Why don't they just accept that motorbikes are deathtraps and campaign against people riding them?

(258 Posts)
GoshAnneGorilla Fri 26-Apr-13 17:27:59

Instead of spending so much time and money going on at car drivers, wouldn't it be better to discourage people from using motorbikes in the first place?

Sparklingbrook Fri 26-Apr-13 17:31:05

Mmmmm. They scare me to death but some people seem to like them.

Tee2072 Fri 26-Apr-13 17:32:18

Because we don't live in a dictatorship and people are allowed to risk their lives any way they like.

DesperatelySeekingSedatives Fri 26-Apr-13 17:33:27

YABU

GoshAnneGorilla Fri 26-Apr-13 17:36:41

Tee - So why are seatbelts, speed limits and MOTs mandatory then?

Sparklingbrook Fri 26-Apr-13 17:37:42

I think it's odd that Learner motorbike folk can go out alone. How does that all work?

BackforGood Fri 26-Apr-13 17:39:01

Surely crash helmets are the equivalent of seatbelts - not preventing you from using them. You know, cars kill quite a lot of people each year, and so do lorries, but they are also very, very useful, as motorbikes are.

katedan Fri 26-Apr-13 17:40:05

I sort of agree with OP. There is a lot of money spent campaigning for drivers to notice motorcyclists and to take care around them however it is fair to say most motorcyclists ride too fast ( I think that is the thrill of them) and if motorists do not see them it is often because they come out of nowhere. I am not sure a total ban is the answer as you will push it underground and make it even more dangerous however I think there should be stricter laws for motorcyclists and more stringent tests for them to be able to pass their test.

Sparklingbrook Fri 26-Apr-13 17:42:03

Yes, I never seem to see a motorbike pootling along at the speed limit funnily enough.

saycheeeeeese Fri 26-Apr-13 17:42:09

I have a friend who is a traffic policeman, he says that if people could see what he has had to see in terms of motorbike accidents then no one would ride one.

But the same could be said for cars they are death traps too.

Tee2072 Fri 26-Apr-13 17:42:13

Because a bunch of sissy pants decided we needed them.

I honestly do feel that way. If we live in a free society, then we should be free to die in a way of our own choosing.

I also feel that way about car seats. I have no problem with them being available. I have a problem with them being the law. It's infantilising the human race to make laws about how we have to keep ourselves safe. Give us the information and the product, let us decide for ourselves.

But I'm an anarchist at heart and always have been.

SoupDragon Fri 26-Apr-13 17:42:16

What would be useful would be some kind of campaign to educate the twats on motorbikes who think a) they are invincible or b) the speed limits do not apply to them

SoupDragon Fri 26-Apr-13 17:43:04

we should be free to die in a way of our own choosing.

Unless that forces pain and suffering onto someone else.

SoupDragon Fri 26-Apr-13 17:44:20

I also feel that way about car seats. I have no problem with them being available. I have a problem with them being the law. It's infantilising the human race to make laws about how we have to keep ourselves safe. Give us the information and the product, let us decide for ourselves.

But in the case of car seat, you aren't deciding for yourself, you are deciding for a baby. The laws protect the baby, not you.

Tee2072 Fri 26-Apr-13 17:44:26

Yes, well, that's the problem with most things. There's always someone else involved whether you want there to be or not.

And before someone says 'well why should the NHS pay?'

Well why should they pay if you smoke? Or drink to excess? Or have a preventable lifestyle disease?

Same thing.

Tee2072 Fri 26-Apr-13 17:44:52

Isn't it my job to protect my baby? Why does the government get to decide the best way to protect my baby?

Sparklingbrook Fri 26-Apr-13 17:45:18

I think there is something sinister about people in motorbike helmets. they are unrecognisable and faceless (for want of a better word).

Tee2072 Fri 26-Apr-13 17:46:39

That's why all banks have signs in NI telling them to remove them, Sparkling. Never seen that anywhere else!

ChunkyPickle Fri 26-Apr-13 17:47:03

I think you just aren't noticing the riders who do happily pootle around at the speed limit - I know that I used to...

I don't think you can say that because drivers don't want to take the care to notice them, they should be banned - if that were a valid reason, then pushbikes, kids scooters and pedestrians should also be banned, as should any private car with an engine over 1l, sharp bends in the road, and animals that run out.

Motorbikes are enjoyable, take up less roadspace and parking, and are very practical for single people commuting, because a few people are idiots, and because they are more dangerous than a car (perhaps we should also all be forced to drive volvos?) doesn't mean they should be banned

KobayashiMaru Fri 26-Apr-13 17:47:28

They get to decide because of all the idiots who don't decide properly for their children, thats why. Sometimes the governments job is to protect your child from you

Smudging Fri 26-Apr-13 17:48:20

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SoupDragon Fri 26-Apr-13 17:48:22

That's why all banks have signs in NI telling them to remove them, Sparkling. Never seen that anywhere else!

Yes, there are "no helmet" signs are in English banks too.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

alienbanana Fri 26-Apr-13 17:48:35

Why don't we ban cyclists while we're at it. They're all cunts too after all.

hmm

KansasCityOctopus Fri 26-Apr-13 17:48:37

because its not usually the bikers that kill themselves, its usually the car drivers that hit them.

Should we ban cars because they're death traps when lorries or buses hit them?

Should we be banning mini buses because they're death traps when lorries hit them?

If everyone actually followed their code and looked for bikes there wouldnt be so many accidents.

BarredfromhavingStella Fri 26-Apr-13 17:49:13

Don't be so ridiculous, YABVU.

Scaredycat3000 Fri 26-Apr-13 17:49:17

I was hit by a car whilst stationary at traffic lights, I was hit a car as it just came out of a side road without stopping, I was hit (and hospitalised) at a junction by a car when it was my right of way. Public transport wasn't running for the time I needed to get to work, I wouldn't have been able to park a car at my place of work. I couldn't have cycled the distance to work. Motorbike's aren't death traps, people who don't drive safely are death traps.

I vote we ban idiots from the road.

Sparkling You have to take a CBT (compulsory basic training) So a professional course before you can go on the road. Unlike a car who can get in a car with anyone who has a licence, even if that was 50 years ago when getting a licence was much easier!

saintmerryweather Fri 26-Apr-13 17:50:12

If i see a motorbike behind me i automatically assume the rider is going to do something bloody stupid

biscuit

Is this a real Fred?

Wannabestepfordwife Fri 26-Apr-13 17:50:33

Yabvvvvvu my dp was hit seriously at 17 by a woman talking on her phone not paying attention to where she was going. Dp's work mate currently has a lacerated liver and 3 broken veterbrae due to an idiot driver undercutting another driver on motorway and hitting him.

Don't get me wrong there are some twats on motorbikes but there are some absolute twat drivers

VerySmallSqueak Fri 26-Apr-13 17:50:43

There are plenty of perfectly sensible bikers.

If a car driver is likely to hit a motorcyclist through careless driving then surely a pedal cyclist is also in danger- so it is worth educating car drivers unless you intend to ban pushbikes too.

Smudging Fri 26-Apr-13 17:51:08

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Wannabestepfordwife Fri 26-Apr-13 17:52:28

Also dp would be out of a job as would every other motorbike mechanic in the country Honda in slough would probably relocate so basically loads of people should lose their jobs because you don't like motorbikes

SoupDragon Fri 26-Apr-13 17:53:05

If everyone actually followed their code and looked for bikes there wouldnt be so many accidents.

And if every biker followed their code and the laws of the road there wuld be fewer still.

There are dangerous idiots on every mode of transport. However, it seems that car drivers are the only ones with the finger of blame pointed at them.

VinegarDrinker Fri 26-Apr-13 17:53:26

How about the revolutionary idea instead of just enforcing the rules of the road for all road users? Crazy, I know.

aldiwhore Fri 26-Apr-13 17:55:17

Motorbikes are NOT dangerous in themselves. Stupid car drivers lost in their own little worlds are the ones that are usually the dangers.

The world would be a better place if we just banned stupid people.

GoblinGranny Fri 26-Apr-13 17:55:52

Bikers are free to take part in a dangerous activity, otherwise you are going to end up banning all sorts of things that are risky choices. Many accidents are caused by poor driving, and the bikers are the ones that die. Likewise cyclists.

Do you want the entire organ donor scheme to grind to a halt?
I think they should wear OD stickers on their helmets.

SoupDragon Fri 26-Apr-13 17:56:10

I remember starting a thread asking "AIBU to think motor cyclists should follow the same rules of the road as everyone else" after I'd seen a number of them separately speeding along far faster than the cars. I was told that I was unreasonable as "bikers use the road differently" or some such guff.

FoundAChopinLizt Fri 26-Apr-13 17:56:15

I worked in neuro ITU for a while and it was horrific to see a steady stream of young men who had come off bikes. In my view all drivers should have to watch a short film (at the theory part of the driving test) of patients and their families talking about recovery from these life changing injuries, together with some simulated footage of these collisions.

When we went to antenatal class there was a shocking film of a simulated car crash showing what happens to an unrestrained child in a collision. I never ever let them go for the shortest journey in the wrong seat.

HiggsBoson Fri 26-Apr-13 17:57:31

I lost my dearest friend to a motorbike accident sad

I don't think they can be outlawed as a means of transport though!

GoshAnneGorilla Fri 26-Apr-13 17:57:37

Babylon - yes it is real, thanks for the yummy biscuit.

People need to walk from place to place - hence we cannot ban pedestrians.

As for cyclists, I agree that cycling provision is woeful in this country, it's a shame we can't be more like the Netherlands: www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBdf9jYj7o

Also, saying "Well 'x' is dangerous too doesn't make motorbikes any less dangerous".

Finally, yes, even if you are a good motorbiker, if you get in an accident, you run a far greater risk of injury or death then if you were in a car.

KansasCityOctopus Fri 26-Apr-13 17:59:13

absolutely Soup, i know my fair share of idiot bikers, and being part of a biking club/social group, i have also lost a lot of friends and witnessed some horrific accidents.

By far and away, cars have been the prime cause of most of them, simply because the drivers dont look, and have no consideration of bikers on the road.

I honestly think that how to drive around motorbikes ought to become part of the test, and that all car drivers ought to made to spend an hour on a motorbike to appreciate how much of a danger car drivers can be to them.

GoshAnneGorilla Fri 26-Apr-13 17:59:56

*Also, saying "Well 'x' is dangerous too", doesn't make motorbikes any less dangerous.

VinegarDrinker Fri 26-Apr-13 18:00:01

Your duty of care on the road is directly related to how much damage you can do with your vehicle imho. So whilst everyone should obey the law, of course, someone driving a HGV has a huge moral obligation not to talk on their phone as well as the legal one, simply due to the catastrophic effects of it.

Likewise car drivers as opposed to pedestrians. I do think everyone has a particular duty to be aware of those road users more vulnerable than themselves.

TheFallenNinja Fri 26-Apr-13 18:00:05

Despair. Utter despair.

saycheeeeeese Fri 26-Apr-13 18:00:34

Not wearing a seat belt isn't just a risk to you it can kill other people in the car even if they are wearing theirs.

Sparklingbrook Fri 26-Apr-13 18:00:57

When I see a motorbike loom up behind me I always think 'oh noooo what are they going to do?'. All that nipping in and out at high speed and racing to the front at the lights. sad

VinegarDrinker Fri 26-Apr-13 18:03:54

"Racing to the front at lights" is for their own safety - if you are out in front of a car it is a lot harder to get hit than sitting alongside one. Same for cyclists.

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Fri 26-Apr-13 18:04:38

biscuit

Idiot.

Sparklingbrook Fri 26-Apr-13 18:05:08

Why can't they wait in the traffic queue behind the car rather than next to it?

ChunkyPickle Fri 26-Apr-13 18:10:38

'I think there is something sinister about people in motorbike helmets. they are unrecognisable and faceless (for want of a better word)'

I feel that way about sunglasses... bikers only wear the helmet when on the bike (or lazy, or cold, or it's raining and they're just nipping somewhere and can't be bothered to take it off) - think about whether you'd be comfortable saying that about other people who cover their faces?

As to bikes going faster than the traffic - do you mean filtering? Like when the cars are all stopped and bikes can still move, so they do? You know I do know people who've had accidents doing that, and without fail, it's been a car driver changing lanes without looking or signalling.

Did you know that bikers take a different theory test? I don't understand why. If it's important for a biker to know, then it's important for a car driver to know

Wylye Fri 26-Apr-13 18:10:51

YABU. Car driver's complacency is a major cause of all road accidents. The safety campaigns encouraging drivers to look out for bikes are just that - reminding drivers to pay attention. So many of us just cruise along on autopilot.

I have had a few bikes in the past, and now I have DS I won't again - due to the risk from other road users.

But - there are two types of bikers; idiots and normal people. Same as in every other walk of life.

VinegarDrinker Fri 26-Apr-13 18:12:02

Because then they would take up as much space on the road as cars.

Would you really like all motorbikes and cycles to queue one behind each other like cars? Think of the traffic!*

(* as a cyclist I do actually do this if I predict I don't safely have time to get to the front. Tends to make drivers irate as they apparently think I should be cycling in the gutter)

LadyIsabellaWrotham Fri 26-Apr-13 18:12:26

Motorbikes are not dangerous just because of car drivers, although poor car/lorry driving is a huge factor. Motorbikes are an intrinsically dangerous means of transport, and significant numbers of people die in bike vs tree incidents with no other vehicle involved.

It's mostly only their own lives they're risking, which is why we accept the high risks involved and don't clamp down like we do for other road risks (although a friend of mine was killed on a pedestrian crossing by a motorbike).

Wylye Fri 26-Apr-13 18:12:42

Chunky - it's because there are risks to bike users that don't affect car drivers, like watching out for small patches of grit or oil, or not riding on road marking as they can cause you to slip.

GoshAnneGorilla Fri 26-Apr-13 18:14:10

Lady - Exactly!

Wannabestepfordwife Fri 26-Apr-13 18:16:27

So car drivers never crash into trees or stationary objects?

ChunkyPickle Fri 26-Apr-13 18:16:35

I think that car drivers should know those things though! I think they should be aware that if a bike is going around a corner that they might adjust their position to avoid a drain cover etc.

I took both tests due to various stupidities with the order I learned to drive/took tests to drive vehicles, and I don't remember any of the questions being about that - they were about things like road positioning, what to look out for - and I seem to remember having to answer questions in the bike on about seatbelt safety...

Sparklingbrook Fri 26-Apr-13 18:17:33

I don't know Chunky, in a helmet you don't know whether they are male or female/young or old so it kind of makes them more anonymous. It is definitely the helmet-hence them having to be taken off in banks/petrol stations. (I was working in a bank when it got raided and they were wearing mirrored sunglasses so maybe that's relevant I don't know)

The instance I was thinking of was two lanes of traffic at lights. One lane going right, one straight on. Motorbike goes straight down the middle between the two queues and positions himself between the front two cars. confused

siezethenight Fri 26-Apr-13 18:19:05

Bikers are mostly polite, well riding souls actually. You always get a thumbs up around here if you pull closer into the curb so they can overtake.

Think on this - About 3 weeks ago two police cars were having a race up a duel carriageway overtaking and undertaking each other - no blue lights flashing - and went around the roundabout 4 times before gunning off up the next duel carriageway and at the end of that one, they both cut up the cars queuing there so they could get onto the M4 and carry on...
One rule for some...

Bikers who are responsible riders? Nothing wrong with them. There are very bad car drivers out there - see the above!

Nothing more poignant than seeing a whole lot of bikers show up for a bikers funeral - one chap died here (natural causes) and all the bikers turned out for the funeral and followed the hearse down the road - honestly, it was just an amazing sight...

Iactuallydothinkso Fri 26-Apr-13 18:19:41

Oh I know! It's because motorbikes are some people's version of fun! Yes! Fun!

I ride mine safer in the knowledge that no 4 or more wheeled drivers have any knowledge I'm there and will probably kill me.

We filter because we can. Don't have to be stuck in the traffic at all. And do you know that people deliberately block us in because they're pissed off we can do it and they can't.

Yes I'll go to the front of a queue because it is safer. Yes, I'll overtake because it can be safer.

Ill also stick to the speed limits.

There are shit bikers and shit drivers.

You only think we're going fast sometimes because we're loud and small.

I have 3 beautiful children so look out for me smile

GoshAnneGorilla Fri 26-Apr-13 18:19:58

Wannabe - but the car will protect you far more than a motorbike will and thus your chances of injury or death are lower. This is fairly obvious.

LynetteScavo Fri 26-Apr-13 18:21:42

Well, I'm doing my bit by brainwashing my DC to believe motorbikes are the work of the devil.

I tried it with sweets, and ended up with one DC who will never eat the things, and another who can't get enough. hmm

I do think the way some people ride motorbikes is very unfair on car drivers. They may be risking their own lives, but what about the car driver involved in the accident?

ChunkyPickle Fri 26-Apr-13 18:21:54

You know even less if someone's wearing a burka... I find you can make a pretty good guess at at least the sex of someone if they're in leathers!

Bikers do that because getting out in front is always safer. If the biker was going right they'd likely actually have positioned themselves in front of the right hand lane car, or slot in behind the first car. A bike can generally get off the line faster than a car because they are light. It's in the highway code that bikes can do that (if safe) so it's not like it should be a shock to anyone when they do.

Sparklingbrook Fri 26-Apr-13 18:21:57

Seems the drivers are terrified of what the bikers are going to do and vice versa. confused

maddening Fri 26-Apr-13 18:22:00

I do think there should be a minimum age for passengers on motorbikes - currently the only guidelines are that they can wear a hhelmet, put their feet on bit sticking out (can't remember name) and take instructions from the rider - have seen v young passengers on motorcycles and feel it really isn't safe.

YesIamYourSisterInLaw Fri 26-Apr-13 18:22:08

*I honestly do feel that way. If we live in a free society, then we should be free to die in a way of our own choosing.

I also feel that way about car seats. I have no problem with them being available. I have a problem with them being the law. It's infantilising the human race to make laws about how we have to keep ourselves safe. Give us the information and the product, let us decide for ourselves.

Isn't it my job to protect my baby? Why does the government get to decide the best way to protect my baby?*

Jesus Christ are you for real? Because not every woman that is able to spread her legs should then get to play god with that child's life it is their life not yours, they aren't your property to do with as you wish Ffs
Not using a car seat is just pure stupidity and selfishness.

VinegarDrinker Fri 26-Apr-13 18:23:02

So we should all surround ourselves with metal shells to protect ourselves? Or we could strive to look out for each other and behave like decent human beings, perhaps?

trixymalixy Fri 26-Apr-13 18:23:55

My in laws live in the lake district. The bikers round there take ridiculous chances. They treat the roads like a racetrack with no thought for other road users. I remember us coming round a blind bend, a bus was on the other side of the road.

Then we saw a guy in a motorbike overtaking the bus on the blind bend. We just missed him only to find another idiot on a motorbike overtaking the bus behind him. We ended up in the ditch to avoid him. How he didn't end up on the front of our bonnet I really don't know. Fucking idiots, neither of them stopped.

I really hope they both got such a shock that they never did anything do stupid again. It gave us such a shock I thought DH was having a heart attack.

LadyIsabellaWrotham Fri 26-Apr-13 18:24:40

They do wanna, but a) the accidents are far more survivable for obvious reasons and b) it's much easier to lose control of a bike, either due to sub-optimal road surfaces or simply from overdoing the speed.

Gwynedd police did an eye opening campaign a while ago trying to get their biker deaths down, and far too many deaths happened on beautiful Sunday afternoons with perfect weather and visibility, and no other vehicles in sight.

However I would never deny that badly driven lorries aren't a serious hazard to all and sundry, and motorbike/cycle commuting has a big role to play in reducing congestion and pollution.

Sparklingbrook Fri 26-Apr-13 18:25:17

A burka? Don't know where you are going with that Chunky. confused

Have no idea where the biker in question was going-no indication so assume straight on.

Anyway, I will continue to look out for bikes as the huge yellow signs on the dual carriageway tell me to, and give them a wide berth and expect the unexpected.

VinegarDrinker Fri 26-Apr-13 18:25:44

Filtering is perfectly legal, acceptable and actually strongly encouraged by cycling trainers. I assume it's the same for motorbikes. If it pisses you off that they are jumping the queue then get a bike wink

Wannabestepfordwife Fri 26-Apr-13 18:26:00

gosh I'm fully aware of that but cars do also crash into stationary objects and the drivers do injure themselves seriously injure themselves

I used to work in insurance and non British national drivers had a high incident rate of crashing by not following roundabout etiquette correctly at least 3 claims in a small office per week. Would I ever suggest non British nationals should not be allowed to taxi drive- would I hell

sleeplessbunny Fri 26-Apr-13 18:26:13

Why are drivers in the UK so ignorant about bikers? This thread is a case in point. I am so shock I'm not sure where to start.

What do car drivers have to fear from bikes anyway? Much much less than bikers have to fear from drivers.

And cyclists are even more vulnerable.

I think it should be mandatory for every car driver to do CBT (compulsory basic training for bikers) to make them at least a little more aware of the challenges and vulnerability of someone on 2 wheels.

Car drivers zooming about in their protective metal cages are often blissfully unaware of the lethality they wield. You don't get the same false sense of security on a bike.

DressMe Fri 26-Apr-13 18:26:31

Have my very first biscuit.

I've only been riding 4 years. I rarely break the speed limit (and much less than I do in my car) and am forever dodging idiot car drivers. Not all bikers 'race around'. I'm quite happy to potter!

Riding a bike has also made me a much better car driver.

EccentricElastic Fri 26-Apr-13 18:28:16

sparklingBrook see link here.
https://www.gov.uk/ride-motorcycle-moped/overview

also your quote '^I think there is something sinister about people in motorbike helmets. they are unrecognisable and faceless (for want of a better word)^. Should you include in that comment anyone whose face is covered, such as those who wear burkas? Because it's the covered face you're objecting to and not the method by which it is covered?
When I was thrown off my motorbike due to a speeding car driver (on my side of the road) forcing me over the parapet of a bridge and into the river below, my crash helmet saved my life when I hit the rocks. They are a safety feature, just as a seat belt in a car is.

Not all bikers are twats, or break the speed limit, and neither are car/lorry/van drivers etc. To make such a comment is simply an ill informed sweeping generalisation.

Oh, and how often do we see a biker on his mobile phone whilst riding?

ChunkyPickle Fri 26-Apr-13 18:29:31

Sparkling - you said bikers in helmets were sinister because you could only see their eyes and elaborated that you couldn't tell if they were male or female, young or old, I said that was a bit of a strange thing to say, and you would be unlikely to feel comfortable using the same description for someone in a burka.

But yes, driving and riding defensively is what we all need to do, rather than travelling around in our own little bubbles.

Sparklingbrook Fri 26-Apr-13 18:29:33

It doesn't piss me off they go to the front of the queue. It's not a race as far as I am aware vinegar. grin

VinegarDrinker Fri 26-Apr-13 18:30:32

True, Dress - it's also a fact that most cyclists/motorcyclists are also car drivers, so have a good understanding of that POV, while the opposite is definitely not true.

Sparklingbrook Fri 26-Apr-13 18:31:27

Bye all, I am about to be called racist on a thread about motorbikes. Enjoy the debate. <sigh>

VinegarDrinker Fri 26-Apr-13 18:31:29

Why does it bother you then sparkling ?

ChunkyPickle Fri 26-Apr-13 18:32:29

Not racist, just pointing out that perhaps you need to think about why you feel that way.

bikist if anything smile

expatinscotland Fri 26-Apr-13 18:33:21

YABU

DressMe Fri 26-Apr-13 18:34:41

Yup. After driving a car for years, I feel very vulnerable on my motorbike and ride defensively. I wish car drivers would do the same. Massively agree with Sleepless - People would be much better car drivers if they'd done their CBT and rode a bike.

thebody Fri 26-Apr-13 18:37:55

Soooo funny at sparkling being a racist!! It's Friday so assume some posters are pissed otherwise don't be so freak in daft.

Sparkling is one if our sensible ones.

Op, I hate all vehicles as dd was so badly injured in one but you could as easily break your neck in a trampoline.

Love to ban them.

ChunkyPickle Fri 26-Apr-13 18:40:05

Funny you should say that thebody - my MIL is convinced that trampolines should be banned for exactly that reason.

AmiorEzzy Fri 26-Apr-13 18:41:27

My dads best friend was killed on a motor bike accident

EccentricElastic Fri 26-Apr-13 18:42:51

sparkling
as far as I can see, no one pointed the word 'racist' anywhere. The word 'burka' was used simply as another example of face covering.

JeewizzJen Fri 26-Apr-13 18:43:17

YABVU. Totally agree with DressMe and Sleepless.

I actually raced a motorbike (on racetracks) for a few years, and I still only ever potter about when riding on the road; it wasn't about the speed, it was a convenient mode of transport, probably much like most people's cars. It seems that all bikers get a bad name for the minority bad riders, but this doesn't seem to happen with bad car drivers. There are idiots all over the road, they are certainly not all bikers.

sleeplessbunny Fri 26-Apr-13 18:43:20

"motorcycles are dangerous" confused

No, as someone said upthread, stupid people are the danger, let's ban them instead. Sometimes stupid people ride bikes. More often, they drive cars.

How often does a biker kill someone other than themselves? (Personally I am not particularly bothered by people who do this. It's up to them really)

How often does a car driver kill an innocent?

LessMissAbs Fri 26-Apr-13 18:45:04

According to local newspapers, its the roads which are dangerous whenever a boy racer skids off one and crashes into a wall/tree/lamppost, killing himself and his passenger.

So on that basis, we should ban roads. Damned dangerous things...

overprotection Fri 26-Apr-13 18:47:10

I love bikers, every person on a motorbike is one less car causing congestion on the roads.

Wouldn't do it myself though, too many gormless idiots in cars, not to mention idiots who seem to think bikers filtering are "getting one over on them" and try to block them.

beitou Fri 26-Apr-13 18:48:43

I rode motorbikes from my late teen to early 40s. Progressed from old British oil fields to modern Japanese. I rode round London and many Asian cities on them loved virtually every minute and never the danger a thought. I have known several friends who were killed riding, but it didn't put me off.

Then I joined the Ambulance Service. I have told my children I will pay for driving lessons, buy their first car and pay their insurance, tax etc to try to stop them riding them. I have been to a lot of people killed outright and just as bad, people with horrible life changing injuries. The vast majority of bike accidents I have attended have been youngish men, 20-30s and most of them around 70% have been caused by a car driver. The accidents where it was the bike riders fault have usually been caused excessive speed. I now hate motorbikes, but I don't want to ban them, just ban my kids from riding them.

BikeWife Fri 26-Apr-13 18:48:45

It's a massive generalisation to make that all motorbike riders are irresponsible and speed around like loons. Just like we get good and bad car drivers, we get good and bad motorbike drivers, who take risks.

Is it really that hard to be aware of bikers? It doesn't take much effort to keep your distance and check for them when we're driving.

My husband is an ex bike rider now. He had 3 crashes, each increasing in severity each time. Each time, the accident was caused by a car driver not paying attention. One pulling out at a T junction on him. One jumping a red light and hitting him. One turning into the road without noticing him. I totally agree with the campaigns to raise awareness of motorbike riders.

VinegarDrinker Fri 26-Apr-13 18:48:59

Yes I am interested in why filtering is seen as a Bad Thing if not jealousy?

sleeplessbunny Fri 26-Apr-13 18:52:59

Just re read the OP. Basically you want to ban motorbikes so that car drivers can behave like fuckwits without worrying about killing a biker?

I am so angry i have to go and have a lie down.

ivykaty44 Fri 26-Apr-13 19:02:11

More people are killed inside motorcars each year in the Uk than motorbikes - so why not ban cars as they are death traps and this would save in the region of 6000 lives per year

that is 500 people every month

125 death trap deaths every week

massive savings of lives

bann the motor car as it is the most dangerous form of travel

then people could get round much quicker on buses, trains, cycles, and motorbikes with side cars

WellJustCallHimDave Fri 26-Apr-13 19:02:32

What a bizarre OP. Are you that bad a driver, GoshAnneGorilla, that you want to call for a ban on bikes?

EasilyBored Fri 26-Apr-13 19:05:39

I don't want yo ban them, but I want to ban black motorbike jackets and helmets. It is very hard to see bikes sometimes, even when you are paying attention.

Over my cold dead body will my son ever be riding one either. You are just so unprotected, and I don't want anyone I love travelling at such high speeds without a decent chunk of metal between them and any outside forces.

overprotection Fri 26-Apr-13 19:06:21

Actually ivykaty you might be on to something, I've always thought it would be so much quicker to get around if everybody biked (either bicycle or motorbike). No congestion, just get straight to your destination. Would also be far safer and accidents would generally be self inflicted due to poor riding rather than caused by inept car drivers.

I drive much more defensively in my car BECAUSE I have a motorbike

YABVVVVVU

Lots of things MIGHT kill you. They aren't all banned. Thank goodness <lights fag, contemplates leathers, and opens wine instead>

BikeWife Fri 26-Apr-13 19:11:45

It used to take DH 30 mins to get to work (filtering through the city traffic), £20 petrol a week and £15 road tax a year. In a car it now takes 45 minutes at best, approx £50 petrol a week and £120 road tax a year. His motorbike was really practical for us. It was some other road users that made it impossible in the end.

Yes motorbike riders need to be sensible though. I don't agree with dark helmets and protective clothing. My husband purposely bought a white jacket with reflective bits but was STILL not seen 3 times!

It does make me very mad when I see motorbike riders riding around with just a pair of jeans and a t shirt on. My husband's protective clothing (along with his helmet) saved his life in his last accident.

GoshAnneGorilla Fri 26-Apr-13 19:14:44

Ivy - but vastly more people drive cars then motor bikes, so of course the number of car drivers killed or injured is going to be higher.

A quick google would bring up some government figures think.direct.gov.uk/motorcycles.html

These figures show that: "Injuries to motorcyclists are out of proportion to their presence on our roads. Motorcyclists are just 1% of total road traffic, but account for 19% of all road user deaths."

That's just deaths.

When we include serious injuries, "Motorcyclists are 75 times more likely to be killed or seriously injured (KSI) in serious or fatal crashes than car drivers when casualty rates are compared per billion miles travelled."

Sleepless - Are you really, truly serious?

Well - I would just like to see people dead or with horrific injuries. Fewer people riding motorbikes would achieve that aim.

GoshAnneGorilla Fri 26-Apr-13 19:15:25

*Well - I would just like to see FEWER people dead or with horrific injuries. Fewer people riding motorbikes would achieve that aim.

LadyIsabellaWrotham Fri 26-Apr-13 19:15:47

Two thousand Ivy, not six. And yes it does make a difference, that's thousands of people every year saved by the efforts of the nanny state in order to keep our roads among the safest in the world.

So would making car drivers do a day on a bike so they take some fucking care And pay attention....

I'd like to see fewer people posting twatty nanny granny threads on the Internet. I think I'll campaign for the government to ban twatty threads I don't like.

BikeWife Fri 26-Apr-13 19:17:23

*Well - I would just like to see FEWER people dead or with horrific injuries. Fewer people riding motorbikes would achieve that aim.

---

So would more car drivers paying better attention to motorbikes on the roads.

WMittens Fri 26-Apr-13 19:22:28

Sparklingbrook

Yes, I never seem to see a motorbike pootling along at the speed limit funnily enough.

Well, duh. If they're going in the same direction and travelling at the same speed as you, you never catch up with them/they never catch up with you; if they're going in the opposite direction you have no idea how fast they are going.

ParadiseChick Fri 26-Apr-13 19:25:34

They don't come out of nowhere, they come from somewhere. If that somewhere looks like nowhere then you're not looking in your mirror enough.

Chiggers Fri 26-Apr-13 19:28:17

All the bikers I know, are the more careful car drivers because they know what it's like to feel more vulnerable on the roads and look out for their own when driving their cars.

I used to own a bike and a car driver, who wasn't looking where they were going, slammed into the back of my bike and pushed me into the path of an oncoming car, on the roundabout I had stopped at. Luckily I saw it coming in my wing mirror and braced for impact. The driver then tried to cover her ass when speaking to cops, but luckily there were a few witnesses who verified my story and the driver was arrested for dangerous driving. It turned out that she was on her mobile when she slammed into me, but I didn't see that, I just saw her turning to see what was coming round the roundabout.

Anyway, I got up and walked away unscathed, but the driver's face was a picture and reminded me of the mask in Scream grin. It was like this shock. I was brokenhearted about my bike though as it was off the road for 3 weeks and I, personally, needed to put it through MOT so that I was sure it was deemed safe to be on the road.

TheFallenNinja Fri 26-Apr-13 19:30:33

If your not a rider you will not understand.

WMittens Fri 26-Apr-13 19:30:44

When we include serious injuries, "Motorcyclists are 75 times more likely to be killed or seriously injured (KSI) in serious or fatal crashes than car drivers when casualty rates are compared per billion miles travelled."

Did you consider that some people like to ride because it's dangerous? It's fun and exhilarating. Some people jump off a bridge with a rope round their ankles, others jump out of a perfectly good plane tied to a sheet.

BikeWife Fri 26-Apr-13 19:30:51

Glad you had witnesses to agree with your version of events Chiggers. DH's second accident, the driver tried to say he didn't see him as he didn't have his lights on. The lights come on automatically when the engine was switched on. Nice try though.

pinkmagic1 Fri 26-Apr-13 19:32:40

I havnt got time to read the whole thread but I do agree that many motorcycle accidents are caused by twatish car drivers. DH has a motorbike and has had had 2 accidents both caused by drivers pulling out of side roads directly in front of him. You get some idiotic motorcyclists just the same as you get idiotic car drivers, van drivers, cyclists etc. Don't tar eveyone with the same brush.

WMittens Fri 26-Apr-13 19:32:45

It turned out that she was on her mobile when she slammed into me,

It's shocking the number of people I see trying to navigate roundabouts and junctions with one hand on the side of their head.

biker here.

you are more exposed on a bike. unfortunately in the neuro-disability clinic near me, 70% of the patients are bikers.

when you get on a bike you accept the risks: the idiots, the state of the road, the weather, the cow pat etc.

OhLori Fri 26-Apr-13 19:37:06

Bikes often speed up so fast to overtake that you don't see them in your mirror, they just loom out of nowhere. They come so close to the car that even moving 2 inches to the right would knock them over - and you have had no chance to see them. But perhaps its just a minority that drive this way - however they don't seem to feel they are in danger, which I find very strange.

OhLori Fri 26-Apr-13 19:39:56

p.s. I have only ever had these horrible "near miss" experiences with motor bikes, never cyclists for instance, and I would also consider myself to be a careful and conscientious driver.

wigglesrock Fri 26-Apr-13 19:41:14

They are not my cup of tea but tbf I've never seen a motorbike rider as other posters have said use their phone, change a CD, get distracted by their kids, eat or anything else twatty that I see eejits driving cars do.

WMittens Fri 26-Apr-13 19:51:40

Bikes often speed up so fast to overtake that you don't see them in your mirror, they just loom out of nowhere.

They don't come out of nowhere, they come from somewhere. If that somewhere looks like nowhere then you're not looking in your mirror enough.

WMittens Fri 26-Apr-13 19:53:57

They are not my cup of tea but tbf I've never seen a motorbike rider as other posters have said use their phone, change a CD, get distracted by their kids, eat or anything else twatty that I see eejits driving cars do.

The other morning while driving, I saw a woman happily squeezing some toothpaste on to her brush and proceed to brush her teeth. This was on a dual carriageway near Leeds city centre.

Pan Fri 26-Apr-13 19:54:26

What a really absurd OP!

By 'having a go at drivers' I suspect you mean 'demanding that drivers are being forced to take note of other road users'.

I drive, and the biggest thing that improved my driving was riding a motorbike. I now cycle, a lot and that has also increased my awareness whilst driving.

and yes of course the speed some bikes go at makes it a potentially dangerous way of getting from A to B. But ime drivers tend to think everyone on the road should be 'just like them'. When that isn't the case at all.

Paleodad Fri 26-Apr-13 20:01:30

I,d be interested to know peoples opinions of carrying children on the back of a bike.

I was surprised to see a kid no older than 7 or 8 riding pillion through the city centre today, and was equally surprised to see on the RoSPA website that it's perfectly legal as long as the child is old enough to hold on properly. can it really be safe?

Paleo - afaik it's legal as long as their feet can touch the foot pegs, not if they can hold on properly or not. Since "holding on properly" is subjective, iyswim?

Pan Fri 26-Apr-13 20:08:07

What's legal and sensible are often two different things. I'd never have taken a child on my bike - it's too much of a risk when as a rider I am too vulnerable from car drivers tbh.

Paleodad Fri 26-Apr-13 20:08:29

ah yes, just looked at the website again and as you say reaching the foot pegs is a requirement, as is being able to react to the movement of the bike. I dunno, the kid just looked very vulnerable.

VinegarDrinker Fri 26-Apr-13 20:09:26

.... whereas I cycle with my toddler (and 30 week bump) every day in inner London.

We all make our own judgements.

VinegarDrinker Fri 26-Apr-13 20:10:01

(Pedal bike, not motorbike)

I have taken my kids around the cul-de-sac at about 5mph but I've never taken them out on the road properly iyswim

OhLori Fri 26-Apr-13 20:10:11

Actually, not true Mittens. IME you will not see them in those instances because they are (a) weaving or (b) speeding or (c) weaving and speeding in combination. At the same time they will get extremely close to the car they are overtaking, which is reckless and unnecessary in itself. They may be a minority, but they may really end up a statistic, and its not fair to blame the car driver in those cases.

Pan Fri 26-Apr-13 20:12:23

yes, the responsibility as a pillion is too great. Failing to follow the body-line of the rider means a weight displacement which means it's far harder to steer on corners for eg.

RubyGates Fri 26-Apr-13 20:17:30

Oh God, lets just get the state to tell us what to do, when to do it and stigmatise anyone who wants to do or think differently.

It's so much safer that way. And easier to control the populace.

Thin. End. Wedge.

Tee2072 Fri 26-Apr-13 20:31:45

Big brother, eh Ruby?

GoshAnneGorilla Fri 26-Apr-13 20:32:34

Ruby - Yes, that would be why the U.K has lots of safety laws (including plenty that ban things) and Syria (as a country I am familiar with) has virtually nil.

In fact in Syria, you didn't even have to wear a motorcycle helmet, yet you still had to shut the windows if you wanted to discuss politics at home.

Come on now.

Tee2072 Fri 26-Apr-13 20:37:51

Yes because it's either have helmet laws or free speech.

There is no middle ground...

FFS

VinegarDrinker Fri 26-Apr-13 20:39:02

You need to clarify though - if you are worried about people doing dangerous things to themselves then obviously all extreme sports need to be banned.

If you are worried about the impact on others then it's the car drivers who need targetting first.

GoshAnneGorilla Fri 26-Apr-13 20:51:54

Tee - Didn't say that. But the "thin end of the wedge stuff" is hyperbole.

Tee2072 Fri 26-Apr-13 20:53:11

"In fact in Syria, you didn't even have to wear a motorcycle helmet, yet you still had to shut the windows if you wanted to discuss politics at home."

No, but you implied it. Heavily.

RubyGates Fri 26-Apr-13 20:54:15

There has to be a framework of reasonable laws and safety guidelines.
There has to be a foundation of good education and easily available non-biased information.

And then......

We leave people to make up their own minds.

The price of motorcycle insurance on it's own should be enough to deter fuckwits.

We restrict the "obvious" things and very soon it will be your hobby that will be made illegal.
(Says the person with the unridden bike in the gargage and the long-bow in the bedroom. I'm dangerous, clearly)

OrlaKiely Fri 26-Apr-13 20:54:55

Oh I ride a bike. I'm very good actually. I wear open face helmets and ride at the speed limit, or below, and hate stupid bikers who piss about in traffic and go too fast.

I don't want to ban bikes...I love bikes except the tasselled type but I do wish folk would BEHAVE on them.

GoshAnneGorilla Fri 26-Apr-13 20:56:12

Ruby - but we don't leave people to make up their own minds about seat belts, car construction, drink driving, etc. It's just that you want your hobby to be exempt.

RubyGates Fri 26-Apr-13 20:58:29

See above note about safety laws/guidelines and education.

I want your hobby to be exempt too.

OrlaKiely Fri 26-Apr-13 20:59:24

But bikes aren't that dangerous if used properly, and if other people behave properly too.

Just arbitrarily banning one type of transport is a bit of a pointless exercise. People will still be killed doing all sorts of things and it would be sad for the many people who ride responsibly.

Can you not see that Anne?

Tee2072 Fri 26-Apr-13 21:00:21

But we should Gosh. That's the point.

Why is what a bunch of old men sitting in a panelled room more able to decide what is safe than I can on my own?

Yes, yes, studies, tests blah blah blah.

Those are dis-proven and overturned all the time.

I don't have a dangerous hobby because that's not my thing. But I think people who do should be able to do them without any restrictions.

deleted203 Fri 26-Apr-13 21:03:10

I got a bit lost on the OP here TBH.

Are you suggesting it's unreasonable to be told 'Drive your car carefully - and don't pull out in front of a motorcyclist, please....it tends to kill them'?

YABU if you are saying 'Well, stay off the fucking road then - and you won't get hit'...

GoshAnneGorilla Fri 26-Apr-13 21:07:54

Orla - but they won't be killed on a motorbike. It would be one major source of death and injury, gone. So that's not pointless and I find it peculiar that people are able to blithely wave that fact away.

Just to give one example, handguns and firearms generally killed far fewer people in the UK, then motorbikes do and were a fun hobby for many, but their harm was deemed to outweigh their benefits, hence most are outlawed, or extremely difficult to obtain.

PigletJohn Fri 26-Apr-13 21:10:39

It's true that people are allowed to do dangerous things like biking, rock-climbing, and (horse) riding. Incidentally, quite a lot of biker accidents at weekends are single-vehicle (i.e. nobody hit them).

It's very sad, but predictable, when people are killed or injured doing something they like but which is dangerous. I suppose it would be possible to pass laws prohibiting it but we generally don't.

I've cut down on the dangerous sports but am still registered as an organ donor.

Tee2072 Fri 26-Apr-13 21:12:00

Yes but firearms were used deliberately to kill people. I have never heard of someone deliberately killing someone with a motorbike.

Also why you have to be a certain age to buy a knife in this country. They can't outlaw knives, though, can they? I bet they would if they could.

i am a biker........

ivykaty44 Fri 26-Apr-13 21:14:56

GoshAnneGorilla So due to there being ore cars on the road are you saying it is ok to die in a car but not on a motorbike?

70% of motobike accidents involved a car - take the car away and the decrease of accidents from would be over two thirds.

Have you worked out yet that not only is the car a death trap but a lethal weapon

PigletJohn Fri 26-Apr-13 21:20:09

where did you find the stats, katy?

I have seen them before but can't find it.

ShellyBoobs Fri 26-Apr-13 21:20:20

I'm fucking livid at reading posts saying things like, "Most motorcyclists ride too fast". No they fucking don't.

There are knobheads using every mode of transport but we dont' generalise and say, "Most horse riders are cunts", even though there are a small minority who cause accidents.

The reason car drivers are 'targetted' is that by far the most likely cause of death or serious injury to a biker is a car driver turning right out of a junction pulling out on them.

If you think bikers aren't targetted by the police, have a run up to North Yorkshire on a sunny Saturday/Sunday afternoon and watch as bikers are stopped and prosecuted for any bad/dangerous behaviour.

Car drivers are not targetted in order to let bikers have free reign to ride like wankers.

angry

Sokmonsta Fri 26-Apr-13 21:23:00

I had a friend who was a motorcyclist. His bike went under a bus. sad But I'm in no doubt it was his own idiotic fault from knowing the accident site, his risk-taking behaviour at the time.

They do terrify me. I worry that I will hit one, or cause someone to fall off and I have my dc in the car most of the time.

I'd like to say I think they are all idiots. I don't. I do think the 'think bike' signs do more harm than good. In my experience of driving in areas where these signs are every few hundred yards, motorcyclists seem to take more risks. It seems because there is a sign telling everyone else to be aware that they are there, they are absolved of responsibility if they are in an accident.

Most strongly I think ALL road users have a responsibility to keep abreast of the Highway Code and any updates and use the road within its constraints.

BarredfromhavingStella Fri 26-Apr-13 21:24:40

I'm not a biker, had I had no intention of being a mother I would have been a biker but I digress-I'm a driver & can honestly say I have never felt dread at the sight of a biker-don't honestly understand why you would, it's quite simply another road user & you should give them the due care & attention that you would expect to receive yourself right?

GoshAnneGorilla Fri 26-Apr-13 21:25:01

Ivy In answer to your first question: no, that is clearly not what I have said.

I have addressed your comments upthread, but to reiterate:

Cars can indeed be a lethal weapon, but motorbikes are even more so, to a disproportional level:

"Injuries to motorcyclists are out of proportion to their presence on our roads. Motorcyclists are just 1% of total road traffic, but account for 19% of all road user deaths."

Those statistics are horrendous.

ivykaty44 Fri 26-Apr-13 21:26:55
WMittens Fri 26-Apr-13 21:27:37

OhLori

"Actually, not true Mittens. IME you will not see them in those instances because they are (a) weaving or (b) speeding or (c) weaving and speeding in combination."

During normal driving conditions you should be checking mirrors approximately every 5-8 seconds.

Let's not confuse 'weaving' with 'overtaking' and 'changing road position for maximum visibility'.

If you didn't see them, how do you know they were weaving? If anything, the extra movement of wildly swerving from side to side would bring them to your attention more effectively (human eyes are very good at picking up movement). Combined with the fact many bikes have headlights on automatically (and all riders are taught to switch them on) then you must have been completely ignoring your mirrors to not see them.

"At the same time they will get extremely close to the car they are overtaking,"

Hang on, a second you condemned them for 'weaving' - now you're condemning them for getting too close? You don't like it when they move over to give space between them and cars, you don't like it when they don't. I'm not sure you know what you like, only that you don't like bikers.

frownyface Fri 26-Apr-13 21:29:56

I lost my leg after coming off my bike, I know lots of amputees who have modified bikes so it hasnt put them off.
My husband still rides regularly.
Each to their own I say.
I believe my husband is a better car driver having had several years on a bike prior to gaining his car licence.

ivykaty44 Fri 26-Apr-13 21:30:57

But gosh you don't want to ban cars - why not when they are clearly more lethal than motorbikes?

You don't make sense

it would be like ploughing 80% of funding into deaths by cricket accidents and then leaving the other 20% to research for death by heart disease, Heart disease is the biggest killing disease in this country whereas cricket accidental deaths are low but probably out of proportion to people playing cricket

GoshAnneGorilla Fri 26-Apr-13 21:34:42

Ivy - You don't seem to be grasping the statistics and pulling dubious equivalences out of thin air highlights that.

ivykaty44 Fri 26-Apr-13 21:35:37

Gosh you don't seem to be grasping the fact that it isn't the bikes that are the problem but the car drivers.....

Tee2072 Fri 26-Apr-13 21:38:14

BTW, in California it is legal for a motorbike to weave between stalled cars in a traffic jam.

Just in case you're even in California in a traffic jam.

FrustratedSycamoresRocks Fri 26-Apr-13 21:38:52

It might be 19% of road traffic deaths, but a large proportion of those will be because of other road users.

Idiotic road users driving like twats will do so in whatever form of transport they use.

But you need to consider that car occupants make up 46% and pedestrians make up 24%,
So if you are just looking at percentages of fatalities and over generalising, then pedestrians are far more of a risk than motorcyclists.

Pan Fri 26-Apr-13 21:40:10

indeed, so lets ban pedestrians. Seems logical from stats?

Pan Fri 26-Apr-13 21:41:43

bi-peds. They walk around, constantly weaving and changing speed. Just asking for it really.

LadyIsabellaWrotham Fri 26-Apr-13 21:42:44

I wish to stand up for the old men in panelled rooms, who have saved tens of thousands of lives over the last twenty years by their nannyish "we know best" attitude. They have done it, for the most part, by targeting car and lorry drivers, since they're the people who do most of the killing. And long may they continue to do so.

I disagree with the OP about motorbikes, but I think she has a point about Syria actually - in general there is very little overlap between the truly authoritarian thought police states, and the elf and safety nannyish states, because the real bastards honestly don't care whether their subjects live or die as long as they're not causing trouble.

GoshAnneGorilla Fri 26-Apr-13 21:43:19

Pan - addressed upthread already. People need to walk around. No one needs to ride a motorbike.

Tee2072 Fri 26-Apr-13 21:45:23

Well, then, LadyIsabella, let's scrap them both and find that happy medium!

Or a cheeful psychic. I'm not that bothered either way.

::has been drinking, it's true::

Tee2072 Fri 26-Apr-13 21:45:40

ARGH! Cheerful psychic!

::blew the joke::

I'm a driver (a careful considerate driver who always checks for bikes) but motorcyclists terrify me.

I live on a road that's very popular with bikers, a long windy bendy scenic road down a river valley. There's been three bikers killed on it in the last few years. Every one of them was involved in a collision with a car yet in each case the driver of the car has not been held responsible. The bikers were overtaking or going too fast on bends, and therefore on the wrong side of the road, in each collision.

I am genuinely scared of being the car driver in an accident like that. I would be devastated to be involved and also I'd be fucking furious that someone had felt their need for speed and thrills and fun had caused that devastation. I've been driving down there often enough and been overtaken in utterly twattish places by bikers, and also had to slow down as I've come round a bend to find one on the wrong side of the road as they whizz past the bus or bin van or whatever (and I don't drive at a silly speed down that road due to aforementioned bendy windiness!)

I think everyone should just chill the fuck out, drive carefully and considerately and SAFELY and give a bit of thought to everyone else that is on the road. And if you want to zoom about dangerously fast for thrills then go to a racetrack or on the dodgems or something.

FrustratedSycamoresRocks Fri 26-Apr-13 21:47:26

We could also assume that all of that 24% ran into the road infront of something.
Clearly this is not true by any stretch of the imagination.

But it's the same assumption that all bikers are twats that ride too fast and are killing themselves.

VinegarDrinker Fri 26-Apr-13 21:50:09

Noone needs to ski, or abseil, or mountain climb either.

Or cycle.

FrustratedSycamoresRocks Fri 26-Apr-13 21:51:29

gosh noone "needs" to drive a car either.

Can we ban pushchairs too? because some of those drivers are lethal. And mobility scooters? (Old man near me goes to the local pub on his, and irratically drives it home when he'd pissed out of his face half cut)

GoshAnneGorilla Fri 26-Apr-13 21:52:54

Frustrated - For me, it's that a motorbike will not protect you in a collision, that's why there are so many motorbike related fatalities and that's why I think they are inherently unroadworthy and unsafe.

BlackDahlia11 Fri 26-Apr-13 21:54:06

As my biker husband says, there are two types of bikers. The speed demons who take big risks and then there are the cautious, normal ones. DH is very cautious and hyper aware of everything around him because he knows how easy accidents happen and how often cars don't seem to see him. He's had some near misses. Car drivers just not paying attention. When I'm on the back I see the things people do. The texting, calling, some people seem to treat their car like it's their livingroom. Smoke, drink a cup of tea, do their make up, make a call... All distractions from the road. BUT not all drivers are like that. There are ones who do that and ones who are perfectly good drivers.

Get the fannies off the road who can't drive properly. Would solve a few problems smile

Tee2072 Fri 26-Apr-13 21:56:01

Hell, no one needs to eat biscuits or drink wine, both of which can be classed as or lead to 'risky behaviour'. But we do.

Pan Fri 26-Apr-13 21:57:14

It's very much like the cyclist thing. As some cyclists ride badly and without consideration, then all cyclists get judged. Even the saintly majority, who get sick of having to allow for v bad driving standards. But that's worth a few other threads!!

Has anybody linked this fantastic safety video yet?

ShellyBoobs Fri 26-Apr-13 21:59:32

No one needs to ride a motorbike.

Nope.

And no one needs to ride a horse;
Or smoke a cigarette;
Or drink wine;
Or skydive;
Or dive with sharks;
Or drive a racing car;
Or own a gun;
Or eat refined sugar.

RubyGates Fri 26-Apr-13 21:59:58

No one needs to sew or cook in the home!
Look at the horrible accidents that occur with knives and pins and scissors and boiling water. BAN IT NOW!

Let's have state approved food and clothing from Tesco Asda the state approved outlet.

VinegarDrinker Fri 26-Apr-13 22:00:26

But what do they need "protecting" from? You in your car!

Roads are for everyone not just those in metal shells.

WMittens Fri 26-Apr-13 22:00:31

GoshAnneGorilla

A horse will not protect the rider in an accident (possibly causing additional injury or damage).
No one needs to ride a horse.
There are so many horse related fatalities and injuries.

The only conclusion must be to ban horses.

If you're going to talk about need, I'm going to start quoting Maslow.

FrustratedSycamoresRocks Fri 26-Apr-13 22:02:50

It's the yoofs on mopeds wearing shorts and t-shirts and riding next to each other and trying to race that scare me gosh
suited and booted and riding sensibly in itself isn't dangerous, nor is the bike. It's the person on the bike (or in the car) that makes them (the car or the bike) dangerous.

I agree with blacks DH, there are 2 types of bikers, unfortunately it's the twats that take risks that are remembered.

ivykaty44 Fri 26-Apr-13 22:03:47

well going to school in america is deemed as dangerous and Where as some people would rather the bullets were taken away, in america they want the children to wear bullet proof uniforms

PigletJohn Fri 26-Apr-13 22:04:38

thanks katy

this was the one I was thinking of

"Fatal accidents often involve the motorcycle running off the road (41% of fatalities). These are often late at night, weekend crashes involving a drunken motorcyclist (Preusser et al 1995)."

though it looks out of date by now. I can't see the numbers for deaths per 100,000 miles but it shocked me when I did.

(I am not anti-biker, but I am anti-idiot)

RubyGates Fri 26-Apr-13 22:04:38

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both"

WMittens Fri 26-Apr-13 22:04:51

NorthernLurker

That's a really good video, not seen that one before. I'm quite fond of this one too.

Roads aren't a racetrack or personal playground though are they.

And SOME car drivers/bikers/cyclists/etc treat them as though they are, and that is dangerous to everyone else who is just trying to get from A to B as safely as possible.

Every road user needs to take responsibility for making sure they use the road as safely, considerately, and appropriately as possible, and for avoiding taking unnecessary risks.

VinegarDrinker Fri 26-Apr-13 22:07:21

That 41% of fatalities stat is fairly meaningless on its own though. What % of car fatalities are from cars going off the road/into trees etc? Must be a fair number.

youmaycallmeSSP Fri 26-Apr-13 22:08:30

YANBU. Every time I see one of those 'Think Bike' posters I think 'fine, but how about bikers try respecting the speed limit and stop weaving in and out of traffic like loons'. I have never, ever seen a non-stationary motorbike that wasn't speeding. They don't get caught by speed cameras designed to flash front registration plates so they flout the law. Even the normal ones are ridiculously noisy and those nasty moped things with exhausts that sound like a wasp nest are awful and wake up my baby every night (we live on a main road, no getting away from it). I could go on but my blood pressure is unstable grin

Dahlen Fri 26-Apr-13 22:10:11

The fact that injuries to/deaths of bikers is out of proportion to their numbers is due to the fact that they are much more vulnerable than car drivers. You misjudge a bend in the road doing 30 and you might write off your car and be shook up with a bit of whiplash, but on a bike you could come off and be seriously injured or dead. That doesn't mean bikers are more accident prone than car drivers, it just means they're more likely to get hurt or killed when involved with an accident.

Most accidents involving bikers involved other cars. I haven't ridden for a few years, but when I was the only near misses I had were once when I hit a patch of diesel on a road, and many, many times when car users failed to see me and pulled out in front of me at junctions (and yes I was obeying the speed limit and wearing high-viz clothing).

Most bikers ride defensively - which means they expect car drivers not to see them and are therefore very cautious and ready to react. IMO a course of CBT would do many many car drivers the world of good and do a lot to reduce the number of accidents.

A small number of bikers ride like idiots. A far higher proportion of car drivers are so inobservant that they shouldn't be allowed on the road at all.

Plus3 Fri 26-Apr-13 22:10:26

You are being totally unreasonable - as in all things, there are good sensible riders and those who take stupid risks. You cannot lump them together.

My DH rides a motorbike - has done since aged 18. He has had 3 accidents - 2 were road conditions (ice and diesel on the road) the another was a car jumping a red light (luckily only the bike was damaged) He is vulnerable and that scares me, but more from other road users inattention.

We also know several traffic policemen who are avid bikers...

GoblinGranny Fri 26-Apr-13 22:10:33

Has anyone mentioned how much cheaper motorbikes are to run and insure for people under 25?
That was a key reason for friends I had as a student who rode bikes. Even more so now that car insurance is astronomical for younger drivers.

PigletJohn Fri 26-Apr-13 22:10:49

SMIDSY

angry

Grrrrr.

VinegarDrinker Fri 26-Apr-13 22:13:53

"SMIDSY"
"Well learn how to use your bloody mirrors then"

Isn't it my job to protect my baby?
What if your baby is 18 years old.
It really doesn't matter whose fault it was when the boy is dead.
I knew two young men who were killed in motor bike accidents before I had children. 20+ years ago in fact.
I never forget them and what they would have been doing now. I see one of their mothers every day. he was her only child and he was 22.He would be alive if had not ridden a motor bike, simple as that.

Plus3 Fri 26-Apr-13 22:22:47

But accidents happen. If you are saying that a young man dies because he is riding a motorbike irresponsibly, then who is to say that if the motorbike wasn't available he wouldn't then drive a car badly and hit a tree, or indulge in some other type of risk taking behaviour?

It is not, nor will it ever be a simple argument.

But when you come round a bend on a notoriously dangerous road, doing the recommended speed for that bend, and there's a bike going considerably faster coming towards you on your side of the road as they overtake the number 35 bus...? Because that has happened to me. And it was scary and I had to pull over and calm down afterwards because I was shaking, because I thought my car with me at the wheel was going to kill someone through no fault of my own.

The biker hardly slowed at all, just zoomed off having had a close shave with both my car and the bus.

I'm scared of driving on that road at all now. I am scared of being in that situation and seeing it unfold and being unable to prevent an accident. I have to do it anyway and I tend to crawl round the bends which of course pisses off whoever is behind me so I feel like I can't win and will take a 10 mile detour to avoid that stretch when I have the time.

zzrbabe1100 Fri 26-Apr-13 22:25:22

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Pan Fri 26-Apr-13 22:30:13

Seems reasonable, debz....

andubelievedthat Fri 26-Apr-13 22:41:38

specifically,you have no idea whether the lad who was killed whilst biking would be alive today if he had not been out on his bike that day.Claiming /posting what you just did is rediculous .

Iactuallydothinkso Fri 26-Apr-13 23:24:53

In answer to the poster who said the price of the insurance should put bikers off....

I am currently paying the grand total of £5.76 a month for fully comp insurance!!!

That's not actually putting me off but positively encouraging me considering my car insurance is £27.00,!!!

Not really a valid point of view eh?

Lovely to see mums net bikers coming out here. I suggest we have a massive ride out!

GoblinGranny Fri 26-Apr-13 23:35:34

Is that my post you are referring to? Because that's not what I wrote.

grumpyinthemorning Sat 27-Apr-13 00:07:30

Ffs, my dad used to take me and my brother out on his bike when we were kids. He taught us how to corner, how to hold on tight. Always wore full leathers and helmets. As an adult I own full leathers and a lid because I ride pillion on my mates bikes. Only once have I felt unsafe, one of my friends took stupid risks, I never rode with him again.

Why should the majority of safe riders be punished for the actions of a few careless riders and more than a few lazy or careless drivers?

ShellyBoobs Sat 27-Apr-13 00:13:28

I have never, ever seen a non-stationary motorbike that wasn't speeding.

That is absolute first class fucking bullshit. Utter made-up bollocks of the highest order.

Even the normal ones are ridiculously noisy...

Another load of bullshit.

The restrictions on new motorcycles' noise emissions are massively more harsh than those on cars. Are you now going to tell us that every bike has a non-standard exhaust pipe?

Generalising like you have done just makes you come across as extremely thick which perhaps you are.

pinkhalf Sat 27-Apr-13 00:28:33

What is always really telling is going out with a white helmet and hi viz, plod style.

Suddenly many unobservant drivers start using their mirrors and looking. It isn't so much the clothes as the fear that your car licence might be affected. It really sets apart the good drivers from the negligent.

I do think that bikers can scare car drivers unwittingly. Drivers have little idea about what a bike can do and what sort of view bikers have. A motorcyclist can see a lot more of the road, looks further and will plan accordingly. That can terrify drivers who think what a motorcyclist has been taught is safe is dangerous. Much of it is not realising what a motorcyclist can see and do compared to a car.

I do think bikers need to be more sympathetic to drivers in one way - never assume a driver can judge speed. It's hard to do with another car and nearly impossible to do for a motorcycle. So riding a bike, the onus is really on you to make sure that you are doing a speed that the driver expects for the road.

PigletJohn Sat 27-Apr-13 00:40:27

There are certainly people who take pleasure in having noisy exhausts, and spend a lot of money on achieving it. They are of course much more noticable than the less noisy ones. I have no idea what the proportions are. As delivered from the factory the exhaust has to be not too noisy at a specified load and speed (but can be more noisy at others, even if standard).

The noisy ones are very annoying, and where I live (on the South Coast backing on to a road going to the beach) it can be intolerable to sit in the garden if there is a club or some other kind of meet going that way.

I've never seen anyone stopped for having a noisy exhaust but perhaps it does happen.

PigletJohn Sat 27-Apr-13 00:44:28

pinkhalf

it is very odd how car drivers react to bikes.

I am by nature a very quiet, reasonable and unintimidating person, and not a racy or reckless rider. But many car drivers slow down and slink along in the gutter trying to get me to go past them. They have no idea what's inside that bulky jacket and full-face helmet.

pinkhalf Sat 27-Apr-13 00:52:29

PigletJohn,

Yes, I too find this. Drivers can pull right over to get you to overtake. That can be good, but I won't do it until it is safe to do so. Often what they do and when is quite dangerous.

Riding in Europe is amazing compared to the UK. So many of them start on mopeds and scooters that they know what it is like and just let you go. Really nice of them and they have clear mirrors.

zzrbabe1100 Sat 27-Apr-13 06:55:59

oh and just another thought for you lot.what about the milions of pounds bikers raise for various charitys every year??? in my life i have done over 40 egg runs and toy runs taking easter eggs and toys to terminally sick kids in hospitals.we raise thousands of pounds for air ambulances.we raise thousands more for cancer charitys.and how many funerals of car drivers do you see a line of over 100 cars at to show respect NONE!!! we respect each other. i have done over 20 runs to collect money for animal shelters and raise again thousands of pounds.the saying "DONT KNOCK IT TILL YOUVE TRIED IT" comes to mind.oh and for the ones who said they will never allow their child on a bike well heres a thought for you!! my dad god rest him said too me when i was 6 i couldnt have a bike well by 8 i had my first off road bike and by 16 my first road bike!! when i was 16 he said i wasnt allowed to have a tattoo well i now have my whole back done both my thighs and both my arms.if you tell a child no you cant do that or have that they want it even more and most will just go out and do it.
so what does that make me a heavily tattooed bike riding moron ????? well i chalenge you to come to my town and see if you can spot me cos my bikes and my tattoos dont change me as a person i would be the same with or without!!!!!!!!!!!!! i work hard earn my money and have the right to do what the hell i like!!!! oh and for your information the goverment has changed the laws regarding bikes you now have to do a four part course to get your licence and its not damn easy like the feckin car test.also the reason we can ride on L plates alone is that as a learner on a 125 your not allowed to carry passengers anymore!!!!!!! not that i take passengers anyway!!!!. try getting your fact straight before making sweeping statements.statistics prove that at least 80% of accidents between cars and bikes are caused by the car drivers not paying attention.and instead messing about with other stuff.if they made the car test into learning to drive and not just learning how to pass a test you lot might have a better idea.when i passed my car test in 2005 i had 3hrs of lessons and then went for my test and passed first time that was because ive been on the road since i was 16 and had many years experience and knew what i was doing.but i could then go out and drive any car i wanted that could do any speed.with bikes when you pass your test your restricted to a lower cc for two years!!!!!!!!!!
DO YOUR RESEARCH BEFORE YOU PREACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MidniteScribbler Sat 27-Apr-13 07:00:08

I'll admit that many bikers scare the bejesus out of me. I drive a specialised vehicle, and most bikers simply don't realise that they are actually below the level of my windows. When they are going to the front of the queue and sitting right next to my bonnet, I can barely see them, and it's worse at night if they don't have high vis on.

A semi trailer truck driver friend of mine hit a biker when he pulled forwards and stopped in front of his truck at a set of traffic lights. When the lights changed, his motorcycle stalled, and my friend had no idea he was even there and went over the top of him. Fortunately, he had a dashboard camera, and when it was played back, at no point could you even see the biker moving forward and in front of the truck. It ruined his life though, and he hasn't been able to get behind the wheel of any vehicle since, it caused him such distress and he's lost his livelihood because of it.

I am exceptionally careful when driving, and haven't had an accident in nearly twenty years of driving, but the onus shouldn't only be on me. Other road users need to be aware of whether they are visible to other road users, regardless of what people are driving.

sashh Sat 27-Apr-13 07:05:38

When I lived in London it was cheaper to buy, insure and MOT my bike than it was to buy a travel card.

And I could get into work when the tube was on strike.

Oh and I could park a bike at work, not a car.

zzrbabe1100 Sat 27-Apr-13 07:16:39

everyone should be responsible for for their own actions.i for one when i go to the front of the traffic pull far ahead of the vehicle behind me so they can see me!!.i have had cars purposly close the gap as im filtering to stop me!!! nearly bringing me off my bike"THEY WERE NOT CHANGING LANE AS THEY HAD NOWHERE TO GO"" they just didnt want me getting past them.i had a car driver pull out of a junction and then stop in front of me when i was less than 6ft away from him and then he lied to the police and told them i was speeding.to which the police said i couldnt have been doing more than 20mph as i didnt even go over to the other side of the car.if i had indeed been doing the 60mph he claimed i was my body would have gone over the bonnet and carried on for at least 200yds.he then admitted he was lying and that it was his fault not only did he not see me but didnt even see the lorry coming the other way till it was too late and thats why he had to stop in the middle of the road!!!!!!!!!!!!

financialwizard Sat 27-Apr-13 07:35:25

biscuit

Only a car driver would make a stupid comment like that.

Everyone has responsibility for themselves and the people around them on the road. Riders are no more dangerous than car drivers.

financialwizard Sat 27-Apr-13 07:36:46

Oooooh ZZR my first bike was a ZZR.

zzrbabe1100 Sat 27-Apr-13 07:42:07

lol ive had four zzr1100,s and a zzr1400 and i now ride a triumph speed triple!!! and im a woman and i ride as good as anyoneand i have never caused an accident in my life and never even caused a near miss!!!!!!!!!!! i take risks yeah but calculated ones!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BIKES ARE NOT DANGEROUS ITS THE PEOPLE WHO RIDE THEM!!!!
as the saying goes " GUNS DONT KILL PEOPLE PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OrlaKiely Sat 27-Apr-13 08:20:36

zzr can you calm down a bit, please - you might be right but you're making people think bikers are all nuts smile and I for one am not.

MidniteScribbler Sat 27-Apr-13 08:23:20

Yes ZZR, not exactly providing us with the image of a responsible, educated, well meaning bike rider with those posts. Spelling, grammar and punctuation go a long way towards promoting an effective argument.

And give your exclamation key a break. What has it ever done to you?

WeAreEternal Sat 27-Apr-13 08:23:51

Motorbikes are not dangerous.
Cars are not dangerous.
Idiots and bad drivers are dangerous.

The reason the death/injury rates are so high are because on a bike you are obviously going to be injured worse in an accident than someone in the protective shell of a car.

Over 70% of bike accidents are caused by, and the fault of car/lorry drivers.

45% of all bike accidents are caused because a car/lorry driver not looking properly.
30% of bike accidents are due to a car/lorry driver believing they have right of way over a bike (where they wouldn't if it was a car)
Only 10% of bike accidents are caused by loss of control/speeding.
15% are due to overtaking collisions.

I have been riding motorbikes for 12 years, I have has two accident in that time.
The first was caused by a woman taking on the phone who wasn't looking didn't see me when she pulled out.
The second was caused by a man who decided to overtake someone when I was coming in the other direction, he figured he would have time to overtake as I could get out of his way.

The most dangerous thing about being a motorbike rider is idiot car driver and that is a proven fact.

LadyIsabellaWrotham Sat 27-Apr-13 08:24:38

Also explicitly linking bike control with gun control is not going to win you many friends on a UK website Orla. Starting to think zzr might be the OP in a particularly cunning disguise grin.

OrlaKiely Sat 27-Apr-13 08:26:22

'but their harm was deemed to outweigh their benefits'

OP - yes, that's probably the case with guns.

It's not the case, so far, with bikes. That's probably the answer to your original question tbh.

zzrbabe1100 Sat 27-Apr-13 08:26:39

im sorry i thought we were all free thinking??? so its ok for all these no knowledge idiots on here to slag us all off but we are not allowed to defend ourselves well im sorry but i am very feckin angry!!!!angry i notice that the ijit that started the thread has hardly had anything to say ??? well if you set off a bomb expect the aftermath!!!!!!!!! and for your information i am not nuts and my threads do not make me seem nuts just angry and pissed off.but then its just another case of people telling other people what to do and how to behave!!!!!!!!!!!! and i am right you show me one bike that can start itself go out for a ride and kill someone??? go on show me cos you and nobody else can.A TOOL IS ONLY AS DANGEROUS AS THE PERSON WEILDING IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sparklingbrook Sat 27-Apr-13 08:28:08

I left this thread yesterday as it was going a bit weird. I see it's all going swingingly well now. confused

PigletJohn Sat 27-Apr-13 08:49:26

You are more likely to be hurt on a bike than in a car. No question. And more likely to be hurt badly.

Squabbling over blame won't change that.

LadyIsabellaWrotham Sat 27-Apr-13 08:58:00

Agree piglet. The 30% of bike accidents that are not caused by other road users (taking WAE's figures on trust) would still make it a load more dangerous than cars, (which are a load more dangerous than trains, commercial planes and buses).

Worth restricting on that basis? No, because bikers normally only harm themselves, and because it's an efficient means of transport for those who are willing to take the risks. As a pedestrian I certainly don't want to see all the bikers forced into cars or the Northern Line. Compulsory helmets and frequent campaigns to educate all road users seems the sensible compromise, which is why it's the law.

MidniteScribbler Sat 27-Apr-13 09:06:11

Oh FFS ZZR, no one on this website has the power to magically change the law and stop motorbikes existing just because some people on an internet forum talk about it. If that were the case, SAHMs would earn more than CEOs and killing someone who parks in a parents with prams parking spot would be justifiable homicide.

However, seemingly intelligent adults can have a discussion and put forward different points of view. It's called a debate. And rarely does the person ranting and raving like a lunatic get taken seriously in a debate.

Svrider Sat 27-Apr-13 09:07:03

Yabu
Motor bikes are great
They are only dangerous if ridden incorrectly, or more usually due to poor driving standards of car users

Sorry mate I didn't see you indeed

dawntigga Sat 27-Apr-13 09:08:26

As a biker myself what WeAreEternal said. Taking an extra couple of seconds to look for motorcycles doesn't just save the life of bikers but also pedestrians and cyclists. As does not talking on your bloody mobile when it's not hands free and a million other things I see car drivers do that bikers can't/don't.

A study (Clarke et al 2004) [...] there are 3 basic discernible motorcycle crash types:

- Right of way violation accidents (38% of cases)
- Loss of control at bends at speed (11% plus of cases)
- Overtaking/filtering accidents (15% of cases)

Clarke et al found that road users other than the injured motorcyclists are usually the cause of crashes and therefore road safety initiatives should be targeted at those other road users in addition to bikers.

Taking that extra time to shoulder check before you change lanes or actually using your indicator before moving your vehicle would help. So yes, actually assigning blame and getting the perps to fix their behaviour is, actually, a valid way of preventing death on the roads. Victim blaming rarely prevents anything.

You get muppets in every section of society, don't get me started on bikers without gloves on, you'll get bloody stumps if you come off numpty.

European research says that over half of the accidents involving motorcycles/mopeds occur at junctions. Figures in the UK show that 48% of crashes between motorcycles and cars were the result of the car driver failing to look properly. So just take the extra seconds to look and stop blaming the victims, the life you save could be a child stepping out into the road not just a biker.

Oh and YABVVVVVVVVU.

LovesABig4Tiggaxx

OrlaKiely Sat 27-Apr-13 11:36:39

'A TOOL IS ONLY AS DANGEROUS AS THE PERSON WEILDING IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'

Quite. But if you react in this manner frequently ZZR then I'd hate to encounter you in a road related incident.

I think a lot of bike riders have defended motorcyclists on this thread, plenty of non riders have also spoken out against the OP's idea but the difference is we did it calmly and rationally, not like our heads were on fire. And that's how you get people to listen.

PigletJohn Sat 27-Apr-13 11:52:04

A TOOL IS ONLY AS DANGEROUS AS THE PERSON WEILDING IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

well, that isn't actually true.

If I've got a hammer with a hickory handle, and a proper steel head firmly attached with a wedge, I am less likely to be injured with it than if I have one with a cracked handle, a wrongly-hardened head that emits splinters of steel, and no wedge so that the head flies off and hits me in the face. Rgeardless of my care and skill in using it, and the absence of otherwise of other people throwing bricks at me while I hammer.

However skilled and careful you are, the casualty rate is higher on a bike than in a car. Even if you subtract all the accidents that are someone else's fault.

This is entirely separate from the blame arguments and the freedom arguments.

OrlaKiely Sat 27-Apr-13 11:53:32

Fair point John.

VinegarDrinker Sat 27-Apr-13 11:54:30

This is where pedal cycling arguably differs, as the numerous health benefits of the exercise gained go a long way to compensate for the slightly increased risk of being killed by a HGV.

pinkhalf Sat 27-Apr-13 11:57:36

Yes please use your indicators before you move. And use your mirrors. Afterwards is no good.

It is easy to be brave in a car, or thoughtless in how you drive. There is no divine right for you to act like you own the road because you occupy more of it. If you are on your mobile I report you to the police. You aren't paying attention to the road.

I would like to see Dutch style liability laws for driving here. The larger the vehicle, the greater the responsibility. If you hit someone in a smaller vehicle, the liability will rest with you unless there are exceptional circumstances.

Pan Sat 27-Apr-13 12:14:11

yes, I'm curious about reporting drivers using their mobiles whilst driving. Would the police be intersted?

As I'm pedalling away and drawing level with cars it's really hmm to see what people are doing when they are supposed to be concentrating. Couple of weeks ago there was a woman eating her cereal. One hand on bowl, one hand on spoon, presumably steering wheel between her thighs/knees.

DomesticCEO Sat 27-Apr-13 12:23:16

shock Pan!

I'm a cyclist (pedal) and really fancy getting one of those helmet cams tbh. I wonder whether the police would prosecute dangerous driving based on the video evidence from them?

Pantah630 Sat 27-Apr-13 12:36:19

Can't even be arsed, here have this biscuit and go lay in the cotton wool! angry

Pantah630 Sat 27-Apr-13 12:41:26

FFS play not lay, though laying would obviously be safer.
Off to work out how to hide the thread.....oh there smile

Pan Sat 27-Apr-13 12:49:39

I think it depends on the local police IF they would be intersted, and just how bad the driving was possibly?

The vast vast majority of drivers are really fine and polite, ime anyway. But I don't ride in central London which seems to be a jungle of it's own.

ivykaty44 Sat 27-Apr-13 17:17:26

I thought of ths thread today as I was pulling out of sainsbury car park I was cut up badly by another car - I wasn't going fast and I stopped to avoid a collision, but what made me roll my eyes was the fact that as I came up behind this car at the roundabout in the back window was a sticker

Think bike
Think biker

shame the driver didn't think to use there near side wing mirror....

Rowanblossom Sat 27-Apr-13 22:34:30

Wow. Who said gross prejudice and stupidness are dead!!!!!!!!!

So let's make sure I get this right, all bikers ride dangerously, too fast, and filtering shouldn't be allowed cos cars can't. Not to mention that helmets are scary and you can't tell what sex we are in our protective gear. Oh yes and it is always our fault if an incident happens because the other party didn't see us because they don't think they need to use mirrors, indicators, spatial awareness or engage their brains! 

Damn I should stop riding at or under the speed limit and being road aware, and saying thanks to those who nudge over for me and buy into the obviously fair and level headed thinking!

Next time a car driver cuts me up, tries to undertake, change lanes without looking or indicating, chucks a cig butt out of the window (again without looking) or decides to swerve to stop my legal filtering I will pull along side and profusely apologise for their actions, getting in their way and generally being annoying to their sensabilities and belief that their opinion is the only corrct one. 

I knew i should have apologised to the woman driver who nearly took me out cos she was too busy reading paperwork, or the young lad who was having such an animated chat on his mobile phone that he didn't think it was important enough to have either hand on the wheel or go travel in a straight line (nearly hitting the coach on one side and the central reservation on the other) and obviously it was my fault that the male driver changed lanes without looking whilst shaving.

I would add I have a clean driving licence for 26 years and not all drivers are numpties. I wouldn't generalise car drivers, cyclists, bikers or pedestrians as all dangerous idiots. In every area there are both sensible people and idiots. 

However buying into governmental biased report is right up there on the numpty scale. 

Its like the hi viz report saying it will save lives when an independent report stated that as soon as the brain recgonises the hi viz isn't police related it is no longer a visusal deterent and people immediatly ignore it. This process takes the brain less than a couple of seconds to carry out. Do I wear hi vis ....yes cos it makes me feel better and also I have the knowledge that no legal bod can blame me for not wearing it because a "Smidsy" was in action.

PigletJohn Sat 27-Apr-13 23:00:53

fault isn't the point. It's vulnerability.

If an egg falls on a stone, alas for the egg.

If a stone falls in an egg, alas for the egg.

You're the egg.

Rowanblossom Sun 28-Apr-13 00:06:32

Everyone is vulnerable whatever you use for transport....however the initial post was.......

"Why don't they just accept that motorbikes are deathtraps and campaign against people riding them"

Many other comments were implying all bikers are dangerous or we scare drivers and we are as a whole unpredictable.

I and every biker I know take extreme care with regard to safety. One of the MAIN reasons we are vulnerable is the behaviour and complete lack of awareness of other road users and further despite bbc crap reporting and governmental biaised reports the MAIN reason for motorbike incidents are Smidsy drivers.

Yes there is a minority of idiot riders but most of us are responsible on the roads as we are more than aware we don't bounce.

The given ethos that we just get on a bike and ride around like loons is narrowminded, especially given the new regs and the fact that learning to ride is actually tougher than learning to drive (as a friend's son told me after learning to drive and ride). There are limits now for different ages, where engine size is limited for bike riders, unlike young drivers who can after passing their test get into any car they want regardless of engine size.

GoshAnneGorilla Sun 28-Apr-13 02:20:21

Rowan - It is hard to have much bias in numbers of dead people.

Motorcyclists are 1% of road users, and account for 19% of road deaths. Please show me where the bias occurs.

Piglet - Thank you for the stone and egg analogy, that is my point exactly.

I posted in AIBU because I wanted to have a debate (btw, that's not the same as trolling or stirring), but I am baffled as to how irate some people have been. "Needing a lie down" and "Hiding the thread", seems a bit excessive.

I do think if motorbikes where some new fad that had been imported from abroad and had the same death/accident rates that they do now, they would almost certainly be banned.

MidniteScribbler Sun 28-Apr-13 02:32:43

Many other comments were implying all bikers are dangerous or we scare drivers and we are as a whole unpredictable.

I said that they scare me, because they do. Sadly, I have seen so many poor bikers that aren't doing the right things. Other drivers scare the heck out of me too. So do cyclists not in the bike lanes. And toddlers crossing roads without holding their parents hands. It's because I don't trust anyone that I've managed to not have an accident in all my years of driving. I can only take responsibility for my own safety on their road to make sure I don't injure someone else and I always work on the assumption that the other person will do something stupid and err on the side of caution.

What annoys me is that a particular group of people (in this case bikers) are expecting a whole other group of people to be responsible for their safety, without accepting and addressing faults in their own behaviour that can lead to some very avoidable incidents.

GoombayDanceBand Sun 28-Apr-13 07:01:50

Hang on a moment. You're generalising there Midnite. I and many, many other sensible motorcyclists do NOT in any way expect other road users to take responsibility for my/our safety.

We ride safely, we stick within the speed limit, we are careful and aware and defensive when riding.

If you treat us a bit like any other vehicle then we all should be ok.

I do filter at times but I do it slowly and carefully (and noisily enough to be heard) so that if anything did occur, through someone's error, it would be more likely a near miss at slow speed than an actual incident.

I have to say this rarely happens, that drivers don't know I'm coming along beside them. Very rarely.

However I was overtaken when driving the other day by some idiot on a bike who appeared at speed out of nowhere, which did make me jump, and yes I called him names under my breath.

There are bikers and there are motorcyclists. We're not all the same. I drive a car, since 18 years, I ride a bike for 12. I cycle as well.

Cyclists often freak me out on the road.

My thinking is still that motor cars and bikes should have a separate road system to pedal cycles, because we're basically incompatible if we want things to be efficient. But if people on motorbikes behave themselves then they are basically very compatible with cars. I often ride in a steady flow of traffic, same speed as an ordinary car, just I'm a bit narrower.

Many people who ride bikes DO love the thrill of speeding, but I can't say I have ever understood that. And I would guess that a whole lot more of us don't care a hoot how fast we are going, we just love to be on a bike full stop.

So please don't put us all into one box labelled 'maniacs' because I think you'll find that's a huge misconception.

MidniteScribbler Sun 28-Apr-13 07:18:58

No, I actually agree with you Goombay, there are many good bikers out there (over here we tend to refer to people who ride motorcycles as 'bikers' and the less savory element as "bikies" just so you understand why I use the term I do) just as there are many good drivers, cyclists, pedestrians and horse riders. My point is that I take responsibility for myself on the road. I'm careful, cautious and I do make the assumption that someone may do something silly because I'd rather be prepared for the worst than get lulled in to a false sense of security. I do drive a very large vehicle, and I'm hyper aware of the damage I could do if I'm involved in an accident. I was hit last year (whilst stationary at a traffic light) and my vehicle had a few scratches on the tail gate, whilst his was a complete write off, so I know the potential for my vehicle to cause serious injury.

What I'm saying is that everyone needs to be aware of themselves and other vehicles, regardless of what type of vehicle they are driving. For example, I was always taught not to drive in someone's blind spot if I could avoid it, for the very reason that it is a blind spot. So for a biker (or any vehicle) to pootle along in someone's blind spot for a few kms, there is the potential there for a person to pull out. I'd much rather someone overtake, or sit behind me, rather than on my shoulder as it's a much safer place to drive. I'll check, double and triple check and indicate well before I make a lane change to make sure I don't hit anyone, but bikers could make themselves safer by not driving there in the first place because not everyone may be as obsessive about checking as I am. Road safety is a two way street (pardon the pun!).

dawntigga Sun 28-Apr-13 07:20:48

Of course Op you wanted a debate, that's why you couched your op in deliberately inflammatory language.

biscuit

GoombayDanceBand Sun 28-Apr-13 07:30:26

Yes you're absolutely right Midnite. If everyone drove or rode with your way of thinking, it would be far safer out there.

By the way, ' I was hit last year (whilst stationary at a traffic light) and my vehicle had a few scratches on the tail gate, whilst his was a complete write off, so I know the potential for my vehicle to cause serious injury. '

I want whatever car you've got! grin
(when you say large - my first car was a LWB transit, it was 17ft long, and I destroyed a few gateposts reversing in that...) blush

MidniteScribbler Sun 28-Apr-13 07:51:40

Mine is a Holden 4x4 dual cab ute that has had a big canopy on the back which has been built in with dog cages. Because of that, the blind spot is shocking for me, but she (and her big bull bar) has saved my life numerous times against early morning suicidal roos, so I'll keep her. It's also good fun for watching the faces of men when you pull up somewhere and can reverse park the trailer first go. "Chicks" shouldn't know how to do that apparently. grin

The other driver had a honda fake suv wannabe thing. My tow ball ripped the guts out of his engine and left it crying like collingwood supporter when they loose a match. He hit me at 80ks per hour and it had to be written off.

TheFallenNinja Sun 28-Apr-13 08:16:27

I wanted to have a debate.

No, you didn't. You just wanted to pretend that you are clever by taking a tired, boring position on a topic that does more rounds than an Eagles comeback tour.

Don't you have another, more constructive outlet for this clearly misplaced genius?

Sparklingbrook Sun 28-Apr-13 08:59:35

Do you think it depends where you live as to what motorbike riding style you see? My driving is mainly country lanes with trips into smallish towns. Someone who drives round cities regularly will see a different style as with Motorways?

If the OP wanted a debate, they have had one, the thread has run since Friday evening.

msrisotto Sun 28-Apr-13 09:00:12

I'm not jealous that motorbikes can filter, it's when they do it in fast (I.e. not crawling) moving traffic that it posses me off because it is bloody dangerous! They filter into your safe distance between you and the car in front. I know cars often do this too but it doesn't make it right and motorbike riders are so much more vulnerable.

I have once seen a group of Harley riders driving at the speed limit. It was so unusual that my husband and I both mentioned it at the time and I remember it now. Other than that, my general opinion is that motorcyclists that I have come across speed. I think the reason that people think they come out of nowhere is a combination of their faster acceleration speed and the fact that they filter (read - cut in between cars where there isn't a safe space.)

Sparklingbrook Sun 28-Apr-13 09:06:39

I think the notion of being jealous of the filtering is bonkers TBH msrisotto. I don't tend to be jealous of other road users. grin

GoombayDanceBand Sun 28-Apr-13 10:39:52

I get a bit jealous when I'm in a traffic jam, and I see bikes going past. But it doesn't make me hate the people on them.

What makes me angry with people is when they act like twats and put their lives in danger at my expense iyswim.

I consider myself a careful driver but if someone tries to make me hurt them, it makes me very angry.

GoshAnneGorilla Sun 28-Apr-13 11:57:18

Fallen - how on earth is starting a thread in AIBU "pretending I'm clever"?

being on a bike is the most incredible experience - you feel so free. the power throbbing between your legs (snort), the execution of a perfect corner, the burst of speed so fast it takes your breath away, the pleasure of seeing a winding road stretching into the distance, the whine of the engine just before you change up, the camaraderie of nodding to other bikers who are enjoying exactly the same thing on a cool, sunny day. it's like nothing else exists except you, your bike and the road. nothing else comes close.

<ideal world.>

Sparklingbrook Sun 28-Apr-13 16:59:29

Yes claude but lots of things exist-that's the problem. grin

I see where you are coming from my Dad used to say the same. He used to go out and 6am in the morning on a Sunday though-fair weather/non rush hour biker. grin

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