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To feel disgusted that Elle magazine are touting porn star Sasha Grey as a "feminist" ?

(428 Posts)
Scarletohello Tue 07-May-13 17:46:42

So I have seen a lot of porn and Sasha Grey is a very popular porn star. Mainly because she does very extreme stuff, for example the kind of scenes where she is gagged with a man's cock to the extent that she us virtually vomiting. And she acts like she is loving it. One of the quotes in the magazine article from one of her films is, " Rip my fucking holes open". It's the most brutal, mistogynistic, woman hating porn you can possibly experience. And she is talking about it as being liberating and empowering for women. I'm no prude but her stuff sickens me. And now she's written an erotic novel and has an interview in Elle magazine where the cover line is, " writer, actress, feminist,porn star".
Makes me absolutely despair of where we as women have come to if she is being described as a "feminist". She is absolutely everything anti feminist to me. Any thoughts? Also if you have never seen her stuff, prepare to be appauled...

Sparhawk Tue 07-May-13 17:47:52

YADNBU angry

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 17:49:58

Well maybe some women actually like giving blow jobs like that and think other women can just butt the hell out of it.

FasterStronger Tue 07-May-13 17:53:58

binks - what's to like about gagging? anyway, she is being paid to do it, so you have no reason to think she would do that for her own pleasure.

CloudsAndTrees Tue 07-May-13 17:55:04

I've never heard of the woman, but if she feels empowered and is successful doing what she does, and she identifies herself as a feminist, then who are you to tell her she isn't one?

Whether she is or she isn't feminist is about her state of mind, not what you thnk a feminist should be.

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 17:56:55

What's to like about how you perform oral sex? I don't know, I'm not you. But your style of blow job shouldn't exclude you from the feminist club.

How far are dicks allowed in my mouth before I automatically hate all other women?

I just think it's nuts to use that as a yardstick.

FasterStronger Tue 07-May-13 17:58:46

not being a feminist does not equal she is a misogynist

you cannot be a feminist and a misogynist but you can be neither.

FasterStronger Tue 07-May-13 17:59:33

its just the pornification of feminism.

Scarletohello Tue 07-May-13 18:00:35

Clouds and trees- I suggest you watch some of her stuff and tell me if you feel the same. I've watched a lot of porn and some of it can be erotic, exciting, taboo but her stuff literally makes me feel ill. I strongly feel women, especially mothers should watch some porn just to see what their partners, sons and men in general are watching.. And expecting, and normalising...

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 18:01:07

My point remains the same. What you do or don't like to do in bed has no bearing on being a feminist. It doesn't mean anything about you.

I'm usually pleased when young women call themselves feminist but yeah, it's weird that someone who's career is about servicing men in the most brutal fashion would see herself in that way.
Getting choked is like, so empowering...

Mintyy Tue 07-May-13 18:03:11

Yanbu.

Rufus20 Tue 07-May-13 18:03:36

"I just think it's nuts to use that as a yardstick."

Snigger

Katiekitty Tue 07-May-13 18:05:16

Shame on you Elle magazine.

ElectricSoftParade Tue 07-May-13 18:06:11

YANBU.

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 18:08:09

Can a woman not just enjoy what ever it is she enjoys without worrying about whether it's empowering? How feminist is that? Why should the onus be on her to make sure she's not doing the world a disservice while getting her rocks off?

Katiekitty Tue 07-May-13 18:08:09

Someone, somewhere has got very rich off this magazine feature.

I'm guessing top of the pile ain't Sasha.

badguider Tue 07-May-13 18:10:54

Hmm... I'd want to know what she says in her interview. Wikipedia calls her a 'former porn actress'...

I agree that her films sound anti-feminist... but wouldn't want to judge without reading her actual thoughts and opinions now.

Darkesteyes Tue 07-May-13 18:13:05

In this months Marie Claire (June issue) Katie Glass had a go at directing a feminist porn film.
There was a young woman in this film called Ashley.
Do you know the saddest thing that jumped out at me from the whole article about this ... when Ashley mentioned her job to her hairdresser, her hairdresser didnt want to touch her hair any more.
That made me feel incredibly sad. Because its just one example of the prejudice that female porn stars face. Its slut shaming and it sickens me. Porn stars are people just like anyone else and Ashley comes across as a lovely person.
Katie Glass came to the conclusion that so called feminist porn is just as exploitative as other porn and when the completed film was given to her she decided not to watch it.

Scarletohello Tue 07-May-13 18:14:54

She's actually a multi millionaire from the career she's had, very unusual these days but it's because of the extreme stuff she's willing to do. I'll say again, I'm not anti porn or anti extreme sex or experimentation or role playing, yes that can be empowering if done consciously and with respect and communication, in fact that is what bdsm is all about, but her stuff ( to me) isn't about that, and I worry about what message that's giving to young men when they see that kind of stuff...

Pontouf Tue 07-May-13 18:15:16

She's not just getting her rocks off though is she? This isn't what she's doing in the privacy of her own bedroom, she's performing for the titillation of men, she's portraying an image of women, normalising that behaviour.

FasterStronger Tue 07-May-13 18:16:16

I would find it more accurate if she was described as a business women rather than feminist.

porn is more about money than sex.

Katiekitty Tue 07-May-13 18:16:53

Binks, I'm glad you're here, can you clear this one up for me?

What's the difference between:

a) a porn actress/actor

and

b) a porn star?

I'm not sure myself and wonder about the correct terminology.
Genuine question.

YANBU
binks, the issue isn't really what she enjoys doing, it's the fact that she gets paid to enact really aggressive, woman hating sex acts for money, the consumption of which actively harms men and women, by perverting sexual norms and raising expectations that harmful and violent sexual behaviour is normal or expected. Hard to see that as compatible with feminism really.

lopsided Tue 07-May-13 18:21:03

Darkesteyes

I'm not saying I agree but I do think some professions are very damaging to society. I have little respect for porn stars and these sort of irritating articles are just trying to make it main stream. I feel sorry for those that are being exploited but for those with the power and choices I'm afraid I don't respect them and I'd be ashamed if this was my child ( boy or girl).

cocolepew United States Tue 07-May-13 18:21:40

YANBU.
I read that article after buying Elle for the freebie. The whole magazine is shite.

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 18:22:31

Yeah, but it is normal. Who are you to say it's not normal?

What's wrong with two consenting adults having aggressive sex?

Katiekitty - that's just semantics.

puds11isNAUGHTYnotNAICE Tue 07-May-13 18:22:56

Just googled Sasha grey elle magazine to see what it was about and this thread is the first response smile

Yeah, "rip my fucking holes open" is something all teenage girls should say- very empowering for us all.
The current porn industry is about men and money, anyone who thinks its doing good for women needs their head exam

Ined!

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 18:27:57

I wonder if Elle magazine is facing cancellation some time soon ?

I find that organisations close to the end use this shock attracting stuff in the throes of death

Katiekitty Tue 07-May-13 18:32:03

That's what I reckon Anyfucker.

Taking the porn ££££ before they fold.

Got to pay those shareholders somehow.

Shame on you Elle Magazine.

Darkesteyes Tue 07-May-13 18:33:10

euphemism i totally agree. But it isnt the men or the male porn stars who get slut shamed. Its the women.

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 18:34:24

How dirty are us girls allowed to talk then? What are the rules here? Can I say something filthy as long as I'm not disrespecting myself?

Because I gotta say, that sounds even more fucked up than a heavy handed wank.

It just annoys me. I know so many, many girls who LIKE this stuff. Genuinely. They like it. It isn't just for impressionable young squires who happened to google themselves sick. People do and will continue to like this regardless of the internet. The internet is reflecting a certain preexisting taste.

If you don't like it, don't watch it and don't do it. But don't make assumptions about the kind of people who do.

catgirl1976 England Tue 07-May-13 18:35:11

YY

She's not in the privacy of her own home having sex for pleasure

Shes on film being viewed by 1,000s of people having sex for money

There is a difference

Darkesteyes Tue 07-May-13 18:35:55

More! magazine got cancelled just two weeks ago. So thats probably made shareholders etc a bit jittery.
Its probably the same reason for Easy Livings "Passion" section.

ClartyCarol Tue 07-May-13 18:36:26

OP - do you have any opinion on more 'mainstream' porn actresses then? Don't you feel that the majority of porn is exploitative and has an adverse affect on how men view women, not just the films involving this particular person?

hopipolla Tue 07-May-13 18:36:42

YABVU its there magazine and can publish what they like within the law. If you don't like it don't buy it, its none of your business really.

FasterStronger Tue 07-May-13 18:37:14

what catgirl says.

binks - what makes you think SG is enjoying it?

MechanicalTheatre Tue 07-May-13 18:39:00

OP, you enjoy porn. Therefore you're not a feminist.

Hope that clears it up for you.

You are not the feminist police.

Katiekitty Tue 07-May-13 18:40:42

Go on then Binks and Binks's friends.

Earn yourselves some ££££££

What are you waiting for?
Why be MNtting when you could be raking it some hefty wedge. And money too. In your holes. All of them. Think of all the money all your holes can get you!

Go on!

Empower yourselves Binks and the 'so many, many girls' you know.

LouiseSmith Tue 07-May-13 18:43:02

I personally think "why the hell not" she is being paid for something most women give for free. Who cares. It isn't harming anyone. Its all between consenting adults, and only over 18s can view porn (and to anyone saying children can access it, yes they can. But isn't that up to us as parents to stop, blocking websites, and keeping computers in family rooms.)

Feminist may be a bit far, but the reason people dislike it, is because she is a women, and women shouldn't do that. It goes back to the double standard for sexes.

I personally couldn't give a rats arse how someone makes there money.

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 18:43:41

I don't know whether she is or she isn't. None of us do. But she isn't responsible for toning it down just because it isn't to your taste. If she wants to bang herself with rolling pins live on stage, she still shouldn't have the weight of the world on her shoulders. It still shouldn't matter about who she is as a person.

Elle have recently revamped, which I think is a result of a drop in circulation although that's hardly anything new for magazines nowadays.

Sasha Grey was not the cover star or main feature. Miley Cyrus was.

I think there is a feminist element to Sasha Grey and her story, I liked her in past interviews and she starred in Entourage sort of as herself and portrayed what I felt were actually some good points in a rather misogynistic tv show.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Tue 07-May-13 18:44:55

Can we clear something up? Does she describe herself as a feminist? If so YABU, if not YANBU.

Also not clear why you can watch a lot of porn but then get judgy about the people who appear in it? Do YOU describe yourself as a feminist?

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 18:46:29

That's real sweet of you to give me career advice Katiekitty, but I don't give a shit about empowering other women. Why should I? Men don't have this concern. I don't want it either.

Now who's a feminist?

Katiekitty Tue 07-May-13 18:46:58

Wow.

'most women'

'give for free'

Violent sex? as in 'rip my holes'
Really?
Do most women give violent sex?
(ignoring the 'for free' bit here, if you dont mind)

Katiekitty Tue 07-May-13 18:49:37

Binks says: That's real sweet of you to give me career advice Katiekitty, but I don't give a shit about empowering other women. Why should I? Men don't have this concern. I don't want it either.

Now who's a feminist?

I say: hahaha!

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 18:50:22

Not most, but some. Enough. Why does it matter to you?

I don't care how gentle and considerate a lover you are. It would be a bit off for me to prescribe the rhythm of your sexual antics to suit me, would it not?

Oh and what has annoyed me about your thread/some of the response are that she is being criticised for doing things for her own benefit rather than the benefit of women as a whole (unfortunate pun there). Men never get criticised for doing things for themselves rather than men as a gender group.

I believe She hasn't defined herself as a feminist, that's the magazine, which I think we should all be clear is the issue.

Also a feminist is simply someone who supports feminism, that's it, not someone who advocates for or acts on behalf of, just someone who supports it, if she says she does, she is by definition a feminist.

Scarletohello Tue 07-May-13 18:53:49

Wow it's turned into a bit of a catfight here, not quite what I was expecting. However I will say again, please watch some of her films and then tell me what you think ( feel a bit like an alien right now). I wrote thus because I am totally for womens' sexual experimentation and liberation and have been involved in the fetish/ swinging scene for many years and have personally found it very empowering which is why I hate this kind of thing....

OhLori Tue 07-May-13 18:56:37

I think the term "feminist" has probably become a redundant and meaningless term. "Empowerment" has come to mean anything at all, including selling your own body and exploiting other people.

Katiekitty Tue 07-May-13 18:57:29

Tig - the only porn actor mentioned in this thread is this Sasha Grey.

Unless you want to come up with some others, she, and her interview with Elle magazine. A women's magazine. Is all we've got to go on here.

I can't get past the:

"she is being criticised for doing things for her own benefit"

in your post as it's thrown me.

Do you really think she gets the benefit?
I don't understand.
Please tell me the benefit she gets?
I am genuinely interested in hearing the benefit as I've never thought of this before.
I hope you can reply.

Thank goodness for you binks standing up for the rights of the silent majority of women who are desperate for our holes to be ripped and to be choked- thirty years ago these were seen as 'out there practises' but now at last we can all share in them.

Elle
You smell
of abject desperation

CloudsAndTrees Tue 07-May-13 18:58:24

I genuinely don't understand why people get so worked up about stuff like this.

This sasha whatshername is happy doing what she is doing. She isn't responsible for anyone else. What everyone else does is up to them.

Isn't the fact that she can do what she wants to do and getting paid well for it a positive result of feminism? Ok, so women doing porn might not have been listed as one of the original aims of feminism, but feminism was supposed to be about giving women freedom of choice (amongst other things) not about allowing women to do things as long as its acceptable to every other women in existence.

GoshAnneGorilla Algeria Tue 07-May-13 18:58:49

YANBU

Her films are absolutely vile. If people want to claim that watching a woman being punched in the stomach and doing ass to mouth is a-ok and that it is fine and dandy for men to be getting off on stuff like this... I just have no words.

I just get so tired of the "cool girl" mentality.

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 19:00:51

I'm sorry, OP. I just feel very strongly about this particular issue. I don't mean any personal offense to you.

I have seen her films and she does go for it. But TigOldBitties sums it up for me. Why is she being criticised for doing things for her own gain and not so we can all cheer her on.

Also, I guess I don't understand what's so dreadful about aggressive sex.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 07-May-13 19:03:28

I don't give a flying fuck what type of films she makes or what type of sex she has who she has it with or how much she gets paid for it.

If its legal then its legal.

She can also describe herself as what ever she wants.

I'm pretty sure thousands of women have fought for years and years so other women could do what they damn well pleased with there own body.

Szeli Tue 07-May-13 19:05:15

Isn't the fact that she can do what she wants to do and getting paid well for it a positive result of feminism? Ok, so women doing porn might not have been listed as one of the original aims of feminism, but feminism was supposed to be about giving women freedom of choice (amongst other things) not about allowing women to do things as long as its acceptable to every other women in existence.

^^ this

and in her films she states in the 'interviews' yes she did in fact enjoy it. So let her be

x

GoshAnneGorilla Algeria Tue 07-May-13 19:05:23

Her films aren't "aggressive", they are about women being sexually degraded and abused.

flippinada Tue 07-May-13 19:09:31

People are actually defending abusive, aggressive porn where women are being tortured?

Wow, just...wow.

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 19:09:33

But if they're consenting, how are they being abused?

Does the door swing both ways? You can find videos of men having their ball sacks crushed with high heels. Are they being abused too?

Scarletohello Tue 07-May-13 19:11:12

Can someone please tell me how I get this thread moved to 'relationships' as I think it might be more appropriate there?

Katiekitty Tue 07-May-13 19:11:15

Bingo!

First call of the menz!

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 19:11:20

I am a Male Rights Activist

There, I said it...so it must be so

I am also Mother Theresa on a Monday, and Elle Mcpherson on a Tuesday.

I am sure you all acknowledge and agree with me.

CloudsAndTrees Tue 07-May-13 19:11:29

We have films about all sorts of things that are unacceptable. Doesn't any actor who ever played a Nazi Officer in a WW2 film have to justify themselves?

No. They don't. So why should a porn actress have to do so?

TunipTheVegedude Tue 07-May-13 19:11:51

'I'm pretty sure thousands of women have fought for years and years so other women could do what they damn well pleased with there own body.'

Only someone who knows nothing at all about the history of feminism could come up with this line.
Show me a quote, then, if you reckon this is what the Suffragettes were fighting for.

KatieKitty, I can happily reply. Although I'm a bit confused by

the only porn actor mentioned in this thread is this Sasha Grey.

Unless you want to come up with some others, she, and her interview with Elle magazine. A women's magazine. Is all we've got to go on here.

If that was in reference to me pointing out that Miley Cyrus (Pop star) was the cover star and main feature, I was simply pointing out details of the article that some of you may not be aware of, and also information which helps to establish more clearly the level of promotion Elle is giving SG.

In regards to your questions about her receiving the benefits of her actions, I will explain more thoroughly as you have said you haven't understood. I do really believe she is getting the benefit, I am of the strong belief that her decision to go into the porn industry, her decisions towards the content in which she appeared whilst a part of that industry, her decision to leave said industry and the other work as an actor, write and (I think?) musician are all very much to her own benefit.

This benefit that I refer to is primarily financial, but also there is the publicity (which could be argued as also being financial) and then I do think or at least i get the impression from her interviews and more recent work that she has gained some sort of emotional or intellectual development from her work in and outside of porn.

If you need further clarification do let me know.

hopipolla Tue 07-May-13 19:12:12

Whether you think her films are "aggressive" or abusive is of no importance, they are legal and she was happy to make them for which I'm sure she was well re-numerated. Similarly the magazine are entitled to describe her how they wish and if you don't like it then you should buy the magazine again. What other people choose to do is none of your business.

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 19:12:18

If I consent to this that or the other - and for the record, I do - how am I being abused?

I do honestly appreciate that you don't get it. But what is it you're so scared of?

Bogeyface Netherlands Tue 07-May-13 19:13:37

I think the problem isnt that she likes doing it, whatever floats your boat. ITs the fact that what she is filmed doing normalises the absolute degradation and abuse of women, which creates a false sense of "normal" for the men that watch it.

A friend of mine was brutally assaulted during consensual sex with a man that she had known for a long time and been dating for a few weeks. The least of what he did was bite her breasts so hard she bled. It later transpired that he had a major porn habit of the sort the OP describes. In court his lawyer tried to argue that his view of women and the world was skewed because of this and sadly, it did make a difference to his sentencing by the (male, natch) judge sad

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 19:13:57

OP, ask for it to be moved to FWR, not Relationships

Massive mistake for you to post this here in AIBU which mainly attracts the "cool", male-appeasing fuckwits on threads of this nature.

CloudsAndTrees Tue 07-May-13 19:14:03

How is this thread more appropriate for relationships? confused

I could understand you wanting it moved to the feminism board, but relationships?

Go back to your OP, click the report button on the top right, and ask for it to be moved if you want OP.

flippinada Tue 07-May-13 19:16:09

AF has it spot on I reckon.

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 19:17:32

I don't think Sasha Grey should be held responsible for rapists. They predate her. Or anyone like her.

Katiekitty Tue 07-May-13 19:17:44

Thank you Tig, I appreciate your reply.

Financial gain.

I can understand this.

The intellectual an emotional gain that you get the impression she has gained, less so.

If I had a son or a daughter, I would not want them watching violent porn.

If I had a son sor a daughter, I would not want to know they were engaging in violent porn.

as above: For financial gain.

If I had a son or a daughter, I would wish they had emotional and intellectual gain in other areas apart from being violently fucked.

Just my opinion.

flippinada Tue 07-May-13 19:17:44

God your poor friend bogeyface sad sad

CloudsAndTrees Tue 07-May-13 19:20:38

Bogey, if you are correct in thinking that porn made a difference to a judge when sentencing a rapist, then that's disgusting. But it is as a result of men, not women.

How is it make appeasing to think that women can do what they want with their own bodies? I honestly don't understand that. It's nothing to do with men.

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 19:21:25

hey, you defenders of women's "right" to have all their holes ripped on...come on over here

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 19:21:58

*open

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Tue 07-May-13 19:23:30

Binks, yes, those men are being abused too.

If I ask you to hit me in the face, and you do it, you can still be prosecuted for ABH.

ubik Tue 07-May-13 19:27:41

It's interesting that Ellle magazine is carrying this...I wonder if we are starting to see the results of pornography being so easily accessible for what must be 15 -20 years now via Internet. It seems to be presented as mainstream interest with no caveats, no critical analysis - I'm quite surprised it is in there.

However it makes a change from the usual 'Entrepreneur, human rights campaigner, actress, businesswoman ..^mother' fawning articles about Paltrow, Joliet et al

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 19:28:25

I don't agree that they are being abused. I think denying them the autonomy of their own bodies to enjoy what they chose, lest it not suit the greater good, is far more insidious.

CloudsAndTrees Tue 07-May-13 19:30:44

That thread is about prostitution, not porn. confused

Thats an important point Katie but I think also something that has to be challenged.

You are projecting your own moral, social, political and pleasure views onto others.

I am not someone who engages in violent sex acts and it would not and is not something I can personally see pleasure in. However, others do find it pleasurable. In the same way that if Graham down the road likes his wife to take a big steaming shit on his face for his sexual pleasure or my daughter grows up to be homosexual or my son enjoys fisting, it is none of my business, I cannot and should not have the power to dictate to them where they find pleasure as long as it is in a consenting adult context.

Its similar to saying you don't want them to have tattoos or mix with a certain crowd or join the BNP, all are things which as individuals we have the right to participate in for any sort of gain, be it financial, emotional or philosophical, regardless of what our parents, friends, neighbours or whoever think.

You may have a son or daughter who for some inexplicable reason get massive emotional or intellectual gain from being violently fucked and wish to pursue that, then what are you going to do?

giraffacake Tue 07-May-13 19:32:15

*MechanicalTheatre Tue 07-May-13 18:39:00
OP, you enjoy porn. Therefore you're not a feminist.

Hope that clears it up for you.

You are not the feminist police.*

I personally believe that you can enjoy porn whilst still being a feminist.

If the porn actress is being entirely consenting and simply in the business because she wants to pursue that type of career then who are we to judge her? She has made her own choice and it sounds like it's been a pretty successful one.

I know plenty of people who watch porn; it doesn't mean they don't believe in equality for women, etc.

ubik Tue 07-May-13 19:32:28

"You may have a son or daughter who for some inexplicable reason get massive emotional or intellectual gain from being violently fucked and wish to pursue that, then what are you going to do"

What intellectual gain could you possibly get from that? grin

Katiekitty Tue 07-May-13 19:32:30

Out of intrest, what's the going rate for a violent fuck in all holes, in a porn film?

From the actress's point of view.

What does she earn, per film?

Those who talk about financial gain, come on then?

And what percentage to her agent and other costs?

What does she walk away with, after the film?

Scarletohello Tue 07-May-13 19:33:26

Why I asked this to be moved to relationships and not the feminist thread is because the feminist one seems to be preaching to the converted and not so many people post on it and this is a mainstream issue! it also massively affects women in terms of how their partners view sex and women. We need to talk about this stuff!!

CloudsAndTrees Tue 07-May-13 19:36:16

Then leave it here or put it in chat.

It's not a relationships issue.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Tue 07-May-13 19:37:41

Binks, where do you draw the line? How is the fact that the bodily harm is inflicted during sex make it less of a crime than you hitting me in the face because I ask you too?

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 19:42:56

I believe porn is filmed prostitution.

The links are quite clear, for someone with any insight at all

All on the same spectrum...women as fuckable commodoties with holes to fill

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 19:45:47

If my son or daughter grew up to view being fucked in the arse so hard your anus eventually collapses as a shrewd career move I would consider myself failed as a parent.

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 19:46:20

I'm not going to dissect the whole reasoning behind masochism, because it would take far too long and would involve too much conjecture, but let me turn it back on you. Why do you feel so strongly that masochists must be stopped? Why do you feel that you need to help them? It really isn't your place to.

SplitHeadGirl Tue 07-May-13 19:46:37

Are people really saying that porn films and how women are treated does not affect other (all) women?? That what happens to this actress is only about her and her autonomy and nothing to do with anyone else??

Sheesh!!!!!

Didn't someone once say porn is about the destruction of the woman? How can anyone defend this?

Katiekitty Tue 07-May-13 19:47:13

Let's not forget about the equally empowered 'holes to rip'?

At what price?

To whom?

LastMangoInParis Tue 07-May-13 19:48:38

I'm pretty sure thousands of women have fought for years and years so other women could do what they damn well pleased with there own body

They have, sock. Which is why it's horrifying that apparently Elle is effectively normalising sexual violence.

Scarletohello Tue 07-May-13 19:49:15

Anyfucker. I think I love you!!

50shadesofvomit Tue 07-May-13 19:50:36

It's Elle magazine. They probably used the word feminist in the hope that people like you would write to the editor (if they have a letters page) or flatter her so that she or other porn actors/actresses appear in the magazine in future.

I think that people can do one thing at work and believe in something else. For example I would work at Nestlé even though the practice of pushing formula to mothers in developing countries is immoral and I would work for a cigarette company even though cigarettes cause cancer. Likewise people can work for a council but disagree with it's policies.

Yes AnyFucker as a shrewd career move, I would be rather unimpressed myself and wonder quite why I spent all that time doing science homework or other after school activities. But what if your daughter just liked it, not as a career move but that was how she got her kicks, that aggressive anal sex was her choice of pleasure, then how would you feel?

Genuine question, not being stroppy, would you feel that (pretending for some bizarre reason you knew this was her choice of sexual pleasure) that you could dictate to her that it was wrong, she was being abused, degraded etc?

LastMangoInParis Tue 07-May-13 19:52:01

Why do you feel so strongly that masochists must be stopped?

I don't think many posters hear are braying to 'stop the masochists', Bink. grin
The objections are that those sassy chicks hmm at Elle (who know that their core readership is probably all of, what 15 years old?) have decided to present porn which is particularly degrading as 'empowering'.

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 19:52:41

That's nice, scarlet smile

Err, you might not do when I say the next thing...

You know by being a regular consumer of porn yourself that you prop up this vile industry don't you ? I accept your "tastes" might be a bit more "mainstream" but there is a wedge and a thin end of it. <shrug >

Katiekitty Tue 07-May-13 19:55:46

Ok:

All those in favour of their daughters being violently fucked as a career move.. admit it here. You've admitted it's ok for you/your friends. The same for her too? Would you be ok watching it?

And.. all those with sons, please feel free, to admit here, that you would feel proud to see him in action. Giving or revieving. Violently?

You've been vocal in your support of women being violently fucked, so come on, would you want it for your child?

I bet none of you violent porn fans answer.

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 19:56:07

Tig, I wouldn't "dictate" anything, but I would still feel I failed as a parent if she indulged in sexual practices that damaged her body and potentially her fertility

Wouldn't you ?

Even more so if she "sold" the experience as "empowering" and laid it bare for punters to score her on.

Splitheadgirl, People aren't saying "that porn films and how women are treated does not affect other (all) women?? That what happens to this actress is only about her and her autonomy and nothing to do with anyone else??", but they, or at least I, am saying

1. Why is it her responsibility, why don't we attack the men in these films as aggressively for damaging male sexual expectations, why is it her?

2. Why does she have to have a responsibility to behave in a way that does not negatively impact other men? We don't do this to men, we don't say "oh those awful footballers, they're being very irresponsible in regards to the perception of men".

FreudiansSlipper Tue 07-May-13 19:57:31

Annabel Chomg apparently found the gang bang she took part in empowering and it challenged societies view of female sexuality hmm

she had sex or performed sexual acts (over 200) on 70 men in 10 hours. The documentary shows her in terrible pain, the men are acting like animals it is vile the documentary makers were horrified but all those in the porn industry celebrated this wonderful piece of work

Those that think women are not exploited should watch the documentary she very much felt she was in control. And where are all the female porn stars of the 80's some of the men are still around and very much celebrated like Ron Jeremy

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 19:58:39

But the argument seems to be:

Sasha Grey is portraying violent sex

Other people might be encouraged to do this in their own spare time (rather than having the lovely normal respectful sex they owe it to us to be having)

If people don't have lovely kind gentle sex, something awful is going to happen

But I'm at a loss to work out what horror you think will befall someone who has this type of sex?

Scarletohello Tue 07-May-13 19:59:09

Anyfucker- yes I know, I am a bit fucked up when it comes to watching porn, I get turned on by watching things that I know are degrading and abusive to women. Which is why I think thus particular women is OTT and her appearing in Elle is normalising sexual violence. I only bought the bloody magazine because it had a free mascara! That'll teach me...

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 20:00:37

I also believe very strongly as the mother of two teenagers that stuff like BDSM, anal etc are practices that come somewhere along the timescale of sexual experience

Not something you are expected to do soon after becoming sexually active at 16

The pressure is massive for teenagers to indulge in this stuff earlier and earlier and articles like this just reinforce it. And call me dull and boring, but i don't think teenagers have the maturity and life experience to manage it effectively and not get hurt...physically and emotionally

Any mother thinks that, surely ?

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 20:02:35

Tig, this thread is about SG specifically

If you would like me (or someone like me) to talk about the punter's contribution to the degradation of women, then I expect us to be here for several more hours yet

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 20:03:26

But on the plus side, it is a very good mascara! smile

I don't know AF maybe thats the difference then. I wouldn't feel I had failed if my child engaged in sexual practices or any practices for pleasure not as a career choice, that I personally didn't appreciate, as long as they were in a consenting context.

I do things which my mother finds "appalling", I don't think she feels she has failed and I certainly don't feel she has, I just think we have different sources of pleasure.

Obviously as a mother when your child does anything that can be detrimental to their health or dangerous, there is an element of concern but putting that aside I wouldn't have an issue with it. I suppose I might have a slightly freudian curiosity about it all, for example if my son enjoyed spanking I would wonder if it linked to being smacked as a child, or if there was the desire to inflict or receive pain from another consenting individual I would certainly ponder where that came from, but not feel I had failed.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 07-May-13 20:05:25

Show me a quote, then, if you reckon this is what the Suffragettes were fighting for

You mentioned the suffragettes,I didn't. I was under the impression there main aim was voting.

Plenty of porn actresses activly describe themselves as feminists as do other sex industry workers along side docters shop assistants and many other people.

Who are you to decide they are not.

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 20:05:41

Tig, again, we are talking about SG who is an advocate for practices that damage women's bodies being filmed for other's sexual pleasure

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 20:06:23

See, I don't see why you feel you have to run yourself down like that, OP. Why is the way you feel 'fucked up'? It's perfectly ordinary. You should not feel ashamed. You really shouldn't.

<It is an excellent mascara, I ordered that and the 'Bad Gal' one today as a result>

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 20:07:01

Sock, who are you to tell me I am not Elle Mcpherson ?

I said I was, therefore I am

yes ?

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 20:08:49

(Excellent choice, TigOldBitties)

MamaMary Tue 07-May-13 20:10:04

OP, YANBU.

If Sasha Grey is a feminist, then I'm the Pope.

Her brand of porn seems to be becoming more and more ubiquitous, sadly. I have read that producers of porn films can barely keep up with the demand for this violent, misogynistic stuff.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 07-May-13 20:20:04

If you are fair enough.

I wonder if she is also a feminist its my understanding you can be one and have a given name they are not the same thing. Perhaps you should have stated your belief in fairies or not or political beliefs.

Scarletohello Tue 07-May-13 20:20:40

I used the phrase fucked up because I sometimes feel very conflicted about watching porn, the sort of stuff that I get turned on by and that I know it's damaging to women. I have been involved in the fetish/ swinging scene for many years and they actually are very empowering and respecful places for women to explore their sexuality and to experiment with being submssive if they choose to and it has been both liberating and therapeutic for me. It's the exact opposite of abuse or doing things you don't want to. Which is why I feel very uncomfortable with someone like Sasha Grey promoting the mos base expression of female sexual experience as empowering and somehow feminist.

TunipTheVegedude Tue 07-May-13 20:21:47

'You mentioned the suffragettes,I didn't. I was under the impression there main aim was voting.
Plenty of porn actresses activly describe themselves as feminists as do other sex industry workers along side docters shop assistants and many other people.
Who are you to decide they are not.'

Forgive me, I assumed from your post, 'I'm pretty sure thousands of women have fought for years and years so other women could do what they damn well pleased with there own body' that you were talking about the women who fought for decades for women's liberation.

My mistake. Thank you for clarifying. I now understand you were only talking about those porn actresses who fought for the right for other women to be porn actresses.

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 20:22:22

Sock, I shall explain my point a little further for you

Just because someone says they are this, that or the other doesn't make it so

It's your actions not empty words that define you

TunipTheVegedude Tue 07-May-13 20:26:55

I would like to know if someone could be an animal rights supporter if their job was making films that encouraged people to torture animals, as long as no actual animals were harmed in the making of the film.
I think it would ring rather hollow.

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 20:28:57

I do see your point with that one. As in, her actions shouldn't be a contributing reason to her being a feminist?

Do you read erotic literature? I know it's the same principle, but there isn't that concern of wondering if the cast are having a shitty time.

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 20:31:07

Many people get over that "concern" very easily, Binks, it seems to me

their orgasm being much more important than whether someone's anus is being torn beyond repair, and whether or not they truly consented (with no coercion either financially or emotionally)

Katiekitty Tue 07-May-13 20:34:59

Erm - can anyone answer my good questions:
Here in full as they got missed. Or else the porn fans would have answered them. Obviously.

Here are both for your convienience:

Out of intrest, what's the going rate for a violent fuck in all holes, in a porn film?

From the actress's point of view.

What does she earn, per film?

Those who talk about financial gain, come on then?

And what percentage to her agent and other costs?

What does she walk away with, after the film?

And:

All those in favour of their daughters being violently fucked as a career move.. admit it here. You've admitted it's ok for you/your friends. The same for her too? Would you be ok watching it?

And.. all those with sons, please feel free, to admit here, that you would feel proud to see him in action. Giving or revieving. Violently?

You've been vocal in your support of women being violently fucked, so come on, would you want it for your child?

I bet none of you violent porn fans answer.

END OF QUESTIONS!
Go on, answer them, I want to know your answers!

LastMangoInParis Tue 07-May-13 20:38:17

Binks, erotic literature doesn't have a 'cast'. It's literature, you see. That means it's made up, words on a page. Not real people, lovey.
Oh dear. <shakes head and walks away>

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 20:40:30

Ew. Who wants to see their children having any kind of sex? That's absolutely disgusting. I'm not one for hitting the report button, but I would if I was.

sendingtheclowns Tue 07-May-13 20:40:46

Katiekitty, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but I could ask the same questions about my son being a stunt motorcyclist. Would I want him to do it? No! But it's a bit irrelevant if there is a legal industry and someone does want to do it. I'm afraid your questions are a bit of a red herring

Katiekitty Tue 07-May-13 20:44:38

Binks- report me if you want. I wish you felt the same about violent porn.

Send in the clowns - motor cycle stunts... yes, dangerous, but I bet folks bring along their kids to watch. Unless, it's motor cycle stunts involving anal, oral, vaginal and penis activity. I'm happy to be corrected if wrong.
If so, then, motor stunts come with a danger of death.
Does sex too? In your book?

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 07-May-13 20:47:57

So what must one do to be considered to be a feminist?

sendingtheclowns Tue 07-May-13 20:48:39

I'm not sure the point you're making Katie - the point I was making is that you asked would I be happy with my DC doing job X? I'm arguing that isn't a great argument for why X is a bad thing (unless there are some other reasons that one can easily make about porn) - that's all - it doesn't matter whether it's motorcycling or being a banker or a porn actress

Katiekitty Tue 07-May-13 20:53:11

Send in - the point I was making is you said your son was a stunt driver.

Correct me if I'm wrong?

Performing stunt drives is different from being violently fucked.

The former involves, sorry to say: death insurance.

Oh, hang on, maybe being violently fucked does too?

Anyone know?

Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

LastMangoInParis Tue 07-May-13 20:56:24

So what must one do to be considered to be a feminist?

Well, Sock, from my humble point of view, you must:
1. Treat other women with respect.
2. Be prepared to engage in discussion with other people.
3. Be honest.
4. Be prepared to learn.

Obviously 2. and 4. might depend on how much time and energy you have at your disposal.

Other posters might have other ideas.

Why, Sock, are you wanting to be 'considered a feminist', but worried that others will find you unacceptable as such?

FloraFox Tue 07-May-13 20:57:09

SG's "choice" has a damaging impact on women as a class by promoting and normalising a view of women as receptacles for violent sex. She is therefore not feminist, regardless of how she identifies herself.

A lot of the time this so-called liberal "everyone's choice is valid" bullshit boils down to "I'm okay and I don't care about other people".

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 21:02:23

Part of being a Feminist is understanding how individual actions have an impact on wider society

LastMangoInParis Tue 07-May-13 21:02:40

A lot of the time this so-called liberal "everyone's choice is valid" bullshit boils down to "I'm okay and I don't care about other people".

Yep, that or a fear of being regarded as uptight/old fashioned/naïve, yada, yada...

I sometimes think relentless 'liberalism' is to the 21st century what obsessive prudery was to middle class Victorians. And I think in the future people will look back on it as a similar kind of mass hysteria.

(And I hate the phrase 'yada, yada'. It springs to mind in relation to bullshitty 'liberals', though. And YY to 'so called'...)

sendingtheclowns Tue 07-May-13 21:07:02

Katie, my son's not a stunt motorcyclist ...

WorraLiberty England Tue 07-May-13 21:08:24

Clouds and trees- I suggest you watch some of her stuff and tell me if you feel the same. I've watched a lot of porn and some of it can be erotic, exciting, taboo but her stuff literally makes me feel ill. I strongly feel women, especially mothers should watch some porn just to see what their partners, sons and men in general are watching..And expecting, and normalising...

Why didn't you include 'wives, daughters and women in general' in this post? confused

As you've proved yourself, it's not just men and boys who watch porn.

TunipTheVegedude Tue 07-May-13 21:09:13

'I sometimes think relentless 'liberalism' is to the 21st century what obsessive prudery was to middle class Victorians. And I think in the future people will look back on it as a similar kind of mass hysteria.'

Interesting. You may well be right.

SuffolkNWhat Belgium Tue 07-May-13 21:10:06

By normalising what she does she is (inadvertently perhaps, but I doubt it) ensuring that those who perform with little or no choice in the matter are forced into performing more and more violent scenes. Thus the cycle continues.

For every "empowered" porn star there are 100s more or not so lucky to be in that position.

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 21:10:52

But no one has answered my question - what is you think will happen as a result of these people being encouraged to have violent sex in their leisure time?

Seriously, what?

Because in my experience, afterwards we have a cuddle and a sandwich. Sometimes I have a strepsil.

I was kidding about the strepsil before anyone piles on! grin

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 21:11:17

Yes, brilliant re. "mass hysteria"

and the people who refuse point blank to go along with it are accused of being "hysterical" manhaters who despise sex

oh, the irony

WorraLiberty England Tue 07-May-13 21:13:01

I would have thought it wiser to have the Strepsil first grin

Or you could suck a Fisherman's friend...

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 21:14:07

Binks, you haven't answered my question about whether you agree with the pressure on 16yo's to perform anal sex, get gagged by cocks, perform blow jobs on multiple males, get roughed up etc etc is something we should be writing off as "harmless"

ExRatty Tue 07-May-13 21:15:30

OP

you are very definitely not being unreasonable

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 21:17:31

I think sixteen year olds feel under pressure to do a lot of things they haven't the maturity for. This is why porn, like alcohol, is not for under eighteens.

Now what do you think will happen to a thirty five year old who mutually enjoys this stuff with her partner?

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 07-May-13 21:17:58

No mango I was just wondering. Because all I've ever really come across n here is what you can't do ( vivid memories of a shaving thread)

FloraFox Tue 07-May-13 21:18:42

Binks

- they could be pressured into extreme acts when they are not mature enough to know what they are getting into

- they could get injured

- their relationships could be debased

- they could regret it

- they could be psychologically damaged by being treated like a worthless punchbag.

The vast majority of people do not have the type of sex depicted in these films because the vast majority of people would hate it (either to give or receive). Otherwise, we would not find these images shocking and/or this type of porn would be more common.

But hey, you're okay with it so fuck everyone else.

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 21:19:46

Worra - the truly hardcore of us save the strepsil for later. We like to feel the burn!!

Scarletohello Tue 07-May-13 21:20:17

Yes Worral I completely agree with you, I think I said mothers as this is mumsnet but I think in our society there is a striking lack of discussion amongst women about the kind of porn that is available and how it is affecting us all. Particularly young people as if that's all they know about sex how on earth can they have healthy relationships with each other? It really pisses me off when people say we shouldn't talk to young people about pornography and sex. We have to because they're seeing it anyway!! I would love people to not be so squeamish about it but to be able to express what's ok and what's not ok. For example, respect, sensuality, fun, communication etc. The kids of today are only learning about the most base expressions of ( male) sexual desire and it is already having an effect on the types of sex, and sexual violence that girls and young women are experiencing.

ecclesvet Tue 07-May-13 21:20:27
TunipTheVegedude Tue 07-May-13 21:20:45

I fear Sock's "vivid" memories may also be false ones....

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 21:20:50

Porn isn't for under 18's

My sides are splitting grin

Binks, if you bothered to read my comments above you would see that I feel that porn is eroding the natural progression of sexual experiences.

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 21:24:07

And my view of it is:

You can get injured having any kind of sex.

Most people do this consensually and in a close loving relationship.

Again, you can regret any kind of sex.

They could be thrilled and excited by being treated like a worthless punchbag.

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 21:26:43

Yeah and alcohol ain't neither but we don't berate bar keeps.

That's because you're imagining that everyone ultimately wants the same kind of sexual experience as you. They don't.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Tue 07-May-13 21:28:13

What harm do I think will come to, say, men having their testicles walked on with high heels, to use your earlier example?

Considerably worse than the damage from being kicked there, I'd've thought.

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 21:29:17

You don't think certain practices carry more risk then ?

You don't think that a 16yo's anatomy and physiology is very different to that of a 35yo woman (who may have had several pg's and deliveries)

You think there is no difference in the ability of a 16yo to make informed choices about what is a healthy sexual relationship ? You think a 16yo starts his/her sexual journey with all the coping mechanisms in place ?

Seriously ?

Binks, I don't give a shiny shit about how much you are projecting about your super-fun, smack-em-up sex life but you sound like one very cold fish to me

Katiekitty Tue 07-May-13 21:29:37

Sendingthe clowns - erm, I was going by this qiote from you about your 'son':

Katiekitty, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but I could ask the same questions about my son being a stunt motorcyclist.

confused

LastMangoInParis Tue 07-May-13 21:30:27

Sock perhaps you should pop over to FWR where you might find some threads that will help you see what you can do, with the help of, and thanks to, feminism and feminists. You could also have a look at some of the books that poster recommend to each other?

Binks WRT to your question about the effects of 'violent' sex:
Effects on 35 y.o? Dunno, really, depends on the person and the circumstances.
Effects on 16 y.o? Well, my instincts and logic tells me that any 16 y.o. who's having violent sex either isn't consenting to it, or is not consenting freely.
I say this because I think it's very unlikely that rough sex is something that people with very little sexual experience should be doing or will genuinely want to do. And, as I understand it, 16 is the minimum age of consent. Therefore, 16 y.os. shouldn't have much sexual experience.

I think it's fairly obvious that Elle is read by people quite a bit younger that 16 (mostly girls, I believe). Young teenagers can be quite confused and vulnerable, particularly about sex. (I'm not sure if you're aware of this, Binks.) Also, quite a lot of young people have difficulties setting boundaries. If magazines like Elle are putting across messages that it's 'empowering' for girls to engage in, or accept rough sex which is likely to hurt them physically and possibly be really unpleasant for them, AND galvanise any belief that it's normal, acceptable or even desirable to be physically and verbally hurt and abused, I think this is a bad thing.

LastMangoInParis Tue 07-May-13 21:32:27

Binks, I don't mean this rudely, but you sound as if you have quite a sheltered life and aren't really aware that for many people, especially young people, the world's not such a safe place as it seems to be for you.

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 21:32:33

I don't think we're ever going to agree on this. And I don't think that either of us is entirely right or wrong.

I shall refrain from comparing you to a fish though, cheeky!

Katiekitty Tue 07-May-13 21:32:40

Binks

What are the chances of getting injured from vaginal sex?

Violent sex? (gagging-oral or violent vaginal, or violent anal?)

The clue is in the question.

I'll spell it out for you as you're not seeing it:

V I O L E N T

That help you any?

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 07-May-13 21:32:51

No turnip.it turned into quite a unpleasant bun fight.

Granted I tend to lurk in aibu and only occasionally stray into other topics I expect that may be why when I read threads like that they do tend to be rather hostile.

But I was asking because I'm interested, and fwiw I don't watch any porn ever and I don't have violent sex well I don't have any sex usually (only twice since the beginning of 2011). I have genuinely only ever seen threads about feminism saying what you can't do and be one and its usually appearance related or pornography related and they do tend to get quite heated.

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 21:33:59

No I have most certainly not led a sheltered life. Not at all.

Katiekitty Tue 07-May-13 21:34:28

Elle magazine, as far as I know, is read by young women.

By young, I mean 16 - 25.

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 21:35:44

But you can get injured doing all kinds of shit. Why are you not protesting that?

Katiekitty Tue 07-May-13 21:36:51

It definitely seems like Elle magazine are taking the porn pound to stay afloat.

LastMangoInParis Tue 07-May-13 21:37:12

I don't think we're ever going to agree on this.

We might do sometime, Binks. Nobody need have a fixed viewpoint. (See my answer to Sock's question on feminists, above wink.
Still happy to read anything else you have to say grin)

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 21:37:13

Binks, do you think the people disagreeing with you on this thread have had a "sheltered life" and we simply don't understand that getting injured during sex is something that we could never understand in our poor state of enlightenment ?

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 21:38:05

Boxing. Why don't you protest against boxing. Tom Hardy made a film about MMA and he was a right bloody mess at the end of it. What's that encouraging? It might be an eighteen, but what's to stop younger people watching it? Why aren't you all up in his grill for being generally misanthropic?

LastMangoInParis Tue 07-May-13 21:38:12

No I have most certainly not led a sheltered life. Not at all.

And you're completely unshockable, right? grin

Katiekitty Tue 07-May-13 21:38:39

What like Binks?

Baking and being rogered by a rolling pin?

Gardening and being double fucked by a hose and a trowel?

Is this what you mean?

LastMangoInParis Tue 07-May-13 21:38:49

Binks - this thread isn't about boxing. hmm

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 21:40:18

Yeah, and we could all get run over by a bus tomorrow....

Lazy, lazy argument

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Tue 07-May-13 21:41:35

Binks, I don't like boxing either.

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 21:41:55

That's not what I think. And my name is a quote from my favourite comedy series. It's just a silly joke.

I'm not saying your views aren't valid and sure, someone has to have them. But I think it would be very rude for me to tell everyone that they have to have sex to my rules. So I don't think you should get to tell everyone they have to obey yours.

Scarletohello Tue 07-May-13 21:42:16

Sock- this is my point. Women should look at porn to see what the fuck is going on there!! It affects us ALL. That is why I feel so bloody outraged that a mainstream magazine such as Elle is giving thus woman credibility. It's NOT OK!!!

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 21:43:00

I don't want you to "obey" I want you to think about what you are saying

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 21:43:30

My point is, why don't you hate on Tom Hardy for making money out of glorifying and encouraging violence?

themaltesecat Tue 07-May-13 21:43:44

Amazing what passes for feminism these days.

That dreadful Caitlin Moran is another porn apologist, isn't she?

Katiekitty Tue 07-May-13 21:43:45

(as an aside - isn't boxing ususally man against man? Not man (and man and man) on woman??)

Sparklyboots Tue 07-May-13 21:44:56

I actually can't get over the latent stupidity of the 'it's her choice and she gets paid ergo it's empowering' argument. Apart from the indefensible assumption that any choice is 'free' as in, baseless, unrelated to inculcated value systems, 'innate' or 'natural', are we really soooo beholden to market values that we unproblematically equate financial wealth with absolute empowerment?

Anyway point I want to make is, why are we confusing people's personal sex lives with the porn industry? It's not about SG' s intimate relationships, it's about a product she sells. Which normalises violence against women rather than framing it as a fetish, and does so without critique or comment, as we would expect in other cultural products which give positive reviews of socially unaccepted behaviour/ individuals (e.g. films with sympathetic Nazis in, for the poster making that point). In fact, it is the lack of critique or comment that the product contains which frames it as 'normal'. Any other cultural product with a similarly (though not sexually) masochistic character would require a context, a comment on where that behaviour came from. The lack of context in pornography wrt such 'desires' is what presents it as normal, straightforward, unequivocally sexy, and therein lies its potential for harm. It's FA to do with policing ppl' s personal choices and everything to do with agreeing to public values that do not perpetuate harm against individuals or groups of ppl within that public.

TunipTheVegedude Tue 07-May-13 21:45:27

Sock - if you think there are appearance-related threads on feminism saying you can't do things and be a feminist you are almost certainly misremembering.
You may perhaps be confusing feminists saying you can't do things, with feminists saying certain things are not ^in themselves feminist acts^: thus, not 'you can't be a feminist and shave your legs' but 'shaving your legs is not in itself a feminist act'.
You may also be confusing 'you can't be a feminist and do x' with 'the prevalence of x is a feminist issue' (as in threads about plastic surgery, where in threads of hundreds of posts only a tiny number of posters, generally not FWR regulars, tend to make the claim that you can't be a feminist and have plastic surgery.)
I am a feminist. I do not wear high heels. I believe that the prevalence of high heeled shoes is a feminist issue. I have never said and would never say that the moment a woman puts on a high-heeled shoe she immediately stops being a feminist.
The distinction is fairly subtle but I'm sure you can grasp it smile

LastMangoInParis Tue 07-May-13 21:46:20

Binks - I haven't noticed any poster on this thread trying to get other people to have to their rules. confused grin
If you think there are posts where posters try and to this, which posts do you mean?

Scarleto I have to say I also think that those posters chirping about how 'harmless' porn is probably haven't seen all that much of it.

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 21:46:50

I'm saying I'm perfectly happy with my sex life. I don't need rescuing from it or myself. I know dozens of people who see the same way as me. None of us have any broken bits or long term issues.

So right back at you, consider that.

LastMangoInParis Tue 07-May-13 21:47:17

have sex to their rules, even! grin - and also blush of course

WilsonFrickett Tue 07-May-13 21:47:20

I hate boxing actually. The thought of watching two people hurting each other for money and a crowd's pleasure turns my stomach.

But the thread's about porn. Violent porn. And whether presenting violent porn as some kind of proto-entrepreneurial career step is a good idea. I think not, personally.

LastMangoInParis Tue 07-May-13 21:48:18

OMG, Binks, no one was trying to rescue you.
(Sorry, but I'm laughing out loud, here.)
Are you OK?

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 21:48:55

Binks, it is possible to have issues with more than one contentious area at a time

I have opinions on all sorts of thins. But we are talking about a porn actress known for having violent and degrading acts done on her for the delectation of others being touted as a "feminist"

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 21:51:53

I understand now

This thread is actually all about Binks and his/her sex life

How silly of us not to notice that hmm

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 21:53:03

That was a really eloquent post, sparklyboots. Very well written.

It is time for me to go to bed now. It's been an interesting debate. Good to have views from each of the extreme ends of the spectrum.

Night all!

McBalls Tue 07-May-13 21:54:03

Blinks -you know this thread is about violent porn? And some shitty article linking it, via a 'star' of the genre, to feminism?

Cos you seem to be confused, have whatever kind of sex you want, I doubt anyone here gives two hoots....

Have you never taken part in a discussion about porn vs feminism before? Cos you seem to be at ground zero. It's all whooshing over your head but you have so little insight you don't even realise.

BinksToEnlightenment Tue 07-May-13 21:54:56

Hey, Any Fucker, you should be honoured to be blessed with my candour! ;)

Ok really must go now. I hadn't realised how late it had got.

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 21:56:12

Your "humour" is quite jarring in this context, Binks.

Dereksmalls Tue 07-May-13 22:10:26

For reference, in the interview with SG in the Sunday Times a couple of weeks ago she said she earned $200,000 a year from porn.

I think if you want to have violent sex with a partner or in an environment where you know you are fundamentally respected and are essentially role playing the opposite then that's one thing but a huge proportion of the audience will be watching because they have no respect for women. I don't think feeding this should fall under the banner of feminism.

Scarletohello Tue 07-May-13 22:11:44

Anyway very glad I posted this, has set off a v interesting discussion and I'm not left fuming about this on my own. I keep banging on but we need to witness this stuff and we need to talk about it. Saying oh I never watch porn, doesn't mean it's not out there...

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 22:15:26

Scarlet, do you think this thread has made you think more deeply about your own contribution to the porn industry ?

poorbuthappy Tue 07-May-13 22:17:09

This thread has been very enlightening from both points of view. And as a lurker rather than an opinion poster the fact it almost ended up a bun fight but then didn't, has kept me reading and therefore being educated.

Please can we not ruin it now?

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 22:18:20

Who is "ruining" it ?

EasilyBored Tue 07-May-13 22:18:30

Women don't make the choice to sell their bodies, in a vacuum. There is nothing feminist about what she is doing, what she is portraying to other women and men, and what the men viewing are thinking about her.

grimilaura1 Tue 07-May-13 22:21:29

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poorbuthappy Tue 07-May-13 22:28:14

Ruining it probably wasn't quite the right turn of phrase.
The few posts prior to me starting typing on my phone (so the last hour or sosmile) seemed to be less an exchange of views and opinions.

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 22:29:30

I don't trust that link by grimi hmm

poorbuthappy Tue 07-May-13 22:41:00

Mmmmm I fear you may be correct.

Darkesteyes Tue 07-May-13 22:45:26

Me neither.

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 22:55:21

ah, deleted I see smile

AnyFucker Germany Tue 07-May-13 22:56:37

these threads attract some lovely people, dontcha think ?

a lovely industry, lots of lovely people just doin' their thang and none of it influencing the lives of the people around them

no sirree

Sorry, I didn't get to end of thread, want to go to sleep BUT

Elle is US owned, not likely to hit the rocks anytime soon and the porn star would not have been paid in any way. No celebs in magazines are paid. Magazines don't have big bucks to spend anymore, advertising revenue and circulation in decline.

The editor of Elle has always liked being 'shocking'

But OP YANBU

OhHullitsOnlyMeYoni Tue 07-May-13 23:09:55

Plenty of people do things that they like in the privacy of their own home. I am sure a lot of people do like aggressive sex with their partner, of choice (to be clear) but this is very different to a woman being paid to do these with a stranger who has no care for her well being as the intention is to sell a 'rough as it gets' image.
I am not being a prude but some things stick in the mind and watching her doing these acts is likely to cause an impression on any young boy or girl who sees her in Elle and looks her up. Do we really think that a teen should be made aware of this kind of pornography in the first place simply because they are reading Elle? Yes I know some teens will be aware of her and they are 'cool' or whatever, but you can't say that this isn't sending an image to both sexes that this is normal.

Bogeyface Netherlands Wed 08-May-13 01:46:13

The issue is not what she chooses to do, but the fact that she normalises brutal sexual violence. It means that some people will view that as normal and acceptable, just as the man who attacked my friend. He seemed to genuinely not understand why she wasnt hot for it as he expected her to be.

That is why what she does is wrong. If she gets her kicks by having her perineum ripped from vagina to anus then thats up to her, but please dont send out the message that every woman gets off on that.

catgirl1976 England Wed 08-May-13 06:27:11

Binks. It's not about people being scared of 'extreme' sex. It's about people being concerned about 'extreme' sex being portrayed as the 'norm' and not therefore 'extreme' at all, but just 'what you do'.

Now, you may love a bit of violent sex. Marvelous, knock yourself out (or have your DP do it for you, whatevs) but you have to admit, that sort of sex is not the norm and not for everyone.

It needs to be conducted in a relationship with an amount of trust IMO and an understanding of the limits of the other person.

Porn is often a young persons first introduction to sex. (I am not saying this is right or should happen, but it does)

Due to the internet, we've moved an awful long way from finding a Hustler magazine in the bushes. If Sascha Grays films form your image of sex, you may feel that sex is standard and feel pressurised into replicating the sex in those films. Even though you may not enjoy it, feel comfortable, understand it, or be with a partner with whom it is safe to explore that sort of sex. Which isn't good.

I may enjoy my DH choking me till I pass out (I said may - it's an example). That's fine. Because I trust him, because I enjoy it, because I consent, because he knows my limits, blah blah - but importantly, because I am acting in as close to a bubble as I can get. The only person that impacts on is my DH, and assuming we don't split up and he doesn't cheat, it's had a minimal impact on other women. Hence, no one cares what you, or I or the postman get up to in bed (usual caveats about consenting adult), because its impact on the rest of society is pretty negligible.

Oh, and because other peoples sex lives are boring. Even yours - promise.

Porn is rather different as it does have an impact on society and on sexual culture. Therefore, people care about it and many people feel the 'extremes' of sex should remain just that and should not be presented as the mainstream, which creates a pressure for people to participate regardless of whether they enjoy it, want to or are in a safe position to do so. This is particularly so when we live in a world where porn is so easily accessible and so often accessed by children.

A while ago you'd would have had to go to a specialist shop to get hold of extreme porn. It would have been a mission for an adult and pretty near impossible for a child. So the impact on society is much smaller. Now you just click a button. Or read about it in Elle magazine.

AnyFucker Germany Wed 08-May-13 07:18:58

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LaLaGabby Wed 08-May-13 07:23:23

Surely performing in violent, degrading porn makes Sasha Grey the victim of misogyny rather than its perpetrator? Being the victim of misogyny shouldn't exclude you from being a feminist.

But no, apparently actually having violent abusive sexual acts done to your body makes you a perpetrator. Meanwhile, the OP who watches this porn for her own titillation is a victim of porn? hmm

Sorry no. It is just possible that such a person is a victim of misogyny, presumably because she's too brainwashed to know better.

Alternatively it could just be that she's completely irresponsible and cares nothing for the effects of what she does on society around her. Doesn't sound very feminist to me. I don't see why anyone should assume that performing in degrading porn must make one a victim.

This "I'm a feminist just because I say I am" is bollocks. The sooner it stops the better. The term has to mean something.

BinksToEnlightenment Wed 08-May-13 07:55:56

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BinksToEnlightenment Wed 08-May-13 07:57:44

And I won't report your post because I think people should see just how far you will go to prove a point.

Not on at all.

vic1981 Wed 08-May-13 07:58:59

Hjhkhhqgnjggyugßjhjgt

NiceTabard Wed 08-May-13 07:59:34

She didn't suggest that you were into child porn confused

BinksToEnlightenment Wed 08-May-13 08:04:15

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flatpackhamster Wed 08-May-13 08:08:53

It's the old 'play the person, not the ball' technique, Binks. FWIW I have found your contributions to this thread interesting. Not half as interesting as I have found the relentless judging of other people's social and sexual habits by the usual suspects.

BinksToEnlightenment Wed 08-May-13 08:22:13

Thank you, flatpack.

Hawkmoon269 Wed 08-May-13 08:27:36

I think catgirl makes some very good points.

But to be honest, I wish I hadn't seen this thread. Makes me feel sick and sad. I'm only in my 30's and have never watched porn. I'm now even more pleased that I don't have any violent degrading images in my head.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I didn't think AF meant child porn...

flatpackhamster Wed 08-May-13 08:30:16
AnyFucker Germany Wed 08-May-13 08:30:29

Child porn? What are you talking about, binks ?

I merely suggested it may not be wise to take seriously the contributions of someone who, in the space of 24 hours, has extolled the virtues of violent sex and how lovely it is to be treated like a little girl

Any other connections you see are entirely of your own making

BinksToEnlightenment Wed 08-May-13 08:41:21

You didn't merely suggest anything. And you don't continue to merely suggest it either.

Really wrong. Really really wrong.

Catgirl, I'm running late for work and distracted, but I do see your point. My concern is less with porn and more other people thinking they have the right to dictate other's private lives. It is a difficult issue, but I don't feel censorship should be the solution.

flatpackhamster Wed 08-May-13 08:46:03

Perhaps we should also ignore the contributions of someone who considers it good form to produce the basest smears imaginable on a person, merely in order to 'win' an argument on the internet. Such a person is wicked in the extreme.

flippinada Wed 08-May-13 09:06:14

Don't be silly. No-one has said anyone is in to child porn.

However, If you go on (and on and on and on) about your sex life and what you get up to, people are going to draw their own inferences.

WilsonFrickett Wed 08-May-13 09:51:08

I have no interest in your sex life Binks, or in anyone elses. No-one is "trying to dictate" what happens in peoples' private lives. The whole point of porn is it is NOT private - it is a public commodification of what is private. So bringing censorship into the debate is a bit of a red herring.

Lazyjaney Wed 08-May-13 10:04:02

Ignoring the ins and outs of porn, are those arguing Sasha Grey is not a Feminist actual Feminists themselves, or just that know what a Feminist should be?

Seems to me you can guarantee that the first person to attack any Feminist is another Feminist, it's like a Monty Python scene.

Sasha Grey would find the discussions on this thread, interesting and is quite capable of raising as good a points as you would find if this thread was in "Feminism". I have watched the discussions that she takes part in around these issues and the issue of Teens in porn films. I watch porn, mainly extreme and like extreme/adventurous sex. I don't like to watch porn films with teens in, I prefer women of at least late 20's. In terms of the original question, she quit porn at 21, she has other interests that doesn't involve sex, so it is perfectly valid to be described as a Feminist, if her opinions and behaviour allow her to be described as such. A woman shouldn't carry the label placed on her between the ages of 18-21, as once happened. I think that's it's a shame that the ability to make so much money, from such dubious means exists for Teen girls and I say that as someone who has/had "dalliances" with the sex industry.

Binks, do you really think that porn has no influence on people's sexual attitudes and behaviour? Do you think that teenagers watching violent sadistic porn will emerge unaffected? If that's what you believe then I can see why you wou,d think that violent porn is harmless as long as the participants consent. However, if you acknowledge that violent sadistic porn has an effect on its viewers, which is a fairly established, evidenced and mainstream view, then you must see how a woman who participates in this negative influencing of sexual attitudes cannot be a feminist.

I watched a sahsha grey clip yesterday after reading this thread. I avoided the gang bangs and watched an oral sex clip. She was having her head held by a man who was pushing his penis to the back of her throat and holding it there until her eyes watered and she gagged. He then held her hair and fucked her mouth again until she gagged. She then used the saliva and vomit that emerged from her mouth as lubricant. It was utterly gross. Now I understand that there are women who genuinely enjoy that treatment that's another issue but what disturbs me is the fact that teenage boys will watch that and take from it the belief that that is what oral sex is supposed to be like, and that women enjoy it. Most women do not enjoy that treatment and yet they may feel obliged to allow it (especially young women, or sex workers).

NiceTabard Wed 08-May-13 10:12:20

I guess the question would be, what is she doing in her life to further women's liberation?

Certainly her job is not a feminist role. And the juxtaposition of "porn star" and "feminist" in an article heading is never comfortable.

For all I know she donates to charities that help women and is a vocal online commentator. I don't know, I don't know anything about her and have never seen her films. Does it say in the article what she does for feminism or is it just a statement that she is one. Like I say, her job isn't feminist whichever way you look at it and if she didn't say what she did that was feminist then it is not unreasonable to be somewhat dubious of the claim.

If people don't understand why porn is on the whole bad for women and girls as a group then I think there have been some books written about it.

OhHullitsOnlyMeYoni Wed 08-May-13 10:15:10

The trouble with her being called a feminist isn't about what she chose to do for herself, but her lack of regard for the impact on society. She made a lot of money and didn't care that teens are having her 'extreme porn' normalised. She got more money than normal porn stars BECAUSE is is not your average. Fair enough she didn't distribute or market it (as Elle magasine seems to be doing hmm ) but she clearly didn't have the forsight to think that in the wrong hands it could be touted to teens in this way. She has to take some responsibility for that as she knew she was being filmed to be seen. This is why it is hard to say she is a feminist, IMO.

NiceTabard Wed 08-May-13 10:22:46

I agree with that OhHullits but on the other hand f it hadn't been her it would have been someone else. I imagine the people coming up with the stuff to do were the men making the films. They will be able to find someone somewhere to do pretty much anything I think if they pay right / look in the right places. I tend to think that just because someone somewhere will consent to something doesn't automatically mean it is fine, and especially not that it is fine to film and to make available to schoolchildren. Which it is no matter what people might say. And what kind of effect does it have on their sexualities? When they are told what sex is via the porn industry, rather than finding out for themselves through exploration. How many pairs of 16 yo starting out in sexual relationships would come up with the ideas that are shown to them, by themselves? How many are pushing themselves into trying things that are at the more extreme end of sex, which previously would have come about much further down the path of sexual experience?

I think that this is a "wider society" problem, rather than an individual one. Her type of porn, should be specialist and specialist porn shouldn't be so easily available. Does any 18-21 year old fully understand how their actions, could impact on society? Also, bad parenting, is a societal problem, as are the attitudes towards women who like sex and seeing men as victim's of their sex drives. That's a lot for a teen, such as SG to take responsibility for.

BinksToEnlightenment Wed 08-May-13 10:26:33

I'm wary of continuing this debate after the unnecessary and upsetting insult, but I would like to say that I disagree with the viewpoint that this kind of sex is inherently wrong. There is far more porn which is perfectly ordinary and 'vanilla' as they say. It's just that the internet is a huge place and of course you can find a reflection of practically every taste. Leaving aside the issue of minors being influenced, I genuinely don't see why you can't accept and allow that this is not solely a male interest. Women enjoy it and I don't see what's so right on about telling them they shouldn't. They have the right to pursue their own private sexual interests without their bodies being used as a messaging board. My body is mine, as is Sasha Grey's. It's not a medium through which responsibility for every other person must be guarded.

OhHullitsOnlyMeYoni Wed 08-May-13 10:26:35

We need to get back to the idea that it is faintly ridiculous - men who used porn 15yrs ago were literally Wankers. It was sad in a vaguely humorous way. Now it is so mainstream it shouldn't be seen as 'real' suddenly. We need to make sure we keep it 'unreal' for the kids and let them know it is pretty silly really. (Without trying to demoralise the horrid things I have seen about porn stars being rugged/coerced, but we don't need to go into that until kids are ready, if at all)

OhHullitsOnlyMeYoni Wed 08-May-13 10:29:59

Binks - trouble is this IS entwined with minors as it is in Elle being advertised. People aren't saying it is wrong, just wrong for it to be in Elle.

OhHullitsOnlyMeYoni Wed 08-May-13 10:31:37

Oh and 'rugged' was meant to be drugged.

Binks
You have pretty much argued against a strawman throughout this whole thread. I don't think anyone is saying that there aren't women who enjoy degrading violent sex. Nor is anyone saying that sasha grey didn't consent freely to participating in those films. (At least if they are that's not the point)
The argument is, can she be a feminist if she makes a) porn and b) violent, degrading porn? IMO the answer is clearly no, because this type of porn actively harms women and also men, on a societal and also an individual level. I wish so hard that this kind of thing wasn't freely available online but it is. It took me one quick google to access films for free that showed her being triply penetrated and being choked and vomiting on a penis. If extreme porn was made for the consumption of a small group of adult enthusiasts and nobody could stumble upon it then it might be a different issue. But that isn't how the world is. Actions have consequences and effects and whether sasha grey gives a fuck about it or not (and if she were a feminist she would) her pornography effects women negatively.

NiceTabard Wed 08-May-13 10:42:11

I don't think you can leave aside the problem of minors being influenced. That is the main problem that many people have with this whole issue.

I would like to point out, again that SG retired from being a Porn Star, two years ago, at the ripe old age of 21. Since retiring she could well have become a Feminist, but there are many branches of Feminism and whilst working as a Porn Star could have still fitted in with some of the definitions.

affects blush

PaleHousewifeOfCumbriaCounty Wed 08-May-13 10:55:09

Well this has been enlightening.... I even googled ms grey. It was pretty sad. Then i felt even sadder when i eed that her porn career finished at 21... Who thr fuck knows their arse from their elbowvat 21? Yet she made all these decisions and chouces and they will forever define her. I did have one thought though - maybe her feminist thing is a bit of a defence mechanism?

BinksToEnlightenment Wed 08-May-13 10:55:25

But how does it harm women? Not minors because that issue concerns all porn, and not just porn but the internet, and not just the internet but all unsuitable things young people are able to access that they shouldn't.

Why do you think that women should not engage in these activities? Sure, it's the extreme end of a spectrum but it's a long road between this and normal lovely sex. It seems to me that you are saying there's a line at which women should not disrespect themselves. That there is only so far they can fit a dick in their mouth before they're shamed out of the sisterhood.

It comes across as slut shaming to me and I don't agree with it.

I disagree that "15 years ago porn was for sad wankers", I am in my 40's, 20 years ago porn was much more couple orientated and there was good quality porn (of all types) about. I think it was the availability of cheap travel that first exploded the sex industry, people were visiting places should as Amsterdam and Thailand etc. Then the internet happened.

NiceTabard Wed 08-May-13 11:02:25

Female minors grow up to become women.

if someone has been harmed in some way it doesn't magically disappear when they turn 16/18.

As for teh rest - there are books around you could read if you want to understand why teh objectification of women is detrimental to women and girls as a group.

I can see the point about the coverage in Elle, but every Newspaper covered her latest book, in their relevant section, even the Telegraph. If her porn career had not been mentioned, she would be accused of re-writing her past, it's a lose-lose situation, which is a Feminist issue, as is the treatment of women who have been in the sex industry.

PaleHousewifeOfCumbriaCounty Wed 08-May-13 11:22:16

Whether anyone likes it or not, the modern porn industry is creating a sexual blueprint for young people. Men expect the acts they see depicted, and women are expected to act a certain way. Just ask any 14/15 year old. Boys dont want a snog and a feel over their bra...
I hate the 'oh but i enjoyed making these films, im a feminist and its my body' line. Its trotted out in a way that jarrs a little; i dont have to accept any reponsibilty because its what i wanted, and even if i didnt really want it, nobody would guess, of course. Cos imma feminist, innit....

As a society and as parents we should not be allowing the Porn industry to influence a young persons sex life, just as I have not allowed the "stick thin blonde" beauty industry to destroy my DD's self worth. I agree with many points, but I don't think that a woman's behaviour or bad choices between the ages of 18-21 should mean that she can never be described as a Feminist. If you have positive influences, you make good, informed choices, during your growing up stage, we should not write off all those who haven't had that influence, or label them, as I see young women labelled and becoming self full-filling prophecies.

The porn industry shouldn't cease to exist, in all its forms, just because youngsters can find away to access it, that argument could be put forward for horror etc. Being open about sex, relationships and not being in an abusive relationship, which many women still bring their children up in, would make a bigger impact on society than extreme porn not existing, would.

flatpackhamster Wed 08-May-13 11:44:14

Birdsgottafly

As a society and as parents we should not be allowing the Porn industry to influence a young persons sex life, just as I have not allowed the "stick thin blonde" beauty industry to destroy my DD's self worth.

So who ought to be 'influencing' a young person's sex life? And how do you plan to get young people to listen to these great thinkers?

NiceTabard Wed 08-May-13 11:50:33

But what happens to the children who don't have parents carefully counterbalancing negative messages they get
And what happens to the ones who's parents best efforts can't overcome what they are hearing from the media

It's all a bit I'm alright Jack for my tastes.

NiceTabard Wed 08-May-13 11:52:28

and as flatpackhamster says

teens are keen to experiment with sex. very keen indeed. that combined with being given the knowledge that used to come with years of sexual experience right at the very beginning is just not good

Binks
I don't think women 'shouldn't engage in these activities' in private or whatever. I do think that normalising extreme sex through mainstream porn harms women. Because many men and women both internalise these depictions of sex and normalise them. It warps a person's sexual development because it normalises things that are not 'normal' (normative) and leads to situations where women are pressured into performing acts that do them harm.

I understand that you feel defensive because you enjoy this sort of sex. But this thread isn't about attacking the choice to partake in extreme sex, it's about whether making extreme violent porn can be compatible with being a feminist, because of the alleged damage which such porn does to women.

flatpackhamster Wed 08-May-13 12:11:40

EhricLovesTeamQhuay

I don't think women 'shouldn't engage in these activities' in private or whatever. I do think that normalising extreme sex through mainstream porn harms women. Because many men and women both internalise these depictions of sex and normalise them. It warps a person's sexual development because it normalises things that are not 'normal' (normative) and leads to situations where women are pressured into performing acts that do them harm.

What's normal? I think you're on pretty thin ice with that argument. Is lesbian sex 'normal', or gay sex, and who says so? Is violent sex 'extreme', and who judges? Since when did the sisterhood become so expert at deciding what harms and what doesn't?

I used 'normal' in quotation marks and (normative) in brackets to explain what I meant by normal. Normative means the majority or standard behaviour. Lesbian sex and gay sex are not normative, as they are practiced by a minority. That does not mean they are not normal types of sex. Violent sex is certainly extreme IMO, I think that is covered by the definition of extreme sex. Sex which involves bdsm, pain, violence, non consent, urination and defecation, etc etc. they are extreme and non normative sexual practices/kinks. Note that I'm not denying that there exist both men and women who genuinely enjoy them.

My argument is simple, that normalising violent sex harms women, because it leads to situations where women, particularly those who are vulnerable due to age, emotional development or economics, are being pressured into allowing or performing these extreme acts without free and genuine consent. I would be surprised if you disagreed that that happens. You only need to nosy on the relationships board to read hundreds of accounts of women in relationships with extreme porn users who are being choked, raped, violated and coerced into sex acts that they don't want.

it is your job as a parent to give your child a feeling of self worth and respect for others, couple that with a message of equality and you teach your children to set their own boundaries. That then extends into how they conduct all of their relationships. I refer women who have been victims of DV to support groups and their clear message is that women don't have to be victims. Porn is available, openness will help to stop it being used against anyone's will or misused.

Sure, I can try to do that for my own child, but not every parent can or will do that. That's a cop out.

flatpackhamster Wed 08-May-13 12:28:28

You seem to be making two curious arguments. The first is that merely depicting violent sex in porn normalises it - I would also be inclined to wonder what on earth makes you think the current sexual status quo is in any way 'normal' or (normative). The second is the attempt to imply that the porn is a consequence of the violence within the relationship. It is symptomatic, IMO, and indicative of a particular mindset.

1) depicting violent sex in porn normalises it - yes, I believe it does. When such porn is considered mainstream and is easily accessible it ceases to be a niche product and becomes mainstream.
2) porn is a consequence of the violence within the relationship - did you mean to put it that way round? Violence as a result of porn, yes. Not always, not entirely, but a contributory factor.

BinksToEnlightenment Wed 08-May-13 12:47:36

It isn't normal as in it is uncommon. But that doesn't make it wrong. Any more than gay sex or eating a banana and chili sandwich is wrong. Bondage (and the like) isn't illegal. You may say it's potentially harmful, but so is gay sex or a disgusting sandwich.

HerrenaHarridan Wed 08-May-13 12:50:34

Ffs pull you judegy pants out of you nostrils, has it ever occurred to you "other women are only feminists if they agree with me" types, that some people actually enjoy sex that's on the brutal side.

Not every woman wants to be treated like a precious princess.

Who the fuck are you to tell people how to enjoy sex?
You seriously think you judge a feminist by how far she deep throats?!?

Personally I wouldn't stick a cock in my mouth it's strictly cunt only round here, ergo, I'm a better feminist than you hmm

PaleHousewifeOfCumbriaCounty Wed 08-May-13 12:54:07

Surely is more a case of avoiding answering the bigger questions by using the flimsy excuse of 'i can do what i want because im a feminist'?

Katiekitty Wed 08-May-13 13:06:45

Henreena - what do you mean by "Not every woman wants to be treated like a precious princess."?

It's the 'precious princess' bit I don't get.

NiceTabard Wed 08-May-13 13:07:08

But surely engaging in these sex acts should be restricted to people who actually genuinely really want to do it?

Not because they're very young and it's what their boyfriend has seen and wants to try out?

Isn't it better if people find out what their sexualities are by exploring over time, rather than having more extreme practices presented as just what goes on to people who are just starting to work out what their own sexualities and sexual preferences are? We know that viewing stuff impacts on people - it is a recognised part of grooming for example. If it was harmless then that wouldn't be flagged up, would it.

NiceTabard Wed 08-May-13 13:08:20

I wonder what impact the mainstreaming of violent porn has had on women and children who work in the sex industry as well. I don't know if there have been any studies on that.

NiceTabard Wed 08-May-13 13:09:00

Sorry didn't put that right.
I mean women and children who work in prostitution, specifically.

Yawn
I don't give a flying fuck where you like to put what. That's not the bloody point! How are you all not understanding?
I've said eleventy billion times on here that I acknowledge that the are women who enjoy this type of sex. Enjoying extreme sex doesn't prevent you from being a feminist. Making violent porn that impacts on women indirectly through normalising violent sex and leading to coercive behaviour prevents you from being a feminist.

O Kay, so every day we read about sexual assault and abuse of women often by "prolific porn users", we know that young women are under masses of sexual pressure, (nspcc reports etc) we know that 2 women a week are murdered by their partners, yet what we need and what we demand is more young women to be exalted in a high street magazine for young girls because they have built a career on extremely violent sex. Riiighttt

AnyFucker Germany Wed 08-May-13 13:27:05

Ehric, give it up love

Some women are prepared to defend their own sex lives so comprehensively they don't see the wood for the trees. Introduce any question into it and the hackles rise....ask for consideration of any wider societal influences on the early normalisation of violent sex, and you get accused of limiting women's choices

Not their Nigel, oh no, he's a lovely man. Nothing like all those horrid punters, because after he's roughed me up we have a nice cuppa and a Garibaldi. Oh, and aren't I edgy, not like you other bores.

It's cognitive dissonance at it's most basic, and a waste of time to attempt to puncture it

grinsadconfusedhmm

AnyFucker Germany Wed 08-May-13 13:49:09

Just looking out for your blood pressure wink

BinksToEnlightenment Wed 08-May-13 14:01:36

Are you permanently rude, AF? Or have you saved all the rage in your life just for me?

McBalls Wed 08-May-13 14:03:27

Blinks, it's not all about you sad

Grinkly Wed 08-May-13 14:09:50

But it's the unbalancement of it all imo.

Ok, so she wants to be seen acting as if she is enjoying gagging on cock. Fine if it was that simple. But she is making a living and probably being paid a lot of money to be seen enjoying gagging on cock. That's the bit that is missing from the information.

Also, as can be seen here, try to make the point that in no way would you enjoy gagging on cock and you are lambasted for criticising another's choice and implications that you don't know what you are missing.

So for every porn pic showing a woman gagging on a cock there should be one showing other choices and the more normal one, imv, that gagging on cock is bluddy horrible.

AnyFucker Germany Wed 08-May-13 14:11:06

This is my point, McBalls. The individual women's sex lives on this thread are fuck all to do with the point in hand

Grinkly Wed 08-May-13 14:11:38

Oh, and my main point was going to be write to Elle and tell them that you are not buying the mag, that's the only thing that matters to them, sales.

WilsonFrickett Wed 08-May-13 14:12:59

I think someone upthread mentioned earnings of £200,000 grinkly Would be very interested to know how much other people men made out of her films...

AnyFucker Germany Wed 08-May-13 14:15:56

Does anyone know why Sasha gave up such a lucrative, fun-filled, empowering career as choking on cocks at such a tender age? I imagine she might have had at least a few more years out if it, if she so wished.

BinksToEnlightenment Wed 08-May-13 14:17:20

That's exactly right, AF. It's not all about me, so you can quit the personal remarks.

PaleHousewifeOfCumbriaCounty Wed 08-May-13 14:19:13

There's a documentary on Netflix at the moment about life after porn. Makes some very interesting comments about the longevity of female porn careers vs men's porn careers. Ill allow you to entire a guess which group is over and done in (on average) two years...

Grinkly Wed 08-May-13 14:19:19

Yes, Anyfucker , will keep it in mind for the next thread where someone says they are looking for a career move, it is obviously very well paid and fulfilling.

mrsshackleton Wed 08-May-13 14:19:32

Agree with every word Erich says

And think it is an absolute disgrace that a magazine like Elle should promulgate the myth that you can be a porn star and a feminist. Or feature a glorified porn star at all.

Shame on them.

AnyFucker Germany Wed 08-May-13 14:19:56

Quit telling us about your sex life, and we are even wink

AnyFucker Germany Wed 08-May-13 14:21:04

pale I wonder why that might be < hmm >

Don't answer that.

PaleHousewifeOfCumbriaCounty Wed 08-May-13 14:23:33

I expect after two years of fulfilling and empowering anal ones arse resembles a slipper chewed by a jack Russell.

AnyFucker Germany Wed 08-May-13 14:25:33

indeed sad

I believe the men don't fare too well, either, tbh

Grinkly Wed 08-May-13 14:27:54

Pale dare I mention faecal seepage --- no that's tmi.

PaleHousewifeOfCumbriaCounty Wed 08-May-13 14:30:20

Seeeeeeeeeepage dahling!

mrsshackleton Wed 08-May-13 14:32:41

Those of you on Twitter I suggest you Tweet @lorraineElle, Elle's editor and ask for her explanation for this interpretation.

BinksToEnlightenment Wed 08-May-13 14:35:47

I believe my last post was about shitty sandwich combinations, but I'll bear your uncalled for advice in mind.

And never attempt a reasoned discussion with you again because it's clearly beyond you. Heaven forbid we can't all be converted to your particular viewpoint by aggression alone. I guess you really don't have to act like a lady to be a feminist, huh?

AnyFucker Germany Wed 08-May-13 14:38:03

< crosses Binks off the Xmas card list >

limitedperiodonly Wed 08-May-13 14:44:38

Does anyone know why Sasha gave up such a lucrative, fun-filled, empowering career as choking on cocks at such a tender age?

It's not really a laughing matter af but this did make me smile.

Yes, it's a mystery, isn't it?

AnyFucker Germany Wed 08-May-13 14:47:26

I wasn't laughing either, LPO. It was a genuine question. I could google the answer I suppose, but I feel disinclined to today, tbh.

flatpackhamster Wed 08-May-13 14:53:35

EhricLovesTeamQhuay

1) depicting violent sex in porn normalises it - yes, I believe it does. When such porn is considered mainstream and is easily accessible it ceases to be a niche product and becomes mainstream.

That's your point of view, of course. You didn't explain why you thought current sexual mores were 'normal' and what brought you to that conclusion.

2) porn is a consequence of the violence within the relationship - did you mean to put it that way round? Violence as a result of porn, yes. Not always, not entirely, but a contributory factor.

Absolutely, yes. I meant 'symptom' as much as consequence. I don't think that the porn causes the violence, I think the violence is already inherent in the individual and that they find that kind of porn appealing because that's the kind of person they are. I don't see the violence occuring because the person has watched porn, in the same way that I don't think that kids in America shoot their classmates because they watched Shooty Death Gun IV.

grimbletart Wed 08-May-13 14:55:48

A feminist is someone who advocates equality of the sexes.

A masochist is someone who enjoys pain/humiliation, particularly sexual.

Sasha Grey is a masochist.

How is it possible for a masochist to be a feminist?

ecclesvet Wed 08-May-13 15:03:39

Why are they mutually exclusive? Surely one could still personally enjoy pain/humiliation, but still advocate equality of the sexes?

BinksToEnlightenment Wed 08-May-13 15:04:23

So if anyone enjoys an act which is potentially contrary to their good health, they are not a feminist?

flatpackhamster Wed 08-May-13 15:05:07

ecclesvet

Why are they mutually exclusive? Surely one could still personally enjoy pain/humiliation, but still advocate equality of the sexes?

^
This.

grimbletart Wed 08-May-13 15:06:28

How?

BinksToEnlightenment Wed 08-May-13 15:09:29

Am I misanthropic if I go sky diving?

grimbletart Wed 08-May-13 15:21:56

You might be - who knows if you are a misanthrope - but I'm not sure what misanthropy has to do with masochism.

BinksToEnlightenment Wed 08-May-13 15:32:35

I'm not sure what feminism has to do with masochism.

grimbletart Wed 08-May-13 15:59:56

No Binks it's obvious you don't as you have a total inability to comprehend how enjoying being painfully humiliated by a man (as in "rip my fucking holes open) is somewhat at odds with a belief in the intrinsic self-worth that leads women to be feminists.

Any woman can call herself a feminist - doesn't mean she is one.

I'll leave it at that because no one is able to answer my question "how", with a logical and rational response, preferring instead to give a rhetorical answer or a nonsensical response conflating/confusing? misanthropy and masochism; and TBH, this thread is making me feel a little bit sick.

Sometimes women are our own worst enemies.

Sparklyboots Wed 08-May-13 16:50:00

Again, we have a problem of mistaking one thing for another - masochism is a separate question from the concern over what we publicly agree are standard models of sexual relationship. The problem is not whether or not you or indeed SG are masochists. The problem is the product that SG sells is ideologically inscribed with the equation that female sexuality is masochistic; and the suggestion that male sexual identity is realised through inflicting pain on sexual 'partners'.

Again, if this was another kind of cultural product, and the characters being played were not enacting their sado-masochism inside of a sexual relationship, we would expect that that aspect of their relationship should be explained and commented upon. The lack of explanation or comment in pornographic products presents those relationships as straightforward, unproblematic, natural reproductions of normative relationships. It is in this sense that pornographic products that are so inscribed that they become damaging; their ideology is (1) unexamined (2) in this case counterthetical to feminist discourses of the agency, physical sanctity and equality of women in sexual relationships and (3) actively productive of a discourse of damage to women as part of 'normal' - as in normative, publicly agreed standards of behaviour - for sexual relationships.

No aspect of this objection suggests that (a) feminists can't practice deep throat oral sex in their private relationships (b) feminists can't be personally involved in masochistic or dangerous practices of any sort (c) feminists give a flying fuck what you do in your own time to your own body inside your own sexual relationship. What it does suggest is that feminism as a discourse has an objection to the view that sex as a practice should be physically damaging to women inside normative models of male/female sexual relationships, because it then makes the requirement that women as a class accept actual physical harm from men as a class or else they be considered deviant. I'd rather we had it the other way round; that women are not expected to accept actual physical harm as part of their role in sexual relationships but are free to choose it should they want to. Not only is it the embodiment of what I want from male/female relationships outside of sexual relationships from an ethical point of view, but it is more practical. The other model - in which women have to argue for their own freedom from damage or opt out of 'aggressive sex' is complicated in the case that that model encourages the male partner to view their job 'to dominate'; thereby making female resistance part of the exchange, rather than a representation of her right to dissent.

Short version: do what you like, but we should agree in the public sphere to opt into, rather than opt out of masochistic or degrading sexual practices. SG actively promotes a model counter to this and as such can't be considered 'feminist'.

<applauds>

KinkyDorito Wed 08-May-13 17:45:50

Being my usual fence-sitting self, I decided to do some reading and thought this might be of interest to others:

gaildines.com/2009/09/so-you-think-you-know-what-porn-is/

AnyFucker Germany Wed 08-May-13 18:03:23

Everybody who supports violent porn should read that. This is the reality of what you are saying is ok (just a finacial transaction, after all), from your provincial lounges with your naice curtains and your naice Nigels.

cocolepew United States Wed 08-May-13 18:12:11

Reading that article makes me think that male porn 'actors' must really hate women.
Who could possibly do those sort of things to a body, while maintaining an erection?

Smudging Wed 08-May-13 18:18:19

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AnyFucker Germany Wed 08-May-13 18:19:52

coco, there is a huge industry around just keeping men's erection during the filming of porn

people employed to keep it stimulated imbetween "takes", drugs, poppers, injections...there is a long list

I feel sorry for the men too, tbh

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 08-May-13 18:21:55

Thanks for the link, Kinky

<feels sick>

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 08-May-13 18:23:10

Thanks for the link, Kinky

<feels sick>

AnyFucker Germany Wed 08-May-13 18:27:51

Pro-porn lobbyists don't like Gail Dines very much

just as it should be

KinkyDorito Wed 08-May-13 18:34:46

I was going in from an ignorant's perspective, as I don't know much about her or the subject. I found it very interesting in light of what I've read on here today. It was difficult reading - should have possibly put a disclaimer, so apologies if it's upset anyone.

KinkyDorito Wed 08-May-13 18:43:10

My main reaction is one of complete sadness. I see and hear how teenage boys are treating girls every day. I hear what girls are willing to do, as it is 'expected' of them. I worry for the boys too and the expectations upon them. It scares me for my now 4 year old DS - what will it be like when he's 14? I feel grateful my 14 year old DD is Aspie, so not involved in mainstream teen life at all. lPorn culture is saturating our young people and as it becomes more violent and disrespectful, so do their attitudes towards each other within their relationships.

I remember the good old days when it was controversial to give a blow job. grin

AnyFucker Germany Wed 08-May-13 18:46:32

No need for a disclaimer. Some people need their complacency challenging.

flatpackhamster Wed 08-May-13 18:49:13

KinkyDorito

Being my usual fence-sitting self, I decided to do some reading and thought this might be of interest to others:

That's an amazing piece of fence-sitting there. Sitting right on the fence, while posting an article from someone who describes herself as 'the world's leading anti-pornography campaigner'.

limitedperiodonly Wed 08-May-13 18:50:49

'Porn is more like making hate'

I'm not even half way through

AnyFucker Germany Wed 08-May-13 18:52:36

You have no comment on the article itself, hamster ?

AnyFucker Germany Wed 08-May-13 18:53:48

I commend KD on her "fence sitting" while she did soem research of her own

More of the posters on this thread should follow her lead. Quoting your own sex life is not "research" btw.

KinkyDorito Wed 08-May-13 18:54:17

I said I was sitting on the fence until I read more about it... I read more about it, then posted. smile

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 08-May-13 18:54:46

Her point about ATM was a good one - lots of women enjoy both of those acts and so liking to watch them makes some kind of sense, it's possible you could do so believing that all involved were enjoying it.

But the ATM aspect adds nothing to the visual, it's just taking delight in the additional health risk to the woman. It's like watching a Russian roulette game with one dirty needle or something,

IneedAsockamnesty Wed 08-May-13 19:01:52

Isant Elle's target reader age group 18-49? So not aimed at minors.

AnyFucker Germany Wed 08-May-13 19:04:29

Miley Cyrus on the cover isn't targeting 18-49 years is it ? Look here

woozlebear Wed 08-May-13 19:06:07

Ok, so the discussion has moved on a lot, but I've only just found this thread (and waded through all 13 pages of it!), and really wanted to respond to this specific point:

what is you think will happen as a result of these people being encouraged to have violent sex in their leisure time?

In some cases, nothing much - they'll just end up having consensual violent sex in their leisure time. But in other cases, men might be given a skewed idea of what it is reasonable/normal to expect of women. In turn this might lead some of them to pressure their partners into acts they do not want to do (particularly awful the younger and less experienced and confident his partner is). In extreme cases, this might produce a mindset where a man rapes a woman either because he sees it as the only way of getting what he, due to his warped perception of reality, feels 'entitled' to, or because in this warped perception the act of rape itself has become normalised.

As someome who has been raped by a partner, this kind of bothers me. And indeed, it bothered me before that happened to me.

BinksToEnlightenment Wed 08-May-13 19:10:14

If I may take a leaf out of your book and be horribly impolite, AF - leave me the fuck alone now. Do you think you can manage that?

AnyFucker Germany Wed 08-May-13 19:12:06

Binks, like several people have said now, it's not about you.

BinksToEnlightenment Wed 08-May-13 19:14:30

So stop making references to me. It's getting tedious now.

We don't agree with each other. Deal with it, please.

IneedAsockamnesty Wed 08-May-13 19:15:16

Is she not just doing the bloody hell I'm a grown up now not a child star lets have a grown up make over and do a photo shoot just like what's her face from Harry potter did.

My understanding of Elle is its mainly subscription buyers (more likely to be over 19) and its average reader age is about 34 ish the advertising and fashion stuff in it tend to be aimed at people with more accesable income so not your average teenager.
Its layout tends to be not like mags like sugar ( shocking mag aimed at teenagers) and much more like a grown up one.

PaleHousewifeOfCumbriaCounty Wed 08-May-13 19:16:01

Excellent link, kinky.

flippinada Wed 08-May-13 19:17:08

That article by Gail Dines is harrowing.

I don't know how anyone could read that and then go yeah, this stuff is fine.

It's like reading a description of torture..well, I suppose that's what it is, isn't it? Horrible.

AnyFucker Germany Wed 08-May-13 19:18:42

Binks, you are not the only one to reference your deliciously nasty-but-safe sex life with Nigel as an argument to support the depiction of violent sex acts in porn on this thread. You certainly have had your share of supporters here.

What would be weird is if your partner really was called Nigel.

PaleHousewifeOfCumbriaCounty Wed 08-May-13 19:20:05

Naughty Nigel?

AnyFucker Germany Wed 08-May-13 19:21:49

I am sure Binks's Nigel is a very nice man. This is my point.

BinksToEnlightenment Wed 08-May-13 19:24:54

I'm not even in a relationship, if you're that desperate to know. The only thing I'm hoping to put to bed tonight is your constant sniping.

AnyFucker Germany Wed 08-May-13 19:26:02

Do you know any men called Nigel ? <hopeful >

FlightyAphrodite Wed 08-May-13 19:27:07

Someone questioned what will happen to people who have violent sex, what could possibly be so damaging.

OK, as a teenager I had an older boyfriend. He was very sexually inexperienced, but watched a whole ton of porn, read men's magazines (you know the ones that portray a fantasy world where "normal" couples have threesomes, anal, violent sex all the time), and therefore he thought it WAS normal. The first time we ever had sex he spanked me. I gave no impression that I wanted him to do that, but I was so confused and blinded by adoration of this man, that I didn't challenge it. We were together for five years. In that time he continued to watch extreme porn, especially the amateur stuff, and introduce practices from it into our sex life. He tried to choke me, ejaculated on my face, wanted to film us, tried to arrange a threesome with a random girl he met online. If I told him I didn't want to do something he sneered at me, told me I was boring, frigid. He GENUINELY thought that this kind of sex was normal, that "vanilla" sex was boring and hardly anybody did it like that. It was routine sexual abuse, as a direct result of extreme porn being normalised, and easily available.
It ruined my view of sex, I was afraid after being with him. Afraid that men would be able to "tell" I had done these things and would expect me to do them again, afraid that I was permanently damaged. Afraid that sex would never be enjoyable for me, because the type of sex that I enjoyed was "boring" and "weird" for men. It took months with my now DP for me to relax, to know he wouldn't do things like that, that it didn't have to hurt.

Slightly OT from the original topic,but I very much doubt I am the only person with these type of experiences.

flatpackhamster Wed 08-May-13 19:28:16

AnyFucker

You have no comment on the article itself, hamster ?

I thought I might take a leaf out of your book and snipe at the author instead. Sisterhood, innit?

AnyFucker Germany Wed 08-May-13 19:29:15

Sorry you had those experiences, FA. I also doubt you are alone, and sadly I think more and more teenage girls are going to learn these lessons the hard way too sad

AnyFucker Germany Wed 08-May-13 19:30:59

I am sure your post must have crossed with FA's, FPH.

No-one is that massively insensitive.

FloraFox Wed 08-May-13 19:31:31

Thank you for sharing that Flighty. I don't think it's OT at all, quite the opposite. sad

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 08-May-13 19:41:09

sad for you, FA.

limitedperiodonly Wed 08-May-13 19:48:27

Your viewpoint is very interesting flatpack.

I welcome your contributions to this thread.

flatpackhamster Wed 08-May-13 20:04:49

AnyFucker

I am sure your post must have crossed with FA's, FPH.

A casual inspection of the times of our posts would confirm that to any observer.

No-one is that massively insensitive.

How interesting that you choose to distract from your casual bullying of Binks by sniping at me. Perhaps we should talk more about your strong sense of community that all women have and the bonding that feminism brings.

limitedperiodonly

Your viewpoint is very interesting flatpack.

I welcome your contributions to this thread.

And I yours - whatever they are. Which of my half-dozen posts earlier in the day did you welcome the most?

limitedperiodonly Wed 08-May-13 20:10:41

I couldn't put a cigarette paper between any of them flatpack.

They were really, really good.

BreasticlesNTesticles Wed 08-May-13 20:13:07

Flighty sad

I had a friend who was routinely beaten up, sexually abused, raped by her much older boyfriend. He had an obsession with porn surprisingly.

SG can be a feminist, if course she can. People can be many things over the course of their lifetimes and it may be she no longer sees her career in the way she once did.

She was little more than a child when she started it if she was 18.

I think it is interesting how may people have said it is okay becase it is her choice, I doubt it is completely though. I would be amazed if she has come from a secure background, it is likely there has been abuse in her past which is why she thinks this is a good way to earn money. Because she isn't worth anything more than this.

That is not the same as memaking a determined career choice or deciding that I want a certain type of sex. This is a damaged individual with a skewed view on human relationships.

Of course I don't know that for certain but 60% of sex workers have suffered from childhood abuse. That doesn't include domestic violence, drug abuse, alcohol abuse, so that poor woman is probably a very damaged soul.

But, yeah, she chose her path so that's all okay.

FlightyAphrodite Wed 08-May-13 20:21:15

The choice thing in itself is certainly controversial. Can it still truly be "her choice" if she "chooses" to do it, even though she doesn't enjoy it, to please someone else? Because she has been led to believe it is universally more appealing? I lost count of the times my loving, patient, sensitive DP had to say to me "you don't have to do that if you don't want to", and I would realise I didn't want to, I was just doing what I had "learned". It's sickening really.

Scarletohello Wed 08-May-13 20:29:56

Ok I would like to propose that we write a letter to Elle magazine raising our objections to this article, ie that it is normalizing sexual violence against women. Anyone like to volunteer? Some of you have articulated your objections much more eloquently than I could have done....

AnyFucker Germany Wed 08-May-13 20:32:05

you can email here

PaleHousewifeOfCumbriaCounty Wed 08-May-13 20:47:06

Do you think elle actually have any idea of the nature of pornography that ms grey made? Will their research even extend so far as to see what she committed to film?

SigmundFraude Wed 08-May-13 21:38:41

How can you regulate porn? Who decides what is acceptable or what isn't? I have watched porn, it was OK, pretty tame (vanilla?).

I read the Gail Dines link and googled some images, it wasn't pleasant. I don't want my DS's to see it at any stage in their life really, let alone as adolescents.

No easy answer is there? I don't think Sasha Grey should be in Elle magazine, although I very much doubt there are many girls who would want to emulate her. Or are there? I don't know.

BinksToEnlightenment Wed 08-May-13 21:44:46

Has everyone actually read this article? Elle aren't exactly honking her horn.

Sparklyboots Wed 08-May-13 21:50:15

I'm not sure anyone on this thread is asking to regulate porn; rather that we don't label someone involved in the production of material promoting violence toward women, and the degradation of women as a 'feminist' in the national press.

What are they saying about her Binks?

SigmundFraude Wed 08-May-13 21:55:48

Right. Well I'm guessing she labelled herself as 'feminist'. What can you do? Maybe she thinks she is. Maybe she is.

cherryade8 Wed 08-May-13 21:56:00

Yanbu. It is sick. Is there an email address we can complain to?

AnyFucker Germany Wed 08-May-13 22:12:55

yes, cherry, look at my post at 20:32

BinksToEnlightenment Wed 08-May-13 22:19:57

The magazine is in the other room so this is not word for word, but they finish by saying that they aren't sure if she's trying to convince everyone else or herself that she's very much ok with her porn background. They also raise a lot of the concerns mentioned on this thread. She comes across as an interesting girl though, and I definitely agree with her that it is as much a female as male thing to have a predilection for that type of sex.

It's certainly nothing like the publicist prescribed hero worship of Miley Cyrus.

Darkesteyes Wed 08-May-13 22:32:13

I noticed that on the glass door of my local WH Smith today that they had put a poster up.
saying...

Free Benefit mascara only with
this months
ELLE.

So this promotion may increase sales.

Technotropic Wed 08-May-13 22:43:47

Just thought I'd wade in after reading all 15 pages.

For info part of the article can be found here

printdigest.wordpress.com/2013/05/08/sasha-grey-in-the-latest-issue-of-elle-the-best-read/

Out of interest I googled her and the Wiki page goes into a fair amount of detail and highlights that she sees herself as a 'sex-positive feminist' so is not really Elle that has classed her but SG herself. Seems pointless complaining to Elle when they are simply stating what she describes herself as.

To be honest I find it simply a POV whether people agree with the feminist slant or not. Given there are many strands of feminism then there is no correct answer, simply opinions. Some strands find porn ok whilst others don't. The strangest thing in my mind is that the op is ok with porn and admits to being turned on by it but not with porn she finds objectionable. So mild abuse is ok but not extreme abuse?

In any case she retired from porn 4 years ago. Does that exclude her from being a feminist now? If anything Elle are not correct as she's not a pornstar, not nowadays anyway.

Lazyjaney Wed 08-May-13 23:10:40

What Technotropic said, seems like for every Feminist there's another one telling them they're not.

Issue of whether kids should see this sort of porn is a different problem, goes in same category as violent movies etc etc to me, and I'd like to see a way of limiting it. I do t have a clue how to, however.

LastMangoInParis Wed 08-May-13 23:22:50

So Elle writers are saying 'modern feminism' is about women 'harnessing (their) sexuality to (their) advantage' and SG's its fiercest exponent.
Oh dear.

What a staggeringly bland article.

Thanks for the link, Techno. Has reminded me what a waste of paper Elle is.

Technotropic Wed 08-May-13 23:32:17

Here, have another smile

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasha_Grey

She actually sounds like a talented individual. She's currently acting, is writing a book, has modelled for a fashion designer, sings and also DJ's in clubs.

Sparklyboots Wed 08-May-13 23:40:38

I hate this bullshit about 'sex-positive' feminism. I am sex positive; I just don't see what the porn industry has to do with actual sex. And the few clips of SG I googled this afternoon had FA to do with performance art - they weren't framed, presented, structured or contextualised in any way that subverts or calls attention to the norms and values of the genre they are referring to - they were just of it. Calling it 'performance art' just demonstrates that her understanding of performance art is as vacuous and reactionary as her understanding of feminism, which she basically assumes is about her freedom to have whatever kind of sex she likes.

LaLaGabby Wed 08-May-13 23:42:50

The problem with the Gail Dines article is right there in the first paragraph:
mainstream Internet porn – called gonzo by the industry

She claims that gonzo is mainstream porn, but it isn't. It is an extreme. Of course, the people making gonzo would also love for you to think that this is 'normal' porn and what everyone wants to watch.

I use porn, usually from the Internet, on a weekly basis and have literally never seen any of the acts in her list of bullet points, except maybe 'gagging'. Not saying it doesn't exist, but she is denying the reality of the majority of porn makers and users who are interested in many many more varied and in almost all cases less brutal fantasies.

Technotropic Wed 08-May-13 23:56:55

Sparklyboots

You say that SG has a poor understanding of feminism but sex-positive feminism is exactly what she understands it to be. You may not like it or agree but this strand of feminism has actively fought against the anti-porn feminists and is generally pro BDSM.

I don't know if you're a feminist but if so it simply highlights the many differences of opinion that exist.

Sparklyboots Thu 09-May-13 00:21:03

Well, I think it reactionary to assume feminism is about women's personal choices and the notion that feminism is primarily what one understands it to be is an extension of this. There are many differences of opinion in feminist thought; but in critical theory 'right to chose' politics primarily is a (neo)liberal position which co-opts the label of 'feminism' in order to underpin what is fundamentally a discourse of individuality (rather than gender). I think I'm right in saying that feminist politics is irrefutably about women as a class and so any serious consideration would reveal that neo-liberal conceptions of the individual as the absolute frame of reference are actually incompatible with a politics of women as a class. So when neo-liberal individuals, who are women or are talking specifically about them, describe that discourse as feminist they are making an error. Feminism is about women as a class and therefore can't -in terms of logic and as a category - take an individual as the primary measure for what is 'feminist'. Therefore I refute the idea that SG's self-identification is a valid understanding of what feminism is, not because of my personal view of feminism, but because it categorically is incompatible with a politics of the individual.

LaLaGabby Thu 09-May-13 00:36:11

Technotropic, I actually think you are correct about this characterization of 'feminism', but you are arguing at cross purposes here.

As far as I can tell, no-one has said (apart from possibly some very silly people) that Sasha Grey is a feminist because she was a porn star (and starred in unpleasant/violent/whatever porn). What they are saying is that she might be a feminist even though she was a porn star.

On the other hand, some people are saying that she can't be a feminist because she was a porn star. This is what people are disagreeing with. Being a porn star does not make you a feminist, but it doesn't make you not a feminist, either.

libertarianj Thu 09-May-13 02:25:27

The problem with the Gail Dines article is right there in the first paragraph:
mainstream Internet porn – called gonzo by the industry

She claims that gonzo is mainstream porn, but it isn't. It is an extreme. Of course, the people making gonzo would also love for you to think that this is 'normal' porn and what everyone wants to watch.

I use porn, usually from the Internet, on a weekly basis and have literally never seen any of the acts in her list of bullet points, except maybe 'gagging'. Not saying it doesn't exist, but she is denying the reality of the majority of porn makers and users who are interested in many many more varied and in almost all cases less brutal fantasies.

Totally agree. I have to admit to finding some of Sasha's works to be pretty hard to stomach and definitely don't agree with this notion on here that this kind of porn is now the 'mainstream'. Check out the scene she did with Vanessa Monet which can be seen on most free streaming sites.shock I really doubt many persons would watch it and go 'hey that looks good let's go and re-enact it.' More likely they'd be grossed out, especially younger persons who watched it.
I would also give teenagers a lot more credit than some of the posters are giving them on here. I don't think it's fair to assume they are so gullible/ easily influenced by things they see on the internet. Why this massive assumption that all teenagers who have a free reign to the internet would default to the hardest, nastiest porn that's out there? Isn't this just Daily Mail style scaremongering?

Interesting to look at some very popular porn forums ( peachy and freeones) and to see what the most viewed themes/ fetishes are..... well it appears to be softcore ,amateurs and milfs.

now if we look at most popular models/porn stars it's again softcore which dominates the top ten lists eg Katie Fey, Kari Sweets, Anna Angel.

Finally talking of the Daily Mail, check this survey:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2292582/Most-popular-porn-site-search-terms-revealed-Americans-favour-MILF-Syrians-like-aunt.html

Technotropic Thu 09-May-13 08:47:22

Sparklyboots

I think you've misunderstood my post (or perhaps I was being unclear) but thanks for the analysis smile

SG, AFAIK, has labelled herself as a 'sex-positive feminist' as 'sex-positive feminism' is a strand of feminism in its own right, just like radical feminism, liberal feminism etc. etc. Feminsim is a collection of movements, one of which is a strand that SG identifies with. Unless the members of MN are on the board of high council of feminism then it is, IMHO, purely down to POV and where you lie (in terms of feminist belief).

I get what you're saying about class but self identification is part/parcel of agency. If you follow a particular movement then you will identify with it and subsequently label yourself. You didn't answer my question about whether you are a feminist or not but if you are then you will undoubtedly class yourself as being of a particular strand. Does this make your classification any less valid than SG's?

Technotropic Thu 09-May-13 08:53:40

LaLaGabby

TBH I wasn't arguing either way but simply highlighting the OP's position. I think you're right. Being a pornstar does not make you a feminist but if you identify with sex-positive feminism then it's ok to be a pornstar.

The OP is well within her rights to dissaprove but ultimately who is right? Who has the final say to decide which strand of feminism is right/wrong? It's like certain strands not recognising the trans community but others accepting it. Conflicts will always rage so the OP is not being unreasonable to have an opinion but should really understand that her views are NOT gospel and that many others believe differently.

HairyLittleCarrot Thu 09-May-13 20:35:04

I've been reading a lot about porn and feminism over the last few weeks and I'm still formulating my thoughts on the subject. However, I wonder if, as an analogy, one was to advocate for an industry which was
-Run and controlled by white people
- Where the subjects or commodities were almost exclusively black people
- and those subjects were frequently violently hurt and damaged and verbally abused and degraded.
-And where the object of the industry was that this was entertaining to watch
-and the consumers were overwhelmingly white
-the shareholders were white
-and this product was widely accessible, freely available and even mainstream
- And there was a prevailing mainstream view amongst white people as a population that it is ok to sell the degradation of black people as entertainment

Would it be acceptable?
Or enormously damaging to black people as a group? (and detrimental to white people for that matter)

What about if a number of black people defended their participation as voluntary and empowering and profitable and they enjoyed being hurt and degraded.
And if all the white participants, shareholders and consumers claimed they were not racist and believed in equality but they just enjoyed watching white people hurt black people. That its perfectly normal and since the black people involved were consenting adults it's ok.

Does that make an entire industry of white on black violence and degradation presented as mainstream adult entertainment acceptable?

Perhaps this is a dreadful analogy. I don't know.

It's just the whole porn industry seems abhorrent to me the more I learn, the more I think about it.

OhHullitsOnlyMeYoni Thu 09-May-13 20:54:49

Great post Hairycarrot smile

HairyLittleCarrot Thu 09-May-13 21:05:27

thanks. I'm braced for someone to tear that analogy to pieces though.

Sparklyboots Thu 09-May-13 21:06:04

Well, where other strands of feminists recognise each other as feminist with methodological disagreements, no feminist.politics with a concern about.women as a class can recognise the basic assumption that SG makes that sex positive feminism is about her right to promote (sexualised) violence against women as anything other than a neo-liberal appropriation of feminism as a term. Also, it was my understanding that sex positive feminists tend towards the creation of porn for female consumption, which centralised female sexual identity - SG' s 'work' comes straight out of male-identified porn and as such couldn't be considered by sex-positive fems as identified with or by their politics. Sex-positive feminism isn't simply about calling participating in pornography 'feminist'; it's about reclaiming sexuality as a territory in which female identity can have agency and tenure. I would also say that actual fems who are sex-positive are still primarily identified with radical/ cultural/ material etc. feminism but that they incorporate the notion of sex-positivism within that i.e. they don't think making female centric pornography is the sole aim of feminism or the only way that women experience social inequality. So, I still think she isn't a feminist, because her product and further work does not address those concerns. I still don't think she does understand what feminism is, and she certainly doesn't understand what performance art is.

I am a feminist, I wouldn't say I was faithfully radical or materialist though I would say I'm not a liberal feminist. Which is why I have no objection in refusing to accept self-identification as the primary category by which you can judge whether or not someone is a feminist; I am materialist enough to say I do not accept the absolute relativism that it's all about a point of view. If feminism is about anything it is about women as a class. Therefore anything that undermines that or is based upon an individualist politics can not be called feminism even if people like SG would like to use that term. Their insistence only reveals a basic failure to understand the difference between their personal concerns and the relationship of those concerns to women as a social class.

AnyFucker Germany Thu 09-May-13 21:25:03

hairy, it's a good analogy

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Thu 09-May-13 21:33:01

Great posts sparkling and hairy

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Thu 09-May-13 21:40:18

Sparkling and hairy, sounds like a vajazzle gone wrong!

IneedAsockamnesty Thu 09-May-13 21:44:24

Sparkling. Thanks for posting that I actually get what you mean from that explanation and understand it.

AnyFucker Germany Thu 09-May-13 21:54:13

we have a mini breakthrough here ? smile wink

PaleHousewifeOfCumbriaCounty Thu 09-May-13 22:17:17

Hells bells hairy, thats something to mull over. Well put.

FlightyAphrodite Thu 09-May-13 22:43:41

Bravo Hairy

Technotropic Thu 09-May-13 23:17:46

Sparklyboots

That's your interpretation of it and that's fine. This is another interpretation from another feminist and I think that's fine too. Whether you agree or rationalise against it is your choice but I would personally rather embrace the diversity.

www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/12/16/interview-with-a-sex-positive-feminist/

But to reiterate its a bit of a moot point given SG's porn career is well behind her. As none of us actually know her then it is nigh on impossible to argue against her feminist credibility today for something she was involved with 4 years ago.

limitedperiodonly Thu 09-May-13 23:20:55

Perhaps this is a dreadful analogy. I don't know.

No, it's not. I guess you knew it wasn't, but that's okay.

limitedperiodonly Thu 09-May-13 23:23:10

I meant smile

Sparklyboots Thu 09-May-13 23:37:39

Nothing that sex-positive feminist says disagrees with my view of sex-positive feminism, though; she refers to the central idea that sex-positive feminism is interested in pornography which is as sexually bold, but 'reflected our politics and values'. To reiterate, SGs 'work' does not reflect anything apart from male-identified, male-centred pornography. It does not 'reflect the politics and values' of feminists, who are also sex-positive.

The interviewee is also clear to describe her interest as defending women's rights to define their own sex lives (rather than being about the uncritical acceptance of all women choosing to make pornography as feminist). Her sex-positivity is about her private life and not about her right to make a product which promotes violence against women. She does talk about the problems that self-identifying as sexually masochistic has had for her as a feminist, but no part of her defence of her right to do so includes the promotion of female sexuality as inherently masochistic, as SG's work does, for reasons we've gone over up thread. Again, it is not possible to align this view with SG's work and claims to be feminist in this context.

She concludes by confirming that she chooses to be a feminist activist over sex-positivity because she has a particular affinity for it but that sex-positivity is an aspect rather than reason for her feminism, which rather reiterates the point that sex-positive fems are not about achieving absolute empowerment and liberation through sex; rather that the social inequalities that affect sexual relationships and their perception are the ones that they choose to campaign on as feminists. So sex positive is not really a strand of feminism in the way that liberal feminism is insofar as liberal feminism describes a total approach where as sex-positive describes a view on one aspect of female social identity.

HairyLittleCarrot Thu 09-May-13 23:41:11

I genuinely wasn't sure if the analogy was off or not. I'm still open to hearing debate or dissent around the subject and I'm still learning. I'm interested to hear what pro-porn people think of the subject if gender and race are interchanged but other principles remain the same, in particular the balance of power, and whether the rights of consenting participants outweigh the damage wreaked on the entire class as a whole.

libertarianj Thu 09-May-13 23:54:50

HairyLittleCarrot One question: does your analogy refer specifically to the extreme porn that Sasha Grey took part in? or was it intended to apply to ALL porn and softcore erotica?

Technotropic Fri 10-May-13 00:04:38

Hairy

I'd say that was a good analogy for YOU but not necessarily for ALL.

The industry isn't run exclusively by white people
The subjects are both black and white people
Consumers are also increasingly black

And these black people aren't necessarily damaged, brainwashed or into it to appease white people either.

FloraFox Fri 10-May-13 00:12:35

There's your answer Hairy - it's just denial.

Lazyjaney Fri 10-May-13 06:38:47

"There's your answer Hairy - it's just denial"

No, it's a refutation, as the reasons for disagreement are given.

Also, the argument that "the branch of feminism that I believe in doesnt think that other sort of feminist over there is a real feminist" is hardly a convincing argument either.

Seems to me the main lesson of this thread is just that those who are against porn are unwilling to accept that those who are for it can have valid opinions, in any area. Even if they no longer practice it.

Tecnotropic
The industry isn't run exclusively by white people - no, but the few black people on the 'ruling' side aren't out for the interests of black people. You will always have the 'uncle Tom' - the 'Margaret thatcher' - the member of the subjugated class who rises to power of some description and instead of using that power to help their class, oppress it.
The subjects are both black and white people - but black people and white people are treated extremely differently, with white people using physical and verbal degradation to humiliate and belittle the black players
Consumers are also increasingly black - people can participate in things that harm them, it's called cognitive dissonance.

It is still a good analogy, for everyone.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 10-May-13 07:12:50

Lazy, it's nothing to do with whether SG is still practicing - if she believes that violent porn is empowering for women, her beliefs are at odds with many many strands of feminism.

Technotropic Fri 10-May-13 08:25:37

Many strands of feminism maybe but not ALL strands.

Google 'sex-positive feminism' and it is possible to see many supporters of this strand and also people that engage with BDSM and/or porn (my previous link included). I'm not into violent sex and frankly find it a complete turn off but I am in no position to judge what many sex-positive feminists deem to be perfectly acceptable. If the women that classify themselves under this strand of feminism are pro BDSM (and in essence violent sex) then I think it a little inequitable to deny Sasha Grey her right to engage with a strand of feminism that she connects with. Unless that is, violent sex is ok, only as long as the producers are feminists.

Many feminists have the insight and analytical judgement that 99% of the population simply don't (or just don't think about). Up till this thread I had no idea who Sasha Grey was and IF I were into BDSM then I would have trouble telling between a feminist acceptable BDSM video and one of Sasha's.

So where does one draw the line, unless all BDSM is unacceptable but then you are denying certain feminist strands their right to interpret feminism in a way they find acceptable. Which brings me back to POV.

But that's fine. I can see you have very rational arguments and I respect that so is probably best leaving it at that smile

Katiekitty Fri 10-May-13 08:54:27

I'm so hacked off with how porn is thrusting its way into mainstream media.

DM also guilty of this.

On today's showbiz site:

How Snoop Dog/Lion used to be a pimp ("I put an organisation together. I did a Playboy tour, and I had a bus follow me with ten b***hes on it.")

Two lead stories on former Playboy playmates Kendra Wilkinson and Holly Madison

And a story on MTV Teen Mom Farrah Abraham and how she sold her sex tape (called 'Backdoor Teen Mom') for $1m

Who, I wonder, is getting rich off all this?

hmm

HairyLittleCarrot Fri 10-May-13 13:59:49

wrt my analogy:
I'm unsure of the ratios of male:female
1. industry stakeholders (producers, directors, distributors, investors, crew)
2. consumers
3. supporters/promoters/pro-campaigners/active proponents

and also wonder about M/F ratios in the following categories
4. participants primarily on the receiving end of physical damage, stds, verbal abuse and objectification.
5. victims of sexual crimes which are portrayed routinely in porn
6. criminals convicted of sexual crimes where porn has been cited as an influencing factor.

because, yes, my assumption is that there is a huge male bias on the numbers 1,2,3&6
and a female bias 4&5.

Am I wrong?

HairyLittleCarrot Fri 10-May-13 14:02:42

in other words, it is predominately males who profit and benefit from porn
and predominately women who are damaged and detrimental affected by it.

But I'm happy to see figures that prove me wrong.

Technotropic Fri 10-May-13 14:32:08

That's not quite right Hairy as the imbalance with porn is that the female stars get paid significantly more than the males. The people that get rich of porn are the producers obviously but the women do very well out of it too.

But again, you clearly are anti-porn so will always argue against it. Others will argue for it (including pro-porn feminist women).

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 10-May-13 16:27:43

Techno, I agree that the women are paid more. I don't know what proportion do very well out of it though (same for male performers)

HairyLittleCarrot Fri 10-May-13 16:44:19

part of my point is that just because a tiny number of women profit well, this does not negate the overwhelming male-beneficial: female-detrimental dynamic.

a bit like saying, "well, Margaret Thatcher was PM so there is no need to be concerned about the under-representation of women in positions of political power."

One or two successful women do not wipe out an overall bias.

bestegg Fri 10-May-13 17:36:58

I havent read the entire thread, but have the people saying shame on elle actually read the article? It is not a positive article about sasha grey, it ends on quite a negative tone about here and the statements she makes about her career in porn.

Techno, female stars may get paid more than their male counterparts - (their careers are significantly shorter and the physical damage more complex) however, they are as hairy says, a dot in the ocean compared to the male directors, producers, cameramen, distributers, etc, etc. the chief beneficiary of the porn industry at present are men. The chief losers are women.

Sparklyboots Fri 10-May-13 18:19:07

But sex-positive feminists would unlikely recognise SG as one of them. Sex-positive feminism isn't about describing participating in male centric, male identified porn as feminist, but in creating a public sphere for the feminist reconsideration of female sexuality, which might include but is not limited to the creation and use of pornography that is female centric and female identified, or at least reflects the politics and values of the feminists that consider themselves sex-positive. This would include room for the exploration of the erotic potential of submission/ BDSM but crucially in a contextualised, critiqued and female identified way. SG has not been involved in such work. And the mere relabelling of a porn career in gonzo porn as an act of sex-positive feminism doesn't change that, it just demonstrates that the person so travelling has misinterpreted feminism and sex-positive feminism.

This is only inequitable if you assume equity is based on the relative rights of individuals to self-identify; I think that this is neo-liberal bullshit TBH, and only possible if you are so beholden to the post-modern relativism of language that we may as well stop talking cos the construction of meaning is purely an individual act. If you believe in the capacity of language to name something specific, or even just in its capacity to say what a thing isn't, then self-identification is unreliable; I can call myself black all I like, but I'm white, and while I might be trying to recognise and claim for myself a political response to dominant conceptions of race, I would still be fundamentally wrong in self-identifying as black. By the definition of sex-positive fems, SG' s work is not feminist in itself; by the definition of feminism as a word that refers to women as a class, her desire to reclaim it has such is neither here nor there.

I think we should try and remember that sex-positive feminism is not a strand of feminism in the way cultural or Marxist feminism are because it does not describe a political approach to gender and social identity but a particular view of a particular issue which will itself arise from a broader conception of gender politics, a kind of feminism. An interest in women only insofar as they have a sexual identity is not sex-positive, or any other kind of feminism; it's fetishism precisely encoded with patriarchy, making an attempt to relabel itself as something more palatable and claiming neo-liberal rights to self-identification which are in themselves, nothing to do with feminism.

Technotropic Fri 10-May-13 22:51:25

Woman: I'm not a feminist but......

Feminist: So you don't believe in equality?

Woman: Yes I do.

Feminist: Then it's simple, you're a feminist.

If I had a £1 every time I heard or read the above.... wink. Somehow something that started of with the premise of being very ridiculously simple has become very messy indeed.

I think we should try and remember that sex-positive feminism is not a strand of feminism.....

As you can probably tell I'm quite liberal and all inclusive so you'll forgive me for thinking you're in denial. That's a pretty damning statement there and that's fine as its good to know the lie of the land.

Sparklyboots Fri 10-May-13 23:26:57

Read the whole sentence, I didn't say there wasn't something called sex positive feminism, but that it is a view which is encompassed within other kinds of feminism. It's all very well being liberal and taking all comers but that makes language meaningless in contexts like this. Plus the whole, feminsim = equality statement you made is pretty much not applicable in the product that SG has made, the men and women aren't equal in it so even if that is your all-coming standard, SG doesn't qualify.

I'd love to continue this discussion but I have literally just gone into labour with my DD1. Hence my heightened concerns about feminism and also why I probably won't be able to respond for a while...

FloraFox Fri 10-May-13 23:55:07

Wow good luck Sparkly! Your contributions here have been amazing!

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sat 11-May-13 00:13:43

Sparkly, you just won the thread flowers

Bogeyface Netherlands Sat 11-May-13 00:31:23

I believe childbirth trumps everything!

Good luck Sparkly smile

PaWithABra Sat 11-May-13 00:37:49

good luck and good writing.

I was having difficultly consolidating my opinions over this .. you have a gone along way to help frame them.

libertarianj Sat 11-May-13 05:02:50

Thisisaeuphemism female stars may get paid more than their male counterparts - (their careers are significantly shorter and the physical damage more complex) however, they are as hairy says, a dot in the ocean compared to the male directors, producers, cameramen, distributers, etc, etc. the chief beneficiary of the porn industry at present are men. The chief losers are women.

Do you have any facts or figures to back up those assumptions? hmm

According to the study of 10,000 porn stars ( based on the Internet Adult Film Database) it was found that women's careers averaged 3 years compared to men of 4 years. Also it found women did an average of 19 films compared to men who did 16 films. I would hardly call that significantly shorter.
and there are loads of women directors /photographers. Never heard of Suze Randall? she's one of the biggest names in porn. A fair few female porn stars go on to be directors too.

Here's the top 20 richest porn stars:

www.worldoffemale.com/20-most-richest-porn-stars-on-earth-sfw/

FloraFox Sat 11-May-13 06:01:50

Takes the blue pill -> can name one female director / photographer.

So everything is okay then. Nothing to worry about. Move along folks.

Good luck Sparky!!

Libertarian, why have you posted a link to the best paid porn stars? It is well known that the real money in porn goes not to the actresses but to the producers, directors and distributors (who are, despite you naming a single woman, overwhelmingly male) or do you dispute that?

As you are such a porn affecianado you'll know the name Bill Margold, (One of the industry's longest-serving film performers, he was interviewed by psychoanalyst Robert Stoller for his book Porn: Myths For The Twentieth Century.)

"My whole reason for being in this industry is to satisfy the desire of the men in the world who basically don't care much for women and want to see the men in my industry getting even with the women they couldn't have when they were growing up. So we come on a woman's face or brutalise her sexually: we're getting even for lost dreams."

Many studies show that men who watch a lot of violent porn trivialize rape.

Of course, according to you this is GREAT NEWS for women.

AnyFucker Germany Sat 11-May-13 11:27:46

Sparkly, good luck and thanks for your contributions

BadLad Sat 11-May-13 15:49:07

I think the main problem with the white v black analogy is that there aren't any scenarios, that I can think of at least, where white people could do something to black people which would be universally accepted if done in private, and indeed, done by almost everybody in the world. But film and distribute it, and it becomes distasteful.

So I don't think it really works for the porn industry in its entirety.

PaleHousewifeOfCumbriaCounty Sat 11-May-13 21:11:34

Go sparkly! Pushhhhh!

libertarianj Sat 11-May-13 23:10:57

Thisisaeuphemism why have you posted a link to the best paid porn stars? It is well known that the real money in porn goes not to the actresses but to the producers, directors and distributors (who are, despite you naming a single woman, overwhelmingly male) or do you dispute that?

You Say 'real money', but every woman in that top 20 list is a multimillionaire with Jenna Jameson at 30 million. yeah i could have listed other directors/ producers, Fiona Cooper, Jenna Hayes, Missy Suicide, Jill Kelly etc.
However If you could post a link up which supports your claim about how much male producers/ directors are earning i would be interested to see it? We should also bare in mind that a lot of companies are suffering financially too, and porn stars are cutting out the middle man, doing things like web cams instead:

www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/19/porn-industry-in-decline_n_2460799.html

Haven't heard of that Margold geezer but he sounds like a right tool.

Many studies show that men who watch a lot of violent porn trivialize rape.

Again could you provide some evidence for this?, most studies i've seen haven't been able to establish a link. I think this one was the latest failed attempt:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2261377/Porn-study-scrapped-researchers-failed-ANY-20-males-hadn-t-watched-it.html

From that article i did think this bit was spot on though and goes back to what i said earlier about porn not actually being that influential:

Lajeunesse found most boys seek out pornographic material by the age of 10, when they are most sexually curious. However, they quickly discard what they don't like and find offensive. As adults, they will continue to look for content in tune with their image of sexuality.

confused on that link- they give the actors/actresses age, number of films, wealth and HEIGHT.

Yes I'm sitting here thinking "I wonder how tall that tattooed male Rock Porn Star is" wink

McGeeDiNozzo Sun 12-May-13 04:11:48

Without reading the other pages of the thread...

Yes, the kind of porn Sasha Grey does is horrible, and yes it perverts sexual norms, and yes I don't really think what she does is particularly conducive to the empowerment or advancement of women.

But if she reckons she's a feminist, then let her be one. You're all on the same side, so being disgusted with each other is just People's Front of Judaea/Judaean People's Front stuff - so, so counterproductive, and yet lefties fucking love it for some reason.

McGeeDiNozzo Sun 12-May-13 04:16:23

And I say that as a leftie. You might as well welcome the person of whom you don't approve to the party. She might change her mind in time. Other porn stars have done.

McGeeDiNozzo Sun 12-May-13 04:24:28

Well, sorry about the 'People's Front of Judaea' post and the 'judgey' accusations - looks like I've been going after a straw man and there was no personal criticism of Sasha Grey in the OP.

If Sasha Grey wants to call herself a feminist then that is fine. But if Elle Magazine is touting her as a feminist, and therefore as something other feminists should aspire to - as a magazine that lots and lots of women read - then that isn't really fine and the OP is NBU. Brutal porn is not a pro-woman thing.

Straw men suck. So easy to get taken in by them. Apologies.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sun 12-May-13 09:24:04

Badlad, fair enough but the context of Hairy's analogy and indeed the thread was porn where people were hurt, damaged, degraded and verbally abused and those people were primarily women (or black people, in the analogy.)

Technotropic Sun 12-May-13 10:30:48

Indeed, all the best Sparkly!

McGee

I think the discussion developed from the original post tbh so I don't think it was a straw man/woman argument. But I digress.

From my interpretation of the OP, Scarletto slammed Elle for labelling SG a feminist. This then turned into a near campaign with Elle's contact details being posted up so that we could all complain to them directly.

What I felt was missed was that it possibly wasn't Elle that labelled her as a feminist but SG herself, hence the 'People's Front of Judea' stuff. In fairness to Elle they appear to have simply published a description of her, which is what any magazine would do to any interviewee (pornstar or not). They are not touting at all IMHO. After all, why would any magazine chose to feature an individual and then decide for themselves what description would be most appropriate?

In any case, SG gave up porn 4 years ago so who is to say that her life 'today' is in any way anti-feminist?

The complaint the OP has is ultimately with Elle but who are they to judge whether SG is a feminist or not? This is the 'People's Front' bit. As I posted a while back, SG is acting, writing, sings in a band and also DJ's in clubs. Given this is what she does 'now', and also that no one here actually knows her in person, what qualification do we have to argue with Elle?

Technotropic Sun 12-May-13 11:01:09

Just to add, I think Elle could have written something like, 'self confessed' or 'self proclaimed' and escaped all this criticism.

Then the argument would have been with SG herself.

PaleHousewifeOfCumbriaCounty Sat 25-May-13 12:19:17

See this months Marie Claire.... Very interesting continuation of our discussions here. A feminist makes porn... After enjoying lots of porn.... Because shes a feminist... Concludes..... Porn is not feminist.... Very interesting read.

perrycoma Tue 30-Jul-13 15:14:25

BinksToEnlightenment:
"How far are dicks allowed in my mouth before I automatically hate all other women?

I just think it's nuts to use that as a yardstick."

Genius! smile