to worry about people being told to cut out dairy

(395 Posts)
noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 11:51:48

I've noticed on here recently (or maybe I've only just noticed?) that if a mother posts about a fussy baby and she's breastfeeding, it is quite common for someone to suggest the mother try cutting dairy from her diet.

Now I'd have thought that cutting out dairy should be something done carefully and with dietary advice on how to compensate for it.

If you're cutting out dairy, that means you have to cut out nice things like cheese, milk in your cereal/tea, and if you're doing it thoroughly, things like chocolate that contain milk products. This sounds tedious and not very pleasant. It may even convince a mother to give up breastfeeding.

So I would have thought that cutting out dairy isn't something that should be taken lightly.

Also, babies are quite often fussy, and they quite often grow out of it without any intervention. A mother who has cut out dairy may attribute the improvement to her restricted diet and continue on it for months despite it being completely unnecessary and making no difference at all.

It's different to when people make other suggestions on here like 'it might be reflux' because people will need to see their GP before getting a prescription, and tips like propping up the cot are harmless even if it's not reflux. People can go ahead and cut out dairy without any health professional giving it the once-over.

So, AIBU to worry about this advice being bandied about? Or do people not attempt dietary restrictions on the say so of an Internet forum and I'm worrying about nothing?

CogitoErgoSometimes Mon 13-May-13 11:57:47

YANBU. Cutting out any major food-group whether it's meat, dairy or 'carbs' has to be done intelligently so that the nutrients lost are made up with other foods. I also agree with you about 'it might be reflux' after my own DS as a baby needed an operation to correct something that had a lot of the symptoms of reflux but which was much more serious. Internet diagnoses always risky.

narmada Mon 13-May-13 11:58:58

Well, some people live quite healthily and happily without any dairy at all - e.g., vegans.

Having had a baby that was allergic to dairy and having had the runaround from endless medical professionals who were not even aware of CMPI, I can reassure you that cutting out dairy is sometimes absolutely necessary and had I known about it, my DS mightn't have developed a feeding aversion or colitis.

It was another mother's suggestion that made me consider dairy allergy.

Of course if you are cutting out dairy ling-term you should get dietician input though. But 3 weeks' trual is neither here nor there in the nutritional stakes.

littlepeas Mon 13-May-13 12:01:19

Technically dairy is not a natural part of our diet though - cow's milk is for baby cows, not for humans - so as long as care is taken to ensure there is still calcium in the diet, it shouldn't be a problem. In fact, it is probably healthier for most people and it isn't surprising that many babies are sensitive to it. As it happens, goat's milk is much better for us as goats have one stomach, like us, as opposed to four, like a cow! I do think that women should be made aware of how important it is to have calcium in their diet though, in order to avoid osteoporosis.

narmada Mon 13-May-13 12:02:12

Hunans are not really designed to drink mammalian milks aside from that of their own species. Many ethnic groups have high rates of lactose intolerance in adulthood, and even in people who can happily consume dairy, too much is can result in occult blood loss from the intestinal tract.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 12:06:31

A fussy baby, YANBU.

But a baby who wakes 10 times a night, screams with abdominal pain, has green mucousy nappies that smell acidic, or dennie-morgan folds would do very well to try and elimenate dairy.

Cows milk is not the be all and end all. In manu ways it can be better for us not to be in our diets, there are plent of other places you can get calcium, calcium fortifie coconut or oat milk, soya milk, dark green veg.

Its not rocket science to get the source elsewhere and theres always the option of supplements.

shelley72 Mon 13-May-13 12:10:28

Hi I posted on a thread this morning about my experience of cutting out dairy whilst bf as I did have a v fussy baby and it was suggested by my hv.

I don't think anyone should cut out dairy on the say so of a random person on the internet. We did it under medical supervision, with the health visitor, gp and regular appointments to the dietician (for us both) and to the paediatric dept for dd. It was miserable (for me) - dd didn't know any different, but her being poorly wasn't pleasant either. She is now nearly 3 and is still cmp intolerant (and allergic to soya) and we are starting (again under hospital guidance) to test reintroduction of cmp. So far we are not past stage 1. We have both had to take supplements so giving up def isn't something that should be taken lightly.

I'm glad it was mentioned to me. It's something I hadn't considered, esp as none of us has any food / allergy issues.

EdgarAllanPond Mon 13-May-13 12:16:56

cows milk intolerance amongst Breastfed northern European babies isn't that common though -

if you aren't of European origin it is worth considering.

People of European descent are genetically adpated, generally speaking to tolerate dairy and cutting it out entirely may (ie we don't know if it might) actually increase the babies long-term intolerance.

cutting out any food group should not be done lightly - not least as things you may eat instead of dairy (eg soya) may also cause signs of intolerance.

Personally i object also to the 'woman-controlling' part of this kind of advice, ie

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 12:17:54

My OP was really prompted by my own experience. My DD had symptoms that pointed to a dairy intolerance (episodes of blood in her nappy). We were referred to a paediatrician, the appointment was a few weeks away. Everything I read on the Internet suggested that I should try eliminating dairy from my diet, however having thought through her symptoms carefully, I decided against, and decided that I would only do it if the doctor recommended it as it would mean quite big changes to my diet to do it properly.

By the time we saw the paediatrician, the episodes of blood (which had been going on for weeks) had stopped. He said that he deliberately made the appointment late as these things can resolve themselves with time. He also said that people think that dairy is a problem far more often than it actually is.

If I'd have cut dairy from my diet, as everything on the Internet was telling me to, I'd be miserable right now. I'd also be stuck with the diet as my DD's symptoms have resolved and I'd think that dairy had been the problem and my diet had solved it, where in fact it had got better by itself.

I'm so pleased I didn't do it.

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 12:23:01

I should say that I don't have a problem with people suggesting that a parent see a doctor about a possible CMPI. That's different to saying 'hey, have you tried eliminating dairy from your diet?'

EdgarAllanPond Mon 13-May-13 12:24:05

noble that's exactly it - the advice is also that it takes 6 weeks to work through (as my friend was told) in which time you would have a completely different baby.

the silly thing was her baby had had a really tough birth which would explain all his symptoms (ie he'd been intubated and spent a week in SCBU ) but because she wanted reassurance (understandably) they kept on trying other things.

missuswife Mon 13-May-13 12:27:28

Of course people should take medical advice on these things, but it's good to hear other people's experiences when you are up in the middle of the night panicking about your baby.

ThreeDudesOnABus Mon 13-May-13 12:28:03

Yanbu, people would rather take advice from the Internet and pop ju-ju juice than question bf.

shelley72 Mon 13-May-13 12:29:16

Forgot to add, I also had to be dairy free for a long time (til she gave up bf recently) and when I started to have it again I had the dodgy tummy. currently pg and dairy has been my main craving. Suppose my body needs it. Am hoping I don't have same issues with this one!

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 13-May-13 12:33:42

I don't think dairy is that good for people tbh, considering all the shite they pump into cows to up production.

Cow's milk is basically breast milk for baby cows. It is nutritionally evolved to cater for the needs of baby cows not humans.

Calcium can be found elsewhere with ease.

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 12:39:49

Whether calcium can be found elsewhere and whether you think cows milk is suitable for human consumption is completely irrelevant tbh.

Notanexcitingname Mon 13-May-13 12:40:44

I do feel compelled to respond to Edgar's post; you link cow's milk protein intolerance to ethnic group. I suspect you are liniking lactose intolerance in adults with CMPI in children. The former is prevalent in oriental populations, and much less so in european populations, and a different condition from CMPI.
I can't give you any figures for CMPI but I can assure you it does exist, and appears to be far more common than one might think. Several years ago these would have been fussy, difficult babies, now we recognise the cause and can put the out of their discomfort.
My DS2 is CMPI (diagnosed by a paediatric allergy consultant, FWIW), and on hearing his symptoms and diagnosis, my grandfather retrospectively thinks my aunt had the same. But in 1950, one just suffered.

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 13-May-13 12:41:44

What's the point of starting the thread if you don't want different views?

MNetters are freakin' odd lately. Very tetchy.

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 12:41:54

I think this sort of thing undermines breastfeeding too. Problems with your baby? Problems with your milk.

5318008 Mon 13-May-13 12:43:54

oh WOW I had never heard of Dennie_morgan folds before, omg, THANK YOU

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 12:44:19

Its very relevant. Its exactly relevant. You said in your OP it should be done with dietary advice on how to compensate for it.

If thats not your worry, then what exactly is your concern about mothers stopping dairy to see if it helps their baby?

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 12:45:38

But your view on the consumption of cows milk is irrelevant as to whether women should be advised to try eliminating it from their diet to cure a fussy baby.

And eliminating it from your diet really isn't a simple as switching to coconut milk or whatever.

Likeaninjanow Mon 13-May-13 12:46:12

I told myself to give up dairy, with no medical advice. I had a very poorly baby, and just had an 'inkling' it was caused by dairy. After a couple of days there was an improvement. After a few weeks he was a normal baby. It was amazing.

When I accidentally gave him something containing cows milk at 6 months, he went into full anaphylaxis.

We've been pretty much left to get on with it ourselves & he's a healthy boy. No growth issues for sure. I think, personally, dairy is overrated. A healthy, balanced diet is possible without it.

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 12:48:23

"Whether calcium can be found elsewhere and whether you think cows milk is fit for human consumption is irrelevant."

Like I said, its totally relevant to what you said in your OP. Otherwise what is your point if that is no longer it?

As for cows milk not being great for human consumption, its not am opinion, its a fact.

OnTheNingNangNong Mon 13-May-13 12:48:36

Dairy isn't important in our diet, as long as you can compensate well (which is easy) there's no problems.

Cows milk is nice, but its not the be all and end all.

There's lots of babies on formula who have varying degrees of intolerance to cows milk. Not just bfers (like myself).

JenaiMorris Mon 13-May-13 12:48:47

Genuine question here: How does dairy get into breast milk?

mrsjay Mon 13-May-13 12:49:10

I know somebody who is cutting out stuff I do worry about her she seems to be doing it to the extreme and she is breastfeeding I think her Dr said to do it but it looks like from her updates on fb that she isn't eating very much her baby is older and eating though

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 12:50:19

What is my concern? That women are being told to restrict their diet to 'see if it helps' when
a) that's quite a big ask and
b) isn't often the cause of the problem which may resolve with time anyway, leaving a woman on an unnecessary restricted diet for no good reason and
c) should probably be at least run past a health professional.

If I had eliminated dairy from my diet before seeing the paediatrician who had deliberately left a long gap before the appointment to see if time would heal the problem, neither he nor I would be any the wiser as to whether the problem was dairy, or had simply gone away.

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 12:50:43

OP do you know tha drinking cows milk and inhibit iron absorbtion? Most toddlers who prefer a lovely bottle of milk rather than food (common) are likely to be anaemic.

Did you know that there is pus in most regular bottles of milk in the supermarkets? Do you know thay its a great cause of mucus build up in ourselves?

mrsjay Mon 13-May-13 12:51:49

<wibble> @mucus build up

Yabu. Why would you not cut out one thing for a measly few weeks to save pumping your baby full of medicines for colic and reflux. Calcium can easily be made up through vegetables pulses beans and about fifty different milk substitutes that are available. If it doesn't work out then fine but its widths shot when it can make such a difference.ilk is for cows. It's the biggest allergen in the world many many adults and children all over the world struggle to digest the milk. Six weeks dairy free verses months of medication and sleepless nights. No brainer IMO.

Obviously reflux isn't caused by milk but the symptoms are very similar in some cases.

LadyInDisguise Mon 13-May-13 12:54:50

noble, I am not sure why Whether calcium can be found elsewhere and whether you think cows milk is suitable for human consumption is completely irrelevant tbh and view on the consumption of cows milk is irrelevant.

Because tbh this is the whole point. If you can get all the nutrition you need from other sources than dairy, why is it an issue to stop have dairy?
Some people will have very very little dairy in their diet anyway, because of the way they eat. And they are still healthy. So why is it such a bad thing?

I also don't buy into the whole 'you should only do that under your GP supervision' as if
1- people weren't able to decide by themselves what to do to replace their source of calcium.
2- their GP would actually hold their hands to stop using dairy. My experience is that, having being referred to a * dietician* for that, well I was very much left to my own devices. The best I got was a lost of foods that also have calcium in it. Apart from that. Nothing.

So I would really appreciate you explaining in more details why you think it is dangerous to stop/reduce dairy intake. And why this would be more dangerous than, say, starting one the 5:2 diet, low carbs diet etc etc

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 12:56:07

noblegiraffe giving birth to a baby drug free is a 'big ask' but some mums feel it can benefit the baby, lots of things in motherhood are a big ask, but we do it.

No it may not be the cause of the problem but when you watch your baby screaming and rolling in pain for days, weeks and months on end then you want to do anything to help.

And as for C, well - please, go into MN - allergy forum and see which one of those mums had a GP with any knowledge on allergies because I am yet to find one. GPs ate notoriously uneducated when it comes to allergies and intolerances, so to find one who'd suggest such a thing off their own back is very, very, very rarely going to happen,

Ive heard of children going into anaphylactic shock after milk, and still the GP questioned it, people pay hundreds to go private to prove it (always proved - obviously) if you dont believe me, the allergy forum is easy to find, I will link it if you cant find it.

YoniBottsBumgina Mon 13-May-13 12:56:46

My friend had a horrendously unsettled baby and tried everything. It was suggested to her in the early days to try cutting out dairy and she waved it away thinking everyone on the internet was "obsessed with dairy".

It was only much later when she started weaning that she started to notice a pattern and rethought, deciding to give the elimination diet a go. Massive change in baby. Tests were run and it was then discovered that he had multiple intolerances, but she really had to fight to get this diagnosed and actually the fact she'd done this diet did help her case.

Once it was diagnosed she was offered special formula on prescription too, so it's not woman-controlling at all tbh - there are medical alternatives if tou don't want to change your dirt.

fascicle Mon 13-May-13 12:56:52

noblegiraffe I think you're projecting your own thoughts onto others (e.g. cutting out dairy = big dietary change; missing out on nice things). You don't talk about concern over particular nutrients.

Dairy is a made-up food group (unlike e.g. protein) so it's quite easy to survive without it and get the nutrients elsewhere. Many people think it's essential for bones due to calcium content, but really bone health is about so much more than calcium intake.

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 12:57:08

wheresmycaffiendrip actually, reflux is often caused by an undiagnosed case of milk allergy or intolerance, its a common symptom in fact. Usually the first symptom.

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 12:57:13

DUCK suggesting that people give up cows milk (which is different to eliminating dairy from your diet, btw) because it's full of pus is fine, whatever floats your boat.
That's a completely different argument to 'your baby's fussy? Try eliminating dairy'.

And my baby wasn't just fussy, she had blood in her stools. A proper objective worrying symptom that you could point to and say 'that's a sign of CMPI'. And yet even then cutting dairy from my diet wouldn't have helped, because it was something else.

EdgarAllanPond Mon 13-May-13 12:58:10

my friend also was talking to a Paediatric consulatant, frankly, his diagnosis was symptom-based entirely and did not (and could not) relate to testing or any objective framework.

the symptoms were entirely those of a baby who had been tube fed (pain when feeding, short duration of feeds) and had had even worse feeding advice (HV recommended timed 3-hourly feeds...nasty stress rash ensued and baby fed even less!)

I am referring to a study of Swedish BF mothers whose babies had a 1.9 % incidence of cows milk protein intolerance. that is why i say it is uncommon in BF babies of Northern European descent.


LadyInDisguise Mon 13-May-13 12:58:34

But if the woman is OK to do that, even if in your own point of view this is a big uptake, why should be stopped from doing that?

Yes you could wait and have a very unhappy baby for a few months and do nothing.
You might be able to cope with it and be happy to just hope it will pass. I couldn't do that. For all the time, ds wasn't unhappy I tried all the things that could have caused it. Process of elimination. (And found that he was allergic to cow's milk)
I would have being very unhappy if I hadn't tried all I could to help him and sit there 'just hoping it would pass'

missuswife Mon 13-May-13 12:58:41

I was told by my allergist that the CMP gets through the Brest milk, not dairy per se. He said to cut it out, as well as peanuts and citrus, and iwhen dd's excema cleared up to then re-intro each thing one at a time and see if she reacted. There was an overnight improvement in her skin. I would definitely agree to always consult a professional.

LadyInDisguise Mon 13-May-13 12:59:44

noble it's not because your baby's fussiness wasn't linked to dairy that it is the case for all babies...

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 13:01:53

Eh? Im talking about breast feeding mothers eliminating cows milk. Just like you are.

I was just pointing out that milk isnt the wonderful thing you seem to think it is.

EdgarAllanPond Mon 13-May-13 13:01:56

going totally dairy free could increase your childs chance of a longer term intolerance. (interesting to see results of EAT study)

it could mean you drink things like soya milk that they are may equally be intolerant to.

it is very difficult - think about all those cups of tea !

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 13:02:08

lady the official advice is to see your GP before starting a low carb/fasting diet or whatever anyway, so I don't see any difference there.

People seem to be under the illusion that eliminating dairy is simply milk and cheese. If you're doing it properly, milk/milk protein is in so many different foodstuffs that it really isn't as easy as you make out.

ImpYCelyn Mon 13-May-13 13:03:09

I also don't think it would undermine breastfeeding. DS1 has CMPI and I was offered the alternative to giving up dairy - hypoallergenic formula. Believe me, no chocolate, cake, cheese, tea, pizza etc was significantly easier to live with than trying to get my baby to drink the formula. It's vile stuff (nb - specifically talking about the stuff they give CMPI babies here, the normal formula is fine). If I'd literally had no other alternative I would have done whatever was necessary to give it to him, but as I could BF it was much easier to restrict my diet.

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 13:04:11

Edgar thats intolerance, but what about those of us who have babies with CMPA? Totally different kettle of fish, exactly the same symptoms if breast feeding mum ingests milk.....

As far as I know CMP allergy is more common that CMPintolerance

My gp gave a newborn dd laxatives. All I wanted was a pepti milk. I knew it was the milk causing the bloating and grunting. It was awful. I don't understand why a dietary change is avoided in favour of medications. Who would give drugs to a baby with all the risks that entails without exploring as to whether simply giving up milk would help. Obviously if baby needs meds they should be given it. But in some cases it could so easily be avoided and surely that's better??

loofet Mon 13-May-13 13:07:16

As others have pointed out dairy isn't a natural part of the human diet and so really there is no such thing as lactose intolerant, we all are really. It's milk for baby cows, not humans. Also we are the only mammal to have milk after infancy and definitely the only mammal to have another animals milk... Its unnatural and weird.

There are plenty alternatives so you don't miss out on 'nice' things at all. Soy, hemp, coconut, rice, oat, almond and hazelnut milks for your cereal and tea, dairy free spread and dairy free chocolate or just dark chocolate.. So ya know, the mum won't die without dairy... Neither will the baby.

Calcium is in the alternate milks, spread, bread, cereals, fruit&veg. I say this as a breastfeeding vegan, perfectly healthy mum and babies smile

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 13:07:22

noble you cannot compare low carbing or low calories diets to eliminating milk. If you eliminate milk you get calcium from different sources, low carbing and low calories is dropping something entirely.

I agree ducks

People rely far to heavily on cows milk. It's not this wonder drink its made out to be. It causes more problems than people think.

EglantinePrice Mon 13-May-13 13:09:05


I'm not at all worried about grown women deciding to cut dairy out of their diet. In fact I bet a lot of people would benefit from this change to their diet.

It may even help their babies fussiness and therefore prolong breast feeding.

Of course if they did this because their baby was passing blood, I'd be worried. But I haven't heard of this happening.

As for consulting a professional... IME GP's don't know a great deal about bf. I think mine would glaze over if I went and discussed this with her. Of course I wouldn't cos I can't imagine what I would expect her to say to me. Waiting for an appointment for a specialist referral could take ages.

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 13-May-13 13:10:01

It really is that easy, if you eat very cleanly. Last time I checked no-one was spiking my chicken breasts or green veg with milk proteins. It might be more difficult if you are used to a diet consisting mainly of processed foods, but that's not really healthy either is it?

Lots of people chose to cut out/cut down on dairy for many reasons.

I have milk, not often, generally only when I've run out of almond milk and don't have time to get to Holland and Barrats for more. I'd be happy enough if it disappeared from our shelves tomorrow, from a welfare POV.

If missing out on dairy is not for you, fair enough, but why question those who are happy to get their nutrients from other sources?

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 13:10:53

I have no problem with a doctor suggesting that a mother eliminate dairy. A doctor who has a full medical history and the baby in front of him is in a very different position to someone on the internet suggesting that the mother give it a go.

PourquoiPas Mon 13-May-13 13:11:14


Yes, ideally any major changes to a diet should be done under medical supervision with the help of a dietician. Unfortunately, in my experience the NHS doesn't really give a crap have the resources to do this, so you are just left to yourself to try different things.

My DD had terrible reflux from 3/4 weeks (in retrospect when I started consuming a lot more cows milk products) and it took me 5 months to 'win' a referral to the paediatrician. She is 10 months old and we are still waiting for the bloody appointment.

We had 4 months of misery while I was fobbed off by everyone, and are weaning her with absolutely no help on how to ensure she gets enough calcium/fat. But apparently as she is gaining weight now we are dairy free its not a priority case. I'm pretty sure it's the cows milk as once we started weaning she got awful excema/hives if some touched the skin but what the hell do I know!

So the reason why people say to give it a go is because the NHS won't help.

JenaiMorris Mon 13-May-13 13:11:31

OK, so it's cows milk protein that gets into breast milk.

It surprises me really that it would - I'm not denying that it does (I am woefully ignorant when it comes to human biology) but yes, it suprises me.

I suppose some drugs make their way into BM confused

Interesting stuff though.

Can anyone recommend an unbiased explanation of how BM is produced?

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 13:18:20

Of course if they did this because their baby was passing blood, I'd be worried. But I haven't heard of this happening.

I'm guessing you've never searched 'blood in nappy'

I just did a quick search on MN. How about this thread

The baby had been seen by A&E who said it was probably a tear and still people were giving advice to just cut out dairy.

noble drs know nothing about allergies intolerances etc.their answer to any fussy unhappy baby is colic or reflux and even then they miss reflux a hell of alot. If many of us listened to the drs and didn't seek advice from
Mums who had been there then there would be many more of us with horrendously unhappy children stuck on an array of medications they don't actually need.

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 13:22:53

cleanin I am not questioning those who are happy to get calcium from other sources, I am questioning those who suggest to mothers that the problem with their baby is their diet and they should simply eliminate dairy from their diet to 'see if it helps'.

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 13:26:25

noblegiraffe like I said, GP's are notoriously uninformed abiut allergies and intolerances,

Like I said, just take a peak in the allergy forum. Here you go, I will limk it for you to make it easier.
please see how it really is in here OP

Start a simple thread asking hwo supportive or suggesting their GP's were of allergies or intolerances. Ask how many positively poo pooed their suggestions, ignored it, laughed them them away, and who did actually end up being diagnosed eventually/elsewhere/privately.

Before you make the assumption that a GP is educated in this area, see dor yourself that they are absolutely NOT.

You have no idea.

noble people post on here when they are desperate. When they feel drs aren't listening , and they feel there is a problem. They post because their babies are distressed nothing is helping and they haven't slept in months. They want help, and many are willing to try anything and everything to help their babies and to continue breast feeding.

Just what would you suggest we say to these mums when we have been through similar things and shock horror managed to pinpoint milk as the problem. Would you rather we lie? Would you rather we didn't offer the advice that helped us soooo much. ?

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 13:32:34

Good question caffeinedrip

KobayashiMaru Mon 13-May-13 13:37:56

I was told on here to cut dairy out as my baby might be lactose intolerants. Hmm, ok, why don't I stop eating dairy so the tiny bit of lactose won't get into my breastmilk which is much more full of lactose ?

He was severely lactose intolerant though, and needs a special diet.

DorisIsWaiting Mon 13-May-13 13:37:57

Op you seem to think that giving up is a massive issue, but for many of us it isn't.

Yes dairy is in a huge amount of products ( a significant number of which it really doesn't need to be in bread being just one example). Maybe a little more cooking happens at home than the ready made variety (no bad thing and is much healthier).

I was willing to try anything to make my baby happier within 24hrs my dd was a changed child, we have tried reintroducing at various points but she still struggles and with soya too. It helped that dh is also dairy free (adult onset although wth reflection his mother thinks he was probably intolerant as a child too).

I am also veggie which does make things a little more challenging but not impossible.

Ultimately I think you want justification that you did the right thing. Just because it was all too difficult for you.

UptheAnkhwithoutapaddle Mon 13-May-13 13:43:17

Yes it's much better to be on high doses of ranitidine and domperidone for reflux at the age of 2 months old on the doctors advice than to cut out dairy to see if your baby can actually sleep for more than 30 mins at a time.


noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 13:43:56

caffeine, in that situation, of months of not sleeping etc, then saying 'hey, have you considered a CMPI?' is reasonable. (That's not the same as suggesting you eliminate dairy, btw, it's suggesting a closer look at the symptoms, against the symptoms of a CMPI).

But suggesting dairy elimination isn't only given in that situation. It's given as a solution to random baby problems, including the one I linked to where the symptoms suggested something else entirely.

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 13:47:09

Doris it doesn't matter if giving up dairy wouldn't be a problem for you. People suggest it to women to 'give it a go' with no idea of how big a challenge that would be for them.

I would think there are more people that shop at ASDA rather than Holland and Barrett as a matter of course.

LadyInDisguise Mon 13-May-13 13:47:18

I am questioning those who suggest to mothers that the problem with their baby is their diet and they should simply eliminate dairy from their diet to 'see if it helps'.

But this is the point of MN isn't it? That people are telling their stories, share what has worked for them. So that other can also have a look at these possibilities.

You seem to think that anything that is slightly related to health should only be under the umbrella of a GP. This isn't the case. I think that people need to take responsibility for their health and that starts by not expecting everybody else to solve the problem with them.

UptheAnkhwithoutapaddle Mon 13-May-13 13:47:39

Noble giraffe, you are displaying an amount of ignorance about similarities in the symptoms between reflux and CMPI

And too much faith in the knowledge of GPs - this is backed up by the opinion of DD's paediatrician btw..

LadyInDisguise Mon 13-May-13 13:49:02

But the people who would find it a challenge to cut out dairy just won't do it...

DorisIsWaiting Mon 13-May-13 13:49:21

Dairy elmination is usually 1 option of many suggested.

If nothing changes then that a couple of weeks withput dairy for the mother (no real hardship). If it works then most people carry on for a couple of weeks to make sure then try reintroducing it if the symptoms return then they're pretty sure so they speak to the healthcare team.

All in all most women would speak to their GP's with a month or so (not a massively long time woithout dairy!)

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 13:51:46

You want to hear something funny noble?

The thing you linked to did not prove your point. Im fact, it probably proved ours.

In your link, the person took her baby to A and E and they said it was probably a tear in their bottom (now remember us saying HCP's are notoriously uneducated about CMPA CMPI and their symptoms?) I searched that OP's name and her other posts are about stomach cramps, a well known relfux drug, her baby suffering with reflux.

With all that, all those symptoms and blood in the nappy it was very likely to be CMPI or CMPA.

I just hope that mother did try eliminating milk/changing the babys milk.

DorisIsWaiting Mon 13-May-13 13:52:24

I don't shop in holland and Barratt we get all we need from tesco and Lidl (and DD1 is Dairy and soya intolerant). It really is not THAT difficult (yes you need to read labels for a while)

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 13:54:38

Ultimately I think you want justification that you did the right thing. Just because it was all too difficult for you.

That's not right at all, actually.

No it's not always a given. But surely trying something that has no side effects and is relatively easy to do and will give u an answer pretty damn quick is a better call than waiting and waiting on drs to refer etc. in that time damage increases.

You talk as if people are stupid. That they can't tell a one off event from an ongoing set of symptoms.

I think the previous posters were right. To you it was a big deal and one you weren't prepared to try. And you want the justification for not being prepared to try anything. Lucky for you ur Dc was ok.

And of course you never ever hear of drs being wrong hmm

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 13:57:13

In fact noble the person you linked to went on to make many posts in the allergy forum.

She didnt post past 10 weeks of age so we'll never know if she got to the bottom of it, but as I am unfortunately experienced in this her babys symptoms spoke volumes in CMPA direction.

Ladyflip Mon 13-May-13 13:59:58

Dooin, exactly what "shite" do you think we "pump into cows to up production"?
Ohfor Duckssake Really? Pus in milk? There is no more pus in cow's milk than in human milk.

You are both peddling myths about dairy farming of which you clearly have no knowledge.

I have no issue at all with whether you have a pint of gold top every day or spend your life dairy free. I also completely understand that there are many people who are intolerant to dairy.

This does not mean that you can use the internet to lie about milk and its production or peddle half baked bullshit about pus or "shite".

So stop it.

awkwardsis Mon 13-May-13 14:03:00

I for one am thankful that someone suggested I cut out dairy. Ds was just a furious baby, throwing up after most feeds. Hvs were useless. Only a chance meeting with a breast feeding consultant (who my mutual friend knew from here originally) led me to cut out cmp. A year later and I'm still very happily breast feeding.

EdgarAllanPond Mon 13-May-13 14:03:01

the problem with cutting out dairy as advice is

we don't know how babies become tolerant/intolerant to things - not completely

so cutting out dairy may worsen an intolerance they would otherwise have got over

or simply do nothing

or it might be the right answer

or the symptoms may not be an intolerance issue.

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 14:03:01

Can I ask how you are so sure about that lady?

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 14:05:06

DUCK you are missing the point that the people on that thread saying 'cut out dairy' were on a thread about blood in the nappy. It probably was a tear which would resolve in time (let's face it, Gaviscon is known for causing constipation and the mother talks about straining). Cut out dairy is a rather flippant response to that thread.

Ladyflip Mon 13-May-13 14:05:26

Tell me how you're so sure its there OH

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 14:07:57

Ive read about it, not just online either.

Id love to be proven wrong though, I drank milk for years and expect I will again when I stop breast feeding, so Id love to see how its not true...

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 14:08:16

Caffeine you say cutting out dairy will give you an answer pretty damn quick but from what I've read it can take weeks to leave your system. That's not quick when weeks are a large proportion of a baby's life up to that point. Things can change very quickly. Baby happier after weeks of giving up dairy. Is that a quick answer suggesting dairy is the problem or is that simply an older baby being more settled?

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 14:09:23


Everyone - YABU

OP - No Im not.


OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 14:10:55

Its not quick but its blatant.

A mother stops milk for 2 weeks. Baby improves.

Mother drinks milk again, baby does or doesnt get ill again.

Mother has her answer.

Is it really that much of a big deal?

No. Its not.

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 14:11:17

awkward out of interest, how do you know that cutting out dairy solved the problem and it didn't just resolve of its own accord?

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 14:12:30

OH interesting that you see this thread as everyone saying IABU, I'm clearly reading a different thread.

awkwardsis Mon 13-May-13 14:16:15

I know because every now and then I slip up (thank you, fudge obsession blush) and the results in ds are easy and immediate to see. He breaks out in enormous hives. We're under the care of a dietician now, it was a consultant but he said I was doing brilliantly so discharged us. You might think people throw around the possibility of a intolerance around too readily, but I for one am glad it was suggested to me. Otherwise I'd have carried in causing ds pain, and probably even stopped feeding him. As it is, we're doing fine. A dairy free diet is not all that restrictive. I also lost heaps of weight a few years ago cutting out carbs so I am clearly highly suggestible to 'stupid' dietary advice wink

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 14:16:19

Far enough 90%

Your point has no substance though, people have shown that.

Its not a hassle for a mum with a very unhappy baby and could be the answer to their woes.

The question is not 'should she be told to try eliminating milk' if it continues for weeks, the question should be 'why isnt that mother being told to try eliminating milk'.

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 14:18:39

awkward good to hear a positive story. Its heart breaking to hear mothers and babies suffer for months and months on end because they dont know that milk could be the issue. Btw, you know that your baby has a milk allergy, rather than intolerance?

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 13-May-13 14:18:48

They are routinely given growth hormones to increase the size to un-natural proportions and increase milk production the increase in production can cause mastitis (which yes, causes pus, why do you think milk has to be pasteurized before it is safe to drink?) the mastitis is then treat with anti-biotics which also passes through into the milk to be drank by us later.

Not enough research has been done to prove whether it is safe/unsafe for us to be drinking anti-biotics and growth hormones or not, but why risk it when there are plenty of other natural sources of nutrients?

That depends entirely on how you feed your baby. It's instant answer with formula and yes it takes longer with EBF But the sand goes for the medication though doesn't it, appears to work a few weeks later but who knows of it truely can take the credit. You would keep up the gaviscon though wouldn't u? If people were suggesting dairy free then there must have been enough other info in the thread to warrant saying that. Ultimately it's a better way to treat your baby than pumping it full of drugs. Perhaps then they wouldn't end up in A&e with suspected anal tear in the first place. And blood in stools can be down to intestinal bleeding caused by milk intolerance. It's not unhealthy to live dairy free milk is meant for cows not us. I really don't know why it bothers you so much that its suggested? Things must be pretty bad if people go that far in the first place so y not give it a chance?

awkwardsis Mon 13-May-13 14:24:25

OH yes I am far too lax with the terminology, I've used intolerance for so long, but the consultant and dietician do agree its an allergy because of how his reaction shows itself. I think the problem is that when you hear about cutting dairy, it's enormously daunting. In top of having to deal with an already unsettled baby and the brain fog that comes with that, you have to learn to heck ingredients, be careful not to let anything slip through. Ime, the idea was far worse than the reality. Bourbons are milk free people!

Ladyflip Mon 13-May-13 14:24:59

Ok, I'm sure its not. Because pus is produced when a cow has mastitis. And milk from cows with mastitis does not go into the bulk tank, so doesn't enter the food chain.

The herdsman knows it doesn't go into the bulk tank because he checks the cow before he puts the units onto the teats. If the cow does have mastitis, the cow is still milked and the milk goes into a separate bucket. The cow is marked (tape around tail) and given antibiotics (just like a mum with mastitis) so that everyone knows the milk from that cow doesn't go into the bulk tank. And whilst I'm at it, the antibiotics don't go in either because there is a withdrawal period printed on the box of antibiotics to say how many days after you have finished treating the cow you have to keep the milk from the bulk tank.

So, there is no pus in milk.

We also don't pump them full of hormones either, in case Dooin was thinking of coming back and suggesting it. THey were banned by the EU years ago.

Farmers are incredibly dedicated to their job and animals and it makes me angry when I see these lazy comments.

Yes, I may confess I have a vested interest in that I'm a dairy farmer's wife. And I'm sorry if I over reacted blush

EdgarAllanPond Mon 13-May-13 14:26:07

Everyone does not agree ducks.

GirlOutNumbered Mon 13-May-13 14:26:30

I gave up dairy for both of mine. For both there was an net ant improvement and an n start reaction when reintroducing dairy.
I've been dairy free for 13 months with DS1 and so far 8 months with DS2.
It's no big deal and you can get calcium from plenty of other places. I noticed that I am less 'mucousy' now I am dairy free and actually feel much better.

I am actually gong to continue when I stop brestfeeeding. There is no evidence to suggest I should be drinking cows milk. Or my children.

Ladyflip Mon 13-May-13 14:26:54

Oh, look at that. Whilst typing that, Dooin has come on and suggested exactly what I thought she would. The FDA is in America people.

Check your facts.

JenaiMorris Mon 13-May-13 14:27:52

That link is to a US site. The situation is quite different I believe here (and in the EU possibly).

Ladyflip Mon 13-May-13 14:28:48

Thanks Jenai

GirlOutNumbered Mon 13-May-13 14:29:04

Read 'instant' for both bad typos above!

If it wasn't for you then fine. There r others on this thread who feel the same. But there is no way that I would hold back the secret that turned my bloated windy grunting miserable non sleeping baby into a happy healthy child who eats well sleeps well and has the most amazing glossy hair and soft skin.

I don't give a stuff if it annoys you, people aren't stupid, they will make the right decision for them as you did. Only difference is they tend to be grateful that people take the time to reply and pass in their experiences. They don't solve the problem and bitch that the rest if us were wrong. It's not about being right. It's about providing information so people can either research on or make a decision.

JenaiMorris Mon 13-May-13 14:34:21

You're welcome, Lady.

Beyond having a few dairy farmer friends, I have no vested interest. It just irritates me to see them misrepresented.

LadyInDisguise Mon 13-May-13 14:38:28

noble what is it that you want to say?
Is it that, on that particular thread, you don't think giving up dairy was the right answer?
Is it that you don't think giving up dairy will ever make a difference and that, if anyone sees a difference when doing so it's just coincidence?
Is it the fact that people can decide themselves to make a change in their diet, one that you think is very hard to do, without checking with their GP?
Or do you think it's not right that people 'try' different approaches to their parenting, incl the way they feed their baby?

I personally have lots of reasons as to why I think giving up dairy IS a good idea.
Some of which have been told in this thread, others are coming from my own experience.
I also can completely see why someone would try anything and everything to help a crying/upset baby. I did. And truth to be told, stopping dairy isn't the worse thing that a new mum could do on a health pov (both for herself and for her baby).

I genuinely don't understand why this is such a big issue for you.

GirlOutNumbered Mon 13-May-13 14:41:52

She can't believe that it was a coincidence that babies get better!

You would not believe the difference in mine!

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 14:43:59

The difference in mine was the difference between life and death. Quite literally.

Pancakeflipper Mon 13-May-13 14:47:10

I wish someone had suggested to me it might a dairy intolerance for my DS2.
Instead he was a very ill baby for 18months and it had a huge effect on our family with his big brother missing out of lots of fun. I missed out on a happy baby, he was a cross monster.

I wouldn't do any elimination lightly ( its very tricky at first) but it would have been good to go through possible reasons.

LadyInDisguise Mon 13-May-13 15:03:24

What was worse for me is that I had all the HCP telling me I was making a fuss for nothing, that ds was fine.
That there was no relation between his eczema and dairy and that I could try elimination diet but it would never be conclusive.

And then one day I came across this idea of cutting out dairy.

So i tried and it was like day and night. The child who was unhappy was smiling. The one who didn't want a bfing did. And the eczema eased off.
but it had nothing to do with cutting out dairy hmm.

That is until I went to see the eczema nurse who gave an NHS leaflet saying that dairy passing through breast milk can have that sort of effect.

Tbh, if people were saying 'just cut out dairy and don't bother with your GP', I could see the OP's point.
But I am at loss as to why you shouldn't see your GP and also try other things to ease the discomfort for the baby at the same time. After all, if it works, you will soon know (as if you reintroduce dairy by mistake, your child will get worse ).

GirlOutNumbered Mon 13-May-13 15:42:48

I think when we are all struggling, it's fantastic for other mums to throw out advice.
I was 'lucky' with DS1 he presented quite bad symptoms so he went straight to a&e and a paediatrician. My doctor had never heard if CMPI.
when DS2 started to get unwell, I had already been through it once so I knew what to do. I just asked to be referred straight to the dietician, again as Dr was clueless.
If this hadn't have happened though, I would have been so pleased to try it from advice and see it making a difference.

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 15:57:53

See noble? These people weren't heard by doctors, or doctors hadn't even heard of CMPI or CMPA.

So taking into consideration that a GP is extremely unlikely to suggest eliminating milk, don't you think its better a mother try it off her own back than not at all and continue to have a baby who suffers, sometimes horrendously?

EglantinePrice Mon 13-May-13 16:00:56

The thread you linked to was littered with people suggesting, seeking professional advice including going to A&E. The OP had spoken to the HV, OOH Dr and been to A&E. They'd all reassured her and sent her away. So if people want to suggest dairy free as a possibility I really think that's a good idea.

As someone else said, I'd be surprised if they kept it a secret.

You seem to have a huge confidence in GP's/HV. I think this is a little misplaced. With the best will in the world they don't know everything.

But ducks the suffering can be justified cos it might not be the milk and they might well grow out of it. We can't have dairy free appearing to be the solution when it isn't. hmm

TenaciousOne Mon 13-May-13 16:07:01

I think YABU. DS reacts to dairy, we tried eliminating it from my diet(BF) and he was a much happier baby. Wider family gets involved and they decide it's not dairy. I have dairy unwittingly (told there was no milk in it at all, and they had used the 'special' milk) and we have the old baby/toddler back who won't sleep, awful painful poohs, has to be propped up to sleep etc...

Even when they see first hand what diary does to him, they still insist dairy is not the issue. I have a friend who will give DS her ice cream and then when he gets upset hands him back. She insists it can't be a dairy thing because he'll happily eat it and her other friend won't eat dairy due to his allergy. Err her friend is an adult and understands if I eat A, I'm not very well; DS on the other hand was barely 1 so had no understanding of eating X will result in pain.

If women don't want to try cutting out dairy that is their choice however, in my experience cutting out dairy has solved issues and I'm glad I tried it.

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 16:07:40

In just the last two weeks I have seen 'cut out dairy' given as a suggestion to a 3 month old who is fussy in the evenings, and as a suggestion for a case of bad nappy rash.

These are not the desperate parents who have been battling for months with a seriously unhappy baby that you think are being advised at long last the solution to all their troubles.

TenaciousOne Mon 13-May-13 16:10:57

Also, my GP insisted babies don't suffer from lactose intolerance when we went to see him about DS. When I spoke to him I didn't mention lactose, I simply said he seemed to react to dairy. The consultant saw us for less than five minutes in which he said reintroduce every 6 months. HV told us to try cry it out in an attempt to get him to sleep through the night, my issue wasn't the wakes ups but the screaming in the night unless he was propped up almost sitting.

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 16:12:10

I'm not saying that CMPI is never an issue and that cutting out dairy is never the solution, but that it seems to be bandied about far too freely these days and that far too many women seem to be putting themselves on a restricted diet unnecessarily.

And as Edgar pointed out, restricted diets may even cause intolerances later on.

TenaciousOne Mon 13-May-13 16:19:48

nobie we didn't start cutting out dairy until DS was roughly 3 months old. We thought the wanting to be curled up on us day and night was him just being a newborn (which it probably was a mixture of both) it took that long to notice if I had a large intake of dairy he was projectile vomit everywhere, the first time at 2 weeks old we didn't so much as ignore but worried about him being sick not the cause. 2 weeks later when he did it again (in my mouth) the big thing that stuck out was the milk chocolate bar which I hadn't had in ages (nearly exactly 2 weeks previously). It took a couple more incidents to link them. I then cut out all uncooked dairy, no more projectile vomiting but he was still not sleeping. Cutting out all dairy and he slept a lot better and he had nicer nappies, no screaming poohs that were mucous filled.

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 16:21:33

And I will KEEP banding it about. To catch the few that have suffered, and it is milk.

This weekend I had an email of a lady from MN who posted in chat a few weeks ago about her baby who never slept and never settled and she was going insane with lack of sleep.

I instantly though CMPI or CMPA but didnt jump to it. I asked her a few questions and it transpired her baby had the typical green nappies, sometimes bloody, dennie-morgan folds etc etc, and all the HCP's hadnt helped at all.

I PM'd her and said it sounded like CMPA, I explained why, told her about this and that.

Her reply yesterday was amazing, she said she'd cut out dairy for 2 weeks and the difference was incredible. She had a happy, sleeping baby. She used the actual words "You've changed my life."

Im just very very glad I got to help her when the so called proffesionals couldnt, now long would it have continued for? Weeks? Months? A year?

Its extremely detrimental to the gut to continue to be fed an allergen. I know a child with horrific problems because of it, regularly being fed directly into his stomach.

I will forever and a day, continue to tell mums to consider eliminating milk if I thought it would help.

curryeater Mon 13-May-13 16:21:49

YANBU. Especially because women are socialised to respond to all pressures and stresses by "being more perfect" in ways that usually mean eating less, or eating a smaller variety of foods, usually specifically excluding fats or animal products. But most of the time the problems in that woman's life, or her children's lives, will not be remotely ameliorated by her taking some ascetic stance of self-denial. But we are so quick to jump to it, we "hear" this message so much more clearly than others. (Even weight loss - where necessary - is not assisted by the standard ascetic advice to cut out, or almost cut out, fat)

BUT mainstream medical nutritional advice is often a bit rubbish. A mother of a child who is having difficulties cannot be blamed for being willing to try anything, on anyone's suggestion, as anything to do with diet is so poorly understood and / or represented by GPs.

TenaciousOne Mon 13-May-13 16:23:50

No one is saying stick to a restricted diet though. They are saying try it and seek medical advice. Normally medical advice will indicate to reintroduce every so many months, previously I had to reintroduce every 6 months now they are suggesting every 2 months.

I don't see what the issue with saying this worked for me with a baby with similar symptoms. It might not work but whats the issue with not having dairy for 1 or 2 weeks and then reintroducing. You seem to be indicating that mothers are advised not to reintroduce which I have never seen on the contrary I was advised to eliminate and then reintroduce to see it that was the cause.

But you can't leave a baby suffering for fear that later on they may become intolerant to something. ANYONE can become intolerant or allergic up anything at any time. Through illness, poor diet, medication, or for no reason what so ever. Try it, get the baby settled and then re introduce gradually. If they do become intolerant to milk in later life then so be it. You don't know for sure if its anything to do with what happened as a baby. And quite frankly if they are happy who cares if they never eat milk again. There's chocolate, yogurt, ice cream, sweets, cakes, etc it really isn't a case of eating card board any more. My dairy free dd eats perfectly well thank you. It's not a struggle at all.

TenaciousOne Mon 13-May-13 16:27:45

curry we're not suggesting that eliminating dairy from your diet will make you the perfect mother. We're simply saying our baby presented with x symptoms and it turned out to be CMPI/CMPA, your baby is presenting with the same have you tried it.

Also eliminating dairy will normally mean you eat a wider variety of foods to make up for the loss of nutrients found in dairy. I for one had never drunk oat milk/coconut milk or put these things in my food DS.

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 16:28:54

They are saying try it and seek medical advice

I'm not talking about posters on here who say that they carefully analyse a myriad of symptoms and suggest the OP considers a CMPI. That's fine. I'm talking about posters who simply bumble onto fussy baby threads (or nappy rash ones!) and say 'have you tried cutting out dairy?'

TenaciousOne Mon 13-May-13 16:31:12

I meant to say I had not put these things in my food until I had DS

awkwardsis Mon 13-May-13 16:36:49

I am genuinely confused at all the actual anger that this seems to provoke in people. Truly. Get a grip. Curry, I have had an eating disorder, a serious one. This is in no way comparable. If I didn't want to cut out the milk, I had the option to use formula. This isn't about using dairy as a stick to beat women with fgs. I am happy for people to suggest it wheee there's a possibility of it being an issue. I've been on MN almost ten years. Until ds was born last year I'd never even heard of cmpi. It's something that happened to other people, and any references to it went totally over my head. But when it was relevant to me, by god was I glad so done suggested it. So please, can you all just get a grip. It helped my ds. Perhaps it will help someone else too. That's it. No agenda.

Beachcomber Mon 13-May-13 16:45:19

I wish I had been on MN when DD1 was a baby but I joined much later.

We struggled for months trying to find out what could help her and went from doctor to doctor. Not one of them suggested she had an issue with dairy.

I stumbled on the information myself and it changed our lives. DD had all the classic symptoms; green mucosy stools, projectile vomiting, arching when feeding, reflux, not sleeping, terrible nappy rash, blocked nose, eczema, slow weight gain, etc and not a single doctor diagnosed her correctly (and most of them told me to stop breastfeeding but they didn't have any justification for doing so).

I know if I had been on MN and asked for help we would have been able to help DD much sooner. She is still very allergic to CMP at 9 years old.

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 16:54:45

awkward anger? hmm I cant see anyone who is angry. Debating, and passionate about belief or experience, but mot angry.

curryeater Mon 13-May-13 16:59:55

OHDUCKS - I was going to post something about that.
Awkward - I think you are projecting. I am sorry to hear you had a serious eating disorder and I suspect that this whole conversation is touching a nerve with you.
In the interests of full disclosure: my touched nerve is that I was one of those hellbent breastfeeders who would practically have died rather than give my dcs formula, in my case this single mindedness was associated (as both cause and effect) with PND and I have no idea what advice I would give to someone in my position.
In theory: not worth killing yourself, get a carton of formula and some ear plugs and get a good night's sleep now and then
In practice: the guilt would have made me more depressed

So I am attuned, as we all are, to the piercing bat-squeak of maternal guilt, which resonates nastily with the ever present call to women to "watch what they eat" and it adds up to a very uncomfortable hum (explodes in mixed noisy metaphors)

Beachcomber Mon 13-May-13 17:21:01

Also, I don't know if this was anyone else's experience but some of the doctors we saw pretty much said that I was making DD ill because I was neurotic.

I was stressed and worried and very very tired but I wasn't neurotic you knobheads - I had a very sick child.

So I absolutely don't see suggesting a mother cuts dairy out as a 'mother blaming' thing to do - quite the opposite. It is listening to the mother and th baby and offering a possible solution based on symptoms.

The notion that I was making my baby sick because the arseing medical professionals didn't have a clue what was going on with her was much more damaging to both of us than me cutting out dairy.

Minifingers Mon 13-May-13 17:34:58


Do you work for the dairy industry or something?

Lord knows how the human race thrived for millions of years without cows milk products (and how half the world still does...)

TooExtraImmatureCheddar Mon 13-May-13 17:36:04

What no one has pointed out in this whole thread is this: People on the internet can advise all they like. I could advise you to feed your baby boiled grass and cow shit. You do not have to take my advice! You are an adult with responsibility for your baby. If you don't agree with internet advice then don't try it. If, on the other hand, you think there might be something in it, then do some research and give it a go. All other posters are doing is saying 'hey, here's something you may not have thought of'. It is entirely up to you whether you do it or not.

That's awful beach no one ever suggested it was my fault, my experiences were more total dismissal from anyone I tried to tell. I knew I was right. I knew what the problem was but drs dismissed her bloated tummy as part of being prem. seriously 1 day of 37 weeks isn't really prem. health visitors just banged on about feeding three hourly cos she wasn't gaining weight. She's been ill what did they expect and I said repeatedly the milk was upsetting her and they just carried on saying feed her three hourly. Drs gave movicol and another tried to say it was colic or silent reflux. I had to literally turn round and beg. I told the dr that I'm
Not scamming free formula that I wouldn't have had a baby if I couldn't afford to actually feed her and of it doesn't work o won't ask for any more but please let me try. Lo and behold instant transformation from bottle one. Of I'd have breasted I'd have given up the little dairy I did consume in a heart beat! Wouldn't have thought twice. As it happens she's still dairy free now and aside from a splash I'm coffee I hardly eat because I cook one meal for all.

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 17:41:04

I see what you are saying TooExtreme but its just not true unfortunately. Mums get ill informed and it can be fatal. Putting rusks in bottles, feeding the baby mash and gravy (one baby died of that) and more.

Sure maybe no one will suggest those things on MN, but they get suggested thats for sure and desperate and tired mums listen.

However, milk elimination is one they should listen to.

<contradicts self>

trixymalixy Mon 13-May-13 17:51:19

I also think YABU.

My DS and I went through a couple of months of hell before finally discovering the reason for all the screaming and vomiting was allergies.

My GP would only consider reflux as a diagnosis and when the reflux meds made no difference said that there was nothing else he could do and that it was a "minor inconvenience" that DS would grow out of hmm.

I was made to feel like a total neurotic mother for suggesting a dairy allergy and the idea that CMP could pass through breast milk was laughed at.

Well I am very very grateful to all who posted their experiences on here because it WAS a CMP allergy (and soya, egg, legumes etc). And I for one will continue to post my experiences if the symptoms sound similar to what we went through.

It's not very hard to avoid cow's milk, and for me the potential benefits to someone outweigh the risk that someone cuts out dairy and it's not the cause.

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 17:53:25

Really, OH? You think the mother on the nappy rash thread should eliminate milk? Or the mother with the 3 month old who is fussy in the evenings? (Cluster feeding more likely, no?)

Beachcomber Mon 13-May-13 17:54:18

Wheresmycaffeinedrip - we live in France which may have had something to do with it.

There is much less of a breastfeeding culture here and some of the doctors we saw thought that I was being crazy hormonal unreasonable mum because I didn't want to stop breastfeeding. I would have done if anyone had convinced me that it would help my baby, but they just seemed to suggest it as something to try because let's face it, formula is ace and breastfeeding is a bit old hat (French culture for you!).

I didn't want to stop breastfeeding and I suggested an elimination diet to an allergist we saw and he said I would never stick to it and that it was probably pointless and that if I didn't calm down I shouldn't be surprised that my baby was sick. We wrote to complain about him.

Anyway I'm glad we didn't listen to them because it did turn out to be a problem with dairy and when we tested DD she wouldn't have been able to have formula anyway and was much better having my dairy free breastmilk than hypo-allergenic formula (thankfully it exists for those who need it though).

Cloverer Mon 13-May-13 17:57:56

Dairy isn't really an important part of anyone's diet, so no harm in cutting it out.

Also, lots of babies are allergic to cow's milk protein, so it is worth trying.

It's different to all the old wives tales about cabbage/peppers/onion/fizzy drinks getting through the milk to give your baby wind. I do roll my eyes at those but understand that people with an unsettled baby just feel like they need to try something to help.

Beachcomber Mon 13-May-13 18:03:07

The dismissal thing is awful.

A work colleague of mine ended up with her baby in hospital, anaemic from passing blood and failing to thrive due the irritation and damage in his gut from CMP.

And reflux is such a load of shit - it is such a non diagnosis. It is like saying your child has a temperature and thinking that is a diagnosis. Reflux is a symptom.

I don't think about all this too much nowadays as it was a while ago, but my DD and I went through hell and I'm still angry at the utter incompetence of the doctors we saw.

I think things may be changing a bit now though - DD was in hospital recently and the ward was very accommodating of her CMP allergy whereas 8 years ago she was in for an operation and the hospital actually called a social worker on me when I told them that we needed a dairy free diet for our hospital stay. Fuckers

Yes beach it is a god send. Transformed my baby. She never smiled I actually thought there was something really really wrong cos she just wasn't smiling and I thought I was being a shit mum cos she just wasn't happy. I'm sure you know how crap that feels.

It was so simple to fix to. I'm so glad that she was my second because If she had been my first I wouldn't have had a clue that things shouldn't be that way.

She was tiny beach and she was ill as it was as she was septic. I'd already noticed problems and add iv antibiotics to an already struggling tummy, I'm sure u can imagine. She was five and a half pounds probably less at that point , not an ounce of fat on her. She had no bum as there was no fat to pad it put like a normal baby bottom. Yet she had this massive tummy. But that's normal
Apparently. Really? On a couple of oz of milk? It's normal?

MrsRickyMartin Mon 13-May-13 18:11:43


noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 18:14:34

Cloverer, re 'lots of babies are allergic to cows milk protein'

Edgar posted a link earlier looking at Swedish babies
"1 079 of 1 548 newborn infants were followed during their first year. 328 were prospectively contacted once a month. 751 were followed up at child welfare clinics. Altogether 20 were diagnosed as being cow's milk protein intolerant (1.9%). Symptoms from the gastrointestinal tract and the skin predominated. Only 2 had respiratory symptoms. Ten had their symptoms within one week after the introduction of cow's milk, 3 of them at their first cow's milk-containing meal. A further 4 already had symptoms when fed only human milk. The others (6 infants) showed symptoms after more than one week on a cow's milk containing diet. Before 2 years of age, 13 had recovered. Twelve of the cow's milk protein intolerant infants also showed adverse reactions to other foods, soy-protein intolerance being the most common (7 infants). A family history of allergy was found in 35% (116) of the 328 infants and in 70% (14) of those with cow's milk protein intolerance."

So 4 out of around 1,000 babies had symptoms of CMPI when exclusively bfed. That's not lots of babies! Nor is 20 out of 1,000 who were eventually diagnosed.

Beachcomber Mon 13-May-13 18:16:27

That was our experience too.

DD was tiny with this big tummy. I can hardly bear to look at photos of the time - she looks so sick and I can't believe we were just fobbed off with nonsense about her being born early (only 2 weeks), me being neurotic etc.

Undiagnosed dairy issues cause so much distress in babies (and therefore their parents).

Better a mother cuts dairy out her diet unnecessarily for a few weeks or a baby tries hypo formula for a while than a child goes undiagnosed with this distressing condition.

Big hugs to all those who went through it ((((()))))

Joiningthegang Mon 13-May-13 18:22:45

I wish I did it before my sOn was 10 months - he was so much happier and content without dairy - go advice (no dietary advice though)

IMO lots of people would benefit from this - after 2 years he could tolerate dairy again.

Yabu - if people want to give up dairy to benefit their uncomfortable crying babies there is information out there.

I'm still bitter about it now. The pregnancy was awful and I felt so grateful to have her. But she was so ill the first few months. And although probably unrelated to the cmpi ( maybe) it can't have helped that her body was going through even more stuff. It was weeks ill never get back. I feel cheated and robbed of the first beautiful weeks with a baby. A baby that's definitely my last. If I had just been able to get through to someone maybe shed have been that little bit stronger.

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 18:28:34

noble giraffe that was a link about cows milk intolerance the previous poster spoke of allergies of which are far more common. I mentioned this a while back in your thread.

Beachcomber Mon 13-May-13 18:34:01

Wheresmycaffeinedrip - I feel exactly the same.

The first few weeks DD was happy and everything was great. We were so happy to have her and I can remember thinking 'this isn't so hard, everyone says having a newborn is really hard'. But it wasn't, she was happy and fed well and slept ok (normal newborn sleep) and then she got sick and refused feeds and vomited everywhere and had violent diarrhoea that shot up the back of her nappy and clothes - and this several times a day. And she cried constantly and was so unhappy.

I too feel robbed. My DD was robbed and we are still bitter too.

She was our first so we had no idea and trusted doctors in the beginning.

She was so brave but I'm gutted she went though those months and I still wonder if they affect her now (gut issues and underweight).

More hugs for all of us... (((((())))))

((()))) to you too!!! It's awful. I'm soooo lucky to see her thriving now. There's a couple of unrelated issues but nothing that makes her sick. In fact she's really robust I'm confident it's not affected her. I've also made the decision to keep her dairy free as I see no need to have her drink it now when she's so much healthier than her sister was at the same age.

Beachcomber Mon 13-May-13 18:41:46

Glad your DD is doing well! ((()))

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 19:02:56

OH that's just wrong. Intolerances are more common than allergies.

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 19:10:55

Erm..... Says who now?

Its intolerances AND allergies by the way. Together they are even more common.

JenaiMorris Mon 13-May-13 19:15:54

OH I thought intolerances were more common than allergies, not vice versa (or did I misread you?).

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 19:16:32

The NHS for one

Do you think the Swedish study ignored mik allergies in an attempt to make milk issues look rare? confused

JenaiMorris Mon 13-May-13 19:16:55

X-post there.

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 19:27:57

I was just considering children, adults are more likely to have an intolerance or develop one in adulthood when previously ok. But a baby lr a toddler is more likely to have an allergy (and highly likely to grow out of it) and that link considered those of all ages.

Either way, YAstilBU. And your argument still has no substance. Purely because HCP's are so frighteningly uneducated about it. Otherwise I might semi agree with you.

I took my son to the doctors recently with an ear and chest infections. My son is so highly allergic he literally lives on 4-5 different foods (and even then I have to rotate them because too much and his body will start developing an allergy to it) and breast milk,an array of creams and all soaps at the age of 2, so suffice to say I have a far amount of experience on how allergies present themselves. When I mentioned this to the GP with regards to penicillin, as he'd not had it in a year and is allergic to far more things now than he was 12 months ok, i.e he could have developed a penicilin allergy - his answer was "Dont worry, he'll only develop a mild rash with his first reaction."

My jaw hit the flaw. Fuck. It was my first experience of dim witted, uneducated GP's having no idea about how allergies occur and how it can mean anaphylaxis and death in the first exposure.

He should never, ever tell any parent that, let alone one of a highly allergic child!

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 19:29:49

Sorry that was a bit garbled, I was being distracted.

Cloverer Mon 13-May-13 19:53:31

2% of babies having an intolerance to cow's milk sounds like quite a lot to me.

EdgarAllanPond Mon 13-May-13 20:03:05

cloverer it is worth noting that of that 1.9% 70% had family history of cows milk protein intolerance.

therefore if -

1) Northern European
2) BF ing
3) no family history

that's 0.57%

or about one in 500.

not really rare, but not nearly common enough for it to be a catch all diagnosis.

EdgarAllanPond Mon 13-May-13 20:05:10

It is also unknown whether for the longer term it is better to cut out entirely, reduce, or simply not change dairy intake.

As babies may test positive for intolerance when small but not later, it may be that the tiny amounts of dairy received in BM are what creates tolerance.

this may be true for a wide range of food intolerances.

as i said, we don't know.

EdgarAllanPond Mon 13-May-13 20:08:18

For an example:

my friend had a minor skin rash. she gave up dairy.

it got better. Then she had an ice cream a bit later - this time diahorreah ensued and the rash returned with avengeance.

cutting out the food created something with a more serious level of intolerance in that instance, or so it seems to her.

greenformica Mon 13-May-13 20:10:23

As far as I am concerned calf's are meant to have cows milk. I think the UK are too hyped up about having milk and dairy products when in fact you can get all the calcium needed from a good dairy free diet. We only need to look at other nations to see how few dairy products they consume.

My own 4 kids used to have milk but they all had eczema too. It went away when we stopped having dairy.

babybarrister Mon 13-May-13 20:13:18

DS is anaphylactic to milk and all cow's milk protein ie he could die if he has it - he is now 6 1/2 and in blooming health. Cow's milk is totally over rated in the UK - many ethnic minority groups living in the UK eat very little in the way of dairy products - Japanese, Chinese, Afro-Carribean, Latin Americans etc etc The reality is that it is a very North European custom to consume lots of dairy.

If you cut it out of your diet, it may or may not have an affect on symptoms. I certainly do not think it is such a crucial part of our diet that it would be dangerous in some way to cut out dairy - even if for no reason or a wacky reason

EdgarAllanPond Mon 13-May-13 20:14:03

I think the opposite -

in the UK we have been eating/drinking dairy for tens of thousands of years. It is something we are adapted to eat.

in order to cut it out you have to avoid wide swathes of food that have milk or beef in one form or another (eg crisps have milk powder in)

if you lived in the far East it would probably be much much easier, and there the local population is not well adapted to eating dairy foods.

i think applying a global fact (humanity not being well adapted to eating milk products) to a minority population to which it does not apply is a bad use of statistics.

TenaciousOne Mon 13-May-13 20:14:26

edgar how to you know the avoiding dairy caused that reaction? Sometimes the second exposure can be worse than the first. The first exposure might not even cause a reaction, I seem to recall someone's DS having milk and having a little rash around his cheek where the milk had touched and the next day she gave him some porridge with milk and he reacted more strongly, anaphylactic shock.

EdgarAllanPond Mon 13-May-13 20:18:48

you don't know, it is an anecdotal example to flesh out what i am trying to get across,

ie that complete elimination of a food group could create a greater level of intolerance.

Pancakeflipper Mon 13-May-13 20:18:55

We have only started to consume a vast amounts of dairy since the 1960's.
And this coincides with an increase of processed food/ready meals/snacks etc. the majority of which also have dairy in them.

TenaciousOne Mon 13-May-13 20:19:50

We haven't adapted to eat dairy. My DH has cut out dairy as well but he's not as strict as I am and sometimes will have a milkshake. He finds his hayfever is worse for a week after having dairy, his stomach plays up and he generally doesn't feel good for it.

TenaciousOne Mon 13-May-13 20:20:23

Or simply her reaction was always going to be worse on the second exposure.

EdgarAllanPond Mon 13-May-13 20:20:50

tenacious i hope you aren't claiming as a single family to be factually representative of all Northern Europeans?

It's not hard to cut dairy out - just eat unprocessed foods. I've done it twice - both of mine reacted badly to dairy and soya.

I don't think intolerances or even allergies and the body's reaction are that well understood.

I also don't think GPs and HVs etc have a good understanding of what the problems could be.

Both of my babies were terribly affected by silent reflux - not throwing up all day reflux, but heartburn. It took ages of me having to work out what the hell was wrong with them. Ds, my first, had acid coming out of nose one day at 12 weeks which gave me a clue. While all the while people around me told me that he was just being a newborn. I didn't know any newborns who stayed awake from 5pm until 3am screaming. And screaming. And screaming. When he got older I made the mistake of giving him a ready meal (baby food) which had traces of milk in, cue acid running out of his nose again.
Thank god I knew what to look for in dd.

If you've tried everything, giving up dairy for a couple of weeks is a drop in the ocean. If it doesn't work, then at least you can rule it out. People shouldn't suggest it lightly but for some it is a desperate measure.

trixymalixy Mon 13-May-13 20:21:34

You don't have to avoid beef if you're allergic to cow's milk hmm

And it's not really that hard to avoid products containing milk.

EdgarAllanPond Mon 13-May-13 20:22:52

One of the American papers i read insisted that it was necessary to eliminate beef ...see if i can find again...

trixymalixy Mon 13-May-13 20:26:05

My DS was so allergic to milk that we couldn't go in coffee shops where they were steaming milk, but has always been fine with beef. I've never seen anyone on the allergy boards avoiding beef if allergic to milk. Anecdotal I know, but there are a lot of parents of CMP allergic kids on there, and the consultant never mentioned avoiding beef.

TenaciousOne Mon 13-May-13 20:26:57

Also not all crisps have milk powder in. I need my crisp fix, but have to avoid prawn cocktail, Thai sweet chilli and skips to name a few.

CoteDAzur Mon 13-May-13 20:27:13

"some people live quite healthily and happily without any dairy at all - e.g., vegans"

Just like Gwyneth Paltrow, you mean? The woman managed to give herself early osteoporosis in her late-30.

She is not a vegan anymore. Wonder why.

I think there is a possible link to beef and cows milk protein allergies. Not that if you are allergic to cows milk protein you will also be allergic to beef, but that you could be. I've read that too.

TenaciousOne Mon 13-May-13 20:28:15

Nope I'm not edgar however my DH being affected by milk is important as the allergy/asthma etc... comes from my side of the family.

trixymalixy Mon 13-May-13 20:29:48

Gwyneth Paltrow barely eats, she's hardly representative of vegans!

babybarrister Mon 13-May-13 20:30:26

please believe trixy and I who are sadly experts on these issues having dc who are anaphylactic - you do NOT have to cut out beef to avoid dairy ie cows milk protein "cmp". yes, it can be difficult to avoid but it is possible - those of us with DC anaphylactic to cmp have to make sure we do avoid it or we may kill them ....

FWIW my DS is treated by the most expert paediatric allergy centre in Europe at St Thomas - I think I can be pretty sure that they would have said something to me about beef given the level of my DS allergic reaction to cmp

trixymalixy Mon 13-May-13 20:31:25

Creature that is possible, but Edgar stated it as if it was a given that you had to avoid beef if allergic to milk.

EdgarAllanPond Mon 13-May-13 20:32:11

mentions beef

mentions beef but small sample

When I did the total elimination diet, I cut out beef just in case.

CoteDAzur Mon 13-May-13 20:36:23

If anyone is interested, Google's "scholarly articles" have something to say on the subject:

Lactating Women Restricting Milk Are Low on Select Nutrients

Conclusions: Milk restriction compromised protein and nutrient intakes in lactating women who restricted milk to <250 mL. Vitamin/mineral supplements helped exclusively breastfeeding milk restrictors improve their vitamin D and calcium intakes. Milk restriction is not recommended during lactation and where unavoidable, nutrients provided by milk should be compensated for by other foods or supplements.

EdgarAllanPond Mon 13-May-13 20:39:01

I stated that because one of the papers mentioned elimination of beef as necessary, if I can't find it (and ten minutes on, i still haven't) I'm quite happy to concede the point.

babybarrister Mon 13-May-13 20:39:36

I think that is tosh - try telling it to anyone Asian! I hate milk and dairy and never drank any aside from in a cup of tea each morning. DS was exclusively breastfed and thrived. He is also anaphylactic to cmp...

EdgarAllanPond Mon 13-May-13 20:43:30


EdgarAllanPond Mon 13-May-13 20:45:59

babybarrister if you are Asian living in Asia, then quite likely you are in a food culture that supports non-dairy diets quite well (though just try cutting out egg and chicken...not so easy)

My vegan friend in this country may - by being an exceptionally bad vegan - have given herself a blood disorder. i didn't see how that worked tbh but that was what the consultant said...

to be fair she really didn't do it very well (think full can of chick peas in place of a meal)

TenaciousOne Mon 13-May-13 20:49:40

Cote read your whole article, you can't just cut out a source of nutrients without replacing. That's pretty obvious, hence why you should talk to a health professional.

Paintingrainbowskies Mon 13-May-13 20:49:58


My 18 month old has cmpi and soya intolerance. She dropped from 75th to 5th centile after birth, would scream and couldn't sleep, her nappies were so acidic they would burn.

I am still angry that I accepted endless medication, horrible ranitidine (containing alcohol), thickeners and creams for her skin. Plus rounds of anti biotics for her infected looking eczema.

Finally a different GP at 8 weeks suggested I go dairy free, she didn't improve overnight, it takes time for the proteins to leave bm but after about 6 weeks she was a new child. Finally she was back to birth weight, had clear skin and was happy and content.

I did a lot of reading about vegan diets and am now completely happy that she gets all the nutrients she needs. I'm lucky that hubby is a chef and we don't eat processed food much so it was easy to cook everything with dairy free alternatives.

My reading led me to feel confident that we do not need cows milk in our diet, it's just easier to get children to drink milk.

TenaciousOne Mon 13-May-13 20:50:41

What blood disorder? Anaemia? That would make sense on that sort of diet.

babybarrister Mon 13-May-13 20:57:07

well I was certainly not suggesting that a person who stops dairy does not make sure that they get calcium from other sources - as I say my DS has never had any dairy or many other things [long list of allergens including nuts, lentils, eggs, sesame, peas, poppy seeds, mustard seeds] and is constantly checked by his consultants and is found to be in blooming health ...

I make sure he eats a lot of fish - just like the Japanese who happen to eat very dairy little dfairy and live longer than anyone else .....

Bessie123 Mon 13-May-13 20:57:51

I wish, wish, wish someone had told me to cut dairy out of my diet (and later ds', when he started eating food). Dairy and soya made him so poorly for a whole year before we worked out what was wrong. The poor little boy had a miserable time.

EdgarAllanPond Mon 13-May-13 20:58:35

painting rainbowskies those are severe symptoms that warrant investigation, fitting the bill as described by the articles.

what i think noble is getting at is that throwing 'give up dairy' as a catch-all solution for babies within the 'normal' range of baby problems isn't warranted.

what i am trying to get at is that because the jury is still out on how allergies/ intolerances develop, it is possible that is harmful advice or at least unfounded.

EdgarAllanPond Mon 13-May-13 21:00:08

she wouldn't call it Anaemia however said her blood cells were the wrong shape. so anaemia then....

CoteDAzur Mon 13-May-13 21:01:11

Of course children don't need cow's milk in their diet. You can breastfeed them yourself until they stop growing wink

GirlOutNumbered Mon 13-May-13 21:04:06

Why are people so obsessed about humans drinking another animals milk.
As said upthread, it's weird.

CoteDAzur Mon 13-May-13 21:04:07

"said her blood cells were the wrong shape"

Sickle cell anaemia? That is inherited. Not related to diet iirc.

CoteDAzur Mon 13-May-13 21:04:50

Another study, if anyone's interested:

Maternal vegan diet causing a serious infantile neurological disorder due to vitamin B12 deficiency.

Kühne T, Bubl R, Baumgartner R.
University Children's Hospital Basel, Switzerland.

We present a 9-month-old exclusively breast-fed baby of a strict vegetarian mother who had excluded all animal proteins from her diet. The patient's symptoms included dystrophy, weakness, muscular atrophy, loss of tendon reflexes, psychomotor regression and haematological abnormalities. Biochemical investigations revealed severe methylmalonic aciduria and homocystinuria in the patient, slight methylmalonic aciduria in the mother and low concentrations of serum vitamin B12 in both patient and mother.

EdgarAllanPond Mon 13-May-13 21:05:34

indeed. though it is quite a useful food stuff.

no individual food stuff is 'necessary', however plenty are useful and i don't think it wise to cut them out without good reason - reason founded on good quality research.

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 21:05:46

Babybarrister, I looked up the life expectancy table. It's true that the Japanese have the longest life expectancy. Do you know which country comes second?


So much for your suggestion that it is lack of dairy that leads to longer life expectancy!

EdgarAllanPond Mon 13-May-13 21:07:30

sounded a bit weird to me too cote but as it's all second hand i really don't know. it was still a shockingly poor diet.

the Uk does not support dairy-free well.

EdgarAllanPond Mon 13-May-13 21:08:34

mountain air obviously helps smile

CoteDAzur Mon 13-May-13 21:08:59

That vegan friend's problem could be pernicious anemia, caused by B12 deficiency - common problem of vegan diets.

GirlOutNumbered Mon 13-May-13 21:09:28

The uk doesn't support dairy free very well. As in, restaurants and cafes don't really out anything on their menu. However, I don't really struggle. I have oat and nut milks, vitalite or nut butter and do all my own baking,

The only thing I miss is cheeses but my waistline is thankful!

CoteDAzur Mon 13-May-13 21:10:06

Erm I think you will all find that Monaco is the country with the highest life expectancy smile

GirlOutNumbered Mon 13-May-13 21:10:08

Even tesco do their own range of almond and coconut milks now.

babybarrister Mon 13-May-13 21:10:26

I never said LACK of dairy leads to longer life expectancy but certainly it is not the case that it reduces life expectancy which is what some posters on here seem to be suggesting!

Clearly if you eat a lot of other food with calcium, there is absolutely no harm caused not having cow's milk protein ...

CoteDAzur Mon 13-May-13 21:11:24

"almond and coconut milks"

Those are not milk, just some white liquid.

Milk comes from the breasts of mammals.

When I cut out dairy I sought other sources of essential vitamins and minerals. I felt and looked so much better for it!

I still don't get the panic about how hard it is. It's not. U can still make cakes just switch the butter, Swedish glacé non Dairy vanilla is nicer than many of the cheaper dairy ice creams. There are plenty of crisps available. The alpro soya yogurts are perfectly nice as is the custard. There is no need to miss out on cakes and biscuits and pancakes. Dd2 was ill for the first few weeks. She had permanent congestion dry skin etc

I've served entirely dairy free three course meals and no ones even noticed. If you avoid the processed reformed crap that's not good for you anyway then your fine. By rights my dd should be a pale skinny sickly little thing. That's pretty much what everyone suggested. Ill tell you now, aside from calpol when she's had a cold she's not required any antibiotics or anything since she was 6 months old. Shes now two and s half. Compare that to her sister who by this time had had several chest infections and hospital admissions and caught everything going. She fares far better than every other toddler I know, they all constantly cough and sniff and pour with snot.

Some of you make out avoiding dairy is like depriving a child of oxygen.

It really isn't that hard. And I really don't see y people so adamant to breast feed as its best and its natural, wouldn't want to give that a go before resorting to all the artificial preservative and risk laden medicines. Defeats the object surely??

If it was that unhealthy then wouldn't we be tripping over all the collapsed vegans on the way to work????

GirlOutNumbered Mon 13-May-13 21:17:33

So I got the name wrong Cote. Still taste great in my coffee and pancakes.

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 21:20:26

There seems to be two different tables, cote

Not sure how they are worked out. Either way, I think GDP is probably a better predictor of life expectancy than dairy consumption smile

MiaowTheCat Mon 13-May-13 21:20:38

It's a fucking nightmare trying to get taken seriously with anything tummy-related with kids by the doctors - I can fully understand people cutting out dairy as SOMETHING they can try on their own to see if it makes some difference - because you sure as fuck don't get taken seriously by GPs when you show up there trying desperately to tell them that things aren't quite right with your baby.

Only people who've taken me seriously have been the health visitor and the dietician she's working with - the doctors have gone into "neurotic mother... fob her off" mode with a vengeance. If I was breastfeeding - I'd have tried cutting the dairy out of desperation to try to get a solution to it all a good few weeks ago (sadly I've had to wait for the wheels to turn to get prescription formula on trial - and those wheels have turned particularly slowly).

Waiting for the happy baby with shiny soft skin people on here keep mentioning when we get her fully onto the formula of hideous taste - poor bairn at the moment has skin pitted and rashed up like sandpaper that goes an increasing shade of red as the feed goes into her! I DID get a smile today that wasn't followed with me being thrown up on so we're making progress!

babybarrister Mon 13-May-13 21:23:07

Japan currently has best stats for how long children born today will live. Lots of other non-dairy eating nations also high up life expectancy stats ....

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 21:26:26

cote presumably that mother was vegan when pregnant, so its no wonder she was deficient. It would have ony got worse, especially if she didnt have supplements.

CoteDAzur Mon 13-May-13 21:30:18

Yes, babybarrister, we are all looking at the same page of "List of countries by life expectancy".

The only reason Japan is #1 on that first list you are looking at is that Monaco, Andorra, San Marino etc are not considered as countries there. Scroll down a bit and you will see that #1 is Monaco with 89.73 years at birth. Japan is #5 with 82.25.

Anyway, as noblegiraffe said GDP per capita is a great indicator of life expectancy in a country.

CoteDAzur Mon 13-May-13 21:31:53

OHFor - I think the more important point there is that her breastfed baby was terribly deficient.

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 21:45:34

I just checked, soya milk and almond milk are over 3 times as expensive as cows milk. Those who are saying that it is not hard to switch, are you taking cost into account?

Are you putting a price on a happy baby noble ?

When cutting out dairy and soya, I didn't think well actually my baby will continue to suffer just because cheese is cheaper.

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 21:52:21

No, not at all. But people seem to be saying that it's fine to tell a mum to give a dairy free diet a go because it's easy, that finding calcium elsewhere isn't an issue, and I'm wondering if they think it's not a problem that it's more expensive too.

I'm saying that more care should be taken and that it simply shouldn't be suggested on a whim as seems to happen in some cases.

People are adult enough to make their own decisions. I did it from reading MN and other sites. I'm not a sheep and do realise that posters are not gurus who I must follow blindly.

It's cheaper than constant cab fares and bus fares to a&e and drs!! Think of all the money you save in saline sprays to clear out the nose, washing powder cos you have to wash clothes for the tenth time that day. All that coffee you don't need to drink cos baby isn't keeping u up all night.

Trust me it pays for itself noble

noblegiraffe Mon 13-May-13 21:56:51

Caffeine, how about in the case of the three month old who was being fussy in the evening, or the baby with the nappy rash?

Do you think a dairy elimination diet would pay for itself in those situations?

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 21:58:23

I realise that cote, but the mother cannot give what her body does not have.

If she was already deficient before being pregnant, then that would have made it much worse. It would have given the little it had to the baby which wouldnt have been enough, and so continues when breastfed.

I bet my bottom dollar this deficiency started far before her pregnancy even began.

I haven't read that thread noble. Given you seem so good at explaining everything away I'm
Unable to comment on that particular case. Fwiw dd2 had horrendous nappy rash caused by green acidic poos. In her case yes it would have done.

Perhaps you should be a gp as you seem able to normalise every single symptom others have posted. I don't think it can be said to much to be honest because even of its irrelevant to the op if someone reads the post and it plants the idea in their head then that's great IMO. Cos if it doesn't fit for that baby then it might still help another and that's a good thing isn't it?

babybarrister Mon 13-May-13 22:05:01

yes Cote - I can only repeat my point that the fact that not only Japan but lots of other Asian countries with low levels of dairy consumption are high up in the life expectancy compared to other rich countries with high levels of dairy consumption shows at the very least that a lack of dairy is clearly not an indicator of poor health

CoteDAzur Mon 13-May-13 22:06:19

Deficient doesn't mean mother's body didn't have that mineral at all. It would have been conceivable that mother's breast milk be complete with the necessary minerals, even if that means depleting her reserves completely.

I was told when pregnant that what I eat doesn't matter because "baby takes what it needs from you". I'm not so sure about that.

CoteDAzur Mon 13-May-13 22:08:44

To clarify to those of us still talking about trips to A&E:

Nobody is objecting to mothers of CMP allergic babies avoiding milk consumption.

OP is about mothers of babies with vague "symptoms" like being fussy, and how those mums are being told to avoid dairy for six weeks.

trixymalixy Mon 13-May-13 22:12:39

Plenty of vegan mothers breast feed, and they and their babies are perfectly healthy. It's also perfectly possible for a breast feeding mother on a dairy eating diet and their baby to be deficient if the mother isn't eating well enough.

Is it really so ingrained in our society that people cannot believe that you do not need cow's milk to have a perfectly balanced diet?!?!

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 22:14:28

Well taking into consideration everything you have just said then cote the babys deficiency had nothing to do with the mothers vegan diet.

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 22:15:48

And cote ALL babies with CMP issues start off fussy before elimination.

So yes, some mums will do well to eliminate dairy if their baby is fussy.

Piemother Mon 13-May-13 22:20:34

Mostly yanbu but more by inference than the actual op.
what you are saying about babies being fussy and growing out of things is a big thing and actual problems are a bit over diagnosed. By problems I mean not restricted to dairy issues.

There is a Facebook page, actually several, which is much more gung ho that cutting out dairy and amber beads will cure all wink

CoteDAzur Mon 13-May-13 22:21:44

Most if not all babies are "fussy". Am I missing something?

DD cried nonstop for 5 months. She is not allergic to cow milk.

DS had terrible reflux and would vomit incredible amounts of breastmilk after each feed which would run down the length of my dress and pool on the ground. He is not allergic to cow milk.

CoteDAzur Mon 13-May-13 22:23:13

Another study:

Children who avoid drinking cow milk have low dietary calcium intakes and poor bone health1,2,3
Ruth E Black, Sheila M Williams, Ianthe E Jones, and Ailsa Goulding
+ Author Affiliations

1From the Departments of Human Nutrition (REB), Preventive and Social Medicine (SMW), and Medical and Surgical Sciences (IEJ and AG), University of Otago Medical School, Dunedin, New Zealand.

Conclusions: In growing children, long-term avoidance of cow milk is associated with small stature and poor bone health. This is a major concern that warrants further study.

CoteDAzur Mon 13-May-13 22:23:52

OHfor - No, actually, that is not what I have said at all. Maybe read that post again.

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 22:24:14

That was patronising Piemother. Did you read the whole thread? How some of our babies nearly died from milk consumption?
How baby and mother go through absolute hell before they find out problem.
Can I assume you have never experienced it?

Go to the allergy forum and see if women are self diagnosing their babies sniffles for CMPA.

I assure you, they re not. hmm

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 22:26:03

Thats a bold statement. Children who dont drink cows milk have poor bones.

Not 'some' or 'might'?

I can say right now thats rubbish. My toddler is not deficient in anything and hes only had cows milk once.

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 22:27:22

No not all or most babies are 'fussy'. News to me!

CoteDAzur Mon 13-May-13 22:27:32

Again, maybe read the study before commenting.

Obviously, it is referring to the children who took part in the study.

apachepony Mon 13-May-13 22:27:56

Yanbu. After reading one too many threads on here, I decided that ds' green poo nappies, his wind, is waking through the night might be diary allergy related so tried to cut out diary. I lasted 2 days. Personally I love milky cups of tea, cereal, cheese (yum), creamy sauces, lattes, the occasional chocolate - obviously I'm a bad mum for failing to give up diary. Ds green poo nappies stopped after a few days, he's still windy if he's not burped properly & still wakes up during the night but he's a pretty happy baby and I don't think he's diary intolerant! The risk of diagnosis over the Internet, thinking it's something greater than just 6 week old baby behaviour...

CoteDAzur Mon 13-May-13 22:28:51

And again, nobody is saying parents of children who are severely allergic to cow's milk should feed it to them anyway.

This is about children who are not allergic to cow's milk, who don't end up in A&E or risk death if they drink a bit of milk.

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 22:31:02

For you it wasnt CMPI so no mums should try eliminating milk if they suspect a problem apachepony? That would mean a lot of very ill babies....

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 22:32:09

Who do you think suggested anyone thought it was a good idea to feed milk to an allergic child?

No one has suggested that, nor accused anyone of suggesting that.

OHforDUCKScake Mon 13-May-13 22:33:23

And cote about those children who ate not allergic to milk and dont end up in A and E, great! Thats brilliant for them. What is your point?

CoteDAzur Mon 13-May-13 22:34:08

Why do you act like this thread is about children like yours, then? hmm

trixymalixy Mon 13-May-13 22:35:02

Cote, I thought you were quite a bright person? In all these studies you are linking to the subjects were not replacing milk with any kind of calcium rich substitute or mineral supplement.

It's fairly bloody obvious that if you're not ingesting any calcium then you're going to be deficient. IT JUST DOESN'T NEED TO COME FROM COW'S MILK!!!!

There are plenty of calcium enriched "milks", rice, oat, almond, coconut, soya available.

CoteDAzur Mon 13-May-13 22:35:02

My point is clear, OHFor but you are so emotionally invested in this subject that you can't see it. (Sorry)

Likeaninjanow Mon 13-May-13 22:37:50

Sadly, babies with CMPA start out as fussy babies though. I researched my sons symptoms online, and spoke to a consultant & my GP about my concerns. Both told me not to be ridiculous. It was highly unlikely he'd be allergic & reacting through breast milk.

I was right. He has a severe CMPA. If I'd gone along with the consultant & the GP I dread to think what life would have been like.

So, sometimes fussy babies (along with other symptoms) do have CMPA. It's not difficult to cut it out completely & I ate out easily. I asked for help and was given none.

apachepony Mon 13-May-13 22:41:26

I have not read the research on cmpi and so can't comment on that. I simply agree with the op that reading too am y threads on the Internet about diary intolerances could lead to mothers unnecessarily restricting their diets and some of the pleasures of food, as well as a food source of calcium for no reason whatsoever. Is there a possibility that cutting out diary could increase intolerances? Rather like how cutting out peanuts during pregnancy is now shown to increase the likelihood of allergies? Has research on this been done?

Ragusa Mon 13-May-13 22:41:31

Honestly, it is not a big deal to do without dairy for the 3-4 weeks that a CMP trial would take. There is no evidence that dietary restriction leads to increased sensitisation on re-introduction of that foodstuff. There is, however, evidence that CMP can cause Food Protein Induced Enterocolitis Syndrome (FPIES), Oesinophilic Oesophagitis, other forms of colitis, faltering growth, anaemia, secondary lactose intolerance, and feed refusal/ aversions.

I know the plural of anecdote is not evidence, but out of my immediate group of friends, the only one who was not either anaemic, lacking in vitamin D or vitamin B12 during pregnancy, was my vegan-since-the-age-of 17 best mate.

Of course it's not appropriate to suggest dairy intolerance/ allergy solely because a baby has nappy rash or is fussy in the evenings. To be perfectly honest, the majority of threads I see on here where dairy allergy is suggested as a possible cause are not predominantly cases of babies suffering minor inconveniences like these.

Going back to the OP, IME you are far more likely to stop breastfeeding if you are driven into the ground by a wailing banshee who vomits all over you ever half an hour, and sleeps for 6 hours in every 24, than if you have to cut out dairy for a few weeks confused. I speak from experience.

babybarrister Mon 13-May-13 22:42:00

what cote and others seem to be missing is any serious consideration of the process of discovering that milk can kill your child .....

the fact of the matter is that it starts by advice from a health professional to start eliminating cow's milk both by the DC and the mother if BF

whilst I am all for people getting proper medical advice and not relying on quacks or internet advice, people on here who have not been through this themselves need to appreciate that no-one gets to see an allergy consultant without going through their GP and GPs in the main are very sceptical so without having tried elimination mothers are generally fobbed off.

when you add to that the fact that many, many people exist very happily without dairy, even it turns out that elimination was pointless and/or quackery, personally I think that it is a reasonable path to take

it simply is not the same as cutting out whole food groups - it is simply one food product which many people in the UK hardly consume in any event

for anyone who thinks that only dairy products can guarantee height, come along to a meeting of the Anaphylaxis Campaign and meet some cmp free members grin

CoteDAzur Mon 13-May-13 22:42:24

trixy - I think the point is that calcium isn't the only nutrient children need from milk, and that managing to get all of them on a regular basis into the diet is not at all easy.

It is similar to how vegetarians think they get enough iron from various other sources, so what's the problem with not eating meat? They make the mistake of thinking iron is all meat is good for and don't realise that it is quite hard to get that much iron on a regular basis if you are going to be vegetarian. (A recent example is a vegetarian friend who was shocked to see that her blood tests show that she is terribly anaemic, despite the care she puts into planning her diet)

Yes, cow milk is best for baby cows and breast milk is best for human babies. However, if you are not prepared to breastfeed for 18 years and if your child isn't in the 1% or so of the population who are allergic to cow's milk, I fail to see why you would want to restrict his diet to avoid milk.

Ragusa Mon 13-May-13 22:44:10

apachepony, there is no conclusive evidence nor scientific consensus that peanut allergy is more likely if mothers avoid peanuts during pregnancy.

youarewinning Mon 13-May-13 22:46:24

I cut out dairy a few months back.

Have a soya alternative.

I no longer have the bowel issues I suffered for 20 years.

I'm healthier than ever.

YABU. People give advice on the internet. It's up to the reader to make the sensible and mature decision on if and how to follow it.

babybarrister Mon 13-May-13 22:47:21

Re nut allergies, the department of health removed the advice a couple of years ago in relation to not consuming nuts during pregnancy. And yes there is lots of research going on - my DS is on the LEAP study grin

Piemother Mon 13-May-13 22:47:33

OH - babies being fussy and serious medical issue symptoms arnt really the same are they.

Piemother Mon 13-May-13 22:50:45

Dd1 and dd2 vomited like the exorcist in their first 3 months every single day. Neither are allergic to cmp. Actually dd2 could be I suppose, there's still time for arguments sake.

cote that study you linked to stated that few children drank high calcium drinks or took supplements. 9 were also obese which means they clearly already had a poor diet. It is possible to be mal nourished even if you eat everything. For example you can't eat crap all the time and think a glass of milk will make up the short fall.

If you rely on one thing to provide your nutrition then obviously of you take it away you will become ill. It's all about balance

Ragusa Mon 13-May-13 22:52:05

From the FSA:

In August 2009, the Government revised its advice to consumers about eating peanuts during pregnancy, breastfeeding and the first few years of life, in relation to the risk of developing peanut allergy in childhood.

The change in advice followed a major review of the scientific evidence that showed there is no clear evidence that eating or not eating peanuts (or foods containing peanuts) during pregnancy, breastfeeding or early childhood has any effect on the chances of a child developing a peanut allergy. Therefore, the Government’s previous advice that women may wish to avoid peanuts during pregnancy and breastfeeding and not introduce peanuts into their child’s diet before three years of age, if their child has a family history of allergy, was no longer appropriate.

trixymalixy Mon 13-May-13 23:01:24

Cote, the milks I listed are all enriched with vitamins and minerals other than calcium, it was just that the last study you linked to was specifically about calcium deficiency.

Who exactly is suggesting cutting milk out of a non allergic child's diet for no good reason?

Plenty of us on the allergy boards manage to bring up non deficient children without cow's milk and it's really not that hard. In fact I'm willing to bet that as more thought goes into it that they're likely to be less deficient than a lot of kids who do eat dairy.

trixymalixy Mon 13-May-13 23:03:18

That should have read:

Who exactly is suggesting cutting milk out of a non allergic child's diet for 18 years for no good reason?

CoteDAzur Mon 13-May-13 23:04:02

trixy - re "Who exactly is suggesting cutting milk out of a non allergic child's diet for no good reason?"

Believe it or not, it has become a bit of a standard advice on the internet to new mums struggling with fussy babies or those with reflux, odd-colored poo etc.

If you read the OP, you will see that is the sort of thing it is talking about.

CoteDAzur Mon 13-May-13 23:05:30

Ah x-post smile

That "breastfeed them for 18 years, then" comment was at people saying that children don't need cow's milk. And there was a wink after it.

trixymalixy Mon 13-May-13 23:13:18


I fail to see why people think its such a bad thing to cut dairy out for a couple of weeks? If it helps then fantastic, if it doesn't then I hardly think either the mother or the baby are going to become massively deficient in such a short space of time even if the mother doesn't substitute for the milk.

In my case the difference in my DS was obvious within a day or two.

Cloverer Mon 13-May-13 23:38:49

Cote - but children don't need milk for 18 years confused They need milk for 2 years-ish, during infancy.

GirlOutNumbered Tue 14-May-13 01:53:30

I'm on my second round of dairy free, as DS2 has CMPI. I feel fantastic.
I would say there has been no impact whatsoever on my children either.
Both have vitamin drops too, fwiw. Which is recommended for all children under 5.

sashh Tue 14-May-13 05:57:06

Well, some people live quite healthily and happily without any dairy at all - e.g., vegans.

Also Asians, Africans, Indigenous people from north and south America, Australia various pacific islands.

Basically any one who is not European or of European descent, plus the percentage who are European but can't tolerate lactose.

ivanapoo Tue 14-May-13 07:21:34

I'm currently on week 3 of a no dairy trial and its really not that hard to do, assuming you can read to check ingredients... (And I don't eat meat either). I might have:

Cereal (with almond milk) or toast with spread and jam for breakfast

Lentil and veg soup for lunch served with a green salad

Home made veg curry and rice for dinner

Fruit, crisps, nuts, biscuits, cake, hummus and veg for snacks - Aldi's bara brith and pretzels are my latest discoveries.

No milk chocolate is the hardest thing for me and that's not exactly essential is it. I just eat Nakd cocoa bars instead.

As it happens I haven't seen a marked improvement in DS' symptoms so will probably go back to dairy once the three weeks is over (any ideas on other foods that can cause reflux, eczema, wind, liquid poos welcomed!).

StayAwayFromTheEdge Tue 14-May-13 07:30:07

A dairy free diet was life changing for us with DS2, the change from a screaming baby who barely slept to a content little buddle within a week or so was amazing.

It wasn't easy to do and going out for a meal was difficult (except for Chinese) - we successfully reintroduced milk very slowly when he was 9 months without any problems.

noblegiraffe Tue 14-May-13 07:31:58

I fail to see why people think its such a bad thing to cut dairy out for a couple of weeks? If it helps then fantastic

Nappy rash, fussy babies etc may well see an improvement after two weeks (I understand it takes longer than that for milk protein to leave the system though) anyway. The mother will then mistakenly attribute the improvement to the restricted diet, diagnose the baby with a problem it hasn't got and stick with the restricted diet for the entire period of breastfeeding.
Given that a study linked to upthread suggested that only 4 in 1000 babies suffered symptoms of CMPI from breast milk alone, and given the amount of babies that are fussy, have nappy rash etc, cutting out dairy really shouldn't be a standard suggestion.

TenaciousOne Tue 14-May-13 07:34:58

Cote You keep going on about people cutting diary out but miss the fact that you need to reintroduce dairy to be sure, unless you child has been diagnosed with CMPA. You only restrict the diet for a few weeks, if when you reintroduce dairy there is no adverse reaction they can go back to a dairy diet.

ivan many babies allergic to milk also have problems with soya. My dd is ok with soya so I haven't ever needed to check ingredients if things I know are dairy free. Soya would be the next thing worth removing but multiple restrictions is where you would need to be extra careful. If it makes a difference avoiding both I would strongly advise a dietitian or someone who can help you stick to a healthy intake.

My DD has lactose intolerance. Her symptoms are 100% textbook. Including vomiting and diarrhea.

She was not diagnosed until age was almost 4, because I was quite sceptical if all the 'it could be dairy' suggestions, and despite taking her to several different GPs/HVs, many times none of them ever suggested any kind of food intolerance to me.

Eventually I did try it for myself, it does work and every time she has had even the tiniest bit of lactose since she has reacted with diarrhea in the next 20mins-2hrs (as I say completely classic symptoms)

In the meantime, all the things she was misdiagnosed as (reflux, toddler diarrhea, constipation) have meant more months, more years of her condition being aggravated. Can you imagine having diarrhea for four years and then tell me that is harmless? Because it isn't harmless at all.

I'm actually not European, and my father was lactose intolerant as a child which you would hope a GP would have picked up on as a risk factor, but no that didn't happen.

YABU. I'm glad your child isn't allergic to dairy, but mine is and I should have cut it out sooner.

trixymalixy Tue 14-May-13 08:04:09

Noble, it might take longer than two weeks for the CMP to leave your system completely, but really you should see an improvement very quickly.

Look at how many people on this thread who had GPs who refused to believe their baby was reacting to their breast milk and it turned out to be genuine allergies/intolerances. I bet none of them are included in those figures you give. ALL of them are grateful to people sharing their stories in the Internet.

Really YABVVU, and no way will I stop suggesting it on threads. I will remind them to seek medical advice and make sure they have a balanced diet, but quite honestly that medical advice very often isn't there because of the ignorance of GPs when it comes to breast feeding and allergies/intolerances.

LadyInDisguise Tue 14-May-13 08:06:59

These are not the desperate parents who have been battling for months with a seriously unhappy baby that you think are being advised at long last the solution to all their troubles.

Actually when ds was 3 months old and was being unhappy and crying, I WAS desperate. That combined with other issues at birth and just after birth send me in desperation that I couldn't look after my child properly.
I don't think that you can judge from a few posts on the internet if a woman with a 3months old IS being desperate or not.
If the woman asking for advice IS being desperate, she will try (or will look at it and will never muster the courage to do it anyway...).

Your attitude though is the reason why I never mentioned that ds was allergic to cows milk, that goats milk was OK etc... Because I knew I would have so many people telling me that it was just bogus diagnosis, that he actually wasn't allergic to milk (or wasn't intolerant) etc etc.

But the issue is much wider isn't it. Because if we go by the 'Oh babies change quickly, in 2 weeks time it will be gone' or 'Oh yes there was change but it can't be the milk, it's just coincidence', then it means that people will reject what could be a very simple and easy way to help their baby. Granted it's not life threatening. But you shouldn't minimize the effect that having an unhappy baby can have on some women (PND anyone?) and thereby the effect it has on the babies. If there is some improvement and women feel empowered to make choice re the health of their baby and look after them (by looking for answers instead of just listening to what relatives are telling them), then it's all good. Regardless of whether removing milk has been the reason of the improvement or not.

Btw,I personally would NOT come anywhere near soya milk, let alone giving it a baby. But seeing that this is something widely available in any supermarket, I would suggest that a lot of people are already dairy free anyway....

LadyInDisguise Tue 14-May-13 08:11:30

And yes TeWi, 4 years of diarrhoea is an issue for a 4yo. sad for your dd.

I found it hard not to beat myself up that I had been listening to HCP for so long and ignoring my own judgement because it meant ds was unwell for longer than it needed.

RussiansOnTheSpree Tue 14-May-13 08:18:30

YABVU I do not understand why dairy lovers are so desperate to make everyone eat dairy.

Yes. I do feel really guilty. She is still quite nervous about getting to the toilet on time, and I know that's partly the stress of having potty trained with the constant diarrhea not being understood iykwim.

She is much better and happier now. I'm still waiting for my dietician referral though - The waiting list is huge here!

I won't say YABU because it is your opinion and you don't harm me with your opinion. I cut out dairy apartf from grass-fed butter a while ago and I wish I would have done it much earlier. Not only my skin has improved but also I feel much better in general. I used to consume a lot of dairy products. Humans weren't mean to consume dairy, the same with wheat and most of the carbs but still we are being told that carbs are essential in your diet. Not true, do some research and you never want to eat any grains especially wheat again.

JenaiMorris Tue 14-May-13 08:41:33

sashh any one who is not European or of European descent doesn't eat dairy? That's not strictly true, is it. Although there are indeed great swathes of humanity for whom milk consumption doesn't feature, it is a fallacy that it is only Europeans and their descendants for whom it does.

Obviously in many areas the bulk of that milk will be from animals other than cows, but certainly not all.

MrsLion Tue 14-May-13 09:15:41

I really struggled with DS (dc3).  Screaming ALL the time, especially after feeding. Green, vinegar-smelling poos, sleeping only for 15 minutes at a time. Day and night. 

I was advised by a breast feeding counsellor to cut dairy from my diet. Everything- not even foods with a tiny amount in the small print.

The problem for me wasn't the calcium, I know what I should be eating to make up the deficit, but losing vast amounts of weight, feeling tired, fed-up and hungry all the time. I am naturally very slim, and eating a lot of other foods didn't seem to help.

Not to mention what a pain in the arse it is.

When this showed no improvement I was told to then cut out all gluten. Cue more weight loss, hunger and frustration. 

This went on until at 16 weeks I just thought fuck it- if there's something I'm eating causing all of this misery for ds and I, then I'm going to just stop BF and start FF. 

So I did. 

Turns out DS had severe silent reflux. Gaviscon at every feed, ranitidine 3 x a day and omeprazole 2 x a day was what was needed to control it.

So op yanbu, advice like this can absolutely discourage mothers from BFing.

Ragusa Tue 14-May-13 10:02:33

What discouraged me from BF my second child (I stopped at around 6 weeks) was that his incessant screaming, writhing, wriggling, and complete lack of sleep contributed to PND so severe that I was nearly hospitalised. Had I followed the Lactation Consultant's initial suggestion to cut out milk, I may well not have suffered that fate. As it was I stopped feeding and thereafter followed a very very long and distressing process of looking for a hydrolysate he would actually take.

My case was different to mrslion in that reflux meds were the first thing tried - omeprazole at 2 weeks of age - but they didn't work on their own.

TenaciousOne Tue 14-May-13 10:06:04

MrsLion My son suffers from silent reflux which is caused by dairy, we tried him on formula once as everyone said it would solve everything. Worse night of my life, well one of them...

DD probably should not have been breastfed at all, in retrospect. All bm contains lactose regardless of what the mother eats.

However, her intolerance isn't severe enough to cause failure-to-thrive, which is probably why it wasn't picked up at birth and why lactose intolerance was not suggested later.

ICBINEG Tue 14-May-13 12:46:03

noble just wanted to say YANBU and that I can't believe how many people on here are apparently too scientifically illiterate to understand your rationale.

I saw 2 out of 6 of my antenatal posse get sucked into the 'well it can't hurt and it might help' eliminating dairy cycle. Both ended up having no dairy for 6 months (during which time they constantly bitched about what an imposition it was, the expense, the inconvenience etc etc) and neither child did or has shown any actual evidence of dairy allergy or intolerance at any point. The are all happy cheese eaters...

What a fantastic waste of effort.

Beachcomber Tue 14-May-13 13:04:57

Of course eliminating dairy isn't going to work for every issue every baby has.

However for those of us for whom it did make a difference, we very often weren't helped by medical professionals. We either figured things out for ourselves or were helped by other parents. And that makes us want to share our experience when we see other parents struggling with a sick baby with symptoms that remind us of our own experience.

Dairy intolerance/allergy was little known about when I had my first child 9 years ago, hopefully things are better now and doctors and health visitors don't miss cases as much as they used to. Reflux is very common in babies with CMP allergy and IMO any thorough and responsible doctor would consider that before medicating.

ICB whether it helps or not, whether the children really did show signs or not, NOTHING done with the aim of helping your baby/child do better of feel better , can be described as a fantastic waste of time. Ever!!!

ICBINEG Tue 14-May-13 13:33:41

where are you nuts? If you try and fix the problem having wrongly assumed it is milk intolerance, then you are wasting time doing something unproductive when you could be doing something actually useful like getting a proper diagnosis.

Time spent on kids doing things that make their life worse rather than better is definitely time wasted.

trixymalixy Tue 14-May-13 13:45:01

ICB, I was at my doctor's surgery every week with my DS trying to get a diagnosis. I was dismissed as being neurotic. They weren't interested. Turned out my DS was multiply allergic. Thank fuck for the advice given on here otherwise we would have spent many more miserable months.

Well presumably if they have reached the point where that's the next step to try then they aren't getting anywhere with GPS. And no it won't hurt them or their baby. If they left it six sodding months with no improvements after removing dairy then that's down to stupidity, not down to wasting time thinking that dietary change was the answer. That's the point, you try if you don't see results then u stop or try something else. You don't leave it six months and do nothing else because you stopped the milk.

Do you think it's quicker to get a diagnosis of reflux than spending a week or two trying milk alternatives???

Try telling that to mums of babies who ended up on ivs because its all apparently normal.

trixymalixy Tue 14-May-13 13:48:01

Mrslion, my experience was the exact opposite to yours. All the doctor could come up with was reflux and reflux medication as a solution. I'm really really surprised that wasn't offered to you as a first port of call.

I bloody well wish I had lost weight on a dairy free diet!

Oldraver Tue 14-May-13 13:51:43

We dont need to eat dairy, its just that it is an easily available source of Calcium, many countries and cultures happily NOT eat dairy. It can be compensated for, though I do admitI prefer a nice bit of cheese to the alternatives.

noblegiraffe Tue 14-May-13 13:54:50

Caffeine, you are completely missing the point if you think they carried on for six months with no improvements. I bet they weren't stupid and did see improvements. Just as I did with my DD's blood in her nappy. The only difference was that I didn't actually eliminate dairy from my diet and therefore didn't misattribute the improvement to a dairy intolerance.

Lots of things with babies simply get better with time.

Yeah lots of things to get better in time. But you know what, when your baby is miserable , no ones sleeping , no ones listening and your baby is struggling day in day out, you don't say to yourself I won't try anything now cos it might or might not make things slightly harder in a few months time. You think- well they have suffered enough anything a worth a shot and I can re introduce later on.

noblegiraffe Tue 14-May-13 14:01:51

I think I've said a billion times on this thread that a careful analysis of a myriad of symptoms that point to CMPI is fine. Giving it a bash to try to clear nappy rash, not so much. Suggesting it to a mother who simply needs to be told that cluster feeding and fussy evenings are normal, unacceptable.

Well noble I'm happy for you that your wait and see approach paid off. As I am sure that for others it did too.

As I stated before, even if that advice was irrelevant to the op , if even one person saw it and it gave them the idea and it worked for them then why is it a bad thing that someone put it? If there's one less baby crying in pain right now as a result then that's a good thing!!!

And in the mean time while you wait for babies to show all the symptoms every time, others will continue to spot first potential
Signs in the hope that no one else has to go through what they did.

And you are just as free to post your suggestions.

The ops will read and make up their own minds.

noblegiraffe Tue 14-May-13 14:49:10

Why would you want to post advice that was irrelevant to the OP? Why on earth would that be a good idea? I try to post good advice and help the person asking for it, not post random other advice for the benefit of someone with a different issue who might just happen to be reading.

ICBINEG Tue 14-May-13 14:52:24

The point is surely the ratio of good to bad outcomes.

Someone proclaims: Try elliminating dairy

100 people on the thread read it and try it.

Chances are that no one on the thread actually has a DC with a dairy problem (if the numbers are correct at 1 in 500).

That leaves 100 mothers putting in extra effort (and it IS extra effort if you aren't used to it - and a massive extra effort if your family already have multiple allergy issues). Of these maybe 50% improve and 50% don't (should be random given it isn't working - but actually babies generally improve with time so the actual ratio will be much higher than this), so the improvers incorrectly assume the dairy is responsible and decide to keep it up for 6 months.

So that's 50 odd mums wasting 6 months of their effort on a treatment that isn't working when they could be spending that same effort on playing with their DC, getting a real diagnosis for the problem, redecorating the house...well anything that actually has a point.

So no I don't think that it is worth it. Even if we are super generous and just one baby on the thread is actually helped, then is that really worth 25 woman years of extra effort at meal times. cooking twice for each meal etc?

If instead they went to the GP and got an actual diagnosis then they could get better without 50 strangers suffering for it...

noblegiraffe Tue 14-May-13 15:06:39

Don't forget that with the extra effort comes extra expense and possible nutritional deficiency.

You forget that people aren't stupid. They don't do everything someone tells them.

As for expense well, supermarkets have own branded products .

And milk is not like oxygen. You can survive happily without it. It's something many people go two or three days without having and dont even realise. Yes it's in alot of products but alot of the time it's an unnecessary ingredient and is used to bulk out products which mean they are processed so its doing you a favour by not being able to be eaten anyway.

And no one ever stops seeking medical help.

You are also assuming that people don't re introduce.

ICBINEG Tue 14-May-13 15:42:51

Well I wouldn't consider my antenatal lot stupid either (all professionals) but they didn't reintroduce or seek medical guidance.

Just got stuck in, well I might as well carry on just in case, even though it's a massive ball ache.

So yeah...actually people ARE stupid when it comes to doing things people tell them to (and so very stupid at realising that they are only doing things because everyone else is) and even more stupid when it comes to believing their own personal experience can be used to identify successful outcomes of medicinal this thread is rife with evidence for.

just in case anyone is still missing the point, 'it got better after I did X' is NEVER evidence that X made it better. Not even if it happened twice in a row...or three times....if you get up to 20 I might just begin to believe you....unless actual medical evidence already exists to indicate that X doesn't work. In which case there is essentially no number high enough...

Ragusa Tue 14-May-13 15:46:13

Noblegiraffe, is there a personal reason you feel so strongly about this?

To the PP who said that the mothers of the babies now 'happily eating cheese' had been proved wrong....well, not necessarily. It is commonplace for babies to grow out of CMPI.

I really do not understand why this is causing such a palaver. It is simple to establish whether milk is causing the problem. Just reintroduce it and hey presto, you have a milk challenge. Obviously not if your baby has an immune-mediated allergy... Milk challenge is used in hospital settings to see whether a chold has outgrown CMPI.

I think possibly underlying this concern for giving mothers 'spurious advice' is contempt for the idea of intolerances generally, which is understandable if you have never had children with allergies or intolerances.

To clarify on the issue of prevalence rates of CMPI, our paed said there was no scientigic agreement but credible studies suggested a range of between 2 and 12% of babies.

I think part of the teason milk allergy is not more widely known is the historical influence of formula companies. A leaflet I picked up in onw of the many a&e trips with DS was about fussy feeding and was published bY SMA. And hey, guess what?!? No mention of CMPI being even an outside chance cause.

Ragusa Tue 14-May-13 15:50:08

ICBINEG that is a rather patronising comment. I for one am fully conversant with the difference between correlation and causality, ta very much hmm

I think those of you saying "go to the doctor for a diagnosis first" have NO idea what it is like! I accepted 3 different diagnosis' (reflux, toddler diarrhea and constipation) for my DDs lactose intolerance all of which were absolute fucking bollocks, presumably because GPs are general practitioners - they do not have in-depth knowledge on every medical subject. I've had other incidents recently where I've had to explain WHY I needed blood tests for a particular thing because the GP didn't happen to know anything about it, but was able to look it up and arrange what was needed once I had explained. It's not only allergies this can happen with.

If you are at the end of your tether and the GPs suggestions aren't working either there isn't actually any harm in doing a trial. Which is not just exclude X and see if your child is better, but also give them small amounts of X and see if they have any reaction. DDs dairy allergy was tested 3 times before I was confident that she had it. It's been tested a few lore times since then with the same reaction.

I was very sceptical to start with, so I wad very careful not to bias the results by telling her what I was doing and if she had no reaction to exposure I would have reintroduced no issue.

When I went to GP and explained what we had done and the results she was perfectly happy with how we had done things

noblegiraffe Tue 14-May-13 16:34:41

2-12% of babies might have CMPI but the study upthread said that only 4 in over 1000 babies were sensitive enough to it to exhibit symptoms based on the tiny amount that gets into breast milk. That's not very many at all, and certainly not a good reason to go recommending eliminating dairy to any breastfeeding mother with a fussy baby.

curryeater Tue 14-May-13 16:58:55

"because GPs are general practitioners - they do not have in-depth knowledge on every medical subject."

This is true, and it is why all this is so problematic - there are so many issues where people have to manage their own diagnoses according to the tools available to them.

BUT it still bothers me that we are so quick to say: Women! Limit Your Eating! It might not work but Go There First!
The tone on this thread bothers me too - the incredulous, outraged dismissal of the mother's nutrition, pleasure or convenience as of even the slightest relevance.

Beachcomber Tue 14-May-13 17:09:21

I can assure you that if you have a baby who is sick when you eat dairy, it is no hardship to give it up.

My pleasure was in seeing my baby stop suffering. My life became much more conveniant when I didn't spend half of it trailing round doctors with my sick baby and the other half dealing with mountains of laundry. It was also pretty convenient to be able to get some sleep and rest from worrying about my underweight failing to thrive baby.

I ate really well when I was breastfeeding and I actually think it is a bit offensive to all the women on this thread who gave up dairy to suggest that they were not nourishing themselves properly.

Dairy is not the be all and end all of nutrition and the average pint of supermarket milk of piece of cheese is a highly industrial food - and comes from the cow equivalent of the battery chicken.

Ragusa Tue 14-May-13 17:20:06

But the whole point made by many on this thread is that cutting out dairy does not necessarily equate to poor nutrition, loss of pleasure, or massive inconvenience. It can be a bit tricky sometimes but I can hand on heart say that it's far, far, preferable to living with a CMPI baby that's reacting to milk proteins. Now that`s going to lead to all three of the outomes you foresee.

I cannot see how this is a feminist issue. I tell you what is disempowering - not being able to leave the house because you're at risk of being covered in waves of acidy sick before you get to the end of the road!

WRT the 2-12% of babies stats.... very few babies in this country are EBF for very long at all. I think on very many of the threads where CMPI is mooted the baby is having supplemental formula.

I don't see incredulous, outraged dismissal anywhere on this thread. I just see people wiyh babies who have suffered, people who have consequently suffered themselves, hoping to save other mums and babies from a similar experience.

Bobyan Tue 14-May-13 17:28:14

Op you make it sound like dairy is something no one can live without, it's actually very simple. The very fact that this would be such an issue for you makes me think that you must eat a diet very heavy in dairy.
Maybe you should try to eat a more balanced diet.

curryeater Tue 14-May-13 17:33:11

This is crazy. No one is saying:

"if you are bfing, and eating dairy while you are do so is definitely making your baby ill, you must carry on doing it anyway."

No is even saying:

"if you are bfing, and eating dairy while you are do so might be making your baby ill, you must carry on doing it anyway, and make no effort to find out whether this is the case."

i am saying:

I am tired of hearing "cut this out" "cut that out" directed at women as a universal panacea

Bobyan Tue 14-May-13 17:41:23

Then don't, it's your choice.

trixymalixy Tue 14-May-13 17:48:40

I think possibly underlying this concern for giving mothers 'spurious advice' is contempt for the idea of intolerances generally, which is understandable if you have never had children with allergies or intolerances.

I think you've absolutely hit the nail on the head there Ragusa. I encounter this contempt fairly regularly. The attitude soon changes when you produce an epipen though.

I bet that my DS is not recorded as showing evidence of allergy symptoms while being breast fed, because my GP refused to believe it was possible.

It's really not that difficult to go dairy free, we eat out every week. Yes it is a bit more of a pain, but even my local corner shop has dairy free margarine and soya and rice milk now. You don't have to go to specialist shops, there is a wide variety of dairy free substitutes available in the supermarkets now.

noblegiraffe Tue 14-May-13 17:56:52

Hah, now I must have a problem with my diet! It's getting ridiculous. Some people are vegetarian, that doesn't mean I'd find it easy to give up meat. I like meat! I like cheese too. And the stuff in my cupboard that contains milk or casein or whey powder or sour cream or butter or....

That doesn't make me a bad person.

Bobyan Tue 14-May-13 18:00:47

Who said you're a bad person?

noblegiraffe Tue 14-May-13 18:02:54

There is a definite sense of superiority coming from certain dairy-free elements on this thread.

Bobyan Tue 14-May-13 18:10:06

And there's a definite sense of an in-superiority complex from one person in particular grin

noblegiraffe Tue 14-May-13 18:16:04

Really? It has been suggested that I didn't give up dairy because I found it all too difficult, then you suggest that if I don't want to give it up then I mustn't eat a balanced diet. Then we have the posters suggesting that a diet with milk in is unhealthy and milk is full of pus.

GirlOutNumbered Tue 14-May-13 18:53:22

People are allowed to give their opinions and stories about what worked for them. That's the greatness of a site like this.
Grown women can then decide whether to follow the advice or not. If it makes a difference for them, then great. If not, then what has been lost?

For some women and their children the difference is amazing and may never have been achieved just by going to the doctors and hearing 'oh it's colic' or 'well, they will grow out of it'.

I really fail to see what the problem is.

CoteDAzur Tue 14-May-13 20:04:39

Is "in-superiority" something like inferiority? wink

ICBINEG Tue 14-May-13 20:23:55

If you go on a thread about fussy babies, people will also swear blind that any number of colic cures helped..including many that medical science has found definitively not to perform beyond placebo...

But hey - ragusa isn't that presumably we must infer no one else on here is why the cast iron determination that infacol works...or gripe water...or homeopathy...or Reikki...or applied kinesiology...

What an enigma! I do SO hope someone can explain this puzzle.....


You worry me sometimes. You seem to be on a one person campaign to debunk absolutely everything all the time. How miserable your life must be if you never have any hope that anything can help your child. You got lucky with your child. That they managed to bread feed exclusively had no dietary requirements and somehow made it to nursery before figuring out the difference between girls and boys and whatever else.

I wonder , if you will be this smug and this scepticle and live with such hopelessness if you ever have a child that just doesn't fit your plans.

Be careful what you criticise because one day you might find yourself in similar positions and needing advice.

Breast feed - not bread feed.

Ragusa Tue 14-May-13 20:46:50

For the last bloody time, true CMPI/ CMPA does not result in 'a fussy baby'. It can be life-threatening. I think I am done here: it's all got a bit silly.

ICBINEG Tue 14-May-13 20:47:09

Heh - shows what you know...I was all over these boards asking for advice when DD had colic and I was contemplating suicide from the depths of PND.

If that is a perfect parenting experience then fuck me but I wouldn't want a bad one.

But actually that is why I am against all the pseudo advice. If I had followed the crap advice I would never have resolved DD's colic issues. If I had followed the other crap advice on PND I might not be here annoying you now.

Happily I have a science degree that enabled me to pick out the statistical wheat from the chaff with relative easy....

But just because some people have the tools to understand how RCT's work doesn't mean everyone does - as MN provides daily evidence of. For this reason anyone with a conscience should be doing what they can to limit the flow of misinformation based on that good old heady mixture of anecdote and old wives tale.

Ragusa Tue 14-May-13 20:51:55

ICBINEG homeopathy, reiki, and even infacol - load of old shite. But on CMPI/A I am afraid your science is, frankly, rubbish.

I really am going now.

trixymalixy Tue 14-May-13 21:01:43

Oh look, there's that contempt for intolerances and allergies you were talking about. Putting it in the same category as reiki and homeopathy hmm. That's what this is all about really isn't it?

It's not really any surprise though given how woefully misinformed GPs are about allergies and breast feeding that someone with a big standard science degree hasn't the first fucking clue.

trixymalixy Tue 14-May-13 21:02:36


ICBINEG Tue 14-May-13 21:05:36

WTAF I have no contempt of CMPI - my nephew has it and has already suffered anaphylaxis once!

I do not anywhere compare it to homeopathy. I was mentioning those things as things that people on MN will suggest as solutions to problems as evidence that not everyone has the tools to understand medical trials or to realise that their personal experience is not reliable evidence.

If you actually read posts - it helps.

noblegiraffe Tue 14-May-13 21:05:45

Ragusa, if you agree that a CMPI doesn't simply result in a fussy baby, then you agree with my OP that people shouldn't be coming on simple fussy baby threads and recommending dairy elimination?

ICBINEG Tue 14-May-13 21:06:41

Seriously I didn't say ANYTHING about CMPI.

Except that you can't diagnose it by stopping dairy and seeing if your baby seems less fussy. I think we all agree on that right?

I'm sorry you had such a bad experience icb I wouldnt wish that on anyone . People who post advice do so with the best intentions. We are so lucky to be here, if we have a question or need a hand to hold there are hundreds here who are there to do it. No one has a definitive answer for anything. We can only post what we found helped us and thankfully it sometimes works for others and honestly sometimes changes lives.

I would trust other mums over drs on nearly every occasion. Drs dish out their idea and we have to go home and hope to god it works and meanwhile deal with the fall out if it doesn't.

I get, being angry at drs for missing things , sometimes one drs opinion is what stands between you getting or not getting what you know you need.

But I don't get being so angry at people who are merely trying to help.

Maybe then you didn't get what you were looking for back then but maybe one day you will. And that's from complete strangers who sometimes stay up for hours talking to posters. Who check in on them the moment they wake up. Posters who have on occasion gone out if their way to source formula or nappies or food and driven miles to deliver it. All that while the op is still waiting on a call back from the dr.

And you know what sometimes despite science saying other wise, despite research apparently proving things, sometimes just sometimes it can actually work.

Sorry things got so shit for you, I hope they have improved and that you are happy!

In reverse to your situation, if I had listened to the drs I'd have had that year of misery too. My baby would have had medication she didn't need. I'd have spent months thinking it was all my fault I couldn't make her happy.if it hasn't been for lurking on the Internet, for threads here coming up on google, and my gut instinct that I refused to let go of things would have been alot different.

We might not always be right. We might be way off at times but so is science and the medical profession. Nothing is ever fail safe there are always anomalies.

trixymalixy Tue 14-May-13 21:42:48

Noble, what Ragusa meant by that statement was that the consequences can be greater than simply a fussy baby. The baby can suffer damage to their gut, restricted growth, they could go into anaphylactic shock (as one mum who posts on here's baby did) as reactions can worsen with every exposure.

ICB elimination diets are used to diagnose intolerances and allergies.

Your nephew must have CMPA as anaphylaxis is not a symptom of CMPA.

Perhaps you didn't intend to infer that advice to cut out dairy is as much pseudo science as reiki etc, but thats what your post reads as to me and I'm guessing Ragusa did too given her reaction.

trixymalixy Tue 14-May-13 22:18:51

*Your nephew must have CMPA as anaphylaxis is not a symptom of CMPI.

Joiningthegang Wed 15-May-13 00:41:18

Ice - my gp said the test for cmpi was to stop all dairy and see if things are different in 6 weeks - they were. Thanks doc

Beachcomber Wed 15-May-13 08:36:33

I think that is the crux of it really - the only way to find out is to eliminate dairy and (if you are brave) reintroduce it. The only way of finding out if it will help your baby is to do it. So the only advice one can give others is to try it.

It would be great if there was a simple reliable lab test. But there isn't.

I'm sure if there were people would be advising others to use it.

ICBINEG Wed 15-May-13 08:53:25

hmm there are simple tests...but they are indeed bloody hard to get the doctors to do. Presumably because they cost so much and the chances of your baby actually having it are so low.

My problem with the 'try it and see' advice is that false positives are rife and being a parent is seriously hard at times. The more things you are doing because you did it once and it seemed to work and you can't bear to risk the backwards step can stack up and stack up....till you are exhausted with all the individually little distortions to your life that are all actually having no actual positive effect at all.

Saying, if everyone did X and it helped even one baby it would be worth it is just so very untrue. Everyone doing X even though it will make a difference to only 1: million babies is a HUGE price to pay. And some people are dangerously close to not coping at all. One more pointless meaningless intervention might tip them over.

All I would really like to see is an acknowledgement that 'try and and see - it can't hurt can it' is a truly incorrect and unhelpful statement.

In return I will and have acknowledged that I have had tremendously helpful advice on here when I was too low to access the GP.

I don't think that's the case though - as I say I had 3 false diagnosis from GPs, each time I did what the doctor advised and convinced myself things were getting a bit better - but of course they really didn't and in a few months I was back ay the Dr asking if they were sure this was normal, or asking about something else that had been suggested. If it doesn't really work you can't convince yourself that it does for very long.

Dairy-free actually worked. The very simple proof is that I am no longer washing 4-5 pairs of diarrhea pants a day. Before when I tried things I might have a few less, or some days were okay, or the poo was a different consistency but it never actually stopped the problem.

I know that is a bit different from 'fussy' babies, which is more subjective, but I honestly don't see allergy advice being given to mothers of fussy babies on MN unless they have asked. AND for me it is worth bearing in mind that those first signs of a very vomity/pooey baby weren't for DD, just in the range of normal as I was constantly told, but actually the first signs that something was wrong.

Ragusa Wed 15-May-13 09:21:37

hmm there are simple tests...but they are indeed bloody hard to get the doctors to do. Presumably because they cost so much and the chances of your baby actually having it are so low.

hmmmm, no there aren't, actually. I think you are thinking of the RAST and ELISA blood tests, ICBINEG. Ask any paedeatric allergist and they will tell you that the number of false negatives generated by RAST is very high, unless the baby has a severe immune-mediated (IgE) allergy. Patch, scratch, or skin-prick testing are not usually used to identify CMPI/A.

noblegiraffe Wed 15-May-13 09:35:38

TeWi, if you are talking about pants, then you are presumably talking about cutting out dairy for a child who is on solids.
This is completely different to advice to cut out dairy to a mother who is ebf. It's also different to advice to a formula feeding mother to try switching milks.

Remember, only 4 in 1000-odd babies in that study were sensitive enough to dairy for it to have an effect when only fed breast milk.

And maybe for you a vomiting baby was a sign of CMPI, but for most other babies it won't be. Babies vomit because the valve between the stomach and oesophagus is weak, this is common, and not necessarily a symptom of something more sinister.

And also the statistics of confirmed cases may be low. But most of us on this thread are the lucky ones. Because we figured it out. It may have taken many people months or even years but they did figure it out. There are many many more who have it except they have been turned away and told its normal for these things to be happening. They put up with months and months of hell til either the kid eventually grows out of it or the poor child just learns to deal with it. It becomes a part of life. Once the baby is past the formula stage there's nothing a dr can do. My dd 14/15 months before she got to see a dietitian. All the weaning came from me the drs had no clue at all. I didn't bother them with it. She only remained on the milk, not because her case was confirmed but because the dr at the check up felt tht as she was doing so well she wouldn't rock the boat. I coulda lost it there and then and been straight back to square one had the dr insisted on investigating further befor continuing to prescribe the milk. There are people walking around today with horrible gut problems, growth problems and all sorts of other health issues as their easy to treat milk intolerance just wasn't picked up. So statistically it's low, but there are many many more undiagnosed cases. Normalising things is what's unhelpful. Suggestions that stand a chance of working are at least something to try and something that gives mums hope that someone is actually listening to them.

There is no test for intolerances. It's try it and see. I that's unhelpful then what do you make of the " suck it and see" or "it's normal" attitude of drs.

curryeater Wed 15-May-13 09:43:26

"For the last bloody time, true CMPI/ CMPA does not result in 'a fussy baby'."

Exactly - which is why "oh why not cut out dairy" is not necessarily the best place to start with a "fussy baby"

noble my DD is lactose intolerant, she has been since birth, it was diagnosed at 4 because so many people believe so vocally that you shouldn't consider a baby might have allergies/intolerances - she has been ill for FOUR YEARS because of that attitude.

She is not even that statistically rare because there is a family history and I am from a country with a much higher lactose intolerance rate than the UK.

So, actually I do feel quite cross ay the attitude that it can only be harmful to try exclusion diets with babies because it is not true - in our case DD should not have been breastfed at all and if I had had a GP who was an expert at that stage DD would gave had a vastly better start in life.

noblegiraffe Wed 15-May-13 09:54:18

Caffeine, I am not talking about children on solids, or children on formula. Children who in their diet are being exposed to high levels of dairy. I am talking (as I thought was clear from my OP) about breastfeeding mothers being advised to cut out dairy from their diet on the off chance that their fussy baby is one of the exceptionally few for whom it might make a difference. Not simply babies with a list of classic CMPI symptoms either.

Beachcomber Wed 15-May-13 09:56:06

There are no simple reliable lab tests. The blood tests are notoriously unreliable. Our allergist says 'a positive is a positive and a negative is meaningless' to us.

My DD tests negative to avocado for example but is very sick and comes out in hives if she eats them. She also reacts if avocado is rubbed on her skin but her blood test has been negative 3 times.

I fail to see the harm in cutting out dairy for a few weeks. I think in a lot of cases the difference in the baby is so big that it is very unlikely to be simple coincidence.

noblegiraffe Wed 15-May-13 09:56:34

TeWi, from what I understand, babies in the UK suffering lactose intolerance are exceptionally rare. With your background and your family history you are a special case from which blanket recommendations should not be made.

Beachcomber Wed 15-May-13 10:00:33

Nobegiraffe I think the number of children with some sort of intolerance is hugely underestimated - in part because there are no reliable tests.

Intolerances can manifest in so many different ways and it is pretty well impossible to make a diagnosis without doing an elimination diet.

If all babies presented typically then there would be more diagnosis of cmpi. It goes un noticed because crying is normal , endless discomfort is "colic" constant vomiting is normal or reflux if ur lucky enough that drs take that concern seriously. Arched backs are wind, no sleeping is normalised every symptom of cmpi in breast fed or ff babies is normalised by every hcp and most the people you meet.

Sure yeah some people have fussy babiesbut sometimes it's more. Babies are hospitalised before anyone takes anything seriously. And even then sometimes the parents are made out to be the problem. No one actually believes that the baby struggles.

noblegiraffe Wed 15-May-13 10:01:03

Beachcomber, my baby had blood in her stools for weeks. I could have well cut out dairy and seen an improvement. But it would have still been a coincidence.

My DS was a prolific vomiter, I owned shares in Persil and hundreds of muslins. I could have cut out dairy and seen an improvement. That would have been a coincidence too, as he grew out of it at 3-4 months old.

Babies change quite rapidly anyway. Changes that could easily be put down to unlikely to make a difference interventions that the unnecessary intervention then claims the credit for. Babies being sensitive to dairy in breastmilk is rare.

A d actually they are "fussy babies" dd never wanted to feed cos it made her feel shit she would squirm and refuse the bottle at times. On occasion when she did drink she would start grunting and straining half way through and I'd have to try really hard to get her to take more. Of course after shed been ill and on drips and her weight plummeted the little food I did get down her did make her gain weight because she was actually eating as opposed to receiving rations or IV nutrition. So of course the weight gain meant that I was being silly and nothing was wrong and her being fussy was cos she needed more milk. hmm

That's the thing on MN though it's easy to assume everyone has a similar background to you - I do which is why I always consider that those asking advice might not be white British and that what is rare for British babies might not be for them.

ICBINEG Wed 15-May-13 10:24:11

rag once again I might be being misled by Dnephs experience. He has had the skin prick test for EVERYTHING.

Although most of the pricks were rendered unreadable due to the massive blotch covering most of his arm caused by the milk test.

Cloverer Wed 15-May-13 10:24:15

Lactose intolerance in babies is very rare/serious in any country though.

noblegiraffe Wed 15-May-13 10:26:11

Caffeine, your baby refusing a bottle suggests that she was fed formula?

And far to many things are ignored or misdiagnosed cos statistics say its "unlikely" people have died as a result. Fortunately many things aren't serious but discounting possibilities because of statistics can be dangerous.

Yes she was bottle fed. Had she been breasted id have cut out dairy straight away and seen an improvement. I don't regret bottle feeding as that was what was right for us. In her case given I don't eat alot of dairy anyway she may well have done much better pretty quickly. I still have experience though in just how hard getting people to listen can be and the lack of knowledge and help available would have been just the sane either way. And I tried three other formulas so no it wasn't a reaction to formula! Once on the right stuff she thrived.

Cloverer only if it causes failure to thrive - this was the case with my father. And there is Jo pecking way my grandmother would have been grinding soya beans to make her own formula to Drs recipe if he hadn't been very seriously affected.

DDs is not as bad as that, but it was bad, and she did lose weight at times.