the woman that killed herself over the bedroom tax(165 Posts)
one of the politicians saying on the news she must have had other probs to have done this?
another government excuse to fob off what theyve done?
womans son said she was fine before BT came into fruition. he said its the people in big offices and big houses that have done this, and she said in her suicide note its their fault.
Im really struggling too with this BT , Im sure lots of people are, someone on the news said its not fair especially on the disabled who've had adaptations made, (we're in that category).
so....another fob off by the government, or do you think theyll stop this anytime soon?
She probably did have other problems.
But that's the thing - most people affected by the bedroom tax are vulnerable, most of them will have other problems.
So sad her poor mind must have been in an utter termoil. This will the first of many suicides though. There is only so much that a human being can take. xx
Someone who commits suicide (or plans to) is likely to have some disposition in their psychological makeup towards suicide.
most people affected by the bedroom tax are vulnerable, most of them will have other problems.
I didn't read the thread the other day about the country not going to pot because I knew I'd end up fuming about it when things like this are going on.
with you, numbum.
and vulnerable does not neccessarily mean mentally unstable.
to which my reply is ''your job as a government is to support vulnerable citizens not increase their burden until it is intolerable''.
People with healthy minds do not commit suicide over £14 a week or whatever it is.
Of course she had other problems. This may have been the proverbial straw that broke the camels back, but it wasn't the sole cause.
I really dislike use of the phrases 'most vulnerable' 'poorest'. Where is the line between most vulnerable and just vulnerable? 'most vulnerable' could be one person. As a society we should assist all vulnerable people. We should assist the 'poor' not just the poorest.
That said this government are only interested in helping the richest and most powerful. The poorer, the more vulnerable you are the less interested they are in doing anything other than castigating you and punishing you.
and yy to what waffly said too. what Ive been thinking.
clouds when you really literally havent got £14 a week.?
on top of rent/mortgage, food/water/gas/electricity/travel expenses/clothing (even though you can be as frugal as you possibly can) £14 a week is like been asked to pay a million pounds a week.
Exactly as Waffly Versatile said: to which my reply is ''your job as a government is to support vulnerable citizens not increase their burden until it is intolerable''.
We are supposed to be a civilised society, yet this government continues to demonise and blame the poor and vulnerable for the financial crisis, placing the austerity burden disproportionately on those least able to manage it.
cloudsandtrees - it may only be £14 a week to you - in fact I think it was £20 - but to her it was the difference between having a home and being thrown out, between surviving and drowning. Can you really not see that if you don't have a spare grand a year and no way of getting one, and the government are going to throw you out of your house, it's terrifying?
It is tragic, and this scheme does seem to have been very badly implemented, but where do the govt draw the line.. a single person living in a three bedroom house when there are families overcrowded in one and two bedroom flats.. I would find it hard to believe that there was no swap available for her if she couldnt afford to stay where she was.
I do think there should be some better service in place to sort this out.
advice on suicide
Suicide is very complex, there will be other factors at play. It's always very sad tho.
It's not just the extra money she had to find, it's the labelling of people as 'scroungers' this government turning people against the poor and blaming them for their situations. All that stuff would have affected her self esteem.
Poor woman, it's such a sad situation that could have been avoided.
There is a shortage of 1 bed properties
People in rent arrears are not allowed to swap anyway
400,000 of the 600,000 affected are disabled or have disabled children - not easy to just move even if there was somewhere available to go
100,000 of those live in specially adapted houses so impossible for them to move
Maybe we could build more (truly) social housing, council housing. We managed it before.
Young adults under a certain age should move back home rather than claim benefits according to this government, even if their home is abusive. But any parent living in social housing who would like to keep a room in case their child needs to come home must pay £14 for the privelige, even if there is nowhere for them to move to.
This government are attacking the poor from every angle.
I hope they all end their days in a damp studio flat eating out of bins. (the government, not the current poor)
thanx cloverer. and on a personal note, when we moved into our place (just DC and I) the '3rd' room was classed as a boxroom (barely room for a box even) and not a bedroom.
suddenly, to get more from us its a bedroom.
was adapted for disabilities, and now being told i stay and pay (i cant afford the £19.a week, plus now council tax) or go.
trying in vain to swap house but no one wants this and those who HAVE looked round have said same, 'this isnt a 3rd bedroom, its a large cupboard'. but council/local politicain/gov wont accept that.
I can see that, and I do understand that it would be terrifying. And for her, maybe it was too terrifying. But I don't think it would have been that terrifying for someone who had no other problems whatsoever.
It's really sad that someone has committed suicide but I can't help feeling for the driver whom she stepped in front of.
It was an ordinary day for him/her and next thing, someone has stepped in front of your vehicle and are now dead in front of you.
"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness; annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery". Ch. Dickens, David Copperfield.
I don't support the bedroom tax but I also don't think it's worth killing yourself over, obviously. To me it's like the nurse who couldn't cope with a couple of djs ringing up - makes no sense and there must be much bigger problems at work, otherwise half the population would be under a bus on a bad day.
If the whole story were read rather than headlines you'd see she had a debilitating illness plus the council had offered to rehouse her but she didn't like the location, and given her £2K to move properties, but she spent it.
much more at play than the headlines suggest.
Very very sad to think that someone killed themselves over money. Perhaps it was the last straw or just the thought of moving was frightening and more than she could cope with.
I think some of the fault lies with the whole system of people being allowed to rent a house (through the council or a housing association) which is the right size for their family at the time and no expectation by either side that they will ever be expected to move even though the children grow up and leave home. You wouldn't rent a house privately and expect to live there for decades. I don't think people ought ever to have been allocated a council house as a 'forever home'. It's not practical and with council housing having been sold off, it means there aren't enough houses for later generations.
I think personally, there must be other factors. I am sorry but the lasy in question could have moved, with all due respect we had months notice of these changes, she had more than enough time to move. The government or local council would have helped her down size. I read somewhere it was over an extra 20pound a week rent. I mean honestly,
If she really didn't want to leave her family home that badly her family could of helped her out, or you know a job. I honestly thing the government are not wholly to blame, people don't just step infront of moving traffic without some fore of for warning.
On a side note, I feel for her family, and for the poor driver who was dragged into this event unwillingly, and will have to live with the guilt for the rest of his/her life.
Most people can't move though Louise.
hi my aunties the same they say if it has a window then its a bedroom but if no window then you can argue the fact that its only a cupboard.hope you get it sorted.
We don't live in the UK. Does the bedroom tax apply to all properties or just those in the council housing system? It seems to make sense to tax people for bedrooms they are not using if they are availing of public housing. Those houses could shelter larger families. Can they not take in other singles waiting for council housing?
Twenty pounds a week may as well be a thousand pounds a week if you haven't got it. 20 X 52= £1,040 a year. That's a significant amount of money. It was clearly impossible for her to find it, otherwise she wouldn't have killed herself.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
What would make sense would be building more council housing. There is not enough, no matter how much you shuffle people around like cattle.
What cloudsandtrees said. I agree with the general sentiment that this government seems to leave no stone unturned in its quest to humiliate and brutalise the poor and vulnerable but this is melodramatic. No one kills themself purely over a change to their benefit allowance. It may have been the final straw but much as I dislike this government it's a bit much to lay this at their door.
Please read the full story (or at least what Holly) wrote a few posts earlier. This is a very sad story but you can't lay it at the Govt's door (and I'm no lover of this Govt)
My goodness me likeitorlumpit. I am not here to make enemies but I do honestly think your comment on this subject is way out of line. Yes we all have problems and some of us can just get on with it but we all have different coping mecanisms.
Changing the subject here but all those poor children who have took their own lives over bullying do they have themselves to blame? absolutly not. Please think about the people that you are hurting when writing such narrow minded comments. Like I said there is only so much pressure that can put on a person. I really think upsetting views on such a delicate subject are best left to ones self. I cannot believe that a parent can be so insensitive.
Suicide isn't selfish it can seem like the only way out for some people. No body ever wants to ill themselves they just want the pain and hurt to go away. Why not try opening your heart and being a bit more sympathetic. I promise it will not hurt. x
''She was visited by officials, who told her she would be charged for any repairs to her property.
That would whittle away the £2,000 she had been offered by the council to move home. It meant Stephanie had to strip wallpaper and lift carpets herself. She also had to mend her back fence.
And they failed to find a suitable property for her the bungalow they offered was a 30-minute walk from a bus stop and miles from her family and friends.
So Stephanie was trapped in a house she couldnt afford.''
I read what Holly wrote "If the whole story were read rather than headlines you'd see she had a debilitating illness plus the council had offered to rehouse her but she didn't like the location, and given her £2K to move properties, but she spent it.
much more at play than the headlines suggest."
She had a debilitating illness that she was coping with until the benefit changes. The council had offered her one property miles from her family and friends. She had to spend the money given her to relocate on repairs to the property she was in. Indeed more than the headlines suggest - but she was coping with her illness until faced with moving away from everything that made life bearable. I have read of other people killing themselves because of the benefit changes, there will be more. If you don't kill yourself you can starve, as far as the government are concerned.
likeitorlumpit that's one of the most ignorant, ill-informed and uncompassionate posts I have ever read on this site.
You come across as - to be blunt - a rather stupid, at the very least thoughtless, person.
"It meant Stephanie had to strip wallpaper and lift carpets herself. She also had to mend her back fence."
Where were the son and daughter? Why did they not help with this?
There is a lot more to this story than the sensationalist headlines.
I'm sure our esteemed leaders will consider it one less parasite feeding off the taxpayer.
Just getting that in before some right wing twat does.
Personally I'm saddened deeply and wish it hadn't come to this. Over 11,000 people have died since ATOS began 'fit for work' assessments.
Welfare Reform is killing people.
This isn't welfare reform. This is welfare removal.
Oh, and our BT 'contribution' was 'only' £31.25 a week.
From £58 careers allowance and £60 income support. That's significant. The rest of the money, as we're endlessly reminded, is for the kids. Misappropriation of that would be severely dealt with - yes we do get threatening letters to that effect.
That was until we were saved by the severely disabled child legislation. Many with adult disabled family members aren't so fortunate.
The government wants to punish the poor.
The bedroom tax doesn't save enough money for it to be a financially driven decision. It's a matter of principle for them.
Therefore, a better way of pursuing this aim would be to incentivise swaps and downgrading. Same result, much less suffering.
But that's not what they did, is it. They want to make the poor suffer.
There is another thread on this
Of course there are other issues involved. The lady was offered alternative accommodation and a grant to move.
I hate the way this has become politicised. It is a family matter, not a political issue
<disclaimer> I have never voted tory and I disapprove of this government's housing policy
Why are people saying its the paper politicising it when it CLEARLY STATED IN HER NOTE the reason why she killed herself. Are we really going to choose to disbelieve suicide notes to fit the "bash the poor" agenda now.
If it was a suicide note written by a woman who was suffering domestic abuse would you disbelieve it and blame her or blame the person abusing her. Would you say the paper reporting that was "using it to politicise womens issues" !!!
Believe me with the cuts to womens services i really hope we dont see things like this but unfortunately i think we will. And if "(God forbid) we do i bet people on the thread that may start on here afterwards WONT be gaslighting or trying to rewrite history. Because that only seems to happen on threads like this where benefits are involved!
Likeitorlumpit you sound very discompassionate. Your turn will come one day, it always does to those who cannot conceivably be in the real world.
Btw, you'll probably want to namechange by then.
Oh goodness, not again!
Firstly, to equate this governments ham-fisted attempts to reduce the budget deficit with domestic violence is grotesque and unfair.
She may well have said that the government was to blame, but she was clearly of unsound mind (as the Coroner will undoubtedly find).
When people are severely depressed they take things out of proportion. That's what happens. Highly regrettable.
when my FIL committed suicide he had blamed it on his cars...
suicide is not rational..
I AM NOT equating it with DV I am simply saying that if benefits WERNT involved in this case quite a lot of people on this thread would be humming a different tune.
I am not being grotesque OR unfair. Im simply pointing out the gaslighting going on on these threads with regards to the suicide note and saying that this gaslighting wouldnt be happening if this case didnt involve benefits.
I just used DV as an analogy because CUTS ARE HAPPENING TO THOSE SERVICES TOO. And (God forbid) it wont lead to suicides there but i think it may well do
Just posting this here to save Wuldric the bother as its what she said to me on the news board on the thread about the same subject and as shes waiting for a call....
WuldricMon 13-May-13 00:07:18
You are tired and irrational. Who has said anything about claiming benefits on this thread apart from you? What, you perceive a lack of empathy (not actually true, just a lack of willingness to blame the government) and you leap to the conclusion that this lack of empathy has arisen because the lady in question was on benefits? Nonsense.
Get to bed. It's late. I would myself but I am waiting for a call.
Note the ordering me around and telling me to get to bed. And after gaslighting too.
Yup that's me. Can't stop controlling and gaslighting and randomly ordering people on the internet to DO MY BIDDING.
Don't be silly, and really do get to bed old thing.
"If the whole story were read rather than headlines you'd see she had a debilitating illness plus the council had offered to rehouse her but she didn't like the location, and given her £2K to move properties, but she spent it"
And where were her family in this? Her death is very sad, but what is disgraceful is the attempt to make political capital out of personal tragedy.
thats my opinion, you got yours , so as my name says like it or lump it
But she had family! Don't family help each other out in circumstances like this?
There are all sorts of options they could have explored. Including: some of the family that had moved out could have moved back in to help with the expenses, or some of the family could have helped her do the repairs that needed doing before she moved to the new home, or the family club together and find the twenty pounds a week between them, or if (as in some authorities is allowed, certainly in the extensive leaflet our LA has produced for people in such circumstances it is ) she found a lodger or someone in similar circumstances and they cover the otherwise impossible budget between them.
So while this is a tragic story of the "straw that broke the camel's back" it's not an inevitable outcome (especially with family support).
And where were her family in this? Her death is very sad, but what is disgraceful is the attempt to make political capital out of personal tragedy.
This is a fairly typical, and understandable, responce when something like this happens. Anybody with mental health issues has a serious prolem, harms themselves or others and then the world and it's mother starts pointing the finger at the family.
The lae, the state, the agencies related to all aspects of the life of a mentally unwell person DO NOT provide the right or the tools for family members to manage the bahavoir, reactions and acceptance of treatment a mentally unwell person may require.
In many cases family members are actively thwarted in their attempts to help their loved one becuase until a threshold is crossed their family member, no matter their impaired state, is considered legally competant and attmepts to force them into a situation where they can be kept safe can result in criminal charges against the family.
Please also bear in mind that years of being a family member trying againt all the thwarting to help somebody who is having serious issues emotionally or mentally is extremely wearing. People give up. People no longer see red flags becuase they have become so numb from the constant stress and exhustion that they no longer register as high alert.
If the genub ant family members to be held responsible, legally or morally, first they must be prepared to have a long, difficult and ethically complex conversation on a national level as per the placement of the bar for competence and the degree to which they are prepared to support investment in mental health agencies, facilities and servces.
Please don't blame the family. They already tend to get the shitty end of a very big stick that they get beaten with when the person is ill, harms themselves or others or unintentionally makes their family's life a real hard endless slog.
Most likely her family has been fighting againts the odds for a very long time. You do 't need to beat them over the head with the above stick to indice more guilt. They will be doing that to themselves already, even if they have been hoop jumping for a decade and getting nowhere fast as the system undermines all their effortd.
people who commit suicide have only their self to blame no one held a gun to their head , they selfishly did it its their responsibilty no one elses , everyone has problems but most people sort them out instead of passing the buck
People with mental health problems may perceive things differently, but the fact is that if she perceived that it was the government's fault, then it was the governments fault. Obviously not the case with all things, but in this particular case.
an interesting read on perceptions
I'm not blaming anyone. This was clearly a very troubled woman. But If one is going to point the finger of blame at a single cause (the government/LA) , you're on a hiding to nothing. This is a very complex issue, and "she committed suicide because of the bedroom tax" is too simplistic an answer.
It's interesting that suicide has increased in the disabled population since this government took over.
everyone has problems but most people sort them out instead of passing the buck
Sucidal intent or sensation is just a tad more complex than "everybody has problems" sort of problems.
It requires a level of mental health support that doesn't exist. And other than jumping up and down when a tragedy occurs, there is not much interest amoung the gen pub to invest more in MH services to avoid future occurances.
It is just much cheaper to shove the burden of responsibility on unequipped family members, and then blame them when they are unable to produce the sort of top notch round the clock professional care that aids a reduction in the number of tragic outcomes.
"but the fact is that if she perceived that it was the government's fault, then it was the governments fault"
the article in the Sun said the women had never claimed disability benefits so it sounds like she was not seeking help.
this could be a symptom of her MH problems but this does not mean anyone is to blame.
people who commit suicide have only their self to blame no one held a gun to their head , they selfishly did it its their responsibilty no one elses , everyone has problems but most people sort them out instead of passing the buck
Are you having a fucking laugh?? That has to be one of the most ignorant and ridiculous comment I have ever read on hear.
My usually level headed BIL committed suicide 3 weeks ago today because he thought he was ill and was too shy to go to the doctors......he was the most selfless person ever and in his mind he wasn't passing the buck, he took the only option he could see....at the time!!
That is a totally twattish thing to say and I hope you are never affected by suicide to realise what a dick you sound.
I think with this sort of thing, it's never really about the money. It's about the feeling of helplessness, of being a random statistic and of being seen to be an enemy of the state, as it were, and having no rights.
It's also about being asked to move from a place you are familiar with and where you have support.
Mainly I think it is about feeling as though other people - council officials, who have to abide by a policy - having absolute control over something as important as your home. It makes people feel very unsafe, it is dehumanising. Like no one is actually protecting you.
Of course there are issues with overcrowding and over large housing, but this isn't the answer. They need to focus on other ways of solving the problem.
People coming IN to homes should be subject to limits on the number of bedrooms, but if they have lived there for many many years then something different needs to be organised. Or yes you will end up with thise who feel utterly desperate.
Imagine being forced to move house against your will, at a couple of months' notice, to somewhere you're not familiar with and don't want to be? Imagine that scenario but with no husband to support you/make it bearable, no one in fact to rely on, no one to help.
They may as well have threatened to dump her in the middle of the atlantic ocean.
Iain Duncan Smith is proud his 'reforms' are getting people off benefits.
What he doesn't tell you is its no more people 'coming off benefits' than you would have seen or expected to see before the
It is very sad that this woman commited suicide. My answer is the government should not enforce this in local authorities until they can prove they can provide smaller properties.
I heard a Tory MP saying again that people could take in lodgers. I'm sorry but who wants someone strange staying in your home, what checks can be done which is fool proof anyway. I think people should be given an amnesty of say 2 years and offered similiar properties with less bedrooms in the same locality.
It's not fair for someone to be offered a high rise flat when they had a garden before etc. I know in private renting it is more expensive so that is probably not an option for many.
The only solution I can see is if they convert a load of three bedroom houses into 2 flats which will still give them a little garden.
betty calm down , everyone has an opinion , and if it doesnt match yours you call people names , very mature
You're a sick piece or work, likeitorlumpit. And obviously have no ounce of understanding or compassion surrounding subjects such as suicide.
People don't kill themselves just 'because'. They kill themselves because someone might as well be holding a gun to their head - there simply isn't another option.
I really feel for this woman, but do also think that the bedroom tax is obviously the straw that broke the camels back. I live in a housing association property, and I personally find the idea of moving terrifying. You have no choice over the area or type of property, and some of the areas are really rough. The sort of places I would be frightened to walk around to be honest. I'm currently pregnant with our first child and we have decided to stay in our one bedroom property until we can afford to rent privately. The whole process of trying to move, with the uncertainties it holds is too much to take and really scares me. I just thank goodness that we are not in a position where we don't have the choice like this poor woman.
Some of the comments about suicide on this thread have really shocked me. I understand that it's a difficult subject, but do you really think if someone could see any other option that they would kill themselves?
you know nothing about me or my life , so thanks for your opinion but i dont agree , see not hard to disagree and not get nasty is it
I don't think suicide is inherently selfish but I think how she went was.
she did not consider the safety of the lorry driver, other road users or long term effects on those involved.
it might have been her illness that made her selfish or just that she was selfish. but we don't know one way or another.
it is also odd as her son was an HGV driver according to the Sun.
I'm wondering where her family was in this as well - not for support of her mental illness (that's complex) but why couldn't they help her carry out her house repairs?
The fact that she couldn't actually use the 2K that the council gave her to move (which seems a pretty generous moving allowance to me, by the way) is the fault of her son. I have absolutely no DIY training and I could strip wallpaper, pull up carpet, and repair a fence.
Agreed this is sensationalist. This story doesn't make the bedroom tax any more or less right/wrong. It's just a red herring.
Such a lovely attitude. So knowledgeable on such a complex issue.
Someone felt bleak enough about life to kill themselves. They were sucked up enough in that void they chose to end their lives.
I really hate when people then start shouting around things like "she should have thought about other people". The only thing she was thinking about was ending her own pain. Selfish, maybe, but have some respect for her as a human being, for the despair she felt, even if you can't respect the way she chose to die.
everyone has an opinion
Yes. They do. That doesn't stop it being one that is ill informed and almost designed to cause pain to people already dealing with grief and the long lasting emotional scars associated with losing a loved one to suicide.
You ask a woman in the early stages of grief and loss to "calm down". If that is reasonable and esay to do then how much more so it is to take a moment to consider the impact of words before spewing them on a thread that is likely to attract the attention of people with very raw emotions.
If she had a disability which prevented her from working, why wasn't she receiving DLA?
And I think it is more reasonable to be asking where the support of her family was (re: moving and decorating and possibly applying for DLA) than to be putting all of the blame on the government who are already providing her with housing! Don't forget that they did offer her an alternative.
Because DLA - and the PIP - is fucked up, and bloody hard to be awarded.
I don't know the intimate details of this poor woman's back story, but it's not uncommon to be too disabled/sick to work but still not qualify for DLA or its successor PIP.
You really are a total and utter twat likeitorlumpit
Because DLA - and the PIP - is fucked up, and bloody hard to be awarded.
according to the Sun she has never applied for any disability benefit - over decades.
Betty I'm so so sorry. Ignore the heartless and thick ( for want of a better word ) comments from LikeIt.
My ds committed suicide 4 years ago and it's never going to sink in what's happened.
It's very hurtful and upsetting when people come out with the old selfish claptrap. I wish they would just think for 1 second.
I do also agree with sirboobalot, I do not personally agree with the way in which this woman chose to end her life, but it's obvious she was completely desperate. Likeitorlumpit I really hope your words don't come back to haunt you one day.
Seriously "why not apply for DLA".
Enough of us have posted here about the decimation of the welfare system. You can't just apply for ESA and DLA now without being assessed by a private company who gets paid bonuses for getting people off these benefits. The word of your specialist consultant means zilch over these non specialist healthcare staff (not all doctors).
According to one such nurse if you can press a button with one finger you can work in a supermarket (C4 Dispatches)
Real nice likeitorlumpit
I lost my little boy when I was 20 weeks pregnant in December then buried him in January, I was diagnosed with PND and in my darkest days at the beginning I wanted to throw myself out the window, not because I wanted to punish others but because I was hurting so bad. Luckily my DH knows me inside out and was there to stop me (thank goodness). My point is, saying things like that is hurtful, it wasn't my fault, it's been a hard time so maybe you should think before commenting like that again.
Tiredmum I'm sorry about your baby and that had to read those posts.
DLA is only applicable if you have care needs or mobility needs. If you are too ill to work, but able to care for yourself, you don't qualify.
For someone who is unwell, an offer of a house 30 minutes' walk from the nearest bus-stop and miles from family, is not an offer, imo.
but she had not claimed IB either.
Likeit - do fuck off - I don't need to calm down thank you, but these ignorant comments make my blood boil. We will be burying a young man on wednesday lost to suicide, we don't need your warped thoughts on it.
Ever thank you and I am so sorry for the loss of your son. Suicide is an utter tragedy and I never ever thought in a million years my family would be effected by it. It just beggars belief and we will never know...never understand....but we can't hate him for it, he was obviously in the pits of despair and despite us being a loving family he just didn't feel able to talk to us.
Tired I am so sorry for the loss of your baby.
So sad we all have to read such ignorant comments.
I used to think it would be very selfish to commit suicide other than in the most considerate and thought out manner. Until dd made two attempts. Then I realised that by the time you are jumping out of that window or swallowing those pills, you are not in that place where you can think and consider. From the outside, from my mind, her problems looked perfectly solvable. From inside her mind, I might as well have been holding that gun to her head.
Like it. If you think that you are somehow able to take the moral high ground with passive/aggressive smileys and no swearing, you are vary much mistaken. You are in fact making it worse. You. Have upset people with an insensitive analysis, the adult thing to do would be to apologise and bugger off.
Very. Apologies, blooming iPad!
Likeitorlumpit. My goodness how suited are you to your user name. By your narrow minded comments. I am sure I can be forgiven for making the asumption that your life is fantastic. Well it must be. Yes things may be fine now but life can sneak on up on you when you least expect it and it's usually when you think everything's o.k. How ever I hope it does not. x
Thank you everlong and Betty
Everlong I'm sorry to hear about your DS x
Betty I'm also sorry to hear about your BIL, I hope you all manage to get through Wednesday as best you can x
thanks for the flaming everyone , sorry if my opinion has upset anyone , i wasnt slagging anyone off , in my situation i think it is selfish ,i think its selfish that a dad puts his head in the oven and doesnt give a shit that his child will be the one to find him ? , or his child will forever feel guilty that they couldnt stop them and have to live a life of what ifs ,they put their self out of the misery but let others carry the burden , so in this case yes it was selfish , sorry for any offence to others , i know there are different scenarios , , im not stupid enough to think every one and every situation is the same , i wrote that in anger and i really apologise for any upset or offence to anyone .
No but what you are saying is totally stupid Likeit.
People who kill themselves are ill. They can't see a way out. They don't want to be alive.
How bad must you be if you can't even think about your children or your mother or your wife that's going to be left to carry in without you.
You come across as very young and without life experience.
Hi Betty. So sorry to read about the suicide in your the young man in your family and you do not need me to point out that hurtful comments are the last thing that a greaving family needs.
You're right though you can't hate. As you say this poor man must have been in dispair. Suicide must be the the most painful way to lose someone. To know that a person was in that much emotional pain must cut like a knife. Love and thoughts also to everyone who is suffering from depression and to all others who have lost a loved one to suicide. xxx
Like it. Are you talking to someone about it?
my dad was unable to kill himself due to being unable to use his arms or legs or sit up.
it meant he asked me to do it - which I do think was selfish. he did succeed in the end and I also think that act was selfish.
I don't think he had depression & no doctor diagnosed it - it a logical decision that this was not a life he wanted. I think it was selfish he wanted to die more than see his family.
no dawn it was a long time ago , this is my only experience of suicide so that is my only thought on it ,it makes me so angry , i have kids and would never put them through that pain , i know everyone is different and cant cope with things , i know my post sounded hard and ignorant but that is my only dealing with suicide , so was only saying how i felt , i am really sorry ive upset anyone ,i wasnt thinking about others and how they felt if it happened to someone in their family in a different way .
Well at least you have had the guts to say sorry and we are not here to argue or make enemies of course we're not.
If only your first post though was as open minded and explanatory as your latest post, but you have aknowledged that your words did hurt and for that you have apologised and I don't you can't do anymore. xx
I can't imagine the horror of finding someone who has killed themselves - especially if you are a close relative. I can see how someone can project a lot of anger onto that person - it sounds like likeit has been in that situation (sorry if I'm misinterpreting). You would have to wonder what drove them to such a point and not to be able to think about the effect of someone killing themselves has on the individual who found them or was the driver of a train or HGV.
But can you imagine what it must be like to be suicidal? I bet most of us can't. I've been really really down and have had thoughts but I don't think I've ever been in such a state to do it. But people do get in that state and can only think of themselves.
I've known 2 people commit suicide and a friend attempt it. Even though I only knew one person online to a degree and had tried to communicate with her when I knew about her situation, I never really knew her. But I was racked with real torment and guilt after her death. That was with someone who was not even close to me.
To have someone close to you kill themselves. How do you cope? There's some threads on mental health at the moment and some of them are heartbreaking. Talking about suicide and the effects.
I feel so sorry for anyone who gets in this situation. It's not easy.
likeitorlumpit, the problem is that by the time somebody gets to the suicidal state they are no longer thinking straight. You might as well say it was selfish of dd to keep shouting when she was delirious from a kidney disorder. Or selfish of my grandma not to acknowledge me when she was suffering from dementia. It was terribly upsetting to hear my grandma saying that she had no idea who I was. But she couldn't help that.
I know how angry you get when somebody close to you kills themselves or tries to kill themselves. I was angry with dd.
But then dd's friend was angry with her mum for dying from cancer. It doesn't actually mean that her mum could help that.
If you are having to deal with the feelings arising from this, it might be a good idea to find somebody to talk to about it. But I don't think a public forum is the right place.
i cant apologise enough i was just angry and wrote the first thought in my head, not given a thought to anyone else , yes it was selfish and ignorant , and ill be more careful in future not to just blurt stuff out and upset people , i really wasnt here to make enemies or cause a row .
" i have kids and would never put them through that pain "
I bet a lot of people have thought that and still gone ahead. This person who I had a lot in common with left behind a young family. Life seemed to be going well.
I've said that. I have a son and I would not want to do anything like that to him. That's why I opened up to my GP about everything. Just to preserve my mental health.
But life can be very very hard.
the problem is that by the time somebody gets to the suicidal state they are no longer thinking straight.
that's not correct. my dad made a logical decision that the life he had was too far away from what he wanted. you can be suicidal and rational.
Likeitorlumpit, thank you for apologising. It can obviously be hard for all parties involved, but every situation is different, which you have acknowledged. I can understand why you wrote it in anger though.
I don't do enemies
cory - But I don't think a public forum is the right place.
your are not the MN police. we don't all have to agree.
<waves at likeitorlumpit>
thanks for coming back to explain
and I can relate to your feelings of anger too
There could be 1001 reasons why she did not get/ apply for DLA. I know someone who cannot read and write well enough to apply for certain benefits to which they are entitled and too proud to ask for help.
Likeit thank you for the apology.......sounds like you have been through the mill too.
Trouble is, I think that a majority of the time when a person is thatysuicidal they are not rational at all, they aren't thinking like you or me, they are just in a black fog of which there is no way out.
My BIL has no MH issues, no history of depression etc etc which is why it was such a massive shock to us. He had been ill with a sickness bug that week and managed to convince himself that he was dying. When we went round his house he had been shopping and stocked up the fridge, had bought lots of new clothes, not the actions of someone wanting to end their life at all. I personally think that he woke up on the Monday morning is severe pain and decided he was dying and he couldn't go on. He nursed his dad through cancer, his mum through dementia and probably thought who the hell was going to nurse him. He was a very shy guy and never had a relationship but we all loved him so much, we would have nursed him but he just couldn't see that at that time. I think he had a bit of a melt down and unfortunately did something from which there is no coming back. He wasn't thinking about what he was going to do to us, to the brother who found him, I think he was thinking he was saving us from caring for him.
There are of course instances in which people are ill or injured or whatever and the quality of life is so poor they just want to end it. I totally respect that - people sometimes have to live with conditions we wouldn't even let an animal suffer with
Likeit It takes courage to apologise publicly. Well done, you. I hope life becomes easier for you.
You've chosen not to receive pms, but you would probably find you'd get quite a bit of support if you wanted it.
dawn i was just this minute trying to pm betty but i dont know how to , i must of changed settings when i joined and dont know how to change them back , thanks to the people who dont bear a grudge , wish i was a bit more understanding like you i was talking to my mum about things before i came back on here , and she made me realise i was being pig headed and not listening to any other situations ,that made me feel a bit ashamed i must admit , im going to name change and hide this thread now and hope to be a better person from it all x
Likeit - we all get hardened by life sadly, lots of people have said I am a lot harder since my mum died.
You were big enough to apologise so you are obviously more understanding than you give yourself credit for.
Likeit You don't have to do that, nobody bears a grudge. I do thnk you need to talk to somebody though. If you do name change, try and pm me. I'm sure Betty would appreciate that too.
You may need to untick something in your registration box or summat <untechy>.
Go to MyMumsnet at the top and see if that helps.
IB is for people who have worked in the last 3 years. You can't get it 'just' for being ill. You have to have recently worked more than 16 hours per week, which is unlikely if you are long-term sick/disabled.
likeit - I hope you get the help you need. Suicide is a surreal situation for everyone involved.
DLA is also NOT an out of work benefit. As well as being bloody hard to get now as other posters have mentioned.
however this women had been unable to work for years/decades and yet had never made claim for any type of disability benefit according to the Sun.
so recent changes cannot be the explanation.
DLA has never been easy to claim despite what you read in the Daily Mail.
Likeit, thank you for coming back to apologise, and I'm sorry to hear about your loss. There are some great options for accessing support to help you process things, if you should choose to do so.
Like others have said, there is no need to namechange
Suicide is such a taboo... And is still so misunderstood. I've attempted, found friends after attempts, supported them through recovery... Sadly not everyone has been okay. It breaks the hearts of everyone around, but when you are there, feeling that much, or feeling nothing at all - you are not being deliberately selfish, you just cannot see an alternative. It's horrible being left in the shockwaves of any death. But my immediate reaction to any suicide is always sadness, because I know just how much someone must be hurting to feel that is what they need to do.
And sentence that is finished with "... according to the Sun..." is one that I would take with a pinch of salt tbh.
I went to the bank today. because of all these changes im getting less money.
I or DC dont get DLA because even thouhg we both have severe mobility probs we can put our feet on the floor. thats their excuse.
we dont gewt any help with our car and i had to fork out hundreds to get it fixed.
ive had to sell some furniture to make ends meet-for now.
food has gone up.
if i cant get rent paid we are homeless.
It is a very sad story but there must have been other issues at play and this must have been the one that tipped the balance.
I can see what the govt are trying to do, it is very sad for families with children when they are stuck in unsuitable housing for months/years.
It does seem fairly ludicrous that you can have one person living in a 3 bed house for example when a family with maybe 3 or 4 children are holed up in a flat.
I know that the single person may have lived there for years etc, but surely you need to accept as a council tenant that you may have to downsize at some point? Many many owner occupies downsize because they have to.
I know there may not be suitable properties readily available but surely they need to implement a scheme whereby if you are prepared to move you register your property and you then don't have to pay the tax pending a suitable alternative property being found. Clearly you need a definition of what a suitable alternative property is and then if the person is being unreasonable in moving the tax would kick back in.
As got disabled people being adversely affected that is a disgrace and needs to be addressed ASAP.
Look if the gov want people to downsize then THEY should find something for them. no, as long as they have their big houses and 2nd houses and all their expenses they dont give a sh*****.
no its not fair for a family of, say, 6 being cooped in a 1 bedroom but theres also those wholl keep having children regardless.
and do we REALLY need to get started on immigration when theres inadequate housing as it is here?
in council housing theres the chance to swap, but it can take a long time (speaking from exp), but those in poorer situations, especially diabled etc NEED help. and if your house is adapted for disability then its not fair to turf someone out. or charge them more for it.
do MPs claiming expenses for a second home face a bedroom tax? I think they used to be allowed room for their family to come and stay with them.
She probably DID have other problems: I would say to kill yourself you need depression, anxiety or similar at a severe level.
you know disability level.
Like her Myasthenia Gravis. Which she could have claimed DLA and been able to fund her bedroom tax for, but not one person told the poor soul.
I know there may not be suitable properties readily available but surely they need to implement a scheme whereby if you are prepared to move you register your property and you then don't have to pay the tax pending a suitable alternative property being found'
That's been in place for YEARS, I remember leafing through files of swap offers when I was with my Mum paying rent at the council and I left home 16 years ago! trouble is they just don't build for single people, never been a particularly likely to qualify group for social housing. So the housing isn't there.
prepares to get shot
But... Has anyone spared a thought for the innocent driver, whose life has been effected by this in an un thinkable way. He was going about his daily business and bam, he killed someone. Suicide is selfish, I agree with Jeremy Clarkson's comments tbh, even though he got lynched for them.
It isn't the governments fault. It isn't her doctors fault, it isn't even her family's fault. Is it her fault, I don't know. No one will ever know all the facts, except the women herself. And since she is no longer in a position to tell them, its a moot point.
Oh piss off.
I'm not in the mood for arguing.
Fucking Jeremy Clarkson.
My son was not selfish. He loved us and he would not have wanted me to live in the pain that I live every day. It's decimated our family.
He would not want this.
He was depressed and ill but we didn't know.
So think about the people on this thread who have had their lives torn apart by suicide.
To have empathy for someone as desperate as this person does not make me have no sympathy for the driver. What a ridiculous concept.
suicidal thoughts do not neccessarily mean a person has mental problems.
All whove lost people to suicide, my sincere and genuine sympathies.
If it wasnt for DC Id be another one crossed off the list too. and im not mentally unstable, I have a very very VERY hard life, not my fault, I didnt ask or need this.
I hope any of you that are unsympathetic never have this happen to you or yours.
Louise yes, I have : I feel hugely for him.
DH worked for a hauliers and knew a few drivers this had happened to.
But I don't think suicide is selfish, because you don't kill yourself in a frame of mind that can process it: people do it often enough thinking the opposite, that they are releasing others from a burden.
And the Government were warned about this; she's one in a long line. So yes I blame them. If people were exempt whilst suitable housing were found in their communities it would be better, but no.
That's not enough.
So yep. I blame them.
As for DLA being an out of work benefit- a dear friend with cerebral palsy claims it to have a Carer do most things for him; to get his blue badge; to have an adapted housing and a care package, he has full use of one arm and his neck. With that arm he employs 11 people. He's not rich- couldn't afford it himself (yet, he's only 19) but one day quite likely.
Far from unemployed though.
Marj everyone I have come across who has actually tried to kill tehmselves- and I am in that group, my husband and quite a few people I worked with at a MH hospital- DID have depression or anxiety, or related issues.
There may be cases of course- but I think for the majority, the issues are there, however well hidden. I wouldn't deny anyone's stories on here, how could I, never met those people- but I feel happy to say the large majority do have such issues. I know I did, and without a decent GP and meds I'd not be here now.
I also know how well hidden they can be as a friend ran a charity for people who had lost someone to suicide and she lost her son to it, he was depressed as a result of owing just £300 and developing panic attacks and the like from it. £300.
What good does it do saying suicide is selfish?
The person who you're aiming it at is dead,
Those left behind are the ones hurt by such comments.
Good points Everlong.
There is no need, it's crruel
I know the swap scheme has been around for years, but the main point I was making is that there should be an exemption if you are willing to move.
As to the point regarding not building housing for singles, that issue would need to be dealt with in the definition of suitable alternative housing. It's not behind the realms of the legislature to draft the legislation to cover such an issue.
Very good points Peachy - there simply isn't a ready supply of one bed flats as single people haven't been a priority for social housing. So people are being punished - driven to despair - for something entirely beyond their control. Also good point that it is tragic no-one told the poor woman she could have claimed disability benefits - why none of the health professionals mentioned it, or the council pressing her to move didn't help her to look carefully at her circumstances and take her through all the possibilities...
I think the idea of having a register where you can be exempt from the bedroom tax for a period if you register your willingness to move if suitable housing can be found is a good one.
I think saying "she must have had other problems" is a silly thing to say.
If she had mental health issues, she was not getting adequate support for them. She may not have been getting adequate support for her disability or claiming disability benifits or other out of work benifits if some of what has been reported on this thread is correct. The job of society is to help her with those "other problems" not push her to the point where her problems seem insurmountable.
Just because someone says something in a suicide note doesn't make it true, but this is probably the thing which pushed her over the edge. Sadly, she will probably not be the last to do this. The government does not care
So sorry for all of you who have personal experience of suicide it is such a dreadful thing.
Nobody told me about disability benefits when the kids were diagnosed.
That was a vat of treacle I had to negotiate solo...
Is there ANY way this thread can be sent to Scameron? as if hed do anything anyway, but still........
MNHQ, any way, these top nobs need to see this.
marj, they'd congratulate themselves on a job well done
my BIL had no mental health issues at all......none!!
she was given 2000 pounds and offereda more suitable property six miles away i would like to live nearer my family too but canyt afford it
It's not a simple matter of desire to live close. She needed a support network and adequate transport links to get through life with her auto immune disability.
i am a mental health nurse i have nursed lots of people whotry and commit suicide prhaps it was a ry for help that went wrong
You've got to be pretty set on an idea to throw yourself in front of a vehicle.
I hope you're more freaking empathetic than that to your clients. "You've been given some money and a suggestion, so why are you still complaining?"
Clearly people who succeed aren't always making a cry for help, they don't see outside the fact that they are useless on this earth and that perhaps their loved ones would genuinely be better off without them,
Betty and Everlong, and others with experience, it's heartbreaking for those that are left behind and threads like this must be very painful.
Likeitorlumpit fair play for the public apology.
meanwhile theres (i dont care) smugeron enjoyiong himself with prince (ill never know poverty)Harry in new york.
aaarrrggghhh! theres me and Dc living on beans the rest of the week.
went to counselling today and said about all this and counsellor said theres nothing they can do, but id be threatened to have DC taken away if i keep saying it.
i say i CANT do it because of DC and I love her too much but that doesnt mean i never think seriously about it.
a friend has told me that a single dad has just killed himself because he couldnt manage having so much money taken away too?
dont know full story, said in passing as i said i cant take much more of this.
Is it possible that the woman in question didn't get DLA because she took care of herself and didn't have mobility issues?
DLA is rather rigid in that respect AFAIK.
I feel dreadfully sorry for the lady, the driver of the lorry and this lady's children.
However, I do not think the govt are wholly responsible for this poor lady's demise, and sadly, explaining in her notes that it was the fault of the govt as far as she is concerned will do little to relieve the guilt and trauma that her children and the lorry driver are feeling. Neither will it make any difference to the benefit reduction policy.
Very very sad indeed.
I do wonder why her family couldnt have helped her out. The son was on TV the other day blaming the 'government'. Surely he and his siblings could have helped. There was what £20 to find between them?
TBH - I am getting really uncomfortable about people blaming the 'government' when something happens. She was single living in a three bed house paid by benefits. It is surely not unreasonable to be expected to move to a smaller house. This lady was offered the option to stay, she was offered some money to go. She didnt want to, her family were unwilling to help out financially. So does the council just say, Ok, stay there?
although I don't know how true this is that the lady in question was in quite a lot of debt before the bedroom tax was implemented and the bedroom tax was the final straw.
link to a mass sleep out demonstration that is happening in 40 uk cities so far
This was born from a thread in a anti bedroom tax room and is now proving to be massive get involved !!
Mass sleep out?
I hope it rains on them.
Other people have to cut their suit according to their cloth. We'd all love to have 6 kids and have a free house to stick them all in
What the hells a free house when it's at home?
Who gets a free house?
Social housing is subject to rent payments the same as any other rented house
Free house? Well I had better call my local council to have them repay me all of those £550s per month I have been paying them for my flat
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
I don't want to upset anyone, please believe that. My in laws aged 70 plus have always lived in council accommodation and not worked. My lovely dad, all alone, who has paid literally hundreds of thousands of tax is now and pretty much destitute. In laws have been moved to a care home for free. My dad has about 5 grand left and is living in a flat. We have tried everything to get him assessed, sadly yesterday he was arrested and even now there isn't anywhere for us to go.the landlord is threatening legal action for the rent, quite fairly but there isn't anywhere safe for him to go. All he needs is a place like the in laws have but we can't even get a social worker.
that's right theodorakisses people work all their lives and pay their way like your dad and others just drift along and have it handed to them on a plate.
It's high time this was put to an end once and for all. People are sick of it.
I really don't want to offend anyone, I just wish that we could get any help. I would pay for a social work assessment, they can have whatever they like from us financially, that isn't the point, it is so hard to even get anyone to call back when they say they will. The police promised to make an urgent call, still no word.
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