To think these new guidelines on fetal movements may cause a lot of undue worry.(71 Posts)
Hi all, I am currently 34 weeks pregnant with my third child, I already have a DS who is 5 and a DD who is 2.
With both my previous pregnancies my midwives have told me that as long as I was getting 10 fetal kicks/ movements a day then not to worry.
My DS was very active in the womb however my DD wasnt an active baby at all ( she makes up for it now though!!) and I literally only got between 10/20 movement a day if I was lucky.
With this current pregnancy I have been told that the baby needs to move 10 times an hour or without a doubt they definately need to move 10 times within 2 hours or you need to seek medical advice, to me this puts undue worry on mothers especially if they have been feeling frequent movements and seems like it may put pressure on the NHS/ midwife services. I dont understand why they have changed their views on fetal movement, I appreciate that it could possibly save lives and I appreciate that even if this change helps one baby then there is a benefit but I am just wondering why after all these years they have changed their policy which has seemed to work well in the past.
My older two (now ages 24 and 19) hardly moved at all, maybe 10 all day like you said. They were wedged in pretty tight as I'm so short, poor babies, breech too.
It is a bit silly to focus on the number of movements as these will be different for different babies, and depend on positioning and the positioning of the placenta. What is important is getting to know what is normal and getting checked if it changes.
However, I do think there needs to be more awareness of this issue as the UK has really awful foetal death rates, something like 17 babies are stillborn every day and you are much more likely to lose your baby to stillbirth than cot death - and yet when I was pregnant I got loads of advice about SIDS and nothing about foetal movement and when to get checked out if I had concerns.
That's really odd, I've only seen written and promoted that any changes in your normal pattern of movements mean that you should go and be monitored.
At 39 weeks DD stopped moving for a day. She rolled over then stopped. I went to hospital her heart was decelerating from normal to 80bpm.
They sent DH home for my labour bag and immediately took me down for an induction and kept me on the monitor until she was born the decelerating was due to a trapped cord.
So I would say YABU as yes there is more worry but me worrying about movement saved my daughter's life.
I think the advice should be if baby moves a lot less than usual or stops moving all together then go straight to hospital and not that they should have to do a set amount. All my babies had quiet days towards the end, they were big babies and run out of space! Some babies also just move less than others so I think it should be down to whatever is normal for your baby.
YY to a change in movements DD1 barely moved. DD2 was very active, realised I hadn't felt her move all day at around 7 months and was taken straight in and given a very thorough exam. She had moved and was wriggling but I could no longer feel her.
The midwives were very insistent though that if I felt it happening again I was to go in, never worry I was troubling anyone and should always get it checked out. There needs to be more emphasis on this I think.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
I agree with lunaticfringe. Many women are unaware of when to get checked out and often I see/hear women saying that babies are quieter towards the end as room is restricted, which isn't really true and you should get checked out if movement reduces.
I'd rather be worried and have a living baby and I'm sure most women would feel the same.
Thanks all I suppose there must have been a reason why the movement policy changed and Im so glad that babies have been saved but I was always told as long as your getting regular movements throughout the day then not to worry, obviously if your baby hasnt moved for a few hours then understandably medical help needs to be saught but I think that 10 movements in1/ 2 hours is very precise and could make mums worry more than they should.
My DS is 5months and I was told 10 times a day, not hour. That would of be impossible as he would sleep 3-4hrs at a time in the womb.
Yabu i agree with lunatic and actually its better if a mum worries and gets checked out to be told all is fine, far better than the alternative.
Any change in babies movements should be noted and its better to grt checked out if you have any concern. I goy checked a few times with dd (no 5) my.placenta was at the front so i didnt feel her movements as much but my midwife and the hospital were always happy to check all was well.
In this pregnancy I've been told that it's not the absolute number of movements which matters, but rather whether baby has shown it's usual pattern of movements that day. If not, they've said to lie down on left side for 2 hours, 10 movements in that time indicating that all is well. I think that's the current RCOG guideline?
Mums should worry more. We are losing far too many babies in this country from stillbirth and awareness is everything.
When I was expecting dd2 a work colleague had a friend expecting her 4th. She was about 36 weeks pg. Very experienced and chilled out mum and she WAS aware of the importance of movements. She rang her husband and told him she would be late him from work because she was going to stop at the hospital and get them to check the ba who had been 'quiet'. Husband said 'don't be daft, don't wait, go NOW'. So she did and monitoring revealed baby was in trouble. Fortunately a c-section saved that baby's life - but it was the awareness of it's parents that made the difference.
Mums in the third trimester SHOULD be worried about stillbirth, should be as pro-active in avoiding it as they are for cot death after birth.
I think it is better to be a bit worried then get checked and reassured than the other way round.
I think what spring forward says makes a bit more sense. Im all for awareness of movements and I'm glad that my placenta is further back this time round so I am feeling much more, but I wouldn't actually be ablevot go about my day if I was waiting for at least 10 movements per hour/2 hours. sometimes I don't think about the baby for a good few hours while I work/ care for dd/ read, sleep etc - not like last time when I was thinking about the baby every nano second!
I agree that it's the type of movements and any change in movement that's more important.
there definitely needs to be more awareness of telling your midwife immediately you notice any changes. it's good to say "if your baby hasn't veen doing its normal movements or they've slowed down or changed in any way (because sometimes more movements than normal are a sign of distress) then ask the mw"
dictating how many movements is daft because as you say, wonen will worry too much or lose count and panic!
and babies definitely don't move less as they get bigger - they might change the way they move because of lack of space, but they do not slow down.
The varying guidelines can be confusing. But I got the same message from mw to come in if any thing had changed and even if things were ok that time to go in again on any new occasion and not to assume things are ok if it had been before. As I was worried about lossing count in the day I used a count the kicks bracelet to help www.countthekicks.org.uk/ was happy to but it as it was for charity - we have a really bad stillbirth record in the uk. It's shaming.
My son is 2 weeks and the consultant at the hospital told me 10 times in 24 hours.
I just got told if there was any change in the frequency or if I became concerned to ring and go in. Although as I got further on I didn't get kicks as such (granted I only made it to 36 weeks) - you still should be getting squirms, arse wriggles, limbs jammed in uncomfortable places and enough to make you realise someone's partying down in there. I think intuition and gut feeling shouldn't be underestimated either - both times I've delivered prematurely and both times I've known it was going to happen a day or so before (kind of like an animal nesting up and hiding away).
I didn't go in when I felt a lack of movement late in pregnancy. I live with that decision every.single.day.
By the time I went in she was in distress, the doctor on duty was new, junior, no senior staff on weekends and didn't act fast enough to get her out. Two weeks in NICU, first eight days in a coma, long term disability and seizure issues.
We should be made more aware of a change of movements, improve maternity standards in general and perhaps even change protocol for weekend practice (massive teaching hospital, best in region) so that at all times better decisions are taken.
Oh and like miaow above I knew something was very very wrong and partway through the induced labour I knew exactly when she was deprived of oxygen (though I just thought she qss in trouble), even then they didn't take me seriously.
I was told 10 movements a day and my DD is 7mo. I went in for a check for reduced movements as she was a little wriggler, could feel her all day every day from 15 weeks. One day she was much quieter so went to check.
MW there asked if I'd had 10 movements that day, I said yes and she told me it was all fine, wasn't going to bother checking, I had to explain that even though I'd had the 10 her movements were massively reduced compared to normal. Luckily all was fine but I was a bit annoyed!
Oh god, my daughter (now 2) was really lazy in the womb. I think I had to go to the maternity unit about 6 times in the third trimester, when I hadn't felt 10 movements in a day. She was fine every time and would always start moving around once I was hooked up to the machine. My mum apparently had the same with all of us - all lazy babies.
I am now 5 wks pregnant with DC2, if this baby is anything like her and these are the new guidelines I'll be in every bloody day!
I should add I had an anterior high placenta (at the front), apparently that cushioned it so I wouldn't feel a lot of her movements. I could see on the machine and on scans that she was moving, but couldn't feel it happening. Could only feel the kicks to the side.
I remember asking if hiccups counted as movements as she had them every day. They thought I was a bit odd
redwellybluewelly very sorry to hear about your experience.
I remember asking some one about hiccups countng as movement and was told one bout f hiccups equals one movement iykwim not each hiccup one movement. Sounded sensible to me at the time. Ds was v hiccupy inside me and can be a v hiccupy 8 mo :-)
Well your midwife in your previous pregnancies was giving you outdated and dangerous advice. Ten kicks a day hasn't been recommended for ages.
Like others have said its the pattern of movement....is it normal or reduced. If 30 kicks a day was normal for you, then 10 in a day wouldn't be reassuring.
I've never heard the 10 in an hour advice and I'm a midwife. No sure where that policy has come from.
With DS I was on the monitor practically every day from about 24 weeks as he just didn't really move at all, no anterior placenta it was just that he slept pretty much constantly, I'd be on the monitor for hours as they couldn't get him to move either.
If it had been 10 movements an hour I would never have left the place!
But I do think that there needs to be more awareness of what can happen and if this helped that and saved even one life then I think it would be worth it.
YABU. Any amount of undue worry beats a still birth. I have 2 babies that were born alive because I was keeping an eye on movements. The stats for still birth in this country are a bloody disgrace. The other factor in my second baby was having regular / frequent scans to monitor placenta function. This is standard in some countries. I had to push for it initially, though I soon had my consultant on side when it became apparent my concerns were well founded.
Ds1 was quite lazy, ds2 was kicking and punching me while I was in labour. I was told any change in "normal" movement to get checked out. 10 movements an hour every hour seems a bit odd as they do sleep for a couple of hours at a time.
I'm so glad this guideline is in place.
On my due date I failed to get my 10 movements.
Tried the trick of choc bar and iced water, still no movements.
Advised to come to hospital to be checked.
after 1 hr of checks it was decided to deliver via emcs due to ds being in distress.
I was only told to count 10 movements min in a day.
I don't know. I had an anterior placenta with dd and felt barely anything. I didn't feel a kick until 24 weeks and even after that I rarely felt anything much. Definitely not 10 movements an hour.
My dd had hiccups once a day most days - but other thn that didn't move at all - these guidelines would have terrified me - she's 11 now
I am almost 37 weeks and at 36 weeks I noticed a massive reduction in movements. Had to go for monitoring 3 days in a row (all of which said everything was fine) and then a scan to check growth was ok (which was ok). The baby still doesn't move around as much as it did previously but everyone has said that all ok based on the checks and that I should just make sure I get 10 kicks a day. Have been told that it is usual at this stage to feel less as less room for baby to move, and also that they sleep more in preparation for their journey in to the world. Seems everyone has a different opinion....it worries me every day as no idea what to believe/who to listen to
i didnt phone the hospital for 2 days when i felt no movement with dc3. i was 28 weeks.i knew something was wrong.turns out i had a huge blood clot in the umbilical cord so he died very quickly. i urge any mums with any pregnancy concerns to seek immediate help.
I think there should be much more emphasis on getting checked out quickly if you notice a change in movements. Far too much sitting about drinking cold drinks and eating sugar while babies quietly die in utero. My ds will always suffer because I thought they moved less towards the end.
Really sorry about your ds ashoething
Bad x-post, not referring to anyone specifically but far to many posters on the 'haven't felt baby move much' threads are still advocating cold drinks. It's infuriating.
Great thread, I need a kick (pardon the pun) up the backside in this area. I worry because I just don't get the time in the day to tune in and feel for movements, in fact, this pregnancy, I harly have time to remember I'm pregnant! Sure, I notice them (and sometimes my pupils, who regularly sit at my feet, eye level with the bump, shriek as they see ripples across my dress), but I find it hard to make that mental note that a movement occured and keep count. At 32 weeks I still haven't been able to establish a regular "pattern of movement". I will really, really try harder now. I am very sorry to read the stories of your losses.
But the mws also say that. They say to try that for an hour and then call back if nothing.
I think the information on what to do if movements aren't normal or as frequent should be paramount rather than the amount ie 10 kicks an hour.
Women need to feel confident they aren't wasting time when seeking immediate medical attention when they feel something is wrong.
The motto should be "make your way to hospital if you have any concerns, instinct matters", thing is 10 kicks an hour is normal for some babies but not others.
So sorry for all you that have experienced the loss of a baby x
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
I went into hospital because of reduced movements with DS - he was fine - but I got told then by the registrar that if I thought I was having reduced movements again, I should have some ice-cream and sit quietly for an hour, and only go in if there was still reduced movements.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
I guess I was bloody lucky then. No suggestions of cold drinks, told to come in straight away, ds born within an hour of arriving in hospital. He survived
He was in scbu for weeks and I can't count the number of times people said how they wished more women would present earlier with reduced movements.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
YABU, I have just supported a relative through a difficult pregnancy. She had numerous admissions into the Liverpool Women's, every time she went in there was a woman in, whose baby had died,in Utero. That is what the emergency room is for, to get checked out, the staff couldn't be nicer and give the message that it is best to go and get monitored, than lose the baby. Unless you have all of the facts and figures, how can you say that the advice worked well in the past? And why do you think you can advise women better than the professionals and NHS?
I am so glad I saw a poster at the hospital telling me to call if I felt reduced fetal movements.
That one poster saved my son's life and quite possibly mine.
I was quite poorly, I just didn't realise quite how poorly I was. You get information overload when you are pregnant - the more important things sometimes need to be pointed out, even if they sound so obvious in hind sight.
I'd hope mums-to-be would err more on the side of caution tbh.
My friend did, as she'd had reduced movements. She went to A&E and was left to sit there for several hours. Her little boy was stillborn three days later
Yes, please err on the side of caution. I delayed a bit about coming in to hospital to be checked out as there is so much pressure "not to waste NHS resources", but once I came in, they couldn't have been kinder or more understanding. DD was OK, thank goodness.
This is important- don't worry about NHS resources in this situation as the consequences can be just so terrible. The hospital won't have a go at you or tell you you are wasting their time. You aren't.
I think a lot of it is down to common sense on the mother tbh.and gut instinct.babies do have sleepy days in the womb as they do when they are born.these guidelines keep changing no wounder parents are confused.
The guidelines don't keep changing. Keeping an eye on movements has always been advised. What this thread is discussing is some more specific advice. There's no need for people to be confused - except by the myths surrounding babies in the womb. They don't slow down before birth, they don't have whole sleepy days and it's not normal to feel less movement at the end of pregnancy.
Agree with northern they don't slow down before birth and it's not normal to feel less movement towards the end but so many people still believe this to be true.
Any change in movement should be checked or any worries you have however daft you might think they are.
With ds4 I was worried about my cervix, there was no reason to think
Anything was wrong. Just felt heavy and not as far back as before. I left it thinking I was being silly and 3 days later my cervix failed. My son was born at 20 weeks.
It will haunt me forever, we loose too many babies in this country through second trimester losses and still birth, many could be saved by cheap blood tests or like me more regular scans. Although I didn't know at the time my waters breaking early with ds2 &3 was probably due to cervical problems, yet they don't give extra scans to check until you've had three prem babies or second tri loss.
I had an emcs at 27 weeks. After 24 hours of slower movements I decided to get checked thinking everything was probably fine i was just being paranoid. He lived for two hours. Turns out he had a lack of oxygen which reduced his movements but I thought everything was ok as he was moving. I wish I had counted the kicks as if I had gone into hospital sooner he may have survived.
This isn't scaremongering or a sob story, this is highly unlikely to happen to any if you, however, I just hope people take on the advice as it can save lives.
With dd1 I had very little movement if any. She used to hiccup daily so knew everything was ok, but had my concerns when seeing the mw. She said all was well.
Turns out, dd1 had a short umbilical cord that snapped on birth, it was only 15cm
Then I was pg with dd2. Then I knew what movement everyone was talking about, except she battered me from inside, like knee movements, and seeing feet and hands. I never had that with dd1.
So to me I think the new guidelines would have been very useful with dd1.
That's awful rosduck, I'm so sorry for you & all the other posters who have lost babies.
I agree with everyone who says about going into hospital with reduced movements. Dd was vv active in the womb, but I remember 1 day her movements halved from 100 to 50. When I rang up the ward to say I was concerned, the MW laughed at me & said 50 was more than most babies did in the womb. Thankfully she started moving as soon as I got off the phone (the monkey), but my instincts were right, later on at 32 weeks she stopped growing & I was induced at 36 weeks. She is a happy 8 mo now.
Don't take chances, if you're worried, get yourself checked out.
Fwiw I think the 10 movements in 2 hrs guideline is much clearer than the 10 in a day; it means that if a baby is at risk their life is more likely to be saved as less time will have passed.
I believe the current guidelines are if there is a change in your baby's pattern of movements to get checked out.
Dd was very active, until one day she wasn't. I was in bits, we went to hospital - I had an anterior placenta, and at 8 months she'd managed to hide herself completely behind it and was moving but I couldn't feel her. The midwives were excellent and assured me I'd don't the right thing. She moved out from her hiding spot the next day. It was awful.
I am hyper aware of my babies movements in my pregnancies, due to the count the kicks campaign, and I don't think that's a bad thing. Better a worried mum who gets checked out and a live baby.
I do think this is something that pregnant women need to understand better.
I was always told the ten movements in a day thing too. Luckily for me DD had a very regular 'pattern' of movement fron around 24 weeks. So when that changed suddenly at 39+6, and I mentioned it whilst I was in for monitoring the MW hooked her up for monitoring - I had a crash section less than an hour later, DD spent a week in the NICU.
We were told in no uncertain terms that she wouldn't have survived another day in utero. I'll be a lot more cautious
and demanding if I ever manage a second pregnancy.
I was told I should be able to count 10 movements in 2 hours when I was pregnant in 2011, so the guideline can't be all that new. I found the "kick counter" wristband extremely helpful, otherwise I would lose track. I guess I consciously counted kicks over a 2-hour period two or three times a day, which wasn't too arduous.
I remember in 1995 being told 10 active periods in 24 hours
DD is 3 and I was told any change in movement. If DD had only moved 10 times in 24 hours there would have been a serious problem, she was a 10 movements a minute baby - she moved constantly for a couple of days when I was at 37 weeks. I did go in for reduced movements when she reduced to 2-3 movements an hour, but luckily she was fine. The hospital were great and I was never made to feel I was wasting anyone's time. 10 movements might be normal for one baby but mean serious issues for another.
I had no advice at all from my midwives. They would just ask if he was moving at each appointment. When I asked about what was normal they told me that whatever is normal for you is fine, they don't give out kick charts anymore as they just makes people paranoid. [Hmm] Thankfully I was on MN as I ended up having a lot of worries about lack of movement.
I was admitted several times for monitoring. His heart rate was often slowing but as soon as the movements and heart rate picked up I was sent home. He was transverse until 41wks too so had very little room to move, I also wasn't told any of the risks of that either but that's another subject.
I eventually went into the early stages of labour but it stopped after 12 hours and DS was completely still. They monitored me all day and finally induced 6 hours later.
After a horrific 4 hour labour DS was born with the cord tight around his neck and not breathing. Thankfully we were very very lucky, he was resuscitated very quickly and has suffered no long term damage. That is purely luck though. The treatment I had was appalling and left me with borderline PTSD and PND.
The worst part of it is that I'm far to terrified to ever have another child. Irrational as it may be I blame them for that. I ache to have another baby but I just couldn't ever do it.
I'm so sorry for all those who have suffered losses, my heart goes out to you. I never forget how lucky I am, I am thankful every single day that DS survived. I would whole-heartedly support any campaign for an increase in the monitoring of foetal movements.
Moomins - true. some pcts do offer it, though. my sister was offered extra cervical scans when she had her 3rd because number 1 was 12 weeks early and number 2 was 6 weeks early.
have to say, i don't know if it's because she asked. (it might have been because number 1 has cerebral palsy)
Like you OP, my dd was a lazy baby inside. The sonographers were worried at her lack of movement in 3 scans as she hadn't moved from the same position for 2 weeks. My ds was a kicker and wouldn't let them take proper measurements at 20 weeks.
However, I KNEW my baby's movements and my instinct told me everything was fine. I know it sounds a bit hippy, but a mother's instinct during pregnancy is really something to go by. If you don't feel 10 movements in an hour, and that's not normal for your baby then it would be a good idea to get checked out.
When my mum was pregnant with me, I don't think they had special guidelines for mothers to go by. As it happened my Mum felt I wasn't moving as much, went down to the hospital and I was in distress which resulted in an emergency c-sec.
When I was pregnant with DD, I could have easily count 20 movements an hour, she was a proper fidget. Currently 21 weeks with what seems to be a fairly
lazy relaxed baby so far. Certainly not managing 10 an hour, but my fab midwive has discussed this with me, and advised me that if I'm worried that it's less than usual, to sit quietly, drink a glass of very cold water and give it a few minutes to see if I get kicked. If not, call her immeadiately.
All medical guidelines are sweeping generalisations. I'd rather the advice err on the side of caution. Better to have it checked than to assume everythings ok, even if it's just to be told that actually 10 kicks a day is normal for this pregnancy.
When I was pregnant with dd, all movement stopped on a Saturday night/Sunday morning. I didn't have a clue if that was normal or not. I hadn't been told anything about movement.
So I waited till Monday and rang my midwife. She told me not to worry and to keep my pre arranged appointment for the next day.
Within the hour of the appointment I had been transferred to hospital and had an emergency c-section at 28 weeks.
So I think the more info the better because I had NONE.
But then the same midwife dismissed my itchy legs and other symptoms when I had pre-eclampsia too.
I wasnt told to count movements but when I was overdue with my first child I did complain of movements slowing down and was told this was normal as the baby prepares for birth. However,it wasnt normal and when I was 9 days overdue I went to be checked out as had felt no movement at all that morning. A scan revealed my daughter had died. I was told to come back two days later to be induced.
I really urge all pregnant women to check out any decrease in movement and insist on a foetal heart trace if necessary. Don't think you are wasting anyone's time or overreacting.
Labtest, your post has given me chills.
I'm so sorry for your loss
unique yes I should have said some pcts, I was actually due for one at 24 weeks, it was the earlier from 16 weeks that I didn't fit criteria for.
Same with cervical stitches although luckily I fit criteria for that in my next pg due to my consultant attempting a rescue stitch with the baby I lost. The consultant a saw the first day said it was too late to try.
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