for support!"

angry

This is the kind of stuff that gets savaged when cuts come.

It's less visible than upping ratios or cutting budgets for interactive whiteboards.

But it is absolutely crucial to a successful education system.

It is unacceptable that a little boy with a need categorised as an emergency should have to wait months for help.

I suppose part of the problem is that unless or until your child needs this service you don't realise that it is inadequate.

AThingInYourLife Sat 18-May-13 12:43:00

"Exclusion is NOT the answer."

Sometimes it is.

You can't really think that no school should ever be allowed to exclude any pupil?

hackmum Sat 18-May-13 12:48:54

The very least you can expect from a school is that it will keep your child safe. You hope that they will also educate them and teach them social skills, but the absolute bare minimum you can expect is that they keep your child safe. If they're not doing the bare minimum, then you've got a serious problem.

Midnite says there may be a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes, but that doesn't help the OP or the other parents. All they care about is that their children aren't being physically assaulted. Corporal punishment is banned in schools - a teacher who hit a child even lightly would be sacked and possibly taken to court. Why, then, should parents turn a blind eye to physical assault from another child?

MidniteScribbler Sat 18-May-13 12:49:07

I think excluding children in early childhood is nothing more than a failure of imagination. There are many, many other ways of addressing behaviour than simply excluding a child. I'd rather a child in my classroom, learning and working with them to understand appropriate behaviour, than sitting at home playing computer games and learning nothing.

CloudsAndTrees Sat 18-May-13 12:49:25

Why would a Yr1 not get excluded?

Because they have a right to access education as well, even if their behaviour is extreme.

I find the biting a child's neck until he drew blood quite hard to believe, for one thing.

Me too, and in my experience of working with children of this age, 'bleeding' often means a red mark. That's not to say that children are lying, but their perception of things isn't the same as an adults. Of course I'm not saying red marks from biting are acceptable, just that it probably wasn't as extreme as it was made to sound.

A Thing, I agree with your sentiments, but funding can't be found to help deal with every single problem there is in schools. Budgets are limited, but that doesn't mean we can't afford to provide support where it's needed. It just means that evidence of need has to be provided, otherwise teachers would be able to claim they need an extra TA, more school counselling sessions and interventions at the drop of a hat. There are many children that would benefit from these things, but that doesn't mean they can just be provided without evidence.

MidniteScribbler Sat 18-May-13 12:52:17

Why, then, should parents turn a blind eye to physical assault from another child?

They shouldn't, but they also shouldn't take matters in to their own hands and form a posse to demand that someone else's child is publicly flogged. Make sure the school is aware of the issue, accept that you may not be given full details of what really is occurring behind the scenes, and be prepared to follow up if things don't change.

mrsmindcontrol Sat 18-May-13 12:58:46

Midnite, I do understand your point but on most of the occasions my son has been excluded I've been in agreement with the schools decision. Put simply, when it reaches a stage where he has attacked other children, staff & school property, scaled the fence and is taking up 2 staff resources to restrain him, what other choice do they have?
I think they could be better at stopping these incidents before they escalate to that stage but you're often talking about split second impulsivity & without permanent 1-1 support, it's just not possible to head every incident off at the pass.

I should say that I totally agree with all of you who say that all children have the right to be schooled safe from attacks. I'm not defending my son (or any other child's) actions in hurting their peers, I'm just saying that its often way more complex than just a case of bad behaviour.

Oh, and Time, my son has had occupational therapy assessment & has been diagnosed with sensory processing issues but am waiting for that to tie in with the other work we're having done in terms of treatment. And to thebody, yes, I do feel incredibly let down by CAMHS (his drs), so much so that I've made an official complaint.

MidniteScribbler Sat 18-May-13 13:07:07

mrsmindcontrol, I think it's entirely different when a parent agrees that it may be in the best interest for the child to be out of the school environment. I see the term exclusion as more of an arbitary "we don't know what else to do with you, so go away for a while" type thing. I also don't believe that it should be done because some other parents go up to the school and demand it.

marriedinwhiteagain Sat 18-May-13 13:09:47

Hmm. Have only read the first and last. All a bit odd. My DC in the infants only had to bump their knee and there was a note in the bookbag and anything more serious involved a conversation initiated by the school.

I would be minded to drop a note into the office on monday saying: I am concerned about an incident that happened last week and it's impact on my daughter. I would like and appointment with the head of key Stage 1 to discuss my daughter's progress, where I feel support might be required and to rceive your assurances that steps are being taken to ensure the safeety and early achievement of my daughter.

IloveJudgeJudy Sat 18-May-13 13:10:03

I haven't read the whole thread as it's very long.

We were in the same position. I would seriously discourage you to go en masse with other parents to sort this out. You also cannot insist on a DC being exclude. All you can concentrate on is your DC's wellbeing. If the school ask your DC to move, I would strenuously argue against this. Your DC is the victim so shouldn't have to change their behaviour unless they are teasing the bully.

You can only talk about your DC. It will not go down well if more than one go at the same time to talk about the bully. You can go individually. You cannot insist on any punishment. You can insist on your DC being kept safe.

I hope it goes well, whatever you decide.

hackmum Sat 18-May-13 13:18:18

ILoveJudgeJudy: "You cannot insist on any punishment. You can insist on your DC being kept safe."

I agree with this. A parent can't just demand that a child is excluded. It's entirely reasonable to ask for a guarantee that the school is doing everything it can to safeguard other children, though.

I don't entirely agree with your point about the other parents. Of course they don't need to go "en masse". However, they can all sign a letter together, which will demonstrate that it's not just one difficult parent making an unnecessary fuss. And I would always always put something like this in writing so the head can't pretend it hasn't happened or try to rewrite history.

Wuldric Sat 18-May-13 13:18:51

<rolls eyes>

BigBlockSingsong Sat 18-May-13 13:21:53

there is suspected SN,

they waited a while before talking to me, because he had been content mellow for while doing really well, and then it started tenfold was more concerning.
like an overnight change.
BUT a member of staff who I don't usually get feedback from took me to one side and said 'I want you to know its not just DS some of them do provoke him because they know how he reacts'.
It was a relief but also angry
That some antagonists are potentially getting off scot free, and I have noticed bruising.
I wonder how many of those kids mothers are sat at home thinking poor dc being assaulted by DS! with heads firmly in the sand.

GoblinGranny Sat 18-May-13 13:33:58

We used to call it bear-baiting, it happened frequently to my DS in primary.
He never started a fight, his aggression was always a response.

Mumsyblouse Sat 18-May-13 13:56:57

I wouldn't sign a letter with other parents, who knows what their children said, did, you just deal with your child. Do what marriedinwhite said, make an appointment, don't get cross, just very business-like about it, go in, and discuss this and ask for the action plan. If not satisfied, make it clear you will escalate to the governor, write/enclose bullying policy in letter.

Just be very clear that your child needs to be safe in school and that is something they have to ensure.

Mumsyblouse Sat 18-May-13 14:00:04

And- kicking is not very likely to deter this boy if he's that aggressive, is it?

Wuldric Sat 18-May-13 14:05:15

This thread is total insanity. I can only suppose that you have not got older children. You are over-reacting hugely. I have three points to make.

1. I don't like the gang mentality. Neither will the school tbh. You have yourself admitted that your daughter 'escaped with no injury'. Which translates as, was not hurt. If other people's children have been hurt, then the action is up to them to take. Your child was not hurt.

2. These things pass. They do honestly. I was horrified when DS came home bloody and bruised from an encounter with a boy I thought was a thug. The boy in question had suspected SEN. Three years on, those two boys are the very best of friends. Develop a sense of scale and proportion.

3. Let your daughter be the judge of how to handle this. I know it's scarey, but she probably does know how to deal with this. DS just punched the boy who hurt him. It worked, it's fine.

Wind your neck in and stop being a pain in the arse to the school, your daughter and the boy in question.

ouryve Sat 18-May-13 14:07:12

By all means, express your concern to the HT that your DD isn't being listened to, when she complains of being hurt by this boy.

But, you have no idea how he was really dealt with - if he was dealt with properly, it most likely was not a public flogging. And, you have no right to demand that he is excluded. That is just ridiculous.

Viviennemary Sat 18-May-13 14:10:04

This school does not seem to be handling this situation. You are entitled to protect your child from attack. And if the school won't then send a letter to the local authority saying you are not satisfied with the level of protection your child is getting from the school and what do they intend to do about it to prevent a child being injured. And a copy to your MP and Ofsted. You don't have the right to dictate what happens to another child but you do, in my opinion, have a right and duty to protect your own child as a parent.

Wuldric Sat 18-May-13 14:16:21

Involving the HT, the governors, the LEA and your local MP over a primary school spat?

You are totally insane. Really, just get a sense of proportion.

mrsmindcontrol Sat 18-May-13 18:09:44

Hear hear Wuldric, it's hysterical PFB type behaviour like that which means I'll never be a teacher or indeed rest easy while my son is at school.
FFS, some people need to get a grip.

Nanny0gg Sat 18-May-13 19:07:28

Primary School Spat? Hardly.

The OP should go in calmly to the HT and ask what can be done to make things safe for all children (including this little boy).

I wouldn't be discussing it with all the other parents. That way witch hunts start.

When you get your answer from the HT, then take it from there. And ask for the school's safeguarding policy too.

LadyMaiBlossom Sat 18-May-13 19:46:10

Its sad that so many adults are willing to give up on a five year old child and encourage more violence in return.

Viviennemary Sat 18-May-13 22:02:06

I don't think it is an over-reaction. If this sort of behaviour is not taken extremely seriously and absolutely and firmly nipped in the bud at the youngest age then a culture of bullying will flourish. Children should not be hurt and terrorised by other children and their lives made a misery.

Viviennemary Sat 18-May-13 22:06:09

And just to add that also goes for the children that do the antagonising as this does happen too. The school should be dealing with it.

EldritchCleavage Sat 18-May-13 22:12:32

Odd to suggest a child up the ante with a violent child. Violent children are likely to be quite skilled at violent escalation. So the Op's DD kicks him, he becomes uncontrollably violent in response and hurts her quite badly. Who's won then? And has any valuable point been made?

mrsmindcontrol Sat 18-May-13 22:20:25

Have you read the whole thread VivienneMary?? confused

BigBlockSingsong Sun 19-May-13 08:52:10

Yes, GoblinGranny BearBaiting is exactly the word.

Noorny Sun 19-May-13 18:22:21

I disagree with your dh about kicking him in the balls.

Whacking him on the head with a blunt instrument would be more effective.

GoblinGranny Sun 19-May-13 20:28:23

But as others have said, you get your child to hit back, and the response then causes major damage to your child. Do you really want that?

Tubemole1 Mon 20-May-13 11:48:00

Have calmed down a bit, and spoken to other mums.

The child whose neck was bitten...her mum is making a formal complaint to the Dep Head. Her concern was when she picked up her child she challenged the teacher about it who seemed so blase about the affair. angry She's also annoyed that other parents of injured kids were not informed at all.

Other parents are annoyed but are not making complaints to headteachers, rather having informal chats with the blase class teacher hmm

The biter has been harassing my child for months now and she really only goes to school because her friends who also get picked on, stick together and attempt to get rid of him. They are often accused of telling tales or making trouble for the boy. If it wasn't for them being a great team, my daughter would probably want to stay at home.

I have made a formal complaint from the standpoint of child health and safety and the stress of the boy constantly harassing my girl. I also think, when my child tells a teacher she is being picked on, she is being told just to stay away but this kid won't quit. I am concerned, therefore, that when a child is fearful, their fears are not being addressed. In my lefty hippy opinion EVERY child has a voice and needs to be listened to. I have asked for an intervention and keep me informed of what action is taken. The teacher needs more training, for a start, IMHO.

So there's my update, we'll see how the dep head responds.

Goldmandra Mon 20-May-13 12:15:31

In my lefty hippy opinion EVERY child has a voice and needs to be listened to.

Absolutely!

Every child also needs to feel safe and secure in school in order to be able to learn so it is in the school's interests to deal with this properly.

I think you've taken a very reasonable course of action. I hope the teacher will no realise the importance of addressing the situation properly for the benefit of all the children involved.

KhaosandKalamity Mon 20-May-13 13:36:57

Woah he drew blood? That is a serious assault, there was a similar attack (by adults) in a city where I lived. The victim almost died, not due to the severity of the bites, but because the human mouth is far more germ filled than most animals and he contracted blood poisoning. The school has to take this seriously, and the girls must be monitored, symptoms can take a while to develop. This is not a minor event, it could be life threatening. Apologies for not having any actual advice and only really making the situation seem even scarier, but I am amazed by how few people know how dangerous a humans bite can be.

Tubemole1 Mon 20-May-13 17:14:51

Update again!

My email has been acted on. The child's parents have been called in to see the KS1 leader and the class teacher. I was invited to see them tomorrow, but I'm working, so I'm sending my husband instead. He'll sort it out.

So our complaints have been listened to and things are moving forward wink .

float62 Mon 20-May-13 18:28:51

Oh good, now maybe this young lad might get the help he needs and your dd and her 'team' gang can merrily carry on, unhurt of course. Little girls can be a bit more sophisticated sneaky than boys at this age I find and there probably was something in the claims of provocation at least some of the time. Has any one had a friendly chat with the "biter's" parents yet as there seems to be a lot of chatting gossiping about them. Or maybe they haven't been picked to play on the 'team' yet. I am having a bit of a giggle thinking about your dh going in to the meeting with his bollock-kicking suggestions and suddenly the school's spotlight is cast on you and your dd in a different way, ifyswim.

hackmum Mon 20-May-13 19:09:28

You sound like a lovely person, float62.

EatenByZombies Mon 20-May-13 23:07:09

I second Float62
You seem to automatically jump to the conclusion that this kid is terrible etc etc without considering exaggeration on your DDs part. Your condemnation of the teacher is bollocks, seeing as you weren't actually there and have only heard her reaction through the grapevine, so to speak.
I personally feel your reaction was OTT seeing as your child wasn't actually hurt herself - even if he's been picking on her for a while, exclusion wouldn't be the solution so you don't seem to be being reasonable.. hmm

JakeBullet Tue 21-May-13 08:03:05

His fascination with vampires might come from nothing more than seeing some of Twilight.

In any case I am glad the school are trying to support this boy as he is unlikely to realise how his actions might be upsetting others. In addition it will help the parents get support from him if he has a problem. Or it may just mean a more careful look out at break times to separate "playground stuff" from real issues. By "playground stuff" I mean the boy saying "ooh look I am a vampire chasing you" and by "other issues" I mean " vampires bite so I will bite you" which shows so done needs to step in and explain that playing a vampire is fine but biting is not. On the other hand if the biting is defensive "don't come near me or touch me" then he may have some sensory issues going on for which he needs support.

Whatever it is the school will deal with it.

LouiseSmith Tue 21-May-13 11:09:09

Talk to the school, make the head aware of the situation. But no you have absolutely no right to demand the child is excluded. You have no idea what is happening at the home of the child, maybe he's having a hard time.

Speak to the Head, keep in regular contact with teachers, tell your DD to stay away from him, don't sit near him in carpet time. But be prepared that your child may not come out smelling of roses. Its very rare especially in year one, that only one child is to blame.

Good luck

insanityscratching Tue 21-May-13 11:53:14

mrsmindcontrol a child doesn't have to be failing academically to need and get a statement. Having behavioural needs is enough and being excluded twelve times in three years at 7 or 8 is definitely evidence of need.
FWIW ds and dd both have statements neither of them have any academic needs (dd is exceptionally academically able in fact) I'd suggest speaking to IPSEA or SOSSEN and let them help you secure a statement.

cherrycarpet Tue 21-May-13 12:36:40

I'd put your concerns in writing and send a copy to the Headteacher and one to the Governors. I would also book an appointment with the teacher/headmaster. Your DD needs to feel safe at school. Your school needs to come up with an action plan and they need to follow through with it. Keep a diary of any future events and if the school aren't dealing with it then go to Ofsted.

It sounds like this boy possibly has behavioural issues which will need some intervention. At age 5 or 6 he's still learning social skills and it's up to the adults to guide him. I personally wouldn't advise your daughter to attack him as it would be giving her and the boy very mixed messages about aggression. If anything it could make the situation worse.

It's not up to you to ask for the child to be excluded even though this might feel like it is the easiest solution. I can understand your anger and hopefully it will get sorted soon.

threesypeesy Tue 21-May-13 12:55:22

you sound delightful op hmm you are expecting a head teacher to bow down to you and your vigilante gang of other mums!! there may be some background to this little boys behavioural issues.

apart from other "picking on" incadents you have mentioned you're child was not actually injured on this occasion and those who were are nothing to do with you that is for their parents to deal with, are you going on what a young child had told you or what an adult has told you regarding the non punishment of this child?

and to teach a child to kick a boy in the testicals as a way of retaliation is an absolute disgrace, that is something that could permenantly injure the said little boy,

you need to attend a meeting with those appropriate and come up with an action plan that is realistic to all those involved, i can understand feeling upset or frustrated at a situation like this as its you're child but you seem to have taken on an attitude that comes across as you expect your childs needs to be put before all the others in the class and its simply not the case the little boys needs are just as important and i do not believe having him suspended is going to do anyone any good.

Boomba Tue 21-May-13 13:07:24

From your last couple of posts, i would not be able to determine whether the 'team of girls' weren't bullying and excluding the boy confused

If it happened as you report, them yes, the teacher I'd failing her safe guarding duty. But given the attitude/approach of you and the other mums as described, I think there is probably another side to this story

mrsmindcontrol Tue 21-May-13 13:38:54

Thank you insanity. That's incredibly helpful!

Kleinzeit Tue 21-May-13 14:47:42

OP, I am rather regretting my advice to you to go the school. I honestly didn’t expect them to see you and the boy’s parents together. They can’t (or shouldn't!) discuss any difficulties that he might be having at a meeting where you or your husband are present, only things that directly involve your DD. But it seems the boy's problems are not only with her?

The school seem to expect you and the boys’ parents to sort it out somehow between you. But the school are responsible for what happens in school. And I don’t see what this meeting can achieve, because even if the parents are reasonable they wont be able to do very much themselves to help your DD's relationship with their son, and if they are not reasonable then that might make things worse for her. So I do hope your DH has better negotiating skills than just threatening people with kicks in the bollocks!

insanityscratching Tue 21-May-13 15:51:24

Parents gathered a petition to have my ds aged 5 removed from school. The HT gave every parent on the petition the option of removing their child from the school immediately because they wouldn't be removing or excluding ds. Be careful that you aren't offered the same option if you go in all guns blazing.Incidentally no one removed their child and school secured additional funding to ensure ds had 1 to 1 support at all times.

Goldmandra Tue 21-May-13 16:57:14

I read the OP's post as saying her DH was going in to see the class teacher and KS1 leader, not the other child's parents. That would be totally inappropriate.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Tue 21-May-13 17:03:26

insanity

You poor woman. How are relations between you and other parents now?

Great that it resulted in a good outcome for everyone, but still....

JamieandtheMagicTorch Tue 21-May-13 17:03:57

...or maybe, good outcome would have happened anyway?

insanityscratching Tue 21-May-13 17:55:24

Well we left the local school anyway as the junior department didn't have the same ethos and ds would have been excluded in time from there anyway if we had stayed.
Ds has autism, at five it was glaringly obvious he had SEN (he couldn't speak, was in nappies etc) I found the ignorance appalling tbh.
He had a ft statement on entry to nursery what the parents didn't know was that it was my complaints about the school to the LEA that secured more funding for breaktimes and lunchtimes because the school weren't supporting him properly. The HT had no option but to fight ds's corner as she had been leaned on by the LA.
Ds eventually moved to a school thirty miles away but he still has the bad boy reputation as I discovered when one of the petitioners asked me 8 years later if he was still naughty. I said "no he still has autism. I see you are still as thick as pig shit as well, some things don't change" wink Funnily enough she's never spoken to me since grin

insanity smile

JamieandtheMagicTorch Tue 21-May-13 17:57:50

there is staggering ignorance. But not just that - it's a sort of ill-will towards anyone else's child that some parents have.

mrsmindcontrol Tue 21-May-13 18:06:11

Insanity, so sorry you had to go through that. Your poor boy & poor you. I love your attitude. I'm going to reply like that next time anyone refers to my DS1 as naughty.

crashdoll Tue 21-May-13 18:08:49

OP, you sound gleeful about the whole situation which makes me think you are probably enjoying the prospect of the little boy being even more ostracised that he is already. I am not condoning the child's behaviour but some people seem unable to separate behaviour from the human being. This is a young child we are talking about with the potential to learn, grow and change given the right support. Ostracising him, excluding him and ganging up on him won't help at all. You might kid yourself that you're helping your child and others but you really aren't. Also, you really shouldn't believe all that you hear, especially if it's come from playground gossip or from year 1 children.

I'm still confused as to your statement that DH will go in and sort it. Why should he be able to sort it and you not? Are we still in the archaic age of being threatened by men or the idea that a man will stand no nonsense when confronted by women?
This statement has irritated me beyond belief let alone the rest of your complaint.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Tue 21-May-13 18:11:04

crashdoll

I agree

The last but one post especially.

Even the label the biter

insanityscratching Tue 21-May-13 18:19:48

I have the hide of a rhino now and an evil tongue. I put it to good use and make sure people think twice before being critical of me as a parent or cruel or unkind about my boy again.
We shouldn't have to be like this because you would hope that there was some modicum of compassion and sensitivity about where children with disabilities were concerned. But no unfortunately there isn't.
I'm not going to hide my child and sit weeping in a corner I'm fighting back and if when they've had a taste of my venom it makes them more wary next time then I've done a good job because newer parents or those feeling fragile don't need the grief.

Kleinzeit Tue 21-May-13 18:24:22

Re-reading the post Goldmandra I think you’re right – I guess these are separate meetings (phew!). The school probably wont be able to tell the OP anything about the boy, only what they will do to support and protect her DD. Indeed the more they are doing for the boy the less they’ll be able to say because it is confidential.

I don’t think the OP is especially gleeful or intolerant. She was just upset and angry because her DD has been hurt and upset, and she’s glad because the school may be doing something about it. Fair enough.

BoneyBackJefferson Tue 21-May-13 18:45:45

The last parent that said that they where going to "sort it" was escorted from the school by senior management and banned from the premises. So I'm hoping that it just a bad turn of phrase by the OP.

EatenByZombies Tue 21-May-13 20:28:04

"She was just upset and angry because her DD has been hurt and upset
Kleinzeit, her child wasn't hurt. That's the whole point of what multiple MNers are saying, it has nothing to do with her because her child wasn't hurt. She's basically trying to get a very young child excluded for upsetting hers, which is madness!

float62 Tue 21-May-13 20:45:34

Just looking for an update on the meeting today?

Goldmandra Tue 21-May-13 20:47:00

Is it unreasonable to ask the school makes sure our kids are safe thru the day, and this boy is either excluded, or has some sort of intervention?

I have made a formal complaint from the standpoint of child health and safety and the stress of the boy constantly harassing my girl.

The OP vented on the thread title about exclusion when she was angry but she isn't actually trying to get the child excluded.

She has made a formal complaint which is perfectly appropriate given that she feels that her child is not adequately protected in school. I did something similar recently at the (informal) request of the head teacher in order to give her the teeth she needed to get another child's needs met more appropriately.

I have also used the terminology "sort it out" when referring to school staff not fulfilling their responsibilities towards my children. I sorted it out by using the SEN Code of Practice, not threats or fists.

The OP came on here to ask and has taken advice offered. I'm not sure that she deserves such a thrashing.

Boomba Tue 21-May-13 23:00:54

The very idea that you would try to get a 5 year old child excluded is hmm IMO

The issue is entirely with the teacher

Boomba Tue 21-May-13 23:02:20

Posted to soon....

and/or school

Kleinzeit Tue 21-May-13 23:04:31

her child wasn't hurt

Yes I know, but this latest incident suggests they are not being kept apart very effectively.

EatenByZombies Tue 21-May-13 23:22:06

Why should they be kept apart? Schools don't have girl/boy segregation hmm
Every kid is mean to another kid at some point. Moving to exclude a 5 y/o is silly considering her child wasn't actually hurt. First step should be support for the boy.

Goldmandra Wed 22-May-13 00:16:00

They shouldn't be kept apart but times of unstructured social interaction should clearly be managed in some way.

EatenByZombies Wed 22-May-13 02:07:29

I agree. I don't agree on the actions OP has described.

hm32 Wed 22-May-13 06:51:43

A child does not have to be SEN or in need of social worker intervention to be violent. Even if one of those does apply, the other children have a right to go to school in safety. Something does need to be done to correct the situation.

BoneyBackJefferson Wed 22-May-13 07:00:40

Goldmandra
Did your "sort it out" come on the back of encouraging someone to kick a child in the balls, forced exclusion or gathering a "group" of mums together?

Goldmandra Wed 22-May-13 08:09:05

* encouraging someone to kick a child in the balls, forced exclusion*

Those were fantasies mentioned by people in the heat of the moment, not acted on. There's a difference between venting about things and actually doing them.

I have gathered a group of mums together if you count discussing a school's failings with other parents in the same position in order to force the school concerned to take action.

BoneyBackJefferson Wed 22-May-13 20:57:14

but Goldmandra that they are fantasies is an asumption, In the same way that my opinion is based on an asumption of what the op means when they post.

I would love to say that what some parents have said to me (in face, on the phone and in letters) are assumptions but they have happened.

As I posted earlier and to expand on the post, if the op's DH goes in heavy handed and makes unreasonable demands and gets agressive he will be removed from the premises and banned from them.

If he is going in and going to have a calm conversation discussing how the school can better protect his DD he will be ok.

I would like the op to come back with an update.

Goldmandra Wed 22-May-13 22:13:51

but Goldmandra that they are fantasies is an asumption

So we should assume that, if someone posts asking if they would be unreasonable to do something, they have actually done it? hmm

If the OP says she has encouraged her child to be violent or forced the school to exclude the child that would be a very different matter.

The fact that some parents have acted unreasonably in situations which involved you, doesn't mean everyone who vents about has automatically done it.

I have vented, including in internet forums, about what I could do to school staff who are failing or hurting my children. Then I calm down and take a measured course of action like most people would, especially if they have asked for advice and acted on it as the OP has described.

float62 Thu 23-May-13 21:15:59

I really would still like to know the outcome of this situation because I think it's a thrustingly good example of all the examples of angst that mothers in the early years of their dc's education experience. It gave a wide range of comments from mnetters and if Tube felt slated then I apologize on behalf of those that just wanted her to stop and think and put the shoe on a different foot whilst completely understanding the basic instinct of keeping your child safe as paramount. You don't have to worry about any RL outing as this happens in most schools.

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