To think that no child should be allowed to ruin the learning of 29 children

(378 Posts)
ReallyTired Wed 08-May-13 09:35:05

My son's year 6 class has been constantly distruped by one or two children. It is unfair that 28 children cannot learn because of the behaviour of one or two.

I feel it really doesn't matter what the reason is for a child who constantly misbehaves (before someone gets out the flame thrower/ violin) the other children have a right to learn in a calm ordered environment. Often badly children do not have learning difficulties or difficult family circumstances.

Or put it another way some children with special needs or a difficult home life have explematory behaviour.

It is not fair that many hard working children have to put up with child X making stupid noises (NOT TOURETTES or any other special need) or constantly shouting out or arguing with the teacher because their parents can't afford private school.

It would be interesting to know what other countries do with children who constantly distrupt the class. (Other than using the cane.)

I believe that Britain's in ablity to deal with low level disruption in the classroom has reduced social mobility.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 09:37:51

YANBU..the school should look after every pupil.

YABU with the nasty flamethrower/violin comment.

O Lord what is with all the goadish twatwankerry in here at the moment.

AtYourCervix Wed 08-May-13 09:41:28

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LIZS Wed 08-May-13 09:42:55

yanbu but I think there is one in almost every Year5/6 class. Not sure about your last comment - dd experienced this in a private school. Other countries wheedle out disruptive/SEN pupils early and put them in a different class/system . Unfortunately this also often means low expectations and attainment.

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Wed 08-May-13 09:45:25

I would change that to no lack of proper support, supervision and control in the classroom should be allowed to disrupt the learning of 29 children.

The issue here is management. If a child is not being managed properly - who is at fault? The child for running riot or the adult for not ensuring that action is taken?

I certainly agree with you that behaviour should be managed effectively and if it is not, then all the children are being let down.

newfavouritething Wed 08-May-13 09:46:24

YABU - my ds had a wonderful afternoon playing in the playground instead of being schooled while the teacher and two TAs tried to persuade the disruptive child down from a tree. Of course the one problem child should have all of the attention, bugger the rest of them!

JeanPaget Wed 08-May-13 09:46:37

"flamethrower/violin" hmm

Maybe putting up with low level disruption will allow your son to learn some tolerance and compassion.

YANBU, but the school needs a robust and adaptable Behaviour Policy in place. Start with the Headteacher and escalate to Governing Body if it hasn't.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 09:46:38

Yes....what Hecs said..that is important thing. .not blaming parenting or backgrounds or any other random stuff

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 09:47:39

Can I save everyone the bother and just write this thread as they always go same way grin

Could you implement a Traffic Light System, Fanjo?

Everyone knows their boundaries and responsibilities then.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 09:50:31

Yes..but it's stuck on red..I wish grin

Minifingers Wed 08-May-13 09:53:18

My ds has ASD. He can be quite disruptive.

He should have one to one support but doesn't get it. For this reason he's likely to leave school without having reached a level in literacy and numeracy which will enable him to function adequately at secondary.

So YANBU, all children should have proper support in school.

However, sometimes even with this support their behaviour will be disruptive to the class. Do you think all children whose behaviour regularly disrupts the learning of the class should be educated separately? Would you be willing to pay towards a massive rise in taxation in order to fund this provision?

Piemother Wed 08-May-13 09:53:24

Yanbu. Your op will be twisted in to snobbery but it isn't hmm

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 09:53:39

People who want to discuss the school's behaviour management over here..<points>

Those who want to say "there is a kid like that at my child's school and they don't have SN just shitty parents and its not fair".over there <points>

Those who want to say "everyone blames SN and there's just no discipline these days kids are little brats"..out of door <boot>

Done grin

Bit of Restorative Discussion then?

Anyone who makes crass and sweeping statements has to draw a picture to communicate how a) they feel b) how they think that makes everyone else feel.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 09:54:31

No it won't be twisted.

Thats up there with the flamethrower/violin comment.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 09:55:14

Theres a sin bin for those who want to make nippy comments like "I will be flamed here but.. <insert comment now>"

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 09:55:56

Finally..I will get it out of the way..

Who do I think I am and why do I bring SN into everything <flames self>

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 09:56:18

That's the thread done for me grin

Tailtwister Wed 08-May-13 09:56:24

YANBU OP. One pupil's behaviour should not be allowed to disrupt the learning of the entire class. The teacher is there to teach, not be continually engaged in the discipline of one or two pupils at the expense of the rest. I presume the school has a policy to deal with disruptive behaviour? I would be contacting the Head teacher to see what's being put in place to deal with this. Every single child has a right to an education that is true, but not at the detriment of everyone else.

Oh dear lord.

Second time in two days I'm speechless. And that NEVER happens.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 09:57:06

Beertricks..you sound more sensible ..as always smile

WilsonFrickett Wed 08-May-13 09:58:42

How do you know the child doesn't have SN?
How do you know the child doesn't have fully-funded 1:1 support which the school withholds from him and uses to do other things?
How do you know the child isn't dealing with terrible family circumstances, like a bereavement?
How do you know the child's parents can't afford private school? (And you do know that private schools don't tend to manage bad behaviour - or indeed SNs - they simply kick the kids out)
How do you know this is down to the child and not awful teaching? Poor behaviour management? Bullying? Goading? Scapegoating?

I would suggest you don't know. Actually.

I just have an interest in Behaviour Management policies bit sad really

Applied well there is very little disruptive behaviour that needs to be continuous and disruptive in the long term. Applied badly and children get stuck in a loop of Misbehave/Told Off/Sent Out/Start All Over Again.

MidniteScribbler Wed 08-May-13 10:04:27

Perhaps being in the class will teach your child some tolerance and consideration for others. Lord knows he won't be learning it from you.

Poledra Wed 08-May-13 10:04:42

When I were a lass, way back when, there was a peripatetic school psychologist who visited our school at least once a fortnight. She had a roster of children that she saw. Some of these children had SEN, some had behavioural issues (the roots of these issues were many and varied, from crap parenting to dreadful life events and everything else). Her purpose was to help these children, to give them coping strategies, to help them achieve positive behaviour and therefore actually start to learn something at school.

You don't get this anymore, as they were too expensive. Any parent of a child with SEN can tell you just how fucking hard it is to get any help for their child, despite clear evidence for the need for it. A child who is poorly parented is unlikely to have parents who will fight for their needs.

Our lack of provision for the right help for these children is what is at fault. And I don't really blame the teachers for this either - they are doing the best they can (in most cases) with the limited resources they have to hand.

Minifingers Wed 08-May-13 10:07:33

The OP reminds me of my SIL, who was outraged at her child PFB having to learn ALONGSIDE CHILDREN WITH SPECIAL NEEDS.

"It is not fair that many hard working children have to put up with child X making stupid noises (NOT TOURETTES or any other special need)"

My son has asd and yes - makes stupid noises. I assume that most parents of other children are not aware that he has a diagnosis of ASD, because luckily kids like him are not made to wear a special badge so that parents know his behaviour is 'not his fault'. Or mine. grin However, when I read comments like the OP's it makes me wonder whether I should buy him a t-shirt like this.

Sparhawk Wed 08-May-13 10:12:19

Send them all to borstal /Daily Mail.

jellybeans Wed 08-May-13 10:12:26

YANBU Is your child in my DCs class? I am fed up of two boys who disrupt the class for everyone else. One child just has parents who thinks it is funny and give him no boundaries at all. The other uses a diagnosis as an excuse for everything even violence and bullying he just says,' I have ..... so you can't tell me off'. His parents also say that to anyone who complains..Yes he needs support etc because of his issues but that doesn't mean bad behaviour (extreme racism, violence, calling the girls extreme sexual derogatory comments) should be tolerated as well as daily violence and bullying to the rest of the class. Any violence and bullying they should be excluded until they can behave. Not fair to affect the kids who are behaving.

BumpingFuglies Wed 08-May-13 10:12:53

Isn't this a teaching/management issue? Or shall we just herd the naughty kids into a corner so that the good ones can get on?

hazeyjane Wed 08-May-13 10:14:05

Yes to what Hecsy and Fanjo and all the other sensible and tolerant posters have said.

Ptttsshaaaawwwww to the flamethrower/violin comment

Round of applause to Fanjo for managing to commit flamethrower hara kirismile

jellybeans, what do the school say?

Any racist comments have to be logged and included in the Headteacher's report to Governors. They are monitored by the LEA and if unaddressed and ongoing the SMT will be pulled up on it.

The bottom line is that schools have to fulfil the needs of all their pupils. If they cannot put support in place for this child and other children are subjected to violence, racism and sexual comments then I'd not consider it a fit place for my own child to be.

elliejjtiny Wed 08-May-13 10:18:57

My DS2 and a little boy in the class above both have SN. They are expected to sit next to each other in assembly and work together when the 2 classes get together for group activities. They can't stand each other. My DS is frightened of the other child and the other child finds DS's behaviour frustrating. They both have hypermobility and sensory issues but DS hobbles around slowly and carefully while the other child is being assessed for ADHD and has a tendancy to do everything at high speed. It's frustrating for them and for me and for the other child's mum. But it's not my DS's fault or the other child's. I do blame the school and the LEA a bit though for not giving both children the support they need.

OP mostly YANBU but you are blaming the wrong people here. Children who are that disruptive that they are affecting the other childrens learning should be receiving proper support, although in most cases what children need and what they get are very different things.

jellybeans Wed 08-May-13 10:19:44

'
The OP reminds me of my SIL, who was outraged at her child PFB having to learn ALONGSIDE CHILDREN WITH SPECIAL NEEDS.'

That is terrible and I heard the same at our school sadly. But we are not talking about children with SN in general but children who are extremely aggressive and violent/disruptive. My child was put through hell, why is that right? If your DD was called a Crack Whore or your DS assaulted in the face with a pencil every day or bullied due to a disfigurement/disability DAILY how would you feel?

There are many DC with special needs in my DC class, my own DC were SN in the infants. But behavioural issues still needs to be kept on top of no matter what.

angelos02 Wed 08-May-13 10:20:26

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jellybeans Wed 08-May-13 10:21:46

'jellybeans, what do the school say?'

they just say they are dealing with it but then it happens again.. They have been excluded several times but not permanently. Many of the parents, if not all, are fed up.

' If they cannot put support in place for this child and other children are subjected to violence, racism and sexual comments then I'd not consider it a fit place for my own child to be.'

Totally agree.

jellybeans Wed 08-May-13 10:22:00

Luckily mine are leaving in a few weeks.

PoppadomPreach Wed 08-May-13 10:24:52

I don't understand these threads. Why does it always have to be about SN (I.e. regardless of what point OP is trying to make, it is seen as somehow SN bashing, where in many cases, it is not)

Surely, sometimes, there are naughty kids? No SN, no particularly bad home circumstances, just ones where perhaps their parents have not taught them boundaries, not taught them to play nicely, share etc.

Sometimes kids are just naughty, and their parents will not back up any punishments the schools administer as they couldn't possibly tolerate anyone trying to control their precious little darling?

Surely it is exasperating, for the other pupils, the parents and the teachers to have to constantly devote their time to dealing with this? I think in these cases, the parents really, really have to be brought on board and start backing up any discipline handed out? It is absolutely crap that kids like this suck up precious teacher time away from all the other kids, including those with SN.

The majority don't have to put up with it if strategies are in place, angelos. And sticking all the disruptive pupils in a holding class isn't serving their needs.

Probably just as well, jellybeans, if the school are unwilling to implement decent behaviour management.

Poppadom, you don't know what is a result of 'SN' and what isn't.

Disruptive behaviour is a 'need' as much as any other anyway.

maddening Wed 08-May-13 10:29:36

Surely you shouldn't generalise as each case is so different - so what are the specific details if your dc's class issue? Do you have definite knowledge about the dc that are disrupting the class? Could it be down to the inability of the teacher to maintain order? What has been done so far?

PeneloPeePitstop Wed 08-May-13 10:30:29

Of COURSE, OP. You read their school files so you KNOW there's no SN involved, don't you?

Or maybe not. Stop being so pigging ignorant.

Bad behaviour can also be masking an educational SN in many cases. If you can't engage with the Topic, or writing, or reading, or numbers swim about in front of your eyes then it's easier to piss about in class than admit it. Too many children get left behind by KS2.

LIZS Wed 08-May-13 10:31:43

I think this thread has got sidetracked somewhat. In dd's case the culprits definitely do not have SEN, they are simply louder, attention seeking or perhaps "loveable rogues" some of whom can do well academically , musically for example when they choose to apply themselves, and it seems their classroom behaviour gets overlooked as a result.

Sparhawk Wed 08-May-13 10:33:14

PoppadomPreach

Why does it always have to be about SN

Sometimes there might just be 'naughty' children.

Often, though, children who are disruptive, as people have previously pointed, have a SEN, that causes them to be disruptive and I'm unsure how anyone can say that they know for a fact a child doesn't have one, even an undiagnosed one, or how that they know they don't have issues in their home life.

As people have said, some children can't help that they disrupt the class, but, clearly, as angelos02 just pointed out, it's because we're too inclusive obsessed and those kids should just be gagged so that they don't upset all the precious NORMAL kids, huh. angry

Sparhawk Wed 08-May-13 10:33:29

Ooops angry

CheesyPoofs Wed 08-May-13 10:33:43

There's always been naughty disruptive kids in school. I remember the 'naughty boy' in my class at primary school in the early 80s.

School is about more than just academic learning - perhaps it teaches you tolerance, empathy and understanding too.

LegoAcupuncture Wed 08-May-13 10:33:44

grin at your self flaming Fanjo! You've made my day.

Each child has the right to work in a calm enviroment. However, due to funding or lack of it sometimes is not the case. YANBU to expect it.

Well it shouldn't LIZS. Lobby the Head to make sure it doesn't continue to do so. Highlight Behaviour in Parent consultations. Get it brought up at Well being Gov meetings (or equivalent).

Sparhawk Wed 08-May-13 10:36:27

LIZS they do well academically? Clearly that means they don't have a SEN then. hmm

SacreBlue Wed 08-May-13 10:38:53

From a different angle I think it's inevitable to have some disruption in a group of 28 children, just as you would in a group of 28 adults.

As long as the other children are safe and the school is making a concerted effort to handle any disruption, then I think it is actually part and parcel of learning.

We need our kids to learn how to deal with situations that may arise later in life and dealing with people of all ilk and behaviour is part of that.

Most offices have a 'joker' or 'gossiper' or 'grumpy moaner' and most often the rest of the office still has to get on with the work. If the person is creating a danger, or is being racist etc then the management usually will deal with it - as the school does/should.

I think social mobility may be more affected by the influence of inter generational educational attitudes and abilities for example areas where parents left school early to work and so have either less confidence in the value of education or less ability to help their children outside of school (or both)

Patchouli Wed 08-May-13 10:40:07

I just wish DD's teachers had a better strategy than to sit the disruptive ones next to the quiet ones.
She asked me the other day if she's going to be sat next to so-and-so for 6 years (this is the 3rd year).

SacreBlue Wed 08-May-13 10:40:08

Actually that should read all the children are safe

SacreBlue Wed 08-May-13 10:43:41

You could ask if they could come up with a better strategy patch? If you feel your dd is never getting a chance to work quietly.

I agree with peer learning but I don't think a child should be made to feel responsible for another's learning at the expense of their own.

LIZS Wed 08-May-13 10:44:00

No of course it shouldn't be overlooked but sometimes it seems easier and more pragmatic for school to turn a blind eye. hmm Did talk to deputy about it in year 5, classes shuffled around for Year 6 but setting meant dd still had lessons with some and behaviour continued. Yes I know SEN children can be bright (ds is one such) but that was not a factor here.

ReallyTired Wed 08-May-13 10:44:53

Lots of children with special needs do behave well. They should not have their learning distrupted anymore than an NT child.

Some distruptive children know perfectly well how to behave. Many of these children do behave well outside school. One of the children has been to our house on several occassions.

"Could it be down to the inability of the teacher to maintain order? What has been done so far?"

The teacher is failing to keep order. However the children are choosing to behave badly. (Ie. humming or coughing while she is speaking)

The children who misbehave are sent to another class. However that punishment is not working as they repeat their awful behavior the following day. I feel that log of bad behaviour should be kept and punishments should be escalated in severity. (Ultimately a child who chooses to persistantly hum should be made an example of permamently excluded.)

It would be lovely if we all had wonderful super teachers who never had discipline problems. However we have to make do with the best teachers we can find. Teaching is difficult job and we should not allow ill mannered brats to make their job harder.

Many children choose to behave badly. They should be made to regret that choice.

zzzzz Wed 08-May-13 10:45:16

Children who are disruptive are being mismanaged. There are avenues to obtain all the funding and training required to deal with the situation, so approach the head and ask why this is not being put in place.

You know those swanky new computers and the pretty playground stuff....well perhaps you need to think about how your school is spending it's money?

jellybeans Wed 08-May-13 10:46:26

'perhaps it teaches you tolerance, empathy and understanding too'.

What if you re being relentlessly bullied by this person though, perhaps racially? Whatever the underlying reason surely this is not acceptable..

SamuelWestsMistress Wed 08-May-13 10:47:14

Sometimes children are just badly behaved. YANBU.

Yes, Patchouli. I had to ask that DS be moved after being continaully stabbed with a pencil/kicked under the desk. I pointed out that after a term it was unlikely that "Sitting on the Good table" was helping any. Although apparently the child had got quieter, so a result of sorts hmm

Before anyone says anything about hypocrisy etc, the child was only moved to the other side of the table, out of pencil-poking range.
Not particularly good classroom management, but the teacher has left now.

momb Wed 08-May-13 10:50:21

YANBU. In an ideal world all children will be provided with the type of learning environment that suits their learning type/needs best.

My YD was the child who sang and danced at the back during quiet carpet time...who asked a million questions a lesson throughout foundation stage....who refused to open a reading book throughout reception and year 1. She was very disruptive in school and spent half the reception year sitting outside the HT office. No SEN, no reason we could see why she just couldn't/wouldn't conform to the accepted behavioural standard in school. She had some sessions with the SEN teacher on being a good friend, thinking of others, social cues etc but finished after a term because it wasn't that she didn't know what was required (she managed perfectly well in social situations and home life), she just didn't do it. It was a very difficult time: at home she was fine, at school she was really disruptive (though not violent), and I guess that if we were the kind of family who used racist/sexist/bad language she would have repeated it all.
She turned everything around in Year 2: decided that she wanted to learn to read, caught up and passed her targets. We will never know whether any other children who were affected by her behaviour have caught up.
With hindsight, i should have taken her out of school until she wanted to formally learn, but of course that was never an option.

wonderful super teachers who never had discipline problems

Or ordinary teachers backed up by a Behaviour Management Policy that is applicable across the school, consistent and understood by all pupils and staff.

Startail Wed 08-May-13 10:50:30

YANBU
Every child deserves an education.

Sadly a lack of trained TAs, a lack of space and staff to with draw children and closure of special schools, no ed Phys and many other issues make this impossible.

The only provision for SNs withdrawal being a dark dusty corner of the cloakroom or a tiny cupboard is not good enough. One untrained TA trying to help a whole table of DCs with wildly different needs doesn't work. Often quiet children who need academic support get stuck with disruptive DCs who need watching.

I helped in one class where one girl got kicked continuously by a DC who just couldn't cope with mainstream school. I was a student I couldn't say anything. They needed another TA rather than trying to survive with one assigned to the hearing impaired unit who wasn't really supposed to help.

jellybeans Wed 08-May-13 10:51:12

I know a teacher who used to tell the bullied victims to try to 'make friends' (with the bully) to prevent them being bullied!

CheesyPoofs Wed 08-May-13 10:52:46

Bullying is different and absolutely should be unacceptable.

OP isn't talking about bullying though, she's talking about disruptive children in class.

I agree it sounds like a discipline problem.

There's disruptive people at my work by the way. I suppose schools are one way of teaching people how to cope with work in a big open plan office grin

Pigsmummy Wed 08-May-13 10:53:20

This isn't new is it, I am nearly 40 and remember the 1/2 disruptive children in class driving the poor teacher mad, right from primary to when I left school.

WilsonFrickett Wed 08-May-13 10:55:18

Seriously, you think a child should be excluded for humming?

You need to be speaking to your HT or whatever and getting this issue sorted out. This is very poor teaching indeed.

BeyonceCastle Wed 08-May-13 11:00:42

disrupted
badly behaved
exemplary
disrupt
inability

Throws flame. Slopes off to pedants' corner.

I live in a different country btw.
Even less provision or support for individual differences.
Kids who fail resit the whole year.
At secondary get one of three labels 1. uni material 2. office drone material 3. manual labour or dole and a 'further education' to go with the stereotype.

You could become a parent volunteer and offer to do some 1 on 1 with kids in the class.
You could get some private tuition for your kid and/or support them intensively at home in their learning.
You could ask to observe your own impeccably behaved cherub in class and clap at how awesome and angelic they are.

Or you can bitch on MN. Your choice.

FuckThisShit Wed 08-May-13 11:00:49

Gosh, you sound like a lovely person.

CheesyPoofs Wed 08-May-13 11:01:08

God I wish my colleague would be sacked for the tuneless hum she does all bloody day driving me to distraction

NB. I don't really but wish she would shut up!

GiraffesAndButterflies Wed 08-May-13 11:02:36

gringrin Fanjo for the flaming harikari
gringrin hazeyjane for coming up with that term!

<<misses point of thread>>

ReallyTired Wed 08-May-13 11:03:04

"Seriously, you think a child should be excluded for humming? "

It would be a totally failure to respond to normal discipline. The majority of secondary schools do have the ablity to permamently exclude for constant low level distruption, although such exclusions take a very long time to happen.

In secondary school situation.

Humming would restort in C1 (consequence level1) a telling off from the teacher

Three C1 in a lesson results in a detention (C2) and possibly removal from the classroom to internal isolation.

More than three detentions in a week results in a day internal isolation (C4)

More than certain numbers of C4s in a term results in suspension and a readmittance meeting (C5)

Ultimately a child who is constantly getting C5s should be moved to different provision. (Managed transfer/ permamently excluded)

In many secondary schools a child who persistantly hums could in theory be permamently excluded, but it doesn't happen in reality. Usually external help is sort long before that stage.

OhLori Wed 08-May-13 11:26:17

YANBU! My goodness, the violins are out!

FWIW, I went to primary school in the late 60s and early 70s. There were simply *no disruptive children*hmm shock confused. Whether that's because the teachers were better or the children were better behaved I have no idea.

PolterGoose Wed 08-May-13 11:31:09

Fanjo grin

Loa Wed 08-May-13 11:31:56

I agree with the sentiment - as a DC whose dyslexia went undiagnosed throughout school but because I was quiet and well behaved got sat to the naughty disruptive DC - I heard a lot about tolerance and how I should learn to deal with it.

It didn't do me any good - I'm sure many of the disruptive DC did have SEN issues - however making it my problem just meant I had yet more issues to get over by myself.

In practice there is always going to be some level of disruption - even my DC school which has a huge number of support staff and smaller rooms available can still struggle on occasions.

Yanbu, i had this growing up at junior school and it severely affected my learning as i could not concentrate. I believe children that misbehave in class should have some sort of isolation in another room with the other misbehaving children from other classes, that way everyone gets to learn, because after all that is what you are in school for.
Why should the minority ruin things for the majority that choose to learn? So 27 children suffer due to 2 naughty children and that is ok? (special needs children disregarded)

ReallyTired Wed 08-May-13 11:34:44

"
FWIW, I went to primary school in the late 60s and early 70s. There were simply *no disruptive children*"

They had the cane in the late 60s and early 70s. There was a different power balance in the past and teachers were given more respect by parents.

If children played up as badly as a few do today then they would have been hit. If the child then whined to their parents about being hit then they might have got smacked again.

In the 60s and 70s there were more EBD special schools, but classes were far bigger and there were no TAs.

I don't want a return to the cane, but it would be interesting to know how other countries manage discipline. I know that the US, France and Germany use the threat of keeping a child down a year, but american schools aren't better behaved than UK schools.

OpheliasWeepingWillow Wed 08-May-13 11:39:24

Well I think YANBU but... That's because I am utterly selfish when I come to my dd and happy to admit it.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 11:41:25

"My goodness the violins are out"

Miiaoouuww

PolterGoose Wed 08-May-13 11:45:35

I don't think any children should be 'disregarded' pumpkin hmm

All children deserve an education. All children should be adequately supported to make the most of their learning opportunities.

Most children will behave, they will comply and will never need any intervention or extra interventions, for these the behaviour management policies are irrelevant. For the children who do present with behavioural problems in class the behaviour management policies are not working, so they need a different, responsive and creative approach. But, while the children with the greatest needs spend more and more time with the least trained staff what hope is there? Some TAs are fab, but it is madness that the most complex, demanding and challenging children spend large parts of their school life being 'taught' (if they're lucky) by non-teaching staff.

I also don't know about others, but when I'm working or studying I have a drink handy, have regular snacks, I fidget and move around, I may drift off looking out the window and reflect on what I'm doing, children are expected to sit still, are restricted to often quite confined space in small airless classrooms, can only eat twice a school day, get told off for fidgeting or looking in the wrong direction etc etc. we have completely unrealistic and frankly stupid expectations of children that we do not have of adults.

IfNotNowThenWhen Wed 08-May-13 11:46:37

I don't much like the tome of the OP, but I can see her point.
My secondary school was dogged by terrible behaviour managment, and some classes were just total chaos.
Mainly due to ineffectual teachers/behaviour managment strategies.
I learned basically nothing at high school and left by 16.
Most of the kids who were disruptive, were generally bright, lazy, bored, and caused havoc because they could.
OK, fine. It was me. I was disruptive. I have no real excuse.
Can I also just say that PoppadomPreach is an excellent nickname.(Appropos of nowt)

VonHerrBurton Wed 08-May-13 11:53:00

The chances are that even if your dc have gone through an idyllic, blissfully calm 7 primary years, they will get to high school and there will be all manner of 'disruptive' pupils there.

They're not going away, nothings going to change so im afraid they will just gave to learn to tolerate it, if its low level messing about, humming, farting, giggling....whatever. Obviously a line is crossed when racial, physical or sexual abuse is happening.

What would you do with the permanentley excluded pupil? Send him/her to someone else's school to be disruptive there? What's the answer?

Fwiw the two most disruptive boys in ds's class were pulled out and enrolled in private school.

Wishwehadgoneabroad Wed 08-May-13 12:03:26

Isn't this a teaching/management issue?

Of course, it's the teacher's fault! grin Silly me.

Hence why we have an issue with badly behaved children in this country. Behaviour (acceptable/not acceptable/limits of etc) is learnt at home.

Back in the 70's, 80's (as someone else commented above), you were likely to get in trouble twice if you were in trouble at school.

Now the parents automatically side with their child, because no way could their little darling possibly have done something awful.

OP YANBU. Teachers are sick of it too generally. No back up from HT's or governors and kids are generally allowed to get away with murder.

RubyGates Wed 08-May-13 12:05:00

You may have a point OP, but they way you pitched your idea won't go down well here. Language and key-words are everything on MN.

I have no idea how inclusivity in the classroom has improved the life-chance of the children who would have otherwise languished in SBUs and I'd love to know. I would also like to know how the life-chances of the majority of the pupils have changed since the change in educational ethos.

I have noticed an upswing in disruptive behaviour in the under 5's groups that I visit because they are so easily distracted by the "silly" behaviour of just one child. There seems to be a leaning towards not leading disruptive children into more sensible behaviour patterns, often meaning that a whole session is a pointless waste of time for all of us.

I can easily extrapolate this kind of atmosphere into a reception/year one classroom and agree with you that young children need good models to help them with their behaviour, not "tolerated disruption" in the name of PC inclusivity. It fails both the majority of the children who are learning nothing, and the disruptees who clearly need more guidance and help with their learning.

Many modern classsrooms seem to be an exercise in benign child enclosure rather than education.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 12:06:23

There are some good and sensible points about schools and behaviour management here.

But how nasty is it to mention violins, when people talk about their children's needs or problems they have had with school.

SmugViolinMentioner is a handy new descriptor for the arsehole spreadsheet.

Yes..I sound 14..before someone says that.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 12:08:29

It's not about "language and key words", but general attitude.

How many more ways to belittle peoples objections to crappy threads?

RubyGates Wed 08-May-13 12:10:01

You have to say the right things in the right way, otherwise your post is picked to pieces and derailled and many valid points are lost both in the OP and any resutling discourse.

I've seen it again and again.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 12:12:31

Its good to use the right words.

But its best if you say the right things because you actually mean them..with no digs about being PC etc.

Which usually happens.

Kiriwawa Wed 08-May-13 12:13:56

If you met my DS at your house, he would be well-behaved. If you saw him in the classroom, he'd be badly behaved - getting up/wandering off/shouting out.

He has SN but you wouldn't know that. I expect you'd blame it on the fact that I'm a single parent hmm

randgirl Wed 08-May-13 12:15:36

Im not in the UK so schooling is a bit different here. Generally speaking, special needs children are enrolled at a special needs school (private if parents can afford, and public if not. If a public place is needed the child will have place in mainstream schooling until a more suitable place is found by education department). But i think the term 'special needs' is used differently here. My ds has diagnosis of ADhD 7 years ago and is not classed as in a special needs situation. My dd on the other hand had special support for 2 years with one teacher at school with suspected learning disability. She repeated a year and is now longer on support as its no longer required as she was emotionally immature and repeating the year has helped her so much.

But back to disruptive children.. in our schools if the child is disruptive there are disciplinary procedures which are put into place. Each school has code of conduct and in this conduct it states that each child has the right to work in an undisruptive environment. THe procedures are followed by if it is found that these procedures dont 'resolve' the behaviour then the child will be referred to an educational psychologist and they will be tested etc. Another placement will be applied for if necessary. In high school it is more difficult. I see on ds coc that if they have a certain amount of de-merits they will be asked to leave the school. (300 or more) There is a whole list of things that falls under the expulsion catergory. I think this is one of the reasons that home schooling is becoming more popular.

stargirl1701 Wed 08-May-13 12:17:47

Every child belongs to their local community, their local school. They are part of that microcosm of society and should be welcomed.

If the issue is behavioural, then it is your responsibility, as a citizen of that society, to support the parents and school. I have found, as a teacher, social exclusion in the community can be an enormous factor.

If the issue is an additional support need, it is your responsibility, as a citizen of that society, to have some compassion and teach your children to have some too.

Human beings respond best when integrated into the community to which they belong. These are children you are talking about. Children. They have a capacity for change that is beyond the vast majority of adults.

Learning tolerance, compassion and how to support others in need is as, if not more, important as academic progress.

You should go into school and lend your weight to finding this child more support in class. Parents have enormous power - use it. Campaign to get a TA for this child.

All children belong to all of us.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 12:20:19

Stargirl you just restored my faith in human nature thankssmile

Loa Wed 08-May-13 12:21:08

The chances are that even if your dc have gone through an idyllic, blissfully calm 7 primary years, they will get to high school and there will be all manner of 'disruptive' pupils there.

My first two years of secondary were blissful - they did two streams I was top sets and while they'd be odd disruption everyone did want to learn and could behave themselves.

I only had one class a G.C.S.E where I had to cope with disruptive other students and the teacher managed them very successfully usually. Under supply teacher we had for a few months these lesson did get to be hell.

Plus being able to seat myself where I wanted and having different teachers with differing management techniques did mean I got a break from constant disruption and at that age I could manage my own learning to an extent.

I think everyone would like all school child to not have to deal with disruptions - but the younger the DC the less able I feel they are able to cope with it especially when they are learning core skills that everything else is built on.

ouryve Wed 08-May-13 12:22:52

Yes, they would be so much better behaved if they ate school dinners hmm

Kiriwawa Wed 08-May-13 12:41:09

Yes, thank you stargirl.

I wish everyone felt that my DS (who is pretty bright by all accounts) deserved access to education in the same way as their NT children do.

Loa Wed 08-May-13 12:50:01

to have some compassion and teach your children to have some too.

It's not that I don't have compassion - I've seen how hard families with children with SEN have to fight to get help -I do but I also have experience of being a child who had to cope with daily disruption while having issues of my own and having most adults telling me that it was my problem to cope with.

I do teach my DC to have compassion - however one of my DC is extremely anxious and very sensitive to noise. There have been a few times when usually her new teacher sit her next to disruptive DC to make them behave better. It makes her extremely distressed - I found nothing we say seems to change this - her teachers usually move her fairly quickly to the quietest place because her distress mounts to the point where she becomes disruptive by being near hysterical in class.

There does seem to be the assumption that the children being disrupted have no issues of their own and should just accept the disruption.

I do agree that what ever is causing the disruption SEN or other things it is a issue with the school managing the behavior.

Dinkysmummy Wed 08-May-13 12:59:34

I had written out a post, but I'm with fanjo here... I might as well flame myself rather than post it.

I'll never change the opinions of posters like angelos and there are not enough lovely people like stargirl in this world.

So OP YANBU you are entitled to your own opinion whether or not it is ethical or politically correct.

All posters have to look themselves in the mirror and see themselves and know in their hearts whether or not they are decent human beings.

I'm not perfect. My heart is in the right place though.

Sirzy Wed 08-May-13 13:07:26

I don't like the tone in the OP that appears to be looking to generalise and blame the child without any idea of the causes for that behaviour.

The issue is that schools don't have the resources (people and training) to effectively deal with the behaviour whilst also ensuring that other pupils get the help and support they need.

hazeyjane Wed 08-May-13 13:07:37

FWIW, I went to primary school in the late 60s and early 70s. There were simply *no disruptive children*

My dad was a teacher throughout that time, and can I just say, on his behalf, that that is simply bollocks.

WilsonFrickett Wed 08-May-13 13:09:09

Luffs Dinkys
Hear-hears hazey
Passes Fanjo the fire blanket.

hazeyjane Wed 08-May-13 13:10:23

Every child belongs to their local community, their local school. They are part of that microcosm of society and should be welcomed.

If the issue is behavioural, then it is your responsibility, as a citizen of that society, to support the parents and school. I have found, as a teacher, social exclusion in the community can be an enormous factor.

If the issue is an additional support need, it is your responsibility, as a citizen of that society, to have some compassion and teach your children to have some too.

Human beings respond best when integrated into the community to which they belong. These are children you are talking about. Children. They have a capacity for change that is beyond the vast majority of adults.

Learning tolerance, compassion and how to support others in need is as, if not more, important as academic progress.

You should go into school and lend your weight to finding this child more support in class. Parents have enormous power - use it. Campaign to get a TA for this child.

All children belong to all of us.

thanks for that post, Stargirl, I had to repost it in bold, because you said it so well.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 13:12:03

<hides under it>

Dinkysmummy Wed 08-May-13 13:12:59

flowers for stargirl grin

Dinkysmummy Wed 08-May-13 13:13:20

grin fanjo

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 13:18:30

You really can't blame the teacher for this.

As you say, some children choose to behave badly. They probably have a reason for this being the most attractive option to them, but it is wrong that other children have to put up with it and have their learning disrupted.

In most cases, the teacher will be as frustrated as anyone else. There is only so much they can do, and even if they have a head teacher that is as supportive as possible, they are still at the mercy of the LA and other services.

Exclusion is rarely a solution, it just shifts the problem. Many secondary schools have to take a child that has been expelled from elsewhere if they expel one of their own.

Obviously, the ideal would be that extra staff are provided so that disruptive children can be educated in isolation away from engaged pupils, but that costs a lot of money, which has to come from somewhere. We don't want to pay more tax, and we don't want other essential services to be reduced to pay for it. So unfortunately, we just have to put up with it, and as parents do our best to mitigate the effects of it on our own children.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 13:21:45

I am suppressing a tear at your post, clouds, it is just dripping with the milk of human kindness <sniff>

2old2beamum Wed 08-May-13 13:23:01

Hazeyjane you are so right, being roughyly around your DF's age I can
confirm when I was in school in the early 50's (as a pupil) there were some very disruptive children. Did not harm my education.

OP and others where is your compassion? Every child has a beauty spot please look for it, your life will be happier

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 13:23:44

"It would cost too much tax to just totally get rid of the disruptive children so our little darlings will just have to muddle along as well as we can"..

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 13:34:01

What would have been your preferred response Fanjo?

Should I be telling the OP that she is wrong for being frustrated at a frustrating situation?

Or should I talk bullshit like others on this thread that seem to believe that children can learn tolerance and compassion for their classmates when they are not being shown any themselves? To learn those things, you need to be shown those things IMO.

No disruptive children in the 70s? Far from true ime, despite a quite liberal use of the Slipper and a row of chairs outside the Head's office. I remember feeling really sorry for one boy - he was always there, always at the front of assembly having strips torn off him verbally, often truanted, always blamed for things he hadn't even done.

A whole class 'underclass' just left to rot. sad

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 13:36:12

No, no do be open about how you feel clouds.

iamsmokingafag Wed 08-May-13 13:36:32

this could very possibly this be a child with SEN/SN who does not have a dx or whose difficulties haven't been accurately identified.

No dx does not equal no SN - but I'm sure the OP is aware of that.
However the OP has not explained why she is so positive that child X does not have sn/sen.

Disregarding SEN/SN, this behaviour could well be exacerbated by an ineffective/inexperienced teacher or a teacher who is isn't backed up by senior management (more likely).

'I feel that log of bad behaviour should be kept and punishments should be escalated in severity. '
You really think that your log of naughtiness will help the child to change their behaviour?

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 13:36:50

Maybe some of the people here who don't show compassion weren't shown any either then, poor things.

iamsmokingafag Wed 08-May-13 13:37:21

'Or should I talk bullshit like others on this thread that seem to believe that children can learn tolerance and compassion for their classmates when they are not being shown any themselves? To learn those things, you need to be shown those things IMO.'

the irony grin

Loa Wed 08-May-13 13:37:24

Startail Wed 08-May-13 10:50:30
I helped in one class where one girl got kicked continuously by a DC who just couldn't cope with mainstream school. I was a student I couldn't say anything.

I had the sheer joy of being the DC suffering near constant kicks and hits and verbal abuse as I was sat next to the most disruptive DC in the class. I was 7-8 at the time he was spectacular bad it was because I was quiet and well behaved and I think my parents made less fuss than others.

I was miserable and hated going to school the adults around me knew and did nothing to help me.

However much compassion I have for families and children with difficulties none of my DC will be going though what I did.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 13:41:04

Thanks Fanj, I will. smile

A log could help in that it will put pressure on the head to get support if they aren't already, and if they are then it will help them put pressure on other support services.

However, there is a disruptive child in the class I work in. We have kept a log for over a year, but it doesn't get read by anyone who could make a difference. We have pushed and pushed and pushed for support from the LEA, they have been about as much help as a chocolate fire guard.

'I feel that log of bad behaviour should be kept and punishments should be escalated in severity. '

Tbf, that can underpin more severe and sustained bad behaviour and can be used to support the need for funding a 1-1 TA.
ABC charts form part of a Behaviour Policy.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 13:42:15

You work in a class?

And would like to bin off all the disruptive pupils elsewhere except you wouldn't pay the tax?

Oh dear.

jellybeans Wed 08-May-13 13:43:13

stargirl1701 I disagree if it turns into extreme bullying, racial abuse etc to the other child/children. Why should they tolerate that?

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 13:45:52

No, I don't want to 'bin off all the disruptive pupils elsewhere'. hmm

What I want, in an ideal world, is for children who can't or won't behave appropriately in a classroom, to receive the attention and support they need. I also want every other child to be educated in a classroom where they are allowed to concentrate on what they are doing.

What's wrong with that?

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 13:47:58

Nothing is wrong with that.

It is totally different to your original comment.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 13:48:51

"Obviously, the ideal would be that extra staff are provided so that disruptive children can be educated in isolation away from engaged pupils, but that costs a lot of money, which has to come from somewhere. We don't want to pay more tax, and we don't want other essential services to be reduced to pay for it. So unfortunately, we just have to put up with it,"

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 13:51:10

No, it isn't.

You may have read it differently to the way it was intended to come across, or maybe I put my point across badly, but all I meant in either post was that children who are disruptive should be in a different classroom during lessons. I still think they should be together at all other times of the school day.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 13:52:51

well i do hope that is true smile

Dinkysmummy Wed 08-May-13 13:53:24

I'm going out on a branch here...

So those with non SN kids and have very little empathy for these children, want inclusion to end and all challenging SEN/SN children (because behavioural difficulties are in fact classed as SEN when they are long term and unchanging), to be put in special classrooms or schools as long as they don't have to pay extra tax.

All those who either have dc with SN and those who have the required empathy to see these children with SN as human beings who should get the support they need to stay in mainstream have to argue with those unable to get past the fact that their poor perfect DC have to mingle with children with SN who may be a little disruptive at times. (as I'm sure these kids don't get in a 9am and start humming and repeatedly hum until 3.20pm)

Wow....
And I thought we moved on as a society hmm

Sirzy Wed 08-May-13 13:53:50

Putting them in a different classroom doesn't solve anything though does it, just moves the issue elsewhere.

Unless it is in the best interest of that child to be taught in a specialist unit then support should be put in place to help that child in the classroom not just shifting the problem elsewhere.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 13:55:00

although Dinky's solution is far kinder and better smile

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 13:55:18

(dinky's and sirzy's)

PoppadomPreach Wed 08-May-13 13:56:22

But Fanjo - in an ideal world, we all agree that EVERy child has his/her precise needs met, and everyone is taught together, and no-one feels they are being treated differently because of their particular need.

But how can we actually achieve this?

I think we have to be as pragmatic as possible and whilst striving to be as inclusive and welcoming to as many children as possible into mainstream education, we have to realise that in some cases it is simply not possible and some sort of streaming, as undesirable as it is, is the only solution. (And I would assume as much as possible has been done to avoid this conclusion)

It surely cannot be right to have the majority of the class's education suffering because there is an individual who is not responding to any special measures the school has implemented.

I suspect I am about to be flamed and described as callous/completely lacking in compassions etc, but I just don't know what the practical solution is - I'm only reading "ideal world" scenarios where we all love and hug each other any everything is then sorted. That is just not going to happen!

They won't learn anything there, Clouds, believe me. Not unless the funding is there for that as a specialist unit, staffed with people who know what they are doing.

And what about the next child who thinks it's funny to hum, or whistle or swear screechily for a 'laff'?

Far better to have a clear programme of sanctions ( and rewards) and nip it in the bud early.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 13:59:16

In an ideal world the children will be in the best setting for them.

My DD is not in mainstream as it is not suitable for her.

Sadly this does not happen.

But there is generally SOME sort of streaming..i.e my DD being at special school.

Interestingly she is quiet at school but some of the other children are very disruptive indeed. She just has to suck it up.

But still loves school.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 13:59:35

Putting the disruptive children in a different classroom actually solves the problem of the other children's learning being interrupted very well.

Providing a teacher or TA to deliver the lesson to one, two, or a few children solves the problem of those children not having a lesson delivered in the way that is most appropriate to them. An adult with a very small number of children can provide the individual attention, pace, and personal response to the child that just cannot be achieved in a class of thirty.

There are other opportunities throughout the school day for all children to be together, and learn the PSE side of things.

There is of course the problem that lunchtime staff are often paid a pittance so are untrained and are uninvested in children making the most out of that (IMO) critical hour of the day, but that's a separate problem and probably a different thread.

iamsmokingafag Wed 08-May-13 14:02:25

so the disruptive children (who may well have undxed SEN)are moved into the 'naughty' class with a TA?

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 14:02:54

They won't learn anything there, Clouds, believe me. Not unless the funding is there for that as a specialist unit

I think that is something that depends on the age of the child and the severity of the disruption the child displays.

There does not need to be a specialist unit for low level disruptive behaviour, even if it is persistent, but other children should be allowed to learn without that in the majority of their lessons.

Where is that Teacher or TA going to come from, Clouds? There generally aren't that many 'spares' floating about.

Sirzy Wed 08-May-13 14:03:24

Good post Fanjo. Mainstream education is, rightly so, the default for all children. For some children they need more than can be offered in a mainstream school and there are some fantastic schools that can offer that.

Children should not be separated from their peers simply because they can be disruptive (as a long term solution), that is rarely what is best for the child and doesn't help them cope in situations, it doesn't get to the route of the problem.

Kiriwawa Wed 08-May-13 14:03:39

What do you mean by 'streaming' Poppadom? Normally that refers to grouping children by ability.

My DS is very able, he just struggles with the general hubbub of classrooms so if they introduced 'streaming' he'd probably be in the top set. Or do you mean he should be put in a class with all the children who are struggling because he has SN?

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 14:03:51

Clouds..I am honestly asking.

Do you actually care about the education of the few children, or do you just want them away from your DC?

<tries to be open minded>

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 14:04:52

I think the key for me here is that you are using "disruption" about the children, rather than saying that THEY have needs.

WilsonFrickett Wed 08-May-13 14:05:18

Can I just point out at this point that it wasn't my idea for my DS to be educated in mainstream education? But while he's there, I'll be damned if he'll be sent out to a cupboard to be taught by a completely unqualified TA.

<laughs hollowly at the thought of my DS part-funded TA actually spending any time on a 1:1 basis with him, mind you>

iamsmokingafag Wed 08-May-13 14:05:31

totally agree with sirzy
far better to identify the triggers for the behaviour and to put support in place

I think that is something that depends on the age of the child and the severity of the disruption the child displays.

Not if they are from a range of classes, all doing different work, with one TA overseeing that range of skills?

They are not going to learn anything at all.

PolterGoose Wed 08-May-13 14:10:34

So Clouds is reinventing the old remedial class of my school days. Just chuck all the hard to manage children, plus those with learning difficulties, those with English as a second language etc etc all together to learn bugger all and be stigmatised forever.

Nice.

lljkk Wed 08-May-13 14:10:41

"...made an example of permamently excluded."

And then what? What do you think happens? The govt.still has an obligation to educate them. The PRUs are short-staffed as it is. Parents who care will be devastated & parents who don't care will continue to do nothing.

My dad went to school in 1940s & was frequently disruptive. Regular paddling by the head teacher had no impact.

I can testify that we had plenty disruption in 1970s American classrooms. American kids normally only held down a year for academic reasons, never behaviour ones.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 14:10:44

Where is that Teacher or TA going to come from, Clouds? There generally aren't that many 'spares' floating about.

That's the point I originally made! I'm well aware there generally aren't many around. The LA is responsible for funding more if they are needed, but it is, in my experience, very difficult to convince an LA that it is worth providing one. They only have a limited budget.

I agree that sanctions would be better, but there is only so far a school can go. Endlessly sending a child to the head, withdrawing playtime, and calling the parents in for meetings doesn't always work.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 14:12:17

Not if they are from a range of classes, all doing different work, with one TA overseeing that range of skills?

Then to meet their needs, more than one TA is needed obviously.

I do see what you are saying, but you have to weigh up how much they are learning in the other class as well.

ReallyTired Wed 08-May-13 14:13:25

Many children SN do not distrupt learning. They are often victims of bullying because they cannot speak out as well as children without SN.

'perhaps it teaches you tolerance, empathy and understanding too'.

Having lots of empathy, understanding without basic maths and english skills will not make someone employable. Children only get one chance to go to school. Children only have one childhood.

Bad behaviour should never be tolerated. Prehaps children with behavioural problems should have some empathy and understanding, but that is very different to making pathetic excuses and allowing them to continue.

Racism, bullying or totally wrecking a teachers lesson should never be tolerated.

iamsmokingafag Wed 08-May-13 14:13:49

have you seen this strategy in action clouds?

how will school reintegrate the child back into their peer group or are they booted out for good?

would you be concerned at the effect on the child's self-esteem at being relegated to the naughty class.

PoppadomPreach Wed 08-May-13 14:14:09

Kiriwawa - you are right, streaming is usually referring to academic ability and that's not what I meant. I just mean that some sort of splitting of the class, removing the disruptive kids (as awful as that sounds, I'm not comfortable writing it).

As I said, I don't know what the alternative is, given the cost constraints the whole of the public sector are subjected to.

Grinkly Wed 08-May-13 14:15:51

My friend is a teacher with about 25 years experience and this Sept was the first time ever I have heard her praise her class. She said they are lovely, really well behaved and keen.

I agree about the endless circle of lower-level sanctions not working for some children, Clouds. That's why a Policy has to be clear, not wish-washy and involve parents from Stage 1. My experience has been of that kind of Policy and if anyone's school hasn't got that kind they need to lobby Head and governors to get one.

Sirzy Wed 08-May-13 14:16:45

So clouds you basically want the most vulnerable pupils being taught but TAs?

navada Wed 08-May-13 14:17:04

YANBU.

Sirzy Wed 08-May-13 14:18:04

taught BY TAs even

jellybeans Wed 08-May-13 14:18:59

'Bad behaviour should never be tolerated. Racism, bullying or totally wrecking a teachers lesson should never be tolerated.'

Agree with ReallyTired.

Most children in my DCs class are fine whether or not they have SN. But the two that spoil it are not just humming or shouting out etc but they are bullying, racially abusing, physically violent etc. Girls have had their hair cut off for example as well as called Crack Whores. This was also said to the teacher more than once. Not sure why kids should 'learn to tolerate' this?

bad behaviour should be dealt with no matter what the reason. Schools should be stricter.

The two very disruptive and violent DC in my older DDs class ended up at a behaviour school after a few months in high school and are doing well.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 14:19:46

I just think a lot of people here are trying to word it nicely but really...just want the more challenging kids away out of sight and away from their DC..and don't really care about their education.

It is a dog eat dog world but we have to cater for every child.

In an ideal world my DD wouldn't be sitting next to a girl who screams all the time either but they are both well supported, my DD is still happy at school and the other girl is doing well too.

ouryve Wed 08-May-13 14:20:14

Poppadom - in an ideal world, every child is taught in an environment that is the best environment for them. For some kids, that's never going to be in a class of 30. In an ideal world, there would be decent educational options in abundance for those kids who can't be institutionalised in that way. In an ideal world, parents wouldn't need to fight for the right setting for their children.

PolterGoose Wed 08-May-13 14:21:11

But the OP wasn't about bullying, it was about low level disruption. Please, let's not conflate the two.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 14:22:35

Actually I disagree with myself there.

I dont mind DD sitting next to the girl and my ideal world would in no way involve shunting the girl off to isolation.

I just mean the noise could be disruptive to DD and ideally the room would be quiet.

My ideal world doesnt exclude others.

ReallyTired Wed 08-May-13 14:24:54

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 14:25:09

Do you actually care about the education of the few children, or do you just want them away from your DC?

Yes, I really do. On this thread I'm going on my experience of working with YR and KS1 children, not as a parent. My son has been one of those children that has had behaviour support and ed psychs observing him in the classroom (albeit for behaviour at the other end of the scale because he is very quiet) so this isn't some weird prejudice I have against children.

From what I have seen, (with younger children) it does more harm to leave children in a class to be disruptive, to the other children and to them.

The child who is displaying the disruptive behaviour wouldn't be being disruptive if they were engaged with and were enjoying the lesson. If there are reasons for the behaviour, then they need to be solved in their own way, but in the meantime, the behaviour still has to be managed. Which is why I'm referring to the child as disruptive instead of talking about their needs.

When a child is persistently disruptive, the other children become wary of them, even when they are young, and this can and does lead to the child being unable to form friendships. Parents get fed up of their child coming home and saying 'X got told off today', they talk amongst, themselves and they quickly work out who the child is that they would prefer theirs not to play with. Then they tell their child not to play with them, their child comes into school and says 'I'm not allowed to play with you' and the problem escalates.

It's all very well to condem my opinion as uncaring towards the child who is displaying the negative behaviour, but it honestly doesn't do anyone any favours to allow the situation to continue indefinitely, least of all the child.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 14:26:04

Thats better. .just come right out with it.

PolterGoose Wed 08-May-13 14:26:18

Those of you who want the less than perfect children isolated, what happens when they become adults? We do all have to live together in society. Surely we need to develop effective methods to help the children who need it, not isolate them and then at adulthood expect them to get on fine. It doesn't work like that.

As for punishments. Anyone noticed that the societies with the highest levels of incarceration and more punitive penalties seem to have higher crime?

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 14:26:33

X posted. .I was addressing ReallyTired

We don't use Unkind Words and silly names for others here, ReallyTired.

I'm going to put you on Amber and will be speaking to your parents at home time.

Sirzy Wed 08-May-13 14:27:57

How patronising ReallyTired. I was trying to have some sympathy for your situation but the more you post the angrier I get.

Children don't just know how to behave, children need to be taught and supported. Pushing them out of the classroom isn't going to do anything to help anyone but hey that doesn't matter does it as long as your child is ok then its fine to write off others at the age of 10!

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 14:28:18

The children would be even more wary of the excluded ones if they were in a special 'naughty'class

NotMostPeople Wed 08-May-13 14:28:31

I do think that constant low level disruption can seriously effect the whole class, but I don't know what the solution is. DS is in a class with a high number of difficult children, they have the reputation of the worse class ever to have been at the school - I have been told this by the children themselves. What can the teachers do though? I've spoken to the head because DS hates going in, is in tears each morning. The head says that they are aware of the issues and I really do believe that they are doing their best. If they don't remove the difficult children (and where would they go/what would become of them?) then they can only manage the behaviour.

I don't want to write off any child, but I also don't want my own child to loathe school. If he hadn't already been to three primary schools (due to moving) I'd move him but he's got one year left and I'm not sure it's the right thing to do.

Dinkysmummy Wed 08-May-13 14:28:38

smile @fanjo

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 14:30:37

how will school reintegrate the child back into their peer group or are they booted out for good?

In my ideal world where we can deal with these problems effectively with all the resources we need, the child wouldn't need to be reintegrated. They would only be separated during some lessons, they would still be with their peers for plenty of school activities.

would you be concerned at the effect on the child's self-esteem at being relegated to the naughty class.

Yes, but I believe that can be dealt with using a strong PSHE programme throughout the school. Children in different classes play together all the time, as do children in the same class who are in different groups for literacy and numeracy, there is no reason why it should be that big a deal.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 14:33:30

"In my ideal world where we can deal with these problems effectively with all the resources we need, the child wouldn't need to be reintegrated. They would only be separated during some lessons, they would still be with their peers for plenty of school activities."

Yes, of course no child would ever be bullied for having to go and attend special separate "naughty" lessons. hmm

WilsonFrickett Wed 08-May-13 14:34:13

Jesus Christ on a bike. I've read some snide, bitchy comments on MN in my time but OP's post at 14:24 takes the biscuit

What a disgusting way to talk about a ten year old child. You should be ashamed.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 14:34:39

anyway...my DD may be in a class with lots of screaming, running about, aggression and time outs but she is still learning the important stuff like eating with a fork, putting her socks on and using the toilet.

Pfft to all this reading and maths nonsense wink

ProtegeMoi Wed 08-May-13 14:34:40

Yes the school should look out for every child but you can't blame the one child causing the disruption, it is up to the school to put steps into place to prevent this.

HamletsSister Wed 08-May-13 14:34:58

It is possible, in a small community school where everyone is relaxed and working together to have NO problems with discipline. Really. We have children with all sorts of problems / issues and there are no problems at all where I work. The place is calm and purposeful (if a little too relaxed - deadlines can be an issue!) and everyone gets on with things. Any low level disruption is tackled quickly and effectively, often by the pupils themselves saying things like, "Please don't talk, I am working." We place a lot of emphasis on your own targets and working out your own strengths and weaknesses.

It can be done.

And this is in the big, bad world of High School.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 14:38:41

So clouds you basically want the most vulnerable pupils being taught but TAs?

They are not neccesarily the most vulnerable. And in my experience, they are often very intelligent and capable.

Of course it's not ideal for them to be taught by TAs, although experienced TAs are perfectly capable of delivering lessons, especially in the age group I work with, but if getting a TA is going to be difficult, then getting a qualified teacher for them is going to be impossible.

You need to remember the point that the child in question is unlikely to be achieving their potential in the class, and nor are any of the others. It's about using the available resources in the best way possible. It's not about making sure every child gets the same no matter what.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 14:39:19

"Of course it's not ideal for them to be taught by TAs"

Damn right is isn't.

And is hopefully illegal too.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 14:39:50

"You need to remember the point that the child in question is unlikely to be achieving their potential in the class, and nor are any of the others. It's about using the available resources in the best way possible. It's not about making sure every child gets the same no matter what."

But it IS exactly about that.

And that is why your attitude is revolting, sorry.

AmberLeaf Wed 08-May-13 14:41:57

I had a sensible post lined up, but then I read reallytireds last post...

You came right out with it there didn't you?

Following your example, I will do the same.

OP you are an arsehole.

ReallyTired Wed 08-May-13 14:42:22

"Those of you who want the less than perfect children isolated, what happens when they become adults? We do all have to live together in society."

Unless a child gets help when they are young they are going to struggle as adults. Having an isolation unit is a way of giving EBD children help. They can cool off and come to their senses away from an audiance. They can talk through their feelings and actions with an experienced higher level TA. The HLTA can set up a plan for integrating the child back into the classroom or prehaps help with social stories.

Lots of secondary schools use internal isolation to manage poor behaviour and it does work. Permament exclusion is a utter last resort.

Generally the child is sent to the isolation unit for an afternoon or a day. It is more effective than suspending a child as they do not get a "holiday". Working parents are not inconvienced by having their child suspended.

The worse punishment at many primary schools is either missing golden time/ play time or fixed term exclusion. There is nothing in between fixed term exclusion and missing play time.

Dinkysmummy Wed 08-May-13 14:42:32

Just read the post re ickle didums....

Wow.... Disgusting on so many levels, and such ignorance...

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 14:42:39

So you want every child to be given the same in a mainstream primary school, even though they clearly have different needs?

Do you even know what the reality of that would be?

Sirzy Wed 08-May-13 14:42:45

So you are writing them off.

Your happy to push them off to a corner as long as the teacher is able to look after the "good" children sod the rest.

PolterGoose Wed 08-May-13 14:43:06

Amber grin

I'm still laughing at the likely response from a PRU to being asked to admit a child who "Hums. It's really irritating and the teacher can't cope"

grin

Dinkysmummy Wed 08-May-13 14:44:06

amber flowers grin

WilsonFrickett Wed 08-May-13 14:44:15

Please, can no-one report the ickle diddums post. I would like it to stand.

Dinkysmummy Wed 08-May-13 14:44:34

grin beer

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 14:44:42

Yes, of course no child would ever be bullied for having to go and attend special separate "naughty" lessons

Children are separated into ability groups all the time. It isn't the big problem that you and some others on here perceive it to be. It's a good thing FFS.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 14:44:47

My child is unlikely to be independent and to read or write (not "ramping things up", just how it is)

Should we therefore sack her teacher and just grab a monkey from the zoo to teach her?

AmberLeaf Wed 08-May-13 14:45:05

Yes I agree Wilson.

Let it stand.

The worse punishment at many primary schools is either missing golden time/ play time or fixed term exclusion. There is nothing in between fixed term exclusion and missing play time.

There's Internal Exclusion and parental consultation. There's missing school trips and events.In a decent Behavior Policy. did i mention those

Dinkysmummy Wed 08-May-13 14:46:21

I also agree Wilson...

Let it stand

Fenton Wed 08-May-13 14:47:10

ReallyTired

That last post of yours disgusts me, - this is just a child you're talking about, one who most likely does need specific help.

There is currently a problem with one child in my son's class, she is very disruptive in class and aggressive on the playground. She bullies DS and a handful of others too, he has started having nightmares about her.

However, I cannot fault the way in which the school are dealing with it. He and the others affected know they are believed, they know she has time taken away, they know she is now excluded from the playground, and they know she is being monitored. And we parents know this and that the next step is full exclusion.

They are doing their best for all the children, and for this one child and her parents to improve matters.

And yes, I was pissed off that this one child was effectively ruining the experience of my precious ickle diddum's school life - but then I thought about the other child and the parents who were going through this.

Oh and bugger not inconveniencing working parents. If a child gets to Stage 4 then it might make make them take notice if it's a matter of lack of parental support for all the other Stages' sanctions.

Dinkysmummy Wed 08-May-13 14:48:01

beer it is falling on deaf ears as some of these posters are truly stuck in believing that their precious little darlings are being cheated out of an education and don't want to be swayed by something as logical as a behaviour policy!

JakeBullet Wed 08-May-13 14:50:58

Meanwhile up and down the country, schools are seeing massive cuts in their budgets. Cuts which will minimise their opportunity to work effectively with these children. Still...we DID vote this Govt in so we have to live with it.
I have to live with shit support for my autistic child and people like the OP have to accept that this means disruptive classes will get worse instead of better.
As it happens, my DS is not disruptive, but if he was then no amount of my "ickle didikums" being taken off "to think about his behaviour" would help without some decent 1-1 support to enable this.
Shame support is being cut right, left and centre isn't it?

Tingalingle Wed 08-May-13 14:51:36

DS1 would probably have been one of the children you are talking about.

He struggled desperately with the environment of a mainstream classroom -- used to hum, sing, fidget, rock, click, god knows what. Staff were in despair over how to get him to settle and work quietly, as no motivation or punishment seemed effective.

Then we had found a better than usual Ed Psych, who pointed out that the result of the disruption was that he got sent out. Ergo, she reckoned, he was doing it, whether consciously or not, in order to be sent out -- because he couldn't stand being in the room.

So she instructed the school to use 'time out' as a reward for good, quiet, concentrated work, instead of a punishment. They weren't too keen on this!

But it worked, and gradually they managed to build up his tolerance so that he could stick the classroom for longer.

I still hold her in great affection years later.

ouryve Wed 08-May-13 14:53:34

Isolation doesn't teach children who have problems with impulse control how to fit in, Reallytired. Yes, some children are badly behaved because of their home situation or because they're not used to boundaries being set, but you're talking about children still in primary school who need support, not condemnation. And certainly not name calling.

I'm sure that if someone started a thread along the lines of "AIBU to think this child needs to grow a thicker skin?" and then described a child who, in their opinion, appeared to be particularly anxious, bothered by everything going on around him, including a bit of humming, stressed out by exams etc you would agree that the nervous child needed support - in opposition to people declaring that the child just needed to tough up and back in the 60s, children just got on with it and didn't get nervous, while kids these days are wrapped in cotton wool, etc etc...

A lot of children need support to survive in a class of 30. Some express their discomfort by becoming fretful. Others by acting out. They all need patience and appropriate handling, in the first instance.

ouryve Wed 08-May-13 14:55:48

DS2 would be in top set for putting socks on, Fanjo grin

He doesn't believe in forks, though.

WilsonFrickett Wed 08-May-13 14:55:53

Beer what about a Behaviour Management Policy? grin

Dawndonna Wed 08-May-13 14:58:05

Right, wasn't going to get involved because OP is known for these threads.
hmm
However. Dd2, now 16 spent the first term of her primary school stuck outside the headteachers office labelled the naughtiest girl in the school. She was four, ffs. We took her out, got her into a school where the whole class were involved in helping her. She has made some good and loyal friends over the years, they have learnt patience and understanding. She takes her gcses next week. She has been disruptive, but thanks to good teaching which included teaching her peer group coping strategies to help her, she will get to sixth form without too much trouble.
A good teacher Really will manage all things in a classroom.

KitchenandJumble Wed 08-May-13 15:07:58

I don't understand the rosy nostalgia for the 70s and 80s. I was in school then (in both the US and the UK) and it was no golden age of perfectly behaved children. There was certainly low-level disruption and challenging behaviour. And much less understanding of or provisions for children with SN.

I do agree that all children have the right to an education in an environment conducive to learning. But I don't think the answer is an authoritarian approach with a long list of punishments and sanctions, corporal punishment or the threat of it, or regimented behaviourist methods. Those sorts of approaches are based on short term gains and control, and they can so easily backfire. If one child is able to disrupt an entire class, clearly the teacher needs to rethink his/her classroom management techniques.

It is easy to look at a child who is misbehaving and claim that he is choosing to do so. And that may be true. But equally it may not be. I know someone who adopted a child with a harrowing background (abandoned at birth, early months in a hospital, later transferred to an orphanage, very little nurturing from harassed over-worked caregivers). Not surprisingly, he has had a fair number of challenges due to the trauma of his first four years of life. His behaviour at school reflects this background at times. The teachers and school administrators kept saying her son had to "make better choices."

Once at a meeting with these teachers and administrators, the mother of this child picked up a book and dropped it onto the table loudly. All of the people present were startled and reacted instinctively, turning their heads, jumping slightly. My friend said, "Why did you choose to do that?" She was trying to show them that her son wasn't just "making bad choices." He was responding instinctively to the world around him, and he did not (yet) have complete control over his behaviour. Punishing without understanding was just taking him on a road to nowhere. BTW, that meeting was a turning point in her dealings with the school. Things changed for the better for all concerned, including all the other children in her son's classroom.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 15:08:42

Tingalingle and Dawn, the strategies that you both talk of (identifying the motivator, getting the whole class involved etc) are pretty common place now. It's great when they work, but they don't always.

I would assume that any decent school would try these things, along with some solid behaviour management policies before they would consider regularly working one to one with a child who receives no extra funding for that.

No matter how right on liberal and PC some posters want to try to be, there are some children that need additional support that the school simply can't access. In those cases, it is right that needs of the whole class are considered, and the situation has to be managed somehow.

Just read the OP.

Actually I agree, that our education system is highly inapproprate for a good number of children and we are going to see the consequences of ineffectual behaviour management systems in both schools and at home shortly.

And don't get me started on the stupid child-initiated learning thing.

However, this is not the child's fault.

Dawndonna Wed 08-May-13 15:30:44

It also has to be noted how difficult it is to get a statement now. If you can read and write in my area, you won't get a statement. I have two dds on school action plus. Been there all their school lives despite the fact that 1) I have worked for said authority and wrote most of their guidelines with regard to ASDs.
2) For years, dd1 couldn't manage the lavatory alone.
3) Dd1 is a wheelchair user.
4) They both have Asperger Syndrome.
The system with regard to statementing is farcical.
Personally, I would be prepared to pay more tax to support a better NHS and education system.

' I have ..... so you can't tell me off''

So what DOES he have then?

Can I guess it is 'intolerant interfering classmate parents'?

delboysfileofax Wed 08-May-13 15:34:36

YANBU OP, but this is mumsnet. In the real world most people would agree that the education of the majority would come first

Sirzy Wed 08-May-13 15:37:04

I know nobody who would happily write off some pupils for the sake of the majority.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 15:37:47

In the real world..of selfish gits

'But. Hey ho, in today's inclusive-obssessed climes, the majority have to put up with it so that a minority aren't put out.'

What makes you think the minority aren't put out? I can tell you with certainty, that if they are disruptive, then the absolutely ARE put out and the arrangement isn't working for them either.

The reason they are there, and disruptive, is because society prefers to shun and ingore these children instead of fund and support them.

delboysfileofax Wed 08-May-13 15:39:30

No, in the real world that I care more about my child's education and therefore future then I do about other children who have absolutely nothing to do with me

Kat101 Wed 08-May-13 15:40:45

Perhaps being in the class will teach your child some tolerance and consideration for others.

This was precisely the motto of my secondary school. The reality is that the one or two disruptive kids kicked off, the teacher spent the entire lesson firefighting, and the kids that wanted to learn sat around bored and irritated and resentful of the naughty kids. I had to buy my own textbooks to get good GCSE results, the poor teachers certainly didn't have time to do any actual teaching.

YANBU

Sirzy Wed 08-May-13 15:41:28

And do you think the parents of the disruptive children don't care? Do you think they would happily have their child written off in order for your child to not have to have anyone who isn't 'perfect' in the class?

MiaowTheCat Wed 08-May-13 15:42:05

I got out of teaching. (If anyone jumps on the spelling and grammar here - my keyboard's running out of battery and keeps skipping letters and I'm typing quickly)

The current situation does NO ONE any justice regarding disruptive behaviour in class. Neither the child causing the disruption, nor the other kids in the class (and how I'd have loved to have 29 who were amenable and only one challenging...)

There were three particular children behind the reason I left teaching, in a class that drove me to a nervous breakdown and shredded my mental health.

Two of these were very disturbed boys who'd had horrific disruption to their home lives and reacted badly to this within the school environment. One was more a case of just acting before engaging his brain, the other was very much more a case of aggression and smashing things up. Both needed help desperately - and I was banging on endlessly to the head and to the SENCO that this was needed - but no help was forthcoming. The third very much just used the chaos generated by the pair who had real massive difficulties to bully, manipulate and not behave in a very nice manner (and run to his mother whenever he got told off... considering he lacked the nous to check who was stood behind him before saying really unpleasant things to other kids - this happened a good few times).

You do your best - but there's only so much you can physically do - especially when there's just you in the classroom and things kick off and you're left trying to protect both sides - both the child who's smashing up your classroom, and the kids in the class looking on terrified at it all. You're left in a situation sending trusted runners to other classes for help - so those classes are left with staff members down as the member of SMT comes to help with your class... your class are shepherded out to a safer place... it's chaos and it's wrong that situations like that arise when kids aren't getting the support needed to be included PROPERLY in school. You can pre-empt and try to avoid incidents wherever possible - but they happen, and when the school isn't set up to deal with them properly - it's a nightmare for all concerned. Like I say - I was pushing desperately to get these kids help - but no one really gave a shit, and more frighteningly - these were becoming BIG tall strong lads, and it was moving on beyond a small relatively containable child to an almost-teenager the same size as lots of the teaching staff going ballistic.

It's also the nightmare of where to sit children. NO kid deserves to have to sit next to a child who is upsetting them - the best I came up with was having tables up against walls and having certain personalities have the wall side of the table, and regularly rearranging the seating to give everyone a break - plus different groups for different subjects - just to break it up a bit. You do what you can - and you try to do it in a way that doesn't single any particular child out - the kids got used to me fiddling around rearranging tables (usually cos some bastard colleague had left me with all the mismatched height ones again mind you) and saying I was playing table Tetris.

But the support wasn't there - that class really needed at least one second skilled TA to help manage the situations when they exploded, to follow and supervise when kids stormed out of the classroom, to be on hand to help with distracting and defusing explosions before they happened, and to be able to remove either the class or child from the situation while both were safe with adult supervision in the event of a really massive meltdown - rather than having to take the class to stand in the corridor and stand in the doorway trying to split myself in half like what WAS happening.

In the end it broke me down completely - I found myself lying awake at night trying to work out how I could solo manage various scenarios in various locations in the school if they occurred - which kids I could rely on to relay a message sensibly (and actually get the message out in its vaguely original form at the other end)... and trying to figure out who the fuck I could bug next to try to get some help for the kids in question (I actually had quite a soft spot for 'em - understood why they were reacting the way they were)... the system failed all 30 kids in that class shockingly.

5madthings Wed 08-May-13 15:42:24

Yes delboy I mean the minority don't count do they just exclude and isolate them, who gives a shout anyway... Ffs.

As a society it is our responsibility to help those less fortunate than ourselves. Children aren't born 'naughty' a child with behavior issues needs support and behavior management strategies.

I know one parent thought ds2 was a 'naughty' child, he was just summer born, exceptionally bright but with poor impulse control and pack of emotional maturity. Entirely normal for his age according to camhs and the power and they worked with us and the school to help him control his behavior.

Shame the parent who thought he was naughty didn't stop their child from deliberately winding him up... No it was just ds2 being naughty as far as they were concerned and their own child was perfect...

Dinkysmummy Wed 08-May-13 15:43:15

Yes delboy you belong to the world of selfish gits then....

Honestly....

JakeBullet Wed 08-May-13 15:43:55

....and here we are shouting about "our children" and nobody is raising merry hell about the cuts to the Education budget. Staggering.

Kat101 Wed 08-May-13 15:44:57

Miaow, I feel for you. A zero tolerance pupil removal policy with immediately available staff to do the removals would have transformed your job. What was the Head like?

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 15:47:18

Delboy,,well the unlucky minority cares about their kids too.

How selfish you are.

delboysfileofax Wed 08-May-13 15:50:30

Of course the minority care about their kids- but why are they expecting everyone else to?

Sirzy Wed 08-May-13 15:52:05

Because in a caring society people care more than just their own little bubble?

Dinkysmummy Wed 08-May-13 15:52:12

Wow, please tell me you are not serious delboy... hmm

ReallyTired Wed 08-May-13 15:52:41

"There's Internal Exclusion and parental consultation. There's missing school trips and events.In a decent Behavior Policy."

For internal exclusion to work you need a room where the child can be looked after by a TA. Otherwise the distruptive year 6 child is plunked into a corner of the year 5 classroom or maybe worse still reception. It must be pretty humilating to be put in a corner of the classroom that your little brother/ sister is in.

Surely its kinder for the child to be a seperate room with someone who has the time to talk, chase up referals, help them with work.

Parental consultation is not a punishment and a child cannot be made to miss a school trip as they have a right to education. School trips are part of the curriculum and not a jolly.

In the real world very few parents have sympathy for other people's distruptive children.

delboysfileofax Wed 08-May-13 15:55:05

It's not a caring society though, is it?
Its all well and good trying to be inclusive but that's not whats happening. If other students who can behave are suffering as a result of this then it's wrong

Sirzy Wed 08-May-13 15:58:38

With attitudes like yours and others on this thread then sadly no it doesn't seem we do have a caring society.

Dinkysmummy Wed 08-May-13 16:01:36

in the real world very few parents have sympathy for other people's disruptive children

Yes because the very few view the children as if they choose to be disruptive and not wonder why they are disruptive, no kid is born bad. They are made out to be the ones where the blame lies yet are not supported, and yet the very few instinctively blame the parents.

This attitude of out of sight out of mind is going backwards not forwards.
Blaming the child will get you nowhere. Why don't you put your energy into fighting for more provision

'In most cases, the teacher will be as frustrated as anyone else. There is only so much they can do, and even if they have a head teacher that is as supportive as possible, they are still at the mercy of the LA and other services.'

So why do teachers tend to side with the LA against parents who are trying to get some support for their children?

5 schools later and I have found one that doesn't, but its independent.

sparklesandbling Wed 08-May-13 16:06:25

Reading the last comments by OP and delboy makes me very sad as this disruptive child could very well be my DD.

I am about to go and kiss DD statement as this has a named SS on it.

DD will learn that disruption in SS is norm as no one is perfect and will just make her life more rounded.

I've only read some of the earlier posts, however:

My son is low level and sometimes high level disruptive. He is in reception. Some things he will do is be the class clown and disrupt others from work, laugh overly much and not stop grin when asked, hitting (others also hit him). The school have a care worker that works with him, he works on different things each week, listening to the teacher, being gentle with class mates, finishing his work etc... and will either get smile or sad on his daily sheets.

However it doesn't work!

We took him to a child therapist who sees no problem with him, and told us to ignore the charts the school uses. She sees he is very smart and quick thinking, which his teacher agrees with, and is therefore not pushing him academically which I think is nuts! So from our point of view, and it could all be bollocks, but, we think:

1) the teacher is not the right match for him (she is a bit yoga, hippy, at one with nature type, whereas he responds to firm, strict, clear instruction), or;
2) he is bored (he went to private preschool, and we were told he'd be repeating it all at public reception so this would likely happen), or;
3) he has low attention span, ants in his pants, etc... I sent in some things to help with this used normally for ADHD children, but they were sent home again.

We implemented a few things at the same time as he went to the therapist, such as DH takes time to read him a story and cuddle and chat at bedtime for a good half an hour. His behaviour at home changed back to his normal sunny self (it changed dismally as soon as he started reception), but at school he still struggles.

I don't know what the answer is, but I'm looking for it. I know that kicking them out of class isn't it. More support, more therapy, more one on one, smaller class sizes? It all costs, how do you get the schools to spend money in these areas?

School trips are part of the curriculum and not a jolly.
I'm not talking about the Curriculum based trips.

Parental consultation is not a punishment
No, it's part of a cohesive, inclusive and holistic Behaviour Management Policy.

For internal exclusion to work you need a room where the child can be looked after by a TA.
True, but you also need a member of staff to follow and monitor a child who refuses to stay in a classroom. It's a formal Stage 4 procedure and completely different from moving to the next class up (or down).

Wrt to moving to another class - it's usually 'up' a class ime. Yr6 go to Reception, but they are expected to engage and help in that session, not sit in a corner. I've seen some amazing behavioural changes with this strategy btw. Not out of embarrassment, but out of the child liking the responsibility and the change of scene (particularly if they have barriers to formal learning).

Blu Wed 08-May-13 16:14:16

I was an expert in creating low level disruption in primary school. Sometimes veering into high level disruption.
A risque smartarse comment delivered sotto voce that made everyone collapse in giggles
Getting a hand stuck (deliberately) in a radiator and needing the Fire Brigade
Lolly sticks in the extractor fan creating a huge racket
Bursting into tears and hysterics at a sad story, claming it reminded me of my(fictional) mortally ill sibling, causing whole class to sob and be unable to read the story
and so on and so on and so on.

And it was at a PRIVATE SCHOOL.

'As you say, some children choose to behave badly. They probably have a reason for this being the most attractive option to them'

Yes, or the least adversive at any rate. What makes it so for THIS child as opposed to the others?

'Obviously, the ideal would be that extra staff are provided so that disruptive children can be educated in isolation away from engaged pupils'

Why is that a)ideal and b)obvious?

The ideal would surely be that extra staff work in the classroom. Tailored support where needed can eliminate a huge amount of disruptive behaviour. With no child labelled as 'naughty' or in the 'remedial group'.

Cloud

'However, there is a disruptive child in the class I work in. We have kept a log for over a year, but it doesn't get read by anyone who could make a difference. We have pushed and pushed and pushed for support from the LEA, they have been about as much help as a chocolate fire guard.'

Have you applied for a statement for this child?

iamsmokingafag Wed 08-May-13 16:21:25

Reallytired what do you think happens to theses kids once they are booted out to go to the naughty classes?

Did you know that pupils with a statement of sen are 8 times more likely to be excluded than pupils without sen?

Did you know that young people with sen are more likely to go to prison than young people without sen - a direct result of their needs not being identified and met in the education system.

You should all care about what happens to young people with sen. I'm disgusted by some of posts on this thread.

MerkinMaker Wed 08-May-13 16:25:57

To those suggesting isolation for disruptive children can you answer how disruptive a child has to be before they are carted off and educationally left to rot?

My ds has an asd and hums. No teacher has ever called him disruptive but he hums and also flaps, this can be through excitement, upset or when he's concentrating.

Although only yr2 they are streamed for numeracy and literacy and although he initially struggled with changing classrooms he now is fine and in both top sets. Isolation would devastate him.

'I think we have to be as pragmatic as possible and whilst striving to be as inclusive and welcoming to as many children as possible into mainstream education, we have to realise that in some cases it is simply not possible and some sort of streaming, as undesirable as it is, is the only solution. (And I would assume as much as possible has been done to avoid this conclusion)'

Woah! How little you know of the real world. Assumption indeed.

delboysfileofax Wed 08-May-13 16:27:53

no, they are sent to prison as a direct result of committing crime(s) Funny enough no one has ever been imprisoned for shit gcse results

iamsmokingafag Wed 08-May-13 16:28:58

How do you explain the high proportion of people in prison with sen?

'It surely cannot be right to have the majority of the class's education suffering because there is an individual who is not responding to any special measures the school has implemented'

Again there is a WILD assumption here that the school has got any will, desire to fund, or even cba to implement special measures that the child will respond to. Those with children with SN usually find they have not, and only admit this once the child is self-harming/throwing chairs, by which time it is usually far too late.

Sirzy Wed 08-May-13 16:31:24

But Del can you seriously not see how being pushed to one side/labelled as naughty etc will cause life long issues?

NO child should be abandoned by a school simply because they are naughty. School needs to work with them, with their families and with anyone else needed to ensure that they don't miss out on an education as a result of whatever is causing the problems

Dawndonna Wed 08-May-13 16:34:47

No, in the real world that I care more about my child's education and therefore future then I do about other children who have absolutely nothing to do with me
Goodness, you're a charmer, aren't you!

Minifingers Wed 08-May-13 16:35:24

Blu, can I just say that I like the cut of your gib? though I'm glad I didn't have to teach you

grin

IfNotNowThenWhen Wed 08-May-13 16:37:18

I actually agree with a lot of what cloudsandtrees says (and I never do normally!) but it makes sense.
I think (I hope) what she means about not expecting every child to have the exact same education, is that one size does not fit all.
Disruptive children (who are NOT all SEN-the SEN kids in ds's class tend not to be disruptive) often need to be handled in a different way, and it would be better to have kids grouped sometimes according to learning style, and what works for them.
It isn't fair on any child if their teacher spends all his time trying to manage behaviour.
Unfortunately, as JakeBullet has pointed out, we are suffering unprecedented cuts in education (at a time where schools are already bursting at the seams) and that should be a major concern to all parents.
.

Jake Support isn't being cut. The funding is being taken off of the LA and given directly to schools.

The trouble is, that leaves no money for the LA to then fund support, and the money the schools get isn't ringfenced for SEN/Behaviour so they are flicking through catelogues of vegetable patches, sports equipment and new chairs for the staffroom whilst telling parents that the LA will not fund their children's needs anymore.

Lilka Wed 08-May-13 16:52:41

KitchenandJumble Wow what a great idea that mother had! Wish I'd used that one myself

My DD2 started her education in mainstream school and was then statemented (with a considerable fight attached to that) and moved to a specialist EBD school. She was 9 when she moved to from MS to SS.

She has many emotional and behavioural problem but her mainstream school were incapable of even grasping what her problems were and why she had them - let alone begin working with me to find solutions. God knows I tried to explain what PTSD is, I tried to explain her fear, anxiety, trauma and pain, but they persisted in seeing her as 'naughty' and attempting to use behavioural modification techniques that were useless. I refrained from saying 'I told you so' when they failed. Her time at the school was hellish, because I was forever being called in, they forever refused to listen to me, DD got more and more anxious and hated school more and more as time went on.

Yes, her behaviour was obviously too much for a mainstream school, but I don't have the power to just move her. Yes her behaviour was impacting on the other students, and yes, it's hard on them. But what's supposed to happen? I can't just move schools. The school needed to be including her, working with her and me, and finding ways to work WITH her special needs. You can't punish away the PTSD/any other kind of SN.

They wouldn't even agree to move her seat for crying out loud! I tried to explain that she was finding it anxiety provking and at times frightening to sit near the door with the door behind her, and she would better being next to a wall, with a wall behind her, and so she can see the doors. But no, apparently that was impossible to manage because they have a seating system already and moving her would ruin their arrangement angry

I am glad to know how many teachers there are who fight for help and try to think outside the box and who also want to actually help all their students. But it's no good without the rest of the school staff wanting to know about it, and active parental involvement is helpful.

I would love to see more special schools which deal with behavioural needs with lots of resources in them, but it doesn't seem likely. I would like to see more resources and provision for school

Trigglesx Wed 08-May-13 16:58:31

So, on the basis of what the OP is saying, if her child undergoes (god forbid) some type of tragedy at home/school and then herself becomes disruptive in school afterwards while she is coping with it, the OP is quite happy for her own child to be shuffled off out of the classroom and not allowed in regular lessons as she is disturbing others... ?

I honestly think that for some on this thread that there is a serious need to see the situation from the other side of the fence. Do you think your child is never going to go through a difficult phase? Perhaps in teen years? or pre-teen? Do you think they'll never struggle with a family trauma/tragedy that will cause them some problems at school? A medical/emotional trauma that will stir up behavioural problems? They'll never rebel? Rose coloured glasses over there on the table.. you may need them.

The ignorance and lack of compassion is staggering. The "I'm alright, Jack" attitude is pretty sad, as well.

Something to consider for those who have those perfectly behaved NT children that are being so inconvenienced by the "undesirables".... "There but for the grace of God go I.." Have a think about it.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 17:01:36

So why do teachers tend to side with the LA against parents who are trying to get some support for their children?

I have no idea Starlight. I've only worked in one school so my experience is limited, but it is the exact opposite of yours. I have had more experience of parents who either refuse to admit there is a problem, or who don't care whether there is a problem. It's us trying to get them onside, not the other way around.

why is that a) ideal b) obvious?

It seems like common sense to me that once a variety of other approaches have been tried and have failed that the only option left is to avoid any further disruption to the class, and to provide the child with enough attention that s/he learns something.

Have you applied for a statement for this child?

No, for valid reasons, including that the child is very unlikely to get one. I don't think it's appropriate to say any more than that about an individual.

There is a lot of space for a child being disruptive enough to be damaging to other children's education without their needs being severe enough to get a statement.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 17:03:06

To those suggesting isolation for disruptive children can you answer how disruptive a child has to be before they are carted off and educationally left to rot?

Taking a child out of a lesson to work with a TA is not carting them off and educationally leaving them to rot. hmm

Get a grip!

Is it that they don't care, or is it that they don't agree with what it is you are trying to get them 'onside' about?

Also, I know not one person who has a child with SN (and I know a lot) that hasn't been told their child will not get a statement. If you put in the application then the very least that will happen is minds will be focussed, both at the LA and with the parents, regardless of the outcome.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 17:14:32

Really?

Well then let me introduce myself. I'm Clouds. I have a soon who has Aspergers. He has very definite educational needs, but I was told I was unlikely to get a statement when he was first diagnosed and I was questioning these things, which is ok by me, because SA+ does the job just fine.

Is it that they don't care, or is it that they don't agree with what it is you are trying to get them 'onside' about?

I have come across some parents that don't seem to care, and I have come across parents that disagree. And like I said, I've come across parents that simply aren't ready to admit their child has a problem and needs outside help.

ouryve Wed 08-May-13 17:16:57

Actually, starlight, I was told when the boys were small that our LA almost always issues statements for children with ASD who need the support, and they were true to their word. My LA is rare, though. And I will still have all manner of hoops to jump through to get DS1 out of mainstream and into a specialist, out of area indy school because there is no suitable specialist provision within the LA area. (And, despite a wonderfully supportive small mainstream school, we're way beyond the chair throwing stage)

fluffymindy Wed 08-May-13 17:20:05

I believe that Britain's in ablity to deal with low level disruption in the classroom has reduced social mobility.

Yea yea it is that simple. Thank you for sharing.

80sMum Wed 08-May-13 17:25:34

Good heavens! I am astonished by the responses on this thread to what I see as a perfectly reasonable question!
My view is that it is definitely not unreasonable to expect ones child not to have to put up with constant interruptions and distraction during lessons from badly behaved pupils.
If you were in a theatre, say, and someone kept talking or standing up and generally spoiling it for everyone else, they would be asked to be quiet and if they persisted being disruptive they would be escorted out.

AmberLeaf Wed 08-May-13 17:25:35

Yes re statements, that is something that most schools will lie about at worst and at best be realistic about, but you will on the whole be discouraged from pursuing that avenue.

Now that the individual school will finance a portion of the statement, you are going to get even more lies and lack of action from schools on that front.

Clouds you have just proved starlights point, you were told you wouldn't get a statement.

Lucky for you and your son that he doesn't need one eh.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 17:26:57

Oh, yeah, I misread! blush

Sorry!

I don't care about any of this thread now because Harry Hill has just agreed to help me move house!!!

AmberLeaf Wed 08-May-13 17:28:53

Oh fuck, did someone mention Theatres?

Please lets not go down that road again.

AmberLeaf Wed 08-May-13 17:29:30

Really Starlight?! grin

Fenton Wed 08-May-13 17:32:14

Eh?!

Tell us more...

Blu Wed 08-May-13 17:33:38

Thank you Minifingers grin

zzzzz Wed 08-May-13 17:58:45

Theatres!!! Oh Lord.

propertyNIGHTmareBEFOREXMAS Wed 08-May-13 17:59:18

Yanbu.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 18:02:09

80smum.

Are you in your 80s dear?

Things have changed since you were at school. .it's called inclusion.

I cannot take anything cloudsandtrees said since she said the kids with SEN should be taught by TA and leave the teacher for the kids with no issues.

dayshiftdoris Wed 08-May-13 18:06:23

My son IS the disruptive element in his class - he is expert in low level disruption and major kick offs... his teacher is outstanding but she does have to spend most of her days dealing with him.

He has ASD and a full time statement but he refuses to work with a TA. I am trying to move him to specialist education but it's a slow process.

But you know what I am with the OP... its unacceptable... its not fair on the other children. I find it impossible to concentrate when he is around as he constantly taps and fidgets, etc yet there are 29 other children in that class trying to learn.

My advice is this OP... write to the Headteacher and the Governors and explain your concerns. Any other action will do nothing to resolve the situation and that is even with a pinch of realism about what a letter to the Governors will do.

As a parent I can do VERY little about what the school choose to do to tackle it in school so there is no point coming to me as a parent and complaining - I have done what I can do and what I have done feels very fruitless but he wouldnt be in a provision with specialist knowledge in ASD with a statement without me nor would he be having a further review now. I am a small cog in a big machine of SEN provision and I am accepting / fairly well informed as a parent.

So get on the computer and type a letter. Ask what the behaviour management policy is, tell them your concerns and how you feel the behaviour management is failing. They have 14days to respond.

Good Luck

Trigglesx Wed 08-May-13 18:09:08

I'm curious. If we insisted that the TA teach the other 29 children and the teacher teach the children with difficulties, would the complainers still be happy with that? After all, if the TA is fine to teach the "difficult" children, surely the TA is fine to teach the rest, right? hmm Bet not.

PeneloPeePitstop Wed 08-May-13 18:11:59

Oh but fanjo her kid has SN so she HAS to be right on this nods

Being as I've had the most unbelievably shit day and lost a large chunk of what little help we were getting I'm stepping away now and not engaging with some of the unbelievably arseholeian comments on here.

Other than to say - that's someone's baby you're bitching about right there. Unless you'd like similar comments made about your children then wind your neck in.

iamsmokingafag Wed 08-May-13 18:14:34

Triggers that would make perfect sense. Surely the TA should teach the children who are willing to 'engage' and the teacher should teach the 'disruptive' children as that will require more skill and experience.

Except research shows that children who are taught largely by a TA make less progress than they would make if they were taught by the teacher. So the NIMBY crew would not want that. hmm

iamsmokingafag Wed 08-May-13 18:15:36

Sorry triggles - my iPad changed your name!

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 18:15:57

TAs take lessons all the time!

And not all children that disrupt classes have SEN.

I will now leave you to fight amongst yourselves about who can be the most PC. Have fun!

Trigglesx Wed 08-May-13 18:19:25

Exactly. By saying the TA should be teaching those with difficulties they're basically saying "they don't matter as much, they're already behind, and I want the best for my child (regardless of what your child gets), so we get the teacher, you take the TA." hmm

They're just trying to make it sound more palatable. Sort of "I'm not being horrible, but...."

iamsmokingafag Wed 08-May-13 18:20:09

Clouds - as the majority of children who are excluded from school do have significant recognised sen, it is reasonable to consider that a significant proportion of disruptive children DO have some form of SEN.

Trigglesx Wed 08-May-13 18:21:21

Nope. Not all children that disrupt classes have SEN. But a lot do. And since you're highly unlikely to know the difference (you know, being not an expert or having access to their school files and all)... wouldn't it be grand if people were considerate enough to give them the benefit of the doubt.

TAs take lessons all the time? Well, not ALL the time, or they'd be teachers, eh?

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 18:21:49

Since when did 'significant proportion' mean all?

PolterGoose Wed 08-May-13 18:24:06

FFS Clouds what has PC got to do with it?

Triggles yes, surely the most complex children require the skilled staff, the easy children need the least skilled staff.

AmberLeaf Wed 08-May-13 18:30:21

I will now leave you to fight amongst yourselves about who can be the most PC. Have fun!

God you're thick.

iamsmokingafag Wed 08-May-13 18:37:43

Who is being PC anyway?

iamsmokingafag Wed 08-May-13 18:38:22

Surely you mean factually correct, rather than politically correct clouds?

buildingmycorestrength Wed 08-May-13 18:40:26

The primary school my kids attend has a number of children who may or may not have SEN but are often highly disruptive because they attend school irregularly, have unstable home environments, and lack discipline. They come from a minority community that struggles to provide behavioural boundaries.

It is really hard for these kids to adjust to an institutional environment where they are expected to sit still, do as they are told and so on, when they do not have these expectations at home.

Some of the time the parents can be brought on board some more but sometimes they can't, because their community does not really value education at all, and it is kind of amazing the kids are there at all.

The teachers are doing their best, but don't have the resources to deal with it optimally and classes are already big. !any will leave primary school all but illiterate.

I still think these kids should be part of the class but with extra support for everyone while they are struggling. Which is for a long time. The whole class does 'suffer' while these kids are learning, but what is the answer? More resources, more one-to-one support, more inclusion.

The school does get extra resources for children from this community, but as far as I can tell it is nowhere near enough for the challenges presented. Sometimes the Year One children get sent back to Reception for a while, for instance, because they just need to learn to meet certain expectations before they can learn at all. Obviously if they had fully-fledged SEN, I assume this would not be appropriate, although I don't know enough about it.

To be honest, the more I see the huge, huge range of children in a class the more I am astonished that teachers manage at all. What a challenging job. I am so glad I'm not a teacher and I'm not at all surprised so many leave the profession.

Seabird72 Wed 08-May-13 18:45:45

The question is should one or a handful of pupils be allowed to disrupt classes and therefore disrupt the education of others. No. All my kids are in classes with disruptive kids mostly boys it seems. Should I care more about the disruptive childrens possible sn or home life and think fuck my kids education? Seriously?? I care about my kids because they are my responsibility. It amazes me how some people on here think that suddenly, everyone else's kids should become someone else's problem. There is plenty of support out there for parents who cannot parent properly or have sn children. There is no support for parents who just want their kids to get a decent education but cannot afford to pay for it. Next they'll be people saying don't have kids unless you can afford to pay for private education and that free education should only be for the poor or those with learning difficulties but no would anyone really go that far???

There is no support for parents who just want their kids to get a decent education

Yes there is, in a truly inclusive school with a robust Behaviour Policy.

And Clouds, to dismiss all the above posters' experiences (parents and teachers) as 'being PC' does your arguments no favours.

PolterGoose Wed 08-May-13 18:51:32

There is plenty of support out there for parents who cannot parent properly or have sn children

Seabird ODFOD

iamsmokingafag Wed 08-May-13 18:52:10

'There is plenty of support for parents of sn children'

Erm.....no there isn't

AThingInYourLife Wed 08-May-13 18:52:33

"Do you think all children whose behaviour regularly disrupts the learning of the class should be educated separately? Would you be willing to pay towards a massive rise in taxation in order to fund this provision?"

Yes and yes

TAs can't provide regular cover for a unit some posters would wish to see in a school where a proportion of pupils are siphoned off in preference to tackling their behaviour in other ways.

A HLTA could and I think a Learning Mentor could with HLTA aspects to their role, but if you're going to go down that road then the money would be better spent on two Level2 TAs extra in class.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 18:54:34

It's a good job I wasn't dismissing all of them then, isn't it? grin

Trigglesx Wed 08-May-13 18:56:24

***There is no support for parents who just want their kids to get a decent education but cannot afford to pay for it.***

Parents of NT children are not the only ones that just want their kids to get a decent education, you know. I'd rather like my DS that has SNs to get a decent education as well.

****"Do you think all children whose behaviour regularly disrupts the learning of the class should be educated separately? Would you be willing to pay towards a massive rise in taxation in order to fund this provision?"
Yes and yes **

Wow. Another person that feels their lives will never be touched by anything. Rose coloured glasses... on that table over there. You'll need them too.

No, but it was a sweeping statement, Clouds and I'm sure you can appreciate how it might come across that way.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 19:02:07

Maybe, but I haven't seen anyone come up with any other solutions. But I guess that's ok on MN, because apparently the only right answer is that we should be tolerant of anything and everything, even at the expense of education.

Viviennemary Wed 08-May-13 19:02:50

On the surface no it isn't fair. However, it's a fact of life. Hopefully, the school is doing it's best to manage the situation. The school should be managing the situation properly so if you're not happy then get in touch with your LA. Let's face it, disruptive badly behaviour children are hardly a new phenomena. Though you would think they were reading some people's comments.

Seabird

'There is plenty of support out there for parents who cannot parent properly or have sn children.'

Please can you qualify this.

dayshiftdoris Wed 08-May-13 19:04:57

Seabird72

Plenty of support for SN?

Seriously grin

In this county in the last year the following cuts have been made:

Preschool SEN teacher team who working with those suspected of SEN prior to school
Most Ed Psych provision now has to be paid for at about £90-100 per hour
All the ASD specialist teachers, only support staff remain and they are absolutely rammed with a 3 month wait
Most of the short break services
A lot of parents are having their personal budgets reviewed and cuts - these are what they pay sessional workers with for much needed respite
Teachers for the deaf have been reduced / cover larger geographical areas and thus children see them less
Speech & Language services are non-existent and will often just assess, not work with children
Occ therapy same as Speech & Language...
Equipment services have been almost completely cut
There is an 11 month wait for continence support for children with SEN

I can currently access an ASD team who can offer some emotional work / behaviour work and a short break service. I am lucky as many parents have even less.

As for schools they get a bigger SEN budget but central government has stopped providing support for free so the schools have to pay for more. They also get no extra funding for smaller statements so only the Band E & F statements attract a top up and that is an amount that wont even pay for a part time TA....
When schools now engage professionals their are less of them across the board and thus they are waiting literally months & months for reports. My son saw a comm paed in february and we still do not have a letter to inform the next stage - there is real risk we wont get it before the end of the academic year.

Now I agree that none of this should impact of other children but really I can see the position of other parents who have children affected by my son but really don't tell me that I or school have 'support' because we dont.

Now there are some schools which manage better with what they've got than others and the attitude of the Governing body is key to the success... thats why I always suggest putting your concerns in writing to them rather than deflecting blame on to the kids, the parents or the school staff because they are all part of bigger processes...
Governing bodies can make or break a school and they can make a real difference but only if they really understand what is happening in the school.

PolterGoose Wed 08-May-13 19:06:48

It isn't about tolerance, for me that implies putting up with something undesirable. It is about including and supporting and nurturing. It is about teaching all our children the skills they need to live together in the world of their futures. You cannot do that by segregating children.

As I said already, the separation of the less able, the different and the difficult children has been done before. It didn't work.

'because apparently the only right answer is that we should be tolerant of anything and everything, even at the expense of education.'

I haven't seen anyone say that. Not anyone.

Minifingers Wed 08-May-13 19:07:58

"There is no support for parents who just want their kids to get a decent education but cannot afford to pay for it."

Oh what utter bollocks.

This is a fact: hard working children with supportive parents do well in any half decent school.

A school doesn't need to be able to exclude children with special needs to deliver a good service.

My children's school is one of the best in the borough for SATS results and value added, despite being in one of the poorest areas and having a disproportionate number of children on free school meals, children with SEN and children with English as a second language.

Minifingers Wed 08-May-13 19:12:56

"On the surface no it isn't fair. However, it's a fact of life."

I think it's far more unfair that religious people can bag their children places at some of the most educationally successful schools in the country over the heads of children who live on the doorstep of the school, but who aren't fortunate enough to have church-going parents.

And that rich people can pay thousands for tutoring and private prep-school eduction, which mean that middle-class children from well off families are VASTLY over represented at the best state grammar schools.

Seriously - it's really grotesque to be directing your ire at those children and families who are the most disadvantaged and the most likely to fail in education.

I didn't come up with any other solutions? Nor did anyone else? hmm

Righty ho then!

<head/desk>

Didn't have you down as a wind-up merchant, Clouds. Are you just trying it on for this thread? I'd take it off, it doesn't suit you smile

PeneloPeePitstop Wed 08-May-13 19:14:13

Don't make me fucking laugh re support for SN. Only today I lost a huge chunk of the little I did have.

Is that what you seriously think? We sit on our arses with all that free money and support we get (both entirely fictitious in reality) and laugh at our kids taking things away from yours?

We have to fight for every little scrap of support we get. We have to put up with people thinking we are grasping for fighting just to get our kids on a level playing field with yours.

Why are my children less deserving of an education than yours anyway?

dayshiftdoris Wed 08-May-13 19:15:36

Exactly Minifingers

Any school that is failing those with additional needs / FSM / EAL will be failing the most able equally - its just that those children will be maintaining the average, covering it better

And whilst there are schools who can do it, even on the little they have to do it with then there will be no excuse for the others.

Wellthen Wed 08-May-13 19:16:21

I havent read the whole thread but I have this to say:
SEN stands for special educational need. It does not stand for learning/physical/emotional difficulties. A child with behaviour that impacts their learning has SEN, whether they have a specific problem or diagnosis or not. Their need is additional behaviour support.

If this is problem complain. DONT say that the school doesnt care. Please DONT suggest we like or want it this way. And please can everyone stop saying that these children do not deserve the extra time they get - they need it.

But do keep complaining, do keep writing letters, do keep pointing out how much it affects your child's learning. It is the only way teachers will get support.

Today I have been sworn at, had things thrown at me and my lessons disrupted by a child storming in and out repeatedly. Then they turned it around and I had to go back to nicey nicey teacher and pretend I wasn't feeling furious and hurt inside. So, possibly more than most on here, I do actually know how the other children feel. Separate schools and classes are, for most cases, not the answer.

hazeyjane Wed 08-May-13 19:18:10

Wow Seabird, I don't think I have read such an ignorant post for a long time!

There is no support for parents who just want their kids to get a decent education but cannot afford to pay for it

I have 3 dcs, one of whom has sn. He won't start school until Sept 2014, he does 3 hours a week at preschool, at present. I have had to fight for all the support he deserves in order to be able to access preschool education. Meetings, hours of phonecalls, endless forms etc etc. My dds were able to access that preschool education without all that input. Honestly if you think there is this endless outpouring of support for children with sn, you are completely deluded.

And for all the posters who are coming out with stuff like

I care more about my child's education and therefore future then I do about other children who have absolutely nothing to do with me

We live in a society, ffs, what are you teaching your children about society that other people don't matter?

Strong supportive leadership, willingness to stand up to LA, willing to listen to parents and value their advice, input and strategies (as opposed to calling it a partnership when what you really want is something more along the lines of outreach), tight and policed policies and regular review of the evidence base for those and education in general.

That is the solution.

dayshiftdoris Wed 08-May-13 19:20:10

Wellthen

Fancy opening a school - I reckon me and thee could rub along nicely together.

And on behalf of a parent who has a child who does all the above. I am very sorry and I want it to change too - most individual teachers go above and beyond for the children against all the odds... Thanks

Have a wine

Viviennemary Wed 08-May-13 19:20:11

It's a minefield. People want the best schools in the best areas but are down like a ton of bricks on somebody who complains about disruptive children. You only need to read the threads from those disappointed people who haven't got their children into that naice school. How do these hothouse schools cope with these disruptive children.

dayshiftdoris Wed 08-May-13 19:21:05

And you starlight - fancy opening a school?

I don't think people understand what it means to fight for a child with SN.

I will tell you.

-4 house moves in 5 years. 2 tribunals. 2 child protection allegations and subsequent investigations for 'disagreeing with professionals' (incidently timed to coinside with critical tribunal deadlines, living for a short while in a hotel.

-Selling our house to pay for therapy and solicitor fees'.

-Allegations raised by LA about claiming DLA fraudulently to insigate investigation during my DF's last few weeks of life and in within the deadline for an appeal against all provision being removed from my child's statement that was awarded by tribunal less than a year ago.

-Parent Governors meeting me for coffee to befriend me and encourage me not to choose their school.

-Telling my story to a select committee in HoC to MPs, charities, SEN laywers and LAs to find that none of them were shocked, moved or surprised at our story but simply acknowledged it as fairly standard.

PolterGoose Wed 08-May-13 19:24:22

Vivienne most of is who are parents to children who are or have been disruptive don't want the best schools in the best areas, we want the caring, nurturing and diverse schools.

I rate pastoral care far higher than SATS results.

Wellthen Wed 08-May-13 19:29:35

Starlight sounds good! Lovely to hear that parents appreciate it, thanks for your support!

I wouldn't want my child hurt, bullied, distracted, encouraged to behave badly. But equally I wouldnt want my child ostricised (sp?), hounded out of the school, hated by staff and children alike and generally given the message 'you are not as nice or as important as the other children' - I can vouch first hand for some disgusting and appaling behaviour! But they are children. It makes me feel so sad that something is causing them to behave in this way. Imagine what it must be like to be them.

Viviennemary Wed 08-May-13 19:31:44

My children didn't have special needs but I have friends who have children with special needs. And yes some schools have a much better success rate at getting the most from these children and ensuring everybody in the class gets a good education. But I still think those selective schools that everyone wants their children to go to don't get those children or pass them on somewhere else if they do. I knew a very clever but difficult boy who was more or less forced out of the school into private. He did very well indeed. But the local school couldn't cope with him.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 19:31:55

Yes, because those things will stop a child from being disruptive in a class, won't they? You can listen to parents, nag the LA and pore over policies as much as you like.

By the time wishy washy strategies make a difference, a struggling or easily disrupted child can have lost a years worth of maths lessons.

The things that make a real difference with children take alot of input from various professionals, and it can take a long time to get these things into place, and longer still for them to start to make a difference.

A behaviour policy can only go so far. There is a limit to the number of rewards a school can provide, and a limit to the the sanctions they can implement.

PolterGoose Wed 08-May-13 19:32:18

But they are children. It makes me feel so sad that something is causing them to behave in this way. Imagine what it must be like to be them

Exactly flowers

AmberLeaf Wed 08-May-13 19:35:33

There is plenty of support out there for parents who cannot parent properly *or have sn children*

No actually, there isn't.

Which may go some way to explaining why children with SNs struggle so much in school.

Should I care more about the disruptive childrens possible sn or home life and think fuck my kids education? Seriously??

There is a middle ground you know.

Trigglesx Wed 08-May-13 19:35:45

We didn't even look at numbers or stats to find the "best school"... we chose based on the school itself (visited it and a number of other schools).

And we dismissed out of hand a school with a good rep that told us that if our child (with SNs) was struggling to cope, they could make sure he had "quiet time" in the detention room. hmm Not for misbehaving, mind you, but when he was genuinely struggling to cope. We had to really fight the LA to get our DS in a SS, and that was even with his OT, paed, SALT, MS senco, MS teacher, MS 1:1 and us in his corner!

Trust me, support is not just handed out. It is generally fought hard for!

Trigglesx Wed 08-May-13 19:37:11

****Yes, because those things will stop a child from being disruptive in a class, won't they? You can listen to parents, nag the LA and pore over policies as much as you like.

By the time wishy washy strategies make a difference, a struggling or easily disrupted child can have lost a years worth of maths lessons.

The things that make a real difference with children take alot of input from various professionals, and it can take a long time to get these things into place, and longer still for them to start to make a difference.***

God, you just don't get it, do you?!?!? Then people need to stop blaming the children and start helping in the fight to get timely appropriate support into the schools so that EVERYONE benefits!!!

lljkk Wed 08-May-13 19:37:13

I don't know whether to feel sorry for RT or to decide she's got distorted reality problem. She's been coming on here for years with grumbles about her son's education so I imagine the years have ground her down. On other hand, sometimes I have trouble believing all her stories.

If it's year 6 at least the lad will be off to High School soon and a different set of problems.

Trapper Wed 08-May-13 19:39:11

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

JerseySpud Wed 08-May-13 19:40:19

It is a hard one.

Neither of my DD's have SEN. My eldest was hit around the head with a chair in preschool by a boy with suspected autism.

When i was told i was about the hit the roof and demand everything under the sun done by the school to deal with it. Until his mum came over and apologised herself. She told me that she was so sorry that my daughter had been hurt by her son when he was having an 'episode' (her words not mine)

It was at that moment all the fight drained out of me and i realised that what was a scary moment for my eldest which has never happened again, was a day in day out thing for the boys mum.

Dinkysmummy Wed 08-May-13 19:42:29

wellthen flowers

'By the time wishy washy strategies make a difference, a struggling or easily disrupted child can have lost a years worth of maths lessons.'

Then don't use wishy washy strategies ffs.

'The things that make a real difference with children take alot of input from various professionals, and it can take a long time to get these things into place, and longer still for them to start to make a difference.

Evidence please. IME they take a pencil and paper and a supportive leadership.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 19:45:18

No, I do get it.

You are proving the point. Help and support is hard to get. So while all those battles are being fought, the situation has to be managed somehow, otherwise all the children in the class lose out.

It is no good for anyone for the teacher to have to continually keep reprimanding for low level misbehaviour, it become stressful for everyone in the room. It takes time away from teaching and learning.

Unless the SN is severe, it is unlikely that a child will be disruptive in every single lesson. You can take a disruptive child out of a class for maths and English, and they can participate fully in the lessons that may be likely to engage them more, and where there is more noise and interaction naturally. It is no different to taking out a child who is struggling with handwriting for extra support, or who is seeing the school counsellor. There are plenty of opportunities for the class to be together that aren't the most significant lessons.

'There is a limit to the number of rewards a school can provide, and a limit to the the sanctions they can implement.'

And there does your problem lie. Have you even read your own schools behaviour policy.

wrt to rewards and sanctions it is quality, not quantity that makes the difference.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 19:47:29

I don't have evidence, I have experience.

And it's not exactly hard to work out that limited resources can only stretch so far, and that behaviour support strategies don't work overnight.

AmberLeaf Wed 08-May-13 19:47:37

Yes wine and flowers for WellThen

gordyslovesheep Wed 08-May-13 19:47:42

pmsl @ 'plenty of support' I have a child who disrupts lessons - she walks out of class and has explosive rages - has done since she was 2 - she is 10 and we FINALLY have a CAMH's referral ...REFERRAL mind - not actual action - we have had very little support because there is NO MONEY for it - less and less now as children's services have born the brunt of gov cuts

My daughter is also learning at a level 2/3 years AHEAD of her class mates - she is exceptionally bright and horribly mixed up and it breaks my fucking heart - sorry if your child is minorly inconvenienced

'It is no good for anyone for the teacher to have to continually keep reprimanding for low level misbehaviour'

If something doesn't work the first time, or the second then why on earth do you keep doing the same thing continually hmm

greenformica Wed 08-May-13 19:49:45

We have huge problems in my sons school. The head is very accepting of bad behavior - lots of bright middle class able kids bouncing off the walls as a result.

Dinkysmummy Wed 08-May-13 19:50:22

viviennemary my dd went to one of those schools everyone wants to get their kids into.
Yes until they said she had SN and it was behavioural in nature, and then forced us out.

-Maybe some of the posters that want segregation should approach their schools and ask them to do the same for their precious DC who are being robbed of an education by my 'naughty, disruptive and mean' 5yo with SN

God, you're so right, Clouds.

Fuck knows how DS's school manages, with its higher than average children with SEN and FSM.

I must have imagined that there is very little disruption and only 1 child in 6 years has been referred to a PRU (with the option to return).

I must have imagined the way the pupils behave around school is exemplary and singled out in every Ofsted and Diocesan Report.

I must have had my back turned when I volunteered there and saw Behaviour policy consistently and fairly applied.

MerkinMaker Wed 08-May-13 19:52:10

Clouds: if it is not detrimental to a childs education to be continously taught by a TA then why are teachers needed?

ll31 Wed 08-May-13 19:52:23

While I can understand your frustration op,probably every parent can, but think answer is that there's no easy answer. And that parents of kids being disrupted can help at home,help lobby for needed resources etc. I do think that certainly in cases where there is no sen that a good teacher can sort a lot of disruption. and probably where there are sen issues too. Equally a teacher whose problems controlling class can exacerbate the issue with long term effects. this isn't a blame the teacher post just an acknowledgement of impact.

But op, the fact is all children are entitled to education ,not just ones who play nicely in the sand pit ...The ones who are disruptive for whatever reason are as deserving of education as your children.

Oh and I must have dreamed ratifying an updated Behaviour Policy and consulting parents on it.

Wishywashy ole me.

Trigglesx Wed 08-May-13 19:55:36

No, you still don't get it. Really really don't. The whole point is that if there was appropriate support brought into the classroom in a timely manner (you know, instead of waiting months), then some children that need extra assistance/attention will get it right away. Rather than the problems escalating while the school waits for funding or whatever.

If people pushed the government, LAs, etc for better funding and more timely response to problems, then maybe less narrow minded people will blame the poor children that are struggling while waiting for help.

Seriously, this is not rocket science. You really cannot grasp this? Short of drawing pictures, I'm at a loss as to how to simplify it for you.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 08-May-13 19:55:41

There are limited resources. .so lets them to the NT kids who need them less.

Hmm.

AThingInYourLife Wed 08-May-13 19:56:19

"Wow. Another person that feels their lives will never be touched by anything. Rose coloured glasses... on that table over there. You'll need them too."

confused

I have no idea what you mean, never mind how you think you can come to any conclusions about what my life has been touched by.

Thinking seriously disruptive pupils should be educated in an environment that suits them and stops their disruption of the education if other children doesn't seem particularly outrageous.

All children have a right to an education. All if them.

And not just an "education" in tolerance.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 20:00:42

BeerTricks, what makes you think that this has anything to do with FSM or even SEN?

It doesn't.

SEN may be involved, but it's not always. And especially when it comes to the younger children I work with, children who may have SEN don't yet have a diagnosis. And without the diagnosis, they don't get the support.

I know my schools behaviour policy thanks, it's all about reinforcing positive behaviour. Where it talks about consequences of negative behaviour, the worst consequence is exclusion, and various levels of exclusion prior to that. But if that's not acceptable to you, then perhaps you want to take that up with OFSTED who have recently given us a good report and commented on the excellent behaviour of our pupils and the way we deal with our higher than average number of children with SEN.

somewhereaclockisticking Wed 08-May-13 20:01:43

Dd1 and dd 2 have the same teacher for a subject. They are different years but both talk about very disruptive kids in their classes. I don't know if these disruptive kids have special needs and my girls don't know either but the teacher would know. However the teacher deals with it by just shouting all the time and it seems very little time is spent on teaching. Surely if the disruptive kids had special needs a teacher would not be allowed to shout? These kids are 14 & 15 so I would imagine if they were Sen it would be known by now. The teacher is actually off sick now and a substitute teacher is there and now he is spending lesson time just shouting. I don't think both teachers would shout at kids with Sen so does that mean that in this case the disruptive kids are just doing it for fun?

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 20:04:14

There are limited resources. .so lets them to the NT kids who need them less.

If I'm interpreting that correctly, then it's working on the assumption that the only child in the class with SEN, or indeed any slightly higher than average need, is the one who is being disruptive. What about the children with SEN that are found in lots of classes that aren't disruptive? What about the ones that have no SEN but are just naturally lower achievers academically? What about the NT children that are just anxious or need support in the variety of ways that NT children naturally do?

BeerTricks, what makes you think that this has anything to do with FSM or even SEN?

It was an example of how a whole school behaviour policy can enhance the school community and needn't be wishywashy.

It's not set apart from Inclusion, it's one of the foundations of Inclusion.

AmberLeaf Wed 08-May-13 20:08:01

And especially when it comes to the younger children I work with, children who may have SEN don't yet have a diagnosis. And without the diagnosis, they don't get the support

Well your school can't be that good then.

My sons diagnosis took about 2 years, but as soon as his school recognised that he probably had autism, they treated him as though already diagnosed and implemented strategies.

That is a good school.

Trigglesx Wed 08-May-13 20:11:21

***And without the diagnosis, they don't get the support.***

WRONG. Support is supposed to be based on demonstrated need, NOT diagnosis. If your school is waiting for a diagnosis, then they are very much in the wrong.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 20:12:00

Ok, lightbulb moment for me and I am perhaps projecting far too much over my frustration about a situation I am dealing with at work at the moment with a lovely, but disruptive child.

We have a strong and consistently applied behaviour policy, we have a supportive head that does what she can with the LA, we have excellent behaviour in the vast majority of our pupils. And we still have an ongoing problem.

timidviper Wed 08-May-13 20:15:31

I am a believer that generally children conform to expectations of them given the right support. If a child is brought up with expectations of good behaviour, they will probably behave well and vice versa if the parents/ school/ whoever expect them to be naughty, funny or excused from punishment no matter what.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 20:17:29

Amber and Triggles, yes, you are right, I know that. When my own son was diagnosed it made no difference to the way his school dealt with things, everything was already in place.

But in my experience, it is far easier to get support with a diagnosis. I as the parent wasn't offered support until we had it, although my child was getting everything possible.

My school is not waiting for diagnosis, we are waiting for someone that can do more than 'just' teach. When it's not obvious where the problem lies, it is very difficult to go about solving it.

PolterGoose Wed 08-May-13 20:18:44

Clouds with reference to your 19:45 post, surely English an Maths are the most significant lessons confused

PolterGoose Wed 08-May-13 20:20:30

I am a believer that generally children conform to expectations of them given the right support. If a child is brought up with expectations of good behaviour, they will probably behave well and vice versa if the parents/ school/ whoever expect them to be naughty, funny or excused from punishment no matter what

timid seriously, if it was that easy I'd have cured my ds by now, thanks so much for your words of wisdom.

OliviaMMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 08-May-13 20:21:25

Evening all

'And without the diagnosis, they don't get the support.'

I thought support had to be provided according to NEED, not dx. There are, as you mentioned, children with dx that don't NEED much support at all.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 08-May-13 20:23:42

Yes, but TAs can deliver lessons prepared, planned and reviewed by the teacher who would still be heavily involved and wouldn't cease to see the child in those subjects ever again.

I honestly can't understand why people seem to have such a problem with TAs working one to one with a child.

It's the OWSLA!!!!!

grin

Calm down bunnies.......