to finally be able to say there has been too much immigration

(507 Posts)
moogy1a Fri 03-May-13 08:29:59

Now that UKIP have made massive gains in local elections,conservatives stating that major changes need to be made and labour admit that they made a big mistake in having an almost open door policy can I finally say this in public without the hysterical accusations of being racist?

MumnGran Fri 03-May-13 08:33:22

<donning flak jacket>
I don't think so ...... but you might want to keep a bottle of flame retardant handy.

Emsmaman Fri 03-May-13 08:34:07


timidviper Fri 03-May-13 08:34:19

Probably not. There are some topics where the silent majority are silent because they will always be shouted down if they dare to voice an opinion. I think immigration is probably one of them.

NynaevesSister Fri 03-May-13 08:34:33

No you can't. You can say that you think some immigration policies didn't work in your opinion and back that up with actual facts.

But no one means that immigration is too lax. They mean that it is too lax about all those Eastern Europeans, Roma, Africans and Asians.

Somehow all those thousands of white people from Australia, NZ, Canada aren't an issue ....

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 03-May-13 08:35:23

Can accuse you non-hysterically if you like?

Tis a sad day when loads of people vote for such a bigoted hate fuelled party.

It's almost enough to push me to vote for independence

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 03-May-13 08:35:44

Must feel great to be an immigrant watching the news today.

gordyslovesheep Fri 03-May-13 08:36:19

well yes you would be since there hasn't been an open door policy and I don't think there has been too much immigration either

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 03-May-13 08:36:32

Nynaeves you are right on the money there.

Paleodad Fri 03-May-13 08:38:46

You're not racist, just wrong.
There never was an "open door policy", and anyway immigration can only benefit this country, economically and culturally.

flatpackhamster Fri 03-May-13 08:40:43


No you can't. You can say that you think some immigration policies didn't work in your opinion and back that up with actual facts.

But no one means that immigration is too lax. They mean that it is too lax about all those Eastern Europeans, Roma, Africans and Asians.

Somehow all those thousands of white people from Australia, NZ, Canada aren't an issue ....

Given the net migration figures to those places, it isn't. 2 million Britons left in the last 10 years, mostly for those three destinations.

flatpackhamster Fri 03-May-13 08:43:08

Paleodad Fri 03-May-13 08:38:46

You're not racist, just wrong.
There never was an "open door policy", and anyway immigration can only benefit this country, economically and culturally. Take a look at the chart at the bottom of this ONS page.

Migration bumping along at a low level right up until Labour get in to power, when it doubles. If that isn't an 'open door policy' then what is?

BabsAndTheRu Fri 03-May-13 08:43:39

Totally agree with Fanjo, found watching the morning news today very depressing. UKIP ffs.

EauRouge Fri 03-May-13 08:44:08

My DH is Canadian. He doesn't have UK citizenship and has no plans to get it. He still plays a lot of hockey and says 'eh' after 10 years in the UK so I guess that just shows his lack of intent to integrate.

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Fri 03-May-13 08:44:48

I don't think anyone would suggest that there should be no controls at all on immigration. It's just what controls, why those particular controls and how they are implemented that matters.

They should be fair, reasonable and not be rooted in skin colour!

dingit Fri 03-May-13 08:45:07


FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 03-May-13 08:46:27

I see some people have been suckered in.

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Fri 03-May-13 08:49:02

what do you mean?

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 03-May-13 08:50:36

I mean people are believing UKIP on immigration and trotting out the usual stuff

seeker Fri 03-May-13 08:54:09

There is not an open door policy.

And just because Nigel Farrage actually looks like a politician and is good on Question Time doesn't mean that he's not a racist bigot who plays to the worst side of the British psyche.

NotTreadingGrapes Fri 03-May-13 08:54:41

God yes, all those terrible people, coming to the UK and getting jobs.......that home grown sofa surfers can't be arsed to do.

Shouldn't be allowed.

Yanbu. When councils start giving planning permission to build on green belt land that, to me, is a clear sign that the country is overpopulated. Be it through immigration or not.

NotTreadingGrapes Fri 03-May-13 08:55:24

Has anyone mentioned council houses yet?

NotTreadingGrapes Fri 03-May-13 08:56:57

Some areas of some big cities are "overpopulated" by UK standards/experience.

NCG, it's a clear sign that councils are selling out to developers. It's diddly to do with immigration.

Corygal Fri 03-May-13 08:57:15

I think the immigration thang is a reflection, well displacement, of how bad things are in other, vital, ways for most people. Housing - schooling - hospital overcrowding - I don't even have to explain.

The annoying thing is that as displacements go, it's useless, at best. And irresponsible.

Corygal Fri 03-May-13 08:59:57

I think the govt should be ashamed of itself to allow a situation where people feel forced to vote racist. Even Labour took this one seriously - remember the Hodge report where Margaret Hodge warned Blair & Co that people in the East End were getting, er, frisky at perceived racial preference for services, and would turn racist out of shock at being denied their social rights.

WhoPaintedTheLion Fri 03-May-13 09:01:01

Give an idea enough air time and people will start to believe it.

Abra1d Fri 03-May-13 09:01:29

Of course there's been too much immigration--in some instances.

My father's life was recently saved by an Indian doctor. My son's health has been greatly helped by a second Indian doctor, who has been compassionate and kind. My mother's life is made far better than it would otherwise be as a result of the efficient and intelligent help of her Bulgarian cleaning lady/housekeeper. I am so grateful to these individuals. Clearly our country benefits hugely from people like them.

My mother was an immigrant. Worked for the NHS for 30 years. I like to think she was one worth having.

But--undoubtedly there are some immigrant groups who have contributed far less or nothing to British life overall. Non-English speaking brides who come into the country and never work, never involve themselves in British community life or learn to speak English, for whatever reason (I accept this may not be their choice).

I have no compunction at all in saying we should let in as many as we can of the first class and very few of the second. I am assuming we are talking about economic migrants here, not asylum seekers, which is a different topic really.

Economically and socially we don't need ghettoes of non-English speaking people who have no intention of integrating and this should be discouraged. We do need intelligent and/or hard-working and compassionate immigrants from wherever we can get them.

perplexedpirate Fri 03-May-13 09:01:36

Awesome cross post @ 8.55. smile

UKIP though. Fucking UKIP. sad

SinisterBuggyMonth Fri 03-May-13 09:04:23

The next town to mine, is one of the poshest places in the country, lots of famous/very rich people live there, and very comfortably off middle class in massive houses. You walk down the high street and its all white faces, apart from the family who runs the post office and the odd premier ship footballera. Not a place massively effected by immigration. They all voted UKIP last time. They must believe everything they read in the Daily Mail.

It is to do with immigration though. The area I live in needs more houses. I think something like 20% of the population are migrants. I know people are living longer too but without one or the other we wouldn't need more houses.

wonkylegs Fri 03-May-13 09:04:58

Councils giving permission to build on green belt isn't necessarily about overpopulation. Newcastle is considering allowing the greenbelt adjacent to the north (wealthy /attractive) part of the city to be built on whilst having empty properties and brownfield sites across the city. Why - due to pressures by housing companies that can build cheaper (much easier to build on a virgin plot than brownfield) and sell for more profit due to the associations of the adjacent suburb than they can in the currently available land. That has nothing to do with immigration just profit!

Abra1d Fri 03-May-13 09:06:57

Of course one of the reasons for the housing problem is immigration. NOt all of it--apparently the rise in single-person households is a major factor. Immigration contributes to 30% of the requirement for new homes, apparently. It is a factor. My personal view is that preserving the countryside is a moral obligation we owe to our children and grandchildren and that is an obligation we should take very seriously.

moogy1a Fri 03-May-13 09:07:12

sinister rich people don't just live in their own bubble and have no idea of what's going on in the rest of the country. Just because you live in a very well off area doesn't mean you can't be concerned about what's happening in other areas.( and ultimately their own area)

Flisspaps Fri 03-May-13 09:08:08

What seeker said.

Abra1d Fri 03-May-13 09:09:17

Exactly, what about all those trendy Lefties in large houses who support policies that don't impact on them but mean that less well-off people in towns like Slough can't get their children into local schools or register with a local GP? Aren't they living in as much of a bubble? The Blair government allowed mass immigration that didn't affect any of the ministers. They all lived in naice areas where they wouldn't be worried about such things.

MumnGran Fri 03-May-13 09:09:22

This seems to have flipped into an argument about whether people have a racist or non-racist approach?
For me its actually about overcrowding of a small island. Don't give a ff about colour of skin or originating country, but do have a problem with very high levels of economic migration causing massive pressure on areas such as maternity services, et al.

UKIP? ..... I never discuss politics with friends {smile]

Abra1d Fri 03-May-13 09:11:18

You are exactly right, MumnGran. It's not to do with race--but race is a convenient way of derailing an argument. I was once told on MN I was racist for opposing house-building on an agricultural field outside a vilage.

Mumngran - totally agree with you. That's what I was trying to say.

OrbisNonSufficit Fri 03-May-13 09:13:15

As an immigrant myself (not from the EU), yes I do think you're being a bit unreasonable. It's VERY difficult to get a UK visa (not to mention very expensive). My visa restrictions prevent me from accessing any government assistance (benefits etc). I can't get a mortgage. Getting a bank account when we arrived was nigh on impossible. Some of my workmates in other visa categories even have to report to the police station every time they move house. So I'd hardly say the door is flung wide open to immigrants.

moogy1a Fri 03-May-13 09:13:31

mumgran excellently put

soverylucky Fri 03-May-13 09:17:13

I thought that it was actually very, very difficult to get into this country if you are from a country outside of the EU (actually I know this for a fact as one of my best friends is married to someone who is from outside the EU) I also thought that we had an open door when it came to the EU - anyone can come here from the EU. Is that correct? can anyone infrorm me clearly?

roundtable Fri 03-May-13 09:19:01

I do hope if UKIP should by some miracle win an election that the queen will exercise her right not to make them government.

It's not just about the immigration issue with them, it's their views on people with special needs, maternity pay and more.

moogy1a Fri 03-May-13 09:21:53

yes we do have an open door within the EU.

Dawndonna Fri 03-May-13 09:22:38

interesting chart that shows increases and decreases under both governments Along with a drop in 2008/9/10 followed by a minor increase.

Dawndonna Fri 03-May-13 09:25:10

Yes, roundtable they'd like to lock my dcs away. That's what people 'forget' they are voting for.

StoicButStressed Fri 03-May-13 09:26:20

YANBU Moogy Although I suspect that the way your OP was worded may confuse some people into thinking you support UKIP, as opposed to (I think???) you referencing their rise in support rather as an indicator that many people DO believe immigration HAS been too high and 'unregulated'; I.E in sense of the EU automatic entry policy vs. Austrailia et al's 'points' based immigration policies?

Vis the odious Farage, I agree with Seeker: And just because Nigel Farrage actually looks like a politician and is good on Question Time doesn't mean that he's not a racist bigot who plays to the worst side of the British psyche. But would caveat that with the - alarming - fact that some of their supporters now are NOT 'the worst side of the British pyche', rather that they have seen no other 'politician' or mainstream party actually be prepared to openly and honestly simply tackle the issue head on. As it IS an issue and one you don't need to be a 'bigot' or a 'racist' to see as such.

We are a small island; we have a (albeit an NHS tettering on edge) Health system that is free at the point of delivery but clearly needs to be funded; we do not have enough social housing; we have a welfare system that is - whilst (IMHO) failing those in the worst of need - one of the most generous and instantly accessible in Europe (hence, statistically, the majority of EU immigrants choosing here rather than other EU countries where they would have the same instant rights to all of the above) but is now being slashed for those who are the most vulnerable as the welfare bill is now so huge (in straightforward economic terms).

I don't think stating any of that is racist in any way, or makes me a 'racist'. They are simple statements of fact. Yet unfortunately, it has been a debate most people and certainly political parties have avoided for fear of being branded 'racist'... which, beyond horribly & ironically, has then led to increased support of a party which IS fundamentally racist to it's core.

I think immigration has been: way too high; way too unregulated; and has caused huge issues in some communities where local services (e.g. Primary Schools) have been pushed to breaking point as well as the more macro economic issues.

I am concerned about all the issues above, but that does not make me 'racist'. I write as a second generation immigrant - my Father from Ireland and my Mumma from Africa.

flatpackhamster Fri 03-May-13 09:28:52


I thought that it was actually very, very difficult to get into this country if you are from a country outside of the EU (actually I know this for a fact as one of my best friends is married to someone who is from outside the EU)

Not that hard. Find a course in the UK that you want to study at a university or FE college, get a student visa, you're in and you can disappear. It's a popular route for illegal migrants. There have even been fake study courses created by fake colleges which are solely a channel for illegal migration.

I also thought that we had an open door when it came to the EU - anyone can come here from the EU. Is that correct? can anyone infrorm me clearly?

Exactly correct. Anyone from any EU member state can come and live and work and use the welfare system of any other member state.

CliftonGirl Fri 03-May-13 09:28:53

It is much easier to gain a UK citizenship if you are not from EU country.

StoicButStressed Fri 03-May-13 09:29:23

MumnGran Cross posted but agree with you entirely. It is the fact we cannot seem to have a reasoned debate about those very factual issues without the 'race card' then being lobbed in that does do ALL of us a huge disservice - and the delightful Mr Farrage the hugest of 'service'.

moogy1a Fri 03-May-13 09:29:52

Stoic yes I was referencing the fact that all major parties and UKIP have admitted there is a problem.
I wasn't actually supporting any one party above another.

PatPig Fri 03-May-13 09:29:54

Of course there has been far too much immigration.

Net migration 1970 to 1996: 139,000 (in 26 years)
Net migration 1997 to 2010: 3.2 million (in 13 years)

And the Tories are doing nothing to resolve the issues of disgustingly high house prices, and are blithely saying 'Romanians won't want to come to the UK'.

No wonder people voted for UKIP.

Immigrants are individually mostly delightful, but we are not like the US or Australia where you can just find a patch of dirt and build a house. The UK has been preserved in aspic since WW2 largely. And people, on the whole, support this policy.

So where the fuck are all these millions supposed to live?

ParmaViolette Fri 03-May-13 09:31:27


A welfare state, social housing, free and efficient healthcare and world class education cannot be achieved when you have an open door EU policy and lax attitude to everywhere else.

However, this is ignored by the the far left. They want all the benefits of a Scandinavian socialist paradise, without even adopting their policy to immigration to match (there's no open EU door there!)

I'm fairly centrist, and think UKIP are absolutely insane- but I'm glad of their existence if it forces the main parties to rethink their EU policies.

moogy1a Fri 03-May-13 09:32:02

"So where the fuck are all these millions supposed to live?"
on greenbelt which will really enhance the country.

hermioneweasley Fri 03-May-13 09:32:40

I don't know who would be staffing our building and service industries without immigration. Am I naive - have these terrible foreigners shoved hard working Brits out of the queues for interviews?

moogy1a Fri 03-May-13 09:35:36

yes hermione, you are being naiive. Many people in the service industry have no work visa so are open to exploitation and work for less than the minimum wage therefore removing the opportunity of a properly paid job from a citizen of the country.

ParmaViolette Fri 03-May-13 09:36:07

Not to mention, must of the people who pooh-pooh the statement 'immigration is a problem' tend to not know any undercut-by-migrant-workers tradesmen unless their marble worktops are being fitted by one, have kids in grammar schools and live in a lovely houses far away from the money wiring shops and international SIM street sellers

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PatPig Fri 03-May-13 09:38:43

The reality is our country is small enough that an open door policy wrt just ONE small Eastern European country is not sustainable.

If we had an open door policy wrt the world, then the country would change completely.

CelticPixie Fri 03-May-13 09:39:45

I think we should adopt a points system like they have in Australia. I don't think anyone objects to immigrants coming to the UK if they have a skill or trade that will contribute to our economy, what I do the I gets people's backs up is people coming to the UK because they think its a soft touch. Call me a racist if you like but I don't think that immigrants should be entitled to any kind of social housing or benefits until they've lived here and contributed for at least five years. Schools, hospitals and other public services are people pushed to breaking point at the moment.

Interestingly a friend of my dad works for a a major international company and was asked to go over to the USA to do the same job he does here. However US immigration refused to allow him a VISA because according to them there are American citizens who could do the job that he does. Which is of course correct, why can't we be more like that?

I'm afraid while I despise the BNP and other far right parties I can see the appeal of UKIP.

hermioneweasley Fri 03-May-13 09:41:30

Moogy, I'm sorry, I simply don't believe that national chains are hiring illegal workers and have a policy of paying less than NMW. I am sure there are cases of exploitation, but it doesn't explain why (certainly in the SE) everywhere you go you are served by someone from whom English is not a first language.

moogy1a Fri 03-May-13 09:47:21

national chains don't but there are thousands of small businesses that do.
I know plenty of young people who would love a job but with the pressure from so many immigrants there are tens and sometimes hundreds of people applying for even the most menial of jobs.
remember this?

gordyslovesheep Fri 03-May-13 09:49:37

so people are being exploited, poorly treated, working in unsafe conditions for piss poor wages ...and YOUR concern is they are taking 'our' jobs - that sums it up nicely

I am left wing - I grew up in a single parent family in Liverpool (oldest Afro Caribbean community in Europe, second oldest Chinese community in UK ) and have lived and worked in Birmingham for the past 18 years - so you are totally wrong about 'middle class lefties' who don't live in areas where immigration has an impact

FreudiansSlipper Fri 03-May-13 09:50:36

Immigration has been badly managed in some parts of the country, having large areas populated by immigrants that are already struggling with services, jobs and housing has made the problem worse it gives those who already struggling a target to blame rather than the government this is mainly who UKIP and the BNP have targeted to gain votes and it has worked

Nigel Farage was once again banging on about the 29 million bulgarians who shall be heading over here next year wanting our housing and using our nhs where is the proof that there is going to be a mass exodus from bulgaria ask any homeless person on the street they probably will say i want to go to x,y or z they want a better life does it mean they will do

UKIP want to ignore the real reasons for our economy being in crises as talking about the financial situation and the global recession is too complicated far easier to point to immigrants in our society, something we can nearly all relate to as being the reason the uk is struggling

gordyslovesheep Fri 03-May-13 09:50:50

I also work with young unemployed people - I totally disagree with your last post - the issue is the lack of suitable jobs for 16-18 year olds, not immigration

moogy1a Fri 03-May-13 09:52:05

Yes I am concerned that there aren't enough jobs, or enough school places, and that maternity services are at breaking point, and that greenbelt land is being built on to provide housing .
I don't think I mentioned "middle class lefties??"

ParmaViolette Fri 03-May-13 09:53:48

Hermione- my experience of working in minimum wage jobs is that migrant workers want as many hours as possible, and will be prepared to pick up any shifts and unsociable overtime. A situation that springs to mind is a lovely young polish girl who used to regularly work 2 week stretches with no days off, as she had to send money home and also had no commitments.

Management told me that they're more attractive workers as they do the stuff that British workers who have the audacity to ask for a weekend off, or swap shifts are to attend an event, won't do.

Obviously this isn't the case or every migrant worker- but I've had a lot of minimum wage jobs, and it seems to be a recurring feature. They're getting paid national minimum wage, but still being exploited by the fact that they're easily pressured to stay on late and forfeit days off due to a mix of needing as much £££ as possible and not knowing their rights.

Dawndonna Fri 03-May-13 09:54:52

Born and bred in Wimbledon, went to school in Putney. Champagne socialist parents. No longer there but well aware of the impact and still won't vote for UKIP.

gordyslovesheep Fri 03-May-13 09:56:09

no YOU didn't has been raised by others as part of the discussion - which I am responding to ...

Maternity services have been slashed - the NHS has been cut to buggery - look beyond the simple 'blame the Jews immigrants arguments ...and do you SERIOUSLY think immigrants are going to be buying 4 bed detached houses on prime greenbelt land in the south - really?????

Mumsyblouse Fri 03-May-13 09:58:22

Call me a racist if you like but I don't think that immigrants should be entitled to any kind of social housing or benefits until they've lived here and contributed for at least five years.

Can I just point out that most immigrants from non-EU have no recourse to public funds, that's what stamped on their passports, that's what my husband's passport said for years. So, he paid taxes in the UK for a decade but wouldn't have been protected if he'd been made unemployed, which was fine by us, we always knew if there was trouble, we would have no benefits and have never claimed anything (beyond my own claim for child benefit).

It's only within the EU that there is access to benefits, because of the open door policy within the EU although different member states do have some restrictions on these. But these economic migrants in general tend to be quite young and hard-working and there's evidence that they claim less than the general indigenous UK population.

Wallison Fri 03-May-13 09:58:56

The reason why there are not enough houses is because not enough houses are being built, particularly social housing. This has nothing to do with immigration but to do with the rise in single-person households and divorce rates.

The reason that welfare spending has been slashed is because we have a govt in power that is ideologically opposed to the welfare state and are hell-bent on dismantling it under the guise of 'necessary spending cuts'. Again, this is nothing to do with immigration. The vast majority of welfare spending is on pensions. Again, nothing to do with immigration.

The reason that the NHS is on the brink of collapse is because successive govts have hived off parts of it on massive contracts to corrupt and inefficient bidders, who are their mates. Also created a culture of obscenely well-paid middle management who do fuck all. Again, nothing to do with immigration.

If you think the problems with housing, welfare benefits and the NHS are to do with immigration you are woefully misinformed. And, yes, a racist.

gordyslovesheep Fri 03-May-13 10:00:36

our massive NHS dental practice is staffed almost entirely by young, qualified EU dentists who come here to gain further training - they are brilliant !

Abra1d Fri 03-May-13 10:01:01

There is a 30% correlation with increased immigration, Wallison. I accept divorce as the main contributory factor.

Abra1d Fri 03-May-13 10:02:24

The Department for Communities and Local Government assumes that migration accounts for nearly 40 percent of the annual increase in households in England (252,000 new households per year)

moogy1a Fri 03-May-13 10:02:34

So an increase of 7 million over the next 20 years has no impact on housing?
and 3 million since 1997?
At least acknowledge that causes the country to need more houses?

Wallison Fri 03-May-13 10:04:58

^why can't we be more like that?

We are. There are already very strict rules on employing people from outside the EU - in effect, employers have to prove that the person they are employing is the only person who can do the job. But then they get tripped up because there is a proviso that the job cannot be seen to be created specifically for that person. It's actually quite hard to get into the UK. And even once here, most people have 'no recourse to public funds' stamped on their passports - ie no benefits, no council housing etc.

TheseFoolishThings Fri 03-May-13 10:05:59

I find it really rather depressing that nobody can talk about immigration without being branded a racist. It's rather controlling isn't it? Mumngran said up there exactly what I feel and so Wallison I'd like to ask you this - you say there are not enough houses being built? Where are they all going to go? When does it stop? When the UK looks like Monaco and there's not a square of green anywhere? Do you want any extra housing built to be exclusively for the use of single parent families and if so, isn't that some kind of 'ist' in itself?
Please can someone explain to me just exactly why being concerned about unlimited immigration is necessarily racist? I just don't get it.

gordyslovesheep Fri 03-May-13 10:06:48

yes we need more housing - our own population is increasing as well you know - many immigrant families live as extended family groups btw not all in seperate homes (eg my friend has herself, her parents, her brother, his wife and their 2 children living in their owned outright none social housing house!)

gordyslovesheep Fri 03-May-13 10:08:01

TheseFoolishThings a debate about immigration is not racist - but it is often populated by ill informed people who's views ARE racist - that is a sad fact

Mumsyblouse Fri 03-May-13 10:09:23

our massive NHS dental practice is staffed almost entirely by young, qualified EU dentists who come here to gain further training - they are brilliant !

Same here, in our area there were NO NHS dentists with open lists for a while until they realised this was actually not legal not to offer NHS treatment. So, surprise surprise the PCTs actually went out recruiting in Poland, EE. all over the place and persuaded dentists from those countries to come here and offer NHS services. My grandma said 'I do think they should have let the British dentists have the jobs first' when we were discussing it, the joke being of course that no British dentist in the county was doing NHS only work and they all preferred to work in private practice (which I don't agree with, I think if trained by the NHS they should be obliged to offer some time to NHS patients if remaining in UK).

People are so gullible, they would prefer to believe that the Eastern and central European dentists are 'undercutting' our dentists (how does that even work?), not the truth, which is that our dentists simply prefer making twice as much money in the private sector and cannot be persuaded into NHS work!

TheseFoolishThings Fri 03-May-13 10:11:09

Gordy - ok, how about people who think that attempting to debate it without assuming that that is the case? Would that be at all possible?

Wallison Fri 03-May-13 10:11:32

I'm not controlling anyone. I'm just talking as I find, as you are. If I think you're a racist, I'll say so.

There are so many problems with housing policy in this country that it's difficult to know where to start with it all - what we are looking at today is the result of thirty years' of housing policy failure, from both Labour and Tories. From the massive land-banks sitting idle owned by developers, to the sell-off of council housing (a national asset which would have increased in value and pays for itself many times over), to non-doms buying up whole swathes of London as part of a regime of tax-dodging, to BTL mortgages and £20bn a year of taxpayers' money going on housing benefit to pay them off ... the list goes on and on. None of that is to do with immigration. Sure, be concerned, be angry. But at least direct it at a target where there is some credibility in apportioning blame, otherwise you just look like you are trying to find excuses for blaming brown-faced people for the country's ills. Ie a racist.

NotTreadingGrapes Fri 03-May-13 10:15:17

My hometown (about 25,000 people) has a FB page full of people who allegedly voted UKIP yesterday. And for weeks there have been posts about (mainly for some reason) Poles taking their jobs/women/houses/green fields etc.

Despite me showing them that a whole 600 immigrants (of varying nationalities) have moved there in the last 10 years.

Oh, and you walk about 10 mins to the edge of town and see nothing but fields till you get to Derby.

The NHS/schools/housing etc etc are stretched/at breaking point (delete as necessary depending on which paper you read) My half woman half sofa half sister "I'm not getting a job I want to have babies" (she has had 6 with 6 different fathers) might have contributed slightly to that. (along with all those dirty foreigners of course)

Like my daughter.

gordyslovesheep Fri 03-May-13 10:15:44

yes of course - and would it be possible for people not to assume that anyone who disagrees with UKIP is a wishy washy lefty who doesn't live in the real world?

TheseFoolishThings Fri 03-May-13 10:19:25

I don't know gordy because I don't think that!

Lazyjaney Fri 03-May-13 10:22:05

Discussing immigration is not tantamount to being a racist, this hysterical accusation of racism the minute the topic is opened is very unhelpful.

Most other countries manage to have far more sensible immigration policies than the UK, IMO it's because they are more capable of having a rational discussion.

PatPig Fri 03-May-13 10:24:10

I have quite a bit of experience of low-paid work, and I can say that immigrants are massively more attractive than white British workers for employers.

Typically there is a much stronger/better work ethic, more flexible about hours and so on.

Because of the NMW a highly motivated, often professional qualified Pole or other foreign immigrant costs the same as a British worker with no skills or motivation.

Also you get the stereotypical Polish builder/gardener/etc. who is willing to work for half what established British businesses would work for.

This is great for people digging out basements in Islington, but not so good for the white working class who traditionally held down these jobs.

It's not really a surprise therefore to see UKIP the second party in South Shields, despite it being a traditional Labour area. UKIP are attracting the most support from C2/D/E, not middle class Tories, but more like Thatcher's 'Sid'.

The white working class basically has nothing to gain from immigration. The middle classes yes - cheap cleaners, nannies (this one is HUGE now, at my kids' private school, a great deal of the childcare is being done by Eastern Europeans while mummy goes off to make a packet in the City), builders, and they can excitedly chatter to their friends about the great new Polish deli.

The BBC painted them as winners here: basically saying that the fact that the majority of white British people have left Barking & Dagenham in the last decade is great because they've all gone to live in Southend, which is much nicer than shitty old Barking anyway. Obviously this is nonsense, because this will only apply to the established older generation, not young people without capital.

PatPig Fri 03-May-13 10:25:02

sorry that is "the BBC have painted the white working classes as winners." just to clarify

PatPig Fri 03-May-13 10:26:17

And BTW, I think on the whole that if there is a shortage of dentists, or nurses, then selective recruitment in Poland or the Phillippines or whatever is sensible.

But going out to recruit sandwich shop workers doesn't seem so rational.

Student visas are no longer easy to get or an easy way into the country. The requirements have gone up massively, fake schools have been shut down and universities have to monitor their international students more closely. London Met University -- a proper university -- could not accept international students for the last year because its ability to sponsor their visas was revoked.

Not saying no one can still abuse this path, but things have changed a great deal. I feel like a lot of the rhetoric around migration is outdated these days.

hettie Fri 03-May-13 10:43:28

abra... you are conflating 'households' with housing space. A household can be a family of five living in a one bedroom flat
moogy and others... And there has been an increase in migration.... successive governments have not been brave enough to shape the debate on this (hence UKIP). For a long time we needed immigration- our demographic was wonky, we didn't have enough people of working age to contribute to the work/tax system... we didn't/couldn't increase the birth rate so the much quicker way to rectify this was to increase migration.
I think the reason the debate about immigration gets mired with calls of racism is because quite frankly it is often discussed in a very irrational way. Boring and ill informed stereotypes are used, people blame immigrants for all sorts of crap for which there is very little evidence. I'm a Phd researcher in a social science, I take evidence very bloody seriously. I also have a masters in communication and worked as a journalist... I take reporting and understanding of evidence very bloody seriously and frankly there is just so much misinformation (from both 'sides').
If you really really want to make a case for or against recent immigration policies (and you don't want to be accused of being a racist) then do your research and come at me with a compelling argument for the negative effects based on FACTS.... So immigration has increased... so bloody what..... there is unemployment and less service..... you show me a pathway that evidences that A made B happen (not just because it feels intuitively like it must be so, or 'it makes sense' or some other 'feeling') and I will hold my breath on calling you a racist. Because sorry to say 'feelings' or 'it making sense' or reading it in the daily mail are all based on your unconscious stereotypes (not evidence). I'd be surprised if anyone can draw some linear evidence because housing/resources/employment are all complex multi-factorial things and cannot be simply caused by one convenient thing.

Lazy to be honest I don't think any country has a rational discussion on immigration.

I've also lived in the US and France -- two relatively wealthy countries with lots of open space. The immigration discussion there is also pretty hysterical/apocalyptic.

I think it's almost unavoidable, because fundamentally the immigration question is about national identity -- it's about, what kind of country do we want to be? Bound to evoke strong reactions.

It's quite telling, who gets the most ire when times are hard. It should be the leaders who got us into this mess, but so often it's not, unfortunately.

RooneyMara Fri 03-May-13 10:45:13

The people round here standing for UKIP have been elderly and often disabled people living in council flats, or living alone in dreadful conditions and using an electric scooter.

this to me says it is a party that represents or seeks to represent the vulnerable and scared among us. I think it seeks to play on the fears of certain people especially old people.

There are millions of old people, more I think than any other demographic age group? is that right? So I imagine that's why they are doing so well.

Makes me very depressed.

StoicButStressed Fri 03-May-13 10:58:02

Wallinson 'If you think the problems with housing, welfare benefits and the NHS are to do with immigration you are woefully misinformed. And, yes, a racist."

Statiscally/factually/economically - ALL of the services you mention have been directly impacted by the EU open-door policy. I don't think (although I may be wrong?) ANYONE upthread has said the issues those services face are in ANY WAY solely 'to do with immigration' - but stating that immigration clearly HAS had a significant bearing on that, simply vis the extra 'load' factor, has NOTHING 'to do' with it is as unfactual; illogical; and extreme as anyone who said it WAS the 'sole' factor.

Basic numbers/economics/mathes: Labour asserted there would be 'no more than 30,000 immigrants from Poland' at point of that country being granted entry to the EU, and de facto it's citizens to the open-door within EU immigration policy and rights. The number turned out to be over 2 million - into a country with a population of c.65mn; I.E. a 3% increase in population but with no matching or correlating increase in GDP, or macro tax revenues to fund that huge leap and the - obvious - extra demand placed on services. Stating that is NOT 'racist', nor makes one 'racist'. Stating that it is likely to be repeated by the next wave of migration when the next countries (those that the vile Mr Farage IS using for his own, very racist ends), and having concerns about the impact of that is not a statement that makes me or anyone 'racist'.

Vis your clear assertion of: *'And, yes, a racist' - other than being pretty offensive as by default you would seem to be calling ME too a 'racist'? - it is a totally ridiculous and a beyond extreme 'labelling' statement. SUGGEST READ THE BELOW?

Immediatly post the influx above, I remember seeing a Headteacher being interviewed about the massive problems it had caused. She wanted all her pupils - including those recently arrived - to have all that they needed and she obviously cared about them all deeply. BUT - her concern was it was a provision she simply could not fulfil as her school had suddenly virtually doubled in numbers; she had to get portakabins in as make-shift classrooms; and find & fund teaching assistants who could act as interpretors. So this, dedicated & caring Headteacher is - for flagging those impacts and the many issues caused - according to you, de facto 'a racist'???* hmm

That is just NUTS - and, guttingly & worse, is what feeds RIGHT into the vile Mr Farage's agenda in it's polarising people with genuine, factual, concerns being called 'racists' and then (some of them) feeling pushed enough to join him and nasty band of bigots.angry

dogsandcats Fri 03-May-13 10:58:17

Foreign workers take some British jobs. They are working in Britain.
I think some of the jobs they take wouldnt be done by Brits such as fruit/flower picking etc, but some of the jobs Brits do want.

StoicButStressed Fri 03-May-13 11:05:02


Please don't call my mother 'brown-faced'. That really IS fucking racist.

DreamingofSummer Fri 03-May-13 11:10:07

UKIP is simply BNP lite. Nasty, racist party which will be in the dustbin of history soon enough.

Their newly elected councillors will get bored of the day to day details of having to be a local member and dealing with people's problems and issues. They'll have to learn that being a councillor doesn't actually mean you can go out with a van and round up and deport the Latvians/Poles/Romanians or whoever is the local hate group

Abra1d Fri 03-May-13 11:22:20

'If you really really want to make a case for or against recent immigration policies (and you don't want to be accused of being a racist) then do your research and come at me with a compelling argument for the negative effects based on FACTS.... So immigration has increased... so bloody what..... there is unemployment and less service..... you show me a pathway that evidences that A made B happen (not just because it feels intuitively like it must be so, or 'it makes sense' or some other 'feeling') and I will hold my breath on calling you a racist. Because sorry to say 'feelings' or 'it making sense' or reading it in the daily mail are all based on your unconscious stereotypes (not evidence). I'd be surprised if anyone can draw some linear evidence because housing/resources/employment are all complex multi-factorial things and cannot be simply caused by one convenient thing.'

I don't read The Daily Mail. I don't believe in 'intuition' or 'it making sense' and I don't believe I used either of those phrases in any of my posts on this thread. I linked to a report produced by The Department for Communities and Local Governmen. I think perhaps you are confusing me with someone else. My mother is an immigrant, as I said. She doesn't read The Daily Mail, either. Too busy being an NHS worker, most of her life. smile

But I will hold my breath on calling you unable to read posts correctly.

Wallison Fri 03-May-13 11:25:53

Jesus, Stoic, you could hardly have picked a less appropriate username if you tried, could you? First, I haven't mentioned your mother. Second, it is unequivocably not my responsibility if racists vote for a racist party. Third, the pressures on housing, welfare spending and the NHS are not caused by immigration. Immigration is of net value to the country, economically - migrants generate far more wealth and resources than they use. I have no idea about the headteacher you bang on about and I would hestitate to base immigration policy on the experiences of one woman somewhere at some unstated time in the past, particularly when the UK is now having to deal with the consequences of a baby bulge of children conceived during better economic times than at present.

hettie Fri 03-May-13 11:34:21

Stoic- you assert that basic numbers/maths/economics shows that a 3% increase in population obviously places an extra demand because you make the assumption that there is no increase in tax revenue or GDP.... Lets just assume for the minute that there was no increase in tax revenue/GDP (I'll let you work on evidencing that....). You then still have a nasty little assumption in there don't you.... which is it's the immigrants that are not contributing... they come into the country and don't pay taxes/raise GDP, but use services (so it costs us all).
With no evidence (just assumptions/ stereotypes) you have laid the fortunes/misfortunes of our national GDP/tax base at the door of immigrants and that's what makes it racist. Because remove the assumption and you could make another argument from the same inferences. I could just as easily argue the following. The population increased due to immigration, at the same time due to mismanagement of our economy, poor policies on tax loopholes etc GDP/tax revenues fell (not that we have proven this at all mind you).
Oxford University has had a very sensible and academically verifiable look at the the net contribution of immigration and the pension problem which largely discredits the idea that opening up to the EU in 2004 caused overall revenues to fall.... you can find a summary here. BUT.. I know how people like to cling to their stereotypes, so you probably won't really engage with it. In social psychology stereotypes are seen as a cognitive short cut (in lay language you use a stereotype to avoid having think too much about something complicated)

Abra1d Fri 03-May-13 11:37:08

Hettie your syntax is so poor it is hard to work out whether your kind explanations for 'lay' people actually make sense or not.

Wallison Fri 03-May-13 11:44:02

I find hettie's posts eminently easy to understand.

They are non-hysterical though, which I can see for some people would be a problem.

DrSeuss Fri 03-May-13 11:52:12

My friend's cousins arrived one Saturday a few years ago having travelled by bus from Poland. On the Sunday, rather than sleeping in as she had expected, they got up, got on the Internet and by Monday morning, had five possible jobs. On the Tuesday, she delivered them to the factory a couple of hours away, where they had been provided with a room. One of them was a qualified midwife who had left two children in the care of their grandmother.
That kind of dedication to building a life is why they will get on, not preferential treatment. My cousin left his wife and children here for a while to earn good money in Saudi. No one accused him of stealing anyone's job.

hettie Fri 03-May-13 11:54:20

abra- sorry I was only directing the bit about households directly at you ... the rest of my post at 10.43 was a more general post about the discussion and not directed at you at all. Should have made that clearer.
But to pick up on your point, just because it's a government report doesn't make it good or unquestionable evidence.... Who wrote the report, why was it commissioned, what might have been their agenda (if any), are they transparent about what data they used and what analytic method they applied..... And even if it's methodologically sounds etc why does it matter that 40% of the increase in households can be attributed to migration.... I still don't see a good argument as to how that means there are less resource to go round? Because theoretically that 40% could all be higher rate tax payers.... I would have thought not but we don't know do we...
Oh and apologies for syntax but I am dyslexic...

Orwellian Fri 03-May-13 11:54:38

I don't think you are a racist but you must realise that multiculturalism is the holy cow of the liberal intelligensia whose opinions are the only ones that count. It doesn't matter whether there is huge pressure on housing, whether there are not enough school places or whether the NHS is being pushed to the limit, immigration must be allowed to continue unhindered and the utopian dream of the liberals must not be allowed to fail, no matter how much damage it does to the majority. They know what is right for us and who are we to have our own opinions. We are merely pesky proles who should know our place!

Wallison Fri 03-May-13 12:00:19

That's nice.

Aaaaaaaaanyway ...

hettie Fri 03-May-13 12:04:40

orwellian... sorry to be a bore, but the huge pressure on housing, not enough school places, and pressure on the nhs can/could be caused by any number of things not just immigration. You can have an opinion... that's fine but it's just that isn't it.... an opinion. And then (if you're a reflective type/or like to get involved in internet forum debates grin) then someone/you might ask well why that opinion... Why do I assume immigration causes these things? And that's when I start to say.... mmme have you considered that this opinion might be based on a stereotype? Because it sure as hell isn't based on fact (and I mean really good non-hysterical/not with an agenda/transparent evidence based fact).

Livinglavidafoca Fri 03-May-13 12:04:51

I am a fecking immigrant and I 'stole' one of your men grin

dogsandcats Fri 03-May-13 12:11:26

I think that if large numbers of Brits went to live abroad, ie there was a somewhat equal amount of people leaving, and coming,there wouldn't be so much of an issue.

Latara Fri 03-May-13 12:13:25

I can't complain about immigration because mine & my sisters newest good friends are... immigrants! And they know how to enjoy life because they appreciate living here and don't moan the whole time!

The hospital in my area is overcrowded btw by old people who have 'immigrated' from other areas to retire, then got ill.

DrSeuss Fri 03-May-13 12:15:24

Just checked figures. 5.5 million Brits currently live overseas. Why are they never in the wrong?

Wallison Fri 03-May-13 12:16:55

Ah, but you can't be foreign if you're British. This applies wherever you are in the world.

Wallison Fri 03-May-13 12:23:14

Also, you're not an illegal immigrant if you fund your travels by working cash-in-hand in a bar in Australia. Or teach English in Turkey on a tourist visa.

fromparistoberlin Fri 03-May-13 12:51:47

I actually forget sometimes that my DP is an immigrant

and my babies are half immigrant

the fuckers, its a good job I pay a fucking shit load of tax

basically, it all boils down to tax IMO

one the biggest immi-haters I knows lives in a council house even thought they owe £50K plus, nuff said

moogy1a Fri 03-May-13 13:08:07

one the biggest immi-haters I knows lives in a council house even thought they owe £50K plus, nuff said
in the nicest possible way, what on earth are you on about??!!

MrsMorton Fri 03-May-13 13:28:10

The government hasn't commissioned enough training jobs to allow all
UK dental graduates to work in the NHS. The irony being that these wonderful EU dentists don't have to do the training jobs. So why are we discriminating against UK graduates who actively want to work in the NHS?

Misspixietrix Fri 03-May-13 13:31:37

Whenever I hear/see the Immigration Debate come up I wonder how the likes of Spain and Australia feel about the like of all us 'British Immigrants'. hmm

moogy1a Fri 03-May-13 13:36:29

I should imagine the likes of Spain are perfectly happy with all the retirees who have their own British pension, don't take any jobs and pay for private healthcare whilst helping keep local economies ticking over spending their baby boomer money in restaurantas etc.
Is that the kind of thing you meant?

Savannahgirl Fri 03-May-13 13:38:03

I think immigration can be a good thing but only if:

- it happens at a moderate pace to allow our infrastructure to keep up

- we have only highly skilled individuals who put more into the economy than they take out

- immigrants integrate into indigenous communities rather than creating their own segregated sections of society

Sadly I think many, many voters don't feel this is the case at the moment which is why people whose families have lived and worked here for generations and ,in many cases, fought for this country, feel so let down right now by what they perceive to be this and the last Government's failure to ensure the above.

I couldn't think of anything worse than having Farage as PM but I hope this makes David Cameron, Nick Clegg and Ed Milliband sit up and listen to what a lot of the electorate have been trying to tell them for YEARS!

moogy1a Fri 03-May-13 13:40:46

Australia figures
The number of settlers arriving in Australia from more than 200 countries between July 2008 and June 2009 totalled 158,021. Most were born in New Zealand (16.2 per cent), the United Kingdom (13.6 per cent), India (10.9 per cent), China (10.0 per cent) and South Africa (4.6 per cent).[4]
Doesn't really compare to the couple of million of immigrants arriving in Britain .

EldritchCleavage Fri 03-May-13 13:42:08

Hark at all the people going on about immigrants 'refusing to integrate'. That's a two-way street, and always has been. There are plenty who would, if only the indigenous population hadn't moved out of their areas in order not to have to integrate with them.

It amazes me how the racism that was endemic in this country when mass immigration started in the 50s and 60s (and which largely shaped the immigrant experience and a lot of how the different races live today) is just glossed over now. Everyone needs to own their part in why we are where we are.

HullMum Fri 03-May-13 13:45:13

definitely too much immigration. And I wish Spain and Australia and Florida would stop taking lazy British refugees in angry

wonderingagain Fri 03-May-13 13:55:29

The reason the tories tolerate immigration is because it supplies cheap labour to businesses.

Years ago when there was plenty of work it was fine but good skilled people are losing their jobs now, and can't afford to take on the lower paid jobs where immigrants often have lower overheads because often they see themselves as being here temporarily.

Astounding that neither Labour or tories have used this issue to their advantage. Ukip has, and look where it's got them. The last thing we want is racists dealing with the immigration problem.

Savannahgirl Fri 03-May-13 14:03:25

I also think that UKIP's election "success"is nothing more than the result of a protest vote to send DC the message that many people are fed up with being dictated to by the Eurocrats in Brussels and want out of the EU for many more reasons than just immigration.
Whether or not that would be in the UK's best interests or not, who knows?

slug Fri 03-May-13 14:10:53

I'm an immigrant. I took one of your men and one of your jobs. Given the amount of contacts I get from headhunters it seems I could have any number of British jobs if I wanted.

I really wish I could find some of those mythical Polish workers who undercut the British working class. You can't get a tradesman round my way for love nor money. If they deem to ring me back the best I get is "Not worth my while love".

moogy1a Fri 03-May-13 14:19:15

slug I take it you're not in a NMW job if you're being headhunted? It's the indigenous working class who have lost out to mass immigration as always. Not your chattering / professional classes

propertyNIGHTmareBEFOREXMAS Fri 03-May-13 14:33:22

Of course you can say that. As long as you are not inciting hatred you have freedom and speech.

Grinkly Fri 03-May-13 14:34:45

Just can't stand immigrants insisting on their rights which defy British Law -was listening to Jemima Khan's radio prog about second wives. Grrrrrrrrr. Bigamy is illegal in the UK. Then the issue of forced marriage Grrrrrrrrrr, or female circumcision Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

hettie Fri 03-May-13 14:38:29

I see no one able to actually rise to the challenge of backing up their 'thoughts' on this subject with any really clear evidence......
moogy exactly how have the indiginous working class lost out? Spell it out for me, how has immigration directly done this?

hettie Fri 03-May-13 14:41:42

But grinkly..... We haven't changed any laws have we? What does insisting mean? Asking? Law makers can say no and then we can engage in dialogue about why forced marriage (or what ever is not ok)

seeker Fri 03-May-13 14:44:00

When has an immigrant insisted on their rights in defiance of British law and got anywhere?

wordfactory Fri 03-May-13 14:45:55

hettie I think there have been problems in some areas of high unemployment, where factory owners etc now only employ foreign worjkers because they will work on short term rolling contracts for minimum wage. No holiday pay, no sick pay, no maternity pay. No guaranteed hours.

Local people can't or won't do that. And I don't blame them for not wanting to work like that. Working people fought for hundreds of years to get reasonable rights.

hettie Fri 03-May-13 14:48:12

But grinkly..... We haven't changed any laws have we? What does insisting mean? Asking? Law makers can say no and then we can engage in dialogue about why forced marriage (or what ever is not ok)

moogy1a Fri 03-May-13 14:49:08

because mass immigration leads to immigrants taking the lower paid jobs as the job market becomes saturated.
It's been mentioned a few times in this thread that immigrants take on service jobs etc in high numbers. these are the very jobs which have been traditionally taken by the under educated working classes.
As the numbers immigrating has risen massively, the numbers accessing professional jobs has risen which is why the middle classes who previously thought mass immigration was a good thing ( cheap labour for agriculture, hotel industry etc) now are rightly concerned that the professional job market will also become saturated.

QuietTiger Fri 03-May-13 14:50:15

I think a lot of people confuse "Legal immigration" with "illegal immigration".

Quite rightly, those people who qualify to enter into the UK legally under the immigration rules should be allowed to do so and it is irrelevant what nationality, skin colour, ethnic origin etc they are - they are a benefit to the UK, because they bring skilled labour, pay taxes and contribute to a multi-cultural society.

Illegal immigrants are often economic migrants, who are looking for a better life than the one in their home country. Because they do not qualify for legal entry under the immigration rules, they resort to entering the UK clandestinely, and then either work illegally or claim asylum.

If they claim asylum, then under the terms of the 1951 Geneva convention, the UK has to consider their asylum claim. They have the right to help whilst this is going on - certain benefits, legal aid, etc. There is no question that this is often abused and economic migrants claim to be someone who requires political asylum. Their application is quite rightly refused by the UKBA (because they are not a genuine applicant) and they become a failed asylum seeker, who often still remains a drain on UK resources because they appeal against removal, etc.

Regardless of the rights or wrongs of illegal entry into the UK, the illegals/asylum seekers still have to be treated as basic human beings and given rights because we are a civilised society. "They are not bringing Britain to its knees" - successive morons in government are doing that.

The UKIP is a racist party feeding on the fears of the daily mail reading masses. Immigrants will not "destroy" Britain. And I say that as an ex-immigration officer who worked at the sharp end in enforcement for over 10 years.

helenaconhambarter Fri 03-May-13 15:01:27

When has an immigrant insisted on their rights in defiance of British law and got anywhere?
Abu Qatada ring any bells seeker?

seeker Fri 03-May-13 15:05:21

Abu Quatada has been dealt with under the law. The law may be an ass in this case, but he hasn't been given special treatment because he is an immigrant!

hettie Fri 03-May-13 15:07:03

OK moogy.... So I see that that argument makes intuitive sense to you. But the idea that "mass immigration leads to immigrants taking lower paid jobs" is your thoughts/views/assumption isn't it (unless your about to show me good evidence to prove that that is true). And the problem with that assumption (and the reason that you could be accused of being racist) is that you assume that immigrants take low paid jobs. What's that assumption based on? That they are all unskilled? Poor? Desperate? By making that assumption you are assigning characteristics to a a very varied yes you are using a sterotype and yes that could be construed as racist

PatPig Fri 03-May-13 15:07:23

"Quite rightly, those people who qualify to enter into the UK legally under the immigration rules should be allowed to do so "

Only in a very narrow legal sense, one not relevant to the discussion of 'too much imigration'.

For example some people are not allowed to come here under the immigration rules, such as children of British citizens born overseas, where the British citizen cannot show sufficient income to support them. Many would say that this is wrong, and they should be allowed here. On the other hand, several million have come here from Eastern Europe, and while they have the right to do so, had the country been polled on this, undoubtedly there would have been a resounding 'no' vote to this.

moogy1a Fri 03-May-13 15:10:52

Just how many times do people trot out the line that immigrants take up low paid jobs that the british won't? and that's coming from pro immigration people.
It's not racist to say that if you arrive , possibly underskilled in a foreign country you are likely to take a lower paid job.
Don't try and pin a racist tag where there is none. This is why it's impossible to discuss this rationally most of the time. I know, fling the Daily Mail line at me too.

PatPig Fri 03-May-13 15:14:28

Hettie, only 18% of Pret a Manager's staff are British. Even less in London.

These are low-paid jobs.

This is not racist, it's fact.

There are agencies that advertise jobs in Eastern Europe, without even bothering to look in the UK.

This is not racist, it's fact.

helenaconhambarter Fri 03-May-13 15:23:04

seeker he is an immigrant (albeit an illegal one) and he has defied British Law not just by coming here in the first place, but by still being here when the the Government have repeatedly tried to remove him for having being found guilty of a criminal offence, but are constantly thwarted by the European Courts.
I'd say that was a case of insisting on his rights in defiance of British Law.

slug Fri 03-May-13 15:27:18

moogy1a. When I first came here I worked 2 or 3 jobs at once. None of which were skilled. I got up at 5, was at my first job by 6am and worked through till 10pm most days.

I get headhunters calling me because I am (now) highly skilled in what I do. I've not had the same career the whole time I'm here, but I'm damn flexible and I have a reputation in my industry for competence and reliability.

I had hear the term "jobsworth" before I came to the UK but I never really understood it until I worked here.

wordfactory Fri 03-May-13 15:29:39

I don't think expecting sick pay or maternity leave makes one a jobswoth.

Hullygully Fri 03-May-13 15:30:09



oh wait..

MoreBeta Fri 03-May-13 15:34:49

I nearly emigrated to New Zealand a year or so ago. The hoops I had to jump through and the money I had to put up to guarantee I would not be a drain on the NZ state was very large.

Personally, I dont have a problem with that and I dont see why the UK cant have the same policy.

PatPig Fri 03-May-13 15:35:10

I didn't march anywhere.

hettie Fri 03-May-13 15:35:55

Ask yourself why you assume that immigrants will arrive underskilled....why?
And it might be a fact that only 18 percent are British. But it doesn't then make it fact that they are taking jobs... Maybe some immigrants come here and buy pret food and create jobs....or jobs in other areas. Job creation is possible too

Hullygully Fri 03-May-13 15:36:42

Do you not have any antecedents Patpig, or any sense of the sweep of history and interconnectedness of past and present?

TheToysAreALIVEITellThee Fri 03-May-13 15:36:55

Having worked with a company that took on a number of immigrants because they were cheaper I have to say yanbu

FreyaSnow Fri 03-May-13 15:43:12

The only thing I can work out from this thread is that a lot of people on both side of the argument want to have arguments about ideology and not about what is factually happening with immigration.

I feel unable to form an opinion on this issue because the general debate beyond MN is also like this.

seeker Fri 03-May-13 15:46:15

"seeker he is an immigrant (albeit an illegal one) and he has defied British Law not just by coming here in the first place, but by still being here when the the Government have repeatedly tried to remove him for having being found guilty of a criminal offence, but are constantly thwarted by the European Courts.
I'd say that was a case of insisting on his rights in defiance of British Law.

I might be wrong- but I don't think that makes sense.

PatPig Fri 03-May-13 15:46:19

Actually I agree that job creation is possible.

However there is no doubt that low-paid work is massively affected by immigration, since immigrants coming from a country like Poland will quadruple their back-home wages on UK NMW.

I don't think it's true that immigrants are necessarily underskilled, but what you will find is that with no UK work history you are going to struggle to get well-paid work, at least for a few years. Also foreign professional qualifications are not necessarily useful in the UK labour market.

For me the more fundamental problem is that we have a housing market that functions only with no net zero population growth, yet have absorbed several million foreign immigrants into the UK.

There are certainly employment areas directly impacted by immigration in terms of wages, studies have shown that immigration benefits the wealthy, but depresses wages at the low end.

"Over the period considered, estimates suggest that immigration held wages back by 0.7p per hour at the 10th percentile, contributed about 1.5p per hour to wage growth at the median and slightly more than 2p per hour at the 90th percentile."

Basically immigration makes the rich richer, and the poor poorer.

When you consider that the rich will tend to own their homes, and that over the course of the largest net migration in UK history, after 1997, that real house prices doubled, you can see that those who had, are much better off, since they owned their homes, which are now worth twice as much relative to their real wages (which have also increased), whereas those at the bottom, who don't own homes are worse off, with lower real wages, and housing affordability which, in real terms, is half what it was in 1997.

PatPig Fri 03-May-13 15:49:06

Hullygully, I have ancestors - we all share a common ancestor if it comes to that, but it's a very weak argument to say that because some rich British person did something in say India several centuries ago, that is somehow correlated with the arrival of people from say Poland today.

FreyaSnow Fri 03-May-13 15:51:02

Thanks PatPig for posting that explanation. Do you know what impact immigration has on social mobility?

wordfactory Fri 03-May-13 15:57:18

Immigration does indeed cause wealth creation, but not among the poor. They just become poorer and already depleted resources are stretched ever thinner.

It is shameful that the Labour party who profess to be the party of ordinary working people have not tackled this issue due tio their airy fairy, primrose hill, middle class intelligensia take on the world!

Hullygully Fri 03-May-13 16:01:23

<weeps, not in a good way>

Wibblypiglikesbananas Fri 03-May-13 16:03:57

This is an excellent read if you're looking for some facts, as opposed to hype and propaganda.

wordfactory Fri 03-May-13 16:07:06

wibbly there is no doubt that immigration benefits those us who are wealthy and living in the south east. It has made my life more pleasant and interesting in a thousand ways.

But we have to accept I think that these benefits have ben to the detriment to many working class areas.

slug Fri 03-May-13 16:09:28

That's not what I meant wordfactory (if your comment was directed at me) One of the reasons I loathe UKIP (apart from their dismissal of my contribution to the UK economy) is their policy on maternity and sick pay.

The 'jobsworth' comment was bout a variety of British workers who I have encountered who seem to think that they deserve a job and all the pay and benefits that come with it without actually needing to do any actual work. I've worked in a few countries in my time and it's a particular British phenomenon as far as I can see. Perversely, it's these people who seem to be the ones who are always complaining about the foreigners taking British jobs.

lemonmuffin Fri 03-May-13 16:14:40

'Do you not have any antecedents Patpig, or any sense of the sweep of history and interconnectedness of past and present?'

Yes Patpig. Do you not realise that you and your children have to pay for all of your ancestors' behaviour and all the sins of this entire country over the past several hundred years? And stop complaining about it aswell. And be grateful.

Interconnectedness is much more important.

Wibblypiglikesbananas Fri 03-May-13 16:15:50

wordfactory - you might accept that, I certainly don't! (And I grew up in a small Yorkshire market town, the kind of area I imagine you're referring to, and so far as I could see, the immigrants who made this particular area their home during the 1950s and later have only benefitted the local community.)

FreyaSnow Fri 03-May-13 16:19:16

I've looked at the description of that book and the first few reviews. It doesn't seem to address the issues of the UK. If there is a strong argument for or against current levels of immigration, it should be possible to make them here, or link to sensible and concise arguments.

The current situation of children in my own family (some of whom are the children of recent immigrants and some of whom are not, some of whom are white English and some of whom are not) is that even with the required grades and experience, they're going to struggle to find low paid jobs while young, are going to struggle to enter the professions they want to enter when older and then even if they do, are going to struggle to afford to buy a two bedroom house at an age when they are still fertile.

Are the current levels of immigration going to make things better or worse for millions of young people like them? It is largely irrelevant if the economy grows if all the wealth is concentrated at the top and many ordinary people held back by class and ethnic prejudice still can't access things like a decent job they've worked towards or a house.

RubyOnRails Fri 03-May-13 16:19:58

It's simple bloody maths. If people could ignore the race related aspect and focus on x resources, y people, this would never have been the problem it is now. And, yeah, too much immigration.

RubyOnRails Fri 03-May-13 16:20:34

I realised I'm way behind on the thread lol

lemonmuffin Fri 03-May-13 16:20:50

That was a bit of satire for those who may not get it.

FreyaSnow Fri 03-May-13 16:23:39

The colonial argument seems highly dubious because we are going to continue to want to take in people based on compassion when they are seeking asylum. Hopefully we feel as much compassion for people of all countries in avoiding torture and persecution and don't somehow think we should feel less compassion to those who aren't from former colonies.

wordfactory Fri 03-May-13 16:25:20

wibbly if you go back to Yorkshire now and look at the factories that are left you will find they are now employing foreign workers on short term contracts.

Workers who are prepared to work without sick pay, maternity leave etc.

Local people can no longer afford to work there.

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 03-May-13 16:27:41

I'm not racist.

I just hate all these foreign folk working in the shops these days.

Bleddy foreigners.

RooneyMara Fri 03-May-13 16:35:20

I hate people who act like arseholes regardless of their skin colour, race, nationality or religion.

There are too many arseholes around, for sure. But I wouldn't have thought there was any sort of weighting in terms of the above attributes.

We have an Indian neighbour who can be a bit of a git. But his wife is amazing. We also have a white, British neighbour who pisses me off something rotten, and others who are brilliant. And we have some Polish neighbours who I think are fantastic.

I don't give a shit where they come from, only how they behave. There may be some cultural factors that contribute to these things - but equally, in terms of where these people are from. 'Our' cultural issues are no better than those of someone from Asia or Eastern Europe.

I mean God preserve us from white people like Ricky Gervais. And Farage. And Cameron.

morebeta but that is what the UK does, for non-EU immigrants. The barriers are quite high. The visa alone costs more than £1,000.

The UK is not allowed to impose such barriers for EU immigrants, but there's no real way around that short of leaving the EU, which would be a pretty dramatic thing to do.

PatPig Fri 03-May-13 16:37:15

Actually the UK chose to let in all the new Eastern European countries while other countries refused.

helenaconhambarter Fri 03-May-13 16:37:53

I'm not sure which bit doesn't makes sense seeker - my post or the situation? grin
I was merely playing devil's advocate in response to your original question. I gave an example of a case which, in my opinion, answered that question - Abu Qatada is an immigrant insisting on his rights in defiance of British Law and getting what he wants, which is to stay in the UK despite the fact that he should not be here.

MrsDeVere Fri 03-May-13 16:38:55

I doubt UKIP are even that bothered about the real issues around immigration.

They just know its an issue they can spout about and get people to listen.
So they do.

If they thought the lack of accessible tango dancing lessons was a political hot potato they would be pushing that as their main agenda.

As long as I can remember the sky has been falling down as far as immigration is concerned.

It didn't in the 50s, 60, 70s, 80s and 90s, so excuse me if I don't run around with my apron over my face fearing we are all going to sink into the sea under the weight of all the foreigners.

Nice to see the self defensive 'if you say a word you get called racist' and 'guardian reading, Primrose Hill blah blah' comments are out of the way so soon in the 'debate' though hmm

PatPig Fri 03-May-13 16:44:01

Actually the recent immigration since 1997 is historically unprecedented, certainly not in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s or 090s.

moogy1a Fri 03-May-13 16:48:02

There has never been such an influx of immigrants as in the last 10 - 20 years.

MrsDeVere Fri 03-May-13 16:49:31

Still can't get over excited about it.
Still think most of it is hysterical and fueled by political agendas
Still think UKIP are a bunch of bigots in leisure suits.

This country has always had high levels of immigration. We like to take what we want from other countries and then have a good old whinge when we don't get our own way.


FreyaSnow Fri 03-May-13 16:50:12

The fact that people have worried about an issue fo 60 years says nothing at all about whether or not the current situation is something we should be worrying about.

Are people just going to make up their minds on the following premises:

1. I'm uncomfortable around people who are different to me. So immigration is bad,
2. I think some people are racists, so immigration is good.

Both arguments are surely not very helpful.

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 03-May-13 16:51:59

I must point out I was not being serious in case anyone doesnt know me and reports me for being Enoch Powell.

Dawndonna Fri 03-May-13 16:52:48

Pat I'd be interested in seeing where you get your figures from.
From various articles it would appear that Pret in fact only employs 31% from ethnic minorities. That's a whole 69% that would be british, then.

To answer some points in this thread, some interesting stats from an LSE study:

The UK has a lower share of immigrants in its total population (10.2%) than Australia (25%), Germany (12.9%) or the United States (13.6%).

Immigrants, on average, are less likely to be in social housing than people born in the UK, even when the immigrant is from a developing country.

There are potential economic benefits associated with migration, especially to fill gaps in the UK labour market – where there are shortages of workers, whether highor low-skilled. While there may be costs to particular groups, there is little evidence of an overall negative impact on jobs or wages.

Many new immigrants – those who have been in the country for less than a year – are not primarily from the poorest countries, but from developed countries or wealthier emerging countries like South Africa.

Unlike in the United States, where the skill composition of immigrants is tilted towards the unskilled, the skill composition of immigrants to the UK is more biased towards skilled workers.

A recent study of the fiscal impact of immigration of workers from the eight EU accession countries of Central and Eastern Europe (the A8) concludes that because this group of immigrants are more likely to be in work and make less use of welfare and other public services, their net contribution is positive.

Nevertheless, there may be some downward pressure in the low wage labour market where (despite their higher relative education levels) many new immigrants tend to find work.

There has been some concern that rising immigration puts extra pressure on schools and on the housing market. These are areas in which there is still little hard evidence.

MrsDeVere Fri 03-May-13 16:54:46

In answer to your question


I make up my mind based on what I believe and what I see.
I am not worried about too much immigration and that is not because I am a. deluded or the guardian or c. live in a mc bubble.

Just in case that was coming up from someone next.

FreyaSnow Fri 03-May-13 16:55:57

Dawn Donna, that doesn't even make sense. Lots of British people are members of ethnic minority groups.

It seems to me you can't really win, if you're an immigrant.

If you don't work, you're scrounging off the British taxpayer... if you do work, you're taking British jobs.

MrsDeVere Fri 03-May-13 16:57:22

I wouldn't waste your breath.

It will all be dismissed or disbelieved.

Thats what happens.

If someone is determined that there has been a wave/flood/influx/tsunami of immigration, the likes we have never seen in all our born days, that immigrants live on benefits and steal jobs from the natives (both at the same time)

they will carry on believing it.


Because they want to.

Dawndonna Fri 03-May-13 16:57:28

I was refering to another point saying that only 18% of Pret staff were british.
This sort of scaremongering is ridiculous. That was the point I was trying to make.

Lifeofpoo Fri 03-May-13 16:59:33

I hardly ever post, but had to add my voice to the no camp. There is not too much immigration, just too much ignorance, hatred and blind attacking of easy targets. Very sad.

FreyaSnow Fri 03-May-13 17:00:20

DB, I can see there is an economic benefit to having migrants doing skilled jobs where there is a skills gap. How does that help children in my family? Doesn't it mean the Government has no incentive to train the current population to fill the skills gap, meaning my children are less likely to receive educational opportunities that would allow them to get a skilled job?

FreyaSnow Fri 03-May-13 17:01:37

But you haven't made the point DD. You've just presented an equally meaningless statistic.

PatPig Fri 03-May-13 17:03:01

"While branches outside London are about 40 per cent British, the proportion of UK staff across the company is only 18 per cent."
"The number of nationalities working for Pret is currently 106, with Poles, at 13 per cent, Colombians, 10 per cent, and Italians, seven per cent, the best represented"

In London Pret a Manger branches are in many cases 100% foreign staffed. Outside London it's 'merely' a majority that are foreign. A representative figure would I guess be around 90% British, as opposed to the true figure - 18%.

PatPig Fri 03-May-13 17:04:13
Viviennemary Fri 03-May-13 17:04:41

I think the UK is at capacity as regarding demand for schooling and health services. Quite whose fault that is I wouldn't like to say.

dogsandcats Fri 03-May-13 17:05:02

How many immigrants is enough?
Another 3 million or 30 million?

MrsDeVere I know, you're probably right, but I can't quite give up yet smile

I'm also really not worried about the apocalyptic scenarios.

I'm not sure you can even say the current levels are historically unprecedented, given that the huge influxes of migrants during the colonial era were not really tracked or recorded.

From the 1600s to the First World War, the world experienced incredible globalisation -- much more similar to today. It's the 20th century that is really quite anomolous, due to the massive impact of the world wars and decolonisation.

TheSecondComing Fri 03-May-13 17:07:29

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PatPig Fri 03-May-13 17:10:08

The level of insight on here is profound.

FreyaSnow Fri 03-May-13 17:13:54

The impact of colonisation was disastrous for many people both in the UK and in the colonies. I don't know if I'd consider starvation, clearance, workhouses, industrial revolution style working conditions, whole families living in cellars or on the streets and the worst state of health that Britain has ever seen are apocalyptic, but I don't want to reproduce them now. I doubt any if those things have much to do with levels of immigration now, one way or the other.

changeforthebetter Fri 03-May-13 17:16:43


At the place that I work, we have over 40 nationalities. If immigration was curtailed, we'd be fucked. It's such a specialist area, that there are literally two or three people in the world capable of doing some of the jobs here.

If the UK wants to be at the forefront of technology, we have to accept that that will mean people coming here to do specialist jobs. If we are successful in the specialist areas, there will be more jobs all round. That might mean people come here to get non specialist jobs, competing with UK citizens. I'm ok with that, as it's a sign of a healthy economy.

I think it's a great thing, actually.

Freya that's a good question.

I think the problem is a collision of politics and economics.

Politically, the government would prefer to train its own citizens and give them the skilled jobs. But economically, they are not willing to put the necessary money into it. I don't know if this is because there are immigrants available, or because education funding is just not generally seen as a high enough priority.

FreyaSnow Fri 03-May-13 17:24:30

DB, which itself creates particular patterns of immigration. There is an incentive to come to the UK and work, but no incentive for skilled workers to have children here, because those children will have less opportunity as British educated than they would do if they were educated elsewhere. It makes Britain into a workplace rather than a society.

HollyBerryBush Fri 03-May-13 17:26:07

Well, unless I've got hold of the wrong end of the stick the whole EU thing allowed EU citizens the right to move freely through member states and settle? Common currency (nearly) and a common passport.

Take that back to the immigration topic that gets everyone riled.

We need immigrants, both professional and unskilled. However unfettered immigration is not a good thing. I have no problem with economic migrants either, they want to work and establish a life within the UK and contribute.

The problem comes with the minority who are (a) disrespectful of our laws (b) operate criminal activities (c) think the Uk is a benefit utopia.

And I know someone is going to pluck some figures out to say (a) (b) and (c) are rare, and I agree they probably are a rare occurrence, but nonetheless they do occur. I could link umpteen news reports to East European prostitution rings, Chinese triads and chain gangs (thinking cockle pickers) and Somali rapists and so forth. Then you have the knock on that they cannot be deported - as I believe they should be because they have not adhered to the laws of this country - because of some Human Rights infraction, usually they have a child with a British born woman, which secured their right to stay in the UK, or some other whimsy - such as the Mulsim rapist who successfully argued against his deportation because he had a tattoo of a semi naked woman and would thus be stoned in his own country.

It is those situations that get people riled, and when you have successive press stories about a particular country, or nationals of a country, or indeed live on the edge of a 'ghetto' style area and you see the youth gangs of those countries re-establishing themselves for lawless purposes - because authority is frightened to say "No! this style of living is wrong, integrate" for fear of being called racist.

I have no issue with anyone who wants to come, work, contribute and enrich my country at all.

Britiain is a migrant population from Romans, to Vikings, to Franks, to Normans, to Huguenots, and in recent history (post WW2) the influx of Jamaicans, Asians, and Poles.

Immigration is what makes Britain vibrant - but it cannot go unfettered.

We are an island, we are sinking under the weight. In the 1600's the population was 4 million, today it is 64 million. That is due to longevity of the population and advances in medcine.

PatPig Fri 03-May-13 17:47:13

Enjoyingscience, a few thousand foreigners in your narrow field of work does not mean we have to admit 3 million foreigners to staff KFCs and car washes.

Rich countries have the ability to pick and choose the foreigners they want.

infamouspoo Fri 03-May-13 17:50:47

And so we ignore corporations not paying taxes and bank bailouts costing trillions and harp on about immigrants taking our jerbs.
The media have done a grand job on people <weep>
But, looking locally. Immigrants are here working and paying taxes. Use the fucking taxes on local infrastructure instead of bailing out whatever bank/war/corp is whatever Govt buddy of the month. Then it works.

infamouspoo Fri 03-May-13 17:52:06

oh, and dh is an immigrant and Ive been one in his country. Jerb stealing n all. Thats what you get in a global economy.

OrbisNonSufficit Fri 03-May-13 17:56:27

Just for shits and giggles, perhaps those on the thread who seem to think it's easy to get into the UK as an immigrant can do the UKBA points calculator to see if you'd be eligible were you not lucky enough to be born here.

NB this obviously doesn't apply to EU citizens, which may clarify the debate.

FreyaSnow Fri 03-May-13 17:58:15

Well it isn't what you get in a global economy. We get to make decisions about what level of immigration we want to have. That doesn't mean there will be no immigration at all or that people will never be able to migrate from Britain and live elsewhere.

PatPig Fri 03-May-13 18:07:05

Orbis, there are many classes of immigrants.

For instance, it's common among sections of the South Asian community to marry a cousin from 'back home' in Pakistan or Bangladesh. As a result, the visa restrictions for marriage are quite tough, because of this practice, which to most British people in the UK is alien.

Not tough enough to prevent it happening because that would violate people's human rights, but it's more expensive and time-consuming than most would assume, but because of this unfortunate cousin marriage custom, the net result is still a lot of immigration of immigrants who probably would not come near the top of 'most desirable immigrants' surveys in terms of adaptability, English language skills, employment prospects and so on. But there's basically nothing whatsoever we can do, except somehow persuade people to marry within the UK, adapt to British customs (secularize), and so on.

Points-based schemes account for only a small % of immigration to British.

newgirl Fri 03-May-13 18:09:52

A labour mp on news today said labour had dropped the ball on immigration - politicians know what this ukip vote is about. Councillors are powerless anyway on big issues but this will have an impact on gov policy as the conservatives don't want to
Lose next election

PatPig Fri 03-May-13 18:11:58

Labour didn't so much drop the ball as invent the ball game.

Misspixietrix Fri 03-May-13 18:12:14

moogy So it's okay for British Immigrants to contribute to Spains' Economy but it's not alright for Immigrants from other Countries to come and contribute to ours? Is that the sort of thing you mean?...

I'm leaving this conversation now as already see how the thread is turning, all Immigrants are bad, lazy, scroungers or taking our Jobs. [no comment] ~

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Fri 03-May-13 18:17:38

As opposed to how you would prefer it,Misspixietrix all immigrants are wonderful, all pay taxes,here to escape torture,enhance our cultural landscape(no comment).

Wibblypiglikesbananas Fri 03-May-13 18:19:24

wordfactory - not my experience at all actually. Though maybe you're in a different area from where I'm taking about, Yorkshire being the biggest UK county after all!

Personally, if I'm a victim of a crime, I don't care if the perpetrator is British or not. It sucks no matter what.

And given the vast majority of immigrants are not criminals, I'm not sure how relevant it is that some small minority are. Many of them are deported, we just tend to hear about the ridiculous cases where people aren't.

Some interesting tidbits on immigration and crime (LSE again!):

Crime in neighbourhoods that have experienced mass immigration from eastern Europe over the past 10 years has fallen significantly, according to research that challenges a widely held view over the impact of foreigners in the UK.

Rates of burglary, vandalism and car theft all dropped following the arrival of migrants from Poland, the Czech Republic, Hungary and seven other countries after they joined the European Union in 2004. But the opposite was found to be the case in areas that experienced an influx of asylum seekers from the late 1990s onwards, where rates of property crime were "significantly higher". In addition, immigration has no impact on levels of violent crime on British streets, according to the analysis.

Experts from the London School of Economics set out to examine if the common assertion that immigrants cause crime was corroborated by statistics, after noting a "paucity of credible empirical evidence" to support the claim.... Brian Bell, a research fellow at the London School of Economics, said: "The view that foreigners commit more crime is not true. The truth is that immigrants are just like natives: if they have a good job and a good income they don't commit crime."

The findings come days after a report revealed that the UK is becoming more peaceful with rates of violent crime and murder falling more rapidly in the past decade than in any other western European country. The UK Peace Index, produced by the Institute for Economics and Peace, found that violent crime rate fell by a quarter between 2003 and 2012, a period of relatively high immigration.

Misspixietrix Fri 03-May-13 18:25:56

<sighs> yes things that's exactly how I'd prefer it hmm. All Immigrants are not wonderful and all Immigrants are not bad. UKIP however suggest different ~

No. The votes which UKIP has received are not evidence of too much immigration, merely that there are many narrow-minde people voting in a scarily ill-informed way.

Talkinpeace Fri 03-May-13 18:30:19

Immigrants like me pay more than half of the tax take in the UK (because a lot of over remunerated city types are immigrants)
If we all went away, your tax rate would increase.

Immigrants like my less educated cousins pick the vast bulk of your fruit and veg.
Grow it yourself or be willing to pay significant extra for your food.

Immigrants clean hospitals, schools and offices.
Immigrants have significantly lower rates of unemployment than the indigenous population.
Not because they "steal jobs" but because they are not entitled to benefits so get up off their arses.

And remember that the Empire comprised the English being immigrants all over the world and taking jobs money and land from everybody else.

What goes around comes around.

Misspixietrix Fri 03-May-13 18:30:22

TheHouseofMirth Precisely! ~

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Fri 03-May-13 18:32:57

"And so we ignore corporations not paying taxes and bank bailouts costing trillions and harp on about immigrants taking our jerbs"

Yawn. No one can mention anything because of Starbucks et al. Getting deeply tedious, now. Benefit reform? What about the big corporations. Immigration? What about the big corporations. Crappy weather? What about the big corporations. Dull,dull,dull.

Talkinpeace Fri 03-May-13 18:34:10

I have just completed Naturalisation and getting my UK passport.
It has taken five years and cost well over £1000.
The UK paperwork is NOT friendly to immigrants.

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Fri 03-May-13 18:34:17

are many narrow-minde people voting in a scarily ill-informed way.

All those bloody thickos. How very dare they.

MumnGran Fri 03-May-13 18:36:03

I am almost reluctant to comment again, as this has become so inflamed. The 9 pages of posts are reflective of the deeply held views on all sides, and I suspect that the heated nature of such arguments will never be extinguished. Wherever this debate rears its head there seems to be a reluctance to find middle ground ...on whichever side of the fence one sits, and at every level. People are simply so passionate about the subject and neither "camp" (I searched for a better word and couldn't find one - sorry) seems able to regard the others views as anything other than either "fundamentally prejudiced" or "liberal at all costs". Never the twain shall meet.

I have no idea of the long term answer to achieving a consensus, but I sadly noted Patpig's comment (way up-thread) ".....then the country would change completely".
Actually, Britain has long since changed beyond all recognition from the country I grew up in. Older people (as commented somewhere up-thread ..... I can't locate the post at the moment) do perhaps reflect a less tolerant attitude, may indeed be the "scared generation" .....because the world they are growing old in is not the one they expected to grow old in. The changes of the last 30 years have been more radical than anything since the industrial revolution .... in every sphere, not simply who lives here - what colour they may be - what their religion is - or whether they eat brown bread or white (and when it comes to defining people, you can use the bread difference as happily as any other difference as far as I am concerned - they are all equally idiotic)

What is interesting (and I say this without prejudice of any kind!! ... other than maybe the white bread/brown bread bigotry I hold) is that at no point were the voting populace asked whether they wished to become a multi-cultural society. It occurred as a result of a combination of policies by various political parties. Nor were we asked if we wanted the Channel Tunnel built...or whether flooding the marketplace with cheap goods was a good idea...or whether we wanted more preservatives added into food.

Whichever government we put into power, however long they served, whether we wanted them or not, our world has changed. One may applaud that we are now an m-c nation, or abhor it. One can eat white bread, brown, organic or made from floor sweepings!! Neither attitude changes the situation one iota. We live in the country we live in, and it is the way it is: multi-cultural to the core, and bread choices everywhere you turn.

Talkinpeace Fri 03-May-13 18:37:13

keep posting.
WE CAN turn this thread.

newgirl Fri 03-May-13 18:53:34

There are 4 mums I know with kids at my dd school. Husbands in low skill jobs. The mums don't socialise with other parents or attend school functions, dont reply to party invites and two don't speak English. It would help a lot if they tried to join in more. It's an over subscribed school with kids whose parents and grandparents went who can't get in. It does annoy people. Not every immigrant is a high skilled scientist adding £ in taxes.

andagain Fri 03-May-13 18:58:15

There is a reason for that good old saying "History always repeats itself".

When there is economic downturn and times are hard it is always easier, (for incompetent governments as well as narrow minded people who refuse to read beyond inflamatory headlines), to blame the "other" who in most cases happen to be immigrants.

Nazism flourished in the time of economic downturn during the 1930s depression and apparently it was all down to Jews and Romas as well as other minorities?!

Those of you supporting UKIP: if you haven't yet, then dig a bit deeper into articles and blogs written on this ghastly group and their views on women, disable people or anyone who is not white British (funnily enough that prat Farage himself is of French descent) . And those of you who have done this research and still support this vile bunch - you should be ashamed of yourselves.

dogsandcats Fri 03-May-13 18:59:03

I was rather on the fence on this issue.
Having read some of the posts [rather hurriedly, havent got much time atm], I am coming down in favour of we now have enough immigrants.

Some of the things that posters pro immigration are posting strike me as wrong.

For instance, 1 poster has said there is no evidence for additional pressure on education.
You have got to be joking surely hmm
With so many nationalities languages spoken in schools, just think of the extra resources that alone takes.
And I dont think anyone can say there has been no additional pressures on the NHS either.

MumnGran Fri 03-May-13 19:00:47

I have a friend who works extremely hard in taking adult ed out into the community and has an absolute commitment to engaging with women with this profile .....the greatest difficulty is cultural. Many have husbands who forbid external contact, and the community leaders can be very resistant.
The odd one or two women who have emerged as 'leading lights' .... and potential voluntary teachers within their own communities .... are frequently subjected to strong peer disapproval.

It is far from an easy situation to unravel.

dogsandcats Fri 03-May-13 19:01:33

Oh. And I dont need a study or research quoted at me thank you.
A cursory glance at Britian is sometimes all that is needed.

MumnGran Fri 03-May-13 19:04:23

sorry ... should have referenced my post to newgirl. Just can't type fast enough to keep up sad

newgirl Fri 03-May-13 19:08:09

I agree with mummgran - I think the mums want to make friends but are not able to for many reasons. It's not easy for them either. Sschool places are a huge issue in our city that gets worse each year. We have 30 languages in school - it's not a local baby boom!

FreyaSnow Fri 03-May-13 19:23:40

Talkinpeace: 'What goes around comes around.'

Are you saying that due to Britain (not England, but Britain) having an empire, it is justifiable that anything done in the name of colonisation is now entirely acceptable to do to the general British population, you and your children?

If not, what relevance does our former role as a colonial power have to do with what decisions should or should not be made about immigration now?

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 03-May-13 19:57:25

Some scarily xenophobic posts on this thread

MrsDeVere Fri 03-May-13 20:02:56

I don't think a cursory glance at anything is a good way of assessing a situation
Particularly one as complex as this

But I suppose that is how UKIP gain power
People taking a cursory glance at an issue and then voting for those muppets.

Talkinpeace Fri 03-May-13 20:03:15

Many of the people now in the UK with bugger all UK language skills
- which as a first generation problem I have a REAL problem with
are actually nothing to do with the EU : they link to India, Pakistan and Bangladesh in 1947.

The more recent immigrants - particularly the Poles are an undeniable economic positive.

RE : Lanuages in schools : some of the WORST offenders are British born Muslims.
DH was recently at a school in a MASSIVE immigrant area : the new arrivals pay for tutors to get their kids 'home counties' accents by the time they are ten.
By the time thay are in the 6th form they will be as invisible as I am and their parents will be on 40% tax.

UKIP need to read more

dogsandcats Fri 03-May-13 20:14:44

I meant that a cursory glance at schools, NHS etc is all that is needed in this circumstance to establish the pressures on them concerning this subject.

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 03-May-13 20:25:52

Talkinpeace, I find that post offensive

aftermay Fri 03-May-13 20:30:13

New girl - why does it annoy people that four children attend school whose mums, shock horror, don't want to socialise with you. Having read your comments, neither would I!

What a fucking depressing thread. Hate away, people. If it makes you feel goodsad

Lazyjaney Fri 03-May-13 20:30:34

Immigration is a complex issue. Im for it overall, I've had nothing but good experiences from it.

But, this election proves a large number of British voters are worried about how it works right now, and not 50 or 150 or 500 years ago.

Ignoring it is the reason the 3 main parties are in the situation they are in.

Continuing to ignore the issue and to call those questioning it "racists" and "xenophobes" just shows minds more closed as those you are accusing. (They are voting democratically let us remember, and this is not a one party state with only one view allowed)

Talkinpeace Fri 03-May-13 20:34:10

please clarify
the whole post is based on my experience as a first generation economic migrant
DH's wide experience with schools over the UK

why is what I said offensive?

HollyBerryBush Fri 03-May-13 20:38:05

talkinpeace as I say .... I walk like you, I look like you, I talk like you but you'd be horrified to know I am not you! I quite like listening to the masses on their perceived immigration rants.

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 03-May-13 20:38:38

Your attitude towards Muslims is seriously offensive.


nailak Fri 03-May-13 20:41:15

Muslim is not a nationality so I don't know why the word has come up in this thread? The fact it has shows islamaphobia.

Few points dogsandcats children who are fluent in multiple languages have better outcomes at age 11 then children who can only speak English, and no specialist teaching is usually given to children who enter primary with no English? so I do not see how this is a drain, in fact it is something which boosts results.

As for these women who speak no English and don't contribute anything, I think this is a feminist point concerning valuing the unpaid work and caring responsibilities that women do in society.

My best friends Mum came from Somalia when my friend was about 7 or eight, she came with 5 of her own kids plus her half brother who was a kid. She never worked, she did however raise 6 kids, of which one is now a policeman, one a doctor, one works for MENCAP and so on, she remains at home which enables both her daughters and their husbands to work. She also helps people in need a lot, with food, support, babysitting. Would you say she hasn't contributed to society? btw her husband is a taxi driver in another city as he moved to where the work was and supports her.

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 03-May-13 20:43:03

I agree nailak.

Talkinpeace Fri 03-May-13 20:44:13

you are conflating.

Do you deny that british women who happen tofollow the muslim faith have equal earning capacity as other groups?
or do you accept that in ghettos such as Leicester, benefits are claimed, often without the knowledge of the women -to maintain social segregation.

call me racist all you like, but immigrants are not the problem - UK citizens with deeply sexist social hierarchies are the REAL problem.

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 03-May-13 20:46:00

I don't tend to make sweeping and denigratory generalizations about entire sections of society thanks,Talkin,

Unlike some.

Babymamaroon Fri 03-May-13 20:46:07

Mumngran - my sentiments exactly.

nailak Fri 03-May-13 20:46:48

talkinpeace erm because there are many British born muslims on this thread who have no idea what you going on about.

In my Childrens centre before nursery families are advised to concentrate on the child being fluent in the home language as language skills are about more then which language you talk in, they are about having the skills to communicate effectively, it doesnt matter what language, once you have the skills English is easily picked up for children under 5 once in nursery, and this improves their outcomes at age 11. However if they focus on English under five, and the parents are not confident in it, the child will not effectively learn the skills of language, grammar, tenses etc but will learn broken English, and this will take longer to correct, also once past five language learning is done like an adult, so they are unlikely to ever be fluent in their home language which will worsen outcomes.

Talkinpeace Fri 03-May-13 20:49:10

we cross posted :

I utterly agree that some mothers have taken the opportunity of living in the UK to break free and sent their daughters to University too
the fact that FGM and sharia law have crept into the UK show that the tide flows both ways

and yes, Islam should not be the issue BUT : when you check the detailed statistics, the block on mums working makes it a cost to the UK taxpayer ...

nailak Fri 03-May-13 20:49:12

talkin peace, at least you admitting not all Muslims are immigrants which is a nice change to if you dont like our rules go back to where you came from...

nailak Fri 03-May-13 20:52:47

what block? i know plenty of muslim mums who work?

there is also me I don't work, however like I said this is about valuing unpaid work within society, people should have a choice to be SAHM unless they are Muslims, then their choice to be SAHMs then it is because of their religion and they need to break free?

what is your understanding of shariah law? in what ways has it crept in, and how have these had a negative impact on women? and what has that got to do with immigrants, because i thought you were talking about British born Muslims

Talkinpeace Fri 03-May-13 20:54:19

nailak fanjo

my point is that UKIP blame it all on "immigrants"
but the UK born - unlike me - have the brown faces that UKIP actually object to. SO they are just racists.
UKIP do not recognise that many, many immigrants - of all hair and skin colours - add to the tax and business take in this country
regardless of religion.

to to go back to the OP

the answer is
and if you think so, you need to read more.

ivykaty44 Fri 03-May-13 20:56:08

why though would people move to britian for benefits and NHS when there are much better paying benefits countries in the EU with better health care - I think uk come out about 8th so with 7 countries paying far better and the same rules apply why would they want to come here?

Talkinpeace Fri 03-May-13 20:57:01

they do not
the press are lying

JuliaScurr Fri 03-May-13 20:57:14

this is why UKIP are such bad news
now it's respectable to whitter about furriners

chillinwithmyyonis Fri 03-May-13 21:03:14

I love immigration, wouldn't have met my dp otherwise and he contributes far more to society than most of these idiots whinging about forriners. But in the near future we probably will emigrate and give two fingers to all you racist zenophobes out there (til we meet the next lot!).

mirry2 Fri 03-May-13 21:04:43

Moogila you are only saying what lots of people are thinking.

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 03-May-13 21:05:21 point is..your posts are seriously racist.

Talkinpeace Fri 03-May-13 21:10:53

please explain.
I did not realise I was, but am open minded to explanation.

but remember that observation of difference without prejudice is not racism :
my home country has overtly racist positive discrimination practices that I have to accept.
My rejection of them is that I think that any arse who discriminates on the basis of skin colour (or sex) deserves their business to hit the wall.

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 03-May-13 21:12:43

It's Friday..I CBA, maybe someone else will

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 03-May-13 21:13:33

Oh, your tripe about positive discrimination is bigoted as hell too.

dogsandcats Fri 03-May-13 21:17:36

re education.
People arrive here not being able to speak the language on a lot of occasions do they not, and also their children.
Their children do not, on the whole,need no help with the language do they?
Interpreters etc [dont exactly know who] need to be emploed do they not?
So the poster who is saying about children being fluent at 2 languages at least at age 11, has missed the 3-11 age group, no?
At first glance here on this thread, reading these posts, I still say some of them are way off are they not?

I have not had to seriously think about all this before.
I live in an area that only has a few immigrants. And I think the oppurtunity to vote UKIP has rarely arisen.
Certainly there was nowhere on my ballot paper this week.

SamraLee Fri 03-May-13 21:19:37

I'm an immigrant and I dislike having so many immigrants in England.

nailak Fri 03-May-13 21:20:31

talkinpeace it is your assumptions that are causing offence "block on mums working", british muslim women have lower earning capacity confused British Muslims do not teach their kids English as they dont care about their education, British Muslim women are so thick they dont know other people are claiming their benefits etc

Talkinpeace Fri 03-May-13 21:20:32

it may be friday but I'm from the USA.
Positive discrimination on race grounds is a fact at University level.
The reasons it was set up were as they were, but the link betweek skin hue and university entry serves nobodies long term interests.

and to get back to the OP,

can we agree that UKIP are arses and that 'immigrants' are NOT the problem?

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 03-May-13 21:20:38

Leave then, or be a hypocrite

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 03-May-13 21:21:20

My post was to Samra

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 03-May-13 21:22:17

Have never met anyone who bitches about 'positive discrimination' who isn't a bigot

newgirl Fri 03-May-13 21:24:46

I think if you move country it's good manners to learn the language I would not dream of moving to France etc without becoming fluent. It is a complete barrier. Good point about women having vital role in the home. But not mixing creates barriers of understanding.

nailak Fri 03-May-13 21:25:11

dogsandcats interpreters are not needed in infants and nursery! the kids pick up the language! maybe in years 5 and 6, I am a governor at a nursery where a lot of kids come with no English, their attainment on entry is lower in language as it is based on English, but their progress is around 2 sub levels a term where as on average 3 sub levels per YEAR is considered good.

On the whole children need NO help with the language at this age!

and it is not just people who arrive here, people who have been here who have kids born here, who are aware of childrens language development in the early years and who have educated themselves on the topic, choose to focus on a language apart from English in the home, as they know it is in the best interest of the child in the long run!

nailak Fri 03-May-13 21:27:11

newgirl the stock response to that is Brits abroad spain etc, but that would be too predictable! lol

what do you mean by barriers of understanding?

likeitorlumpit Fri 03-May-13 21:28:55

moogy1a if your british your not allowed to say jack shit with out being accused of something nowadays and people getting all hysterical .

Talkinpeace Fri 03-May-13 21:29:03

I'll admit to my face to face info being out of date by 10 year - my current suburb is very white
but in this city there is still a real problem with non integrated 'subcontinent' wives.
I'd be delighted to hear that it is diminishing.
I know that the hindus ans sikhs are belting at getting their kids through the systems. I assume the west indians and muslins are now on the case.

Obama is talking about restricing the rules at US colleges.
I'm not affected, just an observer.
and I'm not bitching : I'm a pro science bod - exclusion of good lateral thought is BAD for science.

ivy I'd say mostly because there are more jobs in the UK, even now (well, London and SE England anyway)

I live in France, which has better health care, more benefits, etc, but it is so much harder for immigrants to find jobs (and in my personal opinion, there is a lot more racism/intolerance of immigrants here).

I had to go to a day-long integration seminar here, it was with mostly African and Asian immigrants. When the lecturer said, 'In France, you cannot be discriminated against on the basis of your race, ethnicity or religion', the whole room just burst out laughing.

I'm not sure that would happen in the UK. And I know there are costs to immigration, but I think Brits really should be proud that so many people want to come to their country for a better life.

nailak Fri 03-May-13 21:31:32

you know what I have the same issue with some mums, and I dress like a Muslim, so I don't think it is anything to do with religion! lol

nailak Fri 03-May-13 21:32:58

you cannot be discriminated against but if you want to follow your religion you can be refused access to schooling or fined? how did he back that up exactly? I am confused

newgirl Fri 03-May-13 21:33:37

I think if we are all going to get along and not have ukip and other awful views then some communities need to be friendlier. The mums i know don't go to school fairs, fundrsusing, birthday parties, coffee mornings, or help at school. Our kids get on but the mums haven't mixed from reception. It feels unfriendly to me. No small talk about kids, what did you do today etc.

FreyaSnow Fri 03-May-13 21:34:39

TalkinPeace, I also think your comments are racist. Muslim British citizens are as much part of British life and culture as anybody else. It is now the case that we live in a multicultural society of which Muslim culture is part. I do not see why it is in the least bit unacceptable for mothers to stay at home and it seems entirely rational that parents should communicate with young children in the language the parents are most fluent in.

The issue of immigration is not one of multiculturalism. Britain already is multicultural. The issue of immigration is one of numbers of people and if we have the roads, hospitals, schools and houses to accommodate a larger population, plus issues of low population and jobs in some areas are very high population and jobs in others. It is also an issue of a gap between education of the British population and the job market in the UK. What the appropriate level of immigration is depends on how well we are able to deal with those issues. It has nothing to do with Muslims who are already part of the fabric of UK life and who have made a huge cultural contribution which makes the UK the place it is today, regardless of whether or not they are individually in paid employment or have caring responsibilities.

newgirl Fri 03-May-13 21:35:39

I agree that Brits in Spain should learn Spanish - not the best representation of our country.

mirry2 Fri 03-May-13 21:38:27

Immigration and the influx of EU citizens has changed our UK urban cultural landscape in the last 10 years or so and it has happened far too fast for many people. This is the problem and it's not right to call people racists just because they are finding it difficult to adjust.

newgirl Fri 03-May-13 21:40:27

Freya - Gap between education and population? Sure for surgeons but really for all jobs??!

nailak I know. Hence the laughter!

I think people underestimate how hard it is to integrate into a new society, especially where there are language issues. Even with the best will in the world, it is not always easy. It can take years to learn the language as an adult, and yet people assume immigrants just aren't bothering to learn, rather than understanding that maybe it's just taking them a while.

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 03-May-13 21:42:18

I don't blame the communities for not wanting to mix more having read some comments on here and knowing the general climate of opinion in the UK just now

aftermay Fri 03-May-13 21:44:24

Newgirl - you may be on to something but I find your worldview very narrow. Not everyone's life revolves around coffee mornings at school and fundraising and little chats at the school gates. Imagine thus if you can, it's not everyone's cup of tea. They may have different support systems in place and not rely on exchanges of a few stock phrases to make their day. Open your mind. School life seen the way you do may just not appeal. Or, god forbid, they may even be working mums and not have time for it.

newgirl Fri 03-May-13 21:44:51

You're describing prejudice fanjo

I'm sorry but I can't take anyone seriously who says positive discrimination. That's such a Fox News inanity.

aftermay Fri 03-May-13 21:46:24

Mirry2 - but it IS a racist attitude. Speed of adjustment has nothing to do with it. If you don't see you fellow human being as your equal because of race you are racist. What term would you prefer?

Pan Fri 03-May-13 21:48:47

Surely this thread is being sponsored by the UKIP? To be able to say (at last) that xenophobia and racism is now a main stream item, to practice, because we can do it on MN.

newgirl -- do you know if they speak English, these mums?

My French is very poor and I admit I don't mix as much as I'd like at the playground and school -- I just can't communicate enough. I am trying to improve but it's very slow going.

Maybe they are just uncomfortable rather than unfriendly.

FreyaSnow Fri 03-May-13 21:49:39

I think there is a definitely a gap in that many jobs are being filled by immigrants because there aren't enough educational opportunities for young people.

The example given on here was dentistry. There are apparently not enough British born dentists, so the NHS is recruiting from elsewhere. A reason given for this is that some British born dentists go into private work not the NHS.

This seems absurd reasoning to me. It is the case that some dentists will leave the country, some will work in the NHS and some will go private. That is hardly an unknown the Government could be unaware of. As a country, we should be educating young people properly for all three potential routes. There are far more young people with the correct qualifications and work experience than the numbers of dentistry places available at university. Obviously, we need to train more dentists.

Or are we just going to make other countries train dentists for us and leave lots of our young people without career choices?

I am sure this applies to many jobs. To argue otherwise it essentially saying that immigration is good for other nationalities, but the British should be denied educational opportunities so they are unable to migrate themselves or compete in a global job market.

aftermay Fri 03-May-13 21:50:00

Brits in Spain who don't learn Spanish are just 'not the best representation of our country'. Oh, the loveable rogues. Of course it should be a million times easier for a foreigner to learn the language here and bloody integrate or else they're just not making the effort and shouldn't be here at all. A bit of hypocrisy going on.

newgirl Fri 03-May-13 21:50:39

But they are not working mums. I see people happy to take and not give back. Is 4 years not long enough to learn basic language?

aftermay Fri 03-May-13 21:53:55

People happy to take and not give back come in all races and colours. Have you looked around at your own family and friends? Or are they all worthy?

mirry2 Fri 03-May-13 21:54:31

Aftermay you are spouting rubbish and must have a serious chip on your shoulder if you believe that speed of adjustment equals not seeing your fellow human being as your equal.

Pan Fri 03-May-13 21:56:17

fwiw I'd spent this morning in the home of a family of Romanians, with an interpreter ( as I don't speak their dialect of Roma...oddly.) The two adult males work. This family has no claim on state benefits. The males pay taxes. And this is a random example of the 'hated/feared' Romanians. Two male workers, three females and two children under 5.

UKIP's nightmare - because they are decent people who are not British but are living here.

nailak Fri 03-May-13 21:56:35

but what do you mean by mixing? and how do you know because a mother at school doesnt talk to you they arent mixing? i mean there are plenty of mothers at school i dont talk to, do you reckon they all think i am not mixing? I don't normally stop to chat at school gates coz i am in a rush to pick up my other kids.

It is the assumptions. you dont know what they do in their own time, in their own homes. We have members in the maternity services liason committee who dont speak much english, yet here they are working to shape services and making things better for the community. my sis in law dont speak much english yet she was working as a childminder for her non muslim non asian next door neighbour,

I thought it was interesting, in one of the reports I linked earlier, that immigrants arriving today are likely to have more years of schooling than their British-born counterparts.

And yes, the more education and training the better, even for entry-level work.

newgirl Fri 03-May-13 21:58:35

Boring aftermay - the thread is about the rise of ukip. I don't agree with them. I think any immigrant anywhere should try and integrate. End of. Our city school has families from 30 countries - most make loads of effort. Some make zero.

Interesting about dentistry - I think it's a trend - I wonder if Brits are favouring arts etc

aftermay Fri 03-May-13 22:00:17

Mirry2 - you still didn't say what you'd prefer to be called then. I suggested racist to be just the right term.

newgirl Fri 03-May-13 22:03:42

Nailak - we are in same playground every day - they don't mix with anyone in the school. They look isolated to me sadly not as you describe.

Bit of a hijack, but surely Nigel Farage must have had immigrants in his background somewhere with a name like that?

Our country is made up of immigrants from other countries, which is what makes it great imo.

Trouble is, so many people want the country to be the same as it was when they were children, and as far as I know it's never been like that; the country is constantly evolving and always will.

newgirl -- yes, it can take more than four years to learn enough language to 'mix' easily with strangers.

I have been in France for two years. My French is still pretty bad, I am not very good at languages generally and I don't have a ton of time to work on it. It is not too bad in a classroom setting, but in real life where people speak very quickly and expect you to answer immediately, not after 5 minutes of working it out -- well, it is tough.

And I'm just learning French! Which is very close to English. I can't imagine how much harder it would be if it were urdu or polish.

jollygoose Fri 03-May-13 22:07:29

it seems to me that most mnetters are under the impression that to be against more immigration makes you a racist. This is utter nonsense. My bf is indian and lovely neighbour bulgarian thats great, however the local school is over subscribed, health centre full to bursting and heaven help my kids if they ever need a council house there will be no chance.
So yes Im very happy to have voted UKIP this is a small island, we do not have enough work for the people here already and god help us all when Turkey and Roumanias floodgates open.

mirry2 Fri 03-May-13 22:08:09

Aftermay, don't personalise it. I wouldn't call them anything but fairly normal people. Maybe you don't know much about psychology, but most people find change difficult.
I don't know which group of people on this thread is the more bigotted and intolerant - the ones who are anti immigration for the sake of it or the ones who shout racism instead of having a reasonable discussion.

nailak Fri 03-May-13 22:08:21

newgirl they look like that to you, based on your assumptions, in reality you have no idea.

aftermay Fri 03-May-13 22:08:43

BJ you're right. You find people in their 80s who are racist despite having lived alongside immigrants for most of their lives (the postwar immigration, the 60s) etc. They still won't 'adjust' to immigration and you can't blame the speed of immigration on that.

Then you have idiots in their 20s who never remember a different, totally White (as that's what it often refers to) Britain, still having trouble with immigration.

FreyaSnow Fri 03-May-13 22:09:22

It isn't because young people themselves are favouring arts. It is because there aren't enough dentistry places for all the young people who are qualified enough to meet the entrance criteria and want to apply. The same is true across various other similar professions.

Jobs like dentistry have always been popular with groups who have reason to fear prejudice - white people from poor backgrounds with no connections and people from minority ethnic groups, because those jobs are based on qualifications and ability not on nepotism or being the 'right' kind of person socially. Jobs that give people a decent income and opportunities to move either within the UK or to migrate are always going to be popular. If we think migration is a great thing then we also have to be giving our young people the opportunity to do it, not just the privileged ones who are given more choices in life.

Grinkly Fri 03-May-13 22:09:28

The issue of immigration is one of integration surely.

Or lack of it by some immigrants.

nailak Fri 03-May-13 22:10:34

your kids having no chance of council housing is because of immigrants and not the fact the housing stock was sold off? confused

the local school being over subscribed is to do with immigration and not the lack of forward planning by councils who would have expected the increase in children? confused

aftermay Fri 03-May-13 22:11:09

Mirry2 - see my post above. Change has nothing to do with it. I didn't personalise it, mine was a general question. You made it personal to me. Re-read if you can be bothered (but you'll cringe at your own words). I know pretty much about psychology. I'm sat in an armchair as we type.

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 03-May-13 22:11:48

No . It's an issue of not being xenophobic and accepting people as they are, even if they are different to you. Not demanding they change to be like ou.

newgirl Fri 03-May-13 22:12:27

Nailak - that is my point! Read the thread! Because they don't mix we make assumptions which does not make for community harmony. Sorry you don't like hearing it but it's happening. Ignore it or do something positive to help the isolated women you seem to know.

PreciousPuddleduck Fri 03-May-13 22:12:45

Immigration is ruining the NHS & our schools....

Isiolo Fri 03-May-13 22:12:54

In my dds class of 30, only 3 have 2 white british parents...i dont know how many nationalities/languages we have in the school. Quite a lot of parents do not speak very good English. It doesnt stop them working/paying taxes/ volunteering at the school/ helping out at school and community events etc

Most of my friends are immigrants/are married to immigrants. All our local shops are owned by immigrants, most service providers are immigrants in my locality

People like Farage, speak about immigrants as if they are another species. He has no idea what he is talking about

Talkinpeace Fri 03-May-13 22:13:27

only on Mumsnet could Dentistry be considered a normal profession.
income wise its in the top 0.1%
yet none of the normal immigrant earning streams are mentioned.

UKIP get their support among the bin men and toilet cleaners.

whose skin colour and background is NOT THE POINT
the jobs go to incomers because those on benefits do not want to pick the shit off public toilet bowls
a job that has actually been done by immigrants for up to 500 years

newgirl Fri 03-May-13 22:13:43

And how can councils plan for immigration whennit happens so fast?

aftermay Fri 03-May-13 22:13:50

Puddle duck - you're being sarcastic, right? Have you been in a hospital recently?

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 03-May-13 22:13:56

Jeez, jollygoose, you are like that Daily Mail random headline generator program.

aftermay Fri 03-May-13 22:14:23

By recent I mean the past, ooh, 20 years or so?

bourneout Fri 03-May-13 22:15:04
nailak Fri 03-May-13 22:15:39

grinkly let me tell you something, about my life, I never questioned my Britishness, I was inherently British, how could I be anything else? I was born and raised here, i went to school here, had my daughter in the same hospital I was born in, how could I be anything else?

then I made the decision to observe hijab, and my feelings of Britishness never changed, they were something I would have never considered questioning, but then others told me you are not part of our society, on the news there was Jack Straw saying it, and others questioning it, and making me feel other when I had never felt other before, on mumsnet too people have told me your choice to wear headscarf is a choice to distance yourself etc etc, but it wasnt, integrated is not something i could ever consider myself as, as it implies i was seperate to begin with! however others tell me I need to do things to be more integrated, others make me feel apart from society and let me know they dont see me as part of their society.

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 03-May-13 22:15:41

How can people trot out such nonsense <headdesk facepalm>

FreyaSnow Fri 03-May-13 22:16:28

Nailak, I don't think you can separate the two issues. If the Government is in many ways incompetent, which many would say it is, then it is unlikely to suddenly become competent. The other option is to have less immigration so that the Government can resolve the issues it has so far failed to resolve at its usual glacial pace.

One obvious solution would be to move a lot of jobs (many public sector ones for a start) away from the South and to Scotland, Wales and depopulated areas of the North, and make sure the infrastructure is in place to cope with population growth in those areas, as they at least have more space available to build houses, schools, recreation facilities etc. This would take pressure off various cities and the the South East. Immigration could then be increased again.

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 03-May-13 22:16:53

X posted. Nailak's posts are very far from nonsensical and astonishingly astute

Pan Fri 03-May-13 22:17:11

The trouble with doing a pastiche of UKIPers is that they fail to see where you are taking the piss out of them. They take the extreme piss-taking, inadvertently, as the basis of policy.

bourneout Fri 03-May-13 22:17:26
mirry2 Fri 03-May-13 22:18:17

Aftermay I have no reason to cringe. I just don't like the way that you've used the race card in response to my perfectly reasonable point of view. It's just plain nasty.

Liara Fri 03-May-13 22:18:51

You people need to make up your minds.

The UK is not producing enough children to support the ageing population in the manner it has become accustomed to (i.e. taking more in pensions and the NHS than they have contributed in taxes in their lifetimes).

Therefore there needs to be an increasing tax base to support them.

So either

1. The young have to be taxed until the pips squeak and have all benefits removed or

2. people need to be imported in order to make up the shortfall in population (yes, that would be immigration.

You can't have it all ways at once, protect the pensions and the NHS and keep away all those immigrants who are willing to come here, get jobs and pay taxes.

PreciousPuddleduck Fri 03-May-13 22:19:50

Aye, labour wards are under so much pressure because one in three babes are born to foreigners. That is why British tax payers can no longer have 1:1 care.

FreyaSnow Fri 03-May-13 22:20:20

Dentistry is so well paid partially because there are not enough dentists. It should be a profession that the ordinary child of the benefits claimant, refuse collector and cleaner. The fact that many people feel that jobs in many health professions, a traditional route of social mobility, are becoming out of the reach of their children, is the issue of the gap between jobs and the educational opportunities open to children from ordinary backgrounds.

aftermay Fri 03-May-13 22:20:52

Mirry2 - it's not a fucking 'race card'. Calling a point of view racist is not nasty. You still haven't said what other term to use. You'll find racist fits just perfectly.

Pan Fri 03-May-13 22:22:37

Puddleduck - you are being serious, aren;t you?

aftermay Fri 03-May-13 22:22:54

Puddle duck - here's a solution: get more foreigners to do the job. Hang on, the NHS already relies heavily on immigration. Your 'argument' is a bit twisted and very silly.

Pan Fri 03-May-13 22:23:27

Because foreigners never pay tax themselves do they?hmm

nailak Fri 03-May-13 22:23:55

newgirl my point was they are not isolated they only seem isolated to you,

and why is it their duty to mix with you? maybe they have negative impressions of you, so why dont you do something and help the isolated people you seem to know? set up some sort of group or something? because trust me I am doing plenty in my community.

Also the majority of school places are caused by changing birth rates, for example if I go and look at my school governor notes I will be able to see the current amount of places in the borough, the projected number of places needed in the next five years and the plan the council has to meet this demand. My council, unlike many others in the country has invested and planned, despite the increase needed in my borough being about 5 times the average, which meant all children starting primary were allocated a place 98% got one of their top 3 choices and 89.21% got first choice, in comparison in the wealthy bourough of Kensington and Chelsea only 65% got their first choice.

In my area the seperate infant and juniors were both changed in to primaries, with playgrounds on the roof, staggered break and lunch times etc to manage.....

Pan Fri 03-May-13 22:24:47

I don't think Puddles point is an argument there - it's just an ignorant xenophobic rant.

mirry2 Fri 03-May-13 22:26:10

Aftermay - if people are taking time to change, it doesn't make them racist. Change doesn't happen overnight. And that point of mine isn't racist, it's fact.

aftermay Fri 03-May-13 22:27:04

Puddles can keep on writing. Anyone sharing those views will want to distance themselves when they see how stupid they sound in others. I think it's just someone shitstirring, surely.

nailak Fri 03-May-13 22:27:18

i thought that was sarcasm?

inabeautifulplace Fri 03-May-13 22:27:29

I like the sentiment previously mentioned; we should feel some pride that our society is attractive to many people around the world. So much so that they are prepared to struggle against the language barrier, cultural differences and some local hostility. Most who come here will offer something valuable to our society.

I see examples that highlight how immigrants are exploited in the workplace, leading to poorer conditions for British people. It seems to me that the issues here are related to unscrupulous employers, not immigrants themselves.

My personal view is a desire to be an integral part of Europe. Freedom of movement is essential to that; it's naive to see net immigration as solely positive though. We could chose to leave Europe politically but we cannot leave it geographically or economically. Better to have influence IMO.

PreciousPuddleduck Fri 03-May-13 22:27:43

I do not jest. Overseas doctors are net contributors to this country. Nobody including UKIP objects to skilled immigrants who pay tax. What drains the system are immigrants who have huge families & expect to be able to live in council houses & claim DLA because that cannot speak English. Believe me, this happens, some of you guys are just too idealistic.

nailak Fri 03-May-13 22:28:06

we are living in post modern times, characterised by constant change, we all better get used to change...

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 03-May-13 22:28:59 don't get DLA for not speaking English, but for being disabled

nailak Fri 03-May-13 22:29:52

yes i live in the borough with the largest non white population in the UK, yet I am idealistic.....

nailak Fri 03-May-13 22:30:18

fanjo my dd wants to know why i spat my tea out

aftermay Fri 03-May-13 22:30:48

Mirry2- see my post somewhere above. If someone is 80 and racist, just how many more years dies it take them to adjust? They've lived what, 60 plus years, with immigration. How much longer I'd needed for adjustment.

Someone who is 20 and racist. They've grown up in 'multicultural' Britain their entire life. When will they adjust if their first 20 years have not been enough?

It all boils down to whether you see your fellow human being as your equal or not. And if you don't because of race or origin or language then you're racist. What else?

PreciousPuddleduck Fri 03-May-13 22:32:01

No they get it for 'general debility' aka can't be arsed to work

aftermay Fri 03-May-13 22:33:04

Ha ha, Puddleduck, you're without equal. Can that be stupid quote of the week please?

FreyaSnow Fri 03-May-13 22:33:11

Nailak, I agree that people do have to get used to change, and a lot of the change that people find difficult is not even to do with ethnic minority groups. A lot of people feel stressed by their local area suddenly being full of people from a different area of the UK or from a different class background. Adjusting to change can be hard.

But the fact that people have to learn to adjust to change does not exempt the government from doing its job properly and resolving all the bigger strategic planning issues it is responsible for.

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 03-May-13 22:34:19

Yes, it's so easy to get DLA.

Educate yourself, I am embarrassed for you, precious

dogsandcats Fri 03-May-13 22:35:28

No one has answered my question about how many more immigrants to take.
10 million?

Pan Fri 03-May-13 22:35:33

Puddle - are you a UKIP supporter?

PreciousPuddleduck Fri 03-May-13 22:35:41

I wish I was no t do well acquainted with the defects in the system

PreciousPuddleduck Fri 03-May-13 22:35:55

So well

PreciousPuddleduck Fri 03-May-13 22:36:39

No, not a UKIP supporter but I can understand how people get frustrated

Isiolo Fri 03-May-13 22:37:07


it happens. But not often. Most immigrants come here to work

It always puzzles me when right-wingers accuse liberals/lefts of being idealistic. It is the tories who are not realistic. We live in a capaitalist society and therefore it is imperative to look after the bottom of your pyramid, if you want to keep creaming off the top.

There will always be benefit claimants; the feckless, the poor, under-educated, the disabled, the unlucky. Its unavoidable. And as human beings we have a duty of care. Its called social security for a reason, also

(a bit off topic, but its a bug bear of mine)

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 03-May-13 22:39:05

Fun though it's been reading the total toss that people have been churning out, I am off to bed.

Keep up the good fight all you non bigots grin

PreciousPuddleduck Fri 03-May-13 22:39:16

Genuine benefit claimants could get more if the system was more stringent.

Isiolo Fri 03-May-13 22:41:42

no, they couldnt puddleduck

nailak Fri 03-May-13 22:42:43


The worldwide movement toward economic, financial, trade, and communications integration.
Globalization implies the opening of local and nationalistic perspectives to a broader outlook of an interconnected and interdependent world with free transfer of capital, goods, and services across national frontiers.

Pan Fri 03-May-13 22:44:22

no Puddle, it doesn't work like that. 'Genuine' benefit claimants are getting screwed over. This may be news to you, but this is nothing at all to do with your "scrounging immigrants".

PreciousPuddleduck Fri 03-May-13 22:45:15

Yes, they could. It's all about rationing of resources. Do people on here really believe that everybody on DLA is incapable of all work????????

Isiolo Fri 03-May-13 22:47:08

Yes, they could. It's all about rationing of resources

Yeah, see, that is idealistic..

nailak Fri 03-May-13 22:47:59

i dont know, i dont know everyone on DLA confused

However I do believe that if we stopped fighting stupid wars we would be fifty billion better off grin

PreciousPuddleduck Fri 03-May-13 22:48:07

TBH, I don't really care where people come from as long as they pay their way just as I do. If you have worked & paid tax and are thenunfortunate to lose your job or suffer ill health them you should be looked after. How can you possibly argue with that?

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 03-May-13 22:48:09

You can work and receive DLA.

You are probably meaning incapacity benefit.

Educate yourself before making pronouncements

FreyaSnow Fri 03-May-13 22:48:35

I thought DLA was a benefit connected to disability, not working. Don't some people work and get DLA?

FreyaSnow Fri 03-May-13 22:49:01

Sorry, xpost.

ivykaty44 Fri 03-May-13 22:50:04

dreamingbohimian but you are talking about jobs and living a life working
my question was about why would people want to come here for benefits when there are other countries paying more- it wouldn't matter if france or spain had more jobs as people are convinced that immigrants only come here to sit around claiming benefits not work... maddness as there are plenty of countries in the eu giving more in benefits

I do not see any problem with people coming to the uk to work legit

PreciousPuddleduck Fri 03-May-13 22:50:34

Unless you would like to arrive in this country, contribute nothing & benefit from subsidised housing & free education & health care.
You would struggle to do that anywhere else in the world!
It is not sustainable. Even the idealists must acknowledge that??

Isiolo Fri 03-May-13 22:53:59

Where do you get your information??

You are frothy about scrounging immigrants and lazy dole scroungers..

Most immigrants work and pay tax
For the vast majority claiming benefits has not be a life style choice

<presenter's voice>

This concludes the 'immigrants are stealing our jobs' portion of our programme

We now continue with: immigrants won't work and are stealing our benefits

nailak Fri 03-May-13 22:54:41

you missing the point, we are denying that it happens in the first place.

ivykaty44 Fri 03-May-13 22:55:10

PPD why when another 7 countries are paying more in benefits would they come to the uk? its silly really if the rules are the same as we are all in the eu why would you go to the country that was paying less in benefits - greedy people don't take 8th best they want more

grovel Fri 03-May-13 22:55:11

I would not come here for free healthcare if I could go to France, Germany and some other EU countries. My local NHS is squalid and inefficient.

Pan Fri 03-May-13 22:56:10

is this a nice time to remember that Britians most glorious hour of athletics was achieved by a gingernut, a black man and a mixed-race woman? Or is that just idealism gorn mad, and I made it up?

ivykaty44 Fri 03-May-13 22:56:37

You would struggle to do that anywhere else in the world! err no wrong there are plenty of places in europe doing more and paying more....

Isiolo Fri 03-May-13 22:56:47

Coming up...

Immigrants are eating all our swans

ivykaty44 Fri 03-May-13 22:57:25

Pan - none of them were born in the Uk were they?

Isiolo Fri 03-May-13 22:57:49

Pan I have been wondering what our football teams would look like, if we sent back all the forriners

ivy sorry I misunderstood -- you're right, there are certainly other places with more benefits, and that are physically easier to enter.

The large majority of immigrants to the UK come to work or study. I think students actually make up 50% of the yearly immigrant totals.

Isiolo grin

Pan Fri 03-May-13 23:00:18

and later,

a Hampstead couple who voted UKIP deny illegally employing a Philipino housekeeper..

ivykaty44 Fri 03-May-13 23:00:36

Oh yes students - you mean the students that come here from the gulf and the like that spend large amounts of wonga? Enough wonga to lee london suberbs going through the summer and are a great big fat wedge to the economy that is so stinkingly poor at the moment and without them we would be well stuffed - those students?

ivykaty44 Fri 03-May-13 23:01:31

Philipino - is that near the Norfolk broads? Thats not foreign is it?

Jewcy Fri 03-May-13 23:01:37

I have heard that whole church congregations have voted UKIP because they oppose the redefining of marriage. Is this true?

Yep. Those students who, until last year, were paying 3 times the tuition fees of home students, thereby subsidising education for native Brits.


PatPig Fri 03-May-13 23:04:20

They weren't subsidising so much as not being subsidised. Big difference.

PreciousPuddleduck Fri 03-May-13 23:04:35

Nighty night folks. I too am an immigrant to this country but have contributed more than my fair share & will continue to do so smile

pixiegumboot Fri 03-May-13 23:06:46

probably been said before, but do you mean people like me from new Zealand or people from other places??? you do realize that EVERY first world country was built in immigration don't you???

I'm sorry but it doesn't seem like a huge difference to me (although thanks for correcting!) It's students bringing a lot of money into universities and local communities, that the UK government doesn't have to pay for.

PreciousPuddleduck Fri 03-May-13 23:11:39

Uh oh, the Guardian readers must have gone to bed [ wind up ]

newgirl Fri 03-May-13 23:12:37

That is a good point pixie v true.

Pan Fri 03-May-13 23:14:28

Olympic Brits - Rutherford was born English, Farah came to England as an 8 yo, and Ennis' dad is Jamaican, as we know? fwiw?
no ivy, the Philippines are just north of Rockall. So def. Brit. I was wrong.blush

ivykaty44 Fri 03-May-13 23:16:57

it is always ok for immigrants to come to the uk, but often those same immigrants don't want others to join in and come here as well...

Who gives a stuff if you contribute your fair share, it's an attitude of fairness that is required - not pulling up the rope ladder when you reach the top

ivykaty44 Fri 03-May-13 23:17:39

gingernut - wasn't he born in Ghent?

Isiolo Fri 03-May-13 23:17:51
PreciousPuddleduck Fri 03-May-13 23:19:23

Pixie you use the word 'built' which is past tense. You have needed a visa to live in the US for many yrs and nil entitlements similar to UK on entry.

Pan Fri 03-May-13 23:20:05

is that true about immigrants to a country not wanting their fellows to follow them. Seriously? Where is that evidence? Are you kidding? <lost bearings totally in last 2 hours>

PreciousPuddleduck Fri 03-May-13 23:20:57

I agree Ivy, nobody cares if one contributes ones fair share.

Pan Fri 03-May-13 23:22:00

Ghent? What? A......Belgian immigrant!! Really?

ivykaty44 Fri 03-May-13 23:24:05
newgirl Fri 03-May-13 23:24:57

Actually nailak the teachers are doing just that so also agree they seem isolated. Lovely but really they should be teaching children.

ivykaty44 Fri 03-May-13 23:26:56

sorry pan the whole thing isn't available but Handsworth is know for its immigrants and it is when the next immigrants arrive that they find the immigrants not happy at the arrival of more immigrants.

Pan Fri 03-May-13 23:29:03

ha! thanks ivy Up the Handsworth Revolution!

ivykaty44 Fri 03-May-13 23:30:47

sorry wrong ginernut I think - I mean side burns, its late

Pan Fri 03-May-13 23:32:57

Really ivy? I've never known that thing. Lived in 3 big cities with mixed ethnicities and that notion has never come up. I'd think usually most immigrants would otherwise wish more of their fellow nationals to be there too.

Pan Fri 03-May-13 23:34:15

Ah Wiggo. Yes. Another evil forriner.

ivykaty44 Fri 03-May-13 23:34:32

Ah there own nationals - but not other immigrants from other places

PreciousPuddleduck Fri 03-May-13 23:39:18


OhMerGerd Fri 03-May-13 23:44:21

I'm so sad for my country. We used to be great. The 'working classes' hand pride and substance and no amount of divide and rule politicking prevented them from developing the laws and institutions this generation are taking for granted and overseeing the dismantling of.
We don't have mothers with ten live births and two children lic

OhMerGerd Fri 03-May-13 23:47:31

Oops I hate the iPhone.

That should read 2 children living because of welfare and employment and equality legislation but we're throwing it all away because someone is feeding us a line about people with a differ t skin tone.
There are far more worrying things happening that are impacting negatively on all our lives than immigration. If only we as a people were getting more exercised about these, we'd all be better off.

PreciousPuddleduck Fri 03-May-13 23:49:52

OMG nobody has mentioned skin tone

Pan Fri 03-May-13 23:56:20

Um..well posters have 'mentioned' it, just understated.

nailak Sat 04-May-13 00:09:29

newgirl thats great, people are identifying a perceived problem and doing something about it rather then complaining! if you think the teachers time would be better spent elsewhere, you are free to volunteer your time.

Mimishimi Sat 04-May-13 02:16:28

The biggest source of illegal immigrant here in Australia are citizens of the UK who just assume it's ok to overstay their visas here because we are a former colony. The people who complain about non-white immigration here usually could/would not do half the jobs many of these immigrants do (doctors, scientists, engineers etc).

sashh Sat 04-May-13 06:13:52

immigrants integrate into indigenous communities rather than creating their own segregated sections of society

The street my grandparents lived on since before WWII was all white until the early 1960s when the first Pakistani family arrived.

By the time she died, she and one other household were the only white people on the street.

It wasn't for the lack of trying that these people did not integrate. They were all nice ordinary people. They used to bring my grandparents food for Eid.

After my grandfather died and my grandmother became ill she could phone the corner shop and ask for a loaf of bread that one of the local teenagers wold bring round.

OrbisNonSufficit Sat 04-May-13 07:11:16

For those who seem to think there is an overwhelming tide of family migration, you're wrong - it was actually only 13.5% of visas granted in 2010. Other visa categories such as student and work are much higher.

dogsandcats Sat 04-May-13 07:45:36

That is a long, but probably interesting document. I will readit in more detail later. But it is 2010, so the figures are going to be a bit out of date.
The first thing to see there is that more than have of people came from outside the EU. I am surprised by that.

As regards family migration, is it not the case that sometimes people come over here, and then bring their family members later?

FasterStronger Sat 04-May-13 08:31:06

Immigration is not one thing as different people bring different skills and needs with them. We need to target potential migrants who have skills are short of (e.g. Science, engineer, technology, entrepreneurship) and offer them full residency. Low skilled migrants should be offered temporary visas so that they cam be renewed or not as the economy grows and contracts.

Pressure needs to be put on unemployed UK citizens to Take low paid work so they compete with EU migrants for these jobs.

immigration can be a good or bad thing depending on how it is managed.

dogsandcats Sat 04-May-13 08:45:49

I think I agree with all of that post FasterStronger.

newgirl Sat 04-May-13 09:58:12

But the mums don't want to /aren't allowed to talk to White mums as other posters have noted - they've been invited to things but don't come - wise up - and open your eyes - you don't like people having other opinions to yourself nailak.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sat 04-May-13 10:22:25

So what..they can talk to who they like, I'm sure the other mums gravitate towards people they have most in common with.

Your posts are sounding increasingly racist.

ShellyBoobs Sat 04-May-13 10:25:57

I think the sooner some people wake up to the fact that they are simply lucky to have been born in the UK, the better.

We (UK born) aren't here because we're better and more deserving than other nationalities. We're here purely by luck.

MoreBeta Sat 04-May-13 10:50:06

The UK has been doing immigration for a good 2000 years. Its one of the reasons that the UK has such a tolerant society that many other countries do not have.

I genuinely think most people in the UK haven't got a problem with immigrants as people but they just want the pace of immigration to be slowed to a manageable level and immigrants to be vetted before they come here to ensure they can make a contribution and pay their way with resources put in place to deal with langiuage issues in school, social housing availability, extra maternity cover in hospitals, policing resources, etc.

The immigration debate exploded because the huge influx under Labour was out of control and there was no time to integrate immigrants into society and the economy. The Labour Govt provided no extra resources to deal with the problems that they willfully denied were occcuring. The official figures under recorded the amount of immigrants for years and politicians refused to acknowledge it and instead implied anyone who spoke up was a racist.

The intense concentration of new immigrants in certain areas such as Lincolnshire which has a small economy, sparse population and fairly weak public services typical of a largely rural area is the main reason UKIP won big there - not because people in Lincolnshire are closet racists.

The influx of immigrants into London was never a problem because of its huge and fast growing economy economy, dense population and highly developed public services. The political elite of all major parties who live and work in London just dont see it is a big problem because they never experience it in their daily lives.

StoicButStressed Sat 04-May-13 11:08:38

Dear Wallison (& anyone else who thinks racist terms are acceptable & I guess to those who - like me - find them pretty bloody vileangry and would prefer not to see them here)

In response to your reply to my post politely asking that you did not call my Mother a pretty racist term (also meant in the over-riding/macro sense, as in, referring to ANYONE as 'brown-faced' IS pretty bloody racist; but appreciate the obviousness of that may have escaped you), and your 'strawman' (complete with what seems to be your standard MO on this thread of an additional and wholly uncalled for/innane & additional personal 'dig' first - to a host of other posters as well as myself - mine being re me & my user namehmm ) - response of:

Wallison Fri 03-May-13 11:25:53
'Jesus, Stoic, you could hardly have picked a less appropriate username if you tried, could you? First, I haven't mentioned your mother. Second...'

If you genuinely(????) need it spelling out, then rather than the biscuit I'd prefer to proffer, then I WILL take the time & effort TO SPELL IT OUT as it is just SO bang out of order:

StoicButStressed Fri 03-May-13 09:26:20
'I think immigration has been: way too high; way too unregulated; and has caused huge issues in some communities where local services (e.g. Primary Schools) have been pushed to breaking point as well as the more macro economic issues.'

'I write as a second generation immigrant - my Father from Ireland and my Mumma from Africa.'

Wallison Fri 03-May-13 10:11:32 [In response to another poster pointing out how bombastic; dissing/trying to 'control' or shut down other's views; patronising - iirc was a delightful snarky/'put-down' one along lines of "That's nice.... aaaaanyway... " - etc. you were being]

'I'm not controlling anyone. I'm just talking as I find, as you are. If I think you're a racist, I'll say so.....' ..... 'you just look like you are trying to find excuses for blaming brown-faced people for the country's ills.'

StoicButStressed Fri 03-May-13 11:05:02

'Please don't call my mother 'brown-faced'. That really IS fucking racist.'

The utter irony of 'telling' other individuals (whose posts were NOT racist, rather their simply made observations regarding strains on resources etc) that THEY are racist whilst using such a fucking awful racist term beggars belief TBH.

Am in little doubt that if you even bother to acknowledge the above (although given can see how 'dog with a bone' you were with a gazillion posts last nights, it would clearly be easy - and courteous - for you acknowledge it?), it will be laced with all the standard 'reasons' people trot out vis why it's 'okay' to refer to people as 'brown-faced' or any other racist & derogatory termangry

'I was obviously being ironic'
'It was a joke'
'No, it's nothing I would write - was referring to OTHER people..
Etc etc etc.

But for clear avoidance of doubt and before you go there to those standard retorts when pulled up for BEING racist/using overtly racist language, YOU wrote that. NO-ONE else did or 'made you' write that. And yeah, it was - and remains - really fucking offensive.

NB My Mumma was what people like you would call 1 of coffee/2 of white, so thank FUCK she generally wasn't subjected to much racial abuse when she arrived here in the '60s on account of being 'lucky' enough to get away with looking heavily 'tanned-faced' rather than 'brown-faced'.

Isiolo Sat 04-May-13 11:21:49

fasterstronger I can see where your ideas are coming from, but;

why do you think unskilled worker do not need the same security for themselves and their families in terms of permanent employment contracts, and the benefits/rights of not being temporary/agencies workers?

We have no shortage of engineers in the UK. There has been a 40% industry wide reduction in employment in the construction sector. many of the large well known main contractors have gone out of business.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sat 04-May-13 11:23:11

I can see why the term upset you.
To be fair I think Wallinson intended it to be representation of the way the racists think and speak and not her own favoured term.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sat 04-May-13 11:24:29

But....I do agree it is best not to use racist terms at all.

Isiolo Sat 04-May-13 11:27:42

yeah newgirl the same could be said of our school. On any given morning after drop off you can find groups of Somalian parents and groups of Pakistani parents, all stood about chatting.

..because they are friends!!! and why not?! They share language, culture, religion. It is not an indication that they dont integrate...

Have you approached any of these ladies? Asked them how their kids are getting on? Do you know their childrens names? Have you asked any of them if they would like to come round for a cup of tea? or take the kids to the park with you after school? Have you invited the children round with reassurances that food will be vegetarian?

I imagine the reason that you havent managed to integrate with them, is because you are a xenophobe. You may think you hide it well but none of you do. It stinks

Isiolo Sat 04-May-13 11:29:44

incidentally, how many foreigners are you comfortable with in a group? Can they stand in 2s or 3s? If they had a white british person in the group, could they then double the number of 'others'?

aftermay Sat 04-May-13 11:35:10

The schoolgate thing as a barometer is laughable really. There are dozens of threads on here about people trying to make friends and being ignored or not made to feel welcome etc. Race or nationality never gets mentioned. But I wouldn't judge society or a whole group by what I see happening at morning drop off. (or else we'd get the wrong impression about the British sense of fashion etc.)

nailak Sat 04-May-13 11:39:22

seriously newgirl if there was a white mum in the playground who didnt want to talk to you would you say she is not integrated/not allowed? no you wouldnt. you are judging people differently based on race and ethnicity which is racism.

If you have some knowledge of the situation that you are not sharing then I am prepared to say I am wrong, but from what you say it just seems like they are not bothered to make friends at school gate like a lot of people

We need to target potential migrants who have skills are short of (e.g. Science, engineer, technology, entrepreneurship) and offer them full residency. Low skilled migrants should be offered temporary visas so that they cam be renewed or not as the economy grows and contracts.

I genuinely think most people in the UK haven't got a problem with immigrants as people but they just want the pace of immigration to be slowed to a manageable level and immigrants to be vetted before they come here to ensure they can make a contribution and pay their way.

What I don't understand is why people think these things aren't already happening.

All non-EU immigrants, which is half of immigration, are vetted to make sure they won't be a drain. They are either students or skilled workers coming in on the points system, or they are family members where the sponsor demonstrates he has enough money to support them.

EU immigrants are not vetted per se, but to receive benefits or sponsor non-EU they have to show they have been working, studying or looking for work for at least 3 months. There is not a lot you can do here short of dropping out of the EU.

So what exactly do people want to happen to drop the numbers further?

Students and skilled workers benefit the economy. Dropping out of the EU would be really drastic. And cutting back family migrants risks violating people's right to a family life -- already, you have people unable to bring their spouse and children to the UK, effectively forcing them to live in exile from their own country if they want to stay with their family.

So: if you want to cut immigration, how exactly do you want to do it? It's not simple.

nailak Sat 04-May-13 11:43:33

If anyone is actually interested in breaking down barriers rather then just slagging of other people for wasting teachers time and stuff, I found what worked was a picnic in the park, inviting people saying we are all meeting up and bring a dish all welcome, tell your friends, and telling people from different groups to come, telling your kids to tell the other kids.

I hate this attitude that things should be done, but someone else needs to do it. If there are issues in your community be part of the solution!

Jinsei Sat 04-May-13 12:03:00

I find it so hard to recognise all these stories of school gate segregation. confused At our school, I have never seen anything of the sort. Yes, you might sometimes see a group of Muslim mums talking to each other, or a group of White British mums doing the same, but you're equally likely to see a mixed group of mums (and dads) too, chatting, laughing, making arrangements for the kids. Our kids all play with each other, go to each other's houses, pester us to go to the park after school, invite each other to birthday parties etc. It's a very diverse school, but race/culture/religion just don't seem to create the barriers here that apparently exist elsewhere. I can't help but wonder why.


Jinsei Sat 04-May-13 12:06:20

Sorry, that looks like I think being Muslim and being White British are mutually exclusive. I realise that they're not, but most of the Muslim families at our school are south Asian or from the Middle East. Apologies if I offended anyone!

StoicButStressed Sat 04-May-13 12:08:46

Fanjo Thank you for your post and I am in no doubt at all about your genuine good intentions. But the point is - there IS no 'to be fair...' when someone/ANYONE uses terms like that.... As they ARE racist terms, full stop.

I agree WHOLLY with your observation that "it is best not to use racist terms at all".

I also agree with anyone and everyone who is disappointed that thread about immigration - no matter WHAT anyone's view's on that were, as clearly there will be many different POV's - has got hijacked by the 'race' card, with the actual issues/impacts/costs & benefits/whatever of number of immigrants and what that means now almost long forgotten. Which is tragic because every time THOSE issues do fail to be debated sensibly; get forgotten and lost via bringing race into it (whether on here, in Westminster, on the streets of any town); vile Farrage et all will be the SOLE beneficiaries of that.sad.

nailak Sat 04-May-13 12:13:52

jinsei if you see a mum that looks like she is isolated and doesn't speak English, what would you do?

Jinsei Sat 04-May-13 12:24:51

Smile at her. grin Try talking to her. Whatever. But it's unlikely she would be ignored by anyone. We're a very friendly school! smile

We do have a couple of mums who don't speak much English, but we all manage to rub along. Sometimes it's easier to communicate through the kids. For example, one family doesn't have a car, so I have often arranged to take the children (and sometimes parents) to parties or functions by getting the children to interpret. It has resulted in some pretty confusing conversations in the car, but it's all fun!

williaminajetfighter Sat 04-May-13 13:09:49

I do think the UK is under strain and services are not growing/changing fast enough to support the growing population. The SE is jammed full.

I don't think we should belong to the EU and that services for the UK should be for people within the UK. A social welfare state only works when there is relatively closed borders. Stopping immigration from the EU would also stop the undercutting that happens in the construction and service sectors.

I still believe there should still be controlled immigration based on a country's need. I can here in 1998 and for 12 years paid taxes at 40% rate with no access to any public funds. In that time I paid for private dentist and GP. Only became British citizen in last few years. Fairly sure if I wanted access to public funds those would be limited anyway. Hardly a drain on the system! smile

dogsandcats Sat 04-May-13 13:12:45

When UK citizens emigrate to Australia, or more other places for that matter, there always seems to be a thriving ex-pat community.
That could be seen to be that the Brits are not integrating with the indegenious population.
Not sure exactly what my point is, but I thought that was worth mentioning.

williaminajetfighter Sat 04-May-13 13:16:13

I also wanted to add that a lot of people posting on here, like on Mumsnet in general, are very ideology-driven but not always thinking about the economic or practical ramifications of their beliefs.

People who write things like 'our doors should be open to everyone' and 'we are lucky to live here and want others to experience the same' or my favourite 'I am a child of the world... Blah blah blah' have not always thought through the practical realities of what these ideas put into place mean. Are you happy to see your salaries going down to even put with the global economy?

I see this all the time on MN: 'the govt needs to spend more on providing services and building schools..' With what exactly?? With what money? There are a lot if fantasists out there who just don't want to discuss economics or I'd they do their response is always: tax the corporate bastards!! Sophisticated thinking. wink

nailak Sat 04-May-13 13:36:36

i already answered that, with the money they are using on fighting illegal wars in other countries

by not allowing MNCs like starbucks to get away with paying no tax.

by better use of the funds they have got.

I would be happy to see the end of capitalism.

dogsandcats Sat 04-May-13 14:41:39

Good points William
Still no one is coming forward and saying that they would like 10 or 30 million extra immigrants here so I can only presume that even they have a finite number they would like here.

I find it's the anti-immigration folks who aren't really thinking through the practical implications of their beliefs.

As I noted above: how do you want to reduce immigration?

Given that already you have to be a student, skilled worker or family member if you're non-EU, and you can't limit EU migration?

What's the answer?

And yes, of course everyone has a finite number in mind. No one is advocating an open door policy.

ivykaty44 Sat 04-May-13 15:13:33

williaminajet but immigration may not have a negative impact on the economy- do you have evidence to show it doesn't have a positive impact?

ivykaty44 Sat 04-May-13 15:16:39

I doubt everyone wants to come to the Uk - even some british don't want to stay

OTheHugeManatee Sat 04-May-13 15:54:49

dreaming: You can limit EU immigration. By leaving the EU.

I think that's why lots of people have started supporting UKIP.

See, I can understand that. If you want less immigration and are happy to leave the EU, then I think that's a logical argument. What I don't understand is people thinking you can drastically reduce immigration but not leave the EU.

But there are enormous costs to leaving the EU -- I personally think it would be a very bad idea.

dogsandcats Sat 04-May-13 16:09:23

Hang on then.
"And yes, of course everyone has a finite number in mind. No one is advocating an open door policy".
Then why are some people called racist on this issue, if they want a finite number?
[Though, since this is my first real foray into this issue, that question may be well and truly answered by now].

I don't think people are called racist simply for wanting a finite number. It's all about how you make your argument.

I mean, every country in the world has immigration controls -- most people accept that it's appropriate to limit numbers. But how you limit those numbers is where sometimes racist arguments can appear.

For example, people telling me that they're okay with immigrants like me (American) coming in -- I think that's kind of racist, because they're assuming from my nationality that I work and contribute, and other nationalities don't.

It's also problematic because throughout history, extremist racist parties have always targeted immigrants/outsiders, and so you have to be careful not to repeat their arguments.

OTheHugeManatee Sat 04-May-13 16:34:04

dreaming - I used to be with you on that. But I was talking about Europe a few years ago with a friend who works for the Foreign Office, and he told me then that it was an open secret in the FO that the costs and benefits of EU membership were so finely balanced that no-one wanted to do an official study in case it inflamed Euroscepticism. This was before the bailouts. Since then the cracks in the EU have become quite worryingly large and the pull for greater integration correspondingly more insistent. ;

I am well-travelled, fluent in 3 European languages and very in favour of international trade and co-operation. But over recent years I have become increasingly concerned by the steady advance of unelected Eurocracy, which started with EU law and post-credit crunch is pushing ever further into fiscal union. The EU project is, to my eye, looking increasingly undemocratic. I used to be very pro-Europe, but more recently I really am not so sure: for me it jumped the shark when democratically elected governments in Greece and Italy were simply removed by European technocrats.

I think a lot of what is currently being written off as right-wing bigotry (eg objections to accession state migrants, protest at misapplication of human rights law) is rooted in ordinary voters' concerns about the transfers of power to a basically unelected and unaccountable supranational bureaucracy.

I'm no big fan of the EU -- for me, it is the insane levels of corruption and incompetence that drive me nuts.

But I think the answer is to stay in and try to reform it, not to leave.

The UK is intimately linked with Europe on so many fronts, whether they like it or not. Why would you want to give up your voice and decision-making power within the bureaucracy that makes so many decisions affecting you? Even if the UK withdraws, EU policy will still have a massive impact on its trade, economic, social, etc relationships, only the UK will have no power to affect them.

OTheHugeManatee Sat 04-May-13 17:01:21

You're right dreaming - that's the counter-argument and it's a strong one. There was a great article in The Economist last year that weighed up the pros and cons and the likely outcomes of leaving, only to draw a conclusion (IIRC) quite close to yours.

I guess for me there's a difference between being influence by EU policy as we adjust to dealing with it, and having an obligation to ratify legislation introduced by an organisation with no democratic mandate. The latter really bothers me, and it seems to be happening more and more.

I'm also aware that EU membership is a bit off-topic and don't want to hijack. I bring up the EU thing only because I think the EU democratic deficit (as well as the corruption and incompetence you rightly mention) are huge but little-acknowledged contributors to anti-immigration sentiment as well as to the rise of UKIP. I think it's mistaken to write these things off as purely being about small-mindedness and bigotry.

dogsandcats Sat 04-May-13 17:21:32

So we seem to be somewhat currently beholden to the EU really.

newgirl Sat 04-May-13 17:21:45

I was reception PTA rep and sent same emails and invites to all parents so yes I have tried. If you read the earlier posts you would see that. As I've also said there are parents from all over the world but some won't/can't mix. Yes I've said hello and invited to parties. Not even a "no thank you" of course would serve vegetarian food. But it's obviously easier for some posters to wade in without knowing this - prejudice

Yes, I don't want to hijack either, but I find it troubling that so many people are now becoming anti-EU mostly because of immigration, and not really recognising all the benefits that come from EU membership.

I feel like the EU is becoming a scapegoat for a lot of things that the UK government is getting wrong. It's not the EU's fault for example that not enough schools have been built and NHS funding is being cut.

Talkinpeace Sat 04-May-13 18:59:04

Immigrants pay more tax per head than British born
remember that when you try to restrict our arrival

"not enough schools built"
in the 1980's there was massive depopulation in the city centres (Ghost Town by the Specials summed it up)
Southampton closed and sold for flats its city centre Secondary school.
Now city centres are vibrant again (London's population is up over a million on the early 80's low) and those sold off schools are needed again.

Funding is NOT being cut. BUT too many managers recruit more like themselves and governments have this stupid idea that "competition" is good in healthcare.
I cut my leg. I go to the nearest A&E, I do not use a comparative table and drive an extra 100 miles.

MoreBeta Sat 04-May-13 20:36:55

The truth is that for an immigrant family that has two school age children and one SAHP the WOHP parent has to earn at least £50k per annum to pay enough tax and NI to cover the full cost of the benefits and public services the family receive,

That is why the UK cannot afford to allow uncontrolled immigration of unskilled workers from the EU or indeed rest of the world. Uncontrolled mass immigration undermines employment in low skill low pay sectors and just adds to the total cost of providing benefits and public services.

We just cant afford to take every person who want to live in the UK without demanding they contribute at least as much in financial terms as the services they use.

i spoke to a Polish person about this and she said that the UK is seen as unbelievably soft and generous in the way it hands out things like public services and benefits. Indeed she gave the simple example of paying your water bill. In Poland you just get cut off if you dont pay. Here you are allowed a minimal service even if you dont pay.

Talkinpeace Sat 04-May-13 20:43:39

however for a single health man living in a shared private bedsit, the tax he pays massively outweighs the impact on the services used until after a few years he brings his girlfriend over and she also works until they have kids.

For a UK national, by the time that are 18 they owe the state a FORTUNE in school and NHS costs.
Should you stop British people being able to call on the State to a greater value than their tax take?

Or just immigrants have to go through the cost / benefit analysis?

and immigrants like myself who went to private school so were supported by UK taxpayers and did not draw on the state funded school system : should we get some cash back?

williaminajetfighter Sat 04-May-13 22:07:52

Dreaming. I'm not just anti EU because of immigration but as others have noted because of the EU bureaucracy that's been created and because I think it is taking governance decisions away from the UK which seems a crazy way to be dictated...

MoreBeta Sat 04-May-13 22:13:37

Talkinpeace - "Should you stop British people being able to call on the State to a greater value than their tax take?"

No I dont think that - but on the other hand that is the underlying issue on many MN threads on benefits. It is at the heart of much of the current debate on capping/cutting benefits in the politics.

Surely better to limit benefits to immigrants first before cutting those to people who were born and live in the UK?

MoreBeta Sat 04-May-13 22:15:49

I also went to private school as do my children - but I dont expect cash back either.

Talkinpeace Sat 04-May-13 22:51:08

What does capping/cutting benefits have to do with immigration?
Most immigrants are not entitled to the bulk of benefits.
and THE MOST expensive part of the social security budget is the State pension : which is not available to most immigrants.

THe biggest unfunded cost the government is facing relates to public sector pensions (particularly the unfunded schemes like teachers, NHS, MOD) : again, nothing to do with immigrants.

If all the immigrants left do you seriously think that the current indigenous unemployed would happily take on the work they do?

nailak Sat 04-May-13 22:54:05

newgirl have you thought maybe they don't celebrate birthdays and a party is not the most appropriate thing to invite them too! lol

you say they can't speak ENglish so you think English emails are the best way to approach them lol?

MoreBeta Sat 04-May-13 22:57:04

Politically, the issue of benefits, immigration and unemployment are initimately linked in the minds of people who live in economically deprived areas.

It may be illogical but that is realpolitik of our current situation. It is what many people think and especially among older voters.

Talkinpeace Sat 04-May-13 23:01:12

That is true.
People voted UKIP on Thursday because of their stance on immigration and the economy.
I have lots of dealings with County Councils.
Border policy and taxes are not normally under their remit!

It will be like the BNP councillors from a couple of years back : once the elected dorks find out how little they can actually do and how slowly it all moves they will drop out. And at the low key by elections will be replaced by many of the former incumbents.

Grinkly Sat 04-May-13 23:31:35

People voted UKIP on Thursday because of their stance on immigration and the economy

I think it is more a protest vote against old etonians and a labour party with no policies.

Hullygully Sun 05-May-13 11:19:30

people voted ukip because it's easier to blame "furriners" especially dark ones, than grapple with the disaster of monetarism and the "free" market.

infamouspoo Sun 05-May-13 11:25:15

anyone who uses private schools does benefit from the state. Who paid for the teacher training? the roads they use to get to the schools? the schools the teachers kids go to? the hospitals that keep the teachers well? ffs.Its all inter linked.

Dawndonna Sun 05-May-13 11:43:53

In Poland you just get cut off if you dont pay. Here you are allowed a minimal service even if you dont pay.
Then thank goodness we live in a civilised society.
As for your point about benefits, many immigrants are not entitled to them.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sun 05-May-13 11:50:56 there is a still a modicum of compassion left for those who cant afford water.

How dreadful

MrsDeVere Sun 05-May-13 11:59:46

It wasn't that long ago that families were cut off dead.

It was deemed to be illegal to do so. Very possibly (but please correct me if I am wrong) due to the HRA or laws made because of the HRA.

I am puzzled about the anti EU stance by UKIP and its voters.

It does seem to boil down to immigration and the HRA.

Why do people object to legislation that protects their own families? Do they really want their right to a family life removed?

Its like the people that imagine that there are special housing laws for brown people and there is some sort of point system for disability benefits, you get extra if you are forrin.

I heard some twat on the radio yesterday. He lives in Boston. When asked why he hated immigrants so much he started blapping on about how he was in the army and went to Germany and Cyprus (so no active service then) and how if a Pole got a job they got a free car.

Its lies, it doesn't make sense. Yet he repeats it and other repeat it and stupid people believe it and non stupid people do not discourage it.

This is the sort of person who is votes UKIP. He thinks poles get free cars and that the world owes him a living because he was in the Army for five years.

I am certainly not against ex service personnel being giving adequate support. I wish they had done something for us when they spat out my OH after being in GW1.

What I can't bear is the experiences of some service men and women being coopted by racist twats to justify every bit of crap that comes out of their gob.

Isiolo Sun 05-May-13 12:05:18

And, let's not forget, we fought against the nazis

nailak Sun 05-May-13 12:21:04

alongside brown people.

People all over the common wealth contributed to war effort. My grandfather risked his life working in a shell factory in South Africa.

inabeautifulplace Sun 05-May-13 15:36:59

"i spoke to a Polish person about this and she said that the UK is seen as unbelievably soft and generous in the way it hands out things like public services and benefits. Indeed she gave the simple example of paying your water bill. "

Water is amongst many things that was privatised in the last few decades. So clearly it's a good thing that after privatisation we created legislation to ensure that basic needs were always met.

BTW, as I understand it Poland will be forced to announce at some point that it can no longer afford to pay state pensions at the current level. There is already no JSA. These could explain why your friend believes the UK to be generous - Poland is poor.

pixiegumboot Sun 05-May-13 16:21:46

Precious, my point being that no country has ever exclusively been made up of indigenous people whatever that means. so why start now. aside from perhaps japan, nth Korea who were closed societies for a long time

MoreBeta Sun 05-May-13 17:01:51

inabeautifulplace - if Poland no longer pays pensions and JSA that will just increase the incentive to move to the UK.

As I said before and someone else said up thread a welfare state like we have in the UK is not compatible with open borders. Health tourists visit the UK to get healthcare treatment for free that they cannot afford to pay for at home. Benefits of all kinds attract low skill low pay immigrants who have desperately poor lives in their own country.

The grinding poverty of Romania/Bulgaria and other E. European countries means it is inevitable that many will move to the UK.

I used to visit Romania often before the Berlin Wall came down and I understand it hasn't improved much since then. I really dont blame people from E. Europe moving to the UK but we really have to shut the borders otherwise our welfare state will collapse. The only alternative is to shut down our welfare state.

I woudl rather we shut our borders than our welfare state.

LadyClariceCannockMonty Sun 05-May-13 17:14:23

'Oh. And I dont need a study or research quoted at me thank you.
A cursory glance at Britian is sometimes all that is needed.'

Yes, cursory glances and anecdotal non-evidence is so much more reliable than studies and research, isn't it?

dreamingbohemian, thanks for the link and your summing-up. That's about the most persuasive and sensible post on this thread.

Talkinpeace Sun 05-May-13 18:27:49

you do not seem to understand that the tax contribution of immigrants is the ONLY THING that is PROPPING UP the welfare state.

We immigrants, per head, pay more tax than you local born.
If we all burgered off out, your tax rate would rise by several percent.

No skin off my nose, I'm an accountant, I can work anywhere.
You're kids are stuffed though.

mirry2 Sun 05-May-13 18:54:29

Talkingpeace I don't know if that is so but I think the tone of your post is offensive (and racist-it works both ways, you know)

Talkinpeace Sun 05-May-13 19:08:34

what race am I?
my family has graves all over Europe in the 1600's and then some of us moved overseas and later some of us moved back

why is it racist to point out the fact that more indigenous people claim benefits than immigrants?
why is it racist to point out that the tax bill of shits like Bob Diamond equate to those of around 1000 teachers ?

inabeautifulplace Sun 05-May-13 19:08:44

Morebeta, from my experience it's not the benefits that entice people to come here but the availability of work. I can only speak about the people I know but they are generally well educated. To my mind people who are prepared to give up everything they know and love in order to work in the UK have something valuable to offer our country.

As pointed out previously, the benefits system in the UK is not the most attractive in the EU, neither is its healthcare the finest.

mirry2 Sun 05-May-13 19:24:10

Talkingpeace please carefully re read your post, and mine. Of course it isn't offensive to point these things out.

And I don't understand what point you are making in saying your family have graves all over Europe? You and millions others.

Talkinpeace Sun 05-May-13 19:29:45

so in what way is what I say racist?

mirry2 Sun 05-May-13 19:42:29

Talkingpeace -^why is it racist to point out the fact that more indigenous people claim benefits than immigrants?
why is it racist to point out that the tax bill of shits like Bob Diamond equate to those of around 1000 teachers ? ^

I don't know what you're on about confused

Talkinpeace Sun 05-May-13 19:52:23

You and I appear to be at cross purposes.

Immigration and racism are not inextricably linked (despite what UKIP and the BNP would have one believe)
Immigrants have been an essential vibrant part of the UK economy for hundreds of years - the Vikings, Normans and Hugenots being notable documented groups.

Before I arrived, my family were last in the UK 400 years ago, so I am an immigrant, but bits of my historic bloodline trace back to Tunbridge Wells, so I'm not.

The point is that the definition of "enough" immigrants is subjective, liable to personal bias and dependent on macroeconomic variations.

Lazyjaney Sun 05-May-13 21:08:01

"As pointed out previously, the benefits system in the UK is not the most attractive in the EU, neither is its healthcare the finest"

The issue, now belatedly admitted by the current Govermnent, is that it is one of the most accessible of the decent ones in Western Europe.

Wallison Sun 05-May-13 21:14:40

I also don't see what is racist in pointing that immigration brings a net economic benefit to the UK which of course is no surprise given that many foreign-born people aren't entitled to anything off the state. Or is pointing out such facts not part of an "honest debate" that the racists say they are being denied?

Going back a bit, StoicStressed, as has already been noted, I used the term I did as being indicative of how racists think. I take your point that it's best not to use such terms at all though, in case someone doesn't realise that. However, I should imagine that such people as would not realise that and then go on to take offence have rather more pressing problems to attend to - such as the perennial question of how to find their arse with both hands.

inabeautifulplace Sun 05-May-13 22:45:15

"The issue, now belatedly admitted by the current Govermnent, is that it is one of the most accessible of the decent ones in Western Europe."

I thought healthcare was guaranteed if you had an EHIC card?

Lazyjaney Mon 06-May-13 09:07:08

I also don't see what is racist in pointing that immigration brings a net economic benefit to the UK which of course is no surprise given that many foreign-born people aren't entitled to anything off the state. Or is pointing out such facts not part of an "honest debate" that the racists say they are being denied?

There's nothing racist with saying that, nobody has said it is - but nor is it racist to dispute it, or seek to reduce the downsides.

But Wallison your attitude throughout this thread - "I'm right (in your case actually far left of the Labour position in fact) and anybody who disagrees with me is a racist" is ridiculous.

Kneebeefjerky Mon 06-May-13 11:22:21

Talkinpeace by contrast it could be argued that if there was less immigration more British people would be in work as higher wages would make work a much more attractive option that welfare. Higher wages would also reduce the welfare bill in terms of tax credits.

So we would be looking at a similar amount of people in work, less benefits being paid out and higher wages = similar amounts of tax being paid. Less strain on public services = less tax needed.

3MenAndMe Mon 06-May-13 11:45:53

That's kind o tread that gives me goose bumps and makes me doubt in big 'sisterhood' on MN...
I am foreigner,working for the NHS for the last 6 years(loved it,but bullying/harassment made it more difficult...and yes it was ethnicity related),raising my kids according to British standards and traditions and would not have it other way...Mixture of friends,mostly British as integration is the key,cannot imagine keeping away from this culture if I live here...It always seemed to be a duty to respect the culture whereever we lived and it was couple of European contries before the UK
So it is pure b****s to say that immigrants are living in separation/ghettos and do not integrate,taking jobs and benefits etc...
It makes me wonder what happen to this wonderful,tolerant country which I was enjoying as a kid(we used to come here for holidays and to this day British coast is my favourite destination....
Do not put everybody in one is really ignorant...

slug Tue 07-May-13 13:04:26

Talkinpeace. That only works if British people have the skills and qualifications to do the jobs with higher wages.

In my current profession, which is quite small, the number of British people is quite small. It's difficult to work out why this is except I suspect part of the problem is the rigidity of the English education system which seems to preclude students gaining the range of skills necessary.

In my previous profession, the skills shortage was very apparent. Even 5 years after leaving and swearing I would never go back, I still get a couple of contacts a month from recruitment agencies or direct requests from employers. There simply aren't enough British people with the necessary skills.

Talkinpeace Tue 07-May-13 22:44:05

Most employers now are too lazy to train people.
They seem to expect school leavers and graduates to be magically "ready" to work for them.
When actually companies should assume that all new recruits are a blank canvas, put in a training budget in exchange for lower wages in the first year and MAKE it work.

But hiring foreigners is easier grin
which (as a foreigner) suits me just fine wink

I suspect the problem is not actually the number of immigrants, but the UK's ability to control who comes in. I am an emigrant to NZ. I'd estimate that NZ is probably slightly less racist than the UK, but only slightly. However, the proportion of its population that is foreign-born is probably similar to Australia and far, far greater than the UK.

Generally speaking, Kiwis aren't fussed about immigration. This is probably because everyone knows that the NZ parliament has absolute control over the laws relating to immigration, with the unimportant exception of the UN refugee quota. People know that if it appears that too many immigrants are arriving, the laws can easily be tightened up.

This is in complete contrast to the UK, whose government has surrendered legal and political control of its borders to Brussels.

mirry2 Wed 08-May-13 08:09:54

Toadinthehole - I really don't beleive you can describe the UK as racist.
Out of interest, what is the population of NZ and the size of the country?


There is racism in every country. My comment shouldn't be taken as meaning that the UK is particularly racist - I don't think it is, comparatively speaking, but you will accept that the UK is not free of racism.

As for your second point, NZ is a village of four million people, cramped into a few urban centres. Given that its main export is foodstuffs, there are just as much concerns about demand on land as in the UK. It just manifests itself differently. I should add that in NZ pressure to conform is much greater than in the UK.

mirry2 Wed 08-May-13 09:07:25

Toadinthehole - you said that UK is racist-what you should have said is that some people in the UK are racist. We are not racist as a nation. You are free to say what you like about NZ being a racist country. I have no idea whether it is or not.

I'm comfortable with what I said, and I know what I'm talking about. If it offends you, that's too bad.

mirry2 Wed 08-May-13 09:26:00

Toadinthehole I am not offended in the least. I just think that calling a country racist is a lazy way of talking.

The meaning of what I said was perfectly clear, and if you regard it as lazy, then I regard you as rather preoccupied with semantics. I'm glad, however, that you aren't offended.

slug Wed 08-May-13 10:06:40

NZ has about the same land area as the UK but only about 4.5 million in population. The problem NZ has with immigration is the internal market is so small that many of it's educated professionals have to emigrate to get a job. The brain drain is a massive problem there. They all turn up in the UK where the job market is just so much bigger.

It interesting though that a small country can manage to educate and skill students to a level that the UK seems unable to manage.

That's obvious enough.

There is far more competition for teaching jobs in NZ and as a result the standard of teaching is higher. Furthermore, NZ teachers are assumed to know what they're doing, and so aren't micromanaged like in the UK. The quality of the local schools is the major reason we remain here, although I am worried about the our two DDs' employment prospects when they grow up.

However, as NZ is (winks at mirry2) also less sexist than the UK, perhaps that won't be a problem.

slug Wed 08-May-13 10:27:22

It's not just the quality of the teaching Toadinthehole, it's also the breadth. The UK severely restricts students in the A level years. University degrees are also very prescriptive.

I used to horrify my students in the UK when I pointed out to them I studied 5 A levels. (and no, the UK ones are not harder than the NZ ones, I've taught both) There was also the requirement, at least when I went to school (old gimmer emoticon) to take English in the 6th form. I seem to remember my school also requiring maths at that level. Unlike the UK where you can specialise, this policy turns out science students who are capable of writing clearly and coherently and arts students who are also numerate.

I think NCEA doesn't require pupils to take maths and English to 6th form any more sad, although it's something universities expect to see.

University degrees are also shorter. A New Zealand LLB with honours takes 4 1/2 years; in England only 3; in Scotland 4 (but they start a year earlier, which means they specialise earlier).

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