to be sickened by the level of violence and gore in horror films these days?

(293 Posts)
dontmeanto Mon 13-May-13 16:41:08

...and the sheer volume of them??

DP and I went to hire a film Saturday night as a treat and couldn't believe just how many of these films were on the New Arrivals shelves.

Various plots on abduction, torture, force, maiming, etc.

I guess I just don't get why people are entertained by these films? I find them disturbing at best and absolutely disgusting at worst.

I just don't want those types of things in my head, and I worry there's a generation out there that will in some way become desensitised to this level of violence by making these films "cool" to watch with friends.

I remember being shocked by Scream when I was a teen, but these now are a billion times worse!

AIBU?

KansasCityOctopus Mon 13-May-13 16:42:59

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

IRCL Mon 13-May-13 16:46:09

YANBU.

I worry about the individuals who can cook up such gruesome twisted thoughts.

cornypedicure Mon 13-May-13 16:46:46

YABU
I've never seen the texas chain saw massacre but I gather it's really disturbing - that's not a modern film at all.

dontmeanto Mon 13-May-13 16:47:00

Care to elaborate? A few of my friends love them, FWIW, so I'm aware of the fact pov is old-fashioned!

Well..............................I suppose on one hand you are not obliged to watch them.
But then you think "Who watches this crap?"

I watched A Human Centipede (twice) blush because I did wonder who dreamed this up, who decided to bankroll this. (I got really fed up with one of the screamy actresses and I just wanted the Mad Doctor to kill her right now ). Then I had to watch it because I wanted the finality of how it ended.

I do worry about people becoming de-sensitised to horror, violence and pornography. I don't object to horror in a film if there's a point but not gratuitous.

UnChartered Mon 13-May-13 16:53:59

gore and horror aren't new though, Bram Stoker (Dracula) wrote that story in the late 1800s, and there has always been gory folk lore of monsters and ghouls, in almost every culture

YANBU to think there are truly appalling horror films made though, some are laughable they are so ridiculously made

(RIP Ray Harryhausen also, he was a genius at special effects)

fuzzpig Mon 13-May-13 17:00:07

I'm torn.

Of course nobody is making you watch them...

But I do agree they are getting more disturbing and maybe 'depraved' is the right word? Like the human centipede, I read the synopsis, and that of the sequel, fucking hell <vom>. It makes me think of people writing their own sleezy porno where they just put as much shocking stuff in as they can think of.

I used to have horror sleepovers where we would laugh at freddy kreuger etc. Then I saw The Ring and was so freaked out I did not watch another horror movie for about 8 years!

dontmeanto Mon 13-May-13 17:01:42

I know its been around a long time, but I think implied horror though is far more effective artistic-wise (think shower scene in Psycho)...now it seems to be a case of out-doing each other in blatant, horrific violence and gore.

And people will always be drawn to them out of curiosity.

Naebother Mon 13-May-13 17:08:58

I kind of agree with you in some respects in that its not too healthy to watch a lot of this stuff. I went though a phase in my teens when i loved horror films and saw too much. I was 13 when I saw the exorcist for example.

As contemporary films are far more visually convincing i would be concerned if my kids were seeing them. I believe you need to be educated to make an informed choice so would say over 18s only.

dontmeanto Mon 13-May-13 17:10:06

I definitely choose not to watch them because I'm the kind of saddo who gets too emotionally invested in films (in fictitious ones!) and I know watching a violent death would disturb me for days.

I just worry about where humanity is headed if it takes such violent scenes to entertain us (in general).

KansasCityOctopus Mon 13-May-13 17:12:56

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Don't watch Hannibal on sky living, OP. It's really gruesome. Surprisingly gruesome. Usually they gloss over the blood and gore on TV, but not on Hannibal.

KansasCityOctopus Mon 13-May-13 17:14:09

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

UnChartered Mon 13-May-13 17:14:26

but that is my point, we have always used gore and violence to entertain - romans and gladiators are another example

it's just easier to get hold of now

UnChartered Mon 13-May-13 17:14:56

x-post Kansas

VerySmallSqueak Mon 13-May-13 17:16:07

I love a good gory zombie film - bloodthirsty,violent and horrific.

Can't say why,I just do.

I suspect that it's to do with the fact that it's all made up.
I can't bear to see people really badly beaten up by other people in films and I expect that is because it's 'reality'.

dontmeanto Mon 13-May-13 17:19:26

Yes, I think maybe I meant how technology has changed to portray these things so realistically now. I do know, of course, that horror has been around a long time.

And that's also my point...I feel like we are headed backwards to Gladiator-esque entertainment when some people are entertained by watching other humans suffer horrifically for entertainment.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Footface Mon 13-May-13 17:21:27

I don't mind the blood so much, it's more the level of violence directed towards women that I worry about. The cell with j lo is a prime example of that. Included in that the level of sexual violence that seems to be in every film. I worry about becoming desensitised.

Fwiw Texas chain saw massacre was banned for years in this country. I watched it after the ban was removed I watched it and regretted but films today are on a different level

dontmeanto Mon 13-May-13 17:21:48

I used "entertainment" a lot in that last sentence! I blame the baby!! grin

fromparistoberlin Mon 13-May-13 17:32:46

yanbu

last week this delightful chap was arrested

www.trutv.com/library/crime/blog/2012/07/26/professional-puppeteer-arrested-for-plans-to-abduct-rape-kill-and-eat-a-child/index.html

rightly so they have been imprisoned, yet it was all in their heads (thank god), and RIGHTLY they were imprisoned, and hope they throw away the key

so I wonder how it it that people than even have the imagination to make this films??? I just dont know how their minds think of it????

dontmeanto Mon 13-May-13 17:45:04

Oh my, fromparis, that is truly awful.

Exactly, how and why do people think of these plots??? I think it boils down to money. People pay lots to be entertained/scared by horror (let's face it, these films are becoming more and more popular), and these filmmakers will have no boundaries if it brings in the cash.

Clawdy Mon 13-May-13 19:19:34

Before we downloaded a film called Lovely Molly,I checked the reviews on the net. They were fairly unanimous that it was atmospheric and poignant,chilling but not gory,so we watched it. I found it so harrowing I could not watch to the end. It was a 15 rating.

Lovely Molly?? confused
That was utter tripe?!

digerd Mon 13-May-13 19:29:02

I loved the old Dracula films. They were frightening but not violent or gory. Sippose they would be tame now. But never did like blood and gore, preferred supernatural horror films.

I enjoyed the TV series "Useful things" < I think it was called>, and Mysterious Ways.

soontobeburns Mon 13-May-13 19:32:00

YABU I love them and I havent had any inclination to go out and murder anyone.

digerd Mon 13-May-13 19:35:32

Also found Mary Rose compelling viewing. If I got the name right?

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GoblinGranny Mon 13-May-13 19:53:04

I'm more sickened by the fact that the primary-age children in my class can discuss the merits of the Saw, Nightmare and Friday 13th franchises, and compare them.
I have no problem with adults liking horror films, I'm a fan of many. But my children had to wait to have that choice.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Nelly000 Mon 13-May-13 19:59:42

Never seen one... Doesn't appeal at all

PhallicGiraffe Mon 13-May-13 20:00:34

YABU

It is a film, it's not real. You don't have to watch them, and people that do are normal, healthy individuals that are quite able to watch them, and not copy what they've just seen.

Parents have a duty to stop their kids watching them, they have an age rating for a reason.

VerySmallSqueak Mon 13-May-13 20:12:51

I was weaned on horror,like many who were primary aged in the 70's - it was quite normal for kids to stay up late to watch a good horror with their parents.

Thank goodness we know better now though - I used to have terrible nightmares.

I'm really strict about what my DC's watch - my viewing is mainly done if I ever have a bit of time when they're out of the house. At bedtime I never know when they might come through for a drink and I can't hit the Pause in time.

StuntGirl Mon 13-May-13 20:21:21

I bloody love a good horror film. They prey on primal fears and emotions, it's very raw.

Horror films go through cycles just like anything else. In 10 or 20 years time we'll look back on the torture porn horror stuff and think "God that's so 00's" just like we look back on old films now and think "God that's so 80s!"

Loulybelle Mon 13-May-13 20:32:52

You want vile, look up "Serbian Film", even reading the description made me dry heave.

dontmeanto Mon 13-May-13 20:38:55

But no one knows the long-term impact on this level of gore...

My worry is that young people will watch them (and they will, cos they do...it's all good saying they have age restrictions but everyone knows young teens will find a way to watch this stuff anyway!), and I'm sorry but this level of violence being acceptable in main-stream media can and might have a negative impact on someone's psyche, whether they are aware of it or not.

I didn't say everyone who watches it will do the same, but I worry that if a younger generation becomes desensitised to that level of violence after watching it in vivid and gory detail, and it could have some sort of negative impact on society.

deleted203 Mon 13-May-13 20:42:40

I can't abide them now, yet as a teen I loved 'horror' films.

I do think it is because the level of gore and violence has increased - but mostly because special effects/technology are just so realistic nowadays. I seriously could not cope with watching a horror film now - I would be having screaming nightmares.

Plus, as others have said, the unpleasant level of sexual/graphic violence has increased 1000% from when I was a teen in the early '80s perhaps.

claig Mon 13-May-13 20:44:23

YANBU

'Exactly, how and why do people think of these plots??? I think it boils down to money. People pay lots to be entertained/scared by horror (let's face it, these films are becoming more and more popular), and these filmmakers will have no boundaries if it brings in the cash.'

I don't think it is about money. I think it is a deliberate attempt to desensitise people and brutalise them by exposing them to ever more gore and violence.

KitchenandJumble Mon 13-May-13 20:46:39

I don't watch horror films. They really don't interest me and I'm far too squeamish to cope with the gore. But I find that many films outside the horror genre nowadays are far too violent for my liking.

I am concerned that we are all becoming desensitised to violence due to the images we are exposed to, especially as the images become more horrifying, more intense, more extreme as the years go by. On the other hand, I'm completely opposed to censorship, so I don't really know what the answer is. It would be nice if filmmakers felt a sense of responsibility to limit the gratuitous use of violence. But as long as the public responds to such films positively, filmmakers will continue to push the bounds.

gordyslovesheep Mon 13-May-13 20:48:45

I love a good horror but a good horror is intelligent as well as gory - torture porn for it's sake alone is dire

Take Hostel - the first one, while difficult to watch had an interesting premise and political message - the others where just horrid

I LOVE Zombies though grin

Fakebook Mon 13-May-13 20:48:54

Is gore really a new concept? I remember watching Evil Dead and Nightmare on Elm St when I was younger and those films were far more gory than any of the new horror movies. The SAW films are the goriest films I've seen recently. They're not that bad IMO.

StuntGirl Mon 13-May-13 20:49:37

Yes but these kinds of stories won't be around forever. Each generation creates their own version. In 10 years time Hostel et al will seem laughable to the next generation.

OrangeFireandGoldashes Mon 13-May-13 20:51:03

I can't watch anything gory, vile or depraved. I am ridiculously squeamish with a stupidly over-active imagination and would have nightmares and/or dwell on the scenes for months afterwards. I know it's not real but the fact that someone thought up extreme acts of violence and torture, that these horrors are the product of a human being's brain, means that it could be real, one day, somewhere, because if one person can imagine them for 'artistic' (to use the term loosely) reasons, then what's stopping someone else thinking of those or similar acts of depravity with real-life intent?

Fakebook Mon 13-May-13 20:56:31

Orange, that's very true. I think the James Bulger case proves this. But it's very rare that someone watches a horror movie and tries to emulate what they see. I am the same age as the James Bulger murderers. I had elder brothers who used to bring horror movies home and I watched a lot of them with them and my sister. I'd even watched Child's Play, but it didn't make me want to do those things. I think someone has to be pretty fucked up in the head to copy cat a horror movie.

OrangeFireandGoldashes Mon 13-May-13 21:04:08

I agree Fakebook - I wasn't so much suggesting that such films lead to copycats, it's more a personal unease born of knowing that there are people in the world capable of dreaming up such horrors. Some of them are making their weird and unpleasant thoughts into films, but presumably some of them...aren't. (In fact I know some of them aren't because I used to work in the criminal justice system. sad ) So as well as triggering my squeamishness at gore and over-active imagination, such films are a graphic, in-your-face reminder that people who think like this exist in the world.

Loulybelle Mon 13-May-13 21:05:20

Fake, i've always maintained that too. If you cant see the difference between real life and fiction, then you arent wired right.

Its the same with video games, i've played loads and seen many horrors, never thought about doing it.

PimpMyHippo Mon 13-May-13 21:06:53

This thread appeared in Active Convos right above one called "AIBU to want to rip her head off and kick it over a hedge?" grin well, it made me laugh anyway.

love horror films. have been watching them since i was about 11. hasnt done me any harm.

the only ones that have ever scared me are paranormal activity 1 & 2... but thats because you cant see anything iyswim (3 & 4 were tripe)

i cant watch zombie films by myself blush they totally freak me out. took over 3 months for the nightmares to stop after i saw deadset (tv series based in the bb house) blush

anything else i either find ok or really boring, but i still watch them.

saw the evil dead a couple of weeks ago and found that boring and a little bit funny in places grin

dontmeanto Mon 13-May-13 21:13:44

See Pimp, I bet that OP watches too many violent films!!! grin

But seriously it's slightly annoying to have words put in one's. Nowhere have I said watching violent films will cause the viewer to go out and copycat. confused

dontmeanto Mon 13-May-13 21:15:13

one's MOUTH.

PimpMyHippo Mon 13-May-13 21:19:42

claig

I don't think it is about money. I think it is a deliberate attempt to desensitise people and brutalise them by exposing them to ever more gore and violence.

What motive would film makers have for wanting to desensitise people to violence? I don't see what the people thinking up horror films would gain from that. If people become blasé towards horror, wouldn't that be a bad thing for people who make their living from horror films?

OrangeFireandGoldashes Mon 13-May-13 21:26:26

I think from a film maker's perspective it's probably more about pushing the boundaries. How far can we push X character? Do we have the technology to portray Y? Can we get Z past the classification boards?

I would say YABU as I love a gory cheesy horror movie but... I have seen "A Serbian Film", I honestly didn't think it would be as bad as people made it out but I just didn't look it up enough before I watched it.

That has made me realise that we have come to a point where film makers can get away with pretty much anything, I'm pretty numbed when it comes to horror movies, even some of the ones banned in this country don't actually really bother me but that movie made me throw up, cry and I will seriously never get over seeing it.

claig Mon 13-May-13 21:33:20

Pimp, it's not about money. They could make more monet by making films that appeal to everyone from 8 to 80.

Filmmakers are encouraged to make these films by studios just like gangster rappers are encouraged by record companies. The men in suits who finance this crap and are directed to by their bosses have an agenda to densitise and brutalise us. It is about their vision of society and politics.

claig Mon 13-May-13 21:37:04

They won't make films with certain messages, but they are given free rein to show disturrbing violence and to portray evil.

Claig Have you been on ATS by any chance?

I'm pretty sure with this it is just a case of appealing to an audience that there is a market for.

claig Mon 13-May-13 21:39:08

No I don't need to go to abovetopsecret to understand what is behind it.

claig Mon 13-May-13 21:42:26

'just a case of appealing to an audience that there is a market for'

They create the market, they determine the parameters, they decide what message to show and what they want to sell, and teh public consumes what they hype and market and distribute. They lead and the public follows along the path they want people's minds to go.

I was joking hmm.

It gets to a point where believing the government is conspiring against everyone, false flags and de-sensitisation where it goes too far.

There is a market for gore/horror movies so the film makers will go with it.

Claig As has already been said, people have been entertaining using violence and gore for thousands of years, this isn't a new thing and film makers haven't created a market for some finding horror/violence entertaining.

It's a car crash scenario and all to do with enjoying the adrenaline rush that comes from being scared or shocked.

PimpMyHippo Mon 13-May-13 21:44:50

What vision? Of a society where everyone is brutal and violent? What would these mysterious suited men stand to gain from that, apart from shits and giggles? Realistically, I think most things boil down to financial gain - and people will spend money on gory films because they want to prove to themselves/others that they can stomach it, or because of a morbid fascination with the darkest things humans can come up with - I very much doubt the studio bosses care why people enjoy these films, as long as they're parting with their cash to do so.

claig Mon 13-May-13 21:44:53

They fine footballers for swearing on TV because they want them to act as role models and they allow all manner of violent crap and evil to be shown and they even promote it.

claig Mon 13-May-13 21:46:37

'people have been entertaining using violence and gore for thousands of years'

Not like the stuff they show now over the past 40 years. Never before in human history has this amount of evil crap been broadcast or shown to people.

PimpMyHippo Mon 13-May-13 21:48:11

Who's this mysterious "they"? The people fining footballers aren't the same ones making the Saw films, I would imagine.

Do you actually believe that? The difference is nowadays we wouldn't actually line up to watch someone being stoned to death, hung or have their head chopped off or burnt alive etc.

It's all fake and acted which means although we watch it and imagine it is real, we don't for the most part actually do it!

digerd Mon 13-May-13 21:49:14

The 1971 film "The Devils", with Vanessa Redgrave and Oliver Reed, by Ken Russell, was violent, sick, depraved and horrendous. Leaving many women in the audience vomitting at the end. Wish I'd never gone to see it.
Can't remember if it was classed as a horror film. There was no blood, but we all know that is fake, anyway. A touch of pornography too.

The acting was superb by the 2 stars btw.

claig Mon 13-May-13 21:51:07

'Of a society where everyone is brutal and violent? What would these mysterious suited men stand to gain from that, apart from shits and giggles?'

This is a deliberate breaking of boundaries, morals and ethics; a destruction of civilised society in order to brutalise people to desensitise them and in order to get them to accept a future society of brutalisation and evil.

The men in suits are not stupid, they aren't doing it for money, they are selling a message

"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever." - George Orwell, 1984

claig Mon 13-May-13 21:53:29

'The people fining footballers aren't the same ones making the Saw films, I would imagine.'

70 years ago, they would have banned films like Saw, they would probably have prosecuted studios that tried to release it. Now they wave it by. Why?

Did you miss my post or something?

This isn't new, we've been killing people and watching it to enjoy for thousands of years, if anything we're not as bad in this day and age because we don't actually do it.

So who are "they"?

claig Mon 13-May-13 21:57:43

They glamourise drus, they glamourise violence and they glamourise evil and it affects people that are exposed to the evil.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2296887/Killer-Matthew-Tinling-copied-Saw-horror-film-slicing-victims-spinal-cord-make-reveal-PIN.html

They alter people's sensibilitiies and their morals and their boundaries.

claig Mon 13-May-13 21:57:57

drugs

Who the fuck are "they"!?

UrbaneLandlord Mon 13-May-13 22:00:18

LOL.

Another Mumsnet Moral Panic thread.

Anyone else remember the 'Video Nasty' Moral Panic from the 80s?

Lead to all kinds of rules & regulation and the banning of some (now infamous) videos.

One of the greatest things about the internet is that it has ended state-censorship. We can all decide for ourselves what images & movies we view without the government to 'help us'.

In the 80s, all sorts of dire predictions were made about what would happen if videos like 'Texas Chainsaw Massacre" and "Driller Killer" were allowed to proliferate amongst the public. So the videos were "banned' and the 'nation was saved'.

Come the 00s, come the internet. Free access to unrestricted video violence no matter how 'depraved'. Many of them much darker and more violent than the semi-spoof 'Texas Chainsaw Massacre'.

Will someone please tell me what harm has resulted from this? I haven't noted any increase in the number of people running up & down the street wielding chainsaws; nor in any other kind of violence whatsoever. If anything, levels have come down.

Thus we can conclude: there is no causal relationship between on-screen violence and real-life violence.

It's just that some people aren't happy unless they've got something to worry about. It's easier to blame the imaginary demons in the outside world than face up to the real demons inside your own head.

claig Mon 13-May-13 22:01:34

'This isn't new'

This is new. The level of graphic detail and gore that people are now exposed to is beyond anything that was ever shown or written about before in human history. they have opened Pandora's Box and thrown away the key. They have let the genie out of the bottle and let it reap its havoc on the minds of the people who are exposed to it.

claig Mon 13-May-13 22:03:03

'Who the fuck are "they"!?'

Everyone is asking the same question. The men in suits (not the twats with cameras), the people Orwell wrote about.

Are you seriously talking about The Illuminati? hmm

claig Mon 13-May-13 22:06:15

Do the Illuminati wear suits or do they dress casual? I don't know who the Illuminati are or where they hang out.

Judas Cradle

The Pear

Etc.

Trust me, people are not as brutal as they used to be.

claig Mon 13-May-13 22:08:05

Drugs alter minds and so does their depiction of violence and evil.

hmm

claig Mon 13-May-13 22:11:23

'Trust me, people are not as brutal as they used to be.'

Yes, that was in real life, but not in fictional portrayals about from some weirdos who were jailed and locked in towers.

Humanity advanced and cruelty and evil was removed from the public realm to a great degree. The depiction of evil and cruelty in the public realm now is a harbinger of what they want to come.

PimpMyHippo Mon 13-May-13 22:11:48

I'm fairly sure the level of graphic detail and gore were significantly higher when the violence was happening in real life, to real people, just a few feet away from baying crowds. I doubt any special effects could rival the brutality of sitting in an amphitheatre 2000 years ago and watching a man get ripped apart by a lion right in front of your eyes, for example. And "the men in suits" isn't really a very helpful answer to the question we've been asking. hmm

dontmeanto Mon 13-May-13 22:14:00

Gosh, Urbane, I'm glad you've come along to talk some sense into me.

I think, again, my main points are being missed. 1) how extremely violent these films are, which COULD POSSIBLY lead to, in the long run, a desensitised generation.

And 2) the fact that there are SO MANY of them readily accessible and infiltrating mainstream mass media. Right below one of The Hostel films was Madagascar 3, for fuck's sake.

I am by no means one for censorship but I find it hard to believe that young people exposing themselves to this shit won't, SOMETIMES, walk away being altered (disturbed, saddened...impacted ^negatively in some way^) to the extreme nature of violence in these films.

Off I trot to try and get rid of the demons in my head.

MN has went fucking loony the past couple of nights.

claig Mon 13-May-13 22:16:00

'MN has went fucking loony the past couple of nights.'

I agree. All the violent gore fans have been out and about. Has there been a full moon?

PimpMyHippo Mon 13-May-13 22:20:01

Cross post there - okay, so you're saying that "they" (putting aside the ever-present question of who exactly they are) want us to go back to the time when violence and brutality was a part of everyday life, rather than largely fictional. Why? Again, what would "they" gain from that?

claig Mon 13-May-13 22:25:53

'Why? Again, what would "they" gain from that?'

Because they want to undermine society and overturn the status quo. They are like the revolutionaries who want to destroy in order to rebuild a society on their terms. they are sending messages and brainwashing the masses who pay to watch their crap in order to undermine them and break their boundaries and morals. They sell evil, violent movies and messages because they are destructive and want to destroy the status quo in order to create a new world on their terms, a world where evil and brutalisation will be commonplace and where people will have become so broken, demoralised and desensitised that they will not be able to resist.

Pimp "They" would be the Fabian Society. hmm

claig Mon 13-May-13 22:28:13

Orwell foresaw it and he wrote a book about what they intended to do.

claig Mon 13-May-13 22:32:13

They is not the Fabians. I think the Fabians are merely puppets, they are not in control of diddly squat.

Do you even know who "they" are?

claig Mon 13-May-13 22:36:08

I know that they are not the puppets and the twats with cameras who churn the crap out.

But you don't actually have a scooby who they are apart from that? hmm

PariahHairy Mon 13-May-13 22:39:18

Meh I enjoy extreme cinema, horror films, although I don't particularly like pure gross out, such as Saw and Human Centipede, I thought they were poor and badly acted,the last scene of the first Saw film, with the hysteric over acting put me off. HC was just laughable and ridiculous.

I did enjoy both hostel 1 and 2, 1 because of the intriguing premise, 2 because of the kick ass resolution grin.

I don't watch anything with any graphic sexual violence (or ff), I can't be doing with that, but anything else is fair game.

The only horror movies to ever give me nightmares were Halloween and Nightmare on elm street, both watched too young. The first full length adult novel I read was a horror and my Mum was a card carrying Stephen King fan, I had no chance grin.

claig Mon 13-May-13 22:42:11

'But you don't actually have a scooby who they are apart from that?'

No. I use a process of elimination and rule out all the puppets to get a better idea of who runs the sick show that they sell to the public.

gobbledegook1 Mon 13-May-13 22:43:17

The decent horror films are the psychological ones that are all about what you can't see not what you can imo!

They don't make horror's like they used to. I think a lot of modern 'horror' films are rubbish their more about the latest graphics than a decent plot line with actual scare factor rather than Eeeww factor.

gordyslovesheep Mon 13-May-13 22:45:44

pmsl - this thread got scarier than any horror film - people are very odd

claig Mon 13-May-13 23:09:28

From Orwell's 1984

"April 4th, 1984. Last night to the flicks. All war films. One very good one of a ship full of refugees being bombed somewhere in the Mediterranean. Audience much amused by shots of a great huge fat man trying to swim away with a helicopter after him, first you saw him wallowing along in the water like a porpoise, then you saw him through the helicopters gunsights, then he was full of holes and the sea round him turned pink and he sank as suddenly as though the holes had let in the water, audience shouting with laughter when he sank. then you saw a lifeboat full of children with a helicopter hovering over it.
.......
then the helicopter planted a 20 kilo bomb in among them terrific flash and the boat went all to matchwood. then there was a wonderful shot of a child's arm going up up up right up into the air a helicopter with a camera in its nose must have followed it up and there was a lot of applause from the party seats but a woman down in the prole part of the house suddenly started kicking up a fuss and shouting they didnt oughter of showed it not in front of kids they didnt it aint right not in front of kids it aint until the police turned her turned her out i dont suppose anything happened to her nobody cares what the proles say typical prole reaction they never --"


The party and some of the people have become desensitised to the gore, but there are still proles who know it isn't right.

PimpMyHippo Mon 13-May-13 23:26:10

Well I can see why violent films scare you, claig, if you have that much trouble distinguishing a fictional work from reality. hmm

claig Mon 13-May-13 23:34:16

When people witness horrific violence and cruelty in real life, the effect on their minds can stay with them forever and they often suffer post traumatic stress.

Wtaching fictional crap that displays graphic violence is an assault on the senses and sensibilities of people and also has a lasting impression on their minds. Witnessing graphic horror is not entertainment.

StuntGirl Mon 13-May-13 23:34:22

I am DYING laughing from this thread <wipes tears from eyes>

Jesus Claig, no wonder you don't like horror films, what goes on in your head is terrifying enough grin

claig Mon 13-May-13 23:38:04

As Orwell wrote about the woman who was a prole and who saw the depiction of violence sold as entertainment

"it aint right"

but

"nobody cares what the proles say"

They sell the proles what they want them to see and if they object, they tell them that they can't distinguish fiction from reality.

claig Mon 13-May-13 23:39:36

'what goes on in your head is terrifying enough'

If common sense and decency terrifies you, then they have done their job on you and desensitised you to their crap.

claig Mon 13-May-13 23:41:12

'I am DYING laughing from this thread'

The audience and the party laughed at the film that Orwell described.

KansasCityOctopus Tue 14-May-13 00:50:54

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

kansas grin

think ill avoid the next horror movie thread... if there is one after this confused

dontmeanto Tue 14-May-13 06:09:16

Hi, OP here.

Not quite the direction I envisioned this thread going but erm...thank you for your insight, claig.

As for me, IA clearly BU by starting this thread on the bad men in suits. Clearly society is doing just fine.

<trots off with tinfoil hat and trusty copy of 1984>

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

claig Tue 14-May-13 07:32:32

'Quick, everyone put on your tinfoil hats before they read your brainwaves!!'

They don't want to read your brainwaves. They are changing your brain and feelings by desensitising you to violence. That is all they want.

'Not quite the direction I envisioned this thread going but erm...thank you for your insight, claig.'

Some people believe that the reason for it is the market and for money. But it is about much more than that.

claig Tue 14-May-13 07:42:49

The woman in Orwell's book was right when she said

"they didnt oughter of showed it"

Everyone now says "I don't believe in censorship", but of course there should be censorship to prevent crap that desensitises people to violence being shown. They say they are only meeting a market need and giving people what they want. But they are lying.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

claig Tue 14-May-13 07:48:23

Thankfully, we have someMps calling for more censorship in these areas

"Mr Brazier's British Board of Film Classification (Accountability to Parliament and Appeals) Bill has cross party support but would need Government backing to become law.

It aims to make the BBFC more accountable by setting up a new appeals body, giving MPs a say in appointments to the committee and a veto over its guidelines, enabling them to be "tightened" up.
The Bill would also allow 50 MPs signing a Commons motion to trigger an appeal against a BBFC ruling to restore cut material or lower the classification of a film.

Mr Brazier cited as an example, a video previously banned but re-examined by the BBFC and released in 2005 called SS Experiment Camp.
"The film shows in voyeuristic detail women being tortured to death by SS camp guards."

In another case, he said the film Irreversible featured a nine-minute rape scene, adding: "If this is not glamorising rape then it is difficult to imagine what would be."

Mr Brazier said a Ministry of Justice report published last year spoke of "negative psychological, attitudinal and behavioural effects" of extreme pornographic material, such as increased aggression.

He said: "There will always be those who claim you can have a correlation without a cause, that this whole phenomenon can be explained away by saying those prone to rape have a greater pre-disposition to view pornographic material.

"We don't accept it and never have accepted it in areas like simulated child pornography or racist literature."

He said there was evidence of copycat links to violent films, including the one where two 10-year-old schoolboys were convicted of murdering toddler James Bulger in a case which had "striking similarities" to a violent video rented by the father of one of the boys."

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-522947/The-Government-given-film-censorship-powers-violent-movies-claims-Tory-MP.html

claig Tue 14-May-13 07:50:15

Of course what people watch affects their minds.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

claig Tue 14-May-13 07:52:58

"Film censors were accused last night of being "completely out of touch" after they admitted they no longer cut violent scenes from 18-rated movies.

Critics said the British Board of Film Classification's members had adopted a policy of "anything goes" and were a "law unto themselves".
The controversy was triggered by the board's decision to approve the ultra-violent film Eastern Promises without any cuts."

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-488920/Censors-admit-longer-cut-violence-movies.html

Progressives have been so manipulated that they can no longer say enough is enough and make a stand for common decency. It goes against their market principles and their belief in freedom without constraint, in their abdication of the belief in censorship.

claig Tue 14-May-13 07:55:50

'It hasn't affected mine, Claig'

beerTricks, it has affected you. It has desensitised you, which is why you are able to watch it without feeling the revulsion that your grandparents would have felt if they had watched.

They have made this crap mainstream and they review it and make money out of it and bring up a new generation insensitive to it.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

claig Tue 14-May-13 07:58:36

Of course it is. I believe in censorship in order to maintain decency. I am not a progressive, I believe some of these men in suits should be prosecuted for the violence and obscenity that they profit from and inflict on the public.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

claig Tue 14-May-13 08:06:48

We have campaigns like "Let Girls be Girls" to stop the crap that "someone has made up"

www.mumsnet.com/campaigns/let-girls-be-girls

We know that what children and adults see can affect their minds and behaviour, and we are against the people who "make this stuff up" profiting from it at the expense of society.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

claig Tue 14-May-13 08:09:18

'You're replacing one set of 'men in suits' with another one if you go down that road.'

Yes. Someone has to be in charge. We need leadership that follows the wishes of the public and the majority. We can't let the men in suits have free rein to dismantle every edifice of our society in order to achieve their hidden aims by desensitising people and selling them mind-altering crap.

KansasCityOctopus Tue 14-May-13 08:11:38

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

dontmeanto Tue 14-May-13 08:35:14

I do actually agree with Claig regarding the generational desensitisation. My grandparents went through WW2, but would still be absolutely horrified at watching a young woman being tortured and maimed for entertainment.

What will horror be like in 50 years time?

I googled "A Serbian Film." (Actually DP did as I was too chicken to read what its about). What the absolute fuck?? Necrophilia and child rape. Why, why, why ??? Why make a film like that? Why watch it?

It saddens me that there are under 18's out there who WILL watch it, cos their older sibling has, or a mate got their hands on it. The age restriction guidelines don't prevent a thing. If anything teens will be drawn to the forbidden-ness of it.
Then what? Someone earlier said they will never get over watching it. I for one would be sad if my son or daughter was permanently affected by something like this.

I honestly believe these films are causing a de-evolvement back TO gladiator times.

I don't know what the answer is, though, as censorship by government doesn't sit right with me, either.

claig Tue 14-May-13 08:39:52

'I don't know what the answer is, though, as censorship by government doesn't sit right with me, either.'

The answer is censorship. They have removed our only guard against this crap and told us that trying to stem the flow of this filth is wrong because it is censorship. They want free rein to flood us with more of this crap, and only censorship will stop them.

Binkybix Tue 14-May-13 08:43:03

I personally found Hostel horribly compelling, but ultimately regretted watching it. It made me feel a bit 'icky' that someone had thought it up. I think horror appeals to a side of us that is intrigued by real life horror, which (thankfully) hardly anyone has to face nowadays. Like an extreme version of a rollercoaster.

I'm sure the majority can watch films like this without any effect, but wonder if it would have a negative impact on the minority. What sort of research has been done on it?

Also just looked up Serbian film. Seems a bit gratuitous to me, to say the least.

VerySmallSqueak Tue 14-May-13 08:53:14

I re- watched an episode of The Walking Dead last night.
I think I agree that I'm de sensitised to the violence in it.

But I cannot watch the beginning of Clockwork Orange and absolutely recoil at Nil by Mouth so I cannot see that this has de sensitised me to violence in general.

Don't understand the problem,really. But perhaps I don't spend too long over analysing it.

fromparistoberlin Tue 14-May-13 08:55:16

the whole "well the Romans did it with the gladiators" argument is a spurious one

we look back at the past, and lets face it it was pants! Romans, Spanish Inquisition, Witch Burning, Middle Ages. Bloody times, yes?

yet we accept the rise of torture porn as entertainment, and dont even try and compare "Hostel" with "Nightmare on Elm Street" as the thinking behind them is completely different

Binkybix Tue 14-May-13 08:56:38

Blood/gore I can cope with (eg I watched 300 the other day and didn't think about it). I think the stuff I can't stand and disturbs me is cruelty in terms of inflicting violence just because, which is why I find torture for fun so disturbing.

claig Tue 14-May-13 09:00:04

'so I cannot see that this has de sensitised me to violence in general'

It is a process of desensitisation. You still retain many of your normal instincts and have not been completely desensitised. But some people have become more desensitised than you by what they have seen.

It is not healthy for individuals or for society to watch violence for entertainmnet and to become desensitised to it.

EasilyBored Tue 14-May-13 09:22:14

Watching very violent films, especially a lot of recent ones that don't even seem to have an artistic merit (I'm looking at you Saw, Hostel and The Human Centipede), just doesn't appeal to me. I've got quite a vivid imagination, and I find that once I've seen something like this, I can't un-see it, and I find it popping into my head at random times and it makes me feel ill. Scary films (paranormal, thriller types) that include an element of violence/gore are more appealing (although I'm not a fan of them either) because at least the violence had purpose. It just seems like horror films at the minute are an exercise in who can be the grossest, and plot/script/tone of the film are not even at the back of anyone's mind when the films are being made. They just don't entertain me, and I do find it a bit grim that other people are so entertained by crap like Hostel. To put it in perspective though, I love Game of Thrones, but am finding one of the current storylines (Theon) and the images that go with it, quite difficult to stomach, and it's actually putting me off the programme a bit. So maybe I've just got a particularly weak stomach or delicate sensibility.

VerySmallSqueak Tue 14-May-13 09:23:45

But I am never going to enjoy watching someone giving someone else a bloody good hiding in a realistic setting,however de sensitised I become.

I will in that way never become completely de sensitised.

Maybe some of the people who are de sensitised to 'realistic' violence watch horror/violence as a result of de sensitisation to violence.Maybe it isn't that watching it makes them become it,but vice versa.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

claig Tue 14-May-13 09:34:32

'Maybe some of the people who are de sensitised to 'realistic' violence watch horror/violence as a result of de sensitisation to violence.Maybe it isn't that watching it makes them become it,but vice versa.'

This is what they always tell us. but it is a lie. Watching this stuff reinforces any tendencies they may have and breaks down their barriers and boundaries even further. Watching crap fuels them further.

You have to understand the real purpose behind what they have decided to promote and fiance and show you. It is not about money, it is about deliberately altering your mind and breaking down your boundaries in order to desensitise you to violence.

Here are some reviews of the computer game "Call of Duty".

''The way a trained soldier holds and fires a gun is very specific and they’ve got the movement right, down to the last detail. It isn’t glorifying war, it’s bringing it into living rooms and simulating it as closely as possible,'
Andy McNab, The Sun

That is the purpose - to bring war and violence into your living room, to simulate it for you as closely as possible, to desnsitise you to it so that you will accept it. They've got it "down to the last detail" for you in order to desensitise you to the reality.

''The phrase “an assault on the senses” doesn’t come close: it’s thrilling, immersive, sometimes scary, always exciting, and occasionally overwhelming. Don’t worry. It won’t turn anyone into a killer,'
Charlie Brooker, The Guardian

It is an "assault on the senses" and it is deliberately so. It is meant to be "overwhelming". Progressives say, don't worry, it won't affect you, but of course it does and it is supposed to.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1226588/Call-Duty-Political-storm-brutal-video-game-allows-killing-civilians-airport-massacre.html

dontmeanto Tue 14-May-13 09:34:39

Easily I feel the same regarding Game of Thrones! Love it, but have to turn away as of late because of Theon. So yes, maybe I am particularly sensitive to this stuff. It is only fiction after all.

I guess I worry about my two babies being curious teenagers one day. Which is why I spend "too long" "over-analysing it." I s'pose it's up to me to really forewarn them on this stuff.

I worry the day my daughter goes on a sleepover, and one of the more brazen girls whips out a copy of Hostel for all of them to watch. Was bad enough being The Omen or Blair Witch Project when I was that age but this stuff is on a whole 'nother level!

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

claig Tue 14-May-13 09:49:54

The studios and conglomerates have no end of "talent" that is prepared to churn out this crap, so not all of the twats who make it will be able to get finance. The conglomerates concentrate on what they feel is the most effective use of their resources.

Money is thrown at companies who churn out stuff like "Call of Duty". They market it, promote it and advertise it and the public queues up at midnight to get their hands on the latest version. the public are being used and don't understand the purpose of the game.

"At HMV in Newcastle Mandy Peters, 44, a cleaner from Newcastle, bought the game for her 16-year-old son Luke.

She said: 'I know the game is an 18 certificate but I was still happy to buy it for him. If I don't buy it he would probably just play it at a friend's house.'

A shop assistant at the Game computer store in Coventry said: 'Managers told us not to sell it to anyone who looked under 21 but if they were with their parents we had to sell it to them.

'There were loads of young kids who had dragged their parents to the store so they could get their hands on the game. It made a bit of a mockery of the whole age-limit certificate.'

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1226588/Call-Duty-Political-storm-brutal-video-game-allows-killing-civilians-airport-massacre.html

<Wonders if Rob Zombie is a part of "^them^"> grin

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

claig Tue 14-May-13 09:57:05

But I am talking about graphic violence, and computer games and horror films are both parts of the same "assault on the senses" by the men in suits on an unsuspecting public who are pawns in their game.

claig Tue 14-May-13 10:00:49

They have turned graphic violence and evil into a game and a spectacle to be watched while chomping on potato crisps and drinking beer. They have desensitised people to shocking scenes deliberately. They are trying to simulate violence and war so that it enters your living room and so that you will be desensitised to it when it one day comes to your door.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MomOfTomStubby Tue 14-May-13 10:02:57

I grew up in the era of "I Spit on your grave", the Elm Street franchise, the Friday 13th franchise etc etc.

So I'm a bit hmm about the 'these days' comment.

Unless you mean all the vampire 'twilight' type movies

Binkybix Tue 14-May-13 10:03:05

I still don't understand to what end you think the 'men in suits' are motivated by? You say they want to desensitise us, but why do ku think they want us in this mind set?

I don't like it, but don't think it's a huge conspiracy.

claig Tue 14-May-13 10:09:32

'You say they want to desensitise us, but why do you think they want us in this mind set?'

Because they will rule us and if you read history you will see how rulers in the past ruled us. They are changing our society, breaking boundaries and "assaulting our senses". They are desensitising us to prepare us for the future they have planned for us. Read George Orwell.

"it aint right"

"and there was a lot of applause from the party seats but a woman down in the prole part of the house suddenly started kicking up a fuss and shouting they didnt oughter of showed it"

"nobody cares what the proles say"

MomOfTomStubby Tue 14-May-13 10:11:36

Binky - arguing with a conspiracy theorist, whether it's to do with moon landings or horror movies, never goes anywhere smile

Morloth Tue 14-May-13 10:22:51

Makes for an excellent thread though.

I am fine with 'fantasy' violence, but don't like anything that could possibly happen in real life nor anything to do with children.

Hence I will play Skyrim but not Call of Duty.

Fakebook Tue 14-May-13 10:31:06

Aaw, I love a good Illuminati thread. grin.

This is new. The level of graphic detail and gore that people are now exposed to is beyond anything that was ever shown or written about before in human history.

Soz claig, but I beg to differ. Public hangings, burning "witches" and the gladiatorial games were a teeny bit more horrific than films today. They were real. Can you imagine getting a 4D version of witch burning? The sight, the smell, the sounds?...that would have scared the shit out of me.

As for the illuminati and desensitisation of people: out of all my friends, I'm the only one who enjoys horror movies. Even my DH can't watch them. So they're not doing a very good job are they?(!)

claig Tue 14-May-13 10:34:32

' Public hangings, burning "witches" and the gladiatorial games were a teeny bit more horrific than films today.'

Of course they were and that is why we abolished them, just as we abolished bear baiting and other forms of cruelty.

But they are now making films that simulate the cruelty and horror and bring it into your own living room in graphic detail.

'Can you imagine getting a 4D version of witch burning? The sight, the smell, the sounds?'

Who is to say that the men in suits aren't working on such horrors already?

Morloth Tue 14-May-13 10:34:53

Do they all wear suits all the time? Are they all men?

IMO the violence is built into people, it is part of being human.

I don't watch the movies people are talking about and I definitely have a tendency towards violence that I need to consciously control and I am a 'nice' mummy who just potters along.

claig Tue 14-May-13 10:35:43

'I'm the only one who enjoys horror movies. Even my DH can't watch them. So they're not doing a very good job are they?(!)'

No they are not having it all their own way. Good always triumphs over evil and when the people wake up to what is being done to them deliberately, they will defeat the men in suits.

dontmeanto Tue 14-May-13 10:39:11

Witch burnings were not for entertainment. They were essentially there because of fear of satanism.

Gladiatorial games were for entertainment, but shouldn't we have evolved to NOT be entertained by watching other humans being tortured or violently killed? Even if fictitiously but realistically portrayed on screen?

claig Tue 14-May-13 10:39:47

'but don't like anything that could possibly happen in real life'

Thisis what ii ts all about. They want to make it real
they don't want fantasy, they want to simulate it for you in your own living room, to "assault your senses" and break boundaries so that you can experience the simulation "to the last detail".

They really want to make it real in all its nasty, evil, sickening gore.

they want you to become accustomed to it, to even queue up for it at midnight because they say it is real they want you to get used to and accept the reality that will be the future they intend to realise.

Morloth Tue 14-May-13 10:41:14

Who exactly is they claig?

I am inclined to think there is no 'they' only 'us'.

We get the society we deserve.

Tailtwister Tue 14-May-13 10:45:24

I agree, some of the stuff out there is really horrendous. I know it doesn't bother a lot of people, but I just can't watch it. The few (probably very tame) films I've seen have stayed with me and I find it very hard to get some of the images out of my head.

claig Tue 14-May-13 10:50:29

"I am inclined to think there is no 'they' only 'us'.

We get the society we deserve."

No. This is wrong. This is what the message they sell us. they even tell us we are to blame for the financial crisis because we borrowed too much. It is always our fault according to them.

The people in Russia didn't deserve Stalin and the people in Cambodia didn't deserve Pol Pot and the people in China didn't deserve Mao.

There is evil in this world, but people do not deserve it.

We have to stand up against it and prevent the hounds of hell being turned loose on us by evil people.

Fakebook Tue 14-May-13 10:50:29

Do the men in suits look like Will Smith? Because I'd like that.

I know we should have evolved into not being entertained by humans dying, but death is so mystifying to humans that people can't help being compelled into watching things that are out of the norm.

Yesterday my DH saw a man jump off a historical tower in our city centre. There was blood on the floor and the police cordoned off the area, but there were people standing in crowds taking pictures on their phones. You don't need something to be a form of entertainment for people to turn it into it.

Morloth Tue 14-May-13 10:55:05

It must be very stressful being you claig.

I can't tell if you actually believe what you are typing or if you are just shitting us - either way it is entertaining.

I think I will take my chances with the men in suits rather than have some other men in suits tell me what is suitable for me.

claig Tue 14-May-13 10:55:31

'There was blood on the floor and the police cordoned off the area'

The police rightly cordoned off the area
They prevented the ghoulish from getting too close and they respected teh human being by probably covering the body and shielding it from public view.

These films are totally different. they show no respect to human life. they disect "down to the last detail" every twist and turn and suffering of a human being. They revel in the sickening, prolonged realism of blood, gore and death.

They are evil in their wallowing in suffering.

claig Tue 14-May-13 10:57:15

'It must be very stressful being you claig.'

Common sense and decency is not stressful. On the contrary.

Morloth Tue 14-May-13 10:58:41

So you are not actually concerned about this vast conspiracy then?

If you actually believed what you are saying you would be very stressed indeed surely?

"But they are now making films that simulate the cruelty and horror and bring it into your own living room in graphic detail."

Key word there is simulate.

You have been dangerously over thinking this and actually I think you must be pretty ill if you actually believe all this shite. hides OFRS

claig Tue 14-May-13 11:00:32

I can't change the world. I only try to understand it.
I can't rid the world of evil, I can only try to expose it.

Morloth Tue 14-May-13 11:01:40

So no need for concern then?

Excellent.

I shall continue on my brainwashed way.

claig Tue 14-May-13 11:02:39

'Key word there is simulate'

They are simulating it "down to the last detail". They are trying to make it as real as they can.

Good, I quite like a bit of realistic violence. wink

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

claig Tue 14-May-13 11:05:54

'I shall continue on my brainwashed way.'

You shouldn't do that. Because brainwashing harms you and and "assaults your senses". You have to try and realise what is being done and why and you have to try and protect yourself and your family and friends and society from what is being done to it.

Don't buy the crap, don't watch the crap, and vote for MPs who want to censor the crap.

And don't you think that if this was all real "they" would just get on with the violence and brutality? Why would they even give a toss if we were de-sensitised to it, surely that's counter productive if they're wanting to go the whole way with torture and killing a violence.

Fakebook Tue 14-May-13 11:06:21

Claig, stop hero worshipping yourself. You're not exposing anything that needs to be exposed.

Now excuse me, I need to go and sharpen my biggest kitchen knives.

Ohh popcorn. I'll have the toffee stuff please. grin

<settles in for another day of madness>

Fakebook Tue 14-May-13 11:11:11

Schro, forget the popcorn, lets "play a little game". You have 10 seconds to unlock the bomb I've attached to your head with the key I've hidden inside your left kidney, or else your brains will explode all over AIBU. Your time starts now!

Morloth Tue 14-May-13 11:11:44

Knives are no good Fakebook, do you actually know how to knife fight?

In horror movies people always go for the knives.

This is a mistake. What you want is something long, hard and heavy wink. A poker, a chair leg, something that doesn't require any finesse or skill. Possibly a small knife that the bad guy doesn't know you have. Waving a big knife around is likely to result in a chopped off head.

I have to stop actually, I think Schro might be onto something with the concern for claig's mental health which probably means I should not be poking her.

claig Tue 14-May-13 11:13:30

'And don't you think that if this was all real "they" would just get on with the violence and brutality? Why would they even give a toss if we were de-sensitised to it, surely that's counter productive if they're wanting to go the whole way with torture and killing a violence.'

They can't do that. That is not how the world works. If they tried that, then there would be resistance, people would wake up. That is why they want to acclimatise people to it by assaulting the senses amd altering minds by a constant stream of ever more detailed and realistic gore. Before they can achieve their goals, they have to desensitise people, to break their boundaries and break their will.

GetOrfMoiLand Tue 14-May-13 11:14:02

<ignores strangeness>

The violence prevalent in films today is different to what was around in the 80s. For instance compare the first Terminator film to the later ones - the first one people were just shot and killed, and in later ones purposefully the films were not as violent in such a graphic way. Loads of shoot 'em up films in the 80s where the random violence looks quite shocking today.

Yet, I cannot remember when I was a kid the torture porn type movies. Something like Hostel or Saw - I cannot imagine why people would watch something so unremittingly grim.

I think there seems to be more sexual violence as well - even if shown 'mildly'. For instance CSI or Criminal Minds. Always seem to have a semi naked woman dead on a mortuary slab. And some of the storylines border on titilating imo. And that is a mainstream tv show.

I can cope with violent films and TV if it has a comedy/comic book type element (I don't know what that says about me) - I wouldn't watch a gory horror but quite happily sit there laughing at terrible films like Final Destination, and Quentin Tarantino films I think are wonderful despite being blood soaked.

Ohhh Saw stylee. I'm gross enough that I am sure I would do it. blush

Morloth I thought it was hilarious last night but the more I see on this thread, the more obvious it seems that Claig has a severe problem with paranoia.

We take the OFRS thread with a pinch of salt while we are shitting it, this is different.

Fakebook Tue 14-May-13 11:18:13

Morloth, I have barbecue skewers? I could hide them in my sleeves and poke eyes with them? I don't know how to knife fight, but I've watched Scream a few times and I think I've perfected the stabbing motion. Just need to put it into practise now wink

claig Tue 14-May-13 11:18:22

I have no problem with paranoia, just as Orwell didn't have either.

I've never watched this stuff - a good Hitchcock is my limit.

Rarely watch any 18 certificate film as extreme violence seems to be mandatory.
DH and I joke that we'd like more sex and less violence in our viewing smile
But sex only seems to be "allowed" these days if it's accompanied by some pretty serious violence too.

Basically give me a film where the characters are well observed, the script is well written, and as a bonus there's some gentle romance, and I'll be happy.
Seems I'm in the minority though sad

Claig It's pretty apparent that you do. You should really speak to someone about this as it is not normal to immerse yourself in conspiracies like this.

Morloth Tue 14-May-13 11:21:41

Hmmm not sure about skewers.

I do wonder where people's rage and/or survival instincts go in those movies.

Either attempt to leave the building or inflict as much pain as possible on the baddy.

Don't fuck around in your undies screaming.

claig Tue 14-May-13 11:22:29

Schro, forgive me if I ignore your considered diagnosis, as it seems plain that you are not as aware as you think you are, since you don't understand why these violent films and computer games are now so prolific.

claig Tue 14-May-13 11:23:33

sorry, that should be
so prolific and horrific

Yes, it's me who has a problem because I don't believe that men in suits that Orwell wrote about in his fictional book 1948 are against us all and trying to de-sensitise us using movies and games that a bloody massive amount of people are against anyway.

Morloth It's when they run up the stairs that annoys the hell out of me, into the bathroom with a shite lock and no window and a nail file or something. hmm

claig Tue 14-May-13 11:25:25

'Seems I'm in the minority though'

Juggling, your are in the majority. The gore fans are in the minority.

claig Tue 14-May-13 11:26:21

'Yes, it's me who has a problem because'

That is the least of your problems.

aldiwhore Tue 14-May-13 11:28:21

Gore films were extraordinarily popular and plentiful in the 70's and 80's - but they were banned, and prohibition made them even more popular.

My DH is a gore fan, he's a passive, chilled out gentle person. As a kid he was interested in how they made things look so real, and that was part of the challenge for film makers, especially once the use of animals was banned (rightly).

Mostly, the films of the 70's and 80's were shite, apart from a few very good ones (still sick though, and for me, thoroughly enjoyable) but no less grusome than those of today. In many ways, some of them were sicker.

It is fantasy. And as long as people understand the difference between fantasy and reality, they are perfectly harmless, in fact they may actually serve a purpose... I always feel a bit better when someone I don't 'like' gets it in a movie, it doesn't mean I wish the same on actual people.

When the fantasy/reality lines get blurred things get messy, but I don't think it's about 'desensitising' people so they think it's okay, it's more that these films can give those with reality rage, certain mental illnesses or damage (lack of real community, lack of prospects, lack of self worth)ideas. Take away the films, and the gore, people wouldn't suddenly murder people naicely, they would just use their imagination rather than film reference.

You really shouldn't part quote. It's fucking annoying and done simply to make it look like you are in the right.

If you're going to enter into a discussion like this with wild claims then at least give a decent argument and quote full statements and not just the parts you like.

Very Daily Mail.

claig Tue 14-May-13 11:30:47

'Very Daily Mail.'

Thank you for the compliment. That is my favourite newspaper.

Well that explains a lot.

GetOrfMoiLand Tue 14-May-13 11:31:53

I suppose though aldi that the gory films in the 70s and 80s were not so mainstream as the torture porn films of today. And everything is far easier to access now - expect getting hold of a video of a gory film in the early 80s was reasonably difficult. Mind you instant access is not just a problem for violence is it. <rambles on>

My daughter plays Call of Duty - I was actually expecting that to be a lot more gory than it actually is.

dontmeanto Tue 14-May-13 11:32:54

Oh jesus.

<hides own thread>

claig Tue 14-May-13 11:35:41

This is a report on Call of Duty in the Mail

"In the most controversial scene, the player is a CIA operative who has infiltrated a Russian terror group involved in a gun attack on an airport.

In order to protect his cover, the agent can join in the slaughter of civilians.
The scene has been compared to last year's Mumbai terror attacks. The level is prefaced with a warning and an option to skip it, but many are disgusted at its inclusion.

Keith Vaz MP, the chairman of the Commons home affairs select committee, said he was 'absolutely shocked' that the game contained such scenes of 'brutality'.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1226588/Call-Duty-Political-storm-brutal-video-game-allows-killing-civilians-airport-massacre.html

I think Keith Vaz is right.

I don't read the Mail, not gullible enough to believe a word that is written in it.

claig Tue 14-May-13 11:38:31

'I don't read the Mail, not gullible enough to believe a word that is written in it.'

But you enjoy watching horror gore movies instead.

GetOrfMoiLand Tue 14-May-13 11:39:27

Claig do you mean to be so obtuse?

Yes I do, at least with movies it's obvious that they are lying.

If you believe anything written in the Mail then I can see why you believe this stuff.

As I said I am a gore fan. I think that watching some stuff stops us going into a false sense of security. There are seriously depraved people in the world and we need order and laws to make it safe for all. Most of us on this site are women with children, the most vulnerable in society. Sometimes we need to be reminded how bad "it could be out there" if we didn't live in such a controlled society. Compare the UK to parts of Africa and I think we would all agree how lucky we are. I would rather get these messages through horror films than by watching real life stuff, which I admitted to on another thread (via U-Tube). It reminds us of our human frailness. In the 80's there was books around, such as Mandingo etc, about slavery, they included child rape as well as torture, much more disturbing than a Saw film, that these were mainstream.

claig Tue 14-May-13 11:41:21

Sorry, what is obtuse about it.

You said

"My daughter plays Call of Duty - I was actually expecting that to be a lot more gory than it actually is."

and I quoted a report where keith Vaz was reported as saying the following about it

"Keith Vaz MP, the chairman of the Commons home affairs select committee, said he was 'absolutely shocked' that the game contained such scenes of 'brutality'."

Good post Birds.

LadyBeagleEyes Tue 14-May-13 11:44:23

Claig is our pet Conspiracy theorist on MN.
She/he has never fully explained who They are yet though.
I don't like violent or scary films and never have, they're not for me but unless someone is that way inclined anyway, I don't think it unduly influences people.

GetOrfMoiLand Tue 14-May-13 11:44:49

Well, if we are being pedantic you posted a 4 year old article referring to a different game entirely than my daughter (who is an adult btw) plays.

But I wasn't talking about that - rather your quote "'I don't read the Mail, not gullible enough to believe a word that is written in it.'

But you enjoy watching horror gore movies instead."

What is obtuse is your endlessly linking the DM as fact to support your spurious arguments and comparing that with people choosing to watch horror films for entertainment purposes. There seems to be a line in your head confusing fact and fiction (certainly, if you are citing the DM as a credible source).

Morloth Tue 14-May-13 11:47:40

Hang on, I thought the DM was the paper for 'The Man'.

Wouldn't they be the Men In Suits' natural allies?

claig Tue 14-May-13 11:48:42

'I think that watching some stuff stops us going into a false sense of security. There are seriously depraved people in the world and we need order and laws to make it safe for all.'

The problem is that many of these filmamkers are depicting the depravity of people like that for entertainment in gory excruciating detail. It is not healthy and they know it, and they are not doing it to stop us going into a false sense of security. In afct, I think they are doing it in order to shock, frighten and traumatise us.

unfortunately, the Daily Mail online has far too many shocking reports that I think are not good for people to click on. Yesterday there was an article about what a Syrian rebel chief did to a captured prisoner. I didn't click on it, because I think it is too shocking to read about. This stuff is traumatising to even read about and should not be printed in such detail.

Morloth You actually have a point there, they are the newspaper that spouts all the shite about disabled people/poor etc. The newspaper that turns normal people against other normal people.

I worry about coming out of the Eu, mainly because of the erosion of the Human Rights Act, there's a real agenda that could spark a (believable) conspiracy theory.

claig Tue 14-May-13 11:50:53

'Wouldn't they be the Men In Suits' natural allies?'

Certainly not. if you read the Daily Mail regularly, then you would realise that it rails against 'the Man' and the men in suits and is in fact the people's paper.

That is why it is against these type of gore films in general and is for censorship.

Claig We shouldn't censor what is going on in the world just to please ourselves and pretend that it doesn't happen.

If you find it shocking how do you think the people it happened to felt? It's best we understand that these things do happen and humans are generally pretty fragile.

There is no point in trying to live on a fluffy cloud of cotton wool censoring everything that bothers us.

holy moly! cant believe this is still going on!

and stop talking about the daily fail... its full of shite!

people really do believe everything they read it seems confused

claig Tue 14-May-13 11:54:08

I agree we shouldn't censor the facts. But I don't think we should report on it in all its graphic horror.

Claig The Mail use lies and shock tactics to turn people against the most vulnerable members of society.

It's a load of badly written drivel.

Birds That's a good point. One thing I like about being part of Britain is that we have the EU and human rights.

AmberSocks Tue 14-May-13 11:54:29

they dont bother me unless they involve children,i read the synopsis for a serbian film after hearing about it on here and its still in my mind now occasionally and really upsets me.

Claig These things do need to be reported in all their graphic horror.

Why pretend that stuff that is happening all over the world and is proven to be true isn't happening, while sticking up for a conspiracy and trying to spread awareness of that, when you don't even have any idea who you are actually accusing of this.

Report the facts and forget the crap.

Amber Sorry, that may have been from a thread I started. I watched it and was very upset about it and thought to warn others not to watch it. I was being an idiot and didn't think of the fact most wouldn't even know about it.

claig Tue 14-May-13 12:00:00

'Report the facts and forget the crap.'

Precisely. That is why I choose to read the Daily Mail instead of the Guardian.

Our TV news reports do not show the result of bombings etc in all their true horror. We do not show the most horrific images, whereas broadcasters in some countries do show the injuries.

I think we are right not to show the full footage because it is traumatising. We should report the facts but not show the full detail.

I feel the same about horror movies. Horror and scares have always been written about or shown, but we should not be showing gory excrucitaing detail because it is traumatising and affects the mind.

The Daily Mail don't report facts! Most of what they print is completely fabricated, turning normal people against disabled, poor and vulnerable people. It turns neighbours against other neighbours.

I don't think most gore is traumatising because I know it is fake!

claig Tue 14-May-13 12:04:35

'I don't think most gore is traumatising because I know it is fake!'

But all movies are fake. But we still have film censors who make sure that scenes of utter depravity are not shown to the public. We must have limits.

MomOfTomStubby Tue 14-May-13 12:06:35

I made the mistake of letting my DC play Angry Birds when he was younger. I took his Touch away when I found him chucking birds at the fence. That game certainly desensitised my DC, at least where birds are concerned [insert Piss Taking emoticon]

aldiwhore Tue 14-May-13 12:09:11

Storytelling is about evoking emotion, good storytelling makes you feel things that you may not like feeling. Fairytales would be shit if there was no utterly wicked baddy.

Horror films are simply stories that are lacking in a happy ending (mostly) telling stories about how bad our fears can really be. They are valid storytelling devices for grown ups.

I am more likely to feel despair when watching a slushy romance than I am watching a zombie apocolypse.

Fakebook Tue 14-May-13 12:12:14

Claig, so basically you're saying that you'd rather read and be exposed to censored, indoctrinated bullshit, rather than be told the real truth? confused

claig Tue 14-May-13 12:14:08

'Claig, so basically you're saying that you'd rather read and be exposed to censored, indoctrinated bullshit, rather than be told the real truth?'

No, I have already said that I do not read the Guardian.
I want the facts but without the gory detail.

aldiwhore Tue 14-May-13 12:14:40

Film 'censors' are actually more interested in making sure a film is in the right category, not to removed things that make us feel uncomfortable.

When censorship was rife thanks to good old Mary Whitehouse, the industry still thrived, underground, and then it was impossible to know who was watching what... the black market doesn't care who sees their goods so long as they're sold. Prohibition does not work.

I am all for correct certification, and am all for more laws to prevent children from being sold films and games that are WAY beyond what is reasonable for a developing brain to view. I would even support some kind of guidelines to ensure that those with a history of violence are monitored better whether they watch gore or not and I think that an awareness of MH care, action, help and intervention would be much more valuable than removing anything that may prompt a very BAD IDEA.

needaholidaynow Tue 14-May-13 12:14:46

I hate films that are full of gore. They really depress me.

Saw, Hostel, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Human Centipede. I have watched them in the past and what I saw really really disturbed me. It makes me apply it to real life and how utterly petrified people would be if these dreadful things actually happened. Never again.

It also makes me wonder how sick you have to be to write these plots for films!

AmberSocks Tue 14-May-13 12:16:13

Schro-dont worry im sure i would of heard about it from somewhere eventually,i seem to have this wierd curiosity thing when someone says dont watch this its upsetting it makes me want to go and find out why!

Also read the synopsis for human centipede two and that involved a baby and really upset me too,i doubt i would be able to watch any of those films just reading about them stays with me for too long.

claig Tue 14-May-13 12:17:40

Here is a report on how violent games and movies are desensitising young men to violence.

'Dr Grafman said: 'The implications of this are many and include the idea that continued exposure to violent videos will make an adolescent less sensitive to violence, more accepting of violence and more likely to commit aggressive acts since the emotional component associated with aggression is reduced and normally acts as a brake on aggressive behaviour.

'No prior study has examined this from the complete perspective we had.'
The study also found boys who had the most exposure to violent media in their daily lives, as measured by screening tests and questions in their initial meeting with the researchers, showed the greatest desensitisation.'

www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1321627/Violent-films-video-games-TV-shows-DO-make-boys-aggressive.html

And I don't buy the 18 year limit. I think there is no difference on the effect that this crap has on a 17 year old and 364 days as sopposed to an 18 year old and 1 day.

And 50 year old thugs and football hooligans are just as influenced by this tide of crap and violence as teenagers are, in my opinion.

Amber I watched that too, it was awful but not nearly as bad as the other movie.

SPOILER ALERT The Mother and baby survived btw.

claig Tue 14-May-13 12:23:56

Our school education programme is in part a socialisation process to teach children to be kind and good and well-behaved and not to hurt or bully others.

And then as young adults they are exposed to a tide of violent games and movies which depict gratuitous violence and ask them to participate in games that enact it.

Claig You are wasting your time quoting the Daily Fail over and over, there are very few on this site who will give it the time of day.

AmberSocks Tue 14-May-13 12:28:13

Schro really?how do you know?is there a 3rd one?

claig Tue 14-May-13 12:28:18

I fear you are right. Which is why we are going to hell in a handcart and violent gore is becoming more and more mainstream.

Need and Claig, do you realise that a film maker hasn't just come up with these plots? Ed Gein, for example has inspired Leather Face from the Texas Chainsaw Massacre, as well as hundreds of bits/characters in other horror film. Hostel is one up from snuff films, were real people can be purchased and killed for fun. The HC came from Nazi experiments, there were some really sick experiments carried out in Japan. We need to know what happens in the world, as we all vote. We also need to acknowledge what has happened, that is why "Holocaust Denial" couldn't continue. We need the details, so we know how bad things are, otherwise how can we work towards stopping them? What happened in Nazi Germany, happened because it was ignored. What happens in horror film isn't an invention, it is happening somewhere in the world, now.

aldiwhore Tue 14-May-13 12:31:55

Claig I disagree. The problem is not the films it's the society that does a disservice to people on every level. Consumerism leaves a person empty when there's nothing BUT consumerism.

I agree that the disillusioned are more likely to lose themselves in fantasy than a happy stable fulfilled person would be, whatever that fantasy is. I agree that some of those fantasies carry potential dangers to a disillusioned mind.

The films/games/music are not the problem, the fact that they can be linked to violent acts is indicitive of a symptom, they are not the cause.

Sort out society and levels of violence will decrease. And by sorting out I mean endevouring to give everyone a sense of LIFE, fulfillment, opportunity to work hard for good rewards, people in power leading by example, less corporate greed, less credit, more acknowledgement of the human being.

The films will still exist, but within a healthy society, less people will be inclined to act them out in reality.

fromparistoberlin Tue 14-May-13 12:32:07

"Claig You are wasting your time quoting the Daily Fail over and over, there are very few on this site who will give it the time of day.

Erm, every other thread seems to be DM link these days! I beg to differ!

Amber She got away at the end of the movie and had the baby in the car? I assumed she survived, don't think there is a third one.

Oh no actually... I don't think the baby did.

Sorry. sad <blanked it out>

From And most of the replies are people saying what a waste of the the DM is and how they wont click on the link as they refuse to give them views.

AmberSocks Tue 14-May-13 12:36:31

Yeah it said something bad happened to the baby in the thing i read.trying not to think about it!

claig Tue 14-May-13 12:36:53

Birds, we need to know history and we need to what evil acts have been committed. But we don't need to see horrors and tortures reenacted in graphic, gory detail for entertainment. Horrors and tortures are traumatising and should not be reenacted. They should be reported on but there is no need to portray the graphic detail.

Claig, the "50 year old football hooligan" came from a time when male violence was acceptable. I grew up in that time, I am in my 40's. "Paki and Gay" bashing was also seen as a lifestyle choice. DV wasn't illegal, as wasn't rape in marriage. Schools were violent, with little more than a telling off, as was prisons, YOI, there was still corporal punishment. "They" best re-think things, because as we get more gore, we are alongside becoming more controlled, it is having the opposite effect, if what you say is true.

Sorry again Amber. <reminds herself to know when to shut up>

claig Tue 14-May-13 12:45:10

"They" best re-think things, because as we get more gore, we are alongside becoming more controlled, it is having the opposite effect, if what you say is true.

Yes, we are becoming more controlled and regulated while at the same time becoming more desensitised.

That is exactly what happened in Orwell's dystopian vision of the future, 1984, too.

WMittens Tue 14-May-13 12:45:15

I remember they tried horror films without the violence and gore; there was one where a woman was knitting, and dropped her ball of wool and it unravelled all over the floor. She spent ages trying to re-roll it and she had to get the sweater finished by next morning.

It didn't do very well at the test screenings.

Claig, I think we do need to know the details. Our government and that of the US has benefited from many atrocities and "experiments" from the past. I can remember it being argued that the Nazi war criminals were old men and should be left alone. It was important to know the extent of what they did, so we can make informed choices. The same when the discussion whether war criminals should be bought to the UK alive, or kill them if there is a possibility of escape. We are often not talking about children being lined up and shot, we need to know what some people are capable of, to, as I say, make informed choices about how to counteract that. The same with mistakes made by the US Army in Vietnam, this allows us to re-think the age of our Army and how we train and organise the troops and the help when they return home. This information shouldn't be for a privileged few, that would be setting up a "them" and "us".

Claig, I think we do need to know the details. Our government and that of the US has benefited from many atrocities and "experiments" from the past. I can remember it being argued that the Nazi war criminals were old men and should be left alone. It was important to know the extent of what they did, so we can make informed choices. The same when the discussion whether war criminals should be bought to the UK alive, or kill them if there is a possibility of escape. We are often not talking about children being lined up and shot, we need to know what some people are capable of, to, as I say, make informed choices about how to counteract that. The same with mistakes made by the US Army in Vietnam, this allows us to re-think the age of our Army and how we train and organise the troops and the help when they return home. This information shouldn't be for a privileged few, that would be setting up a "them" and "us".

claig Tue 14-May-13 12:48:05

'there was one where a woman was knitting, and dropped her ball of wool and it unravelled all over the floor. She spent ages trying to re-roll it and she had to get the sweater finished by next morning.'

That sounds like one of these avant-garde type films, and I expect the critics gave it great reviews.

gordyslovesheep Tue 14-May-13 12:48:13

I would never vote for people who want to control what I choose to watch.

I understand that films are.not real ...thus I am not desensitized to violence ...just to fake blood and bad acting

claig Tue 14-May-13 12:49:19

Birds, yes we must know what crimes were committed, but we don't need to see civilians being shot in Vietnam before our eyes, or horrors portrayed in gory detail.

claig Tue 14-May-13 12:51:04

'there was one where a woman was knitting, and dropped her ball of wool and it unravelled all over the floor. She spent ages trying to re-roll it and she had to get the sweater finished by next morning.'

Was this a taxpayer supported film which had received a public grant from the great and the good?

The outcry against the Syrian massacre's from all walks of life, show that we are not becoming desensitised when it comes to RL. The work done by schools in terms of Charity collections is making everyone aware that there is human suffering that needs to be stopped. When I was growing up (in the area I now live in) no-one cared what happened to who, only local politics. Everyone now has an opinion on world wide Human issues and are getting involved in some way.

needaholidaynow Tue 14-May-13 12:55:38

Well I think it makes it even worse that they have used inspiration from real life to make these films. sad

claig Tue 14-May-13 12:56:54

'The films/games/music are not the problem, the fact that they can be linked to violent acts is indicitive of a symptom, they are not the cause.

Sort out society and levels of violence will decrease. And by sorting out I mean endevouring to give everyone a sense of LIFE, fulfillment, opportunity to work hard for good rewards, people in power leading by example, less corporate greed, less credit, more acknowledgement of the human being.'

aldi, I think some of these films can trigger some violent behaviour, just like someone being immersed in hateful messages or criminal circles can be influenced to commit crimes. I think these films are not just passive, but can affect the minds of some of the viewers who watch them.

I think that if football fans spend time watching films on football violence, it may cause some of them to act out what they have seen.

There is evil in the world and there are evil people too, and I am against anything that fuels evil and influences people to carry out evil acts.

I will have to agree to disagree. People are starting to see the full evil behind human trafficking and how the girls end up in Lap dancing, prostitution etc, thanks to well written documentaries. I was taking to a male acquaintance and he was saying, admittedly, that going by the advert he watched a drama for titillation, but was sickened by it. I think that is good, it has changed his opinion. Some acts cannot ever and should not ever be justified, without knowing the full details, we are in danger of doing that.

I will have to agree to disagree. People are starting to see the full evil behind human trafficking and how the girls end up in Lap dancing, prostitution etc, thanks to well written documentaries. I was taking to a male acquaintance and he was saying, admittedly, that going by the advert he watched a drama for titillation, but was sickened by it. I think that is good, it has changed his opinion. Some acts cannot ever and should not ever be justified, without knowing the full details, we are in danger of doing that.

needaholidaynow Tue 14-May-13 13:00:44

There are some weird fucked up people in this world. Just look at the boys who killed James Bulger. They were obsessed with the Chucky film.

Enough said.

claig Tue 14-May-13 13:01:01

'there was one where a woman was knitting, and dropped her ball of wool and it unravelled all over the floor. She spent ages trying to re-roll it and she had to get the sweater finished by next morning.'

Was this film panned by the Daily Mail and praised by the Guardian?

claig Tue 14-May-13 13:01:45

Exactly, needaholiday.

OrangeFootedScrubfowl Tue 14-May-13 13:10:50

People are bloodthirsty. It's easy to offer something that panders to our baser instincts.

I don't mind supernatural or comedy horror in the slightest, but I do feel that anybody involved in A Serbian Film should probably be locked up.

OnwardBound Tue 14-May-13 13:13:12

I think there is a big difference between fantasy horror about zombies and vampires for example and torture porn stuff.

Why anyone would want to watch scenes of people being tortured physically and psychologically is beyond me.

Especially when we all know that there are people out there, serial killers and the like who truly do get off on this sort of thing and actually act out their depraved fantasies.

Let alone the horror and vile acts that occur in war zones sad

I don't know how anyone can sit down with a bucket of popcorn on a Saturday night and decide to watch someone being tortured and murdered as entertainment, even if it is only acting.

Because it is entirely possible that someone somewhere has had something akin to this horror enacted on them and I think it is more than a bit off as a society to treat watching it as an enjoyable experience.

The only time I can tolerate it is if it depicting real life events and the scenes of torture are integral to the experience. I still find it incredibly hard going and can only watch through my fingers a lot of the time though.

claig Tue 14-May-13 13:14:11

Exactly, Orange, this is about "pandering to baser instincts".

As a society, we want to promote good instead of evil and social instead of anti-social messages.

AmberSocks Tue 14-May-13 13:20:45

its easy though,some-most-people enjoy being scared/disgusted/upset by something that they know isnt real.its not to everyones taste but it doesnt mean your a wierdo for watching that stuff.we just need to be careful kids dont see it.

OrangeFootedScrubfowl Tue 14-May-13 13:21:36

Wmittens Horror films without violence or gore can be fantastically scary! Real horror is all in the mind, you don't need a bucket of blood on screen necessarily. That knitting film could be great with a few spooky faces at the window with unravelling scarves and click clacking continuing when nobody is actually knitting.

gordyslovesheep Tue 14-May-13 13:23:24

They where not obsessed with chuky films ...seriously!

I'll pass on the Stepford society, which would have to practice Eugenics and ban immigration. I like the idea that my DD's know what goes on in the world, so they can protect themselves. If we don't know the extent of the dangers, we don't take it seriously enough. Since we have been more informed and educated against child abuse, for example, we are becoming better at protecting our children. I watch torture type "pornish" films, I know that they are fictitious, so it is entertainment. I have sobbed at some of the RL stuff I have seen. We could never ban all violent media, otherwise history would be a taboo subject, better to be entertained by fiction than reality. Why we are entertained by this, I will leave the thousands of psychologists to argue it out and whether it is just part of being human. My enjoyment of horror is one of the things that stops me from describing myself as Buddhist, so I have thought deeply about this, as well as having to be academically qualifies on the various arguments for and against.

VerySmallSqueak Tue 14-May-13 14:23:11

I like watching zombie films because it gives me a thrill.

The feelings of suspense - the knowledge that someone will make a bad decision and come a cropper-the excitement - the knowledge that I would do it all better and survive come the zombocalypse because I've watched so many films I'm an expert blush.

It's a good outlet.
We are made to need a bit of adrenaline - it's part of our human make up.
We used to climb and run and swim in rivers.We are still the same creatures we always were.
It's quite natural imo to watch something that raises our pulse rate a little.

KitchenandJumble Tue 14-May-13 16:12:27

I'll try to ignore the conspiracy theories, which I find silly in the extreme. If anyone could offer me the name of even one of these "men in suits," I'd be surprised. I certainly don't think the answer is to introduce more censorship. That way madness lies.

However, I am concerned about some of the ways that art influences life. In Jane Mayers' excellent book "The Dark Side," she describes how both the rationale for torture and the torture techniques used in Guantanamo and elsewhere were directly influenced by the TV series "24." If we choose to become desensitised to violence, to accept that what we see on our screens is acceptable in our lives, then we are heading down a very dangerous path indeed.

OnwardBound Tue 14-May-13 16:43:59

VerySmallSqueak I agree. I have enjoyed watching such films as '28 days later' which depicted gory images of eye gouging et al.

However I am able to compartmentalise this somewhere in my brain as fantasy. Despite what some MNs seem to believe it is highly unlikely that a zombiapocalypse will ever occur, in our lifetime anyway grin

But as Kitchen described, it is perhaps more possible that the human race is becoming desensitised to images of extreme violence and torture. Once we start enjoying it and seeing it as entertainment, particularly when it is depicted in more realistic circumstances albeit that of a serial killer who we are also statistically very unlikely to ever encounter.

But the reality is that some poor individuals have encountered these sick and cruel individuals, ie the girls who suffered at the hands of Fred and Rose West. Or the children that are tortured in the name of "religion".

It seems to me to demean their memory to then act as if 'realistic' style torture porn is in any way a form of entertainment for the masses.

But I accept that some people do enjoy this genre of film making. I don't understand it at all though.

claig Tue 14-May-13 16:46:25

'In Jane Mayers' excellent book "The Dark Side," she describes how both the rationale for torture and the torture techniques used in Guantanamo and elsewhere were directly influenced by the TV series "24."'

Is that one of these silly conspiracy theories?

Why don't you read people other than just Jane Myers. Conspiracy theorists who probably know ten times what she knows about how it works, who pays for it and why it is used to acclimatise people to what is happening and what will happen.

Do you really think that the screenwriter for "24" knows more about the techniques than those who do it?

KitchenandJumble Tue 14-May-13 16:52:59

Have you read Mayer's book, claig? She certainly is not a conspiracy theorist.

Which books would you recommend, other than 1984?

StuntGirl Tue 14-May-13 16:53:37

Oh jesus.

<hides own thread>

grin I think that's the best course of action OP...

claig Tue 14-May-13 17:01:08

"In 2004, Mayer wrote an article on George Soros and other progressive billionaires who sought "to use their fortunes to engineer the defeat of President George W. Bush in the 2004 election." The article described Soros's "extreme measures" and how his "outsized financial role in the election" has "stirred alarm."[26]"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Mayer

I have just looked her up on wikipedia. Jane Mayer is a top journalist for the New Yorker. So she is no conspiracy theorist. The title of her book is te Dark Side: The Inside story of how the War on Terror Turned into a War on American Ideals.

Lots of conspiracy theorists say similar things and don't believe that it happened by chance, which probably differs from what she says, I don't know because I haven't read it.

"Her achievement," wrote reviewer Andrew J. Bacevich in The Washington Post, "lies less in bringing new revelations to light than in weaving into a comprehensive narrative a story revealed elsewhere in bits and pieces."[18] The volume, wrote Bacevich, a Boston University professor, "is a very fine book."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Mayer

'Which books would you recommend, other than 1984?'

There is no book better than 1984, it is all in there. But I would recommend other books by Orwell. i would recommend Gore Vidal and I would recommend you to read some conspiracy theorists too if you really want to understand what goes on.

KitchenandJumble Tue 14-May-13 17:12:07

I think I have a pretty good understanding of what goes on, thanks.

Mayer's book "The Dark Side" is excellent. I'd highly recommend it to everybody on this thread.

I think "1984" is a pretty good novel. I quite enjoy some dystopian fiction now and again.

VerySmallSqueak Tue 14-May-13 17:14:09

'1984' was ok.

But a few zombies chucked in would have spiced it up a bit.

claig Tue 14-May-13 17:21:20

'I think I have a pretty good understanding of what goes on, thanks.'

This is from a Washinton post review of her book, The Dark Side

By the way the Dark Side is an apt description of the evil of the promotion of violent horror gore movies too.

"With the appearance of this very fine book, Hillary Clinton can claim a belated vindication of sorts: A right-wing conspiracy does indeed exist, although she misapprehended its scope and nature. The conspiracy is not vast and does not consist of Clinton-haters. It is small, secretive and made up chiefly of lawyers contemptuous of the Constitution and the rule of law.

...

Under the guise of "enhanced interrogation techniques," it has succeeded, in Mayer's words, in "making torture the official law of the land in all but name." Further, it has done all these things as a direct result of policy decisions made at the highest levels of government.

...

Above all, the story Mayer tells is one of fear and its exploitation.

That fear should trump concern for due process and indeed justice qualifies as a recurring phenomenon in American history. In 1919, government-stoked paranoia about radicalism produced the Red Scare. After Pearl Harbor, hysteria mixed with racism led to the confinement of some 110,000 Japanese Americans in internment camps. The onset of the Cold War triggered another panic, anxieties about a new communist threat giving rise to McCarthyism. In this sense, the response evoked by 9/11 looks a bit like déjà vu all over again: Frightened Americans, more worried about their own safety than someone else's civil liberties, allowed senior government officials to exploit a climate of fear

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/07/11/ST2008071101354.html

The silly conspiracy theories that you know little about often say similar things.

Horror movies with extreme violence are also about fear
They also exploit fear and they desensitise people to violence.

claig Tue 14-May-13 17:27:22

Oh and by the way, shows like "24" also desensitise people to violence and torture and even show I think government agencies doing it, although I don't know, because i don't watch horror gore crap or "24" crap either.

KitchenandJumble Tue 14-May-13 17:28:21

VerySmallSqueak, that made me guffaw. grin

StuntGirl Tue 14-May-13 17:28:25

Texas Chainsaw Massacre is my favourite personally.

Although I do like the bit in Jason X where he batters the camping girls in their sleeping bags.

claig Tue 14-May-13 17:34:56

"But on the present season of "24" torture has gone from being an infrequent shock bid to being a main thread of the plot. At least a half-dozen characters have undergone interrogation under conditions that meet conventional definitions of torture."

Normalizing Torture on 24

The desensitisation occurs in horror gore movies, in violent coputer games and in mainstream TV series as well.

Coincidence?

Just about money?

Or deliberate.

Fakebook Tue 14-May-13 17:38:43

Claig, what DO you watch? I bet Casualty is a "no no" on a Saturday night at your house too.

claig Tue 14-May-13 17:43:39

From a New Yoork times article on the series 24

"Through this artistic sleight of hand, the show makes torture appear normal."

"Has "24" descended down a slippery slope in portraying acts of torture as normal and therefore justifiable? Is its audience, and the public more generally, also reworking the rules of war to the point where the most expedient response to terrorism is to resort to terror? In the world beyond the show, that debate remains heated. How it plays out on "24" may say a great deal about what sort of society we are in the process of becoming."

www.nytimes.com/2005/05/22/arts/television/22gree.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Did some progressive with a camera decide to commission this programme? Or is there more to it and its plots and messages?

is the normalisation of violenceand torture in films that are shown to the public just something that happened by chance because there was money to be made or is there more to it and the desensitisation and acclimatisation that it facilitates?

In the question that those silly conspiracy theorists often ask
Cui bono?

claig Tue 14-May-13 17:45:34

Yes, I don't watch Casualty either.
I watch good wholesome entertainment, comedies and the news and I reqd the Daily Mail. I try to steer clear of the crap that they throw in our path.

Fakebook Tue 14-May-13 17:54:47

Do you read the "side bar of shame" too? I bet you enjoy looking at those nice wholesome photos of Kim Kardashian.

claig Tue 14-May-13 17:59:35

I avoid the "side bar of shame" because it is full of crap about people I have no interest in. I read the political stories and major news stories which I find enlightening.

claig Tue 14-May-13 18:03:05

If after all that, I find the time, then I also make it a priority to read the classic commentaries by Melanie Phillips, Peter Hitchens and Richard Littlejohn. I fully understand why it was voted Newspaper of the Year 2012!

claig Tue 14-May-13 18:04:57

I also understand why, against some progressive objection, Peter Hitchens was once awarded the prestigious Orwell Prize - an honour beyond compare!

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Fakebook Tue 14-May-13 18:05:47

Interesting. How do you know that the same paper that publishes a lot of "crap" about people you have no interest in, also publishes factual and precise political stories with no added sensationalism?

claig Tue 14-May-13 18:07:55

grin
Of course there is sensationalism in many of its reports and i don't believe everything it says. But it is the best we have!

claig Tue 14-May-13 18:25:26

"However, I am concerned about some of the ways that art influences life."

It is the other way around. The progressive with a camera does not influence power. Power often influences and funds art to sell its message to the public. Power and finance use the progressive and the artist to desensitise the public.

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