DH announces quack job search

(91 Posts)
MurielPuce Thu 02-May-13 07:05:09

Help me, mumsnetters... So, we're having a tough time financially; like everyone else, the bum economy has hit us hard. Both DH and I do freelance consulting, and this year has been so tough! The overwhelming bulk of the income for the past 5 years (easily 2/3rds) has been mine, and because we've both taken fewer jobs to work around the kids, we've had basically no money coming in since December.

Yesterday, while opening another huge mortgage bill, which I will pay, I say, "So what are your plans for work this year?" And he goes, "I'm thinking about taking a course in kinesiology.... maybe get some clients."


First of all, let me say that DH is a genius. Without exaggeration he is unbelievably smart. He can do the Guardian cryptic crossword in an hour. He outperforms winning University Challenge teams, he speaks fluent French & is teaching the kids, he is a statistics nut who actually understands how the stock market works. When I met him he was doing an economics degree. He's incredibly clever, a good dad, and a nice guy.

"Applied Kinesiology", as far as I can make out, is a kind of alternative therapy where you wave crystals over the body correspondent to different organ functions and that connects to muscle functions. For example, if your foot hurts, a therapist waves a crystal near your liver, and presto, your foot is fixed. I think. I'm not sure how it works, or that it does work; the first 10 searches for "kinesiology" on the web return results that say "quackery". DH had a session last year that he felt helped him, and has had like 5 other sessions since, and now wants to go into it as a career.

I can't support this! I mean, financially, I DON"T MAKE ENOUGH MONEY to be the sole breadwinner while he gets set up, even when he is up and running his income prospects are v-e-r-y l-o-w, and I absolutely cannot get behind a job that I am embarrassed to describe to others. Secondly, I love him, but his people skills are TERRIBLE. He is definitely a back-office type of personality. How can he build a career, support 2 kids when the whole job of a therapist relies upon being good with people? If he would have said "teacher training" or "law school" or even "medical school" I would have been 100% behind him, but I am not okay with this!

Am I being unreasonable? Someone, give me advice please. I am too embarrassed to talk to friends or family about it, and every time I look at him, I feel like I could strangle him, so I am absolutely not in a place to talk to him rationally right now.

ElleMcFearsome Thu 02-May-13 07:14:15

A whole list of questions:

How much does the training cost? I'm assuming even with something as woo as kinesiology there's training (that probably costs a lot!) Where will this money come from?

Will he be able to do other work whilst he's training to bring in some income? Are there other jobs available that he could do, thereby removing some of the financial burden from your shoulders?

Has he done any research into whether there is a market for this sort of thing?

Is he ok with effectively peddling snake oil treatments to people who can be really desperate and vulnerable?

Does he tend to have these sorts of impulses often (i.e. will it be something else that catches his eye in a few months?) Maybe a session with a careers advisor, if he feels like he's floating and wants to get a career on track?

Southeastdweller Thu 02-May-13 07:17:06

I think you need time out to get your thoughts together and explain, with the emphasis on practicalities, how him doing the course and the lack of opportunities in this line of work will set you back financially. Perhaps he might respond positively to you having worked out on a spreadsheet his projected loss of earnings against your outgoings?

You seem very concerned with outward appearances. I don't think you should be embarrassed to talk to your loved ones about it.

And if he really is a "back office" type (charmingly put - hope he doesn't read this), how come he does consulting?

NeoMaxiZoomDweebie Thu 02-May-13 07:19:11

I don't think my understanding of Kineseology is the same as yours. My DH had a course and it didn't involve any crystals...aside from that..I so relate to your issues. You could suggest he gets a job in a call centre to fund the course....have you told him that the course will be too expensive?

MurielPuce Thu 02-May-13 07:47:34

@ElleMcFearsome There is training, but I don't know how much it costs.... He's kept quiet about this one for a while. He floated it a year ago when we were a little more solvent, and I dismissed it then, so I was really surprised to have it come up again yesterday. I think the fact that I feel his personality isn't suited to building up a business based on client relationships and dealing with people in an intimate setting is something I see as a challenge but he doesn't...

@Southeastdweller I'm less concerned about outward appearances than it might seem from this post, it's just that all my loved ones expressed amusement (okay, all our friends laughed and said "what a nut your DH is!") when he started having sessions with a kinesiologist, so I don't feel comfortable outing his decision to pursue it as a career. Yes, he is sort of back-office and in consulting, but he's usually the numbers guy in his team-based work, and the numbers guys seem allowed to be a little wonky ;)

@NeoMaxiZoomDweebie You're right that my understanding of AK is probably not correct. His therapist (who does sessions in our home as he doesn't have a studio) uses crystals and tiny vials of substances, but maybe that's not how it works generally. After he did his course, did your DH pursue a career in it? How did it go? What was it like for your family?

diddl Thu 02-May-13 07:49:26

If you can't afford the time/money, then you can't.

If a time comes that you can, then I think that you should support him.

Perhaps money would be better spent improving his people skills?

ElleMcFearsome Thu 02-May-13 07:55:33

Holding my hand up here - my DM dragged took me to a kinesiologist when I was about 12. It freaked me out - no crystals but lots of vials of something that he held in one hand (one at a time), whilst moving them round my body (no touching - not as dodgy as it sounds) and rubbing the thumb and the middle finger of his free hand together. Apparently the friction would change when he found the right combination. Can't even remember what I was allegedly lacking now. All I needed was a pair of fricking glasses ffs (which I eventually got). So I might be biased...

I do think the way to approach it is from a factual, numbers stance. Like diddl says, if you can't afford it, you can't. I'm assuming this also would be the case if he was thinking about medical/law training?

Emsmaman Thu 02-May-13 08:10:05

I know this is not the question but if your dh is fluent in french and teaching your dc's successfully can you encourage him to do something with this to earn money? There are a couple of french playgroups in my area that charge roughly £10 per hour per child. You don't need to be ofsted regulated just CRB checked, few french worksheets/songs etc and some free play time where your dh only speaks french with the kids et voila, decent second income for the family and on extra time spent, if he would have been teaching the kids anyway.

To bring it back on topic, if he was earning the money for the kinesiology course by doing something like this, would you be happier about it?

Emsmaman Thu 02-May-13 08:11:15

sorry no extra time spent

Planetofthedrapes Thu 02-May-13 08:52:00

Kinesiology.....sounds like bollocks to me hmm......and you say he is a whizz at economics?? Can he not see there is very little market for it.

My homeopathist does ak, she makes a killing from it! Fifty an hour to see her and she's fully booked. Not bad money if you can get the clients!

From a quick google, training courses will probably cost in the region of £4000-£5000 so your dh needs to tell you how he is going to raise the funds for that. It sounds like he's not thought it through at all.

MolehillAlchemy Thu 02-May-13 09:23:51

Could he have meant a course in Keynesian economics? Which is absolutely nothing to do with crystals!!

expatinscotland Thu 02-May-13 09:24:35

But he's not doing homeopathy, he wants to do this crap.

How do you pay the bills with no money?

You need to be honest with each other.

ZillionChocolate Thu 02-May-13 09:27:53

He needs to put together a business plan for the two of you to discuss.

I'd be mortified if my DH 1. Believed in something which was presumably a fancy placebo or 2. Didn't believe but was willing to target the vulnerable.

IsItMeOr Thu 02-May-13 09:36:13

Oh wow OP, you have my sympathies. I think Zillion has put their finger on why I would be very uneasy about supporting this.

Although I have come across a non-religious person married to a vicar, so it must be possible to make option 1 work - although I'm not sure I could.

Is he familar with Ben Goldacre? His book has a good explanation of why this kind of thing is nonsense, which might just appeal to his intellectual side.

I agree with others that if he wants to earn the money to do this himself, and do it in his spare time, then you should support it. I wouldn't worry too much beyond that as there's no way he'll make a career of it anyway

If he wants the family (i.e. you) to financially support this career change then he needs to do a hard sell.

Make it clear from the off that turning down paid consultancy work for this will not sit well with you.

I don't think it's really the issue here whether the treatment works. Plenty of people don't believe the guiding principles of homeopathy, but I've never met a homeopath who peddled it without believing it (although you read about them), and lots of people swear by it. I'm happy for all that to go on as long as everyone's happy. A bit like people going to church. If my DP "found God" that would be hard for me but I'd probably find a way to live with it.

What is a problem is him using family resources in retraining at a time when those resources are tight. That's what you should focus on.

badbride Thu 02-May-13 10:01:46

OP, from what you've said, kinesiology works via the placebo effect. A real effect, mind you, but probably one that requires a practitioner with good people skills to work...

Perhaps it would be worth (gently) exploring his reasons behind suggesting this career change? What are his motivations for picking kinesiology? Does he want to help people, for example?

Once you've got a list of motivations, perhaps you could subtly steer him towards something more suitable...

FriendlyLadybird Thu 02-May-13 10:07:28

Is it kineseology or applied kineseology? Because my understanding of the former is it's a bit like physiotherapy -- it's the science of human movement. Applied kineseology is the dodgy one.

I have to say, in your situation I wouldn't be thrilled either way. But the former seems to be a respectable field.

NeoMaxiZoomDweebie Thu 02-May-13 10:17:13

That's what I thought too LadyBird...my DH and my MIL have both had good treatment.

flossieraptor Thu 02-May-13 10:24:59

I don't know what area he is a consultant in but can he teach himself programming? DH has similar skills to yours, very high academic credentials, stats and he learnt several computer languages and now earns a lot from financial gambling. You may of course not have the stomach for professional gambling, but he could get a job as a programmer.

Also, surely he could train as an accountant and be guaranteed work.

Mondrian Thu 02-May-13 10:27:44

Desperate times require desperate measures. Obviously your current combined income from your respective professions is not bringing in enough so while you should welcome the process of change you are entitled to question the expected result of change in profession.

For the record high IQ does not necessarily translate to high income, but a high EQ does - reading your post I get the feeling that he is blessed in high IQ but you are the one with the higher EQ, if you work together you will make a great team.

Undertone Thu 02-May-13 10:50:12

I am concerned that he's going for a drastically different job to what he's used to because he's just really unhappy with what he's doing now. The new job in question includes a more touchy-feely emotional kind of service delivery. Maybe he feels a bit isolated and cold about numbers and being 'back office'.

I would say that he needs to explore those feelings before setting himself such a huge stretch target of being successful in an alternative therapy practise. As someone else said - why does his economic background mean he isn't aware that it would be almost impossible to make it a success?

Also - why are you getting so wound up to the point that you can't even talk to him about it? He probably has no earthly idea that you feel this way. Do you feel that you would automatically go into 'attack' mode when speaking to him about it? Why? Just because you're tense and resentful about money? Does he not tend to listen to you when you try and be reasonable?

Laquitar Thu 02-May-13 11:40:18

In my area every second person seems to have been trained as therapist. The shop windows are full of ads, the local shops have 100s of leaflets, they seem to be too many. Maybe there was a time when there was a market for this but i really think the time has passed. Unless you live in a city or area that there is still room for new therapists.

It is a bit like the cake bussiness imo, too many people went for it.

pandaptogether Thu 02-May-13 11:44:11

I knew someone that did holisitic healing for horses including kineseolgy, they made a lot of money from it but it takes a long time to get the client base.

Agree that accountancy might be a good option.

ChasingStaplers Thu 02-May-13 11:47:18

Have you looked kinesiology up?

Apparently Canada is one of the only countries that recognises it as a professional designation. He speaks fluent French too and is teaching the DC?
Perhaps he's planning a move to Canada?! grin

MurielPuce Thu 02-May-13 12:09:18

Hi, OP here... so, the career-change situation is that for the past 10 years we've both done project-based team work on contract for big consulting firms (all over the world, we're quite good at it), but with the bad economy literally all our former clients are finding ways to do more with less, ergo hiring fewer contractors. For both of us, there's just less work out there, period (it kind of suddenly dropped off), and that's why our incomes have dwindled in the last year. We still get the odd job, but nowhere near the level we were at before kids (topic for another thread). We are keeping our heads above water, but barely.

So, DH (and I, as it happens) are both casting around for new work situations (for a lot of reasons we're both looking to change directions from the work we were doing--parenthood is a huge part of that), and while I'm networking & sending out CVs etc., he's fixated on learning to practice an alternative therapy (he wants to study 'applied kinesiology'; it's kinesthesiology that's actual medical training). He does believe in it, but I am insanely skeptical. Whether it works or not (I have an opinion but I don't know for sure; would love to hear others' experiences) isn't as much of an issue for me as the fact that the one thing he'd need to be really good at (working closely with people in an intimate setting; selling a therapy that could be seen as snake oil) to be successful isn't his forté.

I would support him (financially, emotionally) if he wanted to study something that would more obviously lead to a more secure job in the future, but because I don't know enough about the business side of an alternative therapy, (especially one that to me seems a bit, um, flaky) I just can't make myself get behind it. I know I sound like a crazy 1950's Stepford Wife too because when we got married it seemed like he was cruising toward a bright future in finance, and now 10 years down the line he's talking crystals and vials and vibrations. I honestly feel blindsided by this. Who is he?!?!?

I feel like I can't talk to him right now because I have to get my head together; I'm in panic mode and immediately claw at "possible solutions" (sell the house! move back in with mum and dad! sell my plasma!), and that's not helpful. This just happened yesterday. He knows I'm POd because we had a big fight when he brought it up; since then I literally can't look at him without wanting to punch him in the face.

@ConfusedPixie, your homeopathist who does AK... is that all she does, or does she practice other stuff too? DH's AK therapist charges £50/hour, but I think his main gig is doing physiotherapy at a gym somewhere. Really, honestly would love to hear others' experiences about AK/being married to an alternative therapist.

aldiwhore Thu 02-May-13 12:14:27

From a business point of view, will he make money?

Strangely, in the recession, these things can actually thrive. People may not be able to make big purchases, but they do look for cheap fixes. Same happened in the WWII, people had very little, were 'poor' but women still had their hair set.

Alternative health, and beauty in general are doing not so bad in this current climate. An aquiantence's nail salon is booming, my hippy friend's 'woo' clinic is doing brilliantly.

Work back from potential profit, and then if you still think it's quakery, at least you will see perhaps that it could be a good business FOR NOW.

YANBU to feel utterly perplexed.

Mondrian Thu 02-May-13 12:24:57

Perhaps it's better to start a new thread with "applied kinesiology" in the title and make your posting a bit more specific about AK & its current and future prospects.

TheseGoToEleven Thu 02-May-13 12:36:02

I am in Canada and kinesiology was a Uni course when I was there, as far as I understood it was the science of human movement. Never heard of applied kinesiology but I would have thought that was physiotherapy! Ha, learn something every day.

mistlethrush Thu 02-May-13 12:48:10

Muriel - it seems to me that, at the present time, your family finances are not such that you can afford for him to do a training course in something that will not guarantee a decent return pretty quickly. Could you try to put your 'woo' prejudice (quite reasonable in my mind, but set that aside) to one side and try to calmly get the business / finance side of things over to him? How long would it take him to train - how much money - and how would the business run, he clearly would not be able to charge £50 per hour when he was starting out so how long would it take to even cover the training costs - what about advertising, would he be willing to get out there and sell himself etc - I would hope that if you looked at the nuts and bolts they would not add up and you can leave the woo side of things completely out of the picture.

LessMissAbs Thu 02-May-13 12:48:48

When I met him he was doing an economics degree

Did he finish that degree?

What does he consult in?

Theres lots of people who can speak foreign languages and do crosswords, but unless its a marketable skill and makes money, its not much use.

I should imagine demand for kinesiology is limited - I know theres no demand for it here, amongst all the other therapies available, and one area might support only one such therapist, if any. Does he have any kind of medical or caring background, or a lot of charisma?

If he understands how financial markets work, why isn't he doing something related to that?

ICBINEG Thu 02-May-13 13:17:40

You know that someone just got locked up for selling woo bomb detectors?

This applied kinesiology might be significantly less likely to actually kill anyone (although not impossible if they avoid real treatment because of it) but it is still fraud. Sooner or later our justice system will catch up to this idea, and start locking up people who lie about the efficacy of their therapies.

It seems a waste to pay money to learn how to do fraud when your DH can probably work it out himself...but basically I wouldn't got there...it isn't illegal yet...but it will be.

seeker Thu 02-May-13 13:27:55

I suppose it depends whether you are prepared to be part of defrauding the gullible public.

Spuderoonerism Thu 02-May-13 13:55:57

Could he live with a death on his conscience?

It's not just woo, it's dangerous, immoral woo which preys on vulnerable people promising diagnoses and cures that can have a serious impact on their health even if they don't actually kill you.

seeker Thu 02-May-13 14:03:37

And I don't care who comes on and says "how very dare you- I had a nasty case of bloating, a slightly sore back and a vague feeing of ennui- the doctors could do nothing for me. My kinesiologist sorted it out in only 25 sessions at 30 quid a session"

cumfy Thu 02-May-13 15:23:53

So what happened to the Economics degree ?

And with his knowledge of markets, why did he not predict and circumnavigate this current market glitch in your sector ?

The number of people who are genuinely as clever as you make DH out to be is miniscule.

The number of people who think they are genuinely as clever as you make DH out to be is quite large.

Given your DH wishes to study kinesiology, have you ever considered reviewing into which of these two groups DH really fits ?

TigerseyeMum Thu 02-May-13 15:52:08

I think there is something else going on here aside from the woo stuff.

I'm trained in psychotherapy and often patients I see who are in a life change or crisis can do very well in treatment and subsequently announce they want to 'be a counsellor' like me. It's a recognised phenomenon.

He's feeling insecure in life right now potentially due to upheaval and disillusionment with job choices do far, and the woo stuff connected with him and made him feel better, and possibly gave him time to think. Ergo he now wants to be a woo practitioner.

Seems like he needs to set aside the woo stuff and address the root of his insecurity. Because until he does that he won't be settled, and there's no point embarking on costly training then finding that that's not what he really wanted after all.

The woo stuff is just the iceberg tip, the real stuff is going on under the surface.

IsItMeOr Thu 02-May-13 17:50:33

No, AK is definitely woo. That doesn't mean that people don't find it helpful - placebo effect is real and apparently getting stronger. I personally also think that it helps people having somebody caring and kindly listen to their problems and take them seriously.

This is certainly not an easy fix though, is it?

Can you afford for him to see a reputable psychotherapist, who might be able to help him find his way through this personal crisis?

Sorry that finances are so hard for you at the mo. You're not alone in that, sadly. Hope it improves for you soon.

TigerseyeMum Thu 02-May-13 18:20:31

Psychotherapy is free on the NHS though waiting times and duration vary. It might be worth suggesting he talk such a radical change through.

MurielPuce Thu 02-May-13 19:31:37

@TigerseyeMum Thanks, that's really helpful. I absolutely see the "I was helped, now I want to help others" going on with him, and I think for both of us, the stress of having come to the end of our previous jobs' natural lifecycle (not to get into specifics for all those who asked, but it was high-pressure, high-excitement, involved a lot of traveling, long nights, unpredictable hours, and not at all ideal for parents). I think he's just reaching out for any kind of lifeboat.

Because a couple of people asked, he finished the Econ degree with honours, and soon after we both got caught up doing the contract-based consulting work we were doing in the heady days of the dotcom boom (that's where we met); but as we know, times change! Also, what we were doing is/was a young person's game and absolutely not suitable for late-thirty-somethings with young kids at home. Used to be we'd get a call sending us to Abu Dhabi tomorrow, and we'd be able to hop on a plane.... not with a 4-yo DD and 18-month DS at home now. We both anticipated this would happen, but for the last five years the work has still been steadily trickling in; although the trickle has definitely dried up now to a drip and a drop. It's not like it caught either one of us by surprise; because when it was good it was GOOD we stayed a bit too long at the party. While I'm now trying to transition into something else in a similar field more compatible with parenthood, facing a change that has been forced upon him my DH is searching for meaning in woo. And that's what bugs me most-- with all of his (actual) intelligence, why is he putting his faith in such utter nonsense? It can only be the phenomenon that TigerseyeMum described.

Anyhow, all of this has been enormously helpful, thanks for helping me vent. I've never explored psychotherapy on the NHS but that's a good suggestion... do you start with your GP?

TigerseyeMum Thu 02-May-13 20:02:06

Yes you speak to your gp who can refer you to Iapt. The NHS offers short term therapy but this can be hugely helpful. Depending on area you can expect either CBT, IPT or counselling.

If he doesn't meet the threshold for treatment (ie doesn't meet criteria for depression or anxiety) you can usually find free or low cost counselling locally.

If you decide on private look for someone accredited with (usually) babcp, bacp, ukcp or ukrc, or ipta.

LessMissAbs Thu 02-May-13 20:22:31

You sound in awe of his great intelligence OP. I take it he got a first? Perhaps you both need to be more practical and also consider what he is bringing in financially to your family? Surely with his great intelligence and economics degree, he will be able to get a reasonably well paid job and no need to become a therapist?

FarBetterNow Thu 02-May-13 20:54:11

Muriel: Why don't you go and have a kinesiology treatment and then try a crystal treatment or see a herbalist.
You may be very surprised.
Kinesiology works brilliantly to find food sensitivities and allergies.

If his people skills are so bad, then teacher training, law school or medical training will be pointless too.

I would rather have a husband who did than one who worked in the City in derivitive trading. I find that a lot wierder than crystals.

If your mortgage is massive, how about downsizing to take the pressure off?

FarBetterNow Thu 02-May-13 20:56:53

I do find the suggestion that he has a mental health problem because he wants to be a complimentary therapist.

seeker Thu 02-May-13 23:44:53

"Kinesiology works brilliantly to find food sensitivities and allergies."

No it doesn't.

Mine hasn't got another job, only homeopathy and ak. Works in a few different places though.

I'm really sceptical about ak, but must admit I was really surprised when she used it on me at how it actually worked. the way she did it with me, neither of us knew which vial I had in my hand and she 'tested' at least twenty things to which I reacted/didn't react to appropriately, so I'm not sure if/how the placebo affect works in that case! I'm still rather thrown by it actually confused just going with the flow now as it can't do any harm as long as you're sensible about it and don't forgo modern medicine in favour of it!

IsItMeOr Fri 03-May-13 08:51:07

Seeker grin

ConfusedPixie well, your description makes me wonder who prepared the vials in the first place.

Have you read Bad Science by Ben Goldacre? He gives a very good explanation of how you would need to test these kinds of therapies objectively.

Also, if you're talking about food sensitivies or allergies that wouldn't be detected by medical tests, then they probably don't exist. So, you're wondering why you see an improvement, yes? Well, first thing is that you were probably going to feel better in a bit if you did nothing at all. Second is that, if you change something in your diet thinking that it will help then you have triggered the placebo effect.

The only thing in my diet that has changed is eating gluten, and I did that long before seeing this woman. I haven't done anything based on the ak, I was just very surprised by it and shared my observation.

I am still sceptical about it, but I'm willing to give some things a try even if they don't make any sense. I use her for the homeopathy after being talked into trying it but she asked if I wanted to try ak so I did. I'm not interested in discussing it's quack status tbh as I know that scientifically it shouldn't work and I'm still trying to work out how I feel about it!

WaitingForMe Fri 03-May-13 09:13:25

I have a woo practitioner but still take it with a pinch of salt.

I had a somewhat traumatic labour. I had a Reiki session and all my chakras or whatever were rebalanced. Yay I felt better grin

What really happened was that my traumatic labour left me feeling disempowered, my practitioner made my feelings seem important and real then spent an hour focusing on the importance of me. I felt empowered again and was fixed.

The important thing here though is that my practitioner worked in an office while she trained. She didn't give up the conventional life for a more interesting one. She did both and worked bloody hard!

IsItMeOr Fri 03-May-13 09:36:44

Sorry if you thought I was having a go ConfusedPixie, I thought you were asking and so I tried to share what I'd found.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I am a big fan of the placebo effect, and irritate/amuse DH by insisting that I need Panadol rather than the generic paracetamol that he uses. Now that he got me to read Bad Science, I have been able to explain to him that what I'm buying with the extra cash is the added placebo effect ;)

I realised that what I said about who filled the vials was a red herring. What would be a proper test of the findings, I think, would be to see whether the results were exactly replicated if you went to x other practitioners.

Our minds and bodies are amazing and it seems pretty clear that we don't fully understand how they work yet.

ovenchips Fri 03-May-13 10:05:45

I don't know why the focus is on disparaging the course your husband wants to go on. It's him interested in the subject, not you, nor do you have to be.

I agree it doesn't sound practical and your priority has to be keeping an income, but I don't know why it should be all about mocking the course (I have zero experience/interest in it myself) that your husband seems to have a genuine interest in. Whether you're 'embarrassed' by it is of no consequence. It's not about you.

The situation seems to be that both of your current careers seem to have gone off the boil through absolutely no fault of your own. You both need to decide how you can go forward.

If you wanted to take your life in a direction you never thought you'd want to go in (and this does happen, people can change tremendously) I would hope you'd get a better initial response from your husband than the one you've given him. I hope he'd at least hear you out and acknowledge your interest.

ICBINEG Fri 03-May-13 10:42:17

oven huh? Of course it is about the OP too...

Are you really saying that if one half of a marriage wants to get into business in a way that the other considers is immoral and fraudulent then it is nothing to do with the other?

If my DH did this, we would be talking divorce....certainly this would affect us both and not just him.

ovenchips Fri 03-May-13 10:59:47

I don't think I'm saying that.

What I am trying to say is that if the husband is genuine in his interest in it and wanted to make a living from it, then I think you have to respect his 'belief' in it. The OP doesn't have to agree to 'believe' in it, but the husband is a separate person and can't really be told what is correct, what is 'quack' etc. it's up to him to make his own mind up.

If he was genuinely practising it and genuinely believed in its benefits, then he is neither immoral nor fraudulent is he? As I say I have zero interest in the subject myself but there are genuine (and fake) practitioners of all sorts of things I wouldn't ever consider using.

seeker Fri 03-May-13 12:23:58

Why should anyone respect belief in bullshit?

ICBINEG Fri 03-May-13 12:35:18

oven it is fraud to claim health benefits where none have been proven.

Your belief in the benefits has nothing to do with it.

It is still fraud even if you 'believe'.

ovenchips Fri 03-May-13 13:22:21

If it were fraud in the criminal sense, then how do police allow these alternative practices to operate?

I don't think you have to respect everything you think is bullshit. But do you not have to have some respect for your husband, whom the OP seems to love and be happy with otherwise? Are they not allowed to hold different ideas to you?

I just don't seem to understand this thread where everyone is slamming the OP's husband because he's declared an interest in something that is completely out of the OP's comfort zone and that she has no time for.

If the relationship was good otherwise, I would really want to try to accept my husband for what he is even though the concept would be uncomfortable making to me. To me it's not about the rights or wrongs of kinesiology it's about trying to be a respectful partner and not trying to control the other's views.

So for other people would this almost certainly have to mean splitting up?

seeker Fri 03-May-13 14:05:15

It's not a matter of not respecting something you think is bullshit- it's not respecting something that is bullshit!

LessMissAbs Fri 03-May-13 14:12:36

Ovenchips I just don't seem to understand this thread where everyone is slamming the OP's husband because he's declared an interest in something that is completely out of the OP's comfort zone and that she has no time for. If the relationship was good otherwise, I would really want to try to accept my husband for what he is even though the concept would be uncomfortable making to me. To me it's not about the rights or wrongs of kinesiology it's about trying to be a respectful partner and not trying to control the other's views

Except its views that shes going to have to financially subsidise and pay for!

ovenchips Fri 03-May-13 14:14:43

Seeker So how would you reconcile a beloved husband/ partner suddenly acquiring such an interest/belief after a long and happy time together? Such changes are uncommon but they do happen. That's what I'm talking about. Not what the interest/belief is per se, but how you would accommodate it in your relationship.

ovenchips Fri 03-May-13 14:21:55

PS I agree that the cost and how his plans would be funded does matter. I am not particularly in favour of the OP's husband's plans, they sound worryingly impractical as I said upthread. I am just saying whether OP is also a proponent of kinesiology does not seem relevant.. I don't think you can squash your husband's plans purely on the basis that you think it's bollocks and a bit embarrassing to you.

ICBINEG Fri 03-May-13 14:27:54

oven Embarrassing would not be a problem for my marriage. Immoral would be a problem for my marriage.

At the moment it is against the law to advertise health benefits that are not proven.

Actually taking peoples money should be classed as fraud but isn't currently...it might be soon...

seeker Fri 03-May-13 14:28:20

"about. Not what the interest/belief is per se, but how you would accommodate it in your relationship."

I don't think I could. It would mean that the person was not the person I thought he was. It would mean that either he was the sort of person who could prey the gullible and vulnerable and take their money, OR he was the sort of person who could believe unscientific bullshit. I don't think I could stay in a relationship with either.

Dahlen Fri 03-May-13 14:32:23

I think it's a mistake to get sucked into the "is kinesiology really just woo" argument. The point is that it sounds highly unlikely that your DH won't be able to make a viable business out of it.

Any therapy, but particularly holistic ones, requires good people skills. If your DH doesn't have those, he won't be able to establish a good enough client base to make it a viable concern, sorry.

LessMissAbs Fri 03-May-13 14:32:29

In actual fact OP, the more I hear about him, the more inclined I am to believe your DH is a genius. You earn the bulk of the income, despite working in much the same field, and he feels able to announce a career change with you funding his training period, with no finite benefits at the end of it. Clearly some kind of genius at work there.

ICBINEG Fri 03-May-13 14:45:48

seeker yup we would have to leave both our other halves and team up together!

seeker Fri 03-May-13 14:50:37

Best offer I've had all week!

<tries to imagine pragmatic, Yorkshire physicist DP retraining as a kinesiologist. Fails. >

ovenchips Fri 03-May-13 14:52:10

Seeker and ICBINEG thanks for answering. Clearly, I have a different opinion. As long as no-one tries to drum them into me, people's beliefs in anything be it conventional/ alternative do not much bother me.

My family circs mean my life has a lot more worry and stress than most and I think now something essentially idiosyncratic such as personal beliefs do not hold that much importance to me. Don't really have the headspace for it I think!

Really interesting to think you would probably have to end a relationship for those reasons.

seeker Fri 03-May-13 14:55:50

I wouldn't automatically end a relationship if my partner suddenly started to hold idiosyncratic beliefs.

I would if he defrauded the vulnerable either knowingly or unknowingly by making money out of said idiosyncratic beliefs.

VERY different things.

ICBINEG Fri 03-May-13 14:58:08

seeker well quite...my DH is also a physicist! We have sooo much in common...we should totally hook up in this parallel universe we have created.

oven it isn't really a fair test because you don't marry someone in the first place if you feel as strongly as I do in the scientific method, and they believe in the healing power of amber etc.

notfluffy Fri 03-May-13 15:00:43

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

seeker Fri 03-May-13 15:01:38

Reiki practitioner- woo flavoured pyramid selling.

seeker Fri 03-May-13 15:03:32

ICEBiNEG- ours isn't a parallel universe- it's the real world. It's them that inhabit the parallel universe!

RocknRollNerd Fri 03-May-13 15:19:47

The thing is, if someone came on and suggested their DH was wanting to go and make a living doing the shell-game on street corners most people would rightly be at least a bit hmm about that and question the values the DH had.

Training up in the preposterous and potentially downright dangerous bollocks which is kinesiology is far far worse. It's all terribly fluffy when it's telling people who have nothing wrong with them that they'll feel far better because the magnets and little vials say they should give up wheat, refined sugar, dairy and red meat - you make cash, the victims clients feel better because once you can't eat cakes, biscuits, ready made lasagne etc then no shit sherlock you will feel better as you're eating more fresh fruit and veg. It's a dangerous ball game when some mum brings a kid in who actually has allergies and the magnets don't suggest giving up lupin and the kid goes into anaphylactic shock when they eat some onion rings on a day out.

LadyHarrietdeSpook Fri 03-May-13 15:40:56

OP I am pretty confident I have some idea of the sort of consulting background you come from and what you're trying to do now.

Setting aside the woo thing for a moment: are you absolutely sure that you've both exhausted all avenues for marketing yourselves? My DSIL has just joined a consultancy that is a breakaway from one of the big boys and also did very well freelance. Her sector is retail. Have you really worked the Linkedin thing/all possible options for plying your wares? I know it's exhausting.

I mean - if it were me, I'd be saying to DH before he considers any sort of training course that's paid you guys need an 'EGM' to review this and what options for paid work in your current field there are. You have to pay the bills, end of. If anything I would suggest that one of you considers a contract elsewhere to pay the bills as an interim as opposed to a lengthy and expensive retrain.

I would love to go off and finish my novel but DH can't subsidize us; your DH needs to be realistic about your ability to do this.

He absolutely cannot lean on you to sort it all out while he pursues something like this which has absolutely no gaurantee of a return (and poss worse. Full disclosure: I agree with Seeker, et al.)#

YANBU, I'd be splitting hairs in similar cirucmstances.

IsItMeOr Fri 03-May-13 15:50:02

ovenchips I'm perplexed that you struggle to understand why somebody would find it difficult to continue a relationship with someone they think is stupid.

And how does the amount of stress/worry in our lives impact on that? confused

ohyesiknowwhatyoumean Fri 03-May-13 16:19:42

I've ncd for this - been on MN for a few years, since exH left for the OW = who was more supportive of his bonkers beliefs. She was one of his clients and and they have now set themselves up doing couples counseling I believe hmm. Over our 25+yr relationship he had lots of weird therapy and while I was hmm I was generally supportive - he paid for it himself and some of it seemed to help placebo effect

He finally got very involved in something that I just thought was exploitative and bloody stupid and I told him I thought it was dishonest of those who ran that particular kind of therapy to charge people the kind of money they did. This was the relationship killer for him - and was the eventual grounds he used for my unreasonable behaviour in the divorce. Though to be fair I was very happy to be rid of him for that to be the case because I wasn't going to pretend I thought this therapy was anything other than an expensive crock of shit (though with enough common sense good stuff in it to hook people in).

I had lost respect for him when he insisted on pursuing this and it was the death knell of our marriage. He seems happy in la la land with his new disciple and I am certainly happier not having to be non-judgmental about something I judged to be very wrong.

I'm sorry this isn't more helpful OP - but if he is going down this track and you are not it might be a deal breaker.

ovenchips Fri 03-May-13 16:19:43

IsItMeOr. But OP doesn't think her husband is stupid. In fact she refers to him as a genius. She thinks his plan is stupid, which it may well be.

And if you don't get about the knock on effects of living with tremendous worry and stress, which doesn't leave you with a lot of time to worry about the morality and beliefs that others have, then you're pretty fortunate.

IsItMeOr Fri 03-May-13 17:40:33

ovenchips you're right, I made an assumption there.

Experiences growing up have left me with a focus on morality as a central part of myself, which I have found has stuck with me through lifes ups and downs. I don't generally worry about the morality and beliefs that others have, but I am intimately concerned with the morality and belief of the people I choose to spend my life with.

LittleFrieda Fri 03-May-13 17:52:20

OP, Did he complete his economics degree?

seeker Fri 03-May-13 20:13:01

I don't understand why being under worry and stress would make you less concerned about the morality of the person you were living with. I can understand how being very broke might make you compromise your moral compass, but not to care less about it. IYSMIM.

Oh, and OP- I don't think your measures of smartness are particularly rigorous- the Guardian crossword in an hour is OK but not brilliant, speaking French is something loads of people can do, as is having lots of general knowledge. What happened to the Economics degree?

IsItMeOr Fri 03-May-13 21:22:12

seeker glad it's not just me who struggles to follow that one. I can see your point about being tempted to compromise - I remember reading something by Viktor Frankl (survivor of Nazi concentration camps) who said that "the best of us did not survive", and explained that he believed some people chose to accept death by resisting in the camps rather than survive in a way that meant compromising their values. Not that I'm claiming I'd do that - luckily never been tested to that extreme.

ovenchips Sat 04-May-13 10:50:17

The circumstances I am talking about - living in a stressful situation - is specific to my family circs, it's too identifying to explain but relates to my child and husband both currently having a life threatening condition and being uncertain as to what the future holds.

That's all I was trying to explain. What I have found is that it makes very few other issues matter. Things that I might have had a moral viewpoint about at one time I simply don't now.

greenformica Sat 04-May-13 11:32:22

I've been to one to get my body pregnancy ready. Yes people skills and nutritional knowledge is essential. People go wanting solutions to problems. People talk (sometimes emotionally) about their issues - think of all the typical womens/mens issues (painful periods, infertility, depression, sex drive, addiction etc).

greenformica Sat 04-May-13 11:35:07

Why doesn't he look into something more practical and NHS approved? Like Podiatry? Lots of old people (and others) that need help with their feed and he could earn a good wage for himself.

greenformica Sat 04-May-13 11:35:34

feet not feed

greenformica Sat 04-May-13 11:35:57

Someone told me there are part time degrees

MurielPuce Tue 07-May-13 14:15:23

Hi there, OP here... so okay, thanks everyone for this, it's been really helpful, and I'm starting to clarify my thinking and find an inner peace about this somewhere. DH and I have talked a little bit, but we're still walking on eggshells.

Now I've had the weekend to mull it over, I think the situation is that I would be more behind a wacko career change if we had spare cash on hand (we don't; we have economised as far as possible; we need real jobs). I'm skeptical about the woo stuff, but it's not just AK that freaks me out; what really enrages me is the idea that faced with job loss his solution is to take a year to study something that may or may not pay off in the end, while essentially bringing in no income. If he came home and said he wanted to go to RADA and then try his hand at a professional acting career, I would freak out in exactly the same way, despite having had a professional acting career myself and knowing that actors are people (who support families) too. If he'd made this decision before we got married, I would be able to think it through rationally, maybe even support it, say, "Go for it-- fly free! Fly far!" and then back quietly away from the relationship to let him plough his own furrow. The thing is that we are now a family unit and support two living, breathing, eating, house-needing, clothes-wearing children as well as ourselves, so making choices to pursue extremely risky careers don't seem (to me) as easy to make.

Looking back over the various postings, I think what's could be going on with him is that we've both been cast adrift by good jobs that are effectively not available to us anymore, and he's reaching out for a lifeboat. He has been helped by a kinesiology practitioner (turns out his GI problems were a wheat allergy-- proposed by AK witch doctor and confirmed by GP-- although my skeptical mind says it was kind of an obvious diagnosis) so perhaps in his fevered jobs crisis he has found some calling to preach the AK gospel to others.... If it's a known phenomenon ("I didn't know where I was going so I talked to an x, and now I am one too!"), then I can see where he's coming from, but since we still can't talk to each other without bad feelings, it's really hard to get a sense of where his logical brain sits on this issue, or if he's even thought through a business plan for the future.

What embarrasses me is that I have unwittingly become the kind of Mrs. I never thought I'd be: giving up on my own ambitions to financially support a partner who doesn't seem to have any issues with a free ride. I can't, just can't talk to my family and friends about this, because I know I'm going to get the "he's a weirdo, I always knew it" speech. This is a challenge he and I are going to have to sort out on our own.

Thank you, mumsnet strangers, for helping me to get my head a little straighter. I really appreciate being able to vent.

MurielPuce Tue 07-May-13 14:29:30

Also, yeah, he did complete the Economics degree (got a first) and yes, I know that my parameters for describing his intelligence are laughable (fluency in French, his prowess at the cryptic crossword, etc.), but please allow this is a message board rather than a letter of recommendation. And yes, I know there is a lot going on in/near our current field and I am working the LinkedIn thing to try to stay afloat and/or examining all possible opportunities, but our family needs him to pull his weight too. Since he is the one with skills of some market value (in fact I have a music degree.... got into consulting by accident), it's making me nuts that he doesn't seem to want to use them anywhere except alternative therapy. angry

FairyWingsAndFlyingThings Tue 07-May-13 14:37:23

For some reason after reading your title op I though your husband was looking for a job as a duck.
I'm a little disappointed.

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