I think UKIP are the middle and upper class division of the BNP.... suggesting compulsory abortion for unborn babies with Down Syndrome

(189 Posts)
JakeBullet Tue 30-Apr-13 13:51:03

Or rather yet another of their candidates has made a stupid comment. They really are not all that good are they?

Here

Yet another reason not to vote for them.

JakeBullet Tue 30-Apr-13 13:53:00

....but of course "it doesn't represent party policy" according to a spokesman.

Here's a revolutionary idea for the "Spokesman".....why not kick him out if he doesn't represent you or your party?

hiddenhome Tue 30-Apr-13 13:55:20

Yes, he should be kicked out.

MrsWolowitz Tue 30-Apr-13 13:56:39

shock angry Ugh. Repugnant. Just awful.

HoHoHoNoYouDont Tue 30-Apr-13 13:57:36

Disgusting.

The man needs educating.

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Tue 30-Apr-13 13:57:45

wow. What a horrible man.

Compulsary abortion for all foetuses shown to have a disability. It's not a gigantic leap from that to killing people who are disabled after birth, is it?

That's always what I think is in someone's mind when they talk about killing unborn children with disabilities, anyway. That they think but daren't say that they think all people with disabilities should be killed. so they limit it to the unborn. But you just know what they really mean.

my two children have disabilities that can't be detected in utero and you do see the whole 'burden on society' thing.

Niklepic Tue 30-Apr-13 13:59:34

This was in Dec last year. There was uproar about it (my son is disabled). He was suspended from the party and then lost his seat.

exexpat Tue 30-Apr-13 14:00:32

That reminds me of that awful woman (Jessica something?) who used to come on here and say similar things. She was even invited on to a radio talk show where she basically told Riven (former MN regular with severely disabled daughter) that her DD should have been killed at birth. She was expelled by the BNP - sounds like UKIP would welcome her with open arms.

Fragglewump Tue 30-Apr-13 14:00:42

Yuk how disgusting! Bleurgh! Ever more disgusting thet middle England seems to be jumping on the ukip bandwagon.

HoHoHoNoYouDont Tue 30-Apr-13 14:00:59

Thanks for the update Niklepic. I'm glad he lost his seat.

NC78 Tue 30-Apr-13 14:01:10

vile

I've always thought UKIP were the posher persons BNP too.

exexpat Tue 30-Apr-13 14:03:02

UKIP are full of lovely, moderate, rational people like this one.

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Tue 30-Apr-13 14:03:05

I am glad to hear that, Nik.

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Tue 30-Apr-13 14:03:39

do you mean that clare kaw or whatever her name was, exex?

exexpat Tue 30-Apr-13 14:04:34
exexpat Tue 30-Apr-13 14:05:16

Ah, yes, that was it, hecsy - not sure why I thought her name was Jessica.

Callisto Tue 30-Apr-13 14:05:29

The man is repugnant, but surely this already happens? Isn't the nuchal (sp?) test carried out to establish whether or not the foetus has Downs, and if so an abortion is offered? I'm sure the Dr offered me such a test when I was pregnant and I turned it down because I wanted DD no matter what.

exexpat Tue 30-Apr-13 14:08:03

The clue is in the word 'compulsory', Callisto. Offering parents the chance to find out is one thing; some decide to abort, some don't. But saying that all babies with Downs should die is very, very different.

MrsDeVere Tue 30-Apr-13 14:10:10

No doubt posters will come along and tell you that UKIP members are all fine upstanding people who just want Britain to be great again.

Funny how many of these 'renegades' manage to slip through the vetting process isn't it? hmm

Callisto Tue 30-Apr-13 14:11:13

Sorry, yes missed that bit.

I think that also was a well known Nazi policy if I am not mistaken. It was part of creating the Master Race.

WilsonFrickett Tue 30-Apr-13 14:21:16

Although something like 90% of foeutuses who are diagnosed with Down's Syndrome are aborted anyway, so much as I abhor this man and his views, it's actually a debate society needs to have.

thegirliesmam Tue 30-Apr-13 14:33:59

what about the evidence supporting, that whilst younger mothers are actually the group of women most likely to have a child with ds, not the older women (who are more likely to have a child with a disability, not specifically or limited to ds); they are also the group of women who are more likely to obtain a false/positive result on the foetal downs syndrome screening. So while a mother may be told her child has ds, it may not. But better to not run the 'risk'....ridiculous. Women have raised children, irrespective of the challenges and difficulities of the child, and indeed themselves for centuries, if not thousands of years. What next? A cap on how many children a family can have? Mandatory abortion for ALL disabilities, irrespective of the ability science and kindness to allow these children a chance?

Callisto Tue 30-Apr-13 14:35:04

I'm really shocked by that statistic, Wilson, and saddened.

Loulybelle Tue 30-Apr-13 14:35:08

Ugh, digusting, what vile Nazi books has he been reading.

WilsonFrickett Tue 30-Apr-13 14:54:38

thegirlies younger women are only the group most likely to have a child with DS because they are not automatically screened for DS, in the way older women are.

callisto I should point out I am entirely pro-choice and most of the stats etc on this are published in anti-choice publications so I'm not linkying. And while I would never judge any woman for having a termination, it is on a societal level an extremely shocking and saddening statistic. We pretty much already have compulsory abortion for a specific group of women who are carrying children with a specific disability sad

However, I guess I'm probably hijacking so will bow out.

Startail Tue 30-Apr-13 14:56:00

I haven't seen our UKIP leaflet, The DDs (12&15) tell me it went straight in the bin for being anti gay marriage.

DD2 says it doesn't matter who you marry so your not voting for them!

And yes I would have aborted for DS. The world is a very tough place and I'm not certain it is right to bring a child into the world who is already at a massive disadvantage. Who may have major health problems and many never be able to live independently.

ComposHat Tue 30-Apr-13 14:57:06

Don't y'know, these are the Colourful and eccentric refreshingly non-PC members that Farage was banging on about.

Tailtwister Tue 30-Apr-13 15:05:51

Absolutely vile.

I'm surprised by that statistic too Wilson. I thought the % was much lower.

MoominsYonisAreScary Tue 30-Apr-13 15:11:55

Everyone's offered the screening for down syndrome now though, its just a blood test and scan to see if the baby is high risk.

Tailtwister Tue 30-Apr-13 15:17:50

I suppose that those with high risk results then have the choice of going ahead with a CVS or amnio then. I wouldn't imagine the drs would advise a termination unless the result was definitive.

In any case, it's the decision of the parents not a vile little man.

CogitoErgoSometimes Tue 30-Apr-13 15:19:06

UKIP are worrying. Farage is being very deceptive, putting on a glossy outward face about wanting the best for Britain, but he's being backed up by some seriously nasty types with their own far-right agenda. Facism/Nazism came to prominence on the back of 1930s economic collapse. Don't want history to repeat itself.

ComposHat Tue 30-Apr-13 15:27:50

Vile as they are, I can't get too worried about them. They are polling at an all time high of 10%.

The UKIP vote is spread too evenly across the country, they won't win a single seat at the next election.

They couldn't win Eastleigh at a mid-term by-election where the former MP had utterly disgraced the sitting party who are in an unpopular coalition in the middle of a recession.

Post 2015 UKIP will have the same number of MPs they have now - none!

Catlike Tue 30-Apr-13 15:28:34

What gets me is that there's no mention of quality of life, it's all about the "burden on the state".

I strongly support parents' rights to decide whether or not to continue with a pregnancy where the child's quality of life may be very low but that is because it's about consideration for the child themself, not about the financial costs of treating them!

This kind of rhetoric makes my blood run cold.

somebloke123 Tue 30-Apr-13 15:48:43

Absolutely vile and indefensible, agreed.

I have to say though that the title of the thread is thoroughly dishonest in stating that this is the UKIP position, then making a comparison with the BNP, only then in the body of the post to say that ... err ... actually it was only one of their councillors. And it turns out he was in any case suspended from the party and then lost his seat.

It would be a bit like saying that it is the policy of the Labour Party to defraud people of their pensions so that the senior party members could gamble it away on the gaming tables only then to add that - well, actually it was only one of their former MPs, Robert Maxwell, and he's dead anyway.

With the number of UKIP candidates expanding so much, and bearing in mind that it's not a closed organisation - anyone can join - it would be unsurprising that someone didn't turn up expressing an offensive opinion. Some people just want any old bandwaggon to jump onto.

It's especially unsurprising as Tory HQ has people systematically sifting through all UKIP candidates' social media sites looking for extremist remarks.

I think the real test is how the party then deals with it and they do seem to be making an effort here.

QuintessentialOHara Yes it was indeed a Nazi policy. It was also a very mainstream opinion among "respectable" Fabian and Bloomsbury types. Virginia Woolf thought that mentally disabled children should be put down. Marie Stopes disowned her own son for marrying a woman with short sight, as it would (according to her) contaminate the gene pool. George Bernard Shaw thought that economically unproductive people should be gassed.

In the interwar years eugenics was just as fashionable and respectable a topic at the dinner tables of Highgate and Hampstead as environmentalism is now.

Funnily enough it became much less fashionable after WW2 and there was mass amnesia about what popular opinion had been only a few years previously.

ScrambledSmegs Tue 30-Apr-13 15:52:34

I always get Claire Khaw and daftpunk muddled up in my head. Their approach to life seems so similar.

UKIP are the BNP for the Telegraph broadsheet classes. However, with more education often comes more inventive ways of being unpleasant hmm

exexpat Tue 30-Apr-13 15:56:35

UKIP is weeding out some of the ones that are stupid enough to spout racist and other offensive views in public, but the fact that they are attracting so many of them tells us a lot about the party. And it makes me suspect that many of the remaining members and candidates share similar views but are just slightly more media-savvy about revealing them in public. Here's another lovely UKIP local chairman they had to kick out.

flatpackhamster Tue 30-Apr-13 16:02:28

ScrambledSmegs

UKIP are the BNP for the Telegraph broadsheet classes. However, with more education often comes more inventive ways of being unpleasant.

Like Communism? Oh wait, you didn't mean that.

Given the hitching up of petticoats on Mumsnet and the Guardian website over UKIP, they seem to be doing very well. Of course, we'll see what comes out of the local elections. My gut feeling is that there is quite a lot of hype from the press at the moment, building UKIP up so that when the results come out they can say 'look, it wasn't that bad' and everyone can go back to waiting for the next episode of Game of Thrones.

But it does give all you Guardianistas someone else to feel superior to, so I suppose we should thank UKIP for that.

Dawndonna Tue 30-Apr-13 16:17:38

Thing is , flatpack I know I'm superior to Farage and his ilk.

In all honesty, I don't understand why you can't see that the stuff they come out with about people with disabilities is wrong.

slug Tue 30-Apr-13 16:32:28

Ahh, Nigel Farage, the Alan Partridge of UK politics.

Bridgetbidet Tue 30-Apr-13 16:36:10

And this one

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/the-northerner/2012/may/02/ukip-steve-moxon-whistleblower-home-office-beverley-hughes

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/11/21/steve-moxon-women-business_n_2170854.html

He praises Anders Brevik and is against all sorts of womens rights like maternity leave, protection from abuse etc. Scary man.

I think UKIP are very scary dangerous people.

However blame Labour alongside the Tories for their rise. I am a natural Labour voter but have been very badly affected negatively by mass immigration and you just know that they're going to promote it again when they get back in.

They are a potent mix, they can attract Tory voters against they EU and traditional working class Labour voters who are being harmed by mass immigration. Unless Labour takes the blinkers off with regards to how some of these issues are affecting ordinary people and takes a rational approach towards it I truly believe these extremists stand a strong chance of becoming a real political power in this country.

Catlike Tue 30-Apr-13 16:38:31

How has mass immigration affected you Bridget? Genuine question, I am not being snarky.

somebloke123 Tue 30-Apr-13 16:50:17

The thing is it's very easy to find oddball councillors in any party. There is a list of 25 (IIRC) Labour councillors who have been convicted of paedophile crimes. Similarly lists of Tories. I won't include links but they're easy to find. I don't know if there's a list of lib dems but the name Cyril Smith springs to mind.

There's certainly a councillor in Burnley who was elected as a BNP councillor but then switched to Labour while in office. She would be banned from even joining UKIP.

There is a general choice here for all political parties. First, you can thoroughly vet and probe into everyone who wants to stand as a councillor in your party. If you are too zealous in this then you end up with clones spouting the party line (as has happened to a large extent in the Commons). Or, you are much more lax and don't do this. The advantage of this is that you may get a richer political climate through a greater variety, but of course as the other side of this coin you will get a few lunatics as well.

FreudiansSlipper Tue 30-Apr-13 16:55:59

Nigel Farage is trying to distance himself from the BNP apparently they do not allow former BNP members to join UKIP but other far right parties is ok

they have a somewhat charasmatic smooth talking leader (and it pains me to say that) that believes in and leads a party full of nasty bigots a dangerous combination

and now Boris Johnson has joined in with the lets not be to harsh on the geezer worrying

ScrambledSmegs Tue 30-Apr-13 16:56:15

Bless you, flatpack grin. No, I didn't mean that. I'm not a Guardian reader either.

somebloke123 Tue 30-Apr-13 17:03:40

Maybe it's more the Labour Party that should be distancing themselves from the BNP, who like to describe themselves as "the Labour Party your fathers voted for". This is unfair but they tend to pick up support preferentially in Labour voting areas. Last time I looked (long ago admittedly) their manifesto included lots of stuff about more funding for the NHS, improved old age pensions, protectionist trade policies, and encouraging workers' cooperatives. All very old Labour.

UKIP are a small-state libertarian outfit and tend more to attract natural Tories who have become exasperated with Cameron.

thebody Tue 30-Apr-13 17:03:47

Bridgetbidet makes some interesting points.

Extremists of all persuasions flourish when main stream parties plough over or ignore people's concerns. Remember Gordon browns ridiculous apologies about racist accusations to that voter on the election trail?

These are dangerous people and dangerous times. They arnt funny or silly. People will vote for them.

flatpackhamster Tue 30-Apr-13 17:35:54

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

JakeBullet Tue 30-Apr-13 17:44:15

Do you agree with this bloke then flatpack <curious> ?

JakeBullet Tue 30-Apr-13 17:45:42

<also not a Guardian reader>

Sorry if that disappoints you...but I am not and never have been "a Guardian reader".

flatpackhamster Tue 30-Apr-13 17:48:57

JakeBullet

Do you agree with this bloke then flatpack <curious> ?

All the bad, evil things that everyone says, I definitely agree with them. Especially the bit about murdering children and eating them.

Of course I fucking don't. Curious my arse.

Tiggygirl Tue 30-Apr-13 17:56:01

Good god who are these vile people who make up the UkIP?? I live in sussex and remarkably they are very well supported ( judging by the huge billboards being erected everywhere ) Scary to think that so many people agree with such rubbish views .

thebody Tue 30-Apr-13 17:58:16

That's just it tiggy. People will vote for who they think will represent them.

Lots if people don't feel the main parties are listening to them.

Vile man.

JakeBullet Tue 30-Apr-13 18:02:31

Pleased to hear it....yeah I was curious as your post was odd to say the least based upon the news article. I'm amazed you didn't say so up front instead of ranting on about middle class and left wing Guardian readers hmm.

NicholasTeakozy Tue 30-Apr-13 18:28:37

So UKIP is racism for posh people Somebloke?

AThingInYourLife Tue 30-Apr-13 18:34:44

"It's not a gigantic leap from that to killing people who are disabled after birth, is it?"

It's pretty gigantic.

The argument that abortion is "not a giant leap from" murder is not one I accept.

Compulsory abortion is monstrous in all situations.

Latara Tue 30-Apr-13 18:42:34

I don't like the UKIP, and i do read the Guardian (online) i admit it...

NotForProfit Tue 30-Apr-13 18:44:28

after everything Geoffery Clarke has said, UKIP still think he would make an "excellent councillor". That, imho, is the most shocking thing about the whole article.

flatpackhamster Tue 30-Apr-13 18:47:05

JakeBullet

Pleased to hear it....yeah I was curious as your post was odd to say the least based upon the news article. I'm amazed you didn't say so up front instead of ranting on about middle class and left wing Guardian readers hmm.

Amazing, really, that I didn't rush to jump in to the Mumsnet Circlejerk. Maybe I'm just tired of the way that every three days some boring twit who thinks she's being original posts a story about 'Evul Tories' or 'Evul Gorje Osbrone' or 'Evul David Cameron stealing our benefits' or, at the moment 'Evul UKIP racialists'. And then the same crowd leap on the boring bandwagon, all furiously condemning whatever it was they read in some left-wing rag, and feeling all smug and superior because they'd never do anything awful, they're just lovely in every measurable way.

Also, just <curious>, but do you also beat your husband and is that OK? Since we're casting random offensive aspersions on people's points of view, thought I'd muck in with the gals! grin

flatpackhamster Tue 30-Apr-13 18:48:59

NicholasTeakozy

So UKIP is racism for posh people Somebloke?

If that's the case why are the majority of UKIP's supporters C2 working and lower middle class? Didn't they get the memo that it was only racism for posh people?

That also makes me wonder - these UKIP voters who are bad racialists and bigots - what were they when they were Labour voters? Were they racialists and bigots then, but just hid it secretly really well? hmm

Latara Tue 30-Apr-13 18:55:48

I've met bigoted people who support the left, middle and right wing political parties flatpack - i don't think any party has a monopoly on bigots, some people just are more savvy at hiding their real feelings it seems.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Tue 30-Apr-13 19:10:40

Thing is, UKIP are basically a single-issue party, aren't they. They're anti-EU and anti-immigration; such other policies as they have are broadly Conservative.

If your whole raison d'etre is opposing foreign stuff in general, it's going to take some very careful finessing not to come across as racist. This is not helped if your party turns out to be very attractive to candidates and voters with racist views.

(Wouldn't a truly libertarian party feel it wasn't the state's place to set the rules of marriage? Did we already do that one?)

hopipolla Tue 30-Apr-13 19:11:21

YABVU I don't like them but ideologically UKIP are nowhere near the BNP

JulieMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Apr-13 19:13:18

Can we just remind you of our lovely Talk guidelines

Viviennemary Tue 30-Apr-13 19:15:29

I read that the major parties are getting extremely worried about UKIP. Hence the smear campaign. I don't agree with some of their policies but don't know that much about them.

navada Tue 30-Apr-13 19:23:26

Nigel Farage is often described as 'charismatic'.

So a step up from Nick Griffin grin

finickypinickity Tue 30-Apr-13 19:28:04

I've just watched the local news and was shocked to see the UKIP chap in the photo who is accused of making the hand gesture was apparently reaching for a phone and the other pic is of him dressed as a pirate for a fancy dress party with the sword in his mouth. BBC main news must have missed that bit of the story unless i didnt see that parthmm

Now i have no idea which story is right but the bottom line is both versions of events are very plausible. UKIP have had a massive presence locally in Somerset which is a totally Tory area and they are definitely worried about the local election vote especially as we have so many old people here and quite a high turnout to vote.

We are becoming like America with their dirty smear campaigns and like a previous poster put up if you look at the convicted paedophiles who have served in both Tory and Labour parties its shocking. Dig deep enough and all of the main parties have grim candidates.

catgirl1976 Tue 30-Apr-13 19:37:50

I don't like UKIP

I read the Guardian

I feel superior to Nigel Farage. But then I think my cat is superior to Nigel Farage

<wanders off to eat some organic houmous and generally be a sterotype>

JakeBullet Tue 30-Apr-13 19:40:23

He's an ex H but could perhaps do with some beating grin .

Think that might be a qualified "yes".

It's more accurate to say that Nigel Farage is Middle England's Mr. Bean. It is his appearance, plus the cheery yet tortured smile he constantly wears. As for the rest of them - UKIP would be nowhere without Farage so there's no point paying much attention to them (or voting for them).

The truth is that UKIP are a small party, and will take just about anyone they can get to put up as candidates. This means they will certainly put up a significantly higher proportion of cranks, bigots and general wierdos than the three main parties. I reckon anyone considering a UKIP vote ought to get down to the hustings and ask a few questions.

AngiBolen Tue 30-Apr-13 19:44:24

Compulsory abortion?

What kind of "politician" who even think of putting these two words together?

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 30-Apr-13 19:50:50

Seriously reminds me of fact that in Nazi Germany my daughter would have been taken away from me and killed for the same reasons.

Very scary and depressing.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Tue 30-Apr-13 19:52:01

I have lurked and posted on a lot of UKIP threads since the Nigel Farrage web chat that he begged and cried for a few years back and it always seems to end up with men people who are not regulars bringing up the same old tired tropes:

- Guardian readers
- People Who Live in North London
- Environmentalists (and their likely meretriciousness)
- Mumsnet Cabals
- Wild and interesting claims with no reference or source to back them up. How many Labour & Tory MPs are convicted Paedophiles? I would be genuinely interested to know.

WRT the OP. YANBU.

MrsDeVere Tue 30-Apr-13 19:58:00

Have we done Brewer yet?

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/02/27/cornwall-councillor-colin-brewer-disabled-children-put-down_n_2771826.html

He is still standing for election despite his comments and beliefs.

I am beginning to see a theme..

finickypinickity Tue 30-Apr-13 19:58:38
madamimadam Tue 30-Apr-13 20:05:03

Tondo I remember that webchat. Didn't we get invaded by a lot of 'new MNers' who subsequently turned out to be UKIP activists, all agitated by the Guardianistas?

Didn't someone turn up the UKIP manifesto bit about women staying in the home so men could have full employment (I'm paraphrasing & I'm sure a UKIPer will be along in a minute to tell me otherwise but it all sounded v erm Aryan.)

And then there was that lovely man Geoffrey Bloom, who recently said leading the party was like 'herding cats'. He's got form too, hasn't he? Quite a few unsavoury types were mentioned on that web chat.

For a party that 'aren't racist' they are very unlucky aren't they?

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Tue 30-Apr-13 20:10:59

Yes, madamimadam there were a lot of new members that day, who had no children and never posted on any other thread. Sad, as their views were interesting to say the least.

madamimadam Tue 30-Apr-13 20:17:19

Didn't one turn out to be a NRA-supporter from the US? And another one was on of their councillors? Gawain something?( I remember expecting the Green Knight to pop up any moment, claiming to have posted on AIBU...)All pretending to be longstanding MNers.

And then they got unmasked as Men of a Certain Age With Interesting Views. grin It was like something from Little Britain, wasn't it?

Mumsyblouse Tue 30-Apr-13 20:21:55

Although something like 90% of foeutuses who are diagnosed with Down's Syndrome are aborted anyway, so much as I abhor this man and his views, it's actually a debate society needs to have.

Can I just say that this number refers to the amount of people who, having had a positive Downs test with an amnio or chorionic villus sampling, then go ahead and have an abortion. But only a tiny number of people are even offered an amnio, and most of those who wouldn't go ahead with an abortion wouldn't have an amnio (entirely self-selecting group, not many people would go to all the trouble and risk of having an amnio just for information purposes although obviously 10% do decide against abortion in the end).

But about 35/40% (really hard to get figures as they are not counted) do not go for even a screening scan/nuchal test/triple test, because they don't want to know, let alone an amnio. And most people aren't high risk so don't get offered amnio. So, although it is true technically that 90% of those who had the diagnosis went on to have an abortion, this is a very select group who were perhaps more active than the general population in not wanting to have a child with Downs syndrome (although it could be an incidental finding as well.) And with better information and counselling, in some American clinics, the % has fallen to about 65% even of those who sought amnio.

Catlike Tue 30-Apr-13 20:40:00

I've met bigoted people who support the left, middle and right wing political parties flatpack - i don't think any party has a monopoly on bigots, some people just are more savvy at hiding their real feelings it seems.

I think that, sadly, being racist and xenophobic to at least some degree is part of human nature.. It seems to be present worldwide and has a very long history in Europe especially.

Catlike Tue 30-Apr-13 20:45:28

I'm amazed you didn't say so up front instead of ranting on about middle class and left wing Guardian readers.

Ranting about the Guardian, middle classes, lefties, north london, betrayal of the white working class hmm etc is a classic right wing kneejerk response and it's an attempt to shut down the debate. Because, of course, if you do happen to be middle class or read the Guardian etc then your opinion is worthless.

thermalsinapril Tue 30-Apr-13 20:45:43

I am pro-choice, and this definitely means choice either way, not compelling any woman to do something she doesn't want with her own body.

No human being is a "burden".

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Tue 30-Apr-13 20:56:59

Ranting about the Daily Mail , Sun readers,thickos, betrayal of the liberal concensus etc is a classic left wing kneejerk response and it's an attempt to shut down the debate.

Fixed that for you, Catlike grin

StealthOfficialCrispTester Tue 30-Apr-13 21:02:04

So he wants to kill children with disabilities and he wants to force women, presumably lots kicking and screaming, into a medical procedure against their consent.
What a vile excuse for a human

Bridgetbidet Tue 30-Apr-13 21:12:05

Catlike my husband works in construction and his wages literally halved overnight when the new EU states joined. And he wasn't well very well paid anyway. Construction firms don't invest in training people anymore either, they just import people. There are jobs that used to be well paid because they were dirty and unpleasant which are minimum wage now.

I am concerned by the conditions that some people working in the construction industry (often on minimum wage) from abroad live in. There are Indian's on my husband's site who don't even have their own bed but pay for shifts in one, travel 4 hours each way work and simply sleep and work. I think it's dragging down the standard of living for everybody else when people will accept jobs for wages that only allow this standard of living.

There are all the normal things like pressure on housing, public services and jobs.

I live in a northern town where racial integration between incomers from certain parts of the asian subcontinent is virtually non-existent on both sides.

I can certainly see some of the positives and don't think that the immigration that we've had over the last 15 years has been totally negative, certainly with regards to the NHS etc. But I don't think it is sustainable to carry on with immigration at the levels we saw under the last Labour government. There are just questions about housing, public services, jobs etc that just haven't been answered.

I would like to see more focused and positive immigration at a lower level, concentrating more on highly skilled migrant, rather than the willy nilly immigration we were used to.

pointythings Tue 30-Apr-13 21:15:27

I listened to Nigel Farage on Today this morning and lo and behold, he spouted the tired old trope about how 29 million Romanians and Bulgarians (i.e. the combined total population of both countries) were just waiting to flood the UK once the rules on them working in the EU were relaxed.

I'm sure Farage is no fool, which means that he was being deliberately inflammatory and ignoring the evidence. I actually don't think he cares about these people who are representing his party, I think he's just worried that too many of them are being caught out. (Which doesn't mean that I believe there are no mainstream councillors with similar views, they're IMO just better at not being caught. <cynical>)

Fact remains that as an Eastern European myself (broadly, Holland is East of the UK after all) I feel more unwelcome after almost 16 years here than I have ever done. This despite the fact that I have never claimed benefits or offered to do a job for less than a local recruit. UKIP plays into a mean Little Englander spirit that I'd really hoped had gone away.

flatpackhamster Tue 30-Apr-13 21:16:22

Catlike

Ranting about the Guardian, middle classes, lefties, north london, betrayal of the white working class hmm etc is a classic right wing kneejerk response and it's an attempt to shut down the debate.

Did I just read that correctly? You're claiming victimhood after the Guardian has spent the better part of 15 years calling anyone who objected to mass immigration a racist, anyone who objected to gay marriage a bigot and anyone who raised concerns around the science of global warming a 'denier'?

Because, of course, if you do happen to be middle class or read the Guardian etc then your opinion is worthless.

Not at all, being middle class doesn't make anyone's opinion worthless.

Catlike Tue 30-Apr-13 21:33:17

No flatpackhamster, you did not read my post correctly if you think I am "claiming victimhood". (as you well know)

I stated a fact, which is that it's a very common tactic on threads like this for right wing forum members to try to shut down debate by ranting about middle class, lefty Guardian readers smile

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Tue 30-Apr-13 21:43:35

What if you're a Guardian reading, north London leftie who is also 'indigenous' white working class. There are quite a few of us you know. smile

Bridgetbidet Tue 30-Apr-13 21:45:38

I want to know how the fuck you manage to live in North London?

Bridgetbidet Tue 30-Apr-13 21:45:55

I mean, how do you afford it, do you have a family?

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Tue 30-Apr-13 21:56:06

Is that a serious question? If so it's bizarre.

Bridgetbidet Tue 30-Apr-13 22:05:01

Possibly, yes, it just kind of blurted out. But I moved away from North East London to to the north because I found it was simply no longer in any way affordable for genuinely working class people anymore. But in all honestly I probably shouldn't have asked because it's not really relevant to the thread so ignore me.

Dawndonna Tue 30-Apr-13 22:07:32

I take the Guardian. I don't state that concern regarding global warming is being a denier. I don't have a problem with a sensible rational discussion on immigration, either.
I do have a problem with Farage, who is just trying to stir things up. He doesn't want a sensible discussion on immigration, he wants to play on peoples prejudices and fears. I have a problem with UKIP wanting to privatise parts of the NHS and a really serious problem with 'congregate communities for the learning disabled'.

AngiBolen Tue 30-Apr-13 22:18:52

I don't think it's a bizarre question. I live in the midlands, and on £40K with three DC in a 3 bed semi, I can hardly afford to buy the Guardian, let alone organic humus.

AngiBolen Tue 30-Apr-13 22:19:45

So I imagine to live in NL you need to earn................. a lot.

Bridgetbidet Tue 30-Apr-13 22:29:50

This was what I thought but was too polite to say.

Bridgetbidet Tue 30-Apr-13 22:32:36

Catlike Anyway, regarding your comment that:

<Because, of course, if you do happen to be middle class or read the Guardian etc then your opinion is worthless.>

Sorry, but Guardian readers do <constantly> tell the working class that their opinion is worthless, normally with some charts and graphs that tell them they have not been badly affected by immigration when what they see when they open their wage packet or look at their rent book tells them different.

Bridgetbidet Tue 30-Apr-13 22:35:09

I have just been really shit at using italics.

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Tue 30-Apr-13 22:43:23

I stated a fact, which is that it's a very common tactic on threads like this for right wing forum members to try to shut down debate by ranting about middle class, lefty Guardian readers

Just as it is a common tactic for left wing forum members to try to shut down debate by ranting about Daily Mail reading Nazis?grin

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Tue 30-Apr-13 22:43:37

Luckily for you AngiBolen The Guardian online is free and has plenty of information about poverty and income disparity in London.

Also Green Lanes has loads of places to buy cheap hummus.

In many boroughs in London an income of £40k would place you in the top half of earners.

My point was that UKIP (and many right wingers) are very fond of stereotyping 'lefties' as out of touch with 'real' 'white working class' people and are so fond of that 'Hampstead Dinner Party' stereotype that was tired in the 80s. How in touch is stockbroker's son and Dulwich college alumnus Nigel Farage with the concerns of the average resident of a council estate off Holloway Road?

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Tue 30-Apr-13 22:46:54

Bridget,

Guardian readers don't give a shiny shite about the working classes.
( In this country)

In Brazil, maybe. In Mexico-possibly. In India-definitely.

In Britain - they are embarassed by them.

NicholasTeakozy Tue 30-Apr-13 22:50:52

what were they when they were Labour voters?

Probably racist New Labour voters. So people who align themselves with the right but considered themselves too intelligent to vote for the BNP.

Don't forget Flatpack, the current Labour party has the same neoliberal policies you love so much. So if they get in absolutely nothing will change. The people need to start a party of their own.

Bridgetbidet Tue 30-Apr-13 22:54:30

So 40k would put you in the top half of earners in London boroughs when about £26k would do it in the rest of the country? As Angie says, you have to be quite wealthy to live there.

I agree with you about Nigel Farage. I think that UKIP would be terrible for your average working class voter if they got in. I think that they would be very much in favour of the type of economy where the majority of people had lower standards of living and were poorer for the sake of 'business' and yet they would help a small group of the elite wealthy prosper even more. It would be a disaster for the working classes if they got in.

However the original issue was that they do appeal to working class voters who are concerned about the impact immigration is having on them, even if only as a protest vote. And the denial of the leftwing of these concerns is a very real problem. Farage may be out of touch but on this one issue he has his finger very much on the pulse and 'lefties' aren't really dealing with the concerns of white working class people.

KenDoddsDadsDog Tue 30-Apr-13 22:56:47

UKIP are all over Shields at the moment with the by election for Miliband's seat. They have rented out a shop , the purple and yellow fuckers give me migraine every time I pop for a sandwich.
Really not very bright of then to stop my Yemeni/English colleague to tell her they didn't agree with immigrants. It was quite a spectacular put down by all accounts .

Bridgetbidet Tue 30-Apr-13 22:57:09

Thingsthatmakeyou I sadly have to say I think this is true. My Grandad was a union man who used to print the Manchester Guardian.

He would turn in his grave if he could see the £4,000 dresses and £20,000 sofas they promote now, it, and the Labour party, are now for the educated middle class.

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Tue 30-Apr-13 22:57:37

As I said Bridget, the overwhelming emotion the left feels for the white working classes is..............contempt.

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Tue 30-Apr-13 23:01:21

But don't worry -Polly Toynbee feels our pain.

From her naice villa in Tuscany. wink

Dawndonna Wed 01-May-13 05:28:20

This is ridiculous, it's neither a discussion about immigration nor UKIP. Yet again, it's turned into let's slag off Guardian Readers.
The only benefit I get is Carer's Allowance. It doesn't mean I don't care about the benefits cap, despite the fact that it doesn't affect me. I own my property, I care about the impact of 'bedroom tax'. So, because Polly Toynbee has a decent income and possibly a holiday home, that negates her right to care, does it? Ridiculous.
hmm

Lazyjaney Wed 01-May-13 06:49:09

Neither the Guardianistas nor Torygraph readers, and whatever the LibDems read, nor the parties they support, represent the Working class and their concerns. None of these groups has been hit by the impacts of immigration, globalisation, etc etc, and neither is there any sign of them doing very much about it, they all seem caught in their own dogmas.

Which is why UKIP exists and will carry on growing, no matter how much middle classers sniff at it.

I don't like UKIP but nothing I see from the others tell me they are dealing with the issues it is leveraging.

HollyBerryBush Wed 01-May-13 07:04:16

Let me be quite blunt, as right wing as some of my politics are, UKIP no matter what flavour it dresses up as this week, is not my particular brand of politics.

So that established, there are a growing band of people, probably around my age , late 40's, for whom UKIP, BNP, EDL are an attractive party. These people have major issues with seeing their children struggling for jobs, they themselves are under cut on building sites, as plumbers and focus on immigration as the sole cause of that.

We all know that's not entirely correct, but you try persuading the man in the street who is trying to keep a roof over his familys head that the reason he hasn't got a new contract/job isn't because the Poles (or whomsoever) are under cutting rates. I do listen to these sort of rants from DHs mates in the building trade and I empathise that obtaining work is difficult

I know we've touched on this before, but the round up at the end of Crimewatch doesn't really help inclusion either, when 80% of mug shots are Asian or East European.

Mass immigration is a problem. For a variety of reasons. Plucking one out of the air - housing - again, thread after thread on here about HB and rental prices etc - you open up the borders and allow x thousand people to come in, it is going to drive up demand.

So it is an issue that needs addressing. What the government needs to do is make the UK look less attractive to unqualified migrants.

JakeBullet Wed 01-May-13 07:26:44

I don't read the fuckng Guardian, what has that got to do with a tosser who thinks women should submit to a compulsory procedure anyway? If disagreeing with the likes of him makes me a leftie Guardian reading sheep that then so be it....I'll take out a subscription tomorrow, anything but align myself with someone like that.

All the while UKIP members make statements like this AND ARE DEFENDED when it is raised with the party grandees I will shout out against them. Everyone should be doing the same, Guardian reader or not.

Lazyjaney Wed 01-May-13 07:30:27

"So, because Polly Toynbee has a decent income and possibly a holiday home, that negates her right to care, does it? Ridiculous"

She has become a parody of herself IMO, she and her comfortable generation of champagne socialists have more in common with Tory and Libdem chatterati and haven't a clue about what working class life looks like today.

blackcats73 Wed 01-May-13 07:31:55

Well said Jake.

Dawndonna Wed 01-May-13 07:35:21

Well said, Jake

Lazy It doesn't matter whether or not they have a clue, the fact is that they still want fair play for all.

Lazyjaney Wed 01-May-13 07:37:25

"I don't read the fuckng Guardian, what has that got to do with a tosser who thinks women should submit to a compulsory procedure anyway? If disagreeing with the likes of him makes me a leftie Guardian reading sheep that then so be it....I'll take out a subscription tomorrow, anything but align myself with someone like that"

You are missing the point about UKIPs attraction, it is promising the very hard pressed less skilled working class in the UK some respite from the impacts of immigration and globalisation, and that impacts them far more than the fate of a few unborn foetusses.

navada Wed 01-May-13 07:41:33

Spot on Hollyberrybush.

And just to add - very few 'real' white working class people support Labour anymore.

JakeBullet Wed 01-May-13 07:43:47

I am sure that IS their attraction lazyjayne. However, many of those hard pressed workers might well be mortified if they read statements such as this. It's not just the middle classes who find such views abhorrent...forcible and compulsory medical procedures against someone's will. No matter what appeal they have, this is disgusting....,and the party defended him too.

blackcats73 Wed 01-May-13 07:50:42

I have to go to work now but navada if n no working class people vote Labour, how come they win seats in Sunderland, hartepool, Middlesbrough etc?

Jesus, lazyy do you have such contempt for the working class voters that you think they'd agree with forcing women to have abortions and all of the other misogynist creep they agree with?

flatpackhamster Wed 01-May-13 08:34:05

HollyBerryBush

I know we've touched on this before, but the round up at the end of Crimewatch doesn't really help inclusion either, when 80% of mug shots are Asian or East European.

Perhaps then we ought to bring in quotas for mugshots?

JakeBullet

I am sure that IS their attraction lazyjayne. However, many of those hard pressed workers might well be mortified if they read statements such as this. It's not just the middle classes who find such views abhorrent...forcible and compulsory medical procedures against someone's will. No matter what appeal they have, this is disgusting....,and the party defended him too.

Except that they didn't, as you can see from the BBC News report. They said he wouldn't be standing as a UKIP candidate if he won, they said they didn't know about his views when they offered him the chance to stand for them, and they apologised to anyone who was upset by his statements. He couldn't be removed from the ballot paper, of course, because it was too late.

Isn't it <curious> that you surface with this 5-month-old story just before the local council elections?

Lovecat Wed 01-May-13 08:39:22

I'm white working class (although married to a MC home counties bloke - who reads the Telegraph) living in East London.

UKIP disgust me, as do the BNP (who won council elections down the road from me in Barking and proceeded to do precisely fuck all apart from claim expenses so were chucked out on their sorry arses next time around). Same ugly view of women, minorities and immigrants, just different economic policies, as far as I can see.

Stereotypes benefit no-one.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 01-May-13 08:46:05

Yes..some people are being rather patronising about the working class IMO.

It's interesting that the ukip are only doing well in particular parts of the country. There is absolutely no visible support for them up here in the north-east. Maybe that's because most of the decent jobs up here went decades ago, so there's little point grumbling about immigrants. There's also the fact that the London government clearly doesn't give a shit about this part of the country, so the whole 'governed from Brussels' argument doesn't really resonate.

I don't see how ukip can offer anyone any respite from the pressures of globalisation, no matter how much they would want to pretend they can. Opting out of Europe won't make any difference to the structural issues in the global economy that mean jobs get moved abroad.

Catlike Wed 01-May-13 09:37:05

She has become a parody of herself IMO, she and her comfortable generation of champagne socialists have more in common with Tory and Libdem chatterati and haven't a clue about what working class life looks like today.

What utter bollocks. Polly Toynbee is one of the only journalists in this country who regularly stands up for the working poor see this article on the difficulties of making ends meet on the minimum wage for example and here's another one about the damage being done to the working poor by cuts to tax credits. Oh and here's another about how difficult life is for working families on low incomes.

She is also one of the few national journalists to have attacked the privatisation of the NHS and to have explained what the NHS bill actually meant. She frequently calls for fairer taxation, ie the rich actually paying their share.

But none of this matters because she is middle class and has a holiday home hmm That instantly invalidates her research, opinions and writing.

Madamimadam Wed 01-May-13 09:51:34

I live in the South. We have a huge problem here with schools, public services & house prices. There's been an exodus of people, priced out of London, moving here. There's been no investment in the local infrastructure to match, so local schools are massively oversubscribed etc. That's not down to immigration. That's the result of our fucked-up housing market.

As for low wages, we have unemployed people doing work (that previously used to be paid) for companies like Tesco. Most people who claim housing benefit are in work - wages have been driven so low, taxpayers are in effect subsiding these companies. This isn't down to immigration either, it's down to governments letting industries like banking, the supermarket run wild.

UKIP have no solutions to these problems that stand up to any kind of analysis. And for supposed anti-Europeans, they certainly seem more than happy to claim eyewatering expenses from the EU hmm

NishiNoUsagi Wed 01-May-13 10:18:31

<goes crossed eyed at the guardian/left wing/right wing debate, bacjks away from it nervously>

Anyway, I live in a small but naice town in the South-East-ish. We have a lack of housing, not great amenities although they are improving, and a pretty large Eastern European population, with a lot of other nationalities mixed in. Basically somewhere where people might be likely to blame immigration for lack of housing/nursery places and other such shite.

Opinion poll showed UKIP raking in a massive 0% of the vote grin
Faith in humanity slightly restored!

Regarding this idea that mainstream politicians are "out of touch":

The real problem is that political parties are no longer mass movements:

Conservative: 1951: 2.9 million members 2010: 180,000
Labour: 1975: 700,000 (excluding affiliate members), 2010: 200,000
Liberals: 1975: 200,000, now 45,000.

Only a generation ago, the average member of a political party was just an average person: not a political anorak, not a powermonger, a millionaire or a career politician. Modern politicians find it harder to stay 'in touch' because normal people no longer choose to involve themselves in mainstream politics. That is not the fault of politicians.

The only party worth the name (ie, capable of government) to emerge since 1945 is the SNP.

The Lib Dems' party membership is now less than the average attendance at a major football ground on a Saturday, despite their membership fees probably being a bit less than the gate price for a single match.

Unfortunately, it is now normal for people dissatisfied with the government to to moan a bit, perhaps not vote, or perhaps vote for a fringe party. It has become abnormal to do the more obvious thing, namely, pay the modest subscription, join one of the major parties and, time permitting, involve onesself in organisation, policy debates or stand for election at local or national level. Joining a political party has become seen as something akin to joining a cult. Because of this, and the decline in membership, parties can no longer fund themselves through fees, they raise money in all sorts of nefarious ways, just to keep the fires burning.

If you don't like what the government is doing, join a proper political party. Don't vote for fringe loonies.

navada Wed 01-May-13 10:30:32

* A pretty large Eastern European population, with a lot of other nationalities mixed in *

Eh, maybe that's why UKIP aren't too popular in your Town grin

It's the areas that don't want to be like your Town where UKIP will thrive.

NishiNoUsagi Wed 01-May-13 10:50:55

Well, obviously they're not going to vote for UKIP, unless they're really radical navada grin

Could go either way couldn't it, towns that don't want to be like ours may vote more, or towns that are already like ours could vote more as they can (wrongly of course) see more of a negative impact of immigration. (Even though there isn't actually a negative impact in our town, unless you're a daily fail believer of course.)

Having said that, the leaflet UKIP put through my door was so riddled with bad English ("imigrants" "they're" for "their", weird apostrophes) that maybe no-one round here is voting for them because we're all snobs and grammar nazis grin

MrsDeVere Wed 01-May-13 10:54:32

oh I see some posters are speaking on my behalf yet again.
On these threads the 'if you were white working class living in a place actually affected by mass immigration you wouldn't be so liberal' always

Usually trotted out by someone who isn't working class and lives somewhere unaffected by immigration and who wouldn't want their kids sharing a classroom with mine hmm

Stop talking for me. I am 'real' (WTF does that mean?) white working class. No, not working class in that my grandad once worked for the council, I mean proper, working class for generations and proud of it.

I would never vote for the BNP or UKIP or the Tories. I do vote Labour although I agree that they are not the Labour I want them to be.

But my main point is.. the 'real' white working classes are not a bunch of sun reading xenophobes and lots of us can read books and speak in whole sentences.

Being intelligent and doing things YOU think are the preserve of the MCs does not make me aspirational and 'unreal'.

A bit of pregnancy yoga does not a chatterarti make.

gordyslovesheep Wed 01-May-13 11:00:58

Bloody well said Mrs DV x I agree

navada Wed 01-May-13 11:01:26

Haha - to be honest I don't take much notice of politics anymore. I vote in all the main elections & try to keep up with major issues, but that's about it. The only thing I have noticed is we've become a much more divided society, the left & right seem a lot more polarised - but maybe it's always been that way? I don't know. I just come on Mumsnet to chat about crap TV shows grin

navada Wed 01-May-13 11:02:41

My last post was in reply to nishi.

Dawndonna Wed 01-May-13 11:03:28

Mrs D V I think I luffs you! grin

ComposHat Wed 01-May-13 12:18:24

Well said Mrs DeVere

JakeBullet Wed 01-May-13 13:04:10

Not curious no flatpack....it came up on my Facebook feed and annoyed me....as it would any mother with disabled child. I couldn't give a flying fuck about the local elections just as long as UKIP don't win locally (which they won't).

Why are YOU defending them?

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Wed 01-May-13 14:35:51

" Yet again, it's turned into let's slag off Guardian Readers. "

You have got to be shitting me , right.grin

The only,only sorts of people who regularly get a slagging on MN are Daily Mail readers.

Although links and references to the Mail Online do seem to turn up on here a fair bit...... wink

Dawndonna Wed 01-May-13 14:38:45

No. Everytime there's a benefit bashing thread or a UKIP thread there are a significant number of posters going on about middle class guardianistas.
So no, not shitting you.

blackcats73 Wed 01-May-13 16:26:02

Well said Mrs De vere, I'm from white working class family in the north east of England. No one from my family would dream of voting for ukip. Ukip believe in horrible divisive policies which appeal to unpleasant and selfish individuals a variety of backgrounds.

And yes they all vote labour. Some working class people still do.

blackcats73 Wed 01-May-13 16:27:59

Not a very coherent post above, travelling on bus, sorry

flatpackhamster Wed 01-May-13 16:53:06

JakeBullet

Not curious no flatpack....it came up on my Facebook feed and annoyed me....as it would any mother with disabled child. I couldn't give a flying fuck about the local elections just as long as UKIP don't win locally (which they won't).

Why are YOU defending them?

Because I agree with some of their policies (such as leaving the EU, grammar schools, less stuff down at a central government level and far more at a local level, nuclear power to name a few), and because you were incorrect in claiming that UKIP had supported Geoffrey Clark when they hadn't, and that error needed correcting - lest you gave a false impression, and I'm sure you wouldn't have intended that.

What's been so remarkable watching this outburst of rage, which has been mirrored by the political class over the last few days, is what an utter failure it has been. UKIP's poll ratings have risen. People don't care that a few UKIP council candidates have views that the pearl-clutchers in Islington object to. And they don't like to see the establishment ganging up on the little guy. Remember UKIP's poll ratings really kicked off after the case last year when that council decided a couple were unsuitable for fostering due to their political views - they were members of UKIP.

I think they're good for politics, and I think we're very fortunate to have a political party which is outside the mainstream and which can remind our political class that they aren't representing a swathe of the country.

Catlike Wed 01-May-13 16:58:13

People don't care that a few UKIP council candidates have views that the pearl-clutchers in Islington object to

So you have to be an Islington pearl clutcher, whatever the fuck that is, to object to what is essentially eugenics? Jesus Christ.

Cookiewise Wed 01-May-13 17:03:00

One thing I don't understand is why when the UKIP say something anti-Semitic, they are a bunch of nazis, but when a Labour politician or someone from the Respect Party says it, nobody bats an eyelid or excuses them. As a Jew I find it worrying that any major party has candidates or politicians who spout this kind of crap.

slug Wed 01-May-13 17:03:45

Interesting insult 'political class' What is it and how can I join?

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Wed 01-May-13 17:22:37

See, although I am what might be called "of the right" I dislike UKIP. Putting to one side,for a moment, what individual candidates may/may not have posted on social media,at some point in the past, I think the bigger picture bears examination. The left is losing ground,fast,at the moment.On benefits reform,on immigration,on cultural integration. Lazy caricaturing of UKIP supporters as racists,bigots etc is not doing the left any favours.

The liberal,metropolitan worldview is becoming discredited. This may,or may not,turn out to be a good thing.

The cat, for instance, was well and truly let out of the bag when Gordon Brown made his "awful old bigot" remark re the older lady who had buttonholed him about immigration on the election trail. Did he believe the sentiment behind his remark? You would have thought so. Would many on the left, perhaps even on MN, have agreed with him? Again,very possibly.

Why then, instead of standing by his remark, did he instantly engage reverse at 1000mph ?

Clearly, he knew that the revelation of his real opinion of working class concerns would be electoral poison. Which it turned out to be.

Unless the left discovers some way of engaging with the concerns,genuine concerns, of ordinary working people, I fear they are doomed to a long period in the wilderness. And as someone of the right, this fills me with concern.

Dawndonna Wed 01-May-13 17:36:44

People don't care that a few UKIP council candidates have views that the pearl-clutchers in Islington object to
Not in Islington. Don't own Pearls. Vehemently object to Marie Stopes type policies and have absolutely no comprehension why anyone would want to put my extraordinarily intelligent children into a 'congregate community'.
Leaving the EU doesn't mean we will save 120bn a year. We don't contribute that much to the EU.
Scrapping the Human Rights Act is not a terribly good idea, either, but UKIP would have you believe it only benefits the criminal and never the victim. Of course it benefits us all.
Why boost the military budget? We don't need to and it's not currently economically viable to do so.
With most of the proposals we'd be even more skint in ten minutes.
And as for scrapping political correctness in public affairs, that just means Farage and his ilk can say what they like, when they like without fear of repurcussions. It's outrageous.

HollyBerryBush Wed 01-May-13 17:52:03

I couldn't give a flying fuck about the local elections just as long as UKIP don't win locally (which they won't).

Don't be so sure - the BNP are the voice of disaffection - of course no one ever realistically votes for them in a general election BUT they have their little pockets of followers in some areas and they romp home in council elections. It's vote people are too stupid to care about, your council election probably affects you more then your general election vote.

The next ward to me was 3 votes from BNP last council elections. That is a major cause for concern in a London Borough which has had it's fair share of multi-cultural troubles. Bexley, Welling in particular, where I used to live growing up used to be a nice little town, with normal people until the BNP arrived and opened its bookshop as guise for civil unrest. Not 3 miles away in Greenwich borough, we had the sorry state of affairs over poor Stephen Lawrence. That still kicks off today. Welling sadly is a shit hole, populated by the remaining white folks with some serious multicultural prejudices.

navada Wed 01-May-13 18:08:13

Cookiewise: because UKIP are the whipping boy.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 01-May-13 18:34:05

What Catlike just said.

Cookiewise Wed 01-May-13 18:50:16

HollyBerryBush. I have Jewish relatives who have lived all their lives in the East End. Since before the Respect won their seat there they get so much racist shit thrown at them and it is so much worse now that they now want to leave the area that is their home and that they have lived forever. I don't understand why there is relatively no condemnation for the Respect party when it is just as racist as the BNP just in the other direction (and it is crawling with anti-Semites) yet the left broadly support/condones it with silence. I have yet to see the kind of criticism from papers like the Guardian (bastion of anti-racism?) of this party that they are very good at heaping on the bnp. Why?

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Wed 01-May-13 18:50:41

Well said Mrs Devere - you articulated it far better than I did / could.

MrsDeVere Wed 01-May-13 20:14:52

I make a bloody noise when the Respect Party are anti semetic. Ditto when Ken Livingstone is.

Loony leftie I may be but I wouldn't vote for either of them.

MrsDeVere Wed 01-May-13 20:15:08

Thank you Tondelyo.

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Wed 01-May-13 20:21:43

I wonder why the Guardian are silent on the Respect party...... smile

Catlike Wed 01-May-13 20:31:17

Probably because very few people are interested in the Respect party to begin with and also because it does not pose a threat to any of the major political parties. Unlike UKIP smile

Dawndonna Wed 01-May-13 20:37:52
ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Wed 01-May-13 20:39:20

Interesting that you think that UKIP does pose a threat to the major political parties, Catlike.

Sadly, I agree.

NishiNoUsagi Wed 01-May-13 20:53:57

What's been so remarkable watching this outburst of rage, which has been mirrored by the political class over the last few days, is what an utter failure it has been. UKIP's poll ratings have risen

At the risk of upsetting some UKIP voters grin , most of the people I've spoken to who are determined to vote UKIP had never even heard of the downs syndrome/abortion debate, abolishing maternity leave, disablist policies, inability to fund their own policies etc, and seemed to have no interest in learning anything beyond "hate immigrants, UKIP will get them out." They honestly had no idea. Some were shocked to hear about it, some didn't care. I'm sure that's not the only reason UKIP's poll ratings have risen, but I would be surprised if there wasn't a lot of knee jerk/reactive voting going on there too.

Madamimadam Thu 02-May-13 01:21:09

Well said, Mrs DeVere

I do wonder how much of a threat to the Tories UKIP really are.

Nearby borough local election results (Tory safe seat) the party 4% behind the Tories were - to my immense surprise....

The Greens

UKIP after Labour - and Lib Dems

But we don't hear so much about the Greens, do we?

flatpackhamster Thu 02-May-13 07:33:15

Madamimadam

But we don't hear so much about the Greens, do we?

No, but then they're still hovering around 4% of the vote so they're still in BNP/Respect territory.

JakeBullet Thu 02-May-13 07:38:12

Off to vote for......God only knows who!
I have no faith in any of the feckers.

Lazyjaney Thu 02-May-13 07:50:34

"Jesus, lazyy do you have such contempt for the working class voters that you think they'd agree with forcing women to have abortions and all of the other misogynist creep they agree with?"

Jesus, catlike, do you always totally misread posts to have your little rant? My point, as you clearly missed it spectacularly, is that the UKIPs stance on abortion is a very secondary concern for it's supporters, and UKIP is addressing pressing issues that the main parties seem to be ducking or stuck in dogma

Given that you (finally) admit later upthread that they ARE a major threat, would you care to explain why you think that is so I can misquote you and crap all over you in return so we can see how your views are so much wiser.

fromparistoberlin Thu 02-May-13 08:14:18

I really hope someone does something nasty to him, or he gets a twitter hate campaign that makes him depressed

sorry, but remarks like that put him so low in my estimation I would be pleased if someone attacked him!

sorry, thats not very helpful IN THE SLIGHTEST but I feel very angry and emotional reading that

C BOMB

Cookiewise Thu 02-May-13 08:25:03

Well, I am personally more fearful of the Respect party and their sycophants in East London as there are the ones who have an actual MP (George Galloway) and a large presence in Newham and Tower Hamlets that has driven out a lot of Jews and gays (minorities the left should be supporting but for some reason the Guardian et al have left The Telegraph to do all the investigations into corruption and racism there).

The respect party problem is incredibly localised though. Whereas ukip have quite a big support base in the south east (or at least areas of it). Tbh, I wouldn't even be able to name respect in a list of political parties unless someone reminded me of their existence. I doubt I'm alone in that.

I would vote green, but the buggers never run any candidates in my ward for local elections. Indeed, living here you'd think the lib dems were the only party available, as they are the only ones who do any campaigning at local election time. The overall constituency is a safe labour seat though, so I assume they actually campaign here for general elections.

Catlike Thu 02-May-13 08:44:14

Jesus, catlike, do you always totally misread posts to have your little rant? My point, as you clearly missed it spectacularly, is that the UKIPs stance on abortion is a very secondary concern for it's supporters, and UKIP is addressing pressing issues that the main parties seem to be ducking or stuck in dogma

Given that you (finally) admit later upthread that they ARE a major threat, would you care to explain why you think that is so I can misquote you and crap all over you in return so we can see how your views are so much wiser.

I'm afraid that the only one who is mis-reading is you. And you have just misquoted me.

The post that you quoted and responded to with such aggression was not mine. So please redirect your vitriol and read more carefully in future smile

Dawndonna Thu 02-May-13 08:54:12

Today I shall mostly be voting Green.

Unlikely that I would in a general election, but for County elections I am happy to do so.

Lazyjaney Thu 02-May-13 09:18:03

I apologise Catlike, It was blackcats rant at me I was responding to in kind. You iirc took exception to me reckoning Melanie Phillips is a parody of herself these days.

I didnt even know show had a villa in Chiantishire but if anything, that proves my point even more. If one was going to parody caring champagne socialism, Islington looks positively dowdy compared to rustic Italy

Catlike Thu 02-May-13 09:53:24

I apologise Catlike, It was blackcats rant at me I was responding to in kind. You iirc took exception to me reckoning Melanie Phillips is a parody of herself these days.

Polly Toynbee!!! grin (I would agree with you about Melanie Phillips...)

I have to say that I couldn't care less what her personal circumstances are or even if she doesn't mean a single word that she writes (although I think this extremely unlikely).

As I said in my previous post about her, she's one of the only national journalists who regularly writes about the difficulties faced by the working poor and about other important issues that tend to be glossed over by many sections of the media like the privatisation of the NHS.

I feel that so long as there is somebody out there attempting to give a voice to those who are marginalised and powerless in our society, their own background and possible privilege are irrelevant. It doesn't in any way invalidate their opinions or their research or their work.

Thanks for the apology, by the way smile

printmeanicephoto Thu 02-May-13 09:56:53

If true, man OP mentions is quite clearly a nazi.

LEMisdisappointed Thu 02-May-13 10:00:41

I had a UKIP flyer put through my door the other day, i was tempted to put it up in my window so their representative would call - I'd invite him in for coffee.....................and feed him to my dogs, one less drain on society and i wont have to buy dog food for a while, its politically sound, dontca think?

Dawndonna Thu 02-May-13 10:07:43

LEMis grin

Lazyjaney Thu 02-May-13 10:14:02

I am excelliing myself today :D Note to self: Do not Go on MN and work at same time.....

Mind you, it does make me think - Could Melanie Phillips and Polly Toynbee be one and the same....

Speaking of speaking up for those who feel Marginalised and disempowered, my view is that this is exactly why UKIP are making ground.

flatpackhamster Thu 02-May-13 11:17:42

LEMisdisappointed

I had a UKIP flyer put through my door the other day, i was tempted to put it up in my window so their representative would call - I'd invite him in for coffee.....................and feed him to my dogs, one less drain on society and i wont have to buy dog food for a while, its politically sound, dontca think?

Killing and dismembering someone whose political views you disagree with would show the world that UKIP is the face of evil, fo sho.

Orwellian Thu 02-May-13 11:24:43

grin flatpack. You forgot to mention a goat for hilarious middle class MN giggles.

LEMisdisappointed Thu 02-May-13 11:27:16

flatpacker - please read my post properly - i said nothing at all about dismembering (my dogs can manage a whole one!) wink

flatpackhamster Thu 02-May-13 11:31:01

Oh, that's OK then.

But are you sure they wouldn't taste bad? After all, they're evil and evil isn't yummy. You might give the poor doggies indigestion. Maybe you should be feeding your dogs Lovely Lefties who celebrate diversity and sing and dance together?

LEMisdisappointed Thu 02-May-13 11:37:27

To be fair, i should not be prejudiced about any one party - i will change my poster to "welcome one and all, come and be eaten earn my vote" "Red, green, blue and yellow, all welcome" Thing is, i only have two JRTs I'm going to need a bigger dog

flatpackhamster Thu 02-May-13 11:40:12

You're certainly going to need a bigger freezer.

Lolapink Thu 02-May-13 11:49:30

My husband and I are both disabled, and I am currently pregnant possibly with a child that could have the same disability as myself. I chose to get pregnant knowing this. Reading things like this makes me so angry that people like him actually think like that.

JakeBullet Thu 02-May-13 15:43:21

I am more amused that feeling disgust and distaste for this man's views makes me a middle class and Guardian reading Leftie! Strange.

DeckSwabber Thu 02-May-13 20:19:20

Vile man. Their vetting isn't very thorough, is it?

navada Fri 03-May-13 07:47:37

Well, in the words of Brucie. 'didn't they do well'

bettycocker Fri 03-May-13 07:51:09

The UKIP got the majority in my county. shock

I don't know what will change now, if anything.

KenDoddsDadsDog Fri 03-May-13 09:35:25

Second in Shields. Not surprised at all.

JakeBullet Fri 03-May-13 10:07:06

We are "no change" here. Conservatives won by a mile and tbh our council seem well run so I am not overly worried. The next three parties were Lab, Lib Dem and UKIP....fairly evenly voted for.

Lazyjaney Fri 03-May-13 10:09:22

The electorate are speaking. Pendulum shift I think.

JakeBullet Fri 03-May-13 10:14:32

I think the issue is that they are the only Party offering any opposition....all the rest are so similar.

pickledginger Fri 03-May-13 10:21:32

Was anyone else a fan of the Absolute Power? UKIP always remind me of this.

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