To think that there is no good in these kids future

(174 Posts)
PatPig Fri 10-May-13 13:31:26

Story here:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22462545
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2322073/Smirk-teenage-thug-moments-killing-OAP-handbag-Pair-15-year-olds-including-father-jailed.html

Age 14 and 15 they killed an old lady to buy Nike shoes, they will serve 3 years in a young offenders institute, one boy has already fathered two children, both have convictions for assaulting their parents, there's violent burglary, kidnap and assault.

AIBU to think they will be let out in 3 years having spent several years in the company of similarly unpleasant teenagers to spend the foreseeable future committing more crime and causing more misery?

valiumredhead Fri 10-May-13 13:35:57

What do you think should happen then if they don't go to prison?

valiumredhead Fri 10-May-13 13:36:13

Or are you saying the sentence isn't long enough?

ReindeerBollocks Fri 10-May-13 13:38:27

The sentence will be in line with Youth Offending Guidelines.

I don't think it is a very long time, given that they have taken a life, and my only hope for these boys is that they get access to real support services to enable them to reflect, and hopefully change their ways.

Wannabestepfordwife Fri 10-May-13 13:39:02

Yanbu I hope that they can be rehabilitated but in IMO they are likely to come out more hardend then they went in

Fakebook Fri 10-May-13 13:39:51

Apart from brainwashing them into being good hmm, I don't know what else could be done to get thugs like these off the street.

TheSecondComing Fri 10-May-13 13:40:17

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ophelia275 Fri 10-May-13 13:41:32

I don't understand how people can get such a short sentence for killing someone. So depressing.

PatPig Fri 10-May-13 13:44:41

I think they should probably stay in there till they are about 30. I just can't see 15-year-old scumbags coming out at 18, not as scumbags. The list of past crimes seems pretty long too.

Horrible.

Pozzled Fri 10-May-13 13:44:49

I think that there can't have been much good in those kids' pasts, either.

I don't believe children are born evil. It's sickening to think that anyone can learn to have such a complete lack of respect for human life.

timidviper Fri 10-May-13 13:53:05

It is sickening to think there are parts of society where lack of respect for all sorts of things is the norm. Unfortunately I don't think any government will ever want to tackle problems with the so-called underclass because of the politically correct backlash so it will just continue

Dawndonna Fri 10-May-13 13:57:14

They were sentenced to six years for the manslaughter, four years for the robbery of Mrs Castle and three years for the robbery of Rosé Mohammed, all to run concurrently.

So, not three years.
The three years will be served in a young offenders institution, after which it is likely that the offenders will be sent to a 'normal' prison.

saulaboutme Fri 10-May-13 13:58:02

I read about this today and it sickens me the justice system in this country! Her daughter made a statement saying the sentence doesn't fit the crime. I really don't understand it.
Very rarely you hear of a fitting sentence for crimes. How can loved ones ever feel and truly say "Justice has been done" in this country?

3 years is ridiculous - they will come out with more knowledge on crime than they went in with.

They are scumbags at 15, they will be scumbags at 18 and probably for the rest of their lives.

I do believe some people are born evil with their brains wired differently and I don't believe they would ever change. Lots of people come from shitty backgrounds etc etc - we do all however, know right from wrong.

PatPig Fri 10-May-13 14:02:18

Dawndonna, that is in fact three years:

www.london24.com/news/crime/boys_15_detained_for_six_years_for_killing_a_partially_sighted_pensioner_1_2187696

"Bartlett, of Northolt, west London, and Hoque, of Mile End, east London, were told they would have extended licence periods of four years after serving half their sentences."

In other words after three years they will be released from prison. For the next four years they will be subject to recall to theoretically serve the remainder of their sentence, if they get caught and convicted of something else.

ohbuggerhelp Fri 10-May-13 14:12:01

With DNA testing and providing there is absolute certainty of guilt, as an atheist I see no reason whatsoever not to re introduce the death penalty for pondscum like this.

I do object to my taxes going on feeding and housing them.

FasterStronger Fri 10-May-13 14:19:24

what was these children's home lives like to make them behave in such a way?

i expect if we knew their parents, their behaviour would make much more sense.

Dawndonna Fri 10-May-13 14:24:49

interesting reading
I'm sure branding them scumbags really helps.
hmm

I'm sure branding them scumbags really helps

What else would you call them then? I think calling them scumbags is actually quite tame to be honest.

Yeah, let's just send them off to live in the lap of luxury and in 3 years time they will be totally reformed. hmm

Dawndonna Fri 10-May-13 14:27:39

Oh, by the way ohbugger dna testing is not 100% accurate. I am certainly not willing to take that risk.

Dawndonna Fri 10-May-13 14:30:30

Oh do grow up, Betty Nobody is that much of a bleeding heart fucking liberal. They're kids. They did wrong, outrageously so. They probably didn't stand a chance at a decent life before they were born, but nasty knee jerk twats will never give them a chance. Some people serve their time and go on to live perfectly respectable, safe lives. Both John Mc Vicar and Erwin James spring to mind. There are probably many others you have never heard of, but closed minds don't listen, don't read and believe that the only way is to meet violence with further violence, be it verbal or physical.

Dawn - I don't need to be told to grow up thanks jut because I don't agree with you on this. They are teenagers, they are old enough to know you don't go round murdering old ladies no matter how shitty their upbringing was. I don't believe violence should meet violence and I don't believe in capital punishment (purely incase they get it wrong) but I also don't believe we should be mollycoddling them and letting them live in luxury whilst they "pay" for their sins.

ohbuggerhelp Fri 10-May-13 14:36:07

I couldn't give a damn how shit their lives have been.
If it had been my old mum they'd killed I'd have seen to them myself.

Prison's too good for them.

FasterStronger Fri 10-May-13 14:36:56

I don't think they should live in luxury either - but they need a chance. and I don't think they have ever had one.

how do you think their parents treated them when they were 5 yo to be this heartless?

Dawndonna Fri 10-May-13 14:38:42

Betty I apologise, I thought you were part of the 'hang 'em high' brigade. Sorry.
It is interesting that the Norwegian model has such a low reoffending rate though.

ohbugger Apart from the fact that if it had been my old mum I'd have been bloody grateful, they did not set out with the intent to murder an old lady. The fact is they did, it was wrong, but it was unintentional. Prison is not too good for anybody.

boschy Fri 10-May-13 14:40:02

oh its such a tough one. Clearly they have had horrible lives in order to behave like this... but they just cant be allowed to continue to do it, can they?

I was at a talk recently about Children in Care in education, and what came through was just how tough it is for these kids. Given the right intervention, the right help, good pastoral support at school etc etc they can make it.

But on the other hand, if some little shite murdered my 82 yo mum I would be at the head of the lynch mob and dont believe I would feel very forgiving.

PoshPaula Fri 10-May-13 14:42:33

Anyone who has even the slightest knowledge of prisons, young offender's institutions or top security hospitals will tell you that the 'lap of luxury is a very foolish and inaccurate description. It's the kind of idea promoted by people who know nothing about this at all.

posh - we are talking about the link DawnDonna posted regarding a prison in Norway where yes, they are living in the lap of luxury.

I've worked with young offenders. Some of them had committed pretty nasty crimes. The crimes these children committed were evil, no doubt about it.

Just because it was interesting to me, here are the things that I noticed in years of working with 'scumbags'. When you went through their lifeline, there was, more frequently than not, a bereavement. Mother, father or sibling. I haven't seen a lot of discussion about that in offending circles but it struck me.

Also, walking into a classroom with them... 8 of them could create more bedlam than 30 in a classroom outside. Not the same with the female offenders at all. Very obviously, there were massive levels of learning issues. FASD, ADHD and so on. When they were given learning support (only inside of course) they all did very well.

Lots of self harm. They don't just not care about other people's pain, they don't care about their own. Drugs, drink, cutting, suicide attempts, unsafe sex you name it.

I'm not saying any of this justifies extreme violence. What I am saying is that these children don't some to this like your children would. They have already suffered so suffering is unlikely to change them into upstanding members of society.

BTW, I'm biased. One young offender saved me from, at the very least, severe burns, possibly I could have died.

PoshPaula Fri 10-May-13 14:55:23

If you read the link about the Norwegian prison, there are a lot of positive outcomes in terms of re-offending rates, etc. Unless of course, Betty, you think our UK system - three men kept in Victorian cell designed for one - is effective as it is.

Would you like any members of your family to go to prison, if they commit a crime?

Yes of course....if a member of my family commited a crime that warrants a custodial sentence then of course. I wouldn't like it obviously but you know the saying.....if you don't want to do the time............

PoshPaula Fri 10-May-13 15:00:43

A judgemental phrase that helps no-one, in terms of prison reform. Going by that logic then inhumane, ineffective punishment without any form of rehabilitation involved is acceptable.

Well, if you don't agree with the prison system where would you suggest putting people who murder old ladies for their purses and such? Seriousy, what do you think should happen to them?

meglet Fri 10-May-13 15:03:43

I'm more interested in how heartbreakingly shite their childhoods were and how failed they were by their parents. And how failed they were by their own parents.

Dawndonna Fri 10-May-13 15:08:11

But they didn't murder an old lady for her purse. The took her purse. The result was she ended up dead, but it wasn't the intention. Yes it was wrong. Yes they were undeniably stupid, violent and wrong. However, it wasn't the intention.
How does putting them in the uk prison environment prevent them from reoffending?

PoshPaula Fri 10-May-13 15:08:35

Believing that our present system needs to be reformed is not the same as 'not believing in the prison system'. Of course the public needs to be protected from dangerous people of any age. There should also be an element of punishment, in respect to the victim(s) and to uphold what is right and wrong. But the present system does not work. I actually believe that people can change and should be given a chance to, at some point in their lives - especially when crimes are committed at a such a young age. So any custodial institution should offer education, appropriate therapy, work opportunities, good basic hygiene, exercise. I guess that makes me a 'do-gooder' by some people's standards.

Yes the problem goes back to the parents but then again our system fails them there too. The parents of such children have probably had children removed and returned, removed and returned. I believe if a child is taken away for proven abuse then there are no second chances and any future children should be removed also. Childrens lives are fragile and should not be messed with by anyone, how many do gooders insist children go back to abusive families because the parents are now reformed ?

PoshPaula Fri 10-May-13 15:13:01

Not all problems are caused by parents.

how many do gooders insist children go back to abusive families because the parents are now reformed It's not do-gooding. it is the heartbreaking knowledge that a bad family is frequently better than foster care and children's homes. The truth is that once you have an abusive family, there are no great possibilities. Very early adoption might work but how on earth do you do that?

PatPig Fri 10-May-13 15:19:40

Dawndonna they pushed an old lady over for money. This is not an ambiguous scenario like two men brawling in a pub. If you push old people over they will die, very often.

Dawndonna Fri 10-May-13 15:24:29

I agree Pat. But it was still not the intent.

Dawndonna Fri 10-May-13 15:27:16

Not all problems are caused by parents.

Indeed, one of the most violent men I have ever come across (rehabilitated btw), had been raped for five years by boys in his year. From year six to year eleven. He was the scholarship boy, so deserved it.
angry

sad Dawndonna

I do wonder if people would be so back and white about it if they had heard the life stories I have heard. People locked in attics because they were a stain on the family, 5 year olds thrown out of the house alone to wander the streets, rape, abuse, bereavement, violence, fear.

*black and white.

Dawndonna Fri 10-May-13 15:33:15

No, MrsTP it's easier to shut your eyes and ears when sitting in judgement!

PoshPaula Fri 10-May-13 15:34:54

And, Terry, parents who have desperately tried to keep their children from harm/harming others but have never received support from either the state or their peers in how to do so. Then have watched their child disappear into the system.

FasterStronger Fri 10-May-13 15:38:13

there are schools in the UK where 10% of the children either have social workers or are thought to be at risk as they come to school unfed and or dirty.

if you have large numbers of children growing up in these circumstances, some will turn to violent crime.

no one ever cared for them, so why should they care for anyone?

Ilikethebreeze Fri 10-May-13 15:38:16

Can I ask, MrsTerryPratchet, [and i think if I remember correctly, you live in Canada], how much help and training and support do the young people especially get in jails either there, or in the UK?

Absolutely. I've also worked in rehab so I have seen people come out the other side. Some never do, of course.

Ilike you're right. I've worked in the field in Canada and the UK. I have found that the youth correctional system is much better here in Canada. Much less focus on prison. More on rehabilitation and restorative justice. Education in the system here is great. There is an issue with racism and a racist system. A massive proportion of the children (and adults) in prison are First Nations. There seems to be less violence inside youth correctional facilities here. I worked in a very naice one though. Having been in the scary British ones, I know where I would rather be...

Homelessness is a crisis here with disabled, addicted and mentally ill people living rough with no support. It's a national shame. Mind you, the Tories are trying to get the UK up to this standard too. Shouldn't be too long now.

TheToysAreALIVEITellThee Fri 10-May-13 15:45:38

Yabu op, the poor innocent lambs have obviously had a hard life and clearly don't know that mugging someone / killing someone is wrong.

Spero Fri 10-May-13 15:47:14

I think a very, very small percentage of people are born 'evil' and their upbringings have little or no impact on how they behave as they grow.

But the vast majority of teenage 'scumbags' will have been subjected to violence, malnutrition, chronic neglect etc from before they were born.

This of course has an impact on behaviour, knowing or even caring about right from wrong. Anyone with a passing interest in the work of Kids Company for eg can see this.

Yes, they need to be off the streets for everyone's protection. I hope they get the chance of some rehab work whilst in prison because they will be out a some stage.

But frothing about 'hanging the scumbags' does nothing to deal with fact that thousands of these potential scumbags are being born every day and we need to rescue them before they are large, dangerous teens.

OutragedFromLeeds Fri 10-May-13 15:47:41

TheToys I don't think anyone is suggesting they don't know it's wrong. They just don't care. Locking them up isn't going to make them care. That's the problem.

claraschu Fri 10-May-13 15:48:35

Did everyone actually read the article about Norway?
I thought it was really interesting and thought provoking. Training prison guards for 3 years rather than 6 weeks seems like a very good place to start.

I did wonder what makes a 15yo think they have the right to steal from another person (especially as the lady was so vunerable) and they had a history of robbery and assault.

But then I read that one attacked his foster dad and the other attacked his parents.

So what happens to 2 young men to let them think they can walk around showing fuck all respect to their family/carers ?

Six years? No-where NEAR enough.

Locking them up isn't going to make them care

True.
But now surely the issue is keeping the rest of the population going about minding their own business safe.

Would you all think the same if that was your mother that died?
If it was the house next to you that they moved into?
If your daughter brought one of these young men home in 5 years time?

I bet you'd view things differently confused

PoshPaula Fri 10-May-13 15:54:12

I liked what the article included about the inmates being treated as people. That is what they are. They may have carried out evil, dangerous behaviour, and be damaged, ruthless and so on themselves, but they are people.

PoshPaula Fri 10-May-13 15:56:40

70 - Of course the public need to be protected. No-one has suggested that this isn't so. The current methods are not particularly effective in the long term though, are they?

Would you think the same if one of these young men was your son or your brother?

OutragedFromLeeds Fri 10-May-13 16:00:36

70 Of course people need to be kept safe, but that isn't going to happen unless they are either rehabilitated or kept in forever? Which do you think is best and cheaper for the tax payer?

I would feel differently if it was my mum, I'd want them strung up, but that's why we don't let bereaved relatives run the justice system.

FreckledLeopard Fri 10-May-13 16:02:03

The article was very interesting. I watched that recent BBC series about Prisoners in Holloway and Pentonville and frankly, what chance do so many offenders have? It's heartbreaking. There are no obvious solutions and I can't see our country replicating the Norwegian model anytime soon.

He have to decide what we want the justice system to DO. Do we want revenge, in which case just torture people. Do we want to keep people safe and offenders punished, in which case long custodial sentences. Do we want to rehabilitate offenders, in which case rehab, counselling, humanity and education with appropriate supportive housing afterwards.

No one seems to want to have this debate. Of course it is easy and satisfying and human to want people who do horrible things punished. People think that liberal bleeding hearts like me don't feel the same rage. Of course we do. I am beside myself when I hear about those women in the USA kept for years and raped. I am livid and tearful when I hear about the dead five year old rape victim in India dumped like garbage in the street. Part of me wants those offenders dead. However, years of working with offenders has taught me that they are human, even the child abusers and rapists and murderers. The crimes are foul and must be prevented. But how best to do that?

FasterStronger Fri 10-May-13 16:04:18

Which do you think is best and cheaper for the tax payer?

early intervention, primary school age.

PoshPaula Fri 10-May-13 16:05:33

I agree, Faster.

OutragedFromLeeds Fri 10-May-13 16:05:47

'early intervention, primary school age.'

but given that this isn't an option for a 14 year old and 15 year old...?

andubelievedthat Fri 10-May-13 16:08:27

thought I was reading the Daily Fail comment column ? J.Boyle for example ,Glasgow nut job ,would routinely nail people to the floor just to show him and others who was "boss" now? successful artiste,why? because as he said in his autobiography,"when I went into the "special unit"(specific prison) I was treated like a human being,like my feelings/opinions mattered,people listened to me and they showed me aspects of life I"d never knew about previously " The Govt. closed the special unit due to cost >go figure. It always comes down to pounds shillings and pence, the human cost is not really important ,because rarely ,if ever does an MP get nailed to a floor.

FasterStronger Fri 10-May-13 16:10:40

outraged - its going to be more expensive.

if you start with 3-5 yo, more pressure on the parents etc. it will be cheaper. if they are older, it will be more expensive

but its not these boys fault they are on their own in this world. they weren't born heartless wankers - their lives -14+ years - have made them that.

BiteTheTopsOffIcedGems Fri 10-May-13 16:14:06

The excuse that children and young adults have had a tough life is not good enough.
What if the old lady they killed for a few pounds had a tough life too, what if she was bereaved and bought up in a violent home (I am not saying that she was but what if she was).
She would have had a crappy life and then be killed in a robbery.

TheToysAreALIVEITellThee Fri 10-May-13 16:14:28

70 - Hopefully they will never have to find out how different their opinion would be if it was their gran that these wastes of oxygen ultimately killed, as I sadly have.

Dahlen Fri 10-May-13 16:16:07

Sadly, I think the OP is probably right in the sense that it is highly unlikely that these two boys will come out reformed characters and spend the rest of their lives doing only good. I've been around long enough to know it rarely happens. sad

However, that's not to say impossible, nor should it mean that we stop giving people the chance. Prison should be about rehabilitation as well as justice being seen to be done, and we've all heard the adage about judging a society based on how it treats its prisoners.

It is fairly well documented that young offenders have notably high rates of learning difficulties, deprivation, bereavement or family breakdown, substance abuse issues, etc. We also know that prevention is better than cure. But because prevention does not yield financially calculable results (because you can't effectively measure the absence of crime), no one is prepared to pay for the vast injection of money needed in children's services, outreach and education that is needed despite the fact that it would save massive amounts of money long term.

Yes, Bite and Toys you are right. It is not an excuse, no one said it was. And, one of the things that is rehabilitation and restorative justice IS victim empathy work. This tries to have them think about the victim and make them think about their grans as well.

ohbuggerhelp Fri 10-May-13 16:19:09

The introduction of a benefits cap will help prevent some of these people being born in the first place, I suspect.

OutragedFromLeeds Fri 10-May-13 16:21:58

I get that Faster, but my point is, it's too late for early intervention for many. We need to deal better with those people. It's cheaper to rehabilitate than it is to lock a 14 year old up for life. If he was 60 then it may be cheaper to lock him up than rehabilitate.

freddiefrog Fri 10-May-13 16:22:14

how much help and training and support do the young people especially get in jails either there, or in the UK?

I'm not MrsTerry (obviously) but I am a foster carer for a young person currently going through Youth Offending at the moment, so coming from my experience, once our YP was actually convicted and in a YOI, support and education has been very good

While inside they had full time education, access to substance misuse therapy, counselling, training courses, etc. Our YP is now out on licence and is still getting the same level of support, but once the licence is up, YOT will withdraw and we'll revert to next to nothing

Our YP wasn't in a 'proper' prison, it was more about rehabilitation than just punishment.

However, whilst there is a lot of support and help there for our YP at the moment, it's next to impossible to get them to engage. While in the YOI they did very well, because they didn't really have any other choice, but now they're out they show up for a YOT appointment just long enough not to get breached. We can throw everything we can at them, and we encourage YP to make positive changes and good choices, but you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink as they saying goes

But, our YP is a product of their upbringing, we've only had them 7 months, 2 of which they were in a YOI, they had 16 years to get them to the position they were in when they came to us and you can't undo all that over night. All we can really do is keep throwing everything we've got at them, in the hope that one day they will decide to make these changes, and take these opportunities

OutragedFromLeeds Fri 10-May-13 16:25:48

It's not an excuse bite,it's a fact. Completely ignoring why these kids did this is stupid and dangerous.

No amount of locking these boys up or making their life hard or toturing them is going to take back the victim's suffering or bring her back for her relatives. Preventing it happening in the first place would have.

ohbuggerhelp Fri 10-May-13 16:26:37

Or we can spend those precious reserves on people who will be grateful and benefit and make custodial sentences longer, tougher and harsher?

Spero Fri 10-May-13 16:26:50

You have got to distinguish having a 'tough' life with what some of these children go through.

They are mistreated to such an extent they simply can't develop empathy, compassion, understanding. One child at kids company said every day was like waking up in a war zone. Before he got out of his front door to go to school he had a knife and wanted to stab someone.

Yes, I want to be protected from him. Yes it may be too late for him.

But better surely to intervene earlier than go around hanging people?

PatPig Fri 10-May-13 16:26:53

ohbuggerhelp, how exactly? The benefits cap is £26k/year. It affects very few people.

TheToysAreALIVEITellThee Fri 10-May-13 16:35:45

MrsTP I know no-one has outright said its an excuse apart form one poster who has blatently said maybe they dont know right from wrong, but quite a few have referred to their upbringing being to blame. The simple fact is however shite your early life, you know its not 'OK' to mug and cause the death of someone.

I dont agree with capital punishment. But I do think that if you do something as horrendous as this, you have already shown that you do not wish to be part of a civilised society. The only time I could see myself even nodding slightly in agreement with rehabilitation and therapy and hugging kittens etc would be if the length of rehabilitation mirrored the age of the scum that committed the crime - my reasoning being along similar lines I guess to those who state that their upbringing is to blame - so if after 14 years of life they still thought it was ok to mug and kill someone, its not too much of a stretch to assume it would take 14 years to undo that.

Anyway, it is pretty obvious that I am biased in this, having lost my gran in similar circumstances. In a way Im glad I didnt have to witness the bastards only getting 3 years as they were never caught.

ohbuggerhelp Fri 10-May-13 16:39:57

Once you stop behaving like a human being, you lose your human rights, surely? ergo, lock them up hard and long or hang 'em.

OutragedFromLeeds Fri 10-May-13 16:40:08

'The simple fact is however shite your early life, you know its not 'OK' to mug and cause the death of someone'

but they don't care and that's the problem. A problem that cannot be solved by just locking them away. Unless they are locked away for ever, which would be very expensive and impractical (no space).

Dawndonna Fri 10-May-13 16:44:22

*Would you all think the same if that was your mother that died?
If it was the house next to you that they moved into?
If your daughter brought one of these young men home in 5 years time?

I bet you'd view things differently*
Appeals to emotion are not really a compelling or valid argument. It's a fallacy when emotiion is used instead of a logical argument or to obscure the fact that no compelling rational reason exists for one's position.
This applies to both of these too:
The excuse that children and young adults have had a tough life is not good enough.
What if the old lady they killed for a few pounds had a tough life too, what if she was bereaved and bought up in a violent home (I am not saying that she was but what if she was).
She would have had a crappy life and then be killed in a robbery.

The introduction of a benefits cap will help prevent some of these people being born in the first place, I suspect.

The introduction of a benefits cap will help prevent some of these people being born in the first place, I suspect.

ohbuggerhelp Fri 10-May-13 16:45:31

They are unlikely to ever care so why waste money and time trying?

TheToysAreALIVEITellThee Fri 10-May-13 16:46:56

I know that's impractical, sadly. I don't know what the solution is either, except perhaps just ship them off to a desert island so they can all be evil bastards together and have nothing to do with people who actually do care about not killing someone. imo they don't deserve to have anyone care about them, they lost that right im afraid

I'm very sorry Toys about your gran. That is horrible. And, I'm sorry the perpetrators didn't get caught.

I have worked in substance rehab and it is by no means kitten hugging. It's hard, boring, headache inducing work for therapists and addicts. I also don't think rehabilitation works for everyone. However, the recidivism rates differ wildly. I might be in agreement with (humanely) locking up child sex offenders for ever. Because they are hard to treat and the damage is horrifying when they reoffend. Murderers, however, rarely reoffend.

My attitude is that I want to prevent crime. If locking people up for ever worked, you might argue that, but it doesn't. We can't afford to do it. So, it's rehabilitation or massive reoffending like we have now. If we want to prevent crime we need to target that. Talking about stringing people up and 'hard time' is satisfying but ultimately doesn't work to prevent crime.

OutragedFromLeeds Fri 10-May-13 16:52:54

ohbugger because rehabilitation does work. Read the link earlier about the Norwegian system.

' imo they don't deserve to have anyone care about them, they lost that right im afraid'

Don't think about what they deserve, think about what we as a society deserve. We deserve to be safe don't we? The best way to achieve that is to rehabilitate people who do wrong. You don't need to care about them, just the outcome. If the outcome is they don't hurt anyone else then that's good surely?

vivizone Fri 10-May-13 16:59:07

Urgh why did I click that DM link? the comments are totally racist as expected.

They're utter scum though.

TheToysAreALIVEITellThee Fri 10-May-13 17:00:50

By definition locking someone up forever would work, and probably be a cracking deterrent. But I know that's not a possibility.

And thank you for the first line of your post, its been nearly 16 years and not a day goes by that i don't think about my gran, and how long it actually took for what the fuckers did to finally take her. It's one of the reasons I'm not religious anymore. And prob one of the reasons I should bid this thread farewell

ohbuggerhelp Fri 10-May-13 17:03:10

Of course locking them up forever works. hmm

That and hanging are the only two solutions absolutely guaranteed to work!

Sorry Toys. Intellectual debate is all very well but real bereavement and loss are horrible and stay with you. Sorry if this thread has made you feel worse.

Of course locking them up forever works. Of course it doesn't. It moves the offending inside. You may think it's OK for a 19 year old kid who twocked cars to get raped and murdered inside by someone who has nothing to lose because he is locked up forever. That is the result of three strikes and life means life. The possibility of parole helps keep prisons (and their staff) marginally safer.

thezebrawearspurple Fri 10-May-13 17:13:40

They should never be released, they are disgusting, remorseless little psychopaths and their brains are to damaged to ever recover from that. Their parents should be prosecuted for raising them that way, they've done a terrible job and they are responsible for how they've turned out.

Sadly though these vermin will be out murdering again in a few years while their parents will continue to breed more violent thugs to destroy innocent peoples lives, there is no justice.

Dawndonna Fri 10-May-13 17:25:35

Oh bugger, but the death sentence doesn't work does it. Just look at the states

Dawndonna Fri 10-May-13 17:27:45

Try reading the article, thezebra

Aside from all the "Oh they had a bad start" the fact remains:

They are both 15 (so 'old' enough to know better. Even at the age they commited their numerous crimes}

They actively sought out someone elderly, blind, vunerable to rob.
Not to buy food.
Not to pay for essentials.
To buy training shoes. That woman's life was taken for TRAINING SHOES.

And one of them (at 15) has 2 children.
So that's two children now with a dad in prison.

Where to start. Where to step in and take preventative action?

Goal Fri 10-May-13 17:43:20

A good place to start in preventative action would be to sterilise them.

Dawndonna Fri 10-May-13 17:45:03

I agree that preventative action needs to be taken, I don't think that hanging or life imprisonment work, certainly not as deterrents. It is intereting to note that one was already in foster care. I wonder why.
The point I was trying to make was that there are models that work and it would in fact be cheaper to use the Norwegian rehabilitation model than the model we currently use, which is expensive and ineffective and expensive and ineffective, ad infinitum.

JakeBullet Fri 10-May-13 17:46:35

Will they "live in luxury" or will they live in normal accommodation for teenagers (still children remember) where there will be input to try and help them address their offending behaviour?

By the way, I don't think they got nearly long enough but dont believe we should be writing them off just yet. Generally, kids from devent and normal backgrounds do not do this kind of thing. Children who have grown up in a climate of neglect and abuse can be more likely to do this. As a society we pay the price for our failure to address this neglect early enough.

Ilikethebreeze Fri 10-May-13 17:50:35

The article doesnt say the background of the two boys, so I suppose we are assuming they have not had a nice upbringing, but we could be wrong couldnt we?

JakeBullet Fri 10-May-13 17:53:45

We could be wrong about their background but I would lay money on it being abusive.

Btw, tis does NOT excuse teir actions in the least, it is about saying as a society that we need to look out for children in neglectful homes, get support in early and address violence. I would bet my income that these two grew up in homes where violence was the norm. Address this kind of thing and the chances of these crimes occurring will reduce.

Goal Fri 10-May-13 17:59:24

I think it was the USA where the legalisation of abortion had a significant impact on lowering crime statistics. Stoping these children being conceived in the first place would be most effective

Dawndonna Fri 10-May-13 18:11:52

I think it was the USA where the legalisation of abortion had a significant impact on lowering crime statistics. Stoping these children being conceived in the first place would be most effective

Are you Marie Stopes?
hmm

ohbuggerhelp Fri 10-May-13 18:14:27

Quite, Goal and the tightening up of a generous benefits system should help too.

Dawndonna Fri 10-May-13 18:18:42

Quite, Goal and the tightening up of a generous benefits system should help too.

Oh good grief. I refer you to my earlier comments regarding eyes and ears being shut for the purposes of sitting in judgement.
The two are unconnected. There have been vile and violent murders carried out by the wealthy, by the middle classes, by the working classes. It isn't just the feckless, benefit scrounging scum that are guilty, as you would have it.

ohbuggerhelp Fri 10-May-13 18:19:16

dawndonna no of course, far better for unloved and unwanted children to be born into lives of abuse and neglect and for them to go on right ahead and repeat the process. Doesn't the fact that crime went down with legal abortion tell you that these children were never wanted in the first place??

ohbuggerhelp Fri 10-May-13 18:23:36

dawndonna check your stats. The vast majority of violent, repeated crime is by the lowest social group. Prisons are full of ill educated, unemployed males fathering children randomly. They are full of problem people costing the state millions to house, feed, catch, process and repeatedly incarcerate. Don't be disingenuous.

Dawndonna Fri 10-May-13 18:28:00

A natural assumption that those on benefits are those that are unloved and unwanted.
I do not work ohbugger. I look after my disabled dh. I do not claim benefits either. I do not need to. My mother, as I pointed out earlier is an abusive, narcissist. She is the granddaughter of a lord and very wealthy. Trust me dear, abuse crosses all barriers, including financial and the benefits cap will do absolutely nothing to stop this. As I said, there have been violent murders by the very wealthy too. Jeremy Bamber is such an example.
Crime went down with legal abortion because abortion became legal, therefore the crime of abortion no longer existed. Oh, and legal abortion still exists here, so if they were originally unwanted, then something could have been done.

Dawndonna Fri 10-May-13 18:32:58

Oh, and ohbugger I don't need to be disingenuous, I have stated, very clearly how the problem of unemployed males who have never been given a valid opportunity to access education or any other validation can be resolved. In fact it's even one that would cost the country less, long term. Less cost, fewer crimes, what more could one want.

ohbuggerhelp Fri 10-May-13 18:36:54

valid opportunity to access education

What, like it being free and compulsory? hmm

How about we blame the scum themselves not everyone else, huh?

Dawndonna Fri 10-May-13 18:42:00

<head, desk>
Listen sweetie, it isn't working, is it. I'm not trying to make you change your mind, just trying to get you to see that it isn't anything to do with being skint, or being on benefits, there lies the argument of false cause.
Futile.

ohbuggerhelp Fri 10-May-13 18:44:44

Please don't try to patronise me by calling me sweetie . I worked for years in prisons and YOI and PRU's so I know damn well what I'm talking about.

I just don't agree with a word you've uttered, is all.

FreudiansSlipper Fri 10-May-13 18:45:10

uhbuggerhelp the abortion/lower crime rate stats did not take other factors in great details like investment in poor areas, better education in poor areas, more equality in poor areas, women having better access to birth control, women having careers, more people attening college

and the 3 strikes law has seen many crimminals in prison on long sentences this has made a difference too. it is terrible and shameful that there are more 19 year old black males in prison than in college

ohbuggerhelp Fri 10-May-13 18:46:10

And you can't have it both ways. either these scum are scum because they come form a horrid, deprived background or background has nowt to do with it in which case why even try to rehabilitate?

ohbuggerhelp Fri 10-May-13 18:47:04

* it is terrible and shameful that there are more 19 year old black males in prison than in college*.

It is. But why is that?

Dawndonna Fri 10-May-13 18:47:35

Jesus, that is truly fucking scary, ohbugger and to be honest, your attitude would go a long way to explaining what's wrong with the system as it stands.
Nuff said.

ohbuggerhelp Fri 10-May-13 18:48:43

And bleeding heart lentil knitters like you are far more scary and why scum like this are let out to slaughter some other poor bastard after a few years.

BiteTheTopsOffIcedGems Fri 10-May-13 18:48:44

What are people's opinions on children that have a shit upbringing and never commit crime?
My dad in law was left by his mother, had an abusive father, left school at thirteen and had no money. He is a lovely man and has never even stolen penny sweets from a shop.
What about middle class children that commit terrible crimes? What is their excuse? In my local area recently two teenagers violently attacked another person, they were from 'nice families'

ohbuggerhelp Fri 10-May-13 18:54:04

oh god bite don't ask that! Dawndonna won't be able to blame everyone and his dog except the offender!

andubelievedthat Fri 10-May-13 18:57:07

Interesting ,thing is ,these people cannot be put to death nor banged up for life so....anyone ? Daily Fail readers who will no doubt claim they don't read said saddo rag need not reply,and I hate lentils and cannot basket weave ,but do live in a total shithole of a housing scheme,so that's my credentials sorted then.>no death no jail for life and ! no sterilisation on Govt. orders either ,so ,what? these "scumbags" are still here.

Spero Fri 10-May-13 19:01:00

How do you access the 'free and compulsory' education if you are hungry, beaten down, your very brain changed by years of abuse and mistreatment?

Do some of you really not see the difference between a 'tough' upbringing and and no upbringing at all?

These boys don't care about what they did, I bet they don't give a shot. But I also bet a lot of money they weren't born, they were made.

So froth all you want about hanging and prisons and scum. Thousands of these children are being conceived right now. Cutting benefits will not stop it.

FreudiansSlipper Fri 10-May-13 19:01:38

why is that

again a number of factors, poverty, lack of opportunity, racism within the judicial system, desire to be a criminal, lack of respect for self and others, expectations from others, drug addiction, lack of education, lack of secure upbringing

whatever the reasons it is not going to change in the long run if the core problems are ignored

Goal Fri 10-May-13 19:06:54

abortion link

Have a read dawndonna it has naff all to do with the fact abortion is no longer bing counted as a crime!

Also who said anything about the poor. Preventing violent criminals from having further children has nothing to do with money or class however hard you try to twist it.

infamouspoo Fri 10-May-13 19:24:29

I'm perplexed as to how cutting 'generous' benefits will solve crime. Looking pre-war we had the same problems.

AmberLeaf Fri 10-May-13 19:52:26

The article doesnt say the background of the two boys, so I suppose we are assuming they have not had a nice upbringing, but we could be wrong couldnt we?

Well it mentions one of them attacking his foster father, so at least one was in LA care.

That tells you something at least about his background.

AmberLeaf Fri 10-May-13 19:56:00

Oh god yes, the racist comments at the bottom of the article.

You would think a white person never committed a crime.

Dawndonna Fri 10-May-13 20:07:17

Have a read dawndonna it has naff all to do with the fact abortion is no longer bing counted as a crime!

Except Lott and Whitley disproved the Donohue and Levitt theories in 2001. Goal

JakeBullet Fri 10-May-13 20:25:45

I am on benefits.....I have no desire to attack others
I had a neglected upbringing.....I have no desire to attack others

Why? Because ONE parent mitigated the crappy circumstances by beig available, loving and helpful to me.

I would bet neither of these teenagers had that.

Still doesn't make what they did right or excuse it but as I said up thread, unless as a society we start taking notice of neglected children (and they come from ALL walks of life) we will continue to see such crimes.

....and btw, we don't "take notice" or help children in these families by cutting benefits and making their already shit lives harder. We should be getting in there early, making sure parents KNOW the importance of affection in growing the infant brain (particularly the frontal lobes which regulate emotion and impulse control) and supporting them to parent properly. We might see less f this kind of thing in the future then..

Spero Fri 10-May-13 20:47:33

Exactly.

If your first few years are ok, or you have at least one adult in your life looking out for you, chances are you can be ok.

But if you have nothing and nobody, if the abuse and deprivation starts in the womb, its a very different story.

Dawndonna Fri 10-May-13 20:48:57

Well said Jake.

WhataSook Fri 10-May-13 21:59:12

YANBU, that is how they will come out, almost 99% guaranteed. I dont know what the answer is, but it isnt what the government are currently doing.

These boys attacked a helpless OAP and that behaviour is truly shocking and not deserving in being part of society. I dread to think though what their experiences for the next 3 years will.

Goal Fri 10-May-13 22:02:42

Dawndonna I suggest you actually read the link. It addresses Lott and whitley.

What would your objection be to sterilising violent criminals? There isn't really a human rights argument as imprisoning people contravenes there human.

I wonder if you have ever read child protection files, because from the way you post it seems as if you have probably not come face to face with the realities of how one people treat their children.

Pozzled Fri 10-May-13 22:57:14

I have been reading this thread with interest and agree with most of what dawndonna has said, and also JakeBullet's comment above.

I don't know why these two boys did what they did, but I am convinced that their upbringing was seriously at fault. Violent criminals can come from all sorts of backgrounds. However, I don't believe that a child who has always been loved, respected, taught to show empathy, work towards rewards rather than have everything handed to them, respect boundaries... I don't believe a child raised that way would treat another human like an object to be used.

I think there are two important things here:
We (society) should be putting a lot more energy and money into identifying and supporting families who struggle with parenting for whatever reason.

We should also be looking very very closely at how we can reduce the rate of reoffending. And if that prison in Norway is achieving good results, that seems like a good place to start. Surely it's more important to prevent crime than it is to punish criminals?

Goal Fri 10-May-13 23:08:10

I think that people in general really have no idea how appalling som parents are. baby p was not an exceptionally bad case, there are hundreds of families up and down the country like that and worse. These families are beyond help and support, the damage is permanent

Pozzled Fri 10-May-13 23:19:02

Then we need to be removing the children sooner, improving the care system. Educating young people much better to try to enable more of them to do a much better job than their own parents.

Goal Fri 10-May-13 23:59:10

There is not the capacity in the care system and outcomes for children in care are appalling. We need to stop them being Conceived

Dawndonna Sat 11-May-13 07:42:05

Jesus Goal. What fucking right have you got to decide that.
Oh, and I did read the whole thing. Lott and Whitley were backed up in 2005 Foote and Goetz, and Nevin. Levitt and Donahue also admitted they'd got their figures wrong, in 2005.
I think you have no right to say who can and cannot conceive. You are saying that if you are on benefits, you should not be allowed to conceive. If I were not in the position I am in, I would not be allowed to conceive, but because I have enough money I can? That's pretty outrageous, Goal. You've also told a number of people on this thread that because they're on benefit they shouldn't have children. How dare you!

Goal, there is the capacity for adoption, though. I live in a very rough area of Liverpool, there has just been a similar conviction, teens killed a homeless man "for kicks". All around me are lads who don't stand a chance, because of bad parenting and the whole environment. A 21 year old was recently shot dead in the garden behind my house, lads from the age of 12 are caught up in gun crime and younger kids are used in drug activities, because the cannot get charged if caught with drugs on them. On top of that, I am a CP SW, I work in the next LA to where I live, because otherwise I would be writing CP plans for my neighbours children. I have seen the CP process work well for some families, as I have the "justice system" and the add on services provided. However, there is a number of children that would be better served to be removed earlier. I am hoping that as Child Protection standards increase we will see less of the violent crimes that we do, committed by children. Removing benefits or tougher prisons are not the answer, we have tried that, other countries do that and those measures don't work.

I was going to add that the one thing to undo the work being done by various services is the tightening up of the benefit system and Housing Benefit, the process breaks down when families have to move and this is what the new system will cause, unstable housing, so any help put in place and monitoring, will be interrupted, as well as education etc.

I was going to add that the one thing to undo the work being done by various services is the tightening up of the benefit system and Housing Benefit, the process breaks down when families have to move and this is what the new system will cause, unstable housing, so any help put in place and monitoring, will be interrupted, as well as education etc.

I work in a quite well funded LA, when the change in government happened,we were all told to tighten our budgets. The Family Support team that I am connected to had no choice but to cut one of the after school interventions for 7-10 year olds, who are on a CP or CIN plan, these children were mainly boys. The group did excellent work around "having a voice" and "not needing to use aggression to gain self worth", drama and art was used, as well as other means. This is the age that we need to target, but these are the services that have been cut. We will spend triple in the prison service, if we don't spend on these provisions.

Goal Sat 11-May-13 09:28:44

Wow dawndonna- I strongly suggest you read the link again as you seem not to have understood it fully. I also suggest you read the thread again and then apologise as I have not said at any point on this thread anything about benefits, I have talked about violent criminal being stopped from conceiving children. Read the thread.

Goal Sat 11-May-13 09:32:58

Birds- my understanding is we do have capacity for adoption of babies but certainly there is a shortage of adoptive parents for children aged 5 plus with behaviour problems. IME the issue seems to be a reluctance on the part of SW and courts to remove children until the damage has been done and it's too late. Once again I have not at any point said anything about benefits or cuts.

Goal Sat 11-May-13 09:36:20

Just out of interest birds - would you leave your own kids with any of the parents whose kids are on the cp register? Because I sure as hell wouldn't and that tells me they are not doing a good enough job.

Goal, that was my point, I agree that some families cannot be "fixed" and children should be removed sooner. That is what all of the agencies, especially Banardo's have been pushing for. SS now have even stricter time scales to work to and Permanency Plans are being written at 6 months, now, rather than letting Foster Care drag on, with the (often dysfunctional) parents coming and going in and out of the child's life. Some people cannot parent, even with every support system put into place and they should not be allowed to damage their children. It is true that the outcomes for children in the care system is no better than those bought up in dysfunctional households and we need to make vast improvements.

Goal, that was my point, I agree that some families cannot be "fixed" and children should be removed sooner. That is what all of the agencies, especially Banardo's have been pushing for. SS now have even stricter time scales to work to and Permanency Plans are being written at 6 months, now, rather than letting Foster Care drag on, with the (often dysfunctional) parents coming and going in and out of the child's life. Some people cannot parent, even with every support system put into place and they should not be allowed to damage their children. It is true that the outcomes for children in the care system is no better than those bought up in dysfunctional households and we need to make vast improvements.

Goal Sat 11-May-13 09:44:54

Birds - given the cost, disruption and still uncertain outcomes, would it not be better in many cases that these children were not even conceived?

Goal, children are on CP plans for many reasons. I am currently fostering a relatives child, there have been issues, but they can be solved, if the help is accepted and taken on board. The focus of this thread is a certain type of person, who cannot parent and how we address this.

I would never agree with Eugenics, no. I know of lots of people who should have put more thought into becoming a parent, from all walks of life, even colleagues and fellow professionals. Some people don't have the ability, or self awareness to understand why they shouldn't be planning on having children, yet. That is were education and better services can help, targeted services and generally for everyone.

I would never agree with Eugenics, no. I know of lots of people who should have put more thought into becoming a parent, from all walks of life, even colleagues and fellow professionals. Some people don't have the ability, or self awareness to understand why they shouldn't be planning on having children, yet. That is were education and better services can help, targeted services and generally for everyone.

Goal Sat 11-May-13 10:02:55

I suppose at is where we differ, I don't agree with children having to suffer because of their parents which is how it works at he moment.

I have seen the CP process work well and the lives of both parents and child turned around, it isn't all doom and gloom. What we are seeing, in some cases, is the children of the parents who were left in homes that they shouldn't have been in, because CP thresholds were lower. If CP levels were consistent across all LA's and a few of the issues in Child Services/Family Courts ironed out, then there will continue to be an improvement. The one thing that we do need, is the general public to be willing to make referrals about what is happening. Child Mental Health services need an overhaul, as do all MH services and increased funding.

Goal Sat 11-May-13 10:18:11

Agree re mental health. IME cp thresholds are ludicrously high and health education and the police frequently make referrals only to be told that things aren't bad enough. What percent of severe cp cases would you say actually have a GOOD long term outcome?

I also don't agree that children should suffer because of their parents, but I don't believe that you can always identify who will suffer and to what extent. I know many people from middle class and above backgrounds who have MH and emotional health problems, because of their parents. Some arguments are pointless, because like it or not, we have the Human Rights Act.

Dawndonna Sat 11-May-13 10:29:04

1) Don't apologise when I'm told to.
2) Don't ever apologise to eugenecists.
3) Which bit of 'I have read the link, I fully understand it, the figures have been demonstrated to be wrong' Do you not comprehend?

It difficult to measure a "good outcome". I live in Liverpool, as I said a rough part, I grew up here. Life here is very different than in other areas, or other places. We give people the autonomy to live however they choose to, this won't be acceptable to all. In my LA the thresholds are enough (other LA's differ), if education services mirror them, then the child has a chance of a good outcome. I don't want to live in a "Stepford" society. We have to take into account the emotional damage that is done to children when they are removed and their outcomes in Care. It is an on-going balance.

I believe that the world and in particular, our society works well, when it consists of different people with different lifestyles and opinions and we don't try to manufacture "the perfect Human Being" as it is a contradiction of terms, so let's leave it to nature and do what we can to make as many people's lives positive and productive, as possible. We have identified what isn't acceptable and we need to enforce that, whilst still respecting Human Rights.

Spero Sat 11-May-13 11:12:49

This isn't an argument about being on benefits means you can't bring up a child. Lots of people on benefits can and do a brilliant job in hard circumstances.

The problem is not parents on benefits, its parents with utterly chaotic lives, let down by their own parents in turn. Yes, they are usually on benefits because they are usually completely outside mainstream society and employment by virtue of criminal convictions and drug use.

I don't agree with eugenics but there has to be a better way than letting the current situation drift on. One client of mine had nine children in a row, luckily for the last 3 they were removed at birth so there may be a chance for them. The other six not so much.

It is not that social workers are reluctant to to remove children, it is that we have a whole framework of laws in place to give parents chances to parent and a whole lot of people who seem reluctant to accept that sometimes parents can be the worst things to happen to their children and removal needs in certain cases to be very swift and permanent.

Thè difficulty is, as ever, making the right decisions about when that is.

infamouspoo Sat 11-May-13 12:27:34

the SureStart Centres were a step in the right direction. But they are closing sad

Goal Sat 11-May-13 13:14:33

Dawndonna - you clearly got me confused with another poster on this thread hence your slightly ranty tone about benefits, which I did not mention at all. It's a shame you are unable to acknowledge that. I am pleased you have read the link, I thought it was pretty clear in its rebuttals, you have chosen to overlook.

Birds once again how many parents on he cp list with "different lifestyles" would you leave your kids with?

Dawndonna Sat 11-May-13 13:54:34

Goal
Happy to apologise about the benefits stuff. Sorry.
Will also pm you.

pigletmania Sat 11-May-13 14:59:46

There is no other word for them, they are scumbags! Mugged two elderly people, showed no remorse. they even smirked about it. A nice lengthy prison sentence would be fitting to wipe te smirks off their faces

FreudiansSlipper Sat 11-May-13 15:03:14

what if you had heard they had been abused most of their life, in and out of foster homes would you still think they are scumbags or could you look at the bigger picture and see that they have themselves been victims and their anger and resentment, hurt, anger for themselves and others makes them the way they are

Goal Sat 11-May-13 15:56:23

Thank you dawndonna. Apologies likewise for my snidey tone.

Dawndonna Sat 11-May-13 16:00:58
pigletmania Sat 11-May-13 22:47:19

Yes I would Freud they killed a person and showed no remorse. There are plenty of others who have had shit lives who don't go around killing and mugging people. What's more they were not even sorry

pigletmania Sat 11-May-13 22:48:17

The only people my sympathies lie with are their victims and their families

pigletmania Sat 11-May-13 22:51:00

My three nephews and nieces for example were with a mum with severe mental health problems, and alcohol addiction. They witnessed things no child should ever see, and had to fend for themselves. They are now decent adults who who would never ever contemplate doing what these thugs have done

FreudiansSlipper Sat 11-May-13 23:02:19

no one is saying that everyone who has a a difficult childhood becomes a criminal

read a little on those that commit violent crimes how the vast majority have had terrible childhoods, it is not an excuse but it counts to the many reasons why they being failed leads to others being harmed, it's a cycle that that some without support struggle to get out of

There is also the issue of people having a mental illness, no remorse would suggest that but that is no remorse ever because they are unable to feel it

pigletmania Sat 11-May-13 23:06:54

That Could provide an explanation but as you said does Noway excuse it. Can't some people just be plain nasty, there may not be mental health illness.

FreudiansSlipper Sat 11-May-13 23:13:11

I never said all criminals have mental health problems

Yes people can be nasty but there are many reasons why as so much evidence in criminal behaviour shows, though it is easier to just call people and evn worse children scumbags than actually bothering to try and understand the reasons why people act the way they do

pigletmania Sat 11-May-13 23:21:15

Well they are, they committed a dreadful crime and showed no remorse, smirking and feeling quite proud of themselves. There could be underlying explanations to their behaviour, or ter could be none. I am judging on the behaviour, ad ts vile and nasty

JakeBullet Sun 12-May-13 07:00:24

The issue with difficult childhoods is that a child needs at least one caregiver who can meet their needs emotionally. Even a parent with terrible mental health problems can parent effectively depending in the circumstances.
The other thing to look at is the care available in the very early years. Babies who are shown little affection and interaction do much worse in later life than those who are interacted with and shown affection. This is key as in those very early years there is so much brain growth going on.
Not all neglected or abused children will grow into violent teenagers and adults but the risks of them doing so are higher.
Of course the main sympathy has to lie with the victim and her family but if there had been intervention early enough in the lives of these teenagers this might not have occurred. As a society that is what we have to keep in mind...that some people do not and cannot parent and it's their children and eventually society which suffers.

pigletmania Sun 12-May-13 07:29:42

I agree jake, spot on

Ilikethebreeze Sun 12-May-13 08:57:13

Excellent post JakeBullet.

Ilikethebreeze Sun 12-May-13 09:00:22

Which leads me back to the subject heading of the op's.
It would be nice to think they can be rehabilitated,for them, and for society, but I dont think their chances are good.

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