To think middle-class Guardian reading lefties, really are morally superior to their rabid Daily Mail/Telegraph reading counterparts?

(207 Posts)
ComposHat Sun 05-May-13 01:47:49

Posh lefty handwringers/Champagne Socialists/The Islington mafia call them what you like, but I think they are unfairly maligned.

Because in purely self economic terms it would be more beneficial to adopt a right wing stance and advocate less taxation, cuts in stamp duty and inheritance tax, yet they take an opposing view in the interests of fairness and justice.

By contrast, Middle/upper class Tories act largely in their own interest.

LittleMissLucy Sun 05-May-13 03:52:36

And the AIBU is what, exactly?

What about people who read all those papers, daily? How would you like to categorize and / or dismiss them?

Salbertina Sun 05-May-13 03:52:51


OrangeFootedScrubfowl Sun 05-May-13 03:56:46

Depends. What if the G reader is an arsonist and the DM reader runs a donkey sanctuary? Or summat.

LittleMissLucy Sun 05-May-13 04:19:14

what if Telegraph "reader" only buys it to wipe his / her bottom?

Springdiva Sun 05-May-13 04:49:42

Aren't they all teachers?

Salbertina Sun 05-May-13 06:10:07


MrsWolowitz Sun 05-May-13 06:43:23

Ah how easy it must be to live in a world where you can judge someone from their choice of newspaper.

Salbertina Sun 05-May-13 06:52:32

Yep! Takes me right back to the 6th form

seeker Sun 05-May-13 06:53:26

Read the post as well as the title, people.

I think there are still some one nation type Tories who occupy the moral high ground, compos, but in general I agree with you.

People are now deeply suspicious or disbelieving of anyone who has believes or who votes against their own personal best interests.

Abra1d Sun 05-May-13 07:04:29

Many Guardian readers carefully position their families near decent state schools, so they don't have to worry. They live in leafy areas.

i know many, also, who send children to private schools.

Equally I know Telegraph readers like my husband who has spent the two years of his redundancy working pro bono for charities. He voted Tory, which directly led to his unemployment (the new govt cancelled his contract). He still thinks (as do I) that there was no other option. Labour had blown its moral credibility by lying (Iraq) and spending all the money.

So who was self-serving in this instance?

FanjoForTheMammaries Sun 05-May-13 07:06:23

YANBU wink

Cerisier Sun 05-May-13 07:06:27

The Guardian readers I know are teachers, doctors and government workers. None of them create wealth for the country, all of them are paid for by the taxpayer.

All of their jobs are important but they are not being selfless in voting for big government and high taxes.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Sun 05-May-13 07:08:52

I don't think it's fair to lump the Mail and the Telegraph in together; the Telegraph may have a particular world view, but at least it makes an effort to report the actual news insted of just making up any old shit to inflame prejudice and bigotry like the Mail does.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Sun 05-May-13 07:09:55

Absolutely, Cerisier, we must remember that doctors etc don't pay taxes of course. hmm

JakeBullet Sun 05-May-13 07:10:41

Nah, one of my best friends is a rabid Tory grin, he is also one of the most selfless people I know. We have some right political rows (mostly wine soaked) but even if I DO lean to the Left/Centre I don't consider myself morally superior to my friend. ...but neither is he morally superior to me. As people we are very similar but just vote differently and see the answers to issues in a different way.

dolcelatte Sun 05-May-13 07:14:48


It is much easier to have a 'touchy feely' view on the less fortunate members of society if you are sufficiently isolated from them.

There have been a number of debates on here, for example, about benefits and those who claim them - usually by someone posting a link to the Daily Mail, which they then claim not to read - and lots of moral posturing about evil right wing racists.

The individuals who have the strongest views tend to be those closest to them. I am willing to believe that most people who claim benefits are entitled to them but that a minority abuse the system. However, if I'm frank, I don't know anyone on benefits - not because I shun them - I just don't come across them. So I don't lose sleep worrying about false benefit claims. I just pay my taxes and accept that some of the money will be spent wisely and some not.

However, it would irritate the hell out of me if I were working very hard for little reward and knew that my next door neighbour was making false claims/abusing the system. These are the people who are voting for UKIP ie the ones who consider that their views are not taken account of.

So, having digressed, I don't think the people you refer to are morally superior; they just like to think they are. I also suspect that many of these individuals, whereas sufficiently above the majority in terms of financial reward and education to feel entitled to be patronising towards those they see as beneath them, are not actually high achievers. They are not, therefore, being particularly self sacrificing in espousing left wing views in relation to stamp duty, IHT etc.

HoneyDragon Sun 05-May-13 07:18:21

What a bonkers op. That's rather cheered me up this morning.

Salbertina Sun 05-May-13 07:31:26

Dolce- v well put

Buddhagirl Sun 05-May-13 07:32:55


NoWayPedro Sun 05-May-13 07:34:53

What newspapers do you think people of each 'class' should buy?

RubyGates Sun 05-May-13 07:44:35

It's very easy to look smug and superior, and nod your head at the wise political decisions coming from those benevolent socialists if

a) You are reliant on the government/local council for your income.
b) You are sufficiently well insulated from "real-life" to believe that the 'naice, outstanding, state school" that little Tarquin and Jocasta go to is indicative of what all state schools are like, (and you don't understand that other people's children are attending schools with security guards on the gate, shit on the walls and knives in pockets)
c) If the bottle of wine you had with dinner costs more than my week's entire grocery budget.
d) You only ever use public transport to a couple of stops into central London to see, "something quite daring" at the South Bank Centre.

(I can't afford a newspaper, I read them at work in the library)

JakeBullet Sun 05-May-13 07:45:52

I think on here that any view considered "bleeding heart" by the more right wing posters is attributed to Guardian reading, leftie and Islington types. I have found one or two folk on MN so right wing they are practically goose stepping . I have to admit to a feeling of "moral superiority" over those posters.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Sun 05-May-13 07:45:55

It is a good point, dolcelatte, but on the benefit-bashing threads you do see people claiming their neighbour is falsely claiming, without any actual idea of what they are getting and why. 'Free cars' and the like.

dogsandcats Sun 05-May-13 07:47:14

smile grin hmm have any of them really.
I dont think there are enough days in the week to answer this post, so I wont.
This could be a very long thread, or not.

noddyholder Sun 05-May-13 07:48:23

I know I am

FanjoForTheMammaries Sun 05-May-13 07:50:01

dolcelatte's point manages to be insulting to working class people and benefit claimants in one fell swoop IMO.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sun 05-May-13 07:50:54

Some humdingers of cliches about the middle class on here too.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Sun 05-May-13 07:52:25

Plus, there's more than one way to define 'morally superior'.

The Mail's always banging on about decline of morals and trendy lefties, although they are talking about sex things (single mums/gay marriage/abortion). The whole 'be excellent to one another' thing that some trendy liberal types think Jesus was actually trying to get across; gets pushed down the agenda somewhat.

RubyGates Sun 05-May-13 08:22:04

I should like to point out that many of our friends fall into the category I'm talking about. They're either in well paid local council/ education jobs or in the meeja.

They have absolutely no idea what it's like to be living the life they think they 'know best" about.

They are universally well-meaning but unbelievably condescending, never having once considered asking whether the policies they admire so much are actually what the people they are supposed to help want. (Probably because they don't know any, you know, socially). hmm
(It's a particular bug-bear of mine I'm afraid)

seeker Sun 05-May-13 08:36:27

So what do you think ought to happen, rubygates?

Binkybix Sun 05-May-13 08:44:15

Can't agree with this, and I'd say I'm centre left. It's a very insular view.

The first Guardian reading 'leftie' I can think of bases his very simplistic views exclusively from reading that paper, thinks people are very stupid if they ever disagree with him, even if they have better evidence. AND goes to quite elaborate lengths to avoid his taxes when he earns 6 figures, whilst pontificating to all and sundry about everything under the sun. Fucking idiot.

Interesting. I find my left wing friends on facebook 'rabid' my newsfeed is full Tory bashing constantly and yes they act morally superior imo. My Tory friends seem far more balanced on facebook. It gets to the point I have to hide some of my left wing friends at election times.

I really don't think the Daily Fail is on a par with the Torygraph really.

Anyway now I've added more generalisations to this thread, I'll leave wink

Binkybix Sun 05-May-13 08:48:17

To be fair, if the group you describe actually lived the values that they talk about, I'd think you had more of a point. In my personal experience (I know quite a lot of born and bred property/wealth inheritors etc) from Islington and surrounding areas, this is not the case.

Fecklessdizzy Sun 05-May-13 08:48:28

Smirks smugly and polishes halo on red flag ...

donnie Sun 05-May-13 08:52:54

I am a leftie and live in a leafy m/c suburb of North London. I am an ex-Islingtonian and I read the Guardian....and ...I'm a teacher!

So no, OP, you aren't being unreasonable because you have captured the essence of me and others like me perfectly! I don't think I am morally superior - I KNOW I am. I do sometimes read the DM online but only to scorn it and propel my own sense of innate superiority.

RubyGates Sun 05-May-13 08:53:51

It's the whole "we must be very clever indeed to read and agree with the Guardian" while simultaneously believing that the
"poor people who need the state's help must be very stupid/ poorly educated/ just haven't understood because they dare to hold different views"

To paraphrase" You don't agree with us, you must be stupid. We won't engage with you in discourse, we will pat you on the head, continue to believe what we do without listening to your views (even though you are the very people the Guardian is talking about) and try to guide you in your error.

It's just so incredibly patronising.

donnie Sun 05-May-13 08:55:04

Oh and in the spirit of this thread, on the rare occasions I see people 'round here reading the Sun or other red-tops, I do of course assume that they are white bread eating-Jezza Kyle watching -benefit scrounging - UKIP voting -white w/c uneducated scum. As you do.

Fecklessdizzy Sun 05-May-13 09:13:49

Left, Right ... Pffft. It's more about people's basic humanity and empathy. I'm pretty left-leaning but I've met Comrades I wouldn't trust an inch and Tories I'd trust with my life, and vice-versa! grin

RubyGates Sun 05-May-13 09:21:46

Do I know you Donnie? grin

StephaniePowers Sun 05-May-13 09:27:46

Bloody hell, so many assumptions about middle class liberals here.

I can say without a shadow of a doubt that in my little world (which is not as described on this thread) the people I know who read the Mail are thick and bigoted, the ones who read the Telegraph do it occasionally for a laugh or like the cricket, and the Guardian readers are pretty good eggs. Who possibly do not create a shitload of wealth for the financial sector but they happily pay taxes, would happily pay more, and are pretty much doing good for various sectors who need a bit of that.

But that's a straw poll of about fifty people and not really that representative.

PS I don't really know people who read the Independent. I also only know one person who reads the Times and she's nice but doesn't like me much so it's hard to judge grin

I don't feel like I understand the class system or the newspapers that supposedly represent the classes/political party views/etc at all.

One set of grandparents were working class, left school at 12 etc. Then put selves through top universities, became clergy, never earned any money. Their son (my dad) went to a top private school entirely on scholarships, bursaries etc. Votes labour. Now makes a fortune in the city.

Other set were children of doctors etc, pretty middle class. Their daughter (my mum) didn't go to uni. She's a secretary, low earner. Votes Tory, sounds posh! Divorced, small house, not much maintenance from dad, no pension.

I went to private schools, again on scholarships and bursaries. Went to a good uni. Am a teacher in a private school. DH is from a working class family. He was the first to go to uni, first to leave their town. Most of his school friends haven't left and don't have jobs. He works and always has-earns a low but liveable wage as long as we are careful. We live in the cheapest street in our city, in a tiny, tiny house that's all we can afford. Our joint salary is low-I work PT and almost all my wages pay for childcare. Working FT would have the same result so I'd rather spend the time with DD. Our house is ex-council. We could only afford to buy when we inherited DMIL's pension when she died. Most people on our street don't work, are often out in their pyjamas during the day when I'm at home with DD, lots of Union Jack flags flying. We've not lived here that long but everyone's been v friendly to us. We don't receive any tax credits etc-we do get child benefit. We shop in Aldi and have got our groceries bill down to £35 a week. We don't have a TV. Our car is 8 years old and we have no intention/ability to buy a new one probably in the next 10 years. We don't go on holiday.

How 'should' we vote? What paper 'should' we read?! DH has a broad northern accent and I'm a posh southerner. People always assume I'm rich and privileged and in some ways I am. In some I'm definitely not. I would bet people think we vote Tory when they look at us/hear me speak/see our jobs, and Labour when they see where we live/how poor we are. My father is a millionnaire. DH's father lives in one of the poorest parts of the county and is frequently out of work. Sometimes I think we (DH and I) are 'middle-class without any money'.

For what it's worth, we both read The Guardian.

Arisbottle Sun 05-May-13 09:32:09

I lack any kind of class and read them all, must be a confused twat.

Binkybix Sun 05-May-13 09:32:35

I agree with feckless dizzy. It's what you actually do/how you behave that counts, not what you talk about in theory.

As a general point, it seems odd to me to just read one paper. Wouldn't anyone interested in this sort of thing want a number of different takes and views on things?

Arisbottle Sun 05-May-13 09:33:42

Exactly Binky. If a story interest me I will read about if from a number of sources. I suspect many people do the same when you can read papers online.

RubyGates Sun 05-May-13 09:34:44

"the people I know who read the Mail are thick and bigoted, "


"and the Guardian readers are pretty good eggs. Who possibly do not create a shitload of wealth for the financial sector but they happily pay taxes, would happily pay more"


(And you don't even understand do you, why other decent citizens who are taxed until they squeak might not be able to pay more?
"just so unreasonable of them, not like us clever Guardian readers"

Binkybix Sun 05-May-13 09:37:52

Cross post! I don't read the papers as much as I'd like, probably because I walk to work now instead of commuting, but if I read about something online about a particular story I'd prob read Guardian and Telegraph etc. Online makes it a lot cheaper to do this!

seeker Sun 05-May-13 09:38:59

""poor people who need the state's help must be very stupid/ poorly educated..."
Add "and be lazy and feckless" and you have summed up the Daily Mail's view, surely, rather than the Guardian's?

Binkybix Sun 05-May-13 09:42:02

'and the Guardian readers are pretty good eggs. Who possibly do not create a shitload of wealth for the financial sector but they happily pay taxes, would happily pay more"

That's where our personal experiences differ - some very wealthy guardian readers I know avoid their income tax and plan to avoid inheritance tax, whilst saying in theory the rich should be taxed more, and thinking that view makes them morally superior. Just personal experience I know, but think it shows that you really can't generalise and should be suspicious of people who automatically claim the moral high ground!

I cannot stand The Guardian, to me it's so bias and anti Tory you cannot see the news in a balanced way at all. But all my lefty friends love it.

burberryqueen Sun 05-May-13 09:43:09

the people I know who read the Mail are thick and bigoted, the ones who read the Telegraph do it occasionally for a laugh or like the cricket, and the Guardian readers are pretty good eggs
my mum read the Mail and she was not "thick and bigoted" at all in fact she hated racism or anti-semitism. I think she liked the cartoons or the crosswords and the TV pages - actually reading the above statement makes me realise just how 'thick and bigoted' so many Guardian readers are in their smug superiority. With Ruby on this one.

StephaniePowers Sun 05-May-13 09:43:34

Rubygates - of course I understand that! I didn't say my friends could pay more, just that they feel the taxation system is weighted badly and can see that it would be reasonable for them to pay a higher rate.

It might mean a cheaper skiing holiday or cutting down on the old prosecco, but they'd do it!

StephaniePowers Sun 05-May-13 09:46:55

Well there you go - you know different people!
I only know a few Mail readers and I really dislike them. They're far more likely to come out with hateful drivel about Romanians or somesuch than anybody else I know. It's just a different sort of character.

A complicating issue is that the telegraph cryptic crossword is far superior than the Guardians. This causes us dilemmas....

Bonsoir Sun 05-May-13 09:54:50

No of course Guardian-reading lefties aren't morally superior. They are economically illiterate, that's all.

I don't read any papers. I am a left wing Higher rate tax payer though. I despair at what the Tories are doing to this country and after the recent local elections, worry about a Tory/UKIP coalition next general election. I'm alright under the Tories, maybe even better off but I don't like what they are doing to the most vulnerable members of society. A good society looks after the most vulnerable.

CloudsAndTrees Sun 05-May-13 09:57:59

YABVU to assume that a left leaning person on the same wage as a right leaning person is automatically morally superior.

It's easy to have liberal views when they make little difference to what you actually have to do and pay out in life.

In my experience of people who I know well enough to have political type conversations with, the champagne socialist types are all talk. They spin a great yarn about how much they care for others and how they are happy for their taxes to be spent on benefits etc, but they don't pay more than anyone else and they don't actually given up much time to benefit society.

I do a lot of voluntary work, which often involves people spending their own money to be able to help, and takes a lot of time. By far, the vast majority of the people I know that actually get off their arses to make a difference to people less fortunate than themselves are Tories.

The difference is that they very much want to be able to help others less fortunate, but they want to be able to choose how they do so without it being dictated to them by the government.

The guardian reader types just seem to have a lot to say about how other people should do things.

Bonsoir Sun 05-May-13 09:58:57

"A good society looks after the most vulnerable."

A good society first ensures it has enough money to pay for the collective services it wishes for its members.

Abra1d Sun 05-May-13 09:59:30

It's the sanctimoniousness of some (not all) Guardian readers that is the most amusing thing. I actually read the cookery and 'Life' articles in the Guardian most days, but anything by, say, Polly Toynbee makes me want to reach for a revolver.

burberryqueen Sun 05-May-13 10:02:12

ooh la Toynbee is unbearable - would rather read Amanda Platell any day!

Yes Polly Toynbee. She makes my my teeth itch.

seeker Sun 05-May-13 10:04:29

"Sanctimonious" in my experience tends to mean "forces me to think about things I would rather not think about"

Bonsoir Sun 05-May-13 10:07:37

How sanctimonious of you, seeker.

Does it ever cross your mind that other people have already thought about the subjects you are still struggling with, and have reached their own mature, data-driven conclusions?

FanjoForTheMammaries Sun 05-May-13 10:10:42

Yes sanctimonious could well mean 'chooses to act in a morally superior way to you' wink

FanjoForTheMammaries Sun 05-May-13 10:11:50

And 'mature data-driven decision' coming from a Tory tends to mean 'decision motivated purely by financial considerations' IMO wink

FanjoForTheMammaries Sun 05-May-13 10:13:13

Anyone who reads Amanda Platell without feeling murderous is a bit strange in my book

Bonsoir Sun 05-May-13 10:16:11

It is a good thing to take financial considerations into account before spending. It is the lefties who spend the future generations' income (not even inheritance) with wild abandon...

FanjoForTheMammaries Sun 05-May-13 10:17:10

This thread can never be anything but a slightly silly bunfight. Etween two sets of diametrically opposed people

FanjoForTheMammaries Sun 05-May-13 10:17:29

Nice typing, fanjo

burberryqueen Sun 05-May-13 10:17:30

lol oh I do feel murderous at Platell, who wouldn't, even the smug look on her vile chops - still Toynbee does make me want to stab someone too - I am all for equality you know!!

RubyGates Sun 05-May-13 10:24:10

As far as I can work out:
MC Left Wing Guardian readers will attack anyone who doesn't agree with their viewpoint by saying that they must be less intelligent . (But as they are looked after by the all-powerful State that's OK)

Lib Dem Centrists (Also often Grauniad subscribers) will claim that anyone who doesn't agree with them is less compassionate than they are.

Both will move towards blanket insults and ad-hominem attacks when their viewpoint is threatened.

Educated right-wingers are much more fun to bait debate with, they will generally stick to civilized debate methods, quote "factoids" and references and remain civil and scathing. Even when being quite clearly wrong wink

People who read and believe everything the Daily Fail tells them are no fun to debate with at all. It's like shooting fish in a barrell.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sun 05-May-13 10:28:22

What about WC left wingers, while you are stereotyping people?

RubyGates Sun 05-May-13 10:30:34

Hmmm, I'm not sure. I've never really had any on-line debate with WC left-wingers. I know seral right-wing WC people...

Does anyone know? I can only speak from my own experience.

I thought I'd managed to stereotype everyone. wink

Lazyjaney Sun 05-May-13 10:38:21

"It is much easier to have a 'touchy feely' view on the less fortunate members of society if you are sufficiently isolated from them"

And read a newspaper that says how marvellous and caring you are as you sip your latte after sending Miranda Nd Tristram off to the marvellous school in your leafy suburb.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sun 05-May-13 10:50:00

Anyway..I am none of the stereotypes so will feel free to continue being a leftie without fear of judgement wink

ByTheSea Sun 05-May-13 11:07:45

DH and I are high-rate-taxpaying Guardian readers who work in the financial services industry. We are not economically illiterate but cannot agree with Tory policies as they are wrong.

nennypops Sun 05-May-13 11:13:22

You only have to look at the comment columns on Mail Online to find some really horrible people. When you see people openly rejoicing at, for instance, the children of potential asylum seekers dying in dreadful circumstances, it can make you absolutely ashamed of the human race.

CloudsAndTrees Sun 05-May-13 11:15:50

The assumption that all Tories agree with the drivel that is written in the DM is wrong. Many right leaners are perfectly able to recognise crap when they see it.

catgirl1976 Sun 05-May-13 11:16:43

I read the Guardian, pay loads of tax and would be more than happy if it all went directly to someone with 9 kids and no job. They could even buy a big, fuck off flat screen tv with it if they liked. I don't live in Islington though

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Sun 05-May-13 11:17:31

Morally superior eh ? Dunno about that. Working class Tory would describe me, I suppose. I try to live my life as well as I can, treating people as I would like to be treated. Sun reader, too. Because it's quick, and a laugh. Get my news from Radio Four. Try to make up my own mind about things. Bit resentful that where I live (council estate) and the paper I glance at define me in some peoples opinions. I find that these assumptions seem more prevelant with Guardian types. Feel like I am dismissed with a metaphorical pat on the head. Would never vote UKIP, have voted LibDem, feeling a bit lost now,TBH.
I generally vote/act in my and my families best interests, basically because I cant afford not to. Would be nice to be able to act differently in the interests of fairness and justice -too busy getting by, though.

catgirl1976 Sun 05-May-13 11:20:44

Sun reader, too. Because it's quick, and a laugh.

Ah yes. The hilarity of the Hilsborough headlines. And the sexy shots of murdered Riva in a bikini. Side splitting.

I don't like the Sun. Sorry.

I did occasionaly buy the DM at the weekend to read Liz Jones' latest crazy ramblings, but after the horror of the Philpot front page, I just can't.

needaholidaynow Sun 05-May-13 11:21:18

I'm too stupid and low class for the Guardian.

But I sure am happy! grin And don't feel the need to live up to other's expectations of me.

needaholidaynow Sun 05-May-13 11:23:05

Plus the Guardian would bore the living day out of me.

Arisbottle Sun 05-May-13 11:23:38

I read the guardian, believe me no one is too low class to read it!

Viviennemary Sun 05-May-13 11:26:14

They certainly think they are. I am getting a bit fed up of champagne socialist types. Who always make sure they live in the best area and their children go to the best schools. They are one of the reasons people can't be bothered with Labour any longer.

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Sun 05-May-13 11:28:22


Casual and systematic anti semitism, a tax dodging offshoring parent company.......

No, I don't like the Guardian..........grin

DoTheStrand Sun 05-May-13 11:28:42

I am MC and read the Guardian and the Mail free online. I find them both very unsubtle. I also just voted LibDem in the local elections. (Well someone had to).

My dad was a Christian Socialist. He absolutely lived his beliefs and was a kind, thoughtful and v clever man. There are far too few people like that now (certainly not me). I think a lot of MC left leaning people nowadays do it for themselves - that feeling of altruism can be very powerful.

catgirl1976 Sun 05-May-13 11:29:08

Can we agree we both like 'Heat' magazine Things?

grin grin

Pantah630 Sun 05-May-13 11:40:07

The Daily Mail makes me scream in apoplexy whenever I'm asked to read any of it, never has so much shit been written made up I'm not keen on the Grauniad, too much Tory bashing for the sake of it, much prefer The Times thanks, which despite being a Murdoch paper still manages to stay more central than right, and has a bloody good super fiendish sudoku. I get my real news from Private Eye though grin

catgirl1976 Sun 05-May-13 11:41:37

DH reads The Times and I must admit, its puzzles are far superior to any other papers IMO

somewhereaclockisticking Sun 05-May-13 12:10:54

I'm with Dolcelatte

somewhereaclockisticking Sun 05-May-13 12:14:10

Did the DM make up the Philpots as well?????????

Startail Sun 05-May-13 12:19:58

Sadly some of us don't live in Islington, can't afford champagne and would be totally mad not to vote in our own, our parents and our children's best interests.

Although in the latter case Grove (and Ofsted) are such twats that one wonders?

Not that I think labour would be any better, the temptation to mess with and want control over education is irresistible. Local councils interfering and wanting to empire build rather than simply providing cheap centralised services has a lot to answer for.

Orwellian Sun 05-May-13 12:37:34

People like Polly Toynbee can afford to be morally superior except she isn't. She doesn't have to worry about competing with a Polish person who will work a 7 day week for pittance, she was born into a well-to-do family and will never have to even think about where her next pay packet will come from or how she will feed her kids or pay for a pension or housing.

It is very easy to pontificate and be morally superior from a place of safety and comfort.

The problem is that a lot of morally superior Guardian readers do not actually live in places like Toxteth or Bradford but tend to live in naice, middle class areas where they can wear their Public Enemy and Che Guevara t-shirts and talk about socialism and how evil Thatcher was without ever really having to analyse their opinions.

Besides, a lot of them turn out to be hypcorites, like Diane Abbott and Nick Clegg who end up shunning state schools in favour of private or religiously selective ones so their children won't have to mix with the riff raff that they berate other lesser mortals for not mixing with.

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Sun 05-May-13 12:51:08

Its a MN meeting of minds !

Can we agree we both like 'Heat' magazine Things?

Catgirl.......... blush grin

Orwellian Sun 05-May-13 12:53:24

Also, the Guardian newspaper is one of the biggest hypocrites out there. Whilst pontificating about tax avoidance, GMG (Guardian Media Group) has offshore subsidiaries in the tax haven known as the Caymen Islands, pays little to no corporation tax and most of it's columnists have their own Ltd Companies and bill for work done so they can pay themselves mostly in dividends (which is taxed far less than PAYE), all of which are perfectly legal but which, according to The Guardian, are morally repugnant.

Do as we say, not as we do....


FoundAChopinLizt Sun 05-May-13 12:56:04

Reading a newspaper cannot make anyone morally superior.The only way to demonstrate morals is through action. Having worthy thoughts doesn't change anything.

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Sun 05-May-13 12:57:43

Do as we say, not as we do....

Should be on the masthead of the Guardian........grin

Followed by........*Because we know whats best for you*

Lweji Sun 05-May-13 13:00:56

I have ended up being an online Telegraph reader because I think both their cartoonists are far superior to others. smile

I am definitely not right wing, and many people who comment on their news are not rabid right wingers either.

quesadilla Sun 05-May-13 13:01:37

There's a lot of sweeping statements being made here on both sides but I think ruby is onto something. And I speak as someone brought up by Guardian reading, centre-left chattering class types and who has many among her friends. I am centre left in my basic political make-up too.

My problem - if it is a problem - with Guardian readers is exemplified by this post. It's that some - not all - of these people genuinely believe themselves to be morally superior just because they are on the left. They may be more compassionate than rabid, foaming at the mouth UKIP supporters but often they assume that anyone who supports free market economic policies, for example, does so out of pure greed. In fact there are plenty if coherent arguments in favour of liberal economic policies (I happen to be in favour of a mixed economy) but I don't automatically assume that someone who favours privatisation in industry is doing so in order to rape and pillage the economy.

This government has hive too far in cutting public services,IMHO, but the way that many of my Grauniad reading friends approached this was a knee jerk assumption that any approach to scale back on spending was automatically evil. There's an unwillingness even to have a debate or to admit to any possibility that some benefits needed to be cut. Ditto with Thatcher's death. I think she did more harm than good but the way some parts of this constituency reacted you would think she was Pol Pot.

I don't hang out with a lot of Telegraph readers so maybe they are just as intransigent and bigoted about the left - I don't know. But I do feel that there's a sanctimoniousness and a kneejerk quality about parts of the left which puts me off a set of views I would otherwise embrace.

PickledLiver Sun 05-May-13 13:11:40

I didn't realise by ticking a box on a ballot paper I was defining my personality and self to some weirdo with an agenda.

Salbertina Sun 05-May-13 13:13:59

Quesadilla, absolutely! Was brought up by similar somewhat sanctimonious Grauniad-reading parents myself. Definite tendency to think that the left has an automatic monopoly on caring, charity, public service provision etc. Which is absolute bollocks, imho, most people of most political persuasion value such things. It's in how they're provided that there's the difference.

Has Op come back --from typing up her article--yet?

ComposHat Sun 05-May-13 13:52:04

Nope not typing up any article, honest guv.

My sleep patterns are ballsed up so I've only just awoken.

The title in my thread was probably ill thought out, but it was a response to a whole bunch of lefty bashing on one of the UKIP threads, where the assumption being made was that caring about others less fortunate that you and being cncerned with anything than your own economic wellbeing was 'manby pambu' or 'pie in the sky'

Well I am quite happy to be called a 'bleeding heart lefty' if the equivalent is to only care what happens to me and mine.

I wish I'd been more measured in my approach as I seem to have started an unseemly bun fight.

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Sun 05-May-13 14:12:11

"I seem to have started an unseemly bun fight."

Whoever would have thought that might happen...wink

Well I am quite happy to be called a 'bleeding heart lefty' if the equivalent is to only care what happens to me and mine.

^this. I've almost forgiven you for wearing Clarks shoes.

motherinferior Sun 05-May-13 14:35:29

I don't just read the Guardian, I've written for it too.grin

But I am very taken aback by the characterisation of my distinctly crummy corner of Sarfeast Lunnon as 'leafy'- someone ought to let the winos' hostel on the corner know - or my kids' (local and state) schools as middle-class ghettos. Perhaps some of you should refresh your stereotypes a bit?

Oh and although I am now a hack I've worked extensively in the voluntary sector, and Mr Inferior is a bit of a key player in it too.

WafflyVersatile Sun 05-May-13 14:36:08

The Guardian left wing, lol.

Socialism is left wing. Communism is left wing. The Guardian is not left wing. Nor is the Labour party, in case you were wondering. They are just slightly less cravenly right wing than the Tories.

motherinferior Sun 05-May-13 14:36:25

Mind you journalists are considered even lower than liberal lefties on MN...

CloudsAndTrees Sun 05-May-13 14:56:21

a whole bunch of lefty bashing on one of the UKIP threads, where the assumption being made was that caring about others less fortunate that you and being cncerned with anything than your own economic wellbeing was 'mamby pambu' or 'pie in the sky

That assumption does get made. But there is also the very prevalent assumption that if you dare to vote Tory you couldn't possibly care about what happens to anyone else and you are automatically a self serving bigot.

Both assumptions are as inaccurate as each other.

Dawndonna Sun 05-May-13 15:03:43

Being serious for a second, Compos there are some tories on here that really do care, although they're perhaps a little misguided. wink I'm even friendly and on first name terms with one or two of them! However, they're not the ones that throw the daft terms around, their arguments tend to be measured and respectful.
There's even one up there!
<waves at Clouds> grin

caroldecker Sun 05-May-13 15:07:31

from Yes Minister:

Hacker: Don't tell me about the press. I know exactly who reads the papers: the Daily Mirror is read by people who think they run the country; The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country; The Times is read by people who actually do run the country; the Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the country; the Financial Times is read by people who own the country; The Morning Star is read by people who think the country ought to be run by another country; and The Daily Telegraph is read by people who think it is.
Sir Humphrey: Prime Minister, what about the people who read The Sun?
Bernard: Sun readers don't care who runs the country, as long as she's got big tits.

Salbertina Sun 05-May-13 15:09:37

I think it's the somewhat ridiculous assumption in the OP that if one isn't left-leaning/Guardian-reading, one is what? .. UKIP??

Thanks for coming back OP and clarifying your view - i guess UKIP's success in the elections is getting to people!

Salbertina Sun 05-May-13 15:12:11

Carol grin i'd forgotten that! Oh for the heady days of political satire on mainstream tv- Spitting Image as well as Yes Minister

Springdiva Sun 05-May-13 15:29:07

My DM and DMIL bought the DM, loved the puzzles and small crossword.

Lazyjaney Sun 05-May-13 17:27:50

"but it was a response to a whole bunch of lefty bashing on one of the UKIP threads, where the assumption being made was that caring about others less fortunate that you and being cncerned with anything than your own economic wellbeing was 'manby pambu' or 'pie in the sky"

Most of the lefty bashing on all the various UKIP threads was self inflicted, as they generally kicked off with the view that everyone who voted for UKIP was a racist and/or a xenophobe.

The main issue I have with lefty "caring" is the wish to care for every one and everything, but an extreme unwillingness to face up to the "where is the money going to come from" and " dealing with cheats" issues.

The main problem I have with righty "caring" is that, while they are clearer on how much money there is, it typically comes with strings attached to those with commercial power and too little redress.

IMO both ends of the spectrum are as judgemental as each other, as they both believe deeply in their own dogma and that They Are Right.

ComposHat Sun 05-May-13 17:40:03


I hope the daily mail crossword isn't like the rest of the paper.

Clues Across

1. German Leader, glorious saviour of the Aryan race (5.6)

2. Large bird, owned by the Queen and eaten by filthy Polish migrants (4)


caroldecker Sun 05-May-13 18:12:08

The main issue with the 'Left' is a belief that people have no obligation or ability to help themselves. Why should, for example, all schools be run by the govt, why not give parents the money and let them choose the education provider of their choice - even home schooling?
The view of the left is parents cannot be trusted to do the right thing. An example was at my DS's (private) primary school, the Bursar argued that the reason packed lunches were not allowed was that parent's could not be trusted to provide sufficient correct nutrition.

seeker Mon 06-May-13 10:53:04

"The main issue with the 'Left' is a belief that people have no obligation or ability to help themselves"

One of the main issues with the "Right" is that they say/believe things like this.

caroldecker Mon 06-May-13 10:58:15

Sorry Seeker - are you saying people have no obligation to help themselves to the best of their ability?

TheBigJessie Mon 06-May-13 11:18:57

A complicating issue is that the telegraph cryptic crossword is far superior than the Guardians. This causes us dilemmas....

You mean there's harder stuff out there than Araucaria? Sodding hell! This makes me feel even worse about being unable to get a single Araucaria clue.

seeker Mon 06-May-13 11:20:04

No. I'm saying that I have never met a member of the "Left" who thought they didn't!

CloudsAndTrees Mon 06-May-13 11:36:32

grin waves at Dawn

caroldecker Mon 06-May-13 11:37:15

i'ts repeated on here daily - recommendations to only work 16hrs, people who voluntarily limit their hours and get benefit etc

CloudsAndTrees Mon 06-May-13 11:38:45

Really seeker? I sometimes find that members of the left make excuses too easily. That's not to say that those people don't think they have to take responsibility, just that sometimes they think their responsibility doesn't need to amount to much.

"I don't hang out with a lot of Telegraph readers so maybe they are just as intransigent and bigoted about the left - I don't know"
I'm a middle class Lefty but I read the Daily Telegraph, what does that make me?

seeker Mon 06-May-13 11:48:58

"i'ts repeated on here daily - recommendations to only work 16hrs, people who voluntarily limit their hours and get benefit etc"

People do this, obviously. Have you any examples of how it's left wingers who do it?

CloudsAndTrees Mon 06-May-13 11:56:41

Doesn't the very nature of that statement indicate left lying beliefs?

Any Tory with half an ounce of conviction in their beliefs wouldn't be found recommending ways to get the most possible out of the state.

seeker Mon 06-May-13 12:11:42

"Any Tory with half an ounce of conviction in their beliefs wouldn't be found recommending ways to get the most possible out of the state."

Really? So tax accountants are all left wingers?

CloudsAndTrees Mon 06-May-13 12:14:30

Technically, people who try to avoid tax are not taking from the state. They are just trying to give as little as they can. Theres a significant difference. And seeing as a traditional Tory believes in low taxes, then trying to avoid high taxes is completely in line with what they are supposed to believe.

Salbertina Mon 06-May-13 12:14:58

SB, like you i think people are far less easy to categorise and far less polarised than OP suggests. I am an avid reader of the Times, Guardian and occasionally the Telegraph even the Mail online if desperate for gossip ; i admire Cameron but would never vote Tory; despite being an ex-public sector worker, i support the coalition's cuts.. What does that make me?! A realist grin

seeker Mon 06-May-13 12:21:14

"Technically, people who try to avoid tax are not taking from the state. They are just trying to give as little as they can. Theres a significant difference. And seeing as a traditional Tory believes in low taxes, then trying to avoid high taxes is completely in line with what they are supposed to believe."

Absolutely no difference morally at all.

CloudsAndTrees Mon 06-May-13 12:34:56

Of course there's a difference morally! And either way, morally want what we were talking about.

But morally, someone who is in the position of trying to minimise their tax bill is probably already paing a significant amount into the pot, and working enough to be able to do so.

Someone who is in the position of planning their working hours based around how much money they can get from the governement for doing as little as possible is probably not paying very much into the pot and is working out how to pay even less at the same time as taking more out.

If you think they are the same morally, then I would question your morals tbh.

RubyGates Mon 06-May-13 12:43:48

If the left are so against tax evasion/avoidance why were the loopholes not closed while they were in power? Could it be because the government, Mr Bliar and all his cronies were busy squirrelling away their illegal gains in off-shore tax havens?

Surely not! Not those morally superior lefties shock

JakeBullet Mon 06-May-13 13:48:11

Tbh Ruby, I would argue that Blair and co were NEVER left wing....but that's a whole other debate!

Lots of things they COULD have done and didn't.

UrbaneLandlord Mon 06-May-13 14:01:08

The greater the level of taxation then the bigger the state and the more the general population is infantilised.

The historical failing of the left is that they don't recognise that it is self-accomplishment not equality that makes people happy.

caroldecker Mon 06-May-13 14:08:41

Also equality of achievement is impossible without bringing everyone to the bottom - need to achieve equality of opportunity, which most of the left appear to believe is unfair

Arisbottle Mon 06-May-13 14:20:23

I was from the bottom of the pile, I like to think I was dragged up rather than forcing everyone down to me level .

seeker Mon 06-May-13 14:37:31

"But morally, someone who is in the position of trying to minimise their tax bill is probably already paing a significant amount into the pot, and working enough to be able to do so.

Someone who is in the position of planning their working hours based around how much money they can get from the governement for doing as little as possible is probably not paying very much into the pot and is working out how to pay even less at the same time as taking more out.

If you think they are the same morally, then I would question your morals tbh."

But why is the second person a left winger?

seeker Mon 06-May-13 14:38:24

"Also equality of achievement is impossible without bringing everyone to the bottom - need to achieve equality of opportunity, which most of the left appear to believe is unfair"

Where on earth did you get that idea from??

KatoPotato Mon 06-May-13 14:39:10

YABU (if I can decode the actual statement) I buy the telegraph when they offer a free bottle of water...

miffybun73 Mon 06-May-13 14:43:25

YANBU smile

MrsDeVere Mon 06-May-13 14:49:44

A few posts down on a loooong thread and we got to the 'if you actually lived with these people you would vote UKIP too'


Why do people on MN think they can talk for me? I love MN, I really do. I know that its not all MC yummy mummies and its full of lovely people.

BUT the single thing that pisses me off most of all is poster who DO NOT live 'among those people' who are isolated from benefit claimants, estates and other unpleasantness, lecturing the rest of us on what its like AND being an apologist for selfish, bigoted right wingers.

Because what you are really saying is that the wc are thick. Too thick to see through UK and the BNP and incapable of critical thought.

Yes, yes I know the thread has probably moved on a lot from page one but I don't care.

I frickin hate this line of reasoning. I see it all the time on here.
Stop patronising me.


caroldecker Mon 06-May-13 15:10:01

Why are all right wingers selfish and bigoted - Do you think it is impossible to believe that a small state and capitalism is better for everyone?

Compare and contrast life in 1977 and life in 2013, at any level of UK society and we are better off now

seeker Mon 06-May-13 15:15:37

Not all right wingers are selfish and bigoted- who said they were?

MrsDeVere Mon 06-May-13 15:45:39


It is stated that if you really knew what is was like to live amoungst the proles you would be voting for far right parties like UKIP and the BNP too.

I called bullshit.

You trying to tell me that UKIP and BNP are NOT selfish and bigoted?
Have you seen their ideas on disability, immigration, women?

Well possibly not when it comes to UKIP because their stuff about disability was swiftly removed from their website after the election.

Springdiva Mon 06-May-13 15:57:35

The problem with the daily Telegraph is it's too big - about time they jumped on the bandwagon with a diddy version.

Nowadays I hardly ever read papers as there is so much online.

UrbaneLandlord Mon 06-May-13 16:03:38

Err, MrsDeVere, the only person who's said "...the wc are thick..." is, err... YOU!

MrsDeVere Mon 06-May-13 16:20:43

errr Ubane I haven't said the working classes are thick.
You seem confused.

'It is much easier to have a 'touchy feely' view on the less fortunate members of society if you are sufficiently isolated from them'.



TheBigJessie Mon 06-May-13 16:25:00

I completely agree with MrsDeVere. She is entirely right, and I feel ashamed that although I've noticed the attitude before, I've never been able to put it into words myself.

Jessie, working class, but knows long words.

caroldecker Mon 06-May-13 16:32:05

I am not sure where I stand on the immigration argument, but limiting immigration is not necessarily selfish or bigoted. For example, the people who benefited the most from Polish plumbers were the rich who used them and the people who suffered the most were the poor, due to additional strain on housing, schools and NHS.

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Mon 06-May-13 16:41:49

Before this turns into a "I'm sooooo much more working class than you" type pissing contest, I would just like to remind Mrs DeVere that she does not represent the whole of the working class, or indeed anyone but herself. She certainly does not represent my views. Although I did not vote for UKIP in my local elections, I would be intrigued to hear her views on why so many of "the proles" did ? In a predominantly working class ward, populated in the main by council tenants? Llike me.

MrsDeVere Mon 06-May-13 16:54:31

And may I remind you that you do not represent the whole of the working class or indeed anyone but yourself.

I don't need to justify myself or lay out my wc credentials and I never have. Let alone enter into a pissing contest.

Why do so many proles vote for labour? Even ones who live in council?

Why have so many not been suckered into believing the propaganda about disabled people and benefit claimants? Why do so many of us not blame the immigrants for everything from waiting times in A&E to the lack of pork pies in Morrisons?

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Mon 06-May-13 17:05:06

So - no answer to my question then. smile

And I'm not popping up on every thread which mentions the working classes, and hand wringing about people patronising me.

MrsDeVere Mon 06-May-13 17:09:20

How could your question be answered with a 'no'?

You: 'I would be intrigued to hear her views on why so many of "the proles" did ? In a predominantly working class ward, populated in the main by council tenants? Llike me'.

Me: No.


Handwringing? You forgot 'getting your knickers in a twist' and 'calm down dear'

The favourite phrases of those who just want to shut people up who don't agree with them.

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Mon 06-May-13 17:22:01

Bit odd. I asked for your views on why so many people who could be considered working class voted for UKIP.

" Although I did not vote for UKIP in my local elections, I would be intrigued to hear her views on why so many of "the proles" did ? "

What was confused

"Calm down dear" remark so obviously a very cheap

So you haven't been popping up on threads, in your capacity of the voice of the people, complaining that you have been patronised.grin

Dawndonna Mon 06-May-13 17:34:55

When faced with empirical evidence on another thread, you were rude to me. You then ignored the fact that you were rude to me. But you're not popping up on threads being rude to people who disagree with you, are you?
Ooo, hang on, I forgot the p.a. smile there.

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Mon 06-May-13 20:10:40

Dawndonna, I was not rude to you. You chose to be offended,two different things. You posted a link to " myths about the EU debunked", which rather hilariously was from The European Commissions own website. You will forgive me for not regarding this as "empirical evidence". If you choose to regard it as such, well.. hmm

I then suggested that you might like to reassure us about GM foods safety by linking to Monsantos website.

How is this rude, please?

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Mon 06-May-13 20:18:04

I feel rather sorry for the OP.
It's a narrow old life if the all the glory and interest of human complexity end up reduced to a world view like this. Sad.

Dawndonna Mon 06-May-13 20:18:46

Where else is it going to come from, you think they'd publish lies?

EmmyFlavs Mon 06-May-13 20:23:17

The Guardian has adopted the stereo typical Leftist position of 'The enemy of the Enemy is my friend'' Lazy thinkers and self loathing, they make George Galloway seem Pro Israel and Moderate!!!!!

Julian Assange is the Patron Saint of the Guardian ( along with any mad middle eastern Despot past and present), I rest my case!!

Flush Please

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Mon 06-May-13 20:30:32

"Where else is it going to come from, you think they'd publish lies?

Oh no. Absolutely not. Never. I'm sure you believe everything that, say,this government publishes online. grin

And would you now like to retract your accusation of "rudeness". confused

HamletsSister Mon 06-May-13 20:34:51

And what of those of us (the majority, I suspect) who are not stereotypical? Who mix and much views and don't agree blindly with any political party or any newspaper. Who make decisions based on our own needs AND the needs of our neighbours.

<walks away>

Dawndonna Mon 06-May-13 20:34:53

I honestly did think you were being rude. I still think you're being somewhat patronising. That may be the trouble with being online.

EmmyFlavs Mon 06-May-13 20:39:27

I adore your naivety DawnDonna, I want to be in your world, invite me in, quick, we can drink koolAid together!!!!

Disclaimer: All comments by me should be considered friendly, not rude!!!

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Mon 06-May-13 20:39:35

Then I apologise. It was not my intention to be rude to you. I think you may be right about the perils of online debate. blush

Dawndonna Mon 06-May-13 21:04:13

Thank you Things that's kind and I appreciate it, and no, I'm not being sarcastic. thanks

IfNotNowThenWhen Mon 06-May-13 21:18:37 can be a Guardian reading leftie, and also be working class, Northern, and Poor.
I don't understand the assumption that all left wing types are middle class and wealthy. We are not.

IfNotNowThenWhen Mon 06-May-13 21:22:29

Didn't read 2nd page, but basically, what Mrs D said.

Dawndonna Mon 06-May-13 21:37:39

Emmy Thanks for calling this 54 year old ex lecturer naive. You are welcome to take part in my Guardian reading world. It involves working an eighteen hour day looking after an ex philosophy lecturer who can no longer walk and who has serious prostate problems at the age of 42, because somebody ballsed up the drugs for the original infection. We have four children, three of them with ASDs and one is a wheelchair user. I can no longer work because the government took away my respite care. We have some savings, so the only benefits I receive are child benefit and the princely carer's allowance the government deem sufficient earnings for somebody like me.

starlady Mon 06-May-13 21:39:25

OK seriously, the OP - she was taken the piss, right? She sounds like a 6th former trying to start a heated debate.

My issue with the kind of left-wingers 'Guardian-types'the OP describes is the ones I have met are such bloody hypocrites. One friend of mine was moaning the other day about the awful Daily Mail type opinions of her neighbours - but ironically she sends her kids to one of the most exclusive public schools there are. And in fact most of my friends who send their kids privately profess to be left wing.

FWIW I read the Mail (and The Times, and on occasions The Guardianand Indie) - I don't subscribe to the vast majority of the views The Mail espouses. My DH is mixed race, I'm the daughter of an immigrant, I have also voted labour all of my life, and went to state schools and send my kids to state schools. I respect those who walk the walk, rather than just talk the talk.

motherinferior Tue 07-May-13 09:49:31

Oh, and yet again the stereotype of the rich hypocritical champagne-swiggers. I'm getting a touch tired - and indeed envious - of them, frankly. Speaking as a card-carrying lefty feminist who lives in Grime and sends her kids to not particularly swish (though perfectly good) schools.

seeker Tue 07-May-13 10:00:42

<pours motherinferior a glass of Aldi sparking white to quaff>

Or is it swigging us champagne socialists do?

EmmyFlavs Tue 07-May-13 11:52:55

An ex lecturer who believes what she reads on biased websites? Well, enough said then really! I of course, could list the problems facing my family however, that would make me somewhat crass would it not?

EmmyFlavs Tue 07-May-13 11:58:10

Never understood what a Socialist was in a Global Capital Market, seems to me that they want the hard working enemy ( The Middle Classes apparently) to redistribute their wealth to the poor!!! I asked my Husband when he finally arrived home from the City having put in a 13 hour day, what he felt about this 'ideal' I will not post the reply here, some might find it offensive!!

Socialism should be reserved for the young idealist pre-career pre-family and under graduate!! When they grow up, they should realise that they themselves don't want to share their wealth, and they in turn realise that actually Stalin was not a 'Comrade' but a nasty piece of work, and that the floods of people risking their lives to escape Fidel Castro's Cuba aren't fond of him either!!!

motherinferior Tue 07-May-13 13:54:51

Er...thank you for that incisive political world-view confused

Dawndonna Tue 07-May-13 14:12:24

No Emmy This:
I of course, could list the problems facing my family however, that would make me somewhat crass would it not? is what made you crass.

Oh, Goooooooooooooood.

EmmyFlavs Tue 07-May-13 14:58:45

Is what what what? Oh never mind!!! Whoever suggested that a few thousand hormonal women all thrown together in a Forum would be ''Madness'' was clearly wrong!!!!!!!! We can do this!!!!

EmmyFlavs Tue 07-May-13 15:03:09

Ohhh, you are so terribly welcome, I would be interested to know which part you disagreed with? Stalin being a nasty man? Ummm, Fidel Castros Cuba? people killing themselves trying to escape the regime? Socialists Manifesto where it is stated ' The Bourgeois should re distribute their wealth to the Proletarians '' or maybe that my Husband doesnt work 13 hours a day!! I'm confused with your post!!! But again, yw

Hullygully Tue 07-May-13 15:03:58

Haven't rtft

wholeheartedly agree

TheOriginalSteamingNit Tue 07-May-13 15:09:16


We're just nicer grin

bobbywash Tue 07-May-13 15:12:00

to the OP if you're a guardian reading etc then you do feel morally superior with no justification whatsoever, however if you're a DM/Torygraph reader then you also feel morally superior with no justification whatsoever.

Moral superiority comes from within, whether it has any merits or not is irrelevant to those who profess to have it. TBH I think the true meaning of it (moral superiority) has been lost, and replaced with smugness.

Binkybix Tue 07-May-13 15:32:18

I don't think people are implying that all those who are left wing are wealthy are they? They are addressing the thread which specifically talks about 'champagne socialist, Islington' mafia' that is certainly the 'group' that I've posted about, not everyone who is left wing.

EmmyFlavs Tue 07-May-13 15:43:00

Has the OP actually responded?

ComposHat Tue 07-May-13 16:03:52

I have a few pages ago. Realised I'd started a bun fight and hoped it would fizzle out.

motherinferior Tue 07-May-13 16:09:26

The thread is about 'Guardian reading middle-class lefties' according to its title. Of which I am one.

Hullygully Tue 07-May-13 16:11:26

I can feel a thread coming on...

Moknicker Tue 07-May-13 16:15:43

OP, I read the Guardian, Telegraph and the Daily Mail - i guess that makes me a morally superior, rabid, self interested ... and any other adjective you want to throw in.


Chandon Tue 07-May-13 16:17:46

The only problem with guardian reading middle class lefties is tat hey can be a bit smug, on the whole they are largely inoffensive, IMO!

As to the self seeking Tory voters, most tory voters I know ( almost all the Ils) actually have very strong ideological ideas about a " small state" and "personal liberty" and personal responsibility.

SIL for example has never claimed child benefit, as she does not want to use up "benegits" she does not need, so there is more for those who do.

To say all Tpries are heartless and selfish is a bit silly IMO, and it stops you from understanding how people think.

Saying that, I am not too keen on the Tories, or the Telegraph etc. myself!!

Chandon Tue 07-May-13 16:18:49

Benegits, now there is a Freudian slip....must have been reading the Mail again blush

Dededum Tue 07-May-13 16:38:59

Newspaper reading is on the decline, the circulation of the Guardian is under 200,000, whilst the Daily Mail is still over 2 million. Whether or not one reads the Guardian or not, the alternatives are dire. The Guardian provides left wing comment as part of its fare, but the actual news sections of the paper are not imbibed with ideological claptrap. As someone interested in facts and opinions I find any reading of the DM deeply depressing and the Torygraph and Times editorially skewed.

There aren't many of us Guardian readers left, so why do the right and a the stupid (not necessary the same) get their knickers in twist. Life is complicated, confusing and impossible predict. I find the Guardian a more accurate portrayal.

Dededum Tue 07-May-13 16:56:01

Figures slightly wrong - guardian 204,000 daily mail 1.8 million.

PosyNarker Tue 07-May-13 17:01:53

YWNBU if those who might be considered 'champagne socialists' put their money where their mouth is. I am sure some do, but I've encountered many that don't.

I am also very wary of those who speak of higher earners paying yet more when they are so far into the upper earnings eschelons as to be completely removed from the lower end of that spectrum. (Yes, left wing popstars, actors etc. I'm looking at you.)

I'm fairly centrist, slightly left of social issues, slightly to the right on economic. I've actually ditched many of my grauniad reading 'old friends' because we can no-longer engage in civilised debate, by which I mean ad hominem, patronising guilt trips and attacks have become their go to tools for political discourse.

Of course the plural of anecdote is not data, but that's my experience.

Great post Dededum.
I've been missing the Guardian a lot, since we've moved back to Italy. We haven't got anything like the DM here, but even La Repubblica is not as authoritative or interesting as the Guardian.

And I am a bit fed up of this general portrayal of left wing people, either drinking champagne or not contributing to the wealth of a nation. Yawn.

Dededum Tue 07-May-13 20:50:01

Ah yes and if we send our kids to private school (I don't but am thinking about it) earn lots of money, don't give it away, or live in a 'posh area' with good state schools we are called hypocrites who would be money grabbing, dislike immigration, begrudge receipents of welfare etc...if we didn't earn much money, lived in a poorer area and our kids had to go to sink schools.

Maybe.... But then my education has enabled me to question the stereotypes and misinformation peddled by the mainstream media. I read the guardian because I want to think.... Though I really don't like the family section it really gets my heckles up.

I am a Guardian reader, and was brought up soft-left liberal, and probably still am on the whole.

The Guardian's - and for that matter the BBC's - mistake is to assume that everyone is inherently reasonable, and if you seek to engage any person in respectful dialogue, everything will come right. That is not a parody. It is the very essence of liberalism as a philosophy.

Those of us who (like me) have lived next door to neighbours who abuse animals, get drunk and fight, get drunk and piss in the front garden, abuse their position as council tenants by wrecking the house, dealing drugs from it and taking in sub-tenants, who listen to loud music both day and night, burgle the neighbours, and leer through the window at DW when she breastfed know perfectly well that such people are generally too wrecked or hungover and probably ill-brought up to be reasonable. We know that a respectful approach for grown-up dialogue with such people will be met at best with a sneer, and perhaps a fist. We do not wish to be told that these people need help and understanding and that we ourselves deserve none. Nor do we wish to be told they have rights when ours, ie, to live in peace and quiet aren't enforced by the authorities. We know that such people need a kick up the backside or perhaps a spell in prison or, at very least, removal to a street full of people just like them, because that sort of treatment is the only thing they respond to. Unlike the Guardian, papers like the Daily Mail at least pretend to know this perfectly well.

So while I have no love for the Mail, I do get enraged by the formulaic approach to social matters one finds in the Guardian, informed as it is purely by theory and absolutely no experience except perhaps second or third hand through treatises written by second-rate academics from lesser-known universities.

Binkybix Wed 08-May-13 08:10:06

To be fair dedendum, the example I used was someone who actively tries to avoid his taxes whilst thinking he is morally superior, that's why I called him a hypocrite. I don't think they would be right wing if they had not grown up in a leafy north London suburb and had different parents, but I think it's hard to argue that how he acts vs how he talks is not hypocritical.

Likewise, I think he uses the Guardian to supply all his beliefs and opinions unquestioningly because they confirm what he already thinks - I don't think that's thinking, any more than someone who does the same with a different paper.

Obvs I don't think this applies to all left wing people, but just shared my first hand experience - I may have vented a little because I was on the receiving end of a lot of his lectures a week or so ago! I am prob centre left btw so not rabid right wing!

FasterStronger Wed 08-May-13 08:39:47

to look at someone's politics and choice of newspaper is a way too simplistic way to look at who is morally superior.

I think you need to make a large personal sacrifice with life long effects for people outside your family to be morally superior - and voting and buying a paper comes nowhere near to doing that. and TBH if you make that sort of sacrifice you are probably more interested in helping others than deciding who is more morally superior.

EmmyFlavs Wed 08-May-13 17:07:18

The Guardian is a leftist Newspaper, end of!!!

thebody Wed 08-May-13 17:13:19

I am just so amazed that people still waste money on newspapers so they can obviously read ones own political views and agree.

What the fuck is the point of that?

What a waste of time.

EmmyFlavs Wed 08-May-13 19:39:04

The Body!!! LOL

Dawndonna Wed 08-May-13 22:19:05

No more amazed than some of us are at people who come onto a thread obviously designed for people other than them to have a pathetic pop.
Ah well, each to their own.
Personally, I go to the Guardian so that I don't have to read hysterical nonsense. I like my journalism well thought out, accurate and with words that contain more than two syllables.

Lazyjaney Wed 08-May-13 22:50:47

"Personally, I go to the Guardian so that I don't have to read hysterical nonsense. I like my journalism well thought out, accurate and with words that contain more than two syllables"

The option are not just the Grauniad or 1 syllable hysterical nonsense you know!

BTW that nice lefty Guardian has a nice righty tax avoiding capitalist ownership structure. Probably mirrors it's naice MC reader base, really...

Arisbottle Wed 08-May-13 22:57:10

I agree Lazey, I find intelligent journalism is all the papers I read, bar the DM,

EmmyFlavs Thu 09-May-13 01:41:06

The paper's readership is generally on the mainstream left of British political opinion: a MORI poll taken between April and June 2000 showed that 80% of Guardian readers were Labour Party voters;[95] according to another MORI poll taken in 2005, 48% of Guardian readers were Labour voters and 34% Liberal Democrat voters.[96] The newspaper's reputation as a platform for liberal and left-wing opinions has led to the use of the epithet "Guardian reader" as a label for middle-class people holding such views,[97][98] or sometimes as a negative stereotype of such people as middle class, earnest and politically correct.

A safe steretyping regarding Guarian readers I think.

Mimishimi Thu 09-May-13 02:37:36

No, because the increased taxes they advocate don't actually go to help those in need ( or very little of it does) but to line the pockets of feckless social do-gooders who know nothing of business or the world outside the gilded 'leadership' ideals they've been brought up with in their tony private schools. The rest goes to military spending. The paper is ostensibly antiwar whilst skirting around and sometimes supportingthe central "big lies" that have brought us to that immoral 9/11 and 7/7. The Daily Mail is actually quite informative if you treat it as a "read between the lines" activity..I do think it's intellectually superior to gather information from a multitude of sources, regardless of their political bent. Moral superiority comes with what you do with that information, not the mere and dubious virtue of reading the 'naice' newspapers.

Springdiva Thu 09-May-13 03:12:26

This do-gooder attitude is a bit scary imo.

I mean the government debt is still rising, all these supposedly cruel cuts have not stopped the debt rising, they are only stopping the debt rising as fast, as it stands we are still landing our DCs with a horrendous burden which will destroy their quality of life, and Britain as we know it.

Yet, despite this, we have all these lefties berating the government and wanting more services and less cuts.

We need loads more cuts so that the debt is removed, then we can be benevolent lefties. But you all seem hell bent on destruction.

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