FIL lost it with the kids.. Perspective needed

(221 Posts)
mousemole Sun 28-Apr-13 08:17:42

My head's in a muddle with this one and I'm bloomin angry.
Yesterday we were at the in laws for a family get together. Nice day but FIL gets stressed by our boys aged 7,5 and 2 going within 5 metres a glass/ tea cup/ ornament. He's quite a shouty man and has very limited patience. Anyway, we were about to leave when the two youngest started bickering over a toy. I got up to go and pack our stuff up, left husband sat with the boys, FIL and other family members. I came back into the room 2 minutes later to find FIL dragging the youngest 2 boys by their wrists across the room. They were hysterical and clearly in pain. Apparently he had flipped at their bickering and told them to get out the room. He is a big, strong 6ft 4 man, they are 2 and 4. I shouted 'what the hell is going on ?' at FIL and DH ( who did nothing but that's another story), grabbed the boys and went to the car with them where it took 5 mins to calm them down from their hysteria.
I agree it's their house and their rules but I am livid that he manhandled the kids. AIBU ?

Ingles2 Sun 28-Apr-13 08:23:51

Jeez.. I would be livid with your dh for not stepping in and there's no way on earth the dc would spending any time with the fil either. They're babies, the thought of this scene truly horrifies me

DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper Sun 28-Apr-13 08:24:20

I cannot imagine my father or FIL doing that in a month of Sundays. I cannot imagine why anyone would need to react in that way to a 2 and YO bickering. 2 and 4, FFS!

I would probably limit visits to them on the basis that they are clearly too stressful and unenjoyable for FIL, and you don't want to create a situation that is the cause of that.

Instead, they can visit you if they want to see their grandchildren. And then it's your house; your rules, and your rules categorically include no manhandling of children.

HollyBerryBush Sun 28-Apr-13 08:25:10

What did your DH think?

IvanaCake Sun 28-Apr-13 08:26:01

No Yanbu at all. If fil can't handle having the kids in his house then you dont take them there.

My mum is the same in her house. The list of things my dc aren't allowed to touch is thicker than war and peace (only a slight exaggeration.) It's simpler all round if we just don't go.

I think YANBU.

What was your DH doing? Couldn't he have prevented this happening?

Have there been problems when your children have been round their house before?

mercibucket Sun 28-Apr-13 08:28:44

Why didn't your dh step in? I'd be cross with dh. He should have removed the kids from the room himself if they were that bad, or stopped fil from dragging them by the wrist. You/someone needs to tell fil about the risk of shoulder dislocation in young kids. They could have been picked up one by one and taken out of the room instead if they needed time out. Was their behaviour that bad?

mercibucket Sun 28-Apr-13 08:28:44

Why didn't your dh step in? I'd be cross with dh. He should have removed the kids from the room himself if they were that bad, or stopped fil from dragging them by the wrist. You/someone needs to tell fil about the risk of shoulder dislocation in young kids. They could have been picked up one by one and taken out of the room instead if they needed time out. Was their behaviour that bad?

DontmindifIdo Sun 28-Apr-13 08:29:47

You need to talk to your DH and find out a) why he didn't step in and stop his dad doing that and b) when will he be calling his dad to read him the riot act and say you won't be coming over until you're certain FIL can act in a civilised manner and not manhandle his DCs/leave parenting up to DH and you (also why wasn't DH stepping in to stop the DCs bickering? does he leave that sort of stuff to you?)

I personally would just say no to any further invites until you've had an apology that sounds genunine.

mousemole Sun 28-Apr-13 08:31:05

The fact that DH did feck all is a huge issue in itself, tied up in a childhood of command and control from said FIL and the fact that he is scared of his father sad
My anger is mostly directed at FIL. I would be happy never to see him again.

NumTumDeDum Sun 28-Apr-13 08:31:38

Why didn't dh step in? I agree perhaps visits at your house in future. My dad lives in a show home. Even I get nervous with a cup of tea. Everything is cream or pale yellow and the coffee table black glass and shows every finger mark. I have kittens every time I take my very accident prone dd there. My mum says I was a very nervous and therefore clumsy child because dad would give me a drink and then bark at me 'don 't spill it' and scare the crap out of me so I inevitably spilled. (They're divorced now). If your FIL cannot relax then agree best not to go there.

TeWiSavesTheDay Sun 28-Apr-13 08:32:15

I'd be cross with your DH too. He needs to be the one ringing your FIL to explain why you (as in you and DH) weren't happy and what you (you, DH and FIL) can do next time to resolve whinging together.

Isityouorme Sun 28-Apr-13 08:33:23

My anger would be at your DH for not protecting your children. You can avoid your FIL who was out of order but you can't avoid your DH.

HollyBerryBush Sun 28-Apr-13 08:34:49

Presumably, Dh was brought up with that style of parenting, so he won't see anything wrong with it.

Squabbling childen of that age would frazzle my synapses too I'm afraid. Have three, similarly spaced to the OP, who fought constantly, you learn to not take them where they will piss people off. Fifteen years of constantly pulling them apart. Nip it in the bud now Op, or your children will the ones no one wants round their house en'masse.

DontmindifIdo Sun 28-Apr-13 08:34:58

Mousemole - then you need to talk to your DH - he has to see this is a line being crossed, that you won't have your DCs exposed to that sort of behaviour. so there are two ways to do that, either DH decides it's time to stand up to his dad and calls him to say how angry you both are at the way he treated the DCs (you are both angry, he's not to say just you are) and that it can't happen again, or you just cut your FIL out. It's his choice, but allowing your DCs to be exposed to that sort of treatment is not going to happen one way or another, his choice which he'll find easier.

HappySeven Sun 28-Apr-13 08:35:02

I'm going against the grain here but I think you overreacted. You weren't there when the original bickering was happening and taking a child by the wrist isn't really that bad. It only looks like they're being dragged if they refuse to walk. I also feel it probably took 5 mins to calm them down because of the way you reacted.

What does your DH say about the incident?

puds11isNAUGHTYnotNAICE Sun 28-Apr-13 08:35:13

Don't see him again then. You cannot trust him with your children. Otherwise see them in a neutral environment.

SanityClause Sun 28-Apr-13 08:35:17

Yes, have you spoken to DH about why he hadn't dealt with the bickering before FIL had a chance to get so angry about it?

He really does need to learn to stand up to his father over the children, though. Your eldest is 7. It's not like there hasn't been time for him to get used to that idea.

NumTumDeDum Sun 28-Apr-13 08:36:22

Ah x post. Fil sounds like my father. I admit I find him difficult to stand up to as well for the same reasons. I have though, like when he insisted I dose up my 2 and a half year old (who had d&v) with immodium to go to a funeral with him involving a 6 hour drive. Fell out big time over that. Obvs I refused. I would have thought dh could stand up to him where his dc are concerned. The fact that he didn't is a problem and perhaps it is time he addresses his issues with counselling.

Shinigami Sun 28-Apr-13 08:36:36

That is awful! Your poor DC. He sounds like a nasty bully and if it were me I wouldn't take them round there again. I think your DH is scared of his F.

mousemole Sun 28-Apr-13 08:36:37

They really werent being that badly behaved. They'd been great all day in the boring, formal environment of their home. The 2 yr old was exhausted and winding his brother up. But it was clear I had recognised this as I'd said 'right, time to go' and gone to gather all our stuff up. So it wasn't like we were all sat there ignoring their bad behaviour. And it just didn't go on that long ! He clearly has big anger issues, just can't believe he lost it with the little ones.

WeAreEternal Sun 28-Apr-13 08:37:33

What an awful man.

I would make it clear to DH that you and the DCs are never setting foot in his house again. If he wants to visit you that fine, but you are never putting your children in that situation again.

I would probably have given the bastard a piece of my mind too, how dare he treat small children like that

mousemole Sun 28-Apr-13 08:40:19

NumTum I feel your pain smile
I'm sad at the huge grenade that has now just exploded into family relations. But he ruined it for himself didn't he.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Sun 28-Apr-13 08:47:32

Well, I think actually that your DH is largely to blame here. Why hadn't he stopped the bickering before FIL reached the point where he felt he had to deal with it?

I definitely understand you being upset, I would be furious with my FIL for doing something like this BUT he is an unpleasant man and I dislike him. If I came across my own father doing this to my boys then I would think 'bloody hell what have they done to get him so riled up'.
What I'm saying is that your dislike for your FIL is clearly colouring your view here.

Just to be clear, I wouldn't expect to find either my FIL or my Dad doing this to my children. One, because they wouldn't do it, but two because DH and I keep our children under control in someone else's house.

OHforDUCKScake Sun 28-Apr-13 08:49:06

What does your DH say?

Tanith Sun 28-Apr-13 08:50:36

YANBU, but I would not be cross with your DH. If your FIL can behave like that to his grandchildren, I can imagine what your DH's childhood was like.
I expect he's feeling bad enough already sad

Your FIL sounds like a nasty bully and I'm not sure I could welcome him in my home. Certainly, I wouldn't be taking my kids to him.

It was your FIL that did this - his responsibility. Your DH being frozen into inaction is a sad indication of his own bad experiences.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Sun 28-Apr-13 08:56:29

Tanith - really? I don't buy that. If he knows his father is likely to go off like that then he should be making sure his children are better behaved.

OP - tbh the fact that your DH didn't react at all, makes me think that you are over-reacting.

mousemole Sun 28-Apr-13 08:57:43

I just want to be clear.. For 98% of the time of the visit the children were really well behaved. It was just a few minutes of tired sniping at each other whilst I was gathering things to leave. His reaction was completely over the top.

mousemole Sun 28-Apr-13 08:59:44

DH is mortified that he didn't step in and feels horrendous as he knows how bad the situation but yes he was frozen by fear and I suspect taken straight back to his childhood. 😞

Figgygal Sun 28-Apr-13 09:03:49

Sounds like ur dh sat on his arse and let it happen tbh but your FIL was wrong to react in that way too.

MimiSunshine Sun 28-Apr-13 09:06:18

I would not appreciate anyone doing that to my child, but it probably looked worse than it was in some ways unless he was holding them off the ground by their wrists. But I'd certainly (as a couple) be telling FIL that he is to never to manhandle them in that way again.

Your DH clearly needs support in standing up to his dad as I'm guessing there are decades of conditioning to wipe out.

However it's not clear from what you've said if you or your DH actually did anything to stop the bickering. Getting up and saying "right lets go" does not cover it, it's too subtle for children of that age to pick up on.
So when you walked out of the room and DH just sat there, to your FIL you probably looked the kind of parents who get slated on here for not immediately breaking up their warring children.

ll31 Sun 28-Apr-13 09:08:28

Given that you weren't there you don't really know what caused the reaction. clearly I don't either but do wonder how much your reaction contributed to their taking time to calm down . If they were in living room he was hardly dragging them across a long distance, sounds to me like their upset was likely a continuation of their arguments.
Also though your dh should have managed his kids and should also have intervened if indeed your fil reaction was over the top.

mousemole Sun 28-Apr-13 09:09:13

Mimi, I wasn't there but he said yes he was telling to stop bickering and that we were about to go.

DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper Sun 28-Apr-13 09:10:59

Please do not listen to anyone who says your children should have been impeccably behaved and 100% under control from go to woah.

We're talking about a 2YO and a 4YO and with the best will in the world, zero misbehaving is not possible. Anyone who thinks it is, is either childless, a long way removed from this age group, or wilfully putting the boot in, in the time-honoured manner of AIBU.

missnevermind Sun 28-Apr-13 09:11:01

I imagine that your DH has had it drummed into him for 30? years that FIL is the man, he is in charge, you will do as you are told. And his conditioning left him unable to help his own sons in that instant.

mousemole Sun 28-Apr-13 09:11:57

Should of explained their living/ dining room is joined up and a huge room and he dragged them quite a way. When I walked in both boys were screaming hysterically so it wasnt a reaction to me. The 2 year old Leo saying 'grandpa hurt my hand ' in the car on the way home and other son cried at bedtime about it.

mousemole Sun 28-Apr-13 09:12:46

'the 2 year old was saying'
Bloomin autocorrect

mousemole Sun 28-Apr-13 09:14:18

DonDrapers... Exactly smile
Missnevermind you have summed it up brilliantly smile

Icantstopeatinglol Sun 28-Apr-13 09:15:18

Yanbu, I wouldn't be taking them back there full stop! I'd be annoyed at your dh too, I understand it probably brought back memories etc but they're his kids and regardless he should have stood up for them. They're 2 + 4 I think you said? Of course they bicker! Hardly a reason to drag them and upset them like that.

VinegarDrinker Sun 28-Apr-13 09:17:09

I get that your DH was "frozen with fear" after your FIL kicked off, but I agree he should have stepped in before that point to distract/discipline them if you want to avoid others doing it.

What was he doing while you ran around getting everything sorted? In our family one of us gets the stuff and the other gets the toddler into his coat/shoes etc.

I also think you shouting probably escalated the situation and scared them more.

I can understand why you are cross but you know what your FIL is like - a bit of a bully by the sounds of it, so I would just avoid leaving them alone together in future. I doubt they will be scarred for life.

mousemole Sun 28-Apr-13 09:17:21

Drafting an email to him today. A phonecall won't work with his anger.
Trying to think of the wording which will have maximum impact and get through to him.

dawntigga Sun 28-Apr-13 09:18:43

FFS he dragged 2 small boys across a room, people, under what circumstances is that appropriate?

mousemole you have a very simple solution, you don't go to your FiL's again. He was out of order and owes those children an apology. We all do things we shouldn't but most of us have enough backbone to apologise to those we hurt. Under no circumstances is he to be left alone with the boys.

If it were me, under no circumstances would I visit that home again. If I HAD to meet him I'd do it on neutral ground. I'd also encourage dh to get some counselling.

He'sAFreakingBullyTiggaxx

VinegarDrinker Sun 28-Apr-13 09:20:17

Btw I meant to say, we have a situation in our family where, without going into specifics, we can't leave any children unattended with my Dad. We are all aware of this and it doesn't stop us seeing him, we just make sure we alter our behaviour accordingly.

If your sons gain from a relationship with your in laws and extended family then I wouldn't be keen to chuck the baby out with the bathwater and refuse to ever go again.

DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper Sun 28-Apr-13 09:20:49

I have a 2YO and a 4TYO. smile

My Dad is an ex-museum/art gallery director, he has a lot of art and, um, pieces on display. Precious stuff gets moved out of reach. Otherwise, he goes with the flow, and/or we teach them to just look, be gentle, etc. It's a work in progress. He understand they're 2 and 4. Barking and shouting simply does not happen. What with him not being a bully.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sun 28-Apr-13 09:21:28

IME children of 2 and 4 pick up on an atmosphere of disapproval, and can behave worse in the company of those with whom they are insecure. Seems to fit the bill here, so I don't agree about them being badly behaved.

The FILs behaviour was terrible. Good grandparents cope better, not worse than parents with bickering and the like.

Agree about your DH

mousemole Sun 28-Apr-13 09:22:03

I'm with you dawntigga, I think he needs anger management counselling.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sun 28-Apr-13 09:22:22

Good grandparents cope better, not worse, that parents ...

Something similar happened to us when we were visiting the PIL. I was coming down with a D&V bug, so wasn't as on top of my toddler as I should have been (too busy running to bathroom to puke!) and he was being a little naughty (he was 2 at the time, so nothing major). Normally, we would head home once he was getting to the tired and bored stage, so would avoid this behaviour.

While me and DH were getting ready to leave (DH only just having arrived to drive me home), FIL lost it with my DS, and lashed out at him. It was only because my DS turned away at the last second that he wasn't walloped! FIL's face was red with rage, so he had clearly lost it.

We were too stunned to say anything, and just gathered our things and left. My DH was a bit like yours, and has been conditioned not to cross his father, but this was too much even for him to ignore.

The next time we went there, we dealt with it as low key as we could. My DH took my FIL aside as we were leaving, and had a word with him, to the effect that he was not to hit our DS, and that was not how were were dealing with discipline. He seemed to take it well, and we thought that was the end of it.

We came to find out weeks later that FIL was refusing to come to ours and see us (no big loss, but it meant MIL, who can't drive, couldn't see our DCs either), and was in a big strop. All because my DH had the temerity to say anything to him. My MIL was sticking up for him, and basically denying that he almost hit our DS. Apparently he was just 'getting out of his chair'. Yeah, right. It all culminated in a phonecall that I had with my MIL (as my DH was not really dealing with his parents at all well), where I told he what I really thought, without mincing words. Not pleasant, but far too much pussy footing around my FIL for my liking.

I'm not sure if this helps you at all, but you're not the only one in this position, and to my mind, it doesn't matter that you were in their house, your FIL had no right to get that physical with your children. He should have walked away, or told you to do something if he didn't like their behaviour. He lost control, pure and simple.

pigletmania Sun 28-Apr-13 09:24:49

Your Fil should not have done what he did, it was wrong. However you knew that he finds th kids in his house stressful, so why take them there! My mum is the same and we just dint go to her house, it better for all of us if mm comes to stay with usevery month. Your dh should have stepped in, so you should be angry an both and look at why the situation escalated

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sun 28-Apr-13 09:25:03

Also, I can see how your DH might find it hard to assert himself - to his children and to his dad, if he really is scared or even uncomfortable with his dad. Seems he needs help with this if past experiences are affecting present behaviour

Hissy Sun 28-Apr-13 09:26:36

I think as bad as it is, and as horrific an event for you all, there could be a seachange possible here.

Your H suffered at the hands of his bullying father, he felt powerless at the time, and now he's just been trasnported straight back while his DC took the abuse.

This is the time you take on board his childhood trauma, and point out that if your DC are conditioned to accept the same, by their parents doing nothing, that they will grow up in fear too.

Your H needs to see this as a game changer, that now it's time to act. He could really benefit from counselling. To deal with the events of the past, and enable him to get past it, and be able to be a better father to his DC.

Now is the time for him to do something about it. First he must agree that you all won't be going over there, that if they want to see you, and the boys that they come to you. That way the boys will be at home, have toys etc to keep them busy etc. MIL/FIL can leave when they are ready to go.

Personally, I'd be calling the FIL myself and set him damned straight,that he might get some kind of emotional hard on in terrorising and manhandling small boys, and he may have got away with bullying your H, but he WON'T ever be allowed to repeat that behaviour with your DC.

You say they had been there all day. Is it necessary to be in their house for such a long time? If I were you I would severely limit the amount of time you spend there. No children of that age can be kept quiet and calm for hours on end.

pigletmania Sun 28-Apr-13 09:27:21

A lot of elderly peopl are less tolerant, do no cop with a lt of noise and stress that kids bring, des not make them horrid parents

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sun 28-Apr-13 09:28:50

Something else comes to mind - probably not relevant here - but in the absence of a history of bullying/anger, some elderly people can be irritable/intolerant because of early dementia

Tell them that you are very concerned about the effects of FIL's anger and control problems on your children, and would like to find a solution so that you can still all see each other. Tell them that you're sure FIL knows that is it not acceptable to touch your children in anger, ever, and that you need his promise to never do so again. And suggest that you meet at your house "for a while".

TBH, I suspect there is a whole can of worms waiting to be opened in your dh / FIL here. I wouldn't be afraid of exploding things - better to open it up now than let it fester for a few more years and then do it. (not diplomatic, me!)

pigletmania Sun 28-Apr-13 09:30:44

Reading the rest of you posts op I would not go back, and would not have much to do with FIL. Go FIL like?

pigletmania Sun 28-Apr-13 09:31:05

Meant how's Mil like

CaptainSweatPants Sun 28-Apr-13 09:32:34

Next time separate the 2 kids if they're arguing
I'd have asked the 4 year old to help carry stuff into the car with you

If your FIL is anything like mine, he won't see anything wrong in his behaviour, and you won't get an apology or acknowledgement or wrongdoing.

I'd be figuring out how to manage the situation from now on - not visiting them in their own home, leaving FIL out of arrangements if possible, or even cutting them out completely.

Harsh, but your priority is your DCs, not maintaining a relationship with a bully.

My Dad is the same, huge anger issues. He walloped my son when he was 18 months old for fiddling with something on the floor of the kitchen.

I no longer see my Dad, he just cannot keep his cool with young children at all and shouts at them easily. My mum comes to me on her own now. It's much much easier. I used to spend the whole visit making sure they didn't go near his antique clocks, tables etc and feeling so on edge, in case he lost it.

An e-mail wouldn't work with my Dad, he's always right and it would inflame things further. I just backed off and became 'busier' and unavailable to come over to theirs etc.

Even now when Mum comes, I keep visits short and make sure the children are kept busy and we go out a lot. Boredom makes things worse and mine are 4 & 5.

My whole family just accept my Dad is who he is. They enable his behaviour tbh. No one challenges him, as it's not worth the fall out sad

Oh yes - do be prepared for FIL to be outraged that you've dared to question his perfectness, and to respond with more bullying.

Just remember that your children are the most important ones here (and what they need are safe loving grandparents, not any grandparents at any cost).

mousemole Sun 28-Apr-13 09:36:50

Some brilliant advice here, thank you do much. Hissy you are so right, maybe this will be the final catalyst for them to examine the deep
Seated issues and make some positive changes.
I'm feeling fortified by all your words of advice and hearing similar stories.

MissLurkalot Sun 28-Apr-13 09:37:22

I'm with Hissy Well said!

hermioneweasley Sun 28-Apr-13 09:38:25

Agree it sounds like your FIL over reacted, but your DH should have stepped in. You said he was telling the kids not to bicker - when did that ever work with little kids?

But these situations happen with small children hermioneweasley, even if you are on top of them all the time. The FIL dealt with it horrendously badly. Yes, her DH could have done better, but don't underestimate the power of childhood conditioning, even as an adult.

soundevenfruity Sun 28-Apr-13 09:59:27

I have a feeling it's one of those carefully edited AIBU posts that is written to gather support for OP. The only thing is it would be much easier for all involved during a very formal visit if you or your husband took the children, especially boys, out for a short run around. I wouldn't expect under 5s to behave without it.

mousemole Sun 28-Apr-13 10:38:42

They'd run around the garden for an hour in arctic wind and hailstones after lunch

GoblinGranny Sun 28-Apr-13 11:18:46

I wouldn't blame your DH, if you've been brought up with that level of control and fear in your life, it is very hard not to flashback to the default setting when you are back in the home and your father is yelling at you.
I would say that visits by grandchildren are a privilege, and that if your FIL isn't prepared to be reasonable, then either the visits cease or they are very short indeed, and preferably on neutral ground.
I have lived with a domineering father, it used to be particularly bad when he'd come back after an unaccompanied posting and feel the need to redefine his turf. I fought back, my other siblings didn't.
Your children need a loving, reasonable and rational environment to grow up in. There is no good reason for them to be dragged about and frightened by their grandfather.

GoblinGranny Sun 28-Apr-13 11:20:11

If the DH had been a DW, would you be victim-blaming?

I used to call it the death grip and I used it to remove my children from a situation where I thought their behaviour was out of order and they needed a stern word from me out of the situation <shrugs>

All depends who said what and how it was done.

Mumsyblouse Sun 28-Apr-13 11:29:08

So what if your kids bickered or even had a complete meltdown? You can't stop children from doing anything negative ever, that's not possible, even if you aim for good behaviour and deal quickly with any noise/issues.

I would see this as a good opportunity to set up some new ground rules. For sure don't take them over there again, a two year old around glass tables with an angry FIL is a recipe for disaster. But I see no reason why they couldn't come to yours and have a good relationship, as long as you spell out very clearly (as your DH clearly can't) that you are the parent, you decide the discipline and they are NOT to discipine/shout/move the children whatsoever.

Now- your FIL won't like this but tough, if he wants to be part of your family, he has to be nicer and more controlled. If he can't, he won't be able to be involved. I think he'll play ball on your territory with your rules.

So, you have not over-reacted, but I also think talk of never seeing them again is too much, try to see this as a way to re-set the reliationship so you are the ones who say what happens with your boys.

I don't do talking nice to bickering children. They need to be told, firmly, that it has to stop. Right now.

I don't do that in front of others at a family occasion and have removed my children from a situation, using a firm grip on their wrist and with a very cross "come with me right now" or "get your backside out here with me right now".

Obviously I'm an abuser and my kids are traumatised and their going to have issues when they have children. hmm

He didn't wallop them - he got the hold of them by the wrist and told them to get out.

Sounds to me like they'd been misbehaving all day and he'd decided he'd had enough.

Mumsyblouse Sun 28-Apr-13 11:32:55

soundevenfruity even if the OP hadn't taken the children out for a run, you can't only visit the IL's on the condition that the children make no noise, never bicker and don't ever cry or get upset. Otherwise, what's that? A fake visit in which you all pretend to be someone else, all spend time glaring and over-disciplining the children, and then all leave and breathe a sigh of relief. I think it's ok to have children who are basically well-behaved for the vast majority of the time, with the odd lapse when they are tired or at the end of the day. I hate 'best behaviour' visits where you all want them to go quickly so you can get back to real nice normal relaxing life.

Bowlersarm Sun 28-Apr-13 11:34:17

I think you should have had more of a handle on the situation tbh. Older generation/small excitable over tired children after a long day is not a great mix. Try a shorter period next time?

They're not their.

A 7 and 5 should definitely be able to behave on a visit, a 2 year old - that's a bigger ask.

But they need to learn to behave. And that a visit is a visit and there is an appropriate standard of behaviour which is expected.

Mumsyblouse Sun 28-Apr-13 11:35:02

Freddie I agree, I always remove my own children if they are bickering or badly behaved (when little enough to remove!) before disciplining. I have carried mine out of a nice dinner on more than one occasion. But: sorry, not the FIL's job. It's the parents. I have never dragged another person's child across the room and neither should he.

Yes but look at it from the FIL perspective. The parents had done nothing. His own son was sitting there doing nothing.

He snapped and removed them. Firmly. He didn't wallop them, he removed them.

Meh. I don't see the big deal.

If the parents had stepped up to the mark, both of them, and done their fucking job as parents, then it wouldn't have happened.

I cannot abide bickering badly behaved children and have been at family dinners where other children's behaviour has seriously gripped my shit and I have left early because of it.

And just because DH is at his parents' doesn't mean he's able to opt out and sit there like a pudding and let his children misbehave.

Mumsyblouse Sun 28-Apr-13 11:39:28

I agree it's not that big a deal as if he walloped them but have you never had friends over and their kids have started bickering and you really wish they'd say something or just hurry up and go, but you don't leap up and drap them across the room.

He sounds like he was an angry dad and he needs to know he can't be an angry grandfather. I wouldn't allow my FIl to do that, he's big and scary and even I would be terrified. No. Not ok with his grandchildren.

FIL did similar once when DC were small.
After I'd torn him a new arsehole he saw the error of his ways. Didn't wait for DH, was in full mummy tiger mode.
Bullies respect strength IMO and FIL now knows that if he ever goes there again, he will be very sorry indeed.

pickledginger Sun 28-Apr-13 11:41:04

You don't see 'the big deal' in a 6 foot 4 man dragging a 2 and 5 year old across the room by their wrists?

Let me help. It's child abuse.

But this wasn't a friend. This was a FIL and it was HIS HOUSE.

Drama over nothing. Seriously seriously drama over nothing.

I cannot abide children who don't know when to behave and I wouldn't have a friend who played namby pamby pandering parenting.

So I'm a child abuser. hmm

I don't see the big deal. They were misbehaving - he removed them. Firmly and probably shouted, but he removed them.

Teach them to behave properly and it won't happen the next time.

Bowlersarm Sun 28-Apr-13 11:45:37

I don't see it as a big deal either. Their father was present but chose not to say anything.

Does that make him a child abuser as well pickledginger?

pickledginger Sun 28-Apr-13 11:46:30

If you do that to a 2 year old, yes. That's what SS would say when they got the report from A & E about a dislocated elbow.

Mumsyblouse Sun 28-Apr-13 11:47:02

Yes, it was his house in which a 2 and 4 year old had played nicely all day but had become a bit bickery. So what? Why couldn't he have leant down to the eldest and said 'why don't you come and help me with X while mummy is getting the car ready?' or done what my grandpa would have done and got us a square of chocolate to distract us?

Dragging angry shouty big men and little grandchildren, no no no. He is not their parent. If you are the parent, fine to remove your children or leave a party if you don't like the behaviour of anyone else. Putting your hands on other people's children? this is an obvious no.

Where in the OP does it say there was a dislocated elbow?

pickledginger Sun 28-Apr-13 11:48:00

'The fact that DH did feck all is a huge issue in itself, tied up in a childhood of command and control from said FIL and the fact that he is scared of his father'

A grown man is scared of him because of his 'parenting'.

pickledginger Sun 28-Apr-13 11:48:42

It doesn't. It's the most common injury in under 5s. It results from pulling them by the wrist.

TidyDancer Sun 28-Apr-13 11:49:05

This is absolutely not drama over nothing. If you feel the parents of the children are doing nothing, the answer is NOT to manhandle the children, hurting them and scaring them in the process.

I wouldn't dream of doing that to a child in my house, and plenty of my friends DCs have misbehaved in my house over the years. It doesn't give me the right to be physically abusive to them.

Bowlersarm Sun 28-Apr-13 11:49:16

Hmmm. My DS has a dislocated elbow. No one seemed interested in following that up, after he had been to a&e

pickledginger Sun 28-Apr-13 11:50:00

Right. hmm

Social Services might be called for lots of things. But if they DIDN'T ACTUALLY HAPPEN then they won't be.

Bowlersarm Sun 28-Apr-13 11:50:36

Also, slightly irrelevant, he didn't have a dislocated elbow

pickledginger Sun 28-Apr-13 11:51:41

If you told them it happened whilst an adult was dragging them across the room by their wrists whilst they screamed in pain I'm fairly sure they would.

VinegarDrinker Sun 28-Apr-13 11:52:30

But if the DH had intervened before his father lost the plot, there was nothing for him to be terrified of, surely. I still don't get what he was doing while his wife was running around gathering the stuff and his kids were tired, grumpy and misbehaving.

(I write as someone who grew up with a parent who could just flip at any moment. It means I take care to try and pre-empt and avoid that situation developing with my own DS, not just sit on my ares).

HappySeven Sun 28-Apr-13 11:52:35

It's not child abuse, ginger, and his height is irrelevant. By using it the OP is conjuring up a huge man when really all adults are larger and able to overpower a small child. It's emotive.

If your FIL does 'back down' it will be because he wants to keep the peace and continue to see his grandchildren. I'm sure he loves them, maybe he wants to make sure they don't turn out spoilt. Maybe it's worth reading the thread a while ago about the woman who reprimanded her nephews (?) when they were running around a restaurant and the grandmother didn't like to say anything.

But, small relevant fact, no child actually had their elbow dislocated.

Chandon Sun 28-Apr-13 11:53:14

That was not on, for your FIl.

But you sould have intervened in the bickering stage instead of walking off.

Your DH needs to learn to be a father.

All off you unreasonable, IMO.

So if you know your DH can't parent, then it is up to you. So maybe next time let DH do the packing so you can stay with the kids.

It is hard work parenting a 2 yr old and a 4 yr old, but it has to be done.

squeakytoy Sun 28-Apr-13 11:56:36

It isnt child abuse. It is called taking control of a situation and showing a child who is in charge. He firmly took them by the wrist, he didnt punch them in the face!

veryberrybug Sun 28-Apr-13 11:56:48

definitely agree that you shouldn't go back there, FIL obviously has inability to stop himself from blowing up which is a big risk for small children. he was bang out of order. however, though i feel sorry for your DH being frightened of FIL, i find it worrying that the paralysing fear was stronger than protective instinct as a parent. is this the first time FIL has done something like this & DH not stood up to him? maybe this could be the catalyst for DH to break out of being submissive child, after all he is an adult now.

GoblinGranny Sun 28-Apr-13 11:57:06

'I cannot abide children who don't know when to behave and I wouldn't have a friend who played namby pamby pandering parenting.'

Exactly so Freddie, and that's why the OP should put some distance between her FIL and her children until they've worked out the rules. I wouldn't have put either of my children into a visit that left them afraid. If the adults can't cope, then the children shouldn't be the victims.
My dad is a fantastic grandfather, but we set up very clear chains of command and rules that he understood. Including his right to say 'enough' or go out for a pint if they were more than he could manage. And that if he had a problem that enraged him, he roared for me or OH instead of trying to deal with it.

HappySeven Sun 28-Apr-13 11:57:31

They are not screaming in pain (just temper) in my experience. I was regularly moved around by a teacher who would grab us by the wrist. It didn't hurt because I went with her. My own DD would claim someone hurt her when no one is near. Children are not stupid and will try and get sympathy when they can - it's human nature.

pickledginger Sun 28-Apr-13 11:59:18

A 2 year old can be picked up!!! You can 'take control' by scooping them up and taking them out of the room.

outtolunchagain Sun 28-Apr-13 12:01:07

I think I would just not visit , you don't need to make a family drama out of it, just suggest they come to you next time you are invited or politely decline an invitation due to a prior engagement .When thy do come to yours never leave him unaccompanied with the children and make sure that at the slightest sign of trouble the children are removed from his vicinity .

Let them draw their own conclusions , in my experience actions speak louder than words. My own mother let rip in the car at my eldest ( then6) because he didn't know the right turning for home. He has never been in a car with her unaccompanied again and neither have either of his siblings.

GoblinGranny Sun 28-Apr-13 12:01:55

My sister once did something that would have caused my father to explode with rage, but she was with her DH instead. Who didn't.
She burst into tears, and it took him a while to understand why.
I think those of you that haven't lived with a parent whose responses terrified you have little idea how long it affects you, and at what point it resurfaces to knock the legs from under you.

pickledginger 'A grown man is scared of him because of his 'parenting'.'
sounds very scornful. Would you prefer for the OP to be married to a man who emulated his father's behaviour?

joanofarchitrave Sun 28-Apr-13 12:05:51

I wouldn't email, or phone, or anything tbh. I would just ensure that any future visits are short. If they ask you for the whole day, either say no or that you have to be back at home by 4. An awful lot of grandparents aren't great at the role, it's not like they chose it.

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Sun 28-Apr-13 12:17:09

Removing a misbehaving child is fine. You do it in a safe way. You don't pull them in a way that could seriously hurt them. If he had been holding their hands and removing them from the room, then fair enough. But the OP says he was dragging them by their wrists and that they were in pain. That's dragging. not holding not guiding not escorting. dragging. You cannot drag a child by their wrist. You run the risk of causing them physical harm. You cannot - or should not! - pull a person (and therefore their entire body weight) by a wrist. That's how things get bloody damaged! dislocated wrist, pulled elbow, etc.

I would simply stay away. I wouldn't even bother emailing him. If he can drag children the length of a room by their wrists and not care that they were crying out in pain or that he could cause them a physical injury by doing so, frankly he's not likely to give a shit about anything you say or think about it.

It's all about perspective isn't it? Someone would see me with my child by the wrist and call it "dragging" I'd call it "firmly removing" - words are everything.

FWIW I think the OP doesn't like her FIL, doesn't want to have to see him, and this has given her the excuse she needs.

Which is fine and her choice, but she's chosen deliberately inflammatory language and her OP could have been worded in a different way to make much less of it.

MayTheOddsBeEverInYourFavour Sun 28-Apr-13 12:29:36

Even if you think dragging a child along hard by it's wrists is ok (which I absolutely don't) it wasn't your fil's place to step in, especially as you were just about to leave

It would be a dealbraker for me

If you do have contact with him in future has your husband said anything about how he will manage if a similar situation happens in the future? Being scared if his father is not a good enough reason to not protect his children

flippinada Sun 28-Apr-13 12:30:36

Ignore the minimising and victim blaming posts. He sounds dreadful.

I wouldn't bother emailing either as I can more or less guarantee it will inflame things and he won't listen.

I too am wondering about where MIL was in all this. Apologies if it's been explained and I missed it.

Have you decided whether you are going to email them, and if so, what approach you are going to take?

Alibabaandthe40nappies Sun 28-Apr-13 12:41:26

OP - why did you go out of the room when they had started bickering without dealing with it?

I just think you and your DH have been lax with the parenting here - and FWIW, my 2 are exactly the same age as yours. If they start bickering when we are anywhere but at home either DH or I are on it straight away. Not one of us leaving the room and the other sitting on our arses doing nothing about it.

pickledginger Sun 28-Apr-13 12:45:34

Goblingranny, not at all. I meant that if a grown man is still scared of him because of his behaviour as a parent over the years then what chance do two small children stand.

MayTheOddsBeEverInYourFavour Sun 28-Apr-13 12:48:50

Even if the op and her DH were lax in their parenting, and I don't think they were at all. Why does that mean fil was ok to shout at and hurt two small children?

There are some genuinely lax parents out there, we've all met them does that mean we can just grab their kids and drag them around whenever we want?

LimitedEditionLady Sun 28-Apr-13 12:49:50

I agree i wouldnt take them,id say come to ours.and id be livid with manhandling.dont believe it sets the right life examples.if anything he will lose their respect.you dont get resoect through fear.

Mumsyblouse Sun 28-Apr-13 12:51:13

But-perhaps I have a different relationship with my family, but my family see us warts and all. We don't put on a show of perfect behaviour and then hastily leave. We could do that, we could go for two hours, all be the perfect children and grandchildren and then hurridly leave, but how awful, no real contact, no real interaction, just show behaviour and out you go.

I'm not saying they should tolerate hours of bad behaviour, but three little boys, all pretty good for a few hours, suddenly start a bicker whilst getting in the car is too much for them to deal with?

I guess I see family differently. I don't like it if my children play up in front of family members, but I do see it as normal, especially in very little ones (2 & 4). What if the two-year old has a tantrum? Or winges? Or is a normal 2 year old?

I guess the thing is the OP can't relax around her PIL, nor can her husband and nor now can the children. I would hate for my children/grandchilden in the future to be dreading coming over or limiting their time at my house for fear we might get upset. This isn't family to me (but I accept lots of people do think a 2 hour duty visit is preferable to seeing the real side of their grand-children!)

MrsCampbellBlack Sun 28-Apr-13 12:58:39

Thank goodness I have a lovely fil who when the children bicker (as all small children do) kindly diffuses the situation.

And the OP has said her children were good for the majority of the day and yet as is typical on here people are saying 'oh they'd clearly misbehaved all day' or you know perhaps the OP is telling the truth and her FIL is a bully.

OP - I'd limit visits but wouldn't bother with an email - I doubt it would solve anything sadly.

Jakadaal Sun 28-Apr-13 13:05:17

I have had a similar experience with my SFIL. MIL is fab but SFIL is very intolerant of children. I don't like confrontation but saw red, read him the riot act about the fact that I was the parent not him and that if he had a problem with my child's behaviour that he should bring it to my attention. I was told I was being ridiculous (this was all over 4 excited children jumping on a bed and being encourage to do so by MIL but my DS was the only one chastised). My response - I told him how I felt and said that I would never visit the house again and I haven't. MIL and I maintain a wonderful relationship and SFIL are civil and put up with each other but he has never repeated this behaviour again.

YADNU - stand up to the bully (its what you would tell your children)

Hissy Sun 28-Apr-13 13:05:52

Bugger the consequences of inflaming the situation, FIL is NOT the one to manhandle small children. If he thought someone should do/say something his ONLY responsibility is to say to the parent present, 'Are you going to stop this?'

I wouldn't email, I'd make a CALL tbh, he needs to be told. An email is too passive.

Yes our DC play up, yes sometimes we are hotter on it than at other times, but NEVER do we allow someone to ride roughshod over OUR DC, or manhandle them. We can remove our children, we can discipline them, but for FIL to step in here was OTT and out of order.

The FIL has form, he has over stepped the mark. He needs physically telling. Someone has to stand up to him and on behalf of children that sounded as if they had been pretty good considering.

Hissy Sun 28-Apr-13 13:08:13

My Stepfather is often out of line and I tell him. He is a nasty little man with ishoos IMVHO, but he won't be allowed to swear at my child, he won't shout the odds at me either. He tries, frequently. He gest put damned straight.

My mother gets it both barrels from me too when he does, cos it's her flaming lapdog, SHE needs to teach it to play nice.

I hate bullies, they are the lowest and most insignificant beings on earth.

flippinada Sun 28-Apr-13 13:20:48

Hissy I agree, inflaming was a bad choice of words.

What I meant was, FIL will use the email as an opportunity to create a big drama or alternatively ignore it and carry on as he always has done.

I don't mean OP should say nothing and ignore it.

I completely agree that bullying behaviour should not be tolerated.

flippinada Sun 28-Apr-13 13:23:12

I strongly suspect the FIL will not take a telling off from the OP seriously.

That doesn't mean he shouldn't be pulled up on his behaviour.

mousemole Sun 28-Apr-13 13:25:00

Freddie , really not sure what part of my post was deliberately inflammatory ? As for not liking the man..too damn right. I've never liked him. He's a big bully who bullies his wife and children and doesn't like me because I stand up to him and always have.
MIL, who is sweet but bullied was in another room so not around. I'm fond of her and she has a big heart.
Interestingly FIL has just been through a lengthy tribunal where a former colleague at a charity he volunteers at accused him of bullying and intimidation. I can well believe it.
As for the 'dragging', I really mean ''dragging'. I don't mean a firm grab and march along that I'm sure we have all done. His face was puce with rage and he dragged them forcefully . 2 year old was terrified.
I can't make up my mind about the email. I want him to know how wrong we found his actions, that it is up to us to parent and that manhandling the kids is not on. I'd like an apology.

Hissy Sun 28-Apr-13 13:25:38

I agree, emailing leaves a trace, something the bastard can show to others and doctor even to make out the OP is in the wrong.

A call is between the 2 of them , can be referred to time and time again by the OP and there is no denying it took place. Any discrepancy/rewriting of history and it would always be his word against mousehole , and given a bit of support the MrMousehole could step up and back his wife.

Hissy Sun 28-Apr-13 13:27:27

If FIL won't be told off, then he can stay home and MIL can come to visit.

He wants to behave like a child he can do.

But he won't be able to bully our OP and her family anymore.

Shame there are no tribunals for families...

mousemole Sun 28-Apr-13 13:28:16

Hissy I do know what you mean.. That he will turn the email back on to us and probably take it as an opportunity to berate us over lots of things.
BUT, a phone call won't work.. He will put the phone down. They are 1.5hrs away in car so can't pop round and frankly don't want to. So I think it has to be letter or email.

flippinada Sun 28-Apr-13 13:28:29

mousemole he sounds vile. I loathe people who rule by fear and intimidation, good on you for standing up to him.

mousemole Sun 28-Apr-13 13:29:06

Tribunals for families.. I love that idea !

GoblinGranny Sun 28-Apr-13 13:30:47

You are unlikely to get an apology, I think the only way to make him understand is to set rules and stick with them, whatever blustering and name-calling and emotional blackmail he tries on you and your husband.
So if you say that your visits will be x hours long, and that if he yells or loses his temper you and the children will simply leave, then do exactly that.
Make sure the children understand that it is their grandfather who can't cope and if they've tried their best, then there is no blame involved and they've done nothing wrong when it's time to leave.

Hissy Sun 28-Apr-13 13:36:02

Call him. Start the conversation calmly.

I'm calling about what happened yesterday. I wanted to hear from you as to what you did to the children and why. I'm here to listen and try to understand.

If he talks to you, saying anything about anything, reply calmly, 'I see'.

Then state that discipline is the role of the parents and that if he has any issues that he speak to you or your DH, but that he may NOT directly intervene and certainly NEVER lay a hand on them.

If he hangs up, then tbh, you can write to the MIL and tell her that you will not be allowing him access to your DC, due to his treatment of them and inability to apologise for doing so.

and then leave it at that.

Hissy Sun 28-Apr-13 13:38:36

I'd also refuse to go up there again, keep it all on your own home turf. He can't shout if the ornament is yours, the teacup is yours now can he?

One of the things we are all conscious of is going home we revert to the child form. This is clearly what has happened to your DH, and a very frightened little boy he sounds to have been indeed. sad

By having them at your home, Your H may feel stronger. You can talk to him about this and see if it would help you all cope.

take the power back grin

mousemole Sun 28-Apr-13 13:44:31

I'm definitely not going there again. At least if they are here they can leave when they've had enough. Probably yesterday we should have left half an hour earlier but there were family visiting from Australia who we are close too and were enjoying catching up with them.
Maybe I'll write the email and just save it in drafts for a few days and reflect. I'm away next weekend and they were due to visit for the bank holiday to help out DH. I pointed out that we could just cancel that arrangement with no explanation and that actions speak louder than words.

Notquitegrownup Sun 28-Apr-13 13:50:06

Have you considered waiting for him to call you, MM. Other people seem to be running after him trying to sort his issues out. He is probably on the defensive, waiting for your calls/accusations. Why not wait for him to call, and then when/if he does, explain that you are all still very upset about what happened and why? If he is defensive or angry, then you say thanks for the call, but clearly being near small children is too stressful for you and leave it at that. It is only if/when he realises that he is missing out on family life that he might think to amend his behaviour. Talking it through with someone whom he knows stands up to him, is possibly only going to make him angrier.

IloveJudgeJudy Sun 28-Apr-13 13:52:06

We had the same situation as some others here - my father. We did have a family conflab about it, but upshot was, DM would not go places without him for a long time, so DC were never left alone with him. Gradually visits to their house got less and less, he became less physically able and she would visit without him.

I wouldn't e-mail him; if he's anything like my father was, it will make no difference; in fact it will inflame the situation. Your DH is the one, if any, to say something. I wouldn't make a big deal out of it unless you are prepared to live with the fallout. it may be much bigger than you have anticipated and all sorts of family may be dragged into it. You have no way of knowing that in advance.

If you don't want to see him and MIL any more, then make a big fuss. If you still want communication with the rest of the family, then just manoeuvre situations so that the DC are never, ever left alone with him, ever. You say he has something with the charity he volunteers with. That shows that he will never change (much like my father).

Maxium12 Sun 28-Apr-13 14:04:54

Mousemole, was your MIL there, did she have anything to say? Maybe she's giving him hell or are they all scared of him?

pigletpower Sun 28-Apr-13 14:06:52

Freddie-your posts are such BS.'Freedom fighter or terrorist' only a matter of words.Dragging small children across the room by their wrists is abusive and can cause dislocation and sprains.If you need to remove a two year old you pick them up and do not drag.That is why a nursery worker would lose their job if they did it.Why should a parent/family be allowed to do it? Your attitude disgusts me.

blacklightning Sun 28-Apr-13 14:12:56

From past experience with my bullying fil, I think you need to talk to your dh about how you will address the possible implications of discussing your fils behaviour with him.
My fil was a horrible bully and dh was also intimidated due to a lifetime of being controlled by his dad's aggression. We had a few instances where he clearly crossed the line like yours has. He was verbally aggressive and constantly undermined my dh. He wouldnt hand our newborn ds back once when I asked him to when he was also holding a hot drink right over him. It was clear that he saw a pecking order in the family and he was at the top of it, and he did things like this to show who was in charge. We eventually tried to talk to pils about how we didn't want our children to be around this (more tactfully than that as we still really didn't want to fall out), however he took it really badly and wouldn't acknowledge he had done anything that doesn't go on in all families (his words!) Things escalated by letter and we were basically left in a situation where we had to accept his behaviour or keep our children away. As upset and emotional as it all was, we decided to consider if it was in the children's best interests to maintain a relationship with fil or not. We decided it wasn't in their best interests as fil seemed to want to exert the same aggressive control over our family as he had his own. We did not actually have to say this to him as when he realised we would not be bullied into accepting his behaviour, he lost interest in maintaining a relationship with us and we didn't hear from him again. mil was also bullied but sided with him in the end.
I really hope it doesn't come to that for you and your fil can be more reasonable than mine was.

mousemole Sun 28-Apr-13 14:14:23

Maxim she was in the kitchen. She is lovely but scared of him too.

gotthemoononastick Sun 28-Apr-13 14:19:34

Freddie!!!!many many GPs and great uncles and aunts loving you right now.Sensible Mum.Hate this not allowing GP's to see children...who are the real losers in this?Spite!!!!

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 28-Apr-13 14:23:38

Why bother getting into it with him.

You are the parents of the child concerned not him, it does not matter why he did it or what he thinks about it.

Why piss arse about just " if you ever touch my children like that again I will xyz and you will never see them again"

DontmindifIdo Sun 28-Apr-13 14:26:03

Mousemole - if you want to send an e-mail, send one cancelling them helping out when you are away. Quite frankly, your FIL will not be a help, you will spend your whole time worrying about them and your DH I'm sure would cope better on his own.

I'd say given the history with your DH, and that you think your FIL will just hang up on you, it might be worth just talking to MIL to start with, say that you are very upset with FIL's behaviour towards the DCs, so you don't think it's good for him to be round them for a while, she shouldn't take it personally as you are happy for hte DCs to see her. She can feed that message back to FIL, or will just hide this from him and be quietly upset (if they are the sort of family where she's covered for his bad behaviour and made excuses for it, it's more likely she'll do this).

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 28-Apr-13 14:30:39

Gotthemoon,

What a lot of bollocks. If someone behaves in a abusive way towards your children and you do not stop it or stop contact and anything bad does happen like a none accidental injury its not just the person who does it that is liable its the ineffective parent for not protecting their child when they should have done.

But by all means feel free to carry on thinking dragging your gc's violently across the room because you have rights (even though you actually don't) is ok just because you are related to them.

gotthemoononastick Sun 28-Apr-13 14:36:53

Sock,how rude you are.....abuse is a word so over used that it means nothing any more.

Look. You left the kids with a man you say is abusive. You say your DH is incapable of parenting effectively when he is around. Why do that?

I defy any parent not ever to have taken a child firmly by the wrist and removed them from a situation. Hands are no good in that situation, because they can wriggle out of your grip.

Parenting is a job. You're supposed to be pro-active, you're supposed to actively do something not just sit there and let the kids do as they please.

If you don't like him, don't see him again. That's up to you.

But you need to look at your own actions too - maybe if you had stepped in sooner then he wouldn't have "exploded"

I'd have loved to have seen what you lot would have made of me when mine were younger.

I was not and never would be abusive. But I do expect a standard of behaviour. And my kids know it.

If you didn't want him to take charge of the situation, then your DH should have done something sooner or you should.

And I'm going to leave the thread. Partly because I'm not contributing, since my views don't chime with the majority and I'm being accused of abusing my kids, and secondly because I have somewhere else to be this afternoon.

gotthemoononastick Sun 28-Apr-13 14:39:23

Great post Freddie!!!

And one last thing.

Parents of small children become inured to their behaviour. What they think is cute and endearing, other people who aren't their parents can find intensely irritating.

Maybe what you view as low level bickering, your FIL views as unacceptable, especially in front of visiting family from Australia (which is usually a Very Big Deal in any family I've ever known)

DontmindifIdo Sun 28-Apr-13 14:48:04

Gotthemoon - the real losers in this are the grandparents - children do not benefit at all from being exposed to bullies, even if they are relations. They are really damaged by seeing parents stand by and let them be hurt or treated badly by older relatives because they are the more senior members of the family.

Children are best kept away from bullying, controlling grandparents, where visits to their house are stressful, will they be told off for something minor, will Grandad flip and hurt them?

It's the grandparents who will miss out. The grandparents who will lose their relationship with their own adult DCs as well.

loofet Sun 28-Apr-13 14:50:21

He dragged them out of the room which to some on here is acceptable, however what was he going to do to them if you hadn't have intervened? Hit them? Then would that be enough to make people see what he did was wrong?

Personally I think you shouldn't have spent the whole day there for starters. A two and four year old are too young to stay in an unfamiliar enviornment for so long, especially one where they're restricted constantly on what they can and can't do. A couple of hours would be far better imo. Secondly I would have removed one of the children from the situation- so as someone else suggested, taken the 4yo out to help pack things up.

I wouldn't blame the DH, he clearly was frozen into submission because of how his F treat him as a child. I mean, he clearly is a bully with absolutely no patience, very short fused- imagine being a child permanently around that sad So I feel sympathy for DH more than anything.

If I were you I wouldn't see fil again... 4yo will probably remember that event now and no doubt will be frightened of fil anyway and i'm sure you don't want your DC around someone they are scared of. Also with his short fuse it doesn't sound like he's safe around such young children anyway, one has to have a certain degree of patience to handle young kids! So who's to say he won't flip again, who's to say it won't be worse next time?

Also it surely can't be too pleasant for your DH to be around him anyway.. And it can't be a nice experience to be sat on edge constantly fretting over what the children are going near/how they're acting etc. So I think unless fil changes the habits of a lifetime and maybe gets some anger management the only answer really is to cut him off..

Goldmandra Sun 28-Apr-13 14:55:39

Maybe what you view as low level bickering, your FIL views as unacceptable, especially in front of visiting family from Australia

In that case he should have raised it with their father or perhaps found a way to distract them. There is no acceptable excuse for his physical aggression.

Dragging children by their wrists is not reasonable. If you need to remove a child and they are not cooperating you calmly lift them in a safe manner and remove them that way. You can easily injure wrists and elbows by doing what the OP's FIL did.

It sounds like this man is used to throwing his weight around without being challenged.

If he were my FIL I wouldn't stop him seeing the children. I would expect him to listen to why what he did was inappropriate, ineffective and dangerous. I would also expect him to agree never to use fear or physical aggression to control his grandchildren again.

Like other bullies he may well back down once he realises that someone will stand up to him.

BlueberryHill Sun 28-Apr-13 15:02:38

Love some posters saying that the kids / parents were at fault, the kids should have behaved perfectly all day and managed to control themselves and that the FIL only snapped due to the bickering at the end of the day. Who is the adult here and should have been in control of their emotions? Yes the FIL. It sounds as though the children were well behaved most of the day and were only bickering at the end of the day, hardly unruly and annoying everyone all day.

If you snap so that you are red in the face, you have lost it and are may be unable to control the physical force applied. Dragging two children across the floor would take a lot of strength and effort. I have marched my children holding onto the wrist, but they were walking, not being dragged.

I may have reacted like the OP, if I know that my children have had enough and are about to cry, get cross etc. I get them out of there straight away, unfortunately I need to get my stuff together first. FWIW, if my children were getting to that situation, my PIL / parents distract the children.

No idea of what to do with FIL, think about it first. However at this stage I wouldn't leave them with your DH and children for the bank holiday weekend especially as your DH froze. Is this the first time it has happened?

mousemole Sun 28-Apr-13 15:03:48

Black lightning I'm sorry to hear about your FIL. It all sounds very familiar. I'm sure you made the right decision.
I do resent Freddies comments about not parenting. I'm a bloody good parent and so is DH. I parented bloody well yesterday. The boys bickered for no longer than a few minutes. We're not talking about hours of relentless squabbling. DH was sorting them out and get them ready to go out to the car but FIL stepped in over him and dragged the boys off.

HappySeven Sun 28-Apr-13 15:58:10

Thank goodness for Freddie! I was wondering if I was going insane -really pleased to see someone on the same wavelength.

outtolunchagain Sun 28-Apr-13 16:05:05

I wonder what the Australian relatives will remember ; will it be two small pre school children getting a little fractious at the end of the day OR will it be a 6 ft red faced supposedly loving grandfather dragging a hysterical two year old the length of a sitting room / diner whilst shouting his head off.

How anyone can think that is an acceptable way to behave for an adult beggars belief.

Hissy Sun 28-Apr-13 16:18:27

FIL did that in front of visisting relatives?

Sheesh, he does that in front of people, imagine what he's like one on one!

MummytoKatie Sun 28-Apr-13 16:31:05

For whoever it was who was implying that parents keeping their children away from grandparents are just doing it through spite and it is the children who lose out:-

I am the adult version of the children in this story. My parents very carefully controlled the access my grandparents had to me and my brother. Looking back on it as an adult I think my parents kept them away from us because they loved us and wanted to protect us. When we did visit I don't remember any particularly happy things happening but I do remember them saying a few things that, as an adult, I don't think was appropriate.

I didn't lose out at all by not really having them in my life. My grandparents lost out because me and db were nice kids who grew up to be nice adults and they missed that. But they should have been nicer to my mum and us and then they would have got to share in that.

seriouscakeeater Sun 28-Apr-13 16:31:32

I would have drove off and left DH there!

ali FIL is an adult, he lost control. He had no excuse to grab anybody's children like this regardless what they were doing.

SwishSwoshSwoosh Sun 28-Apr-13 16:34:37

Mouse mole - I would simply send an email saying you don't want to visit again for the time being. You won't tolerate your kids being manhandled.

Lots of attempts on this thread to excuse the bullying from the GF, but no kids can be perfect 100% of the time and I wouldn't want to take the risk of this happening again over a small bit of bickering.

flippinada Sun 28-Apr-13 16:46:32

Good luck whatever you decide to do mousemole. And yanbu at all. Your FIL

flippinada Sun 28-Apr-13 16:47:25

Pressed send too soon. Your Fil was in the wrong.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sun 28-Apr-13 17:27:01

freddie

you seem to be setting up a false dichotomy between namby pamby do-nothing parenting, and the kind of end-of-tether aggressive action taken by the FIL. There is a middle way. Most of us on here seem familiar with it.

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 28-Apr-13 19:31:16

Jamie

But often parents doing nothing to challenge bad behaviour just translates to the parents not doing what you ( general not you personally) would do.

pointythings Sun 28-Apr-13 20:14:09

Ignore the excusers on this thread. Don't email your FIL. Lay it on the line to your DH - he needs and deserves help.

Children only need grandparents who deserve grandchildren.

happyhev Sun 28-Apr-13 20:37:37

Dragging such a young child across a room is certainly child abuse and you have a responsibility to protect your children from this dreadful man. OP have your children sustained any injuries, it may be worth getting them checked by your GP.

happyhev Sun 28-Apr-13 20:40:12

I would end all contact between the children and FIL I would also tell him that if he ever assaults my child again that I would be reporting him to the police. Your children, particularly the 2yr old could easily have been seriously injured.

edwardsmum11 Sun 28-Apr-13 21:01:39

Yanbu and I wouldn't take my kids near him ever again. Dh is a wet blanket imo.

DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper Sun 28-Apr-13 22:47:32

Parents of small children become inured to their behaviour. What they think is cute and endearing, other people who aren't their parents can find intensely irritating.

I have to ask, Freddie - how old are your children?

I don't know anyone - honestly; anyone - who thinks their own annoying, bickering toddler behaviour after a long day out (especially at the in-laws) is 'cute' and 'endearing'. confused

Only the most deluded PFB type (the type that you read about on here but never actually meet or know in real life) thinks their child's over-tired bickering is 'cute'. Any half-way normal parents finds it as irritating as everyone else. More so because it comes with the added pressure of being the one that has to step in, sort it out, and stop it.

I honestly don't understand the dynamic of some families on this thread. All this 'you shouldn't have let it escalate that far', 'you should have had them under control', 'you should have handled it instead of your DH', 'you should have done X', 'you should have done Y'...

No - the FIL should not have resorted to his clearly age-old bullying tactics towards someone eles's children. He was in the wrong. No-one else. He was. You simply do not behave like that, and the very fact that the OP's grown husband was scared rigid by his behaviour says it all.

Stop excusing the FIL, and blaming the OP, her husband, and their 2YO and 4YO children.

MissLurkalot Mon 29-Apr-13 19:15:38

freddie and notmoon etc.. ...

Unbelievable bullshit from the pair of you!
Condoning such behaviour is pure madness.
This is not a grandparent bashing thread.. This is someone being overly aggressive with somebody else's children.
Grandparent, Uncle, Friend, Teacher or Neighbour... It is disgusting, unacceptable behaviour.
Whoever did that to my children.. It would horrify me, and I would not want to have that individual around my children again...

MissLurkalot Mon 29-Apr-13 19:21:30

OP, I think your next step is to, as you said, cancel their visit this coming weekend. No reason needed.
Then let him stew on that! Like you said, actions speak louder than words.
I feel for your MIL, but it's her choice to accept her husband's behaviour, and if she wants to stick her head in the sand, so be it.. That is her choice.

The op asked. I gave a different perspective. Obviously I'm a horrendous child abuser. I await the knock at the door from the police and social services to take my children away.

Sheesh.

pigletpower Mon 29-Apr-13 19:52:11

Freddie-I think it maybe time to leave this thread[again] and really not come back.You are in the minority here and you are just antagonising people.

I left. I was still being attacked in my absence. And people were being very very nasty. I am entitled to defend myself, surely?

DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper Mon 29-Apr-13 20:22:06

You're not being attacked; your opinion is being attacked. Nobody is calling you an abuser, although you like to keep coming back to thread to state that they are.

If you post an opinion on a public forum, don't be surprised if/when people disagree with it.

Bowlersarm Mon 29-Apr-13 20:32:06

freddie just to let you know you're not alone. I agree with you.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Mon 29-Apr-13 21:43:54

freddie

I don't think you should leave, of course not. If you do really think the way you discipline your children, and what happened in the OP's scenario are exactly the same, then it's no wonder you are getting defensive

Actually, I think you have in mind some annoying do-nothing parents and you are projecting your feelings about them onto the OP

HappySeven Tue 30-Apr-13 09:41:29

Freddie, I was pleased to see you on here. I agree with a lot of what you've said (but thankfully for me, no one attacked my posts!)

What people always forget is that we only ever have the OP's description of what happened and so I'm picturing a child being led out of the room and them pulling against the adult whereas a lot of people here obviously picture a child being dragged quite violently.

We are allowed to disagree. I think it would be wrong to cut off contact and would love to hear what the OP's DH actually says about what happened and how he feels his parents' parenting style affected him. I had a dad who would have physically removed me from the room and I'm fine with it. Maybe that's what is colouring my view of the situation.

I also believe it takes a village to raise a child and so am happy for grandparents and others to discipline (in the meaning of teaching a child right from wrong) when they feel necessary.

I have been told, repeatedly, on this thread that what I would have done to my kids is abuse. Removing them by the wrist from the situation. I've done it plenty of times.

FWIW, I'm sorry if my seeing it differently has upset the OP. I've been upset by the accusations of abuse and bullshit and all the rest that have been thrown at me.

I gave a different perspective. The OP was there. She has a massive problem with what happened. That's her right, and it's entirely up to her to choose not to see FIL again.

But. I'm 45 years old. I have raised 5 children. I have done what someone looking with a negative attitude towards me would have described in the way the OP did. That does not make me a child abuser.

Also, I've also been in situations where my then DH did nothing. Where the day went tits up and everyone ended up shouting. Where I put myself and my kids in a situation that should have been better off avoided and where I then transferred my own guilt at not handling the situation better and being more alert to triggers or where I should have said no in the first place and just not put myself in the situation - transferred that guilt to someone else (my mil in this case) when actually I had to take responsibility and I should have stepped up and left sooner or just not gone in the first place.

StanleyLambchop Tue 30-Apr-13 09:54:28

I also believe it takes a village to raise a child and so am happy for grandparents and others to discipline (in the meaning of teaching a child right from wrong) when they feel necessary.

I love how this is trotted out on MN. Although if the OP was moaning because GP's would not babysit for them, she would be told that the DC's are the parents responsibility and noone else's. The bloody village only seem to turn up to hand out discipline, not help when it is actually needed!

Goldmandra Tue 30-Apr-13 09:57:23

What people always forget is that we only ever have the OP's description of what happened and so I'm picturing a child being led out of the room and them pulling against the adult whereas a lot of people here obviously picture a child being dragged quite violently.

The OP's description

FIL dragging the youngest 2 boys by their wrists across the room. They were hysterical and clearly in pain.

The Your picture and the Op's description simply do not match. The Op tells us that one of the boys complained later that his GF had hurt his arm.

There is no point in responding on a thread if you're going to respond to something different from the situation the OP describes.

It is always possible that an OP might exaggerate or even that the whole post is a fabrication. Everybody knows that. What's the point of deciding one bit isn't true then responding as if you are right.

The OP has asked for opinions about how she should handle the situation she has described, not the one you have described.

I also believe it takes a village to raise a child and so am happy for grandparents and others to discipline (in the meaning of teaching a child right from wrong) when they feel necessary.

Of course the grandparents have a role in teaching children right from wrong. However they do not have any more right than anyone else to use aggression, pain and fear to teach those lessons.

DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper Tue 30-Apr-13 10:00:35

DH is mortified that he didn't step in and feels horrendous as he knows how bad the situation but yes he was frozen by fear and I suspect taken straight back to his childhood.

I've never liked him. He's a big bully who bullies his wife and children and doesn't like me because I stand up to him and always have.

...she [MIL] was in the kitchen. She is lovely but scared of him too.

Interestingly FIL has just been through a lengthy tribunal where a former colleague at a charity he volunteers at accused him of bullying and intimidation.

As for the 'dragging', I really mean ''dragging'. I don't mean a firm grab and march along that I'm sure we have all done. His face was puce with rage and he dragged them forcefully . 2 year old was terrified.

I'm not sure if I'm reading a different thread from some people.

Unless you expect children to - 100% of the time - be seen and not heard, and unless this sort of behaviour was uncharacteristic of the FIL and he lost it in response to prolonged and intense irritation, I cannot understand why anyone is apologising for him, excusing him, normalising what he did, or putting the blame back on the OP, her DH or children.

But then again, I don't recognise this sort of behaviour or 'discipline' in the slightest.

likeitorlumpit Tue 30-Apr-13 10:10:23

things that didnt irritate you because you are used to it can annoy others,i expect your fil was pissed off ,your dh sat there doing nothing and as you were not in the room decided to sort it out,cant believe your dh didnt do or say anything if they were playing up,you say they werent too bad but then you say you were not in the room when it happened.

DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper Tue 30-Apr-13 10:14:22

i expect your fil was pissed off

You think...?

Goldmandra Tue 30-Apr-13 10:16:32

things that didnt irritate you because you are used to it can annoy others,i expect your fil was pissed off ,your dh sat there doing nothing and as you were not in the room decided to sort it out,cant believe your dh didnt do or say anything if they were playing up,you say they werent too bad but then you say you were not in the room when it happened.

I have been irritated and frustrated by other people's children while their parents are either not present or not dealing with it on many, many occasions, as I am sure have most MNers. It is not an excuse to inflict pain and fear on the children, EVER!

Oblomov Tue 30-Apr-13 10:38:26

I feel that the Op has over-reacted.

But that is becuase I have on many many occassions removed, carried, pulled, lugged both ds's out of situations/rooms/parks etc.

I have thrown them over my shoulder, lifted them and caried them horizontally, and yes i have grabbed mine by hands, and wrists and pulled them, dragged them, their feet draggin on the carpet. Even yanked them. And when pulling, I was actually carrying almost all of their weight. So actually itr is more like carrying than dragging.

Not once over the years have the children cried in pain. Not once have their hands or wrists hurt. There have been tears: " this isn't fair", " I always get the blame", " I hate you".

But they are crying becuase they are cross and they think that I am unfairly treating them, re the situation. Whereas i am cross and fed up with asking again and again and again for them to : not xxx/ stop bickerin etc etc.

Why do you think your children were actually crying Op? Are you sure it wasn't the shock rather than actual physical hurt of FIL?

DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper Tue 30-Apr-13 10:46:15

^^ Bizarre that you think there is absolutely zero chance that your chidren are crying from pain.

Bizarre that you think being dragged bodily by the wrist wouldn't cause any pain. confused

I have a 4YO and a 2YO. What am I doing wrong that I've never had cause to drag them bodily by the wrist out of a room...? Or is all this ahead of me?

Oblomov Tue 30-Apr-13 10:58:34

Haven't you ever been carried? Pulled? Dh had to yank me out, by the wrists when I got stuck. No pain.
Why are you assuming that there needs to be pain?

Oblomov Tue 30-Apr-13 11:02:29

"zero chance that your chidren are crying from pain"
thats because, when I have asked them to leave themselves, and they have walked out of the room, on their own, and sat on the bottom of the stairs, for e,g., I still still get the tears and frustration of "this is so unfair". So yes, I do know that they are not crying from physical pain.

Goldmandra Tue 30-Apr-13 11:02:49

Why do you think your children were actually crying Op? Are you sure it wasn't the shock rather than actual physical hurt of FIL?

If it were shock that would be no more acceptable. Behaviour management shouldn't be about shock, fear or pain.

Given that the OP was the only person on the thread who saw the force applied she is best place to judge whether her children were in pain.

Dragging/lifting/pulling children by hands and wrists carries the risk of injuring them. Lots of children are seen in A&E because of these injuries. It's better to hold them by the body to lift them if you need to remove them from a situation.

WhiteBirdBlueSky Tue 30-Apr-13 11:11:37

Oblomov The fact that they cry for other reasons too, and would be crying if you didn't drag them about, doesn't mean you are not also hurting them.

mercibucket Tue 30-Apr-13 12:00:44

I also doubt there was a great deal of pain, more likely shock, but there is a risk of damage and they should be lifted and carried if it is necessary to remove them from a situation or from each other. I've had to do that plenty of times with my hysterical children.

BegoniaBampot Tue 30-Apr-13 12:12:26

yes we are only hearing one side. But, not all Gp's are lovely people. If this GF has a history of being an aggressive bully (op said something about her husband's fear of him) then he can fuck right off and your children come first and if he can't see this and control himself, don't let him see the children.

I wouldn't leave my children alone with my father and minimise any time spent as he is a bully and manipulator.

I sympathise OP but your children have to come first. we live far a way from family and trips home have to be for days at least and it can all be very difficult trying to deal with young children when you can't just up and leave and they can't act perfectly for days on end with people they are not as familiar with and out of their comfort zone.

MissLurkalot Tue 30-Apr-13 13:39:45

I have three kids, soon to be four. I have removed my child from situations if they've been naughty or disruptive. I have taken their hands and troves them. If they resist, I would then swoop them out. I would not drag their entire body weight across a room only holding their wrist.
All of their weight on one wrist? Seriously? The damage it could cause to such immature muscles and liagaments.
I have been in the situation and have calmed it down without inflicting 'pain' on my child.
I would never ever expect an acquaintance, friend or family member physically drag any of my children like that.
My children have been disciplined by family and friends in my absence and on my presence.. I am fine with that and grateful for the support.
But NOT dragging them across the room hysterically.
You keep on harping on about only hearing the one side.. Well, welcome to Mumsnet, that's generally how it works. We're given the facts and we give our opinions..
But that some of you are actually criticising the OP's parenting is ridiculous and rather 'troll like' and like 'hitting someone when they're down'.
You can be constructive and offer an answer in how to deal with it... Maybe even offer to help diffuse the situation... That is your right, your opinion but to slate her patenting is below the belt!

Myinboxisfull Tue 30-Apr-13 13:57:37

I haven't read all the posts but fil sounds like my father. As a result I've never allowed my parents to look after my dc, or left them alone with them. I made this decision before i had my first child after I saw how he behaved towards my niece aged 2.

No point in trying to discuss this with him because he will insist he's in the right and would never consider moderating his behaviour. My mother, who is generally a very nice person, believes that she should always 'stand by' her husband so will not disagree with him.

As a result the've spent very little time with my children.

HappySeven Tue 30-Apr-13 13:58:04

Harping on, Missy? I don't think I harped on. And Goldmandra, the OP's language was emotive which made me less likely to believe what she said as fact. My DD will regularly claim someone has hurt her when no one's been near her so I don't take her child saying that granddad hurt him as fact either. When I said you only have one side I do realise that that is the thing with mumsnet and really we can never hear what the other person has to say which is why I take everything with a pinch of salt. The OP's reaction made me take what she said with a bucket of salt. If I misjudged I'm sorry but to be honest I don't think she came on here to hear another side.

WhiteBirdBlueSky Tue 30-Apr-13 14:18:18

I wouldn't bother trying to change him OP.

GreenEggsAndNichts Tue 30-Apr-13 14:29:23

Love the posts blaming the children. Even in light of the fact that a grown man (her DH) and a grown woman (his wife) are scared of the man, it's obviously just a case of the OP's children being wild and out of control.

I'm not saying the children weren't swinging from chandeliers, but with the information that the DH is scared of the man, it gives some more perspective on the situation. He's intimidating to adults; he must be terrifying to children.

I don't see any reason to return to their house, personally. Obviously it's full of crystal and Ming vases and shouldn't be inhabited by small children. It's one thing to expect three small boys to behave well in an enclosed space, but if you honestly love your breakables that much, you should have them packed away when they visit. Surely it's just common sense.

Good luck with the email, OP.

likeitorlumpit Tue 30-Apr-13 16:57:35

dondraper you are as dramatic as the op , kids were brats got told off for once , had a squinn , its not gonna ruin their life , im sure they wil get over the trauma of grandad telling them off .if the dad had the backbone to tell them off then he wouldnt of had to step in.

greenformica Tue 30-Apr-13 17:37:33

Are you sure they were being dragged and not led? If it was forceful, it is out of order but your DH should have really taken charge. Why didn't he? Did DH just let them continue bickering whilst he sat there? Are your children badly behaved normally? Do you let them get away with it?

WhiteBirdBlueSky Tue 30-Apr-13 17:49:32

It's like some people are ignoring what the OP has posted. The OP has clearly stated why her DH didn't step in and has described the level of naughtiness and force involved. Unless she is delusional then she is NBU.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Tue 30-Apr-13 18:06:59

Agree with your post MissLurkalot

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 30-Apr-13 18:14:21

As I said earlier often the types of people who routinely use force or threat to modify behaviour tend to believe that parents who do things differently are doing nothing. Just because they are not doing what they themselves would.

likeitorlumpit Tue 30-Apr-13 18:21:16

be interesting to hear fil side smile the op version is a bit dramatic,bickering ?or shouting and throwing the toy around , not allowed within 5 metres of a cup ? or a foot,two sides to every story.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Tue 30-Apr-13 18:57:53

Ah yes, sock

I didn't reply earlier. Sorry smile

JamieandtheMagicTorch Tue 30-Apr-13 18:59:38

likit

the two sides are:

2 and 4 year old vs adult man, who has the intelligence and self control to work out how to manage a situation with a 2 and 4 year old without resorting to force.

Not much contest there, I'd say

GreenEggsAndNichts Tue 30-Apr-13 19:02:20

Not to mention, the adult man already has an adult woman who is afraid of him (his wife) and an adult man who is intimidated by him (his son).

He doesn't need small children in his home. He clearly can't handle it. Easily solved.

likeitorlumpit Tue 30-Apr-13 19:06:52

where you there then jamie ? i never knew that , please tell us what happened smile lol everyone tells a story in there own version , fil version, brats were left to run riot , parents to scared to tell them off , what is the world coming to when a grand parent cannot tell them off , bet they really look up to dad without a spine for not sticking up for them if it was all so innocent smile

JamieandtheMagicTorch Tue 30-Apr-13 19:09:02

likeit

but you seem to be making up your own version. I at least have some evidence to go on. OP sounds reasonably sensible to me.

Basically saying she is lying

JamieandtheMagicTorch Tue 30-Apr-13 19:09:37

P.S are you really laughing out loud? It wasn't that funny

likeitorlumpit Tue 30-Apr-13 19:15:02

it was an example of fil version,showing people there are two sides , why believe one , you were not there , you have evidence because a stranger posts her version on here lmfao ,oh please , she asked aibu yes she is you can see the dramatics in the post,but you carry on believing the op with your evidence smile mr gullible

JamieandtheMagicTorch Tue 30-Apr-13 19:18:09

Okaaaaay

<backs away slowly>

WhiteBirdBlueSky Tue 30-Apr-13 19:32:44

likeitorlumpit you're coming across as a bit odd.

likeitorlumpit Tue 30-Apr-13 19:38:24

really ? ok thanks for letting me know that if someone dares not agree with the majority of arse lickers on here they are odd , ill stick with being odd then thanks smile

"arse lickers"
right........

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 30-Apr-13 19:46:13

Its not really just disagreeing with the majority.

You are jumping on posters who are highlighting info in the op ( customary practice on a forum) and obviously accusing the op of being a liar and posters who believe her gullible ( troll hunting and goady)

MissLurkalot Tue 30-Apr-13 19:53:29

likeitorlumpit

I hear what you say that DH sat back did nothing and GF got pissed off and dealt with the kids. I get it. (Don't agree with it like you though.)

Your level of acceptable force is lower than some other Mumsnetters.
We all have different tolerance levels and all discipline our own children differently ... I get it.

But you're not coming across well on here. It's like you think the kids 'had it coming.'

I know it's not nice when your opinion is in the minority and you feel pushed into the corner... But, you are coming across a bit weird now, sorry.

persimmon Tue 30-Apr-13 19:57:08

My FIL can be a little like this. For a while my SIL's kids refused to go to his house. We stay there a couple of times a year and I'm on tenterhooks that he will explode at DS. If he did I would be livid. My DH is also scared of his dad but i do think he'd stick up for DS. It's a horrible feeling though, completely spoils the visits for me.

likeitorlumpit Tue 30-Apr-13 20:13:13

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

MissLurkalot Tue 30-Apr-13 20:19:24

Are you new to Mumsnet?

outtolunchagain Tue 30-Apr-13 20:28:23

The thing is we have been asked to comment on the version presented by the OP .There is no other version available other than random speculation so we take the version presented and comment on the appropriateness or otherwise .

FWIW I would never expect an adult to lose his temper in public like this it shows a lack of control. Of course people get irritated and he may have not been unreasonable in being irritated , but if he did act as described ( at currently that is the situation the OP is asking for our opinion on) then his reaction was out of proportion , and also very ill mannered.I expect adults to exercise control at all times except in very exceptional circumstances

DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper Tue 30-Apr-13 20:38:10

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 30-Apr-13 20:40:28

As I said goady

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